Tuesday, 2013-04-30

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primeministerpluis_fdez: hey luis_fdez14:35
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rerngvitI'm here for scheduler meeting14:58
garykme too14:58
primeministerprerngvit: hyper-v meeting14:59
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primeministerpis in channel14:59
primeministerper channel14:59
primeministerpin a minute14:59
garykrerngvit: is the scheduler meeting on this channel?14:59
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rerngvitgaryk: from https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings#Scheduler_Sub-group_meeting, it seems so15:00
n0ano#startmeeting scheduler15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Apr 30 15:00:20 2013 UTC.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scheduler'15:00
rerngvitI might be wrong15:00
primeministerpgaryk: there is another channel15:00
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primeministerpfor meeting15:00
n0anoIndeed, the scheduler starts now on this channel15:00
n0anoShow of hands, who all is here15:00
primeministerpn0ano: so does the hyper-v15:01
primeministerpwhich has for some time15:01
HenryGHyper-V is at 1600 UTC (one hour from now) according to the wiki15:01
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n0anowhat HenryG said, I checked the iCal and the wiki and didn't see a conflict15:01
garykbest effort scheduling. heh15:01
primeministerpwe're going to be quick today15:02
primeministerpif you want to wait15:02
primeministerp#startmeeting hyper-v15:02
openstackprimeministerp: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.15:02
n0anoNP, let me end the scheduler, as long as you're quick15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"15:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Apr 30 15:02:41 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-04-30-15.00.html15:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-04-30-15.00.txt15:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-04-30-15.00.log.html15:02
* n0ano always issues when starting something new :-)15:02
primeministerplooks like i'm off15:03
primeministerplooks like i'm off15:03
primeministerpsorry guys15:03
n0anoprimeministerp, so, do you want the channel for a few minutes or can we take it back?15:04
rnirmalprimeministerp: in 1 hr :)15:04
primeministerpyou can take it back15:04
n0anoprimeministerp, tnx15:04
n0ano#startmeeting scheduler15:04
openstackMeeting started Tue Apr 30 15:04:27 2013 UTC.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:04
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:04
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:04
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scheduler'15:04
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n0anoonce more with feeling, show of hands for the scheduler meeting15:04
rerngviti am here15:04
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garyki am here for the scheduling15:05
rnirmalI'm new.. wasn't there at the summit but interested in a few topics of scheduler discussions15:05
n0anornirmal, no problem, all are welcome15:05
rerngvitthe same here, I  am also new.15:06
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winston-dn0ano: this is zhiteng15:06
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n0anowinston-d, hi15:06
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winston-dn0ano: hi Don15:06
senhuanHi guys15:06
garyksenhuan: hi15:07
n0ano#topic administrivia15:07
*** openstack changes topic to "administrivia (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:07
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senhuanGaryk: hi15:07
gliksonsenhuan: hi15:07
n0anoJust a little administrivia to start, this is currently scheduled for a weekly meeting, I think we've got enough topics for that now15:07
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n0anoAs things go on, with any luck, we can go to a less frequent schedule15:08
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HenryGI'm just going to lurk, but I am interested in learning how we might some day take into account "available network bandwidth" when scheduling.15:08
glikson..or more frequent :-)15:08
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n0anoI've created an agenda based upon the issues from the Havanna summit, feel free to make more suggestions on other items15:08
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n0anoglikson, good thing you had a smiley on that :-)15:09
garykHenryG: hopefully if and when we get quantum to provide the network proximity we can have the scheduler consume that...15:09
gliksonn0ano: can you remind where the agenda is?15:09
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n0anoglikson, I sent out an email to the dev mailing list, I'll try and get better and add it to the wiki page15:09
garykn0ano: ^15:10
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SenhuaGaryk: i have an even wilder idea. Scheduler should be able to use information provided by other parties15:10
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n0anogaryk, there is the issue of where to get the network data, quantum or ceilometer so this becomes a much wider issue15:10
rerngvit1)  Extending data in host state15:10
rerngvit2)  Utilization based scheduling15:10
rerngvit3)  Whole host allocation capability15:10
n0anoSenhua, +115:10
rerngvit4)  Coexistence of different schedulers15:10
rerngvit5)  Rack aware scheduling15:10
rerngvit6)  List scheduler hints via API15:10
rerngvit7)  Host directory service15:10
rerngvit8)  The future of the scheduler15:10
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gliksonok, the wiki is empty. np.15:11
n0anoglikson, startup issues, I intend to expand it15:11
garykrerngvit: n0ano: ensembles/vclusters is missing from the list15:11
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n0anowe're not going to get to everything today so adding that on is fine15:12
n0anoin fact, why don't we discuss future agenda items a bit15:12
n0ano#topic agenda items15:12
*** openstack changes topic to "agenda items (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:12
n0anoSo far we need to add:15:12
gliksonare we going through the items in any particular order? e.g., those for which we already have blueprints, or vice versa?15:12
n0ano1) network bandwidth aware scheduling (and wider aspects)15:13
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n0ano2) ensembles/vclusters15:13
n0anoglikson, after we come up with issues I'd like to start in the current order15:13
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n0anoe.g. the issues from the summit (most of which had bps) and then new items.15:14
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n0anoOK, I'm hearing silence on new items (sending email to the dev list is always welcome if we think of things later) so to begin15:15
n0ano#topic extending data in host state15:15
*** openstack changes topic to "extending data in host state (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:15
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n0anoI have a BP to address this but there seems to be another almost identical one outstanding so I have to coordinate between the two proposals15:15
n0anoI didn't hear any objections to the idea at the summit, is that the consensus on this call, this is a good idea?15:16
gliksonmaybe you can post here the URLs, for reference?15:16
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rerngvitone main question is should the data be moved to Ceilometer.15:16
n0anoThey're in the etherpad from the summit, I can scrounge them up15:17
rerngvitURLs please15:17
n0anorerngvit, not sure, I'm not sure I want to make the scheduler totally dependent upon ceilometer, I'd rather have ceilometer as an enhancement15:17
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gliksonseems that there is an agreement that it is a generally useful capability -- the question is whether there is a concrete enough proposal on what can/should be done in Havana?15:18
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n0anourl for the etherpad - https://etherpad.openstack.org/HavanaSchedulerFeatures15:18
dacharyn0ano: +1 ceilometer is a great source of measure for the scheduler but there is no reason why it should be mandatory15:18
SenhuangI agree that we should keep the data in nova for mow.15:19
jgallarddachary, +115:19
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n0anoglikson, I know I'm talking about supporting plugins that entend the periodic data that is sent to the scheduler, pretty concrete and easy enough to do I believe.15:20
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winston-ddachary: +115:20
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rerngvitnOano: do you mean the ResourceTracker or other component?15:21
n0anorerngvit, yes, I'm talking about the resource tracker15:21
gliksonn0ano: how would you maintain it in host manager? key-value pairs? is it complementary to 'stats'?15:21
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n0anoglikson, yes, basically have a resource dictionary with a set of key/value pairs15:23
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n0anoplugins could add new key/value pairs and appropriate scheduler filters could utilize those values15:23
rerngvitbut the 'stats' is already a dictionary15:23
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rerngvithow it differs?15:24
n0anoI think I wanted to leave stats for compatibility purposes and make the new stuff new but I'm open to suggested changes15:24
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n0anotell you what, let me coordinate with the other effort and then we can discuss the nitty gritty details at next weeks meeting15:25
n0anoI can also send out reference material so we all know what we're talking about15:25
rerngvithmm, I think that's a good idea15:25
garykn0ano: agreed. we need to go ovber the high level details and then see how to address each15:25
gliksonok, sounds good15:25
n0ano#action n0ano to bring a more detailed proposal to next weeks meeting15:26
n0anotnx everyone, this is very helpful so far15:26
n0ano#topic utilization based scheduling15:26
*** openstack changes topic to "utilization based scheduling (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:26
rerngvitok, I can help a bit then.15:26
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gliksonI guess this one is highly related in terms of metrics collection.. using stats.15:27
rerngvitfor this, as I was working on the blueprint15:27
rerngvityes, exactly15:27
n0anoindeed, turns out my BP is in this section when it should be more properly in the prior one15:27
rerngvitwe were submitting a patch (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/18462/) but was rejected in the end15:28
rerngvitthe reason was that it was not clear how this should be implemented.15:28
rerngvitthe way the patch work is separated into two parts.15:28
rerngvitThe first part collecting utilization, which is extending the 'stats' dictionary in the resource tracker.15:29
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gliksonit might make sense to enable different frquencies of sending updates to the scheduler, or even entirely different mechanisms for static vs dynamic metrics..15:29
rerngvitWhile the second part, in two new filters utilizing those utilization15:29
gliksonmaybe 'stats' could be the way for more dynamic metrics..15:30
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n0anoI think this is pretty much what I wanted to do with plugins (while not addressing the frequency of update issue)15:30
garyki am not sure of the details but are average, peak and current utilization reported?15:32
n0anogaryk, reported by whom?15:32
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gliksonanother potential enhancement could be to do some level of aggregation before sending to the scheduler.. anyway, at some point it does make sense to use a more generic metrics collection mechanism, I guess.15:33
rerngvitit keep multiple samples, says previous 10 collects.15:33
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gliksonbut it seems reasonable to have some that within Nova15:33
garykn0ano: the hosts will need to notify the scheduler. or is this via ceilometer?15:33
rerngvitso that derived statistics like average and peak, can be computed afterward15:33
gliksonmaybe it might make sense to introduce a metrics collection API within Nova, and have one implementation using PRC within Nova, and another one using Ceilometer.15:34
n0anorerngvit, who does the computing afterward, the compute node or the scheduler15:34
n0anoglikson, we already have communication from compute node to scheduler, isn't that sufficient (no new API needed)15:35
rerngvitnOano: I'm 80% sure on this but should be the compute node15:35
n0anon0ano, I agree, better to spread the work out among all the compute nodes.15:36
gliksonn0ano: the thing is that it doesn't have to be via direct RPC between nova-compute and the scheduler..15:36
n0anoglikson, not sure how that would work15:37
gliksonit could be an abstract API, sith RPC backend and Ceilometer backend15:37
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garyki think that ceilometer has agents that already do something like this.15:37
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n0anoglikson, note that I don't think we want the scheduler calling the nodes, we want the compute nodes sending to the scheduler15:38
gliksonwe can decide what semantics to define.. maybe pub-sub.15:38
rerngvitI think Pub-sub is a good idea.15:39
rerngvitBut, as glikson mention, probably, Ceilometer might have something already like this.15:39
n0anoI'm not necessarily adverse, just need a lot more detail15:39
gliksonanyway, I am just saying that it seems pretty clear that more than one implementation might make sense, and we can start by defining an abstract API, with a simple implementation (basically refactoring the existing one), and few incremental enhancements.15:40
n0anoglikson, +1 (as long as we keep any refactoring with a mind to the ultimate goal)15:41
rerngvitglikson +115:41
gliksonwe took similar approach with service heartbeat (service group APIs), and it worked well (I think).15:42
n0anowinding down on this topic a bit, rerngvit do you want to take to lead to move this forward?15:42
* russellb thought this meeting was 1500 UTC?15:42
n0anorussellb, according to my clock it is now 15:43 UTC15:43
rerngvitHowever, I simply don't know how. This is my first Opensource project involvement.15:43
russellboh, i just suck at times zones15:43
n0anorussellb, welcome to the club15:43
n0anos/club/club :-)15:43
russellbalso means i have a conflict every week15:44
rerngvithello, russlelib15:44
n0anorerngvit, not problem, we don't bite15:44
russellbso i'd like someone to attend the nova meeting on thursdays each week to provide a roll-up summary on what this group is up to15:44
n0anorussellb, sorry, this was the best compromise I could come up with15:44
russellbno problem, i know not everyone can make it no matter what you pick!15:44
russellbjust letting you know i'm not ignoring15:44
n0anorussellb, depends, what time is the nova meeting15:45
russellb2100 UTC15:45
garyki am unable to make that time15:45
rerngvitsorry, it's 10pm in my timezone, not very convenient15:45
n0anothat's should be 3PM MDT, I can commit to doing that15:45
gliksonthis would be 2400 UTC in my timezone.. not perfect15:45
gliksonsorry, just 240015:46
n0ano#action n0ano to attend nova meeting to provide rollup of this meeting15:46
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winston-dcome on, folks, i've got used to 2300/2400 meetings for a year. :)15:46
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n0ano#action rerngvit to address utilization based scheduling at the next meeting15:47
rerngvitok, then we should try to define the abstract API then.15:47
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rerngvitoki, do ki15:47
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n0anomoving right along, I think we have time for one last agenda item today15:47
n0ano#topic whole host allocation capability15:47
*** openstack changes topic to "whole host allocation capability (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:47
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n0anoanyone online who can talk to this (not my area)15:48
winston-dis phil here?15:48
garykn0ano: regarding the ensembles/vclusters. Senhua Huang, glikson and I will try and propose an API next week (sorry I am just butting in015:49
gliksonrussellb: FYI, last thing we discussed was to try defining a new internal API to handle metrics (e.g., pub-sub), and have rpc-backed implementation (similar to what is there today), and potentially maybe also Ceilometer-backed one.15:49
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n0anogaryk, np, getting prepared is good.15:49
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gliksonn0ano: maybe we should defer phil's topic(s) till next meeting15:50
n0anohearing silence on this topic, I'll keep it for next week15:50
n0anonote that I don't want things to get out of hand, I'll probably drop agenda items if there's no discussion in 2 consecutive meetings15:51
gliksonshould we move to #4 then?15:51
n0anomoving on15:51
n0ano#topic coexistence of different schedulers15:51
*** openstack changes topic to "coexistence of different schedulers (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:51
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gliksonI've jsut created a new bluprint on this: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/multiple-scheduler-drivers15:52
n0anoglikson, do you want to provide an overview or should we do our homework, review your BP and talk about it next week?15:52
