Thursday, 2013-05-02

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jd__#startmeeting ceilometer15:00
openstackMeeting started Thu May  2 15:00:34 2013 UTC.  The chair is jd__. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer'15:00
jd__hi everyone15:00
jd__hey nijaba15:01
flwanghi jd__15:01
jd__hi flwang15:01
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jd__#topic Havana blueprint assignment15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Havana blueprint assignment (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:02
jd__I've finished organizing blueprints for havana, I hope15:02
jd__and we're supposed to have an assignee to each one15:02
jd__so if you feel one of them attractive, go ahead15:03
sandywalshI think we have some overlap between and (as discussed at the summit). I think the same structure can be used for both.15:03
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jd__sandywalsh: I don't think so, at least for now15:03
sandywalsh(on the sql side anyway)15:03
gordcanyone allowed to sign up for an unassigned bp?15:03
jd__sqlalchemy-metadata-query is going to be implemented on top of what we have *now*15:03
jd__gordc: I think so, otherwise tell me I'll assign15:04
sandywalshjd__, k15:04
dhellmannthe metadata query also needs to support samples that don't come from notifications15:04
llu-laptopI can take, though I might need some help from minjie_shen on HBase.15:04
gordccool, i'll have a look at them and see if anything catches me eye. :)15:04
jd__I've assigned myself to it because I don't think anyone is going to take it but I'll be happy to give it away15:04
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jd__llu-laptop: fair enough15:04
sandywalshdhellmann, I see the link from sample metadata -> event as been a weak link anyway (if there is an underlying event, great, otherwise, Null is valid)15:05
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sandywalsh and, was there a reason all the dependent bp's on were left unassigned for havana? Is it just because the umbrella BP is sufficient?15:06
dhellmannsandywalsh: yep15:06
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sandywalsh(yet some other sub-bp's for that umbrella bp were "approved")15:06
jd__sandywalsh: no, they should be set on havana15:06
jd__sandywalsh: but some are from nova, and I don't touch nova bps15:07
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jd__sandywalsh: if I missed one about Ceilometer, i'd be glad to fix :)15:07
sandywalshjd__, cool, yes, 1 or 2 were nova/olso15:07
jd__sandywalsh: yeah so you want to ask nova/oslo guys to change that :)15:07
sandywalshjd__, thanks, I'll have a quick peek at them again15:07
jd__sandywalsh: otherwise ttx will not be happy! :-)15:07
sandywalshjd__, I think they're all approved, but I'll double check15:07
jd__well anyway feel free to ask me about blueprints if needed15:09
jd__and to take any of them :)15:09
ttxI'm always happy.15:09
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jd__ttx: let me use you as a leverage ;-)15:09
jd__#topic Chair for next week meeting15:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Chair for next week meeting (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:10
jd__I think I won't be there for the next meeting15:10
jd__so I'd prefer to delegate the meeting run to be sure it runs15:10
jd__anyone up for the task?15:10
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sandywalshjd__, only one missing that I can see
jd__sandywalsh: fixing, thanks15:11
flwang@jd__, i have a question15:11
dhellmannjd__: I should be able to do it15:11
sandywalshttx should be dipped in bronze and placed at the entrance doors of the next summit :)15:12
flwangis it possible to add new blueprint into havana after it's almost settle down15:12
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jd__dhellmann: thanks!15:12
jd__flwang: yes, but likely only if you already have something nearly-implemented I'd say15:12
jd__#topic Open discussion15:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:13
flwanggot it, thanks15:13
jd__I'm out of topic so we can go back to bp or whatever you want15:13
dhellmannthere was a ML thread on rpc/messaging security that may have an impact on ceilometer15:13
jd__I tried to read the wiki page but I lost myself15:14
dhellmannI haven't been able to read all of it yet, but it was flagged by my "ceilometer" mail filter when mark mentioned us15:14
dhellmannif anyone knows about pki & ceilometer, maybe they can chime in?15:14
dhellmannalso we have close to 20 changes in the queue right now, so we could use some reviews15:15
* nijaba would be happy to followup on this15:15
jd__yeah, I'm definitely not an expert on this15:15
sandywalshit's an interesting problem ... we're soon going to be running into resellers that we need to audit for revenue purposes. It's like we'll be a downstream consumer of Ceilometer billing-related events. Need to be able to prevent forgeries.15:16
dhellmannnijaba: you'd be perfect, since the question of repudiability (sp?) came up15:16
jd__yeah, I'm back on reviews15:16
sandywalshdragondm, how's your pki?15:16
jd__dhellmann: lol@reputhingy15:16
nijaba#action nijaba to follow on message security thread and report next week15:16
dragondmI know a bit about it. I'll look throught the proposal15:16
dhellmannjd__: is there a french word for that? maybe it's easier to spell, even with the extra vowels?15:16
nijabadhellmann: spelling is right :)15:17
* dhellmann will not tempt fate by attempting *that* again15:17
nijabadhellmann: répudiabilité15:17
jd__dhellmann: non-répudiation15:17
jd__nijaba: I'm not sure répudiabilité exists actually in French?15:18
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jd__dhellmann: the RPC thread seems turning quite good too, right?15:18
llu-laptopnova scheduler had a meeting several days ago,, they're planning to expand the hostState and add some kind of plugin mechanism to do the polling.15:18
llu-laptopDo you guys think we should ask them to publish the hostState so we can collect those polled data?15:19
dhellmannjd__: I think we're making progress. I feel like we at least understand the requirements.15:19
sandywalshnijaba, jd__ that's impressive spelling15:19
dhellmannllu-laptop: "them"? "hostState"?15:19
jd__dhellmann: yeah, I'm kinda thrilled about the URL approach so far15:19
dhellmannllu-laptop:  oops, sorry, missed a message15:19
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jd__llu-laptop: I don't know, what would be in the host state we would care about?15:20
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dhellmann"collect all the data?"15:20
flwangdhellmann, are you talking about the host metrics?15:20
eglynnsorry, late arrival15:20
llu-laptopone obvious thing is the CPU utilization data15:20
n0anonot so much state as usage data, that's what might make sense to send to CM15:20
sandywalshllu-laptop, the compute node should publish this on a fanout queue and let the scheduler / CM consume it as needed (that was my initial design on that mechanism)15:21
dhellmannjd__: I'm not sure the url thing is actually going to help us, but we'll see.15:21
flwang@dhellmann, if yes, I have discussed that with jd__15:21
n0anosandywalsh, there was a suggestion to use something like pub-sub for just such a thing15:21
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sandywalshllu-laptop, otherwise, what's the advantage of getting it from the scheduler vs. the horse's mouth15:21
sandywalshn0ano, that's what the queues and event notifications are for. No need to reinvent the wheel.15:22
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jd__dhellmann: what would be your main concern about it?15:22
llu-laptopsandywalsh: RPC queue is what i'm talking about for 'publish'15:22
n0anosandywalsh, WFM, I don't care how we send the data just that it goes out from the host and others can pick it up15:22
sandywalshthere can be downstream pubsub mechanisms to distribute (like AtomHopper or anything)15:22
jd__llu-laptop: I agree these data are useful, not sure it's the best place to retrieve them though15:23
dhellmannjd__: I missed the first part of the thread, and didn't get the reference. I think we should get that data if we can, although sandywalsh has a point about the source15:23
sandywalshllu-laptop, n0ano agreed15:23
flwangdhellmann, we can also get them from host directly by implement some new pollsters15:24
sandywalshnow, what would be interesting for us is to see the top-10 Weighted Host options that are determined before a scheduling choice is made15:24
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sandywalshthat could be some *really* valuable information for making better decisions down the road15:24
jd__flwang: yeah, but we kinda don't want more pollsters :]15:24
flwangsandywalsh, yep, I have a simple list15:24
dhellmannflwang: true, though there's also the question of why collect the same data twice15:24
sandywalshbut trying to second guess the scheduler in CM doesn't make sense (since all the weighing and filtering functions are complex and live in the scheduler already)15:24
n0anothere was some discussion that data might be obtained from CM since CM is collecting data already but we don't want to make the scheduler dependent upon CM.15:25
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dhellmannthe scheduler folks don't want to depend on our agent (understandibly), but maybe we can get them to send messages we can collect15:25
sandywalshn0ano, +115:25
flwangdhellmann, yep, get them from MQ is another option15:25
n0anoconcensus seemed to be that we can potentially utilize CM as an option if it's available.15:25
n0anodhellmann, +115:25
sandywalshwhat would be valuable to the scheduler is some idea of what's coming ... are there 100 instances about to be built, etc.15:26
sandywalshCM could be useful for that (with Heat)15:26
dhellmannthat would mean having them use "messages" and not RPC calls or casts15:26
n0anosandywalsh, ?? - how does CM know that, I thought scheduler would know that before CM does15:26
eglynnnotifying intent to spin up instances, e.g. via autoscaling?15:26
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dhellmannheat might know that, but CM don't -- we will know an alarm tripped, but not what action that will cause15:27
eglynnCM wouldn't know that15:27
sandywalshn0ano, well, heat would know that there are more requests coming I would imaging ("things are heating up and I'm going to need more instances soon" , etc)15:27
