Tuesday, 2013-11-12

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annegentlehey all14:05
annegentlelet's get started14:05
chandankumarannegentle, hello14:06
annegentle#startmeeting DocTeamMeeting14:06
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 12 14:06:14 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is annegentle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:06
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:06
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)"14:06
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'docteammeeting'14:06
annegentleHere's our Agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/DocTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting14:06
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annegentleLet's see, action items from last meeting, all the way back in October.14:06
annegentle#topic Action items from last meeting14:06
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annegentlewow no actions last time, see http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteammeeting/2013/docteammeeting.2013-10-22-13.01.html14:07
annegentle#topic Report from the Summit14:07
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annegentle#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2013-November/003252.html14:08
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annegentleI wrote that post so that we could ensure we all agreed, wish Tom were here so he could discuss his finer points14:08
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* chandankumar is going through the link.14:09
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annegentleI think the doc representation was me, Summer, Tom, and Stephen Gordon, though I also talked to team members who work on docs like Brian Rosmaita for glance, and Edgar for neutron, and cyeoh for the v3 API14:09
sgordonannegentle, i was working on something else on the plan but it's going to take a while14:09
sgordonsome QE guys here and i were mulling the possibility of doing some docs CI14:10
annegentlesgordon: the plan will take a while?14:10
sgordonby extracting the commands from the XML and then running them via tempest or something of that ilk14:10
annegentlesgordon: oh ok, for API docs or for all docs?14:10
sgordoni think it would assist with the testing period14:10
sgordoni think for targeted installation guide chapters14:10
sgordonprobably the core bits, choose your own adventure gets a bit hairy14:10
Loquacityannegentle: i believe that michael davies is interested on working on some tooling too, has he contacted you?14:10
annegentlesgordon: I can't recall the name now, but someone was asking me on Friday about automating install doc testing, I sent him to tripleo, but maybe it's related?14:11
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sgordonannegentle, probably related14:11
lorin1annegentle: Was there any discussion of adding SDK content into the user guide?14:11
annegentleLoquacity: hm, that may have been the name?14:11
Loquacityhe wasn't at summit14:11
Loquacityhe's on our team14:11
Loquacitysorry, by 'our' i mean RCBAU14:11
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annegentlelorin1: yes, for sure, in Everett's talk, we want to set up developer.openstack.org -- and would definitely like to help you in any efforts around the CLI14:11
annegentleLoquacity: ah okay, cool, I can find him...14:12
lorin1annegentle: Is there any writeup about that? Or should I just sync with him directly?14:12
Loquacityping me if you need me to get you in touch14:12
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Loquacityhe's mrda on irc14:12
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annegentlelorin1: yes, https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/icehouse-doc-app-devs14:13
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annegentlelorin1: we decided the developer.openstack.org should live in a separate repo14:13
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annegentlelorin1: but the python sdk guide can live in openstack-manuals since it's for users14:14
annegentlelorin1: and really only if all this sounds good to you14:14
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annegentlelorin1: Tom said he'd write a blueprint for it, but you could if you want to14:15
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annegentlewe'll keep api.openstack.org around this release14:15
lorin1annegentle: This is all fine by me. But just to clarify, does this mean python sdk guide will remain a separate doc, and not get merged into user guide?14:15
annegentlelorin1: I think it could be a series within the user guide, but may need to be separate because one reviewer, a .NET dev, said "irrelevant to me" when reading through it.14:16
nerminahi all14:16
annegentlelorin1: if I had my druthers, it'd be in the user guide, but I don't know if other sdk devs would think to go there14:16
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annegentledianefleming: what do you think about the python SDK info going in the user guide?14:17
summerlongo/ nermina14:17
annegentlehi nermina14:17
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annegentle#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Icehouse/Etherpads#Tuesday_614:17
annegentleyou can read all the etherpads at that link above14:17
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annegentleI'd like to have some sort of video/hifi meeting online to recap the summit and make sure all questions get answered.14:18
summerlongannegentle, am fine to do research on tooling, just won't be free for a few weeks.14:18
annegentleI did feel like docs was under-represented.14:18
annegentlesummerlong: oh goodie.14:18
dianeflemingi don't think python sdk guide should go into user guide14:18
annegentleYes that was another decision, to have summerlong do a research spike on automating screen captures from Horizon, the dashboard.14:18
summerlong+1 that, is a separate audience, or?14:18
dianeflemingespecially if we move cli reference to separate book14:18
annegentlesummerlong: dianefleming: yes I think it is a separate audience, that's the feedback I have from sdk devs also. I'm just lazy about the maintenance and upkeep of another book, comments, etc. :)14:19
dianeflemingthough we could introduce python in the user guide14:19
annegentleoh that reminds me, we did not get further on the ask.openstack.org integration14:19
annegentlefor API docs,14:19
annegentle#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/icehouse-api-doc-repos14:19
annegentleI really didn't get all the PTLs in one room for that one, but got good input from people there. summerlong was there too.14:19
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annegentlethere's definitely need to keep telling devs that users need user docs for API14:20
dianeflemingwhat was the consensus in that meeting?14:20
annegentlebut there was some questioning of "are we making things worse for block storage and object storage users" and since they are sometimes standalone, I get the concern... just not sure how to address it.14:20
dianeflemingi mean, what was the consensus from people14:21
dianeflemingworse by doing what?14:21
dianeflemingconsolidating API information?14:21
annegentledianefleming: questions are at the bottom of that etherpad, such as "Could you just make the dev docs "visible" from the larger document? "14:21
annegentledianefleming: yes, consolidation makes it worse for storage apparently14:21
annegentledianefleming: but, we also have input from the user committee survey that no one knows we have a load balancer API for example14:21
nerminathere is a category for devs. does the search not bring stuff like that up?14:22
annegentleso there's work to be done, consensus was, it won't hurt to have a consolidated guide, and it will point out inconsistencies across APIs, but we will need to consider individual APIs.14:22
dianeflemingi don't know what it means to make docs "visible" from larger document14:22
nerminai'm with you dianefleming14:22
annegentledianefleming: all I could think of was to make sure object storage is easy to find?14:22
dianeflemingi think the problem with object and block storage is that, their api docs aren't very good at the moment -14:23
dianeflemingnot that they aren't visible enough14:23
annegentledianefleming: they're definitely not user oriented to me14:23
dianeflemingi think going through the exercise of creating a consolidated API guide will uncover issues -14:23
summerlongdianefleming, links to the dev docs instead of including them.14:23
annegentledianefleming: and we have to keep repeating that to the devs, they aren't naturally or automatically empathetic14:23
dianeflemingalso, the exercise of getting the WADLs correct will also fix issues14:23
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annegentledianefleming: yes14:24
dianeflemingwe may determine that we need separate guides for APIs after all is said and done but I think we need to start somewhere14:24
annegentledianefleming: also coaching dev teams for a consistent way of documenting the API for users will help. There was a lot of confusion in the session.14:24
annegentledianefleming: so I think this is the right way forward14:24
annegentledianefleming: Exactly. You read my mind faster than I can type.14:24
dianefleminghmm - okay - we can talk more later14:24
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annegentleLet's see, any other reports from the Summit?14:25
nerminawere the sessions recorded, annegentle?14:25
annegentleI nearly died when a cab driver fell asleep at the wheel after the TC dinner. Ugh.14:25
annegentlenermina: no14:25
nerminawow, annegentle14:25
lorin1annegentle: OMG14:25
dianeflemingyou mean you LITERALLY almost died14:25
Loquacityheh, i heard about that14:25
Loquacityglad you're ok14:25
dianeflemingdid you see the light at the end of the tunnel?14:25
annegentledianefleming: yes. Loquacity: I was so glad mikal grabbed the wheel14:25
summerlongnermina, but the etherpad's are pretty faithful to the conversation14:25
Loquacityhe was very proud of himself ;)14:26
nerminathanks, summerlong14:26
annegentledianefleming: I kneeled on the ground when the cab finally delivered us to the hotel. Literally.14:26
annegentleLoquacity: LOL14:26
sdaguetrue story, I was there14:26
dianeflemingha ha - well, i would've fainted14:26
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annegentlenermina: yes etherpads are your best bet, and I've also been quizzing people who were in sessions, like the "Future of Design Summits" session14:26
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nerminavery good14:27
annegentleSpring is in Atlanta, Fall in Paris. One suggestion from the "future" session was to offset the design portion from the user portion by a day or two14:27
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annegentlewe'll see what changes they can make for Atlanta and Paris, Paris may be too costly to add a day14:27
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annegentle#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/IcehouseFutureDesignSummits14:27
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nermina"not only red bull, please" lol14:28
annegentlenermina: :)14:28
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nerminamoar coffee!14:29
summerlongbtw, annegentle, I thought 'meet the TC' was quite good.14:29
annegentlesummerlong: oh thanks!14:29
annegentlesummerlong: I was asked afterwards why I didn't jump on that first question about diversity on the TC (more representation from Asia was the specifics)14:29
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summerlongyes, true.14:30
annegentlesummerlong: people jumped on "get some skin in the game" which I don't really agree with, it's definitely tough to get a leg in when you're sooooo woefully underrepresented. I think we have to do even more outreach.14:30
sgordonfeels like a wider engagement issue14:30
sgordonwe obviously have very diverse contributors14:30
sgordonbut not necessarily engaged in the election process14:31
sgordonTC of all bodies in openstack should be a meritocracy14:31
annegentlesgordon: hm, good point about election turnout, what was the latest percentage?14:31
sgordonnot sure14:31
summerlongEveryone got an email, right?14:31
summerlongHow else would you push it?14:31
sgordonyeah everyone who is an ATC i think?14:31
sgordonor is it all foundation members?14:31
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nerminai think there should be more info about the nominations14:32
annegentlesgordon: ATCs for TC election14:32
annegentlenermina: yes our governance is quite complex but all on the wiki14:32
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nerminaright, we get the email about the elections but not nominations14:32
annegentlenermina: not that that makes it easy to understand, but it is learnable...14:32
annegentleOk, one more summit item to share:14:32
annegentle#link http://www.openstack.org/blog/2013/11/openstack-user-survey-statistics-november-2013/14:32
annegentleSo the user survey results came back, and finally docs weren't named the most awful thing about openstack! We're number 2! :)14:33
annegentleIt really was encouraging.14:33
lorin1#1 information source!14:33
nerminaawesome info14:33
annegentleAnd, the user committee can take questions that are specific, for example, I plan to ask if any comments specifically point to documents that are unliked.14:34
annegentlePlus we found out they don't know we have a Load Balancer API14:34
annegentleI think there are 3 "buried" APIs within neutron14:34
summerlongWill the survey be run every 6 months now?14:35
annegentlesummerlong: yes14:35
annegentleThe number of deployments nearly doubled in 6 months (84 to 165)14:36
annegentlethe majority are private cloud14:36
annegentleAnd many are in companies with less than 20 people14:36
annegentleThe data is kept private, but we can ask specific questions. If you're interested in matching up the user survey with the personas, let me or Dave Neary know.14:37
annegentle#link https://docs.google.com/document/d/16rkiXWxxgzGT47_Wc6hzIPzO2-s2JWAPEKD0gP2mt7E/edit?usp=sharing14:37
annegentle^^ that's the persona document14:37
sgordonmmmm some of those images got down converted in a way that doesnt really aid readability14:37
summerlongI thought it was perhaps my monitor at home.14:37
