Friday, 2013-05-03

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markmcdo we have peeps?14:00
markmccool, let's get going14:01
markmcsimo, russellb, yo14:01
markmc#startmeeting oslo14:01
openstackMeeting started Fri May  3 14:01:35 2013 UTC.  The chair is markmc. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: oslo)"14:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'oslo'14:01
markmcno, that's no what I meant :)14:01
markmcok, so the agenda today is to talk about messaging in havana14:02
markmcI'm figuring there are two major topics - the proposed new API and the message security work14:02
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* markmc just started gathering info in the etherpad above14:03
markmcanyone want to cover anything other than messaging today?14:03
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markmcok then14:04
markmcmessaging it is14:04
markmclet's start with the new API design14:04
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markmc#topic new messaging API design14:04
*** openstack changes topic to "new messaging API design (Meeting topic: oslo)"14:04
markmcI think we got through a tonne of stuff in the thread14:05
dhellmannI haven't had a chance to update that page with the results of the email thread. I'm going to try to get that done today.14:05
markmcok, great14:05
markmcI got back into it today14:05
markmcand pushed this:14:05
markmcI think there's a few things in there that'll make you happy dhellmann14:06
markmcno reference to cfg.CONF14:06
* dhellmann dances!14:06
markmctransport URLs14:06
markmcdispatcher stuff should be clearer14:06
markmcthere's something else14:06
markmcoh, yes14:06
dhellmanncool, dispatching was the part I was supposed to put in the wiki14:06
markmcmessaging.transport, messaging.target14:06
markmckinda forms a base messaging layer14:07
markmcindependent of RPC details14:07
markmcnow, there's no user-facing API for dealing with raw messages14:07
markmcbut at least the code is split that way14:07
dhellmannthat's good enough for me, for now14:07
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dhellmannshould we go ahead and post comments on github?14:07
* jd__ eyebrow raising14:07
simomarkmc: oh now I see why my stuff stopped working (no CONF etc..) :-)14:07
markmcI need to update the wiki page with how the design has changed a bit14:08
markmcjd__, whyso ?14:08
markmcsimo, don't follow?14:08
simomarkmc: with russellb we were discussing about having better initialization of rpc so that we can set things like 'source' name for sining14:08
markmcso, I could walk through the patch14:08
jd__markmc: good surprise you worked on this so quickly :)14:08
ewindischsimo: I believe this is mark's private repository,14:08
ewindischthis isn't upstream yet14:08
markmctalk to the changes etc.14:08
simoI currently have some not very nice global as there is no way to pass down info14:08
markmcor would people just prefer to go and poke at it in their own time?14:09
markmcjd__, ah, ok :)14:09
simoewindisch: yeah I realized too late after I typed the above :)14:09
markmcjd__, it's all just stubbed out for now14:09
markmcsimo, the new design should definitely help14:09
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markmcsimo, but it'd be interested in looking in detail later14:09
ewindischmarkmc: I still think the idea of a server is effectively broken as it pertains to a target14:10
markmcewindisch, I don't understand the statement, so elaborate14:10
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markmcdhellmann, comments in github, on the mailing list, wherever - all good14:11
markmcdhellmann, pull requests happily received too :)14:11
ewindischmarkmc: we don't have a "server" to send things through with ZeroMQ, but we could institute a different messaging domain of some sort.14:11
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ewindischfor instance, we can do messaging over a different port14:11
markmcewindisch, the "server" concept is abstracted away from the underlying transport14:11
* rustlebee appears late14:11
markmcwhen you invoke a method, you're invoking it on a server14:12
markmcor multiple servers14:12
markmcit is fundamentally a client/server API14:12
markmcit's abstract enough that the transport can handle that any way it makes sense14:12
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markmcthe client doesn't address a server14:12
ewindischmarkmc: oh, Target(server=) is specifica to sending to a host?14:13
markmcit addresses an (exchange, topic, namespace, topic) tuple14:13
markmcwhere there are a pool of servers listening14:13
markmcit can send direct to one of them by narrowing to14:13
markmc(exchange, topic, namespace, topic, server)14:13
