Thursday, 2013-09-05

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DaisyHi, we are going to start the I18n meeting now.06:59
Daisy#startmeeting OpenStack I18n Meeting07:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Sep  5 07:00:18 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Daisy. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.07:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n Meeting)"07:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_i18n_meeting'07:00
DaisyHello, everyone.07:00
DaisyWho are there?07:00
DaisyI see ujuc . Nice to meet you, ujuc!07:00
jpichHello, Daisy07:01
* Fdot is here \o_07:01
DaisyHi, jpich !07:01
DaisyHi, Fdot !07:01
ujucHI, jpich!07:01
FdotHello Daisy !07:01
Daisyjpich is from Horizon team. Welcome !07:01
ujucHi, Fdot :) z07:01
DaisyWe haven't been talking for a long time.07:01
DaisyThree weeks passed.07:01
Daisybecause last month had 5 Thursday.07:02
Daisyok. Let's start.07:02
Daisy#topic Action items from the last meeting07:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n Meeting)"07:02
Daisywe have only one action item last meeting.07:02
DaisyDaisy to continue to track the glossary and source language issue.07:02
DaisyIt's done. I have reported the updates to you through emails.07:03
DaisyFdot: all the glossaries have been imported.07:03
FdotDaisy : That's a great news :)07:03
DaisyI did it by program, not manually.07:03
FdotThanks a lot :)07:03
ujucThanks~~~~ :), Fdot07:03
Daisywe will move to the major topic today.07:04
Daisy#topic Horizon I18n version release process07:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Horizon I18n version release process (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n Meeting)"07:04
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DaisyThis is the release schedule of Havana.07:04
DaisyThe translation and translation test progress need to match Havana release.07:04
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DaisySince it's the first release after i18n team setting up, I don't want to cover a big scope and set up a big goal.07:05
DaisySo I will set our goal as "help to deliever high quality of internationalized Horizon in Havana.".07:05
DaisyWe will not cover messages tranlation this time, because of two reasons: (1) user facing message and log message are not separated. (2) the team are not ready enough to do such a big workload of message translation and test.07:05
DaisyHorizion I18n will be the first project we make in OpenStack.07:06
DaisyNext release, we may cover user facing messages and a few more projects.07:06
Daisyagree ?07:06
Daisycomments ?07:06
jpichSounds good to me :)07:07
ujucagree~~ :)07:07
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DaisyFdot ?07:07
Fdot :)07:07
DaisyThen let's discuss about the timelines.07:08
DaisySep 4 is the string frozen date. But I think we cannot assume 100% frozen.07:08
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DaisySo I will work together with Horizon team to update po files weekly till the end of release.07:08
Daisyjpich: your opinion?07:08
jpichDaisy: There are a few issues in the gates at the moment and patches are slow to merge, so I think the cut might be made later today when all approved patches are merged07:09
Daisyjpich: can Horizon team to make sure each patch that changes strings will run message generation scripts?07:09
jpichDaisy: We'll pay attention to it, yes07:09
jpichAnd avoid string changes unless they are really necessary07:09
DaisyAgain, I will check the syncronization weekly. If I find not syncronized, I will upload patch.07:10
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jpichDaisy: I just remembered something, do you know if django_openstack_auth is on Transifex?07:10
jpichIt contains the strings for the Horizon login page07:10
Daisyjpich: when will all approved patches being merged?07:10
DaisyI don't see django_openstack_auth.07:11
DaisyIs it a separate project ?07:11
jpichDaisy: Hopefully today, it's unclear because a bug is slowing down the gate. I can let you know when it is completed07:11
jpichYes, it is07:11
Daisyif so, we need to add this project. Is diango_openstack_auth being used by only Horizon?07:12
DaisyIf it is only used by Horizon, can we add it to Horizon project ?07:12
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jpichThat would make sense to me, yes07:12
Daisywe can add a new resource to Horizon project.07:12
jpichGreat! Thanks07:12
DaisyThen the first to item:07:12
Daisy#action Daisy to add diango_openstack_auth to Transifex.07:13
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Daisyok. Let's continue.07:13
DaisyHello, Steff00 !07:13
DaisyFdot is there.07:13
ujucHi, Steff00!07:13
DaisyWe are talking about the release plan of Horizon I18n now.07:14
DaisySep 26th is the first release candidate. There will be 3 release candiates till the formal release. I will do a translated strings downloading and merging back to code repository two days before each release candidate. That is Sep 24th, Nov 1nd and Nov 8th.07:14
DaisyHow do you think about it, jpich ?07:14
jpichDaisy: I'm not sure about the November dates, the release will be on October 17th07:15
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DaisyLook at this table.07:16
