Wednesday, 2013-12-04

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SukhdevGood Morning14:05
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johnthetubaguy#startmeeting XenAPI15:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Dec  4 15:01:11 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is johnthetubaguy. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:01
johnthetubaguyHi everyone15:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'xenapi'15:01
johnthetubaguywho is around for today's meeting?15:01
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matelI'm here15:01
johnthetubaguyso lets get cracking15:01
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johnthetubaguy#topic Blueprints15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:02
johnthetubaguyIcehouse-1 is closing, and Icehouse-2 is starting15:02
johnthetubaguyanyone got any worries or plans with that?15:02
johnthetubaguyany blueprints we need to get in during Icehouse-2?15:03
BobBallnope - but there is a BP that thouveng will want to talk about for I-215:03
BobBallfirst - hi thouveng !15:03
thouvenghello everybody15:03
thouvenghi BobBall15:03
johnthetubaguythouveng: hello! feel free to discuss your blueprint, and give a quick intro15:03
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BobBallJust as a brief intro - thouveng is from who are interested in PCI pass through and potentially vGPU in future15:03
thouvengSo first here is the link:
johnthetubaguyah, cool15:04
thouvengThe goal of this bp is to add support for pci passthrough into xenapi driver15:04
thouvengI see two tasks. First  add the support for updating the status of the compute host15:05
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thouvengand second add the mechanism to attach a pci device to a VM when booting.15:05
BobBallWhat do you mean by status of the host?  The PCI devices that it has available?15:05
johnthetubaguysounds good, I have added them as work items in the blueprint15:06
thouvengThe pci devices that are available for the pci passthrough15:06
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BobBallSo what's the procses for getting this prioritised / cores assigned johnthetubaguy ?15:06
johnthetubaguydoes the current structure in Nova look OK for wiring up for to XenAPI?15:07
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johnthetubaguyBobBall: just target it to a milestone, and it should get reviewed, I am kinda doing that as we type15:07
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thouvengjohnthetubaguy: Yes it seems to have all needed wires15:07
johnthetubaguycool, I will add a note in the blueprint saying we expect no new configuration settings, does that seem fair?15:08
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thouvengYes. For the configuration I have some doubts but I think that I only need to catch pci devices that are passed on the dom0 command line when booting the device.15:09
thouvengSo I think that we don't need extra configuration.15:09
johnthetubaguythouveng: how are you going to wire up with xenapi, does it need a plugin?15:09
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thouvengjohnthetubaguy: Yes exactly.15:10
johnthetubaguythouveng: that sounds right to me, the filtering and grouping that is getting added in nova can be wired up once it droppes15:10
johnthetubaguythouveng: cool, it would be good to get these details in the blueprint, helps set expectations, and review the direction the implementation will take.15:10
johnthetubaguylet me just add that in15:10
thouvengI should be able to add the function into an existing plugin. So I just need to upgrade the plugin version.15:10
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johnthetubaguyBobBall: does this really need a plugin, are we missing some XenAPI functions for this stuff?15:11
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BobBallThe issue is we need to list the PCI devices on the host15:11
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BobBallof course anything on the host can be exposed through XAPI - but XAPI doesn't do that ATM15:12
johnthetubaguyright, I guess that was it, thats OK15:12
BobBallso any use of a plugin could be considered "missing functionality" from XAPI15:12
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BobBallIn particular thouveng is going to look at the boot command line and/or the output of lspci -Dv to see which modules are loaded for the devices15:12
BobBallTo me that feels too specific to be exposed through XAPI15:13
BobBalland that's what plugins are for15:13
johnthetubaguyyeah, probably15:13
johnthetubaguysounds good15:13
BobBallthouveng isn't proposing a plugin that _modifies_ state from dom0 - just reads it15:13
johnthetubaguy… final question15:13
BobBallall the modification can be done through XAPI15:13
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johnthetubaguyBobBall: cool, thats what I remember from looking that this, I have added it to the blueprint15:14
johnthetubaguyso that question15:14
johnthetubaguydo you think the code will be ready during Icehouse-2?15:14
thouvengSorry I don't remember the date for I2?15:14
BobBall23rd Jan15:15
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johnthetubaguyyear, so needs to be up for review early Jan15:15
BobBallor 23th Jan if you want to be pedantic and copy the schedule15:15
johnthetubaguywe can always move things if we have too, but sooner is better15:15
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leifHey quick question, since this is piggy-backing libvirt support, does libvirt handle hot-plugging?15:16
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thouvengThe first part about updating host status will be available.15:16
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johnthetubaguyOK, well thats enough to say I-2 for now, and see how it goes15:16
johnthetubaguyleif: I kinda assume this is attach at boot, not hot-plug right now, but thouveng?15:16
thouvengI hope that the part that attaches the pci device will be ready too but I didn't did that much on that part.15:16
BobBallthink so leif - but I might be missing something from the code.  don't know to be honest.15:16
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thouvengjohnthetubaguy: attach at boot yes. No hotplug.15:17
johnthetubaguyI think its just at boot via the flavour right now, so thats all cool15:17
thouvengjohnthetubaguy: exactly15:17
leifYeah, no problem with level.  Was asking since hotplug support on libvirt what do we return back?15:17
leif"level" - only support at boot.15:18
BobBallno idea leif15:18
leifWanted to know if this is an immediate error or post launch error.15:18
johnthetubaguywell, should just be extra wiring up, its the reporting status I have more worries about15:18
leifno problem, just asking at this poitn.15:18
johnthetubaguyimmediate error?15:18
BobBallActually looking at the code - I might be mistaken15:19
BobBallat least in that changeset15:19
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BobBallthe "hotpluging" only happens during VM lifecycle operations (e.g. reboot, suspend, snapshot)15:19
BobBallso might just be reqs from libvirt for a reboot to work etc15:19
johnthetubaguyyeah, there is no "attach PCI device" api call I know about15:19
johnthetubaguybut there could be I supose15:20
johnthetubaguyanyways, lets not get sidetracked15:20
johnthetubaguyblueprint approved15:20
leifagreed. :-)15:20
BobBallw00t.  So - john - how do we get another core signed up?15:20
johnthetubaguyBobBall: you ask them, or you get me to ask them15:21
johnthetubaguybut to be honest, just see who is interested and adds there name in the first instance15:21
BobBallheh :) I thought this was now a managed process15:21
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johnthetubaguywell, its crowd sourced15:21
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BobBallAh - if it's low priority then that's one thing... I assumed this would be a medium blueprint so needed two cores to sign up before approval or something15:22
johnthetubaguyI see blueprint I want, so I sign up to do them15:22
johnthetubaguyor if I see xenapi ones, I sign up15:22
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johnthetubaguyits low because there are not two cores signed up15:22
johnthetubaguyit can be promoted if another core signs up15:22
johnthetubaguyits nice and loose15:23
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johnthetubaguyasesome stuff, I remember talking about this in San Diego, and never getting time to do it :D15:23
johnthetubaguylets move on..15:23
johnthetubaguy#topic Docs15:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Docs (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:23
johnthetubaguyanyone got any doc things?15:23
BobBallno doc fun this week15:24
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johnthetubaguyyeah, sorry15:26
matelnetwork issues?15:26
johnthetubaguy#topic Bugs & QA15:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Bugs & QA (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:27
johnthetubaguyhow is the tempest work going15:27
* johnthetubaguy looks at matel15:27
BobBallmatel first?15:27
matelSo I am eorking on scripts to create a cloud- ready xenserver15:27
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johnthetubaguyis that "working" now?15:28
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matelit's working, but I am speeding it up - so that we have an image, that could just be launched.15:29
johnthetubaguy… and have we done a tempest run in that cloud based XenServer yet?15:29
BobBallThanks to antonym - tap devices were fixed :)15:29
matelYes, we did smoke.15:29
johnthetubaguyhow "fast" was smoke?15:29
johnthetubaguyand did it work?15:29
matelRan 223 tests in 624.476s15:29
mateltempest.scenario.test_volume_boot_pattern.TestVolumeBootPattern.test_volume_boot_pattern[compute,image,volume]          164.05315:29
mateltempest.scenario.test_snapshot_pattern.TestSnapshotPattern.test_snapshot_pattern[compute,image,network]                  98.14015:29
mateltempest.scenario.test_minimum_basic.TestMinimumBasicScenario.test_minimum_basic_scenario[compute,image,network,volume]   91.12415:29
mateltempest.api.compute.servers.test_server_rescue.ServerRescueTestJSON.test_rescue_unrescue_instance[gate,smoke]            38.82815:29
mateltempest.scenario.test_server_basic_ops.TestServerBasicOps.test_server_basicops[compute,network]                          36.81315:30
mateltempest.thirdparty.boto.test_ec2_volumes.EC2VolumesTest.test_create_volume_from_snapshot[gate,smoke]                     33.70915:30
mateltempest.api.compute.v3.servers.test_server_actions.ServerActionsV3TestXML.test_rebuild_server[gate,smoke]                31.74215:30
mateltempest.api.compute.servers.test_server_rescue.ServerRescueTestXML.test_rescue_unrescue_instance[gate,smoke]             23.96415:30
johnthetubaguyhmm, OK, that could be worse15:30
mateltempest.scenario.test_dashboard_basic_ops.TestDashboardBasicOps.test_basic_scenario[dashboard]                           23.03815:30
mateltempest.api.compute.v3.servers.test_server_actions.ServerActionsV3TestJSON.test_rebuild_server[gate,smoke]               18.98015:30
matelSome really slow ones.15:30
matelSo that's smoke.15:30
matelNo full runs yet15:30
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johnthetubaguyany errors with smoke?15:30
matelBob has fixes to make the test runs more stable.15:30
johnthetubaguyI guess not?15:30
matelThey were a bit unstable.15:30
johnthetubaguyhmm, OK15:30
matelI'll pass it to Bob.15:30
johnthetubaguyso can we wire this up into Zuul now?15:31
matelAs he found the reason.15:31
BobBallI've found some really fun errors in full tempest...15:31
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matelI would need someone, who would help wire it up to that black box.15:31
BobBallRanging from lack of memory leading to compute memory fragmentation leading to VBD plug failures which then clearly fails the tempest test15:31
johnthetubaguyOK, so have you seen the docs and other changes where people added tests? I can help with that15:31
matelI would say, we are getting closer to wire it up, but it's measured in weeks...15:31
johnthetubaguywhy weeks?15:32
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matelBecause there is work to be done, and work needs time.15:32
BobBallLots of unknowns still in exactly how to integrate with the existing zuul stuff15:32
johnthetubaguyagreed, but digging into that, can I help make that go faster, or is it not that kind of work?15:33
BobBalllike exactly where the split between creating a VM and putting it in the nodepool should be etc15:33
matelSure, you can make it faster.15:33
matelI would need to have a description of the zuul entry points.15:33
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matelAFAIK, it's "PREPARE IMAGE" and "RUN DEVSTACK"15:33
johnthetubaguyYup, OK, so I will have a chat with people, but I can come and sit next you tomorrow and help move it forward?15:33
matelAnd we would need to find out how to "customise" the localrc - so that it knows about XenServer.15:34
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johnthetubaguyyup, that all makes sense15:34
matelYes, so I am working on a script, that is producing an image.15:34
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johnthetubaguythat sounds good15:34
johnthetubaguyI am happy to look into Zuul bits if that helps15:34
matelwhich is really the first step - I am close (this week)15:34
johnthetubaguyanyways, we are making good progress15:34
matelOkay, stay in touch15:34
johnthetubaguylets move on15:34
BobBallthose docs are rubbish15:35
BobBallwe were looking at the yesterday :)15:35
matelYes, I am so upset about the lack of documentation.15:35
johnthetubaguyOK, any more on QA15:35
BobBallI know more of the overview than is in the docs just from playing15:35
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BobBallWell we can talk about my tempest fun15:35
johnthetubaguyyou got patches and bugs up?15:35
matelSo if john, you could put together a nice diagram, and put it on the docs page, that would help.15:36
BobBallAs I said - if you give domU too little memory, all sorts of things can go wrong15:36
johnthetubaguymatel: my plan is to read the code15:36
BobBallI've got a patch up for devstack - but you'll need to be aware of it in production15:36
matelSure, and create a diagram as well.15:36
johnthetubaguyBobBall: yes, well, we try not to run out of memory I guess15:36
BobBallif your compute VM is swapping then you might be hitting an issue where VBD plug fails15:36
johnthetubaguywe don't run rabbit in our compute domUs, oddly15:36
BobBallit's not running out of memory that's the problem - it's memory fragmentation that prevents you from allocating a 128k block - which is quite large in memory terms15:36
johnthetubaguybut its a good catch though15:37
BobBallso if you have a long-running and busy compute VM with only just enough memory, you _will_ hit this sooner or later15:37
BobBallI suspect all three of those will apply at Rackspace since I know you squeeze compute's memory to get more VMs on a box15:37
johnthetubaguyyeah, not sure about the headroom though, needs a good luck15:38
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johnthetubaguywhats the fix?15:38
BobBallmore memory15:38
johnthetubaguylol, OK15:38
BobBallor reboot compute to stop fragmentation15:38
johnthetubaguyyeah, thats possible15:38
BobBallbut who knows how often you have to reboot15:38
BobBallparallel tempest was hitting it within 60 minutes15:38
johnthetubaguynever under normal operation, but hey15:38
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BobBallAnyway - next fun - we already synchronize on VBD.plug, but we have to synchronise on VBD.unplug too (both at the same time) otherwise we get the same random racy failures15:39
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johnthetubaguyAh, yes, I did ask about that at the time, I guessed we might need that15:39
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BobBalland there are some weird things I'm looking at ATM but I don't have a solution for15:40
johnthetubaguycool, any more?15:40
BobBalltimeouts with volumes15:40
BobBallthe really annoying thing is that full tempest does pass15:40
johnthetubaguyoh, is that the old kernel issue with iSCSI on the same box again?15:40
BobBallso it's timeouts / races that we're fighting against15:40
BobBallMate fixed that15:41
johnthetubaguybut it could be related?15:41
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BobBallI doubt it at this point15:41
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johnthetubaguyyou get deadlocks in tap disk, is that related?15:41
BobBallthe iscsi issue is definitely mitigated15:41
BobBallthere may be other deadlocks - but not that one15:41
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BobBallthat one is mitigated by adding a new memcopy in the process15:42
BobBallif we're still seeing deadlocks then it's a different issue15:42
