Wednesday, 2013-11-20

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nati_uenopedro_r_marques: around?05:03
thomas_morinhi nati05:03
nati_uenohi thomas_morin05:03
pedro_r_marqueshi nati05:03
nati_ueno3 guys is joining the meeting05:03
nati_uenoCan we start meeting?05:04
pedro_r_marquesI'm fine.05:04
pedro_r_marquesAre there any other participants ?05:04
thomas_morinok for me as well05:04
nati_ueno#startmeeting neutron-advanced-routing05:04
pedro_r_marquesThere was additional interest in the mailing list05:04
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 20 05:04:53 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is nati_ueno. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.05:04
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron-advanced-routing)"05:04
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_advanced_routing'05:04
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nati_ueno#info etherpad page
nati_uenoso one agenda is MPLS VPNs integration bp05:05
nati_uenoIf you guys have the other agenda, please add it on the etherpad05:06
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nati_ueno#topic MPLS VPNs integration05:06
*** openstack changes topic to "MPLS VPNs integration (Meeting topic: neutron-advanced-routing)"05:06
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nati_uenopedro_r_marques: could you paste the mpls bp on the etherpad and here?05:06
pedro_r_marquesWill do.05:07
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nati_uenopedro_r_marques: Thanks05:07
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pedro_r_marquesCan you please verify that the link is accessible.05:08
nati_uenothomas_morin: Actually, we have a discussion on the bp. We simplified existing bgp mpls bp05:08
nati_uenonew bp is much more simpler and easy to manage05:08
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nati_uenodo you guys have feedback on this ?05:09
thomas_morinthe new bp is the googledocs just lnked by pedro ?05:09
pedro_r_marquesThe proposed doc is trying to capture the minimum set of objects necessary to extend a Neutron virtual-network to an L3VPN network05:09
thomas_morinI think it's the right direction05:10
pedro_r_marquesThe requirements are: implementation agnostic; admin should be able to manipulate the object independently of the tenant05:10
nati_uenothomas_morin: Thanks05:10
nati_uenoOK, may be we should share this in the mailing list and get more feedback.05:10
thomas_morinit's good to separate the properties of an external VPN network from the rest05:10
thomas_morinone thing we may add, is the type of vpn:05:10
nati_ueno"properties of an external VPN network " <-- which properties?05:10
pedro_r_marquesNati: would you be willing to incorporate the new text in your BP ?05:11
thomas_morinalthough the primary use of BGP/MPLS VPN today is IP VPNs, it woulc be nice to describe E-VPN as well05:11
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nati_uenopedro_r_marques: I'll deprecate my old bp05:11
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thomas_morinno different properties for E-VPN: same set of properties than IP VPNs05:12
thomas_morinnati_ueno: "properties" -> the attributes in the bp05:12
pedro_r_marquesIt already has a set of subscribers. I would prefer to continue the work05:12
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pedro_r_marquesIs it dificult to edit ?05:12
nati_uenoE-VPN looks not L3VPN05:12
nati_uenopedro_r_marques: Which one?05:13
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nati_uenoso may be L3VPNConnection should be BGPVPNConnection ?05:13
thomas_morinE-VPN protocol architecture is completely similar to the protocol architecture of BGP/MPLS05:13
nati_uenopedro_r_marques: It is easy to edit05:13
thomas_morinnati: i think so yes05:13
nati_uenothomas_morin: yes.05:13
nati_uenopedro_r_marques: any thought for BGPVPNConnection?05:14
pedro_r_marquesthomas: do you have a strong preference to make it a single object ?05:14
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thomas_morinlooks less verbose to have one object with a type, rather than two05:14
pedro_r_marquesIt would be useful to be able to distinguish between l3vpn and evpn connections05:14
thomas_morinbut appart from that I don't care05:14
nati_uenoit looks like easy to understand if we have l3vpn and evpn05:15
pedro_r_marquesone may want to connect one address family but not the other... e.g. evpn may not make sense beyound the DC05:15
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pedro_r_marquesfor instance in the OpenContrail implementation inside the DC both l3vpn and evpn are turned on by default05:15
thomas_morinok for me : one resource for l3vpn and another one for evpn05:16
pedro_r_marquesbut the user would probably not want to extend evpn05:16
nati_uenoany way, let's have separate bp for evpn05:16
pedro_r_marquesOK. We can add two types that look the same...05:16
nati_uenolet's have a small step05:16
thomas_morinone question: what is the network-id field exactly ?05:16
pedro_r_marquesno objection.05:16
pedro_r_marquesThe neutron network uuid05:16
pedro_r_marquesi.e. one attaches the connection object to the network to connect it...05:17
pedro_r_marquesNachi's requirement is to be able to have different permissions on network and l3vpn-connection05:17
thomas_morinwhat if you want to connect the L3VPn to more than one neutron network ?05:18
pedro_r_marquesYou can add multiple connection with same route-target05:18
nati_uenothomas_morin: we can create multiple L3VPN with same route-target05:18
pedro_r_marquesperhaps as export-only05:18
nati_uenoThe other way is to use service-context05:18
thomas_morinbut who creates the connections ?05:18
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nati_uenothomas_morin: it's depends on deployment05:19
thomas_morine.g. it wouldn't be good to require the admin to create a connection each time a tenant want to bind a neuton network to the external vpn05:19
nati_uenosome carrier has OSS for L3VPN05:19
pedro_r_marquesThe neutron apis would be l3vpn-connection-create/list05:19
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nati_uenoso we have a way to use service-insersion-context05:19
nati_uenoin that we can specify multiple networks05:19
thomas_morinbinding a neutron network and external network could be done by a second resource05:20
pedro_r_marquesmost likely the "connection-create" command would have to be either issued by admin or verified by it.05:20
pedro_r_marquesthomas: the connection object's job is only to connect the network outside05:20
pedro_r_marquesthe network could be an l3vpn inside (like contrail) or not05:20
thomas_morini would think it preferable to have an API letting the admin create an L3VPN object, give access to it to a tenant, and then let the tenant bind it to neutron networks later, as it wishes, as many times etc, through another API05:21
pedro_r_marquesA network implementation could be using a gateway to connect a neutron network implemented via other mechanism05:21
nati_uenothomas_morin: I agree. so we can hide route-target value, then let's tenant update network id05:21
pedro_r_marquesthomas: we can provide for that workflow... if admin creates a network called "External" with an l3vpn-connection that works05:22
thomas_morinwell, we would also need to let the tenant *add* network-ids05:22
pedro_r_marquesThe tenant can later on connect its internal networks to that network... via network-policy or a VPC router05:22
nati_uenothomas_morin: good point05:22
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nati_uenoI'm start thinking to use service-insersion-context is right way05:23
pedro_r_marquesIf the network already exists and tenant asks admin to connect it to a WAN network; the object also allows for that workflow05:23
thomas_morinI link the idea of using service-insertion or the policy API to bind neutron network to external network05:23
pedro_r_marquesnati: can you provide link to service-insertion ?05:23
nati_uenopedro_r_marques: sure05:24
pedro_r_marquesthomas: in the OpenContrail implementation we do today deploy service VMs between internal networks and external networks.05:24
thomas_morinpedro: your idea is not bad, but what if the tenant mistakenly delete the network that's bound to the external network ?05:24
pedro_r_marquesThe external network is defined as a neutron network plus additional route target information05:25
nati_uenoyou can access bp from the link05:25
pedro_r_marquesthomas: that is not an issue necessarily... the tenant is allowed to bring down its configuration05:25
thomas_morinpedro: sure, but if the API let's the user shoot himself in the foot, it may be a sign we don't have the right API yet ;)05:26
pedro_r_marquesservice-insertion is complementary to l3vpn05:26
pedro_r_marquesthomas: tenant can destroy a VPC for instance05:26
pedro_r_marquesThat allows it to tear down all networks05:27
pedro_r_marquesl3vpn connection should not imho be tied to service-insertion05:27
thomas_morinthe issue is whether or not the tenant can rebuild the setup to access the external VPN network05:27
pedro_r_marquesservice-insertion should work between networks.05:27
pedro_r_marquesthomas: one can fail a delete request if objects are still associated to it05:28
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pedro_r_marquese.g. network that has an l3vpn-connection can have its deletes refused05:28
pedro_r_marquesthat would be the behaviour of for instance the contrail plugin05:28
pedro_r_marquesIt doesn't let objects before orphan05:28
thomas_morinif we can have a way to make "read-only" the neutron network associated to the L3VPn connection, then it's good05:29
pedro_r_marquesservice-insertion is very useful; it is used without an l3vpn external network and vice-versa05:29
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pedro_r_marquesthomas: the plugin implementation has a lot of latitude here...05:30
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thomas_morinpedro: agreed ; we could go a step furthet and make it a mandatory behavior05:31
nati_uenoit looks like we should clearly usecase including admin workflow05:31
pedro_r_marqueswe can modify the BP and add that... network delete should be rejected as long as there is a ref from l3vpn-connection05:32
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thomas_morinyes, the use case should describe what the admin does and what the tenant does05:32
pedro_r_marquesNati: there are several potential workflows... i agree the more documentation the better05:32
thomas_morinpedro: yes05:32
nati_uenothen we can have concrete api discussion05:33
pedro_r_marquesMy assumption would be that most carriers would not let the tenant configure the route target...05:33
nati_uenopedro_r_marques: yes05:33
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pedro_r_marquesbut for instance the service-insertion would be controlled by the tenant05:33
nati_uenosorry going to offline 5min05:33
pedro_r_marquesexample: blue_external is WAN connected network for tenant blue05:34
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pedro_r_marquesThis tenant may want to have direct access to this network by spawning VMs on it or using floating ip05:34
pedro_r_marquesOr may wish to deploy a NAT appliance between the DC's internal networks and this blue_external net05:35
pedro_r_marquesit is also valid to have: admin creates blue_external; tenant creates blue external and asks admin to create connection05:35
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thomas_morinthis would be valid, but possibly not interesting I would say05:35
pedro_r_marquesIn general i feel pretty confident on the API; better use case documentation is needed05:36
pedro_r_marquesNati: what are the action items ?05:36
nati_uenolet's write down use cases05:37
pedro_r_marquesdo you want me to take a stab at capturing some of these... ?05:37
nati_uenoI'll add our usecase05:37
pedro_r_marquesThomas do you have some i left out ?05:38
nati_uenothomas_morin: could you add yours?05:38
nati_uenopedro_r_marques: could you work on general one?05:38
pedro_r_marquesAction items: 1) Nati incorporate l3vpn-connection API into BP05:38
pedro_r_marques2) create EVPN blueprint (who ?)05:39
nati_ueno#action Action items: 1) Nati incorporate l3vpn-connection API into BP05:39
nati_uenopedro_r_marques: EVPN could be future work05:39
pedro_r_marques3) use case text from nati, pedro, thomas...05:39
pedro_r_marquesok then drop 2)05:39
nati_ueno#action (2) use case text from nati, pedro, thomas...05:39
thomas_morinsorry pedro, what did you already add to the bp ?05:39
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pedro_r_marquesthomas: is to be simplified with text from the google docs link05:40
thomas_morinE-VPN can be future work, sure, but adding it is as easy as saying that the EVPNConnection resource has same properties as the L3VPNconnection05:40
pedro_r_marquesin addition there needs to be better description of use cases...05:40
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pedro_r_marquesthomas: nati seems to be of the opinion that a separate document would be a more productive approach05:41
nati_uenoaction 1 is finished
nati_uenolet's work on action205:41
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nati_uenoDo you have any more agendas ?05:41
nati_uenoOK let's continue discussion on the bp05:42
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openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 20 05:43:03 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)05:43
openstackMinutes (text):
nati_uenoNice talk! Bye!05:43
thomas_morinnice indeed, have a good day nati05:44
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nati_uenothomas_morin: good day!05:49
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mesteryHi folks14:00
banixHi; Mohammad here.14:00
mesteryMorning banix.14:00
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mesteryrkukura: Here?14:01
* pcm_ lurking14:01
mesteryasomya: Here?14:01
mesteryMorning pcm_.14:01
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asomyamestery: yes :)14:01
pcm_mestery: howdy14:01
aveigamorning mestery, lurking as well14:01
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sc68calgood morning14:01
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rcurranrcurran - present14:01
mesteryMorning sc68cal.14:01
mestery#startmeeting networking_ml214:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 20 14:01:48 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_ml2)"14:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking_ml2'14:01
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mestery#link Agenda14:02
mesteryOnly two things on the agenda today: Testing and TypeDriver discussion.14:02
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mestery#topic announcements14:03
*** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: networking_ml2)"14:03
mesteryAnyone have anything to share with the ML2 sub-team?14:03
mesteryAnnouncement wise?14:03
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* mestery thinks some people have forgotten about the time change in the US.14:04
mestery#topic Testing14:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Testing (Meeting topic: networking_ml2)"14:04
mesterySo, as most folks are aware, the priority item for Neutron in Icehouse is improving Test coverage in Tempest.14:04
mestery#link Neutron Icehouse Project Plan14:04
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mesteryWhat I'd like to discuss for the first part of this meeting is ML2 Tempest testing, and how we can improve things there.14:05
mesteryCurrently, we're testing ML2 with the OVS agent.14:06
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mesteryWe need some additional testing for both Linuxbridge and L2 Population as well, at a minimum.14:06
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mesteryWhat other testing gaps with ML2 do people see exist?14:07
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garykmestery: are the gating issues with ml2 fixed14:07
mesterygaryk: I think they are currently being worked on.14:07
mesterygaryk: Although, specifically which ones are you referring to?14:07
garykmestery: ok, thanks. the mail that jog0 sent to the list indicated that at least 29 failures are due to this. i am trying to dig up the bug give me a sec14:08
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mesterygaryk: I'm also checking ...14:08
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1244255 in neutron "binding_failed because of l2 agent assumed down" [Undecided,Fix committed]14:09
garykit looks like a fix was commited :)14:09
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mesterygaryk: Yes, thanks for sharing this one!14:10
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mesteryIs anyone aware of other bugs for ML2 we should be tracking right now?14:10
mestery#link ML2 Bugs14:11
mesteryThe current list shows 10, with 4 medium ones.14:11
mesteryOK, switching back to Tempest again.14:12
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mesteryFor those who joined late, we need to add Tempest tests which cover ML2+Linuxbridge and ML2+L2 Population.14:12
mesteryTo ensure coverage for those MechanismDrivers.14:13
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matrohonok, working on ml2+l2pop tempest case is in our short roadmap14:13
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mesterymatrohon: Thanks! Any chance you will have something by Icehouse-2?14:14
matrohonmestery: that's our goal!14:14
mesterymatrohon: Great!14:15
matrohonI understood that gating could not occurs on a multi-host config?14:15
mesterySo I'm going to look at adding ML2+Linuxbridge Tempest tests to ensure coverage there as well.14:15
mesterymatrohon: I don't know that for sure, someone from QA can answer that for us I think.14:15
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mesteryBut it would be good if we could make that happen, as L2 Pop is more useful in multi-host.14:16
matrohonmestery: I totally agree, and we need multi-host to test tunneling too14:16
rkukurasorry I'm late - forgot this was scheduled on GMT14:16
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mesterymatrohon: Yes.14:16
mesteryrkukura: No problem. We're discussing ML2 Tempest tests now for expanded coverage per the agenda.14:17
mesteryAt a high level, we need to ensure coverage of all existing Open Source MechanismDrivers.14:17
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amotokinova also seems to have no tests with multi node.14:19
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mesteryamotoki: Good data point. I wonder why that is?14:19
amotokii am not sure the reason now. I just checked nova jenkins results.14:20
sc68calPossibly because multi node nova-network acts the same across nodes?14:20
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sc68calsince it NATs all the instances running on the HV, I don't think there's any east-west side effects14:20
mesterysc68cal: Agreed.14:21
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amotokii see.14:21
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mesteryanteaya: We're wondering about multi-host Tempest tests.14:21
* anteaya listens14:21
mesteryFor some of the ML2 Tempest tests we want to add, multi-host Tempest tests would be a requirement.14:21
mesteryBut we haven't seen any of these. Any idea why those don't exist?14:21
mesteryNo requirement perhaps?14:21
anteayaI have no idea what the reqirements would be but I can find out who would know and get some information flowing14:22
anteayait is possible there is no requirement yet14:22
mesteryanteaya: That would be great! Much appreciated! Point them my way if you can. :)14:22
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anteayain which case, we need to make some14:22
anteayawill do14:22
amotokii think it is better to have multinode tests as second step. it is good to test not only l2pop but aslo agent scheduler or other things.14:22
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jp_at_hpFrom the description of the devstack gate test it is deliberately single-host.  I think the lack of multi-node devstack gate is the difficulty of automating that orchestration at the tooling level.