ujucOct 1, Oot 8?07:16
DaisyI don't understand release manage clearly. I just see this table.07:16
jpichWe can keep updating after the release of course (there will be a stable release one month after the release)07:16
jpichDaisy: The release candidates will be made over 3 weeks, from the 26th to 17th at the latest. There will be a RC1 for sure, but RC2 / RC3 will only happen if needed (e.g. serious bug fixes needed)07:17
DaisyThanks for the information. very helpful.07:17
DaisySo we need a merge before RC1.07:17
DaisyHow can I know the exact RC1 date?07:18
jpichI would say Sept 26th based on the wiki07:18
DaisyOK. I will do a merge at Sep 24th.07:18
Daisyin order to leave enough time for the review and merge process.07:19
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jpichMakes sense07:19
DaisyIn Sep 24, I will check the Transifex to see which langauges are ready to be merged. The languages who finish 100% translation and 100% review are ready to merge.07:19
Daisyso "100% translation and 100% review" are the conditions of merging into code repository.07:20
Daisywe need to have different people working as reviewer and translators, to ensure the quality.07:20
DaisyBefore merge, I will send email to mailing list to ask for oppositions for merging these languages. If no oppositions, I will do the merge.07:20
DaisyAny comments? Any suggestions? Any oppositions?07:20
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DaisyFdot and Steff00 : are you team have difficulties to finish the translation and review before Sep 24?07:21
Daisyonly Horizon.07:21
Daisyujuc: do you have difficulties ?07:22
FdotDaisy I don't see any difficulties ;)07:22
FdotFor translation it is going to be fine07:22
Fdotmaybe the review will take more time ;à07:22
Daisythanks. Only horizon is not a big workload, I think. I see many languages have reach 70%.07:22
DaisyI also want to do the translation test. The goal of translation test is to verify if the strings in UI are correctly displayed and translated.07:23
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DaisyOf course, we want test in all langauges environment, but we may not have so many resources.07:23
DaisySo we need pick out at least two languages and do the test. If horizon in these two langauges runs well, we can assume it's ok for other languages.07:23
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DaisyThe translation test should be done several days before the first release candidate, in order to get enough time to fix bugs if we find important bugs while testing.07:24
DaisySo I will set the target date to finish the test by Sep 20th.07:24
DaisyI can raise my hand to offer Horizon test in Chinese. Can I get another volunteer to do the test?07:24
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Daisyno ?07:25
jpichMaybe people can ask their teams if someone is interested in doing it07:25
DaisyI can publish this question to mail list to see if I can get another tester.07:26
FdotAgree \o_ :)07:26
Daisy#action Daisy to get another tester for Horizon I18n.07:26
FdotI am not sure but in Cloudwatt team we probably have someone who will be able to do it in French07:26
FdotI will forward him your e-mail ;)07:26
Fdotit will be easier07:27
Daisythanks, Fdot .07:27
DaisyI have expressed all my thoughts about horizon I18n release plan.07:27
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Daisyany questions? comments?07:27
Fdot#action Fdot is going to see with the Cloudwatt horizon team if they can help on testing the french translation with Daisy07:28
DaisyThanks, Fdot .07:28
FdotDaisy just one question about the glossary07:28
Daisyjpich: do you have any concerns?07:28
Fdotis it possible to add the french language07:28
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Daisyyes, it is.07:28
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jpichDaisy: Nope, that sounds great, thanks! I'd also like to mention from my experience last release, we're flexible enough with RCs so if people find a serious translation bug after RC1 we can fix it and do a RC207:29
Fdotso we will be able to upstream what we have already translate with steff0007:29
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FdotI don't see it :(07:29
DaisyFdot: you can go to a certain project, for example, Horizon, click on the "view glossary", and select your language.  Then you can define the translation of glossary in your own language.07:29
* Fdot is testing :)07:29
Daisythanks for your information, jpich .07:30
DaisyIt's my first time to experience OpenStack release.07:30
jpichIt'll be fun :-)07:30
Daisysure it will.07:30
Daisythen we move to next topic.07:31
Daisy#topic Translated document publish process07:31
*** openstack changes topic to "Translated document publish process (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n Meeting)"07:31
DaisyThe job to build Ja ops is in the Jenkins, although it haven't run successfully.07:31
DaisyBut I don't know the progress with website patch.07:32
DaisyAkihiro is working on it. But I guess, he should be very busy recently.07:33
Daisyso I will track the progress offline by email.07:33
Daisy#action Daisy to track the progress of ja document website.07:33
