Monday, 2012-10-22

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danwenthi folks!20:59
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danwentback to meeting in the virtual world :)20:59
salv-orlandohello people20:59
danwenti guess after the meeting we'll need to meet at a virtual bar and have virtual drinks… sounds like less fun20:59
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garykhi guys21:00
danwentok, let's get started, since we have a ton to cover21:00
gongyshhope all guys are back safe.21:00
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danwent#startmeeting quantum21:00
openstackMeeting started Mon Oct 22 21:00:46 2012 UTC.  The chair is danwent. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'quantum'21:00
danwentgongysh, did you or garyk get the award for longest distance traveled?21:01
danwentprobably garyk?21:01
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garyki had 8 hours at heathrow :)21:01
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danwent#link agenda:
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salv-orlandoI got flu on the plane :/21:01
danwentwe have a ton to cover, so let's get going21:01
danwentok, apologies for starting the discussion on who had the worst flight :P21:02
danwent#info Grizzly release schedule has been finalized
garyki had the worst and the longest21:02
danwentthe big news is that there is no big news21:02
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danwentrelease schedule is following pretty much the same pattern as folsom21:02
danwentthree milestones, fairly long RC time.  two weeks between release and next summit.21:03
garykif possible we should also try and contain bugs21:03
danwentgaryk: ?21:03
danwentgaryk: sorry, don't understand the last statement21:04
garykdanwent: it seems like lately there are quite a few bugs opened. we should try and make sure that the open bugs stays low21:04
garykdanwent: does that make sense21:04
danwentgaryk: ah yes, in fact, we'll talk about that later down on the agenda21:04
garykok, sorry for the interruption21:04
danwentas I wanted to discuss the set of bugs open against folsom and when we should target a stable folsom update21:04
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danwentno worries21:04
danwent#topic Grizzly-121:05
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danwentso the Grizzly-1 date is actually just a month away21:05
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danwentso I wanted to spend a chunk of this meeting making sure we have blueprints created for key community tasks needed early in grizzly21:05
danwentas rkukura pointed out during the summit, there's a need for us to do a better job as a community creating blueprints21:06
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danwenta blueprint should be good enough that a reveiwer can read it before reviewing the code and understand what you are trying to achieve, and roughly how you plan to achieve it21:06
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garykit will certainly help the review process21:07
salv-orlandosalv_orlando: +1 (this also implies we as cores must review blueprints too)21:07
garykand documentation21:07
danwentlet's all hold each other to a higher standard.  If you go to review something that is bigger than a bug fix, and you find that the blueprint is not sufficient, moving forward we should as the feature creator to improve the blueprint before reviewing21:07
rkukuraearly feedback on the blueprints is also important, well before the review21:07
danwentgaryk: agreed.  one idea i had been thinking about was requiring docs along with a change-set, but that is hard in practice.21:07
danwentgaryk: but i'm open to ideas there… leaving all docs to the end of the release is bad21:08
garykdanwent: if we follow the suggestions for the detailed blueprints then it should be easier to port to docs later21:08
salv-orlandodanwent, garyk: that is feasible IMHO. Just a matter of establishing rules for things.21:08
garyksalv-orlando: agreed21:09
gongysha good spec is ok.21:09
salv-orlandoA desirable side effect would be avoiding feature creep21:09
danwentsalv-orlando: are you suggesting docs in the admin guide before code is committed, or just a blueprint that people thing is good enough to turn into docs?21:09
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danwentthe issue is that often features arrive in several commits, making the former difficult.21:10
salv-orlandoIdeally one would like to have the documents before the code is merged. Then this could be evaluated case by case21:10
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salv-orlandodanwent: agree. Let's see what we can do offline21:11
