Thursday, 2013-04-25

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eglynnsandywalsh: just looking at your stacktach BPs, confused a little about
eglynnsandywalsh: IIRC compute.instance.exists notifications are emitted with libvirt11:16
eglynnsandywalsh: but what's missing is the ComputeDriver.get_all_bw_counters() implementation for libvirt11:16
eglynnsandywalsh: (or is it a case of the .exists notification missing some additional info in the libvirt case?)11:17
*** openstack` has joined #openstack-meeting17:27 [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff:
davidkranzsdague: THis looks like one of those tricky judgement calls about how bad a bug is and whether it justifies an incompatible change to fix it.17:27
sdagueafazekas: will do17:27
sdagueafazekas: updated17:28
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sdagueany other critical reviews?17:29
sdagueI admit I'm still getting back into the swing of things post summit17:29
davidkranzsdague: Most of the other reviews just need to be approved at this point.17:30
sdagueor any other topics of note?17:30
giulivocan I shout here a question also sent to the ml?17:31
davidkranzsdague: Are you going to put a comment in the nova patch
sdaguedavidkranz: sure17:31
davidkranzsdague: Thanks.17:31
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giulivoafter a blueprint is drafted or a commit pushed for review, is the submitter in charge of searching for an approver/review17:32
sdaguegiulivo: for code, the reviewers check their review queue regularly17:32
sdaguefor blueprints, we should do it here17:33
giulivoso for code no need to worry, correct?17:33
sdaguegiulivo: correct17:33
giulivothanks :)17:34
sdagueif you feel the code isn't getting enough eyes, bring it up at the weekly meeting here17:34
sdaguebut in general that should just happen in the background17:34
giulivono no, it is the opposite17:34
sdagueok, anything else from folks?17:34
sdaguegoing once17:35
sdaguegoing twice17:35
sdagueok, I'm going to say we're done for the day17:35
sdagueeven though meeting bot is broken17:35
sdaguesee you all in #openstack-qa17:36
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bdpayne#startmeeting OpenStack Security Group18:00
openstack`Meeting started Thu Apr 25 18:00:21 2013 UTC.  The chair is bdpayne. Information about MeetBot at
openstack`Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
openstack`The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group'18:00
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bdpaynegood morning / afternoon / evening everyone18:00
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bdpaynehopefully everyone is recovered from the summit18:00
bdpaynecould we start with a role call?18:01
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bdpayneanyone here for the OSSG meeting?18:02
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harlowjai'll chime in :-p18:02
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harlowjathe message queue security stuff is interesting to me right now, maybe ewindisch has some ideas :)18:03
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bdpayneindeed, that's on the agenda for discussion today18:03
harlowjaseems like multiple paths that could be taken18:03
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harlowjabe nice to agree on just 1 :-p18:04
bdpayneok, let's get started18:04
bdpayneif nothing else, I'll have a nice log of myself typing18:04
bdpayne#topic Summit Wrapup18:04
bdpayneThere were a lot of security related discussion at the summit this time around18:04
bdpayneSeems to be growing each time, which is great18:05
harlowja*which is great imho18:05
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harlowjanow just to make some of it reality, thats the hard part, haha18:05
bdpayneThemes I saw included key management / secret management, storage encryption, message queue / rpc security18:05
bdpayneAlso some interesting talks on using hadoop for log analysis18:05
bdpayneAnd, of course, there was the NSA keynote18:06
bdpayneany other topics from the summit worth calling attention to?18:06
harlowjahmmm, i remember one in nova about how to do live migration securely18:06
bdpayneinteresting… that's a tricky problem18:06
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bdpayneok, that's something we can keep an eye out for18:07
ewindischbdpayne: I suggested that rootwrap, for as long as it is used, should probably use linux system capabilities, rather than simply sudo to full root access.18:07
bdpayneahh yes, the root wrap discussion18:08
bdpaynethat's a good one too18:08
harlowjanever ending root wrap discussion :-p18:08
bdpaynelinux capabilities does seem a useful possibility18:08
ewindischor at the very least, have the rootwrap process drop all privileges except execvp, so it can do things like logging, more safely18:08
bdpayneI recall there being some concerns about non-linux systems, but that shouldn't be a show stopper18:08
ewindischwe can put conditionals around the platform18:08
bdpayneso, yeah, lots of things for security people to work on18:08
harlowjavery much so18:09
bdpaynefrom an OSSG perspective, we got 8-ish new members to the group18:09
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bdpaynewould love to get more of the group engaged and think about how we can distribute the work of tracking and helping with all of these features18:09
bdpaynegiven the light attendance today, I'll leave that as an action item18:09
bdpayneironic, perhaps18:10
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harlowjalikely everyone still trying to figure out what to do about havana, haha18:10