ewindischI suppose that is confusing to me because RPCClient refers to host= on prepare()14:13
simomarkmc: can you give me an example of what that tuple would actually look like ? (why 2 topics for example?)14:14
markmcewindisch, thanks, that host reference is a bug - will fix14:14
markmcoh, there's an important caveat - no python interpretor has read these files yet :)14:14
markmcsimo, ok14:15
ewindischmarkmc: I still think peer is clearer, but I have no real complaint as long as we're consistent14:15
markmc(nova, scheduler, <null>, '1.0', 'server1')14:15
markmc(nova, compute, base, '1.5', 'server2')14:15
dhellmannwhy have both topic and namespace?14:15
markmcewindisch, they're fundamentally not peers14:15
markmcdhellmann, russell added it very recently14:16
dhellmannso that's in the existing api?14:16
markmcdhellmann, allows you to have multiple interfaces hanging off a topic14:16
simomarkmc: '1.0' IS A TOPIC NAME ?14:16
markmcdhellmann, his use case was having a "base" interface that all topics expose14:16
dhellmannyeah, I wasn't sure why that was a good idea14:16
simoops caps :/14:16
markmcsimo, sorry, no - it's a version14:16
ewindischmarkmc: I disagree? In the abstract, they are. In AMQP, they're peers communicating through a broker. In ZeroMQ they're directly communicating peers.14:16
dhellmannlike a ping()?14:16
markmcsimo, (exchange, topic, namespace, version)14:16
simook now it makes more sense14:17
simomarkmc: so you envision the ability foir the client to choose the message version too ?14:17
markmcewindisch, you're wrong - they can be peers at the transport level, not from the perspective of e.g. Nova calling a method on a compute node14:17
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markmcewindisch, in that case, the scheduler is a client and compute is a server14:17
simois this the eenvelope version or rpc version ?14:17
markmcewindisch, the roles can be reversed later14:17
markmcewindisch, but in terms of that call operation, there is a client and server14:17
dhellmannrustlebee: thanks14:18
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markmcsimo, rpc version, envelope version isn't exposed in the API14:18
markmcsimo, it's a transport implementation detail14:18
rustlebeedhellmann: that's how it's used so far ... every service has that served up, as well as its service specific api14:18
simook, sorry still making my way through some of this stuff14:18
markmcsimo, np14:18
ewindischagain, no complaint as long as we're consistent with the terminology we choose14:18
simomarkmc: I assume server is actually something like: ?14:19
dhellmannrustlebee: ok, I think I saw that review go past, but haven't had a chance to look at it in detail. Makes some sense, although I think we're bleeding dispatch abstractions into the caller.14:19
markmcsimo, server is a hostname14:19
markwashmarkmc: FWIW I'm thrilled at the new interface14:19
simomarkmc: without the type ?14:19
markmcsimo, doesn't have to be DNS resolvable though14:19
ewindischI need to look through this to see how cells are handled. I suppose via the tranport uri?14:19
markmcsimo, type? as in str?14:19
markwashmarkmc: and the code groks a lot better for me as well14:19
simoservice type14:19
markmcewindisch, yes, transport url14:19
rustlebeedhellmann: yeah, would be happy to hear your feedback.  i'm not tied to how it works ... if we change it, the sooner the better14:19
markmcsimo, that's the topic14:19
markmcmarkwash, thanks14:20
simomarkmc: so you keep them separate ok,14:20
* ttx appears later14:20
dhellmannrustlebee: well, I still think we should just define message types and have RPC callers indicate where to send a response, but I think I've lost that argument a few times so I'm no longer pushing it. :-)14:20
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markwashdhellmann: oh interesting14:21
flaper87dhellmann: I don't know what that argument was about14:21
dhellmannmarkmc: have you had a chance to look at tulip, and how this may or may not play well there?14:21
flaper87but sounds interesting14:21
markmcdhellmann, nope, would be happy to get a pointer and some thoughts on relevance14:22
dhellmannflaper87: clients shouldn't know which method in a server they're invoking. They should send a message asking for data or action, and the server should be able to dispatch that however it wants.14:22
rustlebeemarkmc: thanks a lot for driving this new API ... long needed, and looking really nice14:22
markmcrustlebee, thanks14:22
dhellmannmarkmc: I need to research more myself, but was hoping you had more time. I wonder, for example, if Listener should be iterable, though?14:23
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dhellmannthat may be a driver-level thing, rather than something the API needs to worry about14:23
