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| Daisy_ | Hello, who are there for I18n meeting? | 07:00 |
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| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, hello | 07:01 |
| Daisy_ | Good morning, chandan_kumar | 07:01 |
| Daisy_ | Nice to see you here. | 07:01 |
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| chandan_kumar | :) | 07:01 |
| jpich | Hello! | 07:01 |
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| Daisy_ | I'm back. Network broken just now. | 07:03 |
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| Daisy_ | Let's start the meeting. | 07:03 |
| Daisy_ | #startmeeting OpenStack I18n Meeting | 07:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 3 07:03:30 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Daisy_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 07:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 07:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n Meeting)" | 07:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_i18n_meeting' | 07:03 |
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| Daisy_ | Hello, everybody. I have to check again who are around. Just now my network is broken. I don't know if I missed somebody. | 07:04 |
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| Daisy_ | chandan_kumar: I know you are there. | 07:04 |
| jpich | Hi o/ | 07:04 |
| chandan_kumar | yes | 07:04 |
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| Daisy_ | Good morning, jpich | 07:04 |
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| Daisy_ | Good. We have three people. :) | 07:05 |
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| Daisy_ | First, let's have a discussion about how to encourage more people to join IRC meeting. :) | 07:05 |
| epico | hi | 07:05 |
| Daisy_ | Hi, epico. | 07:05 |
| Fdot | Hi Daisy_ | 07:06 |
| Daisy_ | Hi, Fdot ! Nice to see you. | 07:06 |
| Fdot | Nice to see you too :) | 07:06 |
| jpich | Maybe trying different times? And sending reminders on the list one or two days before? | 07:06 |
| Daisy_ | Last time, on UTC 0000, there are only epico and me. | 07:07 |
| Fdot | jpich: +1 ;) | 07:07 |
| epico | Daisy_, yeah | 07:07 |
| Daisy_ | Fdot, are you OK with this time slot? | 07:07 |
| Fdot | reminder could be a good idea | 07:07 |
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| Fdot | it is a little bit early for me :) | 07:07 |
| jpich | The wiki page at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/I18nTeamMeeting also says "next meeting on November 21st", maybe people think the meeting is not happening anymore | 07:07 |
| Fdot | 30 minutes should be better | 07:07 |
| Daisy_ | Good suggestion. | 07:07 |
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| jpich | This time slot is a bit early for me too, but I can't make 0000UTC at all so it's still better :) | 07:07 |
| Daisy_ | Fdot, do you mean we have only 30 minutes meeting? | 07:08 |
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| Fdot | sorry forgot a word :D | 07:08 |
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| Fdot | 30 minutes later could be better :D | 07:08 |
| Daisy_ | I know, 0000UTC is not avaialbe for Fdot, and jpich. | 07:08 |
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| Daisy_ | ok. No problem for me. | 07:08 |
| Daisy_ | I can arrange it one hour later. | 07:08 |
| Daisy_ | We have three suggestions: update the wiki page, send to ML early to remind, move this time slot one hour later. | 07:09 |
| Daisy_ | How do you think the topics? | 07:09 |
| Daisy_ | How can we find more interesting topics? | 07:10 |
| Fdot | ok for me :) | 07:10 |
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| Daisy_ | I think there are some topics we can discuss in ML. | 07:10 |
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| Daisy_ | What do Horizon team usually do, jpich? | 07:11 |
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| Daisy_ | I mean, about to choose topics to discuss in the IRC other than ML. | 07:11 |
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| jpich | Daisy_: We don't always have an agenda, but people often come with questions. Maybe it's not totally clear to the i18n team members that it's ok to come to the meeting to ask questions and solve problems together, too? (people might not be aware of this) | 07:12 |
| jpich | Including an "Open Discussion" item in the agenda | 07:12 |
| jpich | We also usually start the meeting with a status report from the meeting chair to remind of the important dates | 07:12 |
| jpich | and celebrate what we've accomplished so far | 07:13 |
| jpich | Good for team spirit :-) | 07:13 |
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| Daisy_ | Yes. I feel the IRC meeting is good for my spirit too. It's so nice to talk with you in IRC meeting. | 07:13 |
| jpich | Status is very helpful when coming close to milestones, feature freeze, RC and releases | 07:13 |
| Daisy_ | OK. then we have another suggestion: include "open discussion" and encourage people to come with questions. | 07:14 |
| Daisy_ | Yes. | 07:14 |
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| jpich | Daisy_: Agreed :) The translation channel doesn't have a lot of people so there are not many other opportunities for discussing directly | 07:14 |
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| Daisy_ | Nice suggestion, jpich. | 07:14 |
| Daisy_ | Any others? | 07:14 |
| Daisy_ | If no, I will give you a status update about our translation. | 07:15 |
| Fdot | no others suggestion for me ;) | 07:15 |
| Daisy_ | Thanks, Fdot. | 07:16 |
| Daisy_ | Now status update. | 07:16 |
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| Daisy_ | Horizon RC1 is shipped. Now we have 12 languages completed the translation. | 07:16 |
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| Daisy_ | Among 12 langauges, German is new to Horizon release. | 07:17 |
| Daisy_ | Russian and Serbian are hurry up their progress. I think Russian could finish it on time. Not sure of Serbian. | 07:17 |
| Daisy_ | Installation guide publishing is under progress. This week, we are solving a Korean font issue. | 07:17 |
| Daisy_ | If you want to add your language font , please inform me. | 07:18 |
| Daisy_ | Fdot, does French have special font? | 07:18 |
| Daisy_ | The font is prepared for the publish of translated documents. | 07:19 |
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| Fdot | Daisy_: no :) | 07:19 |
| Fdot | we are using standard fonts | 07:19 |
| Daisy_ | The maven tool only supports a few languages, but it allow us to use local languages. So we need to download font files to local sever. | 07:19 |
| Daisy_ | OK. | 07:19 |
| Daisy_ | chandan_kumar: does your language have special fonts? | 07:20 |
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| Daisy_ | Fdot, I'm going to publish the translated installation guide. We have Japanese and Korean version. Chinese version and German version are under processing. | 07:20 |
| jpich | About Horizon RC1, note that the translations didn't make it into RC1 but will be part of RC2. amotoki is working with david-lyle, the Horizon PTL to make sure the translation patch merges on time. The current plan is to post the translation update on Monday 0000UTC | 07:21 |
| Daisy_ | I remember French team have asked a company's help to do the translation. | 07:21 |
| Daisy_ | Thank you for the update, jpich. | 07:21 |
| Fdot | Daisy_: yes with Cloudwatt | 07:21 |
| doron | sysinfo | 07:21 |
| doron | Sysinfo for 'doron-laptop2': Linux 3.12.6-gentoo running KDE Development Platform 4.11.5, CPU: Intel(R) Core i7-3520M CPU @ 2.90GHz at 2901 MHz (5786 bogomips), HD: 100/428GB, RAM: 10493/11701MB, 196 proc's, 20.20d up | 07:21 |
| Daisy_ | Fdot, is it possible to publish some French documents? | 07:21 |
| Daisy_ | to the docs. openstack.org? | 07:21 |
| Fdot | but because of the havana doc refactoring we have lost most of the works done | 07:22 |
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| Fdot | so unfortunatly no :( | 07:22 |
| Daisy_ | understand. | 07:22 |
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| Daisy_ | ok. No problem. When you are ready, let me know. | 07:22 |
| Fdot | but there is still employee from µCloudwatt working on translation | 07:22 |
| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, we have devanagari fonts | 07:22 |
| Fdot | on the havana translation and the common part for the manual | 07:23 |
| Daisy_ | I know you are not using PO files. It's difficult to import to Transifex. | 07:23 |
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| Daisy_ | chandan_kumar: Got it. I think, when it's time to publish documents in your language, we need to add this font to the local server. | 07:24 |
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| Daisy_ | Fdot, when you are ready, let me know. Let's figure out together about how to publish the translations, even we don't have PO and we don't use Transifex. | 07:25 |
| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, ok, | 07:25 |
| Fdot | Daisy_: the translation has been done last august and there is too many difference now | 07:25 |
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| Fdot | what we do now | 07:26 |
| Fdot | we translate directly in transifex and use the work done when we found a part which didn't change | 07:26 |
| Daisy_ | What file format do you use to translate? | 07:26 |
| Fdot | the translation has been done into word documents | 07:26 |
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| Daisy_ | It's hard. Does the translation have only French or have one paragraph French followed with one paragraph English ? | 07:27 |
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| Fdot | under the docs documents ? | 07:28 |
| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, Fdot you can use Lokalize for offline translation. <http://userbase.kde.org/Lokalize > | 07:28 |
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| Fdot | chandan_kumar: you can import word document ? | 07:29 |
| chandan_kumar | Fdot, never tried | 07:29 |
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| Fdot | I am going to test :) | 07:29 |
| Fdot | thanks a lot for the suggestion | 07:29 |
| Daisy_ | Yes, Fdot. Usually, when I translate English into Chinese in words, I will add a new paragraph after an English paragraph and input Chinese translation. Then I move to another paragraph. | 07:30 |
