Wednesday, 2011-11-30

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jaypipesQA IRC meeting starting in 5 minutes on #openstack-meeting16:24
jaypipesdwalleck: heyo16:25
dwalleckjaypipes: Howdy!16:25
dwalleckIn 5? It's not at in 35?16:25
jaypipesdwalleck: so, I think Donald and I will just go over stuff today and then you, me, and Rick can go over stuff tomorrow....16:25
jaypipesdwalleck: no, it's in 5 mins AFAIK...16:26
jaypipesdwalleck: we moved it back from 11am to noon EST16:26
dwalleckSure, that works16:26
dwalleckRight, which is 35 minutes from now. Unless my clock is lying16:27
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dwalleckOr I need more sleep16:27
jaypipesdwalleck: oh, dang I must be losing it...16:27
jaypipesQA IRC meeting starting in 33 minutes on #openstack-meeting16:28
dwalleckWhew, good :) Glad to know I haven't totally lost it16:28
jaypipesdwalleck: no, I must be losing it...16:28
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AntoniHPare we going to go back to 4pm or would it stay forever at 5pm?16:32
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jaypipesAntoniHP: good question :) would be up to the QA team. At least for the next 5 months it will remain at 5pm UTC...16:34
jaypipesAntoniHP: when we get to the next daylight savings madness in the US, I'll ask for a vote to keep it at 5pm UTC...16:34
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AntoniHPI guess it would be best to stick  to timezones where most of team members work, if it's mostly Americans then I guess let's have it fixed in your time16:38
jaypipesAntoniHP: doesn't really matter, really. I think the west coasters would appreciate another hour to sleep in, regardless ;)16:40
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jaypipesQA IRC meeting starting in 2 minutes on #openstack-meeting16:58
jaypipesdwalleck: just had a chance to look through integration.rst you sent me...17:00
jaypipesdwalleck: looks excellent.17:00
jaypipesdwalleck: we can go over your gerrit problems after this meeting.17:00
jaypipesOK, let's get started17:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 30 17:00:52 2011 UTC.  The chair is jaypipes. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.17:00
dwalleckjaypipes: Sounds good. Actually when I went to gerrit this morning, it shows my commit. strange17:01
jaypipeswestmaas, dwalleck: How's progress on identifying the missing functional tests?17:01
dwalleckMissing as in the ones not committed yet?17:01
jaypipesdwalleck: and missing as in "we should be testing this set of functional commands but we aren't" ;)17:02
dwalleckI have one branch submitted for image meta tests.17:02
jaypipesdwalleck: k, will review that one shortly.17:03
dwalleckI have at least 3 other suites I need to bring over, but I wanted to make some of my team's work more generic so it works for everyone17:03
jaypipesdwalleck: timeframe on that?17:03
dwalleckRight now they're making some assumptions on what IP addresses an environment has17:03
dwalleckEnd of day friday would be safe. It's just some minor refactoring, and porting over the work from this week17:04
Ravikumar_hpjaypipes: where we will put the list of missing tests17:04
jaypipesRavikumar_hp: that's what I'm trying to determine ;)17:04
dwalleckI've started it as bugs for openstack integration17:04
jaypipesdwalleck: k.. lemme grab link.17:04
dwalleckI have the list on my team's Redmine. I started porting it over to bugs, but the holidays interrupted me17:04
dwalleckThat I'll commit to finishing by end of day today17:05
jaypipesdwalleck: sounds good. I'll help with the assignment and prioritization on LP.17:06
dwalleckAnd this list will only contain bugs for functionality we feel hasn't been tested yet for the sake of brevity17:06
jaypipesdwalleck: just FYI, the reason it's important is to prevent duplication of effort with Ravikumar_hp's team...17:06
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nati2Hi Sorry late17:06
dwalleckjaypipes: Totally understood17:06
jaypipesI will also create milestones for the openstack-integration-tests project...17:07
jaypipes#action dwalleck to complete redmine -> LP bug migration17:07
jaypipes#action jaypipes to create milestones in openstack-integration-tests project on LP.17:07
jaypipesOK, continuing on integration tests topic, I'd like to discuss the documentation we're working on...17:08
dwalleckOur team also brought up a point I wanted to bring up here. Their concern was that some of our tests might be considered almost white box, so I wanted to bring that topic here as well17:08
