Tuesday, 2013-06-04

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chmouelmordred: you are on EU timezone, right?08:20
chmouelmordred: was it you or joe who was telling me that you were going to come to europython?08:20
chmoueljog0: ^08:21
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n0ano#startmeeting scheduler14:59
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  4 14:59:58 2013 UTC.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:59
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scheduler'15:00
n0anoshow of hands, anyone here for the scheduler meeting?15:00
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n0anohmmm, thin turnout so far, we should make all our major decisions today and force them through :-)15:02
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n0anoBTW, my new tip for the day, when moving into a new house, don't plug your computers into a switched outlet, the total silence when you swith it off is very disconcerting :-)15:03
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n0anoWell, let's get started...15:04
* glikson here15:04
n0ano#topic host directory service15:04
*** openstack changes topic to "host directory service (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:04
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n0anoDoes anyone here know enough about this to talk about it, I don't15:05
PhiLDaysorry - missed the subjet ?15:05
n0anohost directory service15:05
n0anothe issue came up at the Havana summit but there's no BP and I don't really know what it is15:06
PhiLDayDon't even remember it from the summit to be honest15:06
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belmoreiraI'm not aware of that… can you explain?15:06
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n0anoit't there on the etherpad but that's about it, if no one is knowledgeable about it I'm just going to drop it from our list15:07
senhuangi believe it is something like polling the hosts for their capabilities?15:08
senhuangbut i am not sure.15:08
n0anoif someone is really interested they can create a BP, until then I'd prefer to drop it.15:08
PhiLDay"Host directory service" which stores extended information about hosts and configuration for scheduler. It is located inside the environment and has authentication. (cooperative work of the Dell and Mirantis teams).15:08
PhiLDayTaken from teh Summet abstract15:09
n0anoPhiLDay, is there a BP for that?15:09
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PhiLDayNot that I know of15:09
n0anoWell, no BP and the people involved haven't attended this meeting yet so I'm not seeing that much interest in the subject.15:10
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n0anoWhy don't we move on for now...15:10
n0ano#topic opens15:11
*** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:11
n0anoI think I'd like to open things up, we've discussed all the issues from the Havanna summit, is there anything people want to go over in more detail for now?15:11
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PhiLDayNothing burning for me - just need to free up some time to start work15:13
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n0anoI'm hearing a lot of silence (which is not necessarily bad)15:14
belmoreiraI have a BP that probably is good to have a discussion on it15:14
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belmoreirabut probably is good to do it in other meeting after people reading it15:15
belmoreiraI can give you an overview if you are interested15:15
PhiLDayJust taking a quick look now.15:15
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belmoreiraThe idea is to define a list of default availability zones not only one like what you have now15:16
n0ano#topic set availability zones15:16
*** openstack changes topic to "set availability zones (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:16
PhiLDayBTW we could also talk about the isolation filter change ?15:16
belmoreiraif we do that it's needed to select the best one15:16
senhuangwhat do you mean by "the best" availability zone?15:17
n0anobelmoreira, so, if I read you, you are only addressing where availabilty zones are defined but none is specified in the schedule request15:18
belmoreiraschedule the availability zone that has for example more free ram15:18
gliksonbelmoreira: how would this compare to cells?15:18
senhuangit seems to me "ram" is more like a property of node15:18
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PhiLDayThe biggest issue I see is that in some configurations (like ours ;-)   Instances and volumes have to be in the same AZ - so if you change the "default" az dynamically in Nova then it will cause issues for people expecting to work accross Nova and Cinder15:18
gliksonthere is ongoing work to add scheduling capabilities across cells..15:18
n0anosenhuang, indeed, .5 G for each of 5 nodes is not the same as 2G on one node15:19
belmoreirawhat I would like to have is a set of default availability zones if the user don't define any on vm create15:19
belmoreiramore or less like aws ec215:19
senhuangn0ano: yes. it also depends on the algorithm to calculate/aggregate the capabilities for nodes in a zone15:20
PhiLDayI think if your lookign for cross AZ or cross Cell criteria then it should be things like #instances, #running_creates15:20
belmoreirait can be random the selection (if you have a list of az)15:20
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belmoreiraor it can use the scheduler for select the az15:20
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jgallardnice idea, but from my understanding, cells will do that, no?15:21
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PhiLDaybut not everyone will deploy cells15:21
belmoreirain our setup we have az inside cells15:21
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belmoreirathe scheduler is done inside a cell15:21
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PhiLDayI like the idea - just trying to think how to make it work consistently across Nova and Cinder15:22
n0anoI plead ignorance, what does the scheduler currently do in your situation15:22
senhuangwhen all the nodes within the configured set of az's run out of resources, what the scheduler will do15:23
senhuangPhiLDay: i think you can define the same defatul set of az's for both cinder and nova15:23
* jgallard is thinking about the potential complexity of the scheduling : scheduling between host aggregates / scheduling between AZ / scheduling between cells15:24
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senhuangjgllard: once the query-scheduler function is implemented, the scheduler will be only responsible for host/ selection. it might be not a big issue of complexity.15:25
belmoreiraI will be more descriptive in the BP. And if we can discuss then in the next meeting will be great.15:25
PhiLDayToday you can set the same default AZ (single) for both Nova and Cinder - but with this BP you would get a list - and so an instance create and a volume create both without an AZ specified could end up in different AZs15:25
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n0anobelmoreira, NP, I'll add this to the agenda, looks like there are still some details that need to be sorted out15:26
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senhuangPhilDay: the right solution will be having a cross-project resource selection/scheduler15:27
jgallardsenhuang, ok, maybe, I need to think a little bit more about it15:27
belmoreiraPhiLDay: yes good point. In my setup we don't have cinder in different az.15:27
jgallardsenhuang, +115:27
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n0anoOK, let's all think about this and discuss further next week15:28
n0ano#topic isolation filter15:28
*** openstack changes topic to "isolation filter (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:28
n0anoPhiLDay, this is yours, right?15:28
PhiLDayYou almost want it to be sticky for a user - i.e the first default AZ is random, but after that they always go to that one.      If you coudl define teh defautk AZ per project in Keystome maybe15:28
PhiLDayIt was a question really about a review that belmoreira has going through, that others have suggestes my be related to whole-host allcoation15:30
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PhiLDayThe filter is similar to an existing filter - but there wasn't any consensus amongst the reviewers on whether to have 3 simple (but similar) filters or one configurable filter15:31
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PhiLDayAlso whether he aggregate metadata used by the filters should be the same or different15:32
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PhiLDayIAs its scheduler related, and it seems to be a slow news day here I thought it might be worth getting opiions15:32
belmoreiraWould be good to have other opinions15:32
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n0anohmmm, I don't like the idea of 3 mostly the same filters (code duplication issues with things getting out of sync) but configuration can be a pain also, I think this is all in the implementation details15:32
PhiLDayI was leaning towards having 3 filters but aligning on metadata (As configuring which filter to use is the same as configuring a filter)15:33
belmoreiraHaving different filters is more clean and don't change any behavior from previous releases.15:34
n0anoPhiLDay, back to the code duplication concerns15:34
n0anobelmoreira, but making sure the default configuration matches the previous releases should solve that issue15:34
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belmoreiraPhiLDay: the only problem that I see having the same metadata is if someone wants to use the filters simultaneously but with different behaviors. It will not be possible to configure in that case.15:35
PhiLDayEach filter is very short - and it is easier to see what it does as a spereate filter.  But I think we shouldl make it easy for someone to switch between them without having to set up new metadata values ion their aggregates15:35
n0anoI think I'm talking myself into one configurable filter, but it's not a strong preference15:35
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PhiLDaybelmoreira>  I was lookign at teh filters as being in effect exclusive - do you think there is a valid use case for using them in combination ?15:36
PhiLDayAggregateMultiTenancyIsolation:  Reserves hosts in specific aggregates only for use by selected projects (in effect limits other projects to the subset of the nodes not on those aggregates)    - Controlled Projects can use specific aggregate and any     other non-specific aggregate  - Other Projects can use any non-specific aggregate       ProjectsToAggregateFilter:  Constrains projects to specific aggregates.        - Co15:37
PhiLDayOk - that didn't paste well ;-(15:37
n0anoPhiLDay, you noticed :-)15:37
PhiLDayAggregateMultiTenancyIsolation:  Reserves hosts in specific aggregates only for use by selected projects (in effect limits other projects to the subset of the nodes not on those aggregates)15:37
belmoreirayes… I agree with you. I can't find a valid use case :)15:37
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PhiLDayProjectsToAggregateFilter:  Constrains projects to specific aggregates. (i.e mandatory isolation)15:38
PhiLDayand then for whole-host I want something more like  AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation but with the user able to chose if tey want to go into a restrcited aggregate or not15:39
belmoreirabut makes sense to change the metadata in AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation to be the same as ProjectsToAggregateFilter15:40
belmoreiraand also give support to multiple projects in AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation15:41
belmoreirainstead using the metadata key in AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation15:41
PhiLDayI hadn't picked up that AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation was single tenant only ?       I agree that would be cleaner - I guess it causes a compatibility issue though.15:42
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belmoreirayes… that's why at the end I moved to a different filter15:43
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PhiLDayThe doc string says "If a host is in an aggregate that has the metadata key         "filter_tenant_id" it can only create instances from that tenant(s)."15:44
PhiLDayisn't filter_tenant_id in fact a list of tenant IDs ?15:45
belmoreirano. It only supports one project.15:45
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PhiLDayif tenant_id not in metadata["filter_tenant_id"]:   is treating the metdata value as a list no ?15:46
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jgallardURL : https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/scheduler/filters/aggregate_multitenancy_isolation.py#L4315:49
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belmoreirayes… you get all filter_tenant_ids from that host15:52
jog0I joined the meeting late, but was wondering if the floor will be open for a few minutes at the end?  I have a general question15:52
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n0anojog0, as long as it's quick, we're running out of time.15:53
belmoreirabut you can only define one filter_tenant_id per aggregate15:53
jog0So at the last summit BlueHost announced they have a 16k node openstack cluster15:54
n0anobelmoreira, PhiLDay are we winding down on this, maybe people should follow the review link and chime in there or we can continue the discussion next week.15:54
jog0and one of the first things that they had to change was the scheduler.  As it didn't work at that scale, what are you guys discussing to make scheduling work at scale?15:54
belmoreiraPhiLDay: this means we can't have filter_tenant_id=id1, id2, id315:55
belmoreiraper aggregate15:55
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n0anojog0, would be very interested to see what BlueHost did, I don't think we're doing anything specific to address scale right now.15:55
jog0n0ano: ohh :(, scale seems like one of the most important use cases for all this stuff15:56
jog0bluehost gutted the scheduler all together15:56
jog0and just swapped in a simple one15:56
jog0compute nodes broadcasting stats to all schedulers every minute turns out to not scale well among other things15:57
n0anojog0, without identifying what the problems were with the current scheduler?15:57
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PhiLDay@belmoreira - have to fly no, maybe we can follow up on e-mail (phil.day@hp.com)15:58
jog0n0ano: ^, and the schedulers just spun processing all the incomming compute node reports15:58
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jog0comstud and I have a bug open on this, https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/117800815:58
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1178008 in nova "publish_service_capabilities does a fanout to all nova-compute" [Undecided,Triaged]15:58
n0anojog0, maybe that was a solveable problem rather than just replacing things15:58
jgallardPhiLDay, belmoreira , but as a compute can belongs to several aggregates, it can have several tenants?15:58
senhuangbluehost's scalability is amazing15:58
jog0n0ano: agreed, so lets solve it15:59
n0anojog0,  I would love to discuss this further next week if possible, will you be here then?15:59
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n0anoOK, we'll have to close for now but I'm hoping next week will be lively15:59
n0anoTnx everyone15:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings"15:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  4 15:59:54 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-06-04-14.59.html15:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-06-04-14.59.txt15:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-06-04-14.59.log.html16:00
belmoreirajgallard: yes… But each aggregate can't have a list of project ids16:00
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belmoreirathanks everyone16:00
primeministerp#startmeeting hyper-v16:00
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openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  4 16:00:44 2013 UTC.  The chair is primeministerp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v'16:00
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primeministerphi all, this is going to be quick16:00
ociuhanduhi all16:01
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primeministerpmultiple people not able to make it to today16:01
primeministerpociuhandu: howdy16:01
primeministerphopefully luis will show up16:01
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primeministerpI wanted to talk some puppet bits w/ lluis16:02
primeministerpociuhandu: you have anything to add16:02
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primeministerpif not going to cut it early16:02
primeministerpand continue being heads down16:02
