Friday, 2013-11-22

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rustlebeeso, this containers meeting in a few minutes .. I think i'll start it as a "nova" meeting for the bot, and then the minutes will be kept in the nova directory16:56
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kramanrustlebee: thanks16:57
rustlebeefew minutes still16:57
kramanrustlebee: im not sure that the meetings commands are.16:57
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rustlebeeyep np16:58
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kramanhello. lets give another few minutes before starting the meeting17:00
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s1rphowdy all17:00
danspragginshello world17:01
samalba_hi all17:01
rustlebeealright, appears to be that time17:01
rustlebee#startmeeting nova17:01
openstackMeeting started Fri Nov 22 17:01:11 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is rustlebee. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)"17:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova'17:01
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rustlebeeusing the 'nova' topic.  minutes will be with the rest of the nova project meetings17:01
rustlebee#chair samalba17:01
openstackCurrent chairs: rustlebee samalba17:01
rustlebee#chair kraman17:01
openstackCurrent chairs: kraman rustlebee samalba17:01
rustlebee#topic Posible new containers service17:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Posible new containers service (Meeting topic: nova)"17:02
* danpb present 17:02
rustlebeekraman: would you guys like to discuss what's written down so far?17:02
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kramanbut before we start would like to see who is on the channel today17:03
damnsmith<- here17:03
kramanPlease indicate if you know one of the container technologies as well17:03
samalba_Yes, especially discuss the different plans proposed (for supporting containers): new service, new api, etc...17:03
samalba_I know Docker17:03
jhoppero/ <- LXC, Docker17:04
danspragginsi've heard of linux.17:04
zul<-- LXC17:04
rustlebeei know things17:04
hallyn_<- lxc17:04
hallyn_<- the things i've seen...17:04
sharwellI'm here as well (first time)17:04
kramanDuring the design session. we had gone over a few different options for how to proceed. 1) new service 2) merge into nova 3) some sort of hybrid17:04
* danpb libvirt / libvirt-sandbox / docker17:05
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kramanThere was no consensus we we decided to try and come up with an API which can support containers and then go back to Nova community and decide how to proceed17:05
* SpamapS knows nothing17:05
zulSpamapS:  yes we know ;)17:05
kramanThanks for the introductions :) Has everyone had a chance to go over the 2 etherpads?17:06
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zulyeah I think a new service might be total overkill at this point17:06
samalbaI guess everyone followed the thread on the ml?17:06
damnsmithI have, and I think the API one is extremely helpful in demonstrating why I think this is a massive increase in scope for nova :)17:06
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kramanPad containers-service line 75-86 contains some of the important use cases we would like to cover. and the api pad goes over the detail17:07
samalbadamnsmith: what do you think of the point raised by Tim in the last email (about what should happen for integration for the end user)?17:07
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damnsmithsamalba: I think that most users would like the entire API to be a single endpoint :)17:08
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rustlebeeand a new APi would only be justified if it's not disrupting existing users17:08
rustlebeebecause it would be for use cases not currently possible17:09
damnsmithI think the deployer's impact of a new service is well-understood to be something we should try to avoid when possible, but not at all costs17:09
damnsmithI definitely understand why people outside of nova want this to be in nova because it's a unit of compute17:09
samalbaI guess we have the same problem with adding a new top-level API in Nova itself, right?17:09
danpbto me the api description in etherpad doesn't seem very large17:09
kramanWe can decide if we need a new API or not after we complete the draft. At this point, we just need to identify the deltas17:09
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rustlebeedanpb: yeah..17:09
danpband several of the "unique" features listed there could easily apply to existing nova code17:09
danpbeg the ability to get a list of processes is valuable even for full OS virt17:10
kramanCan everyone familiar with one of the container tech please update the capabilities section on containers-service-api please17:10
damnsmithdanpb: but it's squarely outside the scope of nova right now17:10
rustlebeedamnsmith: but if it's useful for full OS virt, where would it go in openstack?17:10
sharwellOne of the interesting aspects is even if the API is included in Nova, it seems a fairly common case will involve users that *only* access resources related to containers, while other users *only* access resources related to VMs17:11
