Thursday, 2014-03-27

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enikanorov__#startmeeting neutron lbaas14:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 27 14:00:19 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is enikanorov__. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_lbaas'14:00
enikanorov__agenda for the meeting:14:00
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enikanorov__we've got two pages created recently: glossary and requirements14:01
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enikanorov__i'd like to start with any questions you may have for these pages14:01
enikanorov__#topic LBaaS Glossary14:01
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enikanorov__any questions on the glossary?14:02
enikanorov__seems to be none14:03
rm_workI still don't like the way VIP is defined for this project (not a problem with the glossary necessarily?)14:03
rm_workIs this not the time for that? :)14:03
enikanorov__rm_work: what is your concerns, could you remind?14:03
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sballeI like the glossary. It makes things a little clearer14:03
rm_workThere is a general definition of VIP as "Virtual IP" which is… not the definition here14:03
rm_workI know there were concerns regarding backwards compatibility14:04
enikanorov__ok, the definition in the glossary states:14:04
enikanorov__Object that represents an endpoint of load balancing device that has IP address.14:04
enikanorov__In existing model it also has tcp port, protocol, session persistence setting. Vip is plugged into a subnet, so as an object, it has subnet attribute.14:04
sbalukoffTrue: Glossary lists only the current meaning of "VIP" in the Neutron LBaaS model--  not what it will mean should one of the proposed object models get chosen.14:04
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enikanorov__is there something particular that you would like to change?14:05
sbalukoffWell, if we adopt object models 2 or 3 in the proposal, the meaning of VIP changes, correct?14:05
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rm_workWell, it mentions "in the existing model", I am wondering if that is the place to open discussion of what it should mean going forward14:05
rm_workor not14:05
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rm_workif not, ignore me and move on, we can discuss it later :) just want to be on record14:06
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enikanorov__ok, i see. probably terms need their context, thus 'in current model'14:06
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markmcclainyeah I think it is important that the glossary not be a rigid definition of terms.  If we're going to make changes to the API then it is likely we will need to make deliberate changes to how some items are described14:06
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enikanorov__markmcclain: good to have you here!14:07
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enikanorov__ok, lets move on to the requirements14:07
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enikanorov__any questions/suggestions on requirements?14:09
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sbalukoffYes: How specific do we want to be under "operator requirements"14:10
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sbalukoffAnd it'd be nice if someone could fill out a "use case" so we get an idea of the template we should be using for those. ;)14:10
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enikanorov__sbalukoff: i think the first item is about ability to add appliances dynamically14:11
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sbalukoff"User requirements" looks pretty complete to me. I can't think of anything else to add there.14:11
enikanorov__and that's quite clear requirement14:11
markmcclainI think this is a good start, but am concerned the requirements seem to imply physical boxes or appliances14:11
enikanorov__on other operator reqs... we're still too far14:11
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enikanorov__markmcclain: it's better to say backends, but yes, reqs imply that14:12
sballeI am not sure what is meant by "he load balancer shall have the ability to monitor the health of nodes and automatically remove/add them from/in rotation. " under Health Check monitoring14:12
sbalukoffmarkmcclain: Which ones?14:12
markmcclainno not backends but functions14:12
sballeAre we talking about the user' VM?14:12
markmcclain"A _user_ should be able to configure multiple tcp endpoints (Vips) for single IP address that point to the same pool of nodes"14:12
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jorgemsballe: The health monitor requirement is there so that bad backends/nodes can automatically be removed from serving traffic14:13
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markmcclainit seems that load balancer and user on conflated14:13
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sbalukoffmarkmcclain: I think that's so people can have http and https on the same IP. DNS limitations are going to dictate that in many cases.14:13
jorgemsbadia: example: i have 5 web servers being load balanced. 1 dies for some reason. the lb should not serve traffic to it14:13
jorgemsballe: sorry that was meant for you14:14
sballeI understand the requirement. I am just tryign to figure out what the use cases was. By node you mean the tenant's VM/nodes.14:14
markmcclainthe requirements should focus on how the API should change to enable the user to take actions14:14
enikanorov__sbalukoff: yes. and i think markmcclain is saying that it's per implementation whether same ip different port is on the same loadbalancer or not14:14
german__sballe, jorgem: the add requirement seems excessive (indicating a spare pool of nodes)14:14
sballejorgem, No problem. I agree with the requirements. I just wanted to make sure I 100% undertood what it says.14:14
markmcclainI'm not actually arguing the requirement14:14
markmcclainI'm saying the requirements should be stated from user or operator perspective14:15
markmcclainnot that of the virtualized appliance14:15
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enikanorov__in fact that consideration greatly affect or object model discussion14:15
rm_workgerman__: I think it just means "one of the nodes that was already taken offline, if it comes back online"14:15
rm_workgerman__: not that there would be additional pools of nodes14:15
jorgemsballe: I can modify it. Requirements should be very clear so I'll try to update it14:15
sbalukoffOh! Ok, I see.14:15
rm_workso "remove, and add back"14:15
german__yep, that sounds good14:16
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sballegerman__, I agree when I read it I thought we were talking about a pool of standby nodes...14:16
enikanorov__ok, anything else on requirements?14:16
rm_workhonestly, "remove" and "add" may be the wrong terms there14:16
rm_work"disable traffic flow" and "restore traffic flow" are more accurate14:16
sbalukoffmarkmcclain: Just to I understand your concern: You'd like to see these requirements rephrased from a user's or operator's perspective.14:16
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sballerm_work, agreed14:16
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markmcclainsbalukoff: yes14:17
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jorgemrm_work: that works for me14:17
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sbalukoffNot necessarily that the underlying implementation be considered, per se.14:17
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markmcclainit also makes it easier to use them to evaluate the API14:17
sbalukoff(in the stated requirement itself.)14:17
jorgemrm_work: so you want to update the requirement?14:17
rm_workjorgem: doing it now14:17
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enikanorov__#action rephrase requirements so they are stated from user perspective14:18
sballeDo we have a requirement to monitor the LB themselves?14:18
sballeI do not see that anywhere14:18
sbalukoffsballe: Not yet. That should probably go under 'operator requirements'14:19
sbalukoff(I'm assuming by 'LB' you mean 'appliance' as stated in the glossary)14:19
jorgemsbalukoff:  +114:19
enikanorov__lb - any backend, not necessarily an appliance14:19
german__we could lump it under diagnostic -- but making it explicit might be better14:19
enikanorov__there is some work been done on that by obondarev14:20
sbalukoffenikanorov__: Ah yes, backend.14:20
sbalukoffSorry, I'll try to use our defined terms, going forward. :)14:20
enikanorov__ok, lets move on to the object model discussion14:20
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enikanorov__so previously most of us tend to prefer approach which introduced loadbalancer object14:21
enikanorov__and markmcclain had objections to that idea14:21
enikanorov__markmcclain: could you please go over them again14:21
sbalukoffCorrect! And we want to make sure those objections are understood.14:22
enikanorov__right. so i feel those are connected to that API perspective approach14:22
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markmcclainthe are connected to the aPI14:22
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enikanorov__but I'm still not sure I understood those14:22
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bloganhello everyone14:23
markmcclainthe API should be reflective of what a tenants wants to do14:23
markmcclainand not of how the backend implements it14:23
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enikanorov__markmcclain: yes. one of such tasks is to be able to provide another VIP on the same IP address14:23
enikanorov__the question is14:23
jorgemmarkmcclain: agreed14:23
enikanorov__how tenant can express this intent via the API14:23
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markmcclainenikanorov__: the intent the express is the functions they want on their network14:24
enikanorov__agree. so I want http and https balancing on 1 ip address14:25
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enikanorov__what kind of API  calls will allow me to do that?14:25
markmcclainenikanorov__: that is what needs to be designed14:25
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enikanorov__well, it is already designed, and we have several proposals already14:26
jorgemmarkmcclain: So how does introducing the load balancer object not allow that?14:26
enikanorov__one is with loadbalancer14:26
markmcclainjorgem: not really14:26
enikanorov__jorgem: i think the question is for me14:26
enikanorov__it allows that by keeping neutron port for the loadbalancer configuration14:26
enikanorov__so creating another vip for the configuration could share the port14:27
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enikanorov__the details about the port are not exposed to the user though14:27
