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| slong_ | ping loquacities | 03:00 |
|---|---|---|
| loquacities | heya slong_ | 03:00 |
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| slong_ | just confirming, our mtg is tomorrow? | 03:01 |
| slong_ | :) | 03:01 |
| loquacities | yep | 03:01 |
| slong_ | the upstream calendar hasn't been updated (apparently). | 03:01 |
| slong_ | I don't use it, but others here do. | 03:01 |
| loquacities | http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20140205T03&p1=0&p2=47 | 03:01 |
| slong_ | :) | 03:02 |
| loquacities | yeah, i don't use it either, coz you need to manually download it again every time | 03:02 |
| loquacities | .ics is a horrible format | 03:02 |
| slong_ | agreed. | 03:02 |
| slong_ | However. | 03:02 |
| slong_ | Does Anne have to update that? | 03:02 |
| loquacities | i thought she had | 03:02 |
| slong_ | ok, will ask deepti to ask on the mailing list. Hey, have another question. Want to be the fount of all knowledge today? | 03:03 |
| loquacities | lol | 03:03 |
| loquacities | i'll do my best ;) | 03:03 |
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| slong_ | I'd like to do a bit of reorg on the Config Ref and move some things over to the Cloud Admin Guide. | 03:03 |
| loquacities | according to anne's email: "Thierry Carrez, myself, and probably others have access to that calendar." | 03:03 |
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| loquacities | oh, good plan | 03:03 |
| slong_ | Will I be stepping on anyone's toes for that? | 03:04 |
| loquacities | hrm, i don't think so | 03:04 |
| loquacities | i was supposed to be working on that, but i've been called away to internal rackspace things recently | 03:04 |
| loquacities | so i've dropped the ball there | 03:04 |
| slong_ | Cool, and is Nermina working on the cloud reorg still? Have you seen that? She's somehow never on when I am to ask. | 03:04 |
| loquacities | i'm not certain, quite honestly | 03:05 |
| loquacities | i never see much of her either | 03:05 |
| slong_ | Hard being on the other side of the planet, seriously. | 03:05 |
| loquacities | yep, i get it | 03:05 |
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| slong_ | ok, well, we can have a whole chat tomorrow then. Many thanks. | 03:05 |
| loquacities | although, you guys have been going gangbusters recently, so maybe we're starting to tip the scales towards AU a little recently ;) | 03:05 |
| loquacities | np | 03:06 |
| loquacities | while you're here ... when did you want to catch up? | 03:06 |
| slong_ | Put aus on the map, dang it. | 03:06 |
| loquacities | and what kind of format do you think it should take? | 03:06 |
| loquacities | :) | 03:06 |
| slong_ | Hey, you could come in for aus meeting, we'll provide the donuts? | 03:06 |
| slong_ | the aus meeting... | 03:06 |
| loquacities | oh, now there's an idea | 03:06 |
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| slong_ | ja, wah? | 03:07 |
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| loquacities | wanna book a room over at RH, and i'll pop in around 12:30? | 03:07 |
| slong_ | Two weeks from now will give Dehlia time to organise? | 03:07 |
| loquacities | yeah, sounds great | 03:07 |
| loquacities | so, the 19th | 03:08 |
| loquacities | is there anyone else you know of who is contributing to openstack in BNE? | 03:08 |
| slong_ | Very cool, yep I'll email her right now. How about pizza, just realised it's lunch? | 03:08 |
| loquacities | (and isn't at RH) | 03:08 |
| loquacities | pizza is good :) | 03:08 |
| slong_ | Nope, it's just us I believe. | 03:08 |
| loquacities | neat | 03:08 |
| loquacities | will be weird being at RH on rackspace business ;) | 03:09 |
| slong_ | :) | 03:09 |
| slong_ | Will go set up for the 18th. | 03:09 |
| loquacities | although i did drop in the other day to have a stickybeak at L3 ;) | 03:09 |
| loquacities | 19th ... | 03:09 |
| slong_ | dang dark calendar | 03:10 |
| slong_ | Anyhoo. | 03:10 |
| loquacities | :) | 03:10 |
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| sc68cal | aveiga: morning | 13:56 |
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| aveiga | o/ | 13:57 |
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| sc68cal | alright - let's get this show on the road | 13:59 |
| aveiga | +1 | 13:59 |
| sc68cal | #startmeeting neutron_ipv6 | 13:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 4 13:59:35 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 13:59 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6' | 13:59 |
| sc68cal | #topic recap previous meeting | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "recap previous meeting (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:00 | |
| sc68cal | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Neutron-IPv6-Subteam#Agenda_for_Feb_4th Agenda for today | 14:01 |
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| sc68cal | Looks like shshang isn't here yet | 14:01 |
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| sc68cal | So, last week I had an action to rebase the review and add the second ipv6 attribute to subnets | 14:03 |
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| sc68cal | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/52983/ Create new IPv6 attributes for Subnets | 14:03 |
| sc68cal | So at this point it's just fixing some issues with the migration and db models to make them play nice with postgresql | 14:04 |
| sc68cal | shshang has a review that we're trying to get rebased on top of that review, so the gate will test it properly | 14:05 |
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| aveiga | is that the one that the of you were working out in #openstack-neutron last week? | 14:05 |
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| baoli | sc68cal, one question with this review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/58186/. Is it completely abandoned? shshang's new review covers dhcp. What about the remaining changes in 58186? | 14:06 |
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| sc68cal | baoli: I imagine that will be rebased | 14:06 |
| aveiga | baoli: I think that one is abandoned, as it's using an old model | 14:06 |
| aveiga | that was basing on running the entire dhcpv6 server out of the router space | 14:07 |
| shshang | Yes, that one is abandoned | 14:07 |
| sc68cal | ah whoops | 14:07 |
| baoli | ok. | 14:07 |
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| sc68cal | For some reason I was thinking the IPV6 SLAAC blueprint - which was just abandoned this morning | 14:07 |
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| baoli | So the changes in the firewall module is no longer needed with this new model | 14:08 |
| aveiga | which changes? | 14:08 |
| baoli | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/58186/2/neutron/agent/linux/iptables_firewall.py | 14:09 |
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| shshang | The firewall changes, I think, is duplicating with DaoZhao's code | 14:09 |
| aveiga | +1 | 14:09 |
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| sc68cal | I think it actually duplicates this | 14:09 |
| aveiga | it's necessary, but will be compartmentalized to be added only for gateway IPs | 14:10 |
| aveiga | and that's what DaoZhao's working on | 14:10 |
| xuhanp | hello everyone, sorry for being late | 14:10 |
| sc68cal | https://github.com/netoisstools/neutron/commit/cecd7591533e2c046aedba3b8e5d14a5b2fa7fe9 | 14:10 |
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| shshang | Hey, xuhanp | 14:10 |
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| xuhanp | hey. sorry for interrupting, pleaes continue. | 14:10 |
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| baoli | got it. | 14:11 |
| sc68cal | shshang: Do you have the link handy for the blueprint for horizon that we needed to register? | 14:11 |
| sc68cal | I have an old one - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/neutron-subnet-mode-support | 14:12 |
| shshang | No....I didn't register one yet for horizon....Sorry about that. :( | 14:12 |
| shshang | Will do today | 14:12 |
| sc68cal | shshang: OK - well let's just repurpose the one I created a while back | 14:12 |
| sc68cal | #action sc68cal edit horizon blueprint to match new attribute blueprints in neutron | 14:13 |
| absubram | Hi can we add some more details to that Horizon bp please? | 14:13 |
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| sc68cal | #topic blueprints | 14:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:14 | |
| sc68cal | absubram: Yes - do you have any suggestions? | 14:14 |
| sc68cal | Alright. Moving on | 14:15 |
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| baoli | sc68cal, shshang, one more question regarding the abandoned review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/58186/2/neutron/agent/l3_agent.py. what happens to that change? | 14:15 |
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| absubram | well I am new to this.. but I was taking a look at it from what needed to be done in Horizon.. and I am not really sure what the ipv6 effort adds from neutron.. | 14:16 |
| absubram | so maybe just some whiteboard notes | 14:16 |
| shshang | The l3_agent function will be carried onto icehouse release. I am waiting for Randy to join. He owns that piece | 14:16 |
| sc68cal | baoli: Check out shshang's new review https://webmail.comcast.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=QxLI8ZBxq0GPzZXTFxWndIhLZPRF9dAIqAyUc7s4-RSvq9I03V1QBlP0VXz43dUkRD1zumO4wBI.&URL=https%3a%2f%2freview.openstack.org%2f70649 | 14:16 |
| sc68cal | shit | 14:16 |
| absubram | that way it'd be easier to figure out what needs to be done from Horizon to support this? | 14:16 |
| sc68cal | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70649/ | 14:16 |
| aveiga | absubram: the horizon piece is going to need to reflect the new options we're adding to the API | 14:16 |
| shshang | I am only working on the tenant network side | 14:17 |
| aveiga | there are two keywords going in for managin IPv6 subnets | 14:17 |
| shshang | and Randy is working on the external network side | 14:17 |
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| baoli | shshang, another BP or a bug? | 14:18 |
| absubram | aveiga: thanks! can we add that detail and what the new keywords are? In the horizon bp.. | 14:18 |
| aveiga | absubram: Yes, because it will be directly linked to the other BP covering said attributes | 14:18 |
| sc68cal | absubram: there's a link to the neutron bp in the description for the horizon bp | 14:19 |
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| shshang | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/ipv6-two-attributes | 14:19 |
| absubram | ok thanks! | 14:19 |
| absubram | will look at it | 14:19 |
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| aveiga | absubram: you might want to go back and take a look at our past meeting minutes to catch up, there's a lot we've discussed previously that explains why we're doing what we're doing: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Neutron-IPv6-Subteam | 14:20 |
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| baoli | shshang, so this BP will also cover the change in l3_agent.py, and Randy will be working on it. thanks. | 14:21 |
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| absubram | aveiga: good suggestion.. I'll be sure to do that | 14:22 |
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| sc68cal | Anything else on the blueprint side before I turn it over to open discussion? | 14:23 |
| aveiga | so besides the Horizon BP, are there any missing to complete our existing goals for Icehouse? | 14:23 |
| baoli | Any work with devstack to setup ipv6? | 14:24 |
| aveiga | I think no, at this point | 14:24 |
| shshang | sc68cal, I still need your help to link my code to your base | 14:24 |
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| aveiga | sc68cal has been setting up devstack in our lab with v6, but it's tweaked to use provider networks. I don't think there's much to change though for GRE | 14:24 |
| shshang | sc68cal, do you have some time today and we can use google hangout? | 14:25 |
| aveiga | sc68cal: would it be possible to post your configs as a gist? | 14:25 |
| aveiga | or maybe in the openstack etherpad | 14:25 |
| sc68cal | shshang: Yes - I can help you today | 14:25 |
| sc68cal | I can post my configs for devstack as well that we use in the lab | 14:26 |
| baoli | cool | 14:26 |
| sc68cal | I also have a branch of devstack that creates v6 subnets - so I'll post that branch as well | 14:26 |
| rtuttle1015 | @baoli: yes, I am addressing the l3_agent.py for external gateway | 14:27 |
| baoli | rtuttle1015, thanks. | 14:27 |
| baoli | sc68cal, would the changes you have for devstack needs to be upstreamed? | 14:28 |
| sc68cal | #action sc68cal post branch of Devstack + configs on the mailing list | 14:28 |
| sc68cal | baoli: They'd need some work for that | 14:29 |
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| aveiga | baoli: not sure, like I said they're specific to provider nets and I know devstack doesn't normally do that | 14:29 |
| sc68cal | ^^^ what aveiga said | 14:29 |
| aveiga | but if they can be altered to do GRE tunnels, then I don't see why not | 14:29 |
| aveiga | start exposing the rest of openstack devs to v6 as soon as we can | 14:29 |
| baoli | well, let me think about that | 14:30 |
| aveiga | once they're up, have a look | 14:30 |
| aveiga | if you see something you can do to integrate them, go nuts | 14:30 |
| baoli | sure thing | 14:30 |
| aveiga | I think we're clear on BPs then | 14:30 |
| sc68cal | #topic open discussion | 14:31 |
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| shshang | Randy and I have a question regarding semantic check | 14:31 |
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| shshang | In two attributes combination, some modes are not valid for some use cases | 14:32 |
| aveiga | I think the determination we made last time was to let it go | 14:32 |
| shshang | We think we need to add semantic check to return errors to client (both neutron CLI and Horizon) | 14:33 |
| aveiga | if the user is configuring these, they need to know enough about IPv6 networks | 14:33 |
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| aveiga | for the same reason that we covered not just assuming it's invalid | 14:33 |
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| aveiga | maybe a user is trying to do something we haven't come across yet | 14:33 |
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| shshang | yes, so in this case, we need to let user be aware what they are doing is not supported | 14:33 |
| rtuttle1015 | but if the wrong combos get to the agent on network node, weird configs get hard to debug. why not send the error back from API | 14:34 |
| aveiga | what's not supported, though? | 14:34 |
| aveiga | rtuttle1015: which use case are you referring to? | 14:34 |
| shshang | So the best place we can think of is on neutron server side | 14:34 |
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| rtuttle1015 | shshang's table are the valid cases | 14:34 |
| shshang | which can cover both neutron client and horizon | 14:34 |
| rtuttle1015 | can we not include a static table of some sort that determines the valid combos | 14:35 |
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| xuhanp | I think we can add the check to Sean's code which is validating the two modes | 14:35 |
| aveiga | we can't make a determination on validity | 14:35 |
| rtuttle1015 | yes, this is what shshang and I were thinking | 14:35 |
| shshang | xuhanp, that is what we are thinking too | 14:35 |
| aveiga | that's the core of what I'm getting at | 14:35 |
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| rtuttle1015 | no, we have shshang's table which highlight the current supported combos. | 14:35 |
| sc68cal | rtuttle1015: ah , is that what those red squiggles are? | 14:36 |
| rtuttle1015 | a truth table of sorts | 14:36 |
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| aveiga | I can't seem to find the table | 14:36 |
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| aveiga | or at least, the most recent version | 14:36 |
| sc68cal | #link https://www.dropbox.com/s/rq8xmbruqthef38/IPv6%20Two%20Modes%20v2.0.pdf Ipv6 modes table | 14:36 |
| shshang | sc68cal, yes, the highlighted one are the ones we support and we developed | 14:36 |
| rtuttle1015 | yes, that's it | 14:36 |
| sc68cal | you guys should amend that PDF to add that - I sort of was wondering what it was | 14:37 |
| shshang | yes, we will | 14:37 |
| aveiga | that PDF has everything underlined except the cases where averything is off | 14:37 |
| aveiga | which is the equivalent to setting enable_dhcp = 0 | 14:37 |
| shshang | for example, if subnet has no gateway port, and user want dnsmasq to send RA, then we need to return error | 14:37 |
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| shshang | I need to update the link to version 3.0 | 14:38 |
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| aveiga | shshang: what if the gateway is going to be added by config drive when a service VM starts up? | 14:38 |
| aveiga | it would need to be on-net before the port could be added | 14:38 |
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| shshang | that is the case we didn't have time to cover yet | 14:39 |
| aveiga | right | 14:39 |
| aveiga | that's why I'm saying don't throw a validation error | 14:39 |
| aveiga | just silently let it go | 14:39 |
| sc68cal | aveiga: I imagine we'd need to talk to the service insertion folks | 14:39 |
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| aveiga | sc68cal: I'm imagining this is possible on your own today even without that piece | 14:39 |
| sc68cal | since they're tackling the problem of how to insert firewalls and other services into the wire | 14:39 |
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| aveiga | I could spin up an haproxy today on v6, use config drive to manually add the v6 address that's not part of the pool but still inside the /64, and then use the api to add it as the gateway | 14:40 |
| shshang | aveiga, that is actually the next topic I want to bring up | 14:40 |
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| shshang | the validation should be there based on the current configuration. If later on, the setup is changed, then we need to trigger the validation again. | 14:41 |
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| shshang | So this is 2-fold story | 14:41 |
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| aveiga | but according to your table, all modes are valid except off/off | 14:42 |
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| shshang | I refer to a case in the last email thread, which discuss private network v.s. provider network..... | 14:42 |
| shshang | You bring up a good point of provider network in your reply. | 14:43 |
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| aveiga | I think we have a different issue here | 14:44 |
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| aveiga | that's a question of which addresses we want to use on a private network | 14:44 |
| aveiga | technically, we don't need any since LLA should be sufficient | 14:45 |
| shshang | yes, that cover address assignment side. How are about RA side? | 14:45 |
| aveiga | no RA | 14:45 |
| aveiga | if you're using LLA | 14:45 |
| aveiga | but that's not the question | 14:45 |
| shshang | exactly | 14:45 |
| aveiga | the question is do we want to support GRAs on a private network? | 14:45 |
| aveiga | or even ULAs | 14:46 |
| shshang | what if user configure ipv6_ra_mode with attribute to enable RA | 14:46 |
| aveiga | enabling RA only works if there's a gateway port | 14:46 |
| shshang | we know we don't need RA, but user may not know | 14:46 |
| shshang | there is nothing prevent them from typing ipv6_ra_mode = DHCPV6 Stateful | 14:46 |
| shshang | and if that happens, the system needs to tell them, sorry, this is wrong | 14:47 |
| aveiga | if there's no gateway, then we report that we can't issue RAs | 14:47 |
| aveiga | no matter what mode | 14:47 |
| baoli | aveiga, why enabling RA only works if there's a gateway port? | 14:47 |
| shshang | exactly. The "report" piece is what I am looking for | 14:47 |
| aveiga | baoli: something has to send the RA | 14:47 |
| shshang | The "report" is what I refer to semantic check | 14:48 |
| shshang | the system need to throw error | 14:48 |
| baoli | You can send it through the dhcp port, right? | 14:48 |
| aveiga | baoli: only if you want to permanently blackhole that network | 14:48 |
| aveiga | if I add a gateway port later, it won't do anything | 14:48 |
| aveiga | most linux distros ignore multiple RAs for the same subnet | 14:48 |
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| aveiga | so the second RA would come from the valid gateway, but get ignored. Then you can't route | 14:49 |
| baoli | I think that's the purpose of ULA? In addition, a port can have mutiple ipv6 addresses in addition to ULA | 14:49 |
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| baoli | aveiga, a route can be associated with a preference value | 14:50 |
| aveiga | if you want ULA, then you have to advertise only ULA | 14:50 |
| aveiga | baoli: linux doesn't honor the preference value | 14:50 |
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| aveiga | there are MANY bugs filed against this | 14:50 |
| shshang | If user add a gateway port later, DB is updated. If user prefer change the subnet mode, then they can do it now. | 14:51 |
| aveiga | I've been testing this in production environments for the past 5 years, and it's not reliable | 14:51 |
| aveiga | shshang: that's fine, but they have to re-address | 14:51 |
| baoli | aveiga, I tried. I have radvd running in both the dhcp namespace and the router space, and I have the route from the router spave have higher preference, and that route is chosen | 14:51 |
| aveiga | or you have to have a really short RA lifetime and remove it completely from the dhcp server | 14:51 |
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| aveiga | do you want to extend the semantics check to only allow advertising RAs from the DHCPv6 namespace when there's also no gateway and only using ULA space? | 14:52 |
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| aveiga | but then that's not goign to be pleasant either, because ULA can be routed | 14:52 |
| aveiga | or we just only support LLA on non-routed networks? | 14:53 |
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| aveiga | this is not a simple question | 14:53 |
| baoli | I have a couple of more questions, 1. are the two new subnet modes exposed to the normal users? 2. normally a user launches a VM with nova boot --nic, and the nic will be associated with one of the subnets available in a network. how does the VM user indicate that the VM should be enabled with ipv6 and with which ipv6 subnet? | 14:53 |
| shshang | aveiga, is that question to me, or to baoli? | 14:53 |
| aveiga | shshang: to all | 14:53 |
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| aveiga | baoli: they don't, this is only network-level configuration | 14:54 |
| shshang | How are about this, would u plz do me a favor sending all of the use cases to the ML, and we can chew on it. | 14:54 |
| aveiga | shshang: I don't think I can even cover them all | 14:54 |
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| shshang | it also gives us a chance to think it through. | 14:54 |
| aveiga | I'm sure I will miss a bunch | 14:54 |
| aveiga | but I can try | 14:54 |
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| shshang | Just a couple of them, which will impose challenges on the semantic checks | 14:54 |
| aveiga | sc68cal: AI me to cover private network addressing cases on the ML, please | 14:54 |
| rtuttle1015 | how about a short-list of the most important use cases | 14:54 |
| sc68cal | #action aveiga cover private network addressing cases on the ML | 14:55 |
| aveiga | and then we can table this to the ML, since we're running out of time | 14:55 |
| rtuttle1015 | these are the ones we will allow, and then drop all others with error to user | 14:55 |
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| baoli | Can someone help me with my second question? | 14:55 |
| aveiga | rtuttle1015: I want to avoid that | 14:55 |
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| aveiga | that's why we're stuck with broken SLAAC today | 14:56 |
| shshang | aveiga, your points about post configuration change are valid. I don't have answer right now. But I believe we can find a solution/workaround jointly. | 14:56 |
| rtuttle1015 | but we can't boil the ocean, and certainly can't address "unknown" use cases | 14:56 |
| aveiga | baoli: if there's a v6 subnet on the network, they get v6 | 14:56 |
| aveiga | that's simple | 14:56 |
| rtuttle1015 | so let's allow those we know, drop all others (for now) | 14:56 |
| baoli | aveiga, thanks. | 14:56 |
| aveiga | rtuttle1015: agreed, but I'd rather err on allowing them even if they aren't considered "valid" | 14:56 |
| aveiga | better to let a guilt man go free then put an honest one in prison, no? | 14:57 |
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| aveiga | if we want a WARN: in the logs, I'm ok with that | 14:57 |
| rtuttle1015 | so what you're really saying is drive the error checking down to the agent (network node), spit a log silently and then go debug later | 14:57 |
| shshang | How are about we document them, so user at least have a reference of the limitation? | 14:57 |
| aveiga | rtuttle1015: yes | 14:57 |
| rtuttle1015 | I don't like that | 14:57 |
| aveiga | shshang: I will, hence the AI | 14:57 |
| rtuttle1015 | makes network node do unnecessary work | 14:58 |
| rtuttle1015 | checking should be on neutron-server | 14:58 |
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| aveiga | but it makes unkown cases possible instead of requiring someone to rewrite code to compensate | 14:58 |
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| shshang | sc68cal, can we make sure this topic will be in next week's agenda? We need to reach consensus. | 14:58 |
| aveiga | agreed | 14:58 |
| rtuttle1015 | +1 | 14:58 |
| aveiga | in any case, I need to drop for another meeting | 14:59 |
| aveiga | see you all on the ML | 14:59 |
| aveiga | o/ | 14:59 |
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| shshang | LOL | 14:59 |
| shshang | yah, we only have 1 min left | 14:59 |
| sc68cal | shshang: yeah we'll recap it next week based on the mailing list convo | 14:59 |
| shshang | Yup | 14:59 |
| shshang | will do | 14:59 |
| sc68cal | Alright everyone | 14:59 |
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| shshang | aveiga, thank you for your points | 14:59 |