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DaisyAnne Gentle registerred a proposal here to discuss about the translated document publish process.07:34
Daisywho will attend the summit in HongKong this time?07:35
FdotDaisy unfortunatly not me :(07:35
Daisysorry to hear that.07:35
FdotToo many works07:36
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DaisyFdot: are there any people from French translation team will join the summit?07:36
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ujucnot me..... :(07:36
jpichI'll be attending07:36
FdotDaisy : there will be some people from Cloudwatt which are helping me on the translation07:37
Daisygood, jpich. We can meet there then.07:37
Fdotso they will be in charge to represent me ;)07:37
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DaisyGreat, Fdot. I'm sure there will be some sessions related with I18n.07:37
DaisyI hope to see some people there.07:37
ujuc^_^ b07:37
uvirtbotujuc: Error: "_^" is not a valid command.07:37
ujuc(^_^) b07:38
Daisyok. I think I have finished the things I want to address.07:38
Daisy#topic Open discussion07:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n Meeting)"07:38
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FdotDaisy Just test the glossary07:39
Daisydoes it work?07:39
FdotIt rocks ! \o/07:39
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FdotThanks a lot07:39
FdotI have started to upstream what we have already done07:39
DaisyGreat !07:39
FdotIt is going to be very helpfull for our team07:40
DaisyMaybe I can provide you the cvs file, you update the cvs file, and I can try to upload.07:40
DaisyThat will be easier for you.07:40
DaisyIs it helpful ?07:40
FdotOh yes ! It could be very nice07:40
Fdotand quicker :)07:40
Daisygood. Then we do it offline.07:40
Daisy#action Daisy to send the cvs file to Fdot07:41
FdotThanks a lot :)07:41
Daisywelcome ! I'd like to do anything I can help.07:41
Daisyanything else ?07:41
Daisyno ?07:41
FdotOk for me :)07:42
Daisythen I will close the meeting and you can go back to your busy work. :))07:42
DaisyThank you all for attending.07:42
Daisywe will touch offline.07:42
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"07:42
openstackMeeting ended Thu Sep  5 07:42:45 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)07:42
openstackMinutes (text):
FdotHave a good day all :)07:44
FdotTalk to you soon !07:44
ujucHave a good day~ :)07:44
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jd__#startmeeting ceilometer15:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Sep  5 15:00:44 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jd__. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer'15:00
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jd__#topic Review Havana-3 milestone15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Review Havana-3 milestone (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:02
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jd__if you followed the crazyness these last hours, so havana-3 is going to be out RSN15:02
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jd__the milestone-proposed branch has been cut15:03
jd__all blueprints not completed that missed the deadline have been rescheduled for Icehouse15:03
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jd__in this great wisdom ttx granted use some FFE for the ongoing work for alarm-service-paritioner and alarming-logical-combination15:04
eglynnpossible to get a FFE for any of those?15:04
sandywalshwhat about the branches still under active review?15:05
jd__quite a good score I'd say anyway15:05
jd__sandywalsh: that'll go in master, which is now Icehouse15:05
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eglynnjd__: good negotiating!15:05
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thomasmjd__, What's the timeline for the bug fixes?15:06
ttxjd__: s/great/infinite/ please15:06
jd__thomasm: if we want to get bugfixes in for H3 we have less than 24 hours I guess15:07
jd__the rest will be for RC115:07
thomasmjd__, Good to know. Thanks. After this meeting I'll be putting up another review.15:07
russellbjd__: btw, i don't think master is icehouse now, right?15:07
jd__russellb: what is it?15:08
russellbjd__: the current branching was just for a short term branch for havana-3, master is still havana15:08
russellbuntil a stable/havana is cut around RC time15:08
russellbttx: ^ ?15:08
sandywalshthat would make sense15:08
russellbor at least that's how nova works ... assumed they were all the same model15:08
ttxIt's still very much havana15:09
jd__ok so we have to hold patches for weeks until rc1?15:09
ttxat this point, the idea is to come up with a definitive list of release blockers15:09
ttxfix them all15:09
sandywalshso, no approvals on non-ffe branches15:09
russellbjd__: yeah, and focus on bugs only15:09
ttxthen you cut your RC115:09
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jd__russellb: ah I wish I could order people what to focus on ;)15:09
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ttxjd__: that can be tomorrow, if you're bug-free15:09
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russellbttx: ah good point15:09
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ttxwhen we have an RC1, icehouse opens15:10
