Wednesday, 2012-07-11

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openstackMeeting started Wed Jul 11 16:00:21 2012 UTC.  The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
jgriffithOk, who's here?16:00
jgriffithHuuuhhh.. noone!16:01
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rnirmalI'm here, but will be silent for a few mins16:02
jgriffithOk, I'll get started then16:02
jgriffith#topic core status update16:02
*** openstack changes topic to "core status update"16:02
jgriffithMost of you may have heard/seen we're now a core project in Openstack as of yesterdays PPB meeting16:02
MandellYay :)16:03
jgriffithYes, very cool!16:03
jgriffithThere are some significant details that need to be sorted out regarding the existing Nova Volume code16:03
MandellI saw vishy's note.16:04
jgriffithCheck your emails and respond, preferrably +1 option 116:04
winston-dalready done that16:04
jgriffithKeep in mind we all have features in mind and we're spread thin already, maintaining two projects is not going to help16:04
jgriffithwinston-d: Yes, I saw your vote :)16:05
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jgriffithSo now that we're core that brings up the official business we're going to need to conduct16:05
jgriffithWe'll need to wipe out the existing core team and strat over officially16:05
jgriffithWe'll also need to have a PTL election16:06
jgriffithI'm a bit concerned about the core team part....16:06
jgriffithI don't want to end up with NO core team members in Cinder :)16:07
winston-dI don't think that would happen. :)16:07
jgriffithAnd I don't want these extra things to hinder progress16:07
MandellThat would be less than optimal.16:07
jgriffithSo I'm wondering what people think in terms of timing?  Should we start the process this week?16:08
jgriffith(For both core team setup and PTL election)16:08
winston-dthat works for me.16:08
jgriffithany objections/concerns from anybody?16:09
winston-dand i agree we should start early to settle things down16:09
DuncanTNo objections16:09
jgriffithwinston-d: Yes, I think that's an excellent point16:09
jgriffithOk, I'll start moving forward with that whole process16:09
rnirmal+1 for that, lets get it kicked off16:10
jgriffithOne thing I'll have to clear up is if we then have to have another PTL election at F3 anyway, in which case maybe that part we just wait and do it once16:10
rnirmalbut remember doing so is likely at the minimum a one week downtime in getting in new code16:10
jgriffithI'll have to figure out the details on the "rules"16:10
jgriffithrnirmal: I'm hoping we can avoid that16:11
jgriffithrnirmal: We can't afford that TBH16:11
rnirmalyeah that's what I'm getting at16:11
jgriffithI think we leave existing setup in place until official results are in16:11
jgriffithThen we switch it up and move on16:11
rnirmalok sounds better :)16:12
jgriffithWe'll still have to bend the rules a bit regarding code submissions to Cinder, but I'd propose code submissions/reviews to Nova be accepted the same16:12
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jgriffithAny questions, advice, concerns ?16:13
jgriffithBTW some other good things that are happening are we're working on Tempest integration16:13
bswartzis cinder going to stick with the same milestones/deadlines as nova?16:14
jgriffithbswartz: Yes!  Those milestones/deadlines are Openstack not Nova specific16:14
jgriffithbswartz: We've already been adhering to those, that's what we had to demonstrate to become Core16:14
jgriffithSo just to be clear, all fo the same processes, rules, schedules, milestones etc16:15
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jgriffithOk, any questions about being a core project?16:15
galthaus_Does that mean it will be in the folsum release?16:16
winston-di think so16:16
jgriffithgalthaus_: Yes16:16
galthaus_Or tied to it, I should say.16:16
galthaus_Faster than expect, but good.16:16
jgriffithgalthaus_: I mentioned earlier in the meeting check your emails for the thread on what to do with Nova-V16:16
jgriffithgalthaus_: Vote for option 1 please, unless you have a real concern that hasn't been addressed16:17
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jgriffithgalthaus_: I'll let you catch up on my pitch there via the logs :)16:18
jgriffith#topic Status16:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Status"16:18
jgriffithSo now for status of the code and 'real' work....16:18
jgriffithThere's been a bit going on and some new folks getting involved ( winston-d thingee )16:19
jgriffithwelcome!  :)16:19
thingeehello all!16:19
jgriffithI've taken a first pass at cleaning up the DB16:20
DuncanTHow did the Tuesday hackday thing go? We didn't hear anything about it and I was out sick so didn't chase...16:20