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ociuhanduprimeministerp: not really16:02
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primeministerpok, then I'm calling it.16:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings"16:03
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  4 16:03:02 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:03
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-06-04-16.00.html16:03
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-06-04-16.00.txt16:03
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-06-04-16.00.log.html16:03
liuxpei<primeministerp>: will Alexssandro join the meeting? I want to discuss https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1177927 with him16:03
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1177927 in nova "VHD snapshot from Hyper-V driver is bigger than original instance" [Undecided,In progress]16:03
ociuhanduprimeministerp: as i've been looking on deploying the compute + quantum I think I can check if the list of dependencies is actual, maybe it'll help u on puppet too16:03
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shahzadCan any body help me to know where does discussion happen..because here i just see the people logging in/out16:16
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stevemaryay keystone18:01
ayoungUncle topolino!18:01
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topolsomehow they made me come back to work18:02
dolphm#startmeeting keystone18:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  4 18:02:08 2013 UTC.  The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:02
ayoung#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:02
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dolphm#topic High priority bugs or immediate issues?18:02
dolphm#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/117995518:02
*** openstack changes topic to "High priority bugs or immediate issues? (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1179955 in keystone "Disabling a tenant would not disable a user token" [Critical,In progress]18:02
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ayoungdolphm, so...just to point out18:03
dolphmayoung: that doesn't need to be in the meeting notes every week :P18:03
ayoungthis is a slippery slope18:03
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dolphmthere's a few high priority bugs on our plate that we need to get backported to grizzly18:03
ayoungI mean, we are not yet disabling projects18:03
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dolphmayoung: sure we are18:03
ayoungwe meaning Keystone18:04
ayoungwe are not disabling the hyopervisors18:04
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ayoungor, the VMS rather18:04
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dolphmcorrect, that's a whole different issue tracked in bp notifications18:04
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dolphm#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/notifications18:04
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ayoungbut...we will need to be able to list tokens by project, which will be expensive, and not make termie happy18:05
bknudsontermie's been quiet lately18:05
ayoungbknudson, day job has demanded his attention18:05
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bknudsonshould the project be in the token table/18:06
dolphmregarding disabling tenants, we've had several related issues over the past 6 months regarding authz against disabled entities... we really need a framework to consistently handle the consequences of disabling/deleting any given entity18:06
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henrynash_dolphm: agreed, I think was a bit over zealous in the changes i made to grants/disabling/deletions etc.18:07
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dolphmperformance has to come second to security related functionality... i think it's alright if disabling/deleting an entity is understood to be an expensive operation... we can fix performance later18:07
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ayoungdolphm, my suggestion is that we focus on short term tokens, and then the whole disable/revoke mechanism is not required.18:08
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bknudsonwe still have existing code out there that has to work.18:08
simoayoung: I guess you need to define short-term18:08
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ayoungsimo, 5 minutes18:08
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simoayoung: does that mean users need to renew credentials every 5 minutes ?18:09
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ayoungsimo, within clock skew, the same amount of time for a change to propate through the system18:09
ayoungsimo, they will need a new token, yes18:09
simofrom a master token ?18:09
simoor full re-authentication ?18:10
simowhat happens for requests that needs longer time ?18:10
dolphmbknudson: project / domain, depending on scope18:10
dolphmhenrynash_: i think you made great progress in the right direction, but there's still some gaps to fill18:10
dolphmi'd just like to make sure they're all filled so this is the last such defect we get18:10
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ayoungsimo, later discussion18:10
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henrynashdolphm:  agreed..feel free to assign some of these to me to sfix if we think we need to18:11
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henrynashhmm…is the chat room misbehaving for others….I seem to get only bursts of messages every few minutes...18:13
bknudsonhenrynash: working for me.18:14
gyeehenrynash, I am having the same problem18:14
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dolphmhenrynash: sure18:14
dolphmtwo other reviews that simply need some love, as they're relatively high priority for backporting https://review.openstack.org/#/c/31552/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/31559/18:14
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topoldolphm, I will review today. Will help me get back into the swing of things18:15
ayoungapproaved and ...18:15
dolphmhenrynash: that's happened to me w/ irc on poor wifi in the past18:15
dolphm#topic Inherited roles from domain18:15
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/29781/18:15
dolphmhenrynash: was this just on the agenda from last week?18:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Inherited roles from domain (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:15
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dolphmtopol: thanks18:16
henrynashdolphm: yes, but I left it on since we've not managed to close it yet...18:16
gyeeI have two issues on that one18:16
henrynashI went ahead and updated it as we discussed last week...18:16
gyee1) we need to extend the capability to all domains18:17
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henrynashbut gyee and others have some legit concerns18:17
gyee2) one, instead of multiple, APIs to get the effective role grants18:17
dolphmhenrynash: anything worth discussing here, or just want more attention on the review?18:17
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henrynashso I think I'd like some guidance on the one vs multiple apis18:17
henrynash(Gyee's 2nd point)18:17
henrynashtwo choices:18:17
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henrynasha) extending, as is shown in the current proposal, various apis to support inherited roels18:18
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henrynashb) change the format of the grant call, to provide more or less terms to achieve this:18:19
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henrynashe.g. Role applicable to all projects within a domain18:20
henrynashPUT /domains/{domain_id}/users/{user_id}/roles/{role_id}/projects18:20
henrynashRoles inherited by all projects in all domains18:20
henrynashPUT /usrs/{user_id}/roles/{role_id}/projects18:20
henrynashRoles inherited by all domains, at the domain level18:20
henrynashPUT /usrs/{user_id}/roles/{role_id}/domains18:20
gyeeI would like to see GET /user/{id}/roles return the effective grants, plus extra information on where the roles are granted18:20
ayounggyee, would "extrat info" be an additional call?18:20
henrynash(which was Gyee's suggestion)18:20
gyeeayoung, no18:21
henrynash(so this is actually Gyee's 1st point, sort)18:21
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ayounggyee, how would it look?18:21
gyeeit would be in the same collection18:21
gyeejust add an extra "scope" field or something18:21
henrynashgyee: that's already in the spec…we just need to change the name slightly and implemt it as speced18:21
henrynash(i.e. it's in the v3 spec!!!)18:21
dolphmon point 1) i'd argue that global roles are completely out of scope for this change, HOWEVER, this change should be made with thought put towards what global roles would look like. global roles have been repeatedly poo-poo'd by the community since diablo18:21
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gyeedolphm, inherited is semi or not full global :)18:22
gyeeif not18:22
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dolphmgyee: henrynash: i think point 2 can be discussed better in review, with the context of the calls themselves?18:22
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gyeesame use case18:22
gyeerole assignment is really about the scope it covers18:23
gyeeglobal, domain-global, domain-local, or project18:23
henrynashdolphm: agreed18:23
gyeethat's essentially what "inherited" means18:23
gyeereally about role scoping18:23
henrynashso "inherited" as I defined it is "domain-local" in your terminology?18:24
gyeeif we are going down the inherited path, we need something generic18:24
gyeehenrynash, it would be domain-global18:24
gyeesince it covers the entire domain18:24
gyeedomain-local is just domain grant without inheritance18:25
henrynashgyee: ahh, so domain-local is what we have today for a domain role18:25
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bknudsoncan a role scope be both domain-local and domain-global?18:26
henrynashdo my argument agains global is simply that .given that domain creation is either a rare occurrence (which case adding a role to each domain is not a chore) or frequent and automated (in which case automation could do the role assignment) - is the lack of global role really that bad?18:26
topolwould help to somewhere clearly define domain-local, domain-global, etc.18:26
gyeebknudson, if we want, my point is we need something generic so we can extend later if we want18:26
ayoungwhat is the distinction between domain-global and domain-local?18:27
gyeedomain-global = inherited by all projects18:27
gyeedomain-local = domain only18:27
simobetter nming perhaps: global-scope, domain-scope, project-scope18:27
ayoungok, can we not call it domain-global18:27
topolsimo +118:28
ayoungsimo, +118:28
gyeesimo, that's fine, we can make the names more intuitive18:28
gyeebut we need something extensible18:28
simogyee: it' half the work, really :)18:28
gyeeand generic18:28
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simodolphm: may I raise a concern ?18:28
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simomaybe it's my lack of knowledge though18:28
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ayoungso...isn't this really a mapping issue18:29
ayoungusers in Group X get a role on all projects in domain Y18:29
henrynashgyee: so your argument is that the api changes should allow a progression to more globalness in the  future if we chose that path?18:29
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gyeehenrynash, correct18:29
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henrynashgyee: Ok, understand that18:30
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ayoungSo...dchadwick would, if he were here, point out that this is just the sort of problem the mapping code is supposed to solve18:31
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simoayoung: it is possible18:31
ayoungmaybe we should punt on this until we have a plan to get that integrated instead18:31
gyeeayoung, mapping is a different issue I think18:31
ayounggyee, mapping is a mechanism18:31
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simoayoung: is there a concept of groups in keystone currently ?18:31
henrynashayoung: it's rally how we express that various mappings we want (or might want)18:32
henrynashgyee: so you would be ok if we didn't go all the way to "global", but the api changes we make would allow us a natural progression to that in the future if we chose it?18:32
ayoungsimo, yes18:32
gyeemapping is name manipulation18:32
simoayoung: what for ? I can't think of why you would want it18:32
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ayounggyee, mapping is "attribute in"  becomes "Attribute out"18:32
gyeehenrynash, as long as we make it generic and extensible, I am fine18:32
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ayounggyee,  "attribute out" in this case would be "role in project"18:33
simoaren't projects sufficient ?18:33
ayoungsimo, nope18:33
ayoungprojects are the groupsing for external resources18:33
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henrynashgyee: ok, let me work on that and update the bp18:33
ayounggroups are like LDAP groups for users18:33
gyeeayoung, role is just a name today18:33
gyeenothing more18:33
ayounggyee, it is the inheritance thing that mapping solves18:33
ayoungthe mechanism for assigning implicit roles18:33
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simoyou know the concern I have is that it seem we have nowhere a document that describes the security model and all the security/identity elements in the system and what they are intended to be used for18:34
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simothis means everyone will have their own ideas about things18:34
simoand there will be friction implementing any change18:34
gyeeayoung, role manipulation can be done in the pluggable token provider if you want :)18:34
henrynashdolphm: ok, maybe time for  another topic…I still 20 mins18:34
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henrynash(I stole 20 mins)18:34
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gyeethat's where we pull all the roles and stuff them into token18:34
ayounggyee, mapping is the mechanism for implementing18:34
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ayoungso, yes18:34
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ayoungsimo, you had an issue with the service catalog18:35
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simowell sort of18:35
ayoungyou need to get an endpoint out, but don't jhave a token18:35
ayoungand right now we say that is "admin only"18:35
simoI think that's a big dicussion and I gave up on it for now18:35
ayoungdolphm, is there any reason to "protect" the service catalog?18:35
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simobut the quesiton I have is why read access to the catalog is restricted ?18:35
gyeeyeah, we need an interface for service catalogs, similar to AccessInfo18:35
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gyeeperhaps it can lives in oslo18:36
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simooslo ?18:36
ayoungsimo, I do know that it is supposed to be scoped to give the user the "right" service catalog18:36
simogyee: you mean as a client ?18:36
ayoungsimo, oslo is openstack common18:36
simoayoung: I know18:36
bknudsonall data from Keystone should be protected by ssl18:36
simo(found out :)18:36
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gyeeright, we need a consistent way for clients to access the service catalog18:36
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simobknudson: ?18:36
gyeeparse and access18:36
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ayounggyee, so the question is do we need to protect the query for endpoints?18:37
simobknudson: unless you are talking ssl client certs, ssl does not 'protect' much, on its own18:37
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gyeeayoung, sure, that's what endpoint-filter bp's about18:37
ayoungI would think that, at a minimum, we should drop the "admin is required" on querying the service catalog18:37
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simogyee: is there any place that explains why the catalog must be secret?18:37
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ayounggyee, yeah, but I was think that was what we put in the token.  But maybe direct query of all endpoints for a service would be exposing too much info?18:38
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dolphm(i'll take that as a yes)18:38
dolphm#topic DB2 enablement18:38
dolphm#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/DB2Enablement18:38
dolphmbknudson: all yours18:38
