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| number80 | ping dirk toabctl IgorYozhikov number80 jruzicka jpena aplanas | 12:59 |
|---|---|---|
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| IgorYozhikov | o/ | 12:59 |
| number80 | #startmeeting rpm_packaging | 12:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Sep 22 12:59:49 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is number80. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 12:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 12:59 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: rpm_packaging)" | 12:59 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rpm_packaging' | 12:59 |
| number80 | #topic roll call | 12:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: rpm_packaging)" | 12:59 | |
| number80 | #chair IgorYozhikov | 13:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: IgorYozhikov number80 | 13:00 |
| dirk | o/ | 13:00 |
| dirk | hey | 13:00 |
| number80 | #chair dirk | 13:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: IgorYozhikov dirk number80 | 13:00 |
| jruzicka | o/ | 13:00 |
| number80 | #chair jruzicka | 13:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: IgorYozhikov dirk jruzicka number80 | 13:00 |
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| number80 | let's wait few more minutes | 13:00 |
| IgorYozhikov | ok | 13:00 |
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| jpena | o/ | 13:01 |
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| number80 | #chair jpena | 13:02 |
| openstack | Current chairs: IgorYozhikov dirk jpena jruzicka number80 | 13:02 |
| number80 | I guess we can't expect more guests | 13:03 |
| number80 | #topic welcome newcomers | 13:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "welcome newcomers (Meeting topic: rpm_packaging)" | 13:03 | |
| number80 | as you saw this morning, we have two new contributors, Tony Xu and linbing | 13:03 |
| number80 | does anyone of you know them? | 13:03 |
| dirk | I would assume they're sleeping by now :) | 13:04 |
| number80 | Well, I think it would be nice if someone could contact them and mentor them | 13:04 |
| number80 | especially as they're in a very different tz as most of us | 13:05 |
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| IgorYozhikov | number80, yes I also saw | 13:05 |
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| number80 | #action number80 send them a welcome email | 13:05 |
| IgorYozhikov | they uploaded a lot | 13:05 |
| number80 | #topic Design Summit fishbowl follow-up | 13:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Design Summit fishbowl follow-up (Meeting topic: rpm_packaging)" | 13:06 | |
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| dirk | number80: nice idea | 13:06 |
| number80 | yes, I'm happy that new folks showed up :) | 13:07 |
| number80 | not much change from last week, so I put a (incomplete) proposal for goals | 13:07 |
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| number80 | as not everyone will be at Barcelona Summit, I'd like people to give more thoughts about these goals | 13:08 |
| dirk | thats actually a good topic | 13:08 |
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| dirk | I would like to vote the existing 3rd party gates as voting | 13:08 |
| dirk | even before the summit | 13:08 |
| dirk | because last week we merged something that broke the suse ci (probably by accident=) | 13:08 |
| number80 | dirk: that's fine with me | 13:08 |
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| dirk | and since we're always testing everything, every other review is currently listed as failed | 13:08 |
| number80 | dirk: let's start by a formal thread on the list, and ask for a vote during next week meeting? | 13:09 |
| number80 | but I agree that if we can, let's do it asap | 13:09 |
| dirk | works for me | 13:09 |
| dirk | well, its just asking the infra guys to set the flag | 13:09 |
| dirk | I guess as a PTL you can just ask :) | 13:10 |
| IgorYozhikov | dirk, why not, we spoke about voting more then half year ago | 13:10 |
| number80 | #action number80 RFC on list to promote third-party CI as voting gates + schedule vote for next week meeting | 13:10 |
| number80 | IgorYozhikov: I'd like to give time to your MOS CI teammates to participate in the discussion too | 13:10 |
| number80 | but I'm +2 to promote both MOS and SUSE CI | 13:11 |
| IgorYozhikov | number80, me to | 13:11 |
| IgorYozhikov | there were not so much issues related to misconfiguration | 13:11 |
| IgorYozhikov | so let's make them voting | 13:11 |
| number80 | excellent | 13:12 |
| number80 | anything else about goals? | 13:12 |
| IgorYozhikov | I need to speak with zigo about possibility of co-session | 13:12 |
| number80 | IgorYozhikov: zigo_ answered dirk's email and he said he preferred a separate fishbowl for debian packaging | 13:13 |
| number80 | but he'll join us for our fishbowl | 13:13 |
| IgorYozhikov | o i c | 13:13 |
| IgorYozhikov | number80, thanx | 13:13 |
| number80 | what do you think about the minimal cloud goal? | 13:13 |
| number80 | I'd like to focus on small set of services so that we iron out tooling issues | 13:14 |
| IgorYozhikov | number80, r u about to do packages for core components? | 13:14 |
| IgorYozhikov | plus horizon | 13:14 |
| number80 | IgorYozhikov: I think that we need a proof of concept, because we may hit limitations in renderspec | 13:15 |
| IgorYozhikov | nova glance cinder neutron keystone horizon | 13:15 |
| number80 | IgorYozhikov: ack | 13:15 |
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| dirk | not sure if you guys saw it, but the sessions are scheduled | 13:15 |
| IgorYozhikov | dirk, already? | 13:15 |
| dirk | deb and rpm packaging fishbowl is thursday late afternoon | 13:15 |
| IgorYozhikov | nope, will check | 13:15 |
| astsmtl | Why can't we try to set it for Newton? | 13:16 |
| dirk | and our work sessions are friday morning | 13:16 |
| number80 | astsmtl: minimal cloud? it's quite late | 13:16 |
| astsmtl | We can try, and if there is not enough time we will move it to next release. | 13:17 |
| IgorYozhikov | number80, will this minimal cloud have a some kind of deployment test? | 13:17 |
| IgorYozhikov | just not only core packages | 13:17 |
| IgorYozhikov | might be AIO node? | 13:17 |
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| number80 | IgorYozhikov: yes, but if we managed to deploy AIO using our packages, multi-node shouldn't be hard | 13:18 |
| IgorYozhikov | yep | 13:18 |
| IgorYozhikov | long term - single -> multi -> ha | 13:19 |
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| number80 | *nods* | 13:19 |
| number80 | #topic stable/newton branch | 13:19 |
| IgorYozhikov | not it became more || less clear 4 me | 13:19 |
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| number80 | thank you dirk for adding the topic | 13:19 |
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| dirk | so I was trying to get everything merged now for cutting stable/newton branch | 13:19 |
| dirk | is there anything that we still want to get in? | 13:19 |
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| dirk | otherwise I'd say after the django_openstack_auth fix is in we're branching and then open up for merging all the new stuff that is post-newton | 13:20 |
| number80 | I'd like to have https://review.openstack.org/#/c/343335/ too if possible | 13:20 |
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| number80 | dirk: btw, could you explain me how branching is done? | 13:21 |
| IgorYozhikov | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/374679/ ? | 13:21 |
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| dirk | number80: sure | 13:22 |
| number80 | IgorYozhikov: non-essential for newton, but we can backport | 13:22 |
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| dirk | number80: we can do that right after the meeting | 13:22 |
| number80 | dirk: ack | 13:22 |
| number80 | anything else on that topic? | 13:22 |
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| IgorYozhikov | no from my side | 13:23 |
| number80 | then, we can move to reviews | 13:24 |
| number80 | #topic packages reviews | 13:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "packages reviews (Meeting topic: rpm_packaging)" | 13:24 | |
| number80 | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/rpm-packaging+status:open | 13:24 |
| jpena | we've got a lot of them now :) | 13:24 |
| IgorYozhikov | I looked through a couple or them | 13:25 |
| number80 | Yeah, but except the ones mentioned above, they won't be in newton cut :) | 13:25 |
| jpena | fair enough | 13:25 |
| dirk | yep | 13:26 |
| jpena | should we abandon the duplicated ones? | 13:26 |
| number80 | jpena: yes, I'm finishing it right now | 13:26 |
| number80 | Yes, let's have our newcomers focusing on the ones | 13:27 |
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| dirk | I was postponing that review for master until we cut newton | 13:27 |
| dirk | so let me suggest one thing: we finish those two reviews | 13:27 |
| IgorYozhikov | also it will be good if they will come to our irc | 13:27 |
| dirk | branch | 13:27 |
| dirk | and then go forward | 13:27 |
| number80 | dirk: wfm | 13:27 |
| IgorYozhikov | ++ | 13:28 |
| IgorYozhikov | after branching anything required could be cherry-picked || back-ported | 13:28 |
| IgorYozhikov | to stable/newton | 13:28 |
| number80 | *nods* | 13:29 |
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| jruzicka | sound good to me | 13:30 |
| IgorYozhikov | astsmtl, please check our CI readiness for branching | 13:30 |
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| IgorYozhikov | number80, dirk, and here I have a question | 13:31 |
| number80 | go ahead | 13:32 |
| IgorYozhikov | if we are going to cut new branches - will be correct to use same dependencies for current young master and releasing stable/newton | 13:32 |
| IgorYozhikov | or not | 13:32 |
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| number80 | considering that g-r has already changed between master and stable/newton, we'll shortly update our local copy too | 13:33 |
| dirk | yeah | 13:33 |
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| dirk | I am undecided on that a bit | 13:33 |
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| dirk | I am tempted to swtich to requirements/ version and not have copy | 13:33 |
| IgorYozhikov | I'm asking from perspective of packages set as Requires: | 13:34 |
| astsmtl | Are we supposed to rebuild all packages on CI right after branching? | 13:34 |
| number80 | dirk: that'd be better indeed | 13:34 |
| astsmtl | Or we are going to bump release with CR's? | 13:34 |
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| number80 | dirk: what do you think about embedding distro overrides files instead and just clone requirements as-is? | 13:35 |
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| number80 | astsmtl: I'd recommend that, but you can just fork current repo with existing rpms | 13:35 |
| number80 | repo = binary rpms repo I mean | 13:36 |
| astsmtl | You recommend rebuild without CR's, right? | 13:36 |
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| number80 | no release bump between master and newton AFAIK | 13:37 |
| IgorYozhikov | number80, just rebuild to separate binary repo || just regenerate from master, right? | 13:38 |
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| number80 | i'd say opention 1. | 13:39 |
| IgorYozhikov | ok :) | 13:39 |
| number80 | let's move to next topic | 13:40 |
| dirk | number80: I am not sure what you mean by distro overrides? | 13:40 |
| number80 | dirk: well, we overrides few stuff in upstream g-r like pytz | 13:40 |
| number80 | RHEL7 has an older pytz than in g-r but with backports | 13:41 |
| number80 | so we override this by providing a separate requirements file | 13:41 |
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| dirk | number80: ah, I see | 13:43 |
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| IgorYozhikov | number80, and that is why in rh packages *reqs.txt are deleted during build stage? | 13:43 |
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| dirk | number80: do we have already a merge capability in renderspec? | 13:43 |
| IgorYozhikov | I'm about package specs | 13:43 |
| dirk | e.g. add something like --requirements $foo --requirements $vendor-foo ? | 13:43 |
| number80 | IgorYozhikov: yes, but it's partial answer, some requirements files have optional stuff and it breaks builds if we don't have them | 13:43 |
| number80 | dirk: yes, should be easier to maintain | 13:43 |
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| number80 | dirk: yes | 13:44 |
| number80 | I'm not 100% sure, it's by design, but the order matters when you pass requirements files | 13:44 |
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| dirk | number80: works for me actually | 13:46 |
| number80 | ack | 13:46 |
| dirk | the main reason I objected to that originally was because we couldn't control when stuff in requirements/ merges | 13:46 |
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| dirk | which could break our ci at arbitrary intervals | 13:46 |
| dirk | which is why I wanted to have a copy that we can test and then merge | 13:47 |
| number80 | that was the most sensible decision, we needed to get our CI maturing before adding more entropy | 13:47 |
| dirk | well, the funny part is that the fuel ci isn't using it :) | 13:48 |
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| number80 | Yep | 13:48 |
| number80 | (/me suggests to move to the next topics before we run out of time) | 13:49 |
| number80 | I'm skipping pymod2pkg as there's no review | 13:49 |
| number80 | #topic renderspec reviews | 13:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "renderspec reviews (Meeting topic: rpm_packaging)" | 13:49 | |
| number80 | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/renderspec+status:open | 13:49 |
| jpena | here, I'd like to hear the Mirantis opinion on https://review.openstack.org/370906 | 13:49 |
| number80 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/368262/1 is no brainer | 13:49 |
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| jpena | I see it's merged now, and my plan was to add the block to every spec file, so we can fix the requirement issues in RDO builds | 13:50 |
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| jruzicka | yay | 13:50 |
| jpena | when discussing it with jruzicka, he mentioned that if that's an issue we can have a 3rd flavor (suse,fedora,mos) | 13:51 |
| number80 | jpena: most MOS packages respect this pattern too | 13:51 |
| jpena | number80: ack then, just wanted to be on the safe side | 13:51 |
| number80 | but yes, having a mos flavor is always an option | 13:51 |
| number80 | IgorYozhikov: ^ | 13:52 |
| astsmtl | TBH, I don't understand the need to remove requirements.txt. Only pip performs automatic installation of dependepncies. | 13:52 |
| jruzicka | yup let's keep it together until explicit reason to split emerges | 13:52 |
| jruzicka | astsmtl, due to magicks of pbr, the requirements are passed as install_requires | 13:52 |
| number80 | astsmtl: if you keep it around, pbr will try to install whatever is in requirements even optional stuff or update versions if package version is lower | 13:52 |