markmcclainenikanorov__: you're thinking too low level right now14:28
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rm_workpossibly we need all of: Loadbalancer, Listener, Vip14:28
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enikanorov__i'm thinking on API level. right now there is no way of specifying such method through API14:28
enikanorov__and one of the ways is logical grouping at API level14:28
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rm_workLoadbalancer has a Vip, and: POST /api/loadbalancer/<lbid>/listener { port: 443, https, etc }14:29
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rm_workmultiple listeners per Loadbalancer object14:29
markmcclainenikanorov__: the reason we cannot currently specify something is because current API is problematic14:29
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rm_work(that's what I would be thinking if i were a customer)14:29
markmcclainI think we need to decide what the ideal version of the API should look like and work from there14:29
markmcclainrm_work: but what does the lb object provide?14:30
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enikanorov__the ideal version of API in my opinion, is when users accesses lbaas api as if they would access real LB14:30
jorgemmarkmcclain: I agree. The API could be made more user firendly14:31
rm_workLB object is a container for: Vip(1), Listeners(n) and some other stuff14:31
enikanorov__so that's not only an API, but also a user expectation. users works with loadbalancer, which has vips, pools, etc14:31
enikanorov__that's how i see what user wants14:31
markmcclainenikanorov__: we're virtualizing the functions not the appliances14:31
bloganyes so a user expects to get a load balancer object when they use load balancing as a service14:31
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sballeblogan, +114:32
markmcclainI think a user only expects because that is was we constructed in the first iteration14:32
tvardemanblogan: +114:32
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edhalla tautology14:32
ajoproject stats for tautology, 90 days14:32
enikanorov__i think lbaas is not to widely used to create usr expectations14:33
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enikanorov__existing lbaas API is fine - but for simplistic configurations only14:33
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blogani mean neutron is networking as a service and users definitely expect to create networks14:33
markmcclainenikanorov__: the feedback I get from folks is they find the current API confusing14:34
sbalukoffmarkmcclain: Other 'aaS' services use a virtual representation of appliances, too. For example, neutron (ie. "network as a service") has concept of a 'router', and this doesn't correspond to anything physical per se (though it can).14:34
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enikanorov__it both allows fine-grained control over the objects plus more 'user-friendly' APIs on top of that, like Heat have14:34
sbalukoffmarkmcclain: I find current API confusing as well because there's no "load balancer" in our LBaaS. :)14:34
enikanorov__markmcclain: agree it's confusing, but if we fix that, that would not be a completely different API14:35
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markmcclainsbalukoff: the similar argument could be made about the router too14:35
sballemarkmcclain, I second sbalukoff14:35
rm_workdo we want people using LBaaS API, or using Heat? because it seems like basically anything I want to do with a LB keeps being moved up to the Heat layer :/14:35
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german__both :-)14:36
jorgemsince its not part of core yet wouldn't now be the best time to change it? I understand there is a backwards compatibility concern but I would buy that if it were in core14:36
enikanorov__rm_work: i think it's a bit another discussion14:36
rm_workenikanorov__: ok14:36
jorgemenikanorov: yeah…much larger scope14:36
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sballerm_work, I wish we could integrate heat into LBaaS but still use LBaaS API to trigger LBaaS functiobality via heat. I believe other services are doing this14:36
markmcclainjorgem: now is the time to alter the aPI14:36
enikanorov__that's what we're trying to do - change the API14:37
jorgemmarkmcclain: okay backwards compat. is a real concern I'm assuming14:37
bloganmarkmcclain: is now the time to drastically change the api and break backwards compatibility?14:37
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rm_worksballe: sounds interesting, but a two-way dependency seems scary to me14:37
markmcclainjorgem: yes backwards compatibility is a concern14:37
rm_workmaybe I am thinking about it wrong, it's early :P14:37
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enikanorov__i think the confusion of the existing API comes from some simplifications14:38
jorgemmarkmcclain: Okay, that's fine with me. How much can we alter then if it currently needs an update?14:38
bloganmarkmcclain: not breaking backwards compatibility is a big hinderance when it comes to fixing the api, unless those api calls are just deprecated but still work14:38
sballerm_work, It could be for advanced capabilities and maybe for a set of LBaaS extension APIs14:38
enikanorov__like pool object playing a role of 'loadbalancer' object14:38
markmcclainjorgem: I think we have the opportunity to define a new api14:38
markmcclainand provide compatibility with the old one14:38
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sbalukoffmarkmcclain: That's going to get confusing if we re-use terms. (eg. meaning of 'VIP' changes in object model proposals.)14:39
markmcclainblogan: we only have to provide compatibility at the rest layer14:39
jorgemmarkmcclain: That makes sense. I feel like we will eventually need to get in the groove of that so now is as good a time as ever14:39
rm_workmarkmcclain: doesn't that require a way to Version the API? unless we're not straying too far14:39
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sballemarkmcclain, can we not use API versioning to ensure backwards compatibility for a little while?14:39
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blogansballe: i dont think so since its a service plugin14:39
sballerm_work, you were reading my mind ;-)14:39
sbalukoffAah yes-- versioning the API could allow us to re-use terms that have been re-defined in later models.14:39
enikanorov__i think backward compat is concern  not for community only, but for vendors & users as well14:40
markmcclainwe will need to provide rest compatibility14:40
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enikanorov__that's why i'm only pro changing the API if it's staying in existing 'boundaries'14:40
rm_worksballe: i don't know neutron very well, so I don't know exactly how it works, but people keep asking about whether we can version or not, and so far it has sounded like NOT -- since we are a plugin for neutron, and it would have to be a neutron version14:40
rm_workI would love some final clarity on that14:40
enikanorov__right now all 3 proposals can be made bw-compatible14:40
markmcclainfor the main server we will be discussing and working on the v3 API14:41
sballerm_work, I am learning myself which is why I maybe ask slilly questions.14:41
rm_workenikanorov__: I feel like most of those proposals were MADE to be bw-compatible on purpose, and i would like to see one where that is not necessarily a consideration14:41
rm_worksballe: well, i'm right there with you :)14:41
markmcclainduring Juno, so that will provide an opportunity to design this api as we need and then provide backwards compat to v2 clients14:41
sballerm_work, :)14:41
markmcclainrm_work: +!14:41
bloganmarkmcclain: so design a new API for v3 neutron now?14:42
rm_workso we'd have to version the new LBaaS API along with Neutron 314:42
rm_workthat's… going to be a ways out, yes?14:42
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markmcclainblogan: yes work to clean up a few items and make some extensions core14:42
sbalukoffJuno release is this fall, right? That's not *that* far out.14:42
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markmcclainrm_work: yes there is an opportunity new versions of service plugins14:43
rm_workdoes "during Juno" mean "after the release"?14:43
rm_workso, AFTER this fall?14:43
markmcclainsbalukoff: correct … 6 months is very short14:43
rm_workor does it mean "to go with the Juno release"14:43
rm_workguessing latter14:43
rm_workjust want to make sure14:43
enikanorov__i think, if we're going to make new API14:43
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markmcclaintentatively starts offering the v3 api with juno14:43
enikanorov__we may improve existing14:43
rm_workmarkmcclain: ok thanks14:44
enikanorov__with some of the approaches14:44
enikanorov__so users can evaluate it14:44
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enikanorov__that also could help us create requirements for the new API and see what exactly was not good about the existing one14:44
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enikanorov__markmcclain: how's that sounds?14:45
markmcclainwe have a good start with the requirements wiki14:45
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blogani am glad we have that and a glossary14:46
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enikanorov__markmcclain: i mean, while v3 API is designed, may we work on improving v2?14:46
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jorgemmarkmcclain: So what I am hearing is start fresh on work towards a v3 API? That is the priority right now?14:46
rm_work+1 clean API break to go with Neutron v3 (and keep existing API backwards compatible, but do some mods as enikanorov__ proposes)14:46
markmcclainenikanorov__: depends on the work14:46
markmcclainjorgem: I think a fresh start is a good idea14:47
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rm_worktake off the handcuffs14:47
jorgemI'm just trying to figure out what we should be focusing on right now14:47
enikanorov__markmcclain: the most important reqs are multiple vips per pool and L7 rules, which were going to depend on 'loadbalancer' object14:47
sbalukoffSSL is also a big req.14:48
jorgemmarkmcclain: Ok. If that's the case we should really drill down on the requirements and prioritize them.14:48
jorgemOperator requirements are huge too14:48
sbalukoffjorgem: +114:48
markmcclainenikanorov__: they only depend on the load balancer object because that was the way they were implemented14:48
markmcclainjorgem: +114:48
sballejorgem, +114:48
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tvardemanjorgem: +114:48
bloganmarkmcclain: what do you mean that is the way they were implemented? when?14:49
sballeresiliency/ha is a big on for us14:49
enikanorov__markmcclain: yes, that is so, partially. but whole change will help to evaluate the new API and features it allows to do14:49