mesteryjp_at_hp: Thanks for the link.14:23
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mesteryOK, anything else from anyone on testing before we move to the next item on the agenda?14:24
anteayaif we have a use case for testing multi-node we need to create the structure to support that14:24
mesteryanteaya: Agreed.14:24
jp_at_hpShould there be an action for someone to follow up with the ci team to determine if multi-node testing can be performed uin the gate?14:24
anteayawe are creating a whole new paradigm for testing tripleo14:24
aveigamestery, being new to the community I may be missing something here, but is it possible to put in preliminary non-gating tests for IPv6 to be informative?14:25
anteayawe can do the same for multi-node now that we know about it14:25
mesteryjp_at_hp: Good idea.14:25
matrohonanteaya : great!14:25
mestery#action mestery to follow up with the ci team to determine if multi-node testing can be performed in the ate.14:25
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mesteryaveiga: I think that's possible, but given how new I am in this area, maybe anteaya knows for sure.14:26
dkehnanother link14:26
dkehnanother linnk
dkehna long time ago this is what I used14:27
mesterydkehn: Thanks for sharing the link.14:27
aveigasorry for not formally introducing myself: I'm Anthony Veiga from the Comcast OpenStack team14:27
mesterydkehn: I routinely use multi-node devstack for testing in my lab as wel.14:27
anteayaaveiga: I don't know the answer to that question right now, let's discuss in -neutron14:27
mesteryaveiga: Hey, welcome!14:27
anteayawelcome aveiga14:27
mesteryOK, lets move on to the next topic on the agenda now.14:28
mestery#topic Modular L2 TypeDriver extra port information14:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Modular L2 TypeDriver extra port information (Meeting topic: networking_ml2)"14:29
mesteryasomya rkukura: Still with us?14:29
mesteryWanted to follow up on this Summit session with regards to the review here:14:29
mestery#link ML2 TypeDriver extra port info14:30
mesteryI think we wanted to discuss how much of that review closed the gap on asomya's Summit session14:30
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asomyaI'm reviwing Zang Mingjie's patch.. seems to overlap quite a bit with what we discussed in the summit14:30
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asomyaBut doesn't quite cover it 100%.. i think we can build on top of his patch14:31
mesteryYes. Perhaps reviving this one is a way to do what you're looking at, which is why rkukura suggested evaluating this.14:31
ZangMingJieAny suggest? so I can improve my patch14:31
asomyaZangMingJie: I'll post comments on the review itself,14:32
rkukuraI like that ZangMingJie's patch opens up TypeDrivers' attribute sets14:32
ZangMingJieok thanks14:32
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mestery#action asomya to provide review comments for TypeDriver patch from ZangMingJie14:33
mesteryasomya: See how much more is needed to handle what you needed in the TypeDriver infrastructure.14:33
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asomyamestery: sure14:34
mesteryAnything else on the TypeDriver agenda item?14:34
amotokiZangMingJie: do you have any document or wiki about your patch?14:34
ZangMingJienot yet14:35
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amotokimestery: in the summit, we need some new "type" for flat but virtualized networks (provided by sdn controller).14:36
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mesteryamotoki: Yes, this was per asomya's discussion.14:36
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asomyaamotoki: That was a proposal to modify providernet extensions to define externally managed networks14:37
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rkukuraasomya, mestery: what modification is needed for this?14:37
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asomyarkukura: We haven't fleshed out the details of the BP yet, at a high level overview: Just the ability to define a few extra attributes when creating a network14:38
amotokiasomya: do we need some new extra attrs?14:39
rkukuraasomya: So does the network type need some attributes other than phyiscal_network and segmentation_id?14:40
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asomyaamotoki: If it's an externally controller managed network, then we might need to somehow expose that in neutron to differentiate between neutron and externally managed networks14:40
sc68calasomya: Would extra attributes include QoS attributes?14:40
asomyarkukura: At the summit, I think Rohit proposed arbitrary attributes for networks14:41
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sc68callooking to rework my QoS API for Ml2, may be germane to the current discussiojn14:41
rkukuraasomya: And I think ZangMingJie's patch provides that, right?14:41
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asomyasc86cal: Nope, this is just information regarding who's managing the network.14:41
asomyarkukura: I just started looking at it a couple of hours ago, if it does then that's great :)14:42
amotokiasomya: I think the impl of a new type driver is simple and it is similar to flat or local. neutron type driver needs to do nothing about segmentation.14:42
sc68calasomya: thx14:43
asomyaamotoki: yes14:44
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mestery#topic Open Discussion14:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking_ml2)"14:44
mesteryAnything else on ML2 this week?14:44
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rcurranquick q for rkukura14:45
rkukuraAre people paying attention to the race condition email discussion?14:45
rcurranportbinding:vlan info available to the delete_port_postcommit() md's14:46
mesteryrkukura: Yes, I am.14:46
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mesteryOK, thanks everyone!14:48
mesteryThose with action items, we'll follow up next week.14:48
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"14:48
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 20 14:48:45 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)14:48
openstackMinutes (text):
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rkukurarcurran: what info do you need in delete_port_postcommit()?14:49
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rcurransegmenation_id (real name)14:50
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rkukuraI think the segments should still be available in the NetworkConext.14:52
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rkukuraIs the bound_segment available in the PortContext?14:52
anteayaI missed the end of the meeting. I really wanted to talk about the gate bugs:
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rkukuraanteaya: Do you want to move to #openstack-neutron?14:55
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anteayarkukura: yes14:55
rkukuraanteaya: Looks like you already did14:55
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rcurrantoday i get the segmention_id via port-bound_segment for update, delete events.14:56
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rcurrannot network14:56
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johnthetubaguy1#startmeeting XenAPI15:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 20 15:00:07 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is johnthetubaguy1. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'xenapi'15:00
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johnthetubaguy1hello all15:00
BobBallHello John15:00
johnthetubaguy1who is around for today's meeting?15:00
matelhi John - now I know why I haven't found you on IRC :-)15:00
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johnthetubaguy1oh the name, yeah, VPN dropped on me15:01
johnthetubaguy1#topic Blueprints15:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:01
johnthetubaguy1so are people happy about Icehouse-115:01
johnthetubaguy1do we have any blueprints that need reviewing?15:01
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matelThis is going to be quick from our side - we haven't registered any bps15:01
johnthetubaguy1I mean the blueprints, not the code right now15:01
BobBallHappy with I-115:02
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johnthetubaguy1it would be good to get things lined up for I-2 soon15:02
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johnthetubaguy1we can look at getting stuff we really one promoted to medium, if I can get more sponsors15:02
BobBallCan you remind us when I-2 is?15:02
johnthetubaguy1but that will need to be soon rather than later15:02
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johnthetubaguy1erm, good question, let me check the date...15:03
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johnthetubaguy1OK, so I can't find that damm page15:04
johnthetubaguy1anyways, its soon15:04
BobBallisn't it always :)15:04
johnthetubaguy1I have a few blueprints up for I-115:04
johnthetubaguy1just finishing the stuff off15:04
johnthetubaguy1but reviews welcome15:04
johnthetubaguy1ah, thank you!15:04
johnthetubaguy1the slashes I added in that URL did not help me15:05
johnthetubaguy1so, W/B 12th December15:05
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BobBallit's again a very short milestone15:05
johnthetubaguy1If my stuff doesn't make I-1 I will try make them medium for I-215:06
BobBallI suspect most of our efforts will be focused on tempest tests in that period15:06
johnthetubaguy1I was about to say its longer due to the holiday, but anyways15:06
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johnthetubaguy1tempest is a good thing to worry about15:06
BobBallbut not blueprintable :)15:06
johnthetubaguy1(lets come back to that in a moment)15:06
johnthetubaguy1well we could I guess… but ignore that15:07
BobBallOf course we could - but I was judging from my interpretation of Russell's "what is a blueprint"15:07
johnthetubaguy1well its doesn't touch nova code, it would probably live in qa team or something15:08
johnthetubaguy1all have some patches up now15:08
johnthetubaguy1the last two need some work from me still15:08
johnthetubaguy1the last one is more of a sketch than real code at this stage, but progress15:09
BobBallso the first one is ready for review?15:09
johnthetubaguy1so is the second one15:09
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johnthetubaguy1third one, not so much15:09
johnthetubaguy1but its still worth a peak to see what you think15:09
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johnthetubaguy1I just pushed this one out to I-215:10
matelnice progress, John!15:10
johnthetubaguy1I think belliott was interested in the above, but not sure yet15:10
johnthetubaguy1anyways, lets crack on15:10
johnthetubaguy1#topic QA and bugs15:10
*** openstack changes topic to "QA and bugs (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:10
johnthetubaguy1our bug list is getting very silly now15:11
johnthetubaguy158 long15:11
johnthetubaguy1OK, some are fixed, but still15:11
BobBallFirst one isn't really ours15:11
BobBalljust I found it15:11
BobBalland it affects us15:11
johnthetubaguy1well, we could fix it15:11
johnthetubaguy1VMware just added some stuff, and we asked them to start namespacing VMware specific stuff15:12
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johnthetubaguy1we could help come up with a baseline that can be tested, but I am too busy to help right now15:12
johnthetubaguy1anyways, just wanted to raise that, we need some effort of getting that list of bugs under control15:12
johnthetubaguy1it might just mean me being more critical about the priorites of some15:13
BobBall42 not fixed15:13
johnthetubaguy1right, its still too high15:13
johnthetubaguy1or looks high compared to other bug groupings15:13
johnthetubaguy1but maybe we are better at tagging15:13
johnthetubaguy1needs some work15:13
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johnthetubaguy1maybe beginning of Icehouse-2 we do a XenAPI bug day?15:14
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johnthetubaguy1#action johnthetubaguy1 to organise a XenAPI bug squash day15:14
johnthetubaguy1cool, so QA?15:14
johnthetubaguy1hows the getting tempest tests running going?15:14
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johnthetubaguy1I really want to see how I can help make this happen15:15
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johnthetubaguy1even if the test is always failing, I would love to see something on that zuul list15:15
matelOkay, that's a separate issue15:15
BobBallwell firstly an account where we can run things in the RAX cloud for Mate would be very good15:15
johnthetubaguy1sure, sign up for a free developer account15:15
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matelThat's why I wanted to contact you John.15:15
matelAh, OK, will do that.15:16
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matelI hope it doesn't ask for my cc details.15:16
BobBallthe 6-month thing is the bit I'm just hitting up against with mine15:16
BobBallit will Mate15:16
johnthetubaguy1if you need more to make this happen, then… get euan to sign up15:16
matelCan we get a proper account somehow?15:17
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johnthetubaguy1it is a proper account15:17
johnthetubaguy1maybe I am missing something?15:17
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matelSo: I won't give any cc details here.15:17
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BobBallYou can't sign up to RS cloud without CC details15:17
matelSo if that's a dependency, I need to find someone with a cc.15:17
BobBallpretty sure of that15:17
matelWe need to find a company card in this case.15:18
johnthetubaguy1yeah, you will need a credit card, its an anti-faud thing15:18
johnthetubaguy1well I will leave that with you15:18
matelOkay, that will delay things I guess, but we'll find it out.15:18
BobBallwell perhaps - if my acc can be extended to have more than 6 months of free credit - we can use that.  John?  Any chance?15:18
BobBallor should I talk to Ant?15:18
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johnthetubaguy1well you can ask, let me make an email thread15:19
johnthetubaguy1#action help sort out an RS cloud account for matel15:19
matelThanks, in the meanwhile I will sync up with his work.15:19
johnthetubaguy1so where are we now?15:19
johnthetubaguy1what is left to do?15:19
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johnthetubaguy1what is the preferred route?15:20
matelAt the moment I am working on a document, and my recommendation is to use the RS cloud and the infrastructure15:20
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matelBut I need to sync up, and understand the steps required.15:21
matelnested virt.15:21
matelIn short: no decision made yet.15:21
matelI was just communicating my personal view.15:21
matelSpoke with dan15:22
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matelAnd we think that TripleO is not there yet to provide us the thing that is required by nova.15:22
johnthetubaguy1well, we could run xenserver-core inside a rackspace performance flavor VM, with nova-compute running in dom0, running tempest tests, kicked off by devstack15:22
johnthetubaguy1yes, triple0 is happening, but I don't see it reporting too much yet15:22
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johnthetubaguy1how far are we from the xenserver-core thing doing what we want15:23
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matelI agree - the thing you mentioned would be one way. That includes running devstack in dom0 and fixing xenserver-core.15:23
mateland fixing full tempest15:23
johnthetubaguy1noting that we only need a subset of tempest to work, for the initial phase15:23
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matelYes, sure, a start with smoke I think will be fine.15:24
matelAnd we're already passing them15:24
johnthetubaguy1at the summit, it was accepted that some of tempest would be good, but just smoke was probably too little15:24
johnthetubaguy1so lets just turn off the bits of full that are failing15:24
johnthetubaguy1OK, so I think we should just go for that15:24
johnthetubaguy1its a good starting point15:24
matelSo my plan is to discover if the nested virt is working at all.15:25
johnthetubaguy1when we have that, I will try get the Rackspace test suite running up there too15:25
johnthetubaguy1I thought bob got that working?15:25
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* johnthetubaguy1 looks at BobBall15:25
matelYes, Bob got it working, but it involves several manual steps afaik.15:25
BobBallfor XenServer yes15:25
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johnthetubaguy1OK, so not tried xenserver-core?15:25
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BobBalland it was highly manual because RS cloud depends on xenstore for IP address15:25
BobBallxenserver-core doesn't work yet in that scenario15:26
BobBalldon't know if it can be made to work15:26
johnthetubaguy1why is that?15:26