dwalleckMaybe at the end17:08
jaypipesdwalleck: sure, let's definitely discuss that right after docs.17:08
jaypipesSo, I put up some placeholder stuff and dwalleck has graciously filled out some instructions... I'm going to be uploading them shortly after this meeting.17:09
jaypipesThey will be going here:17:09
jaypipesDaryl has written details about the directory structure of tempest and how to write a new test case.17:10
jaypipesThese instructions should be helpful to anyone interested in writing new test cases (Ravi, anotherjesse, etc)17:10
jaypipesAnd FYI, for anyone who would like to contribute to the documentation efforts in QA, please do this:17:11
nati2Is there branch for openstack-qa-doc?17:11
jaypipesGo to your Gerrit Settings area and make sure you have added openstack-dev/openstack-qa to your Watched Projects list17:11
nati2jaypipes: Thanks17:12
jaypipesIt is managed in Gerrit like the other core projects are.17:12
jaypipesSo please do contribute17:12
jaypipesOK, dwalleck, let's discuss white box17:12
dwalleckSo as part of our tests for Nova, we've found that we've had to SSH into the server instances we've created to fully verify some actions17:13
nati2dwalleck: I agree.17:13
dwalleckThat immediately raised the white box flag for some people, but others feel that since the instance itself is a public facing entity, it is still black box17:14
rohitkdwalleck: and the security groups and rules need to be created manually, right?17:14
dwalleckIt's a tricky spot. We've already ran into a few bugs where Nova has lied to us via the API about what its done :)17:14
dwalleckrohtik: Those are things my team hasn't hit yet17:15
jaypipesdwalleck: I would say that for the initial set of black box tests, we should steer clear of SSH'ing into the instances to verify state. At least for the top-priority tests, we are concerned with "does the API call take input and return output the way it is spec'd"17:15
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dwalleckSo for what goes into Tempest, how do you all feel?17:15
dwalleckThat's fair17:16
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AntoniHPmaybe looking at console output would a way to verify without depnding on network17:16
nati2AntoniHP: It also needed17:16
dwalleckAtonioHP: Which console output?17:16
rohitk#agree with jay for basic verification17:16
jaypipesdwalleck: I think AntoniHP is referring to VNC console output17:17
AntoniHPVM console, euca-get-console-output17:17
nati2And also, I wanna check server logs for negative case.17:17
dwalleckAhh, I see17:17
AntoniHPlike to check if metadata has been correctly fetched, or all devices are detected in VM17:17
nati2tempest also coulde be used for deployment setting check. So it is useful if we can check VM without NW17:18
dwalleckYes, there's a lot of different ways to go deeper. I just wanted to make sure what I'm committing now is generic enough for all to use17:18
jaypipesAntoniHP: I don't have a problem with checking console output per-se, but I believe that should be a separate test case type. I think the test cases in tempest right now should stay at the "validate the API" level, and we should complete the set of those tests before diving deeper. But that's just my opinion...17:18
nati2jaypipes: I agree17:19
dwalleckjaypipes: ++. We have seperate stories for console testing (which, if anyone has any thoughts on automating, I'd love to hear it :)17:19
jaypipesAntoniHP: plus, IME, if an operation goes wrong that is only visible in white-box testing (and not in the output from an API call), I think that's a bug, too! :)17:19
dwalleckAlso, the SSH approach does not work for Windows instances of course17:19
dwalleckWhich is a whole other issue for another day17:19
jaypipesdwalleck: ya :)17:20
rohitkSSH would be required for many use cases, checking attached volumes, injected files etc, but those should probably fall under a different set of tests17:20
jaypipesSo, to be clear, I don't think anyone is against white-box testing approaches (like SSH or console output checks), but we're saying we should first get the API-only tests completed.17:20
dwalleckSo for now, I'll leave the SSH calls out of this17:20
dwalleckAnd we can revisit later17:21
AntoniHPjaypipes: it is asynchronous process, API calls just succeed if they are acceptable by server17:21
nati2We should have API-only tests milestone17:21
jaypipesnati2: ++17:21
jaypipesnati2: dwalleck and I are going to get those done today.17:22