n0anodhellmann, indeed, the model for this data is more UDP than TCP, dropping a message here and there is acceptable.15:27
sandywalsheglynn, yes, notifying intent15:27
dhellmannn0ano: real UDP, or message bus?15:27
n0anodhellmann, just an analogy, an unreliable message system is OK15:28
sandywalshscheduler already listens for fanout messages from the compute nodes. We could publish "intent" on a fanout queue too. Consume if desired.15:28
dhellmannn0ano: got it.15:28
sandywalshn0ano, fan out is TTL, which would work well15:28
eglynnsandywalsh: so autoscaling in heat would more likely scale up in dribs and drabs, as opposed to one big bang of 100 instances15:28
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eglynnsandywalsh: e.g. continue to scale up if CPU util alarm hasn't cleared15:29
n0anosandywalsh, a possibility but I would imagine we're looking at a second order effect at best, not something to make major scheduling decisions on15:29
sandywalsheglynn, gotcha ... I'm just spitballing here. Other than "how many scheduling requests do I have in my queue" ... I can't imagine getting much valuable data from the scheduler.15:29
eglynnyeah (for each individual autoscaling group I meant, but I guess maybe a big bang would be possible in the aggregate ...)15:30
sandywalsheglynn, yes, indeed15:30
sandywalshand since the scheduler is single threaded currently, the queue size would be valuable15:30
sandywalshbut we could get that from amqp directly15:30
sandywalshHeat: "the scheduler is busy, so a request for new instances are taking 10s before scheduling occurs" etc15:31
sandywalshagain, thinking out loud here :)15:32
eglynnyes that could be useful perhaps to feed into Heat's cooldown backoff15:32
* jd__ just understood this discussion after realizing what "horse's mouth" from sandywalsh meant15:32
sandywalshjd__, haha, sorry15:32
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eglynni.e. backoff less aggressively if there's an appreciable delay on the build queue15:33
jd__and I agree with what has been said :)15:33
sandywalsheglynn, +115:33
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sandywalsheglynn, otherwise what will happen is Heat will see the need for more and keep throwing resource requests at it, but the delay is in the scheduler15:33
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eglynnsandywalsh: true that15:34
eglynnnot sure how sophisticated/adaptive the AS cooldown logic is currently in Heat15:34
eglynnbut it certainly sounds like plausibly useful info to have on hand ...15:35
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jd__well, closing the meeting in a minute if nobody has anything to add today :)15:38
jd__ah I though you wanted to add 4515:39
nijabajust a countdown15:39
eglynnPTL pivilege ;)15:39
jd__#endmeeting kthxbye!15:39
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openstackMeeting ended Thu May  2 15:39:35 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:39
openstackMinutes (text):
nijabathanks jd15:39
jd__thanks everybody :)15:39
flwangthanks jd__15:39
nijabaanother fine meeting with the ceilometer team15:40
jd__see you next week for an awesome meeting run by the amazing dhellmann15:40
sandywalshthanks y'all! code code code!15:40
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dhellmannand review, review, review!15:40
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* jd__ reviewing :}15:40
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nijabajd enjoy your time off15:40
sandywalshah, right, will try to allocate time in the week to get that done.15:40
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jeblair#startmeeting test15:52
openstackMeeting started Thu May  2 15:52:38 2013 UTC.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:52
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'test'15:52
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openstackMinutes (text):
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hyakuheiIs bdpayne here?17:01
davidkranzAny one here for the qa meeting?17:03
davidkranzjaypipes: Around?17:04
jaypipes#startmeeting qa17:04
openstackMeeting started Thu May  2 17:04:27 2013 UTC.  The chair is jaypipes. Information about MeetBot at
davidkranz#startmeeting qa17:04
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:04
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'qa'17:04
openstackdavidkranz: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.17:04
jaypipesdavidkranz: you want to lead? go for it :)17:05
davidkranzAgenda at
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davidkranzBefore we get to that, I noticed in my recent stress submission that pep8 failed.17:05
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davidkranzThere are a bunch of stacktraces in pep8 runs for tempest even when jenkins says it is ok. ANy one know about that?17:06
jaypipesno, not I17:06
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davidkranzAlso, what do you run in a tempest dir to get all the stuff that jenkins is diong for the pep8 test?17:07
davidkranzI did './ -N -p' but that passes and jenkins is still failing pep8.17:08
jaypipesdavidkranz: looks like it failed, not succeeded... are you sure gerrit reported it a success?17:08
davidkranzjaypipes: Gerrit reported failure but I got success when I ran it before submitting.17:08
jaypipesdavidkranz: does -p in actually look in the stress/ directory though?17:08
davidkranzjaypipes: Ah, perhaps that is the problem. Maybe I have to add it to some config.17:09
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davidkranzLet's move on.17:10
davidkranzAny issues with reviews?17:10
jaypipesdavidkranz: I see this:17:10
jaypipesignore = E125,H302,H40417:10
jaypipesshow-source = True17:10
jaypipesexclude = .git,.venv,.tox,dist,doc,openstack,*egg17:10
jaypipesin tox.ini17:10
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jaypipesdavidkranz: so, AFAICT, tox -> flake8 should be picking up the stress/ directory... :(17:11
davidkranzjaypipes: Then I think "new_stress" would have been included. I will have to investigate more.17:11
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davidkranzDoes any one have any comments about stress tests?17:11
ravikumar_hpdavidkranz: Is it configurable parameters17:12
ravikumar_hpto run stress test?17:12
ravikumar_hplike time , # of VMs etc17:12
davidkranzravikumar_hp: It could be. I haven't gone there yet. Just the basic idea was for reactions to the approach.17:13
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davidkranzravikumar_hp: Right now you provide those options in each test script.17:13
davidkranzravikumar_hp: There could/should be a more general configuration mechanism.17:14
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davidkranz#topic Blueprints17:14
davidkranzI will create a blueprint for stress tests.17:15
davidkranzHas every one looked at the blueprints and claimed those to be worked on for Havana?17:15
afazekasdavidkranz: The stack traces probably caused by inspection or __import__ used by the "flake8".17:15
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davidkranzafazekas: Should I take this up with infra?17:16
ravikumar_hpdavidkranz: I marked milestones and claimed some for our team17:16
davidkranzravikumar_hp: Thanks.17:16
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afazekasdavidkranz: yes17:16
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davidkranzSean was planning to soon obsolete the blueprints that are not claimed. They can always be claimed later.17:17
davidkranzBut we wanted a manageable number to keep track of.17:18
afazekasdo we really need multiple blueprints for example for keystone v3 api ?17:19
davidkranzafazekas: They should be cleaned up.17:19
afazekasDo we really want blueprints just with  the list of test cases ?17:19
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davidkranzafazekas: It it will take more than a very small effort, then yes I think we do.17:20
davidkranzafazekas: Part of the purpose of blueprints is to make sure there is not duplication of effort.17:20
afazekasEven smaller effort if you  just send the patch :)17:20
davidkranzafazekas: Unless some one else sends it first.17:21
davidkranzIt only takes a minute to create a blueprint.17:21
davidkranzThere is effort in tracking blueprints though.17:21
afazekasThe test cases in a blueprint can be done by multiple person17:21
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davidkranzafazekas: True, but that should be coordinated by the blueprint assignee.17:22
davidkranzIt is work to keep track of blueprnits which brings up the next subject which was the idea to have a "PTL" for the QA project.17:22
afazekasHow the tempest bugs fits into the picture ?17:22
davidkranzafazekas: I think we are talking about a fairly traditional model for tracking bugs and features.17:23
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davidkranzafazekas: There is a gray area of course for a few missing test cases or something like that.17:23
davidkranzDoes any one have any thoughts about a "PTL"?17:24
davidkranzThe idea is to have some one take on ownership of tracking bugs and blueprints.17:24
davidkranzAnd coordinating suggestions for improvements to how we do things.17:25
davidkranzOK, anything else to discuss today?17:27
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jaypipesany word on CloudCafe?17:29
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afazekasjaypipes: Does it have more published  test cases ?17:30
jaypipesafazekas: not sure. hadn't last time I checked last Friday...17:30
jaypipeswas hoping to hear from dwalleck or SamDanes17:31
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afazekasWe should have some procedure for coopering on non-gating test tools anyway.17:32
afazekasFor example on test cases which expects multiple node17:33
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davidkranzafazekas: That is really a matter of multiple groups of people agreeing to use a common infrastructure.17:34
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davidkranzafazekas: The ci group is working on multiple node for jenkins.17:34
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jhennerdo you think it would be possible to add multinode to devstack?17:35
davidkranzmordred: ping17:35
jhennerI mean, would it be difficult to make devstack able to spawn vms for testing?17:36
davidkranzclarkb, fungi : Could one of you comment on the status of multi-node devstack in jenkins ^^^^^17:37
