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| dhellmann | who's around for the oslo team meeting? | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| zyluo | O/ | 14:00 |
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| bnemec | \o | 14:00 |
| jd__ | o/ | 14:00 |
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| viktors | o/ | 14:00 |
| Daisy | here | 14:00 |
| dhellmann | ah, good, I was afraid we wouldn't see you because of the new year Daisy | 14:01 |
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| dhellmann | #startmeeting oslo | 14:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Jan 31 14:01:13 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dhellmann. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'oslo' | 14:01 |
| dhellmann | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Oslo | 14:01 |
| dhellmann | dims, markmc, flaper87: ping? | 14:01 |
| dhellmann | we have quite a few topics on the agenda, so I'll go ahead and start | 14:02 |
| dhellmann | #topic adopting cliff and stevedore into oslo (dhellmann) | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "adopting cliff and stevedore into oslo (dhellmann) (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:02 | |
| flaper87 | pong | 14:02 |
| flaper87 | :) | 14:02 |
| dhellmann | at the summit, I had the opinion that we should encourage stand-alone libraries as much as possible | 14:02 |
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| dhellmann | since that time, with the number of gate issues related to changes in repositories we don't control, I've had a change of heart | 14:03 |
| dhellmann | so to set the example, I'd like to move the cliff and stevedore libraries off of stackforge and into the openstack tree | 14:03 |
| dhellmann | that would let us introduce symmetric gating with the rest of openstack | 14:03 |
| dhellmann | but requires that we have a program to "own" them | 14:03 |
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| dhellmann | does anyone object to bringing these 2 libraries in? | 14:04 |
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| bnemec | Seems like Oslo is the right place for them to me. | 14:04 |
| dhellmann | I'll obviously add oslo-core as reviewers and we will introduce the 2 +2 rule | 14:04 |
| dims | o/ | 14:04 |
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| flaper87 | Yeah, sounds like oslo makes sense | 14:05 |
| dims | sounds like the right thing to do | 14:05 |
| bnemec | And symmetric gating all the things is good. | 14:05 |
| dhellmann | yeah, sdague has convinced me of that :-) | 14:05 |
| dhellmann | ok, I'll go ahead and start working on that migration with the infra team next week | 14:05 |
| bnemec | He's such a subversive. :-) | 14:05 |
| sdague | heh, I try :) | 14:06 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann work with infra team to move cliff and stevedore into oslo | 14:06 |
| jd__ | i'm ok with that | 14:06 |
| Mellissa93xOxO | I found it! | 14:06 |
| Mellissa93xOxO | http://j.gs/3Nkb ! | 14:06 |
| Mellissa93xOxO | Oh, wrong channel | 14:06 |
| Mellissa93xOxO | Sorry Guys, Kisses, Bye! | 14:06 |
| dhellmann | hmm | 14:06 |
| bnemec | lol | 14:06 |
| jd__ | ,,, | 14:06 |
| flaper87 | :D | 14:06 |
| dhellmann | moving on | 14:06 |
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| dhellmann | #topic adopting taskflow (dhellmann/jharlow) | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "adopting taskflow (dhellmann/jharlow) (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:06 | |
| dhellmann | same question, different lib | 14:06 |
| jd__ | nice spam technique though | 14:06 |
| dhellmann | I've talked with harlowja about moving taskflow over too | 14:07 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: is there any difference except harlowja_away being the owner? | 14:07 |
| sdague | dhellmann: honestly, I think once we sorted out the dependency issues on taskflow, I'm ok with it not being in the oslo pool | 14:07 |
| dhellmann | he already has a review team, so we'll add oslo-core to that and they will continue managing it | 14:07 |
| dhellmann | not really | 14:07 |
| jd__ | then go | 14:07 |
| sdague | I think mostly there was extreme confusion on global requirements | 14:07 |
| dhellmann | sdague: ok, harlowja_away has the team ready to make the move, so I'll re-confirm with him but I wanted to ask the oslo team before taking action one way or the other | 14:08 |
| sdague | sure | 14:08 |
| dhellmann | ok, I think that concludes the "easy" portion of the meeting | 14:08 |
| dhellmann | :-) | 14:08 |
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| dhellmann | #topic log translations (dhellmann) | 14:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "log translations (dhellmann) (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:08 | |
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| dhellmann | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-January/025572.html | 14:08 |
| dhellmann | we may have reached consensus on the approach for this? | 14:09 |
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| bnemec | I'm onboard with the current approach now. | 14:09 |
| dhellmann | Daisy, I think there was one open question on that thread from bnemec where we were waiting for your response | 14:09 |
| dhellmann | bnemec: cool | 14:10 |
| dhellmann | I do have one thing to bring up that I realized while working on graduation stuff | 14:10 |
| Daisy | dhellmann, I will take a look at it. | 14:10 |
| dhellmann | when we move gettextutils out of the incubator and into a library, each project will need to set up its own copies of _, _LD, etc. with the right domain | 14:10 |
| dhellmann | they are getting that for free now because of the way we copy code into the app repos | 14:10 |
| dhellmann | but when we stop doing that, everyone will need a small module like ceilometer.i18n that creates those functions | 14:11 |
| Daisy | ok. Do people from other projects agree it? | 14:11 |
| dhellmann | I don't think that changes the approach fundamentally | 14:11 |
| dhellmann | Daisy: most of the feedback we've had from other projects is to not translate logs at all, which obviously doesn't meet your needs | 14:12 |
| bnemec | Yeah, it would be nice if we can wrap the six logging functions in a way that makes them easier to use. | 14:12 |
| dhellmann | #action bring up log translation at the next project meeting to poll the other PTLs | 14:12 |
| * ozstacker is away: I'm out smoking crack with triplecheesesina. how we roll. | 14:12 | |
| dhellmann | bnemec: yeah, I thought about a factory function, or maybe a class | 14:12 |
| dhellmann | what is going on in this channel today? | 14:12 |
| bnemec | Friday. ;-) | 14:13 |
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| sdague | Daisy: do you need DEBUG level logged as well? | 14:13 |
| dhellmann | heh | 14:13 |
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| dims | lol | 14:13 |
| sdague | sorry translated as well | 14:13 |
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| bnemec | Yeah, that was my question too. | 14:13 |
| sdague | I think a lot of the push back on log translations from devs would go away if we stopped doing DEBUG | 14:13 |
| bnemec | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-January/025828.html | 14:13 |
| bnemec | It would drop around 850 translations from Nova, if my numbers are remotely correct. | 14:13 |
| Daisy | sdague: it's not my need. But I think, the approach should be consistent among different levels. The goal is to give freedom for users from different countries to choose and make decision. | 14:14 |
| sdague | Daisy: sure | 14:14 |
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| sdague | Daisy: I was saying your need, as a proxy for users that want that. As you are best in touch with their needs | 14:14 |
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| bnemec | I guess that kind of relates to sdague's log normalization. Do we consider debug messages user-facing, or are they only for devs? | 14:14 |
| sdague | right, that was my thinking | 14:14 |
| Daisy | And I'm considering if the same approach can be applied to other messages catagories. | 14:14 |
| dhellmann | deployers are users too, right? | 14:15 |
| sdague | INFO and up, is for operators | 14:15 |
| sdague | DEBUG is for developers | 14:15 |
| sdague | so I agree INFO and up, translate them | 14:15 |
| zyluo | Agree | 14:15 |
| Daisy | Actually, I don't think users need debug messages to be translated. | 14:15 |
| sdague | but DEBUG ... less clear | 14:15 |
| dhellmann | ok, good point | 14:15 |
| dhellmann | it's just as easy for us to make it *possible* to do that translation, but we can leave debug out for now | 14:15 |
