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| comstud | soren awake yet? | 08:30 |
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| AlexNeef | salv-orlando: would it be possible to get your copy of the network api as a word doc? | 21:53 |
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| salv-orlando | AlexNeef: yes, sure, I will post it on the wiki page | 21:57 |
| AlexNeef | thanks! | 21:58 |
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| dendrobates | did I get the time right? | 21:59 |
| salv-orlando | AlexNeef: done | 21:59 |
| danwent | hello folks, let's identify ourselves so we know if we can get this party started. | 22:00 |
| dendrobates | o/ | 22:00 |
| danwent | this is Dan Wendlandt from Nicira | 22:00 |
| AlexNeef | Alex Neefus from Mellanox | 22:00 |
| midodan | Good morning/evening. This is Dan Dumitriu from Midokura. | 22:00 |
| dendrobates | #startmeeting | 22:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 11 22:00:25 2011 UTC. The chair is dendrobates. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. | 22:00 |
| somikbehera | Hello all, this Somik Behera from Nicira | 22:00 |
| hisaharu | Hi, Hisaharu Ishii from NTT | 22:00 |
| AlexNeef | Alex Neefus from Mellanox | 22:00 |
| salv-orlando | Salvatore Orlando from Citrix | 22:00 |
| ryu25 | Ryu Ishimoto from Midokura | 22:00 |
| dendrobates | Rick from Cisco | 22:01 |
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| NottaSeal | Jeff Timbs from Dell | 22:01 |
| danwent | Is troy here? | 22:01 |
| dendrobates | danwent: he said he might not make it | 22:01 |
| danwent | ah, that's right. | 22:02 |
| danwent | Erik C. is still out-of-office as well. | 22:02 |
| danwent | sounds like a quorum? | 22:02 |
| dendrobates | #topic Launchpad update | 22:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Launchpad update" | 22:02 | |
| dendrobates | We now have a project group | 22:03 |
| dendrobates | it is called netstack, because the LP team objected to our original name | 22:03 |
| dendrobates | I converted network-service to the quantum project | 22:03 |
| dendrobates | I also created a couple of teams | 22:04 |
| danwent | ok. i think donabe blueprints are currently still under network-service | 22:04 |
| dendrobates | netstack-admins and netstack | 22:04 |
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| dendrobates | I'll move them | 22:04 |
| danwent | hopefully ram can move them. Ram, you here? | 22:04 |
| danwent | ah, ok. | 22:04 |
| dendrobates | Dan and I are admins on the teams | 22:04 |
| salv-orlando | network-service is quantum now, is that correct? | 22:04 |
| dendrobates | yes | 22:04 |
| danwent | I think the melange code is currently under network-service ... will talk with him about what he wants to do with that. | 22:05 |
| dendrobates | We need everyone Launchpad IDs so we can add you to the main team | 22:05 |
| dendrobates | danwent: I agree, pehaps that should be on the mailing list | 22:05 |
| somikbehera | dendrobates: lets do LP ids by email after meeting? | 22:05 |
| AlexNeef | are we getting a seperate email list | 22:06 |
| dendrobates | so if you could send your launchpad id's to rick@openstrack.org | 22:06 |
| AlexNeef | filtering throught he primary openstack one for netwrok related items is difficult | 22:06 |
| danwent | plan is to stay on main one until week get kicked off for talking to much | 22:06 |
| dendrobates | The openstack team wants all new projects to stay on the main list. | 22:06 |
| danwent | yeah, agree, but we have to balance that with openness and communication with the nova folks. | 22:06 |
| dendrobates | I think they will be moving nova off shortly | 22:07 |
| danwent | (my comment was directly at Alex) | 22:07 |
| dendrobates | I also added a few of the openstack infrastructure team members to netstack-admins | 22:07 |
| dendrobates | modred, ttx, and Soren | 22:07 |
| dendrobates | they will setup all the integration stuff for us | 22:08 |
| danwent | great | 22:08 |
| dendrobates | I did not create a netstack-core team yet | 22:08 |
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| dendrobates | I felt we needed to discuss it more | 22:08 |
| danwent | agreed | 22:09 |
| dendrobates | and how to seed it | 22:09 |
| somikbehera | one correction: rick's email is rick@openstack.org not "openstrack.org" for folks who jus t copied and pasted email that was just mentioned. | 22:09 |
| dendrobates | :) | 22:09 |
| dendrobates | It's midnight here | 22:09 |
| salv-orlando | oh and they serve good beer in budapest ;-) | 22:09 |
| dendrobates | :) | 22:09 |
| danwent | I think membership of the core team should be driven by who has dedicated time to the project, which is a bit hard to tell when we don't have code yet. | 22:10 |