russellbjd__: heh, no, but you can block the stuff they really want to work on and annoy them15:10
ttxjd__: and if new bugs are uncovered we do a RC2 with backported fixes15:10
ttxjd__: it's also to simplify not having to backport15:10
jd__ttx: yeah I thought we'd do that right on milestone-proposed actually15:10
ttxuntil you are done with the largest chunck of bugs15:10
ttxno, the milestone-proposed branch we have now is just for havana-315:11
ttxthe "real" release branch will be cut just before rC115:11
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jd__I'm just thinking about putting -2 on all patches basically now15:11
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ttxjd__: others do that15:11
russellbjd__: that's what i did this morning15:11
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jd__yeah makes sense, though that seems like a heavy burden especially for nova15:12
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jd__well I'll do that then15:12
jd__not the right time to debate around this anyway :)15:12
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russellbyeah ... and i'll rely on the patch authors to chase me down to take the -2 off later15:12
ttxjd__: if there is a specific feature you want to work on and start landing... we can always do a feature branch. But that's a bit heavy for two weeks15:12
jd__ttx: yeah, we won't do that I guess :)15:12
jd__questions anyone?15:13
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ttxjd__: so at this point you should rather come up with an RC1 buglist15:13
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ttxand spread the load around15:13
eglynnso for a patch that's currently merging as we speak15:13
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eglynnshould I backport to milestone-proposed?15:13
ttxeglynn: only if it's milestone-critical15:13
eglynnttx: k15:14
ttxotherwise just let it live in master15:14
eglynn(it's not, so I will ...)15:14
ttxit will be included in RC115:14
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jd__#topic State of DB2 driver15:15
*** openstack changes topic to "State of DB2 driver (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:15
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1208547 in ceilometer "resource metadata not reflecting actual state of resource" [Medium,In progress]15:15
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jd__dhellmann: do you want to introduce this topic?15:15
dhellmannwe had some issues with the way the drivers were returning resource metadata15:16
dhellmannthomasm was working on the fix, but didn't know quite what to do with the db2 driver15:16
dhellmannthe proposed solution was to raise NotImplementedError in get_resources() to indicate that the results were wrong15:16
dhellmannI objected, on the grounds that it made the driver entirely unusable15:17
dhellmannwe discussed it on IRC for a bit, but I don't think we resolved it, and that's why we wanted to talk about it with the rest of the group15:17
thomasmlitong submitted a fix for it15:18
dhellmannthomasm: did anything happen on that after our chat?15:18
thomasmand it's passing the tests15:18
dhellmannok, good15:18
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dhellmannso the bigger question, then, is what to do for these cases in the future15:18
thomasmHe said it works for both the mongo test backend and DB215:18
dragondmCrisis averted :>15:18
silehtdhellmann, db2 have some exception in test too:
thomasmdragondm, yep!15:18
dhellmannmy opinion is it's better to document a bug than to completely break a driver15:18
gordcdhellmann: yep, litong is actively looking at any db2 bug that comes up.15:18
dhellmannand of course fix them :-)15:19
litong@dhellmann, yeah.15:19
gordcdhellmann: agreed.15:19
thomasmThe biggest problem I saw was communication.15:19
thomasmI misquoted litong because I misunderstood what he was trying to tell me.15:19
thomasmlitong, and that caused us to make a decision that we otherwise probably wouldn't have made.15:20
litongThomas and I had a phone conversation and the issue was resolved.15:20
dhellmannthomasm: was that regarding the "we're not sure if db2 can do this" statement?15:20
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dhellmannok, well, it's good that's resolved :-)15:20
dhellmannI like using NotImplementedError for specific sub-cases, like group by or filter queries that are just not implemented yet15:21
thomasmWhen litong had stated that we can't do it, I thought he meant overall we couldn't with the current DB2 features. But what he meant was that we couldn't have aggregate function parity with the mongo driver.15:21
dhellmannthat lets the caller know, some parts of this API don't work with the backend15:21
litong@dhellmann, doug, yeah, as long as we can understand each other, we can always find a solution.15:21
dhellmannbut I don't like blocking off an entire API call15:21
dhellmannso I just wanted to see if the group felt otherwise, or if that's what we'll plan to do in the future?15:21
eglynnyep NotImplementedError should be resolved as an initial placeholder in some drivers for a new feature15:21
litong@dhellmann, totally agreed.15:21
dhellmanneglynn: right, new features are a special case, too15:22