davidkranzGuess they are all busy now.17:38
davidkranzI'll ping them later and see if I can find something to send out to the qa list.17:38
giulivoone 'not in the agenda' question17:39
mordredsup davidkranz17:39
afazekasdavidkranz: thank you17:39
giulivoare there plans for inclusion/creation of tests revolving around heat/ceilometer ?17:39
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davidkranzmordred:  ^^^^ discussnio about multi-node in jenkins17:39
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mordredgreat. multi-node jenkins is something I'm quite keen on having17:39
fungidavidkranz: i don't think there's any major status updates on multi-node devstack, but i've not been directly involved17:39
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fungioh, mordred's here17:40
davidkranzmordred: Is the status or plan for this being tracked some where?17:40
mordredpleia2 is the main one working on that, but she's getting married right now17:40
mordredI believe so - lemme find the bug17:40
davidkranzgiulivo: This was discussed at the summit with the heat and ceilo folks. I had  a short IRC chat with heat the other day.17:41
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afazekasmordred: Is the currently planned the multi-node solution for spiting the test to multiple node, or to have multitude openstack cluster ?17:41
davidkranzgiulivo: I think they will ping us when they are ready to engage.17:41
mordredafazekas: whose are two different things17:42
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mordredafazekas: splitting the test to run portions of the tempest tests on different nodes is one thing that testr will be the first step in accomplishing17:42
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mordredafazekas: having the cloud against which tempest is running be installed on multi-nodes is a different thing17:42
mordredboth, I believe, are important - but have a different set of challenges. :)17:43
* mordred cant' find the CI bug for multi-node right now - it's in there somewhere, I'll ping you with it davidkranz when I find it17:44
davidkranzmordred: NP. Thanks.17:44
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* afazekas is considering creating a test runner which can work faster on a single node17:45
mordredI've also been having good chats with rainya about getting her infra guys hooked in with our infra guys, so hopefully that'll have some good results on our ability to more forward on some of these thigns17:45
mordredafazekas: that should be testr17:45
mordredI would imagine17:45
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mordrednova tests increased by 5x speed on my laptop when we moved to testr ... but it's not a straightforward move17:46
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mordredas I believe jaypipes will be more than happy to back me up on17:46
afazekasmordred: yes, but they CPU sensitive unittests17:46
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mordredafazekas: I'm just saying- before we go off making new test runners, let's finish the current test runner migratoin that we're working on17:47
mordredsince it's a lot of work, and there are more than one reason we want to accomplish the testr one17:47
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afazekasmordred: first we should place script in tempest which start the actually used runner with the actual directory structure17:49
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afazekasBoth will be changed soon17:49
mordredI'm confused by what you mean17:50
afazekas ,
afazekasNow we cannot do restructure and changing the gate script at the same time, with a single commit17:52
afazekasThe logic around  L223 should be in the tempest repo17:52
afazekasImplemented as a  ./ --gate17:52
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jaypipesafazekas: the gate does not use run_tests.sh17:56
jaypipesafazekas: it uses tox.ini17:56
afazekasit should use in the tempest case17:56
jaypipesafazekas: or calls nosetests directly17:56
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afazekasif we creating a venv we are not really using the recent python libraries17:56
jaypipesafazekas: no venv for tempest.17:57
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mordredso, I agree that the extra config of how nose is invoked there is a problem17:58
mordredis the restructure goig to put cli into tempest?17:59
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jaypipesmordred: it already is, AFAIK17:59
mordredk. weird. yeah - in _this_ case - I thnk a should probably be used17:59
mordredbut it should have big bold letters around it saying that it's a hack to solve historical issues18:00
mordredand will go away in the future once we've solvle them18:00
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mordredand that we all feel bad about it18:00
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bdpayne#startmeeting OpenStack Security Group18:00
openstackbdpayne: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.18:00
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openstackMinutes (text):
bdpayne#startmeeting OpenStack Security Group18:01
openstackMeeting started Thu May  2 18:01:20 2013 UTC.  The chair is bdpayne. Information about MeetBot at
jaypipesbdpayne: go for it.18:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:01
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group'18:01
mordredjaypipes, afazekas: with lines 217-233 basically handled by the new script18:01
bdpaynethanks, sorry that I jumped the gun there18:01
jaypipesno worries.18:01
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bdpaynegood morning OpenStack Security Group18:01
bdpayneI believe we may have some new people here today18:02
bdpaynelet's start with a role call18:02
bdpayneBryan Payne from Nebula here18:02
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lglendenLaura Glendenning from JHU/APL18:03
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zzsZhesen Zhang from NTT i3 here18:03
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bdpayneok, perhaps more will join as we go today18:04
bdpaynewelcome to zzs, I believe this is your first meeting with us18:05
bdpaynelet's start with an update on the hardening guide18:05
zzsbdpayne: yes, very glad to join the meeting18:05
bdpayne#topic Hardening Guide18:05
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hartsocksShawn Hartsock from VMware is here BTW.18:05
bdpayneah, hi hartsocks18:06
mtesauroMatt Tesauro from Rackspace is here18:06
bdpayneso we were originally aiming for the first week in June for the hardening guide18:06
malini1Malini Bhandaru from Intel. Greetings18:06
bdpaynedue to a conflict with the facilitator, we have shifted back to June 24-2818:06
bdpaynethat week is still tentative as we (re)lock in the physical location18:07
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bdpayneand work our a few more logistics18:07
bdpaynebut things are coming together18:07
bdpayneif you'd like to be involved in that effort, please drop me a line18:07
* hyakuhei is here now :)18:07
bdpaynewe might have another slot or two still available18:07
bdpaynebasically, the commitment would be to fly out to the Maryland / DC area for the full week and write lots of words :-)18:08
bdpaynealso… does anyone know of an illustrator that might be interested in helping?18:08
bdpaynewell, if a name comes to mind, please let me know18:09
hyakuheiIs there are role for someone east of the atlantic to do editing/proofing/commenting while the guys working on the guide recharge overnight in the states?18:09
bdpayneI can check with the facilitator on that one18:09
hyakuheiMight be a clunky idea, just throwing it out there.18:10
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bdpaynethe other person we'd love to find is a exemplar user for the guide… who can proof it, and help us understand the right tone / level of detail / etc18:10
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bdpaynein this case, this would be someone deploying openstack that is not a security export18:10
hyakuheiHeh, that one guy OpenStack is just right for.... I think that'll be a struggle18:11
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bdpayneany other questions / comments on the guide?18:11
malini1to be a writer, what qualifications does one need (other than flying out to MD)18:12
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malini1and "deep" openstack project knowledge or just general security18:12
bdpayneI'm looking for a mix of security experts and openstack experts18:12
hyakuheiObviously a good standard of written english is essential. As is broad experience securing or deploying openstack18:12
bdpayneideally people with both18:12
bdpayneyeah, and the ability to write excellent english18:13
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bdpayneideally with a demonstrated background (research papers, previous books, blog posts, etc)18:13
bdpaynewe're shooting for a group of 10-15 people18:14
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bdpayneok, I'll push ahead18:14
bdpayne#topic Core Project Improvements18:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Core Project Improvements (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:15
bdpayneSo I just wanted to let people know that Nebula has started down the path of putting lots of improvements into keystone18:15
bdpaynesecurity improvements, specifically18:15
hyakuheiThat's cool.18:15
bdpayneIdeally, OSSG would have people focused on each of the core projects18:15
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rellerrellerDo you have examples?18:16
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hyakuheiOne of the suggestions I was going to make was that the OSSG start a review of 'security' tagged issues in LP without patches against them and where we can, attempt to patch18:16
bdpaynerellerreller We have an embargoed bug report atm18:16
bdpayneAnd a long queue to work through of issues that we are fixing and/or sending upstream18:16
bdpaynethere's two approaches to take here18:17
bdpaynenot mutually exclusive at all18:17
bdpayne1) Watch and address things tagged as security18:17
bdpayneFor this, OpenStack can now tag both bugs and pull requests with a security impact tag18:17
bdpayneOSSG members should be watching for this (notification comes to the openstack-security list)18:18
bdpayneAnd actively reviewing, fixing, improving18:18