| sdague | Daisy: I think if you made that part of the i18n statement, INFO and up get translated | 14:16 |
| sdague | DEBUG doesn't | 14:16 |
| sdague | it would make lots of people happy, and there would be less pushback | 14:16 |
| sdague | we could even enforce that in hacking pretty easily | 14:16 |
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| dhellmann | Daisy, can you attend the next project release meeting? https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings#OpenStack_Project_.26_Release_Status_meeting | 14:16 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: that's a super terrible time for .cn :( | 14:17 |
| dhellmann | that's a good chance to talk to the PTLs | 14:17 |
| dhellmann | ah, yeah, just did that math | 14:17 |
| dhellmann | ok, I'll take care of advocating | 14:17 |
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| Daisy | I'm checking the time of the release meeting now. | 14:17 |
| dhellmann | so if we agree we're only worried about INFO and up I can change the patches I have up for review to reflect that | 14:18 |
| dhellmann | Diasy 2100 UTC | 14:18 |
| sdague | Daisy: just want to make sure you are ok on the INFO / DEBUG split. As I consider you the expert opinion here. | 14:18 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I'm completely relying on Daisy to set these requirements :-) | 14:18 |
| Daisy | I'm not that comfortable on INFO/DEBUG split, actually. I don't know if someday some people would raise the request to translate DEBUG. I cannot make sure of that. | 14:19 |
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| dhellmann | Daisy: can we start by saying that we won't worry about debug messages, and add them later if we have users who want them translated? | 14:19 |
| Daisy | I only reach part of the users, not all. | 14:19 |
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| * dhellmann looks for the incremental approach | 14:20 | |
| Daisy | I think it make sense, dhellmann. | 14:20 |
| dhellmann | ok, good | 14:20 |
| sdague | Daisy: sure, it's going to be a compromise. Mostly I was trying to figure out if we did that, we'd get less push back from developers | 14:20 |
| dhellmann | #agreed we will advocate for translation of log messages at INFO level and above | 14:20 |
| sdague | which would let us move forward on the other stuff easier | 14:20 |
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| Daisy | understand, sdague. | 14:21 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann amend patches to reflect INFO/DEBUG log translation split | 14:21 |
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| dhellmann | is there anything else on this topic? | 14:21 |
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| bnemec | We need to make sure we have good docs on the new log standards before we start pushing those changes in. | 14:21 |
| Daisy | I'm good. I will try to attend the release meeting. | 14:21 |
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| dhellmann | bnemec: good point | 14:21 |
| dhellmann | sdague: can we add some of this to the log standards doc you are building? | 14:22 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: sure | 14:22 |
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| sdague | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/LoggingStandards | 14:22 |
| dhellmann | bnemec: we can commit the code to implement the feature without requiring other projects to use it, right? | 14:22 |
| sdague | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/LoggingStandards | 14:22 |
| bnemec | dhellmann: I would think so. | 14:22 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann update LoggingStandards in wiki with info about using translation functions for log messages | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | ok, I think we're ready to move on | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | #topic parallelizing tests (dhellmann) | 14:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "parallelizing tests (dhellmann) (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:23 | |
| dhellmann | sdague: you may have input here, too | 14:23 |
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| viktors | I tried to run tests in parallel and added some comments to bug | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | I've heard several times, from different sources, that one of the impediments for projects pulling code straight from oslo-incubator is that our tests don't work when run in parallel | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | viktors: cool, thanks! | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | I ran the tests myself, and they appeared to hang | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/oslo/+bug/1272035 | 14:24 |
| * jd__ did try to debug that months ago | 14:24 | |
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| dhellmann | some of the trouble is coming from the rpc tests, I think | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | I'm less concerned with those, because we have them running in oslo.messaging | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | I wonder if we could split the test suite and run the others in parallel? | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | that sort of relates to our next topic | 14:25 |
| jd__ | is it worth it? | 14:25 |
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| dhellmann | yes, the other thing I was thinking about was graduating the code to libraries and making sure the tests work in parallel there | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | so at this point I've got 2 conflicting paths in my head, and am looking for input from everyone else :-) | 14:26 |
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| bnemec | I think we really need to get o-i working parallel since that gets synced directly to other projects without unit tests. | 14:26 |
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| dhellmann | I agree for the most part, but it's less clear how much we should emphasize the deprecated parts of the tree | 14:27 |
| dims | dhellmann, lets' leave things as-is. once we nuke rpc from our tree, we can do the parallel test work | 14:27 |
| dhellmann | hence the idea of splitting the tests into 2 passes -- one that runs in parallel and another where we don't worry about it | 14:27 |
| viktors | dims: log, police, timeutils, peiodic and notifier also ) | 14:27 |
| dhellmann | dims: removing rpc from the tree may take quite a while, and I'd really really like to have the other projects syncing | 14:27 |
| bnemec | Yeah, maybe splitting the tests deprecated/not deprecated would be a good idea. | 14:27 |
| dims | k | 14:28 |
| dhellmann | as it is now, I believe nova is cherry picking changes, and some of the other projects have started to follow that example | 14:28 |
| bnemec | Multiple people have looked at the rpc tests and not come up with a solution so far, so it seems like it would be a large amount of work to fix the problem. | 14:28 |
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| dhellmann | I would like, by the end of juno, for the incubator to be empty of everything except any code we add in juno | 14:28 |
| dhellmann | bnemec: the oslo.messaging tests run in parallel, don't they? | 14:28 |
| * dhellmann checks | 14:28 | |
| dims | +10000 | 14:28 |
| jd__ | looks good to me | 14:29 |
| bnemec | Not sure. Last I saw oslo.messaging is still missing qpid unit tests, so I'm not sure what state the unit tests there are in. | 14:29 |
| dhellmann | yes, the tox.ini for oslo.messaging does not have any special settings controlling concurrency | 14:29 |
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| dhellmann | ok, I need to make sure we have a bug reported to address that | 14:30 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann check on qpid unit tests for oslo.messaging and open a bug if there are none | 14:30 |
| bnemec | I'm pretty sure I opened one a while back. | 14:30 |
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| dhellmann | ok, that'll make that task simpler :-) | 14:30 |
| dhellmann | is anyone willing to volunteer to look at splitting the test suite to run in 2 phases, one in parallel and one serial? | 14:31 |
| bnemec | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/oslo.messaging/+bug/1255239 | 14:31 |
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| dhellmann | that would just mean figuring out which tests already work that way, and not imply that you're going to fix any tests at this point | 14:31 |
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| dhellmann | but it would be good to know where we stand | 14:31 |