| astsmtl | (Also pbr can be installed automatically, but it's a strong requirement anyway.) | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | jpena, use 1 #!/usr/bin/python | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 2 # This script is used for additional checks for versions of dependencies. | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 3 | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 4 import sys | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 5 from pkg_resources import require | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 6 | 13:53 |
| jruzicka | which means that the app will refuse to launch because arbitrary version comparision fails | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 7 | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 8 def test_check_requirements_conflicts(req): | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 9 try: | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 10 require(req) | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 11 except Exception as e: | 13:53 |
| jruzicka | dude | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 12 print str(e) | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 13 exit(1) | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 14 | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | 15 test_check_requirements_conflicts(sys.argv[1]) | 13:53 |
| IgorYozhikov | if deletion of reqs.txt will not affect this test - looks fine | 13:53 |
| number80 | since koji has no internet access (a prerequisite for reproducible builds), builds will fail as pip can't download eggs from the internet | 13:53 |
| number80 | IgorYozhikov: it shouldn't fail | 13:54 |
| * dirk has to run | 13:54 | |
| astsmtl | jruzicka, number80 Never saw this. | 13:54 |
| jruzicka | astsmtl, IOW deleting reqs.txt stops version enforcing through python version | 13:54 |
| dirk | number80: I'll ping you in a bit regarding the branching | 13:54 |
| jruzicka | since that's package manager job, we disable it | 13:55 |
| IgorYozhikov | number80, we run this test in package post install stage | 13:55 |
| number80 | dirk: ack | 13:55 |
| number80 | astsmtl: that's very common issue in python packaging for Fedora/CentOS and friends | 13:55 |
| IgorYozhikov | and test shows us if something went wrong from perspective of python | 13:55 |
| astsmtl | Version enforcing is another case, and here you can remove requirements.txt but you can also patch it. | 13:55 |
| number80 | ack | 13:55 |
| jruzicka | out of time | 13:55 |
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| number80 | astsmtl: patching it is a possibility, but it has drawbacks too | 13:56 |
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| jruzicka | its redundant | 13:56 |
| astsmtl | number80, just try to python setup.py {build,install} anything where there are missing dependencies. Nothing is downloaded. | 13:57 |
| number80 | but as jruzicka pointed out, let's move the discussion to the usual channel | 13:57 |
| jruzicka | we already have dependency management in our package manager | 13:57 |
| number80 | astsmtl: I have failed builds in koji that says the contrary | 13:57 |
| astsmtl | Please, show me. | 13:57 |
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| jruzicka | you can tell pbr not to download anything | 13:57 |
| jruzicka | but the version enforcing still continues | 13:58 |
| number80 | jruzicka: interesting | 13:58 |
| number80 | astsmtl: can we continue the discussion on the list? | 13:58 |
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| astsmtl | Ofc. | 13:58 |
| number80 | we're running out of time | 13:58 |
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| number80 | thank you for attending, and see you next week (or in the channel) | 13:59 |
| number80 | #endmeeting | 13:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 13:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Sep 22 13:59:22 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 13:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rpm_packaging/2016/rpm_packaging.2016-09-22-12.59.html | 13:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rpm_packaging/2016/rpm_packaging.2016-09-22-12.59.txt | 13:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rpm_packaging/2016/rpm_packaging.2016-09-22-12.59.log.html | 13:59 |
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| slashme | #startmeeting freezer | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Sep 22 14:00:27 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is slashme. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: freezer)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'freezer' | 14:00 |
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| szaher | Hi slashme | 14:00 |
| yangyape_ | hello slashme | 14:00 |
| szaher | \o/ | 14:00 |
| slashme | Hi everyone :) | 14:01 |
| szaher | \m/ | 14:01 |
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| slashme | Let's wait a few minutes to see if anyone else is connecting | 14:01 |
| slashme | As usual, recap and agenda is available here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/freezer_meetings | 14:01 |
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| zhusz | Hi, slashme | 14:02 |
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| yangyape_ | hi zhusz | 14:02 |
| timothyb89 | hi all | 14:03 |
| zhusz | Hi yangpeng | 14:03 |
| slashme | Hi zhusz and timothyb89 | 14:03 |
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| domhnallw | o/ | 14:04 |
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| slashme | Okay, lets start. | 14:07 |
| ddieterly | hi | 14:07 |
| slashme | The agenda is pretty empty today. | 14:07 |
| slashme | hi ddieterly | 14:07 |
| ddieterly | hi slashme | 14:07 |
| slashme | #topic barcelona design sessions | 14:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "barcelona design sessions (Meeting topic: freezer)" | 14:07 | |
| slashme | We have two design sessions room at the summit this cycle | 14:08 |
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| slashme | If there is no modification, our slots should be on the Tuesday | 14:08 |
| yangyape_ | congratulations | 14:09 |
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| slashme | We have one fishbowl room :Big room, open to the public, can host aroun 50 people, perfect for broader topic and to gather opinions from the community. | 14:09 |
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| slashme | And one Working room: Smaller, that can host aroud 15 people. These are more intended for engineering discussions between developpers | 14:10 |
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| slashme | For now, we are completly open to ideas about what you thing should be discussed arounf Freezer at the summit. | 14:11 |
| slashme | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/freezer_meetings | 14:11 |
| slashme | Oops, wrong link | 14:11 |
| slashme | Here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/barcelona_summit_preparation | 14:11 |
| slashme | ddieterly and I will be at the summit. Is anyone else going ? | 14:12 |
| ddieterly | we'll have a great time | 14:12 |
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| zhusz | we seem have no more topic | 14:19 |
| slashme | zhusz: Indeed | 14:19 |
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| slashme | Is there anything that someone would like to discuss ? | 14:20 |
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| ddieterly | not from my end | 14:23 |
| ddieterly | currrently working on cassandra schema for monasca | 14:23 |
| ddieterly | the cassandra knowledge will transfer nicely to dedup in freezer | 14:24 |
| slashme | Interesting :) | 14:24 |
| zhusz | Will freezer-scheduler be deprecated next release? | 14:26 |
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| slashme | No | 14:28 |
| slashme | The only thing we deprecate is the command line | 14:28 |
| slashme | So basicaly : | 14:28 |
| yangyape_ | apiclient to python-freezerclient | 14:28 |
| slashme | You will be able to do : freezer-scheduler [start/stop/status] | 14:28 |
| slashme | and all other operation should be done through the "freezer" cli | 14:29 |
| slashme | from python-freezerclient | 14:29 |
| yangyape_ | guys if you have time please review freezerclient devstack https://review.openstack.org/#/c/367251/ | 14:29 |
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| zhusz | Ok. I see. | 14:32 |
| zhusz | scheduler issue: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/368082/ | 14:33 |
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| zhusz | freezer-scheduler stop/status is not available when the log file is set in config file. | 14:35 |
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| zhusz | Because the log info was written to /tmp/freezer-scheduler.pid file. | 14:36 |
| zhusz | I'll provide a patch for this issue. | 14:36 |
| zhusz | yapeng, I'm checking your patch. | 14:38 |
| yangyape_ | cli freezer-scheduler --log-file ti is ok, but have a config to scheduler.conf is it unavaible? | 14:38 |
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| yangyape_ | zhusz: :) it is very good to have a patch. | 14:39 |
| zhusz | yapeng: Yes. | 14:42 |
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| slashme | Thank you for the patch zhusz | 14:44 |
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| slashme | Okay, That's all for today | 14:59 |
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| slashme | #endmeeting | 14:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Sep 22 14:59:13 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/freezer/2016/freezer.2016-09-22-14.00.html | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/freezer/2016/freezer.2016-09-22-14.00.txt | 14:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/freezer/2016/freezer.2016-09-22-14.00.log.html | 14:59 |
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| * slashme waves at Manilla Folks. Have a good meeting. | 14:59 | |
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| bswartz | lol | 14:59 |
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| * bswartz waves at slashme | 15:00 | |
| bswartz | #startmeeting manila | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Sep 22 15:00:15 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is bswartz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'manila' | 15:00 |
| bswartz | hello all | 15:00 |
| gouthamr | hello o/ | 15:00 |
| cknight | Hi | 15:00 |
| ganso | hello | 15:00 |
| vponomaryov | Hello | 15:00 |
| tovchinnikova | \\// | 15:00 |
| tbarron | hi | 15:00 |
| jseiler_ | hi | 15:00 |
| aovchinnikov | hi | 15:00 |
| dustins | hey-o | 15:00 |
| dustins | \o | 15:00 |
| zhonghua | hello | 15:00 |
| markstur_ | hi | 15:00 |
| bswartz | #agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Manila/Meetings | 15:00 |
| zhongjun_ | hi | 15:00 |
| bswartz | #topic Specs process | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs process (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:01 | |
| bswartz | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/374883 | 15:01 |
| bswartz | I had hoped to have the above proposal ready earlier in the week so you all would have have time to review it before today | 15:02 |
| xyang2 | hi | 15:02 |
| bswartz | however various debugging took all my time and I didn't get to write it until this morning | 15:02 |
| bswartz | so I don't expect anyone to have read it yet | 15:02 |
| gouthamr | you'll be surprised :) | 15:03 |
| bswartz | the proposal is based on conversations I've had with the core reviewer team | 15:03 |
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| cknight | gouthamr: +1 | 15:03 |
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| bswartz | people should provide feedback using gerrit, but I'll briefly outline what the proposal is | 15:04 |
| bswartz | we introduced specs in newton, but didn't have any process around them, and ultimately they were not too valuable | 15:04 |
| bswartz | also during newton the team got overloaded with too much new stuff and we failed to focus on the important stuff until it was too late | 15:04 |
| bswartz | so I'm trying to fix that for future releases, and that document outlines my plan | 15:05 |
| mkoderer | hello | 15:05 |
| bswartz | In particular I regret all of the time that was spent on features which didn't get much/any review attention | 15:06 |
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| bswartz | in particular, the snapshot semantics stuff from tpsilva/cknight, the share backup proposal from zhongjun_, and the driver-private-share-data API from xyang, amoung others | 15:07 |
| vponomaryov | user messages? | 15:07 |
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| bswartz | vponomaryov: yeah that was another failure | 15:08 |
| bswartz | I should also mention that while I'd like to start a new process for Ocata and later, the Ocata release will be special due to how short it is | 15:08 |
| bswartz | so this proposal will probably benefit us more for Pike/Queens/R... | 15:09 |
| vkmc | o/ | 15:09 |
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| bswartz | anyways please provide feedback on the proposal through gerrit and if we need to discuss it more next week we can | 15:11 |
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| bswartz | any questions before we move on? | 15:11 |
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| bswartz | #topic Ocata Design Summit | 15:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Ocata Design Summit (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:11 | |
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| bswartz | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/manila-ocata-design-summit-topics | 15:12 |
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| bswartz | So I created this etherpad last week, and nobody has proposed anything yet | 15:12 |
| bswartz | Because of the shortness of the Ocata release, my personal preference is to focus on retiring technical debt | 15:12 |
| bswartz | however due to the failures of the Newton release we have a substantial number of "almost done" features which may be worth of consideration | 15:13 |
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| bswartz | for the design summit, we have 2 fishbowls and 4 working sessions, same as Austin | 15:14 |
| bswartz | there are more conflicts with Cinder than ever before though | 15:15 |
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| ganso | bswartz: has the sessions schedule been published? | 15:15 |
| bswartz | I know ttx tried to avoid conflicts, but the schedule is getting more complex | 15:15 |
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| bswartz | ganso: drafts have gone out -- I'm not sure if a public announcement has been made | 15:16 |
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| tbarron | ganso: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TQ-RSlbiBBEclkonIbfUP7R1ExZSJylF1uiEKV2G_Cw/pubhtml?gid=1107826458&single=true | 15:18 |
| bswartz | anyways, if you have a topic you really want to discuss in Barcelona, please get it up on etherpad so we can start voting next week | 15:19 |
| ganso | tbarron: thanks! | 15:19 |
| bswartz | tbarron: ty | 15:19 |
