Thursday, 2013-10-17

dylanhi :)00:00
ujucHello, Daisy :)00:00
DaisyHi, dylan00:00
Daisyok. It's time to start our meeting.00:00
Daisy#startmeeting OpenStack I18n Meeting00:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Oct 17 00:00:38 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Daisy. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.00:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n Meeting)"00:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_i18n_meeting'00:00
DaisyWelcome to join !00:00
DaisyWe haven't been met for a month.00:01
DaisyBut we keep contaction through email.00:01
Daisy#topic Summary of Horizon translation00:01
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DaisyWe did a wonderful job in Horizon translation.00:01
DaisyWe have 12 languages 100% translated.00:01
DaisyThat's a very good result.00:01
DaisyMany thanks to these translation teams.00:02
DaisyThe translations have been merged and will be shipped with Havana release.00:02
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DaisyI have a question.00:02
DaisyHow do you hope our translators being recoginzed?00:03
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DaisyI mean, how to recognize these translators?00:03
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gabrielcwWill the name appear somewhere in the release?00:03
DaisyThe name will be shipped with the po file, that's true.00:04
DaisyBut I don't know how many people will look into po files.00:04
DaisySo maybe I can ask how developers being recoginzed, and our translators can be recongized in the same way.00:05
DaisyFirst of all, we need to have a list of translators.00:05
DaisyA name list of translators.00:05
DaisyI don't know how easily we can get the name list from Transifex.00:05
gabrielcwwe have no stats, so it`s kind of hard to know who really works00:06
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Daisycorrect, gabrielcw00:06
dylanWe could make some statistics just like the code contributors do, but need Transifex support00:06
gabrielcwWell but if one is involved, and we ask the coordinators, we can get the names then00:06
gabrielcwthe coordinators should know I guess00:06
DaisyI think so too.00:07
Daisyso action00:07
Daisy#action Daisy to get the translators name list and get a way to recongize them00:07
Daisyok. we move to next topic00:07
Daisy#topic TODO items for the next00:08
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DaisyBefore starting, here is a question.00:08
DaisyHow can we track the items we plan to do?00:08
DaisyBlueprint in Transifex?00:08
gabrielcwis there such thing?00:08
gabrielcwin transifex?00:08
Daisysorry, in Launchpad.00:09
gabrielcwoh, right ;)00:09
Daisywe have this project in launchpad.00:09
Daisyso I think we can use the blue print in this project to track the things we want to do.00:09
dylanThat's nice00:09
DaisyThanks, ujuc and dylan00:10
Daisy#info Action item 1: build up the translation infrastructure00:10
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DaisyI hope to have a good translation infrastructure to support our translators' work.00:11
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DaisyIncluding a well design UI, good integration with the development team and the infrastructure team, a well designed progress.00:11
Daisyprocess, I mean, a good release process.00:12
gabrielcwmaybe we could track with the lanchpad bugs/tasks00:12
DaisyThat's an idea, gabrielcw00:12
DaisyNow we are using Transifex.00:13
Daisyyet I think some of you may know that Transifex closed its source.00:13
DaisySome requests come from OpenStack community and CI team to evaluate other translation tools.00:14
DaisyLike pootle00:14
DaisyActually, after Horzion translation, I began to like Transfix now.00:14
gabrielcwI think its good to use, but lacks of support00:15
DaisyBut if Transifex won't support statistics , we will not be able to choose it.00:15
gabrielcwand we will not have the stats, only in the paid version00:15
gabrielcwyeah, Daisy00:15
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DaisyThe stats is very important for a open source community.00:16
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dylanThat's the problem.00:16
DaisySo let's start from the requirements to translation tools.00:16
DaisyOur requirements to translation tools, and then we find out if there is suitalble tools support.00:17
DaisyI hope to find somebody else to lead this discussion in our mailing list.00:17
DaisyWho want to do that?00:17
gabrielcwmaybe someone who knows more the existing tools00:18
Daisyif nobody, I can do.00:18
gabrielcwwho setup the pootle test server?00:18
DaisyI think a guy from CI team.00:18
gabrielcwI know only tx, so I won`t be of much help00:19
Daisyhehe. ok. I can.00:19
Daisy#action Daisy to start the discussion in mailing list about requirements to translation tools.00:19
DaisyAfter translation tool is selected, we need the tool to integrate with openstack development infrastructure.00:20
DaisyI mean, something like the automatic syncronization between git and transifex00:21
gabrielcwthat's important00:21
DaisyNow there are automation scripts to push and pull the translations from Transifex to Github for some projects, not all.00:21
DaisyI remember somebody has said that Horzion development team don't like the daily update, there is no automation scripts for Horzion.00:21
DaisySo that Akihiro Motoki made several manually translation update in Horizon release.00:22
ujucso .. not translation tool....00:22
ujucthat ...00:22
DaisyWhat is penflip?00:22
ujucgit like doc00:23
ujucdocument tool.00:23
ujucgithub :);;00:23
Daisyhow can it help our translation?00:23
dylangit-like documentation tool?00:24
ujucyes ..00:24
DaisyI'm not clear how it is helpful for us, ujuc ? sorry I cannot catch you.00:25
DaisyContinue my talk, I think we also need discussion about the syncronization process too.00:26
DaisyI mean, when to update the translation resources? When to download the translations to github?00:27
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dylanAnother mail-list discussion00:27
gabrielcwis there a way to do this nightly/periodically by jenkins?00:28
DaisyI think, even the translation resources being updated daily at the beginning of a release, our translators won't keep an eye on the translation update and work on the transation from day to day.00:28
gabrielcwI think this could be done weekly00:28
Daisygabrielcw: think of this way, when Icehouse starts, and the translation resources are updated weekly, will you work on the translation?00:29
gabrielcwwell, yes00:30
gabrielcwas far as I can I do this00:30
DaisyEven the translation resources may be updated and deleted?00:30
gabrielcwI see00:30
DaisyBecause they are not stable...00:30
clarkbI am going to jump in here for a sec. We currently push .pot updates to tx whenever code updates change .pot and pull from tx and propose that to gerrit once a day. Is that not working well?00:30
gabrielcwmaybe we should wait then for the mid of the development to start?00:31
DaisyThanks for jump in, clarkb.00:31
Daisywe are discussing.00:31
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DaisyIn Horizon release, we start the translation when the string is called frozen..00:31
DaisySurely, there is no really "forzen", there are a few changes after string frozen.00:32
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Daisybut we start the work when there is no that so many changes frequently.00:32
gabrielcwBut like that we may not have enough time to do it depending on the project ?00:33
DaisyI think we need to find a time point for translators to start the work, when most of the strings are to some kind of "stable".00:34
gabrielcwI mean, it may change something, but won`t change entirely , I hope :)00:34
Daisygabrielcw is correct. The time point is very important, because translators also need enough time to work on the translation too.00:34
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DaisyI don't know. It's hard to decide.00:35
vkmcDaisy, Do strings change that much during the development period?00:36
clarkbbetween string/feature freeze and release you have ~6 weeks, but the first release candidates come out before that00:36
DaisyI don't know, vkmc00:36
DaisyDevelopers may know.00:37
gabrielcwjust to sample, is there a way to retrieve a diff to check if there are tipically many strings that are removed completely? This is the worst case. I noticed that some strings that changed just had typos fixed, or improved00:37
gabrielcwso if one starts early it won't be a waste if there isn't that much removed strings00:37
vkmcDaisy, I don't have much experience, but usually I don't see so many changes with strings00:37
Daisyclarkb: Horzion has 1700+ strings. If more components include, that will be a big number of strings.00:37
Daisy6 weeks is not enough.00:38
clarkbDaisy: yeah, especially with the release candidates coming out sooner00:38
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DaisyIf I'm a developer, and when I'm developing a feature, I may change the strings several times while I'm developing. But when I commit to a code repository, I may change, but may not that frequently.00:39
vkmcWe should take the decision considering the translation effort we will need if we decide to perform all the translations at the end of the release cycle, and the effort we will need to do if some strings change or get removed00:39
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Daisyyou are right, vkmc. If we can get the numbers of string change in each commit, it will be helpful.00:41
vkmcI usually contribute to Horizon with code reviews and don't see many changes in strings... that's why I ask... but maybe in other projects strings are more unestable00:41
Daisytime is up. I just want to bring the our eyes to the current upload/download process, and the translation work in a release cycle too.00:43
Daisywe can discuss in the mail list.00:43
dylanIdeally, we need a git-like tool records all string changes, even for deletion and new strings.00:43
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Daisydylan: as Transifex said, all strings deleted will be saved in the translation memory of Transifex.00:44
Daisyso these strings can still be found when it is in the recomend list.00:44
dylanCan we do version control in transifex?00:45
dylanfor string changes00:45
Daisyactually, I'm thinking if it is possible to use a git repository to contain only the translation resources, other than saving the translation resources in other projects.00:45
