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| lbragstad | #startmeeting keystone | 16:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Mar 27 16:00:17 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is lbragstad. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 16:00 |
| cmurphy | o/ | 16:00 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 16:00 |
| lbragstad | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting | 16:00 |
| gagehugo | o/ | 16:00 |
| lbragstad | agenda ^ | 16:00 |
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| jgr | Hello | 16:00 |
| wxy| | o/ | 16:00 |
| lbragstad | ayoung, breton, cmurphy, dstanek, gagehugo, henrynash, hrybacki, knikolla, lamt, lbragstad, lwanderley, kmalloc, rderose, rodrigods, samueldmq, spilla, aselius, dpar, jdennis, ruan_he, wxy | 16:00 |
| hrybacki | o/ | 16:01 |
| knikolla | o/ | 16:01 |
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| kmalloc | o/ also zzzzzzzzzz | 16:02 |
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| lbragstad | #topic Rolling upgrade bug | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rolling upgrade bug (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 16:03 | |
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| lbragstad | someone dropped by the keystone channel this morning with another rolling upgrade bug that we suspected to be related to one that has been reported before | 16:03 |
| lbragstad | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1755906 | 16:03 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1755906 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Occasional deadlock during db_sync --contract during Newton to Pike live upgrade" [High,Confirmed] | 16:03 |
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| lbragstad | i threw it on the agenda before we reached a resolution | 16:04 |
| lbragstad | turned out to be a different problem | 16:04 |
| lbragstad | i'm goingt o try and dig into this relatively soon, pending spec reviews, | 16:04 |
| raildo | o/ | 16:04 |
| lbragstad | if anyone else is interested in tag-teaming this, let me know | 16:04 |
| lbragstad | we've had several people hit it (excluding the false positive this morning) | 16:05 |
| kmalloc | I can take a gander this morning. | 16:05 |
| lbragstad | thank kmalloc | 16:05 |
| kmalloc | I have a history of being able to dig out weird SQL edge cases.. :( | 16:05 |
| lbragstad | it's a pretty interesting upgrade problem | 16:05 |
| lbragstad | it consists of a surprisingly common edge case | 16:06 |
| kmalloc | I'll hit it post meeting. | 16:06 |
| lbragstad | sweet | 16:06 |
| lbragstad | #topic specifications | 16:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "specifications (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 16:06 | |
| lbragstad | #info reminder that specification proposal freeze is april 20th | 16:06 |
| kmalloc | MFA receipt: ayoung needs to look at it and +2/+A it :P | 16:06 |
| kmalloc | Unless someone already +a'd it | 16:07 |
| lbragstad | I +2'd it | 16:07 |
| kmalloc | Yeah, I think it is ready. | 16:07 |
| kmalloc | Saw your score on it. | 16:07 |
| lbragstad | I didn't +A it because we need to fix up the shuffling of specs/trello boards/etc... | 16:07 |
| lbragstad | i can propose a follow on to do that and then +A it | 16:07 |
| lbragstad | otherwise - yeah, exciting to see the needle move there | 16:08 |
| kmalloc | And, we need to also do the whitelist one. | 16:08 |
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| lbragstad | also - we need to come to consensus on application credentials | 16:08 |
| kmalloc | Which is very close if not ready as well. | 16:08 |
| lbragstad | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/396331/ | 16:08 |
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| jgr | Yeah... | 16:09 |
| lbragstad | i think the details are fine, but we need to make sure we document and reach consensus on a attribute name for it | 16:09 |
| jgr | So I'm not terrible wedded to the term "whitelist" if we really must change it. | 16:09 |
| lbragstad | i wanted to ping adam this morning, because he needs to be a part of the conversation, but he wasn't online | 16:10 |
| kmalloc | Also, whitelist is fine | 16:10 |
| kmalloc | No reason to block it on that | 16:10 |
| jgr | I still think getting rid of it is over the top, but if the consensus turns out otherwise I'm ok with changing it. | 16:10 |
| kmalloc | It *is* a whitelist | 16:10 |
| hrybacki | he's on on internal this morning either | 16:10 |
| kmalloc | So, let me just take a stand and say we don't need to change the term. | 16:10 |
| kmalloc | Really. | 16:10 |
| lbragstad | regardless of the term, we *need* to document the justification for it and provide supporting evidence | 16:10 |
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| lbragstad | in a public forum | 16:11 |
| cmurphy | I think capability list is more descriptive | 16:11 |