jgriffithDuncanT: It went pretty well16:20
jgriffithDuncanT: Had a chance to share some really good ideas about direction of the project and design16:20
rnirmaljgriffith: didn't see any new code from the hackday though16:21
jgriffithrnirmal: Yeah, so there are things that were started but not "finished"16:21
jgriffithrnirmal: My db code was done at that hack day16:21
rnirmalok cool16:21
jgriffithjmckent started working on the openstack.common/logging port16:22
jgriffitha number of folks did some devstack testing/work16:22
jgriffithRenuka did some Xen verification16:22
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jgriffith_0x44 is working on bug: 100886616:22
jgriffithAll in all there was some good effort taking place, just not a lot has landed (yet) :)16:23
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* rnirmal looking forward to all that16:23
jgriffithI'd like to try and set something up again in the future16:24
jgriffithIf nothing else, it's good to get everybody in a room face to face and discuss ideas inbetween summits16:24
rnirmaljgriffith: tomorrow is bug squash day, if people plan to meet16:25
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jgriffithrnirmal: yes, I am hoping that folks here will be available and join in!16:25
jgriffithUnfortunately the're something broken in devstack right now and it could make squash day a bit difficult :(16:26
jgriffithThe devstack tests fail16:26
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jgriffithExcept on the RS jenkins cloud16:26
jgriffithDon't know why that is though....16:26
jgriffithActually if any of you here have a chance to spin up devstack on your systems and run today it would be very helpful in trying to isolate what's going on16:27
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winston-di can do that16:27
jgriffithwinston-d: Fantastic!16:28
jgriffith#action winston-d to try and run devstack exercises.sh16:28
jgriffithSo the issue isn't Cinder related by the way... so you can even run just the default nova-vol16:28
jgriffithit appears to be a networking related issue, but not sure16:29
jgriffithOk... so the other thing that needs to happend SOON is we need to work with the devstack team to make Cinder the default :)16:29
winston-dok, noted. i'll take a look at that16:29
jgriffithI'll get with dtroyer today and try to make that happen16:30
jgriffithOr submit the change and see if they accept it :)16:30
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Vincent_Houremove n-vol?16:30
galthaus_yyeah - that was more my question.16:30
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sdaguejgriffith: question, we've got a team that's got a volume driver almost ready to submit. I assume we should forgo nova and submit straight to cinder at this point?16:31
jgriffithVincent_Hou: galthaus_: It doens't remove it, but rather than modify localrc to use Cinder, Cinder would be default and you'd modify localrc to use Nova-vol16:31
rnirmalswap the default16:31
jgriffithsdague: So it sort of depends on how the email thread regarding how to proceed with nova-volumes goes16:31
winston-dsdague, i believe so if n-vol is to be removed.16:31
galthaus_okay - so shouldn't that be a "bug" and reviewed fix to the devstack "project"16:31
Vincent_Houyes, i was trying cinder recently16:32
jgriffithsdague: To be honest depending on your driver you might want to do both as it could be just a duplicate16:32
sdaguejgriffith: well, where would you like to see it land first :)16:32
jgriffithsdague: Well Cinder of course :)16:32
jgriffithgalthaus_: Sorry, what do you mean?16:32
sdagueI assume it's going to need some community review before it gets in, so instead of managing 2 branches, encouraging them to hit one tree first where it will get the most active review, then port accross later to other trees if it makes sense16:33
rnirmaljgriffith: sdague: any new driver should probably just go in cinder16:33
galthaus_jgriffith: working with dtroyer is the polite thing to do.  But you could also start with a proposal of change of default as well. right?16:33
sdagueok, good, I'll tell them that16:33
galthaus_rnimral: +116:33
rnirmalwe had this discussion a while back on bug fixes only back into n-vol16:33
jgriffithgalthaus_: Ahhh... got ya16:33
galthaus_rnirmal: sorry about name16:34
rnirmalgalthaus_: no harm done16:34
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jgriffithgalthaus_: Yeah, should probably be a blueprint though16:34
Vincent_HouDoes cinder have more features than n-vol now? I mean moving more advanced?16:35
thingeejgriffith: +116:35
rnirmalVincent_Hou: not yet16:35
jgriffithVincent_Hou: not yet16:35
jgriffithVincent_Hou: But I hope to by F316:35
jgriffithVincent_Hou: That's part of the problem, if we have to maintain both code bases it will make it very difficult and unlikely to get new features going16:36