* rustlebee is undecided on this issue right now to be clear17:11
danpbnone of the tuning container features listed are at all specific to containers either17:11
damnsmithrustlebee: I've said a couple times that I think it'd be nice if this new service was not containers specific, but a thing that provides "OS services"17:11
samalbarustlebee: same here...17:11
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danpbdamnsmith: yes, that would be a more useful distinction for some of the apis listed17:11
jhopperthere are multiple kinds of containers and I think that needs to be discussed - if we're placing something on hardware (any kind of container) then there is common pattern of usage which Nova already covers17:11
kramandamnsmith: whats an OS service?17:11
damnsmithI think that a well-defined "openstack agent" could live inside guests and provide this capability to all things, not just containers17:12
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damnsmithbut that is a HUGE increase in nova's scope to contain that agent as well17:12
danpbkraman: apis which get information about stuff inside an instance17:12
danpbkraman: as opposed to what we currently do which is mostly about stuff outside an instance17:12
damnsmithkraman: Operating System service is what I meant17:12
jhoppercontainers can and should act like OS instances and I believe nova should handle this - scheduling the creation of containers within these hosted instances could be the realm of a different api/service17:12
rustlebeethat's interesting ...17:12
rustlebeeso it actually wouldn't be involved at all with placement or anything?17:12
kramandanpb: thats a pretty big leap from just managing containers17:12
damnsmithopenstack is going to need in-guest management at some point17:13
damnsmithxen already has it in a totally incompatible-with-everything way17:13
kramanjhopper: containers are not the same as OS instances. just can be as simple as a single process with an ENV and kernel namespaces17:13
kramanjhopper: we loose a lot of the power of containrs when forcing them to behave like a VM17:13
jhopperkraman: how are they not the same as OS instances?17:13
johnthetubaguy1damnsmith: ack, the two way metadata service means its portable to cross hypervisor, but that feels wrong17:13
damnsmithjhopper: containers are not the same as VMs, sometimes people conflate them, but they are much more than just a thin VM17:14
jhopperkraman: containers operation on process trees - containers within containers or VMs loses nothing17:14
danpbkraman: not really, it is about not uneccessarily constraining apis to one specific technology17:14
jhopperdamnsmith: I understand they're not the same as VMs17:14
jhopperdamnsmith:however they share striking similarities with the OS instance that lives on a VM17:14
jhopperdamnsmith: taken further17:14
damnsmithjhopper: oh you mean Operating System, not OpenStack17:14
jhopperdamnsmith: you could argue a container holding a rootfs on bare metal is an instance17:15
damnsmithwe need to stop using OS :)17:15
jhopperdamnsmith: sorry lol17:15
danpbkraman: don't equate VMs == full OS installs17:15
rustlebeean API that talks to an in-guest instance seems like it would have to be pretty tightly integrated with Nova17:15
rustlebeeit's hard for me to think about how that could be out of nova17:15
jhopperrustlebee: agreed17:15
danpbthere are containers & VMs, and either of them can run full OS or  individual services/ processes17:15
rustlebeea separate API, sure17:15
kramanrustlebee: dont think you have to yet. lets go over the API first17:15
zulan openstack agent isnt that what cloud-init is..kind of?17:15
damnsmithrustlebee: I don't know why you say that17:15
SpamapSperhaps for the purpose of this discussion we can say OS == OpenStack, OpSys = Operating System ?17:16
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SpamapSzul: cloud-init is not an agent17:16
rustlebeedamnsmith: could be lots of reasons, like i'm just dumb, or it's friday, or17:16
SpamapSit is a bootstrap tool17:16
damnsmithrustlebee: ah, the inarguable friday excuse.. okay :)17:16
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damnsmithright, so things that people want to do that would be agenty:17:16
damnsmith- two way console communication17:17
damnsmith- live process lists17:17
damnsmith-live process controls17:17
damnsmith- Filesystem manipulation at runtime, etc17:17
damnsmiththose don't need nova's involvement and definitely don't fit with cloud-init I think17:17
johnthetubaguy1- password reset without reboot17:17
damnsmithjohnthetubaguy1: +100017:17
kramandamnsmith: sounds like mcollective17:17
danpbi don't think we should specifically talk about agents - they're a hypervisor specific implementation detail17:17
jhopperI don't know - it seems like nova would benefit greatly from that feature set17:17
damnsmithdanpb: they don't need to be17:17
jhopperif it isn't already in there17:17
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rustlebeeOpenStack would benefit from it, yes17:18
rustlebeeto benefit, it doesn't have to be Nova17:18