sbalukoffsballe: Us too!14:49
enikanorov__markmcclain: so that will help to build v3 API14:49
rm_workblogan: i think he meant "proposed to be implemented"14:49
jorgemmarkmcclain: Rackspace can provide data to back up some of these requirement decisions too14:49
jorgemIt would be nice for other operators to do the same14:49
markmcclainjorgem: great14:49
sballemarkmcclain, so can HP cloud re: date to backyp requirements14:50
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sbalukoffjorgem: I think we could as well.14:50
jorgemsbalukoff: awesome14:50
markmcclainsballe: great14:50
jorgemI'm sensing an action item14:50
sballejorgem, ;-)14:50
markmcclainif we can drive the design priority based on real usage that will be very helpful14:51
jorgem#action Provide operator data to aid in requirements discussion14:51
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jorgemFor example, 90%ish of our cloud lbs are http and https14:51
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jorgemThus, we would focus (from our perspective) on requirements that hit on http and https14:52
sbalukoffjorgem: It's more like 95% for us.14:52
german__same here at HP Cloud14:52
edhallIt's less than half for us14:52
jorgemHowever, I would like to get everyone's data pooled together to help in the decision process14:52
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jorgemedhall: Nice! Didnt' expect that14:53
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jorgemedhall: I'd be very interested to hear you average users use case14:53
jorgemedhall: And be glad to share ours :)14:53
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edhallIn terms of traffic, HTTP/HTTPS of course.  But LB is an internal HA mechanism as well.14:53
enikanorov__ok, it makes sense to create another wiki with user scenarios then14:53
markmcclainglad we're getting some usage data will help to prioritize work14:54
enikanorov__#action create wiki page to collect usage data14:54
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bloganmarkmcclain: are you 100% opposed to a load balancer logical model?14:55
jorgemPercentages are a good measure I think14:55
sballemarkmcclain, I am worried that in some ares like resiliency while we all have the same need for HA that the requirements are different.14:55
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sbalukoffDoesn't look like we're going to get to talk about HA stuff today?  should we plan on continuing that discussion on the mailing list?14:55
markmcclainblogan: I'm not 100% opposed14:55
markmcclainI just want to work through the functions a user needs and how they interact with it from the API14:55
rm_workenikanorov__: we are probably a ways out from discussing the precise role of Heat vs LBaaS API functionality? would that be next time, or TBD14:56
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enikanorov__rm_work: ...or ML14:56
jorgemblogan: I think once we get data we can revisit that per the functions that get priority14:56
rm_workenikanorov__: ok, good point.14:56
enikanorov__markmcclain: some say that users want virtualized appliances also14:56
enikanorov__markmcclain: why can't we provide both?14:56
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sballesbalukoff, re: Service resiliency I was hoping we had the time to discuss today.. ML will have to do until next meeting.14:57
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sballeenikanorov, Can we put HA/resiliency and the pool of standby approach on the next agenda? I'll do some homework before next meeting14:58
rm_workmarkmcclain: IME people like to interact with virtual things that are representations of what they're used to physically -- so to touch a LoadBalancer, they'd expect a LoadBalancer object. I suppose we could TRY to redefine that, but I can't think of a good reason why14:58
enikanorov__sballe: sure we can14:58
sbalukoffsballe: Yep.14:58
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markmcclainenikanorov__: for virtualized appliances it will depends on which user you're talking about the tenant or service provider different use cases14:59
enikanorov__tenant, not provider14:59
enikanorov__i feel that API could provide both 'functions' and 'virtualized appliances' for those who need it15:00
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enikanorov__and i can't understand why we limiting it to functions only15:01
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enikanorov__ok... we're out of time15:01
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bloganenikanorov: are you talking about using VMs and containers as backends?15:01
jorgemthanks everyone!15:01
enikanorov__blogan: no. i'm talking about logical concepts15:01
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openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 27 15:01:37 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:01
sballethx. bye15:01
openstackMinutes (text):
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markmcclainrm_work: some do and some don't… we've also got an opportunity to rethink how some of these items are interacted with15:01
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rm_workmarkmcclain: alright. I guess I'd have to see an example of what you're talking about, laid out so I can get the big picture15:03
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ttxanyone here for the storyboard meeting ?16:01
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* fungi lurking16:02
ttxcody-somerville: you run it ?16:02
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cody-somervilleSure thing16:02
ttxcodekobe: thx!16:02
* ttx juggles with 3 hats atm16:02
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jeblaircody-somerville: "#startmeeting storyboard"16:03
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cody-somerville#startmeeting storyboard16:03
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 27 16:03:13 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is cody-somerville. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: storyboard)"16:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'storyboard'16:03
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cody-somerville#topic MVP status16:03
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*** openstack changes topic to "MVP status (Meeting topic: storyboard)"16:04
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ttxI don't see krotscheck around16:04
ruhewell, what can we discuss without krotscheck and NikitaKonovalov? :)16:04
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ruhei'll call Nikita on cell-phone16:04
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cody-somervilleWell, I'll say that is looking pretty sharp :)16:04
ruhehe was going to attend16:04
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ttxruhe: we can discuss next meeting time and screw them up even more :)16:04
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ttxcody-somerville: maybe we could start with current login breakage ?16:05
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cody-somervilleLogging into storyboard is currently broken, returns 500 error.16:05
cody-somervilleThe bug number for this is.. oh wait.16:05
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cody-somervillejeblair: You wouldn't happen to be able to check the logs real quick would you?16:06
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jeblair[Thu Mar 27 16:05:54 2014] [error] [client 2001:690:2380:7770:ca60:ff:fe0c:6111] ImportError: No module named migrate.changeset16:06
jeblairfull traceback en route16:06
fungicody-somerville: i was so hoping you'd provide a storyboard link to the bug ;)16:07
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ttxweird, been around for a while16:08
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* ttx git blames Monty16:08
cody-somervilleSo I suppose we have two issues:16:09
jeblairi can reproduce with: >>> import storyboard.api.app16:09
cody-somerville1. login is broken; and16:09
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cody-somerville2. our gate is broken.16:09
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jeblair3. we have a testing hole?16:09
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ttxjeblair: I think that falls under 216:10
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jeblairoh, that's what you meant16:10
krotscheckHuhn - sorry, I've been heads down on the comments UI - when did s.o.o break?16:10
ttx"gate" in the existantial sense16:10
jeblairi usually associate 'gate broken' with jenkins giving -2 votes, not +2.  :)16:11
ttxkrotscheck: when did you last use it and it worked ?16:11
krotscheckTwo days ago?16:11
jeblairso errors like this don't show up immediately16:11
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ttxish for me too16:11
jeblairbecause apache keeps processes around for a while before discarding them16:11
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cody-somervilleI think this commit is what introduced the bug:
krotscheckHuhn. Will file that one away16:11
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jeblairit can take a while for apache to get around to starting a new process that loads the wsgi app anew16:11
krotscheckkk, so my problem to fix.16:12
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ttxjeblair: can't reproduce on master tox venv16:12
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cody-somervillethe issue is that sqlalchemy-migrate is now being used in storyboard16:13
cody-somervillesqlalchemy-migrate is only in the test requirements file16:13
cody-somervillenot requirements.txt16:13
jeblairhere's pip freeze from that server:
jeblairthat would do it.16:13
ttxcody-somerville: hah. nice catch16:13
jeblairindeed it is not in that list.16:13
ttxcody-somerville: back to our regular agenda ?16:13
cody-somervillewe'll also need eventlet it looks like16:14
cody-somervilleSure thing16:14
cody-somervillekrotscheck: Any update on MVP status?16:14
krotscheckTesting locally now.16:14
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krotscheckComments and task updates have patches up, the backend is basically there16:15
krotscheckttx and I are arguing about comment ui.16:15
krotscheckThat's more-or-less the status of MVP16:15
jeblairare either of you arguing that it shouldn't let you leave comments? :)16:16
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krotscheckNo, it's more about the layout16:16
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NikitaKonovalovWe wanted auth to be a part of MVP16:16
NikitaKonovalovso what about refresh token16:16
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cody-somervilleDo we have a projected completion date for MVP? (or date rate?)16:16