| sc68cal | thanks for joining, we'll reconvene next week | 15:00 |
| sc68cal | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 4 15:00:04 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-02-04-13.59.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-02-04-13.59.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-02-04-13.59.log.html | 15:00 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 4 15:00:37 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:00 |
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| alexey_o | me here | 15:01 |
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| alaski | o/ | 15:01 |
| gilr | hi | 15:01 |
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| PaulMurray | hi | 15:01 |
| toan-tran | hi | 15:02 |
| n0ano | then let's get started | 15:02 |
| n0ano | #topic no db scheduler | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | hmm, boris doesn't seem to be on, might not be able to talk about this one much | 15:02 |
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| alexey_o | well, I can substitute boris to some extent | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | alexey_o, I thought you might but I didn't want to presume :-), what have you got? | 15:03 |
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| alexey_o | I am working on it and I think we are close now | 15:04 |
| alexey_o | it appeared to be not a straitforward task to get rid of compute_nodes table | 15:05 |
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| n0ano | the devil is always in the details, can you give a short summary of the problem (emphasis on short) | 15:06 |
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| alexey_o | well, right now I am hunting a geizenbug that thwarts tempest tests at the gate | 15:07 |
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| alexey_o | also one can't just drop compute_nodes table and expect everything to keep working | 15:08 |
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| alexey_o | it is related to services and appears to be joinedloaded quite frequently | 15:08 |
| n0ano | so nothing obvious, just finding the implicit assumptions that are there. | 15:09 |
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| n0ano | good luck finding the bugs | 15:09 |
| toan-tran | alexey_o: pls remind me again, how nova conductor work with compute_nodes forked out? | 15:09 |
| toan-tran | and how computes do their frequence update : to nova-condcutor, or scheduler? | 15:09 |
| alexey_o | the last problem can be overcome with some effort | 15:10 |
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| alexey_o | toan-tran: the idea was to get rid of writing state changes to compute_nodes table and keep host-related data right in places where it will be needed | 15:12 |
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| alexey_o | for example in nova-scheduler | 15:12 |
| n0ano | e.g. state the scheduler needs is periodically sent to the scheduler, not the DB | 15:12 |
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| alexey_o | yes | 15:13 |
| alexey_o | ultimately that was supposed to be sent to schedulers | 15:13 |
| toan-tran | so nova-compute will send their updates to scheduler? that's quite a quantity | 15:13 |
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| toan-tran | and also their would be a question of the existence of nova-conductor at this point | 15:13 |
| alexey_o | right now the change does not remove the conductor | 15:14 |
| alexey_o | it still listens to state updates | 15:14 |
| * mspreitz is still unclear on whether we are talking about one scheduler or multiple | 15:14 | |
| alexey_o | when it receives an update it propagate it to all other entities which are interested in host states | 15:15 |
| alexey_o | that would be multiple schedulers | 15:15 |
| mspreitz | how many entities is that? Which are they? | 15:15 |
| alexey_o | at least one more -- a scheduler | 15:15 |
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| mspreitz | And there is just one conductor? | 15:16 |
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| alexey_o | it is quite possible to have mutliple schedulers so this change was made keeping this in mind | 15:16 |
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| alexey_o | I am unsure whether or not current implementation allows for multiple conductors, but state synchronizatoiin allows for multiple conductors as well | 15:17 |
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| mspreitz | And how is an update propagated from original receive (a conductor) to the other interested parties? And why is this better than just pub/sub to all of the interested parties directly in the first place? | 15:18 |
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| alexey_o | as soon as one of the interested parties decides it wants to do sth with state data stored locally it checks a backend to see if there are any fresh updates | 15:20 |
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| mspreitz | So it's polled/pulled, not pushed, to other parties | 15:21 |
| alexey_o | as for pub/sub approach if I get you right our technique does not load the queue as much as state broadcasting | 15:21 |
| coolsvap | n0ano mspreitz alexey_o can this discussion continue on ML instead of meeting? | 15:21 |
| mspreitz | OK with me | 15:21 |
| n0ano | if it needs to go too much deeper we can move to ML, I'm OK with a little more discussion. | 15:22 |
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| alexey_o | ok, feel free to ask any questions | 15:22 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, maybe you can start a ML thread on your concerns, they certainly seem valid | 15:22 |
| coolsvap | n0ano: I agree, but we are getting stuck at places with no inputs, so just wanted to put a thought | 15:22 |
| mspreitz | Maybe I got the answer, let me see if I got it right.. | 15:22 |
| alexey_o | yes, it is polled by those who cares | 15:23 |
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| mspreitz | The revised technique wins when updates are more frequent than need to know. In this situation, the revised technnique does a query when there is a need to know | 15:23 |
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| alexey_o | yes, it was intended to be used in very large scale clouds | 15:24 |
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| alexey_o | by very large I mean thousands of nodes | 15:24 |
| mspreitz | It's a question not only of scale but how often there is a need to know (scheduling task). | 15:24 |
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| mspreitz | I presume the eval done is accurate. I think I got my answer. thanks | 15:25 |
| n0ano | alexey_o, one quick question, last week boris mentioned the demo show bottlenecks not in the scheduler, do you know if these bottlenecks have been identified? | 15:25 |
| alexey_o | at such scale updates will be very frequent, especially comapred to requests for scheduling | 15:25 |
| toan-tran | alexey_o: I remark that there is not a design on how all these things interact with other components | 15:25 |
| toan-tran | on your blueprint/doc page | 15:25 |
| * mspreitz is not sure why we would expect scheduling rate to not increase with cloud size | 15:25 | |
| toan-tran | could you elaborate in a wiki/doc | 15:25 |
| toan-tran | so that we can understand how no-db scheduler would interact with all other nova components | 15:26 |
| alexey_o | n0ano: unfortunately I don't know | 15:26 |
| toan-tran | and how current message flows would go | 15:26 |
| alexey_o | it is best to ask boris | 15:26 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, the scheduling rate increases the but node updates increase (potentially even more) | 15:26 |
| n0ano | alexey_o, tnx | 15:27 |
| mspreitz | n0ano: is that an observation based on data I can see? | 15:27 |
| alexey_o | toan-tran: yes, there is still a lot to document carefully | 15:27 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, strictly guess, hard data would be good to have but `I` think the guess is good | 15:27 |
| mspreitz | Can you elaborate on why you expect scheduling rate to increase more slowly than cloud size? | 15:28 |
| alexey_o | mspreitz: some time ago I've measured delay in mysql responce to compute node get as a function of the number of compute node records | 15:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | as long as its optional, then I am good with having it as an option for people to try, and we can decide to change the default, once we "are happy" with it | 15:29 |
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| n0ano | as cloud size increases the node updates increase, if guests are long lived then the scheduling rate should not increase at the same rate | 15:29 |
| alexey_o | as scheduler issues a request for all compute nodes to be grabbed from db it takes more time to schedule a single instance | 15:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | number of nodes vs rate of builds vs rate of deletes is going to change what is best, so trying this out seems to make sense to me | 15:30 |
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| mspreitz | alexey_o: yes, that makes sense. I think n0ano is making a different assertion: the (number of calls to scheduler)/time is less than proportional to cloud size | 15:31 |
| alexey_o | yes, I got it wrong the first time | 15:31 |
| mspreitz | n0ano: I do not follow your reply... | 15:31 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, no, I think I'm saying (number of call to sched)/time is less than (node updates)/time, especially as the cloud gets larger | 15:32 |
| mspreitz | Do you expect guest lifetime to increase with cloud size? | 15:32 |
| mspreitz | node = host, I take it | 15:32 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, yes | 15:32 |
| mspreitz | node update = guest start, guest stop, or stats, or what? | 15:33 |
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| n0ano | stats is the real concern, start/stop should be directly proportional to scheduler calls | 15:33 |
| toan-tran | mspreitz: I think node update = periodic ms | 15:34 |
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| mspreitz | n0ano: your previus "yes" was response to terminology question, or guest lifetime? | 15:34 |
| n0ano | I think terminology confusions, I'm not really concerned about lifetime | 15:34 |
| toan-tran | = number of nodes (per minute) | 15:34 |
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| mspreitz | stats update / time should be proportional to cloud size | 15:35 |
| toan-tran | while (call to scheduler) = guesses requesting compute nodes | 15:35 |
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| toan-tran | mspreitz: yes | 15:35 |
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| toan-tran | so I do not see clearly the relation between the two | 15:36 |
| toan-tran | Big servers ==> less update & more call to scheduler | 15:36 |
| mspreitz | Assuming overall utilization stays constant as cloud size grows, and that guest lifetime stays constant as cloud size grows, this implies that guest arrivals/time stays constant as cloud size grows | 15:36 |
| n0ano | but updates/time should increase as the cloud size increases | 15:37 |
| toan-tran | mspreitz: I don't think so | 15:37 |
| mspreitz | sorry, I stated my conclusion wrong | 15:37 |
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| mspreitz | the implication is that guest arrivals / time will be proportional to cloud size | 15:37 |
| toan-tran | because cloud providers will not increase their size if there is a constant guest arrival | 15:37 |
| toan-tran | rember that is scheduler call is when there is a change in a number of instances of clients' applications | 15:38 |
| mspreitz | Assuming overall utilization stays constant as cloud size grows, and that guest lifetime stays constant as cloud size grows, this implies that guest arrivals/time will be proportional to cloud size | 15:38 |
| toan-tran | so if guest arrival is constant ==> there is almost no activities on clients' applications | 15:39 |
| toan-tran | it's hard to fantom | 15:39 |
| mspreitz | toan-tran: right. Read my corrected statement | 15:39 |
| n0ano | well, my concern is the ratio between (update requests)/(scheduler requests), I'm thinking that ratio should be >1 | 15:39 |
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| n0ano | guys, I hate to cut this short but I think we have to move on, one other topic I'd like to cover today | 15:40 |
| mspreitz | I gave an argument why instance creations / time will be proportional to cloud size. I think we agree that stats / time will be proportional to cloud size | 15:40 |
| toan-tran | mspreitz +1 | 15:40 |
| mspreitz | OK with me | 15:40 |
| Yathi | It will be good to see some real experiments and numbers | 15:41 |
| mspreitz | I think Boris showed that the revision is a win at the size he studied | 15:41 |
| mspreitz | and if my expectation is right, that winnage extends to other size | 15:41 |
| Yathi | mspreitz, if you have experiments done in your team, please share the results or any paper you may have written | 15:41 |
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| mspreitz | My group is not studying that question, we are pretty convinced that Boris has a win | 15:42 |
| mspreitz | we are working on scaling study | 15:42 |
| n0ano | moving on... | 15:42 |
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| Yathi | +1 | 15:42 |
| n0ano | #scheduler code forklift | 15:42 |
| n0ano | good news/bad news | 15:42 |
| n0ano | good news - the changes to devstack have been merged so you can now requests the gantt scheduler service | 15:43 |
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| n0ano | bad news - still working on pushing the change to get gantt to pass the unit tests, everytime I think I've got it another (mostly minor) issue crops up | 15:43 |
| n0ano | getting there, it's just a matter of resolving the review issues | 15:44 |
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| coolsvap | n0ano: thats great! | 15:45 |
| ddutta | +1 | 15:45 |
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| n0ano | actually, the other good news is that gantt passes most of the tempest tests locally (I fail about 100 tests out of 2000 but I get the same failures on a clean devstack build with the nova scheduler so the failures are probably my local setup | 15:46 |
| n0ano | anyone, if anyone want to review the changes at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/68521/ go for it | 15:46 |
| ddutta | n0ano: does the scheduler code work standalone right now? without OS dependencies | 15:46 |
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| n0ano | ddutta, no, that's the next step, to cut all ties to nova, not there yet | 15:47 |
| ddutta | coool! | 15:47 |
| n0ano | I like stepwise progression - first tree -> unit tests -> tempests tests -> independent tree | 15:48 |
| ddutta | agreed! | 15:48 |
| coolsvap | n0ano: I will give a try to gantt tree tempest tests tonight | 15:49 |
| toan-tran | n0ano +1 | 15:49 |
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| n0ano | coolsvap, one warning, you have to change the SCHEDULER environment variable from it's default, set it to gantt.scheduler.filter_scheduler.FilterScheduler in your localrc | 15:50 |
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| n0ano | other than that, it should work (I want to know if it doesn't) | 15:50 |
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| toan-tran | n0ano: is there a requirement for nova version? | 15:51 |
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| coolsvap | n0ano: point noted! thx! | 15:51 |
| n0ano | for the unit tests yes, my local tempest tests have just been against to of tree | 15:51 |
| n0ano | s/to of/top of | 15:51 |
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| Yathi | n0ano, do you have any documentation of how we can start trying out gantt now ? | 15:52 |
| n0ano | depending upon how far the top of tree changes this could be a problem for tempest, that's why we need to cut the cord as soon as possible | 15:52 |
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| n0ano | Yathi, no, it's pretty simple, I can sent an email to the ML to tell how to do it (enable gantt, disable n-sch, set SCHEDULER) | 15:53 |
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| Yathi | ok cool.. will look for it | 15:53 |
| n0ano | aproaching the top of the hour | 15:54 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:54 |
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| n0ano | anyone have anything else? | 15:54 |
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| mspreitz | ML about gantt will be good | 15:54 |
| Yathi | Request to review two patches for Solver scheduler | 15:54 |
| mspreitz | pointers please | 15:54 |
| n0ano | Yathi, links? | 15:54 |
| Yathi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/46588/ | 15:55 |
| Yathi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70654/ | 15:55 |
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| mspreitz | thanks | 15:55 |
| n0ano | Yathi, tnx | 15:55 |
| ddutta | and the API patches https://review.openstack.org/#/c/62557/ | 15:55 |
| ddutta | sorry I meant API for group instance | 15:55 |
| toan-tran | and the Policy Based Scheduler patch: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/61386 | 15:55 |
| toan-tran | :) | 15:55 |
| ddutta | :) | 15:55 |
| Yathi | :) | 15:55 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, there have been multiple ML threads on gantt and there's a launchpad about it at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/icehouse-external-scheduler | 15:56 |
| mspreitz | I meant the instr on how to test | 15:56 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, ah, sure NP | 15:56 |
| * n0ano I guess I really have to write today :-) | 15:56 | |
| Yathi | n0ano, I may have missed this from the previous meetings, how will the new patches to scheduler, like the Solver scheduler, policy-based scheduler be merged with gantt ? | 15:57 |
| Yathi | after gantt merging, before, and re-merge with gantt ? | 15:57 |
| n0ano | the current gantt tree is a preview, after we get it working we'll re-create the tree, apply the changes we now know get it working (lots of work for me) and then cut to gantt | 15:58 |
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| Yathi | ok cool Thanks | 15:59 |
| n0ano | OK guys, tnx and we'll talk again | 15:59 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 4 15:59:37 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-02-04-15.00.html | 15:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-02-04-15.00.txt | 15:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-02-04-15.00.log.html | 15:59 |
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| boris-42_ | hughsaunders julienvey stannie msdubov jaypipes Rally meeting | 17:00 |
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| hughsaunders | \o boris-42_ | 17:00 |
| boris-42_ | #startmeeting Rally | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 4 17:00:32 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:00 |
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| msdubov | hi | 17:00 |
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| boris-42 | nkhare hi | 17:01 |
| nkhare | boris-42, hi | 17:01 |
| boris-42 | akscram meeting time | 17:01 |
| nkhare | hello everyone | 17:01 |
| miarmak | hi | 17:01 |
| boris-42 | so okay nice to see you guys let's disscuss what we have | 17:01 |
| boris-42 | 1. Work around Rally WIKI & docs | 17:01 |
| boris-42 | 2. Scenario runner refactoring | 17:02 |
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| boris-42 | 2. Ssh refactoring | 17:02 |
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| boris-42 | 4. Mulitnode / LXC engines | 17:02 |
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| boris-42 | 5. Atomic operation times | 17:03 |
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| boris-42 | 6. Free discussion | 17:03 |
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| boris-42 | #topic 1. Work around Rally WIKI & docs | 17:03 |
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| *** boris-42 is now known as boris-42_ | 17:04 | |
| boris-42_ | #topic 1. Work around Rally WIKI & docs | 17:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "1. Work around Rally WIKI & docs (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:04 | |
| boris-42_ | lol=) | 17:04 |
| boris-42_ | So I was concentrate on first page of Rally wiki page | 17:04 |
| boris-42_ | I added tons of different diagrams https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Rally | 17:04 |
| boris-42_ | and will continue adding to describe how Deploy stuff and Benchmark stuff works in details | 17:05 |
| boris-42_ | Then I am going to refactor Join Rally team (part) | 17:05 |
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| boris-42_ | to describe in more human readable form how to join Rally team | 17:05 |
| boris-42_ | and then I will concentrate on pages about installation and usage of rally | 17:05 |
| boris-42_ | we have couple of new features that are not covered by wiki | 17:06 |
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| boris-42_ | e.g. --use stuff / deploy engines (e.g. devstack) | 17:06 |
| boris-42_ | atomic times and how to write benchmarks | 17:06 |
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| boris-42_ | and make it overall more clear and simple | 17:06 |
| redixin | DevstackEngine is not covered by wiki? | 17:06 |
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| boris-42_ | redixin it is not covered in that way that somebody will see it and say YEP I would like to use this stuff | 17:07 |
| boris-42_ | =) | 17:07 |
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| boris-42_ | so I will try to refactor all this stuff | 17:07 |
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| boris-42_ | does anybody has any question? | 17:08 |
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| redixin | no | 17:08 |
| boris-42_ | ok let's move to next topic | 17:09 |
| boris-42_ | #topic 2. Scenario runner refactoring | 17:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "2. Scenario runner refactoring (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:09 | |
| boris-42_ | msdubov could you share pls with updates | 17:09 |
| redixin | I saw that patch. It works :) | 17:10 |
| boris-42_ | redixin lol=) | 17:10 |
| boris-42_ | redixin amazing=) | 17:10 |
| msdubov | So its actually the work started by Boris and continued by me. We've issued two patches on this | 17:10 |
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| msdubov | 1. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/69886/, where we simplify the original ScenarioRunner class | 17:10 |
| msdubov | and move some functionaly for creating users/performing cleanup to separate context classes | 17:10 |
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| msdubov | 2. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70771/, where we re-implement different benchmark launching strategies in subclasses instead of ScenarioRunner methods | 17:11 |
| boris-42_ | msdubov actually it is not simplification (as well we are using context, so now in any case we will perform cleanup) | 17:11 |
| msdubov | which allows to eliminate the complicated "if"s logic | 17:11 |
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| boris-42_ | msdubov that was serious bug actually as well.. | 17:11 |
| msdubov | boris-42_ Yep but it is now e.g. not called in multiprocessing Pool, so it simplifies everything a bit | 17:12 |
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| msdubov | I tested these patches on devstack (launching NovaServers.boot_and_delete_server with small load) and it worked for me | 17:12 |
| msdubov | So pls review those pathces | 17:12 |
| msdubov | As the next step I need to rebase lots of my code pending review on this | 17:13 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders julienvey stannie could you take a look at those patches as well? | 17:13 |
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| msdubov | For example, the DummyEngine refactoring which allows it to work with predefined users instead of generated ones | 17:13 |
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| boris-42_ | msdubov ok thanks for updates | 17:14 |
| boris-42_ | #topic 3. Ssh refactoring | 17:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "3. Ssh refactoring (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:14 | |
| redixin | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/68063/ | 17:14 |
| redixin | approve it pls =) | 17:14 |
| boris-42_ | redixin could you explain in couple of words what you done?) | 17:15 |
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| boris-42_ | redixin and how to test it (for others) | 17:15 |
| redixin | just cherry-pick it, and try to make anything that uses ssh access (deploy or run-task-in-instance scenario) | 17:16 |
| boris-42_ | redixin ok will do ^ | 17:16 |
| boris-42_ | redixin and why this change is required? | 17:16 |
| redixin | it is not required, but with this patch using ssh in not painful | 17:17 |
| boris-42_ | redixin ok =)) | 17:17 |
| boris-42_ | redixin so just cleanup of code | 17:17 |
| redixin | api changes | 17:17 |
| boris-42_ | #topic 4. Multinode / LXC engines | 17:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "4. Multinode / LXC engines (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:17 | |
| redixin | mm this pathces is ready for review | 17:18 |
| redixin | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56222/ | 17:18 |
| redixin | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57240/ | 17:18 |
| redixin | tons of test deployment was done with this engines | 17:18 |
| boris-42_ | redixin ok I will review code | 17:18 |
| boris-42_ | redixin one more time | 17:18 |
| boris-42_ | redixin and merge if everything is ok | 17:19 |
| redixin | ok thanks | 17:19 |
| boris-42_ | to others these patches allows us to create Multinode deployments | 17:19 |
| boris-42_ | at this moment we are supporting only DevStack | 17:19 |
| boris-42_ | but in future there will be as well Fuel | 17:19 |
| redixin | btw | 17:20 |
| redixin | FuelEngine is ready for teview | 17:20 |
| redixin | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/61963/ | 17:20 |
| boris-42_ | and with LXCEngine we could get very very fast cloud at big scale on small amount of servers | 17:20 |
| boris-42_ | (even one) | 17:20 |
| boris-42_ | something like 200mb RAM is required per 1 compute node | 17:20 |
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| boris-42_ | #topic 5. Atomic operation times | 17:21 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "5. Atomic operation times (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:21 | |