Daisyno, no version control.00:45
Daisyfor example, we use a git repository to store only po files, po file from each project.00:46
gabrielcwmaybe there's s better way, but we could harvest the repos and thn gather in a new repo the translation files00:46
gabrielcwcertainly there's a better way :) but like that would be transparent for projects00:47
Daisyand our daily work in Transifex will be saved in this git repository, but the syncronize between this git repo to other code base git repo is a certain period.00:47
Daisygabrielcw: I like the word: transparent.00:47
Daisythat's a possible choice.00:48
gabrielcwI was thinking about using jenkins for that00:48
Daisyjenkins can help, I'm sure.00:48
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gabrielcwAkihiro could help answer if this is possible00:48
Daisylet's move to next item.00:49
DaisyDocumentation translation - Operation guide00:49
DaisyAgain, operation guide is the top priority.00:49
DaisyAgain, we need to have the first PoC of translated document publish website.00:49
DaisyWe have talked about operation guide for many times.00:49
gabrielcwit's enourmous!00:50
DaisyI think we need a time line to push things go on.00:50
vkmcThat will hurt00:50
DaisyI hope we can have a ja document web site before summit, so that I can demostrate that to people.00:50
DaisyI will try to push this happen.00:51
DaisyNext item: message translation.00:51
DaisyNot horizon, but messages in Nova, glance, and something else.00:51
DaisyOslo team is working on the codes refactor of the translate messages.00:51
DaisyI think we can raise the requirements to them on behalf of users and translators.00:52
DaisySo firstly, I want to understand our opinion to the I18n policies of messages.00:52
DaisyThere are some questions, like:00:52
DaisyWhether to translate log messages?00:52
DaisyWhether to localize the REST API response messages?00:52
DaisyWhether to translate command line output messages?00:52
DaisyDo you have any other questions or concerns to the I18n polices of messages?00:53
gabrielcwgood points00:53
DaisyWe can get a list and send to mail list and ask for inputs.00:53
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gabrielcwabout localization of dates?00:53
DaisyWe are from different country and we are the users. so we can decide the policy and ask developers to change their codes. :))00:53
Daisydate is a good point.00:54
fifieldtsounds good00:54
vkmcDaisy, How technical words should be translated? Or... should those be translated at all?00:54
Daisywhat does "technical words" mean, vkmc?00:54
gabrielcwi see some problems with that, because I was wondering if I translate the date string, if the datepicker of the code will have this option you know00:54
gabrielcwthe message says dd/mm/yy and the datepicker fills mm/dd/yy00:55
Daisygabrielcw: I don't know the technical details of date localization.00:55
Daisygabrielcw: I don't know how it is supported in Python framework.00:55
gabrielcwthere's some development effort needed to support this kind of thing00:55
gabrielcwdepends mostly of the UI I think, so it's JS00:56
vkmcDaisy, For instance, "Router" or "VIP"  (Virtual IP)... there are others more complex00:56
Daisyunderstand, vkmc .00:56
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DaisyIn my opinion, whether to translate technical words should be discussed within the language translation team and get a consensus.00:57
DaisyThen the whole language translation team should follow the agreement.00:57
DaisyThat's enough.00:58
vkmcDaisy, Sometimes there is a risk that the translation generates confusion, most technical users are used to read them in English00:58
dylanthat's good00:58
DaisyI know decision is hard to make, vkmc . :)00:58
vkmcYeah :)00:58
DaisyLike when I translate VCPU, I asked Akihiro Motoki what does it mean,00:58
DaisyI asked Akihiro Motoki whether he translated it.00:59
dylanI think this is also the problem for all translation projects00:59
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gabrielcwi got into this also00:59
Daisythere are some common questions, yes.00:59
Daisybut I'm open if different language teams have different answers.00:59
Daisytime is up.01:00
vkmcIt's yeah, and it's important that we create a dictionary of those words in each translation team and have it as a guide to keep consistency01:00
vkmcI will discuss it with the Spanish team01:00
DaisyIt looks like we need a lot of discussion within our mail list. I will summarize these questions together and send to mail list. so please actively express your idea in the mail list.01:01
dylan'a dictionary of those words in each translation team', that is necessary I think01:01
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DaisyI agree, dylan.01:01
DaisyThat can be a requirement to our translation tool.01:01
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DaisyOK. Nice to talk with you01:01
DaisyLooking forwad to continue the discussion by email.01:02
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vkmcYay :) Thanks all01:02
dylanNice talk01:02
DaisyThank you for joinning the meeting.01:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"01:02
openstackMeeting ended Thu Oct 17 01:02:31 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)01:02
gabrielcwthanks all, good day/evening!01:02
openstackMinutes (text):
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ujucgood day/evening :)01:04
vkmcNight here! :) o/01:04
gabrielcw10 pm here01:05
gabrielcwthanks, bye!01:06
ujuc Kekekeke01:06
vkmcWe are in the same timezone gabrielcw :o bye!01:06
ujucbye! :))01:06
gabrielcwbut how are we in the same timezone? spain right?01:07
vkmcNo, Argentina01:07
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gabrielcwi'm in brazil01:07
Daisy:) Thanks for keeping that late.01:08
gabrielcwHi Daisy :)01:08
dylanmorning in china :)01:08
gabrielcwthat's so intersting01:08
vkmcgabrielcw, Awesome :) We're neighbours heh01:08
DaisyI'm 9am now.01:09
ujucI'm 10am :)01:09
gabrielcwyeah, I'm in Porto Alegre, closer than you thought haha01:09
dylansame as Daisy01:09
DaisyIt's 9am here in Beijiing.01:09
vkmcDaisy, I'm glad to join01:09
gabrielcwI will get into summer time this saturday01:09
gabrielcwdoes this affects Argentina also?01:10
gabrielcwI have a friend in beijng01:10
gabrielcwat Ubisoft01:10
gabrielcwnot, it's in Shangai, sorry01:11
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vkmcDaisy, It's crazy to know you are starting your day... and I'm thinking about dinner :)01:11
gabrielcwdinner? i'm thniking about sleep!01:11
Daisyit's late for you to have dinner, vkmc.01:11
vkmcgabrielcw, It does yeah, summer time!01:11
DaisyI just heard you said it was 10pm now, vkmc.01:11
Daisydylan, where are you ?01:12
vkmcDaisy, Here we have dinner really late... it's not common I know01:12
Daisywhich city are you in, dylan?01:12
dylanNanjing, Daisy01:12
DaisyI like Nanjing very much.01:12
dylanstill a student :)01:12
DaisyMy sister is in Nanjing.01:12
Daisywhich school?01:12
dylanNanjing University01:13
gabrielcwlet me check google maps01:13
DaisyNanjing is a beautiful city, and cleaner than Beijing very much.01:13
dylanNanjing is close to Shanghai, gabrielcw01:13
gabrielcwnow I see!01:13
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DaisyNanjing is still warm and Beijing is very cool now.01:13
dylanBeijing is too crowd...01:13
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gabrielcwi'm not to be able to show up at summit to meet you all01:14
gabrielcwi'm not able, and sorry for that01:14
DaisyThe air is dirty in Bejing, usually, full of PM2.5 dirt.01:14
Daisysome of our team members will be there.01:15
Daisygabrielcw: if we continue to work together, I'm sure sometime we will meet. maybe next summit.01:15
dylanDirty air in Beijing even affects the choice of working place for many people01:15
gabrielcwI hope01:15
gabrielcwHP will send a guy01:15
gabrielcwfrom my labs here01:15
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Daisybtw, OpenStack Foundation has a program to sponsor people's travel and hotel for the summit.01:16
DaisyThis program is closed now.01:16
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DaisyBut some of us can try this program next time.01:17
vkmcI hope we can meet next year summit :) I'll try to be there01:17
dylanWell, I will try next year01:17
Daisyvkmc: although you don't know the city of next summit yet.01:17
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vkmcDaisy, I know, but distance is not a problem01:18
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vkmcI just know I want to meet with OpenStackers again01:19
Daisygreat ! Hope to see you next summit.01:20
vkmc:) Same here01:20
gabrielcwhey vkmc, go get some food! it's 10:20 already :)01:21
gabrielcwmy time has come, take care everyone!01:22
Daisybye, gabrielcw01:22
vkmcgabrielcw, I'm on it! Waiting for the dinner to cook itself but I ain't lucky01:22
DaisyHave a nice sleep.01:22
gabrielcwhaha thanks!01:22
Daisyvkmc: have a nice dinner01:22
vkmcTtyl, bye! :)01:22
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DaisyI have leave and go to office now.01:22
dylanbreakfast for me now, byebye!01:23
dylanbye, Daisy!01:23
DaisyHave a nice breakfast, dylan.01:23
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jd__#startmeeting ceilometer15:01
openstackMeeting started Thu Oct 17 15:01:05 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jd__. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer'15:01
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jd__hi everyone15:02
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jd__#topic Release python-ceilometerclient?15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Release python-ceilometerclient? (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:02
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eglynnno need as far I know15:03
jd__I think we're good on this one15:03
eglynnglobal requirements not yet updated to 1.06 BTW15:03
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silehteglynn, heat stack-update is currently broken I think due to this15:04
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eglynnsileht: due to needing 1.0.6?15:04
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silehteglynn, heat stack-update with a CM alarm won't work with ceilometerclient 1.0.515:05
eglynnsileht: k, we need to get that global requirements change landed asap so15:05
dhellmanndoes heat specify an upper bound for the client?15:05
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silehtdhellmann, no15:05