bdpayneok, let's move forward18:10
nicolae_is the "secure live migration" issue described anywhere in more detail?18:10
jeblairbdpayne: we had to restart meetbot; you may want to "#startmeeting openstack security group" again18:10
harlowjanicolae_: let me see if i can find anything, sorta remember which session it was in18:10
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bdpayne#startmeeting OpenStack Security Group18:10
openstackMeeting started Thu Apr 25 18:10:57 2013 UTC.  The chair is bdpayne. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:10
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group'18:11
bdpayneI'll need to check the conference sessions to find the live migration stuff18:11
ewindischlive migrations depend on an ssh key18:11
bdpaynemay be an ether pad18:11
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bdpayneI know that I've spoken with Vish about this stuff a bit as well18:12
ewindischeither every compute node has every other machine's public key, or they just share a private key.18:12
bdpaynegood times :-)18:12
harlowjaya, so the general problem is as ewindisch says18:12
nicolae_oh, doesn't sound good :)18:12
bdpayneso let's talk a little about the message security work18:12
bdpayne#topic Message Queue Security18:12
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bdpayneThere's a very active email thread in -dev this morning18:12
bdpaynethis is a proposal from Red Hat18:13
bdpaynethere was also a proposal by erindisch at the summit18:13
bdpaynearg.. that's ewindisch18:13
bdpayneI do agree with the notion that we should probably, as a community, decide on a single good path18:14
bdpayneany thoughts?18:14
harlowja also for the full thread18:14
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harlowjabdpayne i'd like to reach a comprimse of sorts, since i believe there won't be a 1 ideal solution, but that doesn't mean we can't agree on something :-p18:14
bdpayneewindisch what is your take?  I haven't had a chance to read the full thread18:15
ewindischThe shared key solution is much more architecturally heavy, and the RedHat guys seem to gloss over that, imho. Basically, they suggest we take convenience over security, in some cases.18:15
ewindischand if we remove the convenience for more security, we get more architecturally heavy.18:15
ewindischthat isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I feel they're a bit unwilling to admit it, at any rate.18:16
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bdpayneok, fair point18:16
bdpayneI feel like shared keys doesn't scale as well, which is basically what you're saying18:16
bdpayneand cloud is really all about scale18:16
bdpaynepeople are often scared of pki, but it has many benefits18:16
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harlowjaa dev on our side had an interesting idea, about putting the control network in a vpn, securing that vpn, then leaving the rest of the stuff intact (and only opening the public url endpoints), but maybe thats different/not related18:17
bdpaynewell, I would encourage people to chime in on the Red Hat thread18:17
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ewindischharlowja: I honestly think that is a different concern altogether.18:18
bdpaynethat's not a bad idea, but it solves a different set of security problems18:18
bdpayneyeah, that18:18
harlowjaya, it sounded neat, haha18:18
bdpaynealso, ewindisch is your stuff available as a blueprint atm?18:18
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ewindischbdpayne: very roughly. It doesn't have details. It should.18:19
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bdpaynegiven today's email thread, I wonder if it is time to flush it out18:19
ewindischI can take an AI to update the blueprint with a more concrete proposal18:19
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bdpayneand then have a discussion about pros and cons of each18:20
harlowjai'd like that, i trust ewindisch with security more than i trust myself ;)18:20
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bdpayneewindisch I'm happy to help you out, if that's useful18:20
harlowjamaybe nsavin u can help also18:20
bdpaynejust drop me a line18:20
ewindischbdpayne: I'd appreciate it.18:20
bdpayneok, I have one more topic to discuss18:21
bdpayne#topic OpenStack Security Configuration Guide18:21
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bdpayneso this is coming together but there are still some details to finalize18:21
bdpaynekeith would have the latest, but I can give some updates18:22
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bdpaynebasically, we are still looking for June18:22
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bdpaynethe facilitator we wanted has a conflict with the first week in June18:22
bdpayneso we are looking for either a difference facilitator, or a different week18:23
bdpayneso that's in flux a bit18:23
bdpaynelocation appears to be out in Maryland18:23
bdpayneparticipation is at around 10 people or so18:23
bdpayneI'd love to got some more OpenStack specific people18:23
bdpaynewhich is to say we have a lot of security folks with a medium amount of OpenStack experience18:24
bdpayneI'd like to complement that with OpenStack people that have a medium amount of security experience (or more)18:24
bdpaynehopefully we'll have 2-3 more people that can be involved18:24
ewindischbdpayne: are you seeking volunteers, recommendations?18:24
bdpaynecommitment would be a full week out in Maryland sometime in June (likely 1st or 3rd week)18:24