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matelLet me dig up the change...15:42
johnthetubaguyOK, no worries15:42
johnthetubaguyjust checking the things that came to mind15:42
BobBall(the memcopy isn't actually real - it's about changing the IO mode used by the SR)15:42
johnthetubaguycool, making progress though, which is good to see15:43
johnthetubaguyso, in other news...15:43
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johnthetubaguyI plan to use all your good work, and copy and paste it to run cloud cafe tests, assuming we keep using those15:44
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johnthetubaguybut thats just for context15:44
johnthetubaguy#topic Open Discussion15:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:44
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johnthetubaguyany more for any more?15:44
BobBallcan't for the life of me think what it was15:45
BobBallbut I was going to say something15:45
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matelI'm okay, I just need zuul- capable people.15:46
matelto talk to.15:46
BobBallJust ask on -infra15:46
BobBallthey usually answer15:46
matelOh, yes.15:46
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BobBalland they only charge £5 per question15:46
BobBallquite reasonable15:46
johnthetubaguyyeah, so I am happy to take on the zuul integration with you if that helps?15:46
matelLet's find entry points, that's good enough.15:47
johnthetubaguywhile you make the stand-a-lone script stable, and Bob works on getting tempest running stabley15:47
johnthetubaguyyup, I am happy to work on that15:47
BobBalljohnthetubaguy: other question - while we're here - guy in #openstack-dev asking a question I don't know the answer to...15:47
matelokay, sounds like a plan.15:47
BobBallhi any idea why two rules are used instead of using single rule line number 137,147
BobBallthought you might know :)15:48
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johnthetubaguynope sorry, I am the wrong guy to ask about that stuff15:48
BobBallI guessed it was different implementations of ARP - some using the host IP and others using as the response15:48
BobBallah well15:48
johnthetubaguyyeah, its deep in the niggles of network land, I know the basics not the details there :(15:49
johnthetubaguycool, are we all done?15:49
johnthetubaguya good meeting today I feel, thank you all for your hard work!15:49
BobBallI know a fair bit, particularly around that tenant isolation, but that one had me stumped...15:49
BobBallheh - you're welcome?15:50
johnthetubaguy...I was meeting more generally, not the hard work of the meeting15:50
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johnthetubaguyany more questions?15:50
BobBallwhat's the deal with this furby boom thing?  I hear it's a popular xmas toy but I just don't get it15:51
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BobBallmaybe I'm too old...15:51
BobBallhmmm - do you think that question is off-topic?15:51
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johnthetubaguyI never get these crazes15:52
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johnthetubaguythey always seem to pass me by15:52
johnthetubaguybut maybe I am just tight15:52
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:52
BobBallI think I'm going to be glad that furby boom passes me by...15:52
openstackMeeting ended Wed Dec  4 15:52:45 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:52
openstackMinutes (text):
leifBobBall: I could be wrong about this, but we had an issue where VM to VM arps were not working when in the same HV.15:52
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BobBallI think that's why you need one of them (not sure which one) - but I didn't know why we needed two!15:53
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leifBobBall: My understanding is that the OVS was not replicating the ARP correctly back to other VMs in the Same VM.15:54
BobBallthat makes sense15:54
leifsecond "VM" -> HV.15:54
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BobBallthanks leif15:54
leifBobBall: I'm going on being "in the room" when an issue was worked, but that looks like the same issue.15:54
leifBobBall: no problem.  They should put something in the comment to be more explicit.15:55
BobBallIt sounds highly plausible.  Therefore I'm going to use proof by assertion that it's correct.15:55
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BobBallleif: one more q coming your way in pm15:56
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jgriffith#startmeeting cinder16:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Dec  4 16:01:11 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'cinder'16:01
jgriffithhey hooooooooooooooo16:01
jgriffitheharney: morning sir16:01
kmartinhello all16:01
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zhiyanhi all16:01
jungleboyjmorning all.16:01
jgriffithnice... prompt attendance this morning16:01
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jgriffithjoel-coffman: hola16:02
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* jgriffith is actuallyon time16:02
jgriffithyoooo... DuncanT16:02
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jgriffithalright... there's winston-d let's roll16:02
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jungleboyjHey hey, the gang's all here.  Except avishay.  :-(16:02
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jgriffith#topic multi-attach16:03
*** openstack changes topic to "multi-attach (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:03
kmartinand hemna :(16:03
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sgordonso i discussed this with zhiyan last week and attempted to frame a wiki page summarizing all the previous discussions on this16:03
sgordonand in particular highlighting outstanding issues/questions:16:03
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avishayHi all16:04
sgordonso in particular the two main ones zhiyan highlighted were finalizing the use of the volume and attachment status fields16:04
zhiyanavishay: hi16:04
sgordonand working out how to implement multi-attach as an extension to the core attachment functionality16:04
jungleboyjthat was fast avishay :-)16:04
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avishayJungleboyj on my phone :-P16:05
sgordonso per the wiki, volume attachment would be attached/detached and attachment status would be in-use / attaching / detaching16:06
DuncanTI'd also add 'Are there any data consistency requirements / expectations at all for multi-attach?' to the list of unresolved questions16:06
sgordonDuncanT, right - so i think the expectation is that it's an explicit choice to share a volume16:06
sgordonin the shared-volume blueprint it was suggested a volume must be explicitly marked "shareable"16:06
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sgordonand then it's expected that the consistency requirements are handled at the application / guest level16:07
jgriffithsgordon: I agree with that16:07
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sgordonwhat you of course want to avoid is any situation where someone could accidentally multi-attach16:07
jgriffithsgordon: so personally this wiki is helpful IMO16:07
DuncanTsgordon: I get that, but I mean, once a volume is marked as shared and attached shared, at the block level, what are the consistency expectations of the user? Same as an iSCSI mount? Less that that? Undefined?16:07
avishaySounds reasonable16:08
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jgriffithDuncanT: not sure I'm following you on that?16:08
sgordonDuncanT, talking to the specific cluster app i looked at there is more that could be built on multi-attach to support clustered apps16:08
jgriffithDuncanT: "consistency expectations of the user"16:08
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sgordonDuncanT, in particular yes improving the chain so that iSCSI reservations could be used16:08
sgordon(for example)16:08
DuncanTjgriffith: If I have it attached to vms A and B, and I do a write on B and a read on A of the same sectors, what should the result be under what circumstances?16:09
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jgriffithDuncanT: that's what I thought you might be getting at :)16:09
jgriffithDuncanT: I've always said consumer beware or you're screwed16:09
jgriffithmaybe that's not sufficient16:09
sgordonjgriffith, +116:09
DuncanTjgriffith: I'm fine with saying 'Same as iSCSI LVM', but I'd like it said16:09
caitlin56DuncanT: that's a dangerous road to go down unless you stick with absolutely minimal guarantess. Before long the volume is a posix file.16:09
jgriffithbut I don't want Cinder to have any responsibility above the block device layer16:09
jgriffithie FS, consistency etc16:10
jgriffithif that means it's too "icky" to do multiple R/W so be it16:10
DuncanTI'm fine with minimal guarantees, I'd just like it stated early what they are16:10
avishaySyncjronization must be in the guests16:10
* jungleboyj just assumed multi-attach was ReadOnly.16:10
jgriffithDuncanT: that's fair16:10
caitlin56Stating what you cannot rely upon is a good idea.16:10
kmartinDuncanT: jgriffith I'm pretty sure the Hypervisor help in this area16:11
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jgriffithjungleboyj: we've talked about that approach16:11
avishayKmartin. How so?16:11
caitlin56Readonly is certainly simpler than shared write.16:11
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sneelakantansgordon: what's the definition of a "read-only" attachment? Does that mean instance is not allowed to write anything to the volume, or that the written data is not persisted?16:11
sgordoncaitlin56, indeed - i was also wondering how this would impact snapshotting (for example)16:11
jungleboyjIt is cool if shared write can work, but sounds scary.16:11
kmartinavishay: This is a common use case for clusters in ESX land16:11
sgordonsneelakantan, the former - but i believe that it has to be enforced by nova16:11
DuncanTFilesystems that can use multi-attach, like GFS, have certain requirements of the underlying storage. If you aren't a simple iSCSI mount, those requirements become important16:11
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sgordonsneelakantan, cinder simply stores whether the attachment is r/o or r/w16:12
jgriffithkmartin: yeah, but they have the advantage of using their FS and controlling everything16:12
caitlin56sgordon: that depends on who does the snapshot. ZFS won't have any problem.16:12
avishayKmartin ok16:12
kmartinjgriffith: correct16:12
jgriffithAnyway....  DuncanT makes a good point16:12
sgordoncaitlin56, right - so i think if we just say it's driver specific that's ok - just need to list which ones do/dont support it16:12
jgriffithwe DEF need to CAREFULLY and document the risks16:13
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sgordonjgriffith, yes and that's part of my intent with the wiki as well16:13
jgriffithand make sure we have an excellent ref use case doc16:13
sgordoni wanted to more explicitly document the design for this16:13
jgriffithsgordon: yeah... very cool16:13
caitlin56jgriffith: agreed. ANd that warning should include "if you don't like this uncertainty, use a file system."16:13
sgordonas i know it's been discussed a lot over at least the last 12 months16:13
jgriffithsgordon: thanks for that16:13
jgriffithsgordon: :)16:13
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avishayA EULA should pop up when you try and make you agree to terms :-)16:14
DuncanTAn example documented use-case would be really useful16:14
bswartzavishay: lol16:14
sgordonDuncanT, ok - i think i have the details for that16:14
sgordonDuncanT, will likely mean some other blueprints as well, probably on nova :)16:14
jgriffithDuncanT: +116:14
avishayDuncan +116:14
kmartinyes, thanks sgordon for pullind this together16:14
jgriffithDuncanT: TBH that's something I think we could improve on ALOT overall16:14
caitlin56I think we should state that generally volumes have a single writer. We're allowing you to do multiple, but it is up to you to get them to coordinate as though they were a single writer.16:15
DuncanTjgriffith: Definitely.16:15
DuncanTcaitlin56: 'coordinate' has no meaning without a /lot/ more detail16:15
sgordonso in the example i am looking at traditionally it would use SCSI reservations16:15
sgordonbut to support that we also need virtio-iscsi support in nova, and NPIV support16:16
sgordonnot just multi-attach16:16
caitlin56Duncant: what 'coordiation' is required is dependent on your specific application.16:16
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sgordoni'd be interested in the way other solutions co-ordinate this as well though16:16
DuncanTcaitlin56: It is also totally and utterly dependant on the facilities provided by the block device16:16
kmartinsgordon: we'll need Fibre Channel as well16:16
DuncanTcaitlin56: When flushes and barriers happen and such16:16
sgordonkmartin, +116:16
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kmartinsgordon: we can help in the FC area16:17
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caitlin56DuncanT: yes, but we don't tell people how to write multi-processor safe programs. We just tell them it is their problem.16:17
sgordonok - so i think that gives me plenty to follow up on in terms of detail16:17
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sgordonto take to IRC/list16:17
jgriffithsgordon: thanks for putting this together16:17
jgriffithsgordon: maybe we'll actually move forward on it in I :)16:18
sgordonany comments on how this would be implemented as an extension vs the core attachment functionality?16:18
DuncanTcaitlin56: Actually we also have very clear memory barrier instructions with clearly understood semantics, *then* tell people it is there problem16:18
kmartinsgordon: jgriffith +116:18
sgordonzhiyan probably has a better understanding of I as to what that means16:18
jgriffithit seems we're all finally starting to kind of agree on doing it16:18
avishaySgordon thanks!16:18
jgriffithor at least giving up fighting about it :)16:18
sgordonwell i think what's important, and what i want to do16:18
sgordonis continue driving the discussion forward and documenting any decisions16:18
winston-dsgordon: virtio-scsi or virtio-iscsi?16:18
sgordonit will help not just with implementation but user docs later as well16:19
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caitlin56sgordon: I am at a loss as to how to do multi-attach while keeping the ucrrent volume status.16:19
sgordon(i come from a docs background)16:19
* DuncanT will be happy to have a demo workload that is expected to work at the point we call ourselves 'done'... that will clear up most of my issues16:19
DuncanTcaitlin56: See the wiki page for ideas16:19
kmartinshould we talk about the second issue on multi-attach16:19
jgriffithDuncanT: or create a whole bunch of new ones :)16:19
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jgriffithkmartin: probably16:19
kmartinextension vs. core16:20
DuncanTjgriffith: Almost certainly both ;-)16:20
sgordonkmartin, +116:20
zhiyanjgriffith: you know we talked this on summit, but there's no conclusion. iirc team like make multi-attach as an extension in cinder but core16:20
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jgriffithzhiyan: :(16:20
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jgriffithzhiyan: yes this get's ugly IMO16:21
zhiyanjgriffith: but currently i don't think cinder is ready to support a separated extension structure.16:21
sgordonyes, so to me this is probably the more pressing issue as a blocker16:21
sgordonwe can work through use cases, detail etc. as a team16:21
jgriffithIf we go with the "no extension modifies tables" it makes this (and other) extensions pretty much not worth the trouble16:21
jgriffiththingee: you were working on a proposal for something outside of the DB for persistent data?16:22
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sgordonwinston-d, virtio-scsi sorry16:22
thingeejgriffith: yes16:22
thingeeI do apologize but I didn't find time last week to write something up16:22
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jgriffiththingee: no worries16:23
jgriffiththingee: my question is based on the work you've done....16:23
zhiyanavishay: yes, iiuc, it's admin_metadata .. but is it?16:23
thingeeI would like new extensions to assume they have their own table though16:23
winston-dthingee: it was thanks giving, you were not supposed to work. :)16:23
jgriffiththingee: is it worth the extra effort rather than creating a table? :)16:23
jgriffiththingee: Oh?16:23
jgriffiththingee: now I'm confused16:23
jgriffithI'm not sure about shoving everything under the sun in to admin_meta16:24
jgriffiththat could get very ugly and ineffecient I think16:24
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zhiyanjgriffith: +116:24
thingeeI mentioned in the last summit that we could think of extensions as a package. Installing it would introduce new tables, modifications to existing workflows on the api and manager, new rest api extension, etc16:24