| dendrobates | Is there anyone else that would like to be on the admin team? It is mostly to configure LP | 22:10 |
| dendrobates | I agree, but we need to seed it, we did the same with Nova and swift | 22:10 |
| danwent | I'm in favor of waiting a bit to define the core until we really need one. At this point, if there is a disagreement on code, we'll have to sort it out like we did at the summit. | 22:10 |
| danwent | is this a launchpad requirement or do you just feel its the right thing to do? | 22:11 |
| dendrobates | not a LP requirement, but would keep us following the same process as the rest of openstack | 22:12 |
| danwent | I guess I feel that we're a little different in that most other projects arrived with an existing team and codebase (at least nova did) | 22:12 |
| dendrobates | the only difference between devs and core devs, is that their reviews count for merging | 22:13 |
| dendrobates | true | 22:13 |
| danwent | my guess is that by the time we actually have quantum up and running, everyone will know who put time in and there will be consensus on who the "core" is. | 22:13 |
| adjohn | In that case, who would be responsible for approving merges? | 22:13 |
| dendrobates | and all the integration tools are written with that framework in mind. | 22:14 |
| danwent | I would expect that we assign blueprints to responsible people and the person in charge with a blueprint manages changes to that code. | 22:14 |
| adjohn | makes sense | 22:14 |
| dendrobates | I see a problem with that | 22:15 |
| salv-orlando | I agree it is too early to properly define a core, but we probably need a minimal one in order to identify the people who will approve the first branches landing in the trunks | 22:15 |
| dendrobates | Since there can be multiple blueprints for code base with multiple approvers... | 22:15 |
| dendrobates | we would have different stds for the code | 22:16 |
| danwent | sure. all I'm saying is that practically speaking for a project like quantum there will be 5-10 people coding to start. | 22:16 |
| dendrobates | if we have multiple core devs and an an agreed upon std, things will get less out of control | 22:16 |
| danwent | If other people aren't happy with your branch, you probably shouldn't push it. | 22:16 |
| dendrobates | I prefer that we seed, core-devs, but if other want to proceed differently, I'm ok with that. | 22:17 |
| salv-orlando | how will be the review process without core-devs? | 22:17 |
| dendrobates | We need to be sure we enforce coding stds though | 22:17 |
| danwent | agreed. | 22:18 |
| dendrobates | salv-orlando I am not sure | 22:18 |
| danwent | I'd say you send it out for review both others registered on the blueprint. | 22:19 |
| dendrobates | I would probably just say we all know our orgs, let's just make our sr devs core-devs and trust each other. That is what we had to do with nova | 22:19 |
| dendrobates | None of us really knew the other devs | 22:19 |
| danwent | I'm all for trust + open communication. | 22:19 |
| danwent | and avoiding situations were we try to push code we think/know someone else will not like | 22:20 |
| danwent | if we can get the base network service out by collaborating, this project won't succeed :) | 22:20 |
| danwent | (oops, didn't mean to say "network service", that's a bad word now) | 22:20 |
| dendrobates | We need to figure out code review and merging if we do not ave core devs, but I am willing to put some thought into it. | 22:21 |
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| dendrobates | Let me ask mordred to make sure it will not break tany of the infrastructure stuff | 22:22 |
| danwent | sounds good. | 22:22 |
| salv-orlando | sounds a good plan to me. | 22:22 |
| dendrobates | basically no core-devs == everyone is core dev | 22:22 |
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| danwent | yup, everyone will doing do fun things like reviews :) | 22:23 |
| salv-orlando | at least until we gain enough critical mass | 22:23 |
| romain_lenglet | it doesn't seem practical / desirable to have a large core dev team right now, so how about appointing a small number of core devs right now, but have them review code in the open, with help from everyone | 22:23 |
| danwent | and discussions and write code. | 22:23 |
| dendrobates | We should still require 2 approve reviews to merge code | 22:23 |
| danwent | dendrobates: that sounds good. | 22:23 |
| adjohn | non-core devs are always welcome to do reviews in nova | 22:23 |
| dendrobates | adjohn: even encouraged | 22:23 |
| danwent | definitely | 22:23 |