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*** openstack changes topic to "DB2 enablement (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:38
simowhat is the point in withholding information about endpoints ?18:38
bknudsonthis should be a quick one...18:38
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bknudsonothers here have been working with the community to set up DB2 test env18:38
bknudsonwe have some docs up on the wiki now: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/DB2Enablement18:39
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bknudsonthat I've asked the guy who wrote it here to update with more detailed instructions for those not familiar with db218:39
gyeesimo, what's the point of returning an endpoint you don't have access to?18:39
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bknudsonwe had a blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/db2-database that was closed18:39
simogyee: (define you)18:39
bknudsonand it seemed like the correct way to proceed was to file a bug and submit the code18:39
ayoungbknudson, so, my position is the same as before:  we should make sure thatthe generic DB code executes the same on all platforms.  THat requires getting the DB code into gate first and foremost18:39
gyeeyou = token holder18:39
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bknudsonso that's what I plan to do18:39
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simogyee: in my case I do not even have a token (and don't need one for now)18:40
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ayoungbknudson, so the issue is provisiong the DB for testing, and it sounds like tempest is the right place to do that.  Ideally, the Postgresql and DB2 code paths would be identical18:40
bknudsonayoung: I agree it would be great to have it in the gate.18:40
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bknudsonayoung: I thought even the postgres testing was out of the gate since nobody was supporting it?18:41
dolphm(i got booted by freenode)18:41
simobknudson: I use it every day :)18:41
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simodolphm: seem there are issues on freenode today18:42
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ayoungbknudson, for now, you can add a config file in test so that we can run the migrations against DB2, and we'll work on getting the rest of the backend tests running against the real RDBMSs afterwards18:42
dolphmsimo: are you supporting it?18:42
gyeesure, lets include DB218:42
ayoungdolphm, yes we are18:42
bknudsonayoung: easy to do.18:42
simodolphm: you got booted for 'excess flood'18:42
gyeemore tests more merrier18:42
ayoungDB2 won't go into gate, though18:42
ayoungThat can be your companies Special sauce, bknudson18:42
dolphmsimo: postgres gate is failing18:42
bknudsonhttp://logs.openstack.org/31559/2/check/gate-tempest-devstack-vm-postgres-full/20047 : FAILURE in 53m 03s (non-voting)18:42
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dolphmayoung: or ibm can donate CI resources to make it a gate18:43
simotbh I find it a bit ridiculous we need to have more and more and more DBs ...18:43
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gyeebknudson, does DB2 need to be open sauce first?18:43
simodolphm: I and ayoung will make sure someone takes a look18:43
dolphmsimo: agree, but there's not one db that fits all18:43
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simodolphm: it needs to fit US! right ?18:43
dolphmsimo: everyone's deployment is different18:43
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bknudsongyee: I guess it's up to the community if they will accept code changes to support a non-open-source db.18:44
simodolphm: it's just a slow down, crappy inducing factor, but I do understand, for once I can;t stand mysql :)18:44
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dolphmsimo: agree18:44
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dolphmgyee: depends on the extent of the changes :(18:45
dolphmbknudson: *18:45
gyeeknudson, should this be a legal discussion first?18:45
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dolphmbknudson: if you need proprietary support, then it's tough odds18:45
simodo we have db specific code actually ?18:45
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simoisn't everythign wrapped into sqlalchemy ?18:45
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dolphmbknudson: if you're simply discovering issues using db2 that benefit other backends, then great18:45
dolphmsimo: migrations, typically18:45
bknudsonsimo: there are several places where we've got db-specific code in migrations.18:45
gyeesimo, problem is sqlalchemy behave differently for different dbs18:45
gyeethat's why more tests is good18:46
bknudsonthe changes I've got to support db2 are similar to the ones for mysql/postgres/sqlite.18:46
simogyee: well of course, given different DBs have different features ...18:46
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gyeesimo, no, I mean basic stuff like renaming a table18:47
ayoungbknudson, yeah...on that point18:47
gyeesome support it some don't18:47
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dolphmbknudson: feel free to put them up for review18:47
simodolphm: wouldn't it be beneficial at least to try to confine all 'special' code into a pluggable module ?18:47
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ayounghttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/31249/  is not longer DB specific18:47
bknudsondolphm: ok, I'll try it.18:47
dolphmsimo: migrations can be broken down that way already18:47
simogyee: in fact renaming tables is a 'feature' :-/18:47
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bknudsonayoung: I think https://review.openstack.org/#/c/31249/ is a good example where db2 support might be helpful.18:47
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ayoungbknudson, try running the Postgresl live tests against DB2 and post your results18:48
bknudsonthe mysql fix was specific to mysql whereas this one should work with db2.18:48
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bknudsonI'll give it a try18:48
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ayoungbknudson, you should be able to modify the test config for DB2 and run18:49
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ayoungSo...one issue on splitting identity if we have time?18:49
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ayoungI wrote it up as Mapping Usernames from Multiple IdP's to Keystone18:50
ayoungand sent it in email18:50
ayoung#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/mapping-user-ids18:50
dolphm(fyi, i'm going to #endmeeting a bit early)18:51
ayoungjamielennox, dchadwick/ksiu and I have be debating this one, and I wanted to get a larger perspective18:51
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gyeeayoung, I'll take a look18:51
ayoungI think I want to drop the "expires" time thing from the user bp18:51
gyeeon my todo list18:51
gyee+1 on dropping expires18:52
ayoungit seems to me that it should be role assignments which are time limited18:52
gyeerole assignments shouldn't have a time limit either18:52
dolphm#topic open discussion18:52
mordredfwiw - I don't think there are any problems adding db2 support patches - but it's unlikely that the CI systems will be able to test them for you18:52
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:52
gyeethat's strictly a backend/provider issue18:52
ayounggyee, true, it can be enforced by token expiriy18:52
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ayounggyee, this is for autoprovisioning18:53
dolphmbknudson: mordred: nor does the community necessarily have the expertise to properly review them18:53
mordreddolphm: ++18:53
ayoungSo, what we need is a policy that enforces the token creation, but we don't need expl;icit APIs for them.18:53
gyeeayoung, not sure what you mean18:54
ayounggyee, I am agreeing with you18:54
gyeehow does token expiry related to role expiry?18:54
bknudsondolphm: I think we'll have ci infra internally here, so I'll probably post a fix if it breaks.18:54
ayounggyee, think of it as "on demand you get a limited amount of resources for a limited time"18:54
gyeebtw, my colleague is ready to work on the generic signature auth bp18:55
gyee#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/generic-signature-validation18:55
gyeemy colleague Nachi18:55
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gyeeif you guys have some time, please review the proposal18:55
ayounggyee, that is kindof what simo is working on, isn't it?18:55
dolphmbp temporary-user-provisioning can certainly be done as an extension - it doesn't need to be done as core18:55
gyeedolphm, +118:55
dolphm#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/temporary-user-provisioning18:55
gyeeayoung, no, that's different18:55
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gyeeI think simo is working on the kerberos stuff18:56
ayoungdolphm, agreed, and I think we don't need to expand the API to support it, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced it can be handled  with current public APIs18:56
ayounggyee, no, he is doing the messaging crypto stuff18:56
ayoungwhich includes HMAC18:56
simogyee: no I am doing message signing18:56
gyeeok, we're good then18:57
simogyee: and I have a patch in oslo-incubator that will give you access to generic HMAc as part of my bp18:57
simogyee: so let's try not to duplicate work18:57
ayoungsimo, I thought you were doing HMAC as part of that?18:57
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simowhat I said precisely18:57
gyeesimo, beautiful18:57
ayoungyes, you type faster than I do18:57
gyeewe can definitely leverage your stuff18:57
simogyee: please tell your colleague to review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28471/18:58
simogyee: and let me know if he needs anything else18:58
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dolphmjust a couple minutes left, but i'd suggest switching to -dev :)18:58
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gyeesimo, sure, thanks18:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  4 18:58:59 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-06-04-18.02.html18:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-06-04-18.02.txt18:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-06-04-18.02.log.html18:59
simogyee: however I am not proposing an API, I see no point in doing HMAC through an API18:59
simodolphm: agree18:59
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jeblairci/infra meeting?19:00
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jeblair#startmeeting infra19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  4 19:01:32 2013 UTC.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:01
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jeblair#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting19:01
jeblair#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-05-28-19.02.html19:01
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jeblair#topic actions from last meeting19:01
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jeblairclarkb: did you get up to speed on recent testr'ing?19:02
* mordred failed at his action from last week - but has had several emails indicating people are coming19:02
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jeblairmordred: okay.  are the dates confirmed?19:03
fungimordred: do you have a venue? or is this taking place in your living room?19:03
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nati_uenohi o/19:03
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mordredfungi: I do not yet have a venue, but it will be near my living room19:03
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mordredjeblair: yes. june 27/2819:03
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mordredwe will either be in a swanky meeting place in soho if I can figure out how HP pays for such things - or a room at NYU :)19:04
jeblair#action mordred make a signup thingy for bootcamp19:04
zuloooooh nyu19:04
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jeblairreed: do we need to talk about the mailing list?19:05
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fungii think we lost clarkb19:06
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fungiyeah, that was another massive netsplit19:06
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fungior server drop19:06
jeblair#topic TryStack user management19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "TryStack user management (Meeting topic: infra)"19:06
mordredclarkb1 is here19:06
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mordredhey nati_ueno !19:07
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fungibunch of people just flooded back in19:07
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jeblairannegentle: ping (you added this topic)19:07
annegentlejeblair: heya19:07
jeblairreed: ping (you mentioned this topic)19:07
annegentlenachi__: around?19:07
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jeblairnati_ueno: is here19:07
annegentlenati_ueno: woo!19:08
annegentleI'll just bring up the topics for your team's input if that's ok19:08
annegentledoes anyone need trystack background info?19:08
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clarkb1fungi: I am sort of here19:08
clarkb1it finally dropped my other connection19:09
annegentleThe goal for TryStack is to use donated hardware and admin resources to give people a chance to try OpenStack as cloud consumers/devs.19:09
annegentlenati_ueno and jaypipes started it a while back19:09
reedjeblair, I have nothing to report unfortunately19:09
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annegentleoriginally Facebook was the starting point for user access, with the intention to move it19:09
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annegentlea kerfluffle came up last week where Facebook wanted a privacy policy in place for what happens with user info for a group. Sorry I don't have many details there.19:10
reednow it seems that Facebook has kicked the app for lack of a privacy policy19:10
annegentleIdeally we'd have a user identity layer that enables access to Trystack without the use of Facebook19:11
mordredI know of people in this channel who would like that19:11
reedfungi, anything19:11
annegentleThe short list of requirements would be:19:11
annegentle1. Group member management (CRUD, remove)19:11
annegentle2. ensure real identities, not bots19:11
annegentle2.a not spammers19:12
annegentle3. Enable group communication with users19:12
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annegentleFacebook does meet these except well you know, walled garden and all19:12
fungiahh, okay, so just general unvetted openid providers are off the table19:12
annegentlereally just want to get ideas for managing 8000+ users and how to migrate19:12
reedregarding 3, I think we should re-use what we have19:12
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reedthat is: mailing lists and ask19:12
fungi(...and irc!)19:13
clarkband IRC (it is linked to directly on trystack.org)19:13
* fungi laughs19:13
annegentlewell, is it apprporiate to use openstack-announce for Trystack announcements? (seems like it)19:13
reedclarkb, I don't see the 8k facebook users use irc... but I may be wrong :)19:13
clarkbhowever, there is a fair amount of churn on #openstack about trystack and none of the people with answers seem to hang out there...19:13
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reedask is IMHO the best place to ask trystack things19:14
mordredreed: I think clark is saying that tons of people _do_ show up to IRC and ask questions about trystack19:14
annegentleclarkb: the churn happens when there's a problem with the cluster. I think #openstack is okay for asking questions about trystack, I can update the page to not use a separate channel.19:14
reedannegentle, for the migration, if we enable simply authentication via facebook (no group management) it should be ok19:14
mordredreed: and they do so in a channel that doesn't have trystack coverage19:14
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jeblairI think launchpad is as good as any other authn/authz system as the things you mention, and of course we use it for everything else openstack.19:14
mordredjeblair: ++19:14
annegentlemordred: I haven't seen a trystack question in #openstack for a while19:14
mordredannegentle: ossum19:15
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mordredI think it if wants to 'feel' like an openstack project thing, launchpad is the way to go19:15
annegentlemordred: but might be a timing thing too19:15
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clarkbmordred: correct19:15
clarkbI think #openstack is fine but if trystack is going to continue advertising it on their website it should have more trystack people in that channel19:15