gliksonessentially the idea is to allow overriding the defition of scheduler driver for specific host aggregates15:53
rerngvitI can't access the specification.15:53
n0anorerngvit, the link works fine for me15:54
gliksonrerngvit: strange..15:54
rerngvit(Sorry, you don't have permission to access this page or the information in this page is not shared with you.) :(15:54
rerngvitit's ok. I can try to solve the issue later15:55
johnthetubaguy(so previous whole host scheduler thing, I am interested, just have meeting clashes at the moment, sorry)15:55
n0anomy mistake, the BP is fine, the specification is restricted as rerngvit says15:55
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garykthe link on the BP is problematic15:55
n0anojohnthetubaguy, will you be able to talk about this issue next week at this time?15:55
gliksonyou mean, the URL within the bp? it doesn't point anywhere at the moment.15:55
russellbfor blueprints, make sure you follow the instructions i put in a message last week to get them into the havana roadmap15:56
johnthetubaguyn0ano: I can try15:56
n0anojohnthetubaguy, that's all we can ask, tnx15:57
rerngvitrusslelib, could you please provide a link to the message?15:57
n0anoall - aproaching the hour, let's end things here and continue on next week15:57
n0anoI want to thank everyone, talk to you again in a week (if not via email before then)15:58
garykn0ano: thanks!15:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"15:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Apr 30 15:58:33 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-04-30-15.04.html15:58
garyksenhua: ping15:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-04-30-15.04.txt15:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-04-30-15.04.log.html15:58
rnirmaln0ano: btw update this page.. you can update it as needed for the next meeting https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Scheduler15:58
senhuagaryk: i was in a different room.15:59
n0anornirmal, that's my goal, I'll try and do that.15:59
rerngvitnoano thanks15:59
senhuagaryk: i will check the transcript15:59
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garyksenhua: ok. would it be possible that we continue with where we left off tomorrow?15:59
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senhuagaryk: yes16:00
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garyksenhua: great. alex would also like to take part. i'll mail you a bit later.16:00
senhuagaryk: the same time might be a little bit difficult for me.16:00
gliksonanyway, one of the basic questions I had was whether it could be a reasonable approach to update scheduler manager, so that instead of just reading 'driver' from CONF, it would call a method that would choose the driver dynamically.16:00
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winston-dglikson: did you get a chance to take a look at previous 'multi-scheduler'?16:01
senhuaglikson:  i like the approach of having the method call the driver/filters dynamically.16:01
gliksonwinston-d: yes. it is somewhat similar, but different :-)16:02
rnirmalsenhua: glikson we did something similar in cinder with the multi-backend16:02
primeministerp#startmeeting hyper-v16:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Apr 30 16:02:57 2013 UTC.  The chair is primeministerp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v'16:03
primeministerphi all sorry for the delay16:03
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primeministerpbit of a confusion today16:03
senhuarnirmal: that is interesting. i will have a look at the codes16:03
primeministerpthis is going to be a quick meeting16:03
primeministerpI sent out a short agenda16:03
primeministerp#topic havana update16:03
*** openstack changes topic to "havana update (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:03
primeministerppost havana summit we're are finalizing our plans for the development work16:04
alexpilottiHi guys!16:04
primeministerpalexpilotti: howdy16:04
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primeministerpalexpilotti: anything to add16:05
alexpilottiI'm typing on the phone16:05
primeministerpalexpilotti: most had to leave due to the timing mixup16:05
alexpilottiLooks good16:05
primeministerpfair enough16:05
alexpilottiDarn daylight saving :-)16:05
primeministerpwe'll resume next week w/ final area we'll be concentrating on16:06
primeministerpbut the key ones were discussed during the summit session16:06
primeministerp#topic puppet bits16:07
*** openstack changes topic to "puppet bits (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:07
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primeministerpso additionally i've started coordinating w/ luis from CERN regarding the puppet work16:07
primeministerpand collaboration16:07
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primeministerpwe'll be resuming that discussion later in the week16:07
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primeministerpwe'll resume normally next week.16:08
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"16:08
openstackMeeting ended Tue Apr 30 16:08:30 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:08
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-04-30-16.02.html16:08
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-04-30-16.02.txt16:08
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-04-30-16.02.log.html16:08
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johnthetubaguyfor those looking for the XenAPI meeting, we need to find a time that doesn't clash16:22
johnthetubaguyprobably go back to the old time16:22
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rnirmaljohnthetubaguy: I don't think there was a clash... just daylight savings16:23
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johnthetubaguywe are both listed as Tuesday at 16UTC at the moment, we tried to move due to day light savings too16:30
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stevemarhello keystone folks18:00
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dolphmayoung: topol: bknudson: o/18:01
dolphmhenrynash is out18:01
dolphmtermie: o/18:01
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dolphm#startmeeting keystone18:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Apr 30 18:01:56 2013 UTC.  The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:02
dolphm#topic New core reviewers18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "New core reviewers (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
dolphmyay for termie and bknudson!18:02
bknudsondolphm: thanks18:02
bknudsonI +2d this one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/27832/18:02
bknudsonwhat's the "Approve" section? we don't have that in our internal gerrit.18:02
dolphmbknudson: marking as Approved starting the gating & merge process18:03
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dolphmbknudson: wait until you're the second +2 to mark Approve18:03
dolphm#topic High priority bugs or immediate issues?18:03
bknudsondolphm: ok. on our internal gerrit there's a submit button.18:03
*** openstack changes topic to "High priority bugs or immediate issues? (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:03
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dolphmkeystone gate seems to have been gunked up all week? this should fix it according to bknudson https://review.openstack.org/#/c/27832/18:04
dolphmnot sure what the underlying problem is there, but i'd prefer an actual fix rather than a revert if anyone has looked into it18:04
bknudsonHere's the original: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/20231/18:05
dolphmsomeone pinged the mailing list about the same issue last week, not sure who that was?18:06
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dolphm(any other fires?)18:08
dolphm#topic Havana blueprints18:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Havana blueprints (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:09
dolphm#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/havana18:09
spzaladolphm: no sissue here but this backporting candidate needs to be reviewed https://review.openstack.org/#/c/27364/   ayoung is fine with changes (and had +1 it) and I had addressed some some of henry nash's comments.18:09
dolphmspzala: cool, let's get jenkins to +1 first and then circle back :)18:10
dolphmspzala: ping me about it later today18:10
spzaladolphm: ha ha18:10
spzaladolphm: OK sounds good. thanks!18:10
dolphmregarding havana blueprints, that's the list of blueprints i opened or approved as a direct result of conversations at the summit18:10
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dolphmif there are any other outstanding blueprints that you or someone you love are personally planning on pursing in Havana, let me know because i'd like to add them to that list18:11
dolphmayoung: welcome!18:11
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bknudsondolphm: one thing we'd like to add is support for IBM DB2 as database.18:11
ayoungdolphm, cool.  You've probably seen a lot of churn from me on blueprints.  I'm trying to use it as a way to provide common conversation around these things.  I'll ping you when I think anything is close to ready for approve/deny18:12
dolphmayoung: thanks18:12
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dolphmayoung: let me know if the opposite is true as well (if a blueprint doesn't look like it's going to result in a change, we can mark it as obsolete)18:12
jaypipeshi all...18:12
dolphmjaypipes: o/18:12
ayoungbknudson, is DB2 completely Free and Open Source available these days?18:13
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bknudsonit's not open source.18:13
jaypipeshttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/27563/ <-- Proposed Regions CRUD extension for v3.1 API...18:13
bknudsonthere's a free version available.18:13
ayoungbknudson, that is free as in "free fousand quid, govnuh."18:13
topolbknudson, clarify what you mean. you want to add a driver to allow for integration?18:14
dolphmblueprints that must be completed by havana-m2 or they won't land in havana: bp inherited-domain-roles, bp store-quota-data, bp first-class-regions, bp notifications, bp catalog-optional, bp endpoint-filtering18:14
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dolphmthese are all API-affecting blueprints18:14
ayoungbknudson, I would state that you should make sure any patches that go in to the SQL layer work against DB2, but I don't think we should add it to gate.18:15
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bknudsontopol: just like you can configure keystone to work with mysql or postgresql, should work with DB2.18:15
dolphmjaypipes: thanks, will review today18:15
bknudsonayoung: that's fine.18:15
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topoldolphm, I added a blueprint today https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/keystone-ldap-anonymous-binding  how do I get it to show up on your havana radar?18:15
bknudsonmaybe we could add it as a nongating test sometime.18:15
ayoungbknudson, it might be worthwhile to look at the things that we are starting to do per db type and make sure that there is a reasonable catchall, that covers Oracle and DB2, but we won't explicitly reference them18:16
ayoungtopol, let me look at it first18:16
dolphmtopol: that list is based on the Series Goal option -- do you have access to that?18:16
termietopol: the db stuff is pretty straightforward to add as contrib, too18:16
termietopol: for example i have a cassandra backend that is going that route18:16
topoldolphm, no just have milestone target18:17
ayoungtopol, needs to be fleshed out first.  I assume you mean that LDAP is read only, and there is no simple bind done for the manager account to read the user list etc?18:17
dolphmtopol: k, i set it for you -- any others?18:17
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topolayoung, its easy, wanting to do an anonymous simple bind, obviously read only18:18
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dolphmtopol: sounds easy; priority?18:18
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ayoungtopol, write the spec in order to explain it to someone that doesn't understand the LDAP backend.18:18
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dolphmtopol: sounds like a low to me18:19
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dolphmit's also linking to a blank etherpad, but i'm not sure it needs a spec link at all?18:19
topolayoung, will do.  dolphm, priority can be whatever you like. I will get it done for havana.18:19
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dolphmsomething should also specify what new config options will be introduced, and how they'll be used, etc18:19
topolyes, was in the middle of updating and got sidetracked. will complete it today18:19
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gyeetopol, you need a bp for anonymous bind?18:20
topoldolphm, agreed. I will add the details18:20
gyeeyou can just add it right?18:20
topolgyee,  as a bug instead of bp?18:20
ayoungtopol, so we want to support multiple ways of authing to LDAPO, with simple bind just being the frist implemented.  Kerberos is important as well.  The way of specifying how to configure the LDAP connection should not be hard coded to 'basic' or 'anonymous'18:20
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dolphmgyee: blueprints are handy to tell people "hey i'm working on this" and even more handy come Havana release when we can pull up a list of bp18:21
dolphm's and see what new features merged18:21
dolphmgyee: it's definitely NOT a bug18:21
topolIm happy to write the BP. it will be short18:21
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dolphmwe have too many bugs that are feature requests as it stands18:21
topol3 more BPs and I get an instagram account :-)18:21
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topoland a $5 steam gift card18:22
ayoungBTW, might I suggest that you assign yourself as the assignee on a blueprint, or we will close it after a month assuming it is abandoned?  No sense in writing one assuming someone is just going to pick it up to implement18:22
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gyeedolphm, already then18:23
topolayoung I did. I thought I did18:23
gyeebp for a one line change :)18:23
ayoungtopol, speaking to the larger audience18:23
topolgyee.... shhhhh  and hey its needs a config option added too18:24
dolphmgyee: yep, plus docs and tests18:24
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topolyeah that stuff too18:24
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gyeedamn straight18:24
dolphmayoung: that makes sense for very specific use case driven bp's, but some bp's are very broad and deserve to remain open until someone comes along and commits themselves to it18:24
ayoungdolphm, then they can hand it off, I think.18:25
dolphmayoung: s/broad//generally useful/18:25
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ayoungI own it until someone takes mine of my hands.18:25
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dolphmayoung: as the person who opened it, you will always be the stakeholder18:26
ayoungdolphm, do you know if the UI can somehow list the drafter?18:26
dolphmayoung: yes, that's dead center on the bp page18:26
ayoungdolphm, yeah, there is just no way to sort the list by anything other than assigned18:26
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ayoungdolphm, when you create the blueprint, you can list yourself as the drafter, or to change it once you've found, but there is no way to manage those that you have drafted18:27
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ayoungah...if you go to the assignments page...18:28
ayoung#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+assignments18:28
topolayoung, so I got a concern on your json config bp.  I have been told you cant put comments in json.   That makes it a bad choice for config options.18:28
topolplz tell me Im wrong18:29
dolphmtopol: +118:29
gyeetopol, good point18:29
dolphmjson is absolutely horrible for config18:29
ayoungtopol, you are not wrong.18:29
gyeewhy do we want json config?18:30
ayounggyee, not necessarily json, just a way to split out the LDAP config into its own piec,as it is getting huge, but there might be better approaches18:30
ayoungThe Attribute Mapping piece might make sense having a file backing as opposed to a database, for example, and that would fall into the same category18:31
ayoung#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/json-for-ldap18:31
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dolphmayoung: "18:32
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dolphmayoung: "big" isn't a good reason to change the config format at all18:32
ayounggyee, also, if we support multiple LDAP backends, the configuration will start to get confusing as well.18:32
dolphmthat's just a pointless breaking change18:32
topolIdeally all the ldap related config will be in a single file.  I prefer to have in a single place18:32
bknudsonmaybe ldap section needs more structure.18:32
gyeeini format will do fine18:32
ayounggyee, that may be...I just wanted JSON to be the starting point for the discussion, not YAML18:33
ayoungThere are many ways to skin it,18:33
gyeeayoung, I prefer ASN.1 :)18:33
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bknudsonwe could store the config in an ldap directory18:33
topolmaybe move it to the bottom of keystone.conf if we think it will clutter stuff?18:33
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bknudsonmaybe have sections like [ldap.user] for all the user_ options, etc.18:34
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ayoungtopol, so, I think the LDAP config is probably going to merge with the Kent teams attribute mapping work.  And I want it to be revision control-able.  Doesn't have to be JSON, but we need a reasonable file format for it.18:34