hyakuhei^ Which is already happening to some extent18:18
uvirtbothyakuhei: Error: "Which" is not a valid command.18:18
bdpayneyes, it is18:18
bdpaynebut we could always use more eyes and hands there18:19
hyakuheiAbsolutely, consider my interuption a '+1' :P18:19
bdpayne2) Get a team of people to focus on reviewing and improving code in the core projects18:19
bdpayne(I was just laughing at the bot)18:19
bdpaynethis is what Nebula is now doing with Keystone18:19
bdpayneI would encourage other people here that have security teams to coordinate by picking another core project and doing the same18:20
bdpayneWhat do you guys think… anyone where doing (1) or (2) already, or willing to start helping?18:20
hyakuheiI think that's a good idea. I've been reasonably involved in some Nova stuff recently but would need to engage with our tech leads to work out where we can help18:21
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malini1I  have been reviewing code, and am closely involved with key-manager, the interest there stemming from supporting object/volume encryption18:22
bdpaynesounds good18:22
hyakuheiSounds like a volunteer for Swift _and_ Cinder18:22
malini1the key manager can hold certificates, which would support encrypted rpc communication18:22
hyakuheiHeh, so encrypted RPC is a whole other (messy) conversation18:23
malini1secure rpc came up at the last design summit18:23
hyakuheia lots18:23
bdpaynehartsocks Would VMWare be able to support such reviews on the project formerly known as Quantum?18:23
malini1:-) yes, messy18:23
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bdpayneok, we can move forward.. let's discuss the RPC and key manager stuff… and another else going on right now18:24
bdpayne#topic Open Discussion18:24
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:24
bdpaynemalini1 any updates on the key manager work?18:24
hyakuheiI'm very concerned by the lack of attestation being discussed in any of the RPC conversations18:25
malini1we are going with Rackspace's cloudkeep project, "barbican"18:25
malini1more detailed blueprints have been developed18:26
hyakuheiLots of discussion regarding signing or encryption but little on how to ensure that the correct keys/certs are shared with the right parties.18:26
rellerrellerThey released an API today18:26
hyakuheiThat's exciting18:26
bdpayneAPI for?18:26
rellerrellerI believe it is on their wiki page, but I have not seen it yet.  I just saw an email about it.18:26
rellerrellerThe CloudKeep API18:26
malini1JHU-APL (John Hopkins advanced physics lab) folks are working on volume encryption, so first partners for integration18:27
bdpayneah, ok18:27
bdpayneso if the key manager stuff moving forward nicely?  or is further help needed from OSSG?18:27
rellerrellerI feel like the JHUAPL side is moving along nicely18:28
malini1first pass, ability to save a secret and retrieve it, access control via keystone18:28
malini1this is symmetric keys18:28
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malini1i would say key manager stuff moving along nicely,, goal is to have enough to support volume encryption by july 1818:29
bdpayneok, would love to stay posted here on the progress… I suspect lots of people are eager to use this functionality18:29
malini1that date is to apply for incubation and be part of a couple of H releases to qualify18:29
bdpaynehyakuhei anything needed from the group on the RPC discussions?  beyond what you mentioned above?18:29
malini1Rackspace has committed quite a few people and we have daily status meetings 10-30 mins long18:30
malini1is there is action18:30
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hyakuheiI'd like it if some of the APL folks could weigh in on the RPC stuff18:30
hyakuheiThere's some big picture elements that are getting missed right now I think18:31
lglendenI'll pull together some comments from people here18:31
malini1Let us pring the APL folks, Lawrence in particular, to meet NSA needs wants all communication between endpoints secure18:31
bdpayneexcellent, thanks18:31
malini1else man in the middle18:31
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bdpayneok, anything else for today?18:32
bdpaynewe're already a touch over time ;-)18:32
bdpayneok, thanks everyone!18:32
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"18:32
openstackMeeting ended Thu May  2 18:32:37 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:32
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harlowja#startmeeting OpenStack Orchestration Group19:59
openstackMeeting started Thu May  2 19:59:09 2013 UTC.  The chair is harlowja. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:59
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Orchestration Group)"19:59
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_orchestration_group'19:59
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harlowjahowdy all :)20:00
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harlowjaso i don't have much of an agenda, since this is the first time this meeting has been held in a long time20:01
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harlowjabut i was thinking it might be useful to talk about some of the primitivies we need for orchestration/workflow like stuff, that might be useful, i have ideas here and other ideas might be useful20:02
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changblwhat kind of primitives?20:03
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maoyi'm on another call. :(20:03
harlowja#topic workflow primitives20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "workflow primitives (Meeting topic: OpenStack Orchestration Group)"20:03
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harlowjaso primitivies in the fashion of things that are needed to accomplish workflows, like u could think of a task object as being one of those20:04
harlowjaa lock primitive could be another20:04
harlowjaand then workflow patterns that build ontop of tasks could be another20:05
harlowjaa task log could be another one20:05
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harlowjathe workflows that exist in nova could then be refactored to use said patterns (slowly but surely)20:06
harlowjaand then once refactored (or during refactoring) the workflows can be moved up to say conductor20:06
changbli see20:06
harlowja*for workflows that make sense*20:06
harlowjadoes that make sense? thoughts?20:06
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harlowjathe discussions happening right now on the ML are releated to all of this, so thats great that we have said discussions20:07
harlowjaand thanks changbl your paper was very nice reading last night20:07
changblno problem:)20:07
changblthere are some discussions about DB vs ZK on the mailing list,  seems to me these primitive are targeted for both right?20:08
harlowjaif possible that might be nice20:08
hub_capid think it should try to target both20:08
hub_capnot everyone will want zk as a hard req20:08
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harlowjai would almost say the task and workflows are not connected to the actually thing doing the workflow20:09
hub_capalthough it might not be "that easy"20:09
hub_cap+1 harlowja20:09
kebrayYes, +120:09
harlowjathe ML discussions are a little bit about the thing, which is also very important20:09
harlowjabut there are primitives and refactoring that could occur without knowing what the thing is (at this stage)20:09
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randallburtagreed. Like everything else, shouldn't that be pluggable?20:10
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hub_capheh, flag driven development20:10
harlowjarandallburt yes, i think so, its just connecting at the right layer of abstraction where both are possible, that may not be so bad20:10
harlowjathe right layer is always the tricky part :)20:11
hub_capmaybe even just target _no_ zk at first, get a rough pass done, and add the flare and fanfare in later?20:11
maoyi was planning to respond to the mailing list on zk vs db20:11
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changbldo we have any design or doc of which primitives we need?20:11
maoybut i guess i can say it here..20:12
harlowjahub_cap idk, i think if there are enough interested parties that we could do both, having 2 impls makes sure the layer of abstraction actually makes sense20:12
randallburtsorry, I'm late to the party. DB?20:12
randallburt+1 to multiple (at least 2) initially depending on interest20:12
harlowjachangbl i don't have a wiki yet on those, although i can start one if thats wanted20:12
hub_capokey harlowja... as long as 1 doesnt muck w/ the other in terms of design20:12
maoyi guess we are talking about a pluggable backend for a few primitives, one of which depends on zookeeper, the other one on database..20:12
hub_capi want to use zk, dont get me wrong, i just dont want a hard dep on it...20:13
harlowjahub_cap well thats where having 2 impls makes sure that u make it so they don't much, with 1 u get sloppy and usually expose the underlying stuff20:13
maoyhub_cap: agreed20:13
harlowja#action harlowja make primitivie wiki20:13
maoyi actually think a in-memory backend is more appropriate.20:14
hub_capharlowja: cant necessarily disagree there. +1 to making the wiki and outlining it well20:14
maoynot all backend needs to have HA, persistency, and all that fancy stuff20:14
adrian_ottohub_cap: I agree on the ZK dependency issue20:14
harlowjamaoy agreed, 3 impls makes the api abstraction even better :)20:14
randallburtdo I hear four?20:14
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maoyi'm not a big fan on db backend since it makes upgrading harder perhaps20:15
changbland more load on DB...20:15
maoychangbl: agree.20:15
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harlowjaagreed, but if we do it right, maybe we can have each path work (although i think there will be certain fundamental primitives that won't be easily possible with  a DB)20:16
maoymany cases where you need rollback doesn't really come from crashes. unexpected errors are more likely. even if we don't keep things persistent/HA, there are still quite some value.20:16
randallburtwell, in memory has issues as well around recovery and failover, but they are options that let someone devstack and watch it go for example20:16
hub_capthats almost why id like to try it w/o zk at first harlowja heh20:16