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* dhellmann hopes to get rid of eventlet with the move to python 314:24
ewindischI do think we shouldn't continue to be tied to eventlet.14:24
markmcdhellmann, yeah, Listener could well be improved - I think the concept of the dispatcher saying "give me a message", then dispatching it and then saying "thanks I'm done with that message" is nice14:24
ewindischEventletRPCDispatcher seems the opposite of that, tying our API intimately with Eventlet14:24
jd__any move to designing the API to be asynchronous?14:24
dhellmannewindisch: the idea would be we could switch dispatchers without rewriting everything else14:25
rustlebeedhellmann: sounds like a pretty reasonable time to finally get that done ... especially if it's going to be baked into Python14:25
markwashewindisch: does it? it seems like the api is saying "you can replace this dispatcher with something equivalent"14:25
dhellmannand every driver wouldn't have eventlet stuff in it14:25
rustlebeedhellmann: kind of makes the appeal of looking into an alternative in the meantime much smaller ...14:25
dhellmannrustlebee: right on both counts, but trying to plan ahead to avoid major issues14:25
rustlebeedhellmann: sure14:25
markmcdhellmann, re: eventlet, that's totally why I've made it an explicit part of the API14:26
dhellmannmarkmc: yep14:26
markmcdhellmann, i.e. services can move to eventlet by adding a new dispatcher14:26
flaper87FWIW, makes totally sense to me14:26
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dhellmannis that Listener class used in the client and the server?14:26
markmcdhellmann, nope, just the server14:26
ewindischmarkmc: drivers themselves do tricks with eventlet. ZeroMQ for sure. In fact, the driver would probably be rewritten quite a bit to work with tulip.14:26
markmcewindisch, driver eventlet tricks will need to be similarly abstracted14:27
ewindischso that introduces a challenge as well… some of that might be solvable by recognizing where we're spawning threads and abstracting that out, preferably into common14:27
markmcok, that's 25 minutes of details ... got to move on14:27
dhellmannyeah, maybe the dispatcher needs to know about a class in the driver, either through convention or a plugin loader14:27
markmcthe thing I wanted to do a straw poll on was in the etherpad14:27
markmc"Two approaches to getting this merged when we're happy with the current design:"14:28
markmcthe first, incremental approach would be the way I'd usually prefer to do it14:28
markmcbut (and this is a big but) if we thought we could parallelize and get this done early enough in havana14:28
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markmcI could live with doing this in parallel with the old code base14:29
simomarkmc: this is effectively a parallel API14:29
simoright ?14:29
markmcso long as we do actually delete the old code base soon14:29
markmcsimo, parallel API is option (2) yeah14:29
flaper87I'm more for option 214:29
markmcsimo, and really this choice impacts the message security work than anything else14:29
simomarkmc: is there any chance you can change the old API to use the new one underneath ?14:29
simoor is that too hard ?14:29
ewindischmarkmc: in option #2, you'd fork the drivers?14:29
markmcsimo, that's option (1) I think14:29
markmcewindisch, yes14:30
flaper87seems like cleaner and with less risks14:30
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ewindischfor me, that seems like twice the amount of work in Havana.14:30
markmcsimo, oh, I see what you mean - no that's another option14:30
flaper87at the end, the old rpc would be removed anyway14:30
markmcewindisch, give an example of twice the amount of work?14:30
simomarkmc: that might be a way to get stuff initally in in parallel, test a few services with the new api14:30
simoand subvert all others with the wrapper14:31
simoand kill the orginal rpc de facto14:31
dhellmannis the goal to get all of the other projects using this by the end of H, or just to get it working by then?14:31
jd__didn't get any answer, so retrying: any move to designing the API to be asynchronous?14:31
simothen slowly convert services to the new api14:31
markmcsimo, I'm not too concerned about converting the services to the new API, it's more about implementing the drivers under the new API and such14:31
ewindischmarkmc: I arguably have a full release's worth of work to do on rpc-related stuff. I'll need to get those things into the old rpc driver. I'll also need them in the new driver14:31
markmcsimo, we couldn't support the old API with the new API14:31
simomarkmc: I am for whatever reduces the amount of time 2 implementations live in parallel14:31