matelIf it's manual, it's not working.15:26
BobBallwe need the kernel to disable the Xen bus on boot15:26
BobBallbut the config option to disable it didn't work when I tried it15:26
johnthetubaguy1hmm, odd15:26
BobBallnot certain that the syntax / positioning was right - but it's far from clear that it'll work15:26
BobBallwithout that config option, the kernel upgrades to PV15:26
johnthetubaguy1ah, I see15:27
BobBallor - more to the point - even when running in HVM mode it'll detect it's running under xen and unplug the non-PV devices15:27
matelIf the nested virt does not work, we are dead.15:27
BobBallat which point we are left with no networking or disk, because the PV devices can't come up with no xenstore to the outside15:27
johnthetubaguy1indeed, but doesn't sound like we have tried too hard just yet15:27
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johnthetubaguy1so we don't have xenstore?15:27
johnthetubaguy1I thought you said that was working?15:28
BobBallIt might work if we can figure out how to set it15:28
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BobBallI really don't want to recompile the kernel :(15:28
BobBallxenstore can never work with nested xen15:28
johnthetubaguy1right, thats where I was confused before15:28
matelI think XenServer needs to learn how to become a good guest!15:28
BobBallI've certainly never said it was working :P15:28
johnthetubaguy1I thought you said xenstore was working, I guess thats because it was in PV?15:28
BobBallXenServer can be a guest - that has been working - but it can't dynamically get an IP15:28
BobBallcan't boot Xen as PV15:29
BobBallif it's PV then it's only booting the kernel15:29
johnthetubaguy1sure, I agree with that15:29
BobBalland not Xen15:29
BobBallso it doesn't apply15:29
BobBallI mean it's physically not possible :)15:29
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johnthetubaguy1sure, I think we are talk a little cross purposes15:29
johnthetubaguy1so if we do XenServer as a guest VM15:30
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johnthetubaguy1we still hit the needing the IP address issue?15:30
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BobBallWe have two options:15:30
BobBall1) Base image is XenServer (or xenserver-core).  Would need config drive or another way to get an IP address automatically.15:31
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johnthetubaguy1I should be able to sort out the config drive thing15:31
BobBall2) Base image is CentOS and we install xenserver-core on top, using the static IP address CentOS got from xenstore before upgrading15:31
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johnthetubaguy1oh I see, thats how that worked15:32
johnthetubaguy1I like (2)15:32
johnthetubaguy1but then it will take too long with that reboot15:32
BobBallIt would be nice, but it is far less certain15:32
matelIs it an HVM centos?15:32
BobBalland less stable15:32
johnthetubaguy1yeah, there is an option (3)15:32
matelI think these things could be summarized into a proper table to avoid future missunderstandings.15:33
BobBallYes - so option 2 would need us to prepare the image and convert it to HVM before installing xenserver-core15:33
BobBallWas that the sound of a volunteer Mate?15:33
johnthetubaguy1yeah, I need to understand the zuul image creation system15:33
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BobBallThere isn't really one15:33
BobBallit uses the images from the cloud15:34
BobBallruns a prepare script on them to add them to the node pool15:34
BobBallthen it pulls from the node pool15:34
johnthetubaguy1I thought the re-created an image every evening, then get some of them started "hot" and ready for code, then use them when required15:34
BobBallwe can do anything we like in that prepare script15:34
johnthetubaguy1ah, OK15:34
johnthetubaguy1so that makes (2) possible in the prepare scrip15:34
BobBallbut yeah, it can't take too long15:34
matelAnd how much time do we have in the prepare script?15:34
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BobBallor - at least - that's my understanding15:35
BobBallnot sure it's limited mate15:35
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johnthetubaguy1well, they start them up and add to the pool15:35
johnthetubaguy1then the start time is when they get pulled out the pool right?15:35
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johnthetubaguy1we can skip exercises, and just do tempest (obviously) which saves some time15:35
BobBallif we've got a good argument for extending any timeouts I'm sure the check jobs will accomodate15:35
matelOkay, so as a first step, why don't we have a zuul job, with an empty prepare script?15:35
BobBallunless it's the actual run time15:35
BobBallFirst step should be to prove the difficult bit :)15:36
matelThat's not good15:36
johnthetubaguy1yeah, first bit is get xenserver-core running in a VM15:36
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BobBallactual run time might need more discussions :)15:36
matelI think, as the end result is a zuul job, you can demonstrate the results, if you have the frontend.15:36
BobBalldon't assume it's going to be xenserver-core - I think that's much riskier15:36
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johnthetubaguy1OK, but its more changeable15:37
matelI am worried about the way we approach this.15:37
BobBallwhich is a bad thing for the OpenStack team15:37
johnthetubaguy1me too15:37
matelI want to see the empty zuul jobs running.15:37
johnthetubaguy1Can we just get tempest passing inside a VM?15:37
BobBallWhy mate?15:37
BobBallWhat do you mean by an empty job?15:37
matelBecause that's how you deliver the things.15:37
johnthetubaguy1yeah, zuul can be consisdered a known thing, I would love to prove the hard thing15:38
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matelI want to see things triggered by zuul, and modify things to give sensible results.15:38
johnthetubaguy1but we could do this is parrallel15:38
BobBallIt's useless unless it's setting up a XenServer in a way that we're happy has a chance of passing things15:38
johnthetubaguy1people do lots of crazy modifications to zuul already15:38
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johnthetubaguy1+1 we need a VM with tempest passing15:38
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matelI would do the zuul first, at least that's my way of delivering things.15:39
johnthetubaguy1I care much less about what version of XenAPI is running15:39
johnthetubaguy1we are not at the delivery phase, we are at the, could it work phase15:39
matelThe key thing here is to deliver something _VISIBLE_15:39
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johnthetubaguy1if it takes 2hours to do full temepst15:39
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johnthetubaguy1we can drop it on the floor15:39
BobBallperhaps I'm mis-understanding what you want the zuul to do Mate15:39
johnthetubaguy1and add tempest into smokestack15:39
BobBallwould it have anything to do with XenAPI?15:40
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matelFirst runs would do nothing, but then we would be able to develop the system by amending the scripts.15:40
BobBallok - yes, in which case I think that's the wrong approach15:40
matelSo that we have feedback.15:40
BobBallbecause that's the bit we're more certain about how it would work15:40
johnthetubaguy1yeah, I think I see what you mean matel, but we need to prove its worth trying first right, else thats wasted effort?15:41
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johnthetubaguy1anyways, we can do this in parallel if you want15:41
matelWhat I am worried about is the progress of this task. I want to have visibility, and not relying on people saying "it works"15:41
matelFor me zuul is unknown, nested virt is unknown15:42
mateleverything is unknown.15:42
BobBallWe don't know that we'll have a solution to nested virt15:42
matelAnd on these situations, you want to see something.15:42
BobBallbut the solution to the Zuul end is definitely feasible15:42
johnthetubaguy1+1 don't worry about zuul15:43
BobBallan empty job in Zuul makes things known, absolutely, but it doesn't give any visibility - because it wouldn't be doing anything useful15:43
johnthetubaguy1so here is my view...15:43
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matelMaybe you missunderstood my intentions, but we could speak about it later, maybe what I want is not possible in this framework.15:43
johnthetubaguy11) we need tempest to run under an hour15:44
mateldefine tempest15:44
mateldefine machines15:44
matelAre we talking about the perf flavour?15:44
johnthetubaguy1tempest full, but with a few tests missing if we want15:44
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johnthetubaguy12) I don't care where that runs, if it works15:44
johnthetubaguy13) I don't care who runs it15:44
matelOkay, it's taking 2 hours on phy machines, but they might be slower than perf.15:44
johnthetubaguy14) the easiest runner is zuul, but right now it only talks to the cloud15:45
johnthetubaguy15) we need to prove its fast enough in the cloud, i.e. nested virt15:45
johnthetubaguy16) we need to prove we can automate the creation of that, I am happy to add a few little hooks to make that possible15:45
BobBallIs the 2 hours running through tox?15:45
johnthetubaguy17) we can wire that into zuull15:45
johnthetubaguy12 hours is really really bad15:46
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BobBallmatel? is the 2 hours using tox?15:46
matelserial tempest afaik15:46
johnthetubaguy1well, thats probably the issue15:46
johnthetubaguy1so step 1, maybe, can we try tox on the physical machines?15:47
matelUsing parallel execution = loads of failures.15:47
BobBallnah - let's go straight to the cloud15:47
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johnthetubaguy1well, we can always just do smoke I guess15:47
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johnthetubaguy1I need to improve build times anyways, so I can help optimize that15:47
BobBallindeed.  Parallel is great if we can get it working, but if not, we need it not on local machine15:48
matelRan 175 tests in 521.146s15:48
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matelI don't quite understand why do we need to run these expensive tests to test the driver...15:49
matelbut that's another question.15:49
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johnthetubaguy1because its what runs fast everywhere else, they are functional tests that prove the whole thing works right?15:49
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BobBallLet's figure out what's possible to do first before we focus too much on the speed of the full suite.15:49
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johnthetubaguy1we have some faster ones than run in well under 15 mins I think, but thats a different thing15:50
matelBecause we don't have proper tests for the drivers righ?15:50
BobBallWe can look for speedups or reduce the tests we run at another time15:50
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johnthetubaguy1nope, we do have OK tests for those, but we stil NEED tests with the whole stack15:50
johnthetubaguy1but anyways15:50
matelBut that's the whole OS, not nova.15:50
johnthetubaguy1lets focus on getting smoke tests running15:50
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matelAnyhow, I have seen, that OpenStack community is keen on burning CPU time, it makes everyone happy and proud... :-)15:51
johnthetubaguy1matel: before when we didn't include the other bits it all fell apart, its not like we run swift mind15:51
matelOkay, sorry for that.15:51
matelBe constructive.15:51
johnthetubaguy1matel: but if you have ideas on speeding that up, certainly suggest them15:51
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johnthetubaguy1so the goal...15:52
johnthetubaguy1tempest (smoke to start with) running in a cloud VM15:52
johnthetubaguy12) automate the creation of said VM in a script15:52
johnthetubaguy1yeah, we have to just try it, and stop talking really15:53
johnthetubaguy1who wants to do that?15:53
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BobBallMate does15:53
matelI don't have access to the RS cloud15:53
johnthetubaguy1but bob does...15:53
matelbob != mate15:53
BobBallWe can fix that short term15:53
BobBallI don't have a medium term solution15:54
johnthetubaguy1OK, so let me come around tomorrow, and we can work on this?15:54
BobBallthat's what John is looking into15:54
matelI can play with that, Bob can tell me what he has done so far.15:54
BobBallnot worth it yet john15:54
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johnthetubaguy1So, matel/BobBall do you want to try XenServer?15:54
johnthetubaguy1I can go with xenserver-core?15:54
BobBallCan't without config drive15:54
johnthetubaguy1OK, so I should work on config drive?15:55
matelJohn: I would don't care what is it, let's do a test drive, measure, and act15:55
BobBallIf you can push a way of an HVM guest with no xenstore to get an IP15:55
BobBallthat would be _SUPER_ helpful15:55
johnthetubaguy1#action johnthetubaguy1 to make sure config drive has useful ip addresses15:55
BobBallin RS cloud15:55
BobBallthat's the key big15:55
johnthetubaguy1yeah, I missed that bit15:55
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BobBallit's useless if it just works in nova somewhere and might get to RS cloud in 201515:55
johnthetubaguy1I have the patched merged for the OS case15:55
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johnthetubaguy1yeah, its probably 2014 now, but I can try15:56
BobBallalso, it's the HVM guest with no xenstore thing too15:56
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johnthetubaguy1though config drive, yes15:56
BobBalli.e. if config drive mounts as drive number 5 and required PV tools to mount it - it's useless15:56
johnthetubaguy1its device 4, I made sure of that15:56
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BobBallthat's good15:56
johnthetubaguy1its not an accident15:56
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BobBallwe're out of time15:58
matelOkay, so the message is that Mate/Bob will look at the nested VM, report issues to John, and John will help with those issues.15:58
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johnthetubaguy1its #315:58
johnthetubaguy1sounds good15:58
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johnthetubaguy1who whats to take the meeting next week?15:58
johnthetubaguy1I am on holiday15:59
matelWe'll just skip it I guess.15:59
johnthetubaguy1or shall we skip it?15:59
BobBallWell we'll skip it then15:59
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johnthetubaguy1see you in two weeks15:59
johnthetubaguy1thanks all15:59
BobBalllet me finish it?15:59
matelHave a good holida15:59
matelHave a good holiday15:59
johnthetubaguy1BobBall: sure15:59
johnthetubaguy1mate: thank you :)15:59
BobBallpoo - didn't work15:59
johnthetubaguy1wait for it...15:59
matelpoor Bob.15:59
BobBallwasn't that > 60 minutes?15:59
johnthetubaguy1a message comes up15:59
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matelHave you tried to turn it off and on?16:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"16:00
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 20 16:00:22 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)16:00
openstackMinutes (text):
BobBallok good - proved it works.16:00
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BobBallI'm happy now.16:00
johnthetubaguy1Nicely done16:00
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BobBallAND proved it doesn't work < 60 minutes :)16:00
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thingeedo we have a jgriffith? he's the only one with an agenda item :)16:02
jungleboyjBeuler, Beuler ... Beuler16:02
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winston-dDuncanT-: you can take over the chair if you like16:03
bswartzI think David Wang is running the meeting this week16:03
jungleboyjOk, for those of us not in HK, what is up with David Wang?16:03
caitlin56David Wang looks like John Griffith, doesn't he? At least that was my memory from the summit.16:04
avishayHe wasn't in HK either16:04
winston-dwhat happens in HK, stays in HK16:04
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bswartzwinston-d: +116:04
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DuncanT-Anybody got anything they want to discuss that isn't on the agenda?16:04
jgriffithI do I do16:04
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avishaywinston-d: :)16:04
thingeejgriffith: :)16:04
jgriffith#startmeeting cinder16:04
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 20 16:04:56 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:04
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:04
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'cinder'16:05
jgriffith#topic I-116:05
*** openstack changes topic to "I-1 (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:05
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jungleboyjHowdy all.16:05