eglynn(not to disable an existing partially broken feature)15:22
dhellmannso new features, or sub-features of an API15:22
sandywalshwe could start thinking about versioning of db drivers15:22
silehtI guess we need something to explain limitation/feature implementation of each backend15:22
dragondmI'd suggest some way of marking a driver method that is semi-broken.15:22
dhellmannsandywalsh: that's probably a good idea for a summit talk for icehouse15:22
thomasmdragondm had a great idea for experimental drivers15:22
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sandywalshdhellmann, are we writing down all these summit talk ideas? :)15:23
dhellmannsileht: I have handled that in the past by having the plugin implement a get_features() call that returns a set of enum values15:23
gordca side question, since we have a bunch of backends now, i assume no one is an expert in all of them. should we have a place to find maintainers for backends?15:23
dhellmannsandywalsh: not it15:23
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thomasmWhere if we wanted to allow organic growth of an experimental driver in the master branch we'd need something to delineate between stable and not-so-stable drivers.15:23
dragondmgordc: yup15:23
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jd__gordc: I was thinking about a MAINTAINERS file ala oslo15:23
dhellmanngordc: yes, definitely a good idea -- a file like -- exactly15:23
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thomasmgordc, +115:23
sileht+1 for MAINTAINERS file15:24
sandywalshdhellmann, a Facet pattern works well there. Versioning would even be better15:24
eglynnwould the maintainer be responsible for porting new features to their backend?15:24
dhellmanngordc, want to start that?15:24
sandywalshmaintainers +115:24
llu-laptop+1 for MAINTINERS file15:24
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dhellmanneglynn: or at least helping with someone else who wanted to do the work15:24
gordcdhellmann: yeah i'll do that. i think it'll be helpful15:24
eglynndhellmann: cool, that's fair15:24
litong@jd__, @gordc, for /storage directory.15:24
sandywalshshould there be a minimum number of maintainers on a feature?15:24
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dhellmannsandywalsh: versioning gets us part way, but doesn't let us inspect a given driver to see what it does. I'm not familiar with "Faceting" so I'll have to look that up15:24
gordcanyone want to be considered an expert and own a backend? :)15:24
litongfor any other stuff? publisher, dispatchers?15:24
dhellmann#action gordc to create MAINTAINERS file for storage drivers15:25
jd__nice play dhellmann15:25
* dhellmann has learned much about delegation over the last 6 monghts15:25
eglynnsnap ;)15:25
litongoh, boy,15:25
sandywalsh(just listing things that need maintainers)15:25
dragondmdhellmann, sandywalsh: I'd suggest an '@experimental' decorator that can flag such.15:25
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sandywalshtrigger pipeline, meter pipeline15:26
sandywalshhttp stack15:26
gordcsandywalsh: i'll add events to maintainers file and add your name.15:26
jd__I think it's fair enough to ask the guys in MAINTAINERS to take a look at a patch and to implement/fix the code like litong did15:26
sandywalsh(or would that be oslo)15:26
dhellmanngordc: put me down for the API stack15:26
gordcdhellmann: will do15:26
dragondmI'll be happy to fix events stuff too.15:26
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dhellmannwe can all add ourselves to the file, too, once gordc creates it15:27
dhellmannI think that wraps up that topic, jd__15:27
gordcdragondm: done.15:27
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jd__#topic Release python-ceilometerclient?15:27
eglynnrely on a convention that the appropriate mantainer is always added as a reviewer on paches that touch their area?15:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Release python-ceilometerclient? (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:27
eglynn(but doesn't get a veto ...)15:27
jd__eglynn: yes15:27
jd__we need to release ceilometerclient as soon as gets merged15:28
eglynnthe alarms s/counter_name/meter_name/ patch will need releasing soon15:28
jd__I guess I'll do that :)15:28
sandywalshI'd like to see ceilometer lead the way on a self-describing api (kind of like a richer-wsdl) so the client would auto-update.15:28
jd__sandywalsh: that'd be awesome15:28
sandywalshthe client could be completely data-driven15:28
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eglynnthat would be cool15:29
jd__maybe WSME can help us generating WSDL like specs15:29
jd__s/maybe/verryyy likely/15:29
eglynnavoid a lot of boilerplate patches to the client15:29
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jd__sandywalsh: if guess that makes you up for creating a blueprint to work on that? ;-)15:29
dragondmData driven client would be nice.15:29
dhellmannhow would a consumer of the client code know what the API is?15:29
sandywalshjd__, np15:29
sandywalshdhellmann, autogenerated docs15:30
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dragondm(saying 'wsdl' brings back bad memories.. :P)15:30
dhellmannlet's not re-invent soap15:30
eglynnLOL :)15:30
