Wednesday, 2013-04-24

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marouniHello, any recommendations for books to help start developing for quantum ?14:49
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jgriffithlooks like a lot of foks are about already16:00
jgriffith#startmeeting cinder16:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Apr 24 16:00:07 2013 UTC.  The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'cinder'16:00
jgriffithHey everyone!  Welcome back16:00
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jgriffiththingee is on a train so may be a few minutes late16:00
bswartzyes I hope everyone had uneventful travel16:00
jgriffithbswartz: indeed16:00
vincent_hou_yesterday i had a good sleep16:01
jgriffithvincent_hou_: hehe16:01
jgriffithjet lag is tough16:01
jgriffithOk...  let's get rolling16:01
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jgriffith#topic blueprints16:01
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jgriffithSo we talked about a lot of things at the summit16:01
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jgriffithWe need to get our thoughts/plans transferred in to blueprint form this week if we can16:02
jgriffiththingee: hey... right on time16:02
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jgriffiththingee: and I said you were going to be late :(16:02
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jgriffithSo I'm going to ask that everybody that had a topic they brought up to do a formal bp16:02
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jgriffithalso, I'd like to do the BP's in chunks16:02
jgriffithin other words if you have a large thing like volume migration16:03
jgriffithbreak it down in to multiple dependent bp's16:03
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dachary( avishay is on vacations for the next two weeks )16:03
jgriffithdachary: I'm painfully aware16:03
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jgriffithanybody know how to turn off his damn auto-reply :)16:03
rushiagrjgriffith: through his out of office replies?16:04
jgriffithrushiagr: yes :)16:04
jgriffithHe's spamming launchpad as well as me :)16:04
bswartzdo any blueprints exist for any of the topics we discussed?16:04
jgriffithbswartz: not really16:04
* dachary write m. factor16:04
jgriffiththat's why I'm mentioning it16:04
jgriffithI'd like to get formal BP's together and start targetting them16:05
jgriffithand I don't want to do them all on my own :)16:05
kmartinbswartz: yes, we have entered a few16:05
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bswartzI think the migration stuff will depend on the volume attach stuff, so migration doesn't feel like a H1 thing -- I'd suggest H216:05
thingeeyes may 30th is due for h1, and we got a lot of work to do16:05
kmartin38 in the current list16:05
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jgriffithkmartin: thanks :)16:06
jgriffithsome of those are going to drop as hold overs from last release16:07
jgriffiththere's a number that I know folks have abandoned16:07
jgriffithanyway....  my point is that if you have an item from the summit that you were going to work on16:07
jgriffithmake sure you update/create a bp and we'll get it targetted etc16:07
jgriffithThe plan this time around is to try and get as much of that work done up front16:08
jgriffithRather than just adding BP's every day as we go16:08
bswartzjgriffith: +116:08
thingeejgriffith: cut off date16:08
jgriffithand it will help with the folks that are coming along and saying "how can I help"16:08
jgriffiththingee: ideally next Tuesday16:08
jgriffiththingee: but that wouldn't be a *freeze* on bp's16:09
jgriffithThat's just when we need to have a reasonable outline for what we're doing in H16:09
kmartinsome of us have to get legal approval before posting the BPs, but we are working on it. :(16:09
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rushiagrjgriffith: H, or H1?16:10
jgriffithkmartin: you can't even post it?16:10
bswartzkmartin: :-(16:10
kmartinjgriffith: nope16:10
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jgriffithkmartin: what if you just let me know what you want to do and I'll post the BP for you16:10
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jgriffithThen when you get approval we can assign it16:10
jgriffithwould that solve the legal issues?16:10
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kmartinok, add QoS support to the 3PAR drivers16:10
jgriffithkmartin: hrmph16:11
jgriffithok, that one might be a little tough for me to wing it in the BP16:11
jgriffithbut at least maybe a place-holder16:11
kmartinjgriffith: let's try it16:11
jgriffithkmartin: sounds good16:11
jgriffithI'm also not as concerned about driver updates/enhancements16:11
* dachary proposes to act as a legal proxy too, if that helps ;-)16:11
jgriffithI'm more interested in project wide changes16:11
jgriffithDoes that make sense to everyone?16:12
jgriffithOr do folks disagree with that?16:12
bswartzAvishay did make a blueprint for his volume-migration topic:
kmartinagree..that's what I thought. We'll added the general one's already we'll ask for forgiveness later16:13
thingeejgriffith: +116:13
jgriffithbswartz: yes, and that's a prime candidate for breaking into dependent chunks IMO16:13
jgriffithkmartin: :)16:13
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jgriffithkmartin: lemme know how to help to keep things above board from the legal teams perspective16:13
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thingeejgriffith: are we committing that beyond h1 it would be unlikely accepting bps that involve project wide changes?16:13
thingeeor h2?16:14
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jgriffiththingee: I don't know for sure yet... I'd be curious what others thought16:14