dhellmannwe really only need that requirements change in a hurry if something specifies an upper bound, right?15:06
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dhellmann+2 approved anyway15:06
eglynndhellmann: thanks!15:06
silehtdhellmann, thx15:07
eglynnso latest would be picked up in a totally *fresh* build, right?15:07
eglynn(but not where there's a preexisting virtualenv with 1.0.5 installed)15:07
silehteglynn, yes15:07
eglynncool, got it ...15:07
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dhellmannyes, that's right15:08
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jd__#topic Open discussion15:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:09
jd__we're out of topic15:09
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jd__I think we released Havana today though I've been busy and didn't check15:10
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jd__so congrats anyway! :)15:10
eglynnbreak out the cigars & champagne!15:10
thomasemeglynn, +115:10
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gordci had a quick question15:11
llu-laptopjd__: I remembed you mentioned merge the hardware agent with central agent. How to resolve the issue of multiple central agent?15:11
lexx_by the way, what with monitoring physical devices? how discussion with Ironic guys?15:11
lsmolallu-laptop, jd__ it should be just by configuration, right?15:11
gordcdoes any remember what the conditions for api access were? do you just need to be a member to query api or do you need to be admin... seems like you just need to be a member but that raises security concerns.15:12
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jd__llu-laptop: we're writing a blueprint about it15:12
dhellmanngordc: admins can query for any resource, regular users can only query for resources owned by the tenant they belong to15:12
jd__I think discussion with Ironic will be at the summit15:12
vvechkanov2Hello all. Open discussion so quikly? I have again the same question as 2 weeks ago? Are yuo planning to add different notifications plugins for sms and so on, or it will be realised not in ceilometer?15:13
dhellmanngordc: assuming you mean ceilometer's api15:13
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lsmolalexx_, ndipanov from Nova is starting working on that15:13
gordcdhellmann: yeah, that's roughly what i remember as well.15:13
dhellmanngordc: although with the changes in keystone's model, we probably need to rethink those rules to account for groups15:13
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lsmolalexx_, but seems that IMPI inspector is already in progress15:14
gordcdhellmann: i guess the only way to make it admin only is to make some coding changes on the side.15:14
lsmolalexx_, we will probably add ironic_ipmi_inspector then15:14
thomasemvvechkanov2, I would think Oslo would be the authoritative place for notification plugins.15:15
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lsmolallu-laptop, btw. in a week or so, I will have time to help you with anything on the agent, if you will need it :-)15:15
dhellmanngordc: why would you want to do that?15:15
thomasemvvechkanov2, That way all projects could benefit from such a thing15:15
lexx_lsmola_, Can I do something in this moment? I complete with IPMI inspector for Ceilometer15:16
vvechkanov2thomasem, we both mean the same? Alarm notifications?15:16
gordcdhellmann: sort of ties back to audit work. in some cases the data ceilometer captures may be priveliged15:16
dhellmanngordc: ok, I can see that15:16
gordc privileged data* ( i should learn to spell)15:16
nadyajust an update about HBase. We started to testing it but Ceilometer still cannot put data to it because of a bug. Continue working :)15:17
llu-laptopIsmola, thanks, let's see how this going.15:17
thomasemvvechkanov2, Not absolutely certain there. One of these other folks would probably know more about alarming than me.15:17
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sandywalshvvechkanov2: it would be nice to see alarm publishers unified with sample publishers15:17
eglynnwechkanov2: I was hoping Marconi/Foghorn will give us SNS-style notifications15:18
gordcdhellmann: i guess the question is how we make certain data 'privileged' and other data open to members.15:18
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llu-laptopOne more question about the Ironic/ceilometer. With Ironic, could we monitor physical machines other than those used like nova-compute node?15:18
dhellmanngordc: that sounds like a potentially large discussion15:18
gordcdhellmann: agreed.15:19
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lsmolalexx_, I see it's -2, well you will have to wait for the Ironic API I guess, try to ask Ironic guys if you can help in that area15:19
vvechkanov2eglynn, do you speaking with marconi's community about it? They have such things in plans?15:19
gordcdhellmann: i'll create a bp topic for it15:19
eglynnthere's a session proposed for summit15:19
eglynnwechkanov: ^^^ intending to discuss it there15:20
dhellmanngordc: good idea15:20
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eglynnFYI latest stable/grizzly release almost ready to fly
eglynn(pending ...)15:21
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nadyaguys, just a quick question about data-processing. Did you think about more complicated statistics besides min, max? Maybe about filtering?15:22
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lsmolallu-laptop, with tripleo, every hardware will be a nova instance, it is using nova-baremetal (ironic) for hardware management15:22
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lsmolallu-laptop, so it's not only for compute :-)15:22
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terriyunadya: I think there's a blueprint that mentions something about that15:23
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lsmolallu-laptop, they call it Undercloud, it's another openstack for managing the openstack :-)15:24
llu-laptopeglynn: just +2 and approved 5234815:24
eglynnllu-laptop: thank you sir!15:24
terriyunadya: look at
nadyaterriyu, thanks!15:25
llu-laptoplsmola: thanks for the information, I'll look at those.15:26
lsmolallu-laptop, you are welcome15:26
lsmolallu-laptop, I use this for setting up a development environment
terriyuhey everyone, just wanted to mention that OpenStack is participating again in the open source internship program15:27
lsmolallu-laptop, for hardware agent testing15:27
terriyuthe link is
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terriyufeel free to publicize it in Twitter / blog / email / etc15:28
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lsmolaterriyu, will do15:29
terriyuthanks lsmola !15:29
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terriyuthe deadline for the internship application is Nov 1115:29
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dperazahello all, also want to ask a question I filed this bug:
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1240994 in ceilometer "Havan rc2 acl scenarios failing due to timezone assumption (dup-of: 1238529)" [Undecided,In progress]15:30
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1238529 in ceilometer "keystoneclient 0.4.0 breaks Ceilometer" [Critical,Fix released]15:30
dperazabut it shows as dup of this:
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dperazawhich shows it has a fix release15:31
dperazawhat do I do there15:31
dperazacontinue working 1240994 or switch to 1238529 that is already in fix state?15:32
gordcjust for reference, i also see the same issue as dperaza.  the timezone issue seems to affect us in North America.15:32
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gordcsileht: dperaza bug relates to this patch.15:33
eglynndperaza: are you thinking 1240994 isn't really a duplicate of 1238529?15:33
dperazaI think is an additional issue15:33
dperaza1238529 did fix some things15:34
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silehtPerhaps I have miss something ?15:34
dperazathey are both casue by keystoneclient 0.4 move15:34
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eglynndperaza: in that case you can remove the duplicate setting15:35
gordcsileht: i think you guys in Europe can't see it. :)15:35
silehtgordc, oh15:35
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eglynndperaza: (then propose a separate fix for 1240994)15:35
dperazaI did already15:35
silehtdperaza, sorry15:35
* eglynn refreshes ...15:35
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dperazabut, my concern was the the bug show as dup15:36
gordcdperaza: i think it's safe to keep going with what you have.15:36
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eglynndperaza: did already remove the duplicate status?15:36
eglynndperaza: or did already propose a patch?15:36
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dperazadid already proposed a patch15:36
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eglynndperaza: a-ha, I see it now15:36
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eglynndperaza: (launchpad slow to update bug)15:37
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gordcdperaza: we'll have one of the Europe ppl to test that it works for them as well. i think it's a good idea to get rid of reference to begin with.15:37
silehtdperaza, I have removed my -1 and I will really review it so15:37
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eglynnshould we be using the olso timeutils version across the board?15:37
eglynn(i.e. instead of called directly ...)15:38
silehteglynn, I think it always better because it allows to mock the time easyly15:38
gordceglynn: that seems to be safer. been seeing a lot of timezone issues with
gordcsileht: agreed15:38
eglynnsileht: yep, agreed15:38
llu-laptopeglynn: agreed15:38
dperazaI do thing using utcnow whenever possible is good idea yes15:38
dragondmyah, OS times should *always* be utc.15:39
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thomasemdragondm, +115:39
dperazaif someone needs timezone dates they can always conver before showing15:39
dperazabut backend should store utc15:40
dragondmlocal times should only be used for user display.15:40
thomasemI don't care if it's redundant for me to say it, but that's how much I agree. +100015:40
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lsmolathomasem, +100115:41
thomasemWhoaaaaa price is right over here15:41
gordcthomasem: you're breaking DRY.15:41
thomasemgordc, you caught me15:41
gordcthomasem: lol you've taught me well.15:41
dragondmRule #1 of programming: Don't Repeat yourself.15:42