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| Daisy_ | Great, chandan_kumar | 07:30 |
| Fdot | ok i am going to test :) | 07:31 |
| Daisy_ | chandan_kumar opened another topic I'm going to mention. | 07:31 |
| Daisy_ | The translation tool ! | 07:31 |
| Daisy_ | Now we are using Transifex. | 07:31 |
| Daisy_ | But there are some voices to leave Transifex within OpenStack community. | 07:32 |
| Daisy_ | I don't hear such voices from our translators. | 07:32 |
| chandan_kumar | There are lots of tools, like poedit, gtranslator, vitraal. | 07:32 |
| chandan_kumar | but in these Lokalize is best one | 07:32 |
| epico | and zanata. | 07:33 |
| Fdot | transifex is good for team working | 07:33 |
| Daisy_ | The openstack-infra hopes to host a translation platform for Openstack translation, because Transifex has closed its source codes. | 07:33 |
| epico | https://translate.zanata.org/zanata/ | 07:33 |
| Fdot | and collaborating | 07:33 |
| chandan_kumar | Transifex is the best translation tool as right now | 07:33 |
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| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, Zanata is the next one | 07:33 |
| epico | chandan_kumar, +1 ! | 07:34 |
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| Daisy_ | we need to do an evaluation. | 07:34 |
| Daisy_ | :) | 07:34 |
| Daisy_ | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqevw3Q-ErDUdFgzT3VNVXQxd095bFgzODRmajJDeVE&usp=drive_web#gid=0 | 07:34 |
| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, we have done an evaluation earlier on tools | 07:34 |
| Fdot | with transifex it is now possible to connect with translation services like textmaster | 07:34 |
| Daisy_ | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjlcroGaTsVpdG85eWhqSVEwU19TNHFZQTJYTzZxR1E&usp=drive_web#gid=0 | 07:34 |
| Fdot | which is useful for translation or review | 07:34 |
| Daisy_ | There are some concerns that sometimes Transifex would not open its services freely. | 07:35 |
| Daisy_ | Transifex would become an commercial software. | 07:35 |
| Daisy_ | Nobody knows when it would happen, just worry about it. | 07:35 |
| Daisy_ | Pootle, Zanata and translatewiki, we have compared these three tools. | 07:36 |
| Daisy_ | 6 month ago. | 07:36 |
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| Daisy_ | During the last summit, there was no conclusion that whether we move away from Transifex and which new tool we should move to. | 07:37 |
| chandan_kumar | lots of development has been already done with these tools | 07:37 |
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| Daisy_ | Yes, chandan_kumar | 07:37 |
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| Daisy_ | We should review these tools again. | 07:37 |
| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, you have taken my words :) | 07:37 |
| Daisy_ | :) | 07:37 |
| Daisy_ | I need help ! | 07:38 |
| Daisy_ | I think, we could brainstorming tool candidates. | 07:38 |
| Daisy_ | Then we brainstorm the requirements we want. | 07:38 |
| Daisy_ | Then we do an evaluation. | 07:39 |
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| Daisy_ | Maybe we come up with a list of tool candidates today. | 07:39 |
| Daisy_ | We may not want a long list. Let's brainstorm the best open source tools for translation. | 07:40 |
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| Daisy_ | Pootle, Zanata and translatewiki. Anything else? | 07:40 |
| Daisy_ | There are so quiet... | 07:42 |
| chandan_kumar | i think only 3 tools are available in open Source | 07:42 |
| Daisy_ | ok. chandan_kumar | 07:42 |
| Daisy_ | As to translation tools, you know more than me. | 07:42 |
| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, yes , i can provide a list of available tools for translation | 07:43 |
| Daisy_ | chandan_kumar, among these three tools, which one are you familiar with? | 07:43 |
| Daisy_ | chandan_kumar, I need open source translation tools. | 07:43 |
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| Daisy_ | If still not open source, we have no reason to move away from Transifex. | 07:44 |
| chandan_kumar | i am familiar with Pootle, my friends are familiar with zanata and translatewiki.net | 07:44 |
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| chandan_kumar | sorry | 07:44 |
| * Fdot is agree with Daisy_ | 07:44 | |
| chandan_kumar | i am familar with Lokalize | 07:44 |
| epico | Daisy_, https://github.com/zanata/ | 07:45 |
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| Daisy_ | http://translate-dev.openstack.org/ | 07:45 |
| Daisy_ | The infrastructure team has helped to set up a Pootle test website. | 07:45 |
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| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, let us sett up all the three instances and use it and then compare ? | 07:46 |
| chandan_kumar | instance = translation tool | 07:46 |
| Daisy_ | we have pootle now. I think, Zanata has on line version. Mediawiki, the wiki used by openstack community, supports translate wiki. | 07:46 |
| Daisy_ | First, let's revise the feature lists we want. | 07:47 |
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| Daisy_ | I will send a mail to ML, and welcome all of the inputs. | 07:47 |
| Daisy_ | Then we will have people to do the evaluation. | 07:48 |
| Daisy_ | OK, friends. | 07:48 |
| chandan_kumar | Fdot, Zanata has a feature to import word document for translation | 07:49 |
| epico | chandan_kumar, cool | 07:49 |
| Daisy_ | I have done all of my words. | 07:49 |
| Fdot | chandan_kumar: cool :) I have to test it too! | 07:50 |
| Daisy_ | now it's for open discussions. | 07:50 |
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| Daisy_ | If no, we will close the meeting now. | 07:51 |
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| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, if i complete hindi translation by monday will it get published?\ | 07:51 |
| Daisy_ | Sure, chandan_kumar | 07:51 |
| Daisy_ | wait, wait | 07:51 |
| chandan_kumar | Daisy_, Thanks. :) | 07:51 |
| Daisy_ | you mean, horizon or installation guide? | 07:52 |
| chandan_kumar | horizon | 07:52 |
| Daisy_ | Then I think you have to do it as early as possible. | 07:52 |
| epico | Daisy_, how about to use "#topic" command in meeting? | 07:52 |
| Daisy_ | The patch for translation update will be prepared at Monday 0000UTC | 07:52 |
| Daisy_ | Thank you for reminder, epico. I forgot. | 07:53 |
| epico | Daisy_, welcome | 07:53 |
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| Daisy_ | chandan_kumar: could you finish the translation by Monday 0000UTC? | 07:53 |
| chandan_kumar | yes | 07:53 |
| Daisy_ | Great ! | 07:54 |
| Daisy_ | I will let Horizon team know about it. | 07:54 |
| chandan_kumar | ok | 07:54 |
| chandan_kumar | Thanks :) | 07:54 |
| Daisy_ | Great, friends. | 07:55 |
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| Daisy_ | I will close the meeting. More discussions, let's go to our channel #openstack-translation | 07:55 |
| Daisy_ | Thank you for attending. | 07:55 |
| Daisy_ | Thank you for getting up early. | 07:55 |
| Daisy_ | Next time, the meeting will be an hour later. | 07:56 |
| Daisy_ | #endmeeting | 07:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 07:56 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 3 07:56:18 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 07:56 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_i18n_meeting/2014/openstack_i18n_meeting.2014-04-03-07.03.html | 07:56 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_i18n_meeting/2014/openstack_i18n_meeting.2014-04-03-07.03.txt | 07:56 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_i18n_meeting/2014/openstack_i18n_meeting.2014-04-03-07.03.log.html | 07:56 |
| jpich | Thanks! | 07:56 |
| epico | thanks | 07:56 |
| chandan_kumar | Thanks! | 07:56 |
| Fdot | thanks ! | 07:57 |
| Daisy_ | :) | 07:57 |
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| Fdot | have a good day/night ;) | 07:57 |
| Daisy_ | Have a nice day, Fdot ! | 07:57 |
| Fdot | Daisy_: thanks :) | 07:57 |
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| enikanorov_ | #startmeeting neutron lbaas | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 3 14:00:19 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is enikanorov_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_lbaas' | 14:00 |
| enikanorov_ | hi everyone | 14:00 |
| sbalukoff1 | Hello! | 14:00 |
| sballe | morning :-) | 14:00 |
| blogan | hi | 14:00 |
| vjay | Hi | 14:00 |
| ptoohill | hello | 14:00 |
| tvardeman | morning | 14:00 |
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| obondarev | hi all | 14:00 |
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| Subha | hi | 14:00 |
| edhall | hi | 14:00 |
| aburaschi | Hi | 14:00 |
| retr0h | hi | 14:01 |
| jorgem | hello | 14:01 |
| evgenyf | hi | 14:01 |
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| enikanorov_ | glad to see lots of folks here | 14:01 |
| marios | hi all | 14:01 |
| enikanorov_ | let's start with one of the action items from the previous meeting | 14:01 |
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| enikanorov_ | which was collecting cloud operator's data on demanded lb features | 14:02 |
| enikanorov_ | i've created a wiki page, but it seems that it's not the best way of collecting such kind of data | 14:02 |
| enikanorov_ | so please lets move to google spreadsheet: | 14:02 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: Yeah the google spreadsheet looks better | 14:02 |
| sbalukoff | Sounds good. | 14:02 |
| retr0h | etherpad? | 14:02 |
| enikanorov_ | #link https://docs.google.com/a/mirantis.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar1FuMFYRhgadDVXZ25NM2NfbGtLTkR0TDFNUWJQUWc#gid=0 | 14:03 |
| edhall | good idea | 14:03 |
| enikanorov_ | it's quite empty at the moment, so please ... | 14:03 |
| sballe | How do you want us to fill it in? | 14:03 |
| jorgem | enikanorov_: I added stuff to the requirements page but I'll move it over after the meeting | 14:03 |
| sballe | I added stuff to the requirement page too | 14:03 |
| sbalukoff | Would you like us to fill out the first column with features we use? And does it make sense to collect data on features already delivered (eg. "Load balance HTTP connections")? | 14:04 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: cool | 14:04 |