kmartinif we have feedback on some what's the process, reach out to the assignee or drafter?16:14
jgriffithPersonally H1 would be fantastic16:14
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jgriffithand of course there would be an exception process16:14
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bswartzI think it's reasonable to require a blueprint in H1 for project-wide changes, even if the implementation isn't done until H2 -- I'm thinking of new features that depend on other new features16:14
jgriffithThat wouldn't be "implemented" but at least planned16:14
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jgriffithbswartz: +1  that's kinda the direction I'm leaning16:15
jgriffiththingee: does that sound good to you?16:15
jgriffithkmartin: DuncanT everyone?16:15
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thingeejgriffith: yea16:15
kmartinsounds good we can always push to H216:15
rushiagrjgriffith: yes16:16
jgriffithrushiagr: cool16:16
eharneyseems reasonable16:16
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jgriffithalright, let's plan on that.  Seems like folks are pretty good with the idea16:16
jgriffithSo we're saying:16:16
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jgriffithmajor functional changes/enhancments to the core project are expected to have BP's by H116:17
jgriffithAfter that major changes to the core project will need to have some discussion/exception process16:17
jgriffithThis does NOT mean the changes are implemented and in by H1, just that we have plans for them16:17
jgriffithIdeally the bulk of these will be in later this week, but we're sure to think of "new" things in the coming weeks16:18
jgriffithanything else on BluePrints/plans for H?16:18
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jgriffithOf course I'm speaking in general, not details of some of the items on our plate right now :)16:19
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rushiagrjgriffith: do we cover drivers also in this? e.g. a new vendor trying to get his driver in in H3?16:19
jgriffithrushiagr: so drivers I'm not as worried about having a BP for by next week16:20
jgriffithrushiagr: I would like us to have a seperate discussion on when we cut-off new drivers though16:20
jgriffithrushiagr: and the difference between a *new* driver and a refactored or modified existing driver16:20
DuncanTWe were discussing having no driver interface changes after H2 as well... did that get agreed on in the end?16:20
bswartzI think driver should be allowed to go in any time before H3, as long as it's not the last week of H3 -- then you get beaten with a nerf bat16:20
kmartinon that topic, thingee mentioned that we should document in a dev doc or something that is checked in16:21
rushiagrjgriffith: sounds reasonable16:21
jgriffithbswartz: My concern is that like last time16:21
jgriffithbswartz: the third milestone becomes all drivers all the time16:22
dacharyjgriffith: does it make sense to synchronize wih other components regarding this H1 deadline for project wide BP ? I'm thinking scheduling as an example because it involves at least nova & cinder, even for the case of local volumes. Or would this be handled as exceptions ?16:22
jgriffithdachary: the other projects are going to be shooting for the same time-lines regarding bp's and features16:23
jgriffithdachary: yes, and I've already started bp's for oslo and nova for this16:24
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dacharyok :-)16:24
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jgriffithstill need the cinder version and prototyping some things to see how I really want to do this16:24
jgriffith^^ cinder-version == bp16:24
uvirtbotjgriffith: Error: "^" is not a valid command.16:24
jgriffithwhatevs uvirtbot16:24
rushiagruvirtbot: haha!16:24
uvirtbotrushiagr: Error: "haha!" is not a valid command.16:25
jgriffithguitarzan: any opinions on this ?16:25
jgriffithnot the virtbot discussion :)16:25
guitarzanI was curious what cinder version was referring to16:25
jgriffitha bp for cinder, :)16:25
guitarzanI think getting blueprints in early for big stuff makes a lot of sense16:26
jgriffithalright, we have a plan16:26
hemnalike the state machine :P16:26
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jgriffithhemna: +10000016:26
DuncanTAm I writing a bp for that or is somebody else?16:26
jgriffith#topic open discussion16:27
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:27
hemnaI'd like to talk about that today with you at some point16:27
jgriffithDuncanT: I was going to, we can just see who gets to it first16:27
jgriffithDuncanT: I was just going to have a simle BP like:  "implement a state machine for Cinder"16:27
hemnaI have a BP I wrote as a place holder for the state machine16:27
jgriffithhemna: right on16:27
jgriffithhemna: and yes, we can chat about that today16:27
jgriffithUnless you want to do it now while everybody is here16:28
DuncanTjgriffith: Fair enough. We've a meeting tomorrow to work out what we need to write up and who is going to do it... If you've already started I can always add to it16:28
jgriffithDuncanT: sounds good16:28
jgriffithhemna: ha!16:28
jgriffithhemna: wins!!16:28
guitarzanyeah, I noticed he'd already gotten that one in :)16:28
* jgriffith has yet to go through the bp list :(16:29
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hemnaI spent 10 minutes yesterday googleing for python FSM's yesterday16:29
jgriffithalright... anybody have anything else?16:29
kmartin thingee mentioned at the summit that we should document in a dev doc or something that is checked in instead of the wiki16:29
jgriffithhemna: haha!  There's no shortage16:29
jgriffithkmartin: yes sir!!16:30
hemnawe need to just decide what we want out of it.16:30
jgriffithkmartin: so since I'm very unpopular on this topic :)16:30
vincent_hou_How does cinder manage the event so far?16:30