annegentlethere's not an exact match on survey-persona14:37
* sgordon squints at the deployment tools image14:37
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annegentleI think in the blog entry there's a link to the source?14:38
annegentle#link http://www.openstack.org/assets/Uploads/Deployments-IceHouse-v1.1.pptx14:38
sgordonyeah, a pptx that doesnt load well in libre :)14:39
annegentlesgordon: ooo14:39
annegentlesgordon: I'll make a PDF14:39
sgordonthanks :)14:39
annegentleOk, on to the install guide?14:39
sgordoni have saw most of the graphs when it was actually presented but it's useful to have the info as a reference14:39
sgordonyes :?14:39
annegentle#topic Install guide14:39
*** openstack changes topic to "Install guide (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)"14:39
annegentleI sent a ML post out saying how useful it is to have the install guide done the week of the summit.14:40
annegentleI mean, REALLY helpful.14:40
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annegentleHow is it shaping up? Andreas is at a Suse conference this week but hopefully others have a sense of it.14:40
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chandankumarannegentle, i am fixing the bugs found in the install guide.14:41
Loquacityi've noticed a couple of bugs that really are asking for high level changes, so it's probably worthwhile taking a look at the architecture of the book pretty soon14:41
sgordonthat actually reminds me i think i have some stuff i did on the plane to push14:41
annegentlechandankumar: yes, thank you14:41
annegentleLoquacity: good point. We always get input that they want a controller guide followed by a compute guide, but I don't think that's a good idea for the non-compute projects14:42
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annegentleLoquacity: for Swift we could do a proxy guide, a container guide, an object guide, etc.14:42
annegentleLoquacity: ok, good. what other overarching input do we have?14:42
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Loquacityi really want to sit down and do a proper review of the workflows in it, honestly14:43
annegentleLoquacity: that would be great14:43
Loquacityit's not entirely bad, but i think it's a bit daunting14:43
* Loquacity adds that to her list14:43
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Loquacityi've kind of been hesitating, since there seems to be rumbling about changing it14:44
summerlongbut not for icehouse.14:44
Loquacityah, good point summerlong14:44
annegentleLoquacity: right, for icehouse, we want to maintain this one14:44
annegentlethen look at tripleo possible (Tom hates that idea by the way, but sgordon and I are onboard with at least looking at it)14:45
sgordoni think it's worth considering in a J timeframe14:45
Loquacityi might take a look with an eye to no major restructuring, then14:45
annegentletom thinks manual install all the way to learn. I do agree partially with that, and that's what I understand from going to user groups, that you have to endure the pain of a manual install to learn.14:45
annegentlesgordon: yes, I agree completely14:45
Loquacityyeah, i'm coming to the same conclusion, painful as it is ;)14:45
annegentletripleo will have to be documented, not sure it has to be us, but we have to keep it in mind14:45
annegentleLoquacity: oh good :)14:46
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annegentleQuestion on install guide: shall we keep backporting another month, then let neutron have their way with ml2?14:46
dianeflemingcomment: backports are awful - we need a better way!14:47
dianeflemingI mean, doing backports is awful, not the actual content14:47
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annegentledianefleming: we should be able to automate somewhat14:48
annegentledianefleming: someone mentioned some scripts in the autodoc session14:48
dianeflemingthat would be awesome!14:48
annegentledianefleming: yeah it would be!14:48
annegentledianefleming: but it's only about another month of pain14:48
dianeflemingoh, and i enjoy pain! (not)14:49
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annegentleAlso, I'm surprised shaunm isn't patching more, anyone hear from him last week?14:50
annegentleor maybe he is and I don't see it soon enough?14:50
Loquacityhe reviewed one of mine at some point, i think14:50
Loquacityso he's alive14:50
annegentleLoquacity: ok, that's good :)14:51
annegentleOk, what's next?14:51
annegentleMeeting times!14:51
annegentle#topic Meeting times, office hours14:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Meeting times, office hours (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)"14:51
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annegentleLoquacity: if you're willing to run one at those times, it would be great!14:52
annegentleLoquacity: I can join most weeks14:52
Loquacityactually i volunteered tom to do it14:52
annegentleLoquacity: ha ha :) Did he agree?14:52
Loquacityconsidering this seems to have morphed into "lana offered" i guess not ;)14:52
Loquacitybut either way14:52
Loquacitywe can argue about it i guess14:52
summerlongIs there a reason for moving 13:00 to 14:00?14:53
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Loquacityyeah, there was a bit of confusion there for us this week14:53
annegentleLoquacity: sorry I really thought you were offering, and I'd prefer you to do it, Tom gets too "busy"14:53
Loquacityannegentle: yeah, that's cool :)14:53
Loquacityi'm on payroll now ;)14:53
annegentlesummerlong: honestly I think I screwed up due to daylight savings14:53
nerminaannegentle, now that various things have settled, perhaps we could set up another task list for the install guide. we may have some resources now to test and provide deployment info.14:54
annegentlenermina: oh that's nice14:54
annegentleLoquacity: and Thank You!14:54
annegentle#agreed alternating meeting times14:54
annegentle#action Anne Gentle to update ical feed14:55
annegentle#agreed Lana run 1st and 3rd Tuesdays, Anne run 2nd and 4th14:55
annegentle#topic Open discussion14:55
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)"14:55
annegentle#link http://aa4698cc2bf4ab7e5907-ed3df21bb39de4e57eec9a20aa0b8711.r41.cf2.rackcdn.com/Deployments-IceHouse-v1.1.pdf14:56
annegentlePDF of user survey results for Oct 201314:56
annegentle#link http://www.slideshare.net/openstack/openstack-user-survey-october-201314:56
summerlongmy eyes thank you14:57
annegentleCouple of things -- would you like a Google Hangout next week to talk about icehouse planning?14:58
annegentleAnd, should we start thinking about another docs boot camp in Feb 2014?14:58
nerminayes and yes14:58
Loquacity+1 to both14:58
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annegentleAlso, related to the operations guide, I'm thinking about a 2-day "maintenance" sprint in January, lorin1 are you up for that?14:58
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annegentle#link http://www.openstack.org/blog/2013/11/openstack-operations-guide-now-an-oreilly-early-edition/14:59
summerlongSpeaking of which, I've got RH people trying to decide on a good ops person to help.14:59
annegentlelorin1: I talked to Jon and Everett, they're up for it, need to find Joe too14:59
nerminacongrats on the o'reilly deal. that was a major feat!14:59
Loquacityawesome \o/14:59
annegentlesummerlong: that would be great. I keep telling Rackspace Private Cloud to get on it also14:59
annegentlenermina: thank you!14:59
annegentleOh yeah, I tweeted it out before going on stage for the "Meet the TC" panel, and didn't realize all the epub links were broken. Gah.15:00
annegentleFixed it right after but it took some running around. I should've tested the links better. I literally had the wrong file name in the HTML file. Sigh.15:00
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annegentleOk, outta time...15:00
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nerminait's all agile15:01
annegentleCarry on in #openstack-doc. Thanks everyone!15:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:01
lorin1annegentle: it's possible15:01
Loquacitythanks annegentle :)15:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 12 15:01:09 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:01
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annegentlelorin1: ok excellent15:01
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MikeSpreitzerUTC, not adjusted for DST16:07
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MikeSpreitzerOpenStack meetings are scheduled by UTC16:08
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openstackprimemin1sterp: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee'16:10
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primemin1sterp#startmeeting hyper-v16:10
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 12 16:10:16 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is primemin1sterp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:10
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:10
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:10
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v'16:10
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primemin1sterpnot sure if anyone is around today, I know some are still in transit from the summit16:11
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primemin1sterpclosing the meeting until next week16:11
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:12
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 12 16:12:01 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:12
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ayoungKEYSTONE!  Right?18:01
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ayoungdolphm_food, put that food away18:02
ayoungKeystoners get the munchies18:02
morganfainbergayoung, lol18:02
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ayoungdolphm_food, time change18:05
ayoungmeeting time18:05
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ayoungboden, topol bknudson18:05
morganfainbergno stevemar18:05
ayoungmorganfainberg, and Jamie is still touring in HK18:06
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morganfainbergayoung, right.18:06
ayoungmorganfainberg, and you know the QA folks are going to be in here right at 2, so no late meeting18:06
morganfainbergayoung, yep.18:07
morganfainbergayoung, but with only 3 of us, it feels kindof silly.18:07
ayoungmorganfainberg, want to pull the trigger on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/52732/18:07
ayoungwe can do a bug triage18:07
ayoungthat is never silly, and much needed18:07
morganfainbergayoung, i meant to do that last night, but i fell alseep18:07
morganfainbergayoung, fair enough bug triage works for me18:08
ayoungmorganfainberg, nah, I fixed today based on comments18:08
morganfainbergayoung, i meant review it18:08
morganfainbergmore in depth18:08
ayoungNew and undecided bugs https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.importance%3Alist=UNKNOWN&field.importance%3Alist=UNDECIDED&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.structural_subscriber=&field.tag=&field.tags_combinator=ANY&field.has_cve.used=&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.aff18:09
morganfainbergoh i did review that one fairly in depth18:09
morganfainbergwow.  yeah that one looks good. pushing make it go button18:09
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gyeeayoung, I am working on the SSL cert auth bp18:10
gyeeshould have a patch by end of this week18:10
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ayounggyee, so...that should be a fairly big change18:11
ayounggyee, instead of usering token id, you are going to build the authorization context in the middleware and consume that throughout, right?18:11
gyeeayoung, not really, just a new middleware and some changes in common/controllers18:11
ayounggyee, we want to remove all of the get_token_by_id type calls and use the context from the middleware18:12
morganfainberggyee, which one is that?18:12
gyeeayoung, yes, I'll build the auth_context in middleware18:12
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morganfainbergoh not a bug?18:12
morganfainbergi see18:12
ayounggyee, so for the case where a use submits a token (current impl) we need to do the same thing.18:12
gyeemorganfainberg, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/client-ssl-certificate-authorization18:12
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gyeeayoung, I can consolidate that code18:13
ayoungmorganfainberg, this is going to make Keystone work like a normal application, instead of having to get a token and then submit that token back to Keystone to do anything18:13
gyeebut do you want it all in a single patch?18:13
morganfainbergayoung, hehe nice.18:13
ayounggyee, I'd like to do it in two patches18:13
gyeeayoung, sure, make sense18:13
ayoungone for the clean up, and then a second for SSL18:13
morganfainberg++ on that18:14
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morganfainbergwill be easier to see the changes18:14
gyeeayoung, morganfainberg, https://review.openstack.org/5590618:15
gyeethat's for migrating password into credentials18:15
ayounggyee...that really, really really frightens me.  THe more I think about it, the more I am convinced that it is a bad idea for Keyston to allow that except in the case of the SQL ID backend18:16
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gyeewhat's the problem?18:16
ayounggyee, LDAP18:16
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ayounggyee, If I have a user in LDAP, I don't think that we are going to want to store their passwords in SQL18:17
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ayoungsame deal with Federated18:17
gyeeayoung, we don't have to18:17
gyeewe'll have to make the enforcement configurable18:17
ayoungmult password only makes sense if you are the Identity provider yourself,  hence realy only the SQL use case18:17
gyeeayoung, right, but we should be flexible enough to support both use cases18:18
ayounggyee, as such, I am thinking it should be an extension.18:18
gyeeayoung, I am fine either way as long we cover both18:18
morganfainberggyee, it would be easier to control edge cases as an extension18:19
ayounggyee, I would so much rather they just progress directly on to the X509 apporach you are going to implement any way18:19