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| enikanorov_ | sbalukoff: i think the main idea to know what is demanded from the features that are not there (in lbaas) | 14:04 |
| rm_work|away | sbalukoff: I would assume data on ALL features, delivered or not, would be required for a big picture view | 14:04 |
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| enikanorov_ | and since lbaas is very basic right now | 14:05 |
| sbalukoff | Ok. | 14:05 |
| enikanorov_ | it would be almost al features possible | 14:05 |
| enikanorov_ | *all | 14:05 |
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| blogan | enikanorov: do you know what the line is between what features we expect neutron lbaas to have and what features an orchestration layer should provide? (i.e.: HA could be provided by the orchestration layer, but not by the driver) | 14:06 |
| tvardeman | I would like to see stats on features already delivered. | 14:06 |
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| jorgem | The groups I have data for so far are: protocol utilization, algorithm utilization, health monitoring utilization, connection logging utilization, ssl term utilization, and content caching utilization | 14:06 |
| samuelbercovici | to clarify, you want to move all items from https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Neutron/LBaaS/requirements to this spreadsheet? | 14:06 |
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| enikanorov_ | blogan: HA will (and must) be provided by the driver | 14:06 |
| blogan | enikanorov: good, thank you | 14:06 |
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| rm_work | samuelbercovici: i assume just stats? | 14:06 |
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| enikanorov_ | HA is essential feature, pushing it on orchestration level means that we are making user to configure it | 14:07 |
| jorgem | samuelbercovici: I was just going to move the operator data | 14:07 |
| sballe | enikanorov_, can we revisit the HA by the driver decision? This is a limitation and then we have to implement the same thing for each driver | 14:07 |
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| enikanorov_ | sballe: 'same thing for each driver' is a code reuse issue. drivers actually may want to implement it differently | 14:08 |
| samuelbercovici | jorgem: since there is large overlap between tenant and operator, does it make sense to list an item once and then mark whether it relates to tenant, operator or both? | 14:08 |
| sbalukoff | sballe: I think some drivers can return a "feature not available" error or something similar for HA configurations which don't work with them? | 14:08 |
| jorgem | samuelbercovici: In terms of feature usage? | 14:08 |
| sbalukoff | So not every driver needs to deliver the same kind of HA. | 14:08 |
| samuelbercovici | jorgem: probably my confusion. the excell is only for operator feature statsitics? | 14:09 |
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| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: I would think the spreadsheet is for all features-- but yes, it probably does make sense to distinguish between user and operator features. | 14:09 |
| samuelbercovici | btw, to make sure we are clear, does operator mean cloud-operator or tenant-operator? I assume cloud-operator | 14:09 |
| sbalukoff | Though, I think the requirements page does this already, too. | 14:10 |
| sballe | enikanorov_, so are you saying that if we need to use a pool of standby servers it needs to be part of the driver? | 14:10 |
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| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: cloud op | 14:10 |
| jorgem | samuelbercovici: Correct. Some features may not be as easy to gather stats on. However, stuff like what percentage of load balancers use SSL term vs not. | 14:10 |
| vjay | Yes, HA should be flexible. Today we have code abstracted out of HA proxy agent to be used by other drivers. A similar thing could still happen for HA. But it should be possible for implement driver to implement it in the way it wants. | 14:10 |
| enikanorov_ | sballe: yes. | 14:10 |
| edhall | There is certainly overlap between the two | 14:10 |
| aveiga | what about operators that aren't at liberty to share usage data? | 14:10 |
| blogan | sballe: i think that makes the most sense right now | 14:10 |
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| enikanorov_ | sballe: if this will be something that is used outside single driver - we can push it to some common place in the code tree so other drivers can reuse it | 14:11 |
| sbalukoff | aveiga: We'll have to make decisions without those operators' data, then. :/ | 14:11 |
| samuelbercovici | sballe: doe you mean HA proxy is highly available or the load balanced application is highly available? | 14:11 |
| jorgem | aveiga: This is why we are using relative data not finite numbers | 14:11 |
| edhall | Since we're essentially a private cloud, "users" are typically "operators" | 14:11 |
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| sballe | blogan, maybe short term. I can just see that we should be able to provide the framework at the plug-in level to support this for any sw LB. Maybe introducing the notion of an admin API so we cabn manage the LB service itself | 14:12 |
| aburaschi | Do we already have a preferred 'common place' for common code? | 14:12 |
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| samuelbercovici | sballe: Is "pool of standby servers" related to the servers available to host AH proxy or the application servers load balanced by LBaaS | 14:13 |
| sballe | samuelbercovici, I would like the LB service to be resilient | 14:13 |
| jorgem | aveiga: We are trying to use data to back up requirement priorities. So if an operator really wants X feature but can't back it up with data then a decision will have to be made without it…which will be harder to accomplish than if the data is present. | 14:13 |
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| samuelbercovici | sballe: ok thanks | 14:13 |
| sballe | the pool is used to make the LBs resilient | 14:13 |
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| sballe | samuelbercovici, it is really a pool of standby LBs | 14:14 |
| jorgem | aveiga: Also, new features will most likely not have data so those will be more open to debate. | 14:14 |
| enikanorov_ | sballe: until it's something specific to particular driver - it should be implemented there. There could be admin API however to manage that pool | 14:14 |
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| sballe | enikanorov_, Agreed | 14:14 |
| aveiga | jorgem: thanks for the clarification. I'm trying to get clearance to share, but I can't as of yet | 14:14 |
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| jorgem | aveiga: No worries, so did I :) | 14:15 |
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| enikanorov_ | ok, if we're done with discussing usage data/requirements, i'd like to move to the other topic | 14:15 |
| samuelbercovici | enikanorov_: Assuming this is HA proxy only, than the API is something available from "HA proxy" management system | 14:15 |
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| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: initially we have a proposal that any driver that needs something specific for operator, could expose API | 14:16 |
| enikanorov_ | we had many proposals at icehouse summit, you know :) | 14:16 |
| blogan | doesn't that require an extension like behavior for neutron lbaas? | 14:16 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: it does, and even a little bit more flexible than that | 14:16 |
| blogan | i mean an extension to the neutron lbaas extension | 14:16 |
| enikanorov_ | it's not extension on extension, btw | 14:17 |
| blogan | recursive extensions! | 14:17 |
| samuelbercovici | enikanorov_: if this is driver specific, it can be available directly from the driver. we can discuss this in ML. | 14:17 |
| enikanorov_ | well, we don't have the ability to do 'available directly from the driver' | 14:17 |
| enikanorov_ | in fact, we already have such admin API | 14:17 |
| enikanorov_ | which is agent scheduling for haproxy | 14:17 |
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| enikanorov_ | it's embedded into the plugin itself | 14:18 |
| enikanorov_ | which is not good | 14:18 |
| samuelbercovici | enikanorov_: I agree on that | 14:18 |
| sballe | enikanorov_, so can we move it up sp it is a framework across all plug-ins? | 14:18 |
| enikanorov_ | that API could be exposed by haproxy driver, and not be the plugin | 14:18 |
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| enikanorov_ | sballe: yes, the initial proposal was like that. Btw, lbaas is not the only plugin that needs that | 14:19 |
| sballe | enikanorov_, agreed, | 14:19 |
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| sballe | enikanorov_, do you have a blueprint or so I can look at? | 14:19 |
| samuelbercovici | sballe: the operator API, UI and capabilities that each vendor provides are difficult to harmonize | 14:19 |
| enikanorov_ | sballe: yes, we do. i'll find it shortly | 14:20 |
| sballe | enikanorov_, thx | 14:21 |
| enikanorov_ | ok, the next topic i'd like to discuss is API | 14:21 |
| enikanorov_ | we heard some claims that existing API is confusing/not user friendly | 14:22 |
| enikanorov_ | so i'd like to make some introduction on this topic first | 14:22 |
| jorgem | correct and mark mcclain agreed with that | 14:22 |
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| * sballe I agree too ;-) | 14:22 | |
| enikanorov_ | initially the API was made simplistic to account for the most basic features that every LB solution provides | 14:22 |
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| enikanorov_ | so there was some simplifications all around | 14:23 |
| enikanorov_ | one of the biggest simplification was that we made 'Pool' object - the root object | 14:23 |
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| samuelbercovici | it was also required to be made cli friendly | 14:23 |
| enikanorov_ | e.g. the object with which lb workflow starts | 14:23 |
| samuelbercovici | this resulted many 1st level objects | 14:23 |
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| enikanorov_ | 'cli-friedliness' is a must basically | 14:23 |
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| ptoohill | what does 'cli-friendliness' actually mean? | 14:24 |