annegentlemordred: so originally I was thinking it's a different audience than the Launchpad crowd, that we should enable multiple identities to try to get coverage in more than just the dev crowd19:16
annegentlemordred: or go right to github since more activity there.19:16
fungihow many trystack support people are there currently and what times do they hang out in #openstack?19:16
reeddoes anybody know what it takes to remove that facebook app auth from trystack and enable facebook oauth (and LP, maybe)?19:16
annegentlefungi: probably 319:16
mordredannegentle: what's the goal we're trying to get with using a different auth system?19:16
annegentlemordred: trying to expand the "community" beyond LP19:17
mordredannegentle: why19:17
reedmordred, because LP user experience sucks19:17
mordredwe're not expecting that we're going to draw our community _from_ LP19:17
mordredit's a login mechanism19:17
reedand we don't want to force *users* to create yet another login in a system we don't control19:17
mordredand it's the one we use for SSO for OpenStack things19:17
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fungireed: i don't think any of us disagree about lp being suboptimal. i'd love to see us have something better available to the project19:17
mordredour wiki is tied to it19:17
annegentlereed: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/trystack/+spec/openid-registration19:17
annegentlemordred: is doing the five whys with me.19:17
reedfungi, in the long run I think we will be using the openstack foundation db...19:18
mordredannegentle: I don' tknow what those are :)19:18
jeblairreed: if that is ever open sourced.  :(19:18
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fungireed: yeah, but lp between now and the openstack official identity provider means one fewer places we need to migrate from when that happens19:18
jeblairreed: i would not recommend trystack wait on the foundation db at the moment due to very slow progress.19:18
mordredI don't like facebook as a source, because it's not open source, and because there are community members who refuse to use it19:18
annegentlemordred: walled gardens abound :)19:18
jeblairfungi: +119:18
reedjeblair, talked to todd, it's not as simple... he can give you the details19:18
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pleia2fungi +119:19
mordredI don't like github as a source, because it's not open source, and it would be more more step of confusion of people thinking that openstack uses github19:19
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jeblairreed: i would love for him to do that.  it seemed simple when we last talked about it at the summit.19:19
mordredit doesn't have to be launchpad19:19
reedmordred, facebook is like any other oauth system, you don't have to use it19:19
mordredbut I would like to see whatever the source is be somethign that's open source, and something that doesn't present a confusing experience19:19
jeblairmordred: +119:19
mordredreed: what? for trystack, currently, you have to have a facebook account19:20
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fungiand if it happens to be launchpad, it can just piggyback on the later migration we're going to have to do for everything else anyway19:20
reedmordred, what's wrong with the approach that Ask takes? authenticate using any system you want or create a new id19:20
annegentlemordred: I think the ideal experience is enabling people to identify using what ever auth they like19:20
annegentlereed: +119:20
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jeblairannegentle: then openid with allowing any providers is a good way to do that19:20
mordredreed, annegentle: so, that's a potential thing - but it completely misses out on points 2 and 3 you listed above19:20
annegentleI don't mean "what ever auth" that's silly, but I do mean that people represent themselves differently and may have reasons for which auth they want to id as19:21
mordredit doesn't provide for a group management system19:21
jeblairannegentle: if you allow any openid provider, it is a little easier for spammers19:21
fungiannegentle: sure but one of your other requirements was tying those identities back to some sort of group management and communication platform19:21
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annegentlemailing list can help with 319:21
reedmordred, right! that's why using oauth via FB  is a good thing19:21
mordredreed: no19:21
jeblairreed: it is one of the reasons i have never seen trystack19:21
reedpoint 3 is IMHO not a priority of this project19:21
mordredreed: oauth via fb prevents jeblair from using trystack19:22
reedhe is not the target audience :)19:22
mordredreed: who is?19:22
annegentleoath via more providers seems like the right direction?19:22
mordredwe might need to go back to that question19:22
reedconsumers of API are19:22
mordredjeblair is a consumer of the API19:22
jeblairannegentle: i think openid with more providers is the right direction19:22
mordredin fact19:22
reedmordred, but he has tens of other and better places to test openstack19:22
mordredhe might be one of the most active consumers of the OpenStack API19:22
* annegentle studies oauth v openid19:22
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jeblairmordred: and earliest19:23
reedlet me recap19:23
mordredreed: he's also indicitive of a type of alpha developer19:23
reedwe are getting sidetracked19:23
mordredwe're not19:23
mordredthis is what the conversatoin started on19:23
mordredand it's an important point that you're trying to blow off19:23
reedI would like to re-frame the conversation19:23
nati_uenohi sorry i'm back now19:23
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mordredyay! it's nati_ueno19:24
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reedwe have now a very poweful tool  that is not getting used at its best, we have limited resources to manage it, too19:24
annegentlenati_ueno: hurrah19:24
nati_uenomordred: yay19:24
reedone of the issues that trystack faces is spammers and abuse19:24
fungii think the question of whether we're targeting lowest-common-denominator users with near-zero technical skills, a la the facebook crowd, is a very valid question19:24
reedthose things take *lots* of time19:24
mordredfungi: ++19:24
mordredreed: right. launchpad, it turns out, is a pretty good spammer filter :)19:25
reedas we've seen with the previous wiki, launchpad does a bad job at preventing spammers19:25
fungipeople who are interested in testing cloud servers also are not likely afraid of launchpad, irc, mailing lists, and so on19:25
mordredit does?19:25
mordredoh. ok. my bad19:25
mordredwhat did launchpad have to do with spam on the previous wiki?19:25
reedmordred, I remember the contrary... spam was an issue on the previous wiki19:25
jeblairannegentle: i thought when we turned on openid on the wiki the spam was redured?19:25
mordredreed: how is that related to launchpad?19:25
annegentleWe also need to figure out whether the useage/experience of the current 8000 users is more worth maintaining than disrupting. That might help shape priorities.19:25
annegentleare we going to get 8000 more?19:25
annegentleIf we got 8000 on FB that's something to consider is what I mean.19:25
mordredreed: the previous wiki started off not using launchpad auth19:26
mordredwhich is when we had spam issues19:26
annegentlejeblair: yes the openid on the wiki helped immensely with the spam problem19:26
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mordredthe current wiki uses - launchpad19:26
reedI thought there was a bot that via lp kept adding bad edits19:26
annegentleI'm still saying, what about 8K FB users? Is that meaningful to y'all? We have over 9000 Launchpad users? We have no way of seeing an intersection there but I bet it's less than 1k19:27
fungithe later moin spam issues had mostly to do with someone leveraging a compromised lp account, i believe19:27
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jeblairso openid is a good tech choice because it gives us a lot of options for providers now and in the future.19:27
fungisame sort of thing is possible with just about any auth provider19:27
reedfungi, ok, at least I didn't dream of that :)19:27
nati_uenoyeah, I'm scaring spam users19:27
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nati_uenoWe are giving free VM with root19:27
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jeblairwe could do openid with any provider and make it very easy for people and spammers19:27
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jeblairor we could do openid with launchpad as the provider, and use that for the following side effects:19:27
nati_uenoYes but we need manegement ui for that19:28
nati_uenoJust one click and ban the spammer19:28
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nati_uenoI can't find such providers which can provide user management UI otherwise facebook19:28
reedopenID is one choice, oauth via facebook IMHO needs to be part of the range of possibilities19:28
jeblair  - spammers are less likely to go through the lp signup process repeatedly19:28
jeblair  - lp provides group management, meaning it can be used for authz as well as authn19:28
nati_uenoSo there are some way to spam19:28
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nati_uenojust spam comment19:28
nati_uenoor use the VM for VM19:29
fungii really think that it's hard to scare spammers away from free services anyway. in my service provider life we had customers who offered free trials for their mail marketing services and were plagued by spammers signing up for free trials with stolen credit card numbers19:29
nati_uenosorry typo19:29
nati_uenousing VM for spamming19:29
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nati_uenoFor attacher, it is worth login to the lp for spamming19:29
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nati_uenoalso we can create any number of lp id19:29
nati_uenowithout Name19:29
nati_uenoso IMO, lp id is not sufficient for trystack19:30
fungiso yes, any barrier to entry lower than or equal to requiring a credit card is little barrier at all to criminal spammers19:30
jeblairnati_ueno: but if you're using a lp group, then you can only add people with names (and maybe email addresses)19:30
mordredok. I'd like to make a suggestion. we've now been on this topic for 22 minutes and we have several more to go19:30
jeblairnati_ueno: and if they are abusive, you can remove them from the group19:30
mordredthere seem to be as many opinions here as people19:30
nati_uenojeblair: But what's if the spanner creates new lp id after we banned him?19:30
mordredhow about we have someone go away and write up a list of proposals/possibilities19:30
fungimordred: secondeed19:30
nati_uenomordred: +119:30
reedI'll do it19:30
mordredthat we can read offline and discuss and we can come back to the meeting next week19:31
pleia2thanks reed19:31
annegentlethanks reed19:31
jeblairnati_ueno: i don't think an authentication system can prevent spammers.19:31
nati_uenojeblair: Yes. We need some ID.19:31
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reed#action reed to summarize the discussion so far and send recap to mailing list19:31
nati_uenojeblair: credit card is best19:31
nati_uenohowever it costs19:31
nati_uenoFacebook ID is easier way to get some kind of IDs19:31
reed#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/trystack/+spec/openid-registration19:32
fungistolen credit card numbers abound and can be had for cheap19:32
jeblairregardless, additional work will be required.  i don't think any system suceptible to spam has solved the problem just with authentication.19:32
nati_uenoIt is easy to check spammer because he has no friends19:32
jeblairnati_ueno: i have no friends and i am not a spammer.  you can get false positives that way too.19:32
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nati_uenojeblair: I can be your friend :).19:32
jeblairthat's a great way to end this topic.  :)19:33
jeblairnati_ueno: thank you19:33
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jeblair#topic TripleO Testing (TOCI)19:33
nati_uenojeblair: We are accepting new users without check for now19:33
*** openstack changes topic to "TripleO Testing (TOCI) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:33
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pleia2so, last week I was testing TOCI and learned we can't use kvm, so I tried using qemu19:33
pleia2that was unuseably slow on hpcloud19:33
jeblairaction mordred get hpcloud to support nested kvm19:34
pleia2I then started looking into lifeless' takeover node to see if we could launch multiple vms instead of doing nested19:34
mordredjeblair: haha19:34
pleia2but that 1) causes lots more problems (local lan between them?) 2) ends up not testing all of what we want to test anyway (it's not really tripleo anymore)19:34
pleia2so lifeless suggested trying with lxc instead19:35
pleia2that's where I'm at now19:35
fungithis would be lxc on (essentially) a devstack throwaway test slave?19:35
pleia2fungi: right19:35
fungii think lxc for testing things like that will probably work great. it has some security challenges still, but shouldn't be an issue in that situation19:36
pleia2so I'm working through some lxc configs and doing some tests on hpcloud19:37
jeblairpleia2: sounds good!19:37
jeblairend of topic?19:38
jeblair#topic Py3K support, testing and potential platforms19:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Py3K support, testing and potential platforms (Meeting topic: infra)"19:38
lifelesspleia2: SpamapS_ suggested it; I misunderstood then got it :)19:38
clarkbwoo this has been fun :)19:38
mordredclarkb: ++19:38
pleia2lifeless: oh right, thanks SpamapS_! :)19:38
clarkbso I got into running things with py3k because my log pusher script is a py3k script and I want to use gear19:38
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* zul ears perked up19:39
clarkbI basically learned that you start scratching at the surface of this problem and very quickly find yourself deep underground19:39
jeblairalso, zul wants to start running tests19:39
clarkbyes, I think tests are super important so that we stop ending up in giant pits19:39
mordredI don't like giant pits19:39
fungiso the question here is test with what version(s) on what platform(s)19:40
fungiand how to get there19:40
clarkbnow /me gives it over to zul so he can talk about why testing is hard ;)19:40
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jeblairat the design summits, it was generally agreed to target 3.3 because supporting <3.3 and 2.x is hard19:40
zulthats what i rember as well19:40
fungithat matches my recollection19:40
zuland precise only have 3.219:41
mordredwhich is why we should ditch ubuntu for debian on our test slaves19:41
* mordred ducks19:41
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mordredhonestly - I think the open question is do we revisit our recent decision to just run precise for our test slaves19:41
fungimordred: to be fair you get 3.3 on debian stable right now by installing it from testing, at least until it starts getting into the backports repo19:41
mordredbecause we could test 3.3 on quantal or raring19:42
clarkbquantal also has 3.319:42
fungiquantal also has not a lot of life left in it already, right?19:42
mordredbut quantal only has a 9 month release window19:42
clarkbI really don't think we can do raring19:42
jeblairor do we add new slaves to do 3.x testing?19:42
mordredoh - sorry , that's what I was suggesting19:42
jeblairand perhaps treat it more opportunistically?19:42
mordrednot moving our precise slaves back to quantal19:42
clarkbjeblair: yes19:42
clarkbif we do Debian we could have python3.alltheversions on the same box and use those slaves to test python319:43
jeblairwe'll try to run python3.x tests on branches as long as we can, but we're not going to do crazy things when they go eol19:43
mordredquantal slaves for 3.3 testing and then move them to raring when we have raring slaves availble?19:43
mordredjeblair: ++19:43
jeblairmordred: +1, and if raring works on stable/havana, sure, and if it doesn't, drop the tests?19:43
zulraring should already be avialable on hp cloud btw19:43
mordredjeblair: yah19:43
fungiif we decide to go the debian route, i spun a test slave up in rackspace and threw together a quick gap list...19:44
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/debian-wheezy-slave-todo19:44
mordredzul: nope19:44
mordredzul: I see no raring19:44
jeblairfungi: oh yeah, quantal puppet issue.  :(19:44
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zulmordred:  ugh ill bug them again19:45
mordredjeblair: oh. wait. which one was that?19:45
fungijeblair: right several of the items on that debian/wheezy list also apply to quantal and raring19:45
jeblairmordred: what fungi said19:45
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jeblairmordred: specifically, the puppetlabs thing was the shebang problem, iirc19:45
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mordredah. yes19:46
mordredeverything about this is making me have memories of hating people19:46