| kmalloc | Except it isn't imo | 16:11 |
| kmalloc | It isn't a strictly defined list of capabilities | 16:11 |
| cmurphy | isn't it? | 16:12 |
| kmalloc | It is a fluid list of allowed uris | 16:12 |
| lbragstad | does the usage of wildcards make it fluid? | 16:12 |
| lbragstad | or ! strict? | 16:12 |
| kmalloc | That doesnt really sound like a capability list to me, it is an opt-in restriction of allowed resource actions | 16:12 |
| kmalloc | That is a whitelist (almost to a tee) | 16:13 |
| kmalloc | If it was "boot vm" and "make volume", etc strictly defined, it would be more capability list | 16:13 |
| kmalloc | But, due to architecture, that isnt really doable. | 16:13 |
| kmalloc | It could still be "white listed actions" or whitelisted capabilities | 16:14 |
| kmalloc | This acts like a whitelist, if it is a duck, call it a duck :) | 16:14 |
| jgr | Yeah. Problem is, there's this tweet from this Microsoft guy out there who considers it an unfriendly term :-/ | 16:15 |
| kmalloc | But that is just my stance (and I wouldn't change my view of the core of the spec being ready if we change it) | 16:15 |
| kmalloc | We won't make everyone happy. | 16:15 |
| jgr | I'm not terribly happy with changing either, but I can live with it if we really must. | 16:16 |
| hrybacki | I think documenting the reasoning behind choosing (whichever) term is the most important thing. Everything is in the context tbh | 16:16 |
| kmalloc | Why is it "unfriendly" (that is a bad justification for not using the term) without more info. | 16:16 |
| lbragstad | again - i think we need to involve adam in this part of the discussion | 16:17 |
| kmalloc | Anyway, just gave my quick $0.002 that could be used for calling it a whitelist, feel free to steal it/use it/give ot not give credit. | 16:17 |
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| jgr | This guy pretty much sums up my take on it: https://twitter.com/dtoebe/status/976977954608594944 | 16:18 |
| kmalloc | lbragstad: we can ping him, but he has to be more available than drive by reviewing if he is going to be a blocker for specs.. | 16:18 |
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| jgr | There are people out there thinking the term is racially charged. | 16:18 |
| lbragstad | jgr: you found some level of documention by a linguist, right? | 16:19 |
| jgr | lbragstad: yes, just a second | 16:19 |
| jgr | https://www.quora.com/Is-the-term-blacklist-racist | 16:19 |
| kmalloc | jgr: I am not going to make you change the term for that tweet. This is not worth justifying on our end imo for this reason. | 16:19 |
| lbragstad | and that is included in the review it looks like | 16:20 |
| kmalloc | Can we discuss if the term is descriptive and correct, not if it is racially charged.. | 16:21 |
| lbragstad | i think that is getting to cmurphy's input | 16:21 |
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| jgr | "descriptive" (and more easily understandable to a non-native English speaker than an awkward circumlocution) is why I'd like to retain it, yes. | 16:22 |
| hrybacki | jgr: are you advocating for a term synonymous with 'white list' but could not be considered insensitive? | 16:22 |
| kmalloc | hrybacki: please drop this line. | 16:23 |
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| kmalloc | Let's get away from the insensitive or not part of the convo, it is not relevant to this part of the discussion. | 16:23 |
| hrybacki | he's the spec author. I'm trying to provide a solution that meets your and his desires here | 16:23 |
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| jgr | hrybacki: I'm not advocating for a synonym (or circumlocution). But I'm willing to live with it so as not to hold up the spec (which I'd like to see land) over terminology. | 16:24 |
| kmalloc | lets drop the line of questioning/assessment based upon the "unfriendliness" | 16:25 |
| kmalloc | refocus the convo | 16:25 |
| kmalloc | cmurphy: do you feel capability list is a better term (for technical/descriptive reasons) | 16:26 |
| kmalloc | and enough so to warrant changing away from whitelist. | 16:26 |
| kmalloc | hrybacki: ^ same to you. | 16:26 |
| cmurphy | i do think it is better for technical reasons | 16:26 |
| knikolla | access list? | 16:26 |
| kmalloc | can you expand a little bit. and i'm happy to have the change with that reasoning. | 16:27 |
| cmurphy | whitelist to me doesn't describe what is being listed | 16:27 |
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| cmurphy | capability list to me is all the things this app cred is capable of | 16:28 |
| kmalloc | so, as i understand, you're seeing it as whitelist is a modifier, it could be a "capability whitelist" but "whitelist" is insufficient? | 16:28 |
| kmalloc | [the converse of the implementation in the spec would be a capability blacklist] | 16:28 |
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| cmurphy | sure | 16:29 |