| jorgem | enikanorov_: Since tenants use the API I think it needs to be catered torward their understanding of load balancing, not operators understanding though | 14:24 |
| enikanorov_ | ptoohill: it means that user should be able to operate the configuration on per-object basis | 14:24 |
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| ptoohill | ah, thank you | 14:24 |
| tvardeman | +1 jorgem | 14:25 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: well, i agree, the problem is that API is made by mortals (e.g. us) :D | 14:25 |
| samuelbercovici | it also means, that cli commands should be reasonably short | 14:25 |
| sballe | can we ask a different question? and go top down. What does user friendly mean? | 14:25 |
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| enikanorov_ | sballe: that's a great question | 14:25 |
| enikanorov_ | and that's why i'd like to hear from you | 14:25 |
| sballe | and then figure out if it is even compatible with the model we have now? | 14:25 |
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| jorgem | sballe: I'll give it a shot... | 14:25 |
| sballe | jorgem, ok | 14:26 |
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| enikanorov_ | jorgem: please | 14:26 |
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| ptoohill | so, in that case, a single populated object (one call, not many) is not cli-friendly? | 14:27 |
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| jorgem | sballe: From our perspective we have a bunch of tenants that know they need load balancing but don't exactly understand networking at a low level. The goal for us is to make simple enough so that a first time web developer (for example) can configure their own lb but have the features that a power user would need as well. | 14:27 |
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| german_ | +1 | 14:27 |
| enikanorov_ | ptoohill: single call could be an extra, but not the whole API | 14:27 |
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| aburaschi | +1 | 14:27 |
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| ptoohill | well of course, but to have all the features contained in the single object sounds friendly to me | 14:28 |
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| jorgem | jorgem: That's kind of it in a nutshell. ML might be better for this though | 14:28 |
| ptoohill | then being able to modify those individually | 14:28 |
| enikanorov_ | single call has one huuuuge issue | 14:28 |
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| tvardeman | ptoohill: maybe not "all" but "many" | 14:28 |
| sbalukoff | In other words, make the API have good defaults so a novice user can configure services, but provide enough optional arguments to a power user isn't hindered. | 14:28 |
| sballe | jorgem, +1 very similar to our usecase. We also want the user not to worry about managing the LB so it needs to self-manage. | 14:28 |
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| jorgem | We spent a lot of time on the Atlas API with this in mind. | 14:28 |
| aburaschi | Would that also mean a bunch of predefined default settings that suit the purpose of the lb? | 14:28 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: +1, that's what I've been trying to get across -- sane defaults | 14:28 |
| enikanorov_ | ok, let me answer these | 14:29 |
| ptoohill | +1 sbalukoff | 14:29 |
| jorgem | BTW our customers love our API in comparison to AWS (they actually state this to us) | 14:29 |
| crc32 | enikanorov_: It would be hard to do everything in one call if we don't have a lb object to pass in to the api complete with backend nodes. | 14:29 |
| enikanorov_ | 1. neutron API is quite low-level. it's not an orchestration level | 14:29 |
| sballe | I agree that the Atlas API is a starting point and is the reason that we built LIbra using this API. | 14:29 |
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| enikanorov_ | 2. single call-api is not as simple as it seems | 14:29 |
| jorgem | however, it needs work to accomodate new items such as pools | 14:29 |
| aburaschi | sballukoff: +1 | 14:29 |
| enikanorov_ | we already do have single call API which is Heat | 14:29 |
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| enikanorov_ | and it has one important feature | 14:30 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: that is my question in a nutshell -- what do we delegate to Heat and what is actually done in N-LBaaS API? | 14:30 |
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| enikanorov_ | id requires you to use it's own definition language | 14:30 |
| enikanorov_ | *it | 14:30 |
| crc32 | enikanorov_: Heat is a seperate product is it not? Has the desision to pass off everything involving a single call API already getting stamped "We have heat for that"? | 14:30 |
| enikanorov_ | and the definition language is required (generally) to work with a graph of objects in a single call | 14:31 |
| enikanorov_ | crc32: Heat is separate orchestration project | 14:31 |
| iwamoto | neutron should provide minimal usability without heat. | 14:31 |
| rm_work | So, Heat is used to create whole LB configs as a Fire-and-forget sort of thing, and then the user goes and tweaks the LBs in the N-LBaaS API from then on? | 14:32 |
| enikanorov_ | crc32: the reason to not having single call is technical, not only because 'Heat already has that'. but that as well | 14:32 |
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| jorgem | orchestrating the configuration of a lb is one thing. Orchestrating the creation/deletion of many lbs is another | 14:32 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: that's one of the options | 14:32 |
| sballe | jorgem, +1 | 14:32 |
| rm_work | jorgem: +1 | 14:32 |
| sbalukoff | Regarding orchestration, could someone clarify this for me? Shouldn't the API have all the features exposed in it that an orchestration layer would use (regardless of whether it's Heat or something else-- like something a tenant might home grow)? In other words, there shouldn't be features that are *only* available in Heat, right? | 14:32 |
| rm_work | I don't think Heat is the place to orchestrate the creation of a single LB | 14:33 |
| sbalukoff | (That would require Heat to manipulate things that aren't in the API, right?) | 14:33 |
| aveiga | sbalukoff: +1 | 14:33 |
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| tvardeman | sbalukoff: + 1 | 14:33 |
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| sballe | sbalukoff, +1 | 14:33 |
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| tvardeman | enikanorov_: I think one thing to keep in mind is we're not talking about ease of implementation for one call, we're talking about the user-experience. | 14:34 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: so LBaaS API is not fo orchestraction, but for fine grained conrtol over load balancing function | 14:34 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: I don't think he's saying that all of the features wouldn't be exposed, just that the "single-call" approach would be best done in Heat (define the LB in Heat's language, and have Heat do the 3-4 calls necessary for creation) | 14:34 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: Correct, thus neutron lbaas API exposes everything for managing individual lbs. Heat would be used to manage lbs in concert with other items such as nova (for example autoscaling) | 14:34 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: Ok, yes, I can get behind that. :) | 14:34 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: yeah, but I don't think "create one full LB" falls into "orchestration" | 14:34 |
| enikanorov_ | tvardeman: one call doesn't allow you to create rich configuration unless you introduce template language like in heat | 14:35 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: +1 | 14:35 |
| aveiga | shouldn't "one call" be enough to instantiate a ddefault LB though? | 14:35 |
| sballe | jorgem, I agree, | 14:35 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: it does if you have sane defaults, aka what sbalukoff was saying earlier | 14:35 |
| samuelbercovici | rm_work: I think the term LB is oveloaded | 14:35 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: not really | 14:35 |
| crc32 | enikanorov_: If nuetron/lbaas is only allowing manipulation of simple primitive objects then I get the feeling our product managers are going to bring up the "Our customers want you to wrap up the api into something simular to the atlas api. I can already hear it now. | 14:35 |
| enikanorov_ | it's not about defaults | 14:35 |
| blogan_ | so to create a load balancer a user will instead go through Heat and not Load Balancing as a Service? how is that not confusing to a user? | 14:35 |
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| marios | rm_work: but it could do... eg you have a heat template defining your 2/3 web servers and the single load balancer for them.heat brings it all up | 14:35 |
| enikanorov_ | it's about ability to reference different objects within the configuration | 14:36 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: Yep, I think we're confusing terms again here. | 14:36 |
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| enikanorov_ | the thing is that we don't have a single example of such APIs yet | 14:36 |
| rm_work | marios: yeah, I can see what you mean there… in that case it's part of a greater whole | 14:36 |
| enikanorov_ | none of the lbaas APIs available provides features set we desire | 14:36 |
| edhall | so, the API needs to both support (1) simple user interactions and (2) straightforward automation of complex operations. Those are two sometimeds conflicting goals... | 14:36 |
| jorgem | enikanorov_: Our current API does allow us to create a rich configuration in one call. However, you can also make several calls to accomplish the same thing. | 14:36 |
| jorgem | enikanorov_: That's one of the joys of an asynchronous API | 14:36 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: can you give a link to API reference? | 14:37 |
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| jorgem | sure one sec | 14:37 |
| enikanorov_ | and it's not about asyncness | 14:37 |
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| jorgem | #linkhttp://docs.rackspace.com/loadbalancers/api/v1.0/clb-devguide/content/Create_Load_Balancer-d1e1635.html | 14:37 |