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* lifeless whispers 19:46
* mordred kickbans lifeless19:46
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zulso yeah python3 get it done ;)19:47
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fungithanks zul ;)19:47
jeblairmy sense is that we're generally in favor of launching quantal slaves for python3.3 testing... that sound about right?19:47
mordredzul: add python3.3 to precise-backports might be easier?19:47
mordredjeblair: yes19:47
mordredjeblair: pending the work to make the puppet happy19:48
zulmordred:  easier to stick it a ppa19:48
jeblair(and some of us are ready to hop on over to debian at the first sign of trouble)19:48
mordredoh - well...19:48
mordredjeblair: one thought zul brought up was - what if he put python3.3 in a ppa?19:48
jeblairi can't immediately come up with a reason to to do that19:49
zulmordred:  then you arent going to get other crap in the backport-archive19:49
fungiit's really just a question of whether someone is taking care of continually backporting new 3.3 releases to cover security issues19:49
zuli can do that19:49
jeblairsorry, 'a reason not to do that'19:49
jeblairassuming zul is minding that ship.  :)19:49
mordredit might actually be less work than spinning up quantal slaves and porting puppet nonsense19:49
jeblairi hear he knows about packaging19:49
fungii think it sounds great if zul's taking care of the package updates quickly19:49
clarkbI would be onboard wit ha py3k PPA19:50
zulwhats more work for me to do19:50
fungizul: so yeah python3 get it done ;)19:50
zulfungi: okie dokie...done...just kidding19:50
jeblair#action zul make py3k ppa19:50
jeblairactually, let's think that through a little more...19:51
jeblairif we used quantal/raring, we would have slaves dedicated to py3.3 testing19:51
dprinceI have another suggestion. Why not use Fedora 18 (which has python 3.3 natively)19:51
fungithat's also backporting things like python3-pip and whatever other libs we need, right?19:51
* dprince will do the puppet work to make it work.19:51
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jeblairwhich means we could make that be the only python env, which makes the puppet pip problem simple...19:52
jeblairif we used a backport ppa on precise, we would either still need to make dedicatde slaves for python3 testing19:52
clarkbIt would be nice to support 3.2 too if possible19:52
jeblairor solve the puppet pip problem19:52
mordredjeblair: good point19:52
clarkbwhile more difficult it is not impossible to do 2.x and 3.2 and some projects may want to do that19:52
jeblairisn't that correct?  (because we do have puppet pip installing things needed for tox testing; like tox?)19:52
SpamapS_mordred: quantal is 18 month release window btw.19:53
fungiand raring is 9?19:53
pleia2fungi: right19:53
mordredjeblair: not to derail us further... but should we re-think about deb packaging the things we install via puppet from pip?19:53
* zul sniggers19:53
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mordredI think I like the dedicated python3.3 slave idea19:54
jeblairdprince: ack; (quantal|f18) might be an option, but the puppet pip thing is an issue regardless19:54
fungidprince: what's the support period on f18?19:54
mordredjeblair: is it on f18 if python3.3 is just the python on f18?19:54
dprincefungi: 13 months.19:55
fungidprince: when is f19 due out?19:55
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SpamapS_how much effort does it take to bring new slave OS's online?19:55
jeblairmordred: i'm cool with deb packaging; several of our contributors deb package things we're using, so we can collab more there19:55
jeblairmordred: i phrased that poorly, i meant to say that f18 and quantal are in the same boat....19:55
clarkbSpamapS_: not a whole lot anymore. mostly just making puppet handle corner cases19:55
mordredah. gotcha19:55
dprincefungi: july19:55
dprincefungi: 2nd19:56
fungiSpamapS_: it is a nonzero effort, but no more than a week or two once the providers have images available to us generally19:56
jeblairmordred: so i think the decision tree is like "precise or (quantal or f18)"19:56
zuljeblair:  just one thing the packages are called python3-all, etc19:56
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SpamapS_Ok so if you do quantal, you are talking about having to do one more flip to saucy before you can bridge to 14.04...19:57
fungiSpamapS_: pretty much, yes, there's a gap there between either quantal or raring and the next lts19:57
SpamapS_you could technically even just go right from quantal -> 12.04 if you start with the betas and don't mind the potential for being EOL'd whilst fixing issues19:58
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SpamapS_fungi: there's no gap. 12.10 (quantal) is supported until April 2014.19:58
SpamapS_Its just that.. there's no overlap19:58
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fungiahh, right, and no guarantee our providers will have glance or images available immediately19:59
jeblairwe're about out of time; let's take this back to #openstack-infra and see if we can get a consensus real quick...19:59
* fungi agrees19:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings"19:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  4 19:59:51 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-06-04-19.01.html19:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-06-04-19.01.txt19:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-06-04-19.01.log.html19:59
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ttxWho is around for the TC meeting ?20:00
markmcme, me, me20:00
markmcthat's three to start with20:00
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ttxThat would make 5 marks20:01
ttxwe need some kind of upper limit on the number of marks20:01
zaneb(I am shardy's proxy for the day)20:01
ttxjd__, annegentle, mordred, markwash, jgriffith, vishy, markmcclain: around ?20:02
dolphmjust fyi, freenode was super flaky during the keystone meeting a couple hours ago20:02
annegentlehere o/20:02
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  4 20:03:01 2013 UTC.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:03
ttxOn the agenda today, mostly open discussion on governance topics20:03
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee20:03
mordredttx: sup!20:03
ttx#topic Open discussion: TC membership evolution, take 220:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion: TC membership evolution, take 2 (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/TC_Membership_Models20:03
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ttxWe have been looking into various models to evolve the Technical Committee membership20:03
ttxThe discussion on the -dev ML is at:20:03
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-May/009578.html20:03
ttxFor today I'd like us to come down to one or two models, discuss further this week and vote next week at the earliest20:04
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ttxSo far two models emerged from the discussion: the "All-directly-elected 11" model and the "6 categorized PTLs + 7 directly-elected" model20:04
ttxChoice between the two all boils down to simplicity (simple direct election) vs. diversity (enforced by the categorized PTLs seats)20:04
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ttxMost opinions expressed on the thread were "I prefer All-directly-elected 11, but I could live with 6 categorized PTLs + 7"20:05
ttxAny other opinion ? Anyone strongly against one model or the other ?20:05
markmcgood summary20:05
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markwashI must have misread the category support somehow20:05
markmcwhat happened to the best PTLs model?20:05
russellbi really, really want to just try directly-elected and see that it's a problem somehow before making it so darn complicated20:05
markmcthat was my second preference20:05
russellbi don't like the categories approach very much at all, personally20:06
jd__russellb: sounds reasonable to me too20:06
markmcrussellb, these three marks agrees20:06
ttxmarkmc: so you prefer all-directed 11 but would pick "best 7 PTLs + 6" as your second preferred option ?20:06
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russellbi'd pick that over categories, as well20:06
gabrielhurleyI'm still wary of an all-directly-elected, but I'm willing to be proven wrong20:06
dolphmttx: does the +6 guarantee 6 seats for non-PTL's?20:06
markmcttx, right20:06
ttxdolphm: no20:07
markmcclainI'm wary too of an all 11 election20:07
zanebare there figures somewhere on which projects have how many ATCs?20:07
markwash(not that it matters as much, but) my second is categories + directly elected, but not "PTL" categories20:07
ttxmarkmcclain: why ?20:07
ttxmarkmcclain: diversity ?20:07
ttxwould like to make sure we capture your wariness accurately :)20:08
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markmcclainyeah… I think that there needs to a be a certain level of enforced diversity20:08
russellbi'm expecting we'd elect 11 smart folks who deeply care about cross-project success, and would consult the right people depending on the issue20:08
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vishysorry i'm late20:09
ttxIt's difficult to enforce diversity and stay simple, so you have to pick one or the other. Personally I care more about representativity and size, so both models would be acceptable for me20:09
notmynamerussellb: I'd expect that too, but isn't a point of setting up these rules to protect against the situation when our expectations aren't met?20:09
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russellbnotmyname: i'd just like to see an actual problem before making it overly complex20:09
ttxnotmyname: some see simplicity as a key goal... so creating complex rules to prevent inexistant problems is seen as a net negative20:10
notmynamerussellb: I agree, but I'd also like to avoid awkward situations before they happen. eg "no company may have more than 2 seats"20:10
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russellbdo you feel people represent company interests on the TC as opposed to how they personally feel for broad success of OpenStack?20:11
russellbI do not20:11
ttxnotmyname: which model(s) do you prefer ?20:11
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russellbi think if anyone is seen to be representing their company, they should not be re-elected20:12
ttxmarkmcclain: same question -- would the "categories + directly elected" model have your preference ?20:12
russellbsomeone said that on the ML, and I agree20:12
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notmynamettx: I think I could go either way. I have more concerns over the "all directly elected" model, and those have to do with project representation (especially if the "PTL can override" rule still exists)20:12
ttxrussellb: yeah, that should be seen as a bug, not a feature20:12
notmynamerussellb: ok, a "no more than 2 ATCs from a single project" ;-)20:13
markwash_ack :-/ got caught on the wrong side of a netsplit20:13
markmcclainttx: yeah I like the cat+direct elect mix20:13
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markmcnotmyname, I'd like to see more people contributing across projects, that rule would discourage it20:13
russellbnotmyname: what if you're an ATC across many/most projects?20:14
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notmynamenote the winking ;-)20:14
ttxnotmyname: the only "control" the TC has over projects is about making them part of "OpenStack" or not. We don't have +2 on the repos.20:14
notmynamepoint being, I think some simplicity is worth sacrificing for better representation20:14
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ttxso there is a nuclear option, but otherwise PTLs and core people have control over their project20:15
notmynamettx: and that's my point there. if the TC doesn't have representation from a particular subgroup, then it hurts the overall group (ie encourages divisions)20:15
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jgriffit1notmyname: I'm mixed TBH, I don't know how often the TC steps in on a project20:16
ttxjgriffit1: never happened.20:16
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notmynameit's noble to hope for more cross-project contributions, but I don't think it's realistic.20:16
dolphmjgriffit1: good point20:16
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jgriffit1ttx: well then it a non-issue for sure20:16
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russellbnotmyname: certainly for all the projects that are using oslo, it's very common to work cross project20:17
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russellbnotmyname: i actually feel like swift is the exception in that area, unfortunately20:17
bcwaldonmarkwash: pong20:17
markwash_I'm a little meh oh categories being project-oriented, can somebody speak to the sense of that?20:17
dolphmrussellb: +120:17
notmynamemarkwash_: it's a hash function to lower the total number of members20:18
ttxSo, if we except markmc... does everyone put "All-directly 11" and "categorized+6" at the top two spots of their preference list ?20:18
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ttxTrying to reduce the options20:18
markwashdid we bisect?20:18
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russellbttx: i'm with markmc on my option #220:18
markmcdo we have a proposed category list?20:19
markwashttx: I'd have to know the categories first20:19
dolphmttx: yes20:19
jgriffit1ttx: I'm fine with either, think I prefer #220:19
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jgriffit1markwash: people with blonde hair versus red20:19
markwashI'm in both categories!20:19
markwasheverything is true of the null set :-)20:19
annegentle-webI'm fine with either "best ptl" or "categories"20:19
zanebthe best 7 PTLs seems marginally better than categorised to me20:20
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* annegentle-web read eavesdrop but might not be caught up20:20
zanebalthough I'm not sure it's helpful to have a hard link between being a PTL and being on the TC - they seem like very different jobs20:20
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ttxok, so "best ptls+5" has supporters20:20
zanebPTL seems to be more about project management20:20
markwashzaneb: +10 very different it seems20:20
markmcclainI'd be fine with best PTLs too20:20
ttxzaneb: +1020:20
zanebTC should be technical20:20
annegentle-webCategories got up to 12 first draft...20:20
annegentle-web#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-January/004539.html20:20
bcwaldon_zaneb: ttx and I were just talking about that - I wanted to suggest we actually drop the T from PTL20:20
russellbbcwaldon_: i've wondered that myself, as well20:21
bcwaldon_but that's might be a conversation for a different time20:21
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russellbmy PTL work is much more about project management than technical work20:21
jgriffit1bcwaldon_: throws the chaos grenade and runs20:21
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jgriffit1can we save that discussion for another day maybe :)20:21
* russellb nods20:21
jgriffit1we could rat hole I think20:21
dolphm+1 for saving20:21
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zanebI think having any representative from core on a project > having the PTL from a project on the TC20:22
markwashI really like cross-cutting concerns for categories, rather than projects for categories20:22
ttxWell that's the benefit of the direct election... you don't draw so many lines implying other rules20:22
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annegentle-webmordred: how does programs/projects work well in either election system?20:23
zanebmarkwash: those seem really complex to manage in comparison though :/20:23
markmcannegentle-web, programs would have PTLs20:23
vishyrussellb: but how are you going to convince someone else to do the work if you remove the T?20:23
russellbthe amount of time spent in this round of discussion, as well as the last one, discussing the idea of categories should be telling20:23
dolphmso, in a all-directly elected 11, all ATC's across all projects would be able to vote on all TC members?20:23
mordredannegentle-web: what markmc said20:23
annegentle-webmarkmc: ok tx20:23
annegentle-webthx even20:23
ttxdolphm: yes20:23
russellbvishy: *shrug* can discuss another time i guess :)20:23
markwashzaneb: russellb: fair points20:24
markwashwhich brings us back to direct20:24
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zaneba shardy's proxy, I'm compelled to bring up the concern that direct election will result in ~11 Nova developers on the TC20:24
mordredso - I think that's fair20:24
markmcthe amount of ongoing bikesheding we'll have with categories just won't be worth it20:25
ttxzaneb: except the current directly-elected seats prove otherwise20:25
mordredbut I'd like to point out that annegentle-web and I and ttx are all on here20:25