| xyang2 | bswartz: for new drivers, do we still have the same deadline? merge date is Ocata-3? when does the driver need to be submitted? | 15:20 |
| bswartz | xyang2: that's a good question | 15:20 |
| bswartz | #topic new driver deadline | 15:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "new driver deadline (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:20 | |
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| bswartz | xyang2: I think we should avoid deciding on the specific deadline until after we agree on our specs process/deadlines | 15:21 |
| xyang2 | ok | 15:21 |
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| bswartz | however I'd be in favor of keeping it more or less the same -- maybe a bit earlier for Ocata just because of the short release | 15:21 |
| xyang2 | bswartz: I got questions on that because we do have a new driver coming in Ocata | 15:22 |
| bswartz | #link https://releases.openstack.org/ocata/schedule.html | 15:22 |
| bswartz | so if we were to keep the deadline at feature freeze minus 3 weeks, that would put us at Jan 02 | 15:23 |
| bswartz | and due to holidays, those last 3 weeks are going to be a mess | 15:23 |
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| xyang2 | bswartz: ok, thanks | 15:24 |
| bswartz | I need to find out when holidays fall this year and who will be affected when | 15:24 |
| bswartz | possibly we can keep it the same, or possibly we might want new drivers before christmas, to account for the holiday time for reviewers | 15:25 |
| vponomaryov | bswartz: +1 before christmas | 15:25 |
| zhongjun_ | Is there still have FFE? | 15:25 |
| markstur_ | vponomaryov, which christmas? | 15:25 |
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| vponomaryov | markstur_: the erliest | 15:26 |
| vponomaryov | )) | 15:26 |
| bswartz | when is orthodox christmas this year? | 15:26 |
| bswartz | does it move around like the chinese new year does? | 15:26 |
| ganso | bswartz: Thursday, January 7 | 15:26 |
| ganso | bswartz: ^ according to google | 15:26 |
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| bswartz | looks like chinese new year is kind enough to fall after feature freeze this year | 15:27 |
| ganso | bswartz: wait, maybe it should be 2017 | 15:27 |
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| ganso | bswartz: scratch that, should be Saturday, January 7 | 15:27 |
| xyang2 | bswartz: right around that time | 15:28 |
| bswartz | xyang2: how do you feel about making the deadline feature freeze minus 5 weeks? | 15:28 |
| ganso | bswartz: according to google, chinese new year isSaturday, January 28 | 15:28 |
| bswartz | that would put us at Dec 19 -- before the holidays in the US | 15:28 |
| xyang2 | bswartz: fine with me. I'd like it earlier | 15:28 |
| bswartz | earlier than Dec 19? | 15:29 |
| xyang2 | bswartz: Dec 19 is good | 15:29 |
| bswartz | anyone opposed? | 15:29 |
| bswartz | #agreed driver proposal deadline Dec 19 | 15:30 |
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| bswartz | after we figure out the specs deadline stuff I'll send out a ML announcement with all the dates | 15:30 |
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| bswartz | and we can also push a change to the schedule repo so people can find the deadlines using google (I've gotten complaints that the ML posts are hard to google) | 15:31 |
| bswartz | #topic open discussion | 15:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:31 | |
| xyang2 | bswartz: you don't have problem with a CoprHD Manila driver, right? It's already in Cinder | 15:31 |
| ganso | my vacation starts on Monday September 26th and I return on October 15th. I will try to show up in the weekly meetings whenever possible. | 15:31 |
| bswartz | ganso: enjoy your vacation! | 15:32 |
| bswartz | it's a great time to take off, as long as no critical bugs pop up before release | 15:32 |
| dustins | I got an email from the docs folks asking for volunteers for testing the Installation Documentation for Manila | 15:32 |
| ganso | bswartz: thanks | 15:32 |
| bswartz | dustins: we've had people in the channel who couldn't get it to work | 15:33 |
| bswartz | are they the testers or is the request for testing coming because they can't get it to work? | 15:33 |
| gouthamr | dustins: yay | 15:33 |
| tbarron | we need some admin-oriented doc for lvm driver :) | 15:33 |
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| dustins | Yeah, they're coming down on the projects and asking folks to have a good look at all docs, but especially the Installation Doc | 15:33 |
| bswartz | tbarron: is it not in the config guide yet? | 15:33 |
| gouthamr | dustins: i was hoping to do the reverse.. ask if we can get volunteers to test it.. | 15:33 |
| dustins | They're asking projects to check the documentation for their respective projects | 15:34 |
| * tbarron checks, maybe his info is stale | 15:34 | |
| bswartz | yes this is a good time to update all the config ref docs for the stuff that changed in newton | 15:34 |
| * dustins still gets the docs liaison emails | 15:34 | |
| gouthamr | dustins: but needed this update to merge https://review.openstack.org/#/c/359491/ | 15:34 |
| gouthamr | #plug: ^ please review | 15:34 |
| bswartz | and to review the docs in general for accuracy | 15:34 |
| dustins | Yes, all of that needs to happen | 15:35 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: should be #shamelessplug lol | 15:35 |
| dustins | I know there's a lot, we're all super busy with our own things, but it really needs to be done | 15:35 |
| gouthamr | :P | 15:35 |
| dustins | Just to save ourselves from heartbreak and headache in the future | 15:35 |
| markstur_ | gouthamr changes his name to shameless | 15:36 |
| gouthamr | now's a good time for a docblitz | 15:36 |
| gouthamr | markstur_: lol.. | 15:36 |
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| bswartz | alright anything else? | 15:37 |
| tbarron | i'll pull shameless's patch and re-read to see if my concerns are addressed. I was concerned that we keep pointinig newbies to the generic driver, like sending red ridiing hood into the woods. | 15:37 |
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| markstur_ | lol | 15:37 |
| bswartz | I think we're done early | 15:37 |
| dustins | I might make an etherpad with all of the docs we have and then call for volunteers | 15:37 |
| vkmc | yes! I wanted to get your feedback wrt some feature that has been in my mind | 15:37 |
| bswartz | vkmc: like what? | 15:37 |
| vkmc | considering I'm just giving my first steps on Manila, I'd appreciate your comments | 15:37 |
| gouthamr | dustins: shameless +1 | 15:37 |
| vkmc | so... this started with a bug in the ui | 15:38 |
| gouthamr | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/372805/ | 15:38 |
| vkmc | basically we are displaying all protocols on the create share modal without checking if it's deployed in the control plane | 15:38 |
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| vkmc | from there, I noticed that there is no direct way to get which protocols are enabled | 15:39 |
| bswartz | I've heard this complaint before | 15:39 |
| vkmc | we have a setting in manila.conf, but that's it | 15:39 |
| vkmc | so... for now I proposed a workaround for this from the ui side | 15:39 |
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| vkmc | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/372805/ | 15:39 |
| bswartz | we need a new API to expose the list, and the question is what that should look like | 15:39 |
| vkmc | but I was thinking this should be better fixed by implementing a capabilities endpoint for Manila | 15:40 |
| vkmc | as we have in other projects | 15:40 |
| vkmc | yeah | 15:40 |
| bswartz | it probably makes sense for it to be a per-share-type thing | 15:40 |
| gouthamr | any reason we can't use scheduler-stats | 15:40 |
| gouthamr | ? | 15:40 |
| bswartz | -1 for capabilities endpoint | 15:40 |
| gouthamr | it gives you a list of pool capabilities | 15:40 |
| vkmc | I could work on a spec for it, and later discuss it... but preferred to get your input on if this is a good idea or not | 15:40 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: admin only | 15:40 |
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| vkmc | bswartz, why the -1 for capabilities endpoint? | 15:41 |
| bswartz | vkmc: in Manila we expose such things on the share types | 15:41 |
| bswartz | so the logical approach would be for each share type to have a list of supported protocols | 15:41 |
| xyang2 | vkmc, bswartz: this is similar to this one in cinder: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/+spec/discovering-system-capabilities | 15:41 |
| bswartz | however, doing do in a way that's backwards compatible could be tough | 15:41 |
| gouthamr | xyang2: +1 | 15:42 |
| vkmc | xyang2, yeah, exactly what I was looking :) | 15:42 |
| vkmc | bswartz, I see... yeah | 15:42 |
| tbarron | vkmc: one question is whether the approach taken in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/372805/ would be acceptable as a short-term fix (before you add unit tests, etc.) - though of course we'd work on an API longer term | 15:42 |
| vkmc | indeed, thanks tbarron | 15:42 |
| bswartz | xyang2: I haven't followed that discussion in cinder, but I definitely have my opinions | 15:42 |
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| tbarron | vkmc: as customers need a fix real soon, and we might have a bit of discussion on the right way to go for ocata, or for pike, or ..;\ | 15:43 |
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| xyang2 | vkmc: bswartz: the patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/350310/ is on hold to get some cross project consensus on the api | 15:43 |
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| tbarron | xyang2: exactly | 15:43 |
| tbarron | I think we may need a near term and a medium term approach unless the medium term solution can be accelearated | 15:44 |
| gouthamr | the author proposed to write a spec on the API-WG.. | 15:44 |
| bswartz | xyang2: cinder created a real mess when they added a whole new feature which was "turned off" by default | 15:44 |
| tbarron | accelerated | 15:44 |
| vkmc | yeah... if we probably want to check how this turns out to be for Cinder | 15:44 |
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| xyang2 | bswartz: blame cinder for everything:) | 15:44 |
| bswartz | xyang2: cinder is an easy target :-) | 15:44 |
| xyang2 | :) | 15:44 |
| gouthamr | karate chops with cinder blocks | 15:45 |
| cknight | xyang2: not blame, just learn from them what works and what fails miserably | 15:45 |
| vkmc | haha gouthamr++ | 15:45 |
| ganso | gouthamr: it is super effective! :P | 15:45 |
| xyang2 | cknight: that's ok. cinder in turn blames nova:) | 15:45 |
| vkmc | something like... "what would Cinder do?" driven development | 15:45 |
| markstur_ | new topic? cinder bashing | 15:45 |
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| dustins | cknight: Yes, learn from what worked and what did not, let's not throw our block storage buddies under the bus | 15:45 |
| cknight | xyang2: :-) exactly | 15:45 |
| bswartz | okay I think that's sufficient cinder bashing | 15:46 |
| bswartz | vkmc: we do need a spec for this | 15:46 |
| vkmc | ok, so... would you like me to work on some spec... | 15:46 |
| vkmc | I was going to say that | 15:46 |
| vkmc | :D | 15:46 |
| gouthamr | vkmc: +1 | 15:46 |
| bswartz | again my preference is for something akin to our share-type public extra specs | 15:46 |
| vkmc | and we can later discuss it next meeting (or another... as we see fit... we have other priorities now for sure :) | 15:47 |
| bswartz | however backwards compatibility will be hard | 15:47 |
| vkmc | yeah :/ that's my main concern bswartz | 15:47 |
| bswartz | also there will be upgrade issues | 15:47 |
| tbarron | bswartz: vkmc it would be good for people to look at the existing review to see if it's DOA or whether a short-term fix is OK too | 15:47 |
| bswartz | when you upgrade from newton to ocata, how will manila figure out what protocols to enable for each share type | 15:48 |
| bswartz | ? | 15:48 |
| vponomaryov | protocols are enabled via config and it will not be changed | 15:48 |
| tbarron | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/372805/ | 15:48 |
| gouthamr | i think we can deprecate the horizon config option safely.. | 15:48 |
| bswartz | vkmc: if you'll be in barcelona that would be a good design summit topic | 15:48 |
| vkmc | bswartz, I will be there yes, and I would like to discuss it then! | 15:49 |
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| bswartz | put something on the etherpad then | 15:49 |
| bswartz | anything else before we end the meeting? | 15:49 |
| zhongjun_ | I have one | 15:49 |
| vkmc | vponomaryov, agree, I'm proposing to add a way to retrieve which protocols are enabled | 15:49 |
| vkmc | bswartz, will do, thanks | 15:49 |
| zhongjun_ | Could you please pay attention to enable IPv6 feature? | 15:50 |
| zhongjun_ | link:http://osdir.com/ml/openstack-dev/2016-09/msg01487.html | 15:50 |
| zhongjun_ | spec link: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/362786/ | 15:50 |
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| zhongjun_ | Thanks all | 15:50 |
| gouthamr | zhongjun_: sure.. | 15:50 |
| bswartz | zhongjun_: yes I think ipv6 would be a good thing to focus on in ocata | 15:50 |
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| bswartz | it feels small enough to fix the small release yet will offer large value | 15:51 |
| cknight | zhongjun_: please add that to the etherpad | 15:51 |
| bswartz | zhongjun_: will you be in barcelona? | 15:51 |
| zhongjun_ | bswartz, cknight: ok, I will add it later | 15:51 |
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| bswartz | cknight: the etherpad is for summit topics -- we should omit stuff if key people can't attend | 15:51 |
| zhongjun_ | bswartz: I am not sure | 15:51 |
| bswartz | and cover those items in another venue | 15:51 |
| bswartz | okay, well if there's a chance you'll be there I suggest proposing it on the etherpad zhongjun_ | 15:52 |
| zhongjun_ | bswartz: ok | 15:53 |
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| bswartz | okay thanks everyone | 15:54 |
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| bswartz | talk to you next week | 15:54 |
| bswartz | #endmeeting | 15:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:54 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Sep 22 15:54:41 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:54 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2016/manila.2016-09-22-15.00.html | 15:54 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2016/manila.2016-09-22-15.00.txt | 15:54 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2016/manila.2016-09-22-15.00.log.html | 15:54 |
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| vkmc | thanks all o/ | 15:56 |
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| xarses | #startmeeting fuel | 16:00 |
| xarses | #chair xarses | 16:00 |
| xarses | Todays Agenda: | 16:00 |
| xarses | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/fuel-weekly-meeting-agenda | 16:00 |