gyeeayoung, what's wrong with ini18:34
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ayoungBut lets not have adesign discussion here...25 minutes less18:35
dolphmayoung: we have a oslo.config, i'd suggest we work with that18:35
ayoungdolphm, sounds good18:35
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atiwariare we looking for run time config change? in that case JSON would better work18:37
ayoungso...one issue I think worth addressing that might affect several blueprints is the size and scope of the identity backend.  I think we should conisder splitting it.  I think that the project and roles piece can easily be separate from users and groups.  And then the mapping piece ties the two together18:38
bknudsonayoung: sounds good18:38
ayoungI think that projects are openstack specific concepts, as are roles, whereas users and groups come from an Identity store like LDAP18:38
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gyeeatiwari, LDAP config is static18:39
topolayoung domains goes with the projects and roles, correct?18:39
ayoungwe can state that if no explicit backend is specified for projects, it defaults to the identity backend18:39
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morganfainbergayoung: ooh i like that.18:39
ayoungtopol, domains are potentiall separate.  The chain of domains thing.  But even if we don't do that, we can still allow this split18:40
ayoungtopol, but if domains stay, they would stay in the identity piece and be consumed by the projects side18:40
topolayoung, what would be an explicit backend?  As opposed to the default identity backend?18:40
topolwe have an sql identity backend. an ldap identity backend.  what are you referring too?18:41
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ayoungback in a minute..real world interrupt18:42
dolphmayoung: interesting logic to split the backend on18:42
dolphmi'd put domains with projects, as both are openstack concerns18:43
dolphmor have domains be discrete18:43
bknudsonI like discrete domains.18:43
dolphmtermie would too18:43
topoldolphm +118:44
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dolphmoops... the default domain driver could literally just provide a static 'default' domain18:44
dolphmsatisfies the ldap issue18:45
ayoungdolphm, I like discrete domains18:45
ayoungdolphm, there is an argument in favor of that from the LDAP side, too18:45
dolphmayoung: have you already filed a bp on this split somewhere?18:45
* termie looks for something called "discrete domains"18:45
ayoungsay you are doing what the IBMers are pushing for, which is keystone fronting multiple LDAP servers18:45
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bknudsonthe config entries for domain_driver could point to the same identity driver anyways.18:46
dolphmtermie: moving domains into their own driver18:46
dolphmtermie: ... or extension18:46
ayoungthen each is adomain, but neither can provide the enumeratation of the overall domain list18:46
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ayoungand, people like rackspace still need the ability to create one domain per customer18:46
termiedolphm: +1, mostly i think it should be applied in an AO kind of way rather than interjected all over18:46
ayoungdolphm, I wrote an etherpad, not quite blueprint yet, as it was just brainstorming, on the domain thing18:46
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ayoung#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/chain-of-domains18:47
gyeehow do you provide cross-domain permissions18:47
ayoungI was thinking file for the domains, but should be a driver arch like the other backends18:47
ayounggyee, you could say "this domain is external and provided by that keystone over there..."18:48
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topolIm concerned I couldnt find a stakeholder for chain of domains.  Can we point to anyone who wants this?18:48
ayoungWouldn't call it Federation, though18:48
ayoungtopol, chain of domains is the etherpad name18:49
dolphmgyee: it could be implemented as federation from the same keystone endpoint?18:49
ayoungthe bp would be "split domains from identity"18:49
ayoungbut probably now18:49
ayoung"split identity into separate backends"18:49
gyeeand we need to have user that is visible to all domains18:49
gyeethis is important for public cloud, for support and auditing18:49
dolphmgyee: explain?18:49
dolphm"visbile to all domains"?18:50
ayounggyee, visible is different from assigned18:50
gyeeaccessible to all domains18:50
ayounggyee,  a user in one domain can be provided access to a project in another18:50
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ayoungthat doesn't change18:50
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termieayoung: i don't think this blueprint is organized enough to warrant much discussion at this point18:51
gyeeayoung, I thought you mean there's no way to list all the domains18:51
gyeeyeah, lets write something up and discuss18:51
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ayoungtermie, yep, just wanted it on people's radar.  We can have the dicussion out of the meeting18:51
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ayoung#action ayoung write up blueprint for splitting identity18:52
termieayoung: well, you are going to discuss it for ever if you don't add some structure that people can reference18:52
termieayoung: i am not sure that "splitting identity" has anything to do with this "cbhain of domains" idea18:52
termieayoung: but kudos to you for coming up with the vaguest name today18:52
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ayoungtermie, it can be two blueprints that reference each other, either way18:52
gyeeayoung was just trying to fillerbust the meeting :)18:53
termieayoung: lulz, now you have two problems18:53
dolphmooh circular references in bp's!18:53
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ayoungOK...so I create one blueprint that is an abstract base class....18:54
ayounganyway, next agenda item?18:54
dolphm#topic open discussion18:54
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:54
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dolphmi think we're already at open discussion anyway18:54
termiewhen are having a keystoners offsite?18:54
ayoungah, cool.18:54
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dolphmtermie: november 4th?18:54
topolwhats that?18:54
gyeein Hong Hong18:54
ayoungtermie, lets have it in Yosemite18:55
gyeeKong Kong18:55
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gyeeHong Kong18:55
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termieayoung: yosemite is pretty nice, but november might be late, maybe sept?18:55
termiedolphm: ^18:55
ayounghow many people thing that they are actually going to be headed to HK?  Seems like it might be poorly attended.18:55
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topolis this a prevacation before the next summit?18:56
termieayoung: i'll be there18:56
ayoungSept is Big wall season.  Works for me18:56
topolIm hoping to goto Hong Kong18:56
dolphmi'll definitely be there18:56
stevemaris there usually something in between summits?18:56
topolusually Hong Kong events on cloud stuff get big crowds18:56
termiestevemar: no, but we're cool18:57
dolphmstevemar: we can start a new tradition18:57
dolphmthe pre-summit offsite18:57
ayoungI'm planning on it, too, but the travel budget is tight, and we have a lot of people on Open Stack.  Need to make the argument to the decision makers that I should go.18:57
termieayoung: don't tell them you work on keystone18:57
dolphmtermie: +118:57
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termieayoung: sure way to be sidelined18:57
topolwhat??? Keystone gets big respect over here in big blue land18:58
ayoungtermie, heh, they know already.18:58
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topolits not like its ceilometer or something...18:58
termietopol: orly? all that most people i know want out of keystone is to make the validate call faster18:58
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termietopol: which is why it is so easy for me to say no to things all the time18:59
topol(Just kidding,  I have folks working on ceilometer)18:59
termietopol: you are some sort of puppetmaster18:59
stevemartermie: so many puppets!18:59
termieBrad "I've got people on that" Topol18:59
topoltermie, its called LEADERSHIP18:59
stevemartopol: kidding :P18:59
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ayoungtermie, so I wonder if the PKI token in memory validation means that we have made it faster or slower.19:00
termieSteve "Yes sir!" Martinelli19:00
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ayoungstilltrying to get some performance numbers on that19:00
termieayoung: v3 api means you have made it slower ;)19:00
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ayoungtermie, PKI went in prior to that, though, and auth_token middleware doesn't use v319:00
ayoungbut actually, it shouldn't matter, as validation is kindof agnostic to the token format19:01
ayoungOK, we're over time19:01
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termiewould love if somebody wanted to set up more perf stuff, btw, otherwise i'll eventually have to get off my ass and do it19:01
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termieEVERYBODY OUT19:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"19:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Apr 30 19:02:49 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-04-30-18.01.html19:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-04-30-18.01.txt19:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-04-30-18.01.log.html19:02
dolphmi need a 2pm meeting over notice19:03
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jeblairdolphm: not a bad idea19:03
jeblair#startmeeting infra19:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Apr 30 19:03:46 2013 UTC.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:03
topolisnt that just the next ptl yelling at you19:03
topolto get off19:04
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jeblairmordred: are you above 10,000 feet yet?  :)19:05
jeblair#topic items from last meeting19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "items from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:06
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jeblairfungi: slaves?19:06
fungirhel6 slaves have been replaced by centos6 slaves and destroyed/deleted19:06
fungithe change to switch the node labels (i added temporary compatability labels ahead of time) is in the process of merging19:07
fungiit also adds some periodic centos6 bitrot jobs so dprince can ferret out the remainder of patches needing backports19:07
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fungiand i disabled and eventually deleted the precise unit test slaves too19:07
fungisince those hadn't been used for a month or more19:08
jeblairi believe the stable 2.6 tests are the last thing that holds us back from dropping oneiric?19:08
fungii think that's the current status on slave versions at the moment19:08
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clarkbjeblair: yes19:08
jeblairfungi: sounds good!19:09
fungiyeah, dprince is working on sorting the last few patches he needs for that19:09
fungialso i cleaned up our puppeting to make it easier to add debian slaves should we want/need to do so later19:09
jlkor sooner...19:09
clarkbthat segways us into "what do we do about >= 13.04 having only 9 months of support?"19:09
jeblairgood, i like having a plan b19:09
fungisomeone on the tc (hint mordred) needs to strike up the conversations around all that19:10
jeblair#topic jenkins slave operating systems19:10
*** openstack changes topic to "jenkins slave operating systems (Meeting topic: infra)"19:10
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clarkbrackspace does have a raring image now fwiw19:10
* clarkb checks hpcloud19:10
mordredoh good19:10
jeblairmordred: you had some thoughts about that last week; want to chat about those?19:10
mordredthe idea was that since we're not supposed to break rhel/lts19:11
clarkbno raring on hpcloud19:11
mordredthat we use lts nodes to do testing of stable+119:11
clarkbmordred: my concern with that is while we are not supposed to break lts how do we know we havent?19:12
mordredand maintain our focus otherwise on current ubuntu release for dev purposes of master19:12
jeblairmordred: by stable+1 do you mean two releases back?  eg, folsom now?19:12
mordredyes. stable+1 == folsom now19:12
fungigood thing our precise unit test slaves needed to be rebuilt on rackspace nova anyway, so deleting them was not wasted work19:12
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mordredand I'd say that since stable branches are really the purview of the distros and they've pledged to support things on their lts release19:12
fungi(well, all but 2 of the 16 anyway)19:12
mordredthere's a clear ownership for problems19:13
mordredDaviey: you around? does the above sound reasonable to you?19:13
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jeblairmordred: what do we use to test 2.6 on master?19:13
clarkbjeblair: centos19:13
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clarkbthat problem exists even without the 9 month support19:14
mordredor hell - debian apparently has all pythons :)19:14
fungiand i assume lts for stable+1 means the lts which was current at the time stable+1 was developed/released, not whatever the latest lts is (which might not be the same occasionally)19:14
jeblairi'm wondering why we should bother testing on non-lts at all?  (which i think is pretty similar to what clarkb is saying?)19:15
fungimordred: i wouldn't say all, but wheezy will have 2.6, 2.7 and 3.2 in main, with 3.3 in backports19:15
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clarkbjeblair: correct19:15
ttxfungi: with Ubuntu's cloud archive latest LTS is where you would find stable+119:15
mordredjeblair: because our devs focus on current release, not on lts19:15
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mordredand for good reason19:15
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zulttx: not necessarily  a new version of python19:16
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jeblairmordred: sure, but your plan is to bump testing of a project that was tested on latest back to lts at a more or less arbitrary point in time19:16
jlkwheezy is probably not a good target either, unless you want to shuffle it again soon19:16
jeblairmordred: so if that's going to work, why won't just testing on the lts to start with work?19:17
mordredjeblair: we could test on both the whole time and then just drop "latest" when it dies19:17
mordredsequencing, I believe19:17
mordrednew things go in to master, tested against latest ubuntu19:17
clarkbwe have been really bad at changing platforms for various reasons19:17
mordredthey will be backported to cloud archive for lts, but probably not until they've landed on master I'd imagine19:18
mordrednew features are not landed against stable branches19:18
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clarkbwe are only just recently on quantal (~6 months after release) and devstack is still all precise19:18
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mordredso the needs for preemptive backporting don't exist19:18
clarkbif we have to iterate that quickly just to drop support 3 months later that feels like a lot of wasted effort to me19:18
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mordredclarkb makes a good point that most of this is theory and not practice19:19
zulwait what are you guys trying to do?19:19
mordredzul: you guys new support lifecycle broke ours19:19
fungiwell, i consider the time i spent getting tests running on quantal will be applicable toward getting them running on raring anyway19:19
mordredzul: our stable branches need testing for 12 months19:19
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zulmordred:  how?19:19
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mordredbut ubuntu only now exists for 9 months at a pop19:19
ttxmordred: sounds like revenge :)19:19
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mordredttx: likely :)19:19
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mordredzul: so we're trying to sort out how to test changes to stable+1 branches19:20
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zulmordred:  we wouldnt get revenge ;)19:20
clarkbnow we could just automagically switch to $newrelease when they come out and break the gate19:20
zulmordred:  why not 12.04 with the coud archive enabled19:20
ttxzul: we can't continue to test grizzly/raring when raring goes out of support, and we need it for 12 months, and you now provide 9 instead of 1819:20
mordredzul: sorry, that's what I was proposing19:21
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clarkbwith the expectation that a week after ubuntu releases we spend a couple days fixing all the things19:21
zulmordred:  that sounds sane to me19:21
clarkbbut if we try to put things in place workign I think we will always be well behind the curve19:21
mordredclarkb: you mean for master?19:21
clarkbmordred: yes19:21
* fungi dislikes the kind of scramble "taking a couple days to fix all the things breaking the gate" implies19:21
mordredclarkb: I think our problem has historically been the slow speed our cloud vendors have in providing us images19:21
zulwell all of the stuff is gotten from pip isnt it?19:21
mordredzul: libvirt19:21
fungiand python itself19:22
jeblairmordred: clarkb, fungi, and dprince have put a huge amount of effort into upgrading to quantal, and we're not done yet19:22
mordredwhich, btw, is broken on redhat (python itself)19:22