dhellmannjd__: I think that's related to the discussion of dispatcher above. We're trying to abstract that out of the drivers. Do you want the public API to be async?14:32
ewindischbut I could move the matchmaker out into its own top-level oslo-incubator project and not duplicate that code14:32
markmcsimo, if we parallelized, I'd say the goal would be to get all the servers moved over by havana-214:32
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jd__dhellmann: yes14:32
ewindischwhich would make this all much easier for me14:32
simomarkmc: what are the risks here ?14:32
markmcewindisch, well, first - getting this done asap helps zmq more than most anything else14:32
markmcewindisch, so a bit of pain in the short term for zmq should help you in the long run14:32
dhellmannjd__: I'd be interested to see what that looks like14:32
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markmcewindisch, and if you have new zmq stuff to do in havana, and we do the parallel approach, just do it in the new API14:33
markmcewindisch, since the old one would be dead and gone by havana-214:33
simojd__: truly asynchronous APIs are really hard, what is the driver ?14:33
jd__dhellmann: I've some experience with this related to my years working on XCB, so I'd be happy to help, I think it may be interesting :)14:33
ewindischmarkmc: if the old one will be gone in havana-2 and we get the projects to consume it, then I'm okay with parallelizing it.14:33
markmcjd__, I'd be interested in ideas for sure14:34
markmcewindisch, cool14:34
ewindischI do see a lot more risk to that, though14:34
rustlebeedoes it need to be in tree?  a feature branch hacking the current API until it's ready?14:34
* mordred also raises eyebrows14:34
ewindisch(if we don't get it done by havana-2, or if the projects don't consume it)14:34
markmcwell, getting it done for havana-2 assumes we do actually parallelize the work14:34
mordredgah. sorry - responding to scrollback- forget I was scrolledback :)14:34
markmcso, that's what the list of tasks are for14:34
ewindischit sounds less like parallelizing the work and abandoning the old stuff14:34
markmcewindisch, saw what?14:35
markmcsay what, I mean?14:35
ewindisch*and more like abandoning14:35
markmcso you don't think this parallelizes the work of getting to the new API?14:35
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simomarkmc: I am thinking that if you cannot make a wrapper to use old coe with the new api that putting 2 in in parallel and converting quickly all services and finally ripping out the old interface would be the way to go14:36
markmcwhat I mean is, we can have multiple people sign up for the the tasks in the etherpad14:36
ewindischmarkmc: if we're removing the old rpc code in havana-2, I don't think we'll be doing much work on the old rpc code at all.14:36
markmcif we have enough people willing to help, then havana-2 is probably achievable14:36
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markwashre new ideas for the interface, all the ones mentioned have sounded cool, but if we want to make the switch in this release, we need to timebox the process of discussing/implementing other interface ideas to ASAP in havana14:36
markmcbut e.g. if I need to port each driver myself, then port each project, etc.14:36
simomarkmc: otherwise you need a flag day to change everything in one go and that may be painful14:36
markmchavana-2 is less likely14:36
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ewindischmarkmc: parallelizing the task list is another matter, perhaps I misunderstood your intention there.14:36
markmcand parallelizing the work isn't useful anyway14:36
simomarkmc: Is it too harsh to tell people: port your driver whithin day X or it will be ripped off ? :-)14:37
markmcsimo, well, the "beauty" of oslo-incubator's "managed copy and paste" approach is that incompatible changes don't need a flag day14:37
markmcsimo, heh14:37
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markmcok, anyone up for signing up to any of those tasks ?14:38
markmce.g. who'll port the rabbit, qpid and zmq drivers?14:38
simoah "beauty"  ... first time I hear ti in the context of copy&paste :)14:38
flaper87qpid +114:38
markmcsimo, "less ugly" - that's what the "managed" bit implies :)14:39
simomarkmc: so the message format is totally unchanged here ?14:39
markmcflaper87, cool14:39
markmcsimo, yes14:39
ewindischmarkmc: I'm obviously gonna lead porting zmq.14:39
markmcewindisch, great14:39
simomarkmc: oh well in that case I am ok either way given no flag day is necessary14:39
simomarkmc: ah except any new feature will be blocked14:39
simobecause you cannot import oslo-incubator into a service until it is converted14:40