| cmurphy | but we're never going to have a blacklist so it doesn't even entirely make sense to have whitelist when we're never going to have the converse | 16:30 |
| kmalloc | right - i'm just clarifying | 16:30 |
| lbragstad | fwiw - if capability is more descriptive of boot_vm, it's not to say we won't get to that in the future either | 16:30 |
| kmalloc | on why we should change, that whitelist is insufficient | 16:31 |
| lbragstad | even though the system doesn't work that way today | 16:31 |
| kmalloc | as a term. not that we would have the inverse supported | 16:31 |
| kmalloc | s/insufficient/insufficient in itself/ | 16:31 |
| cmurphy | sure, but that's another reason why i think whitelist is inappropriate, is because it implies the converse is possible | 16:31 |
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| lbragstad | that's true... | 16:35 |
| kmalloc | cmurphy: that is fair | 16:35 |
| kmalloc | i like that it is called a whitelist, because the functionality is that of a whitelist | 16:35 |
| lbragstad | that's not to say we can't describe it as a whitelist in the documentation | 16:36 |
| kmalloc | if the documentation clearly says it acts as a whitelist | 16:36 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 16:36 |
| kmalloc | i'm thinking that is enough for me. | 16:36 |
| cmurphy | i'm fine with that | 16:36 |
| kmalloc | jgr: ^ would that be good? | 16:36 |
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| kmalloc | jgr: it hits both things, pretty clearly. | 16:36 |
| lbragstad | cmurphy: have you left feedback about capability lists in the review? | 16:37 |
| cmurphy | no, i can | 16:37 |
| lbragstad | just double checking | 16:37 |
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| jgr | kmalloc: so "capability list" and document "it acts as a whitelist"? | 16:37 |
| jgr | kmalloc: (sorry, the discussion has been going back and forth quite a bit so I want to be sure I got the conclusion right) | 16:38 |
| cmurphy | i think that's the conclusion | 16:38 |
| lbragstad | jgr: ++ | 16:39 |
| jgr | Sure, that works for me. | 16:39 |
| lbragstad | mainly because the term "capability" is in the name, and it is descriptive, and that it doesn't imply we support the inverse | 16:39 |
| jgr | I think I may actually have called it a "list of capabilities" back when I proposed this spec in Barcelona... | 16:39 |
| lbragstad | cmurphy: kmalloc correct me if i'm wrong | 16:39 |
| cmurphy | i agree with that | 16:41 |
| lbragstad | cool - we have things to do with that then | 16:41 |
| lbragstad | let's move on | 16:41 |
| lbragstad | there are two specs proposed for hierarchical limits | 16:41 |
| lbragstad | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/540803/ | 16:41 |
| lbragstad | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/549766/ | 16:42 |
| lbragstad | eyes on both of those would be good | 16:42 |
| kmalloc | lbragstad: i also gave adam a direct response saying "don't use twitter as a source of knowledge and be careful of injecting things into the review process" | 16:42 |
| lbragstad | one of them is actually CERN's write-up and encapsulates a lot of what we talked about in Dublin | 16:42 |
| lbragstad | the other (written by wxy|) does a good job of laying out a bigger picture | 16:43 |
| wxy| | i'll refresh them tomorrow, may merge them into one? | 16:44 |
| kmalloc | jgr: please do not encapsulate any of the non-tech bits into the spec or documentation (insensitive/not/whatever) from this convo, it doesn't belong there, we can defend ourselves if needed, but it's not something we want in our docs. | 16:44 |
| lbragstad | wxy|: yeah - that'd be good | 16:44 |
| kmalloc | jgr: or in the spec itself, the comments on the review are enough/sufficient. | 16:44 |
| lbragstad | wxy|: some of those action items might be better as bugs, too? | 16:45 |
| wxy| | sure | 16:45 |
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| wxy| | and don't forget Sean's https://review.openstack.org/#/c/441203/ | 16:45 |
| lbragstad | the specification for JWT needs eyes, specifically around the whole encryption/signing topic | 16:46 |
| jgr | kmalloc: of course. I wasn't planning on doing that... | 16:46 |
| lbragstad | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/541903/ | 16:46 |
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| kmalloc | jgr: just wanted to be sure :) | 16:46 |
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| cmurphy | I think we're deferring on Sean's for now since we're focusing on just the CERN model | 16:46 |
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| lbragstad | Sean's or johnthetubaguy ? | 16:47 |
| wxy| | cmurphy: could that be a backlog, not for Rocky? | 16:47 |
| wxy| | Since some model seems helpful as well. | 16:47 |
| cmurphy | i'm talking about this one https://review.openstack.org/#/c/441203/ we're not going to accomplish all those models this cycle so yes keep it in the backlog | 16:48 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 16:48 |