zulmordred:  libvirt is not a problem the cloud archive gets the same version whats in the development release19:22
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mordredjeblair: agree19:22
clarkbmordred: my issue is that if we switch to raring at the end of havana (as we switched to quantal afte rgrizzly) then we have only 3 months of support on that before we drop back to LTS19:22
jeblairclarkb: we shouldn't have waited that long19:22
clarkbso its not just the stable branches that are at issue. we *will* have to iterate much faster than we have been able to19:22
clarkbjeblair: yeah that19:22
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mordredwell, problem 1 is that it takes so long for us to be able to _start_ migrating19:23
jlkthe worry is that changing the test platform in the middle of a release cycle introduces more churn than desired?19:23
mordredbut - I'm willing to not die on this hill19:23
clarkbjlk: it is a lot of churn that we give up on shortly after (to me the benefits are fuzzy but the costs are known and expensive)19:23
mordredif everyone else thinks that lts+cloud-archive is sane for master, then fine... I just worry that we're going to hit backport hell like we had 2 years ago19:24
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jlkand the flip side is that continuing to test on a dead-end platform isn't providing much benefit in the Real World?19:24
mordredbut it's also possible that we've stabalized and I'm being an olld curmudgeon19:24
zulmordred:  you shouldnt since you guys are getting the python dependencies from pypi19:25
mordredzul: yeah. and I think libxml and libvirt are reasonably sane from an api perspective at this point19:25
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mordredI'm game19:25
clarkbmordred: if we could get rackspace and hp to commit to having images available in a decent amount of time (thank you rackspace for raring) I think we could try speeding the cycle up19:25
zulmordred:  hah libvirt sane19:25
mordredclarkb: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA19:25
jlkthe desire is for something newer than LTS, but with longer support than Ubuntu now has19:25
clarkbmordred: exactly19:25
mordredclarkb: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA19:26
mordredI repeated myself19:26
clarkbif we are beholden to other people it is really hard to promise with such a short window19:26
mordredyes. I believe the story will be a bit different once we have glance api endpoint available, but they are not now19:26
jlkclarkb: is it just Ubuntu images you're in need of, or would fast access to other platforms (like Fedora) help as well?19:26
clarkbjlk: right now its just ubuntu19:26
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mordredjlk: fedora would not be helpful19:26
fungifrom my perspective, the desire is for something which has the versions of system components we need (python et al) and decent run time for security support into the future19:26
jlkok. (just trying to understand the problem scope)19:27
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mordredjlk: when people talk about cloud interop - this is one of the things that doesn't get talked about enough19:27
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jlkimage availability, or platform to run on?19:27
clarkbjlk: the TC decided in january that we would tset on latest ubuntu with an eye for not breaking current RHEL and Ubuntu LTS19:27
mordredwithout image upload ability, we're stuck waiting until BOTH clouds upload new images19:27
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clarkbwe are going to use centos to test python 2.6 as ubuntu has ditched 2.6. That covers current RHEL19:28
jlkis somebody working on image upload capability on the RAX side? (understanding that it's not a problem for raring at this time)19:28
mordredyes. both clouds want it as a feature19:28
clarkbso now we need to accomodate testing on current ubuntu or ask the TC to reconsider the platforms we test on or ????19:28
mordredwell - the policy has always been dev on latest ubuntu19:28
mordredhowever, I do not believe we have EVER actually been able to do that19:28
mordreddue to lag time19:29
mordredwe've pretty consistently been at least one release behind19:29
* jlk cries a little to himself, softly. 19:29
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jeblair#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/python-support-motion19:29
mordredso it might just be time to call a spade a spade and go with a new plan19:29
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fungidistro making release + all providers of interest making images available of that release + time for us to test and fix things we need working on that release + time to switch tests over to it19:30
jeblairtechnically the tc agreed on a motion about targeting development.  it wasn't quite so specific to specify exactly what test platforms, but i think the intent is that we should use it to guide what we do19:30
mordredI agree19:30
mordredhowever, I betcha we could do the lts+cloud archive for testing19:30
mordredas a vehicle to support that motion19:31
mordredand have few enough corner cases that anyone would ever notice19:31
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jeblairmordred: it sounds like that's worth a shot, and if we get into dependency hell, then we know we have a reason to speed up the treadmill19:31
mordredsince cloud archive has latest ubuntu backports of the relevant bits19:31
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mordredjeblair: ++19:31
mordredwe may want to add an apt mirror for the cloud archive19:32
mordredas I do not believe our providers are doing local mirrors of it19:32
mordredor mayubbe it doesn't matter?19:32
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jlkseems like Ubuntu is going to be trying to do that work anyway (keeping OStack releases going on LTS) so making use of that effort makes sense to me.19:32
fungiif we're going to that trouble, it seems sane to just mirror what we need in general (rackspace's ubuntu mirror has gone down from time to time too)19:33
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clarkbfungi: ++19:33
mordredfungi: I have a reprepro config for it already actually19:33
jeblairmordred: you want to drop that in puppet then?19:34
mordredwe'd need cloud-local mirrors19:34
mordredwhich I'm not 100% sure how to solve - but I'll put my brainhole on it19:34
fungii continue to wonder if cloud-local (one per az or whatever) mirrors don't also make sense for our pypi mirroring19:34
jeblairmordred: i think devstack-gate can accommodate that fairly easily19:35
jlkmordred: that'd be our own instances acting as a mirror, because of fear that the provider provided mirror might go down?19:35
clarkbjlk: correct19:35
jeblairmordred: (in the image creation step, do provider-specific apt-source config)19:35
clarkbjlk: and they do go down occasionally19:35
mordredjeblair: yes. although I'd like to figure it out for unittest slaves too19:35
jlkclarkb: but doesn't that just cause them to hit the next mirror (maybe more slowly)?19:35
jlkforgive me, I come from the yum world19:36
zuljeblair:  besides you know who to bug if something breaks ;)19:36
fungijlk: the bigger issue is, the more external bits we rely on being reachable for tests, the more their outages multiply each other (multiple points of failure rather than just a single point of failure)19:36
jeblairmordred: actually, if you solve it for unit test slaves in puppet , you might not have to do anything special for devstack-gate.19:36
clarkbjlk: no apt usually complains then dies19:36
jlkclarkb: awesome :/19:36
jeblairmordred: (even though unit test slaves don't strictly need it right now because they are one-provider)19:36
jlkfungi: I understand that. What I didn't quite grasp was that apt doesn't have a mirror system to fail through19:36
mordredjeblair: let me poke and see if there is a pure-puppet mechanism I can dream up19:37
mordredjeblair: ++19:37
jeblair#action mordred set up per-provider apt mirrors (incl cloud archive) and magic puppet config to use them19:37
fungijlk: yeah apt expects to try one url to retrieve a package, and then errors out rather than continuing to spend time trying other urls19:37
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fungiwell, the alternative is to take lots of time to realize your network is broken and it's not a mirror issue19:38
jlkso really, doing our own is just moving the potential problem closer to us19:38
jeblairso, er, we're dropping the quantal slaves and going back to precise?19:38
jeblairjlk: which tends to work out for us19:39
clarkbjeblair: I really want to say no, because quantal has 18 months of support19:39
jlkfungi: *shrug* in the yum world that could be a matter of seconds or so. But you never suffer from a single mirror being out of date or down.19:39
clarkbbut doing quantal then going back to precise is just weird19:39
fungiwhen is the next ubuntu lts due?19:39
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clarkbone year19:40
* fungi thinks doing quantal and then upgrading to wheezy doesn't sound *that* weird ;)19:40
clarkb(we may want to move onto other topics before our hour is up)19:40
clarkbI think we have a good handle of the problem with a general solution. we can sort out details later19:40
jeblairdetails are important?19:41
jeblairclarkb: i think you just said that we have decided to test "I" on precise19:41
jlkdetails are important, but consensus may not be reached during meeting.19:41
clarkbdefinitely but so are things like gerrit 2.6, lists.o.o, logstash, etc :)19:41
jeblairclarkb: and we're either planning on testing "H" on either quantal or precise?19:41
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clarkbjeblair: that is how I grok19:41
jeblairi think that's kind of an important point to resolve so we don't go off-track...19:42
fungiwill 14.04 be available in time for the "ifoo" development timeframe, or not until "jbar"?19:42
jeblairif you want, we can punt to the next meeting for time, but i don't want to start work on this project without resolving that.19:42
clarkbjeblair: ++ I don't intend on things changing until we have consensus19:43
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jeblairokay, i'll put this on the agenda for next time then19:43
jeblairhowever, the agenda wasn't updated since last time, so, what else would you like to discuss? :)19:43
clarkbwoops. I know gerrit 2.6, lists.o.o, and logstash are things that are on my radar19:44
fungidoes anyone have anything specifically for me? i need to duck out early (another minute or two)19:44
jeblair#topic gerrit2.619:44
*** openstack changes topic to "gerrit2.6 (Meeting topic: infra)"19:44
clarkbalso I'd like to talk about testr maybe as we should really push that hard before people get wary of merging those changes19:44
mordredI believe zaro is going to start looking at 2.619:44
* fungi ducks out. back in #-infra later if something comes up19:45
zarojust started reading docs.19:45
jeblairzaro: can you find-or-create a bug in openstack-ci about upgrading to 2.6 and assign it to yourself?19:45
zarojeblair: sure will.19:45
clarkbas I understand it the intent with gerrit 2.6 is to no longer run a fork of gerrit19:45
clarkbis that correct?19:46
mordredzaro: welcome to the traditional hazing gerrit tasks - everyone has had one when they started ... :)19:46
jeblairi would like to not run a fork19:46
mordredclarkb: yes. if possible19:46
zaromordred: thanks a lot.  clarkb warned me during interview.19:46
jeblairif we have to diverge, i'd like us to try to do it in a way where we expect the divergence to be accepted upstream19:46
clarkbI ask because I think this will influence the upgrade process19:46
clarkbwant to make sure we are on the same page. sounds like we are \o/19:46
jeblairyeah, it's not just forward-port patches, it's gap-analysis, and try to figure out the easiest way to close19:47
jeblairclarkb: +119:47
jeblair#topic lists.o.o19:47
*** openstack changes topic to "lists.o.o (Meeting topic: infra)"19:47
jeblairclarkb: TTL is already 30019:47
clarkbso I just booted and puppetted a replacement server for lists.o.o (old server is oneiric which will EOL in just over a week)19:48
jeblairclarkb: so dns is ready to change when you are19:48
clarkbok. I will set temporary DNS records for the new host after this meeting.19:48
jeblairwe should announce a cutover time19:48
clarkbI will start the data migration after the 1st to avoid any mailman monthly emails19:48
clarkbjeblair: yes. Is this something that we think needs to happen over a weekend?19:49
clarkb(I am leaning that way)19:49
jeblairand as i mentioned in -infra a few mins ago, i think we should avoid having exim send over v6 to start19:49
jeblairthough i think it's okay to add AAAA records19:49
jeblair(and have exim receive on v6)19:49
* mordred agrees with every opinion jeblair has on mail19:49
clarkbif we want to do a weekend before oneiric EOLs we will have to do it this weekend. We can do it the one after if we are willing to risk a couple days of EOL19:50
zarothis weekend is good for me.19:50
jeblairclarkb: yes, i think something in the friday-night to sunday-morning range19:50
jeblairclarkb: and this weekend works for me too19:50
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mordredsame here19:50
clarkbhow about 9am PST saturday?19:50
clarkbok, I will send a notification this afternoon after lunch19:51
jeblair#action clarkb send email announcing lists.o.o move at 9am pst saturday19:51
jeblair#topic testr19:51
*** openstack changes topic to "testr (Meeting topic: infra)"19:51
Davieymordred: hey19:51
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jeblairclarkb: testr thoughts?19:51
mordredyes. I agree19:51
clarkbya, nova, quantum and some of the clients are done19:51
mordredwe should push hard on testr early in the cycle19:52
clarkbmordred: do we need to be more coordinated and push testr on everyone else before milestone 1?19:52
mordredbut - it's a big task and slightly out of scope for us19:52
mordredI think we should just get markmc and sdague to yell at people19:52
mordred(honestly, there's no way that we have the manpower to do it by ourselves)19:53
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mordredso perhaps bugging ttx to start a chat with folks in the meeting about best ways to get them migrated?19:53
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mordredI can tell everyone is excited by this topic19:55
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sdagueme yelling doesn't help all that much :)19:56
jeblair#topic eavesdrop.o.o19:56
*** openstack changes topic to "eavesdrop.o.o (Meeting topic: infra)"19:56
jeblairi think eavesdrop needs migration too.19:57
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clarkbthat works for me.19:57
clarkbbut I think we should pay attention to it and be proactive19:57
clarkb#action clarkb to ping markmc and sdague about move to testr19:57
clarkbI will see what they think and do braindumps as necessary19:57
jeblairclarkb: shall we do it at the same time as lists?19:57
clarkbDo we want an open discussion? I can talk about logstash a little bit too19:57
clarkbjeblair: might as well19:57
jeblair#topic open discussion19:57
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ttxmordred: ack, how about I plug you in during meeting so that you pass the bucket ?19:57
ttxmaybe someone else will volunteer to do the nagging19:57
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mordredttx: great19:57
clarkbFYI I think logstash.o.o's data is now consistent. After much hammering19:58
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clarkbindex size per day has grown to about 5GB19:58
jeblairclarkb: so we're past the burn-and-rebuild stage?19:58
clarkbjeblair: I think so19:58
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clarkbthere is a bug in kibana where the timestamps don't show their milliseconds correctly... is fixed in master. I may pull that it. Otherwise I think the next step is getting other logs into logstash19:59
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jeblaircool.  i think that's time for us.20:00
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jeblairthanks all, and we'll work out the rest of the details about test platforms next week20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Apr 30 20:00:26 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-04-30-19.03.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-04-30-19.03.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-04-30-19.03.log.html20:00
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* mikal waits in the doorway20:00
* devananda lurks in the hallway20:01
ttxmarkmc, dolphm, jd__, markwash, jgriffith, russellb, shardy, gabrielhurley, markmcclain: still around ?20:01
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ttxannegentle ?20:01
ttxvishy: ?20:01
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hub_capo/ for reddwarf topic20:02
ttxwe have quorum.20:02
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Apr 30 20:02:41 2013 UTC.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:02
ttxAgenda @ https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee20:03
ttxPlease all welcome shardy who will be Heat PTL for Havana20:03
markmcwelcome shardy :)20:03
jgriffithhey shardy20:03
gabrielhurleywelcome and congrats!20:03
shardythanks all :)20:03
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ttx#topic RedDwarf Application for Incubation - introduction discussion20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "RedDwarf Application for Incubation - introduction discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
ttxRedDwarf folks filed for formal incubation at:20:03
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ReddwarfAppliesForIncubation20:04
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ttxWe'd like to kick off the discussion at this meeting and ideally make a decision by next week meeting20:04
ttxSo the idea for today is to raise the concerns we have and the questions we'd like answered before next week20:04
hub_caphello and thx for the consideration20:04
ttxhub_cap: care to summarize the project so far and why you think it's ready for incubation ?20:04
hub_capsure thang20:04
hub_capthe project contains the basics for a relational database as a service, with 2 implementations being tested and dev'd on, percona and oracle mysql20:05
hub_capat present the api does not preclude us from tackling postgres, or nosql solutions20:05
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hub_capits got instance creation (which will eventually be instrumented by Heat), and user / schema creation20:05
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hub_capas well as resizes, root password enabling20:06
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hub_capquotas, limits, standard OpenStack stuffs20:06
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hub_capall the features can be found at20:06
hub_cap#link https://github.com/stackforge/database-api/blob/master/openstack-database-api/src/markdown/database-api-v1.md20:06
hub_capso why do we feel we are ready?20:06
hub_capa few things20:06
hub_capweve been following, and interested in being incubated for a while now20:07
hub_capwe have support from > 1 company, and we are getting more support from vendors who are interested in getting into openstack from a db perspective20:07
hub_capweve been following all the guidelines, using stackforge, gating, running ci tests as gates as well as pep / unit20:08
hub_capkeeping inline w/ blueprints / bugs, and the release schedule OpenStack follows20:08
hub_cap#link https://launchpad.net/reddwarf20:08
hub_capso we feel like we are at critical mass, effectively20:08
hub_capand would like the help and support from OpenStack community20:08
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hub_capot make this a world class Database as a Service project20:09
* hub_cap gets off soapbox20:09
ttxOK, questions time20:09
ttxThe most obvious one is the need to rename the code name of the project into something more... hmm less... pre-existing20:09
ttxbut I'm pretty sure there are other questions20:10
russellbyeah, here's one20:10
hub_capless preexisting than a 'cool star' ;)20:10
russellbYou've mentioned that RD has been deployed in production already. How will this affect openness to significant changes?  I suspect that entering incubation will greatly increase visbility of the project, and people interested in providing input.  Is that something you have concerns about?20:10
markwash#link http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094535/20:10
hub_capaww markwash :P20:10
hub_caprussellb: at rax we are well aware of what this will do to the product, from a openness perspective20:10
jcooleyditto for HP.20:10
hub_capwe are embracing the change as a good thing, and i am devoted 100% to the public20:11
hub_capmy title @ rax is community dev lead, i focus on the product in the open. period.20:11
shardyhub_cap: A lot of instance-specific stuff seems to have been defined in the API, do you expect that to remain, e.g after you abstract the instance behind a heat template?20:11
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shardySeems like implementation has bled through rather than being a pure DB API abstraction20:11
markmcon the name, fwiw - I don't see it "creating confusion in the market place" - but IANAL, and we should get real advice20:11
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mordredI actually agree with markmc20:12
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hub_capshardy: i think thats a good question. we havent begun to look @ how heat will help us, and if it changes our api, then thats something we have to roll with20:12
russellbyeah, i was surprised to see security group management in your API, for example.  seems like a duplicate of something that lives in other apis20:12
annegentlehub_cap: have you reached out to mirantis about Savanna (or have they come to you?)20:12
hub_capthere is some mysql specifics, and id love to take those out20:12
hub_capannegentle: not at present20:12
hub_caprussellb: the security groups is a pass thru, so people dont have to go to nova for some of the functionality20:12
shardyrussellb: agree20:13
vipulthe security groups impl is there to abstract away the VM from the end user, but also allow them to manage some things20:13
russellbone of the incubation questions is "how likely is the architecture to change drastically?" or something to that effect ... this question about heat seems to be high risk in this area20:13
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ttxmordred/markmc: well, we can certainly push it to the Foundation and see how that rolls, before manding a name change.20:13
hub_caprussellb: its possible that some of the backend will change but we will strive to make this as painles as possible to deployers and users20:13
russellbhub_cap: yeah but i don't agree that passthrough is a solution, only a temporary thing if needed20:13
markmcagree on the issue of future major architecture changes re heat20:13
hub_caprussellb: thats fine wrt secgroups20:14
gabrielhurleyPersonally I see huge value in Red Dwarf, and everything that was discussed in the email thread on RD's incubation was spot on. But this vote comes down to "are we now openly admitting that OpenStack will accept IaaS++ projects into Integrated?" We're already moving that way, but if we go there for real it's opening the doors for many others. This isn't really a question to anyone; it's merely what I'm grappling with in20:14
mordredI'm not sure I agree wrt heat20:14
russellbi think we should stick to the heat topic, that's a much bigger issue20:14
markmcit'd be nice to at least understand how re-architecting to use heat will change things20:14
markmcmordred, agree that it should use heat? or agree we should know in advance how it will change things?20:14
hub_capso i see heat as a way, under the covers to help us create instances, and clusters20:14
grapexrusselb: We've already had to change a lot of architecture in the past (back when we were a fork of Nova well over a year ago and changed to be a stand-alone project making REST calls), and we managed to do it while maintaining our API.20:14
mordredI think that heat is a new wrinkle for many of the projects that they'll need to deal with and part of the overall project evolving20:14
ttxrussellb: yes20:14
gabrielhurleyI'd like to see the Heat work as a condition of successful graduation20:15
shardyI think exposing details of how the DB is deployed via the API is wrong, e.g in our RDS nested stack resource implementation all of that is hidden20:15
jd__gabrielhurley: I think having Swift is already answering the question of "are we going IasS+" :-)20:15
shardyusers shouldn't care about those details IMO20:15
russellbshardy: agreed20:15
ttxThe only potential barrier to incubation that I can see would be "shouldn't it be rearchitected to use  Heat prior to be accepted for incubation"20:15
mordredI agree with jd__20:15
hub_capshardy: right. thast why they will create a "instance" and we will use heat to plug it all in20:15
dolphmhub_cap: regarding mysql specifics, has there at least been a proof of concept to manage nosql? i don't want to see us hit an openstack release with a blocker for something we're claiming future support for20:16
hub_capi dont see that significantly altering our api20:16
hub_capdolphm: im working on a redis POC now20:16
ttxpersonally, I think part of the incubation process is to create the incentive to align with other integrated projects20:16
shardyhub_cap: I think the whole usage of the word "instance" wrt providing a database service needs to be reconsidered20:16
russellbttx: that's interesting perspective20:16
russellbcalling it "instance" if != "instance" in nova is very confusing20:16
gabrielhurleyone wrinkle: if red warf uses Heat under the hood (which we all want) then we've moved Heat into a dependency tree whereas it was independently optionaly before...20:16
shardyimho of course ;)20:16
hub_capshardy: thats fine, we went back and forth for a LONG time to try to come up w/ something that made sense to us20:16
ttxso that question could be used against RD for graduation, not for incubatuion ?20:17
hub_capttx: i like that :)20:17
markmcgabrielhurley, reddwarf will be optional :)20:17
russellbi still think it's worth considering the heat issue now vs later20:17
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gabrielhurleymarkmc: yeah, that's about the only solution I can see20:17
annegentleI'm trying to decide if it's preservationist or conservationist to require use of Heat API for integration? Does it preserve resources or actually require more?20:17
russellbbecause what if someone looks into this and decides it's easier to just start over to do a heat based approach?20:17
annegentle"it" means the heat req.20:17
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hub_capi dont think it alters the api annegentle. things that would alter the api woudl be deciding to call it something diff than instances moreso...20:18
annegentlerussellb: words are difficult to preserve :)20:18
shardyannegentle: It's just about avoiding huge duplication of effort IMO20:18
hub_capwe are going to use heat behind the scenes20:18
jd__ttx: makes sense to me20:18
markmcannegentle, architectural sanity; avoiding having two things in the architecture that overlap20:18
demorris to me, Heat integration would be contained within the implementation and does not mean that it would bleed through and cause the API to change...20:18
markmchub_cap, great :)20:18
markwashdemorris: +120:18
gabrielhurleydemorris: that's what I'd expect too20:19
russellbthis is more about blessing an API, though ...20:19
annegentlehub_cap: demorris: okay.20:19
russellberr, more than blessing an API20:19
markmcthe "using heat won't change the API" seems a bit hand-wavey to me, though20:19
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jcooleydmorris: also +1, the only concern may be around terminology. but has Heat settled on terminology yet or is that still in flux?20:19
markwashI want to imagine that Heat would be on the implementation rather than api side of RD20:19
shardydemorris: that would be true if the API didn't already expose details of the implementation20:19
markmci.e. is that based on looking at how you'd use heat, or a vague understanding of what heat is?20:19
hub_capsure, but does the history of incubated projects mean that they all have solid, complete apis, before becoming incubated?20:19
annegentleyeah my okay was more like oh-kayyy.20:19
annegentlemarkmc: ^^ yeah20:19
hub_capi think the process to becoming integrated will be to solidify the api around openstack20:20
hub_capyall didnt have input before we were incubated cuz we wre just loosely affiliated20:20
hub_capnow we are asking for input20:20
jcooleymarkmc: the hand-wavvy part is that we may need additional parameters, but the operations are the same... right?  CRUD model.20:20
demorrisshardy, am curious in what contexts we are showing impl details in the API20:20
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russellbquestion is, is RD as it is today actually where you would start for something like this based on heat, or would you start over?20:20
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hub_capand during this process we will be _fixing_ this stuff :)20:20
russellbunless someone has seriously looked into this, i don't think anyone can answer that20:20
hub_caprussellb: i see no need to start over20:20
russellbdo you know that?20:20
hub_capi cant predict the future ;)20:21
markmcwell, would e.g. the taskmanager service be required if you were using heat ?20:21
hub_capnor have i looked into it deeply20:21
russellbbut someone can spend some in depth time considering what this would look like20:21
shardydemorris: security groups and rules, instance flavors, instance-orientated terminology20:21
markmcor would the api talk directly to heat and hand off20:21
mordredwell, I think since rax and hp have this in front of customers, I doubt they'll start completely from scratch20:21
hub_capmarkmc: task mgr also takes care of long running db tasks20:21
jcooleymarkmc: yes, it would.20:21
hub_capbackups, restores, replication etc...20:21
markmcah, ok20:21
jd__changing or building a new API doesn't sound like something bad as long as it's well handled, which is a criteria to judge for accepting a project to core, not really the API itself, IMHO20:22
annegentleI think RD has flexed along the way and proven flexible, but my concern is about centralized resource sharing (docs, qa, etc.) It's my usual line of questioning.20:22
russellbbtw, i'm disappointed that we have to consider the fact that companies put this into production before integrating with the community in our decision process20:22
jcooleymarkmc: we still want to factor the front end API tier from the backend.20:22
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markmcbut taskmanager might not be required for instance management tasks?20:22
demorrisshardy: I guess I was thinking you were meaning we were exposing DB specific implementation, which I think is what matters in this case20:22
hub_capmarkmc: my guess is "probably not?" wiht a ?20:22
hub_capwe can remove those code paths :D20:22
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ttxrussellb: do we ?20:22
russellbttx: well it has been brought up multiple times in this conversation20:23
mordredrussellb: I am as well, but I see this as a path to getting some of that back under control personally20:23
shardyone interesting chicken/egg thing is we'd like to use RD instead of our nested-stack RDS implementation20:23
mordredttx: I think it is a salient data point20:23
jcooleymarkmc: no, anything that could cause latency on the front-end would want to be moved to the taskmanager/backend.20:23
russellbmordred: yeah, guess so ... but I also want to make it clear that this was the wrong order of operations.20:23
mordredrussellb: ++20:23
markmcshardy, is that really a problem ? seems like it would work fine20:23
shardymarkmc: probably not, was just thinking of the bi-directional dependencies20:24
mordredshardy: I had the same question - but I haven't wrapped my head around it fully yet - but couldn't heat call rd which then calls heat ?20:24
gabrielhurleyI don't see any reason why it couldn't20:24
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russellbyeah, would really like someone to do some in depth investigation on how you'd design something like this to work with heat, we're doing a lot of guessing on it20:24
ttxmaybe you can work on some clear Heat integration plan that you would follow if you were to be incubated, so that we can judge how realistic it sounds20:24
shardymordred: Yep, that would work, quite similar to our existing nested stack mechanism but defined via RD20:24
hub_caprussellb: ++20:24
russellbttx: ++20:24
markmcheh, mordred of OpenStack on Openstack claiming *this* is hard to get his head around :)20:24
hub_capwe can do that ttx20:25
mordredmarkmc: hehe20:25
ttxthat would be great, seems to be one of the most pressing concerns at this point20:25
ttxanything else RD needs to work on ?20:25
gabrielhurleydid we get any answers around docs/ci/etc?20:25
markmcthanks hub_cap and co20:25
gabrielhurley(did I just miss that?)20:25
markmcfor the record, you guys seem to have a tonne right20:25
demorrisapologies, but I need some help here. I am still struggling with why a Heat plan, or use of Heat needs to be a pre-condition for incubation or graduation..20:26
hub_capgabrielhurley: i dont think we have talked bout it20:26
markmcalso for the record, I did a quick license check - all code is apache licensed20:26
dolphmgiven that rax / hp have products based on this, how flexible is the api at this point?20:26
ttx#info RD should investigate and document transition to use Heat if it were to be accepted in incubation20:26
markmcand deps check - nothing new, except factory_boy which looks fine20:26
russellbyeah, love the usage of openstack processes20:26
gabrielhurleyhub_cap: gothca. annegentle asked about it but it fell through the cracks.20:26
russellbalso happy with the scope/fit question20:26
annegentlehub_cap: so you linked to a markdown API doc but I thought you were working on API docs that are more like the rest of OpenStack API docs?20:26
mordredthey're doing a good job on CI on stackforge, and are currently running third-party integration tests triggered by our gerrit20:26
markmchub_cap, do you intend to keep the rsdns client in tree?20:26
demorristo me, it is a matter of implementation on how we orchestrate the creation of database resources, clusters, etc...20:26
annegentleI've seen their stackforge work also and it's good.20:27
russellbdemorris: yes but the implementation *is* an important question that we do consider as criteria.20:27
hub_capdolphm: i say its flexible. worst case we can version and go20:27
russellbdemorris: it's not something to be dismissed as trivial and unimportant.20:27
mordredwe've got hooks for them in devstack/devstack-gate and know how to hook them in if they become incubated20:27
hub_capannegentle: we are, mike from rax has some that hes almost done with20:27
demorrisrussellb: agree, not trying to dismiss it20:27
vipulhub_cap, dolphm: yep, we can always version if drastic changes are needed20:27
annegentlehub_cap: one suggestion is to put a link to your github codebase on the wiki application page20:27
ttxdemorris: we want to avoid a project incubated realizing it needs to be completely rewritten to be integrated with other projects20:27