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adrian_ottorandallburt: the in-memory allows the implementor to take shortcuts around reliability. If we offer that, the implementation better be transactional.20:18
harlowjaso all seems good, i think there is agreed upon stuff that says we want primitives with some backends20:18
harlowja*backends >= 220:18
harlowjathats progress!20:18
maoyand one of the backends doesn't depend on zk. :)20:18
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hub_capya everyone will likely use the zk backend for real world, we know that ;)20:19
harlowjamaoy well both of them can't or thats just 1 zk backend :-P20:19
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harlowjaso very cool, was a piece i am working on, if others want to add in also, thats cool20:19
harlowjabut i'll write up a twiki with some more of this, and we can get the best primitive set possible, just i think we have to avoid getting to complex (since then we will not accomplish much)20:20
maoysince we are in nova, i'd also discuss which functions we want to put under this transactional workflow management20:20
hub_capharlowja: which _real_ example are u planning on tackling first (just curious, if its derailing, we can chat privately)20:20
harlowjamaoy hub_cap  your questions i think are similar :)20:20
hub_caphaha ya seems so20:21
kebrayharlowja, is your work direct in Nova or in reusable Oslo library code?20:21
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maoyi'd considering sth like migration/resize20:21
harlowjakebray i see no reason why it can't be put into oslo if we get the primitivies  right20:21
harlowja*and i would hope it does20:21
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kebrayk.. You know why I'm asking.  I think Heat will need this.20:21
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jaybuff1harlowja: have you looked at doing this without zookeeper?20:22
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kebrayNot necessarily for Havana… but, as stack templates become more complex.20:22
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harlowjajaybuff i've thought about it, but not a large part of my brain power was directed to that20:22
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harlowjamaoy hub_cap  so lets talk about the functions to tackle, the interesting goodies there :-p20:22
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harlowja#topic functions to attack!20:23
*** openstack changes topic to "functions to attack! (Meeting topic: OpenStack Orchestration Group)"20:23
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hub_capnice topic20:23
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jaybuffharlowja: we (me and mercer at Yahoo) did orchestration/workflow with gearbox ( and we didn't have any shared state20:23
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jaybuffwell, i guess that's not true, we had an sql database20:23
harlowjajaybuff agreed, gearman/gearbox might be possible20:23
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harlowjamaybe someday in the future, who knows :)20:24
harlowjaso back to the functions to attack question20:24
jaybuffsorry, didn't mean to derail20:24
hub_capi vote teh hardest most complex one first!20:24
harlowjaall cool jaybuff20:24
harlowjaso resize/migrate do fit into that path20:24
harlowja*as they are the most back and forth ones20:24
harlowjapre, post, .. stages20:25
hub_capwasnt there talk about a big code refactor for those tho?20:25
hub_capto make them more similar rather than super distinct20:25
harlowjayes, i think john from IBM and tiagi i believe are doing some stuff there20:25
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harlowjai'd like to allow them to use the same primititives that we want to move other functions to if possible, which is why having a nice primitive base would be useful20:26
harlowja*that would be my ideal*20:26
hub_capah ic20:26
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harlowjaso that may be whose working on those paths, although i don't know many details20:26
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hub_capthat might be hard for u to tackle since others are touching the code a good bit20:27
harlowjai do though think that before we alter functional paths that we need to make something like
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changblharlowja agree20:28
hub_capcouldnt hurt ;)20:28
harlowjai think we have to be pretty darn careful about knowing the current path before and after altering, else things may go crazy :)20:28
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harlowjaso hub_cap in the prototype that the ntt folks are working on, they have adjusted the run_instance path20:28
harlowja*as an example for the prototype*20:28
harlowjathat one is like the other big one behind resize/migrate20:29
hub_capheh ya thats what our flawless, test 99% of the ecosystem, tests are for right harlowja?20:29
hub_capya id put my bets on that one for a first run20:29
hub_capa instance failure to me, at startup, for a small bug20:29
harlowjahub_cap not for me :(20:29
hub_capis better than a resize failure causing downtime20:29
nsavinwhy not to start with some easy and more used in rl  like spawn new instance ? \20:29
harlowjafor those that are interested20:30
harlowjai am working with those guys to get that code up, at least so its reviewable and all that20:30
hub_capi cant help but think about wow when i see NovaOrc20:30
harlowjait could be the first stab at the spawn new instance workflow20:31
changblnsavin: i think it can be easily resolved with periodic checking/repairing20:31
maoyi think working on start-instance could wait for two reasons.20:31
harlowjamaoy to much change on a critical path?20:31
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maoyone: it's a code path that has been used a lot and debugged a lot, and on a critical path.20:31
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maoytwo: if start instance fails, the user has the choice to start another one, unlike resize/migrate20:32
maoyis there a blueprint for who's working on it?20:32
harlowjamaoy so dansmith has one, i think its called unified path to resizing/migration20:33
hub_capsee id think that since its been used/debugged a lot, there would be a good test harness around it.. making it easier to test :)20:33
harlowjahub_cap i am sorta in the same mind set, if it has all those features, then that means we can be pretty sure that we either screwed it up or not20:33
hub_capya.. to me, especially after the unification of migrations, there could be painful, subtle bugs20:33
hub_capand this might compound the problem... possibly?20:34
harlowjamaoy i understand your one, two, just thinking that if those code paths aren't being actively 'modified' that it might be a good time to attempt to rework at least pieces of it20:34
maoyhub_cap: isn't that the reason why we need txn orchestration to deal with unexpected bugs/problems?20:34
hub_capsure maoy, but not to introduce them durin the _first_ impl of it20:34
maoyharlowja hub_cap good pts20:35
harlowjamaoy i also think it helps reorganize the code into things like 'task objects' that are easier to understand, easier to review20:35
harlowjabut i can understand the 'intimitation' changing criticial paths can cause20:35
harlowja*which is why we have to tread carefully20:36
hub_capeither way, its likely gonna rip up whatever path you choose :)20:36
harlowjaalthough i'd like to get john/tiagi to work with us when they are doing resize/migrate so that we can share the same primtives ( i hope)20:36
hub_capim sure idempotency is not thought of in a 300+ line multi branch if stmt20:36
hub_capharlowja: thats not a bad idea20:37
harlowjahub_cap sadly u are right20:37
maoythe other problem i've been having is to not able to terminate/override previously running tasks that got stuck.20:37
harlowjamaoy so u mean cancellation or something different?20:37
maoyharlowja: on that line.20:37
maoyalong that line20:37
maoye.g. we could change the reboot API behavior to "cancel whatever you are running which likely is stuck and reboot it".20:38
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changblmaoy +120:38
harlowjamaoy as long its not say stuck on 'run_instance' right?20:38
maoyif it's too hard for the first step, something like "cancel the onging reboot and retry reboot"20:39
maoyharlowja: of coz. :)20:39
harlowjamaoy i totally agree, i put some of this up on my wiki, but feel free to add more ideas20:39
harlowjamaoy i think yours is almost more of preemption20:39
harlowjawhich could get complex quickly :)20:40
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harlowja*maybe add a premption section?20:40
maoyharlowja: ideally it's both preemption and cancellation i think.20:40
harlowjasure, they are releated20:41
maoyi think people aren't as scary if we mess with reboot logic20:41
harlowjamaoy that could be, do u think it would expose enough usefulness there?20:41
maoyif we rollback a run instance to delete a vm, but it turns out we shouldn't, then people could get scared..20:41
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changblmaoy agree20:42
kebrayharlowja:  are there additional agenda items?20:42
harlowjaso maoy  that could be an approach, maybe we can have a list of functions that we think we can tackle, what some of the issues with them might be (as u said, rolling back a runinstance flow deleting things)20:42
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harlowjakebray not really, sorta ad-hoc agenda that i am making up as we go :)20:42
hub_capthis will turn into a big FSM quickly talking about canncelations (not of the pasta kind)20:42
hub_capman i cant spell20:42
hub_capshoud we try to tackle restarts before we do cancellations?20:43
hub_capas in, task or service died, redo from X20:43
kebrayharlowja:   Ok.. wasn't sure if some of the brainstorming would be better moved to mailing list.   I have an item to propose:   Perhaps consider renaming this something other than Orchestration?20:43
nsavinhub_cap: yes, if task resumeable20:43
harlowjakebray sure sure, does that work with everyone, anyone want to voluneteer to start documenting the different workflows we could alter, and possibly the benefits/drawbacks of altering said workflow20:44
hub_capdef nsavin20:44
harlowjahaving said document would make it easy for others to start picking up those workflows as things to do20:44
harlowjai volunteer harlowja20:45
harlowja#action josh to start workflow path wiki :)20:45