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ttxkrotscheck: arguably I'm bitching about the whole UI, abusing this change to do so :)16:16
jeblairthis one i take it
krotscheckttx: Well, do you want something that works, right now, and iterate on the UI later? Or do you want something later, that looks the way you want it to, that also works?16:17
ttxkrotscheck: if comment UI is the last step missing from MVP I'm fine letting it go and bitching about ordering in a separate bug16:17
cody-somervillettx: it would be cool if we could get to the point where we can bitch about the ui via storyboard comments on a bug ;)16:17
ttxcody-somerville: no kidding :)16:17
krotscheckMIssing pieces are the comment UI and that task update taht follows it.16:18
persiaSo, columnar for now, and fix it after arguing in storyboard?16:18
krotscheckThat one's minor, it just changes the status labels into a dropdown.16:18
ttxpersia: the last change was no longer columnar16:18
krotscheckttx: persia: Well, it sortof is. Tasks got moved into more of a sidebar.16:19
ttxkrotscheck: if you think it's ready I'll +1 it and bitch about general UI separately.16:19
cody-somerville#topic Foreign keys, soft deletion, oh my!16:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Foreign keys, soft deletion, oh my! (Meeting topic: storyboard)"16:19
krotscheckttx: It'll never be ready. That's the nature of UI16:19
ttxkrotscheck: fwiw we should probably use wireframes to bitch about UI16:19
krotscheckttx: I agree.16:19
krotscheckAnyway: Soft deletion16:19
ttxkrotscheck: rather than forcing you to do wireframes in JS16:20
cody-somervilleIs this topic to discuss if we're going to drop foreign key constraints or not? or about something different?16:20
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ttxcody-somerville: and about soft-deletion and how that factors in16:20
ttxI don't have strong opinions on that, but I know others have16:21
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ttxand it gets to the point where we should decide which way we want to go16:21
ruhedropping FKs means a lot of manual code to remove parentless records16:21
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jeblairi don't think soft deletion affects the question of using fk in the db16:21
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jeblairruhe: no it doesn't16:21
jeblairsqlalchemy needs to understand the relationships between tables in order for it to be useful at all16:22
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jeblair(like having a story object with a tasks attribute that is a list of tasks...16:22
jeblairwhere the story and the tasks are loaded from two different tables, but it handles that automatically)16:22
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cody-somervilleOk. So I agree soft  deletion and dropping fk are separate issues.16:23
jeblairpart of establishing those relationships is also indicating how deletes are handled16:23
jeblairso when you say story.delete() sqla should know to delete all the tasks as well.16:23
ruhejeblair: that changes my vote :)16:23
cody-somervillewhat happens if raw sql is executed?16:23
jeblaircody-somerville: by a rogue admin?16:24
krotscheckSounds to me like the harder problem would be teaching SQLA to do soft-deletes on child records. Is that already an option?16:24
cody-somervillejeblair: no. in the code.16:24
krotscheckcody-somerville: We -2 it.16:24
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krotscheck'cause I'm ok just dropping soft deletes altogether16:24
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jeblairkrotscheck: ++ on both counts16:25
cody-somervilleOk, so I'm strongly opposed to dropping foreign key  constraints. I understand the argument. They're not compelling enough to me to discard the extra protection the constraints provide.16:25
cody-somervilleFWIW, I argued with Monty until he admitted he didn't care strongly about it.16:25
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NikitaKonovalovbut when fetching a child object, we may check if his parent was deleted16:25
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cody-somervilleDoes mysql support views?16:26
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krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: That's harder to do on list GET's16:26
jeblaircody-somerville: fwiw, i have zero interest in dealing with fk problems in the db.  so i do hope someone is going to step up and deal with that.16:26
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ttxfwiw, jeblair has final say here. they will run the thing16:28
cody-somervilleI should note that in sqlalchemy, the ORM is not a core component of the system. It is built on top. It also specifically supports the ability to swap out generated SQL with hand optimized statements.16:28
krotscheckcody-somerville: If you feel that strongly about it, are you willing to take over management of our DB migrations?16:28
ttxnot saying he is right16:28
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ttxor wrong for that matter16:28
ttxMy weak preference is for dropping FKs because the drawbacks are not worth the benefits imho16:29
jeblairmy argument at the moment is that it should be on the table and we should explore it.  i'm not entirely certain what it would look like yet, so i actually think it's premature to make the call one way or the other16:29
jeblairbut i think we can get something on the table to look at pretty soon, and we should try to make a decision like that early16:29
ttxthe only benefit being "data lives longer than apps and it should always be consistent"16:30
ruheStoryBoard is young, we can try and see how it works16:30
cody-somervilleThe sqlalchemy feature page also states "All object-relational patterns are designed around the usage of proper referential integrity, and foreign keys are an integral part of its usage."16:30
ttxjeblair / cody-somerville: how easy is it to remove them / add them back in the future ?16:31
* krotscheck is going to back out of this argument altogether, he's got enough battles looming on the UI16:31
ttxi.e. is it a call we need to make now ?16:31
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cody-somervilleIt's easier to remove them later than to remove them and then re-add them later.16:31
ttxkrotscheck: you agree it's orthogonal to the soft-deletions issue ?16:31
persiaThat's a frightening prospect: either the system integrity is guaranteed or one needs to audit it carefully16:31
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jeblairttx: fairly easy to do both, but adding them back after removal can be difficult if we screw up the db in the interim16:32
krotscheckttx: Yup. Soft deletion is a data implementation detail. FK's are there for integrity.16:32
krotscheckttx: Different problems. Different approaches. Different solutions.16:32
NikitaKonovalovin case with no FK, the db_api will be responsible for handling data correctly16:33
ttxkrotscheck: ok so we don't need to decide now. I put it on agenda because it looked like you needed a call to be made due to that issue leaking into the softdeletion issue16:33
cody-somervilleand once the database constraints are gone, corrupting the integrity of our data is easy as forgetting to add a dependency to the requirements.txt f ile.16:33
jeblaircody-somerville: this is why tests are important16:34
ttxDo we agree on where we are going for deleting objects ?16:34
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jeblairno objection to removing soft-delete16:34
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cody-somervillewait. we're discussing *removing* soft-delete?16:35
cody-somervilleI like soft delete. Tons of value to it.16:35
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ruhecody-somerville: did you follow ?16:35
cody-somervillejeblair: constraints are a type of test16:36
cody-somervilleI don't read those, no.16:36
jeblaircody-somerville: hah, so there's a change to "move to soft delete" which has a -1 because "openstack is moving away from it"; so confusion about the motion on the table is understandable...16:36
jeblairi probably should not have said "removing soft-delete" since i don't know how much soft delete we actually do right now...16:36
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krotscheckBackstory: I found the soft delete mixin in Oslo. I thought: Oh, we already have something like this, maybe we should use oslo instead! Then that thread started.16:37
NikitaKonovalovjeblair: we have soft delete for stories, tasks, comments and tokens16:37
ttxkrotscheck: maybe we should just keep using what we use now and close the pandora box16:38
jeblaira more general question is what do we need from the ux pov?  we don't ever really want to delete stories, right?16:38
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cody-somervilleYes, we may want to.16:38
jeblairtasks?  maybe... comments? possibly admin-only (for spam/malware/etc), tokens?  hard-delete seems to make sense16:38
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krotscheckGood question. That hasn't relaly been discussed yet, I just put it in because people were putting garbage data into the UI16:39
NikitaKonovalova user may accidentally remove his comment, we may allow him to restore it16:39
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cody-somervillePlus metrics and stats are important (like comments over time). We'd want to continue to have that data even if we say delete a project.16:39
krotscheckThe reason I used soft delete because I started running into issues where I'd deleted a project, but the task still showed up as active.16:40
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krotscheckcody-somerville: Data collection is a separate issue, and I don't think that should be handled directly from DB data.16:40
krotscheckwe can argue about how to do that later.16:40
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jeblairi'm a 'urls are forever' kind of guy, so i would be in favor of having projects, stories and comments be able to be deleted only by an admin16:40
krotscheckHonestly, I'd rather prefer hard deletes as long as the key references are properly handled.16:41
jeblairwe can't delete gerrit projects anyway, so it's not going to come up very often.16:41
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persiaDeleting tasks is probably more common: sometimes one discovers one doesn't need to do something.16:41
cody-somervilleI really want soft deletes. cause I know I'll need them.16:42
persiaComments are also popular for edit/delete, although there are revisionist historical arguments against that.16:42
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NikitaKonovalovwe need to delete tokens not in a 'soft', or they will slow down the database, when there are millions of them16:43
cody-somerville#agreed Keep foreign keys. Discussion can be re-opened later down the road if needed.16:43
