Wednesday, 2011-05-11

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comstudsoren awake yet?08:30
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AlexNeefsalv-orlando: would it be possible to get your copy of the network api as a word doc?21:53
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salv-orlandoAlexNeef: yes, sure, I will post it on the wiki page21:57
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dendrobatesdid I get the time right?21:59
salv-orlandoAlexNeef: done21:59
danwenthello folks, let's identify ourselves so we know if we can get this party started.22:00
danwentthis is Dan Wendlandt from Nicira22:00
AlexNeefAlex Neefus from Mellanox22:00
midodanGood morning/evening.  This is Dan Dumitriu from Midokura.22:00
openstackMeeting started Wed May 11 22:00:25 2011 UTC.  The chair is dendrobates. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.22:00
somikbeheraHello all, this Somik Behera from Nicira22:00
hisaharuHi, Hisaharu Ishii from NTT22:00
AlexNeefAlex Neefus from Mellanox22:00
salv-orlandoSalvatore Orlando from Citrix22:00
ryu25Ryu Ishimoto from Midokura22:00
dendrobatesRick from Cisco22:01
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NottaSealJeff Timbs from Dell22:01
danwentIs troy here?22:01
dendrobatesdanwent: he said he might not make it22:01
danwentah, that's right.22:02
danwentErik C. is still out-of-office as well.22:02
danwentsounds like a quorum?22:02
dendrobates#topic Launchpad update22:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Launchpad update"22:02
dendrobatesWe now have a project group22:03
dendrobatesit is called netstack, because the LP team objected to our original name22:03
dendrobatesI converted network-service to the quantum project22:03
dendrobatesI also created a couple of teams22:04
danwentok.  i think donabe blueprints are currently still under network-service22:04
dendrobatesnetstack-admins and netstack22:04
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dendrobatesI'll move them22:04
danwenthopefully ram can move them.  Ram, you here?22:04
danwentah, ok.22:04
dendrobatesDan and I are admins on the teams22:04
salv-orlandonetwork-service is quantum now, is that correct?22:04
danwentI think the melange code is currently under network-service ... will talk with him about what he wants to do with that.22:05
dendrobatesWe need everyone Launchpad IDs so we can add you to the main team22:05
dendrobatesdanwent: I agree, pehaps that should be on the mailing list22:05
somikbeheradendrobates: lets do LP ids by email after meeting?22:05
AlexNeefare we getting a seperate email list22:06
dendrobatesso if you could send your launchpad id's to rick@openstrack.org22:06
AlexNeeffiltering throught he primary openstack one for netwrok related items is difficult22:06
danwentplan is to stay on main one until week get kicked off for talking to much22:06
dendrobatesThe openstack team wants all new projects to stay on the main list.22:06
danwentyeah, agree, but we have to balance that with openness and communication with the nova folks.22:06
dendrobatesI think they will be moving nova off shortly22:07
danwent(my comment was directly at Alex)22:07
dendrobatesI also added a few of the openstack infrastructure team members to netstack-admins22:07
dendrobatesmodred, ttx, and Soren22:07
dendrobatesthey will setup all the integration stuff for us22:08
dendrobatesI did not create a netstack-core team yet22:08
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dendrobatesI felt we needed to discuss it more22:08
dendrobatesand how to seed it22:09
somikbeheraone correction: rick's email is not "" for folks who jus t copied and pasted email that was just mentioned.22:09
dendrobatesIt's midnight here22:09
salv-orlandooh and they serve good beer in budapest ;-)22:09
danwentI think membership of the core team should be driven by who has dedicated time to the project, which is a bit hard to tell when we don't have code yet.22:10
dendrobatesIs there anyone else that would like to be on the admin team?  It is mostly to configure LP22:10
dendrobatesI agree, but we need to seed it, we did the same with Nova and swift22:10
danwentI'm in favor of waiting a bit to define the core until we really need one.  At this point, if there is a disagreement on code, we'll have to sort it out like we did at the summit.22:10
danwentis this a launchpad requirement or do you just feel its the right thing to do?22:11
dendrobatesnot a LP requirement, but would keep us following the same process as the rest of openstack22:12
danwentI guess I feel that we're a little different in that most other projects arrived with an existing team and codebase (at least nova did)22:12
dendrobatesthe only difference between devs and core devs, is that their reviews count for merging22:13