| boris-42_ | stannie hi, could you share updates? | 17:21 |
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| boris-42_ | stannie btw are you here?) | 17:21 |
| redixin | I thought this work was completed | 17:21 |
| boris-42_ | so seems like stannie is not yet here | 17:22 |
| boris-42_ | so let me share with updates | 17:22 |
| boris-42_ | we successfully add support of atomic times for actions | 17:22 |
| boris-42_ | this allows us to measure times of all atomic actions | 17:22 |
| boris-42_ | e.g. in Nova.snapshot scneario | 17:22 |
| boris-42_ | we have next actions: 1) boot VM, snapshot VM, delete VM, start from snapshot VM, delete snapshot, delete VM | 17:23 |
| boris-42_ | so it becomes really unclear how long works each of operations | 17:23 |
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| boris-42_ | so with this patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/69828/ | 17:24 |
| boris-42_ | we will store/mesure all times of all atomic actions in DB | 17:24 |
| boris-42_ | and this one will allow us to see them in CLI https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70362/ | 17:24 |
| boris-42_ | So this finish works around atomic actions | 17:25 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare are you around? | 17:25 |
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| nkhare | yes | 17:25 |
| boris-42_ | #topic Keystone benchmarking | 17:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Keystone benchmarking (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:25 | |
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| boris-42_ | nkhare could you share some info about your work around keystone benhcmarking | 17:26 |
| nkhare | sure. with the current code in review I was able to do create user benchmark | 17:26 |
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| nkhare | currently writing down the benchmark for pki vs UUID | 17:27 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare and you are add as well "authentication" benchhmark? | 17:27 |
| boris-42_ | you added* | 17:27 |
| nkhare | yes | 17:27 |
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| boris-42_ | nkhare nice | 17:28 |
| nkhare | would be writing down the user-story section once I finish PKI vs UUID benchmark | 17:28 |
| nkhare | for keystone | 17:29 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare ok nice, it will be very interesting to see | 17:29 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare btw one small question about patch, do we actually need uitls and authenticate files | 17:29 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare I mean in this case they could be just merged | 17:30 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare in one single file authenticate | 17:30 |
| nkhare | boris-42_, I don't recall why I did that may be just following other benchmarks | 17:31 |
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| nkhare | we can merge them | 17:31 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare yep but in another cases there is a reason | 17:31 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare because there are atomic actions (e.g. create_volume, delete_volume) and you would like to build on top of them scenarios | 17:32 |
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| boris-42_ | nkhare and in this case I don't see any reason to make it complex | 17:32 |
| nkhare | boris-42_, as we are evolving the keystone benchmarks so may be we need but for now we can merge them | 17:33 |
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| hughsaunders | could authenticate be part of the keystone scenario? | 17:33 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders +1 | 17:33 |
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| nkhare | boris-42_, as we discussed earlier we might might want to authenticate with other services. | 17:34 |
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| nkhare | so we decided to have as different scenario | 17:35 |
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| boris-42_ | nkhare hughsaunders actually yes it is not absolutely 100% keystone stuff… in case when we are using pyhon clients from different project.. | 17:36 |
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| hughsaunders | ok | 17:36 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare so i think that it will be enough to merge utils with authenticate (because I don't see any complex logic) | 17:37 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare that should be splitted | 17:37 |
| nkhare | boris-42_, ok. I'll merge them | 17:37 |
| boris-42_ | nkhare thanks | 17:37 |
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| boris-42_ | #topic free discussion | 17:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "free discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:38 | |
| redixin | rally deployment use VS rally use deployment | 17:39 |
| boris-42_ | does anybody has something to say?) some ideas? any questions?) | 17:39 |
| miarmak | yes. Tempest verification =) | 17:39 |
| boris-42_ | redixin holy-war!!! | 17:39 |
| boris-42_ | ouch | 17:39 |
| boris-42_ | ffff | 17:39 |
| hughsaunders | redixin: which do you prefer? | 17:39 |
| redixin | I always do 'rally deployment use deploy_id' >_< | 17:39 |
| boris-42_ | I don't use always "use", but when I use use .. | 17:40 |
| hughsaunders | haha | 17:40 |
| redixin | -_- | 17:40 |
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| hughsaunders | maybe we could have a cli alias for redixin | 17:40 |
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| redixin | miarmak: what about tempest? | 17:41 |
| boris-42_ | #topic tempest integration | 17:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "tempest integration (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:41 | |
| hughsaunders | though that would involve duplicating all the args. | 17:41 |
| boris-42_ | sdague hi!=) | 17:41 |
| miarmak | There is a bp: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/rally/+spec/tempest-verification | 17:41 |
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| boris-42_ | miarmak btw I will add some extra info=) | 17:42 |
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| miarmak | boris-42_: in the bp description? | 17:42 |
| boris-42_ | miarmak yep about a lot of tasty stuff | 17:43 |
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| miarmak | boris-42_: ok, it would ve nice) | 17:43 |
| miarmak | now, there is only 1 string) | 17:43 |
| boris-42_ | miarmak so I mean as first step we are going to add command like rally verify install (that installs tempest) | 17:43 |
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| boris-42_ | miarmak and rally verify run (that runs tempest against cloud) | 17:43 |
| miarmak | yeah, There is wip patch: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70131 | 17:44 |
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| miarmak | please, take a look | 17:44 |
| boris-42_ | redixin msdubov hughsaunders killem'all | 17:44 |
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| boris-42_ | I mean that patch=) | 17:44 |
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| miarmak | =) | 17:44 |
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| boris-42_ | So let me share my new ideas about tempest verification | 17:44 |
| boris-42_ | 1) We should store results in DB | 17:44 |
| boris-42_ | 2) We should be able to run only sets of tests (that are already procreated), e.g. rally verify nova/cinder/small/medium/big/latest_failed | 17:45 |
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| boris-42_ | 3) we should add command rally verify list/show (that will list all verification stuffs, and show that will show detailed info and results) | 17:46 |
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| boris-42_ | 4) And one thing that will be super interesting for catching races rally verify run -N <sets> | 17:47 |
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| boris-42_ | that will run N times specified sets | 17:47 |
| boris-42_ | that's all | 17:47 |
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| hughsaunders | could tempest be a special case of a benchmark? | 17:47 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders how?) | 17:47 |
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| redixin | run tempest test N times and measure times | 17:48 |
| redixin | as usual | 17:48 |
| hughsaunders | yeah | 17:48 |
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| boris-42_ | hughsaunders yep why not | 17:48 |
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| boris-42_ | hughsaunders tempest as a becnhmark scenario lol=) | 17:48 |
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| hughsaunders | same mechanism, for an alternative purpose | 17:49 |
| boris-42_ | btw then probably part of verification logic could be moved to benchmark scneario? | 17:49 |
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| boris-42_ | so it could be parametrized | 17:49 |
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| boris-42_ | and we are able to specify times | 17:49 |
| boris-42_ | and even make a load | 17:49 |
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| boris-42_ | okay seems like a nice idea | 17:50 |
| boris-42_ | I will add this to BP | 17:50 |
| boris-42_ | any other great ideas hughsaunders redixin ? | 17:50 |
| redixin | no | 17:50 |
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| hughsaunders | nope | 17:51 |
| boris-42_ | #topic holy-wars | 17:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "holy-wars (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:51 | |
| hughsaunders | haha | 17:51 |
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| hughsaunders | vim +1 | 17:51 |
| boris-42_ | ffff | 17:51 |
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| boris-42_ | sublime is better | 17:51 |
| miarmak | PyCharm | 17:51 |
| msdubov | "deployment use" vs. "use deployment" | 17:52 |
| redixin | cat | sed | awk | 17:52 |
| hughsaunders | jq | 17:52 |
| boris-42_ | omg maniacs! | 17:52 |
| boris-42_ | nano!! | 17:52 |
| boris-42_ | the most awful stuff | 17:52 |
| boris-42_ | =) | 17:52 |
| hughsaunders | msdubov: use deployment makes sense, once use is implemented for tasks | 17:52 |
| hughsaunders | then can have use task | 17:52 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders yep | 17:53 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders that was idea | 17:53 |
| msdubov | hughsaunders yep I know but I always want to do deployment use as redixin =) | 17:53 |
| boris-42_ | but there is already --use | 17:53 |
| boris-42_ | msdubov ^ | 17:53 |
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| boris-42_ | rally deployment create --use | 17:53 |
| boris-42_ | =) | 17:53 |
| redixin | --use must be set bu default | 17:53 |
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| hughsaunders | redixin: I argued for that but was overruled | 17:53 |
| boris-42_ | --don't_use | 17:53 |
| boris-42_ | lol | 17:54 |
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| hughsaunders | however --no-use is a good option | 17:54 |
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| boris-42_ | rally task --burn-your-cloud | 17:54 |
| boris-42_ | =)) | 17:54 |
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| hughsaunders | maybe will submit a review for --no-use and see if it gets in.. | 17:54 |
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| boris-42_ | hughsaunders btw | 17:55 |
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| boris-42_ | hughsaunders I forgot to ask about CONF stuff | 17:55 |
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| hughsaunders | boris-42_: in progress | 17:55 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders pls don't make one patch on 1k lines=) | 17:55 |
| hughsaunders | https://github.com/hughsaunders/rally/compare/review?expand=1 | 17:55 |
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| hughsaunders | thats the cinder one | 17:55 |
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| hughsaunders | will do similar for nova, then submit review | 17:55 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders ok nice | 17:55 |
| boris-42_ | btw | 17:55 |
| boris-42_ | one detail | 17:56 |
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| boris-42_ | hughsaunders you should use group | 17:56 |
| boris-42_ | registre_group .. | 17:56 |
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| hughsaunders | ok will do | 17:56 |
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| boris-42_ | hughsaunders and what is the proper name for group? | 17:57 |
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| hughsaunders | one per benchmark type? | 17:57 |
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| boris-42_ | benchmarks | 17:57 |
| hughsaunders | ok, one group "benchmarks" then prefix each option with benchmark type | 17:58 |
| boris-42_ | and inside nova_crate_sleep, nova_delete_sleep | 17:58 |
| boris-42_ | yep | 17:58 |
| hughsaunders | will do | 17:58 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders thanks | 17:58 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders btw pretty important change=) | 17:58 |
| hughsaunders | yeah, meant to get it done today, but will have to be tomorrow now | 17:58 |
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| boris-42_ | hughsaunders np | 17:59 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders btw we will need to make a couple of patches (not only for benchmarks) | 17:59 |
| boris-42_ | hughsaunders to make them configurable.. | 17:59 |
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| hughsaunders | ? | 17:59 |
| boris-42_ | ok times to end this meeting | 17:59 |
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| boris-42_ | hughsaunders I will show you | 18:00 |
| hughsaunders | can continue tomorrw | 18:00 |
| * ayoung sneaks in | 18:00 | |
| hughsaunders | bye | 18:00 |
| boris-42_ | #endmeeting | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 4 18:00:14 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-02-04-17.00.html | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-02-04-17.00.txt | 18:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-02-04-17.00.log.html | 18:00 |
| ayoung | KEYSTONE | 18:00 |
| *** KurtMartin is now known as kmartin | 18:00 | |
| topol | o/ | 18:00 |
| marekd | o/ | 18:00 |
| dolphm | bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog: p/ | 18:00 |
| atiwari | Hi | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | hey | 18:01 |
| bknudson | dolphm: present | 18:01 |
| jaypipes | o/ | 18:01 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:01 |
| topol | o/ | 18:01 |
| dolphm | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:01 |
| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 4 18:01:29 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| *** morganfainberg_Z is now known as morganfainberg | 18:01 | |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | #topic Reminder: Icehouse feature proposal freeze February 18th | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reminder: Icehouse feature proposal freeze February 18th (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| ayoung | Guten Morgan | 18:01 |
| fabiog | Hello | 18:01 |
| dolphm | that's 12 days to propose a mergeable patch for blueprints, or it doesn't ship in icehouse | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | mornin all | 18:02 |
| dolphm | err 14 days because math | 18:02 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: good morning | 18:02 |
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| morganfainberg | rumors of my demise have been greatly exagerated | 18:02 |
| topol | define mergable... | 18:02 |
| dolphm | topol: complete | 18:02 |
| ayoung | topol, not -1 from Jenkins | 18:02 |
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| topol | what if someone asks for *more* test cases? | 18:02 |
| dolphm | ayoung: a half baked patchset with a +1 from jenkins deserves to be bumped | 18:03 |
| ayoung | that too | 18:03 |
| dolphm | topol: refinement is fine, if it's got a long way to go, then it shouldn't ship | 18:03 |
| ayoung | but Jenkins complaining is a sure fine no-go | 18:03 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ | 18:03 |
| * topol mine is passing jenkins... Im golden | 18:03 | |
| dolphm | if you're breaking devstack or tempest or something, it's too late to resolve cross-project dependencies in icehouse | 18:03 |
| bknudson | jenkins complains about a lot of things that are unrelated | 18:03 |
| dolphm | transients excluded | 18:03 |
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| atiwari | dolphm, thoughts on adding link:https://review.openstack.org/#/c/69145/4 for I3? | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | if you're rechecking for known bugs, it's "mergable" | 18:04 |
| * stevemar is late | 18:04 | |
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| morganfainberg | (elasticrecheck?) | 18:04 |
| dolphm | at this point there are several blueprints that i'm becoming paranoid about | 18:04 |
| dolphm | anything still Not Started as of next tuesday i'll likely be retargeting to juno | 18:05 |
| * topol please don't say audit. please dont say audit... | 18:05 | |
| dolphm | https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/icehouse-3 | 18:05 |
| ayoung | Any objection to use pushing through a change that allows notifications to go over oslo messaging instead of RPC. Turns out it is kindof important | 18:05 |
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| dolphm | topol: audit is started! | 18:05 |
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| topol | :-) | 18:05 |
| ayoung | not sure if we BPed it or not....jamielennox was working on it. and audit will need it | 18:05 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, ephemeral pki tokens need ayoung's revocation stuff. i'll be reviewing the revocation stuff and starting on it (unless it watch rolled into the revocation events) | 18:06 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, we have a BP for the notifications Messaging work? | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | s/watch/was | 18:06 |
| jaypipes | ayoung: as long as the log verbosity and false-positive exception logging in oslo.messaging is fixed. | 18:06 |
| dolphm | atiwari: it's a core api change post m2, so target juno | 18:06 |
| dolphm | juno-m2, specifically | 18:06 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ at least get it in review based on ayoung's work | 18:06 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: good way to test it as well | 18:06 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:07 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: if devstack can run with PKI without persisting tokens, then revocations events are fairly solid | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | and parallel testing likely needs to be punted for J1 - i can do some of the scafolding in place post feb 18, because it is test restructuing. but bigger changes - likely will land there | 18:07 |
| atiwari | ok | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:07 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: so PLEASE get that going that'll be awesome :D | 18:07 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: see my email to the -dev list from a little bit earlier today on that logging issue | 18:07 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: will retarget now | 18:07 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: I did. | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ayoung, since the kvs refactor and other stuff is up for review now. ephemeral is my last BP that hasn't got code up | 18:07 |
| ayoung | revocation events getting solid. yoriksar did such a good review I made him a co-author | 18:07 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: blueprint oslo-messaging | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, awesome!!! | 18:07 |
| dolphm | bknudson: s3 token is unblocked now :) | 18:08 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: cool | 18:08 |
| bknudson | dolphm: great... I think I need to update the requirements and then get that to keystone then update keystone. | 18:08 |
| dolphm | ayoung: awesome | 18:08 |
| ayoung | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/oslo-messaging | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, can https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/role-assignments-unified-sql be done behind the scenes since it's not really a "feature" and not api impacting? | 18:09 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ you mean bump our dep to >0.5.0 ? | 18:09 |
| dstanek | i have a few commits coming today or tomorrow for blueprint password-rotation | 18:09 |
| bknudson | dolphm: right | 18:09 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, we'll need client changes to be able to make it work. My current plan is to get the code merged into server, then clone the module.py file into client and integrate it there | 18:09 |
| dolphm | dstanek: yay! | 18:09 |
| stevemar | dstanek, lookin forward to it | 18:09 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: is oslo-messaging realistic for icehouse? | 18:10 |
| dolphm | that seems ambitious :) | 18:10 |
| ayoung | dolphm, based on the glance implementation, I would say yes | 18:10 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: it's pretty much done - it's a simple set of patches | 18:10 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: good to hear - when will we see reviews? :D | 18:10 |
| ayoung | its dropping the dep on oslo notify and cloning the glance patch, single file. | 18:10 |
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| lbragstad | jamielennox: have any issues with the self.host we talked about a few nights ago? | 18:10 |
| lbragstad | and publisher_ids? | 18:11 |
| jamielennox | it might be worth rethinking later how we handle notifications but for now to do a swap that is just the same functionality is pretty simple | 18:11 |
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| jamielennox | dolphm: starts here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70661/ | 18:11 |
| dolphm | henry-nash isn't around, but does anyone know of progress against https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/role-assignments-unified-sql ? | 18:11 |
| ayoung | speaking of notifications: do we need to break change password out into its own notification? We revoke tokens based on that, and it is one of the few events that are not processed based on notifications | 18:11 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: addressed your comment on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70661/ can you have another look | 18:12 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: can you add links to the bp and update the bp status? the bot appears to be dead | 18:12 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: will do | 18:12 |
| jaypipes | jamielennox: did you see my patch to avoid using a global constant for dependency injection? | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i think we can do that behind the scenes | 18:12 |
| stevemar | dolphm, no idea, i could try to see if henry is around | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, it should have no API impact. in fact if it does, we are doing it wrong | 18:12 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad: no, it went fairly smoothly once i dropped it | 18:12 |
| topol | I just pinged henry | 18:12 |
| jamielennox | jaypipes: just woke up :) | 18:13 |
| lbragstad | jamielennox: good deal | 18:13 |
| stevemar | thanks topol | 18:13 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: but a lot of work would be easier if that was done | 18:13 |
| jaypipes | jamielennox: no worries :) | 18:13 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, aye | 18:13 |
| ayoung | jaypipes, he's in Brisbane...he's hard core | 18:13 |
| jamielennox | jaypipes: i'll have a look soon though because i'm not sure what you were going for with your comment | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, but i mean that can probably be an I3 target vs feb 18? | 18:13 |
| jaypipes | jamielennox: I pushed a patch with example code. | 18:13 |
| topol | or he cant sleep | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ^ not ayoung | 18:13 |
| jaypipes | jamielennox: feel free to use, or not. :) | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | it's... cleanup that looks like a BP vs. a "feature" | 18:14 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ah; it is a giant refactor though | 18:14 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, fair enough. | 18:14 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: the goal of feature proposal freeze is to avoid bugs, and have more time to review, identify and fix them | 18:14 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, that is the one big bit of cleanup i think i'll be sorry it's not in Icehouse if it does't make it... but we can't have everything | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | esp. if no work has been done on it | 18:15 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:15 |
| topol | Henry says he is coding that right now and 1st review will be in a few days | 18:15 |
| dolphm | any progress would be nice to have; it's big enough that it might benefit from being taken a table or two at a time | 18:16 |
| ayoung | If do put assignments all in one table, lets make the fields big enough to hold the composite userids (with the embedded domain Ids ) in them, or put an idneityt_domain field in there | 18:16 |
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| dolphm | topol: thanks! | 18:16 |
| topol | (he cant join) | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | topol, cool! | 18:16 |
| topol | from Henry: confusing there are two bp for the same one...here's the one I create a while back that I have marked as started: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/grant-table-rationalization | 18:16 |
| dolphm | i also just bumped https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/keystone-py3kcompat to ongoing | 18:17 |
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| stevemar | dolphm, good call ++ | 18:17 |
| dolphm | i3 wasn't really realistic for an end goal, but we've made a ton of progress on that front | 18:18 |
| dolphm | dstanek: thanks for the py33 gate ^ :D | 18:18 |
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| dstanek | dolphm: ma pleasure | 18:18 |
| dolphm | bknudson: know anything of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/i18n-logging ? | 18:18 |