caitlin56Tracking the state of multiple dynamic attachments doesn' t sound like "admin" metadata to me.16:24
jgriffiththingee: ohhh... sorry I think I missed that part16:25
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jgriffiththingee: that kinda solves the buld of the issues here IMO16:25
thingeejgriffith: Don't think so. We had disagreements about this16:25
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jgriffiththingee: well.. I think I might have "misunderstood" what you were saying16:25
thingeeor at least I was told this wasn't worth time to spend on16:25
DuncanTcaitlin56: The term 'admin' here just means 'not seen directly by the user' and is a historical oddity16:26
jgriffith#topic extensions and the DB16:26
*** openstack changes topic to "extensions and the DB (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:26
avishayNeed to list pros and cons but could be cool16:26
jgriffithSince I may have snarled this conversation at the summit without knowing what was being proposed16:26
jgriffithlet's see if we can figure something out16:26
thingeeI'd like to write up a proposal and then have that be changed over to the dev docs to assist new people.16:27
jgriffithIUC the proposal is that only CORE functionality modifies existing DB tables?16:27
DuncanTLimiting extentions to their own table(s) seems like a totally reasonable compromise to me16:27
kmartinshould with give thingee a little time to write up his proposal and then talk about it16:27
jgriffithDuncanT: I agree... somehow I missed that part of the disucssion in HK16:27
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jgriffithor didn't understand it...16:27
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thingeejgriffith: right, extensions should avoid modifying the existing table. The problem with that though is you end up with a lot of joins16:27
DuncanTjgriffith: I don't think that *was* the discussion in HK16:27
thingeeDuncanT, jgriffith: oh it was. the last informal session16:28
thingeeI mentioned a new table, but people brought up the issue of joins16:28
jgriffiththingee: I believe you :)16:28
DuncanTjgriffith: The joins problem was what I pointed out, then we got very circular and decided to give Thingee time to solve it all ;-)16:28
glenng*remembers that*16:28
jgriffithDuncanT: that sounds like us ;)16:28
* thingee was not talking jgriffith's dog16:29
guitarzanso the idea of "extensions can slightly modify core behavior" is a non starter?16:29
zhiyanthingee: yes we did16:29
guitarzanadmin actions reset status for example16:29
jgriffithguitarzan: good example16:29
DuncanTguitarzan: They can only via defined points in the task flows was a proposal16:29
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jgriffithguitarzan: however that's modify an existing column... different16:30
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caitlin56So how is the state of a shared volume reflected in tables for those who did not install the extension?16:30
guitarzanjgriffith: oh? I didn't catch that16:30
guitarzanjgriffith: carry on then :)16:30
jgriffithguitarzan: the idea was modifying the table schema should be avoided16:30
winston-dshould we revisit all existing extensions and promote some of them to be core?16:30
guitarzanjgriffith: ahh, hopefully there aren't many gripes against that16:30
thingeewinston-d: that's a whole other debate16:30
jgriffithwinston-d: yes we should16:30
jgriffithbut not today :)16:31
thingeejgriffith: thank you16:31
winston-djgriffith: :)16:31
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jgriffithso the "join" problem does have potential to be an issue16:31
jgriffithbut this is what I ws getting at (I think) in HK16:31
jgriffithin a lot of cases it's probably NOT going to be a problem16:32
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jgriffithand I think that we should consider this sort of thing on a case by case basis16:32
jgriffithI understand the concern and need to keep from going crazy here16:32
DuncanTI think we can wait intil an instance where it comes up and worry about it then... we aren't carving this rule in stone, we can revisit it16:32
sgordoncaitlin56, which state(s) in particular were you thinking about?16:32
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jgriffithI'm just not sure if hard line rules really are a good thing in terms of progress16:33
sgordoncaitlin56, to someone who doesnt have that extension whether it is shareable or not doesn't seem interesting to me, it's just another volume?16:33
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caitlin56Like whether the volume is attached?16:33
sgordoncaitlin56, same as today no?16:33
jgriffithsgordon: +116:33
DuncanTsgordon: +116:33
avishayThingee: i can implement replication by modifying the create-volume flow16:33
avishayThingee: want to try your idea with it?16:34
thingeeavishay: the idea would be the extension itself would inject a task into the existing flow16:34
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jgriffiththingee: I really like/d that idea16:34
avishayYes...though i would have to replace a task too16:34
jgriffithand I think for 90+% of our extensions that works16:34
avishayI think its a really neat idea16:35
jgriffithok... I don't want to get too in the weeds16:35
jgriffithavishay: thingee it would be cool if we worked on something with replication as a first pass at trying this16:35
sgordonjgriffith, yeah i think that gives me enough in mind to progress multi-attach anyway - zhiyan would you agree?16:36
jgriffithI was hoping we could more clearly define what we want to do here in terms of policy16:36
jgriffithie extensions/db etc16:36
thingee#action thingee writes a proposal and possibly example code to demonstrate a new ext. with table and injecting tasks16:36
kmartinagree with jgriffith, this should stop us from moving forward on the multi-attach16:36
zhiyansgordon: yes, thanks. will follow this up later16:36
jgriffithSo... I want to see if I have this right (this time)16:36
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jgriffithWe want to move forward trying to behave such that:16:37
jgriffith1. Extensions shouldn't mess with schema of existing tables16:37
jgriffith2. Extensions should inject into taskflow16:37
jgriffith3. Extensions that need DB info should use their own "new" tables in the DB16:37
jgriffithIs that pretty much accurate?16:37
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jgriffithOk, I think I'm good with saying we "try" that16:38
jgriffithanybody have objections to the idea?  Or questions?16:38
zhiyanjgriffith: thingee: sounds good, but i'm thinking does this can work well for multi-attach particular case. i'm thinking we need modify current volume table scheme..16:38
kmartinsounds good16:38
jgriffithzhiyan: well that's kinda the point16:39
sgordonzhiyan, so i think the key question for us is where to store that a volume is shareable16:39
sgordonzhiyan, sounds like "elsewhere"16:39
jgriffithzhiyan: maybe we can be creative and do it differntly without modifying existing schema16:39
sgordonyes, i need to consider that some more16:39
jungleboyjjgriffith: Sounds good.16:39
zhiyanjgriffith: humm...i will think about it..16:39
jgriffithsgordon: I hate to say this but I would use types :)16:39
caitlin56But if you store the fact that a volume is shareable "Elsewhere" how does a compute node know that it cannot take exclusive ownership of a volume?16:40
avishayNeed an array of instance ids, no?16:40
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sgordonjgriffith, that is actually probably a cleaner suggestion than anything else :)16:40
guitarzanit seems more like attachments become a first class citizen16:40
DuncanTcaitlin56: To be decided.16:40
jgriffithsgordon: and honestly that's what types are for IMO16:41
winston-dcaitlin56: compute node can query cinder ?16:41
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sgordonreally the compute node is told it's got r/o or r/w, even in multi attach it assumes it has ownership16:41
caitlin56winston-d: using which schmea? I think you end up addig an extra state enum to the "core" at the minimum.16:41
kmartinsorry, I need to run.16:41
sgordonit's the application / guest that handles that it's not exclusive16:41
jgriffithsgordon: caitlin56 that's easier to solve atually16:41
DuncanTOr the multi-attach can inject into the flow and include it in the connection data that it is possibly shared16:41
jgriffithsgordon: caitlin56 there's provider/connection info that I added16:41
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jgriffithkmartin: no worries... catch ya later16:42
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sgordonso i dont think it's insurmountable16:42
jgriffithOk... we need to save time for ACL16:42
jgriffithI think we all kinda of agree on this16:42
sgordonthe direction we covered here is definitely helpful in terms of moving the design forward16:42
jgriffithit could be challenging but I think it's doable16:42
jgriffithand I think it's efficient16:42
jgriffithif it ends up being something that is insurmountable we can look at an exception process16:42
jgriffithbut we should at least try16:42
jgriffitheverybody cool with that?16:43
sgordonso i will try and update the wiki to reflect what we've discussed and then we can continue on list etc16:43
jgriffithsgordon: sounds good to me16:43
winston-dyup, please try not to mess up with existing schema16:43
DuncanTsgordon: +116:43
zhiyansgordon: thanks for working on that16:43
jgriffithwinston-d: :)16:43
* sgordon believes thingee put an action on the more formal proposal for extensions16:43
sgordoni will cover the multi-attach wiki16:43
jgriffithsgordon: yes he did16:43
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jgriffithok... I feel better about that subject now :)16:43
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sgordon#action sgordon to update multi-attach wiki with today's comments/concerns and further discussion on list16:44
jgriffith#topic ACL16:44
*** openstack changes topic to "ACL (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:44
jgriffithalatynskaya: ping16:44
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alatynskayayes, hello)16:44
aguzikovahello again16:44
jgriffithalatynskaya: aguzikova hey there16:44
* rushiagr trudges into the meeting, feeling sorry for being late the umpteenth time16:45
aguzikovawe've added more details here:16:45
aguzikovaand we have a suggestion to hold weekly separate meetings for ACL16:45
aguzikovais this a good idea?16:46
jgriffithaguzikova: the separate meetings?16:46
jgriffithaguzikova: probabaly/maybe16:46
DuncanTI worry that separate meets will miss feedback from people who only have a peripheral interest but a good eye for spotting problems16:46
alatynskayaif there would be a lot of questions to design16:46
jgriffithaguzikova: guitarzan DuncanT thingee I have a question about the whole idea in general though....16:47
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jgriffithSo IMO this is a neat feature for sure... but what I'm wondering is "is it useful"16:47
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jgriffithis there demand for something like this?16:47
jgriffithor are we solving a problem that doesn't really exist?16:47
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* jgriffith hears crickets16:49
DuncanTWe've had questions about it, and examples of why customers want it, but I'm not sure it is a huge thing.16:49
aguzikovaACL is a good foundation for flexible read-only-volumes, public-volumes features16:49
guitarzanI haven't heard much16:49
caitlin56jgriffith: it might be a "real issue" once we have multi-attach.16:49
alatynskayajgriffith: is the current realisation of public volumes  throug admin metadata is quite ok?16:49
alatynskayaaguzikova: +116:49
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alatynskayaacl is flexible enough16:49
jgriffithaguzikova: that makes sense16:49
alatynskayaand also for multi-attach16:50
jgriffithaguzikova: I wonder if there's a different approach that could be taken here though16:50
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jgriffithsomething a little less complex16:50
thingeeI know I led the original speaker down the road of it being a core feature, but I think after a later discussion I changed my vote.16:50
rushiagrACLs would definitely be neater16:50
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DuncanTThe usecases we were provided are much more basic than multi-attach... just about stopping most uses inside a tenant being able to do dangerous things16:50
jgriffithlike maybe doing something in keystone16:50
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thingeeI do apologize about that16:50
jgriffithDuncanT: like what?16:51
DuncanTjgriffith: e.g. volume transfer16:51
jgriffithDuncanT: disable a user from being able to xfr?  Why is that dangerous though?16:51
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winston-dDuncanT: tech support doesn't need admin privilege?16:52
jgriffithsorry... I shouldn't side track the discussion16:52
caitlin56DuncanT: and can you really prevent it, if the user can read the volume, can't they do anything with what they read?16:52
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DuncanTcaitlin56: Different problem space16:52
jgriffithSo my concern is that doing this breaks down a lot of the tenant security things that we have in place16:53
jgriffithI'm concerned that this would introduce all sorts of security issues16:53
DuncanTjgriffith: My usecases are all subtractive from the current tenant roles, not adative like public volumes16:53
jgriffithunless it was a pure extension that could be completely disabled16:53
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caitlin56jgriffith: I also like the very simple implied ACL that each volume is controlled by the Tentant Admin that owns it.16:54
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jgriffithDuncanT: seems odd to take away any of the things that we expose16:54
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jgriffithDuncanT: but you're the SP not me16:54
guitarzanDuncanT: we would probably use rbac for the "limit transfer" case16:54
guitarzanand not necessarily do it per volume16:54
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guitarzanbut that's kind of a guess16:55
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alatynskayacaitlin56:  in our case Tentant Admin is volume owner and it can manage his volume16:55
jgriffithI'd like to hear other peoples thoughts/concerns about ACL16:55
DuncanTguitarzan: RBAC is fine but only the SP can define the roles16:55
jgriffithin gernal16:55
guitarzanDuncanT: that's true16:55
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DuncanTguitarzan: That enables some things but ACLs have the potential to be way more flexible16:55
guitarzanDuncanT: totally agree16:55
wolsenit seems that ACLs are generally a good thing, but I suspect some place like keystone may be a better place as there's probably a more general use case across the board than just cinder volumes requiring ACLs16:56
caitlin56alatynskaya: I think that's the point jgriffith is hinting at, without multi-attach do we need any ACLs other than tracking the volume owner?16:56
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jgriffithwolsen: I sort of had the same though, until it was suggested folks may only want to limit certain operations16:56
jgriffithin which case it becomes more complex to go tht route and you might as well put it all in Cinder16:56
jgriffithDuncanT: guitarzan the "flexibility" is kinda what concerns me16:57
wolsenjgriffith: agreed that it becomes more complex that way, but when looking at the bigger picture I think it might be painful having x implementations of ACLs across the full stack16:57
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jgriffithDuncanT: guitarzan does swift or anybody else have this concept?16:57
guitarzanswift does acls16:57
jgriffithwolsen: agreed16:57
DuncanTSwift does, yes16:57
jgriffithnotmyname: LOL16:58
guitarzannotmyname: has a ping on swift :)16:58
winston-dDuncanT: so the 'virtual private cloud' that AWS has, is it an example of RBAC within account/tenant?16:58
notmynameindeed :-)16:58
alatynskayaand glance also has16:58
jgriffithalatynskaya: good point16:58
DuncanTwinston-d: I think so, yes16:58
* jgriffith needs to look at swifts implementation16:58
DuncanTwinston-d: And a pretty good example complex usecase16:58
guitarzanglance has acls?16:58
* notmyname is available for questions16:58
* jgriffith is going to type in "swift" all day to bug notmyname 16:58
* guitarzan looks it up16:58
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zhiyanalatynskaya: glance just using backend store's acl, like swift16:59
jgriffithwe're going to run out of time16:59
DuncanTswift's implementation has issues too... you need to touch keystone to add new combinations, like "add only, no delete or over-write"16:59
caitlin56Cinder ACLs should be simpler than Swift ACLs, but folloiwng the Swift pattern makes sense.16:59