jgriffithI've been slashing through the proposed items for I-116:05
jgriffithmostly because there's no activity for most of them16:05
peter-hamiltonhi all16:06
* avishay looks at volume retype16:06
jgriffithWanted to make sure nobody had any updates on any of the items16:06
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jgriffithavishay: it's still targetted don't worry16:06
avishayjgriffith: i know :)16:06
jgriffithis there anything that people are actively working on that isn't targetted?16:06
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DuncanT-I'm concerned that most of those blueprints have no more than a line or two detail...16:06
caitlin56jgriffith: the biggest item blocking our work on snapshot is having a clear consensus on how a target shouldbe specified.16:06
jgriffithKeeping in mind that I-1 is only about 2 weeks away16:06
avishayBTW, for those who don't know:
winston-davishay: thx16:07
dosaboyjgriffith: i'd like to add
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1251334 in cinder "volume create race condition protection" [Undecided,In progress]16:07
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jgriffithdosaboy: done16:08
peter-hamiltonjgriffith: i'd like to get some eyes on
jgriffithDuncanT-: yes BTW16:08
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1248519 in python-cinderclient "'search_opts' unexpected keyword argument for resource manager list()" [Undecided,New]16:08
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jgriffithWRT to poor BP's16:08
jgriffithpeter-hamilton: ewww16:09
jgriffithok... noted16:09
winston-dDuncanT-, jgriffith i was planning to get multi-process API service done in I-1, it's still achievable i think but I haven't registered the bp yet...16:09
jgriffithwinston-d: up to you...16:09
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DuncanT-caitlin56: Can you explain what you mean there please? I don't understand your problem16:10
* winston-d writing a bp for API workers16:10
jgriffithwinston-d: if you think you'll have it done get the BP up and I'll target it16:10
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jgriffithAnybody from the Dell team around?16:10
winston-djgriffith: sure. will register the bp and then bug you16:10
caitlin56DuncanT: how do you specify another storage backend? It is particularly tricky if you have a Volume Driver that supports multiple targets.16:11
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avishaythingee: do you know if anyone from Dell is around? :)16:11
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DuncanT-caitlin56: Specify another storage backend for what?16:11
jgriffithwinston-d: :)16:11
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caitlin56DuncanT: as the target of migration, or new mirroring/replication.16:11
jgriffithDuncanT-: I believe caitlin56 would like to have a single driver instantiation for multiple backends16:12
winston-dcaitlin56: is NFS shares you are talking about in migration case?16:12
jgriffithcaitlin56: correct?16:12
thingeeavishay: I scanned the list of people in the channel, but no luck16:12
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caitlin56jgriffith: it's a general problem, but our NFS driver hits the issue, yes.16:12
avishaythingee: i was trying to poke fun at your HK laptop :(16:12
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jgriffithcaitlin56: that didn't answer the question :)16:12
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* thingee went to bed a 3am16:13
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DuncanT-caitlin56: I'm afraid I've not got enough context here to understand the problem. Not sure I've I've missed a discussion16:13
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jungleboyjavishay: Not everything can have a Thinkpad.  ;-)16:13
avishayjungleboyj: not everyone wants one... ;)16:14
jungleboyjavishay: True enough.16:14
avishayjgriffith: are we still on I-1...we went severly off-topic.  should we add this topic on the end?16:14
jgriffithOk... let's get back on track here16:14
jgriffithavishay: haha16:14
caitlin56Duncant: if you want to replicate a snapshot, or migrate a volume, you need to specify (directly or indirectly) another storage backend.16:14
winston-done of nexenta engineer mentioned the problem that NFS drivers can manage mulitple NFS shares within one instantiation.16:14
jgriffithavishay: I don't even know what the topic for them is :)16:15
avishayjgriffith: damn you and your mind reading16:15
avishayjgriffith: me neither16:15
jgriffithOK... DuncanT- caitlin56 please hold up for one second16:15
jgriffithback to I-1...16:15
anti-neutrinoHello everyone ..16:15
anti-neutrinobefore we start a new topic16:15
jgriffithdoes anybody else have anything that needs to be added/considered here?16:15
jgriffithsomething that will actually land by Dec 516:15
anti-neutrinowanted to introduce myself .. this is my first meeting16:15
anti-neutrinoand would like to contribute to Cinder (as a developer)16:16
jgriffithhi anti-neutrino , we'll have some intro time at the end of the meeting16:16
avishayanti-neutrino: hello, welcome aboard16:16
anti-neutrinothanks Avishay16:16
winston-danti-neutrino: welcome. and hang on please, let other finish first16:16
jgriffithOk... so it sounds like nobody has anything else16:16
jgriffithThe items that are targetted I think are achievable16:16
jgriffithbut those need to be the focus16:17
jgriffithif you're assigned and not going to work on it speak up early rather than later16:17
jgriffithand DONT forget the bugs! :)16:17
jgriffith#topic welcome anti-neutrino16:17
*** openstack changes topic to "welcome anti-neutrino (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:17
thingeehi anti-neutrino!16:17
jgriffithalright, let's all say welcome to anti-neutrino16:17
dineshHi also Dinesh here new to this meeting16:18
anti-neutrinothanks everyone :)16:18
jungleboyjWelcome anti-neutrino !  :-)16:18
zhiyanhello anti-neutrino16:18
jgriffithdinesh: welcome as well16:18
glenngGreetings anti-neutrino :-)16:18
dineshthanks everyone16:18
jgriffithanti-neutrino: sent me an email last night expressing interest in getting involved in Cinder16:18
peter-hamiltonanti-neutrino: welcome!16:18
DuncanT-anti-neutrino: IT'S A TRAP!16:18
anti-neutrinohehe.. would like to experience it16:18
avishayjgriffith: saw this is assigned to me - we didn't settle if it was an actual bug or not ...
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1223189 in cinder "volume gets 'error_attaching' status after attaching it to an invalid server" [Low,In progress]16:18
dosaboyanti-neutrino: kuwakaribisha16:19
peter-hamiltondinesh: welcome 2.0!16:19
jgriffithavishay: personally I still thnk the error is valid16:19
dineshthank you :) peter-hamilton16:20
avishayjgriffith: ok, need to come up with a good solution then ... maybe it'll just fix itself with state machines ;)16:20
jgriffithavishay: DOH16:20
jgriffithavishay: I mean it's valid to report that error16:20
avishayjgriffith: oh, we can mark the bug as invalid - i'm ok with that16:20
jgriffithavishay: the only other option is to eat the error and return to available16:20
jgriffithsome people like that but I find it confusing16:20
winston-dState Machine is the answer to everything~16:20
avishaywinston-d: sure is! :)16:20
jgriffithavishay: IMO invalid/opinion is fine16:20
DuncanT-The whole error reporting thing is tricky... if the volume is still attachable to another host the available is the right status16:21
DuncanT-State machine doesn't solve this :-)16:21
jgriffithDuncanT-: winston-d avishay we've actually been rehashing discussions on FSM and whether it's really useful16:21
winston-dso we need a user-visible 'task state' like nova does?16:21
jgriffithie does it actually solve the problems we're hoping to etc16:21
jgriffithwinston-d: I think so yes16:21
jgriffithWhat shall we argue first.... :)16:22
winston-djgriffith: me too. 'error attaching' is a perfect fit for 'task state'.16:22
avishayDuncanT-: true16:22
DuncanT-We need a user visible 'volume state' but that is I think way more granular than the state machine state16:22
jgriffithwinston-d: I'd like to go that route, I think it would be very helpful going forward16:22
avishayjgriffith: new topic? ^16:22
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DuncanT-'last error' is what we went for with backups IIRC16:22
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jgriffithDuncanT-: did you catch my comment about whether we need a state machine or not?16:23
DuncanT-jgriffith: Yes. I'm ignoring it until I can prove that it really solves problems16:23
jgriffithDuncanT-: :)16:24
winston-dDuncanT-: sample code is coming out pretty soon, i guess16:24
jgriffithalright... shall we go through some of caitlin56 's issues?16:24
jgriffith#topic Nexenta shared driver object16:24
*** openstack changes topic to "Nexenta shared driver object (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:24
jgriffith^^ for lack of a better phrase16:24
winston-dcaitlin56: ?16:25
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caitlin56So that specific issue is "how do you specify a specific backend" - the one operation right now is migrate, but we are looking at mirroriing and snapshot replication.16:25
caitlin56I think all three should have the same solution as to how you specify a specific storage backend.16:25
caitlin56I've heard three suggestions, any of which would work:16:26
DuncanT-So we have some migration now, how does it work?16:26
winston-dcaitlin56: if the back-end here is the same notion we have been using in cinder, I'd say, let admin specifies the target back-end16:26
jgriffithcaitlin56: I still believe that replication config doesn't belong in Cinder16:26
bswartzjgriffith: +116:26
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guitarzanlet's wait for the 3 suggestions16:26
avishayjgriffith: what do you mean by replication config?16:26
caitlin561) have Volume Driver publish a list of locations16:27
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caitlin562) have each Volume Driver only manage a single location and then create some form of aggregate Volume Driver.16:27
caitlin563) create a placeholder volume, a passive volume, that can be a target.16:28
guitarzanhow does migration work?16:28
bswartznone of the above 3 are needed for migrations to work today16:28
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dosaboycaitlin56: iyo which of those would be most applicable to the majority of existing drivers?16:28
caitlin56jgriffith: replication is a subset of both mirroring and migration. It does not make sense to allow greater tasks but ban replication.16:28
winston-di think it'd be easier for us the understand the problem if  you can write more background in etherpad16:29
caitlin56I think the third option is the best.16:29
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DuncanT-3rd option is ugly, I'd really like to avoid it16:29
jgriffithI still say that just becuase we can make our code extremely complex doesn't mean that we should16:30
dosaboyI'm inclined to +1 DuncanT-16:30
caitlin56But its the only one that Ithink works for mirroring.16:30
jungleboyjDuncanT-: I agree.  That sounds like it could lead to confusion.16:30
jgriffithcaitlin56: What's teh benefit here?16:30
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avishayi'm probably the one most heavily involved in migration and replication and i'm lost16:30
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winston-dis there any driver that manages more than one back-end/locations right now?16:31
DuncanT-I'd like to see the proposed end user experience (a full set of the commands they'd run and what they'd see) before I can really evaluate it, but gut feeling is that this is going to get messy real quick16:31
caitlin56jgriffith: on the immediagte topic it is uniformity. As for replication, it is a very valuable feature even if not used in migration or mirroring.16:31
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guitarzanthe problem with #3 is it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the original problem statement16:31
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winston-dguitarzan: same feeling16:31
winston-davishay: lost +116:32
caitlin56avishay: you suggested something like #3 as a method for specifying mirroring during the summit.16:32
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bswartzI think everyone disliked that suggestions for mirroring16:32
bswartzat least the most vocal people disliked it16:33
avishaycaitlin56: i'm currently working on a new design for mirroring which will make things 100% transparent for the user, and as simple as possible for cinder16:33
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avishayi'm trying to avoid multiple volumes for 1 logical volume if possible (need to see if it is in fact possible)16:33
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caitlin56avishay: when would the details of that be available? We'd like to propose snapshot replication to be compatible.16:33
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avishaycaitlin56: hopefully next week16:34
jgriffithcaitlin56: I don't think any of us even really understand your goal here16:34
jgriffithre "snapshot replication"16:34
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dosaboycaitlin56: is there a blueprint for this?16:34
caitlin56dosaboy: yes, and wiki pages linked from it.16:35
dosaboyok ill take a look16:35
caitlin56snapshot replication is a step in either volume migratin or mirroring. It is frfequently a simpler solution that allows simpler solutions that full volume migration or permanentlymirroring.16:36
caitlin56So having it as a distinct capability that can support migration and mirroring, or be invoked directly, makes sense.16:36
caitlin56and since everyone needs to do migratin and mirroring eventually, it is not extra work if you are using snapshots for those methods anyway.16:37
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DuncanT-So one problem you're going to hit here is that currently snapshots are entirely dependent on the existance of their parent volume16:37
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jgriffithcaitlin56: for Nexenta16:37
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avishayi don't believe it should be exposed...if a driver wants to use some technique to implement a higher-level function, that's fine16:37
jgriffithavishay: +100016:37
caitlin56There are lots of additional feagtures that this enables16:38
DuncanT-That's my feeling too, but I'd be interested in a perspective end-user experience walkthough in case I'm missing something16:38
caitlin56It also deals with master images very well.16:38
caitlin56DuncanT: and we have a major user who is demanding some of these features.16:38
avishaybut in my opinion if you're implementing mirroring by naively copying over snapshots and hope to recover, you're going to have a bad time16:38
jgriffithavishay: it's an impossible abstraction as I've said all along16:39
DuncanT-We can already do transparent replication of hot snapshots, no cinder changes required16:39
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caitlin56avishay: it is not naively copying. It is copying snapshots with incremental protocols. It has a longer RPO, but it is very cost effective.16:39
DuncanT-I'm not sure what is gained by making it a first class cinder feature16:39
jgriffithcaitlin56: again it's vendor specific though16:39
dosaboycaitlin56: it's ok we can use the c word ;)16:39
caitlin56jgriffith: it isn't backend specific. All backends support snapshots.16:40
DuncanT-There is no usecase at all in the wiki page attached to that blueprint... that's what I'd like to see. Concrete usecases16:40
avishaycaitlin56: i have no problem with that - all IBM controllers support that mode AFAIK.  i just don't want to implement advanced data-path features in cinder, at least not at this stage.16:40
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caitlin56avishay: the method of replicating snapshots would be up to the Volume Drivers.16:41
avishaycaitlin56: not all back-ends can transmit snapshots, but that's beside the point for me16:41
bswartzI agree that different vendors will implement replication in different ways and it's unlikely that we can find a common API for that in the cinder frontend -- let each of us do vendor specific things16:41
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jgriffithcaitlin56: honestly, I keep coming back to the same responses on this...16:41
avishaycaitlin56: can this be contained in your driver?16:42
caitlin56There is a universal solution: 1) clone an anonymous voolume, 2) migrate that volume, 3) snapshot that volume at the distinction.16:42
jgriffithcaitlin56: if nexenta wants to implement some great snapshot replication features in their backend then have at it16:42
jgriffithcaitlin56: but they're not core Cinder functions16:42
caitlin56avishay: we need clients to be able to request migrating snapshots.16:42
