Friday, 2012-11-02

devananda#startmeeting db00:00
openstackMeeting started Fri Nov  2 00:00:06 2012 UTC.  The chair is devananda. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.00:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'db'00:00
devanandahi all!00:00
devanandaso who all is here?00:00
* dragondm waves00:00
* devananda hopes others trickle in00:01
* dragondm thinks likewise00:01
devanandathere are 4 big topics from the summit, and jog0 added 2 items to the agenda00:01
devanandalets see how quickly we can go :)00:02
devananda#topic db-common / oslo00:02
*** openstack changes topic to "db-common / oslo"00:02
devanandaanyone here to update on db-common?00:02
devanandalet's try this another way since it's just 3 of us for now00:03
devananda#topic open discussion00:03
sdague<= just got here00:03
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion"00:03
jog0lets start with an easy one00:04
jog0 nova/db/api allows for more then one nova-compute managing a single host00:05
jog0do we still need that?
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driptonLooks like nobody is sure.00:06
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dragondm*blink* I can't think of a good use case...00:06
sdagueI'd guess no, where's it actually used?00:06
devanandai can't think of any reason for it either00:06
driptonIs there significant benefit to removing it?00:06
sdaguethat's got to have feedback from some of the nova core folks though. I'd say suggest a remove patch and see what people say :)00:06
jog0dripton: lets confusing code00:07
jog0sdague: I agree00:07
driptonagreed, but it's a compatibility change so you might get pushback.  Worth a try.00:07
devanandaack-grep for it... lots of hits outside of db/api00:07
dragondmIt's used in a few places, but many parts of the code just do [0] on the return00:07
dragondmi.e. nova/compute/api.py00:07
devanandascheduler/manage and scheduler/driver as well00:08
devanandai'm not sure if it's in their plans, but i wonder if it would have any use to baremetal driver00:08
jog0I can propose a patch and see how it goes00:08
jog0AFAIK bare metal goes the other way00:08
dragondmPlus I can think of things that would produce odd results architecturally if there was more than 1 compute on the host.00:08
jog0instead of multiple services controlling a single node, its a one service controlling multiple nodes00:09
dragondmYah, I can see multiple hosts on a compute, but not the reverse.00:09
devanandajog0: yes, they do that currently00:09
devanandaand had to add an extra "node" field to accomodate that00:09
devanandahowever i can see a need for the opposite at some point00:09
sdagueI guess that was actually a use case that came up, instead of doing the bare metal the way it's done, just run a bunch of computes on one host, each talking to a physical node00:09
devanandaie, >1 compute node sharing control over the same group of hw resources00:10
devanandaotherwise 1 n-cpu instance is a SPoF for a whole _lot_ of hw00:10
devanandaafaik NTT isn't doing that yet, but i don't see another solution, and I know they eventually want HA00:10
devanandasdague: yea, that came up but is terrible :)00:11
jog0devananda: true, but although the DB supports this model the code doesn't at all00:11
devanandatry scaling that to 1000's of hw nodes00:11
dragondmdon't want to do that.00:11
sdaguedevananda: hey, just saying :)00:11
dragondm(That's the architecture of the pre-Nova rackspace code. It dosen't scale)00:11
devanandafair 'nuf :)00:12
devanandamoving on?00:12
jog0devananda: wouldn't it make more sense to do the bare metal provisioning nodes  as a  RR queue?  like the scheduler or network?00:12
devanandajog0: afaik different groups want to do schedulng in different ways for baremetal...00:12
* devananda is easily distracted...00:13
jog0+1 moving on00:13
* dragondm nods00:13
driptonnext topic?00:13
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devanandadb-archiving and db-cleanup are the most interesting to me right now :)00:13
devananda#topic db-cleanup00:13
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devanandai've posted a doc with some guidelines on using session and transactions00:14
devanandaand starting to work through db/sqlalchemy/ bringing things into line with that00:14
driptondo you have a link to the doc?00:14
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dragondmIt would be *very* nice to not create a new session for each db call.00:15
devanandawhere to put the doc was briefly discussed in nova meeting earlier today00:15
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devanandamy feeling is it should become part of db-common00:15
devanandaso for now, living in makes sense to me00:15
devanandaas that will, aiui, get absorbed by db-common00:16
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sdaguedevananda: so most of that low level mapping is to mysql, any idea on how some of those things map in the pgsql case?00:16
devanandasdague: not really, no00:16
devanandai'd love input from someone who does00:16
devanandadragondm: yes. and to avoid creating transactions just for a single write :)00:17
sdaguehonestly, I don't know either. But as we try to make pgsql a first class citizen I'm a little concerned about overoptimizing the way sqlalchemy works to get mysql behavior right00:17