jd__next, how do we autogenerate Ceilometer's code from our brains?15:30
sandywalshwsdl won't do it, there are alternatives15:30
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dhellmannjd__: I have a brain-compute interface called "keyboard" that works pretty well15:30
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jd__dhellmann: I should try that, these punch cards really slow me down15:31
sandywalshtermie did some good work on this scheme in the early nova days15:31
dhellmannjd__: indeed15:31
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sandywalshbourbon-driven development15:32
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jd__#topic Open discussion15:32
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:33
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* terriyu is looking forward to getting some sleep after havana-315:34
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jd__so calm15:37
jd__I'm almost done -2'ing everything in the queue while you're chatting15:37
jd__while I'm at it15:37
thomasmfun fun15:37
terriyubtw guys, I got a travel grant to go to the Hong Kong Summit!!15:37
jd__congrats terriyu :)15:38
eglynnterriyu: nice work!15:38
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terriyuI'll get to meet you and hear your voices, instead of imagining them over IRC :)15:38
jd__not sure it's a win? ;)15:38
llu-laptopjd__: when will the master be available for accpeting patches again?15:38
jd__btw I'm going to continue working on better and more gate jobs; devstack should run now (or in a few hours) on all patches15:38
jd__llu-laptop: after rc115:38
jd__llu-laptop: if I got things right :))15:39
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jd__I don't want to interrupt but I'll close the meeting in a minute15:41
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openstackMeeting ended Thu Sep  5 15:42:27 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:42
jd__have fun guys15:42
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rellerrellerSorry, I'm late18:11
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harlowja#startmeeting state-management20:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Sep  5 20:00:25 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is harlowja. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: state-management)"20:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'state_management'20:00
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melnikovhi there20:00
harlowjahi hi20:01
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harlowjaso might be pretty short if its just us :-P20:02
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harlowjaoks then, ha20:04
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harlowjai guess the big thing this week is
harlowjaand working on adjusting taskflow to the engine concept20:04
harlowjaaka unification of engines into taskflow (and vice-versa)20:05
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changblHi folks20:05
changblso many commits from you20:05
changblgood progress:)20:05
changbli just do not have much time to review them... quite a hectic week20:05
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harlowjaits ok :)20:06
harlowjahi adalbas20:06
harlowjahi adrian_otto20:06
harlowjaso 45139 is the other big one this week, it does yes break a little stuff, but i think its just a pain we have to get over, one thats worth just doing20:07
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melnikov+1 for 4513920:07
harlowjamelnikov after that goes in i think u mentioned that anastasia is working on fixing up the graph 'flow'', i assume that doesn't mean she would be doing the engine 'threaded graph action equivalent'20:09
harlowjaso maybe i can do that up20:09
harlowjaand melnikov after 45139 we can see about resumption, i think u were getting started on that right?20:09
melnikovyeah that's right20:10
adrian_ottoharlowja: there is a grammar error in the description of 45139. Can that be edited, or are you stuck with it?20:10
harlowjanever stuck20:11
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adrian_otto"flows with there".. I think you meant "flows with their"20:11
harlowjahmmm, sounds good to me, i always forget the diff between there/their :-P20:11
harlowjahey i just write code, hahaha20:12
adrian_ottoyeah, "there" is a place you can point at20:12
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harlowja:) thx20:12
adrian_ottoCan you elaborate on "Threaded flow and graph flow are broken by this commit, so we20:12
adrian_ottotemporarily disable their tests."20:12
harlowjain the review or here?20:13
harlowjaor both?20:13
adrian_ottodoes that mean that you are intentionally introducing a code regression?20:13
adrian_ottoI suppose start here, and if needed we can place it in the review20:13
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hodosso...I was implementing flow for volume backups...should I wait now until action_engine stuff is done ?20:15
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harlowjaso engines are a major restructuring is what i would call it, one that inverts how flows work (for the better imho) so since gerrit doesn't have the concept of a feature branch and since taskflow is still pretty new i think its worth the effort to break taskflow for a short period until we have engines fully integrated20:17