| xarses | Who's here? | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Sep 22 16:00:10 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is xarses. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: fuel)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'fuel' | 16:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: xarses | 16:00 |
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| maximov_ | hi | 16:01 |
| ashtokolov | hi | 16:01 |
| ashtokolov | xarses: ping?) | 16:01 |
| xarses | =) | 16:02 |
| xarses | lets get going then | 16:02 |
| xarses | #topic Barcelona Design Summit track layout (ashtokolov) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TQ-RSlbiBBEclkonIbfUP7R1ExZSJylF1uiEKV2G_Cw/pubhtml?gid=1107826458&single=true) | 16:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Barcelona Design Summit track layout (ashtokolov) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TQ-RSlbiBBEclkonIbfUP7R1ExZSJylF1uiEKV2G_Cw/pubhtml?gid=1107826458&single=true) (Meeting topic: fuel)" | 16:02 | |
| ashtokolov | So folks, I would like to highlight that we have slot allocation | 16:02 |
| ashtokolov | Your suggestions about topics allocation are welcome! | 16:03 |
| ashtokolov | we have 2 fb | 16:03 |
| ashtokolov | and 4 workrooms | 16:03 |
| maximov_ | my suggestion is to discuss upgrades, what we need to implement in fuel to enable upgrades of fuel + plugins | 16:04 |
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| xarses | #topic Barcelona Deisgn Summit planning https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/fuel-ocata-summit-planning | 16:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Barcelona Deisgn Summit planning https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/fuel-ocata-summit-planning (Meeting topic: fuel)" | 16:04 | |
| maximov_ | and do how do want to integrate fuel with our upgrade scripts (octane | 16:04 |
| ashtokolov | Could you please leave your comments here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/fuel-ocata-summit-planning | 16:04 |
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| ashtokolov | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/fuel-ocata-summit-planning | 16:04 |
| maximov_ | sure | 16:04 |
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| ashtokolov | we will have very reduced representation | 16:05 |
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| ashtokolov | so we are going to involve tripleO guys into our discussions | 16:05 |
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| ashtokolov | kozhukalov: any thoughts around allocation? | 16:06 |
| ashtokolov | looks like he is afk | 16:07 |
| ashtokolov | let's move on? | 16:07 |
| maximov_ | yes | 16:07 |
| ashtokolov | #topic Barcelona Deisgn Summit planning https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/fuel-ocata-summit-planning | 16:08 |
| ashtokolov | oops) | 16:08 |
| xarses | I already switched it =) | 16:08 |
| ashtokolov | thanks! | 16:08 |
| ashtokolov | so I did some changes | 16:08 |
| ashtokolov | I've removed PAO discussion | 16:08 |
| ashtokolov | and added IaC | 16:09 |
| ashtokolov | any objections? | 16:09 |
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| ashtokolov | xarses: maximov_ kozhukalov ? | 16:09 |
| xarses | nope, we are probably missing some things to talk about | 16:10 |
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| xarses | I will see if I can remember any more | 16:10 |
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| ashtokolov | thank you so much | 16:11 |
| ashtokolov | folks, please feel free to add your ideas to this etherpad | 16:11 |
| ashtokolov | that's all from my side | 16:11 |
| ashtokolov | do we have any other topics for today? | 16:11 |
| xarses | #topic open discuss | 16:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discuss (Meeting topic: fuel)" | 16:12 | |
| xarses | if there isn't anything else, I'll close the meeting shortly | 16:12 |
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| ashtokolov | looks like all top contributors have a meeting right now | 16:12 |
| ashtokolov | so let's move all discussions to the next meeting | 16:13 |
| xarses | sounds good | 16:13 |
| ashtokolov | thank you guys! | 16:13 |
| xarses | #endmeeting | 16:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:13 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Sep 22 16:13:35 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:13 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/fuel/2016/fuel.2016-09-22-16.00.html | 16:13 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/fuel/2016/fuel.2016-09-22-16.00.txt | 16:13 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/fuel/2016/fuel.2016-09-22-16.00.log.html | 16:13 |
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| hyakuhei | #startmeeting Security | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Sep 22 17:00:08 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hyakuhei. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Security)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'security' | 17:00 |
| lhinds | o/ | 17:00 |
| sigmavirus | o/ | 17:00 |
| michaelxin | o/ | 17:00 |
| hyakuhei | o/ | 17:00 |
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| hyakuhei | #chair tmcpeak | 17:00 |
| elmiko | o/ | 17:00 |
| unrahul | o/ | 17:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: hyakuhei tmcpeak | 17:00 |
| tmcpeak | o/ | 17:00 |
| Daviey | \o | 17:00 |
| knangia | o/ | 17:00 |
| mdong | o/ | 17:00 |
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| ccneill | o/ | 17:01 |
| hyakuhei | Righto guys, as normal the agenda is over here #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/security-agenda | 17:01 |
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| vinaypotluri | o/ | 17:01 |
| browne | o/ | 17:01 |
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| tkelsey | o/ all | 17:02 |
| tmcpeak | packed meeting today :D | 17:02 |
| hyakuhei | Good turnout today... | 17:02 |
| hyakuhei | So I suppose we should level-set | 17:02 |
| tkelsey | lol | 17:02 |
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| lhinds | nice blog post hyakuhei (from my speed read) | 17:02 |
| hyakuhei | Most of the meeting today will be talking about the future of the Security Project | 17:02 |
| michaelxin | even elmiko is here | 17:02 |
| greenhorn | Adam here, just listening this round | 17:03 |
| hyakuhei | Which, as lhinds alluded to, I blogged about here #link https://openstack-security.github.io/organization/2016/09/22/maturing-the-security-project.html | 17:03 |
| dg____ | o/ | 17:03 |
| tmcpeak | welcome greenhorn | 17:03 |
| hyakuhei | Thanks for joining us greenhorn | 17:03 |
| greenhorn | you bet | 17:03 |
| Daviey | hyakuhei: great blog post, well outlined and reflective | 17:03 |
| * elmiko waves at michaelxin | 17:03 | |
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| hyakuhei | Thanks Daviey the truth is there are things we need to do better, this has been a welcome wakeup call in that regard | 17:04 |
| Daviey | +1 | 17:04 |
| hyakuhei | I think dhellmann might be joining us today? | 17:04 |
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| hyakuhei | ttx also may want to be involved | 17:04 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 17:05 |
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| elmiko | wow | 17:05 |
| hyakuhei | elmiko ? | 17:05 |
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| hyakuhei | #topic Future of the Security Project | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Future of the Security Project (Meeting topic: Security)" | 17:05 | |
| elmiko | oh, just emoting about the big-wigs getting involved ;) | 17:05 |
| hyakuhei | It's nice to matter ;) | 17:06 |
| elmiko | definitely | 17:06 |
| elmiko | i didn't think my pulling back would have such a big effect.... /s | 17:06 |
| hyakuhei | So yes, I missed the PTL election, for the second time. I had what most people would call a good reason but it was still a major screwup on my part and I hold my hand up to that | 17:06 |
| michaelxin | haha | 17:06 |
| tmcpeak | so for starters, is there anybody in here that wants to go to working group, and if so, why? | 17:06 |
| michaelxin | good blog | 17:06 |
| hyakuhei | It did however raise a bunch of issues beyond "why is there no PTL" | 17:06 |
| ccneill | like "what is a PTL, really?" | 17:07 |
| tmcpeak | including others that aren't OSSP members and want us to be a working group | 17:07 |
| ccneill | especially for our project | 17:07 |
| hyakuhei | Which lead me to look at a number of things I hadn't really been aware of (likely because I was grandfathered into PTL) like the project team guide | 17:07 |
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| dg____ | tmcpeak - it would be good to get some clarity from dhellman over 'what a working group is' and 'how is it different to a project team' | 17:07 |
| hyakuhei | dhellmann I'm not really sure where to take this conversation. Do you have time to take a look at my blog post ? | 17:07 |
| greenhorn | and possibly the risk of having one become a PTL by just volunteering from outside the project. if I thought about it, others might | 17:07 |
| hyakuhei | greenhorn You're absolutely right but I don't want to focus on the election | 17:08 |
| hyakuhei | That's not going to happen again | 17:08 |
| greenhorn | sure sure | 17:08 |
| sigmavirus | greenhorn: also you have to qualify to be PTL first | 17:08 |
| dhellmann | hyakuhei : I'm looking now, but let me also try to answer some of the questions | 17:08 |
| hyakuhei | of course. | 17:08 |
| dhellmann | first, it's very unlikely that someone who has not contributed at all to the team would be "appointed" to lead the team | 17:08 |
| sigmavirus | So it would be unlikely to be totally outside the project | 17:08 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I mean if you all decided to leave openstack entirely that would be a different story, but no one thinks that's what happened | 17:09 |
| dhellmann | and just to be completely clear, I have no preconceived notion of the best outcome here other than that we should help the team find what it thinks is the best outcome | 17:09 |
| dhellmann | so exploring the idea of a WG instead of a big tent team is just that, a discussion exploring it | 17:10 |
| hyakuhei | My position is that there are clearly things that we need to do to be better community members, I think I can guide us to that place and that's what I want to do. I think we should stay in the big tent, at least until we've done a good job of showing that we should work that way. | 17:10 |
| dhellmann | as to the difference, there are a couple of areas to talk about | 17:10 |
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| dhellmann | hyakuhei : great, I am happy to support you in that if that's what the team agrees to | 17:11 |
| michaelxin | Do we want to vote? | 17:11 |
| dhellmann | a working group is a less formal structure than a project team. membership in a working group does not automatically confer atc status, which means members don't automatically get to vote for tc just by participating in the wg | 17:11 |
| tmcpeak | michaelxin: +1 | 17:11 |
| lhinds | I also really believe we need no change, we know where we went wrong, but aside to that productivity and synergy in the group is great | 17:11 |
| Daviey | dhellmann: and less summit timetable? | 17:12 |
| dhellmann | if they have atc status from elsewhere (patches in another project, or extra-atc status from another project) that would give them voting rights in those project elections and the tc election | 17:12 |
| tkelsey | lhinds: +1 | 17:12 |
| sigmavirus | Daviey: yes, but that's already something that's changing with the split of the summit | 17:12 |
| dhellmann | yes, a working group is likely to have fewer summit resources, although we don't know for sure what the ptg allocation is going to look like | 17:12 |
| ccneill | for precedent purposes, looking at projects vs. working groups, it's not entirely clear that there is a "right" and "wrong" way. QA is a project, performance is a working group | 17:12 |
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| tmcpeak | let's vote on big-tent, working group | 17:13 |
| sigmavirus | ccneill: so that's the thing, is that we occupy both spaces in a way | 17:13 |
| tmcpeak | #startvote | 17:13 |
| sigmavirus | tmcpeak: can we wait until people have all the information? | 17:13 |
| openstack | Unable to parse vote topic and options. | 17:13 |
| dhellmann | it's quite likely, but I'm not the authority on this, that the security team would be considered cross-project enough to meet on the first day or two of the ptg, leaving vertical team meetings for later in the week | 17:13 |
| tmcpeak | sigmavirus: ? | 17:13 |
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| tmcpeak | I didn't do it correctly anyway | 17:13 |
| sigmavirus | tmcpeak: dhellmann is still answering questions | 17:13 |
| hyakuhei | dhellmann we've often worn two hats in that regard | 17:13 |
| tmcpeak | ok | 17:14 |
| hyakuhei | That'll be even more the case with our TA work complimenting the VMT | 17:14 |
| hyakuhei | I'm looking forward to exploring how things will work with the ptg too | 17:14 |
| dhellmann | yes, there's a bit of grey area there but the case can be made either way | 17:14 |
| tmcpeak | something that I brought up yesterday, and was echoed by others is that we're likely to receive a measurable drop in participation and funding for a working group | 17:14 |
| sigmavirus | ccneill: to explain, since AIUI you're new to openstack, performance WG issues guidelines/suggestions/etc. and doesn't produce much of a deliverable besides documented best practices (like the API WG) | 17:14 |
| dg____ | with my corporate hat on, I think I will struggle to get funds for contribution to working group, particuarly things like meals at meetups, etc. I realise this will change with ptg, but historically we have funded mid-cycles etc. | 17:15 |
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| Daviey | dhellmann: Well truth be told, there were issues in previous summit where required people couldn't be there due to clashes. Would WG make cross-project this more possible? who knows | 17:15 |
| dhellmann | ccneill is right to point out the performance working group. another example is the new architecture group | 17:15 |
| sigmavirus | ccneill: while QA works on tempest, hacking, etc. | 17:15 |
| ccneill | sigmavirus: right. so in those two buckets, I see us doing both of those things (tools + docs) | 17:15 |
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| dhellmann | Daviey: couldn't attend at all, or couldn't attend specific session(s)? | 17:15 |
| ccneill | so I think logically it makes sense that we should come to a decision about which we think WE are | 17:15 |
| sigmavirus | ccneill: although from what I gathered yesterday from private conversations, we've been more tooling heavy | 17:15 |
| ccneill | since we are best able to assess our goals vs. the larger OS goals | 17:15 |
| Daviey | dhellmann: specific | 17:16 |
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| dhellmann | Daviey : ok | 17:16 |
| hyakuhei | My personal opinion (which I tend to be stating a lot at the moment) is that I'd like for us to stay in the big tent and up our game in terms of operating appropriately in that space we can re-assess at that point. | 17:16 |