bdpayneseeking volunteers atm18:24
bdpaynesorry, I'm not selling it well enough18:25
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bdpayneanyway, if you're interested, then drop me a line18:25
ewindischbdpayne: I'd have to check on time availability, but I'm interested.18:25
bdpayneand I'll continue with more updates on this for future meetings18:25
bdpayneewindisch sounds good, I think you'd be an assest18:25
ewindischat any rate, I'm fairly local.18:25
bdpayneor asset, as the case may be18:26
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harlowjahmmm, i'll chat with y! people here18:26
bdpaynesounds great, thanks harlowja18:26
harlowjacan maybe volunteer one of them, haha18:26
bdpayne#topic Open Discussion18:26
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bdpayneanything else for today?18:26
bdpayne(we normally just run til 1803018:26
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harlowjalive migration stuff, i can sumarrize what i remember18:26
harlowjai remember stuff like, can we have an intermediary give those keys out for only the duration of live migration (aka a orchestration layer) or can we eliminate the sharing of those keys entirely via some other mechanism (orchestration layer possibly establishing a secure tunnel for the live migration and telling the compute nodes to use said tunnel...)....18:27
Randy_PerrymanNeed to read the list and find your Information on the Security Document18:27
harlowjasome kind of intermediary that connects the hypervisors for the duration of the live migration (And resize operation)18:27
harlowjai think it came up in but nothing documented there18:27
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harlowjai can fire an email to the main dev thread, asking if we should at least document it somewhere18:28
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bdpayneok, thanks for the details there… certainly worth collecting more info18:28
harlowjadef, i know at least at y! we don't want hypervisors talking to each other, so live migration is sorta hard in that case :-p18:29
harlowjabut an intermediary aiding that process might be acceptable18:29
harlowja*hand-holding the hypervisors in a way, haha18:29
bdpayneok, I think that's all for today18:30
bdpaynethanks everyone… nice to see some new faces in here18:30
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"18:30
openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr 25 18:30:18 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:30
openstackMinutes (text):
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harlowjabdpayne: the reason for not wanting connectivity, is what happens if someone breaks out of a hypervisor, giving them those shared ssh keys would be bad :p18:31
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harlowjaits bad enough already due to the MQ itself and such18:31
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harlowjalikely someone could just jump on the MQ and start triggering live migrations right now, haha18:31
harlowja*not so awesome*18:31
bdpayneoh, I completely agree!18:32
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ewindischharlowja: I'm wondering if the host (losing the VM) can generate a short-lived key/token, send that to the host receiving the VM, then have that host use that key/token to pull off some mechanism.18:32
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ewindischyou'd need some transport mechanism that understands this and can be easily manipulated for the short-lived access control mechanism.18:33
ewindisch(SSH is not a good solution here)18:33
ewindisch"lots of MQ messages!"18:34
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harlowjaewindisch: i agree, something like that is needed, some kind of 'session' key or something, that is only valid for a certain amount of time for which live migration can be allowed to 'work'19:34
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dansmithit's meetin' tam!21:01
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russellb#startmeeting nova21:01
openstackMeeting started Thu Apr 25 21:01:24 2013 UTC.  The chair is russellb. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)"21:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova'21:01
russellbwho's here?21:01
* Vek tries to decide...21:01
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russellb#topic havana blueprints21:02
*** openstack changes topic to "havana blueprints (Meeting topic: nova)"21:02
morganfainbergI'm virtually here (at best) :P21:02
russellbI posted that message earlier this week, please take a moment to read it if you haven't21:02
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russellbThe most important thing at this point in the cycle is that we get a roadmap put in place21:02
russellbyou can find the roadmap in progress here:21:03
russellbSo, if there's something you plan to work on, please file a blueprint21:03
russellbor multiple blueprints if it's complex enough to need to be broken up into stages21:03
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harlowjaalot of stuff is still up for discussion isn't it? especially the orchestration/conductor pieces...21:03
russellbto get it on the havana roadmap, you will need to set the assignee, propose it for havana, and select a milestone that you feel is realistic for when you can have it completed21:04
russellbharlowja: yes, lots will be under discussion, we just need to take our best shot at a roadmap21:04
harlowjaok, roadmap seems hard when its still under discussion :-p21:04
harlowjabut ok21:04