russellbmarkmc: +120:25
russellbit's killing me20:25
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annegentle-webzaneb: niceone20:25
russellbmordred: +1, with really high votes, because you guys are clearly amazing candidates to engage in cross project issues20:25
annegentle-webrussellb: aw I like naming things :)20:25
ttxalso it's likely that we would engage with representative condorcet, once we investigate how well it performs, further limiting block voting20:26
markmczaneb, you're not the first to say that, but I really doubt that - do a thought experiment with e.g. posters to openstack-dev and see what names you come up with20:26
zanebmordred: and that's great, the issue would be for smaller projects20:26
zanebi.e. things that don't cut across multiple areas20:26
mordredzaneb: you know I got your back :)20:26
markwashfor me, "right categories" > direct 11 > "wrong categories", but we'll always tend towards wrong categories in time, so direct feels better20:26
ttxzaneb: I actually think we'd end up with 11 core-project figures.20:26
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vishymordred: agreed, we have proven with past elections that nova doesn't win all the elected seats.20:26
ttx+ one or two pure Nova devs :)20:27
mordredzaneb: I think it we try to tie geting a TC seat to projects, we'll wind up rejecting smaller projects because epople don't want a huge tc20:27
mordredand I think that's worse for the 'small' projects in the long run20:27
mordredalso - anybody can come pipe up during this meeting20:27
zanebnot picking on dolphm, but there are only like 5 people smart enough to work on keystone. yet it seems pretty important to me that it be represented20:27
lifelessoh  hai20:27
lifelesspiping up20:27
jgriffit1mordred: I'm still confused on what the TC's are doing to projects that this is a concern?20:27
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lifelesstripleo is one of those small projects20:27
jgriffit1mordred: we seem to spend most of our time deciding what to vote on as we're doing now20:28
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lifelessrussellb: indeed20:28
mordredjgriffit1: yeah. I agree20:28
annegentle-webone logistic aspect I realized when doing some math is that there's never 11 directly elected at once. Just five or six.20:28
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annegentle-webso the "all nova all the time" might be lessened as a risk20:29
ttxI'd like a quick show of hands: could you all tell which models are acceptable to you, so that we see which models emerge as favorites and clarify a bit20:29
lifelessttx: also nova will lose leverage as it gets a narrower focus - when we finally kill nova volume and nova network.20:29
* ttx says 1. "All-directly-elected 11" and 2. "Categorized + 7"20:30
markmc1) all 11, 2) best PTLs, 3) categories20:30
russellb1) directly elected, distant 2) best PTLS + whatever, a very very distant 3) categories20:30
annegentle-webttx: one more question. How is "best" PTL calculated -- must number of votes?20:30
mordred1. "All-directly-elected 11" and 2. "Categorized + 7"20:30
ttxmarkmc, russellb: "categories" or "categories + 7" ?20:30
markmcttx, latter20:30
dolphm1) torn between directly elected 11 and categorized+720:30
russellbi hate it so much i don't even care20:31
jgriffit1best PTL's +20:31
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markmcrussellb, more than the current model ?20:31
markmcclain1. best PTLs 2) cat+7 3) direct 1120:31
markwash1) good categories + N, 2) direct 1120:31
jd__1. "All-directly-elected 11" and 2. "Categorized + 7"20:31
russellbooh ... good question ... no.  so, categories+7 > current20:31
* dolphm s/categorized/best PTLs/20:31
markmcrussellb, thought so :)20:31
notmynamecategories+X or direct elected20:31
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mordredttx: it's feeling like perhaps we should do a condorcet vote of three choices here20:32
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russellbbasically no consensus at all ...20:32
jgriffit1mordred: :)20:32
dolphmmordred: do it!20:32
markmcwell, I don't see anyone saying they want it to stay as it is20:32
ttxmordred: yeah, unless we can narrow down to 2 :)20:32
markmcthat's consensus20:32
mordredmarkmc: ++20:32
russellbmarkmc: +120:32
annegentle-webis there a directly elected 13 option?20:32
markmcand a lot of people not hugely opposed to any of the 3 leading options20:32
ttxannegentle: I see it as an implementation detail20:33
mordredyeah. so I think we honestly need to do a ranked vote of the three leading options20:33
mordredand then just leave it at that20:33
ttxmordred: what would be the 3rd leading option ?20:33
dolphmannegentle-web: does the number of members affect your opinion on how they're allocated?20:33
annegentle-webI slightly prefer 6 Categories + 7 directly elected over directly 11.20:33
mordredttx: direct, cat+7, best ptl+20:33
markmcmordred, I object to your ordering!20:33
* markmc chuckles20:34
annegentle-webdolphm: more that I want to ensure people aren't concerned of teh diff between 13 and 11 TC members (it just won't matter)20:34
mordredor, let's call it direct, cat+ and ptl+ - and leave specifics on how many humans a type has as a detail20:34
ttxmordred: so, technically, motions are affirmative votes (agree or not agree), but I guess we can pick the motion using condorcet and see if it gets 2.3 of the votes afterwarrds20:34
mordredttx: zomg20:34
mordredttx: ok20:34
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* mordred makes a motion that we do a condorcet vote, and then unanimously affirm the output of that vote20:35
ttxOh, the other way around. interesting.20:35
ttxisn't governance fun20:35
markmcmordred, on a point of order, you can't unilaterally unanimously anything20:35
jgriffit1keep this up you won't get 13 people willing to run :)20:35
* mordred shoots markmc in the head20:35
ttxI'm ready to accept condorcet results over that set of 320:36
zanebstepping back a little, why are we even worried about numbers? Everybody is already allowed/encouraged to participate in this meeting. The thing you have to be a TC member for - the voting part - is the only thing that already does scale20:36
ttxdo we have 2/3 of our members agreeing on that ?20:36
jgriffit1ttx: I agree20:36
russellbi'd rather know what i'm affirming20:36
russellbso, the earlier suggestion20:36
dolphmttx: i agree20:36
mordredzaneb: I think the thing is that we like to avoid voting when we can20:37
zanebmordred: so it doesn't matter who is on the TC at all then?20:37
ttxalso we ahve the option to make the meeting +v if we can't have a discussion anymore20:37
mordredzaneb: except for when it does20:37
ttxso far people are behaving, which is great20:37
ttxlooks like we don't have 2/3 in support of accepting whatever comes out of the condorcet poll of the three mentioned options20:38
ttxspeak now or we'll do it in two steps20:38
jgriffit1ttx: would it help if I voted 5 times20:38
markwashwas I supposed to #agree or something?20:39
mordredttx: how about we do a #vote on the thign above20:39
* markwash was waiting for the starting gun20:39
mordredI tihnk it's not clear how you're counting20:39
annegentle-webI'm confused.20:39
ttxmordred: ok20:39
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gabrielhurleyalso, are we voting on voting?20:39
* annegentle is also confused20:39
russellbi think so.20:40
markmcgabrielhurley, that's exactly what we're doing20:40
markwashannegentle-web died of confusion20:40
markwashonly to be reborn20:40
gabrielhurleyif you're gonna vote on something, then make it clear we need to respond20:40
annegentlemarkwash: snort20:40
ttxLet's vote on "let's have a condorcet poll with the direct, cat+ and ptl+ options and accept whatever comes out of it"20:40
mordredyes please20:40
ttxwe need 2/3 support otherwise we'll do it the other way around20:40
annegentlewho are the voters in the poll?20:40
mordredthe tc20:40
markwashwhat's the other way around?20:40
ttx2/3 affirmative votes. TC members obviously20:41
annegentlemordred: ok20:41
russellbother way around: condorcet vote, then a vote to affirm the result20:41
russellb(or decline and go back to drawing board)20:41
annegentlewhy does it have to be condorcet?20:41
jgriffit13 votes to get to a vote... sigh20:41
markwashrussellb: thanks20:41
mordredannegentle: because we have three options20:41
ttx#startvote let's have a condorcet poll with the direct, cat+ and ptl+ options and accept whatever comes out of it? yes, no, abstain20:41
dolphmannegentle: because there's 3 options, and there's no clear best 220:41
annegentlemordred: ok, lightbulb, thanks20:41
openstackBegin voting on: let's have a condorcet poll with the direct, cat+ and ptl+ options and accept whatever comes out of it? Valid vote options are yes, no, abstain.20:41
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.20:41
zanebI propose we form a subcommittee to vote on how we will vote20:41
* zaneb runs20:41
dolphm#vote yes20:41
russellb#vote no20:41
ttx#vote yes20:41
mordred#vote yes20:41
jgriffit1#vote yes20:42
annegentle#vote yes20:42
markwash#vote yes20:42
markmcclain#vote no20:42
zaneb#vote abstain20:42
gabrielhurley#vote yes20:42
russellbwould you all actually be happy enough with any result?  or do you just want it over?20:42
markmc#vote abstain20:42
russellbjust making sure.20:42
* ttx reads his copy of the charter to figure out if its enough20:42
dolphmrussellb: both20:42
notmyname#vote yes20:42
mordredrussellb: I want to do a proper vote on the items20:42
mordredrussellb: I don't think a straight IRC vote will work20:42
mordredrussellb: so, whatever the outcome of the vote is, is the outcome of us voting20:43
ttxwe need 10 yes, do we have them20:43
mordredrussellb: so I will accept it, same as any vote20:43
ttxno we don't20:43
ttxanyone left to vote ?20:43
ttxvishy: ?20:43
vishy#vote abstain20:43
jd__#vote yes20:44
openstackVoted on "let's have a condorcet poll with the direct, cat+ and ptl+ options and accept whatever comes out of it?" Results are20:44
vishymisread the vote20:44
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openstackyes (8): ttx, notmyname, annegentle, markwash, mordred, gabrielhurley, dolphm, jgriffit120:44
openstackabstain (3): markmc, zaneb, vishy20:44
openstackno (2): russellb, markmcclain20:44
gabrielhurleyI blame the abstainers20:44
dolphmvishy: haha20:44
ttxwe needed 10 yes, and even counting jd that's 920:44
markmcgabrielhurley, for our wisdom?20:44
gabrielhurleyfor perpetuating this debate on voting20:45
ttxso unless people regret their vote we'll do it the other way around. Condorcet on the 3 options, then draft a motion and approve it 2/320:45
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gabrielhurleythough perhaps refusing to vote on a vote is a wise statement of principle...20:45
mordredgabrielhurley: heh20:45
annegentlegabrielhurley: heh20:45
ttxlet's go to the next topic, unless someone has more to say on this one20:45
markwashI got something to say!20:46
markwashno wait, nevermind20:46
ttx#topic Open discussion: where does diskimage-builder fit ?20:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion: where does diskimage-builder fit ? (Meeting topic: tc)"20:46
ttxThis discussion is a bit linked to the outcome of the previous one20:46
ttxlifeless asked where diskimage-builder should fit at:20:46
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-May/009539.html20:46
ttxShould it go through incubation and be an integrated project ? Should it be shipped as part of Glance ? as an Oslo library ? as a by-product of a TripleO program ?20:46
ttxAs long as there are rights attached to specific types of projects (think PTL seats on the TC) this question is actually a bit loaded20:47
ttx(It's not as important if we opt for a model which requires less classification)20:47
markwashas somebody who hears a lot about images and interoperability, I think DiB is an awesome tool that deserves some sort of OS blessing of sorts20:47
ttx(Then I think it's safe to consider TripleO a "program" and diskimage-builder a deliverable of that "program")20:47
markwashthat's right "sort of * of sorts"20:47
annegentlewhy not within glance?20:47
ttxannegentle: define "within"20:48
ttxas a separate deliverable of the Glance team ?20:48
zanebso, to clarify, we're not envisioning diskimage-builder as a foundation for image building as a service, right?20:48
annegentlemaybe it should be 'part of' glance in the same way python-glanceclient is 'part of' glance.20:48
ttxas a binary in glance tarball itself ?20:48
mordredzaneb: it has been discussed20:48
annegentle(quoting from lifeless 's email)20:48
mordredzaneb: but no work in that direction has happened20:48
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markwashannegentle: I'm open to that, but people have pointed out that glance is really api-focused20:48
ttxannegentle: only makes sense if that's the same team working on it20:49
annegentlemarkwash: ok20:49
markwashrather than getting down to the crunchy image bits20:49
ttxprojects are TEAMS.20:49
markwashwe are pretty agnostic about the bits of the image generaly20:49
ttxgroups of people working on the same thing20:49
russellbI really like the idea of TripleO as a program with DiB as a deliverable20:49
mordredme too - it matches how oslo is working20:49
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zanebit seems to me that DiB fits very comfortably in TripleO20:49
ttxrussellb: +120:49
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mordredand it has an incubator repo as well20:49
annegentleI think a program with a deliverable makes sense20:49
zanebrussellb: +120:49
markwashI'm interestd in TripleO but would still want to know more20:49
markmcyeah, tripleo definitely seems like the big user of di-b20:49
markmcand most overlap in people working on it20:50
lifelessmarkwash: what would you like to know?20:50
ttxso the linked question is.. do we bless programs ?20:50
lifelessI'm here and can type to it20:50
mordredmarkmc: although reddwarf and others are starting to use it as well20:50
annegentlejust trying to look at it from a consumer perspective - "where do I get an image builder?" they might go to glance20:50
markmcmordred, optionally?20:50
ttxdoes a program goves you ATC rigths ?20:50
markmcttx, I think it would, yes20:50
mordredmarkmc: no. as the basis for how they build the images they use with their guest in them20:50
markwashlifeless: is it a set of deliverables for helping deploy openstack on openstack? or something more monolithic?20:50
ttxare the deliverables of a program covered by the vulnerability management team ?20:50
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lifelessmarkwash: it's a set of deliverables20:51
markmcmordred, but not at runtime, right ?20:51
ttxif it gives ATC rights, then the TC needs to bless them20:51
mordredmarkmc: so at the moment, reddwarf depends on dib as best as I understand it20:51
mordredmarkmc: I don't know what you mean?20:51
ttx(and program needs to accept oversight of the TC)20:51
lifelessmarkwash: some like dib are new code trees, others like contriutions to heat and nova are patches to existing openstack projects20:51
markmcmordred, building a guest image is more of a setup step, and I assume you could use any image builder20:51
mordredmarkmc: yes. I suppose you are completely right20:52
markmcmordred, as opposed to reddwarf calling out to di-b while processing an API request20:52
markwashlifeless: cool, makes sense then20:52
lifelessmarkmc: so reddwarf build a guest image as part of their test suite,a nd execute it.20:52
mordredmarkmc: totally20:52
markmcwhereas di-b seems like more of a runtime dep for tripleo20:52
markwashlifeless: are there some long-term-plan docs / vision out there somewhere I could read?20:52
lifelessmarkmc: you can use any iamge builder; and we have a narrow definition for just that reason.20:52
ttxlifeless: ok, so it seems dib belongs in the tripleo program, we just need to finalize introducing the concept of programs first20:52
lifelessmarkwash: certainly. http://github.com/tripleo/incubator20:52
jd__do we know more about the reddwarf/dib dependency? I find this odd at first glance (no pun intended)20:52
markwashlifeless: ty!20:52
ttxis that a good summary ? ^20:52
lifelessttx: works for me.20:52
markmclifeless, yeah, but that would mean considering di-b as a test tool dependency20:53
zanebttx: +120:53
lifelessmarkmc: for reddwarf it is. it's a runtime dep for tripleo.20:53
markmclifeless, right20:53
lifelessmarkmc: I'm not happy with di-b on stackforge when it's a CI dep for incubated/integrated project(s).20:53
lifelessmarkmc: which is why I mailed the list :).20:54
markwashttx: intriguing. . do you have summary of "program vs project" on hand somewhere?20:54
* markwash is sorry if he just wasn't doing his homework. . .20:54
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markmclifeless, fair enough20:54
ttxmarkwash: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1t1t2Aj1rIvxNnIvbjsiTPe5Szpx-lXBpW1dbL4K08cE/edit?usp=sharing20:54