hub_capi pushed that out to give people an idea of whats going on20:27
demorrisstruggling to keep up with all the conversations20:27
hub_capannegentle: good call ill do that now20:27
ttxdemorris: so investigating that in advnace sounds snae20:27
hub_capdemorris: lol20:27
dolphmhub_cap: so, maintain backwards compatibility on further changes to v1?20:27
jcooleyrussellb: its flexible enough that rax uses straight mysql and hp uses percona.20:27
russellbjcooley: *nod*20:28
markmchub_cap, do you intend to keep the rsdns client in tree?20:28
hub_capdolphm: ya i think so20:28
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demorristtx: agree, I think some things got lost in translation for me20:28
annegentlehub_cap: your bug list seems fairly triaged, are you using test suites now?20:28
hub_capmarkmc: not if we can use a client that moniker has built for us :D20:28
dolphmhub_cap: i'm asking because i'm noticing what i'm hoping are bugs on the spec doc, rather than impl :)20:28
markmchub_cap, well, it seems odd for a project to carry something like that IMHO - would be good to move it out20:29
markwashI'd love to understand why we are pushing Heat for RD as well. . is it that RD is currently duplicating a lot of Heat functionality?20:29
gabrielhurleymarkwash: yes20:29
markmchub_cap, what in-guest distros do you currently support/use ?20:29
hub_capannegentle: im not sure what u mean wrt test suites20:29
annegentlehub_cap: how do you test now?20:29
shardymarkwash: yes, orchestration basically ;)20:29
hub_capahh, so we have unit and integration tests, the integration is done via jenkins that hp has put out20:29
markmcmarkwash, yes, dupication of instance management and the like - RD would use Heat as an implementation detail20:30
markwashso, is there a concern that this duplication is divisive?20:30
* hub_cap pulls the next question off the stack20:30
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mordredhub_cap: you guys still have proboscis in the tree? or are you totally on to testr yet?20:30
russellbhub_cap: can always come back and read scrollback to catch all the points raised20:30
* hub_cap will have to russellb ;)20:30
grapexmordred: The plan is to make proboscis run on testr so we can migrate.20:30
* markwash will definitely look more into the Heat question for himself, so we can move on20:30
mordredgrapex: that hurts my head20:31
hub_capdolphm: we dont have any bugs in the spec doc persay at present20:31
grapexmordred: Rather than drop the suite complete. However once we make it run testr, it should run everything fairly trivially the way other projects do and fit into the existing CI systems.20:31
mordredgrapex: great20:31
hub_capmarkmc: we support deb based currently, ubuntu/debian20:31
ttxhub_cap: what's the timeframe for that Heat adoption analysis ? trying to see if it's worth it keeping the incubation decision on the agenda for next week20:31
markmchub_cap, any plans for supporting other distros? any problems anticipated?20:31
hub_capi dont think its out of the question to say 1 wk20:31
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ttxhub_cap: post to openstack-dev when done20:32
hub_capmarkmc: woudl love to support rpm based, no problems there20:32
hub_capttx: roger20:32
hub_capok i _think_ i got everyones Qs... if u still have one fire or ping me20:32
markmcinterestingly, we didn't discuss the scope of the project20:32
* markmc thinks the scope is fine FWIW20:33
russellbmarkmc: +120:33
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ttxFine discussing it if that's an issue for anyone20:33
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ttxotherwise we'll just go to the next topic20:33
mikalWorks for me20:33
markwashI'm still a tiny bit concerned20:33
hub_capthx for your consideration peoples20:33
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ttxmarkwash: I don't like to see you concerned.20:34
demorrishub_cap: +120:34
hub_capmarkwash: we can chat about it if you'd like offline? or online if need be :D20:34
markwashbecause I would see the inclusiveness of its scope a prereq, but so far it seems like mostly promises and plans20:34
markwashall of which seem lovely20:34
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gabrielhurleymarkwash: what, you don't trust them? ;-)20:34
markwashwell, I don't trust anybody forward looking, so :-)20:34
hub_capya markwash?20:34
jgriffithhaha... we have to start somewhere20:34
ttxmarkwash: I definitely like the idea to be more database-agnostic... but so far it's just a plan, true20:34
markwashbut to me, honestly, if it fits the AWS bill of what DBaaS means, its probably right for our system20:35
jd__it's also something that can be proved during incubation20:35
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ttxMaybe they could also prepare a rationale as to why their architecture will also support other-SQL and NoSQL ?20:35
mordredagree on more agnostic. otoh, adding more backends is a "if someone cares" thing20:35
mordredsame as virt drivers20:36
ttxwithout forcing us to individually look into the code and figure it out20:36
gabrielhurleyyeah, wouldn't want to mandate more backends only to have them be abandoned after the POC20:36
mordredwe only added hyperv because someone showed up who wanted it20:36
russellbspeaking of AWS, i noticed that they have nosql as a separate service instead of all in one20:36
demorristtx: we have blueprints for the API that discuss how the API will be DB agnostic20:36
dolphmttx: that's why i'd like to see a proof of concept of a nosql impl, rather than more wording :)20:36
markwashrussellb: oh interesting20:36
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russellbwe should consider that before we just assume it would be a part of this20:36
dolphmrussellb: interesting, do you know why?20:36
mikalI like the idea of having fewer services20:36
russellbno, was hoping someone else did :)20:36
ttxdolphm: that sounds a bit harsh to mandate for the incubation decision. maybe something we could require for graduation ?20:36
dolphmhub_cap: ?20:36
russellbbut the APIs are quite different20:36
markwashI think I'd settle for some convincing proof that the api is compatible with other likely backends (Cassandra, say)20:36
mordredttx: ++20:37
russellbthe nosql aws service seems to have a lot more ... nosql-isms20:37
hub_capthat'd be my guess russellb, different apis...20:37
dolphmttx: agree20:37
mordredI don't personally think that reddwarf needs to support nosql20:37
annegentleI think scope is an important part of this whole process (incubation, graduation, core etc)20:37
* markmc is fine with the idea that nosql could be a separate service20:37
russellbyeah, but are different apis what we think is ideal?20:37
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russellbor not?20:37
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markmcif needs be20:37
mordredbecause I don't think that nosql and sql things really share much in the way of operational semantics20:37
ttxAt this point I want them to explain why it should be agnostic. Then we can put them against their words in the following months to prove it20:37
mordredsame as how swift and cinder are different20:37
markwashmordred: I'd be fine with that, so long as other agree that there might be room for a simliar NoSQL DBaaS project in OpenStack20:37
mordredbecause they are DIFFERENT20:37
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mordredmarkwash: I'd be totally open to that20:38
hub_capwe might find that it doesnt fit, then we focus more on relational :)20:38
markmcmarkwash, yes, there would be room20:38
russellbsame here, i think, based on what i've read so far20:38
markwashwell, cool20:38
markwashthat might seem more sane to me anyway20:38
demorrismarkwash: yes the topic around a distributed key-value store service similar to DynamoDB should be had20:38
ttxit shoudl AT LEAST be SQL-db-agnostic20:38
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russellbttx: +1 :)20:38
hub_capttx: def. weve strived for that so far.. maybe i do a postgres impl instead of redis/cassandra?20:39
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mordredbtw - I would like to congratulate the reddwarf team for not following the aws footsteps in forking mysql to do their work20:39
russellbyes, i think postgres may be a better next step20:39
hub_capto prove its db agnosting20:39
mordredor drizzle :)20:39
* mordred shuts up20:39
hub_capok so for next week, ill do the following, 1) have a postgres POC, 2) have diagrams / wiki for heat design in reddwarf20:39
hub_capare there other outstanding things i should bring ot the table?20:40
markwash#action markwash research the differences between AWS DBaaS offerings for sql-like and nosql-like20:40
markwashjust for my own notes20:40
ttxPersonally I'd be fine with you explaining why the code supports postgres rather than a POC, but a POC may actually be faster ;)20:40
* jd__ votes postgres20:40
hub_capi wonder markwash, do they not expose a "backend" to the serivce, like we would do w/ mongo or cassandra20:41
demorrismarkwash: would love to share my thoughts with you on this topic if you are up for it20:41
hub_capso their api has to have doc retrieval / storage etc20:41
ttxOK, unless there are still people concerned, I'd like to switch to next topic20:41
demorrishave studied this area in depth20:41
markwashdemorris: cool20:41
markwashttx: go for it20:41
hub_capthank you all again20:41
ttx#topic Discussion: What is our goal with OpenStack WRT API behavior and implementation20:41
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ttxjgriffith: Care to introduce this one ?20:41
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jgriffithttx: sure20:41
jgriffithSo the issue is a question of API and expected behaviors20:42
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jgriffithMy take has been that the end user should not know/care what the backend storage is for the most part20:42
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jgriffithThat means, when I say "cinder create-snapshot" I get a snapshot20:42
jgriffithfor example20:42
jcooleymarkwash: AWS has developed the offerings with different teams and different, optimized hardware environments... :)20:43
ttxI read the thread... I think our goal is not to let storage backend vendors differentiate with unique features. Our goal is to provide a set of basic API calls that reflects our view of "block storage as a service"... and have drivers for the backends which support that set20:43
jgriffithMy proposal is that the base/refernce implementation is just that20:43
mikalAlso, we need to remember that some deployments might have more than one vendor in them, and those need to feel consistent.20:43
jgriffithIf you can't meet that bar you are out20:43
jgriffithIf you want to exceed functionality that's fine20:44
jgriffithmikal: +100000020:44
markwashjgriffith: does the base/reference impl just clone on snapshot?20:44
jgriffithmikal: So that's my entire argument20:44
markmcclainremember this also not unique to storage.. networking has this issue too with API compliance20:44
jgriffithmarkwash: it can do whatever you want to implement20:44
ttxjgriffith: I'm actually not sure of the value to openstack of allowing differentioation in extensions, at least for the block storage project...20:44
jgriffithmarkwash: I don't care what the implementation looks like20:44
jd__jgriffith: how are you sure the reference implementation can cover all cases that another vendor might offer?20:44
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mikalWe see a similar problem with multiple hypervisors in nova too20:44
jgriffithmarkwash: all I care about is the end result20:44
jgriffithjd__: it can't20:44
ttxjgriffith: but I can be convinced otherwise I guess20:44
jgriffithttx: well... yes20:45
jgriffithttx: so there are mechanism via things like volume-types20:45
dolphmkeystone has this concern as well, considering how likely it is for someone to write their own identity driver / auth plugin / etc20:45
jgriffithttx: that covers this nicely20:45
jd__jgriffith: that sounds like a problem to me somehow :)20:45
jgriffithjd__: which?20:45
jgriffithjd__: ie what sounds like a problem?20:45
markwashjgriffith: rather than defining an api with a base/ref impl, I'd rather define it in terms of an api with independent testing. .20:46
jd__jgriffith: leveling down all drivers to your base implementation features?20:46
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markwashjgriffith: the significance being, I might be willing to cut corners for something that is "just" the base impl20:46
jgriffithjd__: markwash ok timeout20:46
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jgriffithyou're going the opposite direction20:46
* markwash pauses20:46
jgriffithI'm stating jus the opposite!20:46
gabrielhurleyI still say that the "core API" should not by definition include everything that the reference implementation supports.20:46
jgriffithThere are vendors that can't do features that the base offeres20:46
gabrielhurleycore API needs to look across implementations20:46
jgriffithand they're suggesting they shouldn't have to20:47
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jgriffithI'm stating that's not an option20:47
ttxjgriffith: +120:47
annegentlewhat gabrielhurley said about core API is the way I see the current state of affairs on Compute20:47
jgriffithannegentle: gabrielhurley I agree20:47
ttxthat sounds like the bare minimum to me20:47
jgriffithgabrielhurley: in fact that's my entire proposal in a nut shell really20:47
jd__jgriffith: ok, you mean raising NotImplemented isn't an option? so it's better to not have this driver basically?20:47
jgriffithjd__: exactly20:47
jgriffithjd__: LVM isn't exactly a super high bar to begin with20:48
mikalBut only for the "core api" right? Drivers can implement functionality over and above that?20:48
gabrielhurleymy only addendum to that is that any capability that's not core needs to be "discoverable".20:48
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markwashhigh bar or not, its a bottom-up description20:48
jgriffithmikal: over and above is fine20:48
gabrielhurleye.g. you can query /extensions and find out what's supported beyond the "core"20:48
mikalHow do I know what's core or not?20:48
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jgriffithmikal: as long as it doesn't change the API20:48
mordredI think that the core API needs to be suported by everything20:48
jgriffithmikal: I'll publish it20:48
jd__jgriffith: fair enough, I think the real question is where the bar is, this can be different for each case20:48
jgriffithmikal: or just look at the API today20:48
mordredor else it's a TERRIBLE user exprience20:48
gabrielhurleymordred: you say that as if this isn't already the case...20:49
ttxmordred: yes, what jgriffith proposes sounds like the bare minimum to me20:49
jgriffithmordred: so that's what I wanted mind share on20:49
mikalI think we implicitly do this in nova already to be honest20:49
markmcclainmordred: agreed20:49
jgriffithmikal: not ture20:49
mikali.e. all drivers can launch a VM, not all can do console output20:49
jgriffithwe're fixing it in nova20:49
jgriffithin the past IIRc there was a divergence20:49
jd__that's an interesting question even for Ceilometer since we have a few drivers lacking behind the API and not offering all features for now20:49
mordredand I don't think we should artificially keep a feature oout of core just becaus a vendor might no be able to keep up20:49
ttxdoes anyone disagree with jgriffith that drivers should implement the core set of API features or else be rejected ?20:49
markwashjgriffith: is this about raising NotImplemented for a given function, or raising NotImplemented for a given function depending on the inputs?20:49
mordredif it's a thing that's a fundametal feature20:50
mordredttx: yes20:50
jd__ttx: we agree since we kind-of decided the same thing during the summit for Ceilometer20:50
dolphmttx: yes20:50
mordredttx: otherwise they are pointless drivers20:50
jgriffithmarkwash: it's about you MUST implement the API20:50
jgriffithI don't give a rats butt how you do it20:50
dolphmthe identity api has to be able to raise 501 or 403 as an expected behavior, depending on driver / driver config20:50
ttxmordred: so you don't disagree with jgriffith20:50
ttxlooks like veryone agrees20:50
mordredttx: I find it highly unlikely that I disagree with anyone20:50
jgriffithmordred: haha!!!20:51
markwasha little lost actually20:51
hub_capmordred: i disagree w/ that statement20:51
ttxexcept my keyboard which I really need to change20:51
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jgriffithmarkwash: I can discuss after if you like?20:51
ttxlet me summarize20:51
jgriffithor anyone else for that matter20:51
markwashIt sounds like you're definition of API is implicitly defined such that NotImplemented is an invalid result20:51
ttx#info block storage drivers should implement the core set of API features or else be rejected20:51
jgriffithttx: bingo20:51
markwashbut I could define a core API where it was acceptable, and that would completely undermine this discussion20:52
jgriffithmarkwash: ?20:52
mordredmarkwash: what would you accomplish by doing that?20:52
ttxmarkwash: is that a rhetorical question ?20:52
mordredand what would the user experience be?20:52
markwashttx: yes, somewhat rhetorical20:53
jgriffithmarkwash: I wasn't suggesting a philosophical discussion, I'm just proposing that things like Horizon work20:53
markwashbut I"m trying to get down to the specific case in question20:53
gabrielhurleymarkwash: invalid for something that is "core", which should be a smaller subset of "essential" functionality. e.g. core are things that you would not reasonably build a service without (yes, that's still subject to interpretation, but at some point it has to be).20:53
jgriffithand that and end user get's the expected results regardless of what backend is in use20:53