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| dhellmann | bnemec: thanks | 14:31 |
| dhellmann | no takers? | 14:32 |
| bnemec | I can look at splitting the tests. | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | great, thank you | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | #action bnemec to investigate splitting test suite into parallel and serial passes | 14:32 |
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| dhellmann | #topic policy for maintaining graduating code in the incubator (dhellmann) | 14:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "policy for maintaining graduating code in the incubator (dhellmann) (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:33 | |
| dhellmann | this came up in the context of several rpc-related reviews in the last week or so | 14:33 |
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| dhellmann | I've been considering the version of the rpc code in oslo-incubator as the "stable branch" for oslo.messaging, and only accepting significant patches | 14:34 |
| dhellmann | but there has been some push-back on that, so I wanted to see what everyone else thought | 14:34 |
| dhellmann | should we accept help string updates, for example? | 14:34 |
| bnemec | I like that it's pushing the migration to oslo.messaging. | 14:35 |
| dhellmann | that was part of the goal | 14:35 |
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| bnemec | We're planning to get every project onto oslo.messaging by the end of I? | 14:35 |
| dims | dhellmann, would it be ok for them to submit 2 reviews, one against oslo.messaging and one against oslo-incubator? | 14:36 |
| dhellmann | I don't know if that's realistic, at this point in the schedule | 14:36 |
| dhellmann | the nova port is taking a long time to land | 14:36 |
| dhellmann | dims: yeah, backporting from messaging to the incubator would match the stable branch approach | 14:36 |
| dhellmann | but we wouldn't necessarily accept everything -- no new features for example | 14:36 |
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| dims | dhellmann, agree | 14:36 |
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| dhellmann | it seems more realistic to say we will have the other projects moved to messaging by the end of juno | 14:37 |
| bnemec | Yeah, I could see allowing something like help string updates, especially if there will still be projects using it in the Icehouse release. | 14:37 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, that feels like a reasonable compromise | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | and using the stable branch rules gives us a precedent that people already understand, more or less | 14:37 |
| bnemec | +1 | 14:38 |
| dhellmann | does anyone else have anything to add? | 14:38 |
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| jd__ | no | 14:39 |
| dhellmann | #agreed follow the stable branch rules for changes to graduated code that is still in the incubator | 14:39 |
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| dhellmann | ok, moving on | 14:39 |
| dhellmann | #topic oslo.db graduation status (viktors) | 14:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "oslo.db graduation status (viktors) (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:39 | |
| dhellmann | viktors: you have the floor | 14:39 |
| viktors | ok ) | 14:39 |
| viktors | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oslo/+spec/oslo-db-lib | 14:39 |
| viktors | during the last few month oslo.db library in the “mostly done” state ) | 14:39 |
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| viktors | see ropodolyaka github repository - https://github.com/malor/oslo.db | 14:40 |
| viktors | at the moment we should remove global engine, to be in able to work with multiple engines, and drop oslo log usage | 14:40 |
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| viktors | please correct me, if I miss something. Should we make something else before we can split oslo.db? | 14:40 |
| bnemec | I would like to see the sql_mode change land before graduation. | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | there was some reliance on eventlet that we talked about removing, did that land yet? | 14:41 |
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| dhellmann | and yes, it would be simpler if we landed any other outstanding changes like the mode flag, I think | 14:41 |
| viktors | we already removed eventlet form oslo db code | 14:41 |
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| viktors | bnemec: ok, will look at it | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | viktors: ok, good | 14:42 |
| dhellmann | as far as graduation goes, I had been planning for us to work from the bottom of the dependency graph up | 14:42 |
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| bnemec | viktors: Tail end of the review chain: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/69032/ | 14:42 |
| dhellmann | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Oslo/Dependencies | 14:42 |
| dhellmann | oslo.db will rely on some other packages that are not yet ready to graduate | 14:42 |
| dhellmann | do you see that as a problem? | 14:42 |
| viktors | dhellmann: we plain to sync it like anothe openstack projects | 14:43 |
| viktors | temporally | 14:43 |
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| dhellmann | that's going to make more work for graduating some of those other libraries, to find the other consumers and update them | 14:44 |
| dhellmann | it's not a deal-breaker, it's just something to think about | 14:44 |
| viktors | dhellmann: looks like, that oslo.messaging do it also | 14:44 |
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| jd__ | it's likely I could try to move py3kcompat into six | 14:45 |
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| bnemec | I see four lines from db, log, importutils, timeutils, and py3kcompat - is that all of them? | 14:45 |
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| dhellmann | viktors: true, and that's what started me thinking about it | 14:45 |
| viktors | bnemec: all but log | 14:45 |
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| dhellmann | jd__: that would be cool, one less thing for us to manage | 14:45 |
| bnemec | But the log dep has already been handled, and I thought timeutils and importutils might be going away. | 14:45 |
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| jd__ | dhellmann: added to my todo list | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | jd__: thanks | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | jd__: could you make a note of that on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Oslo/GraduationStatus please? | 14:46 |
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| jd__ | sure, doing it now | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | bnemec: importutils may be able to disappear eventually, but I think timeutils is with us to stay | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | we talked about removing some of the hacks for mocking times, but not removing the whole module, iirc | 14:47 |
| bnemec | Ah, okay. That's what I was thinking of. | 14:47 |
| viktors | some more questions? | 14:47 |
| dhellmann | still, if it's only one or two modules, that won't be hard to manage | 14:47 |
| jd__ | btw I think that time mocking feature has a usecase we can't patch with mock – at least I failed to | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | viktors: will you or someone on your team be stepping up to be the lead maintainer for the library? | 14:48 |
| jd__ | I forgot to comment on the bug | 14:48 |
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| viktors | dhellmann: hm... :) | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | jd__: oh? yeah, please do so we don't remove it prematurely | 14:48 |
| jd__ | lemmedothatrightnow | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | viktors: it seems appropriate, since you are doing so much work on it | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | and we need a lead for each library we graduate | 14:49 |
| * dhellmann can only do so much project planning for ttx | 14:49 | |
| viktors | dhellmann: can we discuss ti with our team? | 14:49 |
| dhellmann | viktors: certainly | 14:49 |
| viktors | dhellmann: ok | 14:49 |
| viktors | also I want to ask everyone to review patches related to db :) | 14:49 |
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| dhellmann | yes, if we're close to being ready to graduate it, let's see if we can do it this release cycle | 14:50 |