ayoungPasswords are so second millenium18:20
morganfainbergedge cases e.g. ldap, federation, etc18:20
gyeemorganfainberg, sure, I am fine with it as an extension and disable by default18:20
morganfainberggyee, ok18:20
gyeeayoung, +++++ for PKI18:20
gyeebut we have to get there first18:20
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gyeeI would be the first one to push for killing passwords once we have a mature PKI in OpenStack18:21
ayounggyee, so lets focus on getting there18:21
ayounggyee, you can always do what they are suggesting using an external Basic-Auth provider18:21
ayoungthe only thing we don't provide is a way to map REMOTE_USER to something other than the userid field18:22
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gyeeayoung, not sure how basic-auth would solve this problem18:24
morganfainberggyee, external user password support18:25
ayounggyee, if they used basic_auth, they would get REMOTE_USER set.  THen you could have REMOTE_USER set via mod_auth sql18:25
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ayoungIt would have the same effect, but it would effectively externaize the problem, making both your team and me happy.  Mostly me.18:25
morganfainberggyee, what ayoung just said.  not bound by the password in keystone that way, mod_auth is the holder of all things password.18:25
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ayounggyee, then, if you want to link  up mod_auth_sql to the Credentials table, you should have a workable Admin API as well.18:28
topolOh crap!!!18:28
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ayoungtopol, you are not the only one that messed up the time change18:28
dstaneksorry guys i forgot to account for DST18:29
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topolthis started 30 minutes ago didnt it?18:29
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ayoungtopol, just the 3 of us assigning all open bugs to you18:29
topolis dolph here?18:29
morganfainbergtopol, nope.18:29
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ayoungtopol, so..I think what gyee and I were discussing involves you based on your interest in policy18:30
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ayounghere's the scoop18:30
ayoungwe want to make the Keystone server expand the creds given in to authZ data in middleware18:30
ayoungthat way, regardless of token or, say Client Cert auth, we can apply the same policy to it18:31
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ayoungthe first step is a patch I just submitted18:31
topolperfect Ill take a look18:32
ayoungwith that the auth pipeline can do more18:32
gyeeayoung, morganfainberg, are we saying we want to make all auths external?18:32
ayoungtopol, understand the context first:  I think it means that we need to take what happens in the auth/controller/authenticate function and do it in middleware18:33
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topolwhy the need to move the function?18:33
morganfainberggyee, it would solve the problem you're trying to solve.  it's not a requirement though18:33
gyeeand manage the users externally?18:33
ayoungif a user passes in a token, we do the same thing:  expand it out to the set of roles etc18:33
gyeemorganfainberg, not sure if that's a realistic expectation at this point18:34
morganfainberggyee, thats why either that or as an extension really are the options18:34
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ayounggyee, so not manage the users externally, but rather the authentication mechanism would be step one (external, set REMOTE_USER) and then step 2 would be expand out to the authorization context18:35
morganfainberggyee, the external auth route requires no extra keystone code.  it's already there.  REMOTE_USER just does the password auth step for you18:35
morganfainbergin the external model.18:35
ayoungthen, by the time the user requested a token, we would bascially have all of the data to do that.  Just that admin operations in Keystone would be based on an unscoped token...or potentially one ijplicitly scoped to the default domain?18:36
ayoungCurrenlt,y unscoped has no roles on it, and that is a problem18:36
morganfainberggyee, but an extension for that would also work if that really is the path of least resistance18:36
morganfainberg(multi password that is)18:36
ayoungIf a user authenticates with Kerberos or Client Cert, you will have the same issue:  how to get past the policy check18:36
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gyeeayoung, as Mark mentioned, its getting the freaking cert or setting up Kerberos that is problematic today18:37
ayounggyee, same issue with Basic- Auth, though18:37
gyeewe have use cases all over the place today18:38
morganfainberggyee, i think the general consensus is REMOTE_USER and external is better, but extension is also acceptable.  care to disagree ayoung?18:38
ayounggyee, so lets focus on your X509 use case first18:38
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ayoungI think the multi-password thing will be covered if we do it right18:39
gyeeayoung, I don't think its a realistic expectation right now, long term yes18:39
gyeeI would love x.509 long term18:39
ayoungfor X509, either the user submits a project or domain, or they get an unscoped token18:39
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gyeebut I have to solve the use cases for now18:40
ayoungwe can do project/domain in a cookie or external header18:40
ayoungor we can do the "default project" thing that Keystone does now18:40
gyeemorganfainberg, we have real customers asking for this solution right now18:41
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gyeegetting PKI up and running is not realistic for them right now18:41
topolgyee what is your use case?18:41
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morganfainberggyee, right.  hence why i don't see an extension as being a bad approach.  it hits the "right now" case since X509 (as you claim) isn't realistic right now18:41
gyeetopol, use multi-passwords18:41
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topoloh, Marcs stuff correct?18:42
morganfainbergtopol, yes18:42
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gyeemorganfainberg, I'd say extension now, and push for x.509 long term18:42
morganfainberggyee, i am fine with that approach18:42
topol+1 on an extension. Im pretty sure we will need that as well18:42
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gyeefor x.509 to work, we'll need 1) CA with Barbican, and 2) get the revocation stuff iron out18:43
gyeeI'll try to help with both18:43
henrynash(henry joined…..sorry, first time back in UK since time zone change and messed up)18:43
gyeelove to have a CA service in OpenStack18:44
morganfainbergayoung, ok another topic.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1247703 this is an issue that RHEL has an old memcache library18:44
topolall of us were on time, henrynash :-)18:44
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ayoungmorganfainberg, we can get it updated in RDO if needs be18:44
* topol on the internet nobody knows when you show up 30 minutes late if they show up 45 minutes late18:44
morganfainbergayoung, good18:44
ayoungmorganfainberg, I think that is covered already18:45
morganfainbergayoung, if i can open bugs / help drive please let me know.18:45
ayounglet me look in RH Bugzilla18:45
morganfainbergayoung, it's affecting havana release18:45
morganfainbergthe minimum version should be 1.4818:45
ayoungmorganfainberg, Use the EPEL version18:45
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ayoungRHOS will use that as well18:45
morganfainbergok. i'll comment on the bug then.18:45
ayoungRHOS Havana is not out yet18:45
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morganfainbergayoung, ok18:46
morganfainbergayoung, i'll also get a global requirements patch submitted back to stable/havana for memcache>=1.4818:46
ayoungSo you'll end up replaceing the version of several RHEL libraries with the EPEL versions until then18:46
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morganfainbergjust to keep the loop closed for testing etc18:46
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henrynashquestion: did anyone see any sessions about ditching pagination and/or filtering?18:48
gyeehenrynash, that session was cancelled18:48
henrynashdolphm had said there would topics on that (Horizon?) but I never saw any18:48
ayoungmorganfainberg, can you see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=98642318:49
topolso instead of ditching pagination we ditched the session?18:49
morganfainbergayoung, yes18:49
gyeetopol, the person proposed the session wasn't there I think18:49
henrynashok, I'll put that on next weeks agenda…do we go forward with our filtering/limit changes….18:49
gyeeI think some users would still want pagination18:50
gyeejust not sure if we can support it across the board18:50
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morganfainbergayoung, i'll put a link into the bug to that bz ticket18:51
henrynashgyee: agreed…I think I had them as separate patches anyway18:51
ayounghenrynash, I think so.  I would like the rule of thumb to be "you have to know what you want" and make it such that no results get returned without an expliocit filter...I realize that is too draconian for backwards compat, though.   Lets keep it as a design goal.18:51
ayoungmorganfainberg, let me18:51
morganfainbergayoung ok18:51
ayoungmorganfainberg, do you have the Laucnpad ID for the bug?18:52
morganfainbergayoung, https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/124770318:52
topolayoung, I thought we talked about  if results came back were less than some constant (say 100) then you didnt need a filter18:53
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topolfor small test environemnts18:53
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bknudsonwhat if it takes 10 hours to figure out how many are to be returned?18:53
bknudsonis this about bandwidth or cpu?18:54
topolbknudson, good point18:54
ayoungmorganfainberg, if you refresh BZ, you will see that there is now an "external tracker" link18:54
morganfainbergayoung, nice18:54
ayoungtopol, yeah, I think for short lists that makes sense, but for long lists, always showing the first 100 is dumb.18:55
ayoungThe rule should be "show the user what they most commonly want to see"18:55
topollong lists would return "Too many results to display, please refine your search"18:55
henrynashayoung: for long lists, the only point of a limit is so that a cloud provider can stop siome dumb query cheqingup lots of resource18:55
gyeetopol, ++18:55
gyeeusability 10118:55
topolOur internal employee LDAP behaves that way18:55
gyeetopol, can't say the same for our internal LDAP :(18:56
ayoungmorganfainberg, feel free to link any RPM based issues from Upstream to Bz, and tag me on them.  I'm going to  be doing aa Triage later on today doing just that, trying to figure out what we need to address for RDO etc18:56
topolgyee has LDAP envy...18:56
morganfainbergayoung, sounds good.  i think that is hte only one i've seen18:56
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morganfainbergayoung, quick searches aren't showing new-ish python-memcache for EPEL either.18:57
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morganfainbergayoung, i might be looking in thr wrong place though18:57
ayounghenrynash, that is my point, if you don't know what you want, we should provide a some guidance, but not blindly return a random list.  If we were talking REST, I would almost say the /users should never return a list, and if you want an explicit list, you would first create a search object ( a new named URL)18:57
ayoungmorganfainberg, hmmm,  apevec was going to push it through.18:58
ayoungOK, 2 minutes before QA invades.  Anyone have any last things.?18:58
morganfainbergayoung, http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/epel/6/x86_64/repoview/letter_p.group.html not seeing a package in there.18:58
gyeeayoung, there's a famous LDAP error, refuse to perform18:59
topolgyee, so many jokes... so little time :)18:59
ayoungbknudson, OK,  I'll look18:59
bknudsonthen can do https://review.openstack.org/#/c/49190/19:00
henrynashit's pumpkin time....19:00
dstaneki'd love some input on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-test-restructuring19:00
bknudsonalthough I didn't look closely at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/49190/... it's an automatic one.19:00
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topolshould we stick around for when dolphm shows up?19:00
bknudsonthis meeting was cancelled by the way19:01
dstanekwhen Jamie is back is want to see if we can work together on the existing testing blueprint19:01
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henrynashbknudson: indeed it was19:01
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fungidid the keystone meeting end? (doesn't look like anyone officially started it through the bot)19:01
ayoungbknudson, might have been jumping the gun, but I just approved that.19:01
morganfainbergfungi we didn't oops19:01
ayoungfungi, nope, as it was just a bunch of us kibbitzing19:01
morganfainbergkeystone -> #openstack-dev :)19:01
fungiokay, just checking--infra was supposed to start about 2min ago19:01
ayoungfungi, yep19:01
topolproductive meeting though19:01
lbragstaddid the keystone meeting changes times officially or is it just this once?19:02
ayounglbragstad, Keystone stays constant19:02
morganfainberglbragstad, meetings are UTC ;)19:02
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ayoungit was the US that chagned19:02
lbragstadahh right19:02
topolUnless you live in Arizona19:02
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fungiinfra team powers ACTIVATE (form of... a meeting!)19:02
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pabelangerwell hello there19:03
clarkbhi there19:03
fungimordred around?19:03
openstackfungi: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee'19:03
fungi#startmeeting infra19:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 12 19:03:52 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:03
clarkb#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting19:04
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fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-10-29-19.03.html19:04
fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:04
fungi#action jeblair move tarballs.o.o and include 50gb space for heat/trove images19:05
fungiclarkb: decommission old etherpad server eventually (after the summit)19:05
fungiadd to the to do pile i guess19:05
fungicarry forward?19:05
clarkbyup, I hadn't planned on getting to that today, but do plan on doing it this week19:05
* ttx lurks19:05
clarkbso by the time of next meeting that should be done19:05
fungi#action clarkb decommission old etherpad server eventually (after the summit)19:05
fungi#topic Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap)19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:06
fungistatus changes there we should be aware of?19:06
mordredfungi: last words on this were at the summit, which I missed (damn press briefings)19:06
ttxclarkb: btw we got the go-ahead to EOL folsom19:06
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fungii'll tack that onto the agenda19:07
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fungianyone have a tl;dr redux of the summit session for trove testing? i think i was in a different session as well19:07
clarkbttx: great19:07
clarkbI was in a different session too19:08
clarkbhub_cap: ^19:08
mordredfungi: jeblair said there was nothing new or earthshattering19:08
pleia2^^ snapshot of notes from etherpad19:08
ttxhub_cap is not around, losing big in Vegas19:08
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fungiif you're gonna lose, lose big19:08
pleia2but yeah, nothing crazy, publish images to tarballs.o.o and go from there19:09
fungiokay cool19:09
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fungimoving along then...19:09
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fungi#topic Tripleo testing (lifeless, pleia2)19:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Tripleo testing (lifeless, pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:09
fungii KNOW there was a lot discussed for this19:09
pleia2lots of chats about this at the summit, I'm now kanbaning it with dprince and derekh19:09
pleia2(derekh made a trello board for it this morning)19:10
fungiyou just gerunded a borrowed word ;)19:10
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fungisorry, grammar thread on the ml has gotten to me19:10
dprincepleia2: we are looking for you to fill in some of the gaps on the board while we get ramped up19:10
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mordredthat's twice today trello has been brought up in an infra context19:11
pleia2dprince: great, will do19:11
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dprincepleia2: anything derek and I can work on in parallel, etc19:11
pleia2mordred: tripleo bleeding over in this case :)19:11
* mordred imagines somewhere in china, jeblair felt a sharp pain19:11
lifelesspleia2: huh, a new board; thats interesting! I will watch with interest [risk of fragmenting attention]19:11
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mordredfungi: big ticket item I believe is lifeless success, or seeming success, in getting a bazillion companies to donate racks of gear to his cloud19:12
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lifelessmordred: our cloud19:12
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* dprince suspicious about strings being attached to free cloud hardware19:12
ttxmordred: summit week seem to be big in pretending to donate stuff or people to various causes19:12
pleia2lifeless: heh, I woke up to it :) but not a terrible idea at the moment19:12
pleia2lifeless: I hear you mentioned some heat stuff at summit, so it would be nice to have a chat with you, dprince and derekh tomorrow or so to make sure we're still on track19:13
* mordred has faith in lifeless and his ability to beat them in to submission19:13
ttxmordred: the natural pessimistic in me would suggest to wait until reality strikes19:13
lifelesspleia2: heat cluster to define the set of deployed emulated bm test environments.19:14
lifelesspleia2: just detail really19:14
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pleia2lifeless: oh ok, this just relies on something heat can already do, yeah?19:14
lifelesspleia2: totally, it's just a template saying we want 10 such machines19:15
lifelessrather than spin 10 up by hand19:15
dprincelifeless: I'm confused. I thought the TE Builder just lived on an undercloud machine somewhere?19:15
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pleia2dprince: maybe move this bit over to the tripleo meeting in -alt? (I think we can move on from -infra topic)19:17
lifelessdprince: yes, you're confused. lets sync when I'm not running a meeting opposite this :) - right after perhaps?19:17
fungiso anyway, we should probably stick to status updates here and hash out tripleo details elsewhere for sake of time19:17
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pleia2fungi: yep, let's move on19:18
fungi#topic Wsme / pecan testing (sdague, dhellman)19:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Wsme / pecan testing (sdague, dhellman) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:18
clarkbI volunteered to help with this in a summit session19:18
fungiwhere is it stuck for the moment?19:19
clarkbonce we clean up folsom and add havana jobs I am going to take a good look at the existing tempest/devstack jobs and take a stab at retemplating them to removing a bunch of the common noise19:19
clarkbthat should make it easy to add tempest jobs for WSME/pecan that aren't the same as the existing jobs to prevent mutual gating19:19
fungiahh, right, being able to get branch selection working for those19:20
clarkbthe big problem right now is we need new jobs to prevent nova being gated on WSME/pecan19:20
clarkbthat should happen as a side effect of refactoring the job templates19:20
fungiso that we test released wsme/pecan on nova changes, but branch tip wsme/pecan on their own changes19:21
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fungiany other tidbits of note?19:21
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clarkbI have some ideas of what the refactor may look like but I think I need to wait for the cleaned up jobs before taking these ideas seriously19:22
clarkbso I won't bore you with them now19:22
fungi#topic New etherpad.o.o server and migration (clarkb)19:22
*** openstack changes topic to "New etherpad.o.o server and migration (clarkb) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:22
fungibest summit etherpad experience yet19:22
fungikudos, clarkb!19:22
clarkbit didn't completely fall over!19:22
clarkbthe RTT between HKG and DFW was painful19:23
pleia2it was great :)19:23
clarkbbut other than that the server seemed to be fine19:23
clarkbthe remaining work here is to get rid of the old server now that we have a backlog of backups on the new server19:23
sdaguepleia2's graphs of tcp connects were awesome :)19:23
clarkbI plan to do that this week19:23
fungiand we've already got the related action item carried forward for that19:23
pleia2hooray for cacti19:23
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fungianything else there before we move along?19:24
pleia2(I included a capture from cacti in blog post + twitter)19:24
clarkbfungi: nothing else from me19:24
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fungipleia2: got a link?19:24
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* fungi likes reading infra-centric blog entries19:24
pleia2fungi: end of the post http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=864419:25
fungi#link http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=864419:25
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fungiwowie. nice!19:26
pleia2(there are 4 posts, that's the one with etherpad)19:26
fungi#topic Retiring https://github.com/openstack-ci19:26
*** openstack changes topic to "Retiring https://github.com/openstack-ci (Meeting topic: infra)"19:26
fungiis this a stale agenda item, or do we need to discuss further?19:26
pleia2oh, I forgot to talk about this with jeblair19:26
pleia2push to next meeting19:27
fungii guess we can leave it on the agenda and bring him in on the discussion next week19:27
clarkbya I think we need jeblair's opinion19:27
fungi#topic Savanna testing19:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Savanna testing (Meeting topic: infra)"19:27
mordredsergey doesn't seem to be here19:28
fungido we have savanna people in here who wanted to discuss testing?19:28
fungiyeah, not finding him19:28
fungigoing once19:28
fungi#topic Goodbye Folsom (ttx, clarkb, fungi)19:28
*** openstack changes topic to "Goodbye Folsom (ttx, clarkb, fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:28
* mordred is excited19:28
fungiso i think the order should be: 1. abandon all open folsom changes, 2. tag current branch tip, 3. remove jobs, 4. delete branches19:29
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fungithat sound sane?19:29
clarkbfungi: yes sounds good19:29
clarkband a follow up to that is to add havana jobs19:29
fungiright, i'm fine doing those in the same change if we want, though maybe a pair of changes would be better for atomicity19:30
clarkbpair of chnages would be good19:30
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anteayapair of changes19:30
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fungittx: any input on the folsom eol plan above?19:32
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mordredfungi: I think there is a race19:33
mordredI think you want to remove the jobs first19:33
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ttxfungi: nope sounds good, looks close enought to waht was done for previous EOLs19:33
mordredthat prevents movement19:33
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mordredthen tag branch tip19:33
fungiokay, works for me19:34
mordredthen delete branches, and I don't think you need to abandon the changes19:34
fungiso... 1. remove jobs, 2. abandon all open folsom changes, 3. tag current branch tip, 4. delete branches19:34
fungileave changes open?19:35
mordredwhy not?19:35
mordredI don't think they'll show once the branch goes away19:35
fungithey show up in the all open changes list, but that's the only reason i have19:35
fungioh, maybe19:35
mordredoh. well, if they do, then we should abandon them19:35
clarkbit gives closure to the changes in a concrete way, I am on board with deleting them19:36
clarkber abandoning them19:36
mordredI'm ok with it19:36
mordredthere are 5 of them after al19:36
mordredand two of them are fungi's19:36
fungiyeah, i'm a problem, i know ;)19:36
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fungiokay, well we'll try to knock that out this week, so...19:37
fungi#action ttx, clarkb, fungi EOL Folsom branches19:37
fungiother concerns/ideas?19:38
clarkbwe should send an announcement to the lsits19:38
fungithat ^19:39
clarkbor is it better to be quiet aobut these things? I don't remember if we anounced it in a wide manner last time19:39
fungilet's consider that step #519:39
clarkbttx: ^ is that something you want to do?19:39
ttxclarkb: only if I'm needed to make it happen19:39
ttxoh, misreading19:40
clarkbttx: fungi and I can do that actual work, curious if you want it to be announced19:40
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ttxI think we should do whatever was done for essex/diablo... if we did nothing then, I suggest we do nothing now19:40
fungiright. main reasons i have ttx in there are in case he wants to sign tags and send an announcement, as release manager19:40
fungithough if apevec or adam_g are a better fit for that, covering stable release management, that's cool too19:41
clarkba quick grep through mail doesn't show any announcements for diablo and essex19:42
fungii'll dredge the likely ml archives from the time period of the eol tags19:42
fungioh, clarkb just did19:42
ttxfungi: how about a,nnouncig it on openstack-stable-maint to make sure apevec and adam_g know about it19:42
clarkbwell I did a 'EOL essex' search19:42
clarkbttx: ++19:42
fungittx: sounds good. i'll do that19:42
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fungi#topic Open discussion19:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:44
fungi15 minutes left. anybody have anything exciting they want to talk about?19:44
fungior complain about? ;)19:45
pleia2I need a nap :)19:45
anteayame too19:45
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UtahDavefungi: Is there anything I can help with to finish up the jenkins Salt stuff?19:45
clarkbpleia2: yesterday actually wasn't too bad. today is worse. I am bad at this jetlag thing19:45
pabelangerSo, if there is time, I wanted to talk about importing packaging into -infra.  There was a topic on the mailing list about it19:46
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fungiUtahDave: yeah, you had said something about getting me some pointers to the right docs for setting up cascading task dependencies with reacrots19:46
fungier, reactors19:46
fungipabelanger: there is time19:46
UtahDavefungi: Yeah, I can get you some info on that.  Is that what you want to start with?19:47
clarkbpabelanger: it looked like consensus was to put the package repos in openstack-infra. I like them living there. I think we should have an openstack-infra-packagers group that get +2/+A on those repos19:47
clarkbpabelanger: have you added new projects to our systems yet? the best documentation for it is the stackforge documentation but you essentially s/stackforge/openstack-infra/ and it should work19:48
fungiUtahDave: i think that's my next item (checking the etherpad for that)19:48
clarkbpabelanger: http://ci.openstack.org/stackforge.html19:48
clarkb(I think you are relatively familiar with the process though)19:48
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UtahDaveok, fungi. I'll get that for you later today.19:48
pabelangerclarkb, Right, so I guess the issue was just naming the repos and stuff. Based on what people think is good, I can do the leg with to get it imported.19:49
clarkbI would just propose a change that adds the things, make sure that the source repos are ready to be sucked into gerrit (remove unneeded branches and so on) then we can approve and we are off to the races19:49
fungiUtahDave: yep, that's the next item i had on the plan...19:49
pabelangerThen we can have some discussions about building out the repo infra for APT and RPM19:49