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danwentok.  salv-orlando, can you put together a proposal for this?  It sounds like something we should have on the quantum development wiki page for (how do i implement a feature?)21:11
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danwentgaryk: sounds like you're interested as well.  perhaps you and salv-orlando can coordinate21:12
garykdanwent: ok21:12
gongyshI will review. Haha21:12
salv-orlandodanwent: sure21:12
danwentgongysh: :)21:12
danwentOk, so i'm going to quickly move through some  of the quick community topics, to identify who will be putting blueprints together on the key community topics discussed at teh summit21:13
danwentCI gating (nati_ueno ?  mnewby ?)21:13
danwentdo we have a blueprint that we are using for this?21:14
nati_uenoI'm working on to work21:14
mnewbydanwent: Not sure21:14
nati_uenodanwent: We can reuse this
garykdanwent: dan prince is intersted in getting smokestack working with quantum21:14
nati_uenoPlease assign it to me21:14
danwentok, this will be the top focus of every quantum team meeting until we do.21:14
danwentor rather, until we have a gate running with quantum21:14
garyki think that we should maybe invest in the smokestack like nova.21:14
mnewbygaryk: What is smokestack executing?21:15
nati_uenogaryk: +1 for smokestack21:15
danwentnati_ueno: ok, updated the BP, assigned it to you, and updated other fields21:15
mnewbygaryk, nati_ueno: what is the relationship between smokestack and tempest?21:15
garykmnewby: as far as i understand it runs installation packages, puppet moduels etc. launches vm's and test traffic between them. i can ask dan for extra details21:15
nati_uenomnewby: Yes. It is another CI process.21:16
danwentwill smokestack continue to run even once we have full tempest integration?21:16
danwentI am not sure if they are duplicate efforts, or have different goals.21:16
mnewbyit sounds like duplicative21:16
mnewbyit's useful, but if developers can't run the tests themselves i question it's longterm value21:17
mnewbyOh well, I guess we do both.21:17
garyki think that i should be used for our gating.21:18
mnewbyI'm more interested in single-host (devstack) testing (at least initially), but for gating we'll need all of the aboev.21:18
danwentgaryk: can you ask dan prince about the long-term direction of the openstack community regarding tempest vs. smokestack?  What i've been told to date is that our efforts should be focused on tempest (though i'll be grateful for more testing, regardless of platform)21:20
garykdanwent: sure.21:20
mnewbyThe annoyance is that the tests are in ruby.21:20
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mnewby(for smokestack)21:20
gongyshI need a facility that make sure each patch will not break our dear quantum in the end.21:20
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danwentgongysh: that is what gating does.  what i've been told so far is that the CI team is moving toward gating on tempest in the long-term21:21
danwentthough in the short-term they also gate on devstack exercise scripts + smokestack (I believe)21:21
danwentok, got to keep moving.  nati_ueno: any blockers in terms of gating?21:22
danwentjust fixing issues with
nati_uenoI think just debug exesice.sh21:22
nati_uenoI'll request merge for devstack until this week21:22
danwentdo you anticipate having that done soon?  I'd say to escalate any issues you're having to the entire core team, as its critical we get this going21:22
nati_uenoYes soon21:23
danwentok, garyk and I are both core devstack devs, so we should be able to review quickly.21:23
danwentok, next topick21:23
danwentrelated: tempest tests21:23
danwentnati_ueno, maru  blueprints here?21:23
nati_uenorelated ?21:23
nati_uenoMaybe, we should have the blueprint in QA team project21:24
mnewbyI would agree21:24
danwentnati_ueno: yes, i'm fine with the BP being there, just really looking to make sure someone is working on it.21:24
nati_uenoOK I'll create one21:24
danwentok, please send it out to the team so we can track.  there was also someone from rackspace who said he would have developers for this.21:25
danwentanyone remember the name?  I'll have to look it up.21:25
danwenthe was at the meeting, sitting behind me.21:25
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nati_uenodanwent: gotcha21:25
danwentmnewby: thx.  anyone know daryl's email or irc?21:26
danwentwas he on that old thread we had going?21:26
mnewbyDaryl Walleck <>21:26
danwentOk, let's loop him into the discussion21:27
danwentmnewby: do you expect to create a BP, or just work with daryl + nachi?21:27
mnewbydanwent: I haven't really worked with BPs, what is requied?21:27
danwentBPs are just a feature/bug-tracking tools where you describe a new capability you will be adding to the system.21:28