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jgriffithcaitlin56: if you want to use your systems strenths for things like replication/migration etc that's fine16:42
jgriffithit's an implementation detail16:42
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DuncanT-What is the actual use-case? What is the user trying to achieve when they are doing this?16:42
avishayrequest migrating snapshots?  why would a user care about migration method?16:42
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caitlin56The user does notcare how snapshotsare migrated.16:43
caitlin56That's why letting each volume driver select the method works fine.16:43
avishaydo you want to enable volume migration, but for snapshots?  is that the goal?16:44
caitlin56But I can build a default implementation out of already defined methods in case the volume driver does not supply a method.16:44
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caitlin56It's snapshot replication, not migration. You can build volume migration out of snapshot replication.16:44
dosaboyi dont see the difference tbh16:45
bswartzI understand this proposal I just think that it won't end up working for drivers other than nextenta's16:45
DuncanT-What is the end-user benefit of exposing snapshot replication? Rather than doing it behind the scenes where users never know?16:45
avishaycaitlin56: what would be the user-visible API?16:45
caitlin56If I replicate snapshots then I can clone a volume on the destination. It's advanced prep for an emergency migration.16:45
avishaycaitlin56: i.e., mirroring16:46
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caitlin56avishaty: snapshot replicate would need to be placed on a snapshot and specify the target.16:46
dosaboyif you want to copy a snapshot from one backend to anther you can effectively do that with the existing volume migration by temporarily converting snap to vol then back to snap16:46
jgriffithso let me ask people what a better user experience is here:16:46
caitlin56It is very similar to mirroring,except that each replication is one at the specific direction of the user.16:46
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jgriffith1. Manually do things like setup/request snapshot replication etc16:47
caitlin56It can also be used to distribute master images, not just mirroring.16:47
winston-dto me, anything (API) doesn't work between two totally different back-ends (two vendors), doesn't make sense.16:47
jgriffith2. The admin configures replication ahead of time and it's just always there16:47
DuncanT-Why do my end users want to know anything about backends? Why should they know if I have 1 or 20, let alone care about the data distribution?16:47
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jgriffith2 minute warning for this topic by the way...16:47
winston-dcaitlin56: does your snapshot migration works between an IBM controller and a SolidFire?16:47
DuncanT-Just spot hot snapshots and transparently replicate if necessary. Driver specific and no core changes needed16:48
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caitlin56Duncan: because customers want tobe able to control multiple replicas. Mirroring is a greatsolution, but expensive.16:48
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caitlin56winston: no, inter-vendor replication would need to be done using backup. The goal of snapshots is to be vendor-specific and efficient..16:49
bswartzCan what caitlin is suggesting be implemented as a cinder extension?16:49
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winston-dcaitlin56: then it's not a Cinder API.16:49
jgriffithcaitlin56: then I'd suggest writing an extension and giving it to your customers that want this16:49
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dosaboycaitlin56: that's not something that everyone would want to expose though imo16:49
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avishaycaitlin56: my replication design will allow admins to set RPO via volume type.  so set it to 24 hours or whatever you want.16:49
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jgriffithOk, that's time on this one :)16:50
jgriffith#topic open-discussion16:50
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caitlin56avishay: that's good. But it still requires a permanent relationship.16:50
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jgriffithNot snapshot replication16:50
glenngDoes anyone have an aspirin? ;-)16:50
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winston-dglenng: sold out, earlier next time16:51
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thingeeDuncanT-: fsm POC coming this week I read?16:51
avishayour review queue got huge again...somewhat due to jenkins going crazy, but we seem to be slipping a bit16:51
avishayboth jenkins queues are over 100 right now16:52
jgriffithavishay: I've been out for almost a week so I'm a great big fat slacker :)16:52
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winston-davishay: our ultimate review machine went on vacation for a few days.16:52
jungleboyjWould it be uncouth to ask for some eyes to get the 4 cached volumes/performance improvements merged into stable/havana?16:52
avishayjgriffith: who let you go on vacation? ;P16:52
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jgriffithavishay: :)16:52
jungleboyjjgriffith: Hope you did something fun!16:53
winston-djungleboyj: unfortunately, most ppl here don't have +2 right for stable tree16:53
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avishayjgriffith: there were a couple LVM-related patches that I wanted you to see before approving16:53
thingeejungleboyj: I'll take a look. I need it merged too16:53
jungleboyjWondered how I had gotten so far ahead of jgriffith on reviews.  :-)16:53
jungleboyjthingee: Cool.  Thanks!  Need it in before the 25th if possible.16:54
jgriffithavishay: I'll check them today.. thanks!16:54
avishayjgriffith: fo sho16:54
* jgriffith is going to stop doing reviews and get kicked off of core :)16:54
avishayjgriffith: also got you this as a welcome back gift:
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avishaythingee: hahah16:55
jgriffithavishay: you are a very very funny man!16:55
jgriffithavishay: and that's a great gift by the way16:55
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avishayjgriffith: hey, it's to help you! :)16:55
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jgriffithavishay: I know.. I was being serious when I said it was a great gift :)16:56
thingee4 min warning16:56
* avishay gives thumbs up16:56
jgriffithdoesn't seem we have anything here we can't talk about in #cinder16:57
avishayi think we should all relax a bit with the rechecks16:57
jgriffithshall we call it a meeting?16:57
avishayjgriffith: 1 min pls16:57
DuncanT-Sounds like a plan16:57
jgriffithavishay: go for it16:57
avishayso jenkins is having some troubles, and things are getting -1'ed16:57
avishayi think for now we can make things easier by not 'recheck'ing everything 5 times until it passes16:58
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avishayreviewers can see if it's an issue with the code or jenkins and do proper reviews16:58
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avishaydoes that make sense?16:58
jgriffithavishay: indeed16:58
jungleboyjavishay: yep.  Probably a good idea.16:58
winston-davishay: +116:58
jgriffithavishay: I'll ping the infra guys and see what's up16:59
avishaycool, that was my public service announcement16:59
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avishayjgriffith: gracias16:59
jungleboyjjgriffith: There were notes this morning on the devel list.16:59
avishayjgriffith: kick it16:59
jungleboyjjgriffith: They are trying to get focus on the bugs.16:59
jgriffithjungleboyj: reading now...16:59
jgriffithavishay: :)16:59
* hartsocks waves17:00
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jgriffiththe great thing is we're not on the list this time :)17:00
jgriffiththat's time17:00
jgriffithhartsocks: all yours17:00
jgriffith#endmeeting cinder17:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:00
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 20 17:00:39 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:00
openstackMinutes (text):
jgriffiththx everyone17:00
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hartsocks#startmeeting VMwareAPI subteam17:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 20 17:01:09 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hartsocks. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI subteam)"17:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'vmwareapi_subteam'17:01
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openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 20 17:01:25 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:01
openstackMinutes (text):
hartsocks#startmeeting VMwareAPI17:01
garykthat was quick17:01
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openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 20 17:01:33 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hartsocks. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'vmwareapi'17:01
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tjonesok we are done!17:01
hartsocksI didn't realize it would take the whole name...17:01
garyktjones: and we completed it without incident :)17:01
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garykchat to you guys next week ...17:02
rgerganovhi guys17:02
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hartsockshey. Who else is around?17:02
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hartsocksOkay. Well, we'll just hope people who can jump in will.17:04
ogelbukhhartsocks: o/17:04
hartsocks#topic bugs17:04
*** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:04
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hartsocksWe've got 3 bugs I've not managed to cycle back to yet.17:05
hartsocksI haven't set a priority on:17:05
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1240355 in nova "Broken pipe error when copying image from glance to vSphere" [Undecided,New]17:06
garykhartsocks: what do you ean we have 3 bugs?17:06
tjonesthat is intermittent17:06
hartsocksBecause I've had no luck reproducing it.17:06
tjones3 non-triaged bugs17:06
garykok, thanks for the clarification17:06
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hartsocksWe have 3 bugs without priority. Sorry, I a word.17:06
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hartsocksSo 1240355 in nova "Broken pipe error when copying image from glance to vSphere" [17:06
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1252827 in nova "VMWARE: Intermittent problem with stats reporting" [Undecided,New]17:07
hartsocksI can't repro. But, I uderstand others have.17:07
garyki have yet to reproduce this one, but it is criticial in my opinion17:07
tjonesthis one is ciritcal - it's blocking our CI.17:07
hartsockswhich one? reporting or intermittend pipe error?17:07
garykif someone has reproduced then they should set it as confirmed17:07
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tjonessorry - should have finished pipe discussion 1st17:07
garykthe statistics - the reason is that if the stats are not reported then VM's cannot be launched17:08
hartsocksWell, I thought Gary had reproduced the pipe thing.17:08
hartsocksyeah. That's pretty bad. So we can call that "High" then.17:08
garykwhich bug are we talking about>17:08
tjoneslets finish the pipe discussoin and move on  - my bad17:08
garyktjones: ok. np17:08
hartsocksSo the pipe bug.17:09
hartsocksGary. You said you've seen it? I can't make it happen.17:09
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garyki have seen this one a few times. not as of late17:09
garyki am marking it as confirmed as i have seen it on my setup17:09
hartsocksSo… it could be gone now for all we know?17:09
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hartsocksWhen it happens is it bad?17:10
hartsocksCan you keep working?17:10
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garykyes, when it happens one is unable to boot a VM and you need to try again. That is bad in my opinion.17:10
hartsocksso is the cloud dead from that point on or does it recover?17:11
hartsocks… and yet three groups have tried to repro. this and can't.17:11
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garykthe cloud is not dead. the current VM being booted fails.17:12
hartsockswell, I'm calling that Medium for now and moving on to a more important thing then.17:12
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1252827 in nova "VMWARE: Intermittent problem with stats reporting" [Undecided,New]17:12
hartsockstracy go!17:12
tjonesCRITICAL!  blocking CI17:12
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tjonesand someone from this TZ should take it on so we can work with ryan and sreeram on it.  gary was looking, but its at the end of his day17:13
tjonessabari was taking it but he was sick yesterday17:13
hartsocksTechnically, we can't put things under "Critical" since our driver's failures don't hit critical in the grand OpenStack scheme of things.17:13
tjonesok super high ;-)17:13
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garyktjones: i looked at the log files that they provided but there was only one concerning then - a image was unable to be deleted17:13
hartsocksSo this I'll tack to the vmwareapi subteam thingy.17:13
tjonesbut it is affecting CI which makes it important17:13
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garykthe bug is criticial17:14
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hartsocksyeah. I guess now that our CI is feeding the Openstack infra we can claim that. Let's do it and see what happens.17:14
garyki think that we need to provide a debug version to sreeram and ryan and see where it goes from there.17:14
garyki'll give them something soon17:15
tjonesi don't know if sabari is here today - if not who wants to take it?  I can't as i have a prep for a demo tomorrow :-P17:15
garyki can look into it in the coming hours17:15
hartsocks#action Gary to follow up on blocking bug/125282717:15
tjonesthanks garyk - you'll need to pass it on to someone at the end of your day17:15
garyktjones: ok, np17:16
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hartsocksokay, let's not drop that one then.17:16
hartsockslast one… then on to other topics17:16
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1251501 in nova "VMware: error when booting sparse images" [Undecided,New]17:17
hartsocksWhere did we go on that one?17:17
vuilhi just checking in.17:17
tjonesthat looks like a backport issue (on my part) it does not happen in master17:17
hartsocksJust in time.17:17
tjonesi'll take a look17:17
vuilcool. was wondering whay Ryan meant17:17
hartsocksso that might not be an issue.17:18
tjonesnot for master :-)17:18
hartsocksSo bugs in general.17:18
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1195139 in nova "vmware Hyper  doesn't report hypervisor version correctly to database" [Critical,In progress]17:19
hartsocksThis one popped into my attention.17:19
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garykthat is fixed and waiting for review17:19
hartsocksGary, you moved the priority on this and it looks like you got some push back in review.17:19
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garykit was −2 due to the inavlid bug status 'won't fix'17:19
garykit was fixed and vakiudated by a QE engineer at HP who encountered the problem17:20
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garyki have update the bug status and hopefully the reviewr will understand17:20
garykplease exscuse my spelling - i am trying to do three things at once and not succeeding in any of them17:20
hartsocksSo I remember this issue is that the idea of numbers for versions doesn't work universally.17:21
garykat the moment no one has provided a hypervisor version that does not work with the numbers.17:21
hartsocksI understand we can't fix upstream … so this is an attempt to solve a blocking problem.17:21
hartsocksSo the argument is that it's an academic argument.17:21
garykupstream there are 2 issues17:22
hartsocksFor example: W13k isn't the version of any existing hypervisor.17:22
garyk1. the bug fix17:22
garyk2. chnaging the way that is is used in the db17:22
garykthe latter was not liked for reasons unbeknownst to me17:22
garykin the short term we should go with #117:22
hartsocksIf they won't change the DB then I suppose we're forced to do it this way.17:23
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garyksadly this is what we have until someone makes the chnages to the db.17:23
hartsocksWhy is it critical? Is it blocking something?17:23
garykat this stage i am not sure if anyone is actually doing that work17:23
garykit is critical - one cannot use postgres with our hypervisor17:23
hartsocksI'm expecting we'll get a knock on the head for calling it critical but I'll let it ride just to see where the line is.17:25
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garykif others disagree they can chnage the severity17:25