jeblaircody-somerville: i thought we were talking about soft delete?16:43
cody-somervilleNikitaKonovalov: agreed.16:43
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cody-somerville#agreed Keep soft deletes. Discussion can be re-opened after MVP.16:44
cody-somervilleAnything else on this topic? We need to move on with agenda.16:44
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ttxjeblair: I'm a "urls are meaningful' guy, and I don't really like URLs using numbers to designate projects... not sure how to fix it though16:44
ttxcodekobe: nope, move on16:44
ttxcody-somerville: ^16:44
jeblairttx: yeah16:44
cody-somerville#topic Finishing auth: refresh tokens, clearing db from unused codes and tokens16:44
ttxcodTAB fail16:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Finishing auth: refresh tokens, clearing db from unused codes and tokens (Meeting topic: storyboard)"16:44
krotscheckHuh? We didn't agree on either of those.16:44
cody-somervilleYes we did.16:45
* krotscheck reads scrollback16:45
cody-somervilleNikitaKonovalov: What's the sitrep with auth? :)16:45
NikitaKonovalovwe want it to be apart of mvp16:46
krotscheckI said I prefer hard deletes. jeblair said he wants only admins to delete things, and said hard-delete makes sense. How did we agree on keeping soft delete?16:46
NikitaKonovalovthe missing thing is handling the refresh_token16:46
krotscheckDid I miss something?16:46
cody-somervillekrotscheck: We currently have soft deletes. There was no strong consensus to remove that functionality and considerable consensus the feature can be useful.16:47
cody-somervilleNikitaKonovalov: What needs to happen there?16:47
NikitaKonovalovnow the user has to authorize every hour when his access_token expires16:47
krotscheckcody-somerville: Maintaining the status quo is not agreeing on anything.16:47
NikitaKonovalovso what we need is ...16:48
NikitaKonovalovjust follow the protocol on both sides16:48
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NikitaKonovalovThe server is almost ready, except for a /token endpoint16:48
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NikitaKonovalovthe client needs a check for expiration to send refresh request16:49
cody-somervilleNikitaKonovalov: I agree that authentication should be a part of the MVP, especially with it being so close to  completion.16:49
cody-somervilleDoes anyone object to authentication being part of the MVP?16:50
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krotscheckI believe that the current state of auth is sufficient for MVP16:51
krotscheckRefresh tokens are nice, but not necessary16:51
jeblairyeah, i'm not actually following what's missing16:51
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NikitaKonovalovjeblair: you have to go through launchpad every hour using storyboard :)16:51
ttxrefresh token can be out of MVP16:51
cody-somervilleCan we just extend the expiration of the token?16:52
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cody-somervillethat is, the default initial one?16:52
NikitaKonovalovcody-somerville: we can16:52
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jeblairNikitaKonovalov: got it.  yes, i don't think that's too important for mvp, but should definitely be the next auth-related thing we do.16:52
cody-somervilleCause I'm pretty sure I've been using the same cookie for launchpad itself for months ;p16:52
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NikitaKonovalovso let's just extend the time to 24 hours then16:53
cody-somervilleHow about a week?16:54
krotscheck24 hours seems good. Just annoying enough for us to remember to put refresh tokens in.16:54
jeblairkrotscheck: ++16:54
krotscheckA week drops below the threshold of giving a fuck.16:54
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NikitaKonovalovI think we'll agree on a configurable value16:55
cody-somervilleIf you submit a form or something when token expires, do we hold the data and submit it after auth?16:55
cody-somerville#agreed Current state of auth is sufficient for MVP16:55
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krotscheckNope. We don't maintain state when you're redirected to launchpad.16:55
cody-somerville#agreed Extend default token expiry to 24 hours.16:56
persiacody-somerville: Hrm?  I thought we agreed that auth token expiry should be adjusted to 24 hours, rather than 1.16:56
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cody-somervilleIt's a configuration value apparently.16:56
cody-somerville#topic Next meeting time (rest of world DST)16:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Next meeting time (rest of world DST) (Meeting topic: storyboard)"16:57
cody-somervillettx: ^^16:57
ttxoh ya16:57
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ttxrest of world moves to summer time this weekend16:57
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ttxso this meeting time will start becoming inconvenient for me16:57
ruhettx: aren't we a part of the world any more? :)16:57
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ruhewe don't have summer/winter time16:58
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ttxruhe: oh16:58
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ttxruhe: so it might not be that much of a problem then16:58
ttxI'll just have trouble attending starting next week16:58
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cody-somervilleShould we change the time?16:59
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ttxbut I suspect one hour earlier makes it bad for krotscheck (that's what we had pre-DSt change)16:59
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krotscheckWe got bumped16:59
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ttxkrotscheck: would one hour earlier work for you ?16:59
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krotscheckGoing an hour earlier will make it 8am for me again, which is what it was before our own DST change.17:00
krotscheckSo yes, that'll work17:00
jeblairone hour earlier or later wfm;17:00
jeblairone hour earlier would make it 7am after we change back though17:00
ttxok so 15:00 UTC during summer season17:00
ttxjeblair: we'll change again then17:01
cody-somerville#agreed Move meeting one hour back17:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:01
openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 27 17:01:15 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:01
ttxthere is no good UTC time all-year-round for CA/EU meetings17:01
jeblairttx: oh wow, os-meeting is even available then.17:01
cody-somervilleThanks folks.17:01
openstackMinutes (text):
mtreinish#startmeeting qa17:01
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openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 27 17:01:28 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mtreinish. Information about MeetBot at
ttxI'll fix it17:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: qa)"17:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'qa'17:01
mtreinishhi who do we have here today?17:01
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mtreinish^^^ Today's agenda17:02
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mtreinishok well let's get started17:03
mtreinish#topic QA Specs Repo Proposals (sdague)17:03
*** openstack changes topic to "QA Specs Repo Proposals (sdague) (Meeting topic: qa)"17:03
sdagueok, so we have the qa-specs repo17:03
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sdagueand we even have an agreed to template now17:03
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sdagueso I think the point for this agenda item was to go through a spec or two and see what our feedback should be on it17:04
sdaguemtreinish: you have a couple up, right?17:04
sdaguedo you want to volunteer one of those?17:05
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mtreinishsdague: yeah I pushed up the non high prio bps as specs reviews:17:05
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sdagueok, lets take 8293317:06
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sdaguefeedback that I'd like to see there is the that it's a new tool, so it should include where that tool will go in the source tree17:07
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sdagueand we should probably have the -h output for it mocked out, so what's optional or not can be seen up front17:07
sdaguein the spec17:08
sdaguethen I'd consider it good17:08
sdagueanyone else have feedback?17:08
sdagueor feel that feedback is too specific?17:08
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mtreinishheh, well it's already in the tools dir :)17:08
mtreinishsdague: no those are good points17:08
dkranzThe alternative is to generate the config file and supply the admin creds as an argument17:08
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dkranzThat is basically what I did in the sample generator I submitted as WIP17:09
dkranzBut seeing the -h output would make it clearer17:09
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mtreinishdkranz: I had an alternative listed in the spec for something like that17:09
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dkranzmtreinish: Yes, I saw that. My comment was about that part.17:10
sdagueso the alternatives section is one I'm sort of meh about17:10
mtreinishyeah I'll add the -h option, although honestly it'll have only one bool option17:10
mtreinishsdague: it was in the template so I used it17:10
dkranzsdague: meh because you don't like it or because there should not be such a section?17:10
sdagueit's important in nova because they get a lot of competing duplicative approaches17:10
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sdaguedkranz: right, I wonder if people feel it's important for qa-specs in general17:11
sdagueI could go either way17:11
dkranzsdague: I don't see anything wrong with it but perhaps not required17:11
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mtreinishI think it's listed as optional in the template17:11
sdaguemtreinish: ok, that's fine17:11
mtreinishsdague: that was one of my first review comments when cyeoh posted the first template draft17:12
sdagueok, great17:12
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sdagueok, any other feedback on this one?17:12
yfriedsdague: that might have already been said,17:13
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sdague is the 2nd one17:13
yfriedsdague: but I think once the config-verification is done, it should point to this spec somehow for futur docs17:13
sdagueyfried: what exactly do you mean?17:14
yfried*future documentation17:14
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yfriedsdague: a new guy looking at that module will find all this discussion very helpful17:15
sdagueyfried: so the specs repo is largely to define the blueprint17:15
sdaguethen the implementation will happen there17:15
sdaguein tree based on the approved blueprint17:15