hub_capharlowja: i volunteer to review20:45
hub_capplz send updates20:45
harlowjahub_cap thanks20:45
harlowja#topic the name of 'it'20:45
*** openstack changes topic to "the name of 'it' (Meeting topic: OpenStack Orchestration Group)"20:45
harlowjaso this is a interesting question20:46
kebraynaming proposal:  Task System Library, or Task Management library.  Workflow is broadly used in industry as a Business Process Management term, coordinating task execution across large disparate systems.  Orchestration is the purpose of Heat, which is different than Workflow and at a higher level than Task Management, which is something Heat could leverage to do Orchestration.20:46
nsavinharlowja: one good name already choosen unfort - "conductor" :D20:46
harlowjathere is conductor (right now with functionality for db-proxy), there is 'orchestrator', there is ...20:46
harlowjakebray did u type that all right now, u so quick ;)20:46
hub_capya conductor should be renamed to "db-on-behalf-of"20:46
hub_capharlowja: kebray types 800wpm :)20:46
kebray80wpm actually ;-)20:47
maoyhehe. English vocabulary is not enough!20:47
harlowjaso i think there is 2 things that could be named20:47
kebraybut I like the extra zero hub_cap gave me.20:47
harlowjathe base library (which forms in nova) - convection could be it?20:47
adrian_ottoWe need to drop the terminology of Orchestration20:47
harlowjabut i don't want to take over the heat name20:47
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hub_capim good at being...err giving... 0s20:48
harlowjaadrian_otto so i started calling stuff state management engines20:48
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harlowjabut thats not so sexy20:48
adrian_ottoyes, that's more accurate20:48
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hub_caphehe hoard20:48
maoyor task management engines..20:48
harlowjaconductor might be a useful name, as long as we can get some of the conductor guys to help us understand how this functionality might fit in there20:49
hub_capmanaged by the zookeeper20:49
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harlowjaTME for short, ha20:49
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maoythat reminds me another thing to discuss20:49
nsavintss! several backends for sure :)20:49
maoywhere does this TME run20:49
kebrayI like having Task somewhere in the name.. it reflects what is actually will handle.20:49
harlowjaah maoy  good question :)20:49
harlowjamaoy maybe that one can go on the ML?20:50
adrian_ottothe scope of execution needs at least 3 supported contexts:20:50
maoysure. but doesn't hurt to talk a bit here.20:50
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harlowjamaoy kk20:50
hub_caphow bout flow :)20:50
adrian_otto1) Within OpenStack, such as executing within Heat20:50
harlowja* i have visions of the insurance sales lady flow20:50
harlowjabut flow might not be so bad20:51
adrian_otto2) Within the task system in a limited control (like calling API services only)20:51
adrian_otto3) In a container, such as within a specified VM that the caller is authorized to use/create20:51
maoyflow sounds like network 5 tuple stuff'20:51
nsavintaskflow ? (so with word "Task" as well :) )20:51
hub_captaskflow is decent20:52
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maoynsavin: i like that.20:52
maoyso still tme?20:52
harlowjaadrian_otto sure, so there is what i would call the core primitive library that 1,2,3 would use, then there is the name of 2 (conductor, idk?)20:52
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hub_capok so i want to use taskflow in reddwarf20:52
harlowjahub_cap to bad, haha20:52
hub_capwe only have a few min left, but shoudl we maybe talk about makign it distinct from nova?20:53
adrian_ottohub_cap: yes you do20:53
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adrian_ottoadn heat will use it for sure, and I hear from at least one Cinder dev that they will use it.20:53
harlowjahub_cap i think that is where if we can get some thing into oslo that might help20:53
harlowjataskflow directory in oslo?20:53
hub_capid prefer to put it there to start if possible...20:53
harlowjabut i just worry that if we don't prove it first somewhere (nova?) that it might be a crappy library20:53
hub_capthen my team could help contribute to it easier20:54
harlowjahub_cap agreed20:54
hub_capwell every library in oslo starts out crappy heh20:54
hub_capthen it gets awesome20:54
harlowja*lets keep the trend20:54
hub_capwhen lots of groups use it20:54
hub_capor it totally rots20:54
harlowjahub_cap agreed, i can get markmc to see what he thinks20:54
maoyimo, for the very first baby step, if we could find one function in nova (e.g. migration, or reboot, whatever), convert the procedure to taskflow with log and rollback, with a in mem backend, runs locally on nova-compute, i'm happy20:54
kebrayIf there is enough mailing list support for it across-projects, I'm hopeful we can incubate straight in oslo.. how do we make that happen?20:54
randallburtwell the problem in the original change remains, so start in oslo and follow up with deps in nova and maybe heat20:54
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hub_capkebray: likely we talk to markmc is my guess20:55
harlowjamaoy that might be acceptable, except i know others reallly really want this to help elsewhere also20:55
harlowjaso much desire to do this20:55
changblmaoy +120:55
hub_capharlowja: it would be a _much_ easier sell to my team if it started in oslo20:55
maoyharlowja: i understand.. but it has to start frmo somewhere20:55
harlowjamaoy so i think to kebray hub_cap if it could start in oslo then it could gain immediate usage in 1+ projects20:56
hub_capadrian_otto: directed to me?20:56
harlowjainstead of just start in 1 and move to oslo20:56
adrian_ottois there no precedent for starting a new library in Oslo?20:56
harlowjai am not aware of one, but we are burning new ground here, so might as well20:56
hub_capnot really, the libs there started _from_ stuff thats was copy/pasta'd from > 1 project20:56
adrian_ottoI think that's where this belongs20:56
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harlowjai'd like to get as much usage as we can (it just gets better/more ripe with usage)20:57
harlowja*not rotten, ripe!20:57
hub_capheh +120:57
adrian_ottoI'm painfully aware that OpenStack does not have a clear starting point for things like this that are definitely general purpose utilities that multiple projects will consume20:57
harlowjaso can we start one?20:57
adrian_ottoWho is PTL for Oslo?20:57
hub_capmarkmc i beleive20:57
hub_capgod i cant spell20:57
harlowjai think its markmc (from redhat)20:57
adrian_ottois he present?20:58
hub_capnope hes not in the us20:58
harlowjahe's probably sleeping20:58
hub_caphe is offline most late aftn's20:58
adrian_ottook, let's reach out to him and request guidance.20:58
harlowja#action adrian_otto reach out to markmc20:58
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harlowjais that fine? :)20:58
maoyq: what other projects are you guys talking about?20:58
hub_capits official20:58
hub_capmaoy: reddwarf for one20:58
adrian_ottois it presumptuous to assume that the rest of this group thinks this should start in Oslo?20:58
hub_capresizes are complicated in reddwarf, they require nova + additional things to database configuration files, db restarts etc..20:59
maoyhub_cap: interesting. i haven't looked at it though.20:59
randallburtheat, nova, possibly cinder iirc20:59
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devanandahaving missed almost all the meeting, imbw but taskflow sounds potentially interesting to ironic as well20:59
randallburtoh and reddwarf20:59
adrian_ottoCinder + Heat + Nova + RedDwarf + EventScheduler (assuming that becomes something)20:59
harlowjai am conflicted there a little, haha, i agree that it should be as general as possible, but if made to general, it might not be useful in any of the projects, but its hard to tell this early20:59
maoyif we have adovates from each project, i don't see problem at all starting this in Oslo20:59
hub_caphi devananda! are we stepping on your meeting?20:59
harlowjaso i will believe that we can do it, so i say might as well try :)20:59
devanandaeg, do x, y, and z before provisioning this node20:59
harlowjaoh crap20:59
devanandahub_cap: nope! i'm joining yours :)20:59
harlowjatimes up :)21:00
adrian_ottoI will email markmc21:00
harlowjaso can we get the potential people to speak up also from different projects21:00
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hub_capgood for u to end on time harlowja21:00
harlowjai think that will as maoy said def help21:00
russellbwill need to wrap this up21:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"21:00
openstackMeeting ended Thu May  2 21:00:42 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:00
russellbhave another meeting in here at 2100 UTC21:00
openstackMinutes (text):
harlowjaand thats how the cookie crumbles21:00
harlowja*great work all* :)21:01
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* russellb gives the room a minute to settle before starting the next one21:01
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russellb#startmeeting nova21:02
comstudoh hai21:02
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openstackMeeting started Thu May  2 21:02:15 2013 UTC.  The chair is russellb. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)"21:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova'21:02
russellbwell hello nova friends!21:02
russellbwho's around to chat?21:02
comstudwhy hello there21:02
senhuangrussellb: hello21:02
beagleswhatcha at21:03
russellbnice, lots of people21:03
russellb#topic blueprints21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: nova)"21:03
russellbWe have 52 blueprints on the havana roadmap21:03
russellbnice work!  thanks for everyone's help with getting this in shape21:03
russellbis there anything known to be missing from this list that people here are planning to work on?21:04
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mikalrussellb: the periodic tasks reworking is missing, I'll fix that21:04
russellbmikal: ah yes, i had that on my list to ask you about21:04
senhuangwe are working on a group api extension21:04
russellbsenhuang: group scheduling stuff?21:04
devanandarussellb: i just realized there's not actualy a BP for the nova->ironic split. should there be (assuming that is approved)?21:04
russellbsenhuang: vm-ensembles is on there ... i think?21:04