hartsocksIt's a shame this got knocked around so long if it's critical.17:25
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hartsocksDo you need someone to reach out to Joe since he's the one who blocked you?17:26
hartsocksI'll take that off line.17:26
garyki sent him a mail and wrote on the review. if you could reach out to him it will be great.17:26
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hartsocks#action follow up on why bug/1195139 is blocked.17:27
hartsocksSo does anyone else have a bug we need to discuss and sync up on?17:27
* hartsocks politely listens for people who are slower on the keys.17:28
hartsocksokay. We'll have open discussion at the end.17:29
hartsocks#topic blueprints17:29
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hartsocksSo let's do this.17:30
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hartsocksLet's pick a blueprint and discuss it and it's priority to the project, and try and do a different one each week.17:30
garykhartsocks: sadly all bps are set as low until 2 cores jump in...17:31
hartsocksFor background...17:31
hartsocksif you weren't following, the BP process changed. So that if you want higher than "low" priority you have to get 2 core developers signed up for your BP.17:31
hartsocksIn all fairness this doesn't mean a BP won't get done, it just means it won't get done as fast. Virtually all our BP were "low" last round and many still made it in.17:32
hartsocksOn the link I posted...17:33
tjonesso our config checker (which i have done nothing on) didn't make this list cause it doesn't say vmware in it…17:33
garyki just hope that we manage to convince the core guys to jump in and review our stuff. at the moment it seems to be going as usual. an example is the diagnostics. russel has been very helpful here17:33
hartsocks*all* but one of our BP have been bumped *below* "low" priority BTW.17:33
hartsockstjones: it's a dumb query, best I have.17:33
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tjonesthat's ok - i;ll work around it17:33
hartsockstjones: post your BP so we can pick on… er… dicuss it.17:34
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tjonesit's OUR BP ;-)17:34
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hartsocksActually, it's *awesome* that this happened.17:34
tjonesi just put vmware in it ;-)17:35
hartsocksI called my old BP on the configuration validator for the driver defunct. This is much better.17:35
tjonesogelbukh did a nice job of capturing requirements in
ogelbukhwe have 2 distinct parts in it17:36
hartsockstjones: make sure to link that into the BP.17:36
tjonesjust did17:36
hartsocksogelbukh: go ahead17:37
ogelbukhfirst is modifications to common config17:37
ogelbukhadditional flag types and validations17:38
tjonesi like the idea of doing that part in oslo and auto generating17:38
ogelbukhthere are multiple blueprints along that lines17:38
ogelbukhand i think vmware part will be the first one to implement as it's first use case17:39
hartsocksYeah. The validation and config-check thing is a cross-cutting concern for even VMwareAPI related drivers...17:39
hartsocksthe folks on Cinder have some of the same validation checks the folks on Nova will.17:39
ogelbukhsecond part is standalone tool capable of per-service validation17:39
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ogelbukhof cross-services consistency17:40
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hartsocksMy chief concern about validation at service start up and validation in a stand alone tool… was that this would be mostly the same code … so I wanted to see code reuse to avoid duplicate work.17:41
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ogelbukhmy idea right now is that it should 'register' service config or something like that17:42
hartsocksSo I take it this is going to be part Oslo-level work and part work at the driver level?17:42
ogelbukhand validate against 'known' configs17:42
ogelbukhbut that has implications17:42
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ogelbukhand I'm still trying to identify all of them17:42
ogelbukhhartsocks: tjones: I'm not sure that validation logic will be the same for those 2 parts17:43
tjonesconfig validation?17:43
ogelbukhwith oslo.config part it is mostly additional types and regexp matching17:44
ogelbukhwhile in cross-services part we'll have to inspect sematics17:44
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ogelbukhlogical connections between services17:45
ogelbukhthat are not explicit in the code17:45
tjonesservice validation at runtime would get deeper into the config but config validation can be done either place17:45
tjones2 different things to attack17:46
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hartsocksshould we have a separate session to discuss this in depth?17:46
tjonesso how best to work on this further?  another irc meeting ??17:46
tjoneslol - read my mind17:46
ogelbukhi believe so )17:46
ogelbukhwe could have a call in webex or google hangouts if you like17:47
ogelbukhbut time windows are really narrow17:47
hartsocks#action set up meeting (in IRC or otherwise) for ogelbukh, tjones, hartsocks, (and anyone else interested) to discuss config validation17:47
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ogelbukhgiven i'm in utc+817:47
tjonesyes they are very narrow - are you in australia?17:47
ogelbukhand 12 hours difference with PST17:47
hartsocksWell I have a teeny tiny baby… so sometimes 8pm to midnight EST is the best time for me.17:47
ogelbukhno, Russia17:47
ogelbukhMosciw TZ17:48
tjonesvery cool17:48
hartsockssometimes snowy and cold even.17:48
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ogelbukhprobably in 2 weeks )17:48
ogelbukhso we could start with another irc17:48
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hartsocksWe are holding #openstack-vmware for discussions people aren't 100% sure go in #openstack-nova17:49
ogelbukhthat's cool17:49
hartsocksThis is one of those that can probably go either place.17:49
ogelbukhi'm already there17:49
hartsocksSo let's table that BP for now.17:49
hartsocks#topic open discussion17:50
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hartsocksLast 10 minutes, for anything people need to call out.17:50
* hartsocks listens17:50
garykfyi - i have given sreeram and ryan a debug version.17:51
garyktroubling line of code -
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garyki have seen exceptions that they have datastore access problems17:51
tjonesand everything is returning 017:52
garyksreeram had a very good idea of not resetting the stats - we just need to validtae17:52
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vuilCan happen sometimes especially with NFS datastores.17:52
hartsocksSo, sometimes an NFS datastore is "not found" and then later it is?17:53
* hartsocks boggles17:53
vuilyeah. transient network connectivity issues can cause that17:53
tjonesVC too then17:53
* hartsocks nods knowingly17:53
tjoneswonder how they handle it17:53
garyki am not sure. hopefully after a run or 2 we'll have some debug info17:53
hartsocksIt's "the 7 fallacies of Network programming"17:54
hartsocksor something like that.17:54
hartsocksLooks like I remembered wrong. There are 8.17:54
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tjones1. the network is reliable17:54
hartsocksIs it *ironic* that our "cloud computing" code suffers from a lot of these?17:55
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garyki think that they need to reevaluate after the advent of SDN17:55
hartsocksthere might be more?17:56
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hartsocksI have nothing against short meetings.17:57
hartsocksAs I proved earlier. :-) … going once...17:58
hartsocks… twice ...17:58
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hartsocks… three times...17:59
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openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 20 17:59:13 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:59
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hartsocksI'll be over on #openstack-vmware in about 30 minutes.17:59
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stevebaker#startmeeting heat20:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 20 20:00:02 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevebaker. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)"20:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'heat'20:00
stevebaker#topic rollcall20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)"20:00
zanebgreetings, y'all20:00
tspatzierhi all20:00
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stevebaker#topic Review last meeting's actions20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Review last meeting's actions (Meeting topic: heat)"20:01
stevebakerstevebaker re-organise software config blueprints20:01
stevebakerstevebaker to go through summit etherpads and make sure all blueprints are raised
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stevebakerWhat I did to is triage every New blueprint. I closed some software config blueprints20:02
asalkeldwell done20:02
sdake_sounds like serious fun stevebaker20:03
asalkeldserious button pushing20:03
sdake_mouse button broken imo :)20:03
stevebakerI made some arbitrary decisions on what to obsolete, what to target for icehouse-2, and what the implementation progress was for some of them, so feel free to correct anything you think was wrong20:03
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stevebaker#topic Adding items to the agenda20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Adding items to the agenda (Meeting topic: heat)"20:04
stevebakeranybody got anything to add?20:04
asalkeldnot from  me20:04
radixoh man20:04
asalkeld5 min meeting?20:04
radixmeeting time, okay20:04
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stevebakerradix: want to talk autoscaling? I'm sure you're not sick of that ;)20:05
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radixstevebaker: I think the discussion is going well in the mailing list20:05
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radixI've punted the ball back over to zane's court ;)20:05
sdake_we should have more bikeshedding imo :)20:05
sdake_i have 1 q20:05
zanebradix: pretty sure it's back in your court ;)20:06
radixhave we all agreed on whether the as api will be a separate process? therve has already started the first patch20:06
sdake_I saw a msg from steve b re integration into the main process vs separate process20:06
sdake_was a decision made on this point?20:06
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radixzaneb: hmm, I thought I sent the last email20:06
stevebaker#topic autoscaling20:06
zanebradix: wait, you're right. I haven't hit send yet20:06
*** openstack changes topic to "autoscaling (Meeting topic: heat)"20:06
radixzaneb: hah, ok :)20:06
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* zaneb hits send20:07
radixsdake_: well, therve has already started writing a patch that puts it in different engine/api processes20:07
zanebradix: back in your court ;)20:07
radixso it's not like it'll save us any time to integrate it into the main process at this point20:07
radixzaneb: thanks :)20:07
stevebakerzaneb wants it to be a separate endpoint, separate everything is probably fine if therve is doing it that way20:07
sdake_radix sounds like win to me20:08
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sdake_randall is here over shoulder20:08
radixat least that gives us a little bit of room to keep working :)20:08
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radixanyway that's all I have for now, happy to continue discussing on the ML20:09
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stevebakerbtw, I think resource group is a useful thing, as scaling != autoscaling20:09
mspreitz_toowhat is reln with heat-native resource group?20:09
zanebsdake_: I have a question for randall about the resourcegroup20:09
radixoh... one note, rackspace is launching their "auto scale" api today, the one based on Otter. just to assuage any fears, no plans have changed on basically dropping that in favor of heat auto scale once it solves those use cases20:09
sdake_shoot (Randall)20:09
radix(I just saw a tweet announcement come up 30 seconds ago)20:09
mspreitz_toowill autoscaling use heat-native resource group?20:10
sdake_zaneb: this is randall20:10
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zanebsdake_: is that something that's supposed to be leading toward the autoscaling implementation, or... something else (please specify)20:10
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stevebakerI think trove, savanna etc will be doing a lot of generating templates then running stack-update where the only thing that changes is the count of identical resources20:10
radixmspreitz_too: the autoscaling API that we're working on for icehouse scales heat resources, if that's what you're asking20:10
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randallburtzaneb based on earlier discussions its what it says on the tin. an unopinionated group of similar resources20:11
stevebakerSpamapS: here?20:11
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randallburtit could certainly be used as the basis for a scaling group since its not opinionated about what those resources are20:11
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mspreitz_tooI am asking how relates to autoscaling20:11
zanebrandallburt: it seems like something we're just going to want to deprecate when we have the scaling API up and running...20:11
asalkeldmspreitz_too, not sure20:12
shardymspreitz_too: I expect the existing Heat resources which do scaling groups to be reimplemented using the AS API, not sure about static groups such as resource-group20:12
randallburtzaneb, why? what if I don't want that and just a static group of "things"20:12
zanebmspreitz_too: me too, that's what we're discussing at the moment20:12
mspreitz_tooThe multiplier of a static group can be changed with an UPDATE, right?  So how is it static?20:12
zanebrandallburt: I though we already agreed that it would be more about scaling in general and not just autoscaling20:13
randallburtor AS group could be a special kind of resource group. it already does some of the things we talked about scaling group doing20:13
zanebrandallburt: like we do with instancegroup20:13
shardymspreitz_too: Each definition of it is static, rather than modified by heat20:13
radixyeah, it's the policy that makes it "auto", you can certainly treat scaling groups just like resource groups I think20:13
shardystack-update != autoscaling20:13
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randallburtradix yup20:13
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mspreitz_tooSo I am getting the idea that autoscaling is auto mgmt of a 'static" resource group20:14
randallburtmspreitz_too, could be, I haven't looked at therve's latest tbh20:14
shardymspreitz_too: That may, possibly be an implementation option20:15
zanebrandallburt: so, my concern is that this is a _new_ type of abstraction, and I am trying to push the idea of basing autoscaling on existing abstractions because past experience has shown us that there are a huge number of corner cases to deal with when you create a new abstraction for a nested stack20:15
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radixunfortunately I have to go (because I again forgot about the different meeting time in my timezone)... I'll read the log when I get back and keep up with the ML :)20:15
asalkeldsee ya20:16
randallburtzaneb understood, but there's no current native way to say "a group of all the same things"20:16
randallburtso it was a missing implementation of a current abstraction20:16
zanebrandallburt: right, but autoscaling will deliver that20:16
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randallburtwithout scaling semantics20:16
zanebrandallburt: would you say that InstanceGroup is "without scaling semantics"?20:17
asalkeldcan't this be a bit more hidden?20:17
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zanebrandallburt: because I wouldn't, but this seems the same20:17
randallburtzaneb I suppose20:17
asalkeldlike we have a generice resource attribute called "count"20:17
zanebdo a stack update with a different size, and you have to scale it20:17
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asalkeldzaneb, InstanceGroup is a server, his thing is generic20:18
zanebexcept that InstanceGroup handles all kinds of fancy cases, like rolling updates, correctly and this doesn't20:18
randallburtI think we're arguing the semantics of "count"20:18
zanebasalkeld: I realise the reason for implementing it20:18
randallburtupdate handles a different set of things then autoscaling20:18
randallburtthey seem like diffeferent things to me zaneb20:19
asalkeldso I am also a little uneasy about it20:19
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asalkeldbut not sure what20:19
sdkae^^ was from sdake20:19