dragondmRule #2 of programming: Don't Repeat yourself.15:42
gordcdragondm: :)15:42
thomasemI thought it was don't talk about fight club?15:42
jd__should I close the meeting? :)15:43
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gordcjd__: works for me.15:43
lsmoladragondm, unless you write tests, then DAMP :-)15:43
eglynnjd__: yep, I think we're done15:43
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:44
openstackMeeting ended Thu Oct 17 15:44:08 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:44
jd__have fun guys15:44
openstackMinutes (text):
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thomasemTake it easy!15:44
lsmolathank you, bye15:44
terriyuhave a good day everyone15:44
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dperazathanks for the time15:45
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mtreinish#startmeeting qa17:02
openstackMeeting started Thu Oct 17 17:02:09 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mtreinish. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: qa)"17:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'qa'17:02
mtreinishhi sorry we're a couple min late, who is here?17:02
sdaguehey, folks17:02
sdagueyeh, who all is around... o/17:03
mlavallehi, want to report on Neutron testing17:03
mtreinishtoday's agenda is a single item?17:03
sdaguemtreinish: being release week, I didn't populate from last week17:03
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sdaguemy bad17:03
sdagueok, lets start with neutron17:03
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mtreinish#topic neutron17:03
sdaguethen the ceilometer one17:03
*** openstack changes topic to "neutron (Meeting topic: qa)"17:03
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mtreinishmlavalle: take it away17:04
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mlavallesdague: i've been working on
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1209446 in nova "nova security group extension doesn't handle neutron exception properly" [Medium,Fix released]17:04
sdaguemlavalle: ok, great17:04
mlavallesdague: I did a very thorough trace of network traffic in all the ports17:04
mlavallesdague: involved. So i'm pretty sure the network piece is ok17:05
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mlavallesdague: last night I ran the test but added my own tearDownClass to keep the instance alive17:05
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mlavallesdague: an attempted login with the key pair created by the test17:06
mlavallean it fails. so the problem is somewhere with the key pair machinery17:06
* kashyap waves hi17:06
mtreinishmlavalle: wasn't that similar issue to what was happening before in the basic network scenario test?17:07
mlavallethe ssh i ran was manual17:07
mlavalleyeah, it's the same test17:07
andreafmlavalle: does cirros cloud-init handle key injection properly? perhaps logging the console-log from the VM may help17:07
mlavalleandreaf: that's my suspicion now17:07
mlavallebecause the ssh was done manually by me17:08
afazekasandreaf: You cannot inject key into the cirros image, but it should get as metadata17:08
kashyap(Just a small note - cirros does run a bunch of networking commands as part of boot & throws them in its serial console log)17:08
mlavalleafazekas: so, any advice as to how to proceed?17:08
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andreafafazekas: yes that's what I meant, wrong wording sorry. the metadata goes through cloud-init, neutron and nova, so many points in which it could fail17:09
sdagueafazekas: were you using config drive to populate in your tests?17:09
sdagueafazekas: what approach were you taking17:09
mlavallekashyap: i'll take a look at that17:09
sdagueok, cool17:10
sdagueanything else on neutron?17:10
sdaguejd__: you around?17:10
kashyapmlavalle, If you're curious what commands it runs, when I started exploring OpenStack, I noted down them here (scroll to the end of post) -
mlavallesdague: yeah….17:11
afazekassdague: The instances are able to get the key in three way, one is the file injection (not working), the another one is via the metadata service, and the config drive17:11
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jd__just arrived17:11
sdagueafazekas: right, which way were you doing it?17:11
afazekasWe are using the metadata service in almost all cases17:11
mlavallesdague: one more thing…. doing this exercise i had to set a lot of tcpdump traces manualy across all the ports involved…..17:11
sdaguewe should probably change that to config drive, which is a little more reliable from my experience17:12
mtreinishsdague: yeah it's normally from the metadata service (except in the config drive tests :) )17:12
sdagueespecially when we are playing with networking17:12
mlavallesdague: would there be interest in adding debug code to tempest to be able to trace network traffic in tests?17:12
sdagueI could imagine us doing something totally crazy that gets in the way of the metadata service17:12
sdaguemlavalle: yes17:12
mlavallesdague: i would implement it17:12
sdaguemlavalle: you need sudo for tcpdump?17:12
andreafsdague: +1 there's a lot of the nw debugging which could be automated17:13
mlavallesdague: yes i do need sudo for tcpdump17:13
sdaguewe are currently running under a separate tempest user in the gate17:13
sdaguebut we have a sudo file for it, which has ip and iptables in it17:13
sdagueadding tcpdump is probably an option17:13
sdaguemlavalle lets take that over to -qa after the meeting17:13
afazekaswe should log  the nova console-log on unexpected failure, but AFAIK the metedata service is always expected to work, when the instance has connection to a router17:13
mlavallesdague: ok, i will create a blueprint and target it at icehouse17:13
sdaguemlavalle: great17:14
mlavallesdague: that's all i have17:14
mtreinishmlavalle: actually that brings up another thing I probably should have said earlier.17:14
sdagueafazekas: we had some interesting issues with metadata service in real environments, so moved to config drive17:14
mtreinishThis morning we branched tempest stable/havana17:14
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mtreinishso all merged commits are now for the icehouse release of tempest17:15
sdague#info Tempest master is now icehouse17:15
sdague#info stable/havana open for backports17:15
mtreinishsdague: that's more because of our weird network setup in the lab getting in the way17:15
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mlavallemtreinish: cool17:15
afazekassdague: AFAIK we returned back to the  metadata17:15
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sdaguemtreinish: yeh, but still, when the tests are manipulating the networks, it seems like removing moving parts might be good17:16
sdagueanyway, just a thought17:16
sdagueok, let's get on to the ceilo item17:16
mtreinish#topic Unblocking of Ceilometer QA testing (jd__, sileht)17:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Unblocking of Ceilometer QA testing (jd__, sileht) (Meeting topic: qa)"17:16
mtreinishjd__, sileht: you're up17:16
jd__so we're trying to add tests on Ceilometer using tempest for a while now17:17
jd__we hit a bug, it took a _very_ long time to track it down and we're trying to solve it17:17
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jd__the main point of this item in the agenda today is to stress you a bit on how important it is for Ceilometer :)17:17
sdagueso can you guys reorder the patches to put this as the bottom - - that way it won't be caught up on top of others17:18
sdagueI'll work with dtroyer to land that one today17:18
jd__ok cool17:18
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sdaguebut it will be simpler if it's not 3 deep in a patch queue17:19
jd__I think sileht can do that it shouldn't be long, sileht?17:19
silehtI do it now :)17:19
jd__sdague: you'd prefer just one patch?17:19
sdaguecool, thanks17:19
sdagueactually, it's good to have all of them, but that's the only one blocking you guys, so let's put it at the bottom and do it first17:20
jd__okay :)17:20
sdagueas the others are less urgent17:20
sdaguecool, great17:20
jd__so that's it for us if it's solved quickly without much debate :)17:20
silehtsdague, jd__ I have reorder the topic17:21
mtreinishjd__: ok, cool17:21
jd__that was fast :)17:21
silehtsdague, don't hesitate to ping me on irc, if you want a other change17:21
sdaguesileht: will do17:21
mtreinish#topic Design Summit Initial Planning (sdague)17:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Design Summit Initial Planning (sdague) (Meeting topic: qa)"17:21
mtreinishlets move on then17:21
sdaguesounds good17:21
sdagueSo I've been processing - so far17:22
sdagueand trying to align it with this -
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ravikumar_hpi have added one session today17:22
ravikumar_hpwhen it will be finalized?17:23
sdagueso far we have 6 for sure topics that we need to hit, and my feeling is scenario comes up into the list as well, and there is another grenade talk (yet proposed)17:23
sdagueravikumar_hp: end of next week17:23
sdaguethere are some cross over topics with infra & process that I need to coordinate with jeblair and ttx to make sure are covered17:23
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sdagueon topics we've seen before, but haven't seen code delivery in the cycle, I'm going to require a lot of up front justification and details to put them in17:24
sdaguebecause I want to make sure we are maximizing our time on things that we can make progress on in icehouse17:24
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sdagueso now is a good time to propose both in the etherpad, and on the summit page. I supose I should send out an email shaking out any other proposals :)17:26
sdagueI'll look to do that tomorrow17:26
sdagueany questions on summit?17:26
sdaguealso, who all expects to be there?17:26
mtreinish#action sdague to send out an email shaking out any other proposals17:26
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mtreinishsdague: o/17:26
sdagueman...that will be a small summit :)17:27
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sdagueguess we are missing a bunch of folks today in the meeting anyway17:27
mtreinishheh, yeah17:27
sdagueok, I guess open discussion time17:27
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mtreinish#topic open discussion17:27
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: qa)"17:28
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mtreinishdoes anyone have anything they'd like to bring up?17:28