markmcso, here's a thought - our core API could expose what optional features are available20:53
markmcbuild the concept of capabilities into the core API20:53
jgriffithmarkwash: horrid idea20:53
russellbmarkmc: yeah i think gabrielhurley has been begging for that :)20:53
gabrielhurleymarkmc: I think I've been saying that for 2 years... ;-)20:53
jgriffithmarkwash: if you're suggesting the dynamic API reading?20:53
markmcrather than only having optional features as extensions20:53
jgriffithmarkwash: perhaps I'm misunderstanding.. sorry20:54
markwashI think I'm on you all's side here, just trying to understand and consider a specific case20:54
ttxmarkmc: that's orthogonal to the discussion of requiring core APi featyures to be implemented in drivers20:54
gabrielhurleythe flipside is the possibility that *nothing* is "core" and *everything* is a capability that must be discoverable. but that makes for really messy clients and wonky UX's.20:54
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markmcttx, no, it's not - if the core API supported optional feature, drivers would not have to implement optional core features20:54
ttxmarkmc: you're talking about extra API features discovery, right ?20:54
* jgriffith thinks he's regretting bringing this up :)20:54
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ttxmarkmc: oh, I see20:55
jgriffithSo here's the thing, the cleanest way for what markmc is proposing (I think)20:55
jgriffithis via extensions...20:55
markmcjgriffith, well, would it be ridiculous for snapshots to be optional and for it to be discoverable via the API that a volume isn't snapshotable20:55
ttxmarkmc: I still think what jgriffith wants mindshare on is a good starting point20:55
jgriffithreason being there can be multiple backends that have different capabilities20:55
jd__gabrielhurley: sounds beautiful *and* scary :)20:55
markmcjgriffith, notice I say the capability is discoverable *per volume*20:56
dolphmi think consistent API behavior across drivers is much more important than whether a feature is wholly available or not -- a single call should mean the same thing to two different drivers, if both implement it20:56
markmcjgriffith, that's not an extension20:56
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jgriffithmarkmc: indeed and that's what's scary20:56
markwashdolphm: +120:56
jgriffithmarkmc: that volume can be anywhere on any backend20:56
markmcjgriffith, why?20:56
jgriffithand the end user has to get all the capabilities to know what he/she can/can't do20:56
markwashdolphm: I think that's my angle as well, much better put when you said it20:56
jgriffithand not only that, most SP's don't want their customers knowing the details20:56
gabrielhurleydolphm, markwash: that's the world of "everything must be discoverable", 'cuz otherwise I can't build a UI for that.20:56
markmcjgriffith, I'd say e.g. gabrielhurley would be perfectly happy if he could query per-volume whether a snapshot button should be enabled20:57
dolphmgabrielhurley: agree20:57
jgriffithmarkmc: ok... well for the record20:57
markwashgabrielhurley: that sounds like a sensible requirement20:57
jgriffithI violently object to that idea20:57
ttxRunning out of time... I think this discussion can safely move to the ML, as I'm not sure we need a cross-project TC call on this20:57
markmcjgriffith, wonderful :) the violence really helps :)20:57
jgriffithI think that completely kills the user experience20:57
gabrielhurleyI'd rather have what jgriffith proposes, but honestly I'll take either. What I can't take it the current state of affairs which is neither. :-D20:57
markwashwe need drinks for this :-)20:57
jgriffithmarkmc: I didn't mean that literally20:58
gabrielhurleymarkwash: I will happily debate this over drinks tomorrow ;-)20:58
mordredI would like for there to be a sane set of things that I don't have to query that I can count on to work20:58
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gabrielhurleymordred: +120:58
mordredfor things that may or may not work, I'd like to know how to know if they do or don't20:58
ttxjgriffith: I think what you propose is sane. Mark's option is sane too... but in the end whoever does it gets to decide ?20:58
markwashmordred: +1, but if not possible somehow, what dolph said20:58
mordredbut really, I want those things to be things I'm likely to not care about in the general case20:58
jgriffithttx: markmc works for me20:59
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gabrielhurleyttx: I think that's why we *do* need a TC decision on this. lol.20:59
ttxlast minute question...20:59
jgriffithI guess I'm not understanding the debate here20:59
jgriffithttx: sorry.. go ahead20:59
ttxshardy: you had a question about whether adding AutoScaling to Heat was a formal extension of scope that the TC should give its opinion on20:59
ttxquick answer from TC members ?20:59
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shardyttx: shall I just ping the ML since we're out of time?20:59
markmcthink it's worth the TC discussing at least20:59
gabrielhurley+1 on adding it20:59
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* markmc had always thought auto-scaling would be a separate service21:00
markmcbut maybe that's just because aws does it that way21:00
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ttxshardy: push to the ML and we'll discuss it next time21:00
shardyttx: will do21:00
mikalJuju does it in the same service IIRC21:00
mikalWhich makes sense to me21:00
ttxor consensus will just be reached on the ML, who knows21:00
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markmcthe general idea of the TC discussing the widening of scope of projects seems sane, anyway21:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Apr 30 21:01:10 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-04-30-20.02.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-04-30-20.02.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-04-30-20.02.log.html21:01
shardythe question is whether adding a new AS specific API allowing AS to be consumed without defining a heat stack is a broadening of scope21:01
shardyanyway, will mail ML later ;)21:01
* gabrielhurley goes to change things in launchpad so ttx will have to reload the page when he gets to Horizon...21:01
ttxmarkmc, dolphm, notmyname, jd__, markwash, jgriffith, russellb, shardy, gabrielhurley, markmcclain: still around ?21:01
russellbsir yes sir21:01
notmynamehere (for 30 minutes)21:01
* markwash here 21:01
ttxnotmyname: should be good21:02
mordredshardy: what's AS?21:02
ttx#startmeeting project21:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Apr 30 21:02:21 2013 UTC.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)"21:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'project'21:02
ttxmordred: autoscaling21:02
markmcmordred, auto scaling21:02
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting21:02
ttxBack to our regular schedule, let's see if it all fits in one hour :)21:02
shardymordred: AutoScaling21:03
ttxAmong other things we'll look into the published Havana plans and see how complete they are so far21:03
ttx#topic General stuff21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "General stuff (Meeting topic: project)"21:03
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ttxannegentle: You targeted today for the Grizzly doc release21:03
ttxannegentle: How are you doing so far ? Need help for anything urgent ?21:03
annegentlettx: yep. Should push through after/during this meeting. WOO.21:03
annegentlettx: infra has been super responsive21:04
ttxannegentle: so it's not just for me21:04
ttxapevec/markmc: Still planning to do a 2013.1.1 on May 9 ?21:05
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ttxjeblair/mordred, sdague/davidkranz: News from Infra/QA teams ?21:05
apevecttx,yes, plan is to have 2013.1.1 RC this week21:05
apevecttx, http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-stable-maint/2013-April/000479.html21:05
mordredttx: we'd like to get all of the projects migrated to testr sooner rather than later21:05
ttxapevec: help needed ? blockers ?21:05
mordredttx: so that it's an early cycle rather than late cycle thing21:06
apevecneed help reviewing proposed backports, always21:06
ttxmordred: how about filing h1 blueprints to cover for that... then hunt down assignees to do the work ?21:06
mordredbut I do not believe we have the manpower to do all the projects ourselves - it would be great if we could get projects to help out with that21:06
mordredttx: ok. I can do that21:06
apevecttx, I've seen some periodic stable jobs failing, e.g. https://jenkins.openstack.org/job/periodic-quantum-python26-stable-grizzly/21:07
mordredI might want to bug the ptls for suggestions of people21:07
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ttxmordred: that way you can ignore the projects that are already done21:07
* russellb is very thankful that you guys did it for nova21:07
mordredyay. I love ignoring nova and quantum21:07
ttxand i'll review the unassigned blueprints in this meeting anyway21:07
ttxso it won't fall in a blackhole (unless the PTL removes it from the list)21:07
shardymordred: we have testr migration patches about to land21:07
mordredshardy: you are magical ponies21:08
ttxapevec: ok, just raise a flag if you need more help to hit the proposed date21:08
dolphmttx: i assume only h1 bp's need assignee's at this point, correct?21:08
mordredttx: also, i started with the flake8 migration for everybody, and then wift pointed out that flake8 wasn't pinned in my patches - so I'll be going back to fix that21:08
ttxdolphm: would be great, but i won't yell until next week21:09
ttxmordred: ok21:09
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dolphmmordred: s/swift/wift/21:09
ttxanything else before we go project-specific ?21:09
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ttx#topic Oslo status21:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Oslo status (Meeting topic: project)"21:10
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ttxmarkmc: hi again.21:10
ttx#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oslo/havana21:10
markmc#info first Oslo project meeting this Friday, May 3rd at 1400 UTC - agenda is messaging work in Havana21:10
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markmc#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Oslo#Regular_Meeting_Schedule21:10
markmcright, blueprints21:11
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markmcI'm really just getting started massaging them21:11
ttxLooks like they were recently worked on21:11
markmcbut the list is the work I know is planned for havana21:11
markmcrecently? really?21:11
* markmc looks innocent21:11
ttxrpc-api-review depends on blueprint that is not in plan (no-kombu-default)21:11
markmcwhat milestones each should be targeted for is still fuzzy21:11
markmcttx, thanks will fix21:11
ttxotherwise looks good21:12
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markmclots of messaging work planned for havana21:12
ttxmarkmc: how complete is this list ?21:12
markmcunclear how realistic it is to get it done21:12
ttx50% ?21:12
markmcttx, there are a few unreviewed blueprints that I need to ping people about21:13
markmcmaybe another 3 or 4 to come, I'd say ... max21:13
ttxmarkmc: should be mostly done by next week ?21:13
* markmc will walk the plank otherwise21:13
russellbi may have one for pinning rpc versions on the client side ...21:13
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ttxyou won('t be alone on that plank I fear21:13
russellbnot sure if i filed that, it's filed for nova though21:13
markmcrussellb, interesting21:14
* markmc looks21:14
ttxAnything else on the oslo topic ?21:14
* markmc sees https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/rpc-support-for-objects too21:14
markmc#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/rpc-version-control21:14
markmc#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/rpc-support-for-objects21:14
russellbmarkmc: ah yes, that's something for nova, too21:14
markmcttx, nope21:14
ttxlooks like you need to hunt misplaced bps too :)21:14
ttx#topic Keystone status21:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Keystone status (Meeting topic: project)"21:15
ttxdolphm: o/21:15
russellbmisplaced blueprints = my fault21:15
ttx#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/havana21:15
ttxlock-user is not in series goal while targeted to a series milestone -- should I add it ?21:15
dolphmttx: hmm, i'd rather untarget the milestone21:16
ttxdolphm: will do. want me to set status for inherited-domain-roles pagination-backend-support and keystone-performance-benchmark to "Not started" ?21:17
dolphmplease do21:17
ttxwill do21:17
ttxLooks good otherwise21:17
ttxAnything more about Keystone ?21:17
dolphmwe'll probably add a couple more ldap-related bp's in the next week, but that's it21:18
dolphmtarget, not create21:18
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ttxcool. we'll probably focus on havana-1 starting next week21:18
ttx#topic Ceilometer status21:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Ceilometer status (Meeting topic: project)"21:18
ttxjd__: o/21:18
ttx#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ceilometer/havana21:18
jd__all good :-)21:18
ttxYou have 38 blueprints in there, how complete is that ?21:19
jd__I think we've most of our blueprints ready now21:19
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ttxjd__: General rule: you should set a priority for everything, and a delivery status ("Not started" is way better than "Unknown")21:19
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ttxIdeally you should also have an assignee and a target milestone for everything, so that we have a better idea of who does what and when21:19
jd__ttx: yep, I need to work on that21:20
ttxThings without an assignee or a deadline generally tend to not get done21:20
jd__finding an assignee for everything is going to be tricky at this time I think21:20
jd__ttx: ack21:20
ttxassignees should at least be set for the next milestone21:20
ttxRemember you can run ttx.py from https://github.com/ttx/bp-issues to detect issues with the published plan21:20
jd__ttx: didn't know, will look into that, thanks :)21:20
ttxalarming-threshold-evaluation-worker is marked obsolete, can I remove it from the series goal ?21:21
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jd__ttx: yep21:21
ttxAnother general rule is that a blueprint should not depend on blueprints with lower priority21:21
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ttxYour "alarming" blueprint (High) depends on Medium/Low blueprints -- that should probably be adjusted21:21
ttxThat's all I had21:22
ttxQuestions on Ceilometer ?21:22
ttx#topic Swift status21:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Swift status (Meeting topic: project)"21:22
ttxnotmyname: o/21:23
notmynamettx: I'm guessing you have the same comments for me as for jd__? :-)21:23
ttxHow is 1.8.1 progressing ?21:23
ttxnotmyname: well, i would certainly welcome a bit more priority setting, yes :)21:23
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notmynamethe major thing for 1.8.1 is finishing global clusters. that front is moving well, I think21:23
ttxbut prio is only really useful when you have a lot of blueprints21:23
ttxif it's just 1-5, not that much21:24
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/swift/+milestone/1.8.121:24
ttxAny rough idea of when it's likely to be completed ?21:24
notmynamenot yet21:24
ttxOK then21:25
ttxAnything more on Swift ?21:25
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ttxThanks for posting that general havana overview btw21:25
notmynameyou're welcome21:25
notmynameI'd love to see work (and help) on those fronts21:25
notmynameover the next few months21:25
ttxOther PTLs should probably also post a general havana roadmap overview when they are done filing bPs21:25
notmynameour first swift meeting post summit is tomorrow21:25
ttxnotmyname: anything else ?21:26
notmynamenope. questions?21:26
ttx#topic Glance status21:26
*** openstack changes topic to "Glance status (Meeting topic: project)"21:26
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ttxmarkwash: o/21:26
ttx#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/glance/havana21:27
markwashI've been doing some quick fixes there after rerunning your script21:27
markwashmay want to reload21:27
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ttxyou have a number of blueprints in the "proposed" list @21:27
ttxYou should probably review those and accept/reject them appropriately21:27
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markwashttx: definitely, thanks for the link21:28
ttxinherited-image-property-support is probably off, since it's marked obsolete21:28
ttxgridfs-store has been implemented and therefore should probably be accepted ?21:28
ttxI'll let you go through it :)21:28
ttxmarkwash: How complete is that list (accepted + proposed) ?21:29
ttxdoe that reflect the summit outcomes ?21:29
markwashnot entirely21:29
markwashfor one, we need to break out and further discuss the upload/download workflow21:29
ttxthink the list should be good by next week ?21:29
markwashI hope so. .21:29
ttxall marks on the plank21:29
* markwash struggles with launchapad21:30
markwashwe've had glance team meetings to go through the bps to get a sense21:30
ttxmarkwash: feel free to hit me with questions21:30
markwashthe glance team is taking a pretty hands on approach to bp management21:30
markwashwhich is making the process a bit slower, but hopefully the outcome will be better because of it21:30
markwashby next week we should be in good shape, at least for H121:30
ttxsounds good21:30
ttxAnything more on Glance ?21:30
markwashttx: I will definitely ask you some questions afterwards21:30