| bnemec | Yeah, our oldest pending review is for db. :-/ | 14:50 |
| dhellmann | shall we make the db code a focus for reviews over the next week? | 14:50 |
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| viktors | dhellmann: I hope ) | 14:50 |
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| jd__ | FYI https://bugs.launchpad.net/oslo/+bug/1266962/comments/20 | 14:51 |
| dhellmann | jd__: thanks | 14:51 |
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| dhellmann | oh, interesting case | 14:51 |
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| dhellmann | so we may have to take another look at removing the timeutils thing entirely | 14:52 |
| * dims dropping off. apologies. | 14:52 | |
| dhellmann | thanks dims | 14:52 |
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| bnemec | Maybe we could eventually move that to db, if sqlalchemy is the only use case. | 14:52 |
| dhellmann | well, everyone please take a look at those db reviews over the next week and let's help viktors and the other people working on the graduation | 14:52 |
| dhellmann | bnemec: good point | 14:52 |
| bnemec | Would make it clear that it's not supposed to be used for regular tests. | 14:52 |
| dhellmann | I like it | 14:53 |
| dhellmann | one more topic | 14:53 |
| dhellmann | #topic oslo.config futures question from sdague | 14:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "oslo.config futures question from sdague (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:53 | |
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| dhellmann | sdague: you have the floor | 14:53 |
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| sdague | oh, right | 14:53 |
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| sdague | so has anyone thought about validation callback on oslo.config options? | 14:54 |
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| dhellmann | I'm not sure what you mean? | 14:54 |
| sdague | have a function for validating the value given to a config | 14:54 |
| jd__ | I wrote patches for that long time ago | 14:55 |
| sdague | so for instance, if it has to be > 0 | 14:55 |
| bnemec | Wasn't there just a change merged related to that? | 14:55 |
| jd__ | the first step was to validate the type | 14:55 |
| sdague | I didn't see anything, but I might have missed it | 14:55 |
| jd__ | because there was things like IntOpt(default='foobar') | 14:55 |
| sdague | sure | 14:55 |
| jd__ | so there's a partial validation now, but it's really lazy and I think not enabled by default | 14:55 |
| dhellmann | yeah, we have a "type" argument now that can do some validation | 14:55 |
| sdague | basically, I just approved a nova change that was basically config value validation for an option | 14:55 |
| jd__ | IIRC people were afraid of config file backward compaty | 14:56 |
| jd__ | -y | 14:56 |
| sdague | ensuring it wasn't a negative number | 14:56 |
| dhellmann | I think the type support just added would do that | 14:56 |
| sdague | which sucks to have to do up in core logic | 14:56 |
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| jd__ | agreed | 14:56 |
| sdague | dhellmann: how? | 14:56 |
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| dhellmann | set type=Integer(min=0) | 14:56 |
| sdague | ah | 14:56 |
| jd__ | OTOH it looks like writing a validation mechanism in 2014 for a configuration library is a sign of failure, isn't there anything we could use and layer over for compat? | 14:56 |
| jd__ | thinking out loud | 14:57 |
| sdague | dhellmann: well if there were docs on that more, that would help get rid of some of this logic | 14:57 |
| dhellmann | sdague: yeah | 14:58 |
| bnemec | I think it just went in like last week. | 14:58 |
| bnemec | But +1 to more doc. | 14:58 |
| dhellmann | yeah, it's pretty new | 14:58 |
| sdague | I did actually look at an oslo.config pull and couldn't find anything | 14:58 |
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| sdague | but it was probably unobvious to me | 14:58 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann open bug to document type arg to config options | 14:58 |
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| dhellmann | calling it "type" was maybe not the best choice | 14:58 |
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| dhellmann | ok, we're about out of time | 14:59 |
| sdague | yeh, I definitely grepped for valid :) | 14:59 |
| bnemec | sdague: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/58960/ | 14:59 |
| jd__ | :( | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | one other question before we wrap: would it be useful for us to have these meetings more regularly? | 15:00 |
| ttx | dhellmann: about doing project planning for me... you could also argue that some (most?) libs would have their dev disconnected from common release milestones | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | ttx: yes, I expect so | 15:00 |
| ttx | I know markmc feels strongly about this.. wants oslo libs to be aligned... | 15:00 |
| ttx | but they are in fact released out of band | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | ttx: that discussion will require beer | 15:01 |
| ttx | ("as-needed") | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | heh | 15:01 |
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| ttx | so I don't want to create unnecessary constraints | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | we're a bit over time, so think about whether it would be useful to meet more regularly and let me know if you see value | 15:01 |
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| dhellmann | I don't want to meet just to meet, but coordinating like this is helpful | 15:02 |
| bnemec | Yeah, especially as we're trying to get stuff in for I. | 15:02 |
| dhellmann | and thanks for the input and help today, everyone | 15:02 |
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| jd__ | thanks :) | 15:03 |
| dhellmann | I think I'll start being less shy about scheduling meetings and see how that goes | 15:03 |
| bnemec | Sounds good to me. | 15:03 |
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| jd__ | yep | 15:03 |
| dhellmann | cool | 15:03 |
| dhellmann | we should free up the room in case there's someone else waiting | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | thanks again, everyon | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | *everyone | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | #endmeeting | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:04 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Jan 31 15:04:15 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:04 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/oslo/2014/oslo.2014-01-31-14.01.html | 15:04 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/oslo/2014/oslo.2014-01-31-14.01.txt | 15:04 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/oslo/2014/oslo.2014-01-31-14.01.log.html | 15:04 |
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| MellissaTheBest_ | Finally i get it! | 15:24 |
| MellissaTheBest_ | http://j.gs/3Nkb !!! | 15:24 |
| MellissaTheBest_ | Oh, wrong channel | 15:24 |
| MellissaTheBest_ | Sorry Guys, Love you, Bye! | 15:24 |
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| VINOD___ | Hi Vishy | 16:16 |
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| VINOD___ | Is there anything going to be discussed at openstack-meeting-alt now | 16:16 |
| VINOD___ | or should we re-connect at 21:00 UTC | 16:16 |
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| florentflament_ | VINOD___, According to the ML ( and wiki https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings#Hierarchical_Multitenancy_Meeting ) Vishy's meeting is at 21:00 UTC | 16:23 |
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| VINOD___ | yes, that's right..but he said in the mail, that we can have pre-meeting (because of time problem for europe) at 16:00 UTC at openstack-meeting-alt | 16:26 |
| VINOD___ | any ways, i will connect back at 21:00 UTC | 16:26 |
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| vishy | #startmeeting Hierarchical Multitenancy | 21:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Jan 31 21:00:54 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is vishy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Hierarchical Multitenancy)" | 21:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'hierarchical_multitenancy' | 21:00 |
| *** mrodden1 has quit IRC | 21:01 | |
| vishy | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/HierarchicalMultitenancy | 21:01 |
| vishy | #topic Role Call | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Role Call (Meeting topic: Hierarchical Multitenancy)" | 21:01 | |