| kmalloc | ++ | 16:48 |
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| wxy| | cool. that works for me. | 16:49 |
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| lbragstad | alright - bumping the reviews topic since we're running short on time | 16:50 |
| lbragstad | #topic help wanted | 16:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "help wanted (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 16:50 | |
| lbragstad | cmurphy: o/ | 16:50 |
| cmurphy | oh right | 16:50 |
| cmurphy | so i had this idea | 16:50 |
| cmurphy | the tc has a "help wanted" list to try to constructively drive contributions | 16:50 |
| cmurphy | i thought we could do something similar for keystone | 16:50 |
| cmurphy | we have a lot of driveby contributions for like typo fixes or url fixes or PTI updates | 16:51 |
| lbragstad | like - not add keystone as an item on the tc's help wanted list? | 16:51 |
| cmurphy | we could steer those toward the little things that we really want help on | 16:51 |
| cmurphy | right, not add keystone to the tc's, just have our own list | 16:51 |
| lbragstad | ah | 16:51 |
| gagehugo | that would be nice | 16:51 |
| lbragstad | yeah.. | 16:51 |
| cmurphy | so like updating the docs to conform to the doc team's writing guide would be one thing | 16:52 |
| cmurphy | fixing up usage of deprecated things in keystone would be one | 16:52 |
| cmurphy | fixing up usage of deprecated keystone things in devstack and other projects would be one | 16:52 |
| cmurphy | i'm sure we could come up with others | 16:52 |
| lbragstad | i'm in favor of trying it... | 16:53 |
| lbragstad | i also wouldn't be opposed to adding keystone to the tc's help wanted list | 16:53 |
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| lbragstad | i know we've talked about that in the past | 16:53 |
| hrybacki | could we not do both? | 16:53 |
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| knikolla | ++ | 16:53 |
| hrybacki | or use one to drive potential contributors to the other, more formalized list of asks | 16:53 |
| lbragstad | there isn't anything saying we can't | 16:53 |
| lbragstad | at least not to my knowledge | 16:54 |
| hrybacki | 'two nets catch more fish' or something | 16:54 |
| hrybacki | not sure if that would be confusing or step on someone's toes though. cmurphy probably has best insights to that end | 16:54 |
| lbragstad | in the past i was trying to be conscious of adding keystone to the tc list because i didn't want to take the opportunity from another project that needs more help | 16:55 |
| cmurphy | my main concern right now was just with turning drive-by contributions into something constructive | 16:55 |
| hrybacki | ack. cmurphy we could spend some time grooming that list today during OO | 16:55 |
| cmurphy | if we added keystone to the tc's help wanted list that would be more focused on larger-scoped needs | 16:55 |
| cmurphy | our specs backlog etc | 16:56 |
| hrybacki | okay, that makes sense | 16:56 |
| lbragstad | that makes sense | 16:56 |
| * lbragstad thinks unified limits and policy stuff should go on there | 16:56 | |
| cmurphy | exactly | 16:56 |
| lbragstad | we'll need to make sure we keep the list fresh | 16:57 |
| lbragstad | maybe review it during retrospectives or something like that | 16:57 |
| hrybacki | lbragstad: we can refresh it on a weekly basis as part of a regular meeting | 16:57 |
| hrybacki | or that | 16:57 |
| lbragstad | that too | 16:57 |
| lbragstad | I don't have a preference | 16:58 |
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| cmurphy | the things i have in mind are sort of ongoing tasks, like fixing up deprecated things | 16:58 |
| hrybacki | ack. Maintaining a high level list of ongoing areas like ^^ and then creating bugs for specific, actionable items (that would obviously change as we progress) could be nice? | 16:59 |
| cmurphy | ++ | 16:59 |
| lbragstad | i think so | 16:59 |
| lbragstad | i'm all for it | 16:59 |
| hrybacki | I'm thinking bugs for smaller actionables to help entice folks | 16:59 |
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| lbragstad | < 1 minute left | 16:59 |
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| lbragstad | we can pick things up in office hours | 17:00 |
| lbragstad | thank all | 17:00 |
| lbragstad | #endmeeting | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Mar 27 17:00:12 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2018/keystone.2018-03-27-16.00.html | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2018/keystone.2018-03-27-16.00.txt | 17:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2018/keystone.2018-03-27-16.00.log.html | 17:00 |
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| kmalloc | lbragstad: the mysql and pgsql errors are different | 18:00 |
| kmalloc | whoopse, wrong channel | 18:00 |
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