SpamapSsounds like "none of openstack's business" IMO. Inside a container is like inside a VM... we're like vampires, the user has to invite us in..17:18
rustlebeehence discussion :)17:18
johnthetubaguy1and its probably in the compute program, just may not Nova...17:18
rustlebeeagreed that this is all in scope for the compute program17:18
jhopperwell sure but realm of responsibility should be taken into account - maybe not nova in particular but I could see the agent working in the scope of many compute components17:19
johnthetubaguy1the question is probably how deep are the hooks in nova, keep the API separate to start with, integrate if it makes sense later, else we get nova-volume all over again?17:19
damnsmithalso, unfscking network without reboot is another agenty thing17:19
damnsmithonline filesystem resize is another17:20
jhopperjohnthetubaguy1: ah17:20
johnthetubaguy1damnsmith: its like your listing what the xenapi agent does, but yes17:20
samalbawould it be useful to have some process managements capabilities for VMs as well as some point? Hence extending the existing API?17:20
danpbdamnsmith: with container based virt you can do alot of this without needing an agent, so it is desirable not to force an agent into our architecture uneccessarily - that's why i said it was a  virt driver specific detail17:20
damnsmithI know only what xen's agent did in 2006 :D17:20
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damnsmithdanpb: well, I'm saying that for containers, the agent kinda deflates to nothing, and for VMs we provide the agent to do these things17:21
johnthetubaguy1damnsmith: ah, this is a new one, but anyways, lets leave that asside17:21
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damnsmithdanpb: but the api to do them from the outside becomes the same for a vm and a container17:21
rustlebeeso it seems we're morphing from a container proposal to a guest management proposal17:21
danpbdamnsmith: yep, that's what i'd expect17:21
rustlebeeis that right?17:21
danpbrustlebee: i'd say a bit of both really17:22
kramanisnt guest management too broad a mandate for nova?17:22
SpamapSwow this all sounds.. a million miles outside of nova's scope. reaching into containers and vms? really?17:22
danpbrustlebee: i think there's clearly container specific stuff we'll need todo wrt booting instances, but alot of the ongoing mgmt apis are general guest management17:22
s1rpa guest management proposal that also supports the features we need w/ containers seems like biting off a bit more than we can probably chew17:22
johnthetubaguy1going back to containers, can we just agree about creating them, and if that fits the nova "server" abstraction, I think the answer is yes, but I keep changing my mind?17:22
jhopperguest management sounds like something better implemented with heat and other tools17:22
kramanand guest management would also not give the benefit of having a smaller service which just manages containers17:23
zulit does...17:23
damnsmithjohnthetubaguy1: the thing is, containers aren't super useful if treated like VMs17:23
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jhopperjohnthetubaguy1: I think OpSys container instances absolutely fit the Nova model and should be integrated17:23
nelsnelsonIt seems like an additional plugin service _might_ be useful/prudent for some of the finer-grained control aspects of a containers and/or OS service control and guest management.  But I think that the primary aspects of container instance mgmt should be included within the existing Nova set.17:23
danspraggins+1 to jhopper17:23
sharwellAm I correct in assuming that the reason the management items are necessary for containers is there isn't a way to do it within the container itself, e.g. with instances you can SSH and do all these things directly within the VM, but for a container that isn't possible?17:23
johnthetubaguy1damnsmith: maybe, but if you have containers, plus fork, is it just orchestration bits for everything else?17:23
jhopperdamnsmith: I disagree. Containers on bare metal would let you do a great deal and continue to use containers within that container without incurring the cost of the VM17:23
danpbsharwell: not, that's not accurate17:23
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danpbsharwell: it entirely depends on whether you configure your containe to run ssh or not17:24
SpamapSjhopper: that is interesting. At that point, what is different about a container that starts by executing /bin/init vs. one that executes /usr/bin/apache2 ?17:24
damnsmithjhopper: again, you're thinking of containers as VMs17:24
jhopperSpamapS: there really isn't17:24
damnsmithjhopper: the PaaS people want process level control to make them useful17:24
jhopperdamnsmith: I know but containers have to go somewhere and that's what nova odes - manage instances very well17:24
jhopperdamnsmith: I'm proposing that that be nova's realm17:24
jhopperdamnsmith: and let the other orchestrations fall where they may - other service or orchestration tools17:25
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sharwelldanpb: so there are *some* containers for which what I said is true, but not for all containers? and since you want to support containers in general it makes the management API commands necessary?17:25