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hemnakmartin, +116:30
jgriffithkmartin: my thought here was that I would bring it up as a TC disucssion16:30
kmartinok...anyone know where the doc is, I'll update it16:30
kmartinjgriffith: ok check with the TC16:31
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thingeejgriffith: +116:31
thingeekmartin: cinder/doc in the repo16:31
jgriffithYou all know my thoughts :)16:31
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thingeekmartin: I've already started updating the docs with volume_stats...I was mainly concerned with that being consistent :)16:32
jgriffithvincent_hou_: any thoughts on the comments regarding your download image patch?16:32
thingeekmartin: I want eyes once that review is posted to make sure people are fine with that before we start enforcing that. Mainly so I have somewhere to point people in reviews :)16:33
vincent_hou_jgriffith: I would like to add a condition check to make sure the volume is a proper place.16:33
jgriffithvincent_hou_: what do you mean by that?16:33
vincent_hou_For example, it is brand new without any modifications.16:33
jgriffithvincent_hou_: but then I would ask even more... why?16:34
kmartinthingee: great...DuncanT said  he would to pull the drivers out that didn't meet the requirement, but that was a few beers in at one of the parties16:34
jgriffithvincent_hou_: why not just create a new volume?16:34
vincent_hou_It the volume has data on it, it cannot do the download.16:34
jgriffithvincent_hou_: understand16:34
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thingeekmartin: I don't mind being "that guy".16:34
jgriffiththingee: is hereby elected as "that guy"16:34
kmartinthingee: +116:35
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vincent_hou_if a volume is already created, just brand new without doing anything on it. Then it can be a destination where an image is downloaded into.16:35
DuncanTkmartin: I'm still quite happy to do it16:36
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that_guyDuncanT: we'll flip a coin.16:36
guitarzanyou already got the nick16:36
DuncanTvincent_hou_: We don't track whether a volume has stuff on it... once it has been attached, how could we?16:36
DuncanTthat_guy: Swords at dawn16:36
jgriffithvincent_hou_: DuncanT I guess I'm just not sure of the value16:37
DuncanTvincent_hou_: And if it hasn't got anything on it, ignore it and create a new volume16:37
DuncanTjgriffith: I agree16:37
jgriffithvincent_hou_: DuncanT sure, we could look at last attach entry but why?16:37
hemnaIf it's not attached, then I'd assume it's available for whatever.16:37
vincent_hou_OK. i see the point.16:37
jgriffithso this goes back to my rant about being "cloudy"16:37
guitarzannew volume +116:37
jgriffithif that makes sense to anyone16:38
jgriffithThe idea is abstraction and elasticity16:38
hemnayou aren't really supposed to care what's on it, or where it came from (from a user's perspective)16:38
DuncanTjgriffith: I totally agree16:38
jgriffithvincent_hou_: you ok with that?16:38
jgriffithvincent_hou_: If you have a real compelling use case we can take another look16:39
jgriffithvincent_hou_: I'm just not seeing the value/use case for it other than "because we can"16:39
jgriffithOk... cool16:39
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jgriffithvincent_hou_: this is likely to come up again16:39
jgriffithvincent_hou_: so keep the code around :)16:40
jgriffiththat_guy: I'm going to change all of my filters/highlights now16:40
jgriffithkk... anything else from anyone?16:41
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* jgriffith goes back and changes everything again16:41
jgallardFYI, I'm working on multi backend tempest tests :
jgriffithjgallard: yes, I've been following that16:41
thingeejgallard: yes thanks for that :)16:41
jgriffithjgallard: thanks a ton for working on those16:41
jgallardyou'r welcome!16:41
bswartzjgriffith: who own the "brick" project / refactor attach stuff?16:42
jgriffithbswartz: I'm actively working on it16:42
bswartzjgriffith: is there a BP yet?16:42
jgriffithbswartz: that's what we were saying earlier16:42
jgriffithbswartz: I have one up for oslo, need to put one up for cinder and nova16:42
hemnaooh we have brick already?16:43
hemnaship it!16:43
jgriffiththat's subject to look rather different by the end of the day :)16:43
jgriffithI'll get a bp up16:43
jgriffithalright.. I gotta run unfortunately16:43
bswartzsounds good16:43
jgriffithanything else real quick?16:43
jgriffithOk.. I'll be back in about 15 minutes on cinder channel16:44
jgriffiththanks everyone16:44
hemnareal quick?  How about extra spec standardization? :P16:44
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"16:44
openstackMeeting ended Wed Apr 24 16:44:23 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)16:44
openstackMinutes (text):
jgriffithhemna: that's not real quick :)16:44
jgriffithhemna: and yes we should talk about it16:44
bswartzplan a 4 hour meeting16:44
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DuncanThemna: We can continue in #openstack-cinder16:44
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shardy#startmeeting heat20:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Apr 24 20:00:12 2013 UTC.  The chair is shardy. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)"20:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'heat'20:00
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shardy#topic rollcall20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)"20:00
stevebakerhere (technically on holiday)20:00
shardyshardy here :)20:00
zbI'm here20:00
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hanneyme too20:00
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fsargentGood to see you all again!20:01
fsargent(read you all again?)20:01
* mordred lurking20:01