jgriffithOk, any questions about 'status'16:37
jgriffithMoving on to "blueprints" if there are no questions?16:38
jgriffith#topic outstanding blueprints16:38
*** openstack changes topic to "outstanding blueprints"16:38
winston-dso i'm working on openstack-common stuff16:38
winston-djgriffith, sorry, you can move forward with blueprints16:38
jgriffithwinston-d: Excellent!! Let's get a blueprint submitted and assigned to you on that today16:38
jgriffithwinston-d: Have you started that work or do we need to talk about it offline after the meeting?16:39
rnirmaljgriffith: there's already a blueprint for it16:39
jgriffithJust so everybody knows, the idea here is that we've been left in the dust in terms of things Nova has started using out of openstack.common16:40
jgriffithI'd like to get up to speed with them16:40
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jgriffithrnirmal: Yeah, thanks... I wrote it :)16:40
winston-di've started timeutils a little bit.  and yes, we can talk about it offliine16:40
jgriffithrnirmal: But it's a bit "vague" needs details and an assignee16:40
jgriffithwinston-d: Ok, sounds good... we'll chat16:41
jgriffithMandell: Do you know where Josh is at with the logging changes?16:41
rnirmaljgriffith: I can add some details to it, I'll update it16:41
jgriffithrnirmal: Awesome... thanks!16:42
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Mandelljgriffith: He has a working branch and I should be able to rebase it for him and get it submitted for review.16:42
jgriffithMandell: Awesome!!  So winston-d the logging should be covered :)16:43
winston-dgood :)16:43
jgriffithSo this is going to be a pretty big patch, if we need to break it down into pieces that might be a good idea16:43
jgriffithEven taking each openstack.common class per patch16:43
rnirmalI think that would be ideal and easier for people to review too16:43
jgriffithThat way if folks have bandwidth there's an easy way to figure out how to help16:43
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jgriffithrnirmal: yeah, reviewers would greatly appreciate it16:44
Mandellrnirmal: agreed!16:44
jgriffithLet's plan on going that route16:44
winston-di plan to submit multiple patches, timeutils as one, policy, json.., etc.16:44
jgriffithwinston-d: Perfect16:44
winston-dthat's be easier for me too. :)16:44
jgriffithSo the other big things are Availability Zones and Quotas :(16:45
jgriffithI'm going to bring up the Quotas thing again while we're all here16:45
jgriffithI think there was some misunderstanding regarding my submission Monday16:45
jgriffithThat patch was specifically DB/API cleanup16:46
jgriffithNot trying to solve the Quotas issue yet16:46
jgriffithFor that I'm proposing that quota information stays in Nova, based on how the objects are designed it's the only thing that makes sense right now16:46
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jgriffithWe'd then have to add a method in cinder/ that checks that info from Nova on volume_create16:47
jgriffithThat would also require updating th counts etc16:47
jgriffithI've talked with thingee about this a bit and I think we're worked out some good ideas/details16:47
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jgriffithWe talked about a new home including possibly ceilometer etc16:48
renukajgriffith: did the keystone switch turn out to be too much at this point?16:48
jgriffithBut... until Nova does it we're still just duplcating cod16:48
jgriffithrenuka: The keystone switch...16:48
thingeejgriffith: thinking about it more yesterday and thanks to dhellmann too, it would be an additional request if we kept it on nova, versus keystone. We're already sending an auth request to keystone so we can include a request for quota info16:48
jgriffithSo for those that don't know16:49
thingeethat does make the call more complex imo though16:49
thingeemore things to go wrong16:49
* jgriffith looking for link to keystone quota blueprint16:49
renukathingee: i dont understand.16:49
renukathingee: why does making the quota request to keystone (versus nova) make the call more complex?16:50
renukapolicy would need to be in keystone after all16:50
thingeerenuka: you're now make a single request that used to just do auth now do auth and quota check16:50
jgriffithrenuka: I think wht thingee  is getting at is we already talk to keystone, but we don't have any hooks to nova16:50
jgriffiththingee: Sorry... I'll let you speak for yourself :)16:51
winston-dbut quota is stored in nova db?16:51
jgriffithwinston-d: Right now it is yes, but that blueprint proposes changing that16:51
renukaAt the moment, which is not the right thing to do anyway, so they are working on moving it to keystone16:51