| jamielennox | all the projects are blocked by eventlet for py3 i thought? | 18:18 |
| dstanek | i with all of our deps already worked on py3 | 18:19 |
| bknudson | it looks like they're updating webob requirement so maybe the py3k gate will do something. | 18:19 |
| dolphm | i'm not aware of luis' irc handle | 18:19 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: ++ | 18:19 |
| lbragstad | dolphm: luisg | 18:19 |
| dolphm | pinged him in -dev | 18:19 |
| bknudson | dolphm: my understanding is that it's implemented. I'll check on it. | 18:20 |
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| luisg | hi dolphm | 18:20 |
| dolphm | luisg: o/ | 18:20 |
| dolphm | luisg: i wanted to check in on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/i18n-logging | 18:21 |
| dolphm | are there patches in review for that / can we expect to see some soon? | 18:21 |
| topol | bknudosn is the i18n-logging Daisy's stuff? | 18:21 |
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| luisg | dolphm, afaik all the patches for that were already delivered by bknudson | 18:21 |
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| topol | (Daisy's stuff for keystone...) | 18:22 |
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| dolphm | luisg: bknudson: on the logging side? | 18:22 |
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| bknudson | luisg: it was probably included in an oslo-incubator sync... | 18:22 |
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| luisg | correct | 18:22 |
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| bknudson | so maybe all I need to check is if keystone is up-to-date with oslo-incubator log. | 18:22 |
| dolphm | bknudson: that's what the first step described by the bp -- last i checked there was something relevant in review for oslo | 18:22 |
| dolphm | don't recall it syncing | 18:23 |
| dolphm | bknudson: if you find a patch to call that one Implemented, will you link it in the whiteboard on that bp? | 18:23 |
| bknudson | dolphm: will do | 18:23 |
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| dolphm | and to put everyone to sleep again... | 18:25 |
| dolphm | #topic Why we should have reserved migrations for backports | 18:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Why we should have reserved migrations for backports (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:25 | |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/69884/ | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | zzzzz | 18:25 |
| dolphm | checkout the conversation around Jan 30 | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | i mean >.> | 18:25 |
| ayoung | Nope | 18:25 |
| dolphm | we got lucky in this case fortunately :) | 18:25 |
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| dolphm | anyway, it's solid demonstration of why we need https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/reserved-db-migrations-icehouse | 18:26 |
| ayoung | dolphm, we risk rewriting history with that approach....I really think we need to avoid doing that | 18:26 |
| topol | Im assuming the Jan 30 conversation is a dolphm "I told you so"??? | 18:26 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ? | 18:26 |
| ayoung | dolphm, if someone is tracking tip of tree | 18:26 |
| ayoung | and we slip in a migration, we mess them up | 18:26 |
| dolphm | ayoung: there's no rewriting of history in that case, as it's the same history being backported | 18:27 |
| ayoung | like, say that we reserve 40-45 | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, if the migration is idempotent, you make it happen "next" as well as previously in the backport | 18:27 |
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| bknudson | seems like if someone wants to add or remove an index then they can go ahead. | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i think that is the general approach. | 18:27 |
| ayoung | now we decide we need to use up a reservation, so 40 goes from no-op to doing something | 18:27 |
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| ayoung | if I look at a DB at version 45, has that been applied or not? | 18:27 |
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| dolphm | i'll contribute some docs explaining how reserved migrations work, and why they won't break anyone ever | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, anything backported _must_ be idempotent. | 18:28 |
| dolphm | #action dolphm to doc reserved migrations | 18:28 |
| topol | dolphm ++ docs would really help for vetting | 18:28 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, idempotent is only relevant if it is executed at least once | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i'm not saying i like backporting migrations | 18:28 |
| bknudson | just because we have the reserved migrations doesn't mean we have to use them anyways. | 18:28 |
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| ayoung | what if it is executed 0 times | 18:28 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, its like line number in basic | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, so you backport it and make it the "next" one, so it's now 40 and 50 for example | 18:29 |
| bknudson | are we going to have reserved migrations for extensions, too? | 18:29 |
| dolphm | ayoung: i'll write the docs, and you can comment on the approach there | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, new runs get the change, old runs get it earlier | 18:29 |
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| dolphm | i'll include them with the reserved migrations patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70153/ | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, but.. like i said not that i am for it, just how it would need to work | 18:29 |
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| dolphm | #topic Return fake users for federated users that don't exist? | 18:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Return fake users for federated users that don't exist? (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:30 | |
| dolphm | bknudson: o/ | 18:30 |
| ayoung | We are doing something wrong...but I suspect that is what the SQL alchemy migrations force on us. Alembic has a better approach, doesn't it? More Git like? | 18:30 |
| bknudson | ok, so this is because we can have assignments that don't point to users anymore. | 18:30 |
| dolphm | i think i've sufficiently confused myself on this topic | 18:30 |
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| bknudson | if you get users for project (v2 api), it returns all the users | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, yes, and no, some of the same issue, but you can reorder them as needed. | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, among other things. | 18:31 |
| bknudson | which now will 404 Not Found for those assignments to users that don't exist. | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, alembic is better, but not 100% solution | 18:31 |
| lbragstad | ayoung: ++ | 18:31 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: bknudson: save it for the relevant review | 18:31 |
| bknudson | I'm sure there's a few ways to handle the situation... | 18:31 |
| ayoung | dolphm, OK...I'll concede, so long as we use the reservations very sparingly | 18:31 |
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| bknudson | what I'm proposing is to build a fake user to return | 18:31 |
| bknudson | because then the caller at least knows the assignment is there and which user_id it's to. | 18:32 |
| dolphm | bknudson: it sounds to me like you're trying to code yourself out of a situation that we shouldn't be in at all | 18:32 |
| topol | bknudson what is the username and id for the fake user??? | 18:32 |
| dolphm | there shouldn't be role assignments on ephemeral users, period | 18:32 |
| bknudson | user-<user-id> | 18:32 |
| bknudson | so we should not allow creating an assignment to a user that doesn't exist? | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i thought we said federated had to have grants on a group. | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | not a federated user | 18:33 |
| * morganfainberg might be mis-remembering | 18:33 | |
| bknudson | this also applies to ldap users. | 18:33 |
| stevemar | topol, https://gist.github.com/dolph/5cfa70c02f5b141060c5#file-notes-md | 18:33 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ++ but almost everything in the keystone depends on the user_id..... | 18:33 |
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| bknudson | since the user might be deleted from ldap directly | 18:33 |
| ayoung | bknudson, so...this is the better long term solution: create a uer obnject at the start of the token pipelines. If that user object comes out of the backing store, or out of a SAML document, it is irrelevant | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, oh. | 18:33 |
| topol | I thought this was always going to be dynamic lookup of the federated user? | 18:33 |
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| dolphm | topol: what does that mean | 18:34 |
| ayoung | dolphm, there absoutelty should be roel assignments on ephemeral users | 18:34 |
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| morganfainberg | topol, you can't ask the idp about a user really. | 18:34 |
| dolphm | ayoung: that doesn't make sense | 18:34 |
| ayoung | SAML means you will not have seen the user before they hit the cluster | 18:34 |
| topol | means you dont have to store anything | 18:34 |
| marekd | ayoung: ++ | 18:34 |
| dolphm | ayoung: correct | 18:34 |
| dolphm | ayoung: and we drop them into groups, and they get role assignments that way | 18:34 |
| ayoung | I'm the teacher, I get the student list. I create a role assignemt for the users in my class. Come Day 1 they get their resources | 18:34 |
| bknudson | how are the group assignments done? | 18:35 |
| dolphm | ayoung: you assign roles to group=students, not user=student1, user=student2, user=student3 | 18:35 |
| bknudson | using identity groups? | 18:35 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, but groups are from Identity. They won't have a group in their SAML document that matches this | 18:35 |
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| ayoung | short of putting an ephemeral group construct, we need to allow direct role assignments. | 18:36 |
| bknudson | I'm guessing you can't put a non-existant user in a group | 18:36 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, doesn't the SAML also dictate groups? | 18:36 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: it can, but doesn't have to. | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, and wrt groups we only ever (iirc) reference the id | 18:36 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: I believe the federation mapping will asign groups. | 18:36 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, it *CAN* but it won't | 18:36 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: groups are from identity, yes-- i'm (perhaps falsely?) assuming that an identity backend will still be available? | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i meant via mapping | 18:36 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, its a difference between authorization and authentication. SAML will have the "static" view of the user from the central IT | 18:37 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:37 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, might not be anything there to map on | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, so we need "assignment" groups now? | 18:37 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: you just lost me | 18:37 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, probably, but direct role assignments come first | 18:37 |
| dstanek | i thought we were only assigning roles to groups and using mapping to match SAML to the groups | 18:37 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, i feel lost myself | 18:37 |
| dolphm | ayoung: define "direct" ? | 18:37 |
| ayoung | dolphm, user to project | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, that was my understadning | 18:38 |
| ayoung | as opposed to via groups | 18:38 |
| marekd | dstanek: that was the idea. | 18:38 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, dstanek , that sounds like a mapping needs to generate some group-like-reference (id) then? | 18:39 |
| bknudson | given a user-id, assignment backend doesn't know what group they're in, right? | 18:39 |
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| bknudson | because groups are calculated via mapping of user attrs which we don't have | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | and then you used the assertion to figure all that out each time? | 18:39 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: kind of, the problem is that almost everything regarding token_api token_provider_api assumes there is existing user in the backend.... | 18:39 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, that is something we can fix. | 18:40 |
| dolphm | marekd: that needs to change then | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, in-fact we should fix that | 18:40 |
| dolphm | i think we discussed that at the hackathon? | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, think so | 18:40 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: why would it need to generate an id? | 18:40 |
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| morganfainberg | dstanek, grants are based on the project/domain/whatever-group combination? | 18:40 |
| dolphm | mapping should output a list of group IDs | 18:40 |
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| morganfainberg | dstanek, so.. you need to be able to do some kind of lookup for the grant purpose? i think... | 18:41 |
| dolphm | so group-project-role + group-domain-role assignments are all you need | 18:41 |
| marekd | dolphm: me? that's relatively easy to fetch... | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | assuming we only have data in assignment (can't ask identity) it needs to be some consistent id we can reference.. or am i totally missing something? | 18:42 |
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| marekd | dolphm: but i am again super-confused. we spent like few hours discussing that and ended up with responding with a list of groups...the token+roles idea is again on a track? :( | 18:42 |
| dolphm | marekd: i was just making a general statement, but i'm glad it strikes you as easy :) | 18:42 |
| ayoung | user_id needs to be composed: one thing from SAML etc, one thing from Keystione (domain id) | 18:42 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: assignment can get the roles for a group given group id. | 18:42 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: i thought the mapping statically contained the group id | 18:42 |
| marekd | dolphm: NO IT DOESN'T :P | 18:42 |
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| ayoung | then we don't confirm that the user "exists" | 18:42 |
| dolphm | marekd: lol "that's relatively easy to fetch..." | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i'm very confused... if the user if coming from SAML / is federated, we are allowing them to be placed in a SQL (or LDAP) identity group? | 18:43 |
| dolphm | dstanek: correct, multiple potential group ids | 18:43 |
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| * dolphm federation is hard | 18:43 | |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: they're not put in the group in identity... we calculate the group IDs from the user properties. | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ok. so... the group is also ephemeral | 18:44 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: with federation identity is not involved. | 18:44 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: no | 18:44 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: no | 18:44 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: I don't think you'd have to define the group. | 18:44 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: i was assuming sql/ldap groups | 18:44 |
| marekd | dolphm: ++ | 18:44 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: define "calculate the group ID" ???? | 18:44 |
| ayoung | assume that a role assignment can be made to a group from an IdP prior to the group being created | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, that was my assumption here | 18:45 |
| dolphm | bknudson: mapping isn't inventing groups, nor creating groups that don't exist | 18:45 |
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| ayoung | cuz there will be no "group created" event | 18:45 |
| ayoung | just that some SAML doc comes in with an attribute that we map to a group. | 18:45 |
| marekd | mapping is a connector beetween real world (SAML) and a keystone local world... | 18:45 |
| bknudson | dolphm: what is there in the identity group that needs to be looked up to figure out what group a user is in? | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, do we care? i mean we don't get user_created events either? | 18:45 |
| marekd | so i assume the groups MUST alread exist. | 18:45 |
| ayoung | exzactly | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, i always assumed you'd effectivly "generate" the group based upon mapping and it would be IDP:<group something> | 18:46 |
| dolphm | bknudson: i don't understand the question | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, not go create ideneity group and then use saml to associate the user to that group | 18:46 |
| dolphm | bknudson: you don't ask identity what groups a user is in | 18:46 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: what for? you'd endup with a group without any roles... | 18:46 |
| ayoung | you can't query Identity. That is the new rule for Federation | 18:46 |
| ayoung | everything just comes in an either it works or they file a ticket | 18:46 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: if that's the case, i wouldn't call them groups at all | 18:47 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: somehow i must map SAML assertion into an ephemeral user with set of roles... | 18:47 |
| bknudson | do we need a new kind of federated user/group role assignment? | 18:47 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: the goal was to map ephemeral users into identity groups and let assignments do it's thing | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, no, you could still assign roles to the "emphemeral group" it just would be created on-the-fly e.g. has attribute contractor, this maps to <IDP>:contractor | 18:47 |
| dolphm | bknudson: please no | 18:47 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, since assignment doesn't care if a group exists (or a user) (or it shouldn't) | 18:47 |
| dolphm | bknudson: not outside the scope of mapping, anyway | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | i was just massively confused on implementation | 18:48 |
| dolphm | it seems that the "assignment drivers shouldn't be talking to identity drivers" conversation got very confused with the federation conversation | 18:48 |
| bknudson | I don't understand why the group would have to exist... does it need to have the user_id (?) as a member? | 18:48 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: on what basis would you assign those roles to the ephemeral groups? another set of api calls? | 18:48 |
| dolphm | those were to separate topics with separate goals | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | i don't particularly like crossing federated -> non-federated identity stuff, but it might be the only approach. | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, same calls we have now. | 18:48 |
| bknudson | will federation do identity_api.get_group(group_id) and verify it exists f? | 18:48 |
| dolphm | bknudson: what's the point in having a group that doesn't exist? | 18:49 |
| bknudson | you can assign roles to the group id ... the group doesn't have to exist for that. | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | what we need to be able to do is to say "I have a user or group coming in with SAML attribute foo. What ID will they get? Use that to create an assignment for Role on Project" | 18:50 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: no one cares what ID they get -- we care about their authorization | 18:50 |
| dolphm | ayoung: so we care about mapping the ephemeral user into identity groups, and picking up any authorization that implies | 18:50 |
| bknudson | I also didn't think that federated users got an id. | 18:51 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, problem still stands even if you just say "groups" | 18:51 |
| ayoung | but I think direct user assignments are going to be very common. If we write them out of the equation, people will get annoyed | 18:51 |
| ayoung | "why do I need to create a group for a single person"? | 18:52 |
| ayoung | You'll have groups that are basically based on the user ID...ugh | 18:52 |
| dolphm | ayoung: SAML attribute foo --> foo_group --> foo_group:foo_role:foo_project -> scoped token for foo_project with foo_role | 18:52 |
| ayoung | l;ets not do that | 18:52 |
| ayoung | dolphm, but if the only reliable attribute tha comes is the one that uniqely identifies the user? | 18:52 |
| ayoung | we are going to have Posix groups. | 18:53 |
| ayoung | ayoung:ayoung where user ayoung is the only member of the group ayoung | 18:53 |
| bknudson | it makes sense to me to have some kind of user_id that can come out of federation auth just like a list of group_ids. | 18:53 |
| dstanek | ayoung: are user-based role assignments common? | 18:53 |
| marekd | bknudson: always? | 18:53 |
| dolphm | if anything, the end is one group per one capability/rule/permission in policy.json | 18:53 |
| bknudson | marekd: I don't think user_id has to be required. | 18:54 |
| bknudson | just like maybe group_ids are required. | 18:54 |
| bknudson | maybe group_ids aren't required | 18:54 |
| ayoung | unify users and groups into one entity? Composite pattern? Party Pattern? | 18:54 |
| bknudson | do allow mapping to no groups? | 18:54 |
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| ayoung | yes | 18:55 |
| ayoung | groups are optional | 18:55 |
| dolphm | but then you get zero authorization | 18:55 |
| dolphm | and can't use opentack | 18:55 |
| dolphm | but sure, they're otherwise optional | 18:55 |
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| marekd | user is optional too. | 18:55 |
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| marekd | at least in the current state of the mapping engine.. | 18:55 |
| ayoung | lets keep it consistent with the current auth model: users can get role assignments in federation. | 18:55 |
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| stevemar | marekd, currently everything is optional :) | 18:56 |
| marekd | ayoung: but what if rule engine doesn't return a user, just a set of groups? | 18:56 |
| marekd | that's my concern... | 18:56 |
| ayoung | marekd, they need to have a user id | 18:56 |
| ayoung | Nova needs it for ownership | 18:56 |
| dolphm | marekd: some sort of user identifier either needs to be required, or having a user identifier as an output of mapping shouldn't be a feature at all | 18:56 |
| ayoung | group can be optional, but not userid | 18:56 |
| dolphm | i'm fine with either way, but everyone seems to want ephemeral IDs | 18:57 |
| bknudson | ayoung: that's a good point... other projs might need user id | 18:57 |
| ayoung | bknudson, they do | 18:57 |
| ayoung | both Swift and Nova rely on it | 18:57 |
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| marekd | so, rule engine will be obliged to issue a user_id. | 18:57 |
| dstanek | user id is very useful in auditing | 18:57 |
| dolphm | ayoung: they shouldn't | 18:57 |
| bknudson | it can be ephemeral -- maybe it's like "IdP:username" | 18:57 |
| dolphm | ayoung: i don't know that we'd break anything meaningful in nova if we didn't give them user identifiers | 18:58 |
| stevemar | marekd, I guess so, but if I don't see any user related stuff, I can just leave it out | 18:58 |
| ayoung | bknudson, so | 18:58 |
| dolphm | dstanek: that's the *only* push back i get for dropping user identifiers :) | 18:58 |
| ayoung | userid@@domainid is my suggestion | 18:58 |
| marekd | stevemar: no, i should be able to assume that you will give me a userid. | 18:58 |
| ayoung | one part from the IdP (userid) and one part from keystone (domainid) | 18:59 |
| ayoung | 1 minute | 18:59 |
| marekd | stevemar: otherwise what do i put in the token['user_id'] ? | 18:59 |
| bknudson | ayoung: do we need to define the format? the mapping will just generate one. | 18:59 |
| dolphm | dstanek: in which case, i *want* the answer to be sha1(token) gets audited, and you can trace with that | 18:59 |
| * dolphm 1 min | 18:59 | |
| marekd | -dev? | 18:59 |
| dolphm | ++ | 18:59 |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 18:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 4 18:59:50 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-02-04-18.01.html | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-02-04-18.01.txt | 18:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-02-04-18.01.log.html | 18:59 |
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| bknudson | well, you can look at the review and decide if it's a good idea to return a fake user or not. | 19:00 |
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| pleia2 | o/ | 19:01 |
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| lifeless | SpamapS: could you get the ball rolling; I have an ELOCAL for a bit | 19:01 |
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| dkehn | hi | 19:01 |
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| fungi | heyo! infra meeting? | 19:02 |
| jeblair | hello infra folks! | 19:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 19:02 |
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| clarkb | hithere | 19:02 |
| gothicmindfood | hola jeblair | 19:02 |
| jeblair | fungi: would you like to chair since i've been on airplanes? | 19:02 |
| fungi | jeblair: glad to | 19:02 |
| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 4 19:02:48 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:02 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:03 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 19:03 |
| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
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| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-01-28-19.01.html | 19:03 |
| SpamapS | lifeless: sure.. | 19:03 |
| fungi | mrmartin work with smarcet to get through infra processes | 19:04 |