randallburthi there20:02
kebrayMy first meeting… will be observing.20:02
tspatzierHi all20:02
harlowjahowdy, just sent out a big thing about the future of heat, check openstack-dev :-p20:02
harlowjazookeeper ftw, haha20:02
shardycool, good to see you all :)20:02
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shardy#topic Review last week's actions20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Review last week's actions (Meeting topic: heat)"20:02
* shardy looks, I don't think there were any20:03
harlowja*go to summit, behave at summit ?20:03
zanebdefinitely not from *last* week ;)20:03
harlowjai mostly behaved20:03
SpamapSthere was one. "Take a week to recover liver function"20:03
shardyzaneb: haha, yeah last *meeting* ;)20:03
shardylots of actions from last week, which brings us to..20:03
shardy#topic Summit review, action summary20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Summit review, action summary (Meeting topic: heat)"20:04
shardySo I've had a first pass over the BPs, trying to capture the Heat actions from all the discussion last week20:04
harlowja is a big one, maybe more just discussion also20:04
shardyCan everyone please review, and check that I've not missed anything, that details and links are OK etc20:04
shardyharlowja: I raised a BP for that earlier but didn't have the link:20:05
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harlowjagood good20:05
shardyI've not yet targetted that to havana as I'm unsure who will do the work20:06
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harlowjaya, its a big cross-project topic20:06
kebrayshardy:  I will put some resources on task-library20:06
harlowja*with discussion still ongoing20:06
shardyWe have this so far (which already looks like a lot of work):20:06
SpamapSIn starting to look at how rolling updates will be done, it may require a task library too20:06
shardy#action everyone to review havana BPs20:07
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shardykebray: great, lets talk after the meeting20:07
shardyAnyone else got anything summit-action related to mention?20:07
harlowjashardy: also maybe we can talk about how said workflow-library could even be done (especially without affecting the other people working on heat/nova), that last part is the tricky one :-p20:08
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zanebharlowja: that almost needs a separate meeting20:08
shardyharlowja: agree, I think it's a good idea, but there are still too many questions to commit to doing it for havana IMHO20:08
zanebharlowja: but I think more discussion on the ML is required first20:08
shardyzaneb: agree, should we pick that up in #heat and/or the ML?20:09
SpamapSone thing from the summit that bears repeating: Lots of working coming in will mean the heat core team will need help reviewing..20:09
harlowjazaneb shardy agreed, but u have to start with baby-steps, and baby-steps seem possible in havana20:09
SpamapSso, get out there and get reviewing. :)20:09
stevebakerusing zookeeper seems to be polarizing, can someone summarize the argument against using it?20:09
harlowjazaneb shardy i just don't want it to turn into, oh to big for havana, than oh to big for "I" series, then oh to big for "J" series :-p20:10
SpamapSstevebaker: starts with j, ends in ava ..20:10
zanebharlowja: agreed. baby steps. I haven't read your mailing list post yet, but I will look later20:10
harlowjastevebaker: polarizing, i hope not, its a requriement in distributed systems imho, but maybe thats the polarizing aspect, haha20:10
stevebakerSpamapS: lol20:10
harlowjazaneb: thx20:10
shardyharlowja: If someone steps up and presents a clear design/plan and some code, then we can target it to havana, not saying definitely no20:11
zanebzookeeper sounds like a big dependency to be taking on20:11
shardyAnyone want to take an action to formulate a plan in a wiki page?20:11
harlowjashardy: of course, i'd like to have some code in both places, heat and nova starting to do the right thing with 'baby-steps'20:11
zanebI guess that is what makes it polarising20:11
* shardy things harlowja is volunteering ;)20:11
SpamapSThere are alternatives to zk20:11
SpamapSthe *concept* is definitely one that should be investigated.20:12
kebrayshardy harlowja   When does a "clear" plan need to be presented by for Havana?20:12
harlowjashardy: haha, i'm gonna make it happen, i'm just trying to figure out how to get there also ;)20:12
randallburtagreed. zk is a possible solution to distributed state management20:12
zanebSpamapS: excellent. let's hear 'em ;)20:12
SpamapSwritten in go.. MIT license20:13
harlowjai just wonder about the maturity of all of those other ones, pretty much every big distributed system out there is using ZK :-p20:13
SpamapSso its not a slam dunk for OpenStack ;)20:13
shardykebray: I'm not proposing a hard deadline, we can decide when we have a plan and resources to implement20:13
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SpamapSharlowja: and yet, ZK still doesn't have SSL... :-/20:13
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shardy#action someone to create workflow-library wiki page20:13
harlowjai can push for that hard @ yahoo (where ZK came from) if thats what we want20:13
zanebSpamapS: Go? Oh well, nice try ;P20:13
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shardyOk, anything else from summit or can we move on?20:14
shardy#topic Bug triage/milestone assignment20:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Bug triage/milestone assignment (Meeting topic: heat)"20:14
shardyOk, so I'd like everyone to change the bug states from "New" to something else (Triaged/Confirmed) when they assign a bug to themselves or someone else20:15
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shardyAlso please target the bug to the next release, so we can track all the assigned bugs for each milestone20:16