| danwent | We have a lot of blueprints to implement == lots of changes to prove you want to be a core-dev :) | 22:24 |
| dendrobates | So I prefer seeding a core dev group, but will happily bow to the will of the group | 22:24 |
| romain_lenglet | so start with a small team of core devs who just delegate code reviews to everyone else can do it? | 22:24 |
| snaiksat | why not start with the people who have done the most number of code-commits/reviews till date (in openstack) as the core-reviewers/approvers? | 22:25 |
| snaiksat | I meant in OpenStack and and who are part of this group | 22:25 |
| danwent | I think everyone is welcomed to review code... as we said. | 22:26 |
| snaiksat | I believe they would be in a better position to handle this at least to begin with | 22:26 |
| snaiksat | given their prior experience | 22:26 |
| danwent | Definitely happy to use their experience for reviews | 22:26 |
| dendrobates | We will have to decide at some point how to add core devs. I don't think it will get any easier. | 22:26 |
| danwent | I think the point is that we need to make sure everyone has a chance to approve/disapprove of the code. Eventually that won't scale, but for now I think its where we need to start. | 22:27 |
| dendrobates | But we can work on a policy over the next few months | 22:27 |
| dendrobates | danwent: why do you think that won't scale | 22:27 |
| danwent | sorry, let me rephrase. | 22:28 |
| AlexNeef | are the core-devs for the entire netstack project or per subproject? | 22:28 |
| danwent | everyone will always have the opportunity to do reviews. At some point, the review burden becomes larger and you need core devs who have a focused responsibility on reviewing. | 22:28 |
| dendrobates | AlexNeef: I would suggest for the entire subproject | 22:29 |
| danwent | AlexNeef: subproject, i agree | 22:29 |
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| AlexNeef | entire subproject meaning all of netstack? | 22:29 |
| adjohn | danwent: that's when you add more core devs, right? | 22:29 |
| salv-orlando | "entire subproject" is a bit ambiguous | 22:29 |
| AlexNeef | or seperate core-devs for quantum, dunabe, etc | 22:29 |
| danwent | subproject == quantum | 22:29 |
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| danwent | subproject == donabe | 22:30 |
| danwent | I think | 22:30 |
| dendrobates | I suggest that we have one core dev group to encourage cross pollination | 22:30 |
| debo_os | +1 | 22:31 |
| salv-orlando | +1 | 22:31 |
| danwent | adjohn: yup. I think the point is that once a project is bootstrapped, the responsibility for reviewing is not just on "everyone" but falls particularly on the "core-devs". | 22:31 |
| adjohn | +1 | 22:31 |
| dendrobates | another option is that we make all initial participants core-devs | 22:31 |
| dendrobates | that is basically what nova did | 22:32 |
| dendrobates | we then culled the list later as some people did not want the responsibility | 22:32 |
| AlexNeef | that sounds nice and democratic to me | 22:32 |
| salv-orlando | dendrobates: that would probably be the only viable one if it comes up that LP requires a core team for the review process | 22:32 |
| dendrobates | That worked for nova with no issues | 22:33 |
| danwent | I'm fine with that, as long as people don't try to "pack" core-devs :) | 22:33 |
| danwent | my assumption would be that if you're a core dev, you're actively working on a blueprint defined on the project? | 22:34 |
| dendrobates | also, after the seeding new devs weren;t automatically core devs, regardless of what company they wotrked for | 22:34 |
| danwent | or reviwing code? | 22:34 |
| salv-orlando | danwent: I think the "seeding" dendrobates referred to was to avoid "packing" | 22:34 |
| dendrobates | danwent: I agree | 22:34 |
| danwent | great. my only real concern here is that people are primarily concerned with getting code written, not "status" :) | 22:35 |
| dendrobates | danwent: and they should be actual developers, not managers, or architects that will not conrtibute | 22:35 |
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| danwent | yes, code | 22:35 |
| dendrobates | danwent: hopefully people will realize that it is a responsibility not a status | 22:35 |
| danwent | yes, reviews are a great way to encourage this view | 22:36 |
| dendrobates | nova has mandatory review days for core devs to remind them | 22:36 |
| danwent | Great. I'm fine for starting with everyone in as a core or no one in as a core, as long we keep this list closely in sync with reality | 22:37 |
| AlexNeef | I think that's a good idea, a forcing function | 22:37 |