| dg____ | sigmavirus - dong forget the security guide, OSSNs and security review (TA) work | 17:16 |
| hyakuhei | Nothing is set in stone | 17:16 |
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| dhellmann | those sorts of conflicts are one of the things we're trying to address with the new ptg schedule | 17:16 |
| hyakuhei | I'm cautiously optimistic about the ptg. | 17:16 |
| dg____ | +1 | 17:17 |
| greenhorn | WG or BigTent, do either prevent the work from getting done or is it funding related mostly? | 17:17 |
| sigmavirus | dg____: right, I said we do both, but have leaning more towards tooling lately (based on the impression of people more aware than I am of the docs portion) | 17:17 |
| dhellmann | yeah, we're going to need to hold a ptg once to really figure out what we need to change | 17:17 |
| michaelxin | what's ptg? | 17:17 |
| hyakuhei | greenhorn there's more of a disconnect with regards to use being a gating function for the VMT re the changes to the vulnerability managed tag | 17:17 |
| Daviey | In the future, it might be piratical for OSSP to become a WG which focusses on projects in their own right (which the OSSP is currently guardian of) | 17:17 |
| hyakuhei | michaelxin the breakout of the design sessions from the conferences | 17:17 |
| Daviey | practical* | 17:18 |
| dhellmann | michaelxin : sorry, "project team gathering" is the name of the new contributor-only event to be held in february next year | 17:18 |
| michaelxin | Thanks hyakuhei dhellmann | 17:18 |
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| sigmavirus | greenhorn: so some people have asserted that we will lose people working on OSSP if it becomes a WG | 17:18 |
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| hyakuhei | Me among them. | 17:18 |
| tmcpeak | me too | 17:18 |
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| michaelxin | OSIC will suffer too. | 17:19 |
| dhellmann | hyakuhei, tmcpeak: you would be lost to the team, or you think that will be an outcome? | 17:19 |
| michaelxin | If OSSP is not a project, it is very likely Rackspace and Intel will stop contributing. | 17:19 |
| elmiko | wow... that's huge imo | 17:19 |
| tmcpeak | I personally will get considerable less (if any) time commitment | 17:19 |
| dhellmann | that's unfortunate | 17:19 |
| michaelxin | For OSIC project. | 17:19 |
| ccneill | I can't say for sure, but myself, mdong, unrahul, vinaypotluri, and knangia all work on OSSP projects full-time; I can't speak for OSIC, but it's definitely a risk that they don't continue to fund us | 17:20 |
| hyakuhei | It shouldn't (and isn't) just about funding | 17:20 |
| hyakuhei | but that's a major concern for me | 17:20 |
| lhinds | I think we are thinking of changes cars as we had a flat tyre. We just need to monitor for announcements better, but everything else from my end was working really well. | 17:20 |
| dhellmann | sure, I share that concern | 17:20 |
| lhinds | s/changes/changing | 17:20 |
| michaelxin | ccneill: I talked with Homer. They are very concerned. | 17:20 |
| dg____ | HPE will probably cut us back. Mostly due to the 'security leaves openstack' headlines | 17:20 |
| dg____ | of course, HPE might cut us anyway :) | 17:21 |
| sigmavirus | hyakuhei: okay, so you're the first person to have a concern other than funding | 17:21 |
| hyakuhei | ouch. | 17:21 |
| elmiko | i like hyakuhei's statement about upping our game, that seems like an excellent course if we can follow it | 17:21 |
| tmcpeak | should we ignore the funding component? | 17:21 |
| tmcpeak | seems like a big deal to gloss over | 17:21 |
| hyakuhei | sigmavirus I don't think that's true but I have probably been the most vocal | 17:21 |
| ccneill | hyakuhei: I agree - I don't want it to be about funding, but it is a reality. I think though that we can look at it as a positive opportunity to really grow into the Project title rather than "giving up" so to speak and reverting to WG | 17:21 |
| hyakuhei | +1 | 17:22 |
| tmcpeak | ccneill: +1 | 17:22 |
| dg____ | +1 | 17:22 |
| hyakuhei | That's exactly what I want | 17:22 |
| lhinds | +1 | 17:22 |
| hyakuhei | Hence the long rambling blog post | 17:22 |
| hyakuhei | Oh, I also want Gmail to support special characters in filters. | 17:22 |
| sigmavirus | tmcpeak: I'm not saying it's unimportant, I'm saying that before hyakuhei's blog post no one had anything to argue in favor of a PTL besides "They organize our events for us and being in the big tent gives us funding" | 17:22 |
| elmiko | turn into the headwind, eh? | 17:22 |
| Daviey | Being 'downgraded' to a WG to me, is making a statement that security isn't a first priority of OpenStack | 17:22 |
| tmcpeak | PTL has nothing to do with it. The question is are we a big-tent project | 17:22 |
| dg____ | +1 | 17:22 |
| dhellmann | aside from the fact that the vmt is folded into this team, would anyone object to it being called "security tools" rather than "security"? Does that adequately capture the nature of the work being done? | 17:23 |
| greenhorn | @hyakuhei +1 | 17:23 |
| dg____ | no | 17:23 |
| tmcpeak | dhellmann: not at all | 17:23 |
| tkelsey | if the OSSP leaves the big tent how will that impact bandit/anchor/etc | 17:23 |
| hyakuhei | dhellmann maybe 50% of what we do | 17:23 |
| sigmavirus | Daviey: so then you think the API design, architecture, and performance working groups aren't important to OpenStack because they're working groups? | 17:23 |
| tkelsey | will they need to re-enter as their own thing each? | 17:23 |
| lhinds | dhellmann: we do more then tooling though, I don't agree with that myself | 17:23 |
| ccneill | whoa tkelsey in the house :) | 17:23 |
| tmcpeak | we own the security guide, security notes, sec-core (advice for security on embargoed issues) | 17:23 |
| tkelsey | ccneill: hi :) | 17:23 |
| dg____ | dhellman for example: http://docs.openstack.org/security-guide/ | 17:23 |
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| hyakuhei | dhellmann we have a decent infographic here https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Security | 17:23 |
| tmcpeak | secure development guidelines | 17:23 |
| dhellmann | ok, it sounds like a name change is too narrowly focused, thanks for clarifying that | 17:23 |
| hyakuhei | Basically tooling as a thing we do isn't the big priority | 17:23 |
| dg____ | dhellman theres also this: http://security.openstack.org | 17:24 |
| michaelxin | By moving to WG for security project might conflict with the goal of getting Openstack Enterprise ready (security is a big part). | 17:24 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus: if attendence is any metric, api-wg is not seen as important... =( | 17:24 |
| Daviey | sigmavirus: No.. that isnn't quite what i mean... but those are not primary deliverable | 17:24 |
| hyakuhei | and we need to update that with Syntribos, now that Secure API testing has a proper name | 17:24 |
| unrahul | +1 | 17:24 |
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| hyakuhei | #action hyakuhei to update the Security wiki image to give Syntribos their due place | 17:24 |
| greenhorn | furthermore an argument*could* be made that if security leaves ghe bigtestnt, it portrays a message we might not want to send ('security was kicked out' = not so great msg) | 17:25 |
| sigmavirus | michaelxin: unsurprisingly (to me) OSIC needs serious education about how OpenStack works, but that's for another channel and another discussion | 17:25 |
| dhellmann | I really don't understand the distinction being made between a project team and a working group then. If the point of the team is not to deliver a product, but to deliver advice, etc., then a chartered working group seems just as good a fit. | 17:25 |
| hyakuhei | We do both | 17:25 |
| michaelxin | sigmavirus: +1 | 17:25 |
| dhellmann | greenhorn : you wouldn't be "leaving" though, just having a status change | 17:25 |
| hyakuhei | In pretty much equal parts | 17:25 |
| tmcpeak | we deliver lots of products | 17:25 |
| dhellmann | is there anyone on the team who is only an atc because of contributions to this team? | 17:25 |
| lhinds | we have three development projects putting in around 20-30 patches a day | 17:25 |
| tmcpeak | o/ | 17:25 |
| sicarie | o/ | 17:26 |
| sigmavirus | dhellmann: certainly there are | 17:26 |
| unrahul | o/ | 17:26 |
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| mdong | o/ | 17:26 |
| vinaypotluri | o/ | 17:26 |
| tmcpeak | actually no, that's not true. I contribute to security to other projects (such as Bandit gates) | 17:26 |
| dhellmann | ok, that's good information to have, too | 17:26 |
| tkelsey | o/ | 17:26 |
| lhinds | o/ | 17:26 |
| michaelxin | o/ | 17:26 |
| mdong | I know all of us OSIC members certainly are | 17:26 |
| knangia | o/ | 17:26 |
| ccneill | dhellmann: think of our advice as "this is good" and our tools as "hopefully this will make it even better." we can't have the tools without people with the expertise to give the advice, but we can't have the level of contributions if some people can't work on it in a full-time way (i.e. on an on-going product development or other effort) | 17:26 |
| hyakuhei | o/ (96% sure that's correct for the last cycle) | 17:26 |
| tkelsey | actually no, i have others as well | 17:26 |
| dg____ | i think there definitely are some of us who are only ATC because of this project | 17:26 |
| ccneill | o/ | 17:26 |
| hyakuhei | ccneill I like that | 17:26 |
| hyakuhei | Well put sir | 17:26 |
| Daviey | but those people who are ATC just because of OSSP, could get ATC if the projects were themselevs projects | 17:26 |
| Daviey | Such as OSSN becoming a project itself | 17:27 |
| elmiko | at some point, wasn't the security guide an actual product that this group produced? | 17:27 |
| hyakuhei | Most aren't big enough to stand on their own | 17:27 |
| dg____ | daviey yup | 17:27 |
| tmcpeak | Daviey: but then we need tons of PTLs instead | 17:27 |
| tkelsey | so we would swap one project for many small ones, and multiply the admin overhead | 17:27 |
| hyakuhei | We're good at self managing these things at the moment (election and ML aside) | 17:27 |
| michaelxin | hyakuhei: +1 | 17:27 |
| tkelsey | not great IMHO | 17:27 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, I'm not sure that the best outcome is to turn each repo into its own team | 17:27 |
| sigmavirus | aren't some of the doc-related things co-owned by the documentation team? | 17:27 |
| dg____ | Daviey - if we cant manage to elect a PTL for OSSP, could we get one for Anchor, Bandit, OSSN, Security Doc..... | 17:27 |
| Daviey | tmcpeak: well.. one PTL could cover them all | 17:27 |
| Daviey | (I don't agree with it, but i am suggesting it) | 17:27 |
| dg____ | like a security PTL? | 17:27 |
| * greenhorn wishes IRC was threaded | 17:27 | |
| Daviey | hah | 17:27 |
| dhellmann | that sounds quite a bit like what you have now :-) | 17:28 |
| Daviey | dhellmann: and it kinda works :) | 17:28 |
| ccneill | with more overhead, it sounds like | 17:28 |
| dhellmann | Daviey : mostly :-) | 17:28 |
| dg____ | so it seems like switching to a WG is going to have a bunch of negative effects, without adding much benefit | 17:28 |
| Daviey | somewhat | 17:28 |
| hyakuhei | dg____ that's my feeling at the moment. | 17:28 |
| michaelxin | I do not think that we have enough people to do it. | 17:28 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus: i think you may be right about that | 17:28 |
| tmcpeak | I think we're just pushing around beans here. We have a bunch of projects that we think benefit from having a PTL. Whether those are under one project or a bunch of different projects doesn't matter | 17:29 |
| dhellmann | so it sounds like folks want to stay a big tent team, and that there's some recognition that there are expectations from outside the team to maintain that status | 17:29 |
| michaelxin | We have been struggling with growing team for a while. | 17:29 |
| tmcpeak | dhellmann: yes | 17:29 |
| dg____ | by switching to a WG we get a bunch of extra admin for our existing projects, probably reduce funding and resource, generate negative publicity | 17:29 |
| dhellmann | tmcpeak : sort of. we want to find a stable state where the team is actually working together and not just lumped under a title because of pattern matching | 17:29 |
| dg____ | we work together quite well | 17:29 |
| sigmavirus | dg____: all publicity is good publicity, or so I'm told | 17:29 |
| greenhorn | eh | 17:29 |
| greenhorn | tell that to snowden. ; ) | 17:30 |
| hyakuhei | dhellmann I think that's fair. We're certainly willing to revisit it and I'm going to be accountable for us delivering on the things we should be doing from a project point of view | 17:30 |
| michaelxin | sigmavirus: +1 | 17:30 |
| dg____ | sigmavirus 'openstack abandons security' | 17:30 |
| ccneill | dhellmann: from your perspective, do the goals outlined in hyakuhei's post get us closer to being like other projects? | 17:30 |
| Daviey | dhellmann: To change tack slightly... what would the benefits be of switching to a WG? | 17:30 |
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| dhellmann | ccneill : I've been talking here, not reading, but I will look it over | 17:30 |
| sigmavirus | dg____: and if people can't see past BuzzFeed's headlines, I feel sorry for them | 17:30 |
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| elmiko | sigmavirus: that's a lot of feels to go around ;P | 17:31 |
| dhellmann | Daviey : from one perspective it means a bit less management overhead for the team itself, although that's not really a prime reason | 17:31 |
| sigmavirus | ccneill: I feel more comfortable with having a PTL if those goals are actually project goals | 17:31 |
| dg____ | sigmavirus i was actually thinking of the register | 17:31 |
| hyakuhei | The short version is deliver on the things in the project team guide with a big focus on the mailing list / open communications principle | 17:31 |
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| sigmavirus | hyakuhei: frankly, there was enough negative feedback about the mailing list *on the mailing list* that I don't think you're providing yourself an attainable goal with that one | 17:32 |
| tmcpeak | I'll be the first to say, I hate the mailing list | 17:32 |
| dhellmann | Daviey : as I said to start, my motivation is to help the team decide what structure works for it, and then have that reflected correctly in the governance setup to avoid existential questions in the future | 17:32 |
| tmcpeak | my security filter flags a bunch of stuff that isn't related to my project | 17:32 |
| hyakuhei | Ye of little faith. Most of what we have done re: midcycle, electing cores etc has been conducted on the ML | 17:32 |
| tmcpeak | we might be able to fix that by changing our tag to something specific to us "OSSP" | 17:32 |
| sigmavirus | The overall attitude yesterday on that thread and in #openstack-security was "The mailing list contains no useful information for us and it's not my job to occasionally scan it for something that might be of import" | 17:32 |
| Daviey | dhellmann: Right, i get that.. but i wanted to understand any potential benefits of switching | 17:32 |
| hyakuhei | sigmavirus the bigger issue was really us not reading it as well as we should. | 17:33 |
| tmcpeak | so I don't have to read about neutron security groups, etc | 17:33 |