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markmcmarkwash, re: tests - what I'd love if someone could take that github branch and start writing basic tests for the framework14:40
ewindischmarkmc: special interests for me will be ceilometer, quantum, and nova-cells.14:40
markmcmarkwash, maybe a fake driver would help14:40
markwashmarkmc: cloning now14:40
markmcsimo, yes14:40
markmcmarkwash, awesome14:40
flaper87markmc: forked14:40
rustlebeethere is a fake driver now14:40
markmcewindisch, that's a lot14:41
seagulls(flaper87 - you can count on me for expedited review and sounding board for qpid driver port)14:41
simomarkmc: gives incentive to port stuff though14:41
markmcI'd really like someone more familiar with cells to take on that14:41
ewindischmarkmc: I'm not saying I'd port them.14:41
simoso I am for it14:41
markmcewindisch, ok, that's what I'm asking about14:41
markwashmarkmc: which branch is it on your repo?14:41
flaper87seagulls: awesome, thanks14:41
ewindischmarkmc: I'm saying I'm going to be keeping an eye on them -- so I'll be a resource on them, but as you said, I'll be too busy to lead.14:41
markmcrustlebee, yeah, porting the fake driver could be the way to start14:42
markmcmarkwash, messaging14:42
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markmcok, great14:43
markmclet's assume we're going for option (2)14:43
* markwash has to catch a bus in 5 minutes, will see what he can get done on the train this morning14:43
ewindischshould we split out developer versus deployer docs?14:43
flaper87markmc: FWIW, I prefer option 214:43
markmcI won't block new features in openstack.common.rpc until we're more confident about getting this done for havana-214:43
markmcmarkwash, thanks14:43
markwashyes, I take a bus AND a train14:43
markmcswitching topics14:44
markmc#topic message security14:44
*** openstack changes topic to "message security (Meeting topic: oslo)"14:44
seagullsmarkmc: I'm leaning to 2.. frankly the argument that the drivers are going to go away anyways was the key winning point14:44
markmcseagulls, great14:44
markmcsimo, want to give us an update?14:44
* rustlebee is pumped to see this moving14:45
* markmc notes the reviews simo just pushed14:46
simomarkmc: sure14:46
simoso I have code that implements all the crypto described in the wiki page14:46
simoand I am cleaning up the 2 patches after gerrit complained a bit :)14:46
ewindischI've looked at the reviews. Considering how much discussion on this is still in progress, I'd like to see this abstracted a bit more.14:46
simothe patches have tests to verify all is in good working14:46
simoand the code is structured so that messaging is completely optional at this point14:47
simoewindisch: abstracted how/where ?14:47
ewindischsimo: such that a secure-messaging driver can be selected. There is a good chance we'll also push PKI.14:48
markmcewindisch, can be done later - it'll be hidden behind the public facing API14:49
simoewindisch: it should be easy to subclass SecureMessage14:49
simoas you can see it only offers 'encode' and 'decode'14:49
simoso the upper layer has no knowledge of what is being used14:49
ewindischmarkmc: true, but some of the config options that might be specific to the shared-key approach seem to be in __init__.py14:50
simoand the data needed is m passed in through 'metadata' which is just a dict14:50
simoewindisch: 2 options14:50
markmcewindisch, yes, we'd introduce a config option later to choose a different security driver - it's not an issue14:50
simo1. whether secure messaging is optional or required14:50
ewindischand errors note stuff like HMAC, etc..14:50
simothat is universal14:51
markmcewindisch, we have transport driver specific config options similarly14:51
simo2. keys and adding pki: type will be banal14:51
ewindischI'm not saying this needs a rewrite or anything. We might need to just sanitize it slightly14:51
markmclet's take it as a given we can abstract this further and add alternative drivers later14:51
rustlebeeall sounds like easy enough stuff to add if you actually did another driver at some point14:51
simoewindisch: there is a secureMessageException class14:51
simoyou just need to catch on that14:51
ewindischespecially since if we *do* change algorithms later (even for this implementation) we don't want to have to update all our docstrings, etc14:51
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simoand you'll extend it with PKI specific tests for PKI exceptions14:52
markmcewindisch, I want to move on - your point is taken14:52
ewindischwhen you think about translations, etc14:52
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markmcsimo, how much work is required on the keystone side?14:52
dhellmannhow does this fit in with the new API?14:52
simomarkmc: well technically it is just 2 REST calls14:52
simomarkmc: but also database is needed14:52