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sdake_november ftw20:20
zanebsdake_: if you have a count property and you change it during an update, you have to scale somehow20:20
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zanebunless you say replace on update only20:20
angusssyeah go make more20:21
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randallburtok, but that's a result of stack update, not some other scaling mechanism20:21
randallburtand its optional and could be static as a group20:22
zanebrandallburt: right, and I think we want the autoscaling api to work well for that use case too20:22
randallburtzaneb: I totally agree20:22
randallburtwhat is a ZangMingjie?20:23
zanebuh, someones IRC handle. you just pinged him/her, so we'll soon find out :D20:24
stevebakeris it likely that the autoscaling api will use the native resource group?20:24
randallburtseems a good fit to me,20:25
stevebakerthat would make this argument moot20:25
zanebrandallburt: from the perspective of today it looks like a useful feature, but from the perspective of end-of-icehouse it looks like a less featured/buggier version of a scaling API resource20:25
shardystevebaker: I think it may be too inflexible, as ideally we want the complexity of rolling updates etc in the AS API, not the resource-group resource20:25
randallburthow is it buggier?20:25
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randallburtso that's extending what's there shardy, it can be bult upon.20:26
zanebrandallburt: we won't know until we know ;)20:26
randallburthow can something be buggier than an thing that doesn't exist? ;)20:26
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shardyrandallburt: I thought the whole point of the AS API was to contain scaling related policy, rather than implementing it all in Heat20:26
stevebakerbut it could evolve to provide the bits of rolling updates that make sense to put in that layer20:26
sdake_zaneb my take is we dont really want autoscaling in heat directly if we can depend on a third party service for it20:26
shardyotherwise, what are we doing it for?20:27
sdake_the main rationale why we couldn't in the past is because we needed autoscaling and there was no short path to integration with openstack20:27
sdake_we have solved that problem, so lets make the software simpler by breaking out the autoscaling20:27
shardysdake_, randallburt: seriously, don't you have two laptops? ;D20:27
sdake_now that the political bs is out of the way20:27
sdake_i have one :)20:28
stevebakerI say we park this for now. therve and radix need to be here, and the autoscaling implementation needs to be further down the track20:28
zanebstevebaker: if this were to become the basis for autoscaling, it would need to acquire all the features we have built into autoscaling, like rolling updates. it's a step backward in that sense20:28
stevebaker#topic icehouse-1 release20:28
*** openstack changes topic to "icehouse-1 release (Meeting topic: heat)"20:29
stevebakerso i-1 is in 2 weeks!20:29
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stevebakerI've punted blueprints which have no sign of being started20:29
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sdake_looks pretty good20:30
sdake_whats story with this
shardy102 bugs, lol20:30
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stevebakerBut more will need to be punted I think. I'm pretty sure all those blueprints have code in-flight, but some are quite dormant20:30
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sdake_can fix bugs tomorrow20:31
sdake_always tomorrow :)20:31
shardysdake_: I think there are patches up for that already20:31
sdake_shardy cool20:31
stevebakerI think filter-stacks might need a bit of scrutiny. status is the only column that makes sense for exact match20:32
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stevebakercreated_at, updated_at needs a range20:32
andersonvomshardy and sdake_: we can update the status on that. patches were submitted. they need review, though20:32
stevebakername needs a text search based index20:32
sdake_ya just done20:32
shardyandersonvom: Ok, thanks, we can continue the discussion on the reviews then :)20:32
shardyandersonvom, arbylee: FYI the requirements of management-api were discussed at this weeks keystone meeting20:33
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shardyI'm trying to figure out the way forward related to tenantles or service-scoped role assignments to allow global requests20:34
arbyleeshardy: is there a summary/output of that meeting available?20:34
dolphm(the conversation quickly escalated to scope creep galore, unfortunately)20:34
stevebakerzaneb: ^ are proposing that a resource's supported status be associated with a heat release version, eg DEPRECATED at 2013.120:34
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shardyarbylee: see for a link to the logs20:34
* stevebaker wants less tentacles20:35
andersonvomshardy: thanks. we'll take a look at that20:35
dolphmarbylee: checkout the keystone bp above20:35
shardydolphm: Is your feeling that this is achieveable for Icehouse?20:35
arbyleedolphm, shardy: thanks20:35
zanebstevebaker: yeah, I don't know about that. versions are pretty fluid. and operators can deploy any plugins they want20:35
dolphmshardy: the bp above- yes. with scope creep- i'm not sure. it's a pile of complicated wishlist items that won't be consumed in icehouse20:36
shardydolphm: Ok, lets see how it foes, thanks :)20:36
stevebakerzaneb: my objective is a single version of resource documentation, I can't think of any other way of documenting what works in what version without giving meaning to our release numbers20:36
stevebakerzaneb: an alternative will be a template guide maintained per major release. But in reality users will read the first template guide they find in google20:39
sdake_from a downstream perspective separate docs per version would be preferrable20:39
zanebotoh they can query the api to get all of this info20:39
stevebakervijendar: there hasn't been a lot of action in recently. Should I bump to i-220:40
zanebsdake_: right, but ideally the latest docs should contain the history20:40
sdake_if latest docs contain history, wfm20:40
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sdake_but i'm not clear on how this is done20:40
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stevebakerhow can it contain the history if it doesn't mention release versions?20:41
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vijendarstevebaker: I was blocked on
zanebstevebaker: yes, I was arguing your side of the case20:41
* zaneb is on the fence20:42
* stevebaker is about to tip zaneb back to the other side20:42
stevebakerzaneb: so if documentation mentions release versions, wouldn't that give value to a build_info API ;)20:42
stevebakerI'm out20:43
* stevebaker drops the mic20:43
zanebI'm not against a build_info API20:44
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zanebin fact, I think all of OpenStack should have one20:44
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shardyI think documentation should relate to API or template versions, not a build20:44
asalkeldI have to be off  - organize kids20:44
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sdake_later angus20:44
zanebas long as operators have to make a conscious choice as to what info they make available there20:44
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shardyOr even a major version, but that's better than relying on a constantly changing build_info20:45
stevebakerok, it looks like we can move forward on those in the review comments then20:45
andersonvomshardy: agreed20:45
shardyThe thing is, when things stablize, we may not want to bump template format versions, or resource versions or whatever every major release20:45
andersonvombuild_info is still pretty useful, though20:45
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stevebakerCan anybody tell if this is complete?
zanebshardy: but resource type docs are even *less* related to API and template versions than they are to build versions (where the link is already tenuous)20:45
sdake_relying on buildinfo for resource info seems tenuous20:46
shardyandersonvom: now it's authenticated and optional, I'm not opposed to it, I just think for docs, we need something more concrete20:46
stevebakerAfter icehouse I may advocate putting our core resource types on a separate release cycle20:46
shardyzaneb: Sure, we have different versions for API, template, and resources20:46
sdake_what is the downside of having multiple versions of the docs?20:46
sdake_stevebaker brought up "google search" as one problem20:46
sdake_any others?20:47
shardythose versions can have different granularity and cadence20:47
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shardyzaneb: maybe "major version" is an appropriate cadence for resource versions, but what if a large subset doesn't change?20:47
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shardyI certainly hope there won't be huge churn in resource schema every release20:48
zanebstevebaker: maybe we should just make the docs available through the api as HTML20:48
zanebstevebaker: that's the only reliable reference anyway20:48
stevebakerzaneb: on teh fly sphinx generation?20:48
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sdake_sounds like potential security issues with that20:49
shardyzaneb: That doesn't really help template authors who want/need to support things over time tho?20:49
zanebstevebaker: no, definitely not sphinx20:49
zanebwriting html is easy, I have full confidence that somebody here could do it ;)20:50
sdake_jamming the docs near the api is an interesting idea - maybe should be breought up as a cross-project object on ml20:50
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stevebakerrequiring that a browser does keystone auth may be tricky though20:50
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zanebshardy: the only relevant information is "what will work on the clouds I want to deploy to". And the only way to reliably find that out is to ask them.20:50
stevebakercould just ask for content-type text/html on the current /resource_types20:51
zanebstevebaker: good point. we could use an unauthenticated endpoint, so long as it still does throttling &c.20:51
shardyzaneb: That is a major barrier to template portability tho, if folks can't specify a version when they author the template, and expect it to work, and keep working20:51
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sdake_seems simpler just to keep the docs offline tho zaneb20:51
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dolphmstevebaker: we'd like to support basic auth for the single domain deployments20:52
dolphmstevebaker: or even support tokens in a basic auth header20:52
stevebakerwe're almost out of time, any other blueprints in that people have concerns with?20:52
sdake_stevebaker lgtm20:52
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zanebshardy: agreed, but that problem is inevitable in OpenStack. AWS doesn't have that problem because there's only one of them. But we are deliberately giving operators the flexibility to make choices20:53
stevebaker#topic open discussion20:53
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)"20:53
bgorskiI have a question about multi-region. Did you have time to read the discussion on ML? Are everybody okay with choosing the option (2) from Zane's diagram as a way to go?20:53
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stevebaker7 minutes20:53
stevebakerbgorski: sounds good to me. btw I have locally implemented a heat()20:54
andersonvomsooo, build_info! while we also agree that the other openstack projects should/could have it too, isn't it possible that we pull it in and set the example for now?20:54
shardyzaneb: yeah, I just think, if we go to the effort of versioning resource schema, we probably have to give users a choice rather than a constantly expanding matrix of incompatibility20:54
shardyzaneb: it is a hard problem tho ;)20:54
andersonvomthen, in the future, if other projects decide to join in, we can talk again and realign20:54
bgorskistevebaker, What you mean by locally implemented?20:55
stevebakerbgorski: in my tree, no review yet20:55
zanebbgorski: he means he hasn't pushed the patch yet20:55
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bgorskiok good to hear that20:55
bgorskiwhen you will push it to review?20:56
stevebakerum, soon20:56
stevebakerhopefully before EOW20:56
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bgorskinice I'm looking forward to check it out20:57
stevebakernot that anything is gating currently anyway20:57
andersonvomzaneb, stevebaker, shardy: sooo, build_info! while we also agree that the other openstack projects should/could have it too, isn't it possible that we pull it in and set the example for now? and, if other projects decide to add it too, we can talk again an realign. how's that?20:58
andersonvom= ]20:58
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mspreitz_tooconnectivity glitch hit last time I asked, so I will ask again.  Steve Baker, are you implementing software config and, if so, how are you dealing with the circular dependency that Clint harps on?20:58
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shardyandersonvom: didn't you just say that? :P20:58
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stevebakerandersonvom: I think we're in favour, but zaneb's last review comment recommended getting the version from not heat.conf20:58
andersonvomyes, but I didn't ping anyone and no one seemed to have seen it =)20:59
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shardyandersonvom: I think we can continue the discussion specific to the patch on the review20:59
zanebandersonvom: two concerns: 1) we might set a bad example, which would mean having to redo it, deprecate, migrate &c.20:59
stevebakermspreitz_too: I'm working on a POC then will ask IBM for help. It will be implemented with a SoftwareConfig/SoftwareApplier resource pair20:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"21:00
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 20 21:00:01 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:00
openstackMinutes (text):
stevebaker4 seconds over21:00
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eglynn#startmeeting ceilometer21:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 20 21:00:11 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is eglynn. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer'21:00
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eglynnhey everybody, show of hands?21:00
eglynnjd__ is indisposed this week, so I'll fight the ircbot again ...21:00
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eglynntumble weeds ... ;)21:01
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lsmola_my hand is here21:01
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eglynnfairly thin attendance by the looks of it ...21:02
eglynnI'll put it down to post-HK exhaustion ;)21:02
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eglynnhey y'all21:02
eglynnk, lets roll ...21:02
eglynn#topic actions from last week ...21:02
*** openstack changes topic to "actions from last week ... (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:02
eglynnjd__ was to propose a patch on the governance gerrit for our new OpenStack Telemetry moniket21:02
* dhellmann has a flakey irc connection today, so messages are coming in bunches after a delay21:02
eglynnthat was done, here's the review ...21:02
eglynnproving fairly un-controversial so far21:03
eglynnother that the TeleWTF? jibe from markmc ;)21:03
eglynnshould land soon enough methinks21:03
eglynnanyone with buyer's remose on the name choice?21:03
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gordcthat's what google is for... to answer 'wtf' part21:04
ildikovhi all21:04
eglynngordc: yep21:04
dhellmannI like the new name, nice work eglynn21:04
eglynncool :)21:04
eglynn#topic status on icehouse-121:05
*** openstack changes topic to "status on icehouse-1 (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:05
eglynnit's looking pretty thin21:05
eglynnI guess because of the shorter than usual summit-->milestone-1 lead in21:05
eglynnI think that's OK21:05
eglynn... probably a pattern reflected somewhat in the other projects too21:05
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eglynnrelease mgr's thought on this at the project meeting last night:21:06
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dhellmannyeah, ttx said the -1 milestone was set to basically include stuff that was in process already at the summit21:06
eglynnusing icehouse-1 it to clean up the slate and prepare for the real work is fine21:06
* eglynn paraphrasing ^^^21:06
nealphso really, a thin -1 release is a good thing?21:06
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eglynnnealph: well it's also a busy time in the cycle for those with distros to get out the door21:07
eglynnso overall understandable21:07
eglynnbut means we'll be pretty backloaded for i2 & i321:07