jaypipesnati2: the milestones...17:22
nati2jaypipes: Thanks17:22
AntoniHPjaypipes: it is not different then polling database later to see if changes have been reflected17:22
jaypipesAntoniHP: sure, but a follow up call (for instance "show me the result of this prior reservation call" should return an error if an error happened. If the only way to determine an error happened is to log into a box, that's a bug :)17:22
jaypipesAntoniHP: I think we understand each other :)17:23
jaypipesAntoniHP: I'm just suggesting those *type* of tests be in a separate area than "tempest"17:23
jaypipess/area/directory or module/17:23
nati2I think white-box test should be in separate directory  or module on tempest in future17:24
AntoniHPjaypipes: IMHO shoing console output falls into "how me the result of this prior (..) call"17:24
jaypipesFYI, now contains dwalleck's updates17:24
jaypipesAntoniHP: ok. what do others think? does console output fall into a separate category than SSHing to verify results?17:25
rohitkIMO, yes since that is a different API call17:26
jaypipesin other words, should we add methods in tempest base test classes to connect to a VNC console and verify output?17:26
dwalleckTo generalize, we could have a set of white-ish box tests which, for lack of a better term, test the side effects of API calls17:26
nati2dwalleck: #agreed17:26
nati2What's discussion point?17:27
jaypipesdwalleck: no, I think AntoniHP is suggesting that in addition to validating the return of an API call, for some methods (like run_instance, etc), we do an assert in the test cases in tempest that connect to VNC and verify output.17:27
jaypipesAntoniHP: did I summarize that correctly?17:27
AntoniHPI meant accessing text-file where nova stores output from console using API call, rather than going to VNC17:27
AntoniHPI understand that when I call this from boto library, all that I talk to i API server17:28
nati2AntoniHP: Yes, VNC not needed to check console output17:28
jaypipesAntoniHP: ok. that would indeed be easier (still checking the same output, though, of course...)17:28
Ravikumar_hpyes. vnc NOT needed17:28
jaypipesdwalleck: thoughts? add in methods in server actions test cases that validate console output?17:28
AntoniHPbut there is no dependency on networking, unlike SSH and/or VNC17:28
jaypipesdwalleck: AntoniHP is correct that this is a public API output that would be checked (not internal state)17:29
nati2jaypipes: If someone write the test code, it should be acceped17:29
jaypipesnati2: yes... we're just having a bit of a theoretical/philosophical debate here ;)17:29
nati2jaypipes: gotcha17:30
dwalleckjaypipes: I think I'm still on the wagon. By validating the console output, I'm just a bit unclear of where that occurs17:30
jaypipesnati2: not about *whether* to accept the test code, but *where* to put it :)17:30
dwalleckIs it logged within the server instance itself?17:30
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jaypipesdwalleck: there is an output file, yes17:30
jaypipesdwalleck: so UIAM, we'd SSH into the server instance and read that output text file.17:31
nati2jaypipes: I got it.17:31
jaypipesAntoniHP: right?17:31
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dwalleckjaypipes: Ahh, then that's clear now. That sounds reasonable17:31
nati2jaypipes: Console output is one of API result, so it should be go to the black-box,IMO17:31
AntoniHPI think not, this is accessed by nova-compute code and provided to API server17:31
jaypipesnati2, AntoniHP: ah.... was not aware of that!17:31
jaypipesis this for both EC2 *and* OpenStack API?17:31
nati2jaypipes: I'm not sure, EC2 has that output17:32
* jaypipes checks real quick... one sec17:32
AntoniHPit basically call : please send me contents of specifica file from compute node17:32
rohitkthere is an OSAPI equivalent too17:32
nati2IMO, some discussion point is mixing now17:32
rohitkdo a GET on console17:32
jaypipesrohitk: is it an undocumented extension? I can't see anything about it at
nati21 Console output checking is while or black ? 2 Where we put while-box test 3 milestone17:33
bcwaldonsorry I showed up late, but what's the question here?17:33
jaypipesnati2: we have decided console output checking is "black"17:33
nati2jaypipes: gotcha17:34
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dwalleckbcwaldon: Talking about whether accessing an instance crosses the line between white and black box testing17:34
jaypipesbcwaldon: to summarize, we were discussing where the white-box vs. black-box boundary was regarding methods of validating input and output of public interfaces17:34