clarkbpabelanger: ah naming stuff19:49
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/salt-slavery-and-puppetry19:49
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pabelangerFor example, I have zuul-deb in my personal repos on github, so not sure if we want something like zuul-packaging19:50
clarkbpabelanger: I am not super familiar with this stuff. would we need different package repos for apt and rpm or is the resulting artifact independent of source?19:50
fungiclarkb: we can probably get by with one repo tracking multiple distros/releases, but now sure whether subdirectories or branches are a better fit19:51
pabelangerclarkb, well, I could see 1 repo, but different branches (deb and rpm).  But honestly, I think it comes down to what people prefer19:51
clarkbpabelanger: fungi: gotcha19:51
clarkbI am happy with zuul-packaging in that case19:51
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fungipabelanger: i suspect a branch for "rpm" wouldn't work well to suit, say, sles and fedora both. likely it would need to be per distro+release19:52
pabelangerfungi, agreed19:52
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fungiand, for that matter, you may want to even track something like ubuntu precise and trusty separately19:52
fungior debian wheezy and jessie19:53
fungiet cetera19:53
pabelangerso, in general I think people are onboard with the idea19:53
fungiso i think the big remaining question is whether branches or directories work better for this purpose19:53
clarkbI am comfortable with git so branches :)19:54
fungii'm leaning toward branches19:54
pabelangerI too like branches19:54
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fungiand it may make use of things like debian's git-buildpackage a little smoother (or it might get in the way even worse--we should obviously choose our branch names carefully so as to avoid that possibility)19:55
clarkbprobably worth setting up a minimal set of branches that work before we import into gerrit19:55
clarkbeasier to sort this stuff out before we add gerrit to the mix19:56
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pabelangerfungi, Ya, the zuul packaging for debian is already setup to use git-buildpackage19:56
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fungiwe should also have a small master branch with global documentation about the repo and how/why it's organized that way19:57
fungibecause people will be confused when there's no master branch19:58
clarkbdoing that makes the default branch non specific so no distro favoritism :)19:58
fungimight be able to include workflow suggestions/links in there as well19:58
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pabelangerokay, I can get started with something and get some feedback from you guys in -infra19:59
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fungiand that's just about it for time19:59
fungiso until next time...19:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 12 20:00:00 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-11-12-19.03.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-11-12-19.03.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-11-12-19.03.log.html20:00
ttxWho is around for the TC meeting ?20:00
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mikalttx: hi20:00
ttxmarkmc, annegentle, jgriffith, vishy, markmcclain, jeblair, lifeless, sdague: around ?20:00
ttx(I suspect jeblair won't be)20:00
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lifelessttx: yes20:01
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 12 20:01:40 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
ttxWelcome to the first meeting of the Icehouse TC session20:01
ttxOur agenda for today:20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee20:02
ttx#topic Manila incubation request: initial discussion20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Manila incubation request: initial discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-October/016370.html20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Manila_Overview20:02
ttxIncubation requests are typically covered over two consecutive meetings.20:02
ttxThe first week is an initial discussion so that the main issues can emerge20:02
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ttxand at the second one we usually conclude that discussion and start voting20:03
ttxDo we have anyone from Manila attending the meeting ?20:03
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dhellmanndid they know to attend?20:04
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jgriffithdhellmann: probably not :(20:04
ttxI talked to Ben last week, so yes20:04
markmcin fairness, it might have been hard for them to know it was this week20:04
markmcoh, ok20:04
* markmc takes that back:)20:04
dhellmannyeah, I made the same assumption as markmc20:04
jgriffithbswartz hasn't been around yet this week20:04
jgriffithnor navneet20:04
dhellmannshall we table this until next week?20:04
ttxtold me last week they would show up in force20:05
sdagueso one of the things that came up in the devstack session at summit was given that devstack and devstack gate both have hooks now, stackforge jobs running that demonstrate the use of that would be really good before incubation20:05
* dhellmann wonders if this is a timezone issue20:05
sdagueright, there were also time changes since the last meeting20:05
ttxI don't think their absence prevents us from discussing it... Just prevents them from giving early answers20:05
jgriffithttx: agreed20:05
mordredwell, I agree with what sdague said20:05
markmcttx, what's the closest thing we have to a checklist for incubation/integration applications?20:05
mordredI think it is not unreasonable to ask for stackforge jobs that run d-g on their code20:06
russellbfor incubation or graduation?20:06
sdaguefor incubation20:06
russellbi know that's what you said, i'm asking if that's really what we want20:06
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dhellmannI like it, but it seems like moving the bar a lot higher20:07
ttxmarkmc: good question -- that would be considering scope, maturity and team diversity20:07
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markmcsome history on manila: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-February/005955.html20:07
ttxbased on previous meetings20:07
russellbit's a much higher bar than we've asked for in the past20:07
markmci.e. when they proposed it as a set of new APIs in cinder20:07
ttxI had 3 questions20:07
mikalI'm a bit confused by the list of future developers on their wiki page20:07
markmcclainyeah it is a higher bar… seems more like a grad req20:07
sdaguerussellb: agreed, but as we add complexity, the fact that we currently have a bunch of integrated projects that aren't in our integrated gate, is a real problem20:07
russellbso require before graduation20:07
mordredit's a higher bar20:08
russellbwe haven't even required *that* in the past20:08
mordredI say before incubation20:08
mordredbecause guess what - I'm pretty sure it was a mistake in the past to not require it20:08
russellbagree for graduation20:08
sdagueyeh, I'm with mordred on this20:08
* markmc takes some notes for them here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ManilaIncubationApplication20:08
mordredand we shouldn't keep not requiring it just because we didn't in the past20:08
mordredthis isn't a fraternity20:08
jgriffithmordred: i think I'd agree, at least some basic level20:08
mordredI mean, I'm not talking insane levels20:08
mordredbut we DO have hook points now20:09
dhellmannI'm not arguing against the idea, but I do want to point out that one of the things we said about pre-incubated projects was that they could only expect a certain amount of help from teams like docs, infra, and qa -- are we changing that to support this new requirement?20:09
sdaguein my ideal world, because of the d-g and devstack plugins, building a stackforge d-g job should be a couple days work by the team20:09
sdagueit demonstrates they can run in the gate20:09
mordredthe trove team, when they were reddwarf, seemed to figure out how to do it20:09
dhellmannor do we think the task is easy enough now to not need a lot of help?20:09
ttxI think dhellmann is spot on20:09
dhellmannif we think we've made it easy enough, I'm all for it20:09
mordredand then we rejected the patch becauase there weren't enough hook points yet20:09
sdagueonce incubated, they can land tempest tests (as we won't take them from non incubated)20:09
mordredit's easy - and there are existing examples that can be cargo culted20:09
sdagueand no one graduations until they actually are integrated in the gate, so we know that all of openstack works together20:10
mordredsdague: ++20:10
lifelesssdague: interesting; that speaks to the federated set of tests stuff I was raising with you20:10
ttxdhellmann: that said, stackforge projects already kind of interact with infra20:10
jgriffithso can we make sure there are no objections to the project itself first?20:10
jgriffithie the intent and direction?20:10
lifelesssdague: that might be a case where it's valuable - add local tempest tests pre incubation, move to tempest during incubation period20:10
ttxsdague/mordred: could we discuss additional requirements for incubation after we discuss the specifics of Manila ?20:10
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sdaguettx: sure :)20:11
* sdague tables20:11
dhellmannttx: true20:11
ttxTheir application mentions that "shared filesystems provide valuable features that cannot be obtained from either blocks storage or object storage"...20:11
ttxBut since then, Cinder grew some features around shared volumes / public volumes. Do shared filesystems still provide valuable additional features ?20:11
ttxI guess jgriffith could answer that one20:11
lifelessso a shared block device is only suitable for use by some cluster file systems20:11
ttx(that would be my first question)20:11
jgriffithThe win would be specific api's and attach management20:12
jgriffithmuch of what's in Cinder now is hacky IMO20:12
mordredI think shared filesystems are super useful, and a different thing20:12
sdaguewhat filesystems are currently supported?20:12
jgriffithThe shares code is constantly a "special" case20:12
markmcmordred, agree20:12
lifelessso on a technical basis, e.g. shared ext4 isn't a thing.20:12
lifelessNFS and SMB are20:12
zanebsdague, dhellmann: just FYI, the verb 'to table' has opposite meanings in English and American ;)20:12
jgriffithlifeless: correct20:12
ttxThey mention NFS and CIFS in their application20:12
lifelessthe other thing is that things like netapp filers20:12
ttxOK, that answers my question I guess20:13
mordred"The initial implementation of Manila was a proof of concept that shared filesystem management can fit into the same architecture as Cinder."20:13
lifelessaren't achievable by just taking nova bm and deploying a cluster; thats vendor specific capabilities.20:13
dhellmannzaneb: "lay on the table" -- http://www.robertsrules.org/20:13
lifelessso again, I don't see that as fitting cinder at all20:13
ttxMy question 2 is about doing this as a separate project from Cinder20:13
mordred"During Icehouse, our main goals are to define and implement these new APIs as well as..."20:13
jgriffithlifeless: no, that wasn't "good enough"20:13
ttxThe original proposal was to make it a Cinder thing but that was shot down in various reviews and threads20:13
mordredthose two sentences make me think that as much I as think Manila is a GREAT idea, it may still be young20:13
jgriffithlifeless: the goal is truly nfs/cifs as a service and all the fun that goes with it20:13
sdagueso in tree they only have lvm and netapp from what I can see20:14
ttxSo I suspect the answer to my question all boils down to how much code is actually borrowed from Cinder in Manila implementation20:14
lifelessjgriffith: I'm speaking in favour of manilla20:14
lifelessjgriffith: I'm confused by your 09:13 < jgriffith> lifeless: no, that wasn't "good enough"20:14
ttxIf it's just the scheduler, I guess that would not be the first copy. If the volume code is duplicated, however...20:14
ttxjgriffith/markmc: you looked at the code at some point, could you answer that question ?20:14
jgriffithlifeless: sorry... saw missed the "aren't" :)20:14
russellbsdague: lvm.py includes NFS and CIFS20:14
lifelesswouldn't manila layer on cinder if block storage maniuplation is needed?20:15
sdaguerussellb: oh, ok, just funny naming :)20:15
lifelesse.g. bring up a scalable set of instances with cinder volumes for backing and run samba on that?20:15
markmcttx, there's plenty of code shared, just like cinder shares plenty of code with nova20:15
jgriffiththe volume code for cifs/nfs in Cinder is unique and there are a number of semantics features that they want that cinder rejected20:15
markmcttx, the point about it is that volumes and filesystem shares are different things that will need to evolve differently20:15
ttxjgriffith: so one cannot be build on the other, right ?20:16
jgriffithlifeless: quite frankly that was my first answer in SanDiego20:16
jgriffithttx: well, that's what they wanted to do but I was opposed20:16
lifelessjgriffith: I mean, netapp as a different backend would obviously be different, I'm referring to what the reference free backend might do.20:16
mordredseems like a think that could be hacked up in trove in like 3 days20:16
jgriffithlifeless: understood20:16
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mordredsamba aaS :)20:17
sdagueI think it's fair that you might have existing shared filesystem infrastructure in your environment that you'd want to reuse20:17
jgriffithttx: the last suggestion I had to them was a separate service in Cinder20:17
mordredsdague: ++20:17
jgriffithttx: so it would share DB, scheduler etc etc20:17
lifelessso - I think manilla as a separate thing is different enough to warrant a new service, but I am strongly opposed to it doing it's own block device stuff - they need to layer on cinder.20:17
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jgriffithlifeless: agreed!20:17
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zanebmarkmc: it appears to be effectively a fork of Cinder (like early RedDwarf was of Nova)20:17
jgriffithlifeless: sorry... didn't realize that's what you were getting at20:17
ttxlifeless: does it do its own block device stuff ?20:17