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| fungi | that's been happening | 19:04 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/69636/4 | 19:04 |
| fungi | mordred find a way to run manage-projects automagically without puppet | 19:04 |
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| fungi | updates on that? anything newer than in the bug? | 19:05 |
| jeblair | fungi: can you _very_ quickly update me on why that's necessary? | 19:05 |
| jeblair | is it in the bug? | 19:05 |
| anteaya | he has been sick, I have been talking with UtahDave about salting it | 19:05 |
| anteaya | then UtahDave has been sick | 19:05 |
| anteaya | no code yet | 19:05 |
| fungi | jeblair: seems the issue we're encountering only arises when manage-projects is called from puppet agent | 19:05 |
| clarkb | we have a 100% success rate when run by hand | 19:05 |
| jeblair | fungi: is it more complicated than the 10min exec timeout? | 19:06 |
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| fungi | jeblair: mordred had suggested punting and working around the puppet call with an additional layer | 19:06 |
| clarkb | jeblair: yes, it actually does create the projects and some of the groups but not all of the groups | 19:06 |
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| clarkb | which indicates the timeout isn't being hit, but weirdness is happening | 19:06 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: does it log? | 19:07 |
| clarkb | jeblair: I think so but not with the -v flag when run by puppet iirc | 19:07 |
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| fungi | one of my suggestions in the bug was to either figure out why the exec stdout/stderr capture in puppet isn't working as advertised, or to add a python logging config for manage-projects, but i haven't foung time to look into either of those | 19:08 |
| jeblair | okay, well, this idea that we can't figure out what this simple program is doing is way too voodoo for me.... | 19:08 |
| clarkb | jeblair: fungi: puppet execs are weird and voodoo like | 19:09 |
| clarkb | they are documented as such | 19:09 |
| jeblair | i would like manage-projects to get proper logging and log what it's doing so we can see what's actually happening | 19:09 |
| clarkb | and the recommendation from puppetlabs is to not use them | 19:09 |
| clarkb | but I am all for better logging | 19:09 |
| jeblair | clarkb: do they fail at calling fork/exec? | 19:09 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: yes | 19:09 |
| clarkb | well they blame ruby, but yes | 19:10 |
| jeblair | clarkb: how does anything in puppet work? | 19:10 |
| jeblair | i mean we exec stuff _all the time_ | 19:10 |
| jeblair | are they not closing fd's properly or something? | 19:10 |
| clarkb | no it has to do with environment stuff | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | okay, so basically we're not anywhere near being able to automatically create new projects | 19:11 |
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| jeblair | should we resume the moratorium on approving new projects? | 19:12 |
| fungi | right. mordred has resorted to manually running manage-projects after new project configs merge | 19:12 |
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| fungi | and we merged a puppet config change to disable the exec temporarily | 19:13 |
| jeblair | ok | 19:13 |
| fungi | we should capture more of this into the bug | 19:13 |
| fungi | #link https://launchpad.net/bugs/1242569 | 19:13 |
| jeblair | so mordred is in charge of semi-manual new project creation until that bug is fixed | 19:13 |
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| fungi | #action mordred continue looking into bug 1242569 | 19:14 |
| jeblair | if that's the case, that works for me | 19:14 |
| fungi | i do agree that "let's just not use puppet" seems like a bit of a kluge | 19:15 |
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| fungi | but maybe not, without a more detailed proposal it's hard to say | 19:15 |
| jeblair | yes. i think we need proper logging regardless of how it's invoked. | 19:15 |
| anteaya | sorry, I guess I mis-understood then, I thought that was where we were last week | 19:15 |
| jeblair | i'm just plain embarrassed that we're like "it's broken and we don't know why because we don't know what the computer is doing". | 19:15 |
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| fungi | i concur | 19:16 |
| jeblair | i've dragged this on enough though; please continue | 19:16 |
| fungi | we have an agenda item for this, so we can pick it up again in a bit if needed | 19:16 |
| fungi | clarkb upgrade jenkins.o.o and jenkins01 to 1.543 and upgrade zmq plugin and scp plugin everywhere | 19:17 |
| fungi | that all happened, correct? | 19:17 |
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| clarkb | that is all done but the zmq bit ebcause there is an outstanding review to fix the master name reportig | 19:17 |
| clarkb | so the action can be updated to: | 19:17 |
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| clarkb | #action clarkb upgrade zmq plugin everywhere to report master name in events | 19:17 |
| fungi | oh, i missed that the master name patch was buggy. have a link to the fix? | 19:17 |
| clarkb | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/69763/ | 19:18 |
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| fungi | fungi move graphite whisper files to faster volume | 19:18 |
| fungi | jeblair actually moved these to a cinder volume | 19:18 |
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| jeblair | fungi: oh do we want to move that from spinning to ssd? | 19:19 |
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| fungi | we should keep tabs on performance and see whether it improves before pvmoving it to an ssd volume | 19:19 |
| fungi | but should be trivial now that it's lvm | 19:19 |
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| jeblair | fungi: ok. also, that host would probably benefit from a move to performance flavor | 19:20 |
| jeblair | which should also be easier now :) | 19:20 |
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| fungi | #action fungi see if graphite whisper files need to be moved to a faster pv or faster vm | 19:20 |
| fungi | (since i fell down on getting it taken care of so far, it's only fair) | 19:20 |
| fungi | also didn't get around to... | 19:21 |
| fungi | #action fungi prune obsolete whisper files automatically on graphite server | 19:21 |
| jeblair | that's hard because some metrics don't report very often | 19:21 |
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| fungi | is once a month sane there? | 19:21 |
| fungi | once a quarter? | 19:21 |
| fungi | how often is not very often? | 19:21 |
| jeblair | fungi: i'm thinking some release jobs only happen twice a year | 19:21 |
| fungi | ahh, yep | 19:22 |
| fungi | ick | 19:22 |
| jeblair | so the easy answer is prune after 1 year; more frequently becomes tricky. | 19:22 |
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| fungi | i can start by seeing if we have any whisper files untouched for a year | 19:22 |
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| fungi | if we've had a graphite server that long | 19:22 |
| fungi | anteaya assist mordred in automating manage-projects again | 19:22 |
| jeblair | could probably do like 8 months or so | 19:22 |
| clarkb | we can probalby also manually prune using a list generated by find | 19:23 |
| clarkb | a lot of things will be obviously obsolete | 19:23 |
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| fungi | i guess that ties back in with the earlier bug 1242569 discussion | 19:23 |
| jeblair | clarkb: yeah, with some thinking we could identify metrics that zuul/nodepool don't use anymore. | 19:23 |
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| fungi | anteaya: were you still working with mordred on bug 1242569? | 19:24 |
| anteaya | I had it on my radar | 19:24 |
| anteaya | as of yet, no progress | 19:24 |
| anteaya | he was sick | 19:24 |
| fungi | should we keep that as an action item for next week? | 19:24 |
| anteaya | may as well | 19:24 |
| fungi | #action anteaya assist mordred in automating manage-projects again | 19:25 |
| anteaya | thanks | 19:25 |
| fungi | push for improved logging first to see whether it's necessary | 19:25 |
| fungi | i know this hasn't happened yet... | 19:25 |
| anteaya | k | 19:25 |
| fungi | #action mordred to lift virtualenv 1.10.1 pin when we're ready to babysit it | 19:25 |
| anteaya | yes, that is my name on the logging bug | 19:25 |
| fungi | zaro to point zuul-dev at gerrit-dev | 19:26 |
| fungi | zaro: that happened right? | 19:26 |
| zaro | done | 19:26 |
| fungi | awesome! | 19:26 |
| dguitarbite | hey guys, I have something to discuss if possible | 19:26 |
| fungi | dguitarbite: is it on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting ? | 19:26 |
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| fungi | if not, i can try to work it in | 19:27 |
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| fungi | zaro to review jeepyb integration with new gerrit and update gerritlib for gerrit 2.8 | 19:27 |
| fungi | i know i saw some work on that as well | 19:27 |
| zaro | done. | 19:27 |
| fungi | that's continuing, right? | 19:27 |
| fungi | oh, even better | 19:27 |
| zaro | it's done. | 19:27 |
| fungi | great | 19:27 |
| zaro | fixes have been pushed to review.oo | 19:28 |
| zaro | #linkhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/69800 | 19:28 |
| zaro | fix gerrit hooks - #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/69791 | 19:28 |
| zaro | fix replicate command - #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/69768 | 19:29 |
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| dguitarbite | fungi: thanks | 19:30 |
| zaro | ok. nothing more on that testing. | 19:30 |
| zaro | ohh just wanted to mention that tested the following scripts with gerrit 2.8: expire_old_reviews.py, manage_projects.py, update_blueprint.py, update_bug.py, welcome_message.py, openstackwatch.py | 19:31 |
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| fungi | anything major worth reporting on that real quick, or just want to plug the etherpad issues list? | 19:32 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gerrit-2.8-upgrade | 19:32 |
| fungi | okay, so we've got half the meeting slot left. i'll try to blow through topics which we covered in the action items | 19:32 |
| fungi | also, my irc client's lag timer keeps creeping up, no idea whether freenode is still under a ddos, but i'll add clarkb as an optional chair in case i vanish | 19:32 |
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| fungi | #chair clarkb | 19:32 |
| openstack | Current chairs: clarkb fungi | 19:32 |
| fungi | #topic Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap, SlickNik) | 19:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap, SlickNik) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:32 | |
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| fungi | looks like only mordred is in channel | 19:33 |
| fungi | we can come back to this one at the end of they show up | 19:33 |
| clarkb | that was the case last week. ++ to shifting | 19:33 |
| pleia2 | and several weeks | 19:33 |
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| fungi | wow meetbot is sluggish | 19:33 |
| pleia2 | is there a bug to track it? maybe we pull from agenda for now | 19:33 |
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| SlickNik | hello | 19:33 |
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| fungi | howdy SlickNik | 19:34 |
| fungi | any quick updates on "Trove testing" | 19:34 |
| fungi | ? | 19:34 |
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| SlickNik | I have a patch out to tempest (basic trove flavor API tests) waiting on reviews. | 19:35 |
| SlickNik | one sec | 19:35 |
| SlickNik | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/69501/ | 19:35 |
| SlickNik | I'm working on adding more tests | 19:35 |
| SlickNik | Also the gate job has been set up and is running on jenkins. | 19:36 |
| SlickNik | It's non-voting as of now. | 19:36 |
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| fungi | okay, great | 19:36 |
| fungi | that's some awesome progress | 19:36 |
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| jeblair | yaaay! | 19:36 |
| fungi | since we use trove for some of our infrastrucutre (and soon hopefully much more) i'm glad it's being tested ;) | 19:37 |
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| fungi | moving on quickly... | 19:37 |
| fungi | #topic Tripleo testing (lifeless, pleia2, fungi) | 19:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tripleo testing (lifeless, pleia2, fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:37 | |
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| fungi | we've had some setbacks with nodepool bugs/tripleo-ci outages but all in all things are progressing | 19:38 |
| pleia2 | yeah, continuing to work on getting fedora in the gate too (helps tripleo and some other things we want to do) | 19:38 |
| fungi | anything in particular we should be aware of beyond that for now? | 19:39 |
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| pleia2 | I don't think so, gritty details otherwise were covered in tripleo meeting | 19:39 |
| fungi | as an aside, i've got puppet agent temporarily disabled on nodepool.openstack.org until the tripleo-ci provider is back up and running, which i gather will probably be some time later today. for now it's been deleted out of nodepool.yaml since it was bringing new bugs to the surface we haven't had time to dig into yet | 19:40 |
| clarkb | I do think we may need to consider reverting some of those nodepool changes though. Should debug the slow deletes first, but performance is worse than before | 19:41 |
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| pleia2 | thanks for staying on top of that, fungi | 19:41 |
| fungi | which is why all the tripleo jobs are in a pending state in zuul's status | 19:41 |
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| fungi | #topic Requested StackForge project rename (fungi, clarkb, zhiwei) | 19:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Requested StackForge project rename (fungi, clarkb, zhiwei) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:42 | |
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| fungi | no update on this... it's still pending hearing back from zhiwei but we'll probably also be moving some oslo libs out of stackforge to openstack | 19:42 |
| fungi | so we can try to time those together | 19:43 |
| clarkb | and savanna if they choose a new name | 19:43 |
| jeblair | oh neato | 19:43 |
| fungi | also maybe savanna renames if they work out what their new name is | 19:43 |
| fungi | what clarkb said | 19:43 |
| dhellmann | this item is on the agenda twice, because I didn't notice that until the meeting started | 19:43 |
| fungi | dhellmann: no worries | 19:43 |
| SergeyLukjanov | fungi, yup, we're searching new name atm | 19:43 |
| dhellmann | and we're up to 4 libraries moving into oslo, not just the 3 mentioned on the agenda :-) | 19:43 |
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| fungi | we'll hit it at that point on the agenda | 19:43 |
| fungi | or now is fine | 19:44 |
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| clarkb | SergeyLukjanov: `cat /dev/urandom | tr -dc '[:alpha:]' | head -c6` | 19:44 |
| fungi | dhellmann: and you have a change up for that already too, right? | 19:44 |
| SergeyLukjanov | fungi, my estimate is 2-3 weeks | 19:44 |
| dhellmann | fungi: either works, I don't have much to say unless there are questions | 19:44 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: yes | 19:44 |
| dhellmann | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70435/ | 19:44 |
| SergeyLukjanov | clarkb, :) | 19:44 |
| annegentle | savanna is definitely out though? | 19:44 |
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| fungi | #topic Oslo adopting some stackforge libs (dhellmann) | 19:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Oslo adopting some stackforge libs (dhellmann) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:44 | |
| fungi | since we seem to be doing that | 19:44 |
| fungi | cliff, stevedore, taskflow and... | 19:45 |
| dhellmann | pycadf | 19:45 |
| fungi | excellent | 19:45 |
| fungi | dhellmann: is that an asap move, or do you need some lead time/. | 19:45 |
| fungi | ? | 19:45 |
| dhellmann | fungi: we're ready when you all are | 19:45 |
| dhellmann | there's no particular hurry, but sooner is better, so I think I'd rather not wait for savanna to pick a name if that's the only thing holding us up | 19:46 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | dhellmann, agreed, it could take up to a month for savanna | 19:46 |
| fungi | i think i'm free this weekend, but would appreciate at least one other infra core on hand in case we get into the weeds | 19:46 |
| clarkb | fungi: I am maybe free this weekend | 19:47 |
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| clarkb | no plans yet but the planning of possibilities has started... | 19:47 |
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| dhellmann | I have a family thing this weekend, or I'd hang out with you guys -- I'm not sure I'll be much more than moral support, though :-) | 19:47 |
| fungi | dhellmann: well, we'll have .gitreview file patches which you'll want someone to merge | 19:48 |
| jeblair | we could do it friday afternoon... | 19:48 |
| fungi | i'm cool with that | 19:48 |
| dhellmann | friday works for me | 19:49 |
| fungi | activity seems to be mostly dead on friday afternoons north-american time | 19:49 |
| jeblair | cool, and it's just a few mins of downtime | 19:49 |
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| fungi | yep | 19:49 |
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| fungi | what do we think... 20:00 utc friday then? | 19:49 |
| fungi | that's noon pst i think. go later? | 19:50 |
| dhellmann | I'm in EST, so that time is great for me, but later works too | 19:51 |
| jeblair | that time or later wfm; your pick | 19:51 |
| fungi | yeah, i'm in est as well | 19:51 |
| fungi | okay, let's do 20:00 utc. good compromise without pushing pst friday lunch too far out | 19:51 |
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| dhellmann | I'll be there | 19:52 |
| jeblair | ++ | 19:52 |
| fungi | #agreed will rename new oslo projects on friday 2014-02-07 at 20:00 utc | 19:52 |
| clarkb | sounds good | 19:52 |
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| fungi | pulling some topics out of order for the last few minutes | 19:53 |
| fungi | #topic Request for a new branch of openstack/operations-guide for ongoing O'Reilly work (annegentle) | 19:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Request for a new branch of openstack/operations-guide for ongoing O'Reilly work (annegentle) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:53 | |
| fungi | annegentle: i can do this--just get up with me after the meeting | 19:53 |
| fungi | #topic Storyboard update (jeblair) | 19:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Storyboard update (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:54 | |
| jeblair | oh neat! | 19:54 |
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| jeblair | so we had a really good meeting; see the etherpad for what we captured | 19:54 |
| jeblair | should have _basic_ functionality real soon | 19:54 |
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| jeblair | i would have said by wednesday | 19:54 |
| jeblair | but krotscheck_sick is sick | 19:54 |
| jeblair | so it could be later than that | 19:54 |
| zaro | said he was going on vacation too right? | 19:55 |
| jeblair | hopefully with the basic arch in place, it'll be easier for others to pitch in and cargo-cult forms and stuff. :) | 19:55 |
| annegentle | fungi: sounds good | 19:55 |
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| jeblair | zaro: yes, he has vacation scheduled after his illness | 19:55 |
| fungi | going on vacation sick is such a waste of a vacation. he should just work instead ;) | 19:55 |
| jeblair | anyway, once that's done we can start using it to dogfood storyboard and for infra projects | 19:55 |
| jeblair | it will lack _many_ features, but we can start adding them quickly | 19:56 |
| jeblair | this is all under the "minimum viable product" on the etherpad | 19:56 |
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| fungi | the lack of features will drive us to add what we need, i suspect | 19:56 |
| fungi | good for itch-scratching | 19:57 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: that's the plan. To psychologically compel contributions with super bare features. :) | 19:57 |
| jeblair | gothicmindfood: have the etherpad link handy? | 19:57 |
| ttx | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/StoryboardMeetup | 19:58 |
| jeblair | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/StoryboardMeetup | 19:58 |
| gothicmindfood | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/StoryboardMeetup | 19:58 |
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| jeblair | [eot] | 19:58 |
| gothicmindfood | ha. jeblair and ttx were quicker | 19:58 |
| ttx | years of training | 19:58 |
| gothicmindfood | we all owe each other cokes. | 19:58 |
| * fungi is so very excited | 19:58 | |
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| jeblair | oh | 19:58 |
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| lifeless | ttx: sorry, I have to run a short errand mid-meeting (C->kindy) - bbs | 19:59 |
| gothicmindfood | and fwiw - I am currently putting together an etherpad set of stories related exclusively to Storyboard authentication | 19:59 |
| gothicmindfood | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/StoryboardAuth | 19:59 |
| jeblair | also, http://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/ is in puppet and should do things like upgrade (including db migrations) as needed automatically | 19:59 |
| gothicmindfood | I even have nice diagrams in powerpoint form | 19:59 |
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| jeblair | #action jeblair get ssl cert for storyboard | 19:59 |
| fungi | very productive | 19:59 |
| fungi | sarob: on the moodle app integration for training manuals thing (dguitarbite seems to have vanished), we can talk over in #openstack-infra if you like | 20:00 |
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| fungi | we're at time | 20:00 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 4 20:00:14 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-02-04-19.02.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-02-04-19.02.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-02-04-19.02.log.html | 20:00 |
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| fungi | thanks everybody! | 20:00 |
| jeblair | fungi: thanks! | 20:00 |
| anteaya | fungi: nice chairing | 20:00 |
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| * fungi uses an overstuffed chair | 20:00 | |
| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
| mikal | Yep | 20:00 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:00 |
| zehicle_at_dell | +1 | 20:01 |
| jraim | I'm here for Barbican | 20:01 |
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| markmc | hey | 20:01 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:01 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | russellb, annegentle, mordred, jgriffith, vishy, markmcclain, lifeless, sdague : around ? | 20:01 |
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| markmcclain | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | I know russellb is probably not around | 20:01 |
| annegentle | aroo | 20:01 |
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| ttx | and sdague in Korea | 20:01 |
| jgriffith | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | and 7. Quorum reached | 20:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 4 20:02:18 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #topic Defcore sub-committee questions about Projects vs Programs | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Defcore sub-committee questions about Projects vs Programs (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | zehicle: hi! | 20:03 |
| zehicle_at_dell | hey | 20:03 |
| ttx | zehicle: could you summarize what those questions or concerns are ? | 20:03 |
| zehicle_at_dell | #topic programs | 20:03 |
| zehicle_at_dell | yes | 20:03 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:03 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | discussion is about basically about order/membership between programs and projects | 20:04 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | and there's a follow-on about how programs are authorized | 20:04 |
| ttx | OK, I think there is confusion around the program concept. | 20:04 |
| ttx | As far as "core" in concerned, the board should really only be looking at projects imho. | 20:04 |
| ttx | My basic definition would be: | 20:04 |
| zehicle_at_dell | my understanding of OpenStack Programs is that they are meta constructs for OpenStack that abstract large areas of function | 20:04 |
| ttx | Projects are code repositories ("openstack/nova") | 20:04 |
| zehicle_at_dell | e.g.: compute, network, storage, etc | 20:04 |
| ttx | Programs are actually *teams* working on a number of those code repostories, aligned with a mission statement ("Infrastructure") | 20:05 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | they also help protect OpenStack from name collisions | 20:05 |
| ttx | I think all the confusion stems from sometimes reusing the openstack functional name (i.e. "Compute") as the program name... | 20:05 |
| zehicle_at_dell | as such, a program would contain >0 projects | 20:05 |
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| ttx | ...while one of the projects below them (nova) is also using that functional name (= "OpenStack Compute") | 20:05 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, my understading is the OpenStack Compute _is_ the program name | 20:06 |
| ttx | the program name is "compute" | 20:06 |
| annegentle | For docs, we have a list for conventional use https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Conventions#Service_and_project_names | 20:06 |
| ttx | I guess we could rename some of the programs if that helped reducing the confusion | 20:06 |
| ttx | zehicle: basically, the team working on nova and python-novaclient is the compute team | 20:07 |
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| jeblair | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/programs.yaml | 20:07 |
| zehicle_at_dell | what about glance? | 20:07 |
| ttx | the progral just reflects the structure of the dev teams | 20:07 |
| zehicle_at_dell | hold on | 20:07 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I see the wiki | 20:07 |