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eglynndoes anyone have anything up their sleeve they'd like to target at i-1?21:08
eglynnrelaistically speaking, it would have to be more a bug fix than a BP at this late stage21:08
nealphI think john (herndon)  is looking at the event21:09
dhellmannwere any features implemented after the havana cut-off without a blueprint?21:09
nealphstorage updates.21:09
dhellmannthose would be candidates to be added for i-121:09
eglynndhellmann: none that I can think of21:09
dhellmanneglynn: I didn't think so, either21:10
eglynnnealph: those storage updates == DB migrations?21:10
eglynn(for events)21:10 sec...digging for BP.21:11
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eglynnso it would really need to be well progressed implementation-wise (approaching code-complete) by EoW to have a realistic chance of landing for i-121:13
eglynn(given the review lag etc.)21:13
nealphnoted. I'll leave it to him to comment further.21:13
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* eglynn notices status is blocked21:14
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eglynnk, let's punt on the specify-event-api until herndon and jd__ are around to discuss21:15
herndon_was blocked waiting on alembic vs. sqlalchemy21:15
herndon_sorry, I showed up late21:15
eglynnherndon_: np! thanks for the clarification21:15
herndon_making good progress now, 4 reviews up.21:16
eglynnherndon_: so, were you eyeing up icehouse-1 for this?21:16
herndon_that would be great21:16
eglynnherndon_: (for context, I don't think there's any particular pressure to beef up i-1, but if the feature ready to fly ...)21:16
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herndon_let's see where we are by the end of this week? there is still work to do on the ceilometerclient bit, I think21:17
herndon_and documentation.21:17
dhellmannit's better to target something for a later milestone and finish it early than the other way around21:17
eglynnherndon_: cool let's see how the reviews progress on gerrit, make a call by EoW21:17
eglynndhellmann: fair point21:18
eglynnmoving on ...21:18
eglynn#topic blueprints for icehouse21:18
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints for icehouse (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:18
eglynnwe agreed last week to aim for today for BPs to be filed21:18
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eglynnI've made progress but I'm not thru all mine quite yet21:18
eglynnalso nprivalova has started on a rough aggregation & roll up BP21:19
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eglynn(with some discussion still on-going in the corresponding etherpad)21:20
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ildikovI also have a BP, which I'll finish till the end of this week21:20
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eglynnjust going to say, ildikov is working on locking down the new API query filtering defintion21:20
eglynn... and she beat me to to it :)21:20
ildikovalso with some etherpad discussion21:20
eglynnildikov: cool, thanks for that!21:21
eglynnfor everyone else with an idea discussed at summit that they want to target for icehouse ...21:21
eglynnprolly a good idea to try to get something some rough written down in a BP sooner rather than later21:21
eglynnbefore the memory of hong kong fades too much into the mists of beer ...21:22
eglynnsorry, the mists of time ;)21:22
nealphthe mists of jet lag.21:22
eglynnLOL :)21:22
eglynnonce BPs all filed, I'd expect jd__ will do a first approval pass21:23
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eglynnthen we'll have to start thinking about target'ing to i2 or i321:23
eglynnwe were heavily back-loaded on h3 in the last cycle21:24
eglynn... mostly down to me ;)21:24
eglynnso would be good to have a real chunky i2 milestone this time round21:24
eglynnanything else on BPs?21:24
eglynnk, moving on ...21:25
eglynn#topic tempest / integration tests discussion21:25
*** openstack changes topic to "tempest / integration tests discussion (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:25
eglynnjust following up on last week's discussion21:25
eglynnI put some initial thoughts in that etherpad started by nprivalova21:25
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eglynnwould be great if folks who are interested in contributing to integration testing ...21:26
eglynncould stick in a brief description of the areas they're planning to concentrate on21:26
eglynnjust real rough ideas would be fine21:26
eglynndoesn't need to be poetry ;)21:26
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eglynnjust so long as we don't end up duplicating efforts21:27
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eglynnanyone got anything on tempest they want to raise?21:29
gordci'll just ask since i can't see tempest branch21:30
eglynngordc: which tempest branch?21:30
gordcnot branch... code i guess... is there a specific folder in tempest which ceilometer tests sits on? just curious so i know what to track in tempest.21:30
* gordc haven't touched tempest in a very long time.21:31
eglynngordc: so there's nothing landed in tempest yet AFAIK, but there were some reviews outstanding21:31
* eglynn doesn't have the links to hand ...21:31
gordcok, i'll dig around. i'll need to look at code eventually anyways.21:32
dperazaI have another question21:32
gordceglynn: cool cool. thanks.21:32
eglynndperaza: shoot21:32
dperazaare there any plans to run performance specific tests with ceilometer21:32
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nealphI think this has been raised before...21:33
dperazaI was just looking at
nealphthe variations between env are waaay too many.21:33
litong@dperaza, I was planning to run some test before the summit, then I was pulled to other things.21:33
dperazadid not see tempest action items21:33
eglynndperaza: this will generally happen as part of downstream QE I think21:33
litong@dperaze, I think I can do some of these next few weeks.21:33
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eglynndperaza: tempest is more suited to a binary gate as opposed to shades-of-grey performance testsuite21:34
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dperazalitong is that something that could potentially live in tempest21:34
dperazaor are you thinking another home21:34
litong@dperaza, I think that is different,21:34
litongyou were asking performance tests.21:34
dperazaI do see
ildikovif I remeber well, in HK we discussed to separate it from tempest, I mean the performance tests21:35
litongit should, because they serve different purposes.21:35
dperazaright if we come up with performance buckets where would they live21:35
dperazaare we saying performance would not vote at the gate then21:36
gordcildikov: right. performance tests wouldn't work with jenkins... it's performance fluctuates way too much.21:36
dperazaat least initially?21:36
nealphdperaza:ildikov:can you help me understand the goal for performance testing21:36
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eglynnso tempest seems to support an @stresstest decorator21:37
dperazafirst establish a benchmark and then use as a reference to see how you are improving or regressing21:37
eglynnbut that seems to be just a discovery mechanism21:37
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ildikovnealph: in my opinion performance test helps to understand the behavior of the system under different load21:38
dperazainteresting eglynn21:38
eglynndperaza: I don't think we could realistically gate on such performance tests21:38
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dperazawe can start by stressing a single ceilometer node21:38
eglynne.g. reject a patch that slowed things down by some threshold21:38
dperazaand see where it brakes21:38
litong@eglynn, agreed.21:38
eglynntoo much variability in the load on the jenkins slaves21:39
litongwe can run these performance test aside to help find performance problems, then open bugs and fix them.21:39
eglynnthat's not to say performance testing isn't good21:39
eglynnjust that we can't gate on it IMO21:39
eglynnso tempest is necessarily the correct home for such tests21:39
* nealph nods21:39
dperazaI do think we can have as a non voting jobin jenkins21:39
dperazathat runs daily for example as opposed to on every commit for gatting porposes21:40
gordcdperaza: given how instable jenkins is, i'm guessing you'll get a lot of false positives... or a really bad starting baseline.21:40
eglynndperaza: sure, something like the bitrot periodic jobs that run on stable21:40
DanDIn the testing related session at the summit, didn't someone say there were plans for seperate performance testing systems?21:41
eglynndperaza: but again it would be purely advisory21:41
eglynndperaza: (i.e a hint to get in and start profiling recent changes ...)21:41
dperazaDanD: that will work too21:41
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eglynnDanD: I don't recall hearing that, can you remember the session title?21:42
gordcDanD: that'd be interesting.21:42
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dperazaeglynn: right something to at least tell you the changes that degraded the performance in a period of a few days21:42
DanDwill have to go back and look at the sessions, but there was one focused on testing. and I thought someone from the test group had said essentialy that performance tests would not work at part of the gate tests but that they were working on someone seperate for this21:43
eglynndperaza: k, in principle it would be good stuff but (a) probably best separated off from Tempest and (b) simple integration tests are our first priority now21:44
litong@DanD, @eglynn, I think that the problem is that performance tests normally take long time and we do not want gating job takes long time.21:44
ildikovDanD: I meant this discussion, when I mentioned the separation thing, it was on one of the last sessions I think21:44
dperazaPerformance testing ussually is done also on release or milestone boundries21:44
litongI hope that gating job returns in few seconds.21:44
eglynn(seeing as that's where we have the most pressing/basic gap in our coverage)21:44
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eglynnlitong: agreed21:45
dperazaI think I got the answer to my question, thanks guys21:45
gordclitong: we've been waiting 24hrs+ for some of our patches... a few seconds is a dream. lol21:45
litong@gordc, yeah, my dream.21:46
litongthe point is that we do not include the performance test in gating jobs21:46
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gordclitong: :)21:46
eglynnlitong: yes, we're ad idem on that point21:46
eglynnk, moving on ...21:46
eglynn#topic release python-ceilometerclient21:47
*** openstack changes topic to "release python-ceilometerclient (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:47
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eglynnI've got a couple of bug fixes in progress21:47
eglynnmost importantly
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1253057 in python-ceilometerclient "alarm update resets repeat_actions attribute, breaking heat autoscaling" [High,In progress]21:47
eglynnonce these land, I'd like to cut a 1.0.7 release21:47
eglynnanyone got anything else that they'd like to get in before I cut that?21:48
eglynnherndon_: you mentioned some events support in the client?21:48
eglynnherndon_: note that client releases are cheap and easy21:48
* gordc keeps forgetting to look at python-ceilometerclient stream... will take a look.21:48
herndon_let's skip this one21:48
herndon_that part still has a couple of holes to patch up before it is reay21:48
eglynnherndon_: cool, we can easily spin up a 1.0.8 whenever you're good to go with that21:49
herndon_ok, I will keep you posted21:49
eglynngordc: if you're in a reviewing mood ...
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gordceglynn: will try to give it a look later tonight.21:50
eglynngordc: thank you sir!21:50
eglynnk, we're done on the client methinks ...21:50
eglynn#topic open discussion21:50
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:50
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gordci guess i can ask abour resource stuff here.21:51
eglynngordc: sorry forgot that21:51
gordcnp. :)21:52
eglynn#topic what's a resource?21:52
*** openstack changes topic to "what's a resource? (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:52
gordcin Samples, user and project attributes are pretty self-explanatory and map to keystone concepts pretty well but what about resource_id...21:52
eglynngordc: the floor is your's!21:52
gordci was reviewing and it seems like we don't really have a consistent use for resource_id...21:52
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gordcor i may have missed the concept as usual :)21:53
eglynngordc: yeah so I think the original assumption was that every resource would have a UUID associated with it21:53
eglynngordc: i.e. the pattern followed by nova, glance, cinder etc.21:53
eglynngordc: but obviously swift doesn't fit into that neat pattern, right?21:54
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gordceglynn: right... there are a way meters were resource_id kind of deviates.21:54
eglynnnotmyname: context is using the container name as the resource ID for swift metering, IIUC21:54
eglynnnotmyname: see comments on
eglynngordc: is the issue one of uniqueness?21:55
dragondmo/ (blast dst :P )21:55
eglynngordc: i.e. that the container name isn't guaranteed unique, or?21:56
dolphm(out of scope) why is ceilometer tracking individual resource id's? that seems unnecessarily granular at first glance21:56
gordceglynn: i guess... or maybe just checking that it isn't written somewhere that resource_id in Sample must be <this>21:56
eglynndolphm: we want to be able to query grouped by resource21:56
sandywalshdolphm, for samples it may not be required, but for events we get a lot of use from per-resource tracking21:57
eglynngordc: e.g. must be a stringified UUID?21:57
eglynngordc: I don't think that's a requirement, more just the convention that most services follow21:57
notmynameeglynn: I'm not sure I follow.21:57
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eglynnnotmyname: ceilometer samples include a resource ID that's generally a UUID, whereas a patch for swift metering uses the container name for the samples it emits21:58
dragondmAFAIK, resource id just needs to be a globally unique id.21:58
eglynndragondm: agreed21:59
notmynameeglynn: the (account, container) pair is unique in a swift cluster (eg AUTH_test/images)21:59
dragondmuuid works for that, so there won't be collisions.21:59
gordcdragondm: that's my original thought as well.21:59
eglynnso I think the question is whether the container name reach that bar of unqiueness21:59
notmynameand within the context of a single swift cluster, that pair is globally unique21:59
eglynnseems that (account, container) would be better from what john is saying above22:00
dragondmbut if you have multiple regions it does not...22:00
notmynamemultiple clusters, you mean22:00
gordceglynn: something for the mailinglist? (given the time)22:00
eglynngordc: yep, good call22:00
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dragondmnotmyname: yes.22:00
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eglynngordc: can you raise it on the LM?22:00
gordci'll do that.22:01
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eglynn#action gordc raise resource ID uniqueness question on ML22:01
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notmynamedragondm: if ceilometer is metering multiple clusters, then it must have some sort of cluster identifier. seems pretty easy to construct a unique resource_id from that22:01
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eglynnk, I think we're over time here22:01
eglynnlet's drop the open discussoin22:01
sandywalshsorry for the late arrival (DST) ... re: integration testing, we've started working on storage driver load testing (with a CM fork for test branches)22:01
eglynnsandywalsh: cool!22:02
dperazadperaza: :-(22:02
dragondmYup. we are also looking at testing an experimental Riak driver.22:02
dperazaI gues I could bring up in next meeting22:02
eglynnyep, let's defer to next meeting on the ML as we're over time22:02
eglynnk, thanks for your time folks!22:03
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"22:03
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 20 22:03:29 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)22:03
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terriyuthanks everyone22:04
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ujucHI ~23:57
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DaisyHI, ujuc23:57
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DaisyGood morning23:57
DaisyHi, macjack. Good morning!23:57
DaisyWe will start the meeting in 2 minutes.23:58
macjackGood morning Daisy23:58
zero00072Good morning!23:59
macjackGood morning zero0007223:59

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