sdagueI remember the wikimedia folks had patches to do something like this against nova back in SF or SD, do we have any idea if they were engaged as part of this?20:18
dhellmannlifeless:  don't see any mention of it doing its own block device manipulation; am I missing something?20:18
lifelesssharing a scheduler is something we should do across all projects asap :)20:18
russellblifeless: +120:18
lifelessttx: I may be confused20:18
vishyjgriffith: separate service == separate top level api and keystone entry?20:19
jgriffithvishy: correct20:19
markmcttx, yes, it does20:19
sdaguelifeless: sure, but that's a whole other bag of worms :)20:19
markmcttx, e.g. a driver for interactive with lvm VGs20:19
jgriffithvishy: the API was the place I had issues with first time around20:19
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vishyjgriffith: I actually like that idea20:19
jgriffithvishy: sharing the API?20:19
vishyjust because I have trouble seeing both cinder/manila keeping enough developers to stay healthy20:19
jgriffithvishy: agreed on that20:20
russellbseparate API, but a part of cinder?20:20
vishyor perhaps it could be a separate repo under the cinder program?20:20
jgriffithvishy: but to clarify, which idea did you like?20:20
vishyrussellb: similar to how nova-volume was initially20:20
* jgriffith gets ready to run20:20
jgriffithvishy: ok, we're on the same page I think20:20
vishythe api ran as a separate endpoint in the nova-api worker20:20
vishyor you could run it as nova-api-os-volume20:20
vishyif you were crazy20:20
jgriffithYes, Ben and I worked on an implementation of that20:20
jgriffithit got held up in review and then they decided to do Manilla20:21
jgriffithI wouldn't object to revisting that20:21
vishyit seems like a reasonable approach20:21
ttxOK, that brings us to my last question... which is about the maturity of that code20:21
vishywe really should try to curb the project explosion somehow20:21
markmcjgriffith, to be fair, we gave them the feedback that they should do it as a separate service20:21
ttxIMHO incubation is about integrating into the rest of OpenStack, not really about maturing the software itself and finding how it fits20:21
jgriffithmarkmc: I did, that's very true20:21
markmcif lifeless's approach is taken, it even more makes sense as a separate project20:21
ttxTherefore I'm a bit concerned to see only 98 commits and 6 contributors (2 of which being infra/oslo guys pushing packaging cleanups)20:21
jgriffithmarkmc: however it was partially based on the claims around "the huge community interest"20:21
sdaguettx: and the last commit being a month ago20:22
jgriffithttx: and it's stalled a bit20:22
ttxSo I wonder if that should not go in the "promising but still needing community development" bucket, like Designate.20:22
mordredI agree with ttx20:22
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ttxOR be adopted by Cinder20:22
russellband there seems to be lack of consensus on fundamental approach20:22
mordredI agree with ttx's OR20:22
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ttxwhich would ensure that duplication is kept yo a minimum20:22
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jgriffithttx: so for the record, markmc is absolutely correct I was HAPPY to see it proposed as a new project20:22
mordredI think 'it was taking too long to get cinder to make a decision' is not a reason to split into another thing20:22
markmcmordred, that was not the reasoning20:23
mordredit sohuld be a separate thing if there is a good technical reason for it to be a separate thing20:23
mordredmarkmc: not saying it was20:23
ttxjgriffith: but taht was before we came up with the programs concept20:23
mordredI'm saying, if it was, then it's not good enough20:23
markmcthe reasoning was a technical one20:23
jgriffithttx: exactly20:23
jgriffithmarkmc: +120:23
markmcthat the two things are different enough for warrant a separate project which will evolve differently20:23
markmcrather than make cinder do both20:23
dhellmannmarkmc: project or program?20:23
markmcevolving in lifeless's direction is an example of that20:23
markmcdhellmann, separate codebase20:24
* jgriffith likes the concept of a project on top of cinder....20:24
dhellmannmarkmc: ok, I don't see that as an answer to the governance organization, though20:24
ttxmarkmc: I think (1) it would make sense to make it part of the cinder PROGRAM to esnure as much of cinder is reused as possible and (2) that incubation is a bit early for them20:24
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markmcso, why does it belong under the cinder program?20:24
jgriffithespecially  now that I see things like lvcreate etc in the code20:24
markmcbecause their both storage?20:24
dhellmann"guest storage"?20:24
markmcwhy not swift, then? :)20:24
ttxmarkmc: same people interested in both ?20:24
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jgriffithoh no.. not that again20:25
markmcttx, is it? (I didn't think so)20:25
dhellmannjgriffith: how much of the teams contribute to both?20:25
jgriffithmy question is can the scope be modified on Manilla20:25
ttxmarkmc: jgriffith would know :)20:25
jgriffithutilize the blocks of Cinder to overlay the shares management API etc20:25
jgriffithIt's no secret I was never a fan of it in Cinder with the approach they had20:26
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jgriffithdhellmann: not much TBH20:26
jgriffithdhellmann: with the exception of their drivers20:26
dhellmannthat seems like an argument against having them share the same program, then20:26
ttxdhellmann: yeah20:26
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ttxwe might need to define a label, like openstack emerging technology, for stuff we want to draw attention on but for which formal incubation is too early20:27
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vishyi'm more concerned about the dev teams being essentially the same people20:27
lifelessjgriffith: oh they do have lvcreate stuff in there?20:27
lifelessjgriffith: sadface.20:27
vishyalthough that hasn't stopped us from having separate projects before20:27
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dhellmannvishy: I thought jgriffith was saying they are *not* the same20:28
ttxvishy: jgriffith says those are different people ?20:28
jgriffithvishy: I was actually hoping they'd build a dev team, but I may have been overly optimistic20:28
sdagueyeh, actually the lvm driver is kind of weird, it seems to presume the netapp model a bit20:28
jgriffithdhellmann: vishy they're the same people but they're NOT very active in Cinder20:28
jgriffithdhellmann: vishy with the exception of maintaining their driver20:28
dhellmannso not much cross-over of core reviewers?20:28
jgriffithno core20:29
ttxInteresting fact: their application lists 16 developers but github only saw 6 (including markmc and mordred who are not listed)20:29
markmccommitters so far:20:29
dhellmannttx: contributors to designs and in meetings?20:29
mikalThe wiki page mentions many as _future_ developers20:29
mikalWhich confuses me20:29
ttxdhellmann: maybe -- but that page lists them as devs20:29
jgriffithhaha... two fo those are the same guy :)20:29
dhellmannmaybe in their timeline they have already graduated from incubation?20:29
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ttxYulia is listed 3 times in that paste20:30
dhellmannttx: maybe I have a broader definition of developer :-)20:30
russellbthat contributor list reminds me of designate20:30
ttxrussellb: yes, and what applied to them applies here as well imho20:30
markmcso, 5 committers really?20:30
jgriffithso I've asked the TC for opinions on this whole thing before and happy to do it again20:31
jgriffithBut I do NOT think mixing the API is a good idea and never will20:31
vishymy basic thinking is the following: the feature set is only trivially different from cinder20:31
russellbactually, 3 of those are the same guy20:31
mordredI'd say they need to get more devs - and that they need to use cinder for underlying volumes20:31
jgriffithif we want to look at building a service/feature set on top of cinder again I'm down with that20:31
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vishywhich means that there just isn't that much work to do on common code20:31
zanebmarkmc: and only 98 commits20:31
ttxanyway, a bit unfair to go further on that subject without them being present to defend themselves20:31
vishyso all contributions will essentially be to drivers20:31
markmcvishy, currently - assumption is it will evolve to be more different20:32
vishyso essentially we are creating a silo for nfs drivers20:32
ttxbut it really looks less advanced than your usual incubation submission20:32
jgriffithvishy: +120:32
jgriffithand that would solve a number of my concerns/issues20:32
vishymarkmc: I really don't see where they will "go" with features but maybe I am being pessimistic20:32
russellbttx: +120:32
vishyI'm actually ok with having a driver silo20:32
markmcclainI'm concerned that the project is setting itself up for vendor silos20:32
ttxwould definitely give it the emerging tech label though -- we kinda want what they build20:32
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sdaguemarkmcclain: +120:32
markmcclainwe have enough problems with those now20:33
vishybut creating a whole program for that seems a bit strange20:33
ttxHow about we rediscuss this next week when they will be around ?20:33
jgriffithso I *thought* they intended MUCH more than this20:33
jgriffithmaybe it's just slow to get started20:33
sdaguettx: agreed20:33
vishythat said, we can give them the chance to turn it into a viable program20:33
russellbttx: do we need an official emerging tech label?  :-)20:33
ttxrussellb: I more and more think we do20:33
russellbttx: we like this concept, but it's still very young20:33
jgriffithrussellb: I'm not sure I even agree with that20:34
ttxsdague: we can discuss new incubation requierments now if you want20:34
sdagueso, do we really need a label to say we like a thing?20:34
jgriffithrussellb: so the *hard* parts that they wanted to solve I'm not seeing here20:34
sdaguettx: ok, sure20:34
vishyit seems like we are going towards having a lot of things in incubation, which means i think we should be more restrictive on graduation20:34
russellbyeah, i'm all for really strict graduation requirements20:34
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vishyultimately that might be the best balance between being an open community and maintaining some quality standards20:34
ttxsdague: I think we do, designate disappeared a bit from everyone's radar -- we would give emerging tech a "pod" at the next summit (understand: a named table)20:34
sdagueso problem statement: we have an integrated openstack release with a lot of integrated projects that we don't actually do an integrated test on... ever20:35
russellbi'd like to err on the side of inclusiveness for incubation, but be really strict to graduate20:35
dhellmannI agree, but do think we could raise the bar for incubation a little higher, too20:35
sdagueonly 5 integrated projects are in grenade today, so barely half have upgrade testing20:35
vishySpeaking of designate, if we are doing names as a service, should we also do cache invalidation as a service? /offtopic20:35
mordredI can be on board with russellb on that20:35
markmcclainrussellb: +120:35
dhellmannwe might want to phase in those changes, though, so new projects understand and aren't surprised by new rules20:35
markmcI think the basic requirement for incubation should be a reasonably viable team around it20:36
sdagueso I think we really need to reset the bar on both getting into incubation, and graduating, because not having integrated gate with our integrated projects is a problem20:36
markmcclainhonestly they're incubation20:36
markmcand sensible technical direction20:36
mordredI dunno. I'm fine with just raising the bar on new projects20:36
markmcclainso phasing in would be bad because then we'd depend on them catching up20:36
markmcclainhistory has shown that doesn't happen20:36
mordredwhat an openstack project ultimately wants to look like should be no surprise to anyone at this point20:36
russellbmarkmc: i like that, and we've seen that's not necessarily trivial to achieve20:36
mordredmarkmcclain: ++20:36
mordredmarkmc: ++20:36
vishy+ 1 for upping the bar on both20:36
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sdaguemarkmc: so the problem with that is that you could take something into incubation that we actually have no path forward to bringing into an integrated gate20:36
mordredmarkmcclain, markmc: could one of you grow a new name?20:36
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markmcsdague, why no path?20:37
ttxmarkmc: i would also try to limit the number of projects incubating at any given moment, so that we can push the required attention to them. As we ramp up more resources we can have more of them in parallel...20:37
dhellmannis there a path out of incubation other than graduation?20:37
markmcsdague, by definition almost, a viable team should be able to bring it into the integrated gate before graduating20:37
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sdagueso ceilometer was a good instance of this, they depended on a backend that didn't run in gate20:37
russellbincubation -> graduation, more focus on full testing, integration with other projects, adherence to processes20:37
sdaguewhich has been part of the delay in getting them into an integrated gate20:37
markmcttx, that's fine, until we reject some project because we said max 5 and they're the 6th :)20:38
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dhellmannsdague: at the time of incubation, the version of mongo available would have run in the gate if it had been available to us (we've added requirements on newer versions since then)20:38
markmcttx, some awesome project20:38
ttxmarkmc: I wouldn't have a hard limit20:38
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sdaguedhellmann: right, because you weren't gating :)20:38
ttxmarkmc: but definitely be a bit more of a pain for the 6th one, has better to be damn awesome20:38
markmcclainalso wouldn't raising the bar go along with the notion that projects don't have grad in 1 cycle?20:38
dhellmannsdague: yes, well :-)20:38
sdagueso now ceilo has moved to non gate testable with the default backend20:39