danwentmy guess is that by the time we actually have quantum up and running, everyone will know who put time in and there will be consensus on who the "core" is.22:13
adjohnIn that case, who would be responsible for approving merges?22:13
dendrobatesand all the integration tools are written with that framework in mind.22:14
danwentI would expect that we assign blueprints to responsible people and the person in charge with a blueprint manages changes to that code.22:14
adjohnmakes sense22:14
dendrobatesI see a problem with that22:15
salv-orlandoI agree it is too early to properly define a core, but we probably need a minimal one in order to identify the people who will approve the first branches landing in the trunks22:15
dendrobatesSince there can be multiple blueprints for code base with multiple approvers...22:15
dendrobateswe would have different stds for the code22:16
danwentsure.  all I'm saying is that practically speaking for a project like quantum there will be 5-10 people coding to start.22:16
dendrobatesif we have multiple core devs and an an agreed upon std, things will get less out of control22:16
danwentIf other people aren't happy with your branch, you probably shouldn't push it.22:16
dendrobatesI prefer that we seed, core-devs, but if other want to proceed differently, I'm ok with that.22:17
salv-orlandohow will be the review process without core-devs?22:17
dendrobatesWe need to be sure we enforce coding stds though22:17
dendrobatessalv-orlando I am not sure22:18
danwentI'd say you send it out for review both others registered on the blueprint.22:19
dendrobatesI would probably just say we all know our orgs, let's just make our sr devs core-devs and trust each other.   That is what we had to do with nova22:19
dendrobatesNone of us really knew the other devs22:19
danwentI'm all for trust + open communication.22:19
danwentand avoiding situations were we try to push code we think/know someone else will not like22:20
danwentif we can get the base network service out by collaborating, this project won't succeed :)22:20
danwent(oops, didn't mean to say "network service", that's a bad word now)22:20
dendrobatesWe need to figure out code review and merging if we do not ave core devs, but I am willing to put some thought into it.22:21
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dendrobatesLet me ask mordred to make sure it will not break tany of the infrastructure stuff22:22
danwentsounds good.22:22
salv-orlandosounds a good plan to me.22:22
dendrobatesbasically no core-devs == everyone is core dev22:22
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danwentyup, everyone will doing do fun things like reviews :)22:23
salv-orlandoat least until we gain enough critical mass22:23
romain_lengletit doesn't seem practical / desirable to have a large core dev team right now, so how about appointing a small number of core devs right now, but have them review code in the open, with help from everyone22:23
danwentand discussions and write code.22:23
dendrobatesWe should still require 2 approve reviews to merge code22:23
danwentdendrobates: that sounds good.22:23
adjohnnon-core devs are always welcome to do reviews in nova22:23
dendrobatesadjohn: even encouraged22:23
danwentWe have a lot of blueprints to implement == lots of changes to prove you want to be a core-dev :)22:24
dendrobatesSo I prefer seeding a core dev group, but will happily bow to the will of the group22:24
romain_lengletso start with a small team of core devs who just delegate code reviews to everyone else can do it?22:24
snaiksatwhy not start with the people who have done the most number of code-commits/reviews till date (in openstack) as the core-reviewers/approvers?22:25
snaiksatI meant in OpenStack and and who are part of this group22:25
danwentI think everyone is welcomed to review code... as we said.22:26
snaiksatI believe they would be in a better position to handle this at least to begin with22:26
snaiksatgiven their prior experience22:26
danwentDefinitely happy to use their experience for reviews22:26
dendrobatesWe will have to decide at some point how to add core devs.  I don't think it will get any easier.22:26
danwentI think the point is that we need to make sure everyone has a chance to approve/disapprove of the code.  Eventually that won't scale, but for now I think its where we need to start.22:27
dendrobatesBut we can work on a policy over the next few months22:27
dendrobatesdanwent: why do you think that won't scale22:27
danwentsorry, let me rephrase.22:28
AlexNeefare the core-devs for the entire netstack project or per subproject?22:28
danwenteveryone will always have the opportunity to do reviews.  At some point, the review burden becomes larger and you need core devs who have a focused responsibility on reviewing.22:28
dendrobatesAlexNeef: I would suggest for the entire subproject22:29
danwentAlexNeef: subproject, i agree22:29