russellbthe reason we do all this is to communicate amongst ourselves, as well as to the larger community what it is we're working on21:04
sdagueyeh, the starting point should be all the stuff which has concensus21:04
dansmithrussellb: so for the migration cleanup and the object stuff, I'm happy to go off and file those blueprints now, if that's cool21:04
russellblots of blueprints are filed but not on the roadmap, those are the ones in flux a bit, and that's ok21:04
russellbdansmith: yes please do21:05
dansmithI was waiting until today for some undefined and silly reason, I guess21:05
sdaguewhich I think there is a lot from summit, so best to take russellb's approach and get that all in21:05
mikalI'm on vacation this week, I'll catch up with mine next week21:05
russellbmikal: sounds good21:05
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russellbmy goal is to have a good first cut at this done in about 1.5 weeks from now21:05
russellba couple other comments on the blueprint process ...21:05
cburgess_dansmith: Is the migration one for the general cleanup and unifying all the migration code stuff and cleaning up evactuate etc?21:06
russellbat the end of the release cycle, the blueprint list is effectively our feature list, and what we use to build release notes21:06
russellbas you are reviewing, please be looking for feature patches without a blueprint, and ask for one to be filed21:06
dansmithcburgess_: yeah, and unifying all of that to conductor, as we discussed21:06
harlowjadansmith: please can we finish discussion on that before it suddenly appears21:06
russellbanother review thing ... when reviewing patches that have a blueprint, please make sure it is on the roadmap before approving21:07
dansmithharlowja: appearing as a placeholder can happen before we hash out all the details21:07
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russellbif something needs to be ACKed for the roadmap, you can ask me, or anyone on nova-drivers21:07
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russellband it can either be approved, or they may ask for a discussion to make sure there is concensus on the ML first21:07
harlowjasounds good21:08
russellbok, that's all my notes on blueprint process.  any questions on the process?  also feel free to discuss specific blueprints if you'd like.21:08
russellbwe can also discuss them in open discussion at the end.21:08
boris-42hi all21:08
sdaguermk and vishy were looking various nova-network => mutnauq upgrade things, any idea if either of them are going to put in something for deprecating nova-network?21:08
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russellbsdague: that's a good point, we need something for that.21:09
dansmithlong live nova-network!21:09
russellbsdague: it's unclear what code work is needed ... it's basically "figure out the migration path"21:09
sdagueyeh, true, though I imagine some of that upgrade code will need to be in tree21:10
sdaguebut it's worth not loosing as a thing21:10
russellbi'll add that to  my notes for something to chase down21:10
mikalYeah, its likely they'll need to configure multiple API endpoints for example21:10
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rmksdague: I think that may have been cburgess actually21:10
rmkand hi yes I am here21:10
sdaguermk: ok, it was day 4, so I was a little fuzzy by then :)21:10
russellbone of the problems is that no one person has taken clear ownership over this effort21:10
rmksdague: no worries, I was a zombie too by then21:11
russellba few people volunteered to do some necessary research21:11
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russellbso maybe i'll take it for now, at least to track who is researching what21:11
russellband keep it moving21:11
vishyrussellb: I think you could consider me+garyk as the owners21:11
russellbvishy: ok that would be awesome21:11
russellbvishy: i'll file a nova blueprint and set you as the assignee (since we can have only one)21:12
senhuangvishy: do you have any update on the blue print to coordinate the schedulign of nova and cinder using current rpc mechanism?21:12
russellbvishy: do you want to file a blueprint for it?21:12
russellbvishy: not sure what we'd call it ... perhaps it's just deprecate-nova-network, and it's just whatever we need to complete to feel good about doing that21:12
harlowjasenhuang: i'd like to see that also, or maybe u can create one?21:13
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senhuangharlowja: i have one for unified resource placement module, which is more like a centralized approach that sits on top of nova and cinder21:14
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harlowjasenhuang: so there u go, how can we make that start to appear :-p21:14
russellbok, let's cover a few other topics, then we can come back to specific blueprints at the end21:14
russellb#topic feature patch proposal deadline21:14
*** openstack changes topic to "feature patch proposal deadline (Meeting topic: nova)"21:14
russellbI put out this proposal on the list earlier this week21:14
russellbbasically if we're going to reject patches for coming in too late, i want to communicate that clearly ahead of time21:15
harlowjathat seems to be ok with me21:15
russellbi picked a date out of the air, which was 2 weeks ahead of the official feature freeze21:15
sdagueI think it's a good call21:15
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cburgess_+1 FIrm dates are great we can all work toward that and plan.21:15
russellbok cool.21:15
russellbit would be good to record your support on the ML thread21:15