danwentas we mentioned above, for features, they should include use cases, design, and doc for configuring + using the feature.  Might be slightly different for test cases though.21:29
danwentI think during the summit we agreed that this work would be discussed during the weekly temptest meetings, but it would be good if someone reported back progress to the quantum meeting21:30
danwentas having good system test is critical to the success of quantum long-term, especially as it grows in complexity.21:30
nati_uenoOK I'll attend both of meeting and report it21:30
danwentok, got to keep moving21:30
danwentnati_ueno: thx21:30
danwentdatabase upgrade: markmcclain , salv-orlando21:30
markmcclainI can help with it21:31
danwenthad a work item from summit that markmcclain was proposing a mechanism other than sqlalchemy-migrate21:31
salv-orlandoI haven't done anything beyond looking at how we can use alembic21:31
salv-orlandofor solving issue with plugin-specific upgrade paths21:31
danwentlet's get a BP together on this that describe the trade-offs and a design21:31
danwentwe need to get this infrastructure in before we start significantly changing the DB21:31
salv-orlandonp. markmcclain - I'll send you an email for stealing some of your time on IRC21:32
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garykdanwent: salv-orlando: i was thinking that we have the user first upgrade to folsom and then convert to quantum. is this relevant21:32
danwentok, can one of you create a BP and assign to G-1 with essential priority?21:32
salv-orlandodanwent: sure21:32
danwentgaryk: you're talking about converting from nova-network to quantum?21:32
salv-orlandogaryk: we are looking at Quantum to Quantum upgrades at the moment21:32
danwentthat's slightly different, but also useful21:33
garykdanwent: yes. salv-orlando: ok21:33
salv-orlandoperhaps we can have a separate blueprints from nova-network to Quantum migration21:33
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danwenti had it on the agenda for today, but then took it off thinking we shouldn't have time.21:33
danwentbut if you want to create a nova-network conversion blueprint, i think that makes sense.21:33
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danwentgaryk: can you make a bp for this?  either way, its good to track it.21:34
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danwentnova gaps21:34
garykdanwent: sure21:34
danwentthree sub-topics21:34
danwentsecurity groups (arosen / nachi)21:34
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danwentsecurity groups api is already in review, as it was a miss from folsom.21:34
gongyshwe have much talk for security groups in design summit session.21:35
danwentarosen, i haven't seen the blueprint, but probably a good idea to freshen it up, given the above conversation21:35
gongyshwe should have a   wrap up.21:35
arosendanwent:  will do21:35
danwentgongysh: let's have the discussion around the blueprint21:35
gongyshyes. pointint to the etherpad21:35
danwentaaron, i'm guessing the blueprint needs to be expanded to our new grizzly standards.21:35
amotokiI think is related to this.21:36
garykwith gongysh reviewing21:36
danwentnote: there is a ton of stuf we could do around firewalling and filtering.21:36
gongyshgaryk: haha. bad guy.21:36
danwentbut the most critical thing we HAVE to accomplish in grizzly is getting security groups in quantum with support for overlapping IPs.21:37
danwentthat was a black-eye for quantum in folsom.21:37
ijw1And for multiple interfaces in some sensible fashion.21:37
danwentijw1: agreed.  that's already tackled in aaron's proposal as well.21:37
danwentok, multi-host21:37
amotokiIt is a good idea to merge arosen's security group API first before moving the next.21:38
ijw1Where's Aaron's proposal?21:38
danwentamotoki: merge with what?21:38
amotokidanwent: the current patch under review from arosen21:38
danwentijw1: this was actually covered at the folsom summit for folsom, he can point to the preso21:38
danwentarosen: does BP link to dave's presentation?21:38
arosenijw1:  I'll put up the openstack-manual documentation i'm working on that should help shed some light as well.21:39
arosendanwent:  yes it does.21:39
danwentamotoki: ah, i agree.21:39
danwentI'd like to make sure the base security groups stuff is in very early, which is why arosen and nati_ueno are working on it already.21:39
arosenThis is the review:
danwentok, only 20 mins left and much to cover :(21:39
danwentquickly, multi-host21:39
nati_uenoI didn't started yet. Just play with firewall.py21:40
danwentwhat is active blueprint for this, and who owns it?21:40
nati_uenoI updated bp for multi-host
danwentnati_ueno: this is just for dhcp?21:40
nati_uenoNo not just dhcp21:40
nati_uenoI should update it21:40
danwentnati_ueno: i'm also a bit worried that you seem to be volunteering for all of the blueprints21:40