guitarzanI think we might need to clarify in tenant acl vs out of tenant acls?16:59
jgriffithalatynskaya: aguzikova would you be available to talk in #cinder for a few minutes?16:59
hartsocksif you need a few minutes, we're probably going to run short today anyway.16:59
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aguzikovajgriffith, yes,of course17:00
jgriffithcaitlin56: why would they be simpler?  You're either implementing them or not IMO17:00
jgriffithLet's all move over to #cinder and give up the room17:00
jgriffith#endmeeting cinder17:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:00
openstackMeeting ended Wed Dec  4 17:00:33 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:00
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caitlin56jgriffith: there are more things you can do with an object than with a volume.17:00
openstackMinutes (text):
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hartsockswho's around?17:01
skolathuHi all17:01
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hartsockslet's hold a minute so see if more folks show up for VMwareAPI17:02
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hartsocksokay … let's get going then.17:03
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hartsocks#startmeeting VMwareAPI17:03
openstackMeeting started Wed Dec  4 17:03:53 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hartsocks. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'vmwareapi'17:03
hartsocksgreetings stackers!17:04
hartsocksLet's go around and introduce ourselves since we've not done that in a bit.17:04
hartsocksJust your name is fine since I don't know everyone's handles.17:04
hartsocksI'll start:17:04
hartsocksShawn Hartock17:04
dimsDavanum Srinivas17:04
rgerganovRadoslav Gerganov17:04
tjonesTracy Jones17:05
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hartsocksFirst on the agenda...17:06
hartsocksBugs, then Blueprints, then open discussion...17:06
hartsocks#topic bugs17:06
*** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:06
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hartsocksWho has a bug we *need* to look at?17:06
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tjonesthe next havana freeze is tomorrow - so any bug we want backported needs to move today17:07
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hartsocks#link bugs for backport?17:08
hartsocksHmm… maybe that's not a good report.17:08
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tjonesyeah that's the triage report17:08
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rgerganovI guess we want to backport
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x27bc110>17:08
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1255609 in nova "VMware: possible collision of VNC ports" [Low,In progress]17:08
rgerganovthis is the VNC security issue17:09
tjonesi'd say the stats issue17:09
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tjonesthe postgres issue17:09
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1195139 in openstack-vmwareapi-team "vmware: error trying to store hypervisor_version as string in using postgresql" [Critical,In progress]17:10
hartsocksI've targeted bug/1255609 to i117:10
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1252827 in openstack-vmwareapi-team "VMWARE: Intermittent problem with stats reporting" [Critical,In progress]17:10
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tjoneshartsocks: do you think that one is done enough to ask for help from the core reviewers to get this in so we can backport?17:11
hartsockshmm… bug/1252827 is set for i2 … why?17:11
hartsockswhich one? bug/1252827 the stats bug?17:11
hartsocksRussell bumped us from i1 to i2.17:12
hartsocksLooks like that happened 18 hours ago.17:12
russellbbecause iccehouse-1 deadline was yesterday17:12
russellbit's frozen now17:12
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hartsockswell then. we're just late to the party.17:13
tjonesok then it looks like 1195139 and 1229994 should get backported asap17:13
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tjonesto make havana freeze17:13
rgerganovwhen is the havana freeze?17:13
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hartsockshavana stable branch freeze was yesterday.17:14
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tjonesarg - i thought it was tomorrow17:14
tjonesmissed the board17:14
hartsocksI knew there was a release on the 12th ...17:14
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hartsocksWe should probably dedicate somebody to watch those stable release deadlines.17:15
hartsocksI de-nominate myself.17:15
rgerganovdoes that mean that we can't get anything backported to havana?17:15
tjonesi'll do it :-(17:15
tjonesi thought the freeze was 1 week before not 1 week and 1 day :-(17:15
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hartsocksit's probably timezone things.17:15
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tjonesoh that :-D17:15
hartsocksIt's tomorrow in Hong Kong :-)17:16
tjonesrussellb: is the freeze 1 week before release in UTC?17:16
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tjoneswill be good to know since i just nominated myself to watch this17:17
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hartsocksThe i1 deadline is 12/5 which is tomorrow.17:17
tjonesyeah that icehouse - i need havana too17:17
hartsocksThe thing we weren't watching was the havana-stable release schedule.17:18
tjonesyes i have the schedule from that link - i just missed that there is a freeze (duh)17:18
hartsocksSo, anything in flight now we need to target for Jan 16th.17:19
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hartsocksI've not been beating the drums lately.17:19
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tjonesok we missed the next havana (bummer).  lets take a quick look at anything we have pending for tomorrow (17:19
hartsocksI'll have to get back on that :-)17:19
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tjonescan't type today17:19
hartsockstjones: so I'll watch IceHouse and you can watch Havana Stable?17:20
tjonessure (and grizz)17:20
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hartsocksnot to give you too much to watch :-)17:20
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tjones:-D  - just took a peek and we have nothing pending for i-1.  they all moved to i-217:21
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* hartsocks gets out his drum, starts beating it17:21
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hartsocksokay. So we'll table this for now and come back to it next week. i2 is technically a short deadline for most of us with the holidays in there.17:22
hartsocksOn the topic of bugs...17:22
hartsocksany problem bugs we've not hit on yet?17:23
hartsocks#topic blueprints17:24
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:24
hartsocksSo last week we identified our top 3 blueprints (for the driver)17:24
tjonesfor i-2 right?17:24
hartsocksI targeted these all at i217:24
hartsocksGary had one pretty far along...17:24
tjoneshis are the 1st 217:25
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hartsocksbroken links...17:25
hartsockshold on.17:25
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hartsockshmm… I can't find that first one this week.17:26
hartsocksthat one is i2 b/c it needs some rework.17:26
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hartsocks#action follow up with garyk on vmware-vm-diagnostics17:27
hartsocksI literally can't find that diagnostics one. I thought it was pretty far along.17:27
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hartsocksoh well. so much for talking about that one.17:28
hartsocksI did a quick patch last week on WSDL caching.17:28
hartsocksIt has "caching" as part of it.17:28
hartsocksso I did some research on OSLO and how to maybe do generic "caching" for everything.17:29
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hartsocksThere's an Oslo BP in flight right now doing a generic cache interface.17:29
hartsocksSo just like the config BP we had, we might be able to link these two things up. It's worth looking at anyway.17:30
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hartsockshi dan!17:31
tjonesthe blueprint dashboard needs a blueprint for easier searching :-)17:32
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hartsocksthat's our BP for i117:33
hartsocksLooks like it's on track.17:33
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hartsocksGary's not around so we'll just wave as it goes by.17:34
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danfloreaI think he was making good progress. There was a request to add namespaces for tempest purposes.17:34
hartsocks#link <- very good progress indeed!17:35
vuilgary should be joining in a couple of minutes.17:35
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hartsocksWell, while we're waiting.17:36
hartsocksThis is targeted for i217:36
vuilGood progress made. i2 coz it needs some refactoring a some more tests17:37
hartsocksvuil: could you target i2 on the BP? I apparently don't have permissions.17:37
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vuilhuh, let me see17:38
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vuilThe BP will need to review eyes as well btw17:38
hartsocksI've committed to getting out my "do reviews" drum and beating on it…17:39
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tjonesim tempted to spend some time doing a dashboard that shows RED when things are just withering on the vine waiting for reviews17:40
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hartsockswell, I already burn a lot of time on that script that I run. What's a quick Django project on top of that? :-)17:40
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tjonesi'll do it since i've never used django ;-)17:41
vuilI don't know how to give permission on the bp, but I updated the milestone to i217:41
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hartsocksSo speaking of OSLO and BP...17:41
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hartsocksAre we doing our Configuration Validation work as part of Oslo now?17:42
hartsocksWe had that validator BP17:42
tjonesim horribly behind on that - still have not met with ogelbukh….17:42
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hartsockswould you like some help with that?17:43
tjonesyes please17:43
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hartsocksokay. I'll ping ogelbukh and we'll try and set up an IRC/etherpad thing like I see the big-kids doing.17:44
garykhi, sorry for being terribly late17:44
hartsocksthis is a horrible time of day for a meeting for you.17:44
hartsocksWe were discussing...17:44
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garyk:) - that was approved today17:45
hartsockslooks like that's for i2 now17:46
garykyeah - that is blocked due to the fact that we are not using common config options.17:46
danfloreadoes vm diagnostics require tempest changes? or those are already done as well?17:46
garyki have posted and need to ping russelb about this17:46
garyki just need to solve issues with the tests which have cropped up17:46
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garyklocally they passed - something is fishy with the mock stuff17:47
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garyki'll look at them after the meeting17:47
danfloreaOk. I was under the impression that the namespace changes would apply to other drivers as well and would impact tempest. I can ask you about it later.17:47
garykdanflorea: i am planning on addressing the namespaces tomorrow17:48
garyki plan to add it to libvirt, hyperv and xen. but that is another issue and not related ot the image caching17:48
hartsocksfor the record, namespace issues?17:49
garykhartsocks: the different drivers return different keys for the diagnostics. the spacial once are under a driver namespace17:49
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garykthis is due to the fact that there is no common diagnostics api and no set values to return17:50
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danfloreagaryk: ok, sounds good to me17:50
garykdanflorea: ok, thanks. it is on my to do list17:50
hartsocksany other BP folks need to discuss?17:51
hartsocksI think any BP we've not covered here probably gets pushed to i317:52
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hartsocks#topic opendiscussion17:52
*** openstack changes topic to "opendiscussion (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:52
hartsocksokay. open discussion.17:53
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hartsocksI noticed this
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hartsocksokay. fine. I will.17:54
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hartsocksso srsly.17:55
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hartsocksI noticed this was an abstract cache service.17:55
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hartsocksso I'm wondering how I would write and then use a cache based on this in our driver.17:56
tjoneswhat do you want to cache?  sessions (for example)?17:57
hartsockswell, first off… we have an image cache right now… does that fit?17:57
hartsocksI was writing a WSDL cache… does that fit?17:58
hartsocksNot sure.17:58
vuilimage cache on server side17:58
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vuilVC/ESX i mean.17:58
hartsocksThe examples are Memcache and Redis which leads down a certain path.17:58
hartsocksa Datastore based one might make no sense.17:59
tjoneswsdl maybe?17:59
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hartsocksYeah, I'll play with that.18:00
hartsocksThat's time.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"18:00
openstackMeeting ended Wed Dec  4 18:00:09 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:00
openstackMinutes (text):
hartsocksover at #openstack-vmware for more if you want it.18:00
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SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: there?18:01
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: hi18:01
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: hi18:01
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: there?18:02
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RajeshMohanSumit: Are you back in Bay area?18:02
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: yeah, i am back, still in IST though :-)18:02
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SumitNaiksatamjust kidding18:02
SumitNaiksatamok lets start18:02
RajeshMohanSumit: ok18:02
SumitNaiksatamwe might have a shorter meeting18:02
SumitNaiksatam#startmeeting Networking FWaaS18:03
openstackMeeting started Wed Dec  4 18:03:08 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is SumitNaiksatam. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking_fwaas'18:03
SumitNaiksatamWelcome back, hope everyone is recharged after the summit and thanksgiving!18:03
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SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: hi18:03
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: is Yi around?18:03
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garyduanNot sure.18:04
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: ok18:04
SumitNaiksatam#topic tempest18:04
*** openstack changes topic to "tempest (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:04
SumitNaiksatamanimesh is still looking at this18:04
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SumitNaiksatamI believe the suggestion from the neutron team is to target services related tempest tests for I318:05
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SumitNaiksatamhowever we will try to do this sooner18:05
SumitNaiksatamas before, if anyone wants to participate, this is a great time to jump in, since we are all learning18:05
SridarKAlso do we do some sort of integrated scenario tests with all services18:06
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: yeah18:06
RajeshMohanSumit: I can help with tempest18:06
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: sweet18:06
SridarKok Thanks18:06
SridarKsame here18:06
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: nice18:06
garyduanSumitNaiksatam: what is the relation between tempest and gate?18:06
SridarKperhaps we can have a mtg with animesh to get some core dump18:06
SumitNaiksatamgate uses tempest tests as one of the gating criteria18:06
garyduanSumitNaiksatam: and vendor external testbed18:06
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: vendor external testbed is the one which vendors will have to run in their setup (hooked up to the product they are exposing in neutron/openstack) and have the tempest tests run against that18:07
SumitNaiksatamonce the tests run and complete, they should report back the result (i.e. vote on that particular patch set)18:08
garyduanSumitNaiksatam: thanks18:08
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SumitNaiksatam#action SumitNaiksatam to setup coordination between RajeshMohan SridarK Rudra and Animesh regarding FWaaS tempest tests18:09