dansmithrussellb: gee, I think that has enough support21:16
driptonI didn't know Dan got a thousand votes.21:16
harlowjajust might want to be some wording when this happens to not piss people off, haha21:16
russellbif anyone has an objection let me know ... otherwise I'll work on making sure it's communicated effectively21:16
russellbharlowja: well that's why i'm trying to establish it as early as possible, so it's not a surprise ... unless it's your fault for not paying attention21:16
dansmithdripton: as you know, a bunch of +1's don't add up to a +2 :)21:17
harlowjarussellb: agreed21:17
sdaguedripton: it's binary, so it's only 8 votes21:17
russellbdansmith: aw, harsh man, they do to me, depending on who the +1s are from :)21:17
morganfainbergsdague: lol21:17
dansmithsdague: nice21:17
dansmithrussellb: heh, well, I was trying to downplay my obvious over-vote for that, given that everyone else only allocated +1 for it :)21:18
russellbalright, next topic, maybe we can finally disagree on something21:18
russellb#topic baremetal split21:18
*** openstack changes topic to "baremetal split (Meeting topic: nova)"21:18
harlowjadrum roll21:19
harlowjanm, ha21:19
russellbplease review that, ponder it, and make your opinion known if you have one21:19
rmkI don't even know what this is yet but yes21:19
russellbyeah, it was just posted today21:19
russellbso people need time to review it21:19
russellbbut i wanted to make sure awareness was raised.21:19
russellbdevananda: ^21:19
rmkhonestly bare metal doesn't fit well at all in nova21:19
devanandayep, thanks21:19
devanandai believe it's still waiting moderation on the -tc list, too21:19
russellbOpenStack Bare Metal (Ironic)21:19
mikalrussellb: does a split count as a new incubation request for the TC?21:19
russellbi'm a fan of the codename.21:19
russellbmikal: yes, it will be a TC issue to consider21:19
dansmithI've already said this, but I'm +1 on the Ironic proposal21:19
morganfainbergi'd say in the current way baremetal works, it would be good to move it out of nova into it's own project.21:20
russellbmikal: but I'd like to drive more broad consensus before the TC votes on it or anything21:20
devanandamikal: as far as i've been told, this would bypass incubation and follow the same path Cinder took21:20
harlowjame to, it will be interesting to see how it plays out, hopefully good in the end21:20
morganfainbergrussellb: agreed on the code name.21:20
rmkThe name I'm impartial to but +as_many_as_possible to splitting it out21:20
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rmkThe use case is just so vastly different than dealing with VMs21:20
devanandamikal: since the code's already in a core project21:20
russellbbut what we *don't* want is for this to be seen as a fast track method to being an incubated project21:21
rmkaside from being cleaner, it gives the project a much better chance of success since it'll be able to adapt to vastly different bare metal needs21:21
russellbas in, instead of starting off on your own, try to grow in an existing project and split off, because it's easier/quicker21:21
devanandarussellb: indeed21:21
senhuangdevananda: will this bare metal project also support one VM is spawned on the bare metal and possesses all the resources exclusively?21:21
russellbrmk: yeah, agreed, i'm pretty sold on the idea21:21
rmkrussellb: It seems to me this was more a result of discovering that it didn't fit well than anything intentional21:21
russellbrmk: oh sure, not accusing that here, i'm just worried about precedent, and abuse of the pattern elsewhere21:22
devanandasenhuang: i'm not sure i follow your question, but i think the answer is yes, it already does21:22
dansmithrmk: I'm skeptical of that devananda guy and his intentions21:22
rmkdansmith: totally21:22
rmkhe's pretty sketchy21:22
dansmithlong hair and everything21:22
mikalI think it can't hurt to run it quickly through the TC, and perhaps truncate the incubation process21:22
morganfainbergrussellb: as long as it's clear the reason for the split, i think it shouldn't become a pattern.21:22
mikaldansmith: he also bites his dogs!21:22
sdagueyeh, well during the review cycle it was clear it fit oddly21:22
dansmithmikal: *gasp*21:23
rmkit's probably easier to figure out if anyone objects to this21:23
russellbi think i saw him with a trench coat on, too21:23
rmkbecause it seems like we couldn't possibly be in more agreement21:23
russellbwhich can't be good21:23
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devanandasenhuang: take a look at and see if that answers some of your questions. it's a special case for baremetal21:23
senhuangdevananda: okay. cool. thanks!21:23
russellbyep, so everyone here seems happy with it ... please continue comments on list21:23
devanandamikal: only when necessary!21:23
russellbeven +1s on the list are quite helpful to showing consensus21:23
russellbanything else on bare metal?21:24
harlowjadevananda: are the ntt people working with u, might be useful to have there advice, since they are likely using the code that exists and might know more about the migration path?21:24
devanandaharlowja: very little21:24
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russellbwe would have to go through a deprecation path for this21:24
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harlowjadevananda: hmmm, interesting21:24
russellbjust like any other drastic change like this ... a deprecation cycle, migration path21:24
devanandasince they handed the project to us iat the grizzly sumit, they've been pretty quiet21:25
devanandaarata sends in patches and bug fixes often21:25