danpbsharwell: and similarly the same it true for OpSys17:25
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damnsmithjhopper: yeah, and that makes nova suddenly concerned with what is inside the instance, which is crossing a defined line we have today17:25
kramanjhopper: if we can settle on the deltas between nova and container APIs we will have more information to deicde if it should or should not be part of nova17:25
rustlebeekraman: want to go through each API feature you have so far?17:26
damnsmithjhopper: because if we do it for containers, we might as well do it for vms as well, and then..boom17:26
kramanyes please :)17:26
damnsmithcan we start with the interesting ones?17:26
kramandamnsmith: sure17:26
kramanStart with "setting environment"17:27
johnthetubaguy1thats like metadata injection right?17:27
kramanin a VM you can use cloud-init after the VM starts to pull this17:27
rustlebeethat seems logically similar to metadata, yes17:27
kramanbut in a container this needs to be set before the container starts17:27
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rustlebeethat seems doable in Nova today without any fundamental changes IMO17:27
damnsmithso if you can't do this before it starts, then you need an init process in the container,17:27
kramanrustlebee: how so?17:27
damnsmithwhich is what container folks don't want to do17:27
kramandamnsmith: there isnt an init process17:28
hallyn_eh what?17:28
danpbi think the key point here is that you have a different boot setup for the container17:28
kramanthere is only one process which is what is running in the container17:28
rustlebeeyou just ... do it?  in your driver17:28
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damnsmithkraman: right17:28
kramanrustlebee: tried that with docker driver. changeset was rejected17:28
damnsmithrustlebee: we told sam no to that, remember?17:28
SpamapSI don't understand the assertion that metadata must be set before a container starts.17:28
johnthetubaguy1yep, this is a driver thing, assuming LXC+libvirt gets pulled into its own driver, etc17:28
danpbthere is a process declared as the "init"  (it can be any binary) and it has args + environ variables + console connections17:28
rustlebeei do not remember that, heh17:28
hallyn_evenif you're talking about an application container, there is an 'init' in that it is the reaper.17:28
johnthetubaguy1anyways, whats the next one after metadata?17:28
rustlebeedid i say no, too?17:28
jhopperSpamapS: if we're talking about contained processes then there can't be an agent that spins up to set the meta-data17:29
damnsmithhallyn_: we're talking about something that would need to be like cloud-init in a container, which means your application would be pid N not pid 1, which is the problem17:29
jhopperSpamapS: a single container would have a single process and nothing else17:29
kramandanpb: as I said, container dont have an init process like systemd or anything where i can pull those env variable metadata17:29
jhopper^ that17:29
samalbakraman: you're talking about user_data field, not the metadata I guess17:29
SpamapSok, metadata is overloaded17:29
hallyn_damnsmith: the cloutinti thing could go on to exec your init17:29
damnsmithrustlebee: it involved sending arbitrary docker config in a metadata string17:29
hallyn_woudl still be pid 117:29
danpbkraman: when I say  "init" i mean pid==117:29
rustlebeedamnsmith: OK, yeah, not what i had in mind17:30
SpamapSplease specify the actual interface being discussed. I suspect you mean the process environment?17:30
damnsmithhallyn_: right, the need for that thing is undesirable17:30
danpbi don't specifically mean sysvinit/systemd17:30
kramandanpb: no requirement to use pid namespace in container17:30
kramandanpb: may not be pid 117:30
samalbaissues with metadata is that in the scope of docker for example, some metadata would be mandatory to start an instance, is that a problem?17:30
jhopperdanpb: that's doable17:30
rustlebeei meant more like .... same sort of data we expose in config drive or metadata server, but passed in through the env that the container supports17:30
danpbkraman: well ok,  "the first pid"17:30
hallyn_damnsmith: ok, no opinion on that17:30
jhopperhaving a process that initializes the program with metadata like cloud-init works17:30
johnthetubaguy1rustlebee: +117:30
damnsmithrustlebee: we need a structured api for that though right?17:30
kramandanpb: also, containers may be built/provided by other community and not specifically built for openstack. want to allow that usecase17:31
danpbkraman: absolutely17:31
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kramandocker and other container frameworks allow setting ENV outside the image or init process17:31
rustlebeedo we?  we have config drive / metadata server today ... i'm only talking about exposing that same info17:31
danpbkraman: that's why we shouldn't try to force in openstack specific agents/processes17:31
kramanwould like not to loose that functionality17:31
jhopperwe don't have to lose it - we just have to make sure it's in the right place17:31
kramanjhopper: +117:31
kramanbut where is that17:32