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sdagueI'm not sure it's going to be better than the actual implementation for documentationm17:16
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sdague - mtreinish I couple of comments there17:16
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sdaguefirst, like with the last one, it's probably worth making it explicit where the code is getting added in tempest17:16
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sdaguewhich is sort of there in prose, but could probably be broken out17:17
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vrovachevsdague: I want remove all unused variables in tempest. What you think about it.17:17
sdaguealso, I think a code sample of what the code would look like afterwards would be useful17:17
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mtreinishsdague: ok, so basically we should include more examples in specs then17:17
mtreinishwe probably should put that in the template or readme17:18
sdagueyeh, I think examples will make it more reviable17:18
sdagueat least for me, that's how I wrap my head around things17:18
mtreinishno that's a good point17:18
sdaguevrovachev: ok, is that part of the specs discussion? or is that for open discussion?17:19
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sdaguei.e. should it wait until the end of the meeting17:19
sdagueanyone else have comments on -  ?17:19
mtreinishvrovachev: yeah that's off topic, if we have an open discussion section you can bring it up then17:19
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sdagueother than that, I think this is looking pretty solid17:20
mtreinishsdague: ok cool17:20
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mtreinishso would you say we're open for real on this then?17:20
sdaguemtreinish: you want to make another iteration on those? We can handle any remaining feedback in review17:21
mtreinishsdague: yeah I'll do it after the meeting17:21
sdaguemtreinish: lets plan for end of next week to make that open beyond this group17:21
sdagueI'd like landed content that are good examples17:21
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vrovachevmtreinish: Good, sorry.17:21
mtreinishsdague: ok yeah that'll probably be helpful17:22
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sdagueandreaf: can you convert yours to this template - ?17:22
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sdagueI think that would be another good one to review during the week17:22
andreafsdague: sure I was hoping to do that before the meeting but didn't manage to17:23
sdagueandreaf: yep, no problem17:23
mtreinishok then I guess we can move on if there isn't anything else17:23
andreafsdague: one question re the template, do we include copyright notice in those like the code?17:23
mtreinishandreaf: yeah the cc license like in the template17:24
sdagueandreaf: if your employer really wants a called out copyright, you can17:24
sdagueas long as it has the CC license in it17:24
andreafsdague: ok thanks17:25
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sdagueok, I think we're making good progress here17:25
sdagueanything else on specs?17:25
sdagueback to you mtreinish17:26
mtreinish#topic Blueprints17:26
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mtreinishsdague: did you want to do a high prio bp review17:26
mtreinishor skip it this week because of the specs discussion17:26
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sdagueI think we can skip17:27
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sdagueespecially as we seem to have a small audience17:27
mtreinishok then did anyone have any bps they'd like to bring up17:27
mtreinishotherwise we'll move on17:27
andreafmtreinish: ok one17:28
mtreinishandreaf: sure go ahead17:28
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andreafit's related to the multi-auth bp17:28
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andreafbut on the infra side of things17:28
andreafI have to align the spec to the template for this one too, but it would be good to get some review on it17:29
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mtreinishandreaf: yeah we can do the review in gerrit now :)17:29
andreafat the moment is not prioritized, but it shall probably be same prio as the multi auth one17:30
mtreinishandreaf: yeah that'll come after the spec review (see the readme)17:30
mtreinishbut it seems pretty straightforward17:30
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andreafmtreinish: thanks that's all17:31
mtreinishandreaf: ok thanks17:31
mtreinishok are there any other bps to discuss?17:31
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mtreinishok then let's move on17:32
mtreinish#topic Neutron testing17:32
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mtreinishmlavalle: are there any updates on neutron testing?17:32
mlavalleWe have continued merging api tests17:32
mlavalleI am tracking 28 patchsets. As of today, we have merged 1617:32
mlavalleThere are 5 abandoned. I have sent email to the authors. 3 responded and will be restarting their patchsets over the next couple of days17:33
mlavalleThe other 2 I assigned to myself17:33
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mlavalleI have 2 patchsets that only need one more +2 to merge:17:34
mtreinishmlavalle: ok cool17:35
yfriedmlavalle: this might be off-topic, but - is there any chance to apply this productive approach to network-scenarios (as well as api)17:35
mlavallePlease take a look at them and see if we can merge them17:35
mtreinishhopefully we'll get this all merged before the release17:35
mtreinishyfried: this is just for getting api coverage on neutron17:35
mlavalleyfried: of course. I just don't want to spread myself to thin in this cycle, but scenario testing is my next goal17:35
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mtreinishscenarios are a bit more involved so I'm not sure a similar structure would be as effective17:36
mtreinishunless there was a predefined list of scenarios to implement17:36
mlavallewe can give it a try :-)17:36
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mlavalleand start with a predefined list17:36
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yfriedmlavalle: I understand. I think the first step would be to draft a list of scenarios to implement17:36
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mlavallelet's partner on that17:37
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mlavallethat's all I have17:37
mtreinishok is there anything else on neutron testing from anyone else?17:37
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sdaguedo we have an idea on how close the full job is?17:38
afazekaswhat is required to make the full neutron job voting ?17:38
mtreinishsdague: there has been a ml thread on that17:38
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mtreinishsalv-orlando and rossella_s have been looking at it17:38
mtreinishI think there are still a few bugs but it's looking like we'll greenlight the week after release17:39
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salv-orlandoWe've been looking at failure rate, and rossella_s has a script which keeps spinning a patch in the check queue17:39
salv-orlandoSo far it does not seem much worse than the smoke job17:39
salv-orlandoso I would say after release, we switch it to voting17:39
sdaguesalv-orlando: I wonder if we could get rossella_s talking with the infra team about background queue jobs17:39
sdagueinstead of doing that in check like that17:40
rossella_ssdague: I'd be glad to talk to them17:40
sdaguebecause that's something we actually very much wanted to get baselines on all the test suites17:40
salv-orlandoshe's online...17:40
sdaguerossella_s: awesome17:40
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mtreinishsdague: do those still get picked up by e-s?17:40
sdaguemtreinish: the point would be to make them17:40
sdagueelastic search17:40
sdagueand elastic recheck17:40
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sdagueso basically we could have control data from master17:40
salv-orlandosorry got my acronyms mixed up17:40
sdagueyep, no worries17:41
mtreinishsalv-orlando: it's ok, I'm just lazy17:41
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afazekasBTW: is the neutron more stable with pgsql based on statistics ?17:41
sdaguerossella_s: ok, so how about post meeting we jump to -infra and talk about this17:41
salv-orlandoif you were really lazy you would have avoided using the dash as well; you probably had to stretch your right middle finger for that!17:41
rossella_ssdague: ok, awesome!17:42
salv-orlandoafazekas: I would say mysql failure rate is actually higher than postgres17:42
sdaguesalv-orlando: there is another difference in those jobs17:42
sdagueI believe mysql is using the metadata server17:42
sdagueand pg is not17:42
salv-orlandodoes pg uses config drive?17:43
afazekassalv-orlando: so the eventlet vs mysql native driver issue is visible..17:43
sdaguesalv-orlando: I think so17:43
sdaguethe layout.yaml definition should say17:43
salv-orlandoright. so keep going with the meeting I'll be back in 5 with numbers from the past week17:43
mtreinishsalv-orlando: ok cool17:43
mtreinishthen I guess we should move onto the next topic17:43
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mtreinish#topic Heat testing17:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Heat testing (Meeting topic: qa)"17:44
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mtreinishsdague, stevebaker: I've seen stuff from both of you on this17:44
mtreinishare there any updates?17:44
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sdaguemtreinish: I did the refactor to get the templates out of the code17:45
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sdaguethat's landed now17:45
sdaguewhich I think makes things a lot easier to understand17:45
sdagueand review17:45
sdaguethere are some additional patches inbound17:45
sdagueI went through a stack by shardy this morning and gave some feedback17:45
sdaguealso SergeyLukjanov was talking about adding sahara scenario tests that would use the heat provisioning17:46
sdaguewhich would help all around17:46
mtreinishok cool, I'll take a look at them when they come back through17:46
SergeyLukjanovI'm here17:46
SergeyLukjanovreading scrollback17:46
mtreinishyeah that would be cool to see come through17:46
mtreinishwe'd run it on the heat slow job I'm assuming17:46
sdaguethe sahara part will have to wait until we cut stable/icehouse17:46
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mtreinishyeah that's fine, it's only a couple weeks away anyway17:47
SergeyLukjanovsdague, yup, I hope to have some PoC heat-based tests for sahara in summit time17:47
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sdaguewhich we should probably decide what else has to land before we do that, as we are going to start getting open masters on projects again soon17:47