ijw1What of the routing aspects of multihost?21:40
ijw1Oh, sorry, bit late with that ;)21:40
danwentnati_ueno: can you update BP name to avoid confusion?21:41
nati_uenodanwent: I got it21:41
danwentgongysh: are you contributing to multi_host stuff as well?21:41
gongyshnati_ueno: don't u want me to do it?21:41
nati_uenodanwent: It seem I can't update bp id21:41
danwentah, launchpad...21:41
nati_uenogongysh: Ether way is OK :)21:41
nati_uenogongysh: Do you want to do this one?21:42
danwentnati_ueno: since you have so much on your plate, having gongysh head it up makes sense to me.21:42
nati_uenodanwent: I got it21:42
gongyshnati_ueno: I hope I can help u to do it.21:42
danwentnati_ueno: title of blueprint is good…, mentions both dhcp and L221:42
nati_uenoI updated whiteboard today21:43
danwenti updated the link:
danwentok, keep moving21:43
nati_uenoOhh It can be updated!21:43
danwentnova gaps, metadata. markmcclain, you or carlp handling this?21:43
markmcclainI'm working on metadata21:43
markmcclainI hoped to have code today… looks like tomorrow21:43
danwentgreat, this will be a huge help21:44
danwentwe already have a bp targeted for G-1 for that21:44
danwentgaryk: planning on creating a blueprint on the nova/quantum flow and vif-plugging stuff?21:44
garykdanwent: yes, i'll do it tomorrow21:44
danwentgaryk: cool.  for the LB plugin in particular, I see that as essential.21:45
garykdanwent: agreed21:45
ijw1garyk: drop me a mail when you've done it, ta21:45
garykijw1: will do21:45
garykijw1: as long as you do not heckle21:45
danwentsalv-orlando: are you creating blueprints around the API infrastructure for higher-level services like LBaaS?21:46
salv-orlandodanwent: yep21:46
danwentI think rkukura is likely interested in helping with API extension framework stuff as well.21:46
gongyshdoes the separate LBaas will use our API infra?21:46
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markmcclainI think it should21:47
danwentgongysh: higher level services will be able to be loaded and run indepdent of the main plugin, and that's something we don't really support now21:47
danwentroman (spelling?) from mirantis had a good slide that discussed this at the summit21:47
ijw1I think a LBaaS will plug into quantum as a client; I don't necessarily know that it's a part of the same API endpoint.21:47
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gongyshthen what do we mean by API infrastructure for higher-level services like LBaaS?21:48
danwentijw1: current plan is same endpoint, though I'm not sure the discussion is final.21:48
salv-orlandoI think we talked about this a bit :)21:48
danwentgongysh: perhaps best to take a look at salv-orlando's blueprint, and at the sessions he and sasha presented21:48
salv-orlandosalv-orlando: I will start an email discussion offline once the blueprint is filed21:48
gongyshok. I will talk to salv offline.21:49
danwentanyway, we have 12 mins left in the meeting, so let's leave those details for offline discussion21:49
danwentclient-lib + cli enhancements21:49
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danwenti assume gongysh and markmcclain will be coordinating here21:49
danwentnote, these should actually be created as blueprints in the python-quantumclient project21:49
markmcclainwill do21:49
danwentbut we will discuss them in this meeting21:50
danwenthorizon next steps.  amotoki, nati_ueno ?  filing these under horizon?21:50
amotokiBP is not filed yet.21:50
danwentbut please send a note to the quantum team or post the BPs next meeting so peopel are aware of them.21:50
nati_uenoI got it21:50
amotokidanwent: sure.21:50
danwentIPv6 stuff.  markmcclain, you will file?21:50
amotokinati_ueno: I will send you a mail later.21:51
markmcclainand have a few folks who'd said that help with code21:51
nati_uenoamotoki: gotcha21:51
danwentOk.  rkukura where you planning on doing a BP for your modular plugin stuff in G-1?21:51
danwentOk, please create and target.21:51
rkukurafirst steps21:51
danwentI know there are other items that people want to do in G-1, and that's fine, I just wanted to cover key community wide topics here.  Are there other items that we think should be priority high or above for G-1?21:52
danwent(note: i'm leaving the LBaaS stuff out for now, as they are doing a separeate meeting)21:52
nati_uenoVPN stuff is not G1?21:52
nati_uenoand Service enhancement21:52
markmcclainVPN is a blueprint I'm going to write21:53
danwentnati_ueno: I figure we had a lot on our plate for G-1.  If mark things we can tackle in in G-1 as well, that's great21:53
amotokiregarind firewalling, i plan to write a document during G-1.21:53
danwentbut I was thinking other services would probably wait until G-2 before they were a major community focus.21:53