damnsmithrustlebee: then nova doesn't support environment variables, and it's a contract between the user and the docker driver, bypassing all of nova in between17:32
kramanin the api I suggested, i add it as part of the create and start apis17:32
johnthetubaguy1the xenapi guest agent updates metadata changes into xenstore, so the callback is already there for metadata changes17:32
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johnthetubaguy1damnsmith: yeah, it sounds bad like that17:32
jhopperso what about having a kickstart process that is integrated with certain parts of OS such that it can reach and set metadata?17:33
damnsmithenvironment is really not the interesting one I would have chosen17:33
danpbyou could just pass env variables as standard named metadata properties against the image, or pass them in with the boot api call17:33
damnsmithI wanted to choose process listing :)17:33
jhopperpid1 kickstart -> container connfig -> launch pid217:33
samalbadamnsmith: process listing support is not critical IMHO17:33
kramanjhopper: pid1 may be apache which cant pull that config17:33
jhopperit's not really an agent so much as a launcher17:33
damnsmithdanpb: so we expose all metadata as envars? sounds dangerous. if not all, then we've got a structured API17:33
jhopperwe control pid117:33
damnsmithsamalba: okay17:33
rustlebeeso what's important?  :)17:34
damnsmithsamalba: what about stdio?17:34
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jhopperbecause I can with containers by simply launching pid1 as my init and then having pid1 launch a process tree under new cgroups (i.e. container)17:34
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samalbaenv is important, volumes are important17:34
samalbaboth can be passed in metadata17:34
rustlebeedefine volumes?17:34
danpbrustlebee: the ability to specify a binary to launch, and provide it cli args + env  + stdio   IMHO is the key first step17:34
samalbarustlebee: it's a mount-bind in docker17:34
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samalbaexpose a dir from the host to the container17:34
jhopperthat worries me in the security sense - which is something we haven't touched on yet17:35
damnsmithjhopper: but it's a common thing people want to do with containers17:35
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jhopperI well understand but then what is the 'host' in this case?17:36
sharwellIf the create container operation does not actually start the container, then you could allow setting items like environment variables after creation or stopping it prior to a start command that operates consistently on any not-currently-started container17:36
jhopperdo we manage the host like a HV?17:36
rustlebeeseems like that could be done using a cinder abstraction17:36
kramanrustlebee: cinder to manage environment?17:36
* johnthetubaguy1 is told he has to run away, needs to be a taxi17:36
samalbayes, containers (at least for docker) are stateless and changes on local fs can be trashed at everyrun, for database the good workflow is to use volumes (to store data outside the container), so it's super important17:36
danpbjhopper: well i don't think its any worse than exposing block devices from a host to the guest which we already do with nova + cinder17:36
rustlebeeno, the volumes part17:36
jhopperdanpb: fair point17:36
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danpbjhopper: its just something you have to deal with carefully as you would any other item17:37
kramancan we finsih off the environment discussion first please :)17:37
kramanjhopper: are you thinking that there is a container service which sets env and then kicks off the driver?17:37
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kramanjhopper: so pid1 would be the container service?17:37
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samalbahonestly using metadata for the docker driver would improve a lot of things. It would just make metadata super important (possibly mandatory) for the user. If it's not a problem, maybe we have a first starting point to improve the support...17:38
jhopperkraman: really the data could be stored anywhere - what matters is that we control the entire process of launching processes. This means that if I have a process acting as pid1 that reaches out to a service for meta-data and env variables, it can set them and then launch the 'container' i.e. the process I want to launch as pid217:38
kramanbut we would need to increase the metadata size17:38
kraman255 is not enough17:38
rustlebeei think jhopper's idea was a cloud-init-like thing that runs as pid1 that talks to the metadata server as needed before moving on to what the user really wanted to run17:38
damnsmithand define a protocol17:38
rustlebeekraman: trivial enough to do17:39
kramanrustlebee: jhopper ah, but that does only 1 container17:39
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rustlebeeright, it would be the way every container launches17:39
jhopperkraman: yes but each container would start with cloud-init17:39
danpbjhopper: having openstack inject its own process/agent into the container startup is a non-starter IMHO17:39
kramancontainers can be scheduled/started/stopped/deleted just like VMs17:39