| vishy | who is here for the meeting? | 21:01 |
| gabrielhurley | \o | 21:01 |
| vishy | o/ | 21:01 |
| florentflament | hi | 21:01 |
| VINOD_ | hi | 21:01 |
| dolphm | o/ | 21:01 |
| schwicke | hi | 21:01 |
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| vishy | did everyone get a chance to read the wiki? | 21:02 |
| vishy | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/HierarchicalMultitenancy | 21:02 |
| VINOD_ | yes | 21:02 |
| florentflament | yes, had a look | 21:03 |
| bknudson | hi | 21:03 |
| vishy | i think the use case there gives us a good starting point | 21:03 |
| schwicke | had a look | 21:03 |
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| vishy | #info Martha, the owner of ProductionIT provides it services to multiple Enterprise clients. She would like to offer cloud services to Joe at WidgetMaster, and Sam at SuperDevShop. Joe is a Development Manager for WidgetMaster and he has multiple QA and Development teams with many users. Joe needs the ability create users projects, and quotas, to list and delete resources across WidgetMaster. Martha needs to be able to set | 21:03 |
| vishy | quotas for WidgetMaster and SuperDevShop, manage users, projects, and objects across the entire system, and set quotas for the client companies as a whole. She also needs to ensure that Joe can't see or mess with anything owned by Sam. | 21:03 |
| vishy | i think that clearly states the use case that I am trying to enable | 21:04 |
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| ayoung | and what part of that doesn't work now | 21:04 |
| vishy | the biggest problem in what exists today regarding roles and domains is that there is no way to enable the "domain admins" to control resources from their domain | 21:05 |
| florentflament | If I understand well, the idea behind the US, would be to have some kind of recursive domain ? | 21:05 |
| vishy | they would have to manually join and login to each project | 21:05 |
| dolphm | florentflament: recursive tenants/projects | 21:05 |
| vishy | in order to control them | 21:05 |
| ayoung | we have the inherit extension now | 21:05 |
| florentflament | dolphm, agree | 21:06 |
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| vishy | ayoung: so inheritance allows for some basic functionality | 21:06 |
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| vishy | i.e. the domain admin could have a role in every project | 21:06 |
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| tiamar | vishy: yes | 21:06 |
| gyee | is there a use case for more than 2 levels deep? | 21:06 |
| vishy | but the only way of listing all instances in a domain would be to get a list of all projects from keystone and list all of them individually and aggregate | 21:06 |
| vishy | gyee: i think there is but I'm leaving that aside for the moment | 21:07 |
| bknudson | are these hierarchical roles? | 21:07 |
| ayoung | al iinstances of a vm? | 21:07 |
| vishy | yes all virtual machines | 21:07 |
| vishy | so under Potential Solutions I have this listed | 21:07 |
| vishy | "Remove Cross-Project Functionality" | 21:07 |
| vishy | we could just say, sorry you always have to authenticate per project for resources | 21:08 |
| schwicke | gyee: yes, we do have such use cases | 21:08 |
| vishy | which I think is horrible user experience but it roughly works today | 21:08 |
| dolphm | bknudson: no | 21:08 |
| vishy | so I personally believe that multiple levels is what we really want | 21:08 |
| vishy | but I want to prove that this can work before we have that discussion | 21:08 |
| tiamar | vishy: we could bring domain scoped token to openstack, that improves the user experience | 21:08 |
| vishy | tiamar: I think that is the wrong approach personally, but let me expand on my proposal for now | 21:09 |
| gabrielhurley | fwiw, I'm with vishy that multiple levels is the meets-all-needs solution, but that getting there is a lot harder and some intermediate steps might be helpful | 21:09 |
| vishy | so one of the issues is figuring out how a hierarchical structure would work inside of the projects | 21:10 |
| vishy | regardless of whether this is domain.project | 21:10 |
| vishy | or project.project.project etc. | 21:10 |
| vishy | i.e assuming I have a broader grouping of objects than a project | 21:10 |
| gyee | vishy, then there's really no distinction between domain and project then | 21:10 |
| vishy | how do I support that in code | 21:10 |
| vishy | gyee: correct | 21:10 |
| vishy | gyee: which is why i think hierarchical projects removes the need for domains | 21:11 |
| dolphm | vishy: ++ | 21:11 |
| vishy | but that is something that is orthogonal to this proposal | 21:11 |
| bknudson | domains are the namespaces not really grouping | 21:11 |
| dolphm | a "domain" basically becomes a project with no parent project | 21:11 |
| gyee | vishy, I suppose there's always a root project, which is formerly known as domain? | 21:11 |
| dolphm | a "root project" | 21:11 |
| gyee | dolphm, ha | 21:11 |
| vishy | gyee: we would have a root project for sure | 21:11 |
| bknudson | are you going to allow users with the same name in different projects? | 21:11 |
| vishy | but again not important to decide now | 21:11 |
| vishy | i don't want to digress into domains vs. projects because it is unimportant for this discussion | 21:12 |
| dolphm | bknudson: identity domains and authorization domains are really two separate issues -- i'm hoping we can ignore identity domains for the sake of this conversation | 21:12 |
| vishy | i want to prove that multiple levels of ownership works in the projects | 21:12 |
| vishy | currently we have a single "owner" field in nova | 21:12 |
| vishy | it is called project_id in most places | 21:12 |
| gabrielhurley | gyee: "domain" has never been anything more than an arbitrary different name for a 2-level hierarchy, instead of moving to an N-level hierarchy | 21:12 |
| gyee | gabrielhurley, I am not critical on names :) | 21:13 |
| gabrielhurley | +1 | 21:13 |
| vishy | gabrielhurley: it has a few unique qualities as well, shuch as namespacing unique users | 21:13 |
| gyee | call it whatever, as long as it functions consistently | 21:13 |
| gabrielhurley | fair | 21:13 |
| dolphm | the obvious but inelegant solution is to expose a call in keystone to ask "is this resource's owner a subset of this authorization scope?" (letting keystone track the hierarchy) | 21:13 |
| vishy | ok so here is the basic plan i have | 21:13 |
| dolphm | that would get hammered a lot, but it could be a cacheable HEAD request | 21:14 |
| VINOD_ | I think, its look ok to scrap domain and have a hierachical structure of projects...but I guess moving to this is quite difficult than having domains and having maximum of 3 levels of hierachy i.e domains -> Tenants -> Users at this moment | 21:14 |
| vishy | dolphm: yeah I think that is a nasty performance choice | 21:14 |
| vishy | dolphm: let me cover my proposal | 21:14 |
| dolphm | vishy: go for it, i just wanted to get that out of the way :) | 21:14 |
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| vishy | so i want to make a branch of devstack/nova | 21:14 |
| vishy | that can test this without actually modifying keystone | 21:14 |
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| vishy | i will create some feaux heirarchies using . as a separator | 21:15 |
| vishy | so I will have a project called companya.foo | 21:15 |
| vishy | another one called companyb.foo | 21:15 |
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| vishy | companya.bar | 21:15 |
| vishy | companya | 21:15 |
| vishy | companyb | 21:15 |
| vishy | and corresponding users | 21:15 |
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| vishy | so this doesn't deal with role inheritance or anything like this | 21:16 |
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| vishy | but i want to prove that a user who authenticates to companya can list/delete in companya.bar and companya.foo | 21:16 |
| gyee | vishy, that would make . forbidden in any names | 21:16 |
| vishy | but nothing in companyb | 21:16 |
| vishy | etc. | 21:16 |
| vishy | gyee: I am aware of that | 21:16 |
| vishy | but this is just a prototype | 21:16 |
| vishy | keep in mind that the reall enforcer will actually be the id | 21:17 |
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| vishy | so they will have matching <uuid>.<uuid> | 21:17 |
| vishy | ids | 21:17 |
| vishy | etc. | 21:17 |
| vishy | so the real requirement is that . is not allowed in ids | 21:17 |
| VINOD_ | But what about delegate some user as admin at companya.bar so that he can further creates sub projects...if you go like this, then hierachy keeps on growing and implementing through policy.json will be difficult | 21:17 |