sdagueso, anything else on folks minds?17:28
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afazekasMay be Fault injection testing can be an additional topic on the summit17:29
sdagueafazekas: possibly, is there a real plan of attacking that in icehouse?17:29
sdagueafazekas: actually, something I'd *really* like to see early in icehouse is fedora in the gate17:29
sdagueany idea if there is anyone at Red Hat that would take that on17:30
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afazekassdague: yes17:30
andreafone topic that interest me is how to collect and do stats on test results - on the gate we expect all tests to pass most of the time, but running tempest against a large scale cloud can bring up ~random errors, and I don't have the tools now to try and correlate such errors properly17:30
afazekasI will add it the the etharpd17:31
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sdagueafazekas: great17:31
afazekasshould we target f19 or f20 ?17:31
sdagueandreaf: would that be covered under the elastic-recheck session?17:31
sdagueafazekas: the details right now are less important to me, then someone that's committed to driving that forward17:31
kashyapafazekas, (Side note - F20 release date is around 1st week of Dec)17:32
afazekassdague: ok17:32
sdagueI'm totally happy setting asside a summit session to sort out all that would be required to get fedora into the pipeline17:32
mtreinishandreaf: it also might have overlap with the parallel testing moving forward session17:32
mtreinishpart of that will be about tooling to figure out what is going on17:32
sdaguemaking sure all the right infra folks are in the room17:32
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sdagueand what makes sense17:33
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sdagueandreaf: yeh, do you feel like we could cover it in one of those sessions? or should we plan something else on it?17:33
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sdagueok, other topics?17:34
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andreafsdague mtreinish yes it fits partly with both17:34
kashyapsdague, I participate in Fedora work from time to time. Is there any etherpad that has any issues that are specific to Fedora here, I maybe able to help in some small way here (or ping right people w/ expertise).17:34
sdaguekashyap: well more importantly we need someone to actually work through the details of getting it into the devstack gate17:35
sdagueI'm not sure that there is a list of issues per say, it's just a bunch of work, that no one has done17:35
sdagueand I feel that we as a community have said Ubuntu and Fedora are our targets, but there isn't any fedora upstream testing17:36
sdaguewhich means things like devstack break on fedora all the time17:36
kashyapNoted. I currently don't have hands-on expertise about gating, (and I'm focusing my energies on a couple of other things at $ day job). But, I use Fedora for all my work, will see what I can do here.17:36
sdagueit really needs a leader to do the integration17:36
sdaguecool, thanks17:36
sdagueok, any other topics?17:37
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sdagueI think we can probably take other discussions over to #openstack-qa, and call it a meeting17:37
sdagueand Happy Release Day folks!17:37
sdagueall your efforts are a huge part of what made us a successful Havana release17:37
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:38
openstackMeeting ended Thu Oct 17 17:38:15 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:38
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bdpayne#startmeeting OpenStack Security Group18:01
openstackMeeting started Thu Oct 17 18:01:12 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is bdpayne. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group'18:01
bdpaynehi everyone18:01
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bdpaynewho do we have here today?18:01
hyakuheiI'm here.18:02
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hyakuheiThough I'm on a call so I'm multi-tasking.18:02
bdpaynehi there hyakuhei18:02
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bdpaynealright, looks pretty quite today18:03
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bdpayneFor my part, I've continued to be pretty heads down with internal work here at my company18:03
bdpayneAnd doing a little summit planning18:03
bdpayneSo I don't have much to report18:03
bdpayneAnything that people want to discuss today?18:04
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malini1Good morning!18:04
thomasbiege4looks like a short meeting today :)18:04
hyakuheiIs anyone here actively engaging with CloudKeep/Barbican?18:04
bdpaynemalini1 is18:04
bdpayneI think18:04
bdpaynealso I believe some people from APL are18:05
bdpaynebut I don't see them here today18:05
malini1bdpayne -- correct on both counts18:05
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bdpayneOk, so before everyone steps away18:06
bdpayneCould we get updates on what people are working on18:06
bdpaynewith regards to OpenStack and/or Security18:07
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malini1Intel is in discussions with various OpenStack companies to scale out TXT18:07
malini1that is trusted compute pools18:08
bdpaynemalini1 If that's true, you should talk with me about that too18:08
malini1Cool, will do18:08
bdpayneany other updates from people?18:09
malini1BTW, do you want a book on TXT, hot off the press by Jim Greene? Hyakuhei?18:09
bdpaynenice to know where people are working18:09
bdpaynemalini1 Certainly18:09
bdpayne(re the book)18:09
malini1OK, one for you18:09
bdpayneOk, since people are being so quite… I'll go18:10
bdpayneI'm working to get organized for the summit18:11
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bdpayneAnd I'm trying to think a bit more strategicly for future directions for OSSG18:11
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bdpayneMore tactically, I may be getting more involved with Keystone… but that's still a little tbd based on some things back here at the company18:12
malini1One of my TODOs was to go through the list of proposed design sessions to get the pulse of the OS developers18:12
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bdpaynethomasbiege4 or hyakuhei care to share what you've been up to?18:13
malini1At the summit, our Intel team would like to drive some closure on compute node usage statistics representation and communication. it is chiefly related to performance and network traffic.18:15
malini1useful for billing and scheduling based on actual usage18:15
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bdpayneok, looks like that's all we have for today then18:15
bdpaynethanks everyone…18:15
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"18:16
openstackMeeting ended Thu Oct 17 18:16:06 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:16
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malini1some of our patches never made it in because the community could not agree, a single json DB column, multiple rows18:16
openstackMinutes (text):
hyakuheiwow that was quick.18:16
malini1You guys have me cracking up!18:16
hyakuheimalini1: yes, very intersted thanks18:16
malini1it was kind of quite today18:16
malini1ok one for you too18:16
bdpaynesorry, I didn't mean to cut anyone off18:17
bdpaynejust seemed like people were otherwise engaged18:17
hyakuheiThat way when I hire Bryan, we'll be all up to date :P18:17
malini1Till next week then!18:17
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harlowja#startmeeting state-management20:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Oct 17 20:00:26 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is harlowja. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: state-management)"20:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'state_management'20:00
harlowjahowdy folks20:00
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harlowjastate-management fun time starts nnooow20:00
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harlowjaanyone here, ha20:02
harlowjaif not, short meeting :-P20:02
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ativelkov_Hi, I am here20:02
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harlowjahi hi20:02
melnikovhi there20:02
tsufiev_hello there20:02
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harlowjanew people, sweet!20:03
* harlowja will wait a few for others20:03
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harlowjaalright :)20:04
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harlowja#topic last_time_action_items20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "last_time_action_items (Meeting topic: state-management)"20:04
harlowjai think i had the action items so can describe results20:05
harlowjaone was from a previous week, and finally did it @
harlowjasome of what i consider good practices for taskflow usage20:05
harlowja*feel free to tell me they aren't good, ha20:05
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harlowjamelnikov do u want to add any, or do those sorta make sense?20:06
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harlowja*if u've checked them out20:06
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harlowjaother things i was supposed to do20:07
harlowjamanila chit-chat about taskflow20:07
melnikovi checked them out, looks nice20:07
harlowjaso i did manila chit-chat, gonna talk with one of there folks about taskflow (who is actively using/investigating it)20:08
harlowjasince manila is based off cinder, they'd like to follow some of the same patterns20:08
harlowjathx melnikov20:08
harlowjaalright, don't think there was any other action items that i can remember20:09
harlowja#topic overall-effort20:09
*** openstack changes topic to "overall-effort (Meeting topic: state-management)"20:10
harlowjaso i think today is a pretty big milestone for us, 0.1 i think will be going onto pypi very shortly20:10
harlowjaits been like 4 months to get here, and i think we have a pretty good base to move forward with :)20:10
changbli still see a few commits in review?20:10
harlowjaya, 2 i think20:11
harlowjai don't expect the infra people to +2 for a day though20:11
ativelkov_Sounds great. Is it related to Havanna release, or these are independent milestones?20:11
harlowjaativelkov_ for now they are independent milestones, although i think its good to keep in a similar pace20:11
harlowjaso after i think 2 more reviews, melnikov do u want to approve,