| ttx | the team working on glance and python-glanceclient is the image service team | 20:07 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | so, are you suggesting that every project eventually becomes a program? | 20:08 |
| ttx | zehicle: no | 20:08 |
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| ttx | zehicle: really, it's reusing the same name that creates the confusion | 20:08 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I don't think this matches how we're talking about OpenStack to users - jbryce said that he's focused on "capabliities" whichi are also described as compute, network, etc | 20:09 |
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| ttx | zehicle: we couldn't be having this discussion if the team working on nova and python-novaclient was called the Albator team | 20:09 |
| ttx | s/couldn't/wouldn't/ | 20:09 |
| vishy | i think it makes sense to just consider a program to be a grouping of projects | 20:09 |
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| vishy | i.e. a program is a set containing 0..n projects | 20:09 |
| ttx | vishy: right | 20:09 |
| zehicle_at_dell | that's where I was going | 20:09 |
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| ttx | zehicle: but from the core / board perspective I think you should be looking at projects | 20:10 |
| jeblair | as long as the group can contain 0 projects | 20:10 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, no sure | 20:10 |
| ttx | zehicle: programs are just a way to reflect the dev teams organization | 20:10 |
| vishy | ttx: as far as I can tell they are ignoring projects completely and going with capabilities | 20:10 |
| zehicle_at_dell | the board has been working to use capabilities/tests to define core | 20:10 |
| markmc | zehicle, yes jbryce should be talking about capabilities, more than the groups implementing those | 20:10 |
| ttx | and structure reflects how we work, rather than the other way around | 20:10 |
| vishy | s/they/we (i suppose) :) | 20:10 |
| zehicle_at_dell | but there's still a question about use of the OpenStack trademark | 20:10 |
| ttx | zehicle: in program names ? | 20:11 |
| zehicle_at_dell | there's a question about how a project can use the OpenStack trademark | 20:11 |
| ttx | zehicle: or in project names | 20:11 |
| zehicle_at_dell | since we get into challenges w/ OpenStack Neutron, etc | 20:11 |
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| ttx | agreed | 20:11 |
| zehicle_at_dell | Program Names are 1) generic and 2) can hold a trademark | 20:11 |
| markmc | zehicle, yes there is that trademark question and the TC is keen to see the board resolve it | 20:11 |
| zehicle_at_dell | so, OpenStack Compute should be protectable | 20:11 |
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| ttx | zehicle: the program name is "compute", not "openstack compute", though* | 20:12 |
| zehicle_at_dell | if we agree that Nova is a member of Compute, then we've have a clear way to describe the project | 20:12 |
| zehicle_at_dell | OpenStack Compute Project Nova | 20:12 |
| markmc | "OpenStack Compute" is another name for the project | 20:13 |
| ttx | zehicle: hmmm... not sure about that | 20:13 |
| markmc | not the program | 20:13 |
| zehicle_at_dell | not according to what vishy was saying | 20:13 |
| ttx | "Compute" program has openstack/nova proiject, also known as "OpenStack Compute" | 20:13 |
| zehicle_at_dell | Nova is a member of Compute | 20:13 |
| zehicle_at_dell | but compute could have other memembers | 20:13 |
| markmc | Nova is a member of the compute program | 20:13 |
| markmc | and the Nova project is also known as OpenStack Compute | 20:13 |
| zehicle_at_dell | what is the objection to the Capital C? | 20:14 |
| markmc | the compute program could have other projects | 20:14 |
| annegentle | Compute needs images to give capabilities though | 20:14 |
| markmc | whose official names may be OpenStack Foobar | 20:14 |
| zehicle_at_dell | why is compute better/different than Compute | 20:14 |
| jeblair | indeed the compute program also holds the gantt and python-novaclient projects | 20:14 |
| ttx | zehicle: "compute" avoids using the trademark altogether | 20:14 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | I've been told that Compute also includes glance | 20:14 |
| zehicle_at_dell | not sure that avoiding the trademark is needed/helpful | 20:15 |
| markmc | the compute program doesn't include glance | 20:15 |
| ttx | Glance is developed by a separate team, so Glance is in a separate program | 20:15 |
| zehicle_at_dell | since we specifically want to be able to say "OpenStack Foo" | 20:15 |
| zehicle_at_dell | so we have to deal w/ trademark | 20:15 |
| markmc | and OpenStack Compute is not another name for the glance project | 20:15 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | I think we're back to the issue | 20:15 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I see glance as a project | 20:15 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | that is a member of a program | 20:15 |
| markmc | it is | 20:15 |
| markmc | indeed | 20:15 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | it's not the only member of a program, | 20:15 |
| annegentle | and the program is not "Images" it's "Compute" | 20:16 |
| zehicle_at_dell | why should it be the only member? | 20:16 |
| ttx | annegentle: ? | 20:16 |
| * annegentle attempts to complete zehicle_at_dell's thoughts | 20:16 | |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, it's the only member right now | 20:16 |
| markwash | well, python-glanceclient sort of | 20:16 |
| jeblair | glance and python-glanceclient are the two members of the Image Service program | 20:16 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I am _not_ recommending any membership at this point, just using them as examples. that's a different discussion | 20:16 |
| ttx | markmc: well, not counting python-glanceclient | 20:16 |
| zehicle_at_dell | markmc, we agree on that on | 20:16 |
| markmc | ttx, yeah | 20:16 |
| zehicle_at_dell | but I'm not sure which programs we have | 20:17 |
| annegentle | @link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/programs.yaml | 20:17 |
| annegentle | er | 20:17 |
| annegentle | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/programs.yaml | 20:17 |
| markmc | ^^ that's our list of programs | 20:17 |
| zehicle_at_dell | sorry, I know which are posted | 20:17 |
| annegentle | zehicle_at_dell: that just reflects current reality | 20:17 |
| markmc | IOW, our list of teams | 20:17 |
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| * zehicle_at_dell gets broom | 20:17 | |
| ttx | zehicle: I'm starting to think we should have used DIFFERENT nati_ueno mes for the teams, to avoid confusion | 20:18 |
| ttx | names, not nati_ueno, stupid tab completion | 20:18 |
| zehicle_at_dell | perhaps | 20:18 |
| ttx | zehicle: note: we still can | 20:18 |
| ttx | zehicle: easy | 20:18 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I'm not sure that we need for projects to take on generic names | 20:18 |
| ttx | zehicle: would calling it the keystone team work better ? | 20:19 |
| zehicle_at_dell | maybe, but I think it's different | 20:19 |
| annegentle | zehicle_at_dell: honestly for docs and a user perspective we have to call it something meaningful not code-named | 20:19 |
| ttx | rather than the identity team ? | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: the project is the thing we release, and that's the place where the trademark is important, right? | 20:19 |
| ttx | dhellmann: +1 | 20:19 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, 20 minutes in, I really don't know what the DefCore related issue you're getting at here is | 20:19 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, maybe start again from that angle? | 20:19 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ah, circle is complete dhellmann | 20:19 |
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| joshuamckenty | markmc: I believe that was the reason we suggested a F@F | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | all of the rest of this is just organizing people, and i'm not sure why that matters so much outside of the people being organized | 20:19 |
| joshuamckenty | f@f | 20:19 |
| jeblair | annegentle: programs aren't really for consumption by docs or users though... really only openstack developers see them | 20:20 |
| zehicle_at_dell | TC asked the Board to approve then name change of Ceilometer to become a core prgram named OpenStack Telemetry | 20:20 |
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| dhellmann | core project, right? | 20:20 |
| zehicle_at_dell | sigh | 20:21 |
| ttx | core project. | 20:21 |
| joshuamckenty | there aren't core projects, anymore | 20:21 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we are not making projects core | 20:21 |
| joshuamckenty | just core capabilities | 20:21 |
| * zehicle_at_dell echos joshuamckenty | 20:21 | |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: nor core programs, right ? | 20:21 |
| joshuamckenty | right | 20:21 |
| joshuamckenty | just integrated releases | 20:21 |
| markmc | the TC wanted the Board to allow the Ceilometer project call itself "OpenStack Telemetry" | 20:21 |
| joshuamckenty | there are three specific uses of the trademark | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | can we make sure we're all using the words with the same meantings before we decide we don't need to use the words? | 20:21 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I think that we could consider programs as core if we handle the membership issue | 20:21 |
| joshuamckenty | that we were trying to protect in the bylaws | 20:21 |
| markmc | which, based on our interpretation of the bylaws required board approval | 20:21 |
| joshuamckenty | 1. Use of the mark by the community of developers to refer to the product of their efforts | 20:22 |
| markmc | we don't care whether that means making the project "core" or not | 20:22 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: great idea :) | 20:22 |
| markmc | we just think it should be allowed use that name | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | we don't want core programs, because programs have multiple projects and not all of the projects in a given program are going to be core | 20:22 |
| ttx | zehicle: I think we shouldn't consider programs as core. They reflect how the team self-organize | 20:22 |
| joshuamckenty | 2. Use of the mark of vendors to indicate compliance with some definition of "core" | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | the tests should look at capabilities provided by projects and should not think about programs at all | 20:22 |
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| vishy | joshuamckenty, zehicle_at_dell: that is a cool approach, but on the other hand branding the projects as OpenStack definitely has some value | 20:22 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | dhellmann, that's a big jump | 20:22 |
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| vishy | so perhaps any project that implements some of said capabilites can use OpenStack in its name? | 20:22 |
| joshuamckenty | vishy: I'm just describing what's already been approved by the board | 20:23 |
| zehicle_at_dell | vishy, yes. it has value AND it's the only stick that we really have | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: when we say "program" we do not mean "computer program" we mean "team of developers" | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | so why is that a big jump? | 20:23 |
| zehicle_at_dell | so we need to maintain some goverannce on it | 20:23 |
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| markmc | joshuamckenty, zehicle_at_dell, the creation of programs (i.e. "teams") is purely a technical governance issue | 20:23 |
| joshuamckenty | markmc: not if they use the mark | 20:23 |
| zehicle_at_dell | dhellmann, perhaps we sould say Program (not program) | 20:23 |
| vishy | markmc: but they don't | 20:23 |
| joshuamckenty | if you want to call them StackStack Program <x> | 20:23 |
| markmc | joshuamckenty, we're not asking for programs to use the mark | 20:23 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: ^^ | 20:23 |
| joshuamckenty | then there's no issue | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: I'm not sure case matters. :-) | 20:23 |
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| ttx | zehicle: definitely agree -- that's why programs should stay out of it... since programs are a reflection of our ever-changing team organization, and not of "openstack" capabilities | 20:23 |
| zehicle_at_dell | dhellmann, it's big because you're assuming that integrated = program member | 20:24 |
| vishy | the mark is for projects imo | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: yes, that is a requirement from the TC | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | there has to be a team backing a project for us to integrate it | 20:24 |
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| markmc | joshuamckenty, we've created the telemetry program and then *later* asking the board to allow the ceilometer project to use the OpenStack Telemetry name | 20:24 |
| zehicle_at_dell | vishy, that creates problems because we have to protect all the uses (which means ALL the projects) | 20:24 |
| joshuamckenty | markmc: you've got the order backwards, though | 20:24 |
| vishy | zehicle_at_dell: well that is the whole reason for having rules | 20:25 |
| jbryce | joshuamckenty: what was the 3rd use? | 20:25 |
| joshuamckenty | because the "OpenStack Telemetry" program implies that the board has agreed that telemetry capabilities will be part of core | 20:25 |
| vishy | i'm not saying every project gets one by default | 20:25 |
| joshuamckenty | which it hasn't | 20:25 |
| markmc | joshuamckenty, no I don't | 20:25 |
| zehicle_at_dell | My understanding (no JD degree) is that we have an issue w/ brand protection if every project could eventually use _OpenStack_ | 20:25 |
| vishy | but there has to be a way for a project to be called OpenStack X | 20:25 |
| markmc | joshuamckenty, I've got the order exactly correct :) | 20:25 |
| vishy | if for no other reason then that's the way it works today | 20:25 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we'd have to vet every project name just in case it got inclubated | 20:25 |
| joshuamckenty | vishy: that's not a reason | 20:25 |
| dhellmann | joshuamckenty: it sounds like you think the board should be setting the technical direction, in terms of features, which is not a responsibility I understood the board to have. | 20:25 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: actually it is | 20:25 |
| zehicle_at_dell | vishy, I think we'd get to a point where program membership is an additional gate beyond integrated | 20:26 |
| ttx | zehicle: if the telemetry program was called the doctorwho program, would we be having that discussion ? | 20:26 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: you can't go back and uncall things OpenStack Compute | 20:26 |
| vishy | it is all over the internet | 20:26 |
| joshuamckenty | dhellmann: it is precisely the responsibility vested into it by by the bylaws | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: we can change the names at incubation time if there is a conflict -- that's part of the incubation process, right? | 20:26 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, yes | 20:26 |
| ttx | even if ceilometer still asked to be called OpenStack telemetry ? | 20:26 |
| vishy | zehicle_at_dell: why make it more complicated then the board must approve using OpenStack in the name of the project? | 20:26 |
| joshuamckenty | vishy: true, but that doesn't mean we need a process that allows additional cases | 20:27 |
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| vishy | joshuamckenty: agreed | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | joshuamckenty: that's now how I read 4.1 | 20:27 |
| vishy | but involving programs etc. just makes it more complicated | 20:27 |
| vishy | when it could be simply stating integrated projects do not get automatic access to the trademark | 20:27 |
| zehicle_at_dell | vishy, I don't remember the board ever doing that except the predefined ones in the by-laws | 20:27 |
| joshuamckenty | dhellmann: we can argue over the language if you want, but I can speak to the intent of the drafting committee | 20:27 |
| vishy | it must be approved by the board | 20:27 |
| ttx | programs are and should stay a reflection of how our teams self-organize | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | joshuamckenty: later, then | 20:27 |
| ttx | because we can't mandate how teams self-organize | 20:28 |
| mikal | I see programs as irrelevant to this discussing, they're just internal team structure. Defcore only cares about released software, i.e. projects. | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | mikal: +1 | 20:28 |
| ttx | mikal: agreed | 20:28 |
| joshuamckenty | DefCore cares about use of the mark that's confusing | 20:28 |
| joshuamckenty | and the equation of project to program | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | are the programs using the mark? | 20:28 |
| ttx | mikal: the confusion is because swe used the same names (the functional description) | 20:28 |
| mikal | So can we ban the word "program" from this conversation to reduce confusion? | 20:28 |
| markmc | but programs aren't using the mark | 20:28 |
| zehicle_at_dell | mikal, so how does that match to vishy comment that programs have >0 projects | 20:28 |
| vishy | does anyone else feel like there actually isn't any debate here, and we just need to state what is actually true | 20:28 |
| vishy | that projects can only use the mark if approved by the board | 20:28 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: the programs are NOT using the openstack trademark though | 20:28 |
| vishy | and programs cannot use it | 20:28 |
| mikal | zehicle_at_dell: every program has at least one project | 20:28 |
| markmc | vishy, yes | 20:29 |
| mikal | (That I can recall) | 20:29 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: but just the functional description. | 20:29 |
| joshuamckenty | great | 20:29 |
| vishy | simple problem, simple answer | 20:29 |
| jeblair | mikal: some programs have 0 projects | 20:29 |
| joshuamckenty | well, okay | 20:29 |
| zehicle_at_dell | mikal, can you give me an excample of a program w/ >1 project? | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | mikal: we have discussed some programs that won't have their own project (UX) | 20:29 |
| joshuamckenty | then we just need to make it more clear in community documentation | 20:29 |
| ttx | i.e. "compute program", not "openstack compute program" | 20:29 |
| zehicle_at_dell | jeblair, which ones? | 20:29 |
| mikal | Oh true | 20:29 |
| vishy | zehicle_at_dell: nova, gantt, python-novaclient | 20:29 |
| joshuamckenty | that the existence of a program does not indicate that the projects inside it will become part of openstack | 20:29 |
| markmc | joshuamckenty, pointers to where it's not clear are welcome | 20:29 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: oh, definitely nOT | 20:29 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: correct | 20:29 |
| mikal | zehicle_at_dell: we've given you an example several times: the compute program has nova, gantt and python-novaclient | 20:29 |
| jeblair | oh, it looks like "Release cycle management" did grow a project, but it started without one | 20:30 |
| annegentle | joshuamckenty: by doing what? | 20:30 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: the "release managemnt" program, for example, will NEVER EVER have an openstack name attached to one of its projects | 20:30 |
| vishy | i think we are actually all agreeing we just need to make clear statements about what exists becasue it is confusing | 20:30 |
| jeblair | and we have positively discussed that we would be happy to add a ux program with 0 projects (but the team for that hasn't formed yet) | 20:30 |
| mikal | I think we're on a tangent again | 20:30 |
| joshuamckenty | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Programs | 20:30 |
| mikal | What I am getting from this is that the board wants to be the only one who can assign the openstack amrk to things | 20:31 |
| joshuamckenty | This line is particularly confusing: "The Technical Committee has a mandate to review programs that wish to be included as official OpenStack programs." | 20:31 |
| mikal | So we need to be careful to not call something "OpenStack Foo" until the board has been consulted, yes? | 20:31 |
| joshuamckenty | mikal: there is a specific mandate for the community to use the mark | 20:31 |
| joshuamckenty | but not to refer to componets | 20:31 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: agreed, we need to clarify that | 20:31 |
| markmc | joshuamckenty, sounds accurate to me | 20:31 |
| joshuamckenty | but just the community itself | 20:31 |
| markmc | they're still official programs | 20:31 |
| zehicle_at_dell | so, we have an unending list of programs? | 20:31 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: I agree that page is a bit confusing from a mark perspective | 20:31 |
| markmc | even if we don't use the mark with them | 20:31 |
| joshuamckenty | they're programs of OpenStack, but not "OpenStack programs" | 20:31 |
| joshuamckenty | :) | 20:31 |
| vishy | so lets edit it to clarify | 20:31 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: I'll take that | 20:32 |
| ttx | "official programs of OpenStack" | 20:32 |
| markmc | "official programs of OpenStack" | 20:32 |
| ttx | or even | 20:32 |
| markmc | right :) | 20:32 |
| joshuamckenty | awesome | 20:32 |
| ttx | "TC-recognized prograls of OpenStack" | 20:32 |
| ttx | programs | 20:32 |
| zehicle_at_dell | how did the offiical programs become official? was there a TC vote? | 20:32 |
| vishy | zehicle_at_dell: yes | 20:32 |
| joshuamckenty | Yes | 20:32 |
| markmc | yes | 20:32 |
| joshuamckenty | there was a mailing list process for existing ones to submit, IIRC | 20:32 |
| * ttx edited the wiki | 20:33 | |
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| mikal | So I still don't understand the ask from the board here | 20:33 |
| markmc | joshuamckenty, resolved in under 30 minutes with no need for a f2f :) | 20:33 |
| mikal | Is it just that you want us to stop using the openstack name? | 20:33 |
| markmc | mikal, that programs don't use the mark | 20:34 |
| ttx | mikal: in a confusing way yes | 20:34 |
| joshuamckenty | just stop calling them "OpenStack Telemetry", yes | 20:34 |
| joshuamckenty | it creates confusion | 20:34 |
| mikal | That's it? | 20:34 |
| markmc | but that does bring us back to *projects* using the name | 20:34 |
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| ttx | joshuamckenty: in retrospect, we should have called those programs by the codename | 20:34 |
| ttx | i.e. the nova program | 20:34 |
| annegentle | from an official documentation perspective, then the second change request is for the documentation conventions to stop using OpenStack Telemetry, right? | 20:34 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I think the gap is larger than I thought | 20:34 |
| ttx | and avoid confusion with the trademark altogether | 20:34 |
| markmc | the TC would still like Ceilometer project to be able to use the OpenStack Telemetry name | 20:34 |
| mikal | What if we just always have "team" at the end of program names... "Compute Team", "UX Team", etc etc | 20:34 |
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| markmc | and the TC doesn't mean by that request that Ceilometer should be a required part of OpenStack clouds | 20:35 |
| jeblair | mikal: i like that because it helps us continue to use the generic name which i think has value | 20:35 |
| ttx | mikal: blame mordred for suggesting "program" instead of "team" | 20:35 |
| zehicle_at_dell | what happens if there's another project that wants to use the same program name? | 20:35 |
| joshuamckenty | that way a project that has capabilities in core can be called "OpenStack Compute | 20:35 |
| joshuamckenty | without overlap on the program | 20:35 |
| joshuamckenty | Awesome, can we cover one other defcore issue? | 20:35 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | for example another approach to orchtestration? | 20:35 |
| jeblair | ttx: if we have to use 'nova', ok, but i think it's good that 'compute program' doesn't mean 'just nova'. | 20:35 |
| mikal | markmc: yes, that's my second question from this | 20:35 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: quick yes | 20:35 |
| zehicle_at_dell | would Orchestration has two projects? | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: we would ask them to collaborate with the existing team and possibly create another project | 20:36 |
| mikal | markmc: ceilometer can only be "openstack telemetry" if the board picks a capability it provides to be in the core set? | 20:36 |
| joshuamckenty | markmc: we're trying to have those two things mean the same thing | 20:36 |
| sparkycollier | So would it be fair to say that "The integrated release of OpenStack includes Telemetry in the Havana version" ? | 20:36 |
| ttx | zehicle: if the same team works on it yes | 20:36 |
| markmc | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/55375/2/resolutions/20131106-ceilometer-and-heat-official-names | 20:36 |
| joshuamckenty | wherever possible | 20:36 |
| joshuamckenty | e.g., OpenStack <foo> means that some foo capabilities are part of core | 20:36 |
| joshuamckenty | mikal: yes | 20:36 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: what's the second issue ? | 20:36 |
| joshuamckenty | that's the current theory | 20:36 |
| joshuamckenty | designated sections | 20:36 |
| mikal | So we can never call something "OpenStack X" until after a capability is blessed? | 20:37 |
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| joshuamckenty | we need the PTLs to decide what code sections are designated sections | 20:37 |
| ttx | mikal: the board decides how the trademark is used | 20:37 |
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| jeblair | markmc: has the board taken that up yet? | 20:37 |
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| mikal | In that case, can't we just say to the board "bless this name, this project provides the following capabiities we would like to have considered for the core set"? | 20:37 |
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| markmc | jeblair, no, it's gotten all mixed up in this defcore stuff | 20:37 |
| mikal | ttx: I get that, I'm trying to work out how we interact over it though | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | joshuamckenty: what is "designated sections"? | 20:37 |