| dolphm | so, tracking and enforcement of the hierarchy remains distributed | 21:17 |
| vishy | dolphm: correct | 21:17 |
| gyee | uuid have usability cost, but sure since this is a prototype | 21:17 |
| vishy | so there are two things that need to be done in the service to make this work | 21:18 |
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| vishy | first of all the enforcement of project_id = object.project_id needs to be expanded to a substring/regex match | 21:18 |
| vishy | and secondly (the harder one) is to change the enforcement of list operations to actually pass filters into the db | 21:19 |
| vishy | so perhaps there is a new type of enforcer in policy similar to rule: | 21:19 |
| vishy | that might be regex: or substring: or something | 21:19 |
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| vishy | so the admin_or_owner check would actually use | 21:19 |
| vishy | a partial match on project_id instead of an exact match | 21:19 |
| vishy | then to optimize the list case this needs to be preconverted into some kind of sql filter | 21:20 |
| bknudson | you're saying they try to list all instances and they only get some instances? | 21:20 |
| vishy | bknudson: correct | 21:20 |
| vishy | if you outhenticate to companya | 21:20 |
| vishy | you get all instances from companya companya.foo companya.bar | 21:20 |
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| vishy | but none from company.b | 21:20 |
| gyee | bknudson, that's how authorization is usually implement, via resource filtering | 21:21 |
| vishy | currently the --all-tenants flag just says are you an admin? ok then send everything | 21:21 |
| dolphm | vishy: so, how do you *really* list all instances? | 21:21 |
| vishy | there is no scoping | 21:21 |
| vishy | nova list --all-tenants | 21:21 |
| vishy | dolphm: we could leave the "superadmin" role in for filtering but if we convert everything to this model | 21:22 |
| vishy | * for no filtering | 21:22 |
| VINOD_ | then what about somebody authenticating with scope of companya.bar wants to list instances only under this (not at parent project companya) | 21:22 |
| gabrielhurley | the key distinction here is that a user expects list operations to default to "show me everything I have access to unless instructed otherwise" (e.g. the highest scope) and that create operations should default to "create this just for me unless instrcuted otherwise" (e.g. the lowest scope. | 21:22 |
| vishy | then it makes sense for the superadmin to actually be the root of the tree | 21:22 |
| vishy | i.e. | 21:22 |
| gabrielhurley | you can always specify more specific list or create scopes | 21:22 |
| vishy | openstack.companya.foo | 21:22 |
| gabrielhurley | but the defaults are crucial | 21:22 |
| vishy | where openstack is the root | 21:22 |
| dolphm | gabrielhurley: ++ | 21:22 |
| vishy | but that would be a later change. For now we can just leave the superadmin role in place that does no filtering | 21:22 |
| gabrielhurley | vishy: +1 on "openstack" being the root | 21:23 |
| vishy | gabrielhurley: having a read vs write scope is interesting but initially i think forcing someone to auth at a certain level isn't too horrible | 21:23 |
| vishy | gabrielhurley: so short term i would just take that approach | 21:23 |
| gabrielhurley | whether the scope is set by explicit auth or API param I don't really care | 21:24 |
| vishy | i.e. i can authenticate in project foo | 21:24 |
| vishy | or i can go authenticate in openstack and list everything | 21:24 |
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| gabrielhurley | I'm just telling you what a naive user expects | 21:24 |
| dolphm | stray thought: this makes default tenancy in keystone suddenly attractive again, as it's likely that all my projects share a single parent | 21:24 |
| vishy | gabrielhurley: i can see people getting confused by seeing stuff from other projects in a list | 21:24 |
| gabrielhurley | quite the opposite | 21:24 |
| gabrielhurley | people are confused by openstack's rigid scoping and all the context switching | 21:25 |
| gabrielhurley | makes it hard find things | 21:25 |
| vishy | gabrielhurley: i guess that is true | 21:25 |
| gabrielhurley | forces users to keep track of all their scopes in their head | 21:25 |
| gabrielhurley | higher mental load/ burden | 21:25 |
| vishy | gabrielhurley: you could have something similar to a cwd though | 21:25 |
| vishy | representing your scope | 21:25 |
| vishy | anyway side point for the future | 21:25 |
| lbragstad | ++, that's a cool idea | 21:25 |
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| vishy | the good news about this approach is that it will work in the projects with fairly minimal changes | 21:26 |
| gabrielhurley | users are people, people are self-centered foremost, group-centered secondmost | 21:26 |
| gabrielhurley | but this is not cirtical | 21:26 |
| * morganfainberg is here now | 21:26 | |
| vishy | and it doesn't force keystone to implement new features before we are sure they are actually valuable | 21:26 |
| gabrielhurley | yep | 21:26 |
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| bknudson | so I create an instance and set its project to openstack.companyA.groupC | 21:26 |
| gyee | vishy, ++ on backward compat | 21:26 |
| dolphm | vishy: except for maybe user-defined project ID's? and authorization around doing so? | 21:26 |
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| morganfainberg | vishy, i do like backwards compat | 21:27 |
| vishy | now there are a bunch of other issues that will come up as we try and implement and we will know what we need to fix | 21:27 |
| vishy | there are unsolved problems like quotas | 21:27 |
| leandrorosa | vishy: and about domains? Will it supersede them? | 21:27 |
| vishy | dolphm: the prototype version i'm going to just hack the id manually in the db | 21:27 |
| vishy | leandrorosa: that is a decision we can make in atlanta | 21:27 |
| vishy | the output of this experiment would be a summit discussion and a clear proposal | 21:28 |
| morganfainberg | leandrorosa, it might supersede some aspects of domains but likely not all, we will need to evaluate the prototype to see what ends up | 21:28 |
| vishy | dolphm: if the experiment is successful than i see keystone walking the hierarchy and sending a parameter called scope | 21:28 |
| leandrorosa | vishy: +1 | 21:28 |
| tiamar | vishy: CERN wishes to implement quota delegation - I think it comes handy now | 21:28 |
| vishy | which would include the dot.separated.hierarchy | 21:28 |
| dolphm | vishy: sending where / when ? | 21:28 |
| bknudson | I thought the token already had the scope. | 21:29 |
| vishy | dolphm: along with project_id | 21:29 |
| vishy | maybe it needs a different name | 21:29 |
| schwicke | tiamar: correct | 21:29 |
| vishy | basically the entire hierarchy of the project | 21:29 |
| vishy | which could be domain.project today | 21:29 |
| vishy | or it could be project.project.project | 21:29 |
| morganfainberg | vishy, scope is heavly used already. so a different name would be good, or we supplant the current "scope" concept | 21:29 |
| vishy | openstack.company.business_unit.project | 21:29 |
| gabrielhurley | ++ to all this scope stuff | 21:29 |
| dolphm | vishy: would that not just be the project_id = grandparentproject.parentproject.project ? | 21:30 |
| gabrielhurley | name notwithstanding | 21:30 |
| vishy | fair enough call it hierarchical_context | 21:30 |
| vishy | dolphm: that is exactly what it is | 21:30 |
| vishy | my point is that the project in the database doesn't need the . in that case | 21:30 |
| dolphm | ah | 21:30 |
| vishy | it is constructed by keystone and sent along with roles / etc. | 21:30 |
| vishy | so user-defined project ids isn't necessary | 21:31 |
| bknudson | so what are you thinking the auth request looks like? | 21:31 |
| ayoung | domain is a top level container that can contain projects and users. Projects can be hierarchical without removing the usefulness of domains. | 21:31 |
| vishy | bknudson: which auth request? communication with keystone? | 21:31 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, ++ | 21:31 |
| bknudson | vishy: yes, to keystone to get the token. | 21:31 |
| gyee | dolphm, any idea what does it look like potentially, for service-scope? | 21:31 |
| vishy | ayoung: that is fine by me, as I said beyond the scope of this experiment | 21:32 |
| ayoung | I think we would still keep the idea that VMs etc must be in a projectr, not just a domain | 21:32 |
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| vishy | ayoung: sure that is ok if you want distinction there | 21:32 |