| rm_work | I still believe it comes back to sane defaults, and having a high level object that can be used to define everything necessary to get the LB spun up | 14:37 |
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| enikanorov_ | jorgem: yesh, i've seen this page | 14:38 |
| enikanorov_ | sorry, this API doesn't fit our requirements | 14:38 |
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| jorgem | enikanorov_: That's for our current API. The only item is that SSL term must be made in a separate call. Other than that you can add all config in one POST call | 14:38 |
| enikanorov_ | because it doesn't support multiple pools | 14:38 |
| rm_work | I mean, what "<X>aaS" product doesn't have <X> as a high level object... | 14:38 |
| enikanorov_ | (needed for L7) | 14:38 |
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| blogan_ | enikanorov: that can easily be accomplished with that api though | 14:38 |
| jorgem | enikanorov_: Right I was just stating that one call can take in a rich config, not necesarily to use this API | 14:38 |
| german_ | and here is the libra API for another example: http://api-docs.test.devex.uswest.hpcloud.net/api/lbaas/ | 14:38 |
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| rm_work | enikanorov_: I think that could be solved… it only doesn't support that because it was never a req | 14:38 |
| blogan_ | enikanorov: i mean with modification | 14:39 |
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| crc32 | I get the whole "provide primitives not solutions" principle but this api is already very high level and it a logical loadbalancing model has already worked well for us at rackspace. | 14:39 |
| sballe | enikanorov_, we can tweek the APIs to support the more advnaced features | 14:39 |
| tvardeman | enikanorov_: I think the point to take from that is the API request structure, not to mock the current Neutron LBaaS after this api. | 14:39 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: i'm saying that will not be rich enough... i think if we are to go fo a single call - we need to support all features | 14:39 |
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| enikanorov_ | sballe: we can. it would be Heat API | 14:39 |
| jorgem | enikanorov_: correct and I think this can be accomplished | 14:40 |
| sballe | crc32, +1 same for us. the high level API really works well | 14:40 |
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| ptoohill | 'here, here' | 14:40 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: this can be accomplished, but it's strongly an 'extra' feature | 14:40 |
| crc32 | enikamprov_: Punting this off to heat is going to complicate something that belongs in the core api. | 14:40 |
| jorgem | perhaps ML discussion so we can get in our points? | 14:40 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: well, i don't know if there is a specific reason to not do all of the 90% use-case features in one call, and have the rest in subsequent calls on an already "UP" loadbalancer | 14:40 |
| german_ | +1 | 14:40 |
| german_ | I like the idea of being able to tweak | 14:40 |
| enikanorov_ | crc32: i'm not saying 'putting this off to heat', i'm saying that in order to satisfy our requirements, we need to make the same kind of API as Heat has | 14:41 |
| sbalukoff | sballe, jorgem, crc32: Do your organizations use an orchestration layer? Maybe the reason for high-level API is because no such beast exists in your environments? | 14:41 |
| tvardeman | +1 rm_work | 14:41 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: Yes we do | 14:41 |
| blogan_ | i just dont see how passing off the creation of a load balancer to another product is not confusing to a user | 14:41 |
| marios | enikanorov_: do you mean in terms of passing in the required configuration + options (ala heat templates) | 14:41 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: Autoscaling is one for example | 14:41 |
| rm_work | one of the reasons we are getting all of the use-case statistics together I think is so we can focus on coding for the 95% not the 5% | 14:41 |
| samuelbercovici | to clarify, do any of the Rackspace, HP cloud, other , users use cli calls? | 14:41 |
| sballe | blogan_, +1 I totally agree | 14:42 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: Ok, so you don't force your users to use orchestration for high-level calls, then? | 14:42 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: no specific reason, other than we are focused on particular objects and fine-grained management, single call mabe added to API as an extra | 14:42 |
| rm_work | not that we can't allow the 5% to do their thing, but it shouldn't be the main focus for the API as far as "ease of use" | 14:42 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: We do not | 14:42 |
| enikanorov_ | marios: yes, it must be a template. | 14:42 |
| sbalukoff | Got it. | 14:42 |
| samuelbercovici | Do he Rackspace, HP cloud, other , users use cli calls? | 14:42 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: Rackspace has a CLB CLI | 14:42 |
| sbalukoff | Again, many ways to skin the cat, I guess. | 14:42 |
| crc32 | sbalukoff: Not traditionally. An orchastration layer was added later on for customers that wanted auto scalling built in. But know one uses the orchistration api. The control panel uses it (Since they are UI developers) but I'm not aware of any actual end users using the API. | 14:42 |
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| jorgem | sbalukoff: Another example of orcestration is when tenants are marked as delinquent and we need to remove their instances across all products. | 14:43 |
| marios | enikanorov_: to be clear, the 'single call api' - is this 'in addition to' or 'instead of' the current API? | 14:43 |
| samuelbercovici | rm_work: but is it wildly used? | 14:43 |
| enikanorov_ | marios: an addition, only | 14:43 |
| marios | enikanorov_: ack, tx | 14:43 |
| sballe | samuelbercovici, we have a cli for Libra | 14:43 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: 90%+ of our LBs are created through webGUI I think :/ | 14:43 |
| enikanorov_ | marios: that comes from cli requirement and that follows neutron ideology | 14:43 |
| crc32 | marios: Yes but a single call api would need to beable to support a complex loadbalancer object that contains a list of backend nodes. | 14:44 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: if it's web gui - than user experience goes from gui, not lbaas API | 14:44 |
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| samuelbercovici | rm_work: in this case, what would it matter if there was a single page to configure LBaaS driving multiple LBaaS calls? | 14:44 |
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| german_ | samuelbercovici we have cli calls and some users have orchestration with ansible, chef, etc. | 14:44 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: yeah, i'm thinking maybe it's not worth arguing this, and we're just going to end up making a GUI layer anyway | 14:44 |
| crc32 | marios: So it seem odd to have 2 loadbalancer objects. One simple for the primitive operatiopns and one for a complete loadbalancer. | 14:44 |
| blogan_ | rm_work: horizon already does this methinks | 14:44 |
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| rm_work | ah, yes, horizon | 14:45 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: yes. anyway those who pass jsons, make it from scripts, not manually | 14:45 |
| german_ | crc32 +1 | 14:45 |
| jorgem | rm_work: Correct but we do have the power API users as well | 14:45 |
| samuelbercovici | german_: cli that has many many parameters and can encompass multiple lines is ususaly an issue with human users | 14:45 |
| marios | crc32: i imagined (and i *think* this is what enikanorov_ is suggesting) that the single call API would be kind of a wrapper around the individual API calls (hence the 'orchestration' bit) | 14:45 |
| rm_work | jorgem: yeah, but the power API users could probably handle a "no single-call creation" system | 14:45 |
| samuelbercovici | this is why I am asking whether users are using the cli in your environments | 14:45 |
| sballe | samuelbercovici, that why we need good defaults | 14:45 |
| enikanorov_ | marios: not really... | 14:45 |
| marios | crc32: so you'd still have the same lb object. just the creation is different? | 14:45 |
| rm_work | or would like it just as much, since they're the 5% i was talking about | 14:45 |
| german_ | yesm we also have horizon we just offer everyhting | 14:45 |
| marios | enikanorov_: ah, ok... | 14:45 |
| sbalukoff | Ultimately, a GUI is going to be using API on its back-end. :/ | 14:45 |
| enikanorov_ | marios: it can't be a wrapper, i'd say | 14:45 |
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| rm_work | samuelbercovici: I think that was a very good question | 14:46 |
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| blogan_ | enikanorov: another problem with having all these separate calls is the more you add, the longer it takes to actually spin up a load balancer, granted right now its negligible but in the future it may not be the case | 14:46 |
| crc32 | marios: Meaning another api that makes lower level apis? Or are we talking about a core api that has the notion of a complex loadbalancer object so that it can be constructed in one call. | 14:46 |
| jorgem | rm_work: Why are we stuck on "one single call"? The point is that lbs get configured. One call is nice to pass in all config but that does not preclude from having the option to use several calls. This is what we currently do. | 14:46 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: and now I am rethinking whether I honestly care what the API looks like or not, since 90% of my users won't ever see it, and the ones that do ARE the power users so I shouldn't be worried about them getting confused <_< | 14:46 |
| marios | crc32: well the latter i think | 14:46 |
| marios | crc32: but i am new here :) so ... | 14:47 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan_: just to clarify, i'm not against 'single call' API, but i'm agains making it a primary one | 14:47 |
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| german_ | rm_work, it;s the same for us | 14:47 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: +1 | 14:47 |
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| samuelbercovici | blogan: a way to configure a large object tree, would be to "batch" multiple calls together and then execute whne done | 14:47 |