| zehicle_at_dell | what does same team mean? if there are two projects, would they be the same team? | 20:37 |
| joshuamckenty | zehicle_at_dell: team == program | 20:38 |
| mikal | zehicle_at_dell: yes. A team can work on more than one project at a time. I thought we'd covered that. | 20:38 |
| joshuamckenty | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/CoreDefinition | 20:38 |
| ttx | zehicle: if they share the same core reviewers, then they are the same team | 20:38 |
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| joshuamckenty | dhellmann: ==^ | 20:38 |
| joshuamckenty | section 4 | 20:38 |
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| joshuamckenty | as a hypothetical example, | 20:38 |
| lifeless | back | 20:38 |
| joshuamckenty | since I'm not supposed to use the term "plugin", | 20:38 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I don't think you're leaving room for parallel efforts | 20:38 |
| lifeless | sorry about that | 20:38 |
| joshuamckenty | nova might make the "conductor" a designated section | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | joshuamckenty: are you seriously asking for line numbers within specific files? | 20:39 |
| zehicle_at_dell | if we're saying team == program because they are commonly managed | 20:39 |
| joshuamckenty | no, module names or some such is probably fine | 20:39 |
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| mikal | joshuamckenty: how does a section differ from a capability? | 20:39 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, I think you're on to another topic altogether, unrelated to DefCore | 20:39 |
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| joshuamckenty | capabilities don't have to be implemented with the same code unless that code is a designated section | 20:40 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, i.e. "how the TC should run its technical meritocracy" | 20:40 |
| joshuamckenty | e.g., neutron plugins | 20:40 |
| mikal | Wait what? | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | joshuamckenty: tying core branding to code organization is going to make a mess when we refactor something | 20:40 |
| joshuamckenty | and floating ip support | 20:40 |
| zehicle_at_dell | markmc, asking questions to resolve word choices | 20:40 |
| mikal | You want us to list the blocks of code that implement floating IP support? | 20:40 |
| joshuamckenty | no | 20:40 |
| joshuamckenty | the reverse | 20:40 |
| vishy | zehicle_at_dell: parallel efforts as part of the integrated release is a poor choice imo, but this is a tangent | 20:40 |
| mikal | You want us to list the blocks of code which don' | 20:40 |
| joshuamckenty | the blocks of code that vendors MUST INCLUDE to use the mark | 20:40 |
| mikal | t implement floating IP support? | 20:40 |
| zehicle_at_dell | but it does seem to me that I should be able to ask questions about it without that push back | 20:40 |
| vishy | mikal: they want a list of modules that must be included to still call the thing e.g. nova | 20:41 |
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| mikal | joshuamckenty: that's a lot more granular than my original expectation | 20:41 |
| jeblair | all of them | 20:41 |
| jgriffith | jeblair: +1 | 20:41 |
| joshuamckenty | jeblair: nope | 20:41 |
| mikal | joshuamckenty: I was expecting "all of nova except the hypervisor drivers" | 20:41 |
| joshuamckenty | because some of them are hypervisor specific | 20:41 |
| vishy | to prevent people from rewriting the whole thing and still calling it OpenStack | 20:41 |
| joshuamckenty | mikal: exactly! | 20:41 |
| joshuamckenty | each project gets to designate | 20:41 |
| mikal | joshuamckenty: no, the hypervisor specific stuff is behind a clear line in the code | 20:41 |
| joshuamckenty | neutron will be less, probably | 20:41 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: makes sense to me | 20:41 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, we're trying to avoid tangents, is all | 20:41 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we left it to the TC to make recommendations about how to handle it | 20:41 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: curious why this is left up to the PTLs | 20:42 |
| jgriffith | joshuamckenty: so "cinder-create, delete, ...." | 20:42 |
| joshuamckenty | glance is likely 100% as well | 20:42 |
| markwash | well | 20:42 |
| zehicle_at_dell | markmc, I don't think we resolved the issues that started this | 20:42 |
| jgriffith | joshuamckenty: literally call out all of the API calls? | 20:42 |
| joshuamckenty | vishy: who would you suggest instead? | 20:42 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: doubtful there are driver backends for glance | 20:42 |
| joshuamckenty | jgriffith: not api calls, code modules | 20:42 |
| zehicle_at_dell | and now we're way off | 20:42 |
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| jgriffith | Because modules doesn't make any sense | 20:42 |
| joshuamckenty | jgriffith: why not? | 20:42 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: tc would be another choice | 20:42 |
| annegentle | vishy: joshuamckenty: this does sound more product manager type questions than tech leads | 20:42 |
| joshuamckenty | cinder has drivers | 20:42 |
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| jeblair | i think this topic is very interesting but probably merits a clear/detailed proposal for us to review | 20:42 |
| vishy | jgriffith: loosely, which part of the code | 20:42 |
| joshuamckenty | drivers probably aren't designated sections | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | joshuamckenty: this list is going to need to be updated for each release, is that going to be OK? | 20:42 |
| joshuamckenty | yup | 20:42 |
| zehicle_at_dell | jeblair, +1 | 20:43 |
| joshuamckenty | we have to rerun defcore every release, too | 20:43 |
| ttx | zehicle: joshuamckenty was apparently satisfied by our changes to the use of the openstack trademark in program names | 20:43 |
| mikal | I am scared of the board somehow being involved in our ability to refactor code | 20:43 |
| jgriffith | vishy: joshuamckenty modules includes things like cinder.volume.utils | 20:43 |
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| jgriffith | rpc modules | 20:43 |
| jgriffith | logging modules | 20:43 |
| ttx | zehicle: which is why we moved on to second issue | 20:43 |
| jgriffith | etc etc | 20:43 |
| joshuamckenty | mikal: that's why we're not in charge of the designated sections | 20:43 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, so we're exiting that part w/o resolution. ok | 20:43 |
| vishy | jgriffith: the idea is (currently) the ptl decides which sections of the code are required to use the mark | 20:43 |
| * dhellmann wonders if this means oslo libraries are going to start being considered as part of core | 20:43 | |
| joshuamckenty | jgriffith: I was using modules in the generic "Code Complete" sense, not the python sense | 20:43 |
| mikal | joshuamckenty: ok, but a code reviewer would still need to block a refactor to seek some form of management approval | 20:43 |
| jeblair | mikal: well, they can't be and won't be so don't worry. :) | 20:43 |
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| joshuamckenty | mikal: why? | 20:44 |
| zehicle_at_dell | missed the #topic modules definition in core | 20:44 |
| jgriffith | vishy: I get it... easy enough | 20:44 |
| joshuamckenty | that management approval is from the PTL | 20:44 |
| ttx | zehicle: resolution was: do not call programs "OpenStack X" anymore | 20:44 |
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| mikal | joshuamckenty: because it might change what is in the defnitiion and what isn't | 20:44 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: that makes sense... i.e. must use the API code, must use the RPC code | 20:44 |
| joshuamckenty | zehicle_at_dell: designated sections | 20:44 |
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| mikal | joshuamckenty: let's say you list all the capabilities of nova in core, _except_ floating IPs | 20:44 |
| vishy | without getting to the level of every python module/file included | 20:44 |
| * zehicle_at_dell corrected | 20:44 | |
| mikal | joshuamckenty: how do we then define what bits of the common nova code aren't for floating IPs? | 20:44 |
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| annegentle | ttx: I'd still like an agreement logged about https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Conventions#Service_and_project_names | 20:44 |
| joshuamckenty | mikal: you don't have to | 20:44 |
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| mikal | joshuamckenty: and what happens when I refactor that code and break the defined list as a side effect | 20:44 |
| ttx | zehicle: I though joshuamckenty was echoing the same concern you were - and so if he was happy with that resolution you were, too | 20:45 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, that does not resolve issue. just side steps naming | 20:45 |
| joshuamckenty | mikal: if you put it in the designated section, that's your business | 20:45 |
| markmc | ok, look | 20:45 |
| joshuamckenty | zehicle_at_dell: the naming issue is separate from the "parallel efforts" issue | 20:45 |
| markmc | if zehicle_at_dell doesn't agree the issue is resolved | 20:45 |
| markmc | let's stop the other thing | 20:45 |
| joshuamckenty | but I don't want to try and deal with parallel efforts over IRC | 20:45 |
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| ttx | zehicle: then I don't get your issue. Expressing it on ML first would have helped explaining it | 20:45 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, re-state how we're "side-stepping naming" ? | 20:45 |
| jeblair | annegentle: only the board-approved projects can use openstack names | 20:46 |
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| * mikal pauses on the designated sections thing to let the naming debate restart | 20:46 | |
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| jeblair | annegentle: so it is premature to call ceilometer "OpenStack Telemetry" | 20:46 |
| ttx | OK, back to first issue | 20:46 |
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| jeblair | annegentle: same for heat | 20:46 |
| joshuamckenty | parallel effort issue is the following: | 20:46 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: are your concerns answered now, or is it just sidesteps ? | 20:46 |
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| * zehicle_at_dell suggests that I review commends based on updated information and discussion and start thread on list | 20:46 | |
| ttx | zehicle: that would help | 20:47 |
| annegentle | jeblair: ttx: do we need a review patch to reverse the resolution in our governance repo? | 20:47 |
| ttx | zehicle: with limited shared context, ML usualluy works better to explain one's point | 20:47 |
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| jeblair | annegentle: the resolution was that we ask the board to consider allowing it; they have not done so yet | 20:47 |
| jeblair | annegentle: we can not decide that ourselves (and we did not try, we only asked) | 20:47 |
| ttx | zehicle: otherwise we'll talk past each other for 15 more minutes | 20:47 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I was trying to get a thread but wanted to get more input before it launched - sorry that wasted some time. I think this discussion will help influence the thread | 20:47 |
| ttx | zehicle: consider it a good bootstrap ;) | 20:48 |
| ttx | so... back to issue #2 ? | 20:48 |
| zehicle_at_dell | +1 | 20:48 |
| joshuamckenty | so was there a suggestion to have the TC own the designated sections instead of the PTLs? | 20:48 |
| markmc | restate #2? | 20:48 |
| ttx | TC vs. PTL to designate critical code sections | 20:48 |
| markmc | ttx, just to be clear | 20:48 |
| vishy | please no thread | 20:48 |
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| jeblair | ttx, markmc: back me up here on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Conventions#Service_and_project_names -- i think it's important because it appears to be an actual use of the mark outside of what we agreed | 20:48 |
| jeblair | and annegentle rightly wants clarity there | 20:49 |
| annegentle | yes please | 20:49 |
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| jbryce | i'm confused on this too | 20:49 |
| annegentle | and in a logged manner so I can point the doc team to it | 20:49 |
| markmc | jeblair, sorry, I agree with what you said - we do not yet know that Ceilometer and Heat cannot yet be called OpenStack Telemetry and OpenStack Orchestration | 20:49 |
| ttx | jeblair: the board is currently changing the rules for trademark usage. So obviously the doc needs to be updated to reflect that, if necessary | 20:49 |
| jbryce | Section 4.1 - "The Core OpenStack Project means the software modules which are part of an integrated release and for which an OpenStack trademark may be used. The other modules which are part of the OpenStack Project, but not the Core OpenStack Project may not be identified using the OpenStack trademark except when distributed with the Core OpenStack Project." | 20:49 |
| lifeless | markmc: *blink* double negative? | 20:49 |
| vishy | ttx, zehicle_at_dell: imo, this issue is resolved, and any further discussion on the ML is just extra beauracracy that wastes everyones time | 20:50 |
| annegentle | ttx: and the stable/havana branch changed? | 20:50 |
| markmc | lifeless, sorry | 20:50 |
| ttx | vishy: if zehicle still has concerns, he can raise a thread | 20:50 |
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| jbryce | ceilometer and heat are "other modules" (second sentence) distributed with the Core OpenStack Project | 20:50 |
| ttx | vishy: don't feel forced to participate to it :) | 20:50 |
| markmc | jeblair, sorry, I agree with what you said - we do not yet know that Ceilometer and Heat may be called OpenStack Telemetry and OpenStack Orchestration | 20:50 |
| annegentle | jbryce: appreciated | 20:50 |
| vishy | ttx: ok I will ignore it then :) | 20:50 |
| zehicle_at_dell | vishy, you can ignore if you'd like. perhaps some 1x1 will be useful | 20:50 |
| markmc | jeblair, I'm using that language because I think you could interpret the bylaws like jbryce and say we could use those names | 20:51 |
| zehicle_at_dell | vishy, can bring you up on DefCore too | 20:51 |
| vishy | zehicle_at_dell: sure no problem there | 20:51 |
| markmc | jeblair, but I'm being cautious - i.e. I don't think there's consensus on the interpretation | 20:51 |
| vishy | zehicle_at_dell: but really there is way to much pointless discussion around these topics. Most of the questions are simple | 20:51 |
| ttx | So. On that second topic. I'd propose the PTLs propose sections and the TC approves them | 20:51 |
| vishy | and we can talk about them forever | 20:52 |
| vishy | ttx: +1 | 20:52 |
| joshuamckenty | vishy: that's an unnecessary ad-hominem attack | 20:52 |
| sparkycollier | I read it as "you can talk about Telemetry in the context of OpenStack because it's part of the integrated release" | 20:52 |
| mikal | ttx: with the understanding that the default proposal is "anything outside the drivers" I'm ok with that | 20:52 |
| joshuamckenty | mikal: the default state for DefCore is 0%, unless we hear otherwise :) | 20:52 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: ? | 20:52 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: we just went through 20 minutes of agreeing and being unwilling to state what the agreement was | 20:53 |
| joshuamckenty | vishy: "You should stop talking about this because it's simple and this discussion is pointless" | 20:53 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: so the TC will take the ball on that section definition thing | 20:53 |
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| mikal | joshuamckenty: I think that's almost exactly backwards for the projects which use the trademark | 20:53 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: if there is disagreement i'm all for discussion | 20:53 |
| joshuamckenty | mikal: how so? | 20:53 |
| vishy | joshuamckenty: but afaict ther is no disagreement | 20:53 |
| vishy | someone just needs to say "this is the agreement" and we can all ratify it | 20:53 |
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| joshuamckenty | vishy: there is clear disagreement on a complex issue. We just agreed on the easy part | 20:53 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: any deadline for proposing initial sets ? | 20:53 |
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| jeblair | ttx: i missed the last board meeting; is this whole process documented somewhere? as the tc do we know clearly what the board is asking us to do? | 20:53 |
| mikal | If you let nova use the openstack mark, for example, then the default assumption should be that 100% of its code is covered by defcore | 20:54 |
| ttx | jeblair: no, it's all new | 20:54 |
| joshuamckenty | mikal: no, 0% | 20:54 |
| mikal | We should then _exclude_ bits we think are ok for vendors to hack on | 20:54 |
| joshuamckenty | well, unknown | 20:54 |
| mikal | joshuamckenty: I get that's what you're saying | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: yeah, I'd like to have a clearer understanding of the form this recommendation should take | 20:54 |
| mikal | joshuamckenty: I'm disagreeing with you | 20:54 |
| jeblair | joshuamckenty: is there something, somewhere i can read about what you're asking us to do other than what you've said in this meeting? | 20:54 |
| joshuamckenty | okay, I'm not defending a position | 20:54 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we're confusing the project using the mark and a commercial business using the mark | 20:54 |
| joshuamckenty | just asking for one | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | because mikal's statement seems like the right sort of level of detail | 20:54 |
| joshuamckenty | jeblair: there's the link I posted earlier | 20:54 |
| joshuamckenty | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/CoreDefinition | 20:54 |
| zehicle_at_dell | but they are related topics | 20:55 |
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| mikal | joshuamckenty: we should be defining areas for vendors to compete in | 20:55 |
| joshuamckenty | YES! That's the point of the designated sections | 20:55 |
| joshuamckenty | some projects will be 100% competitive, some may be 0% | 20:55 |
| mikal | joshuamckenty: yes, but the default should be to say no to vendor patches | 20:55 |
| joshuamckenty | 0% is likely not good for the users, 100% is bad for the developers | 20:55 |
| mikal | joshuamckenty: and then designate sandboxes they can play with | 20:55 |
| sparkycollier | Defcore is about the commercial use AFAIK as stated in teh first sentence of the wiki "The following list represents the "guiding principles" used by the Foundation Board to determine how commercial implementations of OpenStack can be granted use of the trademark" | 20:56 |
| mikal | 10)% is great for developers who understand open source | 20:56 |
| joshuamckenty | 0% makes interop very hard | 20:56 |
| mikal | 100% even | 20:56 |
| mikal | And I'm not sure I care about vendors who want to ship crazy private drivers | 20:56 |
| lifeless | mikal: what about e.g. keystone | 20:56 |
| lifeless | mikal: which started as a replacement project | 20:56 |
| joshuamckenty | sparkycollier: which is why "projects and programs" isn't directly in DefCore's purview | 20:56 |
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| mikal | If the driver isn't good enough to land in our git repos, why should we encourage it? | 20:56 |
| joshuamckenty | but it *is* problematic | 20:56 |
| joshuamckenty | mikal: ask Rackspace | 20:56 |
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| ttx | OK. We'll continue that discussion on openstack-dev | 20:57 |
| mikal | joshuamckenty: pardon? | 20:57 |
| joshuamckenty | Rackspace would lose the use of the mark depending on how the designated sections code goes | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | mikal: I think what joshuamckenty means is that even if the code is in our repo, it may not be required to be used at runtime | 20:57 |
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| vishy | mikal: -1 | 20:57 |
| joshuamckenty | because they don't run many openstack things | 20:57 |
| ttx | #action ttx to raise thread on defining critical sections in projects, TC vs. PTL | 20:57 |
| joshuamckenty | that was true for HP up until relatively recently | 20:57 |
| joshuamckenty | and still true today for Dreamhost cloud b/c of the ceph usage | 20:57 |
| mikal | Sure, and this is what we're trying to fix | 20:58 |
| joshuamckenty | ditto for, I believe, almost every vendor | 20:58 |
| ttx | #action zehicle to raise thread with unaddressed concerns about programs, if any | 20:58 |
| mikal | So let's not build a system which perpetuates the fail | 20:58 |
| joshuamckenty | Nebula and Piston, certainly | 20:58 |
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| joshuamckenty | mikal: be very careful how you define "fail" | 20:58 |
| joshuamckenty | fail for devs, or for users? | 20:58 |
| joshuamckenty | or for vendors? | 20:58 |
| markwash | so we want to make a mark that no one uses? | 20:58 |
| ttx | mikal: we need to wrap up. Josh asked for a position, we'll define it | 20:58 |
| joshuamckenty | thanks | 20:58 |
| annegentle | ttx: did you have an action to edit the OpenStack Program wiki page? | 20:58 |
| mikal | joshuamckenty: for users and devs. I thought the goal here was to encourage interop? | 20:58 |
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| ttx | annegentle: I multiplexed and did it | 20:58 |
| annegentle | ttx: nice | 20:59 |
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| joshuamckenty | mikal: but not at the total expense of the commercial ecosystem | 20:59 |
| joshuamckenty | ttx: and https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Conventions#Service_and_project_names ? | 20:59 |
| * vishy looks forward to the ml discussion on point #2 | 20:59 | |
| annegentle | #action annegentle to edit https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Conventions#Service_and_project_names | 20:59 |
| ttx | Looks like Barbican will be considered next week | 20:59 |
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| joshuamckenty | thanks everyone for the time | 20:59 |
| vishy | thanks for jumping in joshuamckenty zehicle_at_dell | 20:59 |
| ttx | joshuamckenty: you're welcome | 20:59 |
| * zehicle_at_dell thanks everyone! until next time | 20:59 | |
| lifeless | ciao | 21:00 |
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| ttx | #topic Minor governance changes | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Minor governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 21:00 | |
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| ttx | Add a requirement for deprecating duplicated code (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70389/) | 21:00 |
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| ttx | I think that one needs a few more iterations on Gerrit | 21:00 |
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| ttx | I'll approve it once it reaches the approval threshold though, so vote -1 if you want to block it | 21:01 |
| ttx | and... no time for open discussion | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 4 21:01:38 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-02-04-20.02.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-02-04-20.02.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-02-04-20.02.log.html | 21:01 |
| jeblair | ooh, can we have another meeting? | 21:01 |
| ttx | yeah | 21:01 |
| markmc | yippee | 21:02 |
| ttx | dhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, jd__, markwash, jgriffith, russellb, stevebaker, david-lyle, markmcclain, hub_cap: around ? | 21:02 |
| annegentle | jeblair: your wish is granted | 21:02 |
| markwash | o/ | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:02 |
| notmyname | here | 21:02 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 21:02 |
| jd__ | o/ | 21:02 |
| dolphm | o/ | 21:02 |
| jgriffith | o/ | 21:02 |
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| david-lyle | o/ | 21:02 |
| Daisy | o/ | 21:03 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:03 |
| devananda | o/ | 21:03 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 4 21:04:05 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:04 |
| lifeless | o/ but otp too | 21:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:04 | |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:04 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:04 |
| ttx | #topic icehouse-3 progress | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "icehouse-3 progress (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:04 | |
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| ttx | We reviewed this on various 1:1s, progress doesn't look too bad | 21:04 |
| ttx | But you should definitely take advantage of the calm queue to finalize a few blueprints | 21:04 |
| ttx | neutron should be back in the game soon, which will create load | 21:04 |
| hub_cap | howdy | 21:04 |
| ttx | so I'd recommend to review and approve what you can *now* | 21:05 |
| ttx | gate 9-deep at 2100 UTC, that's been a long time | 21:05 |
| ttx | so take advantage of it | 21:05 |
| ttx | #topic icehouse velocity compared to previous cycles | 21:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "icehouse velocity compared to previous cycles (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:06 | |
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| ttx | I looked into icehouse-2's velocity | 21:06 |
| ttx | It appears that icehouse-2 was not that catastrophic, if you compare it with last year's grizzly-2 | 21:06 |
| ttx | Keystone, Glance and Horizon in particular did a lot better this year | 21:06 |
| ttx | So I think we just need to acknowledge that the second milestone in October-April cycles is not that busy | 21:06 |
| ttx | learn from history, which repeats itself | 21:06 |
| dolphm | define catastrophic? | 21:06 |
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| ttx | dolphm: some were thinking we did less than 33% of what we expected | 21:07 |
| ttx | based on blueprint targets | 21:07 |
| ttx | We usually catch up that little 2nd milestone with a very busy 3rd milestone though, compared to April-October cycles | 21:08 |
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| ttx | So we'll see how it goes | 21:08 |
| jeblair | oy | 21:08 |
| ttx | comments on that ? | 21:08 |
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| dolphm | "based on blueprint targets" is basing a statement on a LOT of variables :) | 21:08 |