rohitkjaypipes: I did not see documentation for it but recall from an ML /<server_id>/consoles/<console_id>17:34
bcwaldonok, and the question about consoles?17:34
bcwaldonto be clear, consoles is an undocumented extension (as jaypipes said)17:34
jaypipesbcwaldon: is verifying console output black box testing? we decided "yes" after some discussion.17:35
AntoniHPto my knowledge there is no call in basic openstack api for getting console output17:35
bcwaldonand the interface *will* be changing17:35
nati2I suppose console for Openstack API was an extension and undocumented17:35
bcwaldonnati2: exactly17:35
jaypipesalright, so that answers that question for now...17:36
bcwaldonit probably shouldnt be tested in its current state17:36
jaypipesbut it brings up another big issue: EC2 vs OpenStack API.17:36
nati2bcwaldon: Ah sorry it was not in contrib directory,, but it is still undocumented17:36
nati2My API list covers that17:36
jaypipesok, everyone hold up for a second... let me summarize the discussion on this so far and get a vote from everyone. PLEASE WAIT.17:37
jaypipesPlease #agree if the following statement is correct:17:37
jaypipesWe agree that verifying console output is black-box testing and that we should aim to add methods to functional test cases (where applicable) that verify console output via API calls.17:38
jaypipesPlease #agree if the following statement is also correct:17:38
jaypipesCurrenttly EC2 supports console output API calls, but OpenStack API needs an extension. We shall document this in the integration test suite and have the afore-mentioned console output methods check to see if the OpenStack API extension is enabled before trying to gather console output in the OpenStack API tests17:39
Ravikumar_hp#agree -17:40
nati2Ah OpenStack API don't need extension for console17:40
nati2I checked the code, console was not in extension directory17:40
Ravikumar_hp#info - we are writting OS API extension to support ec2 console ouput17:40
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nati2I'm not sure it is extension or not. But there is not docs in OS API17:40
bcwaldonnati2: this is a best-case scenario, we will have to wait until consoles is documented as an extension17:41
Ravikumar_hpit is NOT yet in OS API extension17:41
jaypipesnati2: ok, thank you for checking that. may I assign you a task for finding out the facts about this extension?17:41
annegentleI just logged a bug 898266 about the missing docs for console17:41
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 898266 in nova "API command not documented - {tenantId}/servers/{serverId}/consoles" [Undecided,New]
jaypipeswow, that was fast! :)17:41
jaypipesnati2: may annegentle assign that to you?17:41
bcwaldonkeep in mind it needs to first be converted to an extension, then it can be documented17:42
annegentleif it's not in the contrib dir that's odd17:42
nati2jaypipes: gotcha, I'll talk with anne17:42
annegentlenati2: sounds good17:42
jaypipesnati2: k, thx17:42
bcwaldonand it seems like Ravikumar_hp is handling the first part17:42
nati2One question,  who can decide it is extension or not?17:42
bcwaldonnova-core and the nova-api team17:42
jaypipes#action nati-san to determine current (and planned) status of the console output API extension/feature in OS API and work with annegentle to document it17:43
rohitkquestion: get-console is there in OSAPI17:43
Ravikumar_hpit has to be extension.17:43
nati2OK I'll ask it on mailing list17:43
rohitkare we talking about moving it to an extension?17:43
bcwaldonrohitk: yes17:43
bcwaldonrohitk: it cannot exist in its current state17:43
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rohitkbcwaldon: ok17:44
jaypipesOK, can I ask (for expedience's sake) that we take that particular discussion offline and report status back on ML?17:44
bcwaldonabsolutely :)17:44
jaypipesalrighty, we have another big issue to discuss...17:44
jaypipes#topic EC2 API tests not currently written in tempest17:45
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jaypipeswhile dwalleck's team's focus is on the OS API, other teams need to focus on the EC2 API.17:45
jaypipesand I'd like tempest to be able to run both sets of API tests of course17:45
bcwaldonjaypipes: have you brought this to the attention of the ec2 api team?17:46
jaypipesbcwaldon: one sec ;)17:46
jaypipesobviously, the next logical step would be to find individuals on the QA team that are interested in writing the EC2 test cases in Tempest to match the OS API ones...17:46