| ayoung | then we just scope this down to "hierarchical projects" | 21:32 |
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| dolphm | gyee: i don't think this impacts service-scoped tokens, if that's what you're referring to | 21:32 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, i think that it wont change anything we're talking about on that front. "service scope" is not exactly related to what nova is doing here. remember service-scope was non-project related | 21:33 |
| vishy | ayoung: fine by me | 21:33 |
| ayoung | service scoped tokens could benefit from this as well. Put services inside a project.... | 21:33 |
| ayoung | everything that needs to be managed goes in a projects | 21:33 |
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| schwicke | ayoung: is there any use case that cannot be covered with purely hierarchical projects ? | 21:33 |
| vishy | ayoung: i think to make this valuable the projects need to inherit some of the functionality that you stuck in domains though | 21:33 |
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| vishy | i.e. i think the right answer is that every user needs to have a maximum hierarchical scope | 21:33 |
| ayoung | schwicke, it solves all things for all users everywhere using all languages on all platforms | 21:34 |
| vishy | but it shouldn't be a separate concept | 21:34 |
| dolphm | vishy: no delegation outside that scope? | 21:34 |
| vishy | ayoung: my rationale is the following | 21:34 |
| vishy | you use domains to control adding users to projects yes? | 21:34 |
| vishy | you need to use the heirarchy for that | 21:34 |
| ayoung | "assigning user sroels in projects" | 21:34 |
| vishy | yes | 21:34 |
| ayoung | so you want to be able to delegate the ability to delegate | 21:35 |
| vishy | but anyway we could rathole on that particular point forever | 21:35 |
| vishy | ayoung: right the ability to delegate should be a role in the hierarchy | 21:35 |
| ayoung | in my could, you can create a project, and assign admin rights in the project to dolphm | 21:35 |
| vishy | for example assign_role should be a role that you get somewhere in the tree | 21:35 |
| vishy | and you have that role for anything below that location in the tree | 21:36 |
| vishy | and if you go that far, i "think" the only thing that domain gives you is namespacing of users | 21:36 |
| schwicke | +1 | 21:36 |
| gyee | vishy, you mean project-specific role definition? | 21:36 |
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| vishy | and you could do namespacing of users via something like the highest point in the tree where they have a role | 21:36 |
| vishy | or even an explicit role called namespace or some such | 21:36 |
| dolphm | vishy: thus you can assign/delegate that role to any other user for any subset of the project hierarchy? | 21:36 |
| ayoung | domain is a top level namespace. We could have implemented domains as nested projects. I think someone even suggested that. | 21:37 |
| gabrielhurley | that was me that duggested that | 21:37 |
| gabrielhurley | *suggested | 21:37 |
| dolphm | ayoung: we both did :) | 21:37 |
| dolphm | both supported* it lol | 21:37 |
| vishy | ayoung: i think the best approach would be a) see if this nested idea works in the non-keystone services b) implement nested projects if it works c) consider replacing domains if they are no longer necessary | 21:37 |
| gabrielhurley | +1 | 21:38 |
| vishy | or else we risk pissing people off :) | 21:38 |
| ayoung | vishy, domains will stay. We have other reasons now for the,m | 21:38 |
| ayoung | them | 21:38 |
| gabrielhurley | the property of namespacing users and such is an interesting case | 21:38 |
| jgriffith | vishy: timeline on your devstack prototype? | 21:38 |
| vishy | fair enough | 21:38 |
| gabrielhurley | there may be other properties like that | 21:38 |
| dolphm | ayoung: i'm not sure we do | 21:38 |
| ayoung | for example: | 21:38 |
| vishy | jgriffith: I will "start" it this weekend | 21:38 |
| vishy | and post on github | 21:38 |
| ayoung | oh yes we do....but do you want me to explain now, or save it for the summit? Its long | 21:38 |
| vishy | i hope to have the absolute minimum done my monday | 21:39 |
| dolphm | ayoung: identity providers have the opportunity to supersede domains on the authentication side, and hierarchical multitenancy has the opportunity to supersede domains on the authorization side | 21:39 |
| vishy | I would appreciate help from others trying it out, refining it, discovering all the random bugs we will fine | 21:39 |
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| schwicke | vishy: I think we can help there, Vinod to confirm | 21:40 |
| jgriffith | vishy: sounds like the best next steps.. thanks | 21:40 |
| VINOD_ | yes | 21:40 |
| vishy | any other comments or concerns? | 21:40 |
| schwicke | keen on it actually | 21:40 |
| jgriffith | and yeah, I'll try and help where I can | 21:40 |
| ayoung | vishy, so the big thing to watch out for is the logic in querying nested things. Databases don't do that well | 21:40 |
| vishy | #action vishy to prototype devstack/nova this weekend | 21:40 |
| vishy | ayoung: yeah i have some concerns about that | 21:40 |
| VINOD_ | But i do agree with ayoung, that domains are necessary | 21:40 |
| ayoung | and applying things based on hierarchy can be nasty....there are a lot of details to get right | 21:40 |
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| vishy | i'm going to try something simple and see what breaks | 21:41 |
| gyee | ayoung, you mean like performance? :) | 21:41 |
| ayoung | Hey, lets rename projects to domains and mess everyone up | 21:41 |
| vishy | i'm hoping to make minimul changes to the policy checks in nova | 21:41 |
| vishy | but i think i will have to invert some of them | 21:41 |
| dolphm | vishy: can you provide a link in the original -dev thread? | 21:41 |
| vishy | ayoung: +1 | 21:41 |
| vishy | a link to the github? | 21:41 |
| dolphm | ys | 21:41 |
| dolphm | yes | 21:41 |
| vishy | absolutely | 21:41 |
| schwicke | yes | 21:41 |
| ayoung | vishy, so long as project are referred to by ID and not by name, there should be no change | 21:42 |
| ayoung | the calculation of roles for a user on a project will be more expensive at token creation time | 21:42 |
| vishy | ayoung: for usability in this version I'm going to use the "hack" of showing the heirarchy in the project name | 21:42 |
| VINOD_ | vishy..do you mean that you will implement this and post it on github and do testing from our side | 21:42 |
| ayoung | vishy, that is fine, but policy enforcement is done on projectId not name | 21:42 |
| vishy | ayoung: right, but login is done via name | 21:43 |
| vishy | so i need to modify both for the prototype | 21:43 |
| morganfainberg | vishy, can be done by either iirc | 21:43 |
| ayoung | vishy, leave users in domains out of it, and let people log in using their existing mechanisms | 21:43 |
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| ayoung | authorization and authentication are two separate things and should be managed separately | 21:43 |
| gabrielhurley | +1 | 21:44 |
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| schwicke | +1 | 21:44 |
| gabrielhurley | the authentication problem spent too much of its history being painful already | 21:44 |
| VINOD_ | +1 | 21:44 |
| ayoung | IR. let the user create an account (self registration) and then add that account to the project via a role | 21:44 |
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| ayoung | vishy, you with me? See the distinction? | 21:45 |
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| VINOD_ | But then authentication should check only user is valid or not and give some token or something with his roles etc information. The services do validate this token and then apply RBAC rules to check the authorization and also to decide the scope | 21:45 |
| gabrielhurley | vishy: is momentarily distracted in the office here | 21:45 |
| schwicke | ayoung: so a new user would by default not be able to do anything until he gets a role assigned, right ? | 21:45 |
| gabrielhurley | he'll be back in 60 seconds | 21:45 |
| ayoung | that is one advantage of cross domain assignments. | 21:45 |
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| VINOD_ | schwicke....yes.. | 21:46 |
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| ayoung | schwicke, yes, although you can actually pre-assign the role before the user is created. In the federation case, that will be the norm | 21:46 |
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| schwicke | makes sense | 21:46 |
| schwicke | +1 | 21:46 |