kramanand we can pack 1000s of them on one host17:39
jhopperdanpb: it's not an agent17:39
damnsmithdanpb: agree17:39
danpbyou need to be able to work with whatever architecture / setup the container technology already has17:39
jhopperdanpb: think of it more like open-rc or systemd17:39
jhopperdanpb: it boots, configs and gets out of the way17:40
danpbyou can't force them to change the way their container architecture works17:40
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danpbjhopper: that's still not going to fly17:40
SpamapSI agree with danpb. Define an interface, not a program.17:40
danpbjhopper: its like saying all VMs have to use an openstack  specific bootloader which in turns loads grub17:40
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SpamapSBefore there was cloud-init, there were bash scripts and curl.17:40
jhopperdanpb: ah, that's fair17:41
rustlebeeOK, so back to how we can feed metadata in via the defined interfaces ..17:41
danpbopenstack has to integrate with whatever architecture already exists for the container/virt technology not the other way around17:41
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SpamapSrustlebee: right, so for network namespaced containers: ec2 metadata service, done. For not network namespaced containers: are we doing that?17:41
* rustlebee tries to think of how an API extension specifically for the environment would look ... and if that's OK or terrible17:41
samalbaSpamapS: network-less containers? is it useful?17:42
damnsmithit would be doable of course, and it'd likely require some changes to metadata, quotas, etc17:42
rustlebeei think we support network-less VMs fwiw17:42
damnsmithand it would only apply to container servers, not any others17:42
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sharwellsamalba: if you have access to stdin/out/err then sure, it could be used for processing17:43
jhoppersamalba: I would have plenty of use for networkless containers ^17:43
SpamapSsamalba: it is but only for a few corner cases.17:43
rustlebeebut if it's generic enough to apply to *all* container services, that could be acceptable17:43
rustlebeeto be clear17:43
kramanSpamapS: cant force user container to query ec2 metadata service. containers like docker set these env before starting the user container17:43
samalbaI see, not me but ok it makes sense :-)17:43
jhopperI'm curious17:43
SpamapSkraman: force is a strong term. Offering it to the container users is enough isn't it?17:44
danpbfor network-less contiainers you could do a config-drive like approach adding a mount or block device to the image17:44
samalbadocker can skip networking for containers anyway, it's supported17:44
rustlebeedanpb: indeed17:44
kramanSpamapS: not really. lots of images out there already which we would like to use17:44
kramanthat xpect env to be set before container start17:44
SpamapSso use them17:44
jhopperwhat if we set the meta-data in the image before the container is booted. is that an option? they're just files on a fs which is far easier to modify than going out and editing a glance image17:44
jhopperwell, I say image but I really mean fs17:44
rustlebeei agree that assuming metadata service solves this is a non-starter17:44
rustlebeethat's just not how people use containers17:44
sharwellIt seems clear that environment variables need to be part of the Container resource prior to the container starting. If that is the case, then whatever harness actually starts the container can access those environment variables at whatever time is appropriate for any specific container technology.17:45
rustlebeequestion is, how would we expose that through nova in a way we find acceptable17:45
rustlebeeso that it's not just a driver-user contract, but a nova feature17:45
SpamapSO-k, so set a subset of these as process environment variables, which the understanding that those are not updatable?17:45
rustlebeethat we can have some consistency on between different container drivers17:45
sharwellIf you implicitly start the container in the POST operation that creates it, then you have to specify the environment variables in the body of the post operation. Does the create operation implicitly start the container?17:46
kramanSpamapS: not updatable after start. but can be updated on nest stop/start cycle17:46
SpamapSok so see that seems reasonable17:47
kramanshould not require to destroy/re-create17:47
kramanif you see the API doc, the only place to update env, bind-mount etc if at start and create times17:47
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samalbaare metadata out of the scope for supporting env after all? (did I miss anything?)17:49
s1rpsharwell: to your point, yes the POST starts the container, but you can set the metadata in the request body17:49
damnsmithsamalba: it sounds like a special extension to standardize the format and abuse metadata as the transport mechanism is the most popular option17:49
rustlebeeso maybe we should switch to bind mounts ... only have 10 minutes left17:50