harlowjawell the taskflow stuff that i was going to help drive is missing, its still being talked about though21:04
mikalrussellb: I should probably add deferred instance file delete too21:05
russellbdevananda: yes21:05
senhuangrusellb: yes. gary, alex and i have discussed adding a new api extenstion to nova21:05
devanandak. /me creates it21:05
russellbdevananda: maybe just call the nova blueprint deprecate-baremetal-driver?21:05
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russellbmikal: indeed21:05
comstud52... 3 per week!21:05
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harlowjacomstud u can do it all21:05
cburgessmikal: Deffered instance file delete?21:05
senhuangrussellb: this api extension will allow users/tenants request a group of instances and specify the relationship among them21:05
russellbcomstud: we implemented a bit over 60 for grizzly21:05
mikalcburgess: mothballing and NFS instance storage both need to be able to defer deleting instance files21:06
russellbsenhuang: ok, so can we just update the description of for that?21:06
russellbsenhuang: also need an idea of when you guys think that will be ready for review/merging21:06
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russellbright now it's not on the havana list21:06
mikalcburgess: (look for the deferred instance delete heading)21:06
senhuangrussellb: we are planning to have a separate blue print21:06
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senhuangrussellb: will be ready next for review/comments21:06
russellbsenhuang: ok, well just ping me later once you have stuff ready.  they need to be assigned and have a target milestone set, and then i'll put it in the havana plan21:07
hartsocksHey, sorry I'm late.21:07
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russellbgoal was to have this as close to complete my this coming tuesday as we can21:07
senhuangrusellb: will do.21:07
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russellbquick notes for new blueprints if you're filing them ... set an assignee, set a target milestone (havana-1, 2, 3), and propose for the 'havana' series, then it goes into my queue to review21:07
harlowjarussellb for the task management stuff which is still under a little flux are u thinking to keep that out of the offical list for now?21:07
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russellbharlowja: yeah, still too much in flux on the plan there i think21:08
harlowjarussellb sounds fine21:08
russellbfor reference, we have 50 in the plan, but 175+ open21:08
russellbso lots still in discussion/planning/etc21:08
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comstuddansmith: looks good21:08
comstud+            if hasattr(self, get_attrname(name)):21:08
comstud+                primitive[name] = getattr(self, name)21:08
comstud^ bug there21:08
russellbcomstud: hey you!21:08
uvirtbotcomstud: Error: "bug" is not a valid command.21:08
comstudI thought this was window 421:09
senhuangrusellb: i think i am going to defer the cross projects (nova, cinder, quantum) blue print21:09
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russellbsenhuang: ok ... i think that one needs some more discussion / consensus building on the openstack-dev list21:09
russellbsenhuang: unassign from yourself if you're dropping it21:09
russellbor we can close it if you want21:09
senhuangrussellb: what i mean is to continue the discussions on the topic, but maybe move the actual design/implementation later21:10
russellbdevananda: approved/updated21:10
russellbsenhuang: ah ok, that's fine21:10
russellbsenhuang: so the blueprint is fine where it is then21:10
senhuangrussellb: yes21:10
russellbit's in the "we want to do this, but it's not clear how/when yet" state21:11
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senhuangrussellb: you are 100% right.21:11
senhuangrussellb: it is better to add the group scheduling support now21:11
russellbyeah that sounds good21:11
senhuangrussellb: which is pretty achievable within havana21:11
russellbso the next step in blueprint tracking after this week will be switching over to tracking progress against havana-121:12
russellbwe've done a great job populating the list, but havana-1 is way overloaded right now21:12
russellbit doesn't look realistic to get all of it completed/reviewed/merged21:12
russellbso some things are likely going to have to shift to havana-221:12
maoywho's leading the v3 API work?21:12
russellbif you're assigned to havana-1 stuff, make sure it's realistic (going to be ready quite soon), or update to havana-2 please21:12
russellbmaoy: cyeoh21:12
russellb#note Please file any remaining missing blueprints21:13
russellb#note Please verify that your milestone targets are realistic.  havana-1 is overloaded right now.21:13
russellbanything else on blueprints?21:13
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maoyfeel like we are missing a v3 API specification blueprint21:14
devanandarussellb: i'm going to pass 2 db-related BP's to boris-42, if you dont mind21:14
maoyexisting ones are implementations21:14
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russellbmaoy: there is a top level v3-api blueprint ... but good point that i don't think there's a specific one for the spec21:14
devanandadoubt i will have time to focus on those with the baremetal work21:14
russellbdevananda: sure, sounds good.  i saw some older ones assigned to you but wasn't sure on the status, so hadn't added them to the havana list21:15
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russellbmakes sense21:15
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devanandarussellb: yea, there are a few that no one is working on. i can unassign them21:15
russellb#note may need another blueprint for the v3 API spec.  maoy to follow up with cyeoh on this21:15
russellbdevananda: that would be good21:15
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russellbmakes it more claer that they're open for taking21:16
johnthetubaguyrussellb: a few of the xenapi are likley of havana, just need to determine the milestone21:16
russellbjohnthetubaguy: sounds good!  once a milestone is set, propose for the havana series and i'll take a look21:16
cyeohmaoy: by specification you mean the produced documentation for all the extensions like we currently have for v2?21:16
johnthetubaguyrussellb: will do, off to bug the Citrix guys tomorrow21:16
russellbcyeoh: something for ... that kind of thing (is what i interpreted it as)21:17
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russellbbut i guess it's not really ready to be published until we declare it "done"21:17
maoycyeoh: yeah things like
russellbwe need a period while it's in flux21:17
russellbmarked as beta/in progress/ or something21:17
johnthetubaguyis that likely to extend beyond havana?21:18
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cyeohrussellb, maoy: ok, because of the way it is produced I was thinking it was part of the tests work, but I'll ad a separate blueprint for it.21:18
russellbjohnthetubaguy: ideally not IMO21:18
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russellbcyeoh: you may be right ... doesn't hurt to have a checklist item for "is it documented" at the end21:19
johnthetubaguyrussellb: cool, seems like a good first goal21:19
maoycyeoh: one of the problem i have with v2 API spec is related to the Error state.21:19
russellbjohnthetubaguy: thanks for joining us late :)21:19
russellbok, let's catch up on more v3 API details out of meeting21:19
russellb#topic bugs21:19
*** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: nova)"21:19
russellbSo all this focus on new stuff has caused us to fall behind on bugs21:20
johnthetubaguyrussellb: no worries, just got back from a rehersal21:20
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mikal80 bugs!21:20
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hemnaI'm working on another fibre channel issue we found while doing load testing21:20
russellbI'm always open to ideas for ways to improve bug handling21:20
hemnaI should get that fixed tomorrow21:20
russellbfor now ... anyone up for a bug day?21:20
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russellbhemna: k21:20
mikalA bug day sounds like a good idea to me21:20
russellbwe could do a bug day tomorrow ...21:20
russellbor next week if that's better for some reason21:21
mikalHmmm, can we do a day that's not Saturday for me?21:21
* dansmith schedules vacation for tomorrow21:21
russellbmikal: ha, yes21:21
senhuangyep. i need a little bit more guidance on this bug
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1049249 in nova "Remove plugging of internal classes from configuration" [High,Confirmed]21:21
johnthetubaguy+1 for bug day, maybe next week though21:21
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cburgessbug day sounds like fun.21:21
russellbmikal: well really that would mean today is your bug day :)21:21
morganfainberg+1 for bug day here21:21
* cyeoh agrees with mikal ;-)21:21
morganfainbergbut yeah next week please ;)21:21
mikalI propose... Wednesday!21:21
mikalNo one does work on Wednesdays anyways21:21
russellbyeah, heads up would be nice21:21
russellbwednesday is good for me21:22
russellbcancel all your  meetings, people!21:22
russellbwe have cleanup to do!21:22
senhuangbiweekly bug day?21:22
russellb#note bug day proposed for Wednesday, May 821:22
mikalsenhuang: having something regular is a good idea IMHO21:22
russellbyeah i think so21:22
russellbmikal: interested in organizing such a thing?21:23
mikalAlso, my timezone gets all the easy bugs... :P21:23
russellbmikal: the one next week, and a regular one?21:23
mikalrussellb: sure, I shall send an email and so forth21:23
russellbmikal: yay21:23
senhuangmikal: great!21:23
russellbmikal: and have stat tracking ready to help motivate?  :-D21:23
russellbmy number is bigger than yours!  etc21:23
mikalrussellb: sure21:23
cburgessBiweekly or monthly21:23
johnthetubaguyhow regular? once a month?21:23
mikalrussellb: noting there might be bugs in the bug tracking21:23
dansmithwednesdays are my biggest meeting days,21:24
russellbmikal: patches welcome, right?21:24
russellbdansmith: weak!21:24
dansmithso cancelling them twice a month ain't gonna happen :)21:24
mikalrussellb: for sures21:24
dansmithbut I'm fine with bug days being on wednesdays otherwise :)21:24
russellbdansmith: or is it perfect?  you can work on bugs during meetings21:24
mikaldansmith: what's your manager's email address?21:24