harlowjayes i know thats controversial, but i think its a needed change to get this goign in the right direction20:18
harlowjahodos if u are using the cinder code, cinder already has a copy of taskflow that should work for your need, when cinder pulls in the newer taskflow with action_engine via running taskflow then it will need to alter the flows there, but i don't think the alteration will be to painful20:19
adrian_ottook, sorry I missed where this came from. Can we back up a bit, and restate the original problem?20:19
harlowjaso flows now have a lot of concept of how they run inside there module, so for example linear_flow knows how to run itself20:20
harlowjathis means its not really easily possible to seperate the running from the structure20:20
harlowjawhich creates a problem for nesting of flows and running the different structures via different mechanisms20:20
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harlowjaso engines/blocks were created to be this thing that 'runs' and the existing flows would just define structure20:21
adrian_ottois the problem that the concept of a flow is not abstracted enough from the patterns? Meaning a flow has different usage or features depending on which pattern is used?20:21
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harlowjai think the problem was that flows were running themselves instead of asking something else to run it (an engine)20:22
adrian_ottook, why is that bad?20:22
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adrian_ottoplease understand I'm not arguing the point, I'm just seeking clarity20:23
harlowjaso there was alot of repeated work that flows were having, that is duplicated when flows know how to run themselves, state management for example20:24
harlowjaand that means each flow, would need to have the logic to do that20:24
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harlowjainstead if flows just define structure, they can let the thing running the flows (engine) centralize all that duplication20:25
adrian_ottook, I can see how that's inefficient compared to the engine approach, and causes more maintenance, and probably complexity.20:25
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harlowjaya, so melnikov has been helping lead the changes to do that20:25
adrian_ottoso, in other words engines are a place to centralize the state management, and simplify flows.20:26
adrian_ottook, I think I got it now, thanks.20:26
adrian_ottomaybe we could add that in to the commit description as well, to help others grok it a bit more easily.20:26
harlowjanp so that review is bringing all the picture together, except it was getting bigger due to the changes, and since there isn't a shared feature branch concept i thought it would be good to get that out there and in, so that melnikov and anastasia can continue on the path of fixing the other 2 broken flows20:27
harlowjasure adrian_otto20:27
harlowjaso it might be broken for a few more days, but the break i think will make things simpler due the above :)20:27
harlowjathe basic though will work, so hodos u should be able to use the linear_flow and engines right now20:28
adrian_ottoit might also be worth documenting (somewhere) the intent around what's broken by this approach, and the plan for how it gets fixed.20:28
harlowjasounds good20:28
hodosyes, i figured that's fine, thanks20:29
adrian_ottoyou already mentioned the two patterns that need test bypass, but we are missing a statement of intent about how that will be solved.20:29
harlowjayup yup, will add that adrian_otto20:29
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harlowjaok, was going to see about jessica doing a distributed engine instead of 'distributed flow' (reworking that code she is already working on) but will talk with her off-meeting20:31
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harlowjahodos do u want to chat about your work, be interesting to hear20:31
harlowja#topic new-use-cases20:32
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harlowjais it for cinder? or is this the rashka (sp?) project20:32
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harlowjaoh, before i forget20:33
harlowja#action harlowja update comment per adrian_otto comments20:33
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hodosi'm just in a state where I'm trying to work off the create_volume flow and make something similar with volume_backup20:33
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harlowja#action harlowja make bugs/blueprints to ensure intent/fixes are  noted20:33
hodosi'm just in a state where I'm trying to work off the create_volume flow and make something similar with create_backup20:33
hodoscinder, yup20:33
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harlowjais that one pretty straightfoward, if u get stuck with taskflow understanding def let us help :)20:35
hodoswhat I'm also trying to achieve is to be able to track activity performed by the flow20:35
hodosI'm wondering if a backup is performed appliance -- appliance without coping data through cinder20:36