| dg____ | sigmavirus disagree, it has useful information but it is lost in the noise | 17:33 |
| tmcpeak | TONS of noise | 17:33 |
| sigmavirus | hyakuhei: there's overwhelming sentiment that the mailing list provide no value to this group yesterday | 17:33 |
| dhellmann | Daviey : I don't think there are significant benefits beyond not dealing with elections (which is also not that significant, imho) | 17:33 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus: ouch, that's sad =( | 17:33 |
| ccneill | sigmavirus: as one of the people relaying that sentiment, I will commit to reading the mailing list if that's really the thing that's holding our group back | 17:33 |
| Daviey | sigmavirus: The mailing list is read... the thread that kicked this off was noticed and discussed within minutes of it being sent | 17:33 |
| sigmavirus | tmcpeak: so the attitude that [security] gets more traffic than you think it should is worrisome to me | 17:34 |
| dhellmann | tmcpeak : a tag change might make a lot of sense | 17:34 |
| dg____ | sigmavirus disagree, the sentiment is that stuff gets lost in noise. | 17:34 |
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| ccneill | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 17:34 |
| hyakuhei | sigmavirus as a read operation, currently that's true. but as dhellmann pointed out many people don't really know what we've been doing. I think that as we improve things in that area, relevant ML traffic will increase | 17:34 |
| tmcpeak | sigmavirus: no, [security] is fine | 17:34 |
| michaelxin | we should change our attitude for mail list. | 17:34 |
| dhellmann | hyakuhei : ++ | 17:34 |
| tmcpeak | "security" isn't, and that's how my gmail filter works | 17:34 |
| sigmavirus | tmcpeak: ah, I see | 17:34 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I think gmail filters drop punctuation | 17:34 |
| dg____ | hyakuhei clearly not enough people know what we do, as evidenced by dhellman not knowing what we do... | 17:34 |
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| dg____ | thats something we have to fix | 17:34 |
| elmiko | dg____++ | 17:35 |
| hyakuhei | dg____ for sure. | 17:35 |
| dhellmann | fwiw, we had similar complaints about using the "release" tag for both release announcements and release team discussions, so we changed to "new" for announcements | 17:35 |
| tkelsey | dg____: ++ | 17:35 |
| lhinds | I intend to ramp up participation on the list, and have filters set up. So its fine for me | 17:35 |
| lhinds | -dev that is | 17:35 |
| tmcpeak | should we change our tag to [OSSP]? | 17:35 |
| tmcpeak | that might help | 17:35 |
| dhellmann | dg____ : I apologize for not doing my homework before the meeting. :-) | 17:35 |
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| hyakuhei | That will (ironically) change soon as we start integrating TA with the VMT so basically all new teams will know about us and any going for vulnerability managed would too | 17:35 |
| tmcpeak | not likely to see OSSP false positives | 17:35 |
| Daviey | tmcpeak: doesn't roll off the tongue so much | 17:35 |
| sigmavirus | tmcpeak: that would help for intra-project discussion (if we consider the security team a project, which I think we all do) | 17:35 |
| dg____ | dhellman as much a reflection on our community integration as yours | 17:36 |
| lhinds | 'security' is certainly to wide a net as a filter | 17:36 |
| ccneill | sigmavirus: +1 | 17:36 |
| tmcpeak | if email wasn't painful I'd definitely like to start using it more | 17:36 |
| tmcpeak | helpful for synching with others in different TZ, etc | 17:36 |
| ccneill | everyone can commit to reading internal mailing list, but not the whole OS list | 17:36 |
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| sigmavirus | tmcpeak: email is one of the worst possibly designed communication systems but it's what we have | 17:36 |
| hyakuhei | I think the problem is that people tend to use [Security] as a tag that they want some sort of ethereal security body to add stuff to a thread | 17:36 |
| tmcpeak | well we've decided to prefer IRC as a project | 17:36 |
| dhellmann | for those of you not on gmail, you might find https://doughellmann.com/blog/2015/03/17/handling-high-email-volume-with-sup/ useful | 17:36 |
| hyakuhei | more of a meta-tag than looking for us as a specific body. | 17:36 |
| sigmavirus | ccneill: right, I do think we're missing discussions though where we could be gaining visibility and new contributors by not looking for those opportunities on the list though | 17:37 |
| michaelxin | dhellmann: Thanks. | 17:37 |
| Daviey | So, you could subscribe twice to the mailing list.. with one of them using email+security@gmail.com and subscribe to just the [SECURITY] tag. Then you can special case it easily enough as you have a unique TO address? | 17:37 |
| dg____ | dhellmann thanks | 17:37 |
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| lhinds | [openstack-sec] | 17:37 |
| mvaldes | so have we decided that we want to do what is necessary to remain a big-tent project? | 17:38 |
| hyakuhei | So I think the tag issue is relevant but probably something we don't have to decide right now | 17:38 |
| tmcpeak | mvaldes: I think so | 17:38 |
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| mvaldes | and moved on to "how we improve as a big-tent project" | 17:38 |
| tmcpeak | is anybody NOT in favor of security remaining a project? | 17:38 |
| lhinds | mvaldes +1 | 17:38 |
| hyakuhei | I'd like to come back to "Are we staying in the big-tent for now" and "Who will be PTL" | 17:38 |
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| tmcpeak | hyakuhei: +1 | 17:38 |
| hyakuhei | mvaldes I think you're right but I'd like us to be explicit about it | 17:38 |
| mvaldes | do we need a discussion of "how do we appeal to the community that we remain a big—tent project" | 17:39 |
| sigmavirus | hyakuhei: I'd advocate for a formal vote for the first question | 17:39 |
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| hyakuhei | if we're ready to, lets vote | 17:39 |
| michaelxin | If none ha additional question, we can vote. | 17:39 |
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| dg____ | before we vote, did i miss the bit where we covered advantages to going to WG? | 17:39 |
| sigmavirus | "#startvote Do the project members want to continue to be part of the Big Tent?" I think might work | 17:39 |
| sigmavirus | dg____: no one's discussed it really | 17:39 |
| Daviey | hmm.. I think it is largely been agreed by most people inside and outside ossp that it remains big tent. Not sure we need more than just a quick vote here? | 17:39 |
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| sigmavirus | dg____: one advantage is no one having to watch for PTL nominations | 17:39 |
| hyakuhei | Daviey +1 | 17:40 |
| dg____ | sigmavirus :) | 17:40 |
| tmcpeak | quick vote should work | 17:40 |
| mvaldes | -_- | 17:40 |
| sigmavirus | dg____: I'm glad you appreciate my humor ;) | 17:40 |
| ccneill | so no real advantages | 17:40 |
| tmcpeak | #startvote Do the project members want to continue to be part of the Big Tent? | 17:40 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: Do the project members want to continue to be part of the Big Tent? Valid vote options are Yes, No. | 17:40 |
| michaelxin | ccneill: +1 | 17:40 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 17:40 |
| tmcpeak | #vote Yes | 17:40 |
| sigmavirus | #vote Yes | 17:40 |
| lhinds | #vote Yes | 17:40 |
| ccneill | #vote Yes | 17:40 |
| mdong | #vote yes | 17:40 |
| hyakuhei | #vote Yes | 17:40 |
| elmiko | #vote Yes | 17:41 |
| unrahul | #vote Yes | 17:41 |
| sicarie | #vote yes | 17:41 |
| dg____ | #vote Yes | 17:41 |
| Daviey | #vote Yes | 17:41 |
| mvaldes | #vote Yes | 17:41 |
| michaelxin | #vote Yes | 17:41 |
| knangia | #vote yes | 17:41 |
| greenhorn | #vote yes | 17:41 |
| vinaypotluri | #vote yes | 17:41 |
| browne | #vote yes | 17:41 |
| tmcpeak | allright | 17:41 |
| tkelsey | #vote yes | 17:41 |
| tmcpeak | looks pretty conclusive :D | 17:41 |
| sigmavirus | are we missing anyone? | 17:42 |
| ccneill | 18 yays | 17:42 |
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| tmcpeak | ending vote in 1 min | 17:42 |
| dg____ | dhellman ? | 17:42 |
| * Daviey waits for 19 no's | 17:42 | |
| tmcpeak | #endvote | 17:42 |
| openstack | Voted on "Do the project members want to continue to be part of the Big Tent?" Results are | 17:42 |
| dhellmann | dg____ : oh, I wasn't going to vote, I'm not a part of the team. I'm just here to advise. | 17:42 |
| sigmavirus | Daviey: i can probably whip up some IRC bots for you :P | 17:42 |
| ccneill | aw come on openstack you're leaving me hanging! WHO WINS?! | 17:42 |
| michaelxin | haha | 17:43 |
| tmcpeak | ok now PTL | 17:43 |
| sigmavirus | ccneill: NO ONE | 17:43 |
| sigmavirus | ;P | 17:43 |
| tmcpeak | who is interested? | 17:43 |
| ccneill | :(((((((( | 17:43 |
| ccneill | Donald J Trump | 17:43 |
| sigmavirus | ccneill: too soon | 17:43 |
| ccneill | sorry, strike that from the record | 17:43 |
| lhinds | vote is rigged! | 17:43 |
| elmiko | i really don't trust a 100% consensus, really needed a no in there to keep us honest | 17:43 |
| sigmavirus | (also it's drumpf) | 17:43 |
| lhinds | all bots | 17:43 |
| hyakuhei | heh | 17:43 |
| Daviey | I think most people assumed hyakuhei would stand again... did he want to do it? | 17:43 |
| tkelsey | my bot is laggy :P | 17:43 |
| sigmavirus | elmiko: hyakuhei's blog post convinced me of Yes this morning before the meeting | 17:43 |
| michaelxin | Daviey: +1 | 17:43 |
| sigmavirus | Daviey: judging by said post, he does | 17:43 |
| tmcpeak | yeah, hyakuhei do you want to continue doing it? | 17:43 |
| hyakuhei | I'd quite like to | 17:43 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus: nice, well that's an "almost no" | 17:44 |
| sigmavirus | (I think it's in one of the last paragraphs) | 17:44 |
| hyakuhei | lol | 17:44 |
| lhinds | hyakuhei +1 | 17:44 |
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| tmcpeak | cool, anybody else? | 17:44 |
| dg____ | I would nominate hyakuhei for this period, while we try and fix ourselves | 17:44 |
| Daviey | sigmavirus: (just trying to be explicit) | 17:44 |
| tkelsey | dg____: +1 | 17:44 |
| ccneill | dg____: seconded | 17:44 |
| dg____ | then seriously look at succession planning next time? | 17:44 |
| hyakuhei | dg____ +1 | 17:44 |
| elmiko | agreed, hyakuhei ++ | 17:44 |
| dg____ | ideally with someone who remembers we need a ptl :P | 17:44 |
| Daviey | It would probably be an idea of having a *goal* of having at least PTL nominations next cycle | 17:44 |
| elmiko | dg____: lol, BURN! | 17:45 |
| Daviey | (3 PTL nominations) | 17:45 |
| sigmavirus | dg____: that's might be too much to ask | 17:45 |
| ccneill | can we add a notification to openstack-bot? :) | 17:45 |
| greenhorn | Deez +1 ; ) | 17:45 |
| sicarie | Does Lotus Notes have a calendar function? | 17:45 |
| ccneill | I think we established that our IRC attendance is better than our ML participation | 17:45 |
| dg____ | daviey that is a good point. we should have 3 suitable candidates | 17:45 |
| hyakuhei | Daviey +1 | 17:45 |
| tkelsey | dg____: Daviey +1 | 17:45 |
| sigmavirus | dg____: Daviey curious about 3 being the magic number | 17:45 |
| Daviey | sigmavirus: I just plucked it | 17:45 |
| hyakuhei | dhellmann what are the next steps for us from a TC/organizational point of view? | 17:46 |
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| Daviey | I think captn0day had aspirations | 17:46 |
| dhellmann | Daviey : it would be good to have some other folks thinking about rotating the responsibilities, but it's not a requirement that there be an election. if only one team member is able to commit to being PTL, that's OK. | 17:46 |
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| greenhorn | you're thinking cluster quorum maybe | 17:46 |
| tmcpeak | Daviey: +++++ | 17:46 |
| dg____ | given the diversity of the areas we look at, 3 doesnt seem unreasonable | 17:46 |
| sicarie | looool | 17:46 |
| michaelxin | So, we control our fate or not? | 17:46 |
| sigmavirus | tmcpeak: should run to make bandit great again ;) | 17:46 |
| tmcpeak | lol | 17:47 |
| dhellmann | hyakuhei : I think you've already been talking with ttx? I would make sure that he and the rest of the TC is aware that you're ready to serve, the team is going to work on the communication stuff to avoid the situation in the future, and then get it on the TC agenda for next week. | 17:47 |
| sigmavirus | michaelxin: I think hyakuhei and a couple of us should attend the TC meeting on Tuesday | 17:47 |
| dhellmann | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 17:47 |
| dg____ | ty | 17:47 |
| tmcpeak | my support is behind hyakuhei :) | 17:47 |
| Daviey | dhellmann: Does this mean that the recommendation to the TC will be that hyakuhei is appointed PTL for this cycle? | 17:47 |
| dhellmann | there's already an item there about "Decide future of Security and OpenStackSalt project teams" | 17:47 |
| tmcpeak | I'll help with the administrative crap though | 17:47 |
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| sigmavirus | tmcpeak: right, I'm also willing to help if hyakuhei needs it | 17:48 |
| michaelxin | So, the decision will be next Tuesday? | 17:48 |
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| hyakuhei | Thanks sigmavirus tmcpeak | 17:48 |
| sigmavirus | I just have no way of getting a commitment from my organization to be PTL | 17:48 |
| dhellmann | Daviey : I don't want to speak for anyone else. I support that position. I think there's a strong likelihood that others will too. | 17:48 |
| sigmavirus | (And I don't want to be PTL either) | 17:48 |
| Daviey | dhellmann: super, thanks | 17:48 |
| tmcpeak | I think fungi mentioned being interested? | 17:48 |
| michaelxin | dhellmann: Thanks. | 17:48 |
| hyakuhei | Just another week of waiting to hear my fate ;) | 17:48 |
| Daviey | hyakuhei: 12 mins left.. might be a good idea to smash through the agenda? | 17:49 |
| Daviey | err tmcpeak | 17:49 |
| michaelxin | Do we need support from other TC members? | 17:49 |
| tmcpeak | ok, anything else we need on this? | 17:49 |
| dg____ | dhellmann are you likely to be able to help in future (assuming we dont get thrown out) while we figure out how to be better engaged with the community? | 17:49 |
| michaelxin | OSIC offered to help if needed. | 17:49 |
| greenhorn | ugh meeting - gtg. fun meeting eveyrone | 17:49 |
| hyakuhei | thanks greenhorn | 17:49 |
| tmcpeak | thanks greenhorn | 17:49 |
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| tmcpeak | #topic dg for sec core | 17:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "dg for sec core (Meeting topic: Security)" | 17:49 | |
| dhellmann | dg____ : I can offer some advice, but we might also be able to find another TC member who can be more active with you. | 17:49 |
| tmcpeak | we actually DID use the ML for this, didn't we | 17:49 |
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| dg____ | dhellmann excellent, thanks | 17:50 |
| dhellmann | thanks for including me folks. I appreciate the constructive discussion on what I know is a frustrating situation. | 17:50 |
| fungi | tmcpeak: no, i was merely bemoaning the fact that i'm not able to find time to get involved enough in other things the security team works on to feel comfortable being ptl (not to mention, i'm already ptl of one of the most active teams in the community, so lack much free time) | 17:50 |