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shardyI can do this, but it will make it much easier (for me ;) if everybody just does it when they change the assignee20:16
shardyit that's cool with everyone that is ;)20:16
SpamapSshardy: should we target bugs we don't actually know we'll fix?20:16
harlowjasandywalsh: all for libraries, but we need to nail down something simple first imho, haha20:16
SpamapSI'd think that we only want bugs we're willing to commit to at least trying to fix20:17
stevebakershardy: do you know about
shardySpamapS: If you're assigned a bug then I'm assuming you will either fix it or close it20:17
shardyThen we'll bump any bugs which aren't fixed before we tag a release (to the next milestone)20:17
SpamapSshardy: some bugs have medium/low priority and get done more when the time is right, not "now or never"20:17
stevebakershardy: launchpad sanity checking script
shardySpamapS: Ok, well that's pefectly fine, just change the status to something other than New20:18
SpamapSRight, Triaged seems appropriate for that :)20:18
SpamapSlike "I have looked, I ack its a bug and is workable by a dev.. but Medium/Low probably means it isn't getting done soon.20:18
shardyI'm just trying to keep some sort of bug pipeline organised without doing pointless-clicking myself all day :)20:19
shardystevebaker: thanks, I'll check it out20:19
shardyOk, anything else on bug workflow?20:20
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shardy#topic Blueprint review for Havana20:20
*** openstack changes topic to "Blueprint review for Havana (Meeting topic: heat)"20:20
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shardySo is everyone happy with BPs they are assigned atm?20:21
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shardyI probably have too many so shout if anyone sees something I've got that they'd like to take ;)20:22
stevebakerit will change over time, no doubt20:22
shardystevebaker: Yep, just want to make sure we're all vaguely happy for now :)20:22
harlowjashardy: i'd keep the workflow-lib open, i think the picture will get clearer soon i hope20:22
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SpamapSwhich one of those is "run n+1 engines" ?20:22
harlowjahoping for baby-steps in hava :)20:22
SpamapSto me that is the only Critical BP we discussed at the summit20:23
stevebakershardy: I've been mulling over trusts, so I may be asking where it is in your queue at some point20:23
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SpamapSas in, Heat is pretty craptastic for any sort of large scale usage without it.20:23
shardySpamapS: I've not targetted that one correctly, thanks20:23
SpamapSshardy: np, just wanted to make sure it wasn't lost (in fact I keep losing it and forgetting the name.. ;)20:24
stevebakerwho wants to be assigned to it for now?20:24
SpamapSseems like asalkeld was most actively pursuing it20:25
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shardyI'll speak to asalkeld and see if he's happy to take it20:26
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shardyIf anyone wants to take any of the remaining unassigned ones, please do, then we can take another look next week20:26
stevebakertoo late, I assigned him ;)20:26
shardyIf anyone spots any other errors please let me know20:26
shardystevebaker: haha :D20:27
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randallburtshardy: sorry for my ignornace but is it just core devs who can sign up, or can us new guys take one20:27
zanebstevebaker: that will teach him not to show up to the meeting ;)20:27
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shardyrandallburt: absolutely anyone can take one20:27
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* shardy would be very very happy to see some non-core devs on that list ;)20:27
randallburtcool. I guess I'll take the dsl one unless there are objections20:27
shardyrandallburt: Ok, thanks20:27
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shardyI guess that one will be a bit of a team-effort, perhaps we'll need to create some child-BPs when we've fully defined what needs to be done20:28
stevebakerrandallburt: an approved blueprint is just a vague indication that you're not wasting your time developing something20:28
randallburtshardy:  agreed20:28
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shardyYep, and the message I have ringing in my ears from summit is people want dsl/hot, so we definitely approve of that BP ;)20:29
randallburtI can ride herd and expect the work to be broken up quite a bit20:29
shardyrandallburt: Ok, cool, well thanks for offering to drive it20:29
kebrayThanks randallburt.20:29
randallburtmy pleasure20:29
SpamapSrandallburt: right, the BP assignee is really just the one who answers the "how is it going" question at the meetings. You can break it up into a bunch of bugs or even sub-blueprints.20:29
zanebshardy: the message I heard was that people want features that cloudformation does not support20:29
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randallburtcool, thanks!20:30
shardyzaneb: Ok, true, that is a more accurate statement20:30
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shardypeople certainly talked about alternate template language a lot too tho ;)20:30
randallburta *lot*20:30
zanebdevelopers talked about that a lot20:31
shardyAnything else on BP's before we move on to open discussion?20:31
shardy#topic Open discussion20:31
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)"20:31
stevebakerI'm on leave next week20:32
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shardySo I'm in the process of getting openstack/heat-templates repo created, ref ML discussion20:32
SpamapSshardy: sweet. :)20:32
stevebakershardy: start by doing it in a personal github repo20:32