ttxeveryone likes a drawing20:54
ttxmarkwash: still very much WIP20:54
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ttxtrying to understand all the consequences20:54
markmcjust happened to have that "on hand", heh ?20:55
ttxworked on taht today20:55
ttxI've seen the future20:55
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ttxthe interesting parts are actually in the empty spaces. Like where does the VMT support end ? What do we call the horizontal teams ?20:55
markmcttx, I'll talk to you tomorrow about better colours for the colour blind :)20:55
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zanebif moving to direct TC elections means we can get rid of all these ridiculous legalistic subcategories of names, then I will vote for it right now20:56
ttxzaneb: see, you're starting to get it20:56
jgriffit1ttx: how about you just tell us what you saw in the future and we can skip the vote :)20:56
ttxmarkmc: was kinda hoping that "all-directed 11" would get so plebiscited that the whole drawing would be useless20:56
markmcttx, heh20:57
lifelessso tripleo is about operating/deploying openstack - with a particular focus on eating-own-dogfood all the way up the stack.20:57
lifelessjust for clarity20:57
markmcttx, I'm thinking programs would be a useful concept anyway20:57
annegentlettx: yay for data in diagrams20:57
zanebttx: I welcome our new Nova overlords ;D20:57
* russellb isghs20:57
russellbnova people are evil, too, watch out20:58
ttxmarkmc: sure20:58
ttx#agree dib belongs in the tripleo program, we just need to finalize introducing the concept of programs first ?20:58
annegentlesounds right20:59
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ttxalso known as "lifeless, please wait while we catch up20:59
ttx#action ttx to set up TC condorcet poll to help select the model that will be put on the TC motion20:59
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ttxone more minute21:00
mordred#action ttx to buy mordred some beer21:00
ttxerr not21:00
mordreddoes that work?21:00
jd__you wish21:00
jgriffit1If it does I'm setting up an action item for mordred to buy me multiple beers21:00
ttxOnly if it is Icehouse beer21:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings"21:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  4 21:00:55 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-06-04-20.03.html21:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-06-04-20.03.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-06-04-20.03.log.html21:01
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ttxCan't wait until we are over this governance refresh :)21:01
jgriffit1ttx: +121:01
ttxmarkmc, dolphm, notmyname, jd__, markwash, jgriffith, russellb, zaneb, gabrielhurley, markmcclain: still around ?21:01
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markwasho/ \o21:02
ttxjgriffit1: protip: don't ever become a PSF fellow21:02
ttx#startmeeting project21:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  4 21:02:20 2013 UTC.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)"21:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'project'21:02
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* russellb does his usual clean up of nova blueprints out from under ttx21:02
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting21:02
ttx#topic General stuff21:02
*** openstack changes topic to "General stuff (Meeting topic: project)"21:02
ttxLast week we published the havana-1 milestone... went mostly OK, except a regression was missed in Heat21:03
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ttxwhich streeses again the need for more integration tests there21:03
zanebwe have folks working on tempest integration21:03
ttx#info The "I" release will be named "Icehouse"21:03
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ttx(not my choice)21:03
zanebwhich will hopefully resolve a lot of those issues21:03
ttxWe'll probably skip next week's meeting, unless swift is ready to release...21:03
notmynamenot by next week21:04
ttxnotmyname: awesome :)21:04
ttxadam_g: status for 2013.1.2 stable release ?21:04
adam_g_FYI! stable/grizzly branches are frozen for 2013.1.2 release this Thursday.  Don't be offended if you have a -2 on your merge until branches are open.  Any testing on the current stable/grizzly branches is welcome prior to release.21:04
markmcadam_g_, nice :)21:04
adam_g_If there's anything critical that needs in 2013.1.2 please get in touch quick!21:04
russellbadam_g_: there was a critical nova patch21:05
ttx#info If there's anything critical that needs in 2013.1.2 please get in touch with adam_g quick!21:05
russellbadam_g_: that i had proposed but you -2'd :-)21:05
adam_g_russellb, which?21:05
russellbadam_g_: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/31244/21:05
russellbadam_g_: regression that has billing implications21:05
dolphmadam_g_: i probably have one from keystone21:05
adam_g_russellb, i dont think we have a formal way of requesting an exception for the stable freezes, so apologies for the -221:05
dolphmadam_g_: https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/117064921:06
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1170649 in keystone "Removing a user from a project would result to all members of that project to be removed" [Critical,In progress]21:06
ttxdolphm: sounds embarassing21:06
adam_g_dolphm, ack, i'll take a look21:06
dolphmttx: criticals always are!21:06
russellbpeople get very unhappy if they underbill customers is all, heh21:06
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ttxannegentle: something about docs ?21:07
annegentle#info Docs are now automatically generating nova.conf config options and inserting into the Compute Admin Manual manually, will get the rest of it automated.21:07
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adam_g_russellb, dolphm i'll get an email to the stable list today with possible exceptions. keep an eye out21:08
annegentleand a new intern welcome: We have Terri Yu working on Ceiliometer with Julian Danjou (jd__) through the GNOME Outreach Program for Women, welcome terriyu!21:08
russellbadam_g_: cool thanks!21:08
annegentlettx: that's all I've got21:08
ttxwelcome terriyu!21:08
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ttxjeblair/mordred, sdague/davidkranz: news from Infra/QA teams^Wprograms ?21:09
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jeblairttx: nack21:09
ttxok then let's go project-specific21:10
ttx#topic Oslo status21:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Oslo status (Meeting topic: project)"21:10
ttxmarkmc: hi!21:10
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/oslo/+milestone/havana-221:10
* markmc knows he's behind on things21:10
* ttx refreshes21:10
ttxYou've got a number of blueprints there that are missing the "havana" series goal21:10
ttxoslo-scheduler, oslo-sqlalchemy-utils, service-restart, common-heartbeat-driver, oslo-base-manager21:11
ttxThe last two are also missing priority set21:11
markmcyeah, I only noticed them earlier21:11
markmcwill look properly tomorrow21:11
ttx14 blueprints is a bit ambitious compared to the 5 delivered in H1...21:11
markmcI always miss these because I never get notifications of new blueprints21:11
ttxThere is room in H3 for deferring, fwiw. You've got 3 blueprints assigned to you, for example21:11
markmcok, cool21:11
ttxDid you make progress unblocking trusted-messaging ?21:12
markmcnone jump out at me as being totally unrealistic at this point21:12
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ttxis it still a likely H2 target ?21:12
markmcno, I haven't heard an update on the key distribution server work21:12
ttxI'd rather not announce it and get people excited if we see no way of delivering it in the current state of affairs...21:12
markmcyeah, I'll catch up with simo again21:12
markmcthe oslo side of things are in pretty good shape for it21:13
ttxmarkmc: anything you wanted to raise ?21:13
dolphmmarkmc: i'm told that it's still in progress, but not ready for review21:13
markmcnot really21:13
markmcbit exhausted after writing this today: http://blogs.gnome.org/markmc/2013/06/04/async-io-and-python/21:13
markmcit's some investigation work for the oslo messaging work21:13
markmcothers should find it useful too, I hope21:13
markmcdolphm, cool21:13
russellbyou had a quantum thing last week, with oslo.config, can't remember details21:13
russellbbut it affected a nova patch series, too21:13
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russellbthat get cleared up?21:14
markmcvery nearly21:14
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russellbok cool21:14
markmcwe need this pbr fix https://review.openstack.org/#/c/30938/21:14
markmcmordred is pushing a new release asap21:14
ttxOther questions about Oslo ?21:14
mordredthere's another thing I need to fix before releasing a new pbr21:15
mordredbut yeah21:15
markmcok, cool21:15
mordredand I tihnk that it might be a bug in a new releaes of distributer21:15
mordredwhich is making me cry21:15
ttx#topic Keystone status21:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Keystone status (Meeting topic: project)"21:15
ttxdolphm: o/21:16
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/havana-221:16
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ttxdolphm: you deferred store-quota-data ?21:16
dolphmi dropped https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/store-quota-data from havana altogether, as it's api-impacting and i'd like to have an api-level feature freeze at the end of m2... it doesn't look like there's much momentum behind that bp at this point21:17
ttxapi-level feature freeze at the end of m2++21:17
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ttxI think that ll looks good21:18
ttxdolphm: Anything more about Keystone ?21:18
dolphmnot unless you want to hear about bugs21:18
ttxif you tell me about bugs I'll tell you about vulnerabilities21:19
ttxQuestions anyone ?21:19
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ttx#topic Ceilometer status21:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Ceilometer status (Meeting topic: project)"21:19
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ttxjd__: hey21:19
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/ceilometer/+milestone/havana-221:19
ttxI see you've got 8 blueprints assigned to you (and Eoghan's got 3) -- feeling confident ?21:20
jd__for mine, pretty21:20
jd__I can't tell for others unfortunately21:21
ttxwe'll see progress in two weeks21:21
ttxPlan is looking good now21:21
ttxjd__: anything you wanted to mention ?21:21
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jd__we're good :)21:22
ttxQuestions on Ceilometer ?21:22
ttx#topic Swift status21:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Swift status (Meeting topic: project)"21:22
ttxnotmyname: o/21:23
ttxnotmyname: no new release in sight yet ?21:23
notmynameI don't think I have anything new to report this week21:23
notmynamestill waiting for reviews on the final patches for this release21:23
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notmynamebut they aren't trivial (and we're all busy), so it takes a while21:23
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ttxnotmyname: you won't want to push it especially on the week I intended to skip this meeting on :)21:23
notmynameheh, no. if it's not done by now, it won't be ready for release next week21:24
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ttxwill you keep the 1.8.1 numbering, or switch to 1.9.0 ?21:25
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notmynameprobably 1.921:25
ttxyeah, given the feature set21:25
ttxnotmyname: anything else you wanted to raise ?21:25
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notmynameno, I'm good21:25
ttxQuestions about Swift ?21:25
ttx#topic Glance status21:26
*** openstack changes topic to "Glance status (Meeting topic: project)"21:26
ttxmarkwash: o/21:26
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/glance/+milestone/havana-221:26
markwashttx: hi hi!21:26
ttxuse-oslo-common-db-code was proposed to h2 @ https://blueprints.launchpad.net/glance/havana/+setgoals21:26
markwashthanks again for that link21:26
markwashI've been in discussion with boris21:26
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ttxok, just confirm or deny it sometimes in the next 2 weeks21:27
ttx11 blueprints sounds a bit ambitious compared to the 2 completed in H1...21:27
ttxbut then, those are almost all assigned to different people (except two for Iccha Sethi)21:27
ttxand there is a bit of room in H3 in case of spillover21:27
markwashI expect spillover, but can't pick which will spill yet21:28
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ttxhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/glance/+spec/membership-policy has code proposed now... should we target it to H2 too ?21:28
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markwashsorry, thought I had already done that. . yes (and done)21:29
ttxmarkwash: anything you wanted to mention ?21:29
markwashnot as such21:29
ttxQuestions on Glance ?21:29
markwashone thing21:29
markwashthanks to the swift folks for looking into ACLs updates21:29
ttxyeah, cross-project love21:30
markwashstruggling to find the link right now21:30
markwashbut it will fix one of our bugs with the multi-tenant swift store21:30
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ttx#topic Quantum status21:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Quantum status (Meeting topic: project)"21:30
ttxmarkmcclain: hi!21:30
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/quantum/+milestone/havana-221:30
ttxYay, 49 blueprints!21:31
markmcclainway too many BPs for H221:31
ttxIndeed, that's a decent increase compared to the 17 which were delivered during H1 :)21:31
ttxThere is also a bit of oversubscription with a lot of assignees having 4 to 7 blueprints assigned...21:31
markmcclainyeah.. h2 seemed to be a popular place to cram things in21:31
ttx2 of those don't have an assignee set yet21:32
markmcclainoops.. I missed those 221:32
markmcclainour subteams are using this week to revise the plan to a realistic number of BPs for h221:32
ttxhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/quantum/+spec/provider-router is actually not even proposed to havana21:33
* ttx curses the series goal / milestone target LP impedence mismatch 21:33
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ttxmarkmcclain: some of them don't have the priority set too :)21:33
markmcclainyeah we're stilling reviewing that blueprint21:34
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markmcclainI'll clean up the priorities21:34
ttxAbout remove-use-of-quantum: did you send in new names ? I'd like this one to be closed as early in H2 as possible21:35
ttxso that we don't affect the end of milestone21:35
ttxand merge when the waters are calm21:35
markmcclainyeah.. I was waiting feedback on some of the new candidates21:35
markmcclainI've got a new short list to send over21:36
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ttxmarkmcclain: anything you wanted to raise ?21:36
markmcclainnot at this time21:36
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ttxQuestions on Quantum ?21:37
ttx#topic Cinder status21:37
*** openstack changes topic to "Cinder status (Meeting topic: project)"21:37
ttxjgriffith: hola!21:37
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/cinder/+milestone/havana-221:37
ttxOK, you win. This is the most significant increase in velocity: 2 blueprints completed in H1, 29 targeted to H221:38
jgriffithoptimistic I think21:38
ttxDo you expect a lot of losses along the way ?21:38
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ttxjgriffith: For those you have no idea whether they will be completed, I think it's fine to set them to "Low" and not target them to the milestone until they are done...21:38
jgriffithttx: ahh.. excellent!21:38
jgriffithttx: I have a list ;)21:38
ttxlike stuff from random teams you never heard of before21:38
ttxI /think/ that's more accurate than letting them in the milestone and praying21:39
jgriffithconsidering many are slips from H1 anyway :)21:39
ttxwhen it's people you know it's good to have it "in", but in your case...21:39
jgriffithI'm not overly optimistic in their ability to deliver at this point :)21:39
ttxvolume-host-attching, db-archiving, huawei-hvs-volume-driver need to be confirmed in the havana series goal @ https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/havana/+setgoals21:39
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jgriffithI think I tricked ya and updated that while you were on quantum :)21:40
ttxoh, you cleared that21:40
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ttxSome still need an assignee :P21:41
jgriffithI'll pull those for sure21:41
ttxDid you make progress with avishay on splitting volume-migration ?21:41
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jgriffithttx: I've spoken to him about it, but he doesn't know how he'd split it21:42