sdaguekeystone has a juno master now IIRC17:47
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mtreinishsdague: I think I saw an email from ttx abount cinder too17:48
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SergeyLukjanovI think all projects will cut their first i-rc till the end of next week17:48
sdagueSergeyLukjanov: that's the hope17:48
SergeyLukjanovsdague, I've prepared change for d-g to cut conditions17:48
SergeyLukjanovand enable sahara in gate17:48
SergeyLukjanovof course, the first one depends one rc1 cuts and the second one is on your wish :)17:49
mtreinishSergeyLukjanov: well I wasn't planning on cutting tempest until release day, which is what've done for the past few cycles17:50
sdagueSergeyLukjanov: so I think the issue is we don't get stable/icehouse branches till much later, right?17:50
sdaguenow we're sitting on milestone proposed?17:50
mtreinishsdague: yeah I think that's right it's milestone proposed until release day17:50
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sdaguewe should maybe revisit that17:50
sdagueanyway, we should move on 10 minutes17:51
mtreinishok yeah17:51
SergeyLukjanovoh, yup, sure, so, April 18 will be ready :)17:51
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mtreinish#topic Bugs17:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: qa)"17:51
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mtreinishso does anyone have any bugs that they would like to bring up?17:51
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mtreinishor are there any critical bugs that need attention?17:52
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mtreinishok I guess not17:53
mtreinishso let's move on17:53
mtreinish#topic Critical Reviews17:53
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mtreinishdoes anyone have any reviews they'd like to get eyes on?17:53
andreafI do17:53
andreafas usual:,n,z17:53
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mtreinishandreaf: yeah I'll try to give it a thorough review this week17:54
mtreinishit does take some time though17:54
andreafIt's a chain of 7 patch-sets for the multi-auth bp17:54
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andreafmtreinish: thanks - I tried to reduce the size as much as possible17:54
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mtreinishok are there any other reviews?17:54
andreafmtreinish: in the meantime I started working on auth provided via keystone official client for the scenario tests - bit still WIP17:55
afazekasThe ssh instance validation things has enough problem without discussing the uec or not uec default image , I would recommend to stay with uec anyway17:55
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mtreinishandreaf: I thought we used the keystoneclient for auth in scenario already17:56
mtreinishor at least with tenant isolation we do17:56
mtreinishor did you mean tokens?17:56
andreafmtreinish: yes but it's a fixed version of keystone client17:56
andreafI'm moving it to auth so it uses the right version17:56
mtreinishahh ok17:57
* salv-orlando has the failure rate numbers and is waiting for open discussion17:57
sdaguesalv-orlando: go for it, we only have 3 minutes17:57
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sdagueor we can take it to -qa after17:57
mtreinish#topic Open Discussion17:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: qa)"17:57
mtreinishsalv-orlando: go ahead17:57
salv-orlandopast 7 days: mysql failure rate 2.79%, pg: 2.04%17:57
mtreinishwe can move to -qa if it takes longer17:57
salv-orlandothere is a tail in mysql of the effects of bug 128352217:58
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1283522 in neutron "DB lock timeout errors with parallel operations" [Critical,Fix committed]
salv-orlandoconsidering past 5 days only17:58
salv-orlandomysql failure rate: 2.26%, pg:3.34%17:58
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salv-orlandobut the amount of pg jobs is rather small so I would not regard the last info as statistically significant17:58
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salv-orlandothat's all17:58
mtreinishsalv-orlando: is that the full parallel jobs or the smoke jobs?17:58
mtreinishoh I guess it's smoke if it's pg nm17:58
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mtreinishok well we're out of time for today17:59
salv-orlandosmoke. Full parallel job we have only 21 baseline runs so far. too little to say anything. But we found 3 failures in full job (1/7)17:59
mtreinishwe can pick anything else up on -qa17:59
mtreinishthanks everyone17:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:59
openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 27 17:59:48 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:59
openstackMinutes (text):
mtreinishsalv-orlando: yeah that makes sense17:59
afazekassalv-orlando: is it option for neutron to limit the db connection to one /worker process ? and increase the number of workers on the gate ?18:00
salv-orlandoI don't think we have this option afazekas in neutron18:00
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Shohel02hi all18:04
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Shohel02ossg ?18:04
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lukehindsHi, Is the SEC meeting next?18:04
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malini1bdpayne sent out a late cancel msg18:05
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lukehindsAhh, np then18:05
malini1after seeing silence I checked on email msgs18:05
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lukehindsSee you * next week then18:05
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malini1bye all18:05
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CristianFok, thanks. bye.18:06
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Shohel02bye all18:06
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mriedemhalf of cyeoh?21:00
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cyeoh_halfmriedem: all I can spare at the moment :-)21:00
russellb#startmeeting nova21:00
mriedemwell, depends on horizontal or vertical split21:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 27 21:00:38 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is russellb. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)"21:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova'21:00
russellbhello!  who's here?21:00
mspreitzI am21:00
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russellb#topic icehouse-rc121:01
*** openstack changes topic to "icehouse-rc1 (Meeting topic: nova)"21:01
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russellbgoal is to release icehouse-rc1 by end of week (tomorrow)21:01
russellbso let's see how we're doing21:01
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russellb4 bugs left to go, so let's go through them one by one21:02
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1296913 in nova "GroupAntiAffinityFilter scheduler hint no longer works" [High,Confirmed]21:02
russellbThis one is on me21:02
russellband i have a fix running unit tests locally at the moment21:02
russellbwill post once they finish21:02
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russellbcould use reviews once the fixes are up21:02
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1112912 in nova "get_firewall_required should use VIF parameter from neutron" [High,In progress]21:03
russellbanother one that came up this week21:03
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russellbfix is in the gate21:03
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1295381 in nova "VMware: resize operates on orig VM and not clone" [High,In progress]21:03
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russellbwhat's the status on this one?21:03
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* jogo walks in late21:04
* russellb hasn't looked today21:04
* hartsocks walks in late as well21:04
tjonesthat one has been reviewed and updated today21:04
tjonesim checking on it just a sec21:04
russellbtjones: OK thanks21:04
dansmithkinda troubling that that one is still evolving this late21:04
dansmithsince it's not a small fix21:04
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dansmithjenkins has not voted on the latest version for some reasn21:05
tjonesminesweeper is dead today due to an upgrade from grizz to havana21:05
russellbcheck zuul?21:05
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dansmithtjones: so we're not going to get a minesweeper read on this one?21:05
jogosince this bug is in only 1 virt dirver for one operation, is it still a blocker for RC1?21:05
tjonesdansmith:  im hoping we will.  arosen is working like mad on it21:05
jogoI would like to see it make RC1 of course21:05
dansmithjogo: maybe we hold this for later rcs once we get a minesweeper read?21:06
russellbtjones: how bad would it be if it misses rc1?21:06
russellbi don't want to *plan* on an rc2 ... but based on history, seems quite likely21:06
tjoneswe had a good run yesterday with minimal changes today.  it would mean resize basically is broken21:06
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tjonesit resizes the wrong vm disk21:06
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jogotjones: this can always be one of the first backports to stable/havana if needed.21:07
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tjonesjogo: stable/icehouse?21:07
russellbheh, right21:07
jogotjones: derp yes21:07
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russellbso you guys think we should block until minesweeper can run on it?21:07
dansmithI think we should21:07
russellbyeah ..21:07
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tjonesok i will let you know as soon as it gets running.  it will be the 1st patch in21:08
jogoI think the risk to DB migrations from this patch is very minimal21:08
russellbtjones: perfect21:08
jogobut I am all for being cautious21:08
dansmithso should I untarget it?21:08
russellbdansmith: no leave it21:08
russellblet's plan on it going in21:08
russellbbut if it's the last bug standing, then we can untarget21:08
jogorussellb: ++21:09
russellbtjones: be sure to make noise once it gets a run21:09
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tjonesrussellb will do21:09
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1240922 in nova "VM don't resume after detaching volume" [Medium,In progress]21:09
russellbstatus on this one?21:10
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russellbthat's on ndipanov, but i bet he's sleeping :)21:11
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russellbthat one has a patch,
russellbneeds review21:12
russellbi just +2d it21:12
russellbseems reasonable to me21:12
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russellbalso, the instance group fixes ...