jaypipesany takers?17:47
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jaypipeswow, hold on everybody! one at a time! ;)17:47
dwalleckjaypipes: I need to look at the EC2 API, but how different is functionality? Are the workflows the same?17:47
bcwaldonjaypipes: sounds like you should ask the ec2 api team17:47
dwalleckIf so, I might have an idea here17:47
jaypipesdwalleck: no, quite different. especially around auth and other things17:47
jaypipesthe alternative is to find an existing lib that stresses the EC2 API calls? boto have one perhaps?17:48
dwalleckI have zero to test against, but I wouldn't mind giving it a try17:48
dwalleckAt least for some basic smoke tests17:48
jaypipesdwalleck: well, to be fair, your charter is the OS API. It's what RAX will be running... so I'd prefer to have folks who have a stake in a production EC2 deploy on OpenStack...17:49
jaypipesdwalleck: and let's not forget, nova-smoketests already does test the EC2 API (though it is white-box, not black-box, IIRC)17:49
bcwaldonjaypipes: correct17:50
dwalleckjaypipes: That's fair. I just didn't want to exclude the EC2 folks from Tempest17:50
jaypipesOK, then we'll just have to backburner the EC2 API black box testing for now. I will talk with the nova EC2 team to check for interest in helping on test writing.17:50
nati2Is there a stake in a production EC2 deploy on OpenStack? EC2 team?17:50
jaypipes#action jaypipes to write nova EC2 team to get help on writing black box EC2 API test cases17:50
jaypipesnati2: that's what I'm trying to figure out :) I suspect Canonical will be a resource there...17:51
nati2jaypipes: Sounds cool17:51
bcwaldonjaypipes, nati2: there were a lot of strong voices at the summit in favor of ec217:51
jaypipesOK, so let's open the floor up for discussion. Anybody have things to bring up?17:52
jaypipes#topic open discussion17:52
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nati2I wanna make sure17:52
nati2White box test will be accepted on tempest?17:52
dwalleckSo I've been tinkering with implementing logging17:52
jaypipesnati2: no17:52
AntoniHPI have a question, is there openstack qa mailing list?17:52
jaypipesAntoniHP: no, main mailing list, just post with [QA] in subject17:53
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bcwaldonthere's a launchpad team, so there has to be a ML17:53
jaypipesAntoniHP: there may be eventually, but not right now...17:53
rohitkquestion: when are we going to mv to "tempest" in the github repo of openstack-integration-tests17:53
jaypipesbcwaldon: trying to keep things unified for the time being17:53
dwalleckWhat I've been logging so far is just requests and responses at info, and response failures as errors.17:53
nati2jaypipes: So some guy who needs white box test should create new project?17:53
bcwaldonjaypipes: ok17:53
jaypipesrohitk: good question... jeblair?17:53
jaypipesnati2: or put in a separate directory (like kong is)17:54
dwalleckAnd with my next commit, I'll do the storm -> tempest transition17:54
jaypipesnati2: eventually, we'll combine white-box stuff, too, but the priority right now is black box...17:54
rohitkdwalleck: thanks17:54
jaypipesjeblair: need to map out a time to migrate openstack-integration-tests to tempest...17:54
nati2jaypipes: Ah I got it.  templest/white-some-thing.  I agree with you about priority17:54
Ravikumar_hpnati2: white box tests can go unit tests . Right?17:54
jaypipesnati2: yes, exactly.17:54
rohitki also feel the top-level repository name should change too, any ideas17:54
nati2Ravikumar_hp: No it is not unit test17:55
dwalleckRavikumar_hp: They're not really unit tests since they go through the API17:55
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jeblairyep.  i'm going to get back to work on that now17:55
jaypipesrohitk: it was going to be tempest, right?17:55
donaldngo_hpwhy do we consider sshing into a vm with public ip a white box test?17:55
jeblairyes, tempest17:55
dwalleckIt's a pseduo white/black/? type test17:55
rohitkyes, openstack-integration-tests --> tempest17:55
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jeblairwho is the best person to schedule timing with?17:55
jaypipesdonaldngo_hp: it's what you *do* with that SSH connection that determines if it's a white-box or black box test ;)17:56
jaypipesjeblair: dwalleck and me17:56
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jeblairjaypipes: cool, let's chat after meeting17:56