markmcdhellmann, good question - I don't think it's visible through the API14:52
simothe crypto is all in crypto already14:52
simoso I will probably just reuse it14:52
markmcsimo, ok14:53
simo*all in*14:53
dhellmannmarkmc: the set_service_name() and get_service_name() functions that operate on globals may need to be incorporated to take into account multiple listeners14:53
markmcsimo, are keystone folks on board with adding those?14:53
dhellmanneither that, or they go away14:53
simomarkmc: I will work on it starting today, but I have some travel in less than 10 days14:53
markmcsimo, would they be in the v3 API? so, you'd have to have that API enabled for this?14:53
simoso I might have it ready and tested by the end of may I think14:53
markmcsimo, ok14:53
simomarkmc: I am thinking we might want a separate endpoint for keyserver14:54
markmcdhellmann, ok, will look at that14:54
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markmcsimo, ah!14:54
simokeystone is just the project where it lives14:54
rustlebeei figured they would become arguements to client/server classes14:54
simobut we may want to be able to move it elsewhere14:54
rustlebeeand localized there14:54
simomarkmc: not set in stone yet though14:54
dhellmannrustlebee: the service name stuff?14:54
rustlebeedhellmann: yeah14:54
simomarkmc: adam said he needs to think about database upgrade procedures for example14:55
markmcrustlebee, or Target properties?14:55
dhellmannrustlebee: yeah, that makes sense -- I just wanted to point it out, since it's another global14:55
simomarkmc: but the code is well selfconatined so I think by the end of the month we'll have that settled too14:55
rustlebeedhellmann: indeed14:55
markmcsimo, excellent14:55
rustlebeere: keyserver specific endpoint ... makes sense, but also need to keep in mind that others int he community are working on a keyserver service14:55
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rustlebeeand i would expect them to want to expose that endpoint14:56
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rustlebeebut maybe it starts in keystone and moves there if/when that ever becomes a real thing14:56
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seagullssimo: the different endpoint thing makes a whole lot of sense... especially if we consider keystone's main domain different than the secure messaging domain. Allows for different deployment, implementation, etc. scenarios14:56
simorustlebee: key manager != key server14:56
seagullssimo: +1 on that14:56
simoyes that's the thinking14:57
markmcok, well that sounds like serious progress14:57
markmcnice work simo14:58
markmcone last topic14:58
simomaybe I'll call it KDC just to avoid confusion with key manager14:58
markmc#topic project meetings14:58
*** openstack changes topic to "project meetings (Meeting topic: oslo)"14:58
mordredwow. that sounds lke a kerberos thing14:58
markmcjust schedule it for every week?14:58
markmcor on demand if people have topics?14:58
simomordred: this design is very similar to kerberos ;-)14:58
dhellmannevery other week?14:58
mordredsimo: yes. :)14:58
markmcis this time really ok with everyone?14:58
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dhellmannworks for me14:58
seagullsthis time is awesome for me14:58
mordred++ (even though I was just lurking today)14:59
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ttxhaven't participated much to this one but I liked the time14:59
rustlebeeworks for me, i need to put it on my calendar14:59
ewindischwhat time is this in EST? :)14:59
simomarkmc: it's ok although on fri I try to not do meetings :)14:59
mordredsimo: I may have wondered why we don't just use kerberos and add a rest api...14:59
markmcsimo, same here :)14:59
ewindischthis worked really well for me in CEST, but this isn't my typical timezone...14:59
markmcmordred, hehe14:59
simomordred: I want to be able to get there, but I want something that works for Havana14:59
dhellmannewindisch: 10:00 AM14:59
simomordred: and we do not have the time to make that be real kerberos14:59
markmcok, great14:59
markmclet's wrap this up on time :)15:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"15:00
openstackMeeting ended Fri May  3 15:00:04 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:00
ewindischdhellmann: ah, not too bad.15:00
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markmcthanks everyone15:00
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noklzOMG HI GUYS20:50
noklzI LOVE YOU GUYS20:50
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TheRoninwow. that happened21:10
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noklzhi colin who isn't the colin i know22:15
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