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: i guess you will have to plan 3rd party testing for the varmour driver?18:10
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SumitNaiksatamanything more on tempest or testing in general?18:11
SumitNaiksatamfor the rest of the meeting lets go in the order of the items we proposed to the PTL to target of Icehouse18:12
SumitNaiksatamthe PTL has retargeted the blueprints on which we had explicitly mentioned the milestones18:13
SumitNaiksatamand those have been pushed to I318:13
SumitNaiksatam#topic Service Insertion for Firewall18:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Service Insertion for Firewall (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:13
SumitNaiksatamthis is tied to to bigger insertion discussion and blueprint18:14
SumitNaiksatamwe want to target this for I1 but both have been targeted for I318:14
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SumitNaiksatami don't have much of an update on this beyond that18:15
SumitNaiksatamany thoughts/questions?18:15
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: Is there more clarity on the service insertion bp timelines18:15
RajeshMohanWe shoud start design discussions18:15
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SumitNaiksatamSridarK: service insertion and chaining blueprint is also targeted for I318:16
SridarKwhich would be a dependency for FWaaS service insertion18:16
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: so we could start some work and have some overlapped activity for FWaaS18:16
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: yeah, so its tight18:16
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: and increases the odds of this not going through (or us being forced to take a shortcut)18:17
RajeshMohanSumit: so the router-id will come from insertion context?18:17
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: to your earlier question - you mean continue the design discussions?18:17
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: :-(18:17
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: since we already had plenty of discussions on this and I thought we converged on moving forward with the current proposal18:18
RajeshMohanSumit: yes - mainly trying to understand the dependence on service-insertion bp and fwaas bp18:18
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: to your latter question, yes18:18
SumitNaiksatambtw, I1 is tomorrow, I2 is Jan 23rd I believe18:19
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SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: we can have another session on strategizing as to how we go forward on this18:20
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RajeshMohanSumit: Thanks.18:21
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: anything more to add (I know the short cut option sucks and wouldn't want to take that)18:21
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SridarKSumitNaiksatam: As i had mentioned to u earlier - there is strong interest in a L2 realization of FWaaS from one of our customers18:21
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SumitNaiksatamSridarK: ok18:22
SridarKWould like to add that to the list of features and discuss more on the priority.18:22
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: lets take that as a separate item in the agenda today18:22
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: Thanks18:22
SumitNaiksatam#topic service_type framework18:22
*** openstack changes topic to "service_type framework (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:22
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: brought it up in the context of service insertion but we can discuss separately18:22
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: yeah, thanks18:23
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SumitNaiksatamthis has also been retargeted from I2 to I318:23
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: any progress on this?18:23
garyduanpretty much done18:23
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: sweet18:23
garyduanI can submit patch for review18:23
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: i would then encourage you to post the patch for review18:23
SumitNaiksatam#topic zones18:24
*** openstack changes topic to "zones (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:24
SumitNaiksatamcurrently this bp is not targeted for any milestone, but we had proposed that we would work on this in I218:24
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: started work on a doc18:24
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SumitNaiksatamSridarK: ok good18:24
SumitNaiksatamhowever, the bp is not targeted for a milestone18:25
SridarKneed to discuss more btwn u & RajeshMohan:18:25
SridarKyes not clear on the priority of this for Icehouse18:25
SridarKwill need to see what we can push out18:25
SumitNaiksatamits okay to have this as a discussion item for Icehouse and then implement in J, if it's fine with everyone18:26
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RajeshMohanSumit: I think that is a good idea18:26
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: ok good18:26
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: good to continue the effort on the doc so as to drive the discussion18:27
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: will be good to get it in for I3 but given dependencies and other priorities seem like J is more realistic18:27
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: agree18:27
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SridarKSumitNaiksatam: ok will do18:27
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: thanks (i changed the status of the bp to discussion)18:27
SumitNaiksatam#topic Service Objects18:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Service Objects (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:27
garyduanYi is working on it18:28
SumitNaiksatamwe had proposed this for I3, but the blueprint is not targeted for a milestone18:28
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: ok18:28
SumitNaiksatamseems like he is not around18:28
garyduanmaking good progress18:28
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: as a matter of procedure, Yi needs to propose a target milestone for this blueprint18:29
SumitNaiksatamthe PTL can then decide whether its appropriate and approve accordingly18:29
garyduanOk. I will ask him18:30
SumitNaiksatam#action garyduan to sync up with Yi on milestone target for service objects bp18:30
SumitNaiksatam#topic revisit firewall to firewall_policy association18:30
*** openstack changes topic to "revisit firewall to firewall_policy association (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:30
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: you mentioned that there was some interest/validation from users on this?18:31
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: Yes there was strong interest from our customer18:31
SridarKwere also interested in hooking in audit / logging18:31
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: ok18:31
SridarKso we can add that to the list of folks who think this is important to have18:32
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan, garyduan: how about your customers/people using your products?18:32
RajeshMohanSumit: As we have told you before, commit is important feature for firewall18:33
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SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: good, but can we get validation from some users?18:33
garyduanWe'd like to see commit feature in FWaaS18:33
SumitNaiksatamone of the suggestions made during the summit was that we have to provide validation from users to push this forward18:33
RajeshMohanSumit: Can Paypal help here?18:34
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SumitNaiksatami think us making this case is not moving the ball forward on this, we need the users to speak up as well18:34
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: thats a good suggestion18:34
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SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: they seem to be more inclined towards using SG18:34
SumitNaiksatamprobably thats a shorter term thing, but thats the impression i got18:35
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RajeshMohanSumit: ok18:35
SumitNaiksatamsome validation from your direct customers/users will help18:35
SumitNaiksatamthat way we can organize a discussion between the PTL, us, and the users and try to move forward on this18:35
SumitNaiksatamuntil then, I see this as stuck18:36
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SumitNaiksatamdoes everyone agree?18:36
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SumitNaiksatamok i will take that as a yes! :-)18:37
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SumitNaiksatam#topic vendor drivers18:37
*** openstack changes topic to "vendor drivers (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:37
SridarKsorry got bounced out18:37
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RajeshMohanSumit: I thought the discussion in summit was on approach. I thought everyone sees the need for it. Was I wrong?18:37
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openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x26b6390>18:38
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: not sure everyone was convinced of the need either, the pushback was that it is in some way not RESTful18:39
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RajeshMohanThere were alternate approaches (like duplicating policy) and I assumed that others see the need for it18:39
SumitNaiksatami have sought clarification on this in the review, but i am yet to get a good answer on this18:40
RajeshMohanok - we can cite existing products that have commit feature18:40
garyduanI mentioned once, maybe for simplicity, once we commit, we commit to all firewall18:40
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: yes, that, and more importantly we need some actual user voices to push for this18:41
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SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: we can discuss those level semantics as a second step, but we first need to get agreement on the commit/apply operation18:41
SumitNaiksatam#topic vendor drivers18:42
*** openstack changes topic to "vendor drivers (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:42
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan SridarK RajeshMohan: anything you guys planning on pushing in icehouse?18:42
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: We will have a dependency on zones so unlikely in icehouse18:42
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: ok18:43
RajeshMohanSumit: Same here. Zones and commit are must before we publish our driver18:43
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: ok18:43
garyduanFor us, it's mostly refactoring18:43
RajeshMohanSumit: Will talk to product management on commit on get back to you18:44
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: ok, which milestone are you targeting?18:44
SumitNaiksatamRajeshMohan: thanks18:44
garyduanas part of service framework,18:44
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: okay, so I3?18:44
garyduanSumitNaiksatam: yes. we have a bp18:44
SumitNaiksatamgaryduan: ok18:44
SumitNaiksatami want to give SridarK time for the discussion on L2 firewall18:44
SumitNaiksatam#topic L2 firewall18:44
*** openstack changes topic to "L2 firewall (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:44
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: please go ahead18:45
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: Thanks18:45
SridarKdo u think this is something we can target post service insertion18:45
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sc68calSridarK: I'm here too for this18:45
SridarKi think it is a valid and common deployment case18:45
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sc68calif any q's about our usecase18:46
SridarKso68cal: thanks Sean - pls add more18:46
SridarKas reqd18:46
SumitNaiksatamSridarK sc68cal: thanks18:46
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: absolutely, this is the reason for the proposal on service insertion to tackle these different possibilitites18:46
SumitNaiksatamsc68cal: as a user i think we need your input/support on the service insertion/chaining proposal18:47
sc68calThe main issue we have is that with the layer-3 agent still a SPOF, we're using provider networks for L3 services for instances. We'd like to have our cake and eat it too, still be able to take advantage of certain APIs that currently require the l3 agent18:47
SumitNaiksatambased on that we can support many different possibilities for services18:47
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: And this is a good demonstration of the use cases service insertion/chaining can address18:47
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SumitNaiksatamsc68cal: ok18:48
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: agree18:48
SridarKAlso to add to so68cal - beyond solving specific needs this is a common use case that will be of interest to many18:49
sc68calwe did a very quick writeup18:49
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SumitNaiksatamSridarK sc68cal: I would recommend adding a blueprint for the reference implementation of L2 firewall with a dependency on the service insertion/chaining blueprint18:49
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: will do so18:50
SridarKSumitNaiksatam: sounds good18:50
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sc68calSumitNaiksatam: ok - should we take that blueprint I linked, and add a dep for the service insertion blueprint?18:50
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SumitNaiksatamsc68cal: that might work too, but i think that particular is not very clear about the L2 aspect of the firewall18:51
SumitNaiksatamperhaps this needs more than one bp18:51
SumitNaiksatamyou can coordinate with SridarK18:51
sc68calok will do18:51
SumitNaiksatamwe can have a separate session to dig deeper into this, all are welcome18:52
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SumitNaiksatam#topic open discussion18:52
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)"18:52
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SumitNaiksatamanything else that anyone wants to bring up?18:52
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SridarKSumitNaiksatam: hopefully things on neutron will settle down so we can get some of feature needs addressed18:53
SumitNaiksatamalrighty…thats a wrap then, thanks everyone, until next time, bye!18:53
SridarKthanks bye18:54
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: absolutely, we also need to chip in on that front! :-)18:54
SridarKyes for sure18:54
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"18:54
openstackMeeting ended Wed Dec  4 18:54:26 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:54
SridarKok bye18:54
openstackMinutes (text):
SumitNaiksatamSridarK: thanks18:54
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openstackstevebaker: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee'20:01
stevebaker#startmeeting heat20:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Dec  4 20:01:37 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevebaker. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
randallburtplease don't start a Marketing Committee meeting20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'heat'20:01
stevebaker#topic rollcall20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)"20:01
vineethvhi  o/20:02
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stevebaker#topic Review last meeting's actions20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Review last meeting's actions (Meeting topic: heat)"20:02
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stevebakerRandall to publish use cases for heat template catalog20:03
stevebakerwe have template catalog on the agenda, lets talk about that later20:03
stevebaker#topic Adding items to the agenda20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Adding items to the agenda (Meeting topic: heat)"20:03
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stevebakerAny items to add?20:04
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stevebaker#topic * icehouse-1 release20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "* icehouse-1 release (Meeting topic: heat)"20:04
stevebakerSpamapS: you made it !120:04
sdake_no quorum without spamaps ;)20:05
SpamapSif that were true... there would be no quorum ;)20:05
stevebakerwe're looking pretty good20:05
* stevebaker checks if we've actually branched yet20:05
sdake_green is good20:05
randallburtwow, that looks pretty good.20:05