markwashnot from me, thanks21:31
ttx#topic Quantum status21:31
*** openstack changes topic to "Quantum status (Meeting topic: project)"21:31
ttxmarkmcclain: hi!21:31
ttx#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/quantum/havana21:31
ttx20 blueprints in... and 30+ proposed @ https://blueprints.launchpad.net/quantum/havana/+setgoals21:31
ttxSo this is still work in progress, I guess :)21:32
markmcclainyep :)21:32
ttxWho is working on quantum-api-wadl ? It's in progress and targeted to havana-1...21:32
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markmcclainAlex Xu was working on it21:33
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markmcclainit was working carried over from Grizzly21:33
ttxok, maybe assign him to it21:33
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ttxWhen do you think you'll have a Havana plan that matches your current knowledge of the plans that everyone showed up at summit ?21:33
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markmcclainI set a final deadline of Friday.. so should have everything in for next week21:34
ttxmarkmcclain: awesome21:34
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ttxmarkmcclain: making progress on that new code name ?21:34
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russellbrandom codename idea: Tantrum21:35
* russellb thinks of network traffic flying around like a digital temper tantrum21:35
ttxAnything else on Quantum ?21:35
markmcclainstill working on it.. none of the names have really excited anyone21:36
ttx#topic Cinder status21:36
*** openstack changes topic to "Cinder status (Meeting topic: project)"21:36
ttxjgriffith: o/21:36
jgriffithhey there21:36
ttx#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/havana21:36
ttxStill have a lot to review in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/havana/+setgoals21:37
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ttxIn particular https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/+spec/scheduler-hints which is proposed for havana-121:37
jgriffithttx: that ones been updated21:37
jgriffithttx: just a minute ago21:37
jgriffithas well as a couple others on this list21:38
ttxhmm, it's still proposed21:38
ttxis LP eventually consistent ?21:38
ttxjgriffith: what did you update on it ?21:38
jgriffithttx: https://launchpad.net/cinder/+milestone/havana-121:38
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jgriffithttx: doh!21:38
ttxjgriffith: it needs to have the series goal set to "havana". Stupid LP doesn't link series to milestones21:39
ttxmy main gripe with it21:39
ttxAlso don't forget to set priorities for already-accepted stuff21:39
ttxjgriffith: How is your Havana plan coming along ? Expecting a lot more changes ?21:39
jgriffithttx: I think things are solidifying21:40
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jgriffithttx: this list is a pretty good summary of the summit21:40
ttxjgriffith: next week should be mostly good ?21:40
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jgriffithI don't expect many changes between now and then21:40
ttxOK. Anything more about Cinder ?21:40
ttx#topic Nova status21:41
*** openstack changes topic to "Nova status (Meeting topic: project)"21:41
ttxrussellb: o/21:41
ttx#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/havana21:41
ttxLooking quite good !21:41
russellbi've been working on this pretty aggressively21:41
ttxYou still have a lot in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/havana/+setgoals21:41
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russellbi'd say it's most of the way there, but i need to do another pass on summit stuff this week, so should be in good shape by next week21:41
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russellbin +setgoals, I've reviewed all of them21:42
russellbi dont want to approve any that are still there for one reason or another21:42
russellbi have some cleanup to do on blueprints where the milestone has been set, but they haven't been accepted into the havana series ...21:42
ttxyou could reject them. That will just unset the proposed series goal21:42
russellbthat quirk is annoying.21:42
russellbah ok, but they'll still show up in milestones right?  :(21:43
ttxah. uh. yes.21:43
russellbbut ok, yeah, will continue cleaning up21:43
ttxHow is the plan coming along ? A lot more work to do on it ?21:43
russellbnot too much more21:43
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russellbi think havana-1 is too aggressive right now21:44
russellband i need to do a pass on notes from last week to see what we've missed21:44
ttxwow, indeed :)21:44
russellbwill be done this week21:44
ttxwe'll review h1 next week21:44
ttxwill be a good time to postpone and retarget21:44
russellbnotes from summit, not last week21:44
ttxAny question on Nova ?21:44
ttxrussellb: once done would be great to have an email to -dev with the main Nova Havana themes21:45
russellbttx: good call21:45
ttxI know people really loved those in Grizzly21:45
ttx#topic Heat status21:45
russellbttx: was also thinking of including a list of stuff we've discussed as important/valuable, but with no known assignee21:45
*** openstack changes topic to "Heat status (Meeting topic: project)"21:45
ttxrussellb: yes, good stuff21:46
ttxshardy: hi, welcome !21:46
ttx#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/havana21:46
shardyttx: thanks :)21:46
ttxDon't forget to set target milestones to give an indication of when stuff is likely to land21:46
ttxShould I consider everything in "Unknown" status to be actually "Not started" ?21:47
shardyYep, planning to do that tomorrow after our meeting, need info from people21:47
ttx(i can fix it for you)21:47
shardyttx: I changed most to Not started a few mins ago21:47
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shardymaybe I missed some ;)21:47
ttxWill fix21:47
ttxalso instance-users has no priority21:47
ttxHow complete is that plan ? Reflecting the current known state ?21:48
shardyOk will fix instance-users21:48
shardyI think it's pretty close, I need to add a few sub-bps related to open-api-dsl, but otherwise nearly there I think21:48
ttxsounds good21:48
ttxQuestions about Heat ?21:48
ttx#topic Horizon status21:49
*** openstack changes topic to "Horizon status (Meeting topic: project)"21:49
ttxgabrielhurley: hey21:49
ttx#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/havana21:49
ttxSame here... Should I consider everything in "Unknown" status to be actually "Not started" ?21:49
gabrielhurleyI just set "not started" on everything that was "unknown" for you ;-)21:50
gabrielhurleylike, right just now21:50
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ttxlike JUST right now21:50
ttxCould you explain why https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/d3 is "essential" for the release ?21:50
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gabrielhurleyas in actually truly just this moment21:50
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gabrielhurleyttx: it's essential because it is replacing a number of one-offs and will be used to build several other blueprints in this release21:50
ttxsee, you get original questions :)21:50
gabrielhurleyIt must get done, and must be as soon as possible21:51
gabrielhurleythat makes it "essential" right?21:51
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gabrielhurleyalso, I love original questions :-)21:51
ttxyeah, and being targeted to h1 makes it not dangerous to me, so ok21:51
gabrielhurleyI've been through this a few times. I know how to make you happy. :-D21:51
* markwash studies21:52
ttxYou addressed all I had on my little notebook21:52
gabrielhurleyone thing I do want to point out21:52
gabrielhurleyI've got some interesting things I need to bring to the table with the larger community/TC in the next week regarding what we're doing with API versions, keystone's catalog, and the clients. The discussion started on the ML, but we need a path forward ASAP.21:52
russellbgabrielhurley: +121:53
russellbgabrielhurley: i like that topic21:53
gabrielhurleySo expect more from me on the ML. I'm aiming to have a proposal which the community can then implement across all the projects/clients21:53
ttxgabrielhurley: link to the thread ? I could add it to the meeting minutes21:53
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gabrielhurleyI'll have to find the link later21:54
gabrielhurleybut I'll get it to you21:54
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ttx#help please participate to the thread that Gabriel started on API versions discovery21:54
ttxAnything more on the Horizon ?21:54
ttxgabrielhurley: oh. How complete is that havana list at this point ?21:55
gabrielhurleyah, ttx: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-April/008127.html21:55
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-April/008127.html21:55
gabrielhurleyttx: the list is complete as I see it21:55
ttxawesome, first past the post21:55
gabrielhurleyit encompasses the themes for havana and everything talked aboutat the summit21:55
ttxLooks like we are done.. 5 min in advance. Easy. Room for at least two more integrated projects :)21:56
ttxAnything else, anyone ?21:56
russellbmordred: still want to tackle that?  ^^^21:57
matiuI'd like to know if anyone knows why that's stalled ..21:57
matiuand how could we get it moving again21:57
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russellbmatiu: let's catch up with mordred on that, can do it out of meeting21:57
ttxmatiu: you should ping mordred off-meeting and sync with russellb21:57
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russellbttx: jinx :)21:57
matiuwill do :)21:57
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"21:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Apr 30 21:58:03 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-04-30-21.02.html21:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-04-30-21.02.txt21:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-04-30-21.02.log.html21:58
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gabrielhurley#startmeeting horizon22:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Apr 30 22:00:43 2013 UTC.  The chair is gabrielhurley. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.22:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.22:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'horizon'22:00
gabrielhurley#topic overview22:00
*** openstack changes topic to "overview (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:00
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gabrielhurleyI'm pretty sure I change the name of this first topic every week...22:01
gabrielhurleyhello folks!22:01
gabrielhurleyLemme start off by saying I couldn't be mor pleased with how Havana is looking already!22:01
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gabrielhurleyWe've barely started and we already have two dozen bugs fixed, blueprints in code review, and a great-looking plan22:02
gabrielhurleythat's just fantastic22:02
gabrielhurleyI finished doing a first pass at the full Havan roadmap today22:02
gabrielhurleycheck out https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/havana22:03
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gabrielhurleyor any of the indvidual milestones22:03
gabrielhurleyI think that leads into the next topic22:03
gabrielhurley#topic blueprints and bugs22:03
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints and bugs (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:03
gabrielhurleyH1 has all it's blueprints assigned, so folks should just move forward on those22:03
gabrielhurleyand just 'cuz something may not be targeted to H1 doesn't mean you shouldn't work on it now22:04
gabrielhurleythe targets are rough measures of how much I think we can bite off in a set of time, and some idea of known blockers in other services, etc.22:04
gabrielhurleybut if you wanna work ahead I never mind bumping blueprints *up*22:04
gabrielhurleyFor my part, I discovered an interesting quandary working on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/api-capability-detection22:05
gabrielhurleywhich is that the keystone service catalog endpoints have hard-coded versions in them22:05
gabrielhurleywithin the next week I'll have a proposal out to the mailing list to remove all version and tenant info from the service catalog endpoints, and instead to have the clients be able to construct the appropriate endpoints based on what's returned by keystone and what you pass in.22:06
gabrielhurleyso, progress there is good, but won't be done this week22:06
gabrielhurleyin the interim I'm going to lay down some groundwork code for switching versions that'll hack around it22:06
gabrielhurleyI want to make sure all the v3 API work isn't blocked, so this'll be a stopgap measure22:06
gabrielhurleyI should have that up in the next week22:06
gabrielhurleywho else wants to discuss or report in on blueprints?22:07
david-lyleto be clear, the v2/v3 toggle will work across horizon and django_openstack_auth?22:07
gabrielhurleyokay. I'm not worried about any of the BPs this week so I won't call for specific updates.22:09
gabrielhurleyjust wanted to give people the opportunity in case anyone wanted to comment22:10
bradjonesI'll pitch in about d3 integration22:10
gabrielhurleygo for it22:10
bradjoneswe are making good progress on reworking the quota graphics22:10
bradjonesAm looking into displaying the usage summary as some sort of graph over time22:11
lcheng@gabrielhurlye: from openstack_auth, how can I determine the keystone version.. Are we going to explicitly set some parameter in settings file  to configure the KS version or I have to make a call on the api discovery function you're working on?22:11
gabrielhurleyvery cool. fwiw, I could see those taking up a lot less space by being made into vertical bar graphs or something...22:11
gabrielhurleyusage-over-time would also be awesome22:11
gabrielhurleyceilometer would help with that and there are future BPs to address that in more detail22:11
gabrielhurleylcheng: in the short term (like for a couple weeks here) it's gonna be a setting22:11
gabrielhurleyit will later depend on version discovery22:12
bradjoneswould it be a good idea to replace usage summary with graph or have it as an option to display either?22:12
gabrielhurleysee my comments about that above22:12
gabrielhurleybradjones: depends on the data source22:12
gabrielhurleyif you're pulling from ceilometer it probably has to be optional22:12
bradjonesok will look into it further once the quota summary is finalised22:12
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jpichbradjones: btw, there was a bug about consistency in the quota graphs, perhaps this can be tackled at the same time - https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/110246122:13
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1102461 in horizon "Quota Summary graphs should be consistent in styling" [Low,Confirmed]22:13
bradjonesjpich: I'll look into it22:13
gabrielhurleyanyone else with blueprint comments?22:15
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gabrielhurleybug-wise we're doing fine. there are a couple that need triage, but nothing that looks dangerous/needs exceptional comment on.22:16
gabrielhurley#topic open discussion22:16
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:16
gabrielhurleyOther things on people's minds?22:16
jpichGrizzly stable: amotoki had raised the point before the summit that there had been a lot of improvements in the translations after they were pulled into grizzly22:16
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jpichshould we open a bug to track this, is it possible to update the translations for a stable release?22:16
jpichIf yes it'd be cool to get it in for the first one22:17
dolphmgabrielhurley: make sure you ping me when you have unversioned catalog code published22:17
dolphmgabrielhurley: alternatively, i have a bunch of jumbled thoughts in my head on the topic if you'd like me to simply throw them at you22:17
gabrielhurleydolphm: gonna be a bit for *actual* code. I wanna get pseudo-code reviewed by the community first.22:17
gabrielhurleyfeel free to write 'em down and send 'em my way22:17
gabrielhurleyI don't think keystone needs to change *that* much, actually22:18
dolphmgabrielhurley: on that thread or off list?22:18
gabrielhurleyit's mostly gonna be changes in the clients and devstack22:18
gabrielhurleydolphm: that thread is good with me22:18
dolphmwill do22:18
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gabrielhurleyjpich: backporting the translations is fine with me22:18
gabrielhurleysame process as any other backport22:18
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jpichgabrielhurley: I don't think we have pulled the latest ones from Transifex though, since the update was made22:19
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gabrielhurleyit's not hard to do22:19
gabrielhurleypip install the transifex client22:20
gabrielhurleythere's already a transifex dotfile committed to the horizon repo22:20
jpichOk, I'll look into it then22:20
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gabrielhurleywell alright then22:25
gabrielhurleygood meeting folks22:25
gabrielhurleyhave a good week and keep up the good work!22:25
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"22:25
openstackMeeting ended Tue Apr 30 22:25:32 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:25
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-04-30-22.00.html22:25
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-04-30-22.00.txt22:25
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-04-30-22.00.log.html22:25
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david-lylethanks Gabriel22:26
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vkmcthanks :)22:27
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