jaypipesdonaldngo_hp: I think anything that checks some program state that you would need knowledge of the internal workings of an application would be considered "white box"17:57
dwalleckjaypipes: I sort of agree. To me, the real absolute white box line is if I directly access a compute node or the Xen API17:57
dwalleckThen I'm really exploring behind the wall17:57
jaypipesdonaldngo_hp: but I agree, the lines can be blurred at times17:57
donaldngo_hpimo sshing is no different then calling an api endpoint to spin up the vm17:58
donaldngo_hpalso SSHing seems to be a better check since the end user will need to so this as opposed to an api call17:59
donaldngo_hpto check logs17:59
jaypipesdonaldngo_hp: SSHing into the instance, sure... SSHing into the host/dom0, not so much :) that's all I'm sayin.17:59
dwalleckdonaldngo_hp: The only problem our team has run into with the SSH methodology is that it only works for Linux. That's still going to be a vast majority of instances, but if you try to run the tests that way with a Windows instance, no luck18:00
jaypipesdonaldngo_hp: just clarifying that anything that checks the state of something that requires internal knowledge of the platform implementation (such as querying libvirt or XenAPI directly) would be white-box to me...18:00
dwalleckThough I'm still trying to think of a clever way to inject a SSH server into a windows instance on creation :)18:00
nati2jaypipes: StackMonkey will do it, (kill process or something). So it should be separate directlry18:00
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jaypipesnati2: yes, separate from the black-box tests currently in /tempest18:01
jaypipesor /storm...18:01
jaypipessoon to be /tempest18:01
nati2jaypipes: gotcha18:01
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jaypipesOK, going to wrap up meeting...18:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: | Minutes:"18:01
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 30 18:01:53 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:01
openstackMinutes (text):
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donaldngo_hpthanks guys18:02
nati2Thanks Jay!18:02
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jaypipesdonaldngo_hp: we on for 4pm today?18:02
dwalleckGood chat :)18:02
nati2FYI I learn how to use ramstack in devstack.18:02
nati2I could be very useful to create CI env18:02
nati2and deployment18:02
jaypipesdonaldngo_hp: turns out dwalleck and rick can't make it at 4pm, but you and I can have a chat and I'll follow up with dwalleck and rick tomorrow...18:02
dwalleckSorry, in planning all afternoon :(18:02
jaypipesdwalleck: hey, no worries man18:03
donaldngo_hpjaypipes: sounds good18:03
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dwalleckBut I'll definitely be available tomorrow. You both have my skype, just let me know when you guys want to gather up18:03
jaypipesdwalleck: will do, depending on chat with donaldngo_hp this afternoon.18:04
dwallecksounds good!18:04
jaypipesjeblair: chat about move of repo?18:05
jeblairso it's a hair process, and i may be making some of it up as i go along18:05
jaypipesjeblair: there's a single changeset left around from Ravi, but I think that can be safely discarded..18:05
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jeblairso let's say it may involve several hours where we say the repo isn't available18:06
jeblairsorry, it's a "hairy" process.18:06
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jeblairwhat about that one?18:07
jeblairjaypipes: ^?18:08
jaypipesjeblair: lemme get that in right quick...18:10
jeblairso next item: when would be a good time to do this, estimating 2 hours of repo unavailability?18:11
jaypipesjeblair: OK, it's off to the test pit18:11
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jaypipesjeblair: as soon as that changeset gets merged is fine.18:12
jaypipesjeblair: and it is now done, so whenever you're ready, go for it. thx!18:12
jeblairit's okay to do it without advance notice?18:12
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jeblairjaypipes: ^18:13
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jaypipesjeblair: yep.18:15
jaypipesjeblair: me and dwalleck have pretty much been the only committers so far.18:15
jaypipesjeblair: and once done, I'll send a note to the ML about the changed repo location.18:15
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jeblairokay, sounds good18:16
jeblairi'm starting now.  i'll let you know when i'm done.18:17
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