| jeblair | so i think that's what's driving sdague's proposal to slim the gate down; hopefully we'll move that along soon | 21:08 |
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| *** mrda_away is now known as mrda | 21:09 | |
| jeblair | (also, zuul and nodepool scaling improvements are in progress), hopefully should help with i3 gate load | 21:09 |
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| ttx | dolphm: right. But it created a feeling. Which we had to address before it became a rumor | 21:09 |
| jeblair | ttx: because after rumor is truth... | 21:09 |
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| ttx | especially when picked up by lazy journalists | 21:10 |
| ttx | anything else on that topic ? | 21:10 |
| annegentle | ttx: snort | 21:10 |
| ttx | jeblair: btw there are a bunch of tripleo things stuck in the queue pipe, I suppose that's a known issue ? | 21:10 |
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| jeblair | ttx: yes, tripleo cloud is offline, tripleo ops are working on it | 21:11 |
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| jeblair | lifeless: is on it | 21:11 |
| ttx | ack | 21:11 |
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| ttx | #topic log translation plan (dhellmann) | 21:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "log translation plan (dhellmann) (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:12 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: around? | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | here | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | Log translations came up on the mailing list recently | 21:12 |
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| ttx | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oslo/+spec/log-messages-translation-domain | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-January/025572.html | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | I will be writing all of this up on the LoggingStandards wiki page, but wanted to cover it briefly here to make sure all of the PTLs understand the approach we’ve settled on so there are no surprises. | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | We have requests to separate the log message translations from other translations. | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | We’ve recently added the ability to log in multiple languages as part of this. | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | Next, we are going to add separate translation marker functions similar to _() with names like _LE and _LW to allow us to extract the messages into different catalogs. | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | Having separate catalogs will let each translation team prioritize which, if any, log messages they translate for their operators. | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | We are going to skip debug messages, for this phase of the project, and focus only on messages at INFO or higher levels. | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | When we’re ready, reviewers should ensure that log messages are translated using the function for the level associated with the log output (info, warning, etc.). | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | The _() marker should only be used for end-user messages from exceptions and API calls. | 21:12 |
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| dhellmann | issues or questions? | 21:13 |
| hub_cap | lol | 21:13 |
| markwash | _LE => error, _LW -> warn ? | 21:13 |
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| ttx | processing... | 21:13 |
| dhellmann | markwash: yes | 21:13 |
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| dhellmann | unfortunately, we can't just pick up messages from the LOG.foo() calls directly, so we have to have marker functions for them | 21:14 |
| ttx | dhellmann: Like this plan. Been talking about it for some time now | 21:14 |
| bknudson | _() is for debug? | 21:14 |
| dhellmann | _() is for user facing messages | 21:14 |
| dhellmann | we aren't translating debug messages | 21:14 |
| markwash | "" is for debug ;-) | 21:14 |
| dhellmann | right | 21:14 |
| ttx | it's the only way to get decent i18n coverage anyway | 21:14 |
| devananda | ++ | 21:14 |
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| bknudson | so if we've got _() on debug message, remove it? | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | ttx: yeah, I think we *finally* have agreement on an approach | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: yes, eventually | 21:15 |
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| Daisy | Yes. Translators want t focus on high priority messages to translate. | 21:15 |
| devananda | dhellmann: is this written up somewhere yet? | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: once all of the tools are in place, I'll announce all of this on the dev mailing list and encourage people to make the updates | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | it will be up to the individual projects to decide how they do that, of course | 21:15 |
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| devananda | ^ answerd my question, thanks | 21:15 |
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| dhellmann | at this point I'm mostly looking for +0 or -2 votes :-) | 21:16 |
| hub_cap | works for me (/me looks into actually getting the i18n set up in trove) | 21:16 |
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| bknudson | choosing _() for user facing seems like it will wind up catching a lot of debug unless we go through and remove _() from all debug | 21:16 |
| ttx | all seem in agreement | 21:16 |
| bknudson | since that's what they are now | 21:16 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: yes, all messages are marked like that now | 21:16 |
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| dhellmann | I recommend updating all messages in a given file to the right translation marker at the same time, but not necessarily doing it for all files in a projects in one patch because of merge conflicts | 21:17 |
| Daisy | messages marked with _() was around 7000+ in Havana. | 21:17 |
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| jd__ | so we would have to change debug from _() to "" ? | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | Daisy: wow | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | jd__: right | 21:17 |
| notmyname | translating log messages seems weird to me. but I'm a native English speaker, too, so I feel I'm probably biased | 21:17 |
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| dhellmann | notmyname: yeah, this is a specific request we've had from some operators | 21:18 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: I don't like that, can't we teach log to ignore _() if the level is debug? | 21:18 |
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| dhellmann | the previous approach of using _() for everything overwhelmed translators for languages where the operators didn't care about this | 21:18 |
| kgriffs | my only reservation is it may make it harder for an operator to google and find help | 21:18 |
| kgriffs | but, I think that is solvable by writing error codes | 21:18 |
| ttx | ok, next topic ? | 21:18 |
| dhellmann | kgriffs: the logs can actually output in multiple languages at the same time | 21:18 |
| kgriffs | dhellmann: gtk! | 21:18 |
| dhellmann | ttx: that's all I had | 21:18 |
| markwash | kgriffs: I think its optional to decide to run with logs in a given locale, no? | 21:19 |
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| dhellmann | markwash: also true | 21:19 |
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| notmyname | kgriffs: ya, that was my concern too | 21:19 |
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| notmyname | dhellmann: so log in different languages for twice the fun? | 21:19 |
| notmyname | and by fun I mean log volume | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: sure, it's a balance between knowing exactly what the error means and being able to deal with it, and having to look everything up because you don't read english | 21:19 |
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| dhellmann | notmyname: and pick as many languages as you like, to multiply the fun ;-) | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I think we can move on | 21:20 |
| ttx | #topic discuss the move to unversioned endpoints in the service catalog (annegentle/dolphm) | 21:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "discuss the move to unversioned endpoints in the service catalog (annegentle/dolphm) (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:21 | |
| jd__ | dhellmann: I had a question if you missed it but that can wait :) | 21:21 |
| dolphm | o/ | 21:21 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-February/026079.html | 21:21 |
| annegentle | here | 21:21 |
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| ttx | so there seem to be a need for discussion here | 21:21 |
| dolphm | there's also a second thread about this on list; one sec | 21:21 |
| dhellmann | jd__: sorry, I did, I'll come back to it during open discussion | 21:21 |
| dolphm | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-February/026177.html | 21:21 |
| dolphm | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-February/026177.html | 21:22 |
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| dolphm | this second thread is quite long and just picked up momentum today | 21:23 |
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| dolphm | our goal for keystone is to allow our client to support unversioned auth_url's, and authenticate according to the available API (and that's done as of the current release) | 21:23 |
| dolphm | e.g. http://paste.openstack.org/raw/62480/ | 21:23 |
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| dolphm | we also want to move from /v2.0/ for identity endpoints in the service catalog, directly to an unversioned endpoint | 21:24 |
| dolphm | which has brought up a few questions | 21:24 |
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| dolphm | one of the questions brought up in the second thread was whether or not the community had any interest in supporting older clients | 21:25 |
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| dolphm | if, for example, keystone immediately dropped the versioned endpoint in the service catalog, we'd break clients from the pre-havana timeframe -- is that a problem? | 21:26 |
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| ttx | dolphm: well, we said in the past that you should always be running the latest client | 21:26 |
| ttx | a.k.a. we don't maintain stable branch of clients | 21:27 |
| markmc | ttx, could be a different language | 21:27 |
| ttx | or "the mordred rule" | 21:27 |
| markmc | my instinct is that yes, it's an issue | 21:27 |
| markmc | without a lengthy deprecation period | 21:27 |
| dolphm | we've been operating under the assumption that we want to support the last year or so of client releases as much as possible, which has been challenging/frustrating | 21:27 |
| ttx | but i agree that we should avoid breaking if we can | 21:28 |
| annegentle | dolphm: I think you'd need at least a year of deprecation warnings | 21:28 |
| markmc | it's not just client releases - think about raw usage of the API, without client libraries published by us | 21:28 |
| kgriffs | yes, SDK authors everywhere would be up in arms | 21:28 |
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| dolphm | markmc: so that brings up another subtlety... | 21:28 |
| annegentle | dolphm: but so much of the onus of the warnings would be on the deployers themselves? | 21:28 |
| dolphm | this isn't an API change, it's a default configuration / documentation change that has impact on clients | 21:29 |
| markwash | it seems a shame that the goal of excellence (providing integrated CI for stable supported stuff) gets in the way of the goal of good (providing a fix version like keystoneclient 0.X.1 as a fix for 0.X.0) | 21:29 |
| dolphm | the API stays the same, it's just the value being returned by the API is new, and requires a new client respond to it correctly | 21:29 |
| markmc | dolphm, then perhaps recommend that ops change from the default if they themselves don't care about older clients? | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | dolphm: what if instead of http://host/ returning the list of versions, we add "/versions" to the published endpoint and if that URL is under a version it only returns itself? | 21:30 |
| markmc | dolphm, and warn them we're going to change the default ourselves in N releases ? | 21:30 |
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| annegentle | markmc: that's my thinking too, we change the install guide to indicate how to set up your catalog differently | 21:30 |
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| annegentle | markmc: then the providers are responsible for communicating endpoint changes (which still sounds awful) | 21:30 |
| dolphm | markmc: what do we do in devstack in the mean time? the new recommended value? or continue with the pending-deprecation value? | 21:30 |
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| markmc | annegentle, yeah | 21:31 |
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| annegentle | I think you have to communicate pending deprecation for a while, year at least (2 releases I really mean) | 21:32 |
| ttx | markmc: oh, so that would amount to stable API change ? Yeah. Bad. | 21:32 |
| markmc | dolphm, yeah, I don't know - sorry, I'm just blindly saying "this does sound like the kind of breaking change we don't want" | 21:32 |
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| markmc | dolphm, without understanding the issue in full detail | 21:32 |
| annegentle | markmc: dolphm: it still seems tied into changing Identity v3 API, right? | 21:32 |
| markmc | dolphm, changing the default in devstack may be fine | 21:33 |
| dolphm | it is... so what i don't want to do is publish the /v3/ endpoint in the catalog as well, which is just confusing and sets a terrible precedent for other projects | 21:33 |
| annegentle | dolphm: and I don't yet understand if the python-keystoneclient supports Identity v3 API? | 21:33 |
| ttx | dolphm: sounds like this thread could see some more aging | 21:34 |
| ttx | it's not ready to be drunk yet | 21:34 |
| dolphm | annegentle: the client library fully support the v3 API, however v3 is not exposed at all to the CLI | 21:34 |
| dolphm | ttx: i'm in the same boat, i'm actually not caught up on the second thread yet | 21:34 |
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| annegentle | dolphm: ok that's useful | 21:34 |
| dolphm | but happy to warm everyone up to the topic :) | 21:34 |
| ttx | ok, let's continue discussion on that thread, because without more context it's difficult to say more than "change is bad" | 21:35 |
| dolphm | annegentle: the goal is to transfer responsibility for CLI exposure to python-openstackclient | 21:35 |
| annegentle | ttx: dolphm: this thread also matters for projects like heat that want to go completely to Identity v3 | 21:35 |
| dolphm | annegentle: ++ | 21:35 |
| annegentle | so I'm good with percolation for a while | 21:35 |
| dolphm | ttx: bring it up again in a week or two? | 21:35 |
| ttx | dolphm: sure | 21:35 |
| ttx | #topic discuss Glance scope expansion (markwash) | 21:36 |
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| markwash | o/ | 21:36 |
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| ttx | markwash: want to introduce the subject ? | 21:36 |
| markwash | sure | 21:36 |
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| markwash | we're looking at adding on to the v2 api to make glance a suitable place to catalog other types of resources | 21:36 |
| markwash | things like whole instance specifications (in terms of block device mapping, etc), heat templates, murano packages, what-have-you | 21:37 |
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| markwash | the idea is sort of, if an openstack service uses a certain artifact as a starting point for users, it would be nice to have it in a catalog like images | 21:37 |
| markwash | and track dependencies | 21:37 |
| markwash | anyway, this could be seen as scope expansion | 21:38 |
| markwash | in my view, its more of refining the original scope | 21:38 |
| markmc | "launchable resources"? | 21:38 |
| markwash | so I wanted to bring it up with other folks to see if the idea initially makes sense to you | 21:38 |
| markwash | markmc: something like that | 21:38 |
| david-lyle | markwash: and then just filter by type in the API call? | 21:39 |
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| markwash | yeah something along those lines | 21:39 |
| markwash | david-lyle: ^^ | 21:39 |
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| hub_cap | so do u see Trove's heat templates it uses to generate clusters as falling under that | 21:39 |
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| markwash | we don't have an established api spec yet | 21:39 |
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| kgriffs | markwash: what is an example of something that would NOT be appropriate to store in Glance under this project scope refinement? | 21:40 |
| devananda | markwash: would you see that catalog containing references to only launchable things, or also buildable things (eg, diskimage-builder elements), or components of things (eg docker) ? | 21:40 |
| ttx | catalog, index... | 21:40 |
| hub_cap | i think its valid, we are currently storing a ton of stuff in /etc | 21:40 |
| hub_cap | kgriffs: ice cream | 21:40 |
| kgriffs | w00t | 21:40 |
| markwash | hub_cap: hmm, I might have to get back to you on that one, it depends sometimes on who the consumer of the resource is | 21:40 |
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| ttx | markwash: I certainly prefer to see those in Glance than in separate projects | 21:40 |
| david-lyle | +1 | 21:41 |
| markmc | markwash, have you heard any concerns or disagreements about the idea from others that you could summarize? | 21:41 |
| annegentle | markwash: I'm with ttx in collecting | 21:41 |
| markwash | kgriffs: well, for example, keypairs probably wouldn't | 21:41 |
| markwash | maybe that's not a great example | 21:41 |
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| kgriffs | I guess my point is, it may be helpful to specify some things that are out of scope to help avoid this getting out of hand. | 21:41 |
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| hub_cap | yea and how is this diff from say, config aas? | 21:41 |
| annegentle | markwash: and from a docs standpoint it'll be a bit of a tough transition to 'splain what all can be stored in a glance catalog | 21:42 |
| kgriffs | otherwise, people might start storing ice cream, pop-tarts, and all kinds of goodies in there. :p | 21:42 |
| hub_cap | kgriffs: ice cream is not allowed :) | 21:42 |
| * kgriffs sad panda | 21:42 | |
| markwash | kgriffs: lol well they'd have to be somehow openstack affiliated pop-tarts :-) | 21:42 |
| markwash | kgriffs: but your point is taken | 21:42 |
| kgriffs | cool beans | 21:42 |
| markwash | scrolling back | 21:43 |
| dhellmann | some of these things could also be thought of as belonging in an object store, though having a catalog query api on front is definitely nice -- that might be another area where you could talk about differences | 21:43 |
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| markwash | devananda: I'll have to think a bit more about buildable things. . that sounds like it might be more of a workflow | 21:43 |
| markwash | markmc: no big concerns yet but we've been in a bit of a silo | 21:44 |
| markwash | but I think making the class of artifacts clear is an obvious concern | 21:44 |
| ttx | markwash: next step: ML thread, then you can propose a mission statement for the TC | 21:44 |
| ttx | long overdue anyway | 21:44 |
| markwash | annegentle: good point | 21:44 |
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| markwash | okay, thanks for the feedback folks | 21:45 |
| markmc | ttx, I'd suggest a mission statement for the current scope | 21:45 |
| hub_cap | markwash: do u think that this could get into a config aas system ? wasnt something recently propsed? | 21:45 |
| markwash | sorry if I missed some questions | 21:45 |
| hub_cap | u can answer tha toffline | 21:45 |
| hub_cap | *that | 21:45 |
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| markmc | and then, later, when the details of the proposal for a new API is fleshed out ... | 21:45 |
| ttx | markmc: as a first step ? | 21:45 |
| hub_cap | im channeling ttx's keyboard today | 21:45 |
| markwash | hub_cap: I'm not really familiar with config aas | 21:45 |
| markmc | revisit expanding the scope in the mission | 21:45 |
| markwash | hub_cap: maybe we can discuss over sours | 21:45 |
| ttx | hub_cap: I switched mine with yours | 21:46 |
| markmc | i.e. don't lead scope expansion simply with a mission statement tweak | 21:46 |
| hub_cap | lol ttx :) | 21:46 |
| ttx | hub_cap: works a lot better. | 21:46 |
| hub_cap | markwash: first sour sunday in berkeley is at the start of beer wk. i expect to see u there | 21:46 |
| ttx | markwash: maybe start with the current mission statement, like markmc said | 21:46 |
| markwash | well, in a way you could see this idea coming out of the question "what is our mission exactly?" | 21:47 |
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| ttx | markwash: so far I'd say that was serving disk images | 21:47 |
| markwash | well | 21:47 |
| markwash | we don't serve them, we prefer you download them directly | 21:47 |
| markwash | and they're often not jsut disk images | 21:47 |
| markwash | so yeah | 21:47 |
| markwash | :-) | 21:47 |
| markwash | considering container format can be ovf etc | 21:48 |
| ttx | or registry | 21:48 |
| ttx | feel free to prepare the terrain | 21:48 |
| markwash | sounds good | 21:48 |
| ttx | #topic Red Flag District / Blocked blueprints | 21:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Red Flag District / Blocked blueprints (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:48 | |
| ttx | heat/x-auth-trust (Low, shardy, icehouse-3) depends on keystone/trusts-chained-delegation (Undefined, No assignee, No milestone) | 21:48 |
| ttx | do we have shardy, zaneb or stevebaker ? | 21:49 |
| dolphm | both of these are assigned to shardy -- and i believe i've seen progress on the keystone side? | 21:49 |
| dolphm | there's nothing linked in the review though | 21:49 |
| dolphm | in the bp* | 21:49 |
| ttx | dolphm: question was about the lack of targeting on the keystone one | 21:49 |
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| annegentle | dolphm: yeah that keystone bp is without work on it so far I think? | 21:50 |
| ttx | dolphm: you could consider making it low/icehouse-3 ? | 21:50 |
| * ttx digs for reviews | 21:50 | |
| dolphm | ttx: happily, but i'd like to follow up with shardy :) | 21:50 |
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| ttx | hah | 21:52 |
| zaneb | sorry :( | 21:52 |
| dolphm | ah, the specification was proposed, but not the implementation | 21:52 |
| zaneb | shardy is not around atm | 21:52 |
| zaneb | but this is not a bp I have heard much about | 21:52 |
| zaneb | so we can probably defer | 21:52 |
| zaneb | I don't think we'd consider it a blocker | 21:53 |
| ttx | dolphm/zaneb: ok. If it comes back, make sure you sync first | 21:53 |
| dolphm | the keystone bp was started in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57481/ | 21:53 |
| mordred | o/ | 21:53 |
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| ttx | dolphm: same thing ? | 21:53 |
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| dolphm | ttx: yes; it's proposing the API mechanism for this feature | 21:54 |
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| dolphm | i'll follow up with Matthieu Huin as well | 21:54 |
| dolphm | (for some reason i thought the keystone bp was assigned to shardy; it's not assigned at all) | 21:55 |
| ttx | zaneb: move it off i3 for the moment, and maybe sync with shardy when you have a chance | 21:55 |
| zaneb | ttx: ok, will do | 21:55 |
| ttx | Any other inter-project blocked work that this meeting could help unblock ? | 21:55 |
| dolphm | zaneb: actually it looks like this has merged against a wishlist bug: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57481/ | 21:55 |
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| zaneb | dolphm: ok, I just bumped the bp to next and I will add it to the project meeting agenda for tomorrow | 21:56 |
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| ttx | ack, please unconfuse soon thx | 21:56 |
| ttx | #topic Incubated projects | 21:56 |
| markmcclain | ttx: just wanted to update that the nova team has patch in the merge gate which will unblock neutron | 21:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Incubated projects (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:56 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:56 |
| dolphm | zaneb: i've marked the keystone bp as Implemented, even though it's sort of obsolete! | 21:57 |
| ttx | markmcclain: great news ! | 21:57 |
| zaneb | lol, OK :D | 21:57 |
| dhellmann | markmcclain: \o/ | 21:57 |
| SergeyLukjanov | savanna is going to setup async gating - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/68066/ | 21:57 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, https://launchpad.net/savanna/+milestone/icehouse-3 | 21:58 |
| ttx | looks good to me | 21:58 |
| devananda | o/ | 21:58 |
| * ttx busily converts "unknown" to "not started" | 21:58 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, will do | 21:59 |
| devananda | as of a few hours ago, our gate is finally unblocked :-D | 21:59 |
| ttx | done | 21:59 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, thx | 21:59 |
| ttx | devananda: cool | 21:59 |
| devananda | I've also proposed adding some more -core so we can increase the rate of merges | 21:59 |
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| devananda | i3 is very aggressive for us ... hopefully that will help | 22:00 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)" | 22:00 | |
| ttx | anything else in that last minute ? | 22:00 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | not from my side | 22:00 |
| ttx | ok then | 22:01 |
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| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 4 22:01:04 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-02-04-21.04.html | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-02-04-21.04.txt | 22:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-02-04-21.04.log.html | 22:01 |
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