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AlexNeefentire subproject meaning all of netstack?22:29
adjohndanwent: that's when you add more core devs, right?22:29
salv-orlando"entire subproject" is a bit ambiguous22:29
AlexNeefor seperate core-devs for quantum, dunabe, etc22:29
danwentsubproject == quantum22:29
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danwentsubproject == donabe22:30
danwentI think22:30
dendrobatesI suggest that we have one core dev group to encourage cross pollination22:30
danwentadjohn:  yup.  I think the point is that once a project is bootstrapped, the responsibility for reviewing is not just on "everyone" but falls particularly on the "core-devs".22:31
dendrobatesanother option is that we make all initial participants core-devs22:31
dendrobatesthat is basically what nova did22:32
dendrobateswe then culled the list later as some people did not want the responsibility22:32
AlexNeefthat sounds nice and democratic to me22:32
salv-orlandodendrobates: that would probably be the only viable one if it comes up that LP requires a core team for the review process22:32
dendrobatesThat worked for nova with no issues22:33
danwentI'm fine with that, as long as people don't try to "pack" core-devs :)22:33
danwentmy assumption would be that if you're a core dev, you're actively working on a blueprint defined on the project?22:34
dendrobatesalso, after the seeding new devs weren;t automatically core devs, regardless of what company they wotrked for22:34
danwentor reviwing code?22:34
salv-orlandodanwent: I think the "seeding" dendrobates referred to was to avoid "packing"22:34
dendrobatesdanwent: I agree22:34
danwentgreat.  my only real concern here is that people are primarily concerned with getting code written, not "status" :)22:35
dendrobatesdanwent: and they should be actual developers, not managers, or architects that will not conrtibute22:35
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danwentyes, code22:35
dendrobatesdanwent: hopefully people will realize that it is a responsibility not a status22:35
danwentyes, reviews are a great way to encourage this view22:36
dendrobatesnova has mandatory review days for core devs to remind them22:36
danwentGreat.  I'm fine for starting with everyone in as a core or no one in as a core, as long we keep this list closely in sync with reality22:37
AlexNeefI think that's a good idea, a forcing function22:37
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dendrobatesso can one person from each org make a list of the devs that should be added?22:37
dendrobatesI can take Cisco22:38
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dendrobateswe should also keep it small22:38
dendrobatesi.e Cisco should not list 50 dev22:38
dendrobatesI think we should have a limit22:38
salv-orlandoI'd say: max(number_org,subprojects*2)22:38
somikbeheraso these devs should be reviewing as well as coding? if they are doing that I assume the list should be small...22:39
dendrobatessomikbehera: yes22:39
danwentOk, are we good on this topic?22:40
dendrobatessalv-orlando: can you take Citrix22:40
salv-orlandodendrobates: yes22:40
dendrobatesand troy rackspace22:40
dendrobatesand who for midokura22:40
danwentI'd love to get a chance to talk about some of the blueprints so people can get cracking on code.22:40
AlexNeefI will do Mellanox22:40
hisaharuI can take NTT22:41
AlexNeefshould we send names to rick again?22:41
romain_lengletdendrobates: at least me (romain_lenglet on LP)22:41
dendrobatesHow about me and Dan22:41
dendrobatesThat way if I fall into the Danube tomorrow dan can still make thechanges22:42
romain_lengletdendrobates: (actually my LP login is "romain-lenglet", sorry)22:42
danwentI'm still a launchpad newbie, so please be careful rick :)22:42
dendrobatesdanwent: you;ll get the hang of it  :)22:43
dendrobatesI think we can start asking ttx for admin help as well22:43
dendrobatescrap we talked about that for a long time.22:44
danwentOk, can we talk about blueprints really quick?  I want to give people a status update on the quantum stuff.22:44
dendrobates#topic blueprints22:44
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints"22:44
danwentWe've defined a set of quantum blueprints, mainly based on discussions at the summit.22:44
danwenttroy from rackspace extracted a lot of "starter code" from glance for melange.22:45
danwentwe're looking to leverage that for quantum as well.  this is base code for wsgi, unit tests, etc.22:45
salv-orlandoWoops, I was doing the same thing :-)22:45
danwentsalv-orlando:  let's sync up on this.22:46
danwentvish had some specific instructions about what to take/not take.22:46
dendrobatesI would like to revisit that with vish22:46
dendrobatesand make a case to take more22:47
dendrobatesdanwent: oops, I'm talking about mellange22:47