sdaguedevananda: it would be nice to try to draw them in on the new effort21:25
devanandaand the ISI folks added tilera/pdu support right after FF ended21:25
russellbyep, that landed for havana21:25
devanandasdague: indeed. mikyung was in the session when we talked about this21:25
devanandaand didn't voice any objection21:25
devanandawhich is about as much assent as i have gotten from them :)21:26
harlowjaya, wonder if they can provide more input, since my guess is ntt, isi are using it more than at least y! is21:26
harlowjaso there feedback would seem pretty valueable if u can draw said feedback out of them21:26
devanandai'll try to ping them directly // off list and see21:26
russellbok cool, one more quick topic, then we can go to open discussion21:27
russellb#topic bugs21:27
*** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: nova)"21:27
senhuangwe also have usage for it in some dev/ops. one comment I got from them is that it would be nice to have a common api to provision bare metal and vm..21:27
russellblet's not let all this fun future work let us forget about bugs :)21:27
russellb34 untriaged bugs right now21:27
russellbnot *terrible*, but we should be watching, as we probably have bug reports coming in as people try out grizzly21:27
senhuangrussllb: could you response to my comment on but
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1049249 in nova "Remove plugging of internal classes from configuration" [High,Confirmed]21:28
russellb*everyone* can help with triage, if you're not sure how, see this page:21:28
russellbsenhuang: i guess it's valid as long as that option exists21:29
russellbsenhuang: the compromise/solution has been moving things to entrypoints with short names21:29
senhuangrussellb: okay. i probably need more guide on this bug..21:29
russellbso it'll still be pluggable, technically, but not so obviously directly exposed in the config file21:29
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russellbany other bug comments or questions?21:30
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russellbif we all triage just a couple this week, we'll be in much better shape (that goes for most weeks, really ..)21:30
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boris-42should I report bug for each race condition?21:30
boris-42before adding UC?21:30
harlowjamore races, eck :(21:31
boris-42less races=)21:31
morganfainbergrussellb: the URL link form webnumbr shows only one bug?  am I misunderstanding the function of that link?21:31
russellbmorganfainberg: it showed 34 for me?21:31
harlowjaboris-42: the glass is half-full, good attitude21:31
sdagueboris-42: you've got a blueprint for all the UC stuff though right?21:31
sdagueI'd just use that21:31
russellbagreed, the bp is fine ...21:31
russellbtechnically you can associate bugs to a blueprint21:31
russellbbut ... no need to create extra work unnecessarily21:32
sdagueyeh, but I think the bp is fine, the uc work is a well known quantity21:32
russellbif you *want* to create bugs, it's fine with me, but you don't have to21:32
* russellb nods21:32
morganfainbergrussellb: something off in my web-browser then.  *shrug*21:32
driptonmorganfainberg: it shows 38 for me, but only displays one of them due to windowing.  Says "1 of 38"21:32
morganfainbergdripton: i think it's an extension going dumb on my browser.21:32
harlowjaboris-42: has there been any thought on the races that are at a level above the DB?21:32
harlowjaread/write/modify types21:32
russellbyou can also look at
russellbnot quite the same, but close enough21:33
boris-42russellb what do you prefer adding bugs or not for races?) I just don't now is there any reason for spamming bug tracker?)21:33
russellbjust use the bp21:33
boris-42russellb ok21:34
russellb#topic open discussion21:34
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: nova)"21:34
devanandaharlowja: afaik, no one's really looking at those races above db/api -- except for quotas21:34
harlowjadevananda: durn21:34
devanandaharlowja: if you have some in mind, please open bug reports and tag with 'db'21:34
boris-42harlowja I think that there is also a lot of races=)21:34
harlowjakk, i have a few, do orphaned resources count21:34
harlowjaboris-42: 100% agreed21:34
sdagueyeh, even better is tests21:34
russellbyay tests.21:35
boris-42<3 tests21:35
sdaguethen we can keep them from showing up again21:35
boris-42Btw I have some question about pci devices...21:35
boris-42There is already about 4 BP for that!21:36
boris-42One task but 4 BP =)21:36
russellbyes that area is a bit of a mess21:36
russellba good example of what happens when people don't talk enough21:37
boris-42probably we should chose one of that21:37
boris-42There is also problems with USB21:37
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boris-42if we are using host dev pci passthrough in libvirt21:37
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harlowjasdague agreed on tests, but if u just look at pieces of the nova code, u can spot these things, but maybe its just my mindset21:37
boris-42then we are able to passthrough only USB controllers21:37
senhuangI have a question on the nova's api extension21:37
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harlowjaoh thats a good one, senhuang what happened to the nova extension refactoring effort thingy21:38
sdagueharlowja: then bring tests to the table that demonstrate it21:38
boris-42We should make a little bit different operation for USBs21:38
harlowjasdague: sounds good :)21:38
harlowjachallenge accepted :-p21:38