stevebakerthen import happens magically when you do the gerrit review to openstack-ci-puppet20:33
SpamapSdo we still want to move to testr?20:33
SpamapSI'm happy to take that on20:34
shardystevebaker: I assumed we just wanted a new empty repo?20:34
SpamapSis there already a bug?20:34
shardysince I guess we don't care about template revision history that much?20:34
stevebakershardy: you could have a crack at an initial structure20:34
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shardystevebaker: Yep, I'm planning to create a tentative dir structure, copy in the CFN templates and heat-jeos TDLs20:35
shardythen other stuff can be added later20:35
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stevebakerSpamapS: I though there was one, maybe there is a project-wide bug we can attach to20:35
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1172468 in heat "Replace nose with testr" [Medium,Triaged]20:36
stevebakerSpamapS: just remove the integration tests, I'll be looking at tempest soon20:37
shardyany other topics or did we all do too much talking last week :)20:37
* SpamapS has been feeling fairly antosocial since Friday20:37
SpamapSanti even20:38
shardyrandallburt: did you have any dsl interpreted versions of the example templates to share, or is that still in-progress?20:38
SpamapSI saw a few20:39
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* shardy must've missed the link20:39
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randallburtstill in progress20:39
shardyrandallburt: ok, cool20:39
kebrayI thought Adrian added some to his articles, no?20:39
randallburtwe have a couple of the simple ones but are still refining20:39
SpamapSone thing I saw that was missing that I want is a separation from describing "an app" and "a vm"20:39
SpamapSbut I think thats just because I don't know how to read them yet :)20:40
randallburtwe should probably get together soon and get everyones input since this will be a bit of a bear20:40
randallburtfinal input that is.20:40
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shardykebray: they were just example snippets, I'm talking about fully converted versions of those in
shardy(not necessarily all of them ;)20:41
randallburtshardy: Andrew and I are working on that this week20:41
kebrayshardy   got it.  Ok, definitely something randall can help ride herd on.20:41
shardyOk, cool, not chasing just wondered if there was anything to look at yet :)20:41
shardyIf there's nothing else we can end the meeting early?20:41
randallburtwe'll ping the list when we get something to show20:41
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SpamapSearly +120:41
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shardyrandallburt: Ok, great, thanks20:42
tspatzierrandallburt: if you want to have some offline discussion on the samples, I'd be happy to discuss20:42
randallburttspatzier: very much. thanks!20:42
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shardyOk, we can follow up re templates etc on ML and #heat, thanks20:42
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"20:42
openstackMeeting ended Wed Apr 24 20:42:49 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)20:42
openstackMinutes (text):
shardythanks all!20:42
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SpamapSshardy: ty!20:43
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jd__#startmeeting ceilometer21:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Apr 24 21:01:39 2013 UTC.  The chair is jd__. Information about MeetBot at
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openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer'21:01
* dhellmann has finally figured out timezones21:01
dhellmannand dst21:02
jd__hehe dhellmann21:02
* n0ano needs a dst tutorial21:02
dragondmo/ howdy!21:02
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dhellmanngoogle's calendar doesn't have a UTC timezone, but apple's ical does21:02
jd__dhellmann: oh it does, I use it21:02
eglynnasalkeld sends apologies ... it's ANZAC Day21:02
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eglynn(a public holiday in Australia
* dhellmann will ask jd__ about that later21:02
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jd__eglynn: was worried you meant prozac day, hopefully I googled :]21:03
eglynnLOL :)21:03
jd__#topic Blueprints creation and assignment for Havana21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints creation and assignment for Havana (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:03
jd__so our dear RM asked us to create blueprint, assign them to people and to havana series21:03
jd__so let's do that this week!21:04
eglynnyep, absolutely ... it's on todo list21:04
eglynn(while the summit is still fresh)21:04
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jd__I think me and sileht are going to split alarming in bp, with help of eglynn and asalkeld I imagine :)21:04
jd__so we'll coordinate as usual21:04
jd__feel free to cover other topics you're interested in and to ping me if you need help, or anything21:05
sandywalshthat's the Epic BP for the sub-bp's ^21:05
sandywalshstill working on it21:05
jd__sandywalsh: awesome21:05
jd__sandywalsh: can you target this yourself to havana or should I?21:06
eglynnare we aiming to have all Havana BPs filed and reviewed by end of week?21:06
eglynn(or by next meeting?)21:06
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jd__eglynn: well next meeting/week would be good21:06
sandywalshjd__, not sure if I can ... lemme check21:06
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llu-laptopah, just want to ask the same question as eglynn's21:07
jd__llu-laptop: same answer then21:07
sandywalshjd__, I targeted the epic to havana-3 ... will try to get the subs done tomorrow21:07
eglynnsandywalsh: you may need to be on the drivers team to do so21:07
eglynnsandywalsh: scratch that!21:07