danwentfor reference:
danwentthis is the branch of what troy borrowed from glance.22:47
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salv-orlandowhere Vishy's instructions sent on the ML?22:47
danwentsomik is taking a crack as changing names, etc.22:48
danwentmost of them were at the summit on friday.22:48
danwentrick, this was also discussed at the PTL meeting, right?22:48
vishytermie and jaypipes are working on skeleton frameworks22:49
dendrobatesNot sure, I did not attend.  I'll ask ttx22:49
danwentnot sure if anything useful came out of that though.22:49
vishybut I don't think they will be ready soon enough22:49
* vishy is lurking :)22:49
danwentmuch appreciated22:49
vishyi would suggest getting started and if the skeletons make it soon, you can convert code over22:49
danwentsounds good.22:50
danwentsalv-orlando: can you take a look at the stuff in the branch i sent out and see if it is compatible with what you were thinking?22:50
danwent(its for melange, but we were planning on using much the same logic for quantum)22:51
danwentI'd suggest we first focus on getting the API spec solid and make sure everyone is on board.22:51
salv-orlandodanwent: at a first glance all the common stuff (db, test, wsgi) is in that branch22:51
debo_osfor the API to be solidified it would be good to align with the use cases ...22:52
danwentthat's the current blueprint spec.  Basically copied from summit slides.  Salvatore's proposal is attached.  I think its a good place to start the feedback process.22:52
danwentsalv-orlando: do you have use cases in the doc?22:52
danwentI remember some sample use cases at the end?22:53
salv-orlandoyes, they are still there22:53
danwenthopefully we can expand on that as questions arise.22:53
danwentI created a etherpad to track some feedback on had on the doc:
danwentnot sure if there is a better way to do this (launchpad whiteboard did not seem to have a good notion of identify)22:54
danwentidentify -> identity22:54
AlexNeefI asked salv for a word copy of the doc and was going to embed my ideas and comments22:55
dendrobatesdanwent: no etherpad is better22:55
danwentok, let's go with etherpad.  Nice and public :)22:55
AlexNeefis there a better way to do the review, i agree the white board is tricky22:55
danwentAlexNeef: is etherpad ok?22:55
danwentnot as easy as MS word comments, i agree, but its hard for MS word comments to be public.22:56
AlexNeefit's hard to refer to certain parts fo the document22:56
salv-orlandoI can convert the doc in a wiki page with anchors22:56
danwentyeah, anyone have a good solution?  does google docs do comments?  could make it a public document?22:56
danwentor that works.22:56
salv-orlandoso in the ehterpad you can put a link to the point of the doc you are referring to22:56
AlexNeefThe wiki route sounds good to me22:57
debo_os It does22:57
dendrobatessalv-orlando: I think that will work well22:57
AlexNeefthen we are already generating documentation22:57
danwentsalv-orlando: if you're willing to do the work, it seems like a good solution.22:57
danwentI think our API spec should eventually grow into a developer doc like
danwentIf you can only have to create it once, that might be a win.22:58
dendrobateswe should volunteer Eric to own that, he's good at it.22:58
danwentErik Carlin?22:58
danwentor another eric/k?22:58
dendrobatessorry, Erik C22:59
danwentsounds reasonable.22:59
danwentI'm also looking for people to stand up and take on additional blueprints.22:59
danwentkeystone integration, api extension model, etc.22:59
danwentapi clients (CLI + GUI), etc.23:00
dendrobatesdanwent: cisco will probably take on some of that23:00
dendrobatesjust let us know where the gaps are23:00
danwentdendrobates: great, much appreciated.23:00
danwentSo please let you interest in working on areas be known, and I'll try to track what gaps still need to be filled.23:00
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danwentlooks like we're about out of time.... I have a 4 o'clock meeting.23:01
danwentother topics to discuss?23:01
dendrobatesby the way,  you can join the netstack team yourselves23:01
dendrobatesso everyone go and join23:02
dendrobatesit is open23:02
dendrobatesIt's 1AM here, so nothing from me23:02
somikbeheracool! team members gotta code and review code.. right? ;)23:02
AlexNeefi don't see that option23:02
dendrobatessomikbehera: no this is the general team, anyone can join23:03
danwentThanks folks!23:03
somikbeheraah.. ic23:03
dendrobateswrong URL23:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: | Minutes:"23:03
openstackMeeting ended Wed May 11 23:03:34 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)23:03
openstackMinutes (text):
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salv-orlandogoodnight !23:03
somikbeherabye everyone!23:04
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