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nati_uenodanwent:  I got it21:53
danwent#info: as a heads up for those interested in LBaaS.  they have a separeate weekly meeting on thursday mornings now, see:
salv-orlandodanwent: my plea is for getting service insertion complete in G-1 before moving to the other services21:54
sasha_I will also write a blueprint for L3/services so that it is there for comments ... and also talk offline to Salvatore21:54
danwentsalv-orlando: that's a good point.21:55
markmcclain+1 to get service insertion in early21:55
danwentamotoki: feel free to put together a BP, but I want to make sure we have main service insertion stuff somewhat settled before we actually start coding on all types of higher-level services.21:55
danwentsalv-orlando: ok, let's jack up the priority of that BP for G-121:56
danwentand make sure we really focus effort there.21:56
amotokidanwent: I feel so too.21:56
danwentok, 4 minutes :(21:56
garykdanwent: lets talk about bugs next week21:56
danwentok, sounds like we'll need to leave the discussion of sub-teams to tomorrow, but I just wanted to send out this link with some of my thoughts:
danwentgaryk: agreed, let's just highlight the list21:57
nati_uenoWhere can I know sub-teams?21:57
danwent#info here is list of current bugs tagged for possible folsom-backport:
danwentnati_ueno: all info i've put together so far is on that etherpad link.  feel free to comment there and we'll talk about it next week.21:57
danwentgaryk is our master of folsom stable21:57
garykdanwent: there is no beer team!21:57
nati_uenodanwent: I got it21:57
salv-orlandodanwent: more than happy to start rolling on service insertion (and there goes my sleep)21:58
danwentplease help him out by making sure all bugs relevant to folsom are tagged with folsom-backport-potential21:58
danwentwe should also start thinking about a date for a folsom-stable release update21:58
danwentlet's nail that down next week, along with a list of bugs we think must be fixed in that release.21:59
danwentgaryk: sound reasonable?  anything to add?21:59
garykdanwent: not at the moment. tomorrow i'll go over the bugs etc.21:59
danwentgaryk: awesome21:59
danwent#topic open discussion21:59
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danwentI will send an email to the list with my thoughts on how to handle possible influx of plugins + drivers from vendors in grizzly22:00
gongyshdanwent, nati: can u agree to assign multi-host to me?22:00
danwentso far we have had a policy that any plugin must has a core dev who offers to stand behind it22:00
danwentgongysh: yes, I will22:00
nati_uenogongysh: I agree22:00
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nati_uenogongysh: Thanks!22:00
gongyshU are welcome22:00
danwentok, anything else we need to discuss here before we sign off?22:00
gongyshgood nati_ueno.22:01
gongyshI hope pagination can get in for G122:01
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danwentsalv-orlando: can you chat with gongysh about pagination after the meeting?  I know you had thoughts on nit.22:01
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danwentok, hope you all had a fun summit, now its back to work :)22:01
salv-orlandodanwent, gongysh: sure22:01
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openstackMeeting ended Mon Oct 22 22:01:55 2012 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)22:01
openstackMinutes (text):
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danwentthanks all22:02
danwentAh…. and please see salv-orlando's note about starting up review days again!22:02
markvoelker1Night all!22:02
garykthanks and good night22:02
danwentsalv-orlando: thanks for sending out that note22:02
salv-orlandogongysh: I am out for a coffee will be back in 5 minutes22:02
salv-orlandodanwent: np22:02
gongyshok. enjoy.22:02
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danwentgongysh: assigned to you
gongyshok, thanks22:04
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salv-orlandogongysh: about pagination, I think we should look at the problem from the server side first and then from the client side.22:12
salv-orlandoTo give you the general picture, from the server-side other openstack project use initial_token and offset mechanism22:12
gongyshnova and glance both have a implementation.22:12
salv-orlandowhich works fairly well with db_queries22:13
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salv-orlandoon the other hand, I've heard people from Horizon complaining that this was not the best approach for them (perhaps you've heard them too).22:14
salv-orlandoIt seems they like the page_num + page_size approach22:14
gongyshI heard some.22:15
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ijw1Matter of taste, I'd argue; I prefer the proposed solution but being in step with everyone else is probably more valuable (if everyone else has, in fact, done it the other way)22:15