jd__sandywalsh: perfect, i've set the series to havana too21:07
sandywalshjd__, cool ... thanks21:08
jd__I think you can set the series to havana and then I can approve21:09
* jd__ discovers LP21:09
sandywalshseems to be set already21:09
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jd__sandywalsh: yeah I did it manually for this one :)21:09
jd__and I'll set the priorities when we're done based on some random thoughts and opinions21:10
sandywalshcool ... I'll try to map the dependencies in best order I can21:10
nijabajd__: use coin flips too, please21:10
jd__anything else you want to discuss on bp? we can coordinate later anyway21:10
jd__nijaba: sure :-)21:11
sandywalshI have dependent olso and nova bp's as well, hopefully it all syncs up21:11
jd__#topic Initial alarm implementation21:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Initial alarm implementation (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:11
eglynnit may make sense to split this monolithic patch into smaller more digestible chunks21:12
jd__so the point was to discuss about the few bp and pieces we could start with and on21:12
jd__eglynn: totally21:12
eglynne.g. core alarms API, storage layer, initial v. simple threshold evaluation, metric pre-aggregation21:12
jd__+1 again :)21:12
eglynn... then maybe add history API, split transports, metric caching etc.21:12
jd__eglynn or sileht, is there a particular area you prefer to tackle?21:13
llu-laptopeglynn: what's "initial v."?21:13
jd__I can coordinate the blueprints as a whole, but pick what you want to do :)21:13
eglynnv. simple = very simple21:13
eglynnyep, I'm pretty open21:13
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eglynnI wouldn't mind working on anything I spoke about at summit ... say the threshold evulation piece initially21:14
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jd__fine with me, sileht, opinion?21:14
silehtme too21:14
jd__ok whatever you do, just synchronise :)21:15
jd__I'll build some blueprints tomorrow unless someone wants to take over21:15
jd__based on what eglynn described21:15
jd__and you'll affinate if you want!21:15
jd__like cheese.21:15
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eglynnjd__: cool, I'm up for helping with BP definition also21:16
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jd__eglynn: thank you :)21:16
jd__eglynn: I'll ping you tomorrow then!21:16
eglynnjd__: great!21:16
jd__anything else?21:17
eglynnsileht: in terms of splitting up the patch, git rebase -i / add -i are your friends ;)21:17
silehtyep :)21:18
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nealphjd_: do we have a master list of bp's needing to be generated, or are we going from memory?21:18
nealphor perhaps from the summit proposal list?21:18
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eglynnthat's a good starting point, plus the etherpads21:19
jd__nealph: yeah I think etherpad is a good starting point21:19
sandywalshnealph, I went from the summit talks and worked backwards21:19
sandywalsh(and the etherpads, yes)21:19
nealphsandywalsh:thanks, will look at doing the same.21:20
jd__thanks guys21:20
jd__#topic Open discussion21:20
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:20
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n0anodare I ask what's happening with the Healthnmon integration/co-existence?21:21
DanD_question for sandywalsh in your presentation you talked about a data model to support the events you want to add. is that available somewhere?21:21
sandywalshDanD_, the one I've been working from is on the etherpad21:21
jd__n0ano: they're supposed to come to us with some piece of code we'd use21:21
eglynnn0ano: primarly to give ceilo hypervisor breath & reach21:22
jd__n0ano: first would be the virt pollster support for Xen and others21:22
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sandywalsh(and the github repo link is in there too)21:22
DanD_ok thanks21:22
sandywalshDanD_, it's likely to change21:22
sandywalshbut not terribly21:22
DanD_i figured that we would like some input on it too :)21:22
n0anoso that means we're effectively going straight to the coding phase & bypassing the architectural phase21:23
sandywalshDanD_, absolutely21:23
sandywalshn0ano, the what? ;)21:23
eglynnn0ano: we spoke at lenght with them at summit about bridging the architectural mismatches21:23
sandywalshwe definitely need to figure out the settling time problem and the multi-queue-per-data-type changes21:23
n0anoI'm still unclear how the two integrate, are they separate services, do they get merged into one.21:23
dhellmannn0ano: the idea is for the healthnmon team to bring their hypervisor monitoring agent into ceilometer to replace our existing agent21:24
dhellmannit will need to change to emit data in the right format using the pipeline publisher, etc.21:24
sandywalshdhellmann, I thought the agent was going away in favor of the nova notification approach?21:24
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jd__yeah kudos for eglynn for clearing things with healthnmon :)21:25
eglynnn0ano: IIRC the aggreement was that the peice of healthnmon that makes more sense to ceilo will move the ceilo, but the inventory manager peice stays separate21:25
dhellmannsandywalsh: that was not my understanding based on the meeting I was in, but maybe I missed a conversation21:25
sandywalsheglynn, might want to re-confirm that21:26
jd__sandywalsh: that was my understanding at some point, but that requires anyway someone to do that into Nova21:26
sandywalshdhellmann, jd__ we can help with that certainly ... an agentless approach will keep operations happy21:26
n0anothis is why I prefer the mailing list, things are more concrete when typed out21:26
dragondmsandywalsh: helthnmon's agents monitor multiple hypervisors. It's more sensible, since the code exists, and they can monitor things outside of Nova's sphere (i.e. host stats)21:26