jgriffithttx: we should be discussing it again tomorrow21:42
ttxOK. Was also wondering if db-session-cleanup and hds-hus-iscsi-cinder-driver were not completed ? You can look them up off-meeting21:42
jgriffithI'll see if I can help him figure out a way to clean it21:42
jgriffithThey are21:42
ttxjgriffith: anything on your mind ?21:42
jgriffithI'm fixing that up now21:42
jgriffithJust having a ball :)21:42
ttxQuestions on Cinder ?21:42
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ttx#topic Nova status21:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Nova status (Meeting topic: project)"21:42
ttxrussellb: hey21:42
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/nova/+milestone/havana-221:43
russellb73 blueprints ...21:43
ttxNew world record, 73 blueprints (compared to 16 delivered in H1)21:43
russellba bit insane.21:43
ttxThat said, 10 of them are Christopher Yeoh's21:43
russellbyeah, v3-api work was broken up well21:43
ttxI suspect (hope) those are small bits21:43
ttxAnd 6 of them were not in the series goal when I checked earlier:21:44
ttxuser-locale-api, async-network-alloc, improve-vmware-disk-usage, revert-resize-force-option, encrypt-cinder-volumes, list-saving-images-through-admin-api21:44
russellbyeah, fixed those up at beginning of meeting21:44
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russellbthis meeting is my reminder to do housekeeping :-/21:44
russellbtry to do it during the week too, but it's a lot21:44
ttxrussellb: is it all known parties placing features in H2 ? Or more the Cinder "unknown people" case ?21:45
russellbso a ton of blueprints, but all with someone who has theoretically committed to doing the work21:45
ttxso, the former21:45
russellbmostly known21:45
ttxwell, review early21:45
* russellb nods21:45
ttxrussellb: anything else you wanted to mention ?21:45
russellbwill be pushing on it every week21:45
russellbnope ...21:45
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ttxAny question on Nova ?21:46
ttx#topic Heat status21:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Heat status (Meeting topic: project)"21:46
ttxzaneb: o/21:46
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/havana-221:46
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ttxDo you have assignees for stack-metadata & discover-catalog-resources ?21:47
zanebI think Randall was going to assign someone for those21:47
zanebbut he doesn't have rights to set it in launchpad21:47
zanebso we'll have to check back with him whose names he wants on it21:47
ttxzaneb: ok... fix it in the next week, no urgency21:48
zanebsorry - that's just for the stack metadata21:48
zanebmisread the other one21:48
zanebI don't think we have anyone assigned for that21:48
ttxif nobody signed up to do it, maybe deferring to H3 would be more realistic21:49
zanebSpamapS raised it but it wasn't clear to me if he was going to work on it21:49
ttxmaybe talk about it at next Heat meeting21:49
ttxLooking into heat-trusts... do we have progress on keystoneclient side yet ?21:49
zanebok, will do21:49
ttxdolphm: ?21:49
ttx"Blocked on keystoneclient support for trusts"21:49
dolphmayoung: ^?21:49
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dolphmi'm not aware of anything in review21:50
dolphmi imagine ayoung would be working on trust support in keystoneclient, but haven't heard anything either way21:50
SpamapSI want to work on those..21:51
SpamapSbut they are secondary targets21:51
ttxdolphm: could you check and report back to zaneb or shardy ? Maybe add a comment on that blueprint whiteboard21:51
dolphmSpamapS: yours if you want it- https://blueprints.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+spec/delegation-impersonation-support21:51
ttxdolphm: I think he is answering another question21:51
zanebdolphm: bad luck ;)21:51
dolphmzaneb: +121:51
ttx#action dolphm to clarify progress on keystoneclient support for trusts and report on heat-trusts bp whiteboard21:52
zanebSpamapS: I assigned you to discover-catalog-resources for now21:52
ttxzaneb: anything else you want to raise ?21:52
dolphmwill do21:52
zanebSpamapS: we can bump to H-3 if you want21:52
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zanebttx: nothing to report21:52
ttxQuestions about Heat ?21:52
ttx#topic Horizon status21:53
*** openstack changes topic to "Horizon status (Meeting topic: project)"21:53
ttxgabrielhurley: o/21:53
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/horizon/+milestone/havana-221:53
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ttxLooks good... almost realistic compared to some others ;)21:53
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gabrielhurleyit's a bit of a jump from H1, but I polled everyone last week and nobody wanted to give up any of the ones that are left there for this cycle21:54
ttxthere are a good number under review already21:54
gabrielhurleyonly david-lyle has more than 2 blueprints assigned21:54
gabrielhurleymaking progress21:54
gabrielhurleywe'll see if it keeps up21:54
ttxok, then we'll skip next week meeting to let you make progress uninterrupted21:54
ttxgabrielhurley: anything you wanted to mention ?21:54
gabrielhurleysounds good to me21:54
ttxQuestions on Horizon ?21:55
ttx#topic Incubated projects21:55
*** openstack changes topic to "Incubated projects (Meeting topic: project)"21:55
ttxhub_cap(grapex?), devananda: around?21:55
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ttxIf not i have canned updates I can post21:56
ttx#info not much news for Ironic, besides that docs.openstack.org/developer/ironic is up now, and we're still workin on everything else21:56
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hub_capttx: around21:57
ttx#info reddwarf chugging along w/ the h2 blueprints, still waiting for name vetting from Foundation crew21:57
hub_capstill no name update21:57
hub_capand what u said ttx21:57
ttxhub_cap: any additional info or question ?21:57
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hub_capya can u prod mark to get the naming done? ;)21:57
ttxhub_cap: not sure my stick goes all the way to his vacation spot21:58
hub_capthats my only question for now heh21:58
hub_capummmmm...... :P21:58
hub_capya we shall wait till the 10th and beyond21:59
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ttxhub_cap: someone else should be able to pick up the results21:59
ttxI'll prod21:59
hub_capthx muchos21:59
hub_capim liking what im seeing w/ heat fwiw21:59
ttx#action ttx to prod foundation staff for new name vetting for reddwarf21:59
hub_capitll simplify installs21:59
ttx#topic Open discussion22:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)"22:00
ttx#info No meeting next week, let's make progress and see how far we've got in two weeks22:00
ttxanything else anyone ?22:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings"22:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  4 22:01:18 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-06-04-21.02.html22:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-06-04-21.02.txt22:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-06-04-21.02.log.html22:01
ttxoops, one minute late22:01
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gabrielhurley#startmeeting horizon22:04
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  4 22:04:24 2013 UTC.  The chair is gabrielhurley. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.22:04
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.22:04
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:04
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'horizon'22:04
gabrielhurleyHello Horizon people!22:04
gabrielhurleyThis one should be pretty short, I think.22:04
gabrielhurleyH1 was a success, H2 is moving along.22:04
gabrielhurleyI've nominated david-lyle and lcheng for horizon core. Many of you have offered feedback there, and that's all very good. I'll give it another day or two just on principle.22:05
gabrielhurleyJust wanted to make sure everyone was in the loop in case you missed it on the -dev mailing list22:06
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gabrielhurleyBeyond that nothing's really changed since last week.22:06
gabrielhurleyI've got a new intern starting here at Nebula who's eating a bunch of my attention currently, but I'm also actively engaged in Heat stuff, so hopefully we can finally get that merged in and close out that blueprint22:07
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gabrielhurleythat's gonna be my focus this week22:07
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gabrielhurleyI can't think of any other general announcements...22:08
gabrielhurley#topic blueprints and bugs22:08
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*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints and bugs (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:08
gabrielhurleyis meetbot ignoring me? I dunno... IRC's been flaky today.22:08
gabrielhurleyah. there it goes22:08
gabrielhurleyI do have one note on bugs22:08
gabrielhurleyI pinged dolph about the keystone regressions that showed up in Grizzly which we've been suffering from and he's gonna make sure those get fixed and backported.22:09
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1170186 in horizon "Unscoped tokens are revoked when assigning a role to a user" [High,Confirmed]22:09
gabrielhurley  https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/116196322:09
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1161963 in keystone "Editing User fails when the user already has a Primary Project" [Medium,In progress]22:09
gabrielhurleyand   https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/117064922:09
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1170649 in keystone "Removing a user from a project would result to all members of that project to be removed" [Critical,In progress]22:09
gabrielhurleyso that's good news on those22:10
gabrielhurleyanyone else have updates they'd like to give on blueprints (or bugs)?22:10
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david-lylehttps://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1186379 question22:11
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1186379 in horizon "url_for() function needs refactoring of admin flag" [Undecided,Confirmed]22:11
lchenggabrielhurley: dolph remove the token revocation call when adding roles to user. That is merged.22:11
BrooklynChenthe ceilometer bp https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/ceilometer22:11
lchengHowever, adding/removing  users to group still revokes the token. https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/118735922:11
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1187359 in keystone "Tokens are revoked when assigning a role to a group" [Medium,Confirmed]22:11
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gabrielhurleylemme go one at a time there22:13
gabrielhurleydavid-lyle: what's the question about that bug?22:13
david-lylethe submitter would like the option to attempt a fallback endpoint_type, specifically because so many api calls require adminURL, they would like that as the default in settings and then have the option to fallback to public.  Are there any string objections to having a fallback setting as well handled in url_for?22:13
gabrielhurleyI'd like to maintain the current behavior in the default case, but otherwise I'm fine with refactoring that code22:14
gabrielhurleyhow it arrives at that default behavior can be improved, I'm sure22:14
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david-lyleyes, purely settings driven changes and some logic around those22:14
david-lylealso want to get rid of the admin param as it's not used anywhere and complicates the logic22:15
gabrielhurleymarked it as H222:15
gabrielhurleylcheng: hopefully that bug will also get fixed and backported. feel free to ping dolph about it. he's a nice guy.22:15
gabrielhurleyBrooklynChen: I've been meaning to look at the ceilometer code you posted, but I haven't had a chance. perhaps you can try to work with some of the other core folks to get some eyes on it.22:16
gabrielhurleykspear, jpich, mrunge: any interest in following up with BrooklynChen about ceilometer?22:16
BrooklynChengabrielhurley:  ok.22:17
lchengOkay. Btw,  I've implemented the v3 auth for keystoneclient. It is up for review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/21942/ After that get merged, I can go back on domain login support.22:17
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gabrielhurleylcheng: yep, I actually happened to see that this morning22:17
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BrooklynChengabrielhurley:  some questions about the bp. do we need to export charts to pdf? it will introduce other python lib22:17
gabrielhurleyI'd really rather avoid that, actually22:18
gabrielhurleyI'm not a fan of reportlab22:19
jpichSo, is the idea to go with the separate ceilometer dashboard until we can implement the other "integrated" approach that seemed favoured during the summit?22:19
gabrielhurleythere's another project called PyPDF which is newer that I haven't tried22:19
gabrielhurleybut I'd like to just leave that out for now22:19
BrooklynChengabrielhurley:  okay. I agree with you.22:19
gabrielhurleyjpich: to be honest I was hoping we could perhaps go straight to integrating things, but this code is here and it's worth evaluating22:19
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BrooklynChenthat's developed by yolanda.22:20
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BrooklynChenanother question. we need to choose date period for chats, it may need  a datepicker js plugin.22:20
jpichgabrielhurley: Fair enough. I'll try to make the time to have a look22:21
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jpichBrooklynChen: There was an (unmerged) review by vkmc that meant to introduced a bootstrap date picker, maybe worth investigating22:23
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BrooklynChenjpich:  great22:23
jpichBrooklynChen: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/22471/ http://www.eyecon.ro/bootstrap-datepicker/ -- I think vkmc looked at multiple ones and this one the most lightweight that does the job22:23
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BrooklynChenso we decide to integrate the ceilometer panel into the overview?  I will do that and move the usage tables to the overview page.  any idea about the chart?22:25
gabrielhurleyjpich: thanks22:25
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gabrielhurleyBrooklynChen: nothing explicit. we've got d3.js in horizon now, so building from there is the way to go. bradjones can probably be of assistance22:26
bradjonesyeah I can help out with d322:27
BrooklynChenbradjones: thanks. :)22:27
gabrielhurleyI love teamwork22:28
gabrielhurley#topic open discussion22:28
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:28
gabrielhurleyquestions on anything from other folks?22:28
ayoungsorry just saw that I was pinged.  It was my understanding that the Heat team was working on the keystoneclient support for trusts since they needed it22:29
gabrielhurleyuh... that was the previous meeting ayoung22:29
gabrielhurleybut good to know22:29
gabrielhurleyI *was* actually wondering about that22:29
david-lylethere have been a couple cases where the wrong django-compressor version has broken master, does anyone have a good idea as to how to include a javascript sanity test into the gate jobs?22:29
jpichSelenium to the rescue?22:30
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gabrielhurleytwo options: include a test that runs the django manage.py compress command and verifies the success of it, or write a selenium test that checks it22:30
gabrielhurleyI prefer the latter (selenium) personally22:31
david-lyleit would be a nice addition22:31
gabrielhurleyyeah, certainly wouldn't hurt22:33
gabrielhurleyLast call on questions/comments before I wrap the meeting....22:33
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david-lyleif anyone has time I'd love feedback on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28855/22:36
bradjonesBrooklynChen: ping me offline let me know what I can do to help out with celiometer bp22:37
BrooklynChenbradjones: I will.22:37
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gabrielhurleyI keep forgetting to officially end these meetings22:46
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings"22:46
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  4 22:46:27 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:46
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-06-04-22.04.html22:46
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-06-04-22.04.txt22:46
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-06-04-22.04.log.html22:46
gabrielhurleythanks kspear ;-)22:46
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kspearhave a good week :)22:46
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