russellbjogo: thanks!21:13
russellbany more issues related to icehouse-rc1?21:13
russellblooks like we're on target to be able to do rc1 tomorrow, so that's great21:14
russellbreally appreciate everyone's help keeping this bug list under control21:14
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russellba pretty clean burndown line21:14
russellbtjones: and thanks for your work on bug wrangling!21:14
tjonesrussellb: my pleasure - i love bossing people around ;-)21:15
russellb#topic bugs21:15
*** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: nova)"21:15
russellbtjones: any other bug talk for today?21:15
tjonesnothing critical - let me check the untagged real quick21:15
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tjonesit changes quickly.  i'll let you know if i see anything21:16
russellbmelwitt: anything on the novaclient bug queue today?21:16
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mriedemdims had a novaclient patch for an ipv6 parsing bug21:17
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mriedemdon't know if it's critical21:17
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melwittrussellb: nothing looks new but I need to go through it more21:18
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russellbmelwitt: ok all good thanks!21:18
russellb#topic blueprints21:18
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: nova)"21:18
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russellbthe mail above discusses the updated blueprint plan for Juno21:18
russellbthe summary is that we've added a git repo so we can use gerrit for doing review of specs21:18
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russellbwe've been working quickly to get this ready for when Juno opens (as early as tomorrow)21:19
russellbthe email above has links to the repo's README and the template we've been building to base specs on21:19
russellbany comments/questions/concerns on this updated process?21:19
jogorussellb: how far off are we from doc generation and gating21:19
russellbjogo: nothing done there yet AFAIK21:19
russellbit's a spinx project now at least21:19
jogoand do we have a domain we can publish too?21:20
russellbno idea21:20
leifzHas there been any test runs?21:20 :-p21:20
sdaguejogo: publishing the sphinx job really isn't critical21:20
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russellbleifz: test runs in what sense?21:20
russellbsdague: that's how i feel too21:20
sdaguethe entry point is blueprints.launchpad.net21:20
leifzSomebody run their blueprint through?21:20
jogosdague: well we want to make sure the blueprints are easy to read21:20
russellbleifz: not yet21:20
sdaguejogo: blueprints.launchpad.net21:20
russellbwe've been blocking doing real reviews on specs while we work out the template21:21
russellbgithub will render the files i bet21:21
leifzSure thing. :-)21:21
sdagueyeh, valid rst will render21:21
jogoone issue with the current template:21:21
jogowhen someone fills it out, it will be hard to see if they skipped any sections21:21
russellbjogo: i was thinking about that21:21
jogobeing they will just delete the stuff21:21
jogoI liked the idea of rst comments21:22
russellbfor now i'm thinking have the template open in another tab as you go through and read it21:22
russellball the rst comments might be really annoying/distracting when trying to read it in gerrit21:22
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jogobefore we open the propsals up I think we should try this with a single propsal21:23
jogoso we can work out any kinks21:23
jogorussellb: that may work21:23
jogomikal: may have one21:23
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russellbcould file a pretty simple "backportable DB migrations" blueprint21:23
devoidjogo, could have a test that fails if a section has less than x words and does not start with "None."21:23
tjonesi can volunteer spawn refactor ;-)21:23
russellbthat's something we know we want to approve21:23
tjonesi mean for hartsocks21:23
russellbso we can get it through quickly21:23
hartsocksI was planning on writing the spawn refactor proposal.21:23
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hartsocksI was planning on posting something on that as soon as you folks were ready I meant to say.21:24
jogoI was thinking
mspreitzI have another question: when we switch to the new system, when does a BP go into launchpad?21:24
jogomikal already claimed 'first'21:24
russellbmspreitz: it's basically the same process in launchpad as before21:24
* jogo waves at mikal 21:24
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russellbthe addition is that the "link to spec" on the blueprint has to point to a review in gerrit21:25
russellbinstead of a wiki page, google doc, or nothing21:25
mspreitzSo a BP goes into both places at the start?21:25
russellbthat make sense?21:25
russellbit's basically standardizing on where specs go21:25
mspreitzgot it21:25
mikalI need to tweak mine to match the new template but I could do that today to one of them if we wanted a test case21:25
russellband reviewing them through gerrit21:25
mspreitzthat could be stated explicitly in the intro to the new system21:25
russellbif we block everything on one BP, i want to pick the simplest one possible to expedite it21:25
tjonesmakes sense21:25
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mspreitzI have to go now.  Bye21:26
devoidwhy block everything? especially reviews?21:26
russellbdevoid: jogo was interested in a trial run21:26
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russellbi think the juno equivalent of would be quick and easy though21:26
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russellbthat has to be the first db migration merge anyway21:27
jogorussellb:  that works21:27
russellbi can write that up tomorrow21:27
russellbonce rc1 is sorted21:27
russellbanything else on the blueprint plans?21:27
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hartsocksI'll just need help walking through the new procedure when it comes time to propose the spawn-refactor stuff.21:28
russellbhartsocks: yep, np21:28
russellb#topic open discussion21:28
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: nova)"21:28
hartsocksI'm sure a number of other folks will be in the same place.21:29
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1282629 in openstack-ci "Log #openstack-nova in Eavesdrop" [Medium,Incomplete]21:29
russellbif you have an opinion on whether #openstack-nova should be logged or not, please comment on that bug21:29
russellbmost channels are logged.  i don't really like it, but happy to do whatever most people want21:29
russellbjust vote on the bug21:29
devoidrussellb, yea, and I've switched my opinion on it. but there were +1's there and I don't want to close it for them.21:30
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russellba vote of -1 is fine too if that's how you feel21:30
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* dansmith just voted21:31
yjiang5_1russellb: do you know any method to search the log easily? I think a lot of discussion happens on IRC, so it will be helpful if some tools  to dig out information from the log.21:31
russellbgoogle if it's logged21:31
* hartsocks voting -1 on logging21:32
yjiang5_1russellb: thanks.21:32
* geekinutah votes -121:32
tjonesim fine with not logging - i have a proxy21:32
cyeoh_halfyiang5_1: I suspect a lot of people just use irc loggers like znc and then just use grep21:32
russellbany other topics for today?21:32
dansmithhow many -1 votes does it take? :)21:33
yjiang5_1cyeoh_half: thanks for information. I will check what's znc :)21:33
russellbgetting close to opening juno!21:33
beaglesas it was likely my question in irc yesterday that brings that topic up ..21:33
tjonesyjiang5_1: it's pretty simple but i can help if you need it21:33
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yjiang5_1tjones: really thanks and will turn to you if need any help.21:33
beaglesI also log... but if it isn't not a logged channel I prefer to make sure I only refer to old info for personal use21:34
hartsocksIt's radically different to keep channel logs for your own use than it is to expose the channel logs to a web crawler.21:34
cyeoh_halfhartsocks: yea I think this only comes up because lots of people new to IRC, can't stay connected all the time and dont know about irc proxies21:36
cyeoh_halfso we could just point people to them when they ask about logging21:36
mikalOr write up a "how to irc" wiki page21:36
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hartsocksI've deliberately avoided building a proxy for myself. I can't possibly keep track of everything. I might change my mind late, however.21:36
russellbznc rocks21:37
cyeoh_halfhartsocks: depends on what timezone you're in. For some people it's really necessary21:37
cyeoh_half+1 for znc!21:37
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russellbanything else?  otherwise we can close up early21:38
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dansmith+1 for early!21:39
russellbk :)21:39
russellbthanks everyone!21:39
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openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 27 21:39:53 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:39
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