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shardybumping all the non-green-things ftw! ;)20:06
SpamapSit did not look so good yesterday.. :)20:06
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sdake_can always do tomorrow what can't be done today ;020:06
adrian_ottodamn, that's awesome20:06
stevebakerSpamapS: I just kicked all the things to i-2 ;)20:06
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stevebakerwe can still get bug fixes into i-120:06
jasondstevebaker: this is merged, but not listed in the i-1 list
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stevebakerby tagging the bug with...20:07
jasondmaybe it needs to be approved?20:07
stevebakerdoes anybody know?20:07
shardystevebaker: yea20:07
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shardystevebaker: Or actually, you just propose them by the backport process (same as stable)20:08
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stevebakerjasond: fixed20:08
shardybut the branch you propose to is milestone-proposed20:08
jasondstevebaker: thanks20:08
shardydon't necessarily have to tag the commit20:08
stevebakerok, what shardy said.20:08
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stevebakerwe got a lot of blueprints in, way better than grizzly-120:09
sdake_more community members ftw!20:09
shardystevebaker: Anyone can propose them in theory, but normally I think the PTL monitors the bugs merged between branch and release, and propose as needed20:09
shardyor at least that's what I did20:09
stevebakeryeah, anything that gets fixed in the next few days I'll evaluate for milestone-proposed20:10
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stevebakerwell, the next day and a bit20:10
* randallburt yells at tests to hurry up and work20:10
stevebaker#topic * Template catalog use cases20:10
*** openstack changes topic to "* Template catalog use cases (Meeting topic: heat)"20:10
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randallburttims: commence the link spam ;)20:10
stevebakerrandallburt: shoot!20:10
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stevebakershouldn't that be HeaTR?20:11
randallburtwe basically added them to the existing bps and spec. We're still working on specs and don't want to spend much time there until everyone has a chance to review the use cases20:11
sdake_shardy your wish is tims command :)20:11
randallburtstevebaker:  I like20:11
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randallburtso there will also be a follow up ML post after the meeting to continue refining/consensus if that's cool with everyone.20:12
timsrandallburt had to tell me what HTR stands for20:12
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randallburtmaybe HOTTeR?20:13
adrian_ottooh, my20:13
sdake_my money is on heat template repository20:13
shardytims: So will this be a new orchestration project, not something we add via the existing heat API?20:13
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timsshardy: well that's up for debate20:13
randallburtshardy:  that's the plan ATM.20:13
SpamapSHas there been any evaluation of existing API driven things for managing a catalog of documents?20:13
SpamapSLike, what makes HOT special that it needs a new one?20:14
shardyOk, my position has always been that we shouldn't be storing templates via the orchestration API, but I can see the value in some other service related to heat, provided we don't reimplement git in the process ;)20:14
stevebakeryes, surely the CMS crowd has solved this problem many times20:14
randallburtSpamapS:  some, but we still need to dig a bit more into your Glance proposal; I still need to see if it will actually work20:14
timsshardy: There are lots of cool things that we could do if it were part of existing heat api20:15
shardytims: such as?20:15
SpamapSGlance doesn't have versioning and it may never have it. So I accept Glance isnt necessarily the answer (though adding versioning to glance would probably make some image deployers very happy..)20:15
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timsbut I haven't clearly defined those things atm which I why I'm not super passionate about it20:15
randallburtshardy:  we've talked a bit about HTR using git as a backing store and alternate means of management, but still need to document that as well20:15
timsthings that require engine parsing the template20:15
SpamapSI worry that there is a default position of building rather than consuming.20:15
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stevebakertims, randallburt: I have a use case which would be nice to add:20:16
stevebakerAs a template author I want to add and manage templates in the repository using git20:16
timsthat may not do Heat things but we would not want to duplicate the parsing logic20:16
sdake_SpamapS could you expand on that point?20:16
SpamapSFor instance, cgit has search, tagging, versioning.. why not just add keystone token auth to cgit?20:16
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randallburtstevebaker:  yup sounds good to me and something tims and I discussed yesterday quite a bit. we still just need to put those thougts into the associated wiki20:16
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timsstevebaker: agreed20:17
shardytims: I may need a little more detail to really understand what you're proposing20:17
randallburtSpamapS:  fair point, but we've tried to step back and "do the right thing" here and just talk general use cases and get consensus around the service iteself20:17
shardytims: Can you add a section to the wiki with the arguments for keeping the two things together?20:17
timsshardy: Yes I'm working on a formal proposal20:17
timsgood idea20:17
SpamapSrandallburt: fantastic, the use cases look realy solid actually.20:17
shardytims: Just a quick brain-dump into the wiki is fine for now20:18
timsshardy: will do20:18
sdake_randallburt the approach seems right for a contentious change ;)20:18
randallburttims did all the heavy lifting. I just do reviews and go on vacation.20:18
randallburtand vineethv too20:18
SpamapS" A service maintainer would like to have a repository in which he can manage Heat templates and maintain associated keywords and metadata."20:19
SpamapScan we please use non-gender-specific pronouns?20:19
randallburtSpamapS:  sure20:19
stevebakertims, randallburt, so another issue is the apparent overlap with the scope of Murano. I think you guys really need to get together and find some common ground. The TC is only going to allow one template catalog into OpenStack.
timsSpamapS: yeah I started going back through and fixing that stuff20:19
timsbut I haven't finished20:19
randallburtstevebaker:  agreed. tims or I can reach out to them. They originally posted a comment on the BP a while back and I think they may be complementary when I read what they proposed, but I'll go see where they're at.20:20
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stevebakerrandallburt: chances are they would be more than happy to use heattr as their cataloging layer20:21
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timsshardy: an initial idea is parsing the template to retrieve the "planned stack" resources based on parameters20:21
timsso we know exactly what resources are created before stack instantiation20:21
randallburtstevebaker:  my thoughts exactly20:21
timsthe argument I'm having with randallburt is whether thats a feature of Heater or Heat20:21
kebraystevebaker my understanding is Murano is a 3rd party (sell your stuff) Application Catalog.  and, HTR is a template catalog for Heat templates.20:22
shardytims: You mean like a template cost estimate or something?20:22
stevebakerrandallburt: and maybe can be the start of a horizon frontend to heattr20:22
randallburttims shardy but that is a different bp imo and may belong in heat api proper, but its another issue to discuss20:22
timsshardy: more or less20:22
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randallburtstevebaker:  oh cool. I'll check that out.20:22
timsrandallburt: agreed but it could have ramifications on the discussion about putting Heater in Heat proper20:22
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randallburttims: oh, right. yeah, thats going to be a fun one ;)20:23
SpamapSkebray: Sell your stuff or give your stuff away, sounds _very_ related.20:23
shardytims: Ok, maybe we could have an API call which validates a template and returns a list of resources or something20:23
randallburtFWIW, lets get mailing list consensus on the UC/scope of Heater before we dive in to those waters.20:23
stevebakerkebray: ah. that sounds they are a layer above heattr. They should be strongly encouraged to get involved20:23
sdake_tims: Heat is a component of the Orchestration program, so hopefully the ramifications won't be overblown20:24
kebraySpamapS agreed... will connect with the Murano folks more.  That project keeps changing.  One day it's windows, the next it's an app store.20:24
SpamapSMake sure the Murano folk have seen everything.20:24
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SpamapSkebray: agreed, that may be enough reason to stay away ;)20:24
timsshardy: :) yes I have thoughts about the validate endpoint too20:24
randallburtshardy:  yeah, IMO its a tangental use case in which the user wants to know before they create a stack just how many of which resources would be created; not sure that's a Heater thing.20:24
stevebakerso if there is some POC code that already exists, lets get it into stackforge with a new gerrit core team20:24
kebrayYeah, they knew about HTR before they switched Muran's definition.  The answer I got was they are doing something different.  but, we will def reach out to them again.20:24
shardytims: So IMO we could add some calls to support this, but I still remain very unconvinced that we should expose a template store via the heat (*orchestration*) endpoint20:25
randallburtstevebaker:  about that, there is, but is having it in the Orchestration *program* still on the table?20:25
stevebakerIf it eventually gets proposed to being part of the orchestration program, the gerrit team will become heat-core20:25
randallburtshardy:  fwiw I agree.20:25
timssdake_ shardy point taken and I am in general agreement20:25
randallburtstevebaker:  because IMO, it belongs in the program and if we have a proposal for it now, I'd rather avoid the double work of getting it in stackforge and then moving it.20:26
kebrayshardy randallburt , I think tims and I are in opposition with you guys... will definitely be good to understand each other's sides. More discussion to be had.20:26
adrian_ottofwiw, I took a good look at Murano, and I don't think it's similar enough to be a fit for this.20:26
kebrayok, maybe it's just me :-)20:26
timsas long as the proposed schema for heater has not valid use for Heat20:26
timskebray I have some conditions in my agreement ;)20:26
SpamapSone thing about a program..20:26
kebrayhehe.. sure sure tims .20:27
adrian_ottoI agree with randallburt they are complimentary20:27
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SpamapSis that programs can reach across to other projects and programs to achieve their mission.20:27
SpamapSprograms are specifically _not_ silos.20:27
stevebakerrandallburt: moving from stackforge -> openstack isn't a huge deal. I don't know the process but I think a new source tree still needs some form of incubation even if it is part of the orchestration program from the start20:27
sdake_SpamapS +120:27
randallburtYeah, my real question is "Can we develop this under from the get go"?20:28
stevebaker#action stevebaker find out the incubation process for new projects in existing programs20:28
randallburtas part of the orchestration program20:28
sdake_stevebaker that sounds like a popcorn-filled conversation :)20:28
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SpamapSrandallburt: yes20:28
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adrian_ottoI don't think there is a process yet20:28
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SpamapSwe've added lots to openstack/xxx in TripleO20:29
randallburtSpamapS:  k. certainly something we can explore more on the ML20:29
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stevebakerrandallburt: we probably could, but it would most likely mean being owned by heat-core from the start. You might make quicker process with a new -core team, which would imply stackforge for now20:29
SpamapSintegration into the release is what the incubation process brings, but the program gives you "officialness"20:29
SpamapSthats a word20:29
SpamapSI swear20:29
adrian_ottostevebaker: what's wrong with using the current head-core for it?20:30
stevebakeranother possible solution is to grow heat-core, which we should anyway20:30
randallburtstevebaker:  true and good point which we've of course discussed before. Just want to make sure we're all aware of the actual options.20:30
stevebakerreviews! reviews! reviews!20:30
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randallburt:3 pages:20:30
sdake_need moar reviewers -> more heat core !!20:30
shardyadrian_otto: If most of the folks working on it aren't heat-core, they may get frustrated when we're slow reviewing their stuff ;)20:30
adrian_ottoshardy: I see20:30
shardyadrian_otto: I guess there are advantages to either approach20:31
SpamapSstevebaker: we can create sub-teams that are not heat-core but have access to a different openstack/xxxx repo20:31
SpamapSyeah we do actually need more reviewers20:31
stevebakerSpamapS: do tripleo do that?20:31
stevebakerSpamapS: with all your many many repos?20:31
SpamapSstevebaker: we have talked about doing so for tuskar20:31
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SpamapSstevebaker: but ultimately we just encouraged tuskar folk to review everything ;)20:31
shardyAverage wait time: 1 days, 1 hours, 20 minutes20:32
shardynot too bad in comparison to some other projects IME20:32
sdake_unfortunately I spend 2 hours a day doing reviews20:32
sdake_would be nice to trim that to 1 hour :)20:32
stevebakershardy: but that could be spread over way more reviewers20:32
randallburtsdake_:  only 2!!??20:32
shardystevebaker: I agree, and I think there are some potential candidates coming along :)20:33
sdake_I haven't had the willpower to do any reviews since thanksgiving :(20:33
SpamapSRight I think we're doing well because we're all committed to doing well... but we could use more reviewers20:33
* SpamapS notes ----> Open Discussion as we are OT20:33
pshchelo_hi all20:33
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pshchelo_can we create a topic in openstack-dev specifically for heat?20:34
stevebakerrandallburt: so you should start a ML thread to talk about new project, where to host, who to be -core etc?20:34
randallburtstevebaker:  that's the plan20:34
stevebakersounds good20:34
stevebakerlets move on20:34
timsone more thought: if Heater is separate from Heat as just a template store that's fine, the problem is we are defining additional schema for Heater which may be useful to templates or users not interfacing with Heat via Heater. so when looking at the proposed schema maybe some of it goes in the template and then Heater is literally crud operations on templates?20:34
timswe can discuss on ml20:35
sdake_tims details on ml I think are better20:35
timsgot it20:35
SpamapSyeah and also the schema-for-packaging is contentious20:35
stevebakertims: we can add things to the HOT schema. Most potential additions would probably be useful to things other than heater20:35
stevebaker#topic open discussion20:36
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)"20:36
pshchelo_sorry for offtopic above - couldn't wait..20:36
sdake_we have a [heat] tag on openstack-dev ml already?20:37
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SpamapSstevebaker: should I not have approved ?20:37
randallburtpshchelo_:  the way it generally works is we have [heat] prefix for our subjects20:37
pshchelo_yes, but you can not subscribe to it20:37
SpamapSstevebaker: or will the branch just be made off some commit that is already there?20:37
randallburtthere's only one openstack-dev20:37
pshchelo_only filtering20:37
sdake_pschelo_ thats what mail filters were invented for :)20:37
prasadvcan we discuss autoscaling api in this open discussion, I have a question on the load balancer member20:37
shardypshchelo_: That's what the tags are for ;)20:37
pshchelo_you can subscribe to specific topics on openstack-dev, but heat is not one of them20:38
stevebakerSpamapS: milestone-proposed is already branched, so we're open for features again I think20:38
SpamapSpshchelo_: contact Stefano about that, he can and should add it.20:38
sdake_pschelo_ do you have a link as an example?20:38
SpamapSstevebaker: ok cool20:38
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pshchelo_filters I know, but still receiving the whole list20:39
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pshchelo_which is a bit overwhelming20:39
stevebakerprasadv: ask away20:39
sdake_mark all read ftw ;)20:39
prasadvcan the load balancer member be non IP based20:39