dragondmPlus the whole detatched object issue...00:17
devanandaany pgsql guys are welcome to chime in // help with that optimization00:18
devanandai'm just doing what i know, which is mysql ;)00:18
sdaguefair :)00:18
dragondmI am familliar w/ both00:18
devanandadragondm: sounds like you just volunteered :)00:18
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dragondmI can look it over.00:18
devananda#action dragondm to make sure session optimizations wont kill pgsql00:19
sdaguehopefully that gets easier soon, as there is devstack patch I need to review that will let it install pgsql00:19
driptonsdague: excellent idea00:19
devanandasdague: ++00:19
devanandaanything else on db-cleanup?00:20
sdague#link if anyone is interested in helping validate it00:20
jog0two things00:20
jog0the db api has been added piecemeal over time00:21
dragondmIt's a junk drawer00:21
jog0and can use a good makeover00:21
jog0such as remove duplicate DB APIs00:21
jog0or ones that have overlapping functionality etc00:22
driptonCan we do it safely without breaking out-of-tree users of the API?00:22
driptonOr do we need a deprecation period?00:22
jog0dripton: nova/db/api is not a stable public API00:22
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jog0so AFAIK we can do whatever we want00:22
dragondmalso +100000:22
jog0so to start with perhaps we can break down the API to categories and review  the code and make a list of what can be removed00:23
jog0the  calls are broken down into categories with '#####' between them00:24
devanandadb/sqlalchemy/api is already fairly well organized00:24
dragondmeventually to be moved to their own modules?00:24
sdaguejog0: is there a blueprint in for it? Agree it would be good to get technical debt out of there00:24
jog0I count 43 dividers in the code00:24
jog0sdague: for now its in db-cleanup00:24
jog0unless we want to break it out00:24
sdagueit probably makes sense to break up db-cleanup into more discrete tasks00:25
jog0sdague: I agree, db-cleanup is a catch all until we are able to break down everything00:25
devanandasdague: ++. so far i see 2 sub-tasks00:26
devanandasessions/transactions and api cruft00:26
sdagueblueprints can have deps, so you could make other blueprints that are the prereqs for cleanup00:26
driptonI'll volunteer to look for any unused functions in and make a patch to remove them.00:26
sdagueso you still get them collected together, but they are small enough that you could say one was done at grizzly-2, for instance00:26
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jog0dripton:  I don't think too many are unused -- I did that test a while back, but some may be able to be consolidated00:27
devananda#action dripton hunt for unused api calls00:27
devanandadripton: thanks :)00:27
driptonjog0: if I don't find any then that's okay -- it won't take too long00:27
jog0devananda: another action item for what sdague  said00:27
jog0dripton: agreed00:27
devanandaanother aspect of api cleanup jog0 brought up earlier is objects leaking out00:28
devananda#action create add'l bps and link them under db-cleanup00:28
jog0the plan  there was to add a debug version of nova/db/api that would introspect all return values and hunt for sqlalchemy objects00:28
jog0unless someone has a better idea ...00:29
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jog0I can write the patch and get a list of all the abstraction violations for next week00:30
devananda#action jog0 find db/api abstraction violations00:30
devanandamoving on, since cleanup is an unfortunately huge topic ...00:31
devananda#topic db-archiving00:31
*** openstack changes topic to "db-archiving"00:31
devanandaarchiving was a pretty lively session at the summit :)00:31
devanandai think at least 3 different solutions were proposed00:31
jog0if you thought db cleanup was big… archiving is even bigger00:31
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devanandain my eyes, archiving is a part of cleanup ;)00:32
devanandathere's code cruft, and there's data cruft ...00:32
devanandadeleted=1 needs to go00:32
driptonIs there anyone who actually likes soft deletes?00:32
dragondmAnd real constraints would be nice.00:32
driptonSomeone put them in, so someone must like them?00:32
devanandayes!! +++00:32
devanandai believe Paul Carlton was presenting their way of using an EVENT that copies deleted=1 records to a shadow table00:33
driptonand then deletes the rows after they're archived?00:33
devanandaturns out some large companies believe they can't ever throw away records00:34
dragondmAnd there are some places where old data can just be deleted.00:34
sdaguedripton: I think it's part of the eventual consistency strategy. There are plenty of times where things communicate through the database, and if the row just isn't there, it would go weird00:34
dkehnseems like a way to offer auditing, but over time emcumbers the db00:34
dragondmNova is not a historical record.00:34
* dripton nods00:34
dkehnand definately will slow down the db if you don't move them to backup tables00:34
devanandasdague: so that is an interesting point00:35
devanandasdague: do you know what parts of nova actually need to read deleted=1 records?00:35
devanandaas in, what would actually break if things were deleted?00:35
sdaguedevananda: I know at one point there was a reference to flavors that broke because of that00:35