salv-orlandoAnd I am not sure we want to implement this kind of mechanism on the server. What are your thoughts? For the server side I would stick with token + offset22:15
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salv-orlandoijw: I totally agree with you.22:16
salv-orlandotoken + offset if what nova and glance do22:16
ijw1salv-orlando: what do you mean by token + offset?22:16
gongyshI think we should use the same way nova and glance adopts.22:16
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salv-orlandoYou specificy the id of the first element you want to retrieve (the token) and the number of subsequent elements that should be returned22:16
ijw1so not offset but length then.22:16
ijw1Well, I can see why you might want to do that but it's not terribly SQL-compatible.22:17
salv-orlandoijw: sorry my english skills drop a lot after 11PM22:17
ijw1SELECT * FROM TABLE OFFSET 10 LIMIT 10 (or whatever it is, and it varies slightly by backend) is the standard SQL statement I've seen22:17
gongyshit is mysql way.22:18
ijw1Does it also work efficiently in PgSQL?22:18
salv-orlandoI actually want to do whatever takes the minor toll on the db.22:18
gongyshI don't know, but I think the sqlalchemy will help us.22:18
gongyshit should hide the SQL dialect.22:19
salv-orlandoOn the token based approach, I do not see a solution that would prevent you from going through an awful lot of record each time22:19
salv-orlandobut that's probably me just being dumb22:19
danwentgongysh + salv-orlando: were both of you in horizon discussion when they talked about new pagination model?22:20
ijw1gongysh: I see nothing obvious in MySQL that says it works by key.  It seems to be LIMIT offset, length22:20
salv-orlandodanwent: I was there22:20
ijw1salv-orlando: I'm with you on that22:20
danwentsalv-orlando: ok, great, just wanted to make sure22:20
salv-orlandoit seems Horizon people would like the page size/page number approach22:20
ijw1I've done this sort of stuff many times before and key + length sounds bizarre to me, it's usually page + length or offset + length22:21
ijw1(plus ensuring that your sort includes the ID row)22:21
salv-orlandoijw1: I've always done it that way too22:21
ijw1I'm reasonably confident that the first option is really really slow and the latter two are supported directly by most DBs22:21
salv-orlandoactually I implemented pagination in the style currently used by nova for Essex - did not get merged for time constraints.22:22
salv-orlandoUnfortunately the code is now lost, I presume22:22
ijw1Does anything else do pagination at present?22:22
ijw1Or is it a good idea waiting to happen?22:22
salv-orlandonova definitely supports that for server list22:23
gongyshglance does well too.22:23
gongyshSo I think what we will do is to wrap up how they do this and learn from them.22:23
salv-orlandoanyway… is there any significant cons wrt adopting the page size + page number (i.e.: OFFSET + LIMIT) approach?22:24
salv-orlandoI don't see any, but perhaps gongysh might spent some time looking at existing implementations and compare them with the OFFSET/LIMIT approach22:24
ijw1I prefer object offset, personally, as it's a tiny bit more flexible (you can switch page size and you don't have to recalc the offset) but I would go with that method.  And nova is loading all items and doing the offset, checking the source22:25
gongyshsalv-orlando: do u want to implement it in a distinguished way in quantum?22:25
ijw1 e.g.22:26
gongyshBUT maybe glance and nova are using different ways.22:26
salv-orlandonot unless we are able to prove that a different implementation will give an advantage22:26
ijw1I imagine it's possible to write a function that takes an SQL query and adds the limits to it, one that could even end up in openstack-common22:26
ijw1(certainly I could do this with the ORMs I've used before now)22:26
gongyshI will have a investigation and report to core team.22:27
salv-orlandoI think marker is actually the identifier of a token22:27
gongyshand then see what and how we will do.22:27
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gongyshsalv-orlando: is that ok?22:28
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salv-orlandogongysh: sounds good to me...22:28
ijw1gongysh :whatever you find ned to go to the mailing list because if it sucks for Quantum it sucks for everything.22:28
gongyshijw1: my bottom line is if it sucks for everything, it sucks for Quantum.22:29
gongyshWe will not allow Quantum  sucks first22:30
ijw1I just don't want to see other people wasting time, that's all22:31
gongyshsee u. back to bed22:31
gongyshI will send out to mailing list as well.22:31
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