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senhuangharlowja: i am still researching on how to do api extension for nova21:38
russellbboris-42: i think you're on the right track by going back and documenting your design21:39
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russellbboris-42: then hopefully everyone interested can discuss if it meets their requirements21:39
russellbboris-42: and the people most involved with the libvirt driver can provide feedback as well21:39
russellbboris-42: then we can move forward21:39
harlowjasenhuang: just in general how to do them, or how to make the api extension mechanism easier?21:39
cyeohre: API extension framework I'd appreciate any feedback on - would like to get that moving soon as we can't really do much v3 API work until at least some basic support is in.21:39
harlowjafor the later i thought there was
senhuangharlowja: on general how to do it21:39
harlowjaya, with chris21:39
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morganfainbergcyeoh: i'll look it over today/tomorrow and give you feedback21:40
harlowjasenhuang: i can try to help, its not so clear21:40
boris-42russellb Yes I am working on it, so there should be some changes in my approach to provide PCI passthrough and USB passthrough in one common approach=)21:40
senhuangharlowja: that is pretty cool! thanks21:40
cyeohmorganfainberg: thanks!21:40
harlowjasenhuang: ya cyeoh just pointed that out21:40
russellbboris-42: ok21:40
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senhuangcyeoh: that is awesome. i will look at it21:41
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russellbany other topics for the day?21:42
russellbplease ping me anytime over the next week if you need assistance getting blueprints in shape21:42
senhuangany one have time to take at look at this blue print?21:42
boris-42btw is there some info about no downtime migrations?21:43
russellbboris-42: i wasn't in that session, so not sure what was discussed21:43
devanandaa lot was discussed about versioned db objects21:43
harlowjarussellb: i'd like to hear how conductor can become something like orchestration, or understand at least from a design perspective how, just so i can accomodate it in my wiki and blueprints and such21:44
devanandaIMO, that led to being able to do no-downtime-db-upgrades21:44
russellbsenhuang: yeah, i saw that one ... it seems like there's not clear consensus on how to approach that problem yet.21:44
devanandaor no downtime service upgrades for all services, including db and conductor21:44
devanandaso, are there any BP up for versioned db objects?21:44
senhuangrussellb: maybe we could first provide a well-defined api extension and achieve consensus on the api?21:45
russellbharlowja: I started talking about this on a thread on the ML today.  I feel like we've got some work combining code paths for migrate/live-migrate/resize/evacuate, and part of that will be moving it to conductor.  that's the first step here.21:45
harlowjahow does moving it to conductor work?21:45
russellbsenhuang: has there been a ML thread on this?21:45
dansmithdevananda: well, we're focused on internal objects first,21:45
senhuangrussellb: not yet21:45
dansmithdevananda: then versioning those and isolating schema changes along with that21:45
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harlowjarussellb: i hear lots of moving to conductor but never have seen how it would get there or even if it makes sense there, shouldn't that be part of the discussion?21:45
dansmithdevananda: I think we don't expect to really hit the big versioning parts until post-H, realistically21:45
russellbsenhuang: ok, that's where we need to discuss it basically.  I think having a proposal for what the API would look like would aid that discussion.21:45
senhuangrussellb: i am in discussions with garyk on the api21:45
devanandadansmith: yes. i mean, is that plan written up anywhere?21:46
russellbsenhuang: but it's not clear that there is even agreement that it should be a new separate thing, so we need to work through that.21:46
dansmithdevananda: the internal objects one?21:46
dansmithdevananda: I just filed a blueprint, and we talked about it on IRC a bit, but I need to fill out the blueprint with more details  yet21:46
devanandadansmith: i could see maybe 3 BPs covering internal versioned objects, then rpc forwards/backwards compat, then db stuff21:46
russellbharlowja: it has been discussed a whole bunch, and we had a session dedicated to cleaning up these code paths where we discussed it further.21:46
devanandadansmith: ack21:46
harlowjarussellb: where's the docs on how that will be done?21:47
dansmithdevananda: yeah, I've got three now, actually, almost exactly like that.. still need to make the deps between then and fill out the details21:47
sdaguesenhuang: things like that really need to get to general concensus on the mailing list first21:47
devanandadansmith: great :)21:47
devanandaboris-42: ^21:47
senhuangrussellb: that is true. i think i still need to provide more details21:47
russellbsenhuang: ok, sounds good21:47
senhuangsdague: yep. that is probably a good idea21:47
harlowjarussellb: can u possible re-explain to me how said stuff fits in the conductor21:47
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devanandarussellb: on the conductor-does-evacuate stuff, i'd like Heat considered in that situation too21:48
harlowjadevananda: me too, or at least a common library for this stuff21:48
harlowjawhich nova uses21:48
devanandarussellb: as in, if there's an auto scaling group, how that'll be impacted by conductor doing things automagically21:48