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harlowjathen when the above 2 reviews are infra approved, a package should show up on
harlowja*at least thats what the infra people told me would happen, ha20:12
harlowja+- some additional voodoo, ha20:13
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changblI guess commits like ( will be left out from 0.1?20:14
harlowjalets see, hopefully melnikov can get your comments addressed20:14
harlowjai think its ok if it is, i don't think its critical20:15
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harlowjaso thanks to all that helped make it possible :)20:16
harlowja*high five*20:16
caitlin56harlowja: I have some questions on the BestPractices page. Shift over to #state-management or just talk about them here?20:17
changbl+1 to all20:17
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harlowjacaitlin56 maybe in open-discuss we can do that?20:17
melnikov^^ for high five)20:17
caitlin56harlowja: sounds good.20:17
harlowjaso i hope by this weekend, we will have 0.1 package on pypi, all things working out, it seems reasonable20:18
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harlowja*unless i missed some voodoo that i have to do20:18
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melnikovi hoped to address those two storage things before release20:19
harlowjaif anyone knows i missed some voodoo, please let me know :)20:19
melnikovshould finish tomorrow20:19
harlowjasounds good melnikov20:19
harlowja#topic integration next steps for icehouse20:20
*** openstack changes topic to "integration next steps for icehouse (Meeting topic: state-management)"20:20
harlowjaso this one is an interesting one, and i think we have some good traction that likely will just have to wait for the summit to see whats next20:20
harlowjaalthough i'm all for trying to work with others before the summit, and i think we have some of that ongoing20:20
harlowjanova @
harlowjaand a few others20:21
harlowjaand lots of summit sessions20:21
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harlowjaso i think we can just continue that, try to organize as much as we can, and then 'just make it happen'20:21
harlowjamaybe we should start a common icehouse etherpad, sound reasonable?20:22
harlowjato keep track of what/where/who20:22
changblsounds good20:22
harlowja#action harlowja start that etherpad20:23
melnikovwhat about adding milestone to launchpad, to tag blueprints and stuff20:23
harlowjamelnikov do u want to try that, i think its not so hard20:23
changblwhat future milestones do we have now?20:23
harlowja0.2? :)20:24
harlowjai think we need to get the basic job stuff going, since thats missing20:24
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harlowjaand maybe a basic locking api20:24
harlowjaor others on that people think are relevant20:25
harlowjait'd be nice to have basic to20:25
harlowja*etherpad there on whiteboard20:25
harlowjaand whatever else comes out of icehouse discussions20:25
harlowjaseem reasonable?20:26
* harlowja we can adjust the priority of those blueprints if we want to20:26
gokrokveWhen do you plan to release a version 0.2?20:27
melnikovi thinking we need just one Icehouse milestone, and release 0.2 (0.3 and so on) as soon as we have enough major features ready20:27
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changblCan someone illustrate more on conditional flow? seems we are making flows more complex20:27
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harlowjai'm fine with that, melnikov so at openstack milestones we would have a declared 'major' release, minor in between20:28
gokrokveSounds good. I am just thinking about other project that might depend on taskflow.20:28
gokrokveThay will not want to wait until Icehouse official release.20:28
harlowjasure, then they can take in minor releases?20:28
ativelkov_They can always use the latest trunk as well20:29
* caitlin56 agrees with gokrokve. I want to add cinder code using taskflow by end of icehouse, not be ready to code for j*whatever.20:29
gokrokveSo you need to have 0.2 release tested and release at Icehouse M1 to allow others to use stable version for development and testing20:30
harlowjacaitlin56 i think thats fine, there will be a release, just i think what qualifies as 0.2 (0.3...) we can debate on, maybe each blueprint is a minor release20:30
caitlin56we need an API freeze date well before the implementation freeze date.20:31
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harlowjasure, seems reasonable20:31
gokrokveharlowja: You can do a release per feature but your VC tree will have a lot of branches for parallel deelopment.20:31
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gokrokveAPI freezy sounds very reasonable.20:32
gokrokveAPI freeze sounds very reasonable.20:32
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harlowjaok, then maybe a good idea is for folks to check out and think about what they want in 0.2, the above was my suggestion :)20:32
harlowjaand i don't think those suggestions alter the API20:32
harlowjathen we can come back to this also after summit discussions20:33
gokrokveI think you need to have some estimations for each BP and than plan release 0.2 accordingly taking into account dates and estimations.20:33
gokrokveDon't forget to multiply ETA by 2. :-)20:33
harlowjaalso depends on who is going to do all those BPs ;)20:33
rakhmerovor even 3.1415 :)20:33
harlowjaya, release 0.31415 ftw, ha20:34
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gokrokveharlowja: this is multiplication factor Pi for estimations :-)20:34
rakhmerovright :)20:34
* caitlin56 isn't sure that you want to admit a given release is irrational.20:35
rakhmerovkind of a joke, but it usually works pretty well from the experience20:35
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harlowjaok, so how about the following, we can work on and expand and clear those up, so certain ones are more clear (addressing changbl question)20:35
harlowjaand we can then see about 3.145 estimations20:36
harlowjaand then come back here and fight over that, ha20:36
harlowja*don't all take all the work at once, ha20:36
gokrokveSounds good.20:36
changblharlowja, please assign zk-logbook BP to me20:36
rakhmerovgood to me20:36
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gokrokveSo lets agree that on next meeting we will have rough estimations for each BP.20:37
harlowjaand if some of them aren't clear, #openstack-state-management so that we can make them clear20:37
harlowjai think thats fair gokrokve20:37
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harlowja*and pretty detailed summary of what it is20:37
gokrokveBy the way who is responsible for testing?20:37
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gokrokveso u have only unit tests?20:38
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harlowjacorrect, but its a library, so we can pretty much tests the full system20:39
rakhmerovI believe it doesn't assume anything else20:39
* harlowja not sure what a integration test would mean in this case20:39
caitlin56You really need two distinct layers of testing. 1) test the engine. 2) test the patterns that use the engine.20:39
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harlowjaya, we have that20:39
gokrokveok. so we have ongoing testing with jenkins.20:39
harlowjayes, on going mr.jenkins tests stuff20:39
harlowja*not sure of the coverage, although we can probably get it20:40
rakhmerovit's all, in fact, unit testing20:40
harlowjai think we've been pretty dillegent about it20:40
gokrokveWhat is the coverage?20:40
harlowjaunsure, haven't ran that, we should probably get an idea there20:40
gokrokveDo you use static analysis? It should work great for library like code.20:40
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harlowjaya, openstack uses pylint and flake8 which are its static analysis20:41
caitlin56The syntax allows specification of patterns that make no sense. So exhaustive testing is clearly not feasible.20:41
harlowja*as static as u can get20:41
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harlowjagokrokve and mr.jenkins runs those static analysis for us20:41
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harlowjamr.jenkins is very nice20:41
harlowjai think we can get him to run coverage for us to20:41
harlowjajust likely haven't turned on that job20:41
harlowjai can investigate that, shouldn't be hard20:42
gokrokveYes. It will be great. It is a good indicator of confidence.20:42
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harlowja#action harlowja see about turning on coverage20:42
harlowjai think its a small change to do that20:43
rakhmerovbut not 100% guarantee, imho20:43
harlowjais anything a 100% guarantee :)20:43
harlowjanot even US government 100% guarantee20:43
gokrokveThis is a real life. Nobody guarantee 100%.20:43
rakhmerovok, even 80%20:43
changbl+1 not even US government 100% guarantee :)20:43
rakhmerovI mean, I've seen people making test coverage 100%20:44
harlowjataskflow not recommended for missle/mars usage20:44
rakhmerovbuy the system kept working wrong20:44
harlowja*my disclaimer, ha20:44
gokrokveI saw projects with 100% coverage and great failures in production :-)20:44
harlowjaif u running your missle system on taskflow, u might want to reconsider, ha20:45
rakhmerovcoverage is not a purpose itself, need to realize that20:45
rakhmerovnot a goal evean20:45
harlowjak, i'll get u guys that going20:45
harlowjaswitching topic :)20:46
harlowja#topic HK summit speaker ideas20:46
*** openstack changes topic to "HK summit speaker ideas (Meeting topic: state-management)"20:46
gokrokveYep. I remember a story when Soviet Lunar probe missed  Moon because of floatin number used in math library. Small errors produces a big deviations on large scale.20:46
rakhmerov:)))) haha20:46
harlowjaya, i think NASA did the same thing with mars20:46
harlowjasome metric conversion problem, lol20:46
rakhmerovand not once :)))20:46
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harlowjaso i tried to fill in more of that one20:47
harlowja*although currently the page isn't loading for me :-/20:47
harlowjaah there we go20:47
rakhmerovI have seen that20:47
harlowjai'll likely have to slim it down20:47
harlowjaas i start making slides and stuff for the speaker stuff20:48
rakhmerovgood points, nothing actually to argue about20:48
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harlowjarakhmerov in openstack, always something to argue about :)20:48
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harlowjai bring my battle armor20:48