| hyakuhei | This was sent out on the ML (hah!) and we had a response from fungi with a +1 | 17:50 |
| tmcpeak | thanks dhellmann, appreciate your help sorting it out | 17:50 |
| tmcpeak | fungi: gotcha | 17:50 |
| hyakuhei | thanks dhellmann you've been a good help here | 17:50 |
| hyakuhei | s/good/big | 17:50 |
| hyakuhei | ... long day. | 17:50 |
| lhinds | thx dhellmann | 17:50 |
| ccneill | dhellmann: thanks for coming. this discussion was definitely needed | 17:50 |
| Daviey | thanks dhellmann | 17:50 |
| michaelxin | dhellmann: Thanks. | 17:50 |
| tmcpeak | allright, so dg | 17:51 |
| tmcpeak | where did we get | 17:51 |
| tmcpeak | I think we're all happy, any push back from the ML post? | 17:51 |
| tmcpeak | I saw fungi agreed | 17:51 |
| hyakuhei | Yeah, we're good to go. There's a space there. | 17:51 |
| tmcpeak | also hyakuhei did you speak with nkinder? | 17:52 |
| tmcpeak | I'd love his continued input but know he's swamped | 17:52 |
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| hyakuhei | Yes soryr | 17:53 |
| hyakuhei | heh | 17:53 |
| hyakuhei | Nkinder is stepping down from coresec | 17:53 |
| hyakuhei | Doug gets his shoes. | 17:53 |
| hyakuhei | If everyone agrees | 17:53 |
| tmcpeak | ok, so with dg we have 4 active members able to assess security impact for embargoed issues? | 17:53 |
| michaelxin | who are the 4 ? | 17:54 |
| tmcpeak | hyakuhei, dg, lhinds, and me | 17:54 |
| michaelxin | nice | 17:54 |
| fungi | them's some big shoes. nkinder is awesome | 17:54 |
| michaelxin | Thanks. | 17:54 |
| tmcpeak | fungi: +1 | 17:54 |
| tmcpeak | great, seems like we're good there | 17:55 |
| tmcpeak | #topic Syntribos | 17:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Syntribos (Meeting topic: Security)" | 17:55 | |
| hyakuhei | fungi +1 | 17:55 |
| tmcpeak | ccneill, unrahul: you're up | 17:55 |
| elmiko | fungi: agreed, nkinder++ | 17:55 |
| ccneill | so we're testing Nova right now | 17:55 |
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| ccneill | wrapped up testing Glance earlier this week | 17:55 |
| ccneill | found one potential issue in Glance that's still embargoed | 17:55 |
| dg____ | awesome, thanks guys. sad nkinder had to step down thou :( | 17:55 |
| ccneill | next week we test Cinder/Swift | 17:55 |
| tmcpeak | ccneill: sick! | 17:55 |
| ccneill | so that's the news on the testing front | 17:55 |
| tmcpeak | ccneill: you guys should write an ML post about this | 17:56 |
| Daviey | ccneill: How many compute hours does a scan take? | 17:56 |
| ccneill | tmcpeak: agreed, we'll come up with a summary | 17:56 |
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| tmcpeak | great | 17:56 |
| ccneill | Daviey: depends on the project under test, and the number of endpoints | 17:56 |
| Daviey | ccneill: with the ones you have done so far? | 17:56 |
| ccneill | Daviey: in the ballpark of an hour to 3 at this point :X | 17:56 |
| fungi | yeah, we've (vmt) seen a few good reports come in from the syntribos team already, so glad it's picking up steam. thanks! | 17:56 |
| Daviey | wow, that is much quicker than i anticipated | 17:56 |
| ccneill | so, in terms of "lessons learned" from this round of testing | 17:56 |
| ccneill | fungi: :) thanks, we'll keep trying to find fun stuff | 17:57 |
| ccneill | - we need to work on performance where we can get it | 17:57 |
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| ccneill | we currently use unittest, and I'm convinced that we can streamline things with a queue and workers to significantly improve performance there | 17:57 |
| tmcpeak | awesome, anything else for syntribos? | 17:57 |
| tmcpeak | 2 mins | 17:58 |
| tmcpeak | we're not going to get through the agenda today | 17:58 |
| ccneill | last thing: we will hopefully have a new version up on pip soon :) | 17:58 |
| fungi | ccneill: any parallelism (like we get with testr in other openstack projects)? | 17:58 |
| unrahul | :) +1 ccneill | 17:58 |
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| ccneill | fungi: we're planning to explore it once we finish this first round of testing | 17:58 |
| ccneill | but no parallelism built in at the moment | 17:58 |
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| fungi | cool, that's definitely one place i'd consider looking for performance improvements | 17:59 |
| dg____ | before we wrap up, please can I beg reviews of this: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/357978/5 | 17:59 |
| tmcpeak | allright guys, we've got to wrap | 17:59 |
| fungi | though you need your tests quantized into non-interdependent units for parallelism to really be viable | 17:59 |
| hyakuhei | dg____ already has my +2 | 18:00 |
| dg____ | tmcpeak lhinds redrobot ^^ | 18:00 |
| ccneill | fungi: yep, none of our tests are interdependent thankfully | 18:00 |
| lhinds | dg____: +2 | 18:00 |
| tmcpeak | dg____: sire | 18:00 |
| tmcpeak | #endmeeting | 18:00 |
| dg____ | thanks guys | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:00 | |
| redrobot | eh, sorry, I haven't had time to review :( | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Sep 22 18:00:20 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:00 |
| tmcpeak | thanks everybody | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/security/2016/security.2016-09-22-17.00.html | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/security/2016/security.2016-09-22-17.00.txt | 18:00 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/security/2016/security.2016-09-22-17.00.log.html | 18:00 |
| elmiko | thanks hyakuhei tmcpeak ! | 18:00 |
| elmiko | good luck =) | 18:00 |
| hyakuhei | thanks all! | 18:00 |
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| Daviey | thanks tmcpeak | 18:00 |
| ccneill | o/ thanks guys | 18:00 |
| tmcpeak | thanks all! | 18:01 |
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| SpamapS | #startmeeting arch_wg | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Sep 22 19:02:18 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SpamapS. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: arch_wg)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'arch_wg' | 19:02 |
| nikhil | o/ | 19:02 |
| rustyl | o/ | 19:02 |
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| SpamapS | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Arch-WG#Agenda | 19:02 |
| rosmaita | o/ | 19:02 |
| SpamapS | Courtesy ping for arch_wg: nikhil, harlowja, dstanek | 19:03 |
| KrishR | o/ | 19:03 |
| harlowja | oh hi, brb, getting food before | 19:03 |
| kragniz | o/ | 19:03 |
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| SpamapS | welcome welcome all | 19:03 |
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| SpamapS | dtroyer said he'd join us late | 19:03 |
| nikhil | reminder: the courtesy ping list on the wiki can be updated for those who need highlight reminders for this meeting | 19:03 |
| SpamapS | presumably because he's double-booked on odd weeks | 19:03 |
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| cdent | o/ I managed to show up for once | 19:04 |
| SpamapS | cdent: huzzah! | 19:04 |
| dtroyer_zz | o/ | 19:04 |
| SpamapS | dtroyer_zz: woot | 19:04 |
| SpamapS | #topic previous meeting action items | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "previous meeting action items (Meeting topic: arch_wg)" | 19:04 | |
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| SpamapS | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/arch_wg/2016/ | 19:04 |
| SpamapS | a moment while I scrape them out | 19:04 |
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| SpamapS | SpamapS fix the agenda cargo cult fail to not say api_wg | 19:05 |
| SpamapS | done | 19:05 |
| SpamapS | SpamapS find an APAC friendly slot in the odd weeks. | 19:05 |
| SpamapS | I have not done this yet. Apologies for that. Since next week is the even week, I hope to have one to propose then so in two weeks we'll have one in an APAC friendly slot | 19:06 |
| harlowja | woah cdent who are u | 19:06 |
| SpamapS | #action SpamapS find an APAC friendly slot in the odd weeks. [carried over] | 19:06 |
| cdent | harlowja: ikr! | 19:06 |
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| SpamapS | harlowja: I hear he's nothing but trouble | 19:06 |
| SpamapS | everyone please review https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/arch-wg-draft to ensure it matches the spirit of https://review.openstack.org/335141 | 19:06 |
| woodster_ | o/ | 19:06 |
| rocky_g | o/ | 19:06 |
| rocky_g | dang. Whaddi miss? | 19:07 |
| SpamapS | rocky_g: not much | 19:07 |
| harlowja | ha | 19:07 |
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| SpamapS | This last action item is really just a reminder to look and help edit that etherpad so we can land it in the repo whenever I finally get around to creating the repo. | 19:07 |
| SpamapS | SpamapS create architecture-wg-repo | 19:07 |
| SpamapS | I was a total slacker this week and did not do any of that. Before I carry it over, did anyone else want to pick that up? | 19:08 |
| rustyl | What time of day for APAC were you considering... where is everyone joining from? | 19:08 |
| * rocky_g takes one step back | 19:08 | |
| nikhil | SpamapS: you're mising #action prefix to your action items :) | 19:09 |
| nikhil | slick | 19:09 |
| nikhil | rustyl: I think we will need a doodle and/or review for that. it depends on the availability of the slot too. | 19:10 |
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| SpamapS | rustyl: we have had at least 2 requests for a time that fits for APAC architecture WG participants, which is enough for me. | 19:10 |
| SpamapS | nikhil: I'm not adding new actions, I'm reviewing old ones. | 19:10 |
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| SpamapS | but, to the point, I think they deserve a * prefix | 19:11 |
| nikhil | SpamapS: I can create the repo | 19:11 |
| SpamapS | nikhil: sweet | 19:11 |
| SpamapS | one less thing | 19:11 |
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| SpamapS | #action nikhil Create architecture-wg git repository for proposals and general WG documentation. | 19:11 |
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| SpamapS | nikhil: I believe there's some guidance in dtroyer's email from this past week. | 19:12 |
| SpamapS | * dtroyer_zz Add write-up of backlog procedures to etherpad and send to ML for discussion | 19:12 |
| SpamapS | I believe that got done | 19:13 |
| nikhil | awesome | 19:13 |
| SpamapS | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-September/104144.html | 19:13 |
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| SpamapS | Please everybody find that in your inboxes and respond with any feedback. I think the text of that email should probably go in as one of our first documents in the repo | 19:13 |
| SpamapS | and a block of actions now: | 19:14 |
| SpamapS | SpamapS make dtroyer harlowja ttx Rockyg initial cores of architecture-wg repo | 19:14 |
| SpamapS | SpamapS get the arch-core rings ordered | 19:14 |
| SpamapS | SpamapS add nikhil to initial cores as well | 19:14 |
| SpamapS | nikhil: I think we can just fold that all into the repo creation. | 19:14 |
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| SpamapS | as implementation details | 19:14 |
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| dtroyer_zz | SpamapS: that email is a summary of the etherpad, that is what I think should go into the repo | 19:15 |
| * dtroyer_zz is behind | 19:15 | |
| SpamapS | dtroyer_zz: good point. :) | 19:15 |
| SpamapS | Did we miss any action items from last week? | 19:15 |
| harlowja | SpamapS did u get them ordered | 19:15 |
| harlowja | platinum right | 19:15 |
| nikhil | SpamapS: ack on folding that into the repo | 19:16 |
| SpamapS | harlowja: oh, yes, Rose Gold with Hematite faux pearls. | 19:16 |
| harlowja | faux? | 19:16 |
| rocky_g | gold? | 19:16 |
| nikhil | rose? | 19:16 |
| nikhil | lol | 19:16 |
| harlowja | ah. at least we all got our sense of humor still :) | 19:16 |
| SpamapS | #action all BE SERIOUS THIS IS ARCHITECTURE ;) | 19:17 |
| * rocky_g puts the cheetos down | 19:17 | |
| SpamapS | Ok so I'm going to skip the next few topics | 19:18 |
| SpamapS | because they're all basically hinged on having a repo and proposals to discuss | 19:18 |
| harlowja | kk | 19:18 |
| SpamapS | we can loop back around for the proposal discussion at the end, but we have some other business I want to make sure we don't miss | 19:18 |
| * cdent takes the cheetos | 19:18 | |
| harlowja | ? | 19:18 |
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| SpamapS | #topic Summit Cross-Project Space Request | 19:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summit Cross-Project Space Request (Meeting topic: arch_wg)" | 19:18 | |
| SpamapS | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ocata-cross-project-sessions | 19:18 |
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| rocky_g | ++ | 19:19 |
| SpamapS | I really think we need that space in the cross-project fishbowls | 19:19 |
| harlowja | i'd like it | 19:19 |
| SpamapS | I know most of you, but I'd like to make sure we have a chance to introduce ourselves to the rest of OpenStack as a group | 19:19 |
| harlowja | hi i'm josh | 19:20 |
| SpamapS | no you're not | 19:20 |
| harlowja | hi i'm not josh | 19:20 |
| SpamapS | yes you are | 19:20 |
| harlowja | :( | 19:20 |
| SpamapS | So, anyway, please review the text in that etherpad before October 1 | 19:20 |
| harlowja | is there anyway we can split some of those proposals into categories? | 19:20 |
| SpamapS | If you want to improve it, either just do it there, or we can discuss here. | 19:21 |
| harlowja | like [tech-debt, future-thinking...] | 19:21 |
| harlowja | like python3.x is tech-debt | 19:21 |
| SpamapS | harlowja: I think that's worthwhile metadata that we can use to make sure we're spending adequate time on each area we want to. | 19:21 |
| harlowja | k, i mean nothing wrong with tech-debt (it will always exist) | 19:21 |
| SpamapS | harlowja: also, I believe the deciders on that list are the TC, so we can also make sure to influence the TC on the overall makeup of these at the TC meeting | 19:22 |
| harlowja | kk | 19:23 |
| rocky_g | I think we can also vote, but just as a popularity thing, not like the TCV | 19:23 |
| SpamapS | I actually really dislike voting as a consensus mechanism. | 19:23 |
| harlowja | whats TCV? | 19:23 |
| rocky_g | oops. I was wrong. Only TC | 19:23 |
| harlowja | kk | 19:23 |
| SpamapS | Yeah, TC will be deciding on this list. I think they're trying to rank them by value. | 19:24 |
| rocky_g | harlowja, TCV==fat fingers | 19:24 |
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| harlowja | we have a new TC composed of fat fingers | 19:24 |
| harlowja | nice | 19:24 |
| SpamapS | oh, TCV is fat fingers? I definitely have that. | 19:24 |
| harlowja | (and this is how crazy rumors start, lol) | 19:24 |
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| SpamapS | So, I'm pausing a bit so everyone can read through the list there | 19:25 |
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| SpamapS | We'll move on to other business in a minute. Please take that minute now to read the text that is there for our fishbowl session, and then just comment here if you think it should be discussed. | 19:26 |