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| dendrobates | so can one person from each org make a list of the devs that should be added? | 22:37 |
| dendrobates | I can take Cisco | 22:38 |
| danwent | sure | 22:38 |
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| dendrobates | we should also keep it small | 22:38 |
| danwent | agreed | 22:38 |
| dendrobates | i.e Cisco should not list 50 dev | 22:38 |
| debo_os | :) | 22:38 |
| dendrobates | I think we should have a limit | 22:38 |
| salv-orlando | I'd say: max(number_org,subprojects*2) | 22:38 |
| somikbehera | so these devs should be reviewing as well as coding? if they are doing that I assume the list should be small... | 22:39 |
| dendrobates | somikbehera: yes | 22:39 |
| danwent | Ok, are we good on this topic? | 22:40 |
| dendrobates | salv-orlando: can you take Citrix | 22:40 |
| salv-orlando | dendrobates: yes | 22:40 |
| dendrobates | and troy rackspace | 22:40 |
| dendrobates | and who for midokura | 22:40 |
| danwent | I'd love to get a chance to talk about some of the blueprints so people can get cracking on code. | 22:40 |
| AlexNeef | I will do Mellanox | 22:40 |
| hisaharu | I can take NTT | 22:41 |
| AlexNeef | should we send names to rick again? | 22:41 |
| romain_lenglet | dendrobates: at least me (romain_lenglet on LP) | 22:41 |
| dendrobates | How about me and Dan | 22:41 |
| dendrobates | That way if I fall into the Danube tomorrow dan can still make thechanges | 22:42 |
| romain_lenglet | dendrobates: (actually my LP login is "romain-lenglet", sorry) | 22:42 |
| danwent | I'm still a launchpad newbie, so please be careful rick :) | 22:42 |
| dendrobates | danwent: you;ll get the hang of it :) | 22:43 |
| dendrobates | I think we can start asking ttx for admin help as well | 22:43 |
| dendrobates | crap we talked about that for a long time. | 22:44 |
| danwent | Ok, can we talk about blueprints really quick? I want to give people a status update on the quantum stuff. | 22:44 |
| dendrobates | #topic blueprints | 22:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "blueprints" | 22:44 | |
| danwent | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/network-service | 22:44 |
| danwent | We've defined a set of quantum blueprints, mainly based on discussions at the summit. | 22:44 |
| danwent | troy from rackspace extracted a lot of "starter code" from glance for melange. | 22:45 |
| danwent | we're looking to leverage that for quantum as well. this is base code for wsgi, unit tests, etc. | 22:45 |
| salv-orlando | Woops, I was doing the same thing :-) | 22:45 |
| danwent | salv-orlando: let's sync up on this. | 22:46 |
| danwent | vish had some specific instructions about what to take/not take. | 22:46 |
| dendrobates | I would like to revisit that with vish | 22:46 |
| dendrobates | and make a case to take more | 22:47 |
| dendrobates | danwent: oops, I'm talking about mellange | 22:47 |
| danwent | for reference: https://code.launchpad.net/~rajarammallya/network-service/melange_framework | 22:47 |
| danwent | this is the branch of what troy borrowed from glance. | 22:47 |
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| salv-orlando | where Vishy's instructions sent on the ML? | 22:47 |
| danwent | somik is taking a crack as changing names, etc. | 22:48 |
| danwent | most of them were at the summit on friday. | 22:48 |
| danwent | rick, this was also discussed at the PTL meeting, right? | 22:48 |
| vishy | termie and jaypipes are working on skeleton frameworks | 22:49 |
| dendrobates | Not sure, I did not attend. I'll ask ttx | 22:49 |
| danwent | not sure if anything useful came out of that though. | 22:49 |
| vishy | but I don't think they will be ready soon enough | 22:49 |
| * vishy is lurking :) | 22:49 | |
| danwent | :) | 22:49 |
| danwent | much appreciated | 22:49 |
| vishy | i would suggest getting started and if the skeletons make it soon, you can convert code over | 22:49 |
| danwent | sounds good. | 22:50 |
| danwent | salv-orlando: can you take a look at the stuff in the branch i sent out and see if it is compatible with what you were thinking? | 22:50 |
| danwent | (its for melange, but we were planning on using much the same logic for quantum) | 22:51 |
| danwent | I'd suggest we first focus on getting the API spec solid and make sure everyone is on board. | 22:51 |
| salv-orlando | danwent: at a first glance all the common stuff (db, test, wsgi) is in that branch | 22:51 |
| danwent | http://wiki.openstack.org/QuantumAPIBase#preview | 22:51 |
| debo_os | for the API to be solidified it would be good to align with the use cases ... | 22:52 |
| danwent | that's the current blueprint spec. Basically copied from summit slides. Salvatore's proposal is attached. I think its a good place to start the feedback process. | 22:52 |