dhellmannmarkmcclain: I hope so!20:39
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markmcttx, a limit also implies we need to be more aggressive about de-incubating projects - i.e. if stalled project block new ones20:39
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dhellmannsdague: we agreed at the summit to make the sql driver feature complete and gate on that20:39
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ttxmarkmc: if a project stays in incub forever it might actually drop back to emerging tech status20:39
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russellbi'd be surprised if anyone here would argue against making more integrated CI a requirement for graduation20:40
markmcttx, yp20:40
sdagueso the idea that because d-g and devstack both have plugins, it's completely possible for a stackforge project to demonstrate a working d-g job without landing code in other people's projects20:40
sdaguethat would ensure basic sanity that it was runnable in the gate in some format20:40
ttxsdague: would you mind carfting some resolution about the QA side of incubation requirements ? We need to move on to the next agenda item20:40
sdagueyep, sure20:40
russellbgood idea20:40
ttxthat way we can discuss a clear proposal20:41
sdagueI'll pull together and send to the list20:41
ttxsdague: ++20:41
markmcwould be great if we could consider that in the context of a full list of requirements20:41
russellbmarkmc: ++20:41
markmce.g. what about docs?20:41
ttxmarkmc: we could have a reference document in the governance repo that we'll add to20:41
russellband expressing what we expect for a viable team20:41
markmcttx, that'd be awesome :)20:41
markmcwe really need it20:41
ttxmarkmc: and sdague can init it with the QA requirements20:41
markmcboth requirements for incubation and graduation20:42
ttxmarkmc: ++20:42
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ttxok, moving on to next topic20:42
ttx#topic Resolution: official names for Ceilometer and Heat20:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Resolution: official names for Ceilometer and Heat (Meeting topic: tc)"20:42
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/55375/20:42
ttxLooking at the proposed resolution, it seems everyone agrees with the spirit of it20:42
ttxBut there is some discussion around the choice of words, Measurement vs. Measurements20:42
ttxPersonally I tend to prefer Measurements, but then i'm not a native speaker20:42
ttxBTW here is how I plan to set the APRV bit on governance repo stuff, in accordance with our charter:20:42
ttx- Do not set APRV until at least one public meeting discusses the issue20:43
ttx- After the first meeting, as soon as 7 +2s (or -2s) are gathered the motion is immediately considered approved (or rejected)20:43
ttx- On subsequent meetings, if the motion is not approved/rejected by a majority yet, we may call for a "last discussion" on it.20:43
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ttx- At the end of the "last discussion" meeting the motion is considered rejected, unless it collected at least 5 +2s and there are less than 5 -2s (in which case it is considered approved).20:43
markmcttx, how about we consider approving this motion ...20:43
markmcttx, and defer Measurement vs Measurements to https://review.openstack.org/5587720:44
markmcttx, i.e. we want the board to start considering the request, doesn't require Measurement vs Measurements to be decided20:44
* russellb has very little opinion on the presence of the 's'20:44
russellbthey both seem fine20:44
markmcslight preference for Measurements20:44
mordredno s matches the others20:44
ttxmarkmc: you mention Measurements in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/55375/ though20:44
mordredOpenStack Compute. OpenStack Networking. (not Networks)20:45
russellbno s is consistent, adding the s sounds a little nicer20:45
ttxmaybe make it Measurement(s) so that nobody objects20:45
mordredrussellb: ++20:45
markmcttx, right, we can tweak it in https://review.openstack.org/55877 if the consensus is Measurement20:45
russellbso *shrug*20:45
* mordred doesn't actually cares20:45
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markmcttx, doesn't change even a tiny bit the important part of request to the board20:45
jgriffithmordred: me neithers20:45
ttxshould be "OpenStack Measuring" if we follow the rest20:46
russellbOpenStack Measuring?20:46
russellbttx: jinx20:46
ttxrussellb: get out of my brain20:46
markmcOpenStack Yardstick20:46
markmcOpenStack Metrestick20:46
markmcOpenStack Meterstick20:46
markmcnaming is hard20:47
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russellbyes it is20:47
ttxmarkmc: maybe make https://review.openstack.org/#/c/55375/ a bit more neutral towards the naming20:47
sdagueyeh, I was honestly sort of surprised in giving up on metering at the name20:47
ttxso taht nobody rejects it on that groun20:47
markmcttx, more neutral in the 20131106-ceilometer-and-heat-official-names file ?20:47
markmcttx, we can bugfix the file later is my point20:47
markmclike if there was a typo20:48
markmcthe name is not what we're voting on20:48
vishyif we are calling it Openstack Measure the code name should be dram20:48
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markmcthe name is not substantive to the discussion20:48
markmcshouldn't be20:48
markmcbut that's all we're discussing :)20:48
russellbgood point20:48
markmcbut we also don't want to ask the board "let these projects use whatever name they like"20:49
ttxI'm fine with either and anybody not liking it can propose a typo bugfix20:49
denis_makogonsorry, guys, for interrupting you all, but OpenStack Metrics sound good20:49
dhellmannif we're done with the name, what's the story with the 2 definitions of "core" being used?20:49
russellbbut it's more than metrics, that's the thing20:49
ttxdenis_makogon: trick is, the ceilometer folks decided on "OpenStack Measurements"20:49
ttxwe can make them drop an s for consistency, but that's about it20:50
sdagueso, the actual resolution is about us proposing to the board to make these things core, right?20:50
dhellmannsdague: core, but not core?20:50
russellb"what is core?"  *headdesk*20:50
ttxsdague: make those things part of the openstack core project. which is subtly different20:50
markmcdhellmann, it's a farce, is what it is20:50
sdaguettx: right, fair20:50
denis_makogonttx, sound a bit incomplete, maybe20:50
denis_makogonttx, Metrics and Diagnostics20:51
sdagueI agree with markmc, we can bug fix an 's' later20:51
* markmc wants e.g.20:51
mikalThat's something I wanted to bring up in open discussion to be honest20:51
ttx"Core is in the eye of the beholder"20:51
mikalI think we need to be more involved in that "what is core" thing20:51
markmc"Core OpenStack Project" as defined by the bylaws - whether a project can be OpenStack Foo20:51
zanebdhellmann: the story is that a lot of people think that 'core' means something, or ought to mean something, other than how it is defined in the bylaws20:51
markmcthen "required APIs in OpenStack clouds"20:51
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markmcthen "required code in OpenStack clouds"20:51
markmc3 different things, they're not all "core"20:51
dhellmannmarkmc: agreed, but until Beckett comes along and rewrites the scene, we're stuck in it20:51
dhellmannmikal: +120:52
markmcdhellmann, we can't change the bylaws bit easily20:52
ttxOK, let's keep this on-topic, any more question on mark's proposal ?20:52
markmcdhellmann, but we can ask the interop discussion to stop using the term "core"20:52
ttxwe should kickban on "core"20:52
dhellmannmarkmc: does that resolve the issue, though?20:52
markmcdhellmann, the confusion issue?20:52
markmcdhellmann, it helps if we just use the word to mean one thing, yes20:52
zanebmarkmc: if only we could pick another meaningless term to use in the bylaws. Like 'wibble', for instance.20:52
mordredalso, +2 on markmc's motion20:53
markmczaneb, we don't need to talk about the other two meanings of "core" in the bylaws IMHO20:53
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ttxwe need to move on -- any otehr question on that resolution ? If not, you should consider voting soon20:53
dhellmannmarkmc: true20:53
ttx#topic Governance repo cleanups: Add some pre-history meeting summaries20:53
*** openstack changes topic to "Governance repo cleanups: Add some pre-history meeting summaries (Meeting topic: tc)"20:53
ttxWe also have a couple of repo cleanups at:20:53
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/50065/20:53
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/50066/20:54
zanebmarkmc: agree, but the current choice of wording is unfortunate because it appears to mean something in plain english20:54
ttxThose are mostly a transition plan to translate old meetings results into proper governance repo docs20:54
ttxI'll APRV them as soon as they reach 7 +2s20:54
ttxquestions about those ?20:54
markmcyeah, idea is we keep hacking on these until we document all past resolutions20:54
markmcstarting with the most recent first, I guess20:54
mordredmarkmc: 50065 - should we wget the meeting logs into the local repo instead of just having links?20:55
markmcthis is just a map of where we made resolutions20:55
mordredmarkmc: in case eavesdrop happened to die a violent death?20:55
markmcmordred, idea is to summarize and put them in git20:55
markmcI guess we could put the logs in too20:55
markmcseems duplicate, though20:55
* mordred does not have strong opinion20:55
markmcI presume we back up eavesdrop ? :)20:55
ttxif not we should20:55
russellbyep, pretty important historical content i think20:56
sdagueseems like it might be nice to make this a thing that publishes nicely to docs.openstack.org somewhere20:56
russellblike list archives20:56
markmcwould be calamitous if we lost them20:56
mordredsdague: ++20:56
sdagueinstead of just in the git tree20:56
* markmc says 'calamitous' again20:56
mordredI'm pretty sure that we back them up20:56
mordredclarkb, fungi ^^ ?20:56
ttxOK, if there aren't any other question on that, we can switch to open discussion20:56
ttxso that we can rant on anything20:57
ttx#topic Open discussion20:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:57
mikalOk, so the board now has a subcomittee deciding what components of openstack should be required to be deployed to be eligible for a trademark.20:57
russellbfor 3 minutes?20:57
mikali.e. which bits of nova might be required20:57
mikalI think we need to be more involed in that20:57
mordredthat's not quite the case, although I do think that we need to be more involved than that20:58
dhellmannmikal: sub-components of nova?20:58
ttxmikal: about the "future devs" thing on the Manila application -- agree it looks weird. Sounds like people might work on it only if it is incubated, which sounds backward to me20:58
russellbperhaps our resident board members can give a quick status on what's happening?20:58
mikalmordred: I thought the board resolution was to go forth and work out what to require?20:58
mordredthe board has a subcommittee who is deciding what capabilities they expect an openstack cloud to have to be able to use the trademark20:58
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mordredthe bits are quite specifically up the projects20:58
fungire: backups, the question is whether we back up the git repos on gerrit?20:58
ttxmordred: the granularity of that would be the project ?20:58
dhellmannfungi: whether we back up eavesdrop logs20:58
mikalfungi: no, eavesdrop20:58
mordredas in, the make up of what code needs to run and what code can be done by plugins20:58
mordredttx: no20:59
mordredttx: the granularity is api feature20:59
fungioh, got it. sounded like the suggestion was that the git repo was backed up by discussing it in irc20:59
mikalttx: that's what I meant by "bits of nova"20:59
dhellmannfungi: we talked about copying tc logs into git as a backup, too20:59
mikalttx: they might require nova-api, but not mandate a specific hypervisor driver for example20:59
markmcfirst meting of this subcommittee:20:59
markmc"Wed 11/20 at the Piston SFO office"20:59
russellbmordred: so sub-parts of the compute api for example?21:00
markmcall day meeting21:00
* markmc can't make it21:00
mikalYeah, I'm a bit bothered its 8 days notice for an in person meeting in the US21:00
russellbif so, i am incredibly not OK with that21:00
dhellmannwow, who can take an all day meeting like that?21:00
ttxmikal: do we really care what they use the trademark for ? We still control what ends up in the damn project.21:00
fungilooks like eavesdrop is not backed up via bup yet, but should be on the to do list to knock out21:00
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mikalttx: true, but I'd prefer this to not get that confrontational21:00
markmcok, I'll follow up on-list with Rob21:01
markmc1) we want the technical community involved with discussing the specifics21:01
mikalI actually put my hand up in the board meeting as being interested as helping on this, but I am pretty sure it wasn't noted because I was in the peanut gallery21:01
markmc2) an all day meeting in SF with 8 days notice sucks for opening up participation21:01
dhellmannI'd be ok with appointing a subcommittee of the tc to participate21:01
markmcwe've appointed reps from the TC to a board committee before21:02
ttxdhellmann: we could reqiure that it should be a joint committee21:02
markmcthe IncUp committee21:02
dhellmannand I think we should push for these meetings to not be in person, so they are logged and accessible to everyone21:02
mordreddhellmann: ++21:02
russellbdhellmann: ++21:02
ttxBUT if they plan to have in-person meetings, that will be hard for us21:02
russellbthe in person meetings are a bit non-inclusive21:02
markmcok, drafting21:02
ttxanyway, time is running out21:02
mikalI prefer online, but if they insist on in person there should be more notice21:03
mordredmikal: ++21:03
markmcwill send, feel free to chime in if I miss stuff21:03
ttx(even if there is no meeting after this one this week)21:03
russellbmarkmc: thanks21:03
ttxlast minute thoughts before we call it done ?21:03
mikalmarkmc: cc the tc on the email?21:03
markmcmikal, yep21:03
mikal(cc the tc will be the name of the first song from my boy band)21:03
mikalmarkmc: thanks21:03
ttxok, done21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:04