jog0devananda:  I think that was one of our action items from the summit00:36
sdagueI don't know of an active one at the moment, but I'm guessing they are hiding in there00:36
sdagueno-db-compute makes it better00:36
dragondmPerhaps that info should simply be copied to the instance on create?00:36
jog0one is simplue usage report00:36
jog0simple *00:36
driptonSo do we wait until after no-db-compute is done, then try to change soft deletes to real deletes?00:37
sdaguebut there at least needs to be some audit to figure out how busted things would get00:37
devanandadripton: i'm not sure how no-db-compute helps. that is only abstracting the db access away from n-cpu to some middle tier00:37
devanandathe same db access is needed, aiui00:37
jog0sdague: sounds like you volunteered00:37
sdaguejog0: sadly, too many tasks on my plate right now :P00:38
sdagueonce I'm not behind the 8 ball on v3 api, I'll consider :)00:38
devanandaok, seems like no action on that for now, moving on?00:39
jog0git grep "read_deleted='yes'" | wc -l = 2100:40
devanandajog0: look for "true" as well00:40
jog0git grep "read_deleted=\"yes\"" | wc -l = 3300:40
devanandanow you're just making me sad :(00:40
jog0lets move on for now, lets talk shadow table trigger00:41
jog0I think we can punt on some of the read_deleted cases for now00:41
jog0and hit the low hanging fruit first00:41
devanandajog0: you have a good idea what said low-hanging fruit is?00:42
jog0devananda:  sadly no, will have to go through the tables and correlate the read_deleted00:43
devanandajog0: think it would be worth just spec'ing it and letting it sit for someone to pick up?00:44
jog0dripton:  perhaps you can look for those while hunting for unused API calls00:44
driptonMost of the read_deleted are in api.py00:44
driptonI'll take a look while in there.00:45
devanandamoving on00:45
devananda#topic db-common00:46
*** openstack changes topic to "db-common"00:46
devanandai haven't been invovled much in ^ so i'll just open the floor :)00:46
jog0devananda: action item for dripton ^00:46
devanandajog0: ah, thx00:46
devananda#action dripton look for read_deleted low-hanging-fruit while reviewing db/api.py00:46
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devanandaanything on db-common? if not, i'll move on to no-db-compute00:47
devananda#topic no-db-compute00:48
*** openstack changes topic to "no-db-compute"00:48
devanandaagain, open floor00:48
devanandasince i haven't done anything with no-db-compute yet00:48
driptonI know rbryant is working on it, but he's not here.00:49
jog0devananda: can you propse a draft of the shadow table trigger?  for db-archiving?00:49
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devanandajog0: that'll be a pretty big migration, creating N tables and N triggers00:50
jog0how about just for one table00:50
devanandathat i can do :)00:50
jog0just a WIP version to get some feedback on00:50
jog0see if people like it etc.00:50
dkehndevananda, and getting triggers to be compatible across differenets DBs (i.e. psql) careful00:51
driptonI don't currently see any triggers in the migrations directory.00:51
devananda#action devananda make draft review of on-delete trigger for just one table00:51
devanandadkehn: how familiar are you with pgsql? want to help? :)00:51
dragondm(we barely have indexes :( )00:51
devananda#topic db-archiving00:51
*** openstack changes topic to "db-archiving"00:51
devanandadragondm: as of folsom, there should be a _lot_ more indexes00:51
dragondmTrue. We probably need more, ho.00:52
dkehndevananda, I have build migrations tools between the two in the paste , yes I can help, but I wouldn't say I'm and expert00:52
devanandadragondm: about mid-folsom, i reviewed all the queries in db/api and proposed indexes for all of them that were missing00:52
devanandadragondm: so unless a lot of new db access patters were added, we /should/ be pretty good right now00:53
devananda#action dkehn assist making on-delete trigger compatible with pgsql00:53
devananda#topic open discussion00:54
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion"00:54
dragondmdevananda: right, sorry, long day :P00:54
jog0what about a different meeting time?00:54
devanandajog0: what do you have in mind?00:55
jog0how about one hour earlier?00:55
devananda(answering myself) 2hr earlier looks clear on the OS iCal00:55
jog0or 200:55
driptonDoes the nova meeting often run long?00:55
clarkbfor those in the US the time change this weekend will move it an hour00:55
driptonThey are 3 hours before us.00:56
clarkb(US less Arizona and Hawaii)00:56
devanandadripton: they ran a few minutes long today, but that's just one data point.00:56
jog0devananda: usually they run very short00:57
clarkbI think it moves back an hour so you get at least one hour for free00:57
driptonThen 2 hours earlier should be safe.00:57
jog0well all meetings are scheduled on UTC00:57
jog0so  the time between meetings is always absolute00:57
clarkbya so the shift is relative to you not UTC00:57
devananda#action devananda move meeting up two hours, update wiki and iCal, notify -dev list00:57
devanandaok, thanks all01:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"01:01
openstackMeeting ended Fri Nov  2 01:01:47 2012 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)01:01
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