gokrokveharlowja: Do you have a presentation on HK summit?20:48
rakhmerovwell, not in this case :)20:48
harlowjagokrokve yup, not only presentation, complete speaker session20:48
rakhmerovgood point to bring up on the summit20:48
harlowjawhere people ahve to listen to me and kebray talk20:48
harlowjaif u guys want to writeup some mistral stuff, i can try to include also20:49
harlowjasince Convection is mentioned in that overview20:50
harlowja*aka mistral20:50
changblseems mistral is quite similar to what taskflow does?20:50
changbli read the blog from mirantis20:50
rakhmerovwell, I think we have things to discuss in this context20:50
gokrokveharlowja: Sure.20:50
harlowjachangbl ongoing discussions there, is mistral just a API/service using taskflow...20:50
harlowjaidk quite yet either20:51
changblgot it20:51
gokrokvechangbl: It is not a substitution of taskflow. it is a next layer around taskflow.20:51
changblwe need to figure out20:51
harlowjachangbl of course20:51
harlowjaworking with gokrokve rakhmerov (and others) on that20:51
harlowja  #openstack-mistral20:51
rakhmerovbasically, yes, that's right. Mistral was targeting to implement ideas in Convection20:51
rakhmerovWe have so many ideas above that :)))20:51
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harlowjalots of ideas :-P20:52
rakhmerovright :)20:52
harlowjaso rakhmerov  gokrokve not only speaker session, but also summit sessions20:52
rakhmerovdont' be angry at me for this :))20:52
changblrakhmerov, you are here, you wrote the blog:)20:52
kebraycan we have a combined meeting with Mistral folks prior to summit?  We should figure out our similar and different views and at least know where we all stand prior to summit.20:52
harlowjakebray i think thats a reasonable ask, i'd be up for that20:52
kebrayAnyone want to volunteer to pull that meeting together?  Can be over IRC, or google hangout, or whatever.20:52
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rakhmerovyeah, that's exactly what we're trying to do20:53
kebrayIf not, I'll do it.. but, would prefer if someone else can drive it.20:53
harlowjaalso i have (search for taskflow) so those are 2 different type of meetins20:53
harlowjarakhmerov i think is workin on that20:53
rakhmerovwe have so many great things to discuss, you won't believe :)20:53
harlowja*waiting for mind to be blown20:53
kebrayrakhmerov cool.. good to have more people involved!20:53
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ativelkov_yup, and it turns out that some of them require some beer to understand :-)20:54
rakhmerovnp, we're interested in that very much20:54
rakhmerov:)) haha20:54
harlowjarakhmerov so maybe when we decide a time, openstack-dev list, then others can join20:54
rakhmerovrecalling today's discussion, definitely20:54
rakhmerovyes, sure20:54
gokrokve#AI Renat to organize a hangout meeting20:55
harlowja#action Renat to organize a hangout meeting20:55
harlowjaone of those will work, ha20:55
harlowjaso i might skip a few of the agenda, for next time, not enough for  time left20:56
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harlowjaseeing that 4 minutes left :)20:56
harlowja#topic open-discuss20:56
*** openstack changes topic to "open-discuss (Meeting topic: state-management)"20:56
gokrokve#AI Gosha has to provide some text about Mistral for Josh20:56
harlowjathx, that'd be suepr20:56
harlowjacaitlin56 u around, 3 minutes, or maybe we can continue in #openstack-state-management20:57
harlowjawanted to answer your question on the best practices i created20:57
rakhmerovguys, I just wanna deliver the main message here: looks like we dont' have a service like this in the whole ecosystem. We need to carefully think about the target user group, project mission and main conceptual ideas20:57
harlowjarakhmerov +120:57
caitlin56Can start. The key thing that is missing is a definitionof what a "Flow" is.20:57
harlowja ?20:58
rakhmerovthe further is more interesting ;)20:58
caitlin56Specifically, if you launch two tasks of the same pattern, what happens. Who is responsible for keeping the work separate?20:58
rakhmerovyep, have seen that :)20:58
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harlowjacaitlin56 so engines are what actually run the 'work'20:59
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harlowjalets continue in other channel i think20:59
rakhmerovnot a question for now. We need to define first what we want users (who exactly?) can do with this service20:59
caitlin56Do the engines name all resources that the tasks work with? If so, highlight that in the best practices.20:59
rakhmerovharlowja: agree20:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"21:00
openstackMeeting ended Thu Oct 17 20:59:59 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:00
openstackMinutes (text):
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harlowjato the other channel then!21:00
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russellbnova meeting starting in a minute21:01
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russellb#startmeeting nova21:02
openstackMeeting started Thu Oct 17 21:02:00 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is russellb. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:02
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)"21:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova'21:02
russellbhello, everyone!21:02
russellbcongratulations on the havana release!  \o/21:02
openstackjog0: Error: "!" is not a valid command.21:02
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russellbi considered canceling today ... as dansmith put it, "today should be a day where the class watches a movie while the teacher sleeps off her hangover"21:02
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russellbi was amused21:03
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russellbbut we can catch up quickly :)21:03
russellbso things going on ... design summit!21:03
russellbsession proposal deadline is today21:03
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russellband starting tomorrow we will be deciding on the session list and making a schedule21:03
russellbhopefully will have the draft schedule completed by the end of next week21:03
russellbIcehouse blueprints - please file them :-)21:04
russellbto get them reviewed, the trigger is to target them to a release milestone (icehouse-1/2/3)21:04
russellbat some point (probably next month) we're going to go through and close most things untargeted as effectively abandoned21:05
russellbto clean up the list a bit21:05
russellbi'll post to the ML about that, as well21:05
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tjonesrussellb: other that adding the proposal - here - is there anything else i need to do to to bring it to your attention for review tomorrow?21:05
* russellb looks21:05
tjonesoops - wait21:05
russellblink isn't working21:06
tjonesyeah - just a sec *blush*21:06
russellb ?21:06
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russellblooks good21:07
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russellbany other blueprint questions?21:07
russellberr i meant summit21:07
russellbbut summit or blueprint i guess21:07
russellbnext thing ... we've been talking a lot about CI for each compute driver21:07
russellbcongrats to the VMWare team for getting theirs up and running!21:07
russellbyou will now start seeing "VMWare Mine Sweeper" vote on reviews21:08
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jog0very exciting21:08
russellbtjones: really, totally thrilled to see the progress, setting a good example for others21:08
tjonesadding +1 on success, nothing on failure while we triage.  −1 once we are confident21:08
russellbeven beyond just nova21:08
russellbso let us know how things continue to progress21:09
tjoneswill do21:09
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russellband I think that's all the project status stuff I really had for this week21:09
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russellbanyone have any topics for today?21:09
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jog0russellb: yeah21:10
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mriedemrussellb: yeah, but jog0 go first21:10
jog0we should make it clear what is required from a BP detail wise21:10
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russellbyeah, i'm not sure we have any documented guidelines for that ...21:11
jog0one thing  is I think we should have the docImpact details in the blueprint21:11
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russellbthat's the page we should use21:12
russellbunless we want to start Nova/Blueprints for some nova specific guidelines21:12
russellband then link over to this one for some general info21:12
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russellbbut I do like the docimpact info on there21:12
russellbeither on the blueprint itself, or the linked design wiki page21:12
jog0is what annegentle wants21:13
russellbok great21:13
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russellbi think the other thing we need to do is encourage more design info and review up front21:13
russellband with some additional people helping review blueprints, it should be more practical to do that21:13
jog0++, thats all for me thanks21:14
russellbsome other things to think about ... prioritization21:14
russellbwe need to be careful how much we approve at given priorities21:14
russellbbecause we only have so much review bandwidth21:14
johnthetubaguy+1 at least set expectations more clearly I guess?21:14
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russellbyeah, not sure how to best handle it yet21:15
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johnthetubaguyI liked the medium we track it and talk to people21:15
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johnthetubaguylow, best of luck if we have time?21:15
russellbanother problematic case is when people sign up to deliver in icehouse-1, but deliver in icehouse-321:15
russellband we end up with 80 blueprints in icehouse-321:15
russellbthat basically happened in havana21:15
russellband we're *still* catching flak for not merging everything in h321:15
russellbyes, that's the project-wide proposal for how to apply low vs higher now21:16
johnthetubaguyyeah, good point21:16
russellbbut probably need to communicate that well21:16
johnthetubaguyI guess we should reject more features down to low, if they slip?21:16
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russellbi like that a lot actually21:16