pshchelo_that's a solution for now20:39
prasadvthere are cases where the autoscaling can be done on a neutron port or mac address20:40
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prasadvin that case it would be a custom LB20:40
prasadvi mean non neutron LB20:40
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stevebakerprasadv: it seems reasonable for a member to be a port UUID instead of an IP20:41
sdake_ideally we dont want to reimplement neutron's load balancer20:41
* radix reads backlog20:41
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sdake_but if people use heat in that way, I don't think we should be in a position to stop them20:41
prasadvi assume one can configure any load balancer right?20:41
pshchelo_when you log in to your mailman subscription manage page for openstack-dev20:41
radixprasadv: are you referring to the idea for a PoolMember resource?20:42
prasadvnot just Lbaas20:42
SpamapSRight Heat should be enabling the Neutron LB the way Neutron users want it to work. So if it allows adding port UUID members, then Heat should do that.20:42
sdake_pschelo_ contact the list manager at the bottom of the page - he can add heat there I suspect20:42
prasadvradix: yes20:42
radixprasadv: presumably PoolMember will match the pool member API in whatever it accepts20:42
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pshchelo_sdake_: thanx20:42
sdake_pschelo_ nobody here knows the list admin password :)20:43
prasadvradix: thanks20:43
radixprasadv: I don't know if that answers your question, I'm having a hard time understanding it20:43
stevebakerprasadv: how would a FloatingIP become a pool member?20:43
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pshchelo_wasn't sure if I'm not missing smth20:44
prasadvstevebaker: I dont understand the question? Are you talking about non neutron LB?20:44
prasadvradix: Load balancing in some scenarios can be based on port, particularly related to service chaining20:45
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stevebakerprasadv: for neutron LB, should we support adding a FloatingIP to a LB pool?20:45
prasadvradix: autoscale is one important component of service chaining20:46
adrian_ottoI think he might be asking if you could use a pool as an inventory of floating IPs20:46
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prasadvstevebaker: generally floating IP is external and it is mapped to internal IP addresses. One could get away with using internal IP addresses. I think20:47
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stevebakerI think what I'm referring to is this bug
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1256836 in heat "associate vip with floating ip" [Medium,Triaged]20:47
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prasadvstevebaker: I will look at the bug. Dont have the context on that20:48
stevebakerprasadv: ok, feel free to comment on it, especially if you think it is not valid20:48
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stevebakeranything else, should we wind up the meeting?20:48
arbyleeanyone interested in talking a bit about the sync/convergence feature:
sdake_lets wind up!20:49
arbyleewe're working through initial implementations and have been trying to work through some scenarios:
stevebakerarbylee: it looks like zaneb has started working on which may be tangentially related20:50
randallburtarbylee:  is that a duplicate bp? I thought we discussed convergence at the summit, but it might have been a result of another bp. Just want to make sure they're linked.20:50
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shardyrandallburt: not duplicate, but related I think20:51
arbyleewe didn't see a blueprint raised out of the summit for sync/converge.  There was one for auto-retry on create failures20:51
shardyone is about restarting a failed update, or updating from a failed state20:51
shardyrather than updating from a complete state and inspecting all the resource states20:52
randallburtshardy, arbylee ok, cool. just wanted to row the ducks if needed ;)20:52
asalkeldoops, bit late20:52
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stevebakerarbylee: would you like to target heat-convergence to icehouse-2 or icehouse-3?20:53
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andersonvomstevebaker: icehouse-2 sounds like a good target so far20:53
stevebakerdone, and approved20:54
randallburtand IIRC, we discussed there being two separate operations 1. tell me what the differences are and 2. Make the stack match the template if it doesn't.20:54
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arbyleerandallburt: right, our initial WIP commit produced a diff.  there were concerns about the scalability of that operation though20:55
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arbyleethe resulting vision seemed to be to provide the two actions: 1) make my local stack reflect the real world resources and 2) Make the stack match the template if it doesn't.20:55
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randallburtarbylee:  ah, cool, though 1 sounds a little tricky when you get to instance configuration stuff20:56
shardyrandallburt: we could have an update which just aligns the resource states with the state of the underlying resource20:56
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randallburtshardy:  sounds simple enough in that case.20:57
andersonvomshardy: that's our current development right now20:57
shardyandersonvom: Cool, that's the first step IMO, then the next is to actually update the resource to e.g align from FAILED to COMPLETE state20:58
shardythe second step will probably be the difficult bit ;)20:58
randallburt2 min20:58
andersonvomshardy: agree. and agree. =P20:58
arbyleeshardy: we've been having some debate on that first bit even.20:58
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randallburtarbylee:  sounds like a good ML discussion then ;)20:59
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shardyandersonvom: That second step may end up being related to the restart-from-failed work which zaneb is looking at20:59
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arbyleerandallburt: then ML discussion it shall be21:00
andersonvomshardy, randallburt: true. we'll bring it up on the ML and sync up with zane to see what parts may be 'shared'21:00
shardyandersonvom: +121:00
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randallburtseems so21:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"21:00
openstackMeeting ended Wed Dec  4 21:00:52 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:00
openstackMinutes (text):
stevebakerthanks all21:01
eglynn-afk#startmeeting ceilometer21:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Dec  4 21:01:10 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is eglynn-afk. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"21:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer'21:01
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eglynn-afkI'm channelling jd__ again this week21:01
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eglynnanyone else lurking?21:01
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* dragondm imagines eglynn-afk with turban and crystal ball...21:02
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eglynndragondm: LOL :)21:02
ildikovdragondm: :)21:02
eglynnOK, start your engines ladies & gentlemen ...21:03
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eglynn#topic Icehouse-1 status21:03
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eglynnwell, it's been released21:03
eglynnI'm y'all have seen the mail from ttx ...21:03
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eglynnnot a huge amount in it TBH21:04
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eglynnwell, I guess it's not quite released as yet21:05
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gordcjumped the gun.21:05
eglynnmilestone candidate for now21:05
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eglynnbut I don't see anything else getting in at this stage21:05
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eglynnunless someone has something up their sleeve?21:06
eglynnso lets consider icehouse-1 done & dusted, or?21:06
gordcnothing from me.21:07
eglynnthing is ...21:07
eglynna thin milestone-1 puts some pressure on us as the project team to deliver a chunky milestone-221:07
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llu-laptophow about for stable/havana?21:08
eglynnllu-laptop: well the stable release cadence is independent of the main release cycle21:08
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dragondmBunch of event stuff up for review. Presumably that'll land pretty quickly for i2, depending on reviews...21:08
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eglynnllu-laptop: but noted nonetheless21:08
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eglynndragondm: yep, I'm thinking i2 for that21:09
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eglynnllu-laptop: yes, I'd love to have more eyes on that patch21:09
eglynnllu-laptop: as I've got another patch proposed to stable that depends on it21:10
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eglynn(required for tempest to avoid a nasty intermittent integrity error ...)21:10
eglynnso +1s (even non-binding are welcome!)21:10
* dragondm will review after meeting...21:11
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eglynndragondm: thanks!21:11
eglynnanything else on icehouse-1?21:11
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gordchas anyone seen this when testing the concurrency patch?21:11
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1257908 in ceilometer "DBDeadlock exception in sql backend" [Undecided,New]21:11
dragondmAnything that will make tempest more stable is good...21:11
eglynngordc: I have not seen that21:12
gordc... or i should say with the concurrency patch... (i've no idea if they're related)21:12
gordceglynn: ok, cool. i'll keep debugging what i see.21:12
eglynngordc: smells like one of those Heisenbugs ;)21:13
eglynnok, moving on ...21:13
eglynn#topic Tempest run errors21:13
eglynnso I've looked into this21:13
eglynnthis is the issue raised by dkranz on the ML21:13
eglynnbasically cielo is spewing unexpected ERRORs into the logs21:14
eglynnthat causes Temptest CI runs to fail21:14
eglynnand hence the specific log messages have to be whitelisted21:14
eglynnwhihc is badness21:14
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eglynnfor obvious reasons ...21:15
eglynnat least some of the issue appears to be caused by a race with suspended instances21:15
dkranzeglynn: Hi. ping me again if you need me.21:15
eglynninstance is suspended21:15
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eglynnthen compute agent pollster fails with a libvirt error21:16
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eglynnso basically the compute agent needs to made tolerant of these instance-state-dependent errors21:16
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eglynnI've captured some ideas in ...21:16
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1257302 in ceilometer "compute pollsters should tolerate libvirt errors reported when inspecting suspended instances" [Undecided,Triaged]21:17
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eglynnI'm gonna take that bug21:17
eglynnbut in general, we really need to be more selective about log.error21:17
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eglynnsdague sent a good mail about this to the ML yesterday21:18
eglynnbasically ERROR == "someone is woken up at 3am"21:18
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eglynnso lets start using ERROR severity a bit more sparingly. agreed?21:19
DanDseems like it should only be a unrecoverable error21:19
eglynnDanD: exactly!21:19
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eglynncool :)21:20
eglynnok, moving onwards ...21:20
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eglynn#topic Help needed for fixing MySQL errors in unit tests21:20
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eglynnso this is interesting21:20
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eglynnthing is ... testing against sqlite is a little, well, non-challenging for our sqlalchemy driver21:21
eglynnsqlite doesn't do a bunch of stuff like foreign key constraints, unique constraints etc21:22
eglynnjust looking at the migration scripts21:22
eglynnyou'll see a bunch of special casing for sqlite21:22
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herndon_Can we just ditch SQLite for good? no migrations, no support, nothing?21:23
eglynngenerally smoothening the happy path and leaving potential issues to lurk21:23
terriyudo people actually use sqlite in real production environments?21:23
eglynnherndon_: I hear ya!21:23
dragondmI certainly hope not.21:23
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eglynnterriyu: no, yoyu'd be shot for doing that ;)21:23
terriyusorry for the newb question, guys :)21:23
dragondmsqlite doesn't really do migrations altogether.21:23
eglynndragondm: yep, so much of the migration logic is skipped, it's barely worth talking about21:24
eglynnproblem is then nasty mysql-specific or postgres-specific bugs only rare their ugly heads in prod :(21:24
dragondmAnd even what it does is really a hack in sqlalchemy migrate to simulate schema change, etc. We switch to alembic, and that will go away too.21:25
eglynn(or in tempest if we're lucky!)21:25
herndon_I thought the plan was to use mysql for unit tests, then we get rid of sqlite. Is that wrong?21:25
eglynnherndon_: exactly!21:25
dragondmeglynn: yah. Even mysql lets stuff slide that only postgres, or other bigger db's will catch.21:25
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eglynnherndon_: so jd__ has porposed a patch to do so ...21:25
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dragondm(i.e. like non-aggregate columns in an aggregate query)21:25
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eglynnbut the feeling is that we'll have a deluge of bugs21:26
herndon_I think I saw that, but it had a lot of test failures... anyway, I would love to help out in that effort.21:26
eglynnso the motivation for raising this in the meeting agenda to elicit support for fix that inevitable deluge of bugs21:26
eglynnherndon_: great!21:26
DanDso we agreed that the gate would be on MySQL only and other qualifications would need to be manually run didn't we?21:26
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eglynnDanD: that we did21:27
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eglynnbut gate == "unit tests" or gate == "tempest tests"21:27
dragondmYah, the bugs are in there already, we'll just be finding them. I'm all for that.21:27
herndon_maybe we need a bug hunt day?21:27
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eglynnherndon_: a capital idea!21:28
eglynna DB bug squashing day21:28
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eglynnwe have peeps in our community with a specific slat towards DB/migration logic21:28
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DanDso is the plan to remove sqllite dependencies and change default to MySQL, then fix the resulting fallout?21:29
eglynnit would be great to leverage this in a formal bug squashing day21:29
eglynnDanD: yep, maybe keeping sqlite as a real lightweight option21:30
eglynn#action eglynn organize DB/migration bug squash day21:30
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eglynn(before i-2 goes out if poss)21:30
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dragondmsqlite would be usefull for tests above the db layer if we got the changes in to create the schema from the model layer, rather than migrations...21:31
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dragondmOther than that... Bleh.21:31
eglynndragondm: true that21:31
herndon_yeah, what's the status of that by the way?21:31
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dragondm^ indeed, how is that?21:32
eglynnthat I don't know, IIRC glance did it that way at one point21:32
* eglynn will have to research that ...21:32
eglynnmay be some prior art we can steal21:33
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eglynns/steal/pay homage to/ ;)21:33
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eglynnright-o, moving on with the agenda ...21:33
eglynn#topic Release python-ceilometerclient?21:33
eglynnno need21:33
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eglynnnot only have I done it once21:33
eglynn... I did it twice this week21:34
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eglynnbecause of this regression ...21:34
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1256883 in oslo "cliutils passing sortby=None breaks older versions of prettytable" [Medium,Fix committed]21:34
eglynnso 1.0.8 is now out with the latest & greatest21:35
eglynnI suspect next release will be herndon_ 's event API support21:35
eglynnand possibly group-by support too, perhaps?21:35