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 12 21:04:00 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:04
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-11-12-20.01.html21:04
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-11-12-20.01.txt21:04
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-11-12-20.01.log.html21:04
ttx(No project/release meeting this week)21:04
mikalLOL. Best open discussion ever.21:04
ttx(Start working on your icehouse plans)21:04
russellbmikal: lol @ "cc the tc"21:04
russellbnova blueprints are an awesome mess still *sigh*21:04
mikalrussellb: I've been meaning to feel enough guilt to take a look at those21:05
russellbsame here :-p21:05
russellbi've definitely had the guilt, summit time is just busy21:05
russellbi had people trying to corner me in between design sessions to review their blueprints21:06
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markwashttx: when/how do we restart the project/release meetings?21:07
markwashis some of that still tbd in terms of the scheduled 1-1s?21:07
markmcclainmarkwash: yes21:07
markmcclainsorry missed the ttx prefix21:08
ttxmarkwash: next week21:08
markwashmarkmcclain: no worries!21:08
ttxmarkwash: posted a thread on -dev about it21:08
markwashttx oh I missed that21:08
markwashfound it, thanks21:09
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david-lyle#startmeeting Horizon22:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 12 22:02:45 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is david-lyle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.22:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.22:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Horizon)"22:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'horizon'22:02
david-lyleHello horizon folks!22:03
jomara_lsmola, hello22:03
david-lyleSmall group today?  post summit lag I suppose22:03
david-lyle#topic General22:04
*** openstack changes topic to "General (Meeting topic: Horizon)"22:04
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david-lyleThere was no Program Meeting this week.  So nothing to report there.22:04
david-lyleThe summit concluded and started a lot of meaningful conversations22:04
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david-lylenow we just need to come to some more concrete conclusions22:05
david-lyleI have a few general items to mention22:05
david-lylePTL Election22:05
david-lyleBy now you should have received an email regarding the Horizon PTL election to fill the recently vacated position. Please remember to vote.  I'm glad that we have an election, which is to say a choice.  I think that's an important part of this community.22:06
david-lyleMeeting Agendas22:06
david-lyleI would like to allow pre-planning of the agenda for this meeting.  So starting next week, I will include a spot on22:06
david-lylehttps://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Horizon for proposed agenda items.22:06
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jpichSounds good!22:07
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david-lyleI think that will help let people prepare for topics and know that they have a spot22:07
david-lyleWith summit related planning/attendance/travel there is quite a backlog of reviews. I started working through them.  Hopefully others can too.22:08
david-lyleI know I have a ways to go still :)22:08
david-lyleGood stuff out there though, that would be great to get in22:08
jpichwe do indeed22:08
david-lyleas far as overlooked items goes Icehouse Blueprints22:09
david-lyleNow that the summit is over, it's time to prioritize the items for Icehouse.  I've started looking through the blueprints and approved/scheduled some of the obvious ones. I will leave the rest to the elected PTL. So, if you're waiting on something blueprint wise, just wait longer ;)22:09
david-lyleHopefully, after next week, things can move forward22:10
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david-lyleFrom the summit though top priority items seem to be:22:10
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david-lyleSplitting horizon and openstack-dashboard22:10
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david-lyleBetter Integration testing22:10
david-lyleReworked Navigation22:10
david-lyle Pluggable modules22:10
david-lyleand Extensive Ceilometer enhancements22:10
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david-lyledid I miss any obvious ones?  or subtle ones for that matter?22:11
lsmola_yaaay ceilometer22:11
jpichWould it be possible to get more milestones added? That might be one for ttx. Sometimes a proposer will know it's not going to happen in 'icehouse-1', but the other milestone choices are on 'on-going' or 'next'22:11
david-lyleI can check, I'm not sure what the mechanics are there, but I agree22:11
david-lyleit seems now either lump it all in icehouse-1 or future22:12
david-lylehard to concretely plan that way22:12
jpichI know ideally as many as possible should land early :-)22:12
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lsmola_david-lyle, was there any conversation about the no-js support, and making a proper client side layer (with angularjs probably) ??22:13
david-lyleno reason not to land all in icehouse-1 and take two cycles off22:13
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david-lyleyes, and I had that to bring up22:13
david-lylelet me close on the priority thing and then we'll jump into that22:14
david-lyleas far at the Information Architecture talks went22:14
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david-lyleWe didn't get as far as I'd hoped with this at the summit.  I want to get guidelines in place in Icehouse-1 so that it is clear where new content should reside.  I will propose a set of guidelines before the meeting next week that can be reviewed.22:14
david-lyleand hopefully we'll lose some confusion22:15
david-lyleok, back to JS22:15
jomara_to js!22:15
david-lylecouple of things there22:15
david-lyleFirst is AngularJS22:15
david-lyleThere was a recent email to the dev mailing list regarding using AngularJS in Horizon22:16
jomara_that's me22:16
david-lyleA test patch was also proposed https://review.openstack.org/#/c/55901/22:16
david-lylejomara: thought the name looked familiar ;)22:16
jomara_i think you all know my thoughts22:17
david-lyleI think it's safe to say lsmola_ and jomara_ are onboard22:17
david-lyleany one have any concerns?22:17
lsmola_david-lyle, after working with the glued together JQuery libraries, I am very excited about the proper layer in Angular22:18
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david-lyleI think it looks like a good fit in general.  It seems you can apply a little or a lot22:18
lsmola_david-lyle, also jtomasek22:18
david-lyleand it's compatible alongside jquery22:18
jomara_yeah, i like the fact that you can just carve out pieces as you go22:19
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jomara_less architectural rsk22:19
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lsmola_david-lyle, yees, and itś beautifly testable :-)22:19
david-lyleand from what I understand has some subset of jquery support built in22:19
jomara_it does22:19
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david-lylemy question from reading the documentation is it seems to imply a compile step22:19
david-lylewhere/when does that happen22:20
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jomara_a compile step? different than normal JS compile/minify?22:20
david-lylemaybe I misinterpretted22:20
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jomara_from a development perspective, i the JS got compiled just by putting it in membership.js (which is added in _scripts.html)22:21
lsmola_david-lyle, yeah i am also not aware of that, I will check22:21
david-lyleok, I must have misread something22:21
david-lyleI'll reread with less jet-lag22:21
david-lyleI'd like to see if the mailing list item generates any more discussion.  I'll respond there too22:22
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jomara_great! thanks22:22
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lsmola_about the no-js support, is there still need for it?22:24
david-lyleand the second part of the javascript conversation22:24
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jomara_are people asking for that? i don't have much context22:24
david-lylethe answer is I honestly don't know22:24
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david-lyleit's a legacy requirement22:25
david-lylemrunge and I talked a little about it at the summit22:25
david-lylereasons against being purely js are accessibility22:25
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jpichThere's been bugs because horizon wasn't usable without javascript a few releases ago22:25
david-lylescreen readers and government regulations22:26
david-lylefor government use22:26
jomara_you can design JS for accessibility, specifically screen readers22:26
lsmola_so all the fun stuff :-)22:26
david-lyleI'm not sure how we'd do on accessibility on the non-JS paths now22:27
david-lylemy guess, not super well, but that's a guess22:27
david-lylejpich: end user bugs?22:27
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lsmola_well comparing to other project redhat has, they have beautiful UI and they just care about that customer loves it :-)22:28
jomara_it would probably be a significantly easier development effort to develop JS w/ accessibility features than a fallback mode22:28
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jpichdavid-lyle: Unclear. https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1006170 requested specifically ability for things to work without JS. This one suggests someone hit a bug while running with JS disabled https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/111750622:29
jpichMostly I remember the first one because of the priority argument22:29
* jpich weird brain22:31
david-lylegood memory22:31
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david-lyleI think this too should be raised on the dev mailing list and see what the use cases for non-js support are22:32
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lsmola_yeah I guess that makes sense22:32
jpichStill an implicit policy. Maybe let's have the conversation on the list? If we can do things and have it be nice accessibility-wise like jomara suggests, that sounds good to me22:32
david-lylejpich: I agree22:32
jomara_jpich, i have some good examples of building JS apps with accessibility in mind (somewhere in my evernote file which i'll have to dig out)22:33
lsmola_jomara_ could you write something to the mailing lists?22:33
jomara_yeah, no problem22:33
lsmola_jomara_ yaaay22:33
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david-lyleok, we'll let those float for the week, and add them to the agenda for next week, and hopefully have more of our bright minds in the room22:33
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lsmola_ok, great22:34
david-lyleI think both are reasonable requests, but we just need to make sure we're not breaking consumers22:35
lsmola_true that22:35
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david-lyle#topic Open22:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Open (Meeting topic: Horizon)"22:35
jpichIt might be one for the 'usage' list too, to figure out if some end users are actually using it this way22:35
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david-lylejpich: by usage you mean just the openstack mailing list?22:36
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* lsmola_ making a mental note that there is something like usage list22:36
jpichdavid-lyle: Yes, the non-dev list :-)22:36
david-lylegood point, that would be a better sampling of end users22:37
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jpichThe dev list message should be handy too to figure out where the policy came from and what people think about it, but since we're talking about users22:37
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david-lyleI'll try to ping gabriel too, as he seemed to hold it as a requirement, to get his reasons as to why22:38
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jpichSoudns good22:38
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david-lyleAny other topics?22:39
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lsmola_I guess not :-) I have a lot of pending reviews, though not sure if they are high priority :-)22:40
jomara_i'll start trying to get reviews in, there is quite a backlog22:40
david-lyleI have a ways to dig out still22:41
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david-lylejomara_: all reviews are welcome and as the emphasis moves to include more js more reviews of js will be very important22:42
lsmola_david-lyle, I have started on reusable charts, would be great if you could check it out :-)22:43
david-lylelsmola_: I saw the patch, didn't have the focus to tackle it yet.  I'll get to it soon.  I just got back early this AM22:44
david-lylereviewing bits and pieces on the way22:44
lsmola_david-lyle oh, ok :-)22:44
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lsmola_david-lyle, I should finish it probably tomorrow or day after, so no rush :-)22:45
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david-lyleI'm looking forward to getting a reusable set in there, so piecemeal is fine too22:45
david-lylesmaller reviews :)22:45
david-lylealright, I think we'll call it for today.22:46
david-lylethanks everyone22:46
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:46
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 12 22:46:53 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:46
lsmola_thank you22:46
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-11-12-22.02.html22:46
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-11-12-22.02.txt22:46
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-11-12-22.02.log.html22:46
jomara_david-lyle, thanks!22:47
lsmola_have a good night22:47
jomara_night guys22:47
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lblancharddavid-lyle: whoops missed the whole time change thing for the meeting :) Here now though!22:57
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julimdavid-lyle - looks like I missed the mtg as Daylight savings confusion. oh well.22:59
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