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jgriffithSo here's my problem with the keystone method:16:51
thingeewinston-d: correct. to be more clear, keystone wouldn't enforce the quota, cinder's api should16:52
jgriffithI have not been able to get a hold of Everett to find out how that's going16:52
jgriffithMy fear is that it won't be ready in the near future16:52
thingeewinston-d: keystone is just providing the quota for tenant/user. Cinder then has to ask whatever backend what they're currently at16:52
renukathingee: i disagree.. keystone is where policy should go. Different providers may have different rules for quota16:53
jgriffithIf anybody knows Everett's IRC handle or a way to contact him it would be great if we could get a status and see if we can help or at least let him know that we think this blueprint would GREAT to have implemented16:53
thingeerenuka: I agree it should be in central place. I just don't think keystone is the right place.16:53
winston-dthe keystone-quota blueprint, will it land before folsom?16:53
jgriffithrenuka: You mean you think keystone should enforce it as well as hold the information?16:53
jgriffithwinston-d: That's the problem, I don't know16:54
thingeejgriffith. renuka: I agree that whatever is storing the quotas should enforce it as well. less dup code on the different api code16:54
renukaWell keystone's description clearly says it "provides Identity, Token, Catalog and Policy services"16:54
creihtIsn't that more of a general openstack question as to where quotas belong?16:55
jgriffithcreiht: yes16:55
galthaus_Should enforcement be in Keystone?  Wouldn't that mean a lot of calls to keystone?16:55
creihthas "openstack" decided they belong in keystone?16:55
jgriffithcreiht: And I'd also argue that it's up to them to figure out how to get that accepted and how it's implemented16:56
renukaI got the impression that since we have an approved blueprint, it was agreed that it belongs in keystone... but i could be wrong16:56
thingeegalthaus_: the point is it would be tied in with the auth request we would already be making16:56
jgriffithAs well as exactly what their responsibilities are16:56
jgriffithAfter that we follow suite16:56
thingeebut it is making the request more complex. Having the quota stuff on some other project however, is an additional request16:56
galthaus_thingee: doesn't that assume a 1-to-1 action to auth request setup.  Are we maintaining that?16:56
jgriffithrenuka: I would "think" that is true, but I don't know16:56
creihtIt seems until there is official support for quotas in keystone, you shouldn't try to rely on it being there16:57
MandellSince we're core, what we need to be sure of is that we work with the correct openstack way of doing quotas at the end of folsom.16:57
creihtYou should probably go ahead and implement quotas16:57
jgriffithcreiht: And there's my point :)16:57
thingeerenuka: I think you make an excellent point on the description of keystone though16:57
jgriffithMy proposal is that unless we hear something different regarding the status, we implement it with a check back to Nova for now16:57
winston-dhey creiht :) didn't notice you were here.16:58
jgriffithThen if this lands we do the same patch work that everybody else is goign to have to do16:58
renukajgriffith: how does that not make the request more "complex"16:58
rnirmalI still disagree using nova for the quotas16:58
creihtwinston-d: just lurking16:58
jgriffithrenuka: Regardless of whether it's more complex or not, right now you can't even do it16:58
thingeeI have to drop for a second everyone16:58
rnirmalthe quota code could land in common with the projects maintaing it in their respective dbs still something common lands16:59
jgriffithrnirmal: Why?  I have a hard time stomaching duplicating all of that code and trying to keep it in synch16:59
DuncanTrenuka: You can't generally cache the result of a quota check for starters, where as you can an auth check16:59
rnirmalwell the only duplication would be the db tables16:59
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renukajgriffith: so lets just agree that complexity has nothing to do with this decision ;) We are making a quick fix, which will be changed in the future... because we can certainly not depend on nova to do policy checking for cinder16:59
rnirmalif we can get the code in openstack-common16:59
jgriffithrnirmal: But all of the "real" code is actually the DB code itself so what does that buy you?16:59
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rnirmalbut talking to nova doesn't fell right either for the quotas17:00
jgriffithrenuka: I htink that may be a reasonable summary17:00
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thingee_zzrenuka: what was the summary, sorry, dropped.17:00