| danwent | salv-orlando: do you have use cases in the doc? | 22:52 |
| danwent | I remember some sample use cases at the end? | 22:53 |
| salv-orlando | yes, they are still there | 22:53 |
| danwent | hopefully we can expand on that as questions arise. | 22:53 |
| danwent | I created a etherpad to track some feedback on had on the doc: http://etherpad.openstack.org/PbTpgXnnZZ | 22:54 |
| danwent | not sure if there is a better way to do this (launchpad whiteboard did not seem to have a good notion of identify) | 22:54 |
| danwent | identify -> identity | 22:54 |
| AlexNeef | I asked salv for a word copy of the doc and was going to embed my ideas and comments | 22:55 |
| dendrobates | danwent: no etherpad is better | 22:55 |
| danwent | ok, let's go with etherpad. Nice and public :) | 22:55 |
| AlexNeef | is there a better way to do the review, i agree the white board is tricky | 22:55 |
| danwent | AlexNeef: is etherpad ok? | 22:55 |
| danwent | not as easy as MS word comments, i agree, but its hard for MS word comments to be public. | 22:56 |
| AlexNeef | it's hard to refer to certain parts fo the document | 22:56 |
| salv-orlando | I can convert the doc in a wiki page with anchors | 22:56 |
| danwent | yeah, anyone have a good solution? does google docs do comments? could make it a public document? | 22:56 |
| danwent | or that works. | 22:56 |
| salv-orlando | so in the ehterpad you can put a link to the point of the doc you are referring to | 22:56 |
| AlexNeef | The wiki route sounds good to me | 22:57 |
| debo_os | http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=65129 It does | 22:57 |
| dendrobates | salv-orlando: I think that will work well | 22:57 |
| AlexNeef | then we are already generating documentation | 22:57 |
| danwent | salv-orlando: if you're willing to do the work, it seems like a good solution. | 22:57 |
| danwent | I think our API spec should eventually grow into a developer doc like http://docs.rackspacecloud.com/servers/api/v1.0/cs-devguide-20110415.pdf | 22:57 |
| danwent | If you can only have to create it once, that might be a win. | 22:58 |
| dendrobates | we should volunteer Eric to own that, he's good at it. | 22:58 |
| danwent | Erik Carlin? | 22:58 |
| danwent | or another eric/k? | 22:58 |
| dendrobates | yes | 22:58 |
| dendrobates | sorry, Erik C | 22:59 |
| danwent | sounds reasonable. | 22:59 |
| danwent | I'm also looking for people to stand up and take on additional blueprints. | 22:59 |
| danwent | keystone integration, api extension model, etc. | 22:59 |
| danwent | api clients (CLI + GUI), etc. | 23:00 |
| dendrobates | danwent: cisco will probably take on some of that | 23:00 |
| dendrobates | just let us know where the gaps are | 23:00 |
| danwent | dendrobates: great, much appreciated. | 23:00 |
| danwent | So please let you interest in working on areas be known, and I'll try to track what gaps still need to be filled. | 23:00 |
| *** Guest69343 is now known as michsmit | 23:01 | |
| danwent | looks like we're about out of time.... I have a 4 o'clock meeting. | 23:01 |
| danwent | other topics to discuss? | 23:01 |
| dendrobates | by the way, you can join the netstack team yourselves | 23:01 |
| dendrobates | https://launchpad.net/netstack | 23:01 |
| dendrobates | so everyone go and join | 23:02 |
| dendrobates | it is open | 23:02 |
| dendrobates | It's 1AM here, so nothing from me | 23:02 |
| somikbehera | cool! team members gotta code and review code.. right? ;) | 23:02 |
| AlexNeef | i don't see that option | 23:02 |
| dendrobates | somikbehera: no this is the general team, anyone can join | 23:03 |
| danwent | Thanks folks! | 23:03 |
| dendrobates | https://launchpad.net/~netstack | 23:03 |
| somikbehera | ah.. ic | 23:03 |
| dendrobates | wrong URL | 23:03 |
| dendrobates | sorry | 23:03 |
| dendrobates | #endmeeting | 23:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/" | 23:03 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 11 23:03:34 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 23:03 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-05-11-22.00.html | 23:03 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-05-11-22.00.txt | 23:03 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-05-11-22.00.log.html | 23:03 |
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| salv-orlando | goodnight ! | 23:03 |
| somikbehera | bye everyone! | 23:04 |
| dendrobates | bye | 23:04 |
| hisaharu | bye | 23:04 |
| midodan | cheers | 23:04 |
| debo_os | cheers! | 23:04 |
| snaiksat | bye | 23:04 |
| adjohn | Seeya! | 23:04 |
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