russellbyou broke the social contract, so it's back to best effort if we can :)21:16
johnthetubaguyyeah, agree at the beginning all the medium and above21:16
johnthetubaguythen low for everything else from that point, if at all21:17
leifHow does a group determine which window to put it in?21:17
russellbleif: whichever one you think you can have it completed and reviewed for21:17
johnthetubaguywhen they thing they will get it done?21:17
russellbit's on the developer(s)21:17
dansmitheverything at medium to start?21:17
tjonesis there any way to show how complex a BP is likely to be to implement ?  If so, you can push for those to make i-1, i-2 or be dropped?21:17
russellbtjones: we can guess :) ... and hopefully the dev proposing it has an idea21:17
jog0tjones: hopefully the BP description will say that21:18
leifSo rules motivate getting a late slot.21:18
tjonesok - they should be in the BP desc.  I didn't see a way to explicitly say21:18
russellbthere's also a downside to getting a late slot21:18
russellbmuch less likely to accept complex/invasive things later21:18
russellband you're also at much higher risk at competing with a higher review load on the backend21:18
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russellbso it's really in everyone's best interest to deliver as early as is practical21:19
jog0tjones: there is no specific spot for it, but the BP should cover that level of detail (how it will be implmented risk etc)21:19
dansmithso, wait, I got distracted for a sec..21:19
* russellb waits21:19
dansmithis the proposal that everything starts at medium and can slip to low if need be?21:19
dansmithI thought johnthetubaguy said that, but I definitely don't think that's workable21:19
russellbi don't agree everything gets medium automatically21:20
johnthetubaguyI think everything we bother to track is medium21:20
dansmithright, okay21:20
russellbyeah, but still, a lot will be Low21:20
johnthetubaguyor higher21:20
johnthetubaguyyeah, things are low by default I think21:20
russellblots of stuff is "nice to have" but we'd be OK if it didn't make it21:20
dansmithI would word that differently21:20
dansmithnot "everything we track is medium or above" because... we're tracking all that stuff in the tracker, even low stuff,21:20
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dansmithbut rather "everything we expect to be mandatory reviews" or something like that21:21
johnthetubaguyI guess its important stuff, that got a slot first, that we thing we will have time to review21:21
dansmithI mean, we don't have to quibble over words, I was just worried something different was being proposes21:21
russellbso ... if it's mandatory reviews ... should we have core reviewers sign up on a blueprint before bumping it above low?21:21
dansmither, proposed21:21
russellbshould we confirm that we have people willing to "sponsor" it?21:21
johnthetubaguyhmm, that would help with the blueprint review, I quite like that21:21
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dansmithrussellb: maybe, that's kinda scary given how many mediums there were21:22
dansmithbut I can see that for high ones for sure21:22
russellbyes, it might mean we have more low21:22
russellbbut maybe that's a better reflection of reality21:22
russellbvs me just making stuff up21:22
* mrodden assigns all mediums to dansmith by default.21:22
dansmithsure, if that's going to make more things low,21:22
dansmiththen I'm down with that :)21:22
johnthetubaguyyeah, more low things sets the expectation better I think21:22
* dansmith -2's all mrodden's patches21:22
russellband is a way to control how much we actually think we can review21:23
mroddenthat already happens21:23
russellband *may* even help encourage some companies to put more devs on general work :)21:23
dansmithI think this is an excellent thing to shoot for,21:23
russellbif they have core folks, they can sign up on reviews, etc21:23
jog0I like the idea of having cores assigned to BPs but I think more important is a review of the BP itself21:23
dansmithbut lets make sure we have a back way out if we start actually reviewing blueprints and decide that it's not going to work to try to put someone's name on everything :)21:23
russellbheh, fair enough21:24
dansmithso maybe two cores for a medium and four for a high?21:24
russellba nice goal perhaps ...21:24
russellbfour huh?21:24
mroddenideally, if core's had an incentive to sponsor a BP they would probably have more incentive to review the changes associated21:24
jog0I think a better BP review (make sure the propsal is good and the design is sound etc) will get us further21:24
jog0for less effort21:24
johnthetubaguywell, has to pass review by cores to get a priority?21:25
dansmithrussellb: four to spread out the liability of one person being jammed up and blocking obligatory review of the blueprint because they're half the folks committed21:25
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russellbcould even be 1 for medium, 2 for high, and 3 for essential ... it'd be better than now21:25
russellbbut i guess 1 doesn't necessarily guarantee it gets the review time21:25
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jog0dansmith: lets try doing this for I-1 for high or above only and see how it goes21:25
johnthetubaguyI like having more than one on all of them, to review the review, etc21:25
dansmithjohnthetubaguy: exactly21:26
russellbjog0: heck, might as well try for the mediums too21:26
jog0before we commut fully21:26
jog0russellb: sure21:26
jog0concerned about bandwidth and flexibility21:26
dansmithjog0: well, I think we might as well commit to the whole thing for mediums and above for I1 and just not promise to keep it up until we decide we like it21:26
russellbi like that, put this out as an experimental process if icehouse-1 and see how it goes21:26
russellbawesome!  i like this.21:27
jog0works for me.  we should have a BP review party at the summit21:27
dansmithI like this right now21:27
* dansmith pulls a comstud21:27
russellbdansmith: but you reserve the right to hate it tomorrow?21:27
dansmithof course21:27
* russellb nods21:27
dansmithsubject to change without warning21:27
* johnthetubaguy giggles21:27
jog0where we divvy up the BPs21:27
cyeohjog0: that sounds good and will encourage people to get BPs in before the summit21:28
jog0cyeoh: yeah :(21:28
dansmithI don't think we can have them all  filed by summit, many will be created during it21:28
russellbskip the drinking and have a nice geek blueprint review party?  :-)21:28
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russellbmany will be created during, and a *bunch*, maybe most, the week after as a result of dicussions and decisions21:28
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jog0we could start with what we have21:28
dansmithwe could21:28
jog0or just go to the parties21:29
russellbi'm usually pretty fried at night, doubt it's that practical21:29
russellbi may be hiding in a room to be alone for a few minutes21:29
russellbspeaking of summit and hanging out ... we should really all try to spend some time hanging out at the summit21:29
russellbteam building!21:29
johnthetubaguy1I would vote for doing something in this meeting the following week? deice what you fancy21:29
russellbjohnthetubaguy1: yeah, that's fine, but we can dabble a bit in the meantime21:30
russellbthere's not many proposed yet21:30
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russellbok, so, lots of improvements for issues we've had wrapped up in this discussion, really great stuff21:31
russellbthanks guys21:31
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russellbmriedem: you had a topic?21:31
mriedemrussellb: just a call for a core review on a patch,21:31
mriedemthat was falling to the bottom of the review pile i think in one of the stats pages21:31
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mriedemcyeoh looked at it last night21:31
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mriedemthe author has been kind of asking intermittently but his timezone doesn't help much (china)21:32
russellbyeah, pretty old it seems21:32
mriedemi told him i'd ask here21:32
dansmithmriedem: tell him to move21:32
russellbnice of you :)21:32
mriedemanyway, that's it fro mme21:32
mriedemand i got mock working! woohoo21:33
mriedemyou can all enjoy reviewing that soon21:33
russellbdo you have a sponsor for that patch?  :-p21:33
mriedemmy mock one?21:33
russellbjust a joke and reference to the last discussion21:33
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mriedemoh, missed most of it getting these damn tests to run21:33
russellbwhich was actually only in reference to blueprints, not individual patches21:34
russellbany other topics today?21:34
mriedemall i heard was it's ok to dump blueprints in I321:34
johnthetubaguydid we chat about summit sessions already?21:34
cyeohmriedem: and assign then to dansmith21:34
russellbjohnthetubaguy: not in much detail, just mentioning that today was the deadline21:34
russellbjohnthetubaguy: did you get my message about meeting tomorrow to start the review?21:34
johnthetubaguyrussellb: cool, ah, not yet, been out this evening21:35
russellbjust checked and we have **19** more proposals than time slots (31)21:35
russellbjohnthetubaguy: hm, was a couple days ago21:35
russellbjohnthetubaguy: will msg21:35
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russellbjohnthetubaguy: any you want to discuss now?21:36
russellbany other topics from anyone?21:38
mroddenwas there any more news on the midyear meetup?21:39
russellboh, good question21:39
russellb... no21:39
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russellband that's my fault, basically21:39
comstuddang right it is21:39
comstudthat's something I can commit to21:40
cyeohwe're having a post (Jan) meetup for those who will be around21:40
comstudthe statement, not the meeting21:40
russellbcyeoh: nice21:40
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russellbcomstud: i can also commit to talking bad about at summit while you're not there to defend yourself21:40
comstudi'm sure you wouldn't be the first21:41
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russellbmrodden: so, i need to follow up on that, will work on it21:42
russellbthanks for coming everyone!21:42
mroddenrussellb: k thanks21:42
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reedis the board meeting happening also here?23:04
reedmy internet is borked, can't connect via webex23:04
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fifieldtthere's some people in #openstack-foundation reed23:06
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