dhellmannif nova starts emitting enough data frequently enough, we don't need the healthnmon agent, so there's nothing to integrate, right?21:26
llu-laptopsandywalsh: by saying agent, do you mean compute agent or central agent?21:26
eglynnmy understanding is that initially their hypervisor drivers will be used to extend our virt inspector model to be non-libvirt-specific21:26
eglynn(we wrap in our compute agent as opposed to taking their agent)21:27
eglynneventually tho' the compute agent goes away in fvour of native nova notifications21:27
dhellmannWe have, I think, had this conversation several times. Perhaps what we need is a blueprint with a specific proposal?21:27
DanD_I would be happy if the nova events and the seperate agent could cooexist initially but you could turn one or the other off21:27
llu-laptopeglynn: that's my understanding too.21:27
n0anodhellmann, +121:28
dragondmalso their proxies/agents/whatever monitor n to 1 hypervisors. They don't need to be installed on the computes.21:28
sandywalshdhellmann, what's "frequently enough"?21:28
eglynnok let's try to codify what we all took from the conversation with healthnmon into a BP21:28
dhellmannsandywalsh: that's up to the deployer21:28
eglynnI'll get the ball rolling tomorrow21:28
sandywalshdragondm, good point, forgot about that part21:28
dhellmanndragondm: right, that was the other key feature (in addition to having more drivers than we do now)21:29
sandywalshdhellmann, I think we need to have limits on what's possible there. The could result in a *lot* of messages21:29
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sandywalshdhellmann, can't just say "it's up to you"21:29
dhellmannsandywalsh: they wouldn't all go to the message bus, it would depend on how the pipeline is configured21:30
sandywalshdhellmann, true, but still21:30
sandywalshanyway, certainly room for more discussion21:30
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dragondmI'll want to look at how the healthnmon pollers send their data. Given the n-1 polling, they could condense alot into a smaller # of messages.21:32
dhellmannit will need to be updated to use the pipeline publisher in ceilometer, and that does support batching21:32
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eglynncool, do we have specific actions on this topic?21:33
eglynne.g. #action eglynn get BP(s) on healthnmon proposed as a condensation point for discussion & agreement21:33
dhellmannyes, I think it would be really helpful to have the proposals for changing hypervisor "polling" written down so we have something concrete and everyone can understand what will be changed, why, and potentially when21:35
dhellmannI think we have 2 proposals, for nova notification changes and for healthnmon's agent21:35
dhellmannthose should be considered separately21:35
eglynndhellmann: +121:35
silehtI must go, see you21:36
eglynnare BPs the best way to do this?21:36
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eglynnor wiki/ML/etherpad?21:36
eglynnsileht: bye!21:36
sandywalshdhellmann, +121:36
dhellmannI think a combination of BP, wiki, and then ML for discussion makes sense21:36
nijabagoodnight sileht21:36
dhellmannwe need the BP for tracking, we need the wiki for details, and we need the ML for hashing it out to make sure we all understand and all details are covered21:37
eglynnso, all of the above ;)21:37
dhellmannwell, no etherpad, but we have some notes there now so I guess yeah :-)21:38
sandywalshours is essentially done, which consists of adding the xen hypervisor driver support to libvirt21:38
sandywalshand then the .exists records will be correct21:38
eglynnso is the goal just xenapi & libvirt? (healthnmon have coverage on ESX, hyper-V etc.)21:39
jd__I'd tend to answer the goal is nova… :)21:39
eglynnnot that I'm shouting for ESX, hyper-V support or anything ;)21:39
dhellmannwe want to cover all of them if we can, right?21:40
sandywalshthe mechanism is already in the virt layer, if the hypervisor maintainers support or not is a different question.21:40
eglynnthat's fair enough21:41
sandywalshone option would be for HP to put their last mile code in a library and the virt drivers could just access it ... dunno21:41
eglynnthe healthnmon guys would argue that they've got the existing hypervisor breath right now21:41
dhellmannshould we open bugs against the hypervisor drivers that don't provide the data, in nova?21:41
eglynnmakes sense21:41
sandywalsh(to both points :)21:41
sandywalshif they want CM support, it would need to be in there21:42
dhellmannI wonder if they don't know we want it, though?21:42
sandywalshI'm sure they don't21:42
dhellmannit sounds like we need a volunteer to open some bugs.21:43
* dhellmann not it21:43
sandywalsh#action, sandywalsh will open bugs for virt layers support with other hypervisor maintainers21:44
dhellmannthanks, sandywalsh :-)21:44
eglynnso the bugs would be for parity with xenapi on the bw counters / get_diagnostics APIs?21:44
eglynncool, understood21:44
dhellmanneven if we do still use an agent (ours, healthnmon, whatever), it would be good for those notification messages to be consistent21:44
eglynnyep, absolutely21:45
dragondmalso yup.21:45
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jd__cool :)21:45
jd__ending the meeting in a minute unless someone has anything else21:47
eglynnnowt from me ...21:47
dhellmannthat's all I have21:48
sandywalshthat's enough :)21:48
jd__thanks guys!21:48
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"21:48
openstackMeeting ended Wed Apr 24 21:48:19 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:48
openstackMinutes (text):
nijabathanks jd__21:48
sandywalshthanks! later y'all21:48
eglynnlaters ...21:48
nijabal8r *21:48
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