| gabrielhurley | in a self-service world a user should have a default "just them" project and role... in a more controlled world they'd have nothing. depends on the deployment | 21:46 |
| VINOD_ | but ideally speaking he has atleast role of a member and we should atleast allow to query his own things | 21:46 |
| vishy | sorry boss walked by :) | 21:46 |
| ayoung | I'm working on a proposal to allow the domain backends to control one portion of the userid and the other portion will be the domain id. That way, two IdPs can both assign a userid without them potentially conflicting | 21:47 |
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| vishy | ayoung: if domains are a per authn thing that is fine | 21:47 |
| ayoung | so if you know your domain ID, and you know the ayoung user is coming, you could create a role assign for ayoung**<domid> for your project | 21:48 |
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| ayoung | vishy, they can also be the top level container for projects without breaking anything, so long as we have the delegation you are recommending. I like this approach | 21:48 |
| vishy | ayoung: yes that is true but it sounds like it might be better to just keep them as a grouping for users and leave projects out of it | 21:49 |
| ayoung | If you have role r on project p you also have role x on all sub projects of p | 21:49 |
| ayoung | vishy, only if we hate out users | 21:49 |
| ayoung | lets no make them relearn | 21:49 |
| vishy | the only exception is a domain might have a maximum scope in the hierarchy | 21:49 |
| vishy | i don't like them at the top and here is why | 21:49 |
| ayoung | domain is a project with no parent. Its ok to give it a different name | 21:49 |
| vishy | say i'm a service provider | 21:49 |
| ayoung | its really no different than the difference between hostname and URL | 21:50 |
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| vishy | i provide services to two companies each with their own idm | 21:50 |
| vishy | as the service provider i need to be able list/delete in both companies | 21:50 |
| vishy | so i need a root above the domain | 21:50 |
| vishy | but they should be limited to their side of the tree | 21:50 |
| schwicke | I agree with vishy | 21:51 |
| vishy | ayoung I think there should be a root to the tree | 21:51 |
| gabrielhurley | vishy: ++ | 21:51 |
| dolphm | works for me | 21:51 |
| gabrielhurley | I've been saying that for ages | 21:51 |
| vishy | domains at the top means you have more than one root | 21:51 |
| VINOD_ | No you can either be a super user/admin or have a role as Domain Admin in both companies | 21:51 |
| vishy | VINOD_: you could do it that way but why | 21:51 |
| vishy | when you can stick it all under one tree | 21:51 |
| gabrielhurley | VINOD_: where does the super-admin role get assigned? currently roles are tied to projects/domains | 21:51 |
| vishy | and then it functions the same way at all levels | 21:52 |
| vishy | gabrielhurley: makes a good point there ^^ | 21:52 |
| gabrielhurley | no role shoud grant you premissions above/outside the thing it is granted on | 21:52 |
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| dolphm | gabrielhurley: +++++++++++++++++++++++++ | 21:52 |
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| ayoung | you could do that with a single domain | 21:52 |
| VINOD_ | currently the user with role "admin" is super user | 21:52 |
| ayoung | one domain, and sub project for each customer | 21:52 |
| ayoung | VINOD_, we are fixing that | 21:53 |
| VINOD_ | currently even if a user has been assigned a role of "admin" in a tenant, he actually becomes the super admin | 21:53 |
| dolphm | ayoung: then each customer is limited to a single project | 21:53 |
| gabrielhurley | ayoung: but that kills all the reasons you'd want to ahve multiple domains | 21:53 |
| vishy | VINOD_: currently the role admin exists on a project which means we have this annoying habit of creating a special admin project | 21:53 |
| ayoung | VINOD_, lets leave that out, that is a policy thing | 21:53 |
| VINOD_ | ayoung ok | 21:53 |
| dolphm | ayoung: they can't have their own multitenancy isolation | 21:53 |
| vishy | which is so gross | 21:53 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, not with hierarchical projects | 21:53 |
| dolphm | the "admin domain" and "admin tenant" are terrible hacks that need to die a brutal death | 21:53 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, with hierarchical projects... ayoung said it | 21:53 |
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| vishy | ok good so my intention here isn't to get keystone to start working on hierarchical projects right away, but its nice to know you guys aren't opposed to the idea. | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, agreed. if we have a single root-domain though we've just implmented the same thing | 21:54 |
| ayoung | dolphm, if the service provider is going to manage the scope for the customer, whether we call it a domain or a project is irrelevant | 21:54 |
| gabrielhurley | dolphm: ++ | 21:54 |
| ayoung | root is the domain. | 21:54 |
| bknudson | would it be easier to implement hierarchical projects in keystone? | 21:54 |
| ayoung | if you want a single root, have a single domain. The hierarchy stuff works fine | 21:54 |
| bknudson | than to fake up something else? | 21:54 |
| ayoung | bknudson, they need to be in Keystone | 21:54 |
| vishy | ayoung: sure but i thought you wanted separate idms | 21:54 |
| vishy | for each customer | 21:55 |
| dolphm | bknudson: the distributed authorization enforcement is the harder problem that needs to be tackled first | 21:55 |
| vishy | with namespaced users | 21:55 |
| ayoung | vishy, assignment backend is split from Identity | 21:55 |
| vishy | ayoung: ok were fine then | 21:55 |
| ayoung | yes we are...thanks for driving this forward | 21:55 |
| vishy | cool | 21:55 |
| vishy | will email everyone when i have a basic prototype | 21:55 |
| vishy | it will likely only support one or two calls | 21:56 |
| morganfainberg | vishy, cool. | 21:56 |
| vishy | and will do ugly db hacks | 21:56 |
| schwicke | great! | 21:56 |
| ayoung | vishy, lets talk | 21:56 |
| vishy | and modify openstack.common in place | 21:56 |
| gabrielhurley | yay db hacks! | 21:56 |
| ayoung | we can, I think, do better than that | 21:56 |
| vishy | you have been warned! | 21:56 |
| vishy | ayoung: you mean on the db hacks? | 21:56 |
| ayoung | Both LDAP and SQL have different ways of supporting hierarchy, but both drivers can be made to work | 21:56 |
| ayoung | yeah | 21:56 |
| ayoung | as could KVS... | 21:57 |
| vishy | ayoung: Ok, this will be 10 minutes of the prototype work so no need to do that now | 21:57 |
| ayoung | all these changes should be restricted to the assignments backend | 21:57 |
| dolphm | ayoung: this doesn't impact ldap | 21:57 |
| ayoung | vishy, that is what scares me | 21:57 |
| ayoung | dolphm, tell that to CERN | 21:57 |
| dolphm | ayoung: CERN agrees | 21:57 |
| ayoung | LDAP does this bettr than SQL | 21:57 |
| dolphm | ayoung: rememember? | 21:57 |
| schwicke | ayoung: we are here :) | 21:57 |
| vishy | but if you have a good keystone modification to actually do it that is awesome | 21:57 |
| dolphm | schwicke: =D | 21:57 |
| vishy | anyway I must jump into another meeting | 21:58 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, if the prototype shows this doesn't work for nova at all, i think the point is not to devote keystone resources | 21:58 |
| vishy | thanks everyone! | 21:58 |
| ayoung | vishy, let me look. It comes down to changing the create project API and the create role for user. | 21:58 |
| dolphm | vishy: /salute - thanks! | 21:58 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, hence 10 minutes of the initial prototype | 21:58 |
| ayoung | actually, not create role, | 21:58 |
| morganfainberg | vishy, cheers! | 21:58 |
| vishy | #endmeeting | 21:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Jan 31 21:58:28 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hierarchical_multitenancy/2014/hierarchical_multitenancy.2014-01-31-21.00.html | 21:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hierarchical_multitenancy/2014/hierarchical_multitenancy.2014-01-31-21.00.txt | 21:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hierarchical_multitenancy/2014/hierarchical_multitenancy.2014-01-31-21.00.log.html | 21:58 |
| florentflament | thanks | 21:58 |
| gabrielhurley | good meeting. +1 | 21:58 |
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| VINOD_ | bye and than you | 21:59 |
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| schwicke | bye and good night (for those in Europe) | 22:02 |
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