| rm_work | jorgem: i don't think I am anymore <_< | 14:47 |
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| blogan_ | you mean the api batches them together? | 14:48 |
| samuelbercovici | this leaves the notion of multiple short api calls but allows to populate an object graph before actually amking a call | 14:48 |
| jorgem | Correct, I vote for having one call with the option to also use several calls. If you prefer one over the other then that's your choice. | 14:48 |
| german_ | I would assume the orchestration layer does | 14:48 |
| crc32 | enikanorov_: So I ask would this be in the same api (Single call api) or are you advocating an external api (Single call api) that makes multiple primitive lower api calls(The core). I'd like to see a single API that is compatible with both philosophies. | 14:48 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: one one call vs several calls: i think we also need to have consistent api. if we allow to update particular object, we need to allow to create it, e.g. have full set of particular calls | 14:48 |
| jorgem | It really shouldn't be hard to implement unless I am missing something | 14:48 |
| jorgem | enikanorov_: I agree. sub resources in a RESTful API are nice | 14:49 |
| enikanorov_ | crc32: i'm not against adding single call to lbaas API as an extra | 14:49 |
| samuelbercovici | blogan_: I will send some examples on ML | 14:49 |
| enikanorov_ | crc32: Heat has it's drawbacks | 14:49 |
| marios | enikanorov_: do we have any concrete suggestions on how the 'keep existing API and add the single-call LB create' looks like? or is this first time we are discussing? | 14:49 |
| blogan_ | samuelbercovici: ok thanks | 14:49 |
| enikanorov_ | crc32: but the thing is that single-call API would not be a simple json call | 14:49 |
| german_ | yeah, we need to keep it possible so users can use other orchestration software | 14:49 |
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| enikanorov_ | crc32: it will require template language | 14:49 |
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| sbalukoff | marios: For Juno, I'd argue for scrapping the existing API (or versioning it) and going with something entirely new that doesn't assume "pool" is the root object. :) | 14:50 |
| enikanorov_ | marios: the suggestion is to think of how to provide a graph of object in a configuration, that's the technical matter of the question | 14:50 |
| crc32 | enikanorov_: Can we add the ability for a single api to make multiple primitive calls as well as one single complex call. Thats what we are striving for four our end api users here at rackspace. | 14:50 |
| german_ | enikanorov_, as long as we only create one lb I am not sure we need some template language | 14:50 |
| tvardeman | sbalukoff: +1 | 14:50 |
| enikanorov_ | german_: that's not about 1 lb | 14:51 |
| crc32 | enikanorov_: I mean add it as a requirement that the api should support both. | 14:51 |
| enikanorov_ | german_: 1 lb may have several vips and several pools. thea are cross-referenced in configuration | 14:51 |
| samuelbercovici | can we do the following: 1. I will define two use cases a simple web based and c omplext multi poools, l7 use case. We can then discuss how those could look from an API perspective using 1. call per item 2. sincale call 3. "batch" call | 14:51 |
| sbalukoff | This implies a different work-flow for using advanced features, and I'm OK with this. :) | 14:51 |
| enikanorov_ | german_: that's what template language is for | 14:51 |
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| jorgem | Possible action item for new API proposols??? | 14:51 |
| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: good suggestion | 14:51 |
| sballe | samuelbercovici, +1 | 14:52 |
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| enikanorov_ | in fact we've already done that in recen obj model discussion :) | 14:52 |
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| retr0h | samuelbercovici: + | 14:52 |
| aburaschi | It sounds that every single call should consider sane defaults as a basis, right? | 14:52 |
| marios | samuelbercovici: jorgem: +1 i think we need to have specific 'thing' to discuss/approve/shoot down. | 14:52 |
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| enikanorov_ | aburaschi: what do you mean? | 14:52 |
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| sbalukoff | enikanorov_: In a round-about way, yes. I don't think we've actually discussed what the web GUI would look like. | 14:52 |
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| enikanorov_ | web gui is out of scope, definitely | 14:53 |
| sballe | marios, +1 | 14:53 |
| blogan_ | enikanorov: how are decisions made? is it all by core reviewers? is it majority rules? committers only? | 14:53 |
| sbalukoff | Oh! Sorry, I misunderstood what samuelbercovici suggested. | 14:53 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan_: that's a hard question... | 14:53 |
| crc32 | oh wow. Are heat templates yaml files or is it an actual language with a grammer and such forth. | 14:54 |
| crc32 | ? | 14:54 |
| samuelbercovici | on web UI, can we have a google doc in which each web ui implementation will put a few screen captures of their Web? | 14:54 |
| aburaschi | enikanorov_: I'm thinking that one way or another, batch or multiple calls will make good use of defaults that consider a complete up lb. | 14:54 |
| enikanorov_ | crc32: it is. we need particular feature from that language | 14:54 |
| marios | crc32: i've only ever seen yaml templates. but there is definitely a grammar that is parsed by the heat engine | 14:55 |
| enikanorov_ | aburaschi: still not sure i get your question | 14:55 |
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| samuelbercovici | even if web UI are out of scope, they may represent how users visualize the configuration | 14:55 |
| marios | crc32: until recently this was all CloudFormation compatible (aws). the HOT spec is new http://docs.openstack.org/developer/heat/template_guide/hot_spec.html | 14:55 |
| crc32 | enikanorov_: Which is it YAML or an actual language. Unless I'm mistaken I'm not sure how we can realisitcly right a wrapper api in YAML. | 14:56 |
| samuelbercovici | and could be used as another sanity check for the api as obviously the web use consumes the api | 14:56 |
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| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: That's a good point. I'm glad I misunderstood your suggestion above, in retrospect. :D | 14:56 |
| crc32 | thats right up their with writing a DSL in XML and yes we've had the torture of doing that. :( | 14:57 |
| enikanorov_ | crc32: the feature we need - naming/referencing the objects within provided json. basically that creates such json a separate language for which we will need to create a parser | 14:57 |
| marios | crc32: yaml files, where individual tags within have specific meaning/action | 14:57 |
| enikanorov_ | crc32: not a very big deal, but a thing to consider | 14:57 |
| marios | crc32: (fyi example templates that tripleo uses @ https://github.com/openstack/tripleo-heat-templates) | 14:57 |
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| jorgem | enikanorov_: Before meeting ends do we have proper action items lined out? | 14:58 |
| aburaschi | enikanorov_: just thinking that old simple calls should include the defaults that can create a full up lb from an orchestration point of view. maybe this is trivial... never mind :) | 14:58 |
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| samuelbercovici | so: 1. I will send a google doc with 2 use cases and we can see how each approach works for them 2. on the same document, we can place a few screen captures web UIs | 14:58 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: i'll send them after the meeting shortly | 14:58 |
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| jorgem | enikanorov_: thanks | 14:59 |
| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: may be i'd separate web ui discussion... | 14:59 |
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| tvardeman | +1 enikanorov_ | 14:59 |
| samuelbercovici | enikanorov_: ok. will do | 14:59 |
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| rm_work | yeah that is a weird case, because it is related, but really "not our problem" right now | 14:59 |
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| jorgem | rm_work: GUI creators will be big API users though | 15:00 |
| enikanorov_ | ok, thanks everyone for joining, lets wrap up and continue in ML | 15:00 |
| sbalukoff | They will. | 15:00 |
| aburaschi | thank you | 15:00 |
| enikanorov_ | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 3 15:00:17 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| sbalukoff | Thanks, y'all! | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-04-03-14.00.html | 15:00 |
| jorgem | htanks | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-04-03-14.00.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-04-03-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
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| marios | thanks o/ | 15:00 |
| german_ | thanks | 15:00 |
| samuelbercovici | bye | 15:00 |
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| jd__ | #startmeeting ceilometer | 15:00 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 3 15:00:40 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jd__. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| edhall | bye | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer' | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:00 |
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| ildikov_ | o/ | 15:01 |
| nsaje | o/ | 15:01 |
| jd__ | hey hey | 15:01 |
| admin0 | hey jd__ | 15:01 |
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| nprivalova | hi | 15:01 |
| admin0 | hello | 15:01 |
| eglynn | o/ | 15:01 |
| nealph | o/ | 15:01 |
| gibi | o/ | 15:01 |
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| jd__ | #topic Release status | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Release status (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:01 | |
| jd__ | rc1 is out \o/ | 15:01 |
| nealph | that's fantastic! | 15:02 |
| eglynn | w00t! | 15:02 |
| ildikov_ | \o/ :) | 15:02 |
| jd__ | doesn't look like we need a rc2 AFAIK | 15:02 |
| jd__ | eglynn is going to talk about known issues to release note | 15:02 |