eglynn... anyway that's fairly forward-looking21:36
eglynnk, let's move on ...21:36
eglynn#topic Open discussion21:36
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lsmolallu-laptop, how is the hardware to central agent integration going?21:37
llu-laptop, still reviewing the patches21:37
sandy__and how's the oslo.messaging integration going?21:38
sandy__(I forget who was working on it)21:38
herndon_i think it was silhet21:38
eglynnsandy__: it's sileht21:38
eglynnsnap ;)21:38
terriyuI think sileht is away today21:38
dragondmStill wip, last I saw that...21:38
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eglynnsandy__: Mehdi pushed a WIP patch for review21:39
lsmolallu-laptop, excellent21:39
llu-laptoplsmola: after those patches landed, I'll rebase of on top of that21:39
sandy__cool, thanks ... will look21:39
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lsmolallu-laptop, great, looking forward to that21:39
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eglynn... k, methinks we may be done here tonight21:41
eglynnfolks thank you for your time and attention!21:41
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* eglynn is on a hair-trigger with hash-tag endmeeting ;)21:41
lsmolathanks guys, good night21:41
eglynn... anything else before we close?21:42
thomasemHAve a great one!21:42
sandy__thanks eglynn21:42
terriyueglynn: nice of you to give a warning :)21:42
terriyunope, nothing from me21:42
eglynnthanks folks, efficient & productive as always! :)21:42
ildikovthanks guys and eglynn, good night21:43
eglynnsee y'all on IRC tmrw :)21:43
terriyuon #openstack-ceilometer !21:43
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ildikovterriyu: +121:43
eglynnterriyu: well said!21:43
terriyuthanks everyone21:43
dragondmYup, more pple need to switch channels21:43
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eglynnterriyu: that should have been an agenda item to be fair ...21:43
terriyueglynn: +121:44
eglynnlet's all do the switch, as our illustrious PTL is only to be found on #openstack-ceilometer these days ...21:44
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dragondmeglynn: btw, I don't think the bot noticed your #endmeeting...21:45
llu-laptophello autobot, where's the log?21:45
eglynn#endmeeting ceilometer21:45
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dragondmeglynn changed his nick.... the bot isn't recognizing him.21:45
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"21:45
openstackMeeting ended Wed Dec  4 21:45:55 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:45
openstackMinutes (text):
terriyuwell done eglynn-afk !21:46
eglynn-afkgood shout dragondm! :)21:46
llu-laptopmagic nick name :)21:46
eglynn-afk'night all! :)21:46
dragondm'gnight all.21:46
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sarobreed you around?23:03
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reedsarob, yes23:04
sarobmeeting today?23:04
reedwe sure can :)23:04
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sarobreed wanted to riff on blueprint and training guides23:05
reedlet's do it23:05
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reed#startmeeting openstack-community23:06
openstackMeeting started Wed Dec  4 23:06:10 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is reed. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.23:06
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-community)"23:06
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_community'23:06
sarobso what do you think about
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* reed opening 23:07
reedright, I saw the wiki page too23:07
sarobreed: something good here?23:08
reed#topic tools to help newcomers understand the Foundation at a glance23:08
*** openstack changes topic to "tools to help newcomers understand the Foundation at a glance (Meeting topic: openstack-community)"23:08
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reedsarob, indeed, lots of good stuff there23:08
sarobreed: cool23:08
reedthe wiki page is not fully readable on my system though23:09
reedlooks like a part of it is cut23:09
sarobi'd like to expand/include what board director responsibilities are23:09
sarobhmm, its big for sure23:09
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sarobim not a UI guy23:09
* sarob just the facts 23:09
reedand tables in the wiki are just hard23:09
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reedanyway, one thing I'd like to understand better is the scope of the project23:10
sarobright, i gamed it through a gsheet23:10
reedwhere did the need come from?23:10
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sarobreed: as long as the info gets to eyeballs23:10
sarobreed: i will plant the flag of success in victory23:11
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sarobreed: we know this stuff cause we have been living the dream23:11
sarobreed: many do not know details like this and have no idea where to find them23:12
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reedsarob, I'm wondering whether it would make sense to create a page for each of the entity you describe in the table and group those pages into one master page23:12
reednah, it would not be readable23:12
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sarobmaybe mouse over23:13
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reedI'm afraid of the maintainability of a huge table23:13
reedon a wiki23:13
sarobme too23:13
sarobits just a starting place i think23:13
reedbtw, needs permission23:13
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reedi agree with you, it's a starting point23:13
reedmaybe from there we can go and improve the pages of each item?23:14
reedfor example, something I have noticed is that the individual program pages are not consistent23:14
sarobreed: your account?23:14
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reedsarob, stefano@openstack.org23:15
reedor just make it public23:15
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reedsince you link it from the public wiki anyway23:15
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sarobhmm, its on my yahoo-inc account, i can move it to my private23:15
sarobtask for me23:15
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reedsee for example: and have different information23:16
reednot sure if the wiki pages can be 'templatized'23:16
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reed#idea can wiki pages carry templates? how can we make the individual program pages more coherent, carry the same sort of information?23:16
sarobreed: hmm, not sure, but is that this problem?23:17
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reedsarob, in a way I think it is23:17
sarobreed: we need someone like marketing to own communicating the table info23:17
reedsarob, if I understand the problem you're addressing is the lack of 'at a glance' useful information in lots of our pieces23:17
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sarobreed: well, a bit of it23:18
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reedsarob, expand then, I'm interested23:18
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sarobreed: for instance when a new corporation wants to join 'openstack'23:18
sarobreed: what are their options23:18
sarobreed: i can tell them, which i have been doing23:19
sarobreed: but we need a one stop digital place to start a new 'person' off at23:19
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sarobreed: participation table is a rough example23:19
reedgot it... have you talked with Heidi about i?23:20
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sarobreed: at the summit yup23:20
sarobcircling back to her and lauren this week23:20
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reednice, I'm sure they may have more thoughts too23:21
sarobpublic now23:22
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sarobreed: wiki updated23:23
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sarobreed: so lets call this 'blueprint' done and hand off to heidi23:24
sarobreed: we help as they need?23:24
reedsounds good to me23:24
sarobreed: cool23:24
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sarobreed: okay, my other burning thought23:25
reedshe can pull from the wiki page and make a nicer looking html page on the site if needed23:25
sarobreed: certainly23:25
sarobreed: and i can help expand on some more thoughts when she is ready23:25
sarobreed: so the community training23:26
reed#topic community training23:26
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sarobreed: sweet23:26
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sarobreed: the first book is ready for a havana branch publish23:27
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sarobreed: its a rough draft, but ready enuf23:27
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reedI saw a message about that somewhere, cool23:27
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reed#info  the first book is ready for a havana branch publish23:28
sarobreed: do you have any thoughts on next steps?23:28
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sarobreed: im thinking publish link to training.openstack.org23:29
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sarobreed: plus aptira will be using most of the associate guide for their training classes23:29
sarobreed: anything else you think we should do?23:30
reedthat might work, I think Heidi and Mark own that page23:30
reedblog post?23:30
sarobreed: hmm like23:30
reedi love blog posts :) they're my cheap way to do press releases23:30
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reedwe may also want to ask teachers to look at it and let us know23:31
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sarobreed: hmm, right that reminds me23:31
reedmy friend prof. Verma at SF State will be interested23:31
reeddid I put you in touch with him already?23:32
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sarobreed: im really bad at collecting names and getting back to them, timely23:32
sarobreed: you did, i havent circled back with details yet23:32
reedok, this may be an excuse23:32
sarobreed: of?23:32
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reedso, I think we should push a blog post out with it and I'll ping Sameer Verma right after, putting you in CC23:33
sarobreed: /me has he figured out that i dont know what i am doing?23:33
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* sarob has he figured out that i dont know what i am doing?23:33
reedwe're all good at faking to know what we're doing :)23:33
sarobreed: hmm, yes23:33
reedwhat do you think should be in the blog post?23:34
reedanything you want to highlight?23:34
sarobreed: for training, its would be about23:34
sarobreed: community training purpose, history, next steps23:35
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reedare the quiz supposed to be in the manual?23:35
sarobreed: we should share a gsheet of universities that are openstack community interested23:36
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sarobreed: perhaps along with their interest and status23:36
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reedsarob, wiki page, better so we don't loose it23:36
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reedwe used to have an openstack academia group, we may want to revive it23:37
sarobreed: well, i would want our new friends getting spammed is all23:37
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sarobreed: ohh, openstack academia , sarob like much23:37
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sarobreed: okay, righto23:38
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reedthat effort kinda died down after an initial burst23:39
sarobreed: 87 members23:39
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reedthere was one guy getting his phd who was active at the beginning and then it got lost23:39
reedmaybe the scope was too broad? too shallow? not sure23:40
sarobreed: i think so23:40
reedthings have changed though, we may have more luck now if we want to reboot it23:40
sarobreed: a list of interested people, their interest, and status23:40
sarobreed: maybe add events23:41
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sarobreed: other than that, the rest should be just openstack projects23:41
sarobreed: like regular people ;)23:41
reedwe go back to the lack of visibility of people and members, activities23:42
reedevents, etc23:42
sarobreed: hmm, right23:42
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sarobreed: launchpad sucks as a community tool23:42
reedand to the user groups portal ... which is lagging behind the openid project23:42
sarobreed: communication tool23:42
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reedok, before I get depressed thinking about it, let's think about what we can do with what we have today23:43
sarobreed: well, we can steer students to user groups easy enough23:43
sarobreed: right you are23:43
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reedthe blog post could link to the wiki page23:44
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sarobreed: we need a list of names, email, university, interest, status23:44
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reedsince we moved all our lists off of launchpad, is it worth trying to create an openstack-academia list on lists.o.o?23:44
sarobreed: for unversity angle23:44
reeduniversity as in 'teaching openstack' or cloudy topics, right?23:45
reednot 'researching cloud stuff'23:45
sarobreed: sure, buuuut, we need to add those important attributes23:45
sarobreed: right, like teaching openstack23:45
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reedok, we know of a few universities that teach cloud using openstack23:46
sarobreed: the blog post can certainly request unversity prof, grads to reach out23:46
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sarobreed: other focus is user group education23:47
reedshall we ask them to subscribe to a mlist and introduce themselves?23:47
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reedor setup a google form?23:47
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sarobreed: if we could add the unversity, interest, status attributes to foundation members23:48
reedto ask them to answer a few questions?23:48
sarobreed: is that possible today?23:48
sarobreed: google form could def work23:48
reednot without a massive investment on my or Tom's side to convince the website developers to do things23:48
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sarobreed: okay np, google form is a good start23:49
reedso we could ask them there:23:49
sarobreed: it will dump into a gsheet, so that would be very useful23:49
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reeduniversity/affiliation, interest... what else?23:50
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sarobreed: status of work with openstack23:50
reeda Y/N flag like 'Would you like to be contacted by members of the community with additional questions'?23:50
reedemail ...23:50
sarobreed: thats good23:51
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reedthat should be a good way to get started23:51
sarobreed: some info about the community channel and mailling list23:51
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reedwhat do you mean?23:51
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sarobreed: provide a bit of openstack community info on the form in case it gets shared separate from the blog post23:52
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sarobreed: /me i feel productive23:53
reed#action write a blog post to announce the first release of training material23:53
sarobreed: my thoughts betray me23:53
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reed#action prepare a google form with intro to community and questions for teachers/profs about  university/affiliation, interest, status of work with openstack, email, a Y/N flag like 'Would you like to be contacted by members of the community with additional questions'23:54
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sarobreed: if you can approve the blueprint so others understand we agree23:55
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reed#action reed to send a draft of the blog post to the community list23:56
reedsarob, which bp exactly?23:56
sarobreed: id like to update the and pages as well23:56
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reedsarob, yeah... I think we should deprecate the launchpad team23:57
sarobreed: the
reedeither create a new mlist or use the community list (low enough traffic, I think)23:57
sarobreed: new mlist def23:57
reedwe could treat the academia circle as a Special Interest Group under the user groups umbrella23:58
sarobreed: i like that23:58
reedit's a conversation to have with fifieldt too23:58
sarobreed: cause im on a mission to create one new user group per quarter23:58
sarobreed: at universities23:59
sarobfifieldt and there you are23:59

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