| cdent | blurb++ | 19:26 |
| SpamapS | Note that I think we could also propose to split a session with the PWG because we're kind of two sides of the same coin (they're more about what end users see at the high level, we're more about what developers work on at a high level) | 19:27 |
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| SpamapS | But I'd rather have the 40 minutes to work through proposals face to face. | 19:27 |
| SpamapS | Ok, let's move on. | 19:28 |
| SpamapS | #topic Proposals for work | 19:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Proposals for work (Meeting topic: arch_wg)" | 19:28 | |
| SpamapS | we don't have a proposals repo yet, but we do still have 2 things on the agenda if anybody wants to chat about them. | 19:28 |
| rocky_g | We should go for a working session with PWG | 19:28 |
| harlowja | just a quick question, on the proposals for work, do we want to set expectations for these? | 19:29 |
| harlowja | for example, its pretty easy to through out random ideas | 19:29 |
| dtroyer_zz | that is one of the reasons for asking for a background doc | 19:29 |
| harlowja | but its the real hard work of actually doing it and doing it in a way that involves others that i think is where snags happy | 19:29 |
| harlowja | *happen | 19:30 |
| SpamapS | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/arch-wg-draft | 19:30 |
| rustyl | the first item we work on should be easy to allow the process to tested | 19:30 |
| harlowja | dtroyer_zz k, that would be useful | 19:30 |
| SpamapS | harlowja: this has a "How to contribute" section | 19:30 |
| dtroyer_zz | to raise the bar a bit and get people on the same page of what exactly is being proposed | 19:30 |
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| dtroyer_zz | rustyl: exactly | 19:30 |
| harlowja | dtroyer_zz gotcha, also a 'outreach section?' | 19:30 |
| SpamapS | which basically sets the expectations | 19:30 |
| harlowja | k | 19:30 |
| dtroyer_zz | I think things in that proposal list without a name attached will have a hard time getting int the repo :) | 19:31 |
| SpamapS | rustyl: I agree. I think ttx's base services one is a good candidate for that. Because documenting the current situation will be relatively simple (All OpenStack projects can already expect to have wsgi servers to run their code, a SQL database, and a MQ) and then we can build toward what we'd like to add to that (mostly, a DLM fronted by tooz) | 19:32 |
| SpamapS | we might also want to add memcached | 19:33 |
| SpamapS | since most projects end up using it | 19:33 |
| dtroyer_zz | ttx's proposal was actually at the OpenStack services level, ie Barbican, but the DLM ins another one to consider | 19:33 |
| SpamapS | right, Keystone is also on the list. | 19:33 |
| SpamapS | Barbican......... | 19:33 |
| dtroyer_zz | ah, there are two lines in that list, so yeah | 19:33 |
| harlowja | DLM is an interesting one, because i also feel there is education that we may also need to help out with also | 19:33 |
| harlowja | like most of these (systems) are more than just locks | 19:34 |
| dtroyer_zz | and the information on stuff like that is one of the value-adds I think this team can/should provide | 19:34 |
| harlowja | locks are just one 'by-product' of the underlying consensus stuff happening inside them | 19:34 |
| * harlowja just saying | 19:35 | |
| SpamapS | harlowja: right, the thing is, even with Cinder landing their use of tooz, we want to be able to confidently go around to each project and add DLM dependencies without having to go through the same "but no some people won't have a DLM" discussion. | 19:35 |
| harlowja | right, there is more of a spectrum is all i'm saying | 19:36 |
| harlowja | DLM is imho like the start of that spectrum | 19:36 |
| harlowja | (spectrum of consensus like systems and using them) | 19:36 |
| rocky_g | also goes to scaling. | 19:36 |
| SpamapS | Yeah, I think the two that ttx wanted to discuss adding, (or probably more important, wanted to develop a process for adding) were DLM and Barbican. | 19:36 |
| rocky_g | The bigger the site, the more stuff you need to manage the more stuff | 19:36 |
| harlowja | the zuul v3 folks have an interesting view on this to | 19:36 |
| harlowja | they are using zookeeper for some more advanced stuff (farther down the spectrum than just locks) | 19:37 |
| harlowja | (thus the education part) | 19:37 |
| harlowja | why is monty not in here :-P | 19:37 |
| dtroyer_zz | I think he has Stockholm syndrome? | 19:37 |
| dtroyer_zz | er, is in Stockholm? | 19:37 |
| dtroyer_zz | :) | 19:38 |
| nikhil | wat! | 19:38 |
| rocky_g | This is where I think upstream university should have sections for all OpenStack developers to learn about current and new conventions. Like Zookeeper | 19:38 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer_zz: oh, is in Stockholm! | 19:38 |
| harlowja | rocky_g that'd be nice (for people inside and outside of openstack IMHO) | 19:38 |
| dtroyer_zz | nikhil: sub-par joke | 19:38 |
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| rocky_g | Yup. F2F training to get the folks on the same page as technologies and architecture change | 19:39 |
| harlowja | ya, i feel even if we say magically technology/architecture whizbang | 19:39 |
| SpamapS | rocky_g: that's a great point actually. Our efforts to create design should flow into upstream U | 19:40 |
| harlowja | that unless u know what whizbang means u'll just be like whatever | 19:40 |
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| SpamapS | also | 19:40 |
| SpamapS | http://docs.openstack.org/arch-design/ | 19:40 |
| Shrews | o/ | 19:40 |
| SpamapS | #link http://docs.openstack.org/arch-design/ | 19:40 |
| SpamapS | We should work with the authors of that a lot. | 19:40 |
| rocky_g | ++ | 19:40 |
| SpamapS | That book is about end-user architecture | 19:40 |
| harlowja | hi Shrews, just was getting into how your zuul v3 perspective might be a interesting one | 19:41 |
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| SpamapS | And we're going to be making assertions that flow directly into end-user architecture decisions. | 19:41 |
| harlowja | and the spectrum of how a system like zookeeper is more of a spectrum with DLM on one side of it | 19:41 |
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| SpamapS | So whenever we consider a proposal, we should always make sure to plan doc work on the architecture design guide. | 19:41 |
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| harlowja | there is a book? | 19:41 |
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| harlowja | woah | 19:41 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:41 |
| SpamapS | harlowja: it's for designing your built cloud, not for designing OpenStack. :) | 19:41 |
| harlowja | oh | 19:42 |
| harlowja | nm then | 19:42 |
| rocky_g | There should be an OpenStack Architectural Concepts that is for the Projects' architectural features/philosphies | 19:42 |
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| SpamapS | anyway | 19:42 |
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| harlowja | my point heard though, thx :) | 19:42 |
| harlowja | (it will imho be the hardest thing of all) | 19:43 |
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| harlowja | (to teach fishing, lol) | 19:43 |
| SpamapS | Shrews: for more context, what we're saying is, we want to let people depend on the existence of DLM as they design openstack projects. | 19:43 |
| harlowja | can we also get past calling it a DLM ;) | 19:44 |
| * harlowja i'd like that :-P | 19:44 | |
| SpamapS | nope | 19:44 |
| harlowja | maybe call it a consenus-enabler, lol | 19:44 |
| Shrews | just to be clear, your definition of DLM is distributed lock manager, yes? | 19:44 |
| SpamapS | that sounds so hippie | 19:44 |
| SpamapS | coordination service? | 19:45 |
| harlowja | ah, that'd be nicer | 19:45 |
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| harlowja | better | 19:45 |
| SpamapS | Tooz fronted coordination service? | 19:45 |
| harlowja | DLM just to me implies only locks | 19:45 |
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| harlowja | and these systems are greater than that :-P | 19:45 |
| rocky_g | traffic controller | 19:45 |
| harlowja | coordination service i think is ok | 19:46 |
| rocky_g | like on trains and tracks | 19:46 |
| harlowja | unsure the metaphor there, ha | 19:46 |
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| rocky_g | the system that keeps trains from crashing into each other as they share portions of the same tracks | 19:47 |
| harlowja | is there a tron reference we can use, lol | 19:47 |
| harlowja | MCP? | 19:47 |
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| harlowja | lol | 19:47 |
| SpamapS | anyway | 19:47 |
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| SpamapS | I think we have decided we want to at least work on documenting what that is | 19:48 |
| SpamapS | and what we want developers to be able to expect, and deployers too | 19:48 |
| harlowja | ya, a good thing to reference is the watcher capabilitiy of these systems | 19:48 |
| harlowja | such capability goes beyond locks | 19:48 |
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| SpamapS | what about Barbican? | 19:49 |
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| * SpamapS hears crickets | 19:50 | |
| woodster_ | Regarding Barbican, is the goal to provide a ref arch for utilizing such systems? The barbican team has been trying to figure out the best way to promote integration with other projects | 19:50 |
| * harlowja doesn't know enough about Barbican | 19:50 | |
| SpamapS | woodster_: sort of | 19:50 |
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| SpamapS | woodster_: I'm proxying ttx here, but basically, when you go to write AaaS (Anything as a Service) in OpenStack, you can count on a few things being there implicitly.. | 19:51 |
| SpamapS | woodster_: DB, Keystone, MQ, wsgi, etc. | 19:51 |
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| harlowja | so an interesting sorta thing for this, and i don't know the answer, is there is some kind of overlap here with docker and kubernetes, how much interest do folks have in these 2 worlds might be an intersting question | 19:51 |
| harlowja | how much out of openstack outreach do we care about (?) | 19:51 |
| woodster_ | SpamapS: yep, and barbican ain't one of them (yet?) :) | 19:51 |
| SpamapS | woodster_: and we're wondering if this group can help do the work to allow a coordination service and/or barbican to be on the same level as DB/MQ/Keystone/etc. | 19:51 |
| woodster_ | it seems security is one of those deployer-choice gray levels | 19:52 |
| SpamapS | woodster_: a ref arch is something I'd expect Barbican to provide for that, but there's also some practical matters that concern me. | 19:52 |
| SpamapS | Mostly, my fellow engineers who have evaluated Barbican tell me that it doesn't add much value without HSM's. | 19:52 |
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| woodster_ | some deployers want to talk to crypto resource directly (like KMIPs). So Castellan was introduced as a way to adapt projects to a key manager....barbican is but one plugin for that, but is not required | 19:53 |
| SpamapS | But if we make it part of the base services of OpenStack, we expect everybody, even thouse without HSM's, to deploy it. | 19:53 |
| dtroyer_zz | SpamapS: correct, but how much value does anything else have without HMS either? The idea being we need to assume the interfaces are availble and functional | 19:53 |
| SpamapS | dtroyer_zz: anything else has less complexity. | 19:53 |
| * dtroyer_zz types slowly | 19:53 | |
| woodster_ | SpamapS: well, TLS doesn't add much value unless you stop using self-signed certs. Barbican allows you to use a secure backend if you want. Out of the box it doesn't of course. | 19:54 |
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| dtroyer_zz | the win without the hardware is simply converging OpenStack services to a single solution | 19:54 |
| woodster_ | I think if you don't ever need secure storage of keys, then barbican isn't needed. But if you do someday... | 19:55 |
| SpamapS | TLS doesn't add _as much_ value w/ self signed certs. However, it offers a ton of value in limited context. You can pre-cache certs without PKI and get a lot of value. | 19:55 |
| rocky_g | dtroyer_zz, that's a big win, still | 19:55 |
| SpamapS | But Barbican without an HSM is just an audit logger, right? | 19:55 |
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| SpamapS | Hm | 19:56 |
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| dtroyer_zz | can it not store keys just as badly as Apache does on disk? | 19:56 |
| woodster_ | SpamapS: yeah I'd agree with that. | 19:56 |
| SpamapS | It can, and maybe having it there, already in the implementation, for those that need the HSM security, is enough to have those not interested in HSM's just use the less secure one. | 19:56 |
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| SpamapS | But there's a pretty valid argument that adding complexity is adding risk, which would be _the opposite_ of the goal of making Barbican a base service. | 19:57 |
| dtroyer_zz | I understood one motivation for doing this now was to help Nova and Cinder head toward the same thing, sooner than later | 19:57 |
| SpamapS | We're running low on time, but what's this Castellan thing? | 19:57 |
| woodster_ | so it seems that the choices are no barbican (store on disk) or spend $$$ for HSM for secure storage. I think those are valid choices for a deployer to make of course, and one solution to both would seem to be the best. I think a combo of Castellan (lightweight) with Barbican might be the best balance | 19:58 |
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| woodster_ | Castellan is a lightweight adapter to a key manager backend that projects can integrate with | 19:58 |
| dtroyer_zz | so good, we have the questions that need answering! | 19:58 |
| SpamapS | If we can't say Barbican is always going to be around for deployers, but Catellan is, is that a step forward? | 19:58 |
| woodster_ | barbican is not required if you use that | 19:58 |
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| SpamapS | But that only solves it for "under the cloud" problems | 19:59 |
| SpamapS | For users, they won't have a key manager. | 19:59 |
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| woodster_ | SpamapS: I think this would be great to discuss more in Spain | 19:59 |
| SpamapS | And so something like, say, Zaqar, can't depend on it | 19:59 |
| SpamapS | woodster_: Agreed | 19:59 |
| SpamapS | with 30s left we need to wrap up | 19:59 |
| SpamapS | woodster_: I hope you'll join us again next week and we can get your feedback on ttx's proposal | 19:59 |
| SpamapS | thanks everyone! | 19:59 |
| SpamapS | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Sep 22 20:00:03 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/arch_wg/2016/arch_wg.2016-09-22-19.02.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/arch_wg/2016/arch_wg.2016-09-22-19.02.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/arch_wg/2016/arch_wg.2016-09-22-19.02.log.html | 20:00 |
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