sdaguedevananda: you realize "evacuate" isn't what it sounds like, right? :)21:48
harlowjawe shouldn't keep on reimplementing custom workflows21:48
russellbdevananda: sure.  note that we're *not* talking about doing anything automatically21:48
devanandarussellb: ahh. didn't realize that :)21:48
russellbnothing automagic, all triggered from the outside like it si now21:49
dansmithdevananda: I don't want conductor doing automagic stuff, btw21:49
devanandasdague: i /think/ i know what it does21:49
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russellbthis is just about turning a bunch of separate code paths doing much of the same thing into common code where it makes sense21:49
dansmithdevananda: I want heat doing all the orchestration of failover type stuff from the outside entirely21:49
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russellband also, in the cases of migration and such, we have compute nodes telling each other what to do21:49
devanandadansmith: ++21:49
russellbwe don't want any compute nodes telling any other compute nodes what to do at all21:49
sdaguedevananda: the current "evacuate" action restarts vms that were on a machine that it toast21:49
russellbso the solution is to move most of the processing up a layer21:49
devanandasdague: cool. that's what i thought21:49
harlowjarussellb: so thats great, but thats not explaining how conductor will do it, thats just explaining the general principle right, how does conductor change to be said thing, especially when i am planning something that can do said tasks also, likely something that will use this heat library21:50
russellbharlowja: dude, chill21:50
harlowjatrying, just i don't get it :-p21:50
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russellbharlowja: i think more formal state tracking is good, but we need a place for it to plug in cleanly, and we don't have that yet21:50
senhuangi agree on the general principles :-)21:50
russellbso this code cleanup is step 121:50
harlowjaconfused, isn't making the foundation correct step #1?21:51
russellbhave to look at the steps it will take to get to where you want to go, and i really believe these are the first steps21:51
harlowjathen moving said code cleanup onto said foundation21:51
russellbwe have to do it in logical steps, not an enormous patch set that rewrites everything21:51
russellbi understand what you want, and i think we can get there21:52
harlowjaisn't that possible with a good foundation?21:52
sdagueharlowja: it seemed pretty clear in the room that it was a pretty good incremental cleanup21:52
russellb... in stages21:52
harlowjai still think it can be done in stages, with a good common library first though, not secondary :-p21:52
sdagueI really think it's unrelated to orchestration21:52
harlowjasdague: how so?21:52
sdagueharlowja: hey, nothing prevents you from proposing alternative incremental code21:52
harlowjasdague: and thats where its a waste of time to do21:53
russellbtrue :)21:53
russellbso here's the thing ...21:53
russellbwe have code21:53
russellba whole bunch of it21:53
russellbwe want to do some cleanup, combining, and slight restructuring of that code as an incremental step21:53
sdaguebut I think rehashing consolodating the migration paths isn't very useful, because it's a huge win21:53
sdaguefrom a verification stand point especially, as right now the whole live migrate path isn't testing at all in gate21:54
sdaguewhich is the suck21:54
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sdaguebut at the end of the day, code talks. bring something more clean, and more useful to the table, and it will be evaluated.21:55
dansmitheveryone interested in doing the work for the unified migrations path seems to be in agreement,21:55
dansmithso I don't think we really have a problem here21:55
harlowjasdague: i have code for the foundation of this, haha21:55
russellbwould be good to see it on the list21:56
russellbi don't think i have seen it yet21:56
dansmithharlowja: propose it and we'll handle it in gerrit21:56
harlowjait was shown in the summit :)21:56
sdaguedude, I have piles of code :) that doesn't mean it's more useful for openstack in all situations.21:56
russellbyeah, but lots of people weren't at the summit21:56
russellbi also had a session conflict (rpc stuff, and i'm one of the few maintainers of that code)21:56
harlowjaok, will send that out again21:57
dansmithI have to run21:57
russellbanything else?  just a few minutes left in our time.21:57
russellbk, later dansmith21:57
harlowjajust i'd like to really understand clearly how the future of conductor fits into the plans, even incrementally21:57
russellbi honestly am not sure how to better explain it21:57
harlowjawrite it down?21:58
harlowjadraw pictures?21:58
russellbwe can continue out-of-meeting21:58
russellbthanks everyone!21:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"21:58
openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr 25 21:58:41 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:58
openstackMinutes (text):
sdaguethanks russellb21:58
senhuangthanks, guys21:59
harlowjarussellb: so i'd like to see something like but for say how the conductor would fit in21:59
boris-42thanks, bye21:59
harlowjahow it would work for that run_instance path21:59
harlowjathat would be useful to me, and i think many others21:59
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harlowjaand then maybe some documentation on what that makes better, scale, stabilitiy...?22:00
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russellbharlowja: let's move to #openstack-nova22:01
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