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| admin0 | can you guys also debate about a new publisher .. graphite ? | 15:02 |
| ildikov_ | jd__: what about the translation issue around all projects? | 15:02 |
| sileht | o/ | 15:02 |
| eglynn | ... /me was just think we should collect known gotchas for the release notes | 15:02 |
| admin0 | that i submitted the blueprint to | 15:02 |
| eglynn | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ReleaseNotes/Icehouse | 15:03 |
| jd__ | ildikov_: dunnow | 15:03 |
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| eglynn | at least two potential issues I can think of ... | 15:03 |
| jd__ | admin0: not now, but yes | 15:03 |
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| admin0 | ok | 15:03 |
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| eglynn | 1. the "implicit" requirement for happybase version not specified in the offical requirements | 15:03 |
| ildikov_ | jd__: as I saw it was targeted to RC2 in several projects, but if we do not have any other reason for RC2, then I just asked :) | 15:03 |
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| eglynn | nprivalova: ^^^ does that make sense? | 15:04 |
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| nprivalova | eglynn: AFAIK correct requirements were merged | 15:04 |
| nprivalova | eglynn: let me check | 15:05 |
| eglynn | nprivalova: merged to master, but not milestone-proposed? | 15:05 |
| nprivalova | eglynn: yep | 15:05 |
| nprivalova | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82438/ | 15:06 |
| eglynn | nprivalova: so not in RC1 in that case | 15:06 |
| nprivalova | eglynn: right | 15:06 |
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| ildikov_ | nprivalova: is it enough in the requirements that !=0.7? | 15:06 |
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| nprivalova | ildikov_: we support >0.4 and !=0.7 | 15:07 |
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| nprivalova | I think we may add it to release note | 15:07 |
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| jd__ | cool | 15:07 |
| jd__ | anything else? | 15:08 |
| ildikov_ | nprivalova: I just remembered that there was something about 0.6 also as it is buggy like 0.7, but maybe it's not my day as for questions :) | 15:08 |
| eglynn | nprivalova: https://github.com/openstack/ceilometer/blob/master/requirements.txt is still happybase>=0.4,<=0.6 | 15:08 |
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| eglynn | nprivalova: ^^^ isn't that problematic? (the =0.6 case) | 15:08 |
| nprivalova | eglynn: it should be synced with global | 15:09 |
| nprivalova | eglynn: ==0.6 is ok | 15:09 |
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| nprivalova | ildikov_: it was just mistake in message :) 0.6 is ok | 15:09 |
| nprivalova | besides, I'd like discuss https://bugs.launchpad.net/ceilometer/+bug/1288284 . We add it to known issues? | 15:09 |
| eglynn | nprivalova: a-ha, ok ... I thought we couldn't sync it up on Friday due to the dependency freeze (as you discussed with ttx) | 15:09 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1288284 in ceilometer "[Hbase]Resource with multiple meters is not handled correctly" [High,In progress] | 15:09 |
| ildikov_ | nprivalova: yep, it's on review now, I mean the sync | 15:10 |
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| ildikov_ | nprivalova: a-ha, ok, cool :) | 15:10 |
| eglynn | nprivalova: yep, sounds reasonable to note 1288284 | 15:10 |
| nprivalova | eglynn: ok | 15:10 |
| eglynn | ok the other one I had in mind was the issue with multi-process/multi-worker collector running against postgres | 15:10 |
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| eglynn | (as discussed last week with gordc) | 15:11 |
| nprivalova | yep, and DBDeadlock issue | 15:11 |
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| eglynn | seems we should include a caveat not to scale out the collector if running against postgres | 15:11 |
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| ildikov_ | eglynn: is only postgres affected i nthis whole DB issue finally? | 15:11 |
| eglynn | ildikov_: TBH I'm not 100% sure about that | 15:12 |
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| eglynn | ildikov_: discussed briefly with gordc yesterday http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-ceilometer/%23openstack-ceilometer.2014-04-02.log | 15:13 |
| ildikov_ | eglynn: ok, I will try to check after meeting in the logs and mails | 15:13 |
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| eglynn | #action eglynn wrangle release notes "known issues" entries from SMEs | 15:14 |
| nprivalova | we will test performance soon and will check it anyway | 15:14 |
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| eglynn | k, we can prolly move on if no-one else has other release-notable items in mind | 15:14 |
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| jd__ | ack | 15:15 |
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| * admin0 waits :) | 15:15 | |
| jd__ | #topic Tempest integration | 15:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tempest integration (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:15 | |
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| * isviridov also waits | 15:15 | |
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| nprivalova | unfortunately no updates. We still have one collector (as it done by default) and tests fail | 15:16 |
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| jd__ | ok | 15:16 |
| jd__ | #topic Release python-ceilometerclient? | 15:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Release python-ceilometerclient? (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:16 | |
| jd__ | I think we should do that now | 15:17 |
| eglynn | already done a couple days ago :) | 15:17 |
| ildikov_ | it's released \o/ | 15:17 |
| jd__ | oh great, I was just checking and still saw a few patches | 15:17 |
| eglynn | #link https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-ceilometerclient/1.0.10 | 15:17 |
| jd__ | thanks eglynn | 15:17 |
| jd__ | #topic Open discussion | 15:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:17 | |
| eglynn | ... /me just realized he released 1.0.10 on April Fool's Day ;) | 15:18 |
| ildikov_ | eglynn: LOL :) | 15:18 |
| admin0 | graphite publisher :) .. so that people do not have to install the full ceilometer components, but just get the graphs directly to graphite | 15:19 |
| ildikov_ | eglynn: it was a bit unbelievable that it finally got released ;) | 15:19 |
| eglynn | ildikov_: ... it was a long time coming all right! :) | 15:19 |
| eglynn | admin0: so do you want feedback on the idea or the code? | 15:19 |
| eglynn | admin0: is it out for (WIP) review on gerrit? | 15:20 |
| admin0 | i have not uploaded the code yet .. i was waiting for your views on it before i upload the code | 15:20 |
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| admin0 | someone said i should check before wrting a lot of codes | 15:20 |
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| nprivalova | it was me :) | 15:20 |
| eglynn | admin0: but you don have some basic working code already, right? | 15:20 |
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| admin0 | i do have a basic working code ready that is already working | 15:21 |
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| eglynn | admin0: (... maybe no tests, docco yet, but that's fine for WIP) | 15:21 |
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| nprivalova | the question from me was: why we need separate publisher for graphite? why UDP is not enough? | 15:21 |
| ildikov_ | BTW, do we want to have specialized publishers? | 15:21 |
| dhellmann | does graphite want a special format for its packets? | 15:22 |
| admin0 | nprivalova: with udp, i was just getting the metrics, and i need a separate daemon running to convert the codes to the graphite format | 15:22 |
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| eglynn | admin0: ... my recommendation would be throw it up on gerrit so as to get early eyes on it, which would help to answer nprivalova's question in a more concrete way | 15:22 |
| nprivalova | aha, so we may need some converter? not publisher actually? | 15:22 |
| ildikov_ | I think it is too specific to be placed inside Ceilometer | 15:23 |
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| eglynn | nprivalova: publisher is currently end of the sink chain, but I wonder could this conversion be done in a transformer? | 15:23 |
| admin0 | if ceilometer can send to a tcp port in the format say: ceilometer.tenant(name/id).vm(name/id).disk.write.bytes 10 timestamp .. .. that would do | 15:24 |
| nprivalova | eglynn: I'm thinking about transformer too... | 15:24 |
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| nprivalova | so I think that if code is ready admin0 may publish it and we will think about moving conversion to transformer or smth else | 15:25 |
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| ildikov_ | eglynn: do we want to have client specific transformers in Ceilometer? maybe I'm on the wrong track with this question, but it seems a bit out of scope for me | 15:26 |
| eglynn | nprivalova: though the publisher still needs the transformed data in sample-like form https://github.com/openstack/ceilometer/blob/master/ceilometer/publisher/utils.py#L74 | 15:26 |
| eglynn | ildikov_: well I suppose it doesn't necessarily need to live in the ceilometer tree | 15:26 |
| ildikov_ | eglynn: a-ha, ok, fair enough | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | ildikov_: I don't see a problem with adding this. It's a very commonly used tool, and IIRC we talked about adding this eventually when we first made publishers pluggable. | 15:27 |
| eglynn | ildikov_: ... but our pipeline should probably be flexible enough to accomodate an externally provided plugin | 15:27 |
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| nprivalova | but we may provide a mechanism to add such converters | 15:27 |
| admin0 | if using pipeline it can have tcp function and able to format (string ) the output, it should work | 15:27 |
| eglynn | so I think first step is to look at admin0's code and if the coversions can be performed in a transformer | 15:28 |
| nprivalova | eglynn: agreed | 15:28 |
| eglynn | (while re-using the existing UDP publisher as nprivalova suggests) | 15:28 |
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| eglynn | admin0: can you propose a patch on gerrit with your code? | 15:28 |