beaglesis it weird that I like Monday's for that kind of thing?21:24
dansmithbeagles: yes, it's weird21:25
* russellb will make any day work ... but please not Tuesday21:25
driptontoo many holidays on Mondays to make them good for regularly scheduled real work21:25
beaglesgood point21:25
comstudI vote for Tuesday21:25
russellbcomstud: figures21:25
morganfainbergdripton: same problem with fridays… except also add in alcohol21:25
hemnammm beer21:25
mikalMy Monday is special to me... Its my US free day where I get actual work done.21:25
morganfainbergcomstud: lol21:26
russellbbeer is acceptable during work on bug day21:26
russellbwith moderation, of course.21:26
comstudSunday is when I get most of my extra work done.21:26
beagleseveryday is bug day then?21:26
driptonJust don't exceed the Ballmer Peak21:26
mikalAnyways, moving on...21:26
* beagles points to the beer=bug day correlation21:26
hartsocksbeagles: I honestly thought everyday *was* bug day…21:26
russellb#topic mikal going to work on organizing a regular scheduled bug day so we stay on track21:26
*** openstack changes topic to "mikal going to work on organizing a regular scheduled bug day so we stay on track (Meeting topic: nova)"21:26
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russellbwell, people get wrapped up in new development, or day job requirements21:27
russellbso "bug day" is trying to get everyone to set other things aside, all at the same time, so we can have some focused time together improving our bugs situation (triaging, fixing, etc)21:27
russellbthat's my take anyway21:27
hartsocksrussellb: thanks for explaining to the newb.21:28
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x295c390>21:28
russellb#note mikal going to work on organizing a regular scheduled bug day so we stay on track21:28
russellbnote, not topic!21:28
russellbmikal: anything else on bugs?21:28
russellbor anyone else21:28
senhuangcould you roll back? :P21:28
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russellbsenhuang: yeah i did #undo, it just doesn't actually fix the IRC channel topic, but it will fix the minutes21:29
harlowjarussellb sounds good, lets make it happen21:29
mikalrussellb: nup, that's me21:29
russellb#topic open discussion21:29
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: nova)"21:29
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dansmithI have something for open discussion21:29
russellbsome open discussion time, then we'll close out21:29
russellbdansmith: go!21:29
dansmithdespite comstud's best efforts, he did not paste a dansmith-authored bug into the middle of the meeting21:29
dansmiththat is all.21:29
* russellb slow claps21:30
* beagles snickers21:30
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comstuddansmith is correct.21:30
comstudSorry about that.21:30
dansmithokay sorry, real open discussion now :)21:30
comstudI am so used to finding dansmith-authored bugs that it just becomes too natural.21:31
dansmithouch :(21:31
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comstudI kid, I kid.21:31
russellbopen discussion is also the one time of week where it's acceptable to shamelessly plug your review21:31
comstudI just cannot read python.21:31
russellbcomstud: ORLY21:31
comstudthat's it.  i'm rewriting this all in C.21:32
russellbrandom thing i've been thinking about ... i'd like to start a wiki page that's a Nova Review Checklist21:32
morganfainbergcomstud: i was expecting erlang.21:32
lifelesscomstud: cool.21:32
russellbso we can start keeping a central list of things all reviewers should be looking for21:32
morganfainbergrussellb: that would be awesome21:32
cyeohmy shameless plug then: (first of the v3 API extension framework patches)21:33
russellbcyeoh: ooh good plug21:33
comstudrussellb: That would be helpful.21:33
johnthetubaguysounds good, like the RPC versioning21:33
russellbcomstud: yeah, figure it could help with consistency21:33
comstudI often find myself digging way down intot he list of reviews to try to find the most important ones21:33
comstud(not that I shouldn't be reviewing ALL OF THE THINGS, but)21:33
comstudsometimes I only have time to knock out a few.. and I want to make sure I'm hitting the high priority ones21:34
russellbha, apparently i had this idea a long time ago, but never really completed it21:34
beaglesyeah, some conventional wisdom would be cool.. great to point to for newbs, etc.21:34
russellbso, i'll try to start making that more useful, and post to openstack-dev when it's worth reading21:34
russellbothers certainly welcome to help get it going!21:34
russellb#note let's work on so that we have a more complete nova review checklist to help with review consistency!21:35
beaglesgot one item.. if you are not core and you notice that a review has been reviewed by 5 other non-core guys, find a core guy and tug their shirt-sleeve21:35
senhuangrussellb: that will be awesome for new developers like me21:35
russellb#note It will also help communicate expectations to patch submitters21:35
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beagles(a note for your wiki, that is)21:36
russellbbeagles: edit away!21:36
timellothat's interesting, specially for new reviewers and also for experienced ones... will make reviews more consistent21:36
russellbalrighty, any other topics?21:37
johnthetubaguynot today, might try roll up stuff from xenapi meeting next week, if there is anything pressing21:37
harlowjajust throwing this out there, for others to read the orchestration weekly is starting back up21:38
russellbi should probably start adding an agenda item for subteam reports21:38
harlowjalots of good stuff i think occuring there :)21:38
harlowjarussellb that'd be useful i think21:38
johnthetubaguyrussellb: +121:38
comstudrussellb: what's status of scheduler filters/weights -> entrypooints ?  we just dropping it completely for now?21:38
n0anoanyone interested in the scheduling sub-group we're just starting, the last irc log is here:
russellbcomstud: needs to get done ... nobody is doing it21:39
russellbcomstud: deadlock21:39
comstudrussellb: that works out well for me right now21:39
comstudbut was curious21:39
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russellbyeah, i don't see it on the radar21:39
russellbbut good point, i'll put that on my list of "things that need volunteers"21:39
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comstudI got the cells filt/weights coming up soon21:39
comstudjust adding a test or 321:39
russellbi'm going to do a big post soon on "what's in our havana plan" and "things we need help with"21:39
senhuanganyone interested in the idea of having scheduling make decision based on some external information?21:40
harlowjarussellb cool21:40
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russellbsenhuang: external?  like the weather?21:40
* russellb kids21:40
comstudrussellb,senhuang: reminds me.  i wanted to create a BP for conductor/scheduler changes.. that we should start with before other larger scheduler changes21:40
comstudand bring it up on list21:40
russellbcomstud: make it happen!21:40
senhuangrussellb: like some static topology configuration21:40
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alaskicomstud: I made a blueprint for that, but didn't bring it up to the list yet21:41
morganfainbergsenhuang: you mean something like a constraint system?21:41
russellbsenhuang: yeah.  vishy seemed interested in that at the summit21:41
comstudalaski: Oh yeah, that's right.  I forgot that was going to be a *you* thing21:41
russellbwhich thing21:41
comstudI have too much already21:41
russellbquery scheduler?21:41
comstudrussellb: conductor/scheduler change21:41
russellbhadn't even seen the blueprint21:41
alaskijust targeted it21:41
russellbcalled it!21:41
harlowjaalaski +121:41
harlowjadef need that i think21:41
russellbwill approve21:42
senhuangmorganfainberg: not sure. it is something like physical connectivity information put on some files. schedulers can read this information from files21:42
russellbalaski: havana-1 realistic?21:42
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harlowjaalaski if u need any help with that one let me know21:42
alaskiI guess I should find out exactly when that is, but I don't think it will be too large21:42
russellbalaski: toward the end of May21:42
alaskiharlowja: cool21:42
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morganfainbergsenhuang: ah yeah, similar in thought (aka, schedule X instances but lay it out in Y configuration) vs. just resource allocation/simple filtering21:43
comstudI think it will be relatively small work.  new sched method(s) so that backwards compat works21:43
russellbMay 3021:43
alaskirussellb: I think so, keeping it pretty simple21:43
russellbk approved for havana21:43
morganfainbergsenhuang: and base it on your "other" information.21:43
morganfainbergsenhuang: that could be useful.21:43
senhuangmoganfainberg: yep. then the scheduler is not limited to the information provided by host state reported by host-manager21:43
morganfainbergsenhuang: exactly.21:44
russellbalaski: thanks!21:44
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senhuangmorganfainberg: maybe we should start thinking of writing a blue print and see how to extend the current scheduler module21:44
alaskinp.  This should make shelving a bit easier as well21:44
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russellbalaski: which we also have on havana-121:45
russellbalaski: you have work to do!  :)21:45
* alaski types faster21:46
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alaskishelving may get pushed, but I'm hopeful21:46
morganfainbergsenhuang: i wouldn't be opposed to helping with something like that.  I'm wrangling cburgess and a couple other people here so we can get some blueprints in asap so it can all get done for havana, so i'll be in BP mode soon.21:46
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russellbalaski: we could push, and always pull it back in if things go well21:46
senhuangmorganfainberg: that will be great. i think some kind of wrapper around hoststate could be possible approach21:47
alaskirussellb: works for me, I'll change it21:47
russellbalright, it was a pleasure talking to you all21:48
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"21:48
openstackMeeting ended Thu May  2 21:48:15 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:48
openstackMinutes (text):
* johnthetubaguy goes to bed...21:48
senhuangsee you! thanks!21:48
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