jgriffith10:59 < renuka> jgriffith: so lets just agree that complexity has nothing to do with this decision ;) We are making a  quick fix, which will be changed in the future... because we can certainly not depend on nova to do  policy checking for cinder17:01
renukathingie_zz: we will depend on nova for quotas as a quick and dirty way of doing things17:01
jgriffithSo there's one other option that people may liek btter17:01
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jgriffithlike better (stupid keyboard)17:01
renukathingie_zz: which we will change to the appropriate policy manager, keystone or otherwise, asap17:01
jgriffithImplement our own version temporarily, becuase copying the nova version is overkill17:02
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renukajgriffith: thats more correct, and more work17:04
DuncanT+1 for our own version... less ocuplign with nova is better17:04
creihtpossibly more work, certainly less cruft :)17:04
jgriffithrenuka: Well, may not be more work17:04
renukaso overall, +117:04
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creihtand I think that is probably the best route17:04
creihtespecially considering the timeline you guys are looking at17:04
jgriffithThe reason I say that is that the implementation in Nova has to deal with Cores, instances blah blah blah17:04
jgriffithWe have to deal with volume count and space utilization17:05
jgriffithOk... so it sounds like we're leaning towards our own temporary implemenation?17:06
jgriffiththingee: are you puking?17:06
Vincent_HouDoes other projects have the same quota issue except cinder?17:06
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thingee(in two meetings)17:06
jgriffithVincent_Hou: Nope,not yet at least17:06
winston-dquantum should have some problem i guess17:07
jgriffithIt's only in NOva right now, but I suspect quantum will need to figure it out too17:07
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renukajgriffith: any idea what quantum does17:07
creihtyeah I was just wondering about what quantum does for it17:07
jgriffithrenuka: Right now I don't see anything regarding quotas in their code, but I will ask dwent about it17:07
* creiht has to run17:08
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rnirmalalso swift most likely has it's one quotas17:08
winston-dcreiht, see u17:08
winston-dswift is different, it is like totally separate/standalone service17:09
renukawinston-d: the idea is for cinder to be completely standalone17:09
winston-dand has nothing to do with nova17:09
jgriffithActually swift may not be a bad model to look at17:09
jgriffithwe're trying to do the same sort of thing17:09
winston-dbut cinder/volume only works when attached to instance.17:10
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jgriffithwinston-d: nope17:10
jgriffithwinston-d: The idea is to be a standalone block service17:10
renukajgriffith: which also leaves me concerned about attach/detach, so could we talk about that at some point (continuing from the email)17:10
jgriffithwinston-d: BSaaS17:10
jgriffithrenuka: k, we'll do that next17:11
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Vincent_Houwork independently?17:11
jgriffithVincent_Hou: Well, to an extent17:11
Vincent_Houit sounds cool17:11
jgriffithVincent_Hou: The idea is that anybody could use Cinder to manage block storage17:11
winston-di see. lookin' forward to that17:11
jgriffithThen do whatever they want with it, it doesn't have to be Nova only17:12
jgriffithCould be any openstack project or even something outside of openstack17:12
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jgriffith#action jgriffith do some more research and come up with prototype of quota implementation17:12
jgriffithrenuka: attach/detach?17:12
rnirmaloh we are already overtime17:13
jgriffithOh wow... way over time!17:13
renukaperhaps we continue it on the email thread :)17:13
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jgriffithWorks for me.. or in #cinder17:13
rnirmalyes I had some comments, I'll reply to that email thread17:13
jgriffithSorry we went so long17:13
renukasounds good17:13
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winston-dcould you guys keep in me the loop if you want to do that in email?17:13
jgriffithThanks everyone!17:13
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openstackMeeting ended Wed Jul 11 17:14:00 2012 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:14
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openstackMinutes (text):
rnirmalwinston-d: sure17:14
DuncanTKeeping everybody in the loop would be good...17:14
rnirmalhmm was that thread just sent to core, will cc the general list17:14
thingeethanks everyone :)17:14
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