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hodosis flow a good point where we can update DB to track the progress20:36
harlowjaso there is a mechanism built-in to be notified of the activity a flow (or with the newer code a engine) is going through20:38
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harlowjathose notification 'recievers' can be arbitary callbacks20:38
harlowjaso u could have one callback be something that updates a db20:38
harlowjasimilar tracking is needed itself by taskflow for advanced features like resuming20:38
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harlowjaas far as the appliance -- appliance i'm not so sure there of the context20:39
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harlowjaif its things that happen outside cinder (not via cinder) i'm not sure how u would track the activity there20:40
hodoswell it should be addressed in the driver20:40
hodosit's vendor specific20:41
vito-ordazdo you have any plans for monitoring flow progress?20:41
hodosread up ^20:41
harlowjavito-ordaz so i think taskflow should expose the mechansism to do notifications of flow progress, taskflow itself for resuming tasks will need to know the progress also20:42
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harlowjabut the internal taskflow resuming mechanism doesn't have to be the same as the notifications being emitted, notifications i think are the best way to let people plug-in to what the engine/flow is doing20:43
harlowjathe neat thing about having that mechanism is that we can easily add-in something like20:44
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harlowjawhich will make nice graphs/pictures/metrics of what tasks/flows are doing20:45
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hodosthat looks good20:46
kebraysorry I'm late.20:47
harlowjaintersting hodos20:47
hodoswe can address this with taskflows I think20:47
harlowjahodos potentially, thats a big change :)20:47
harlowja*big change for cinder i think20:48
harlowjakebray howdy!20:48
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harlowjahodos very interesting20:49
harlowjai sorta imagine something like the following, cinder asks volume driver to give back 'flow' for given 'action', cinder maybe adds its own flows to that returned one, submits them all the taskflow engine20:49
harlowja*them all to taskflow engine20:49
vito-ordazwhat you think about this patch
harlowjataskflow engine then can figure out how to suspend, resume (or other advanced thingy)20:50
* kebray just caught up on the discussion on engines.20:51
vito-ordazall flow stored in db, and cinder provide API to get current state of each flow and also progress based on progress of each flow task20:51
harlowjavito-ordaz u might want to talk with melnikov about engines :)20:51
harlowjaits looking very similar :)20:51
* kebray still thinks that if you implement engines, the what's the point of flows? Let's just have tasks nest tasks, no need to have another abstraction with flows so that flows embed in flows.20:51
harlowjaflows define how your thing is desired to run20:52
harlowjanot all of them will be flows within flows20:53
harlowjasome parts of your flow u want to run in parallel, others not20:53
harlowjaothers u want there to be a strong dependency between tasks in the flow (graph)20:53
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hodosharlowja: yes that's how I thought about backend-activity as a nested flows20:53
hodoscan't you always have a strict dependency via requires/updates20:54
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harlowjahodos yes, that is possible20:56
harlowjabut say we didn't have a linear flow, then we would require people to create artificial dependencies in requires/provides to make it run linearly20:56
harlowjawhich seems annoying/painful20:56
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harlowjain my view there would be the following 3 main flows20:57
harlowjalinear, unordered (can be ran in any order, even in parallel), graph (can be ran in parallel as long as dependents run before)20:57
harlowjaso a engine would know how to interpret those 3 root 'patterns'20:57
harlowjabut u might not want your engine to run via threads, so u would pick the single threaded one that would know how to run those 3 root patterns, or u may run the single threaded engine in tests, then switch to a celery/distributed engine in production20:58
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harlowjathats my thoughts on why engines are good, they disconnect the root patterns from how they are ran, instead of previously having the root patterns be very aware of how to run themselves20:59
harlowjaanyways, lets discuss more in #openstack-state-management if needed :)21:00
harlowjatimes up! :)21:00
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openstackMeeting ended Thu Sep  5 21:00:55 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:00
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russellbhey everyone ... if you're here for the nova meeting that normally starts now, it's canceled for today:
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n0anofine, make me miss a meeting, see if I care :-)21:01
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