sharwellThe most flexible way to do it is allow an Update operation on the container to set just the environment variables, and in the documentation state that if the container is currently running, the changes might not take effect until it is stopped and restarted. That provides the option in the future for a user to specify a specific container technology that supports setting the environment variables without restarting the container and without req17:50
jhoppercutoff at: and without re*17:50
samalbadamnsmith: alright, it's just this approach will have to be taken for everything else (not just env), and it's going to be messy at some point :-)17:50
sharwellrequiring changes to the API.17:50
rustlebeesamalba: what is everything else17:50
damnsmithsamalba: I know, I don't like it, I'm saying "most popular" :)17:51
samalbalet me show you17:51
samalbaI would need all of them17:51
samalbaenv is just one property17:51
rustlebeeso we need to address each one individually17:51
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rustlebeewe were only talking about env IMO17:52
SpamapSperhaps an alternate approach: somebody point at actual concrete use cases for the API as defined in the etherpads?17:52
danpbyeah, a bunch of those are already applicable to full OpSys images too17:52
samalbawhat about some kind of property dict field and you leave the driver implement it in the way it wants. Honestly I guess this can differ a lot from a container runtime to another17:52
rustlebeewe can't do stuff like that17:52
damnsmithsamalba: that's a contract between the user and the driver, which I think is uncool17:52
rustlebeesort of defeats the purpose of having a nova abstraction17:52
samalbaI don't think we can streeamline everything17:52
danpbsamalba  imho it is important to standardize stuff whereever possible17:52
rustlebee(to danpb)17:53
samalbawhat are metadata used for then?17:53
danpbwe already have a mess with some existing virt driver apis  eg  get_diagnostics17:53
damnsmithmetadata is for the user17:53
damnsmithuser -> user's instance17:53
damnsmithnot user -> driver17:53
samalbaenv is an end-user thing as well17:53
rustlebeeso we're saying, define some env abstraction in the nova API17:53
jhopperhence the use of metadata17:54
danpbi view these kind of things as similar to the way we can tag glance images with things like    hw_disk_bus=scsi   to say how the vm should boot17:54
rustlebeethat lets the user get info down to their container env17:54
kramani can certainly start on some usecases on the etherpad explaining each of my api calls. would that be helpful?17:54
danpbthere's a bunch of customizations we deal with using glance image properties, which are also desirable to set per-instance via the create API17:54
danpbeg we want to add the ability to pass  kernel command line args  per instance at create time17:55
jhopperthat would be nifty17:55
damnsmith(five minutes)17:55
kramanlets take action items for next meeting17:55
kramanI will work on use cases17:56
danpbalot of the items in samalba's link above would need similar kinda of handling17:56
kramancan someone help me with those?17:56
SpamapSkraman: I think it would help to find the minimum actual required API if the use cases were specified17:56
kramani need a nova person i can bounce them off so i know it makes sense17:56
samalbawell, first action item would be to discard this new service discussion I guess?17:57
SpamapSlike, define 5 things you want to do well. Pick the simplest one and use that as first implementation goal, and the most complex one and use that to guide the design so it doesn't close any doors.17:57
damnsmithkraman: in #openstack-nova, lots of folks can help you, myself included17:57
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kramanwould also like a person from each container virt technology to be involved17:57
rustlebeehang out in the channel :)17:58
SpamapSThere's so much "people want" and "users might" ... need some more "users absolutely will..."17:58
samalbaI'll be involved for Docker obviously17:58
kramani only know docker and libvirt-lxc … and those only from a user point of view17:58
rustlebeeand we can meet in here weekly if you want17:58
zulkraman:  ill help out for lxc (if i dont know) i can find someone who does17:58
SpamapSalso consider #heat for any agent discussions. :)17:58
samalbarustlebee: fine with me17:58
zulkraman:  i can do libvirt-lxc as well17:58
SpamapSinside the instance is a thing we can play with a little more (not much tho. :)17:59
kramancan you update please17:59
rustlebeeok 1 minute17:59
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rustlebeeany final comments?18:00
rustlebeenext Friday is a US holiday, so if we meet again, i'd say in 2 weeks18:00
samalbajust want to thanks everyone, it was helpful18:00
rustlebeewe can follow up on the list about that18:00
rustlebeeand otherwise, #openstack-nova is the place to be :)18:01
rustlebeethanks everyone!18:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"18:01
kramanshould i prefix discussions with [nova] on the list?18:01
openstackMeeting ended Fri Nov 22 18:01:05 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:01
openstackMinutes (text):
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rustlebeekraman: yes18:01
jhoppergood meeting18:01
jhopperty everyone18:01
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