| admin0 | i will start on it right now | 15:29 |
| ildikov_ | dhellmann: I see your point, but I'm also sure that there are several commonly used tools on the market, so I just wanted highlight this question earlier, than later to discuss the options | 15:29 |
| eglynn | admin0: ty! | 15:29 |
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| dhellmann | ildikov_: I'd like to think we would take a big-tent approach for publishers, like we do with storage drivers | 15:29 |
| admin0 | i will beautify my codes, put comments on why i am doing something .. and then submit a review | 15:30 |
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| * isviridov thinks if it is time for MagnetoDB blueprints? | 15:30 | |
| eglynn | dhellmann: ... which is a nice segueway into isviridov's topic | 15:30 |
| ildikov_ | dhellmann: we have some issues now we the supported DB drivers, it needs more than less refactor/redesign now, I just would like to avoid similar issues with publishers | 15:31 |
| nprivalova | isviridov: please move on :) | 15:31 |
| isviridov | So, I would suggest support of our MagnetoDB in Celiometer | 15:32 |
| isviridov | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ceilometer/+spec/magnetodb-driver | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | ildikov_: yes, true. we should add the tests if possible, rather than refusing new plugins | 15:32 |
| eglynn | isviridov: key questions in my mind ... | 15:33 |
| isviridov | It is key-value and perfect for timeseries data | 15:33 |
| isviridov | eglynn: pelase | 15:33 |
| eglynn | isviridov: ... 1. would be providing full or partial feature parity with mongo/sqla drivers? | 15:33 |
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| eglynn | isviridov: ... 2. would you be sticking around as driver maintainer for at least the medium-term | 15:34 |
| ildikov_ | dhellmann: yes, I agree in this point, we should surely focus more on proper tests this time | 15:34 |
| eglynn | isviridov: ... (we need to avoid "code drops" lacking active maintainership IMO) | 15:34 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: +1 | 15:34 |
| ildikov_ | eglynn: +1 | 15:35 |
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| isviridov | eglynn: 1: it has http interface and actually covers database behind. | 15:35 |
| eglynn | isviridov: I'm thinking more of the "glue code" that lies between the ceilometer API and the native DB API | 15:36 |
| isviridov | eglynn: 2. Yes. We have a plans also for future integration with Celiometer in metrics writing and collecting | 15:36 |
| eglynn | isviridov: for each storage driver we have logic that maps between a high-level primitive like get_resources and the corresponding DB-specific queries | 15:37 |
| eglynn | isviridov: in some case the semantics of these primitives are incomplete in some subset of the drivers | 15:38 |
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| eglynn | isviridov: so the question is not whether magnetoDB can do everything database-y | 15:39 |
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| isviridov | eglynn: yeap, it is clear. We will drive inplementation of that part to make MagnetoDB + Celiometer better | 15:39 |
| ildikov_ | isviridov: did I see right that you plan to use Cassandra behind it? | 15:39 |
| nprivalova | So Magneto looks like an additional layer between API and DBs... In future we may remove add DB-code from Ceilometer and use only Magneto API :)? | 15:40 |
| isviridov | ildikov_: Cassandra is our primarry storage, the best tested and with best performance. | 15:40 |
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| isviridov | ildikov_: but we are planning support of HBase as one of next and started devstack integration for that. | 15:41 |
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| eglynn | jd__: you've already got a partially implemented "direct" cassandra driver for ceilo, or? | 15:42 |
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| jd__ | eglynn: only write is supported | 15:42 |
| ildikov_ | isviridov: ok, I just asked because of future testing issues mainly | 15:42 |
| eglynn | jd__: a-ha, k | 15:42 |
| isviridov | nprivalova: exactly | 15:42 |
| eglynn | (just wondering if the same cassandra benefits, i.e. TSD goodness etc., could be got via magnetoDB) | 15:43 |
| isviridov | ildikov_: we have done with devstack integration and have tempest running on gates. | 15:43 |
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| ildikov_ | eglynn: good point, I was thinking about the same | 15:43 |
| eglynn | isviridov: so this TSD goodness in magnetoDB you speak of, is that mostly derived from the Cassandra underpinnings? | 15:44 |
| nprivalova | I have two more questions. 1. What about sql and 2. Complex queries | 15:44 |
| isviridov | eglynn: actually we are trying to go very close to cassandra in functionality, to keep its performance | 15:44 |
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| eglynn | isviridov: and if I deployed magnetoDB backed by say hbase, maybe I wouldn't see the same benefits when manipulating TSD? | 15:45 |
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| isviridov | eglynn: Implement it on top of C* is the cheapest way and C* is very easy in administration (geterogenous cluster). But with HBase we have key-value storage as well. And I beilive it is the main reason for performance. | 15:46 |
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| isviridov | eglynn: but yes, you are right. It will be somehow another | 15:47 |
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| eglynn | isviridov: cool, I was just wondering if the suitablity for storing TSD in magnetoDB is more an attribute of the chosen backing store than of magnetDB *itself* | 15:48 |
| eglynn | isviridov: ... and sounds like the answer is "yes" | 15:48 |
| isviridov | eglynn: awesome! | 15:48 |
| nprivalova | it very 'openstack'ish' way... one service use another service. When all backends implementations in Ceilometer we may control performance (theoretically). Now isviridov suggests a service that (theoretically) will provide best performance for all backends in a year (2,3...) | 15:49 |
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| nprivalova | it theory sounds great :) but what is the status of Magneto? Tests, integration testing and so on | 15:50 |
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| eglynn | isviridov: is magnetoDB officially incubating? | 15:50 |
| isviridov | nprivalova: The main benefit as for me is in maintenence of one storage and yes, MagnetoDB is scalable horisontally, so performace is close to C* | 15:50 |
| eglynn | isviridov: (... as an openstack project) | 15:50 |
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| ildikov_ | isviridov: what about nprivalova's two questions? | 15:51 |
| nprivalova | eglynn: do you agree that our own implementations and Magneto usage should live together for a long time? | 15:51 |
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| nprivalova | eglynn: I'm not against this actually, just asking | 15:52 |
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| isviridov | eglynn: it is openstack project and (i hope) will be incubated soon. Now it has unit testing coverage about 60-80%. It has very good tempest coverage and devstack gate | 15:52 |
| isviridov | ildikov_: missed | 15:53 |
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| nprivalova | isviridov: 1. SQL 2. Complex queries | 15:53 |
| eglynn | nprivalova: ... well magnetoDB sounds like an interesting way to allow Ceilometer leverage Cassandra's suitability for TSD | 15:53 |
| eglynn | nprivalova: ... but I'm not sure that it will displace the "direct" storage drivers | 15:53 |
| ildikov_ | nprivalova: thanks :) | 15:53 |
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| isviridov | nprivalova: No sql, but JSON defined queries | 15:53 |
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| isviridov | nprivalova: about complex queries: there are several primitives which can be used to achive requied complexity. | 15:54 |
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| isviridov | nprivalova: in generall approach is to store different projections of the same data | 15:55 |
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| isviridov | nprivalova: for more analitics Hadoop can be used | 15:55 |
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| nprivalova | eglynn: ah, you see Cassandra usage primarily | 15:56 |
| ildikov_ | eglynn: I think the direct drivers will be needed, in case of SQL backends for sure and if we keep Mongo than for that also | 15:56 |
| eglynn | ildikov_: agree | 15:56 |
| isviridov | eglynn: not displace, but for cloud maintener, I believe it is better to work with one cluster of C*, HBase whatever | 15:57 |
| eglynn | one other potential issue ... | 15:57 |
| eglynn | ... assuming magnetoDB becomes an incubated openstack project as per isviridov's wishes | 15:57 |
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| eglynn | ... is it kosher for a graduated project like ceilometer to take a dependency on an incubated project? | 15:57 |
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| eglynn | ... i.e. is incubatedness somehow viral? | 15:57 |
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| eglynn | dhellmann: ^^^ you may know the answer to that | 15:58 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: we couldn't depend on it as the only implementation, but we could provide a driver to use it | 15:58 |
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| eglynn | dhellmann: a-ha, k, thanks! | 15:58 |
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| dhellmann | and it probably shouldn't be the default until it is integrated | 15:58 |
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| eglynn | agreed | 15:59 |
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| eglynn | isviridov: so if I'm reading the temperature of the discussion correctly ... | 15:59 |
| eglynn | isviridov: ... I'd say you should go ahead and start implementing such a driver :) | 16:00 |
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| ildikov_ | eglynn: as a driver, it can be used I think and if nprivalova's guess comes true in a year (2, 3...) it can be considered again as default supported driver or something like | 16:00 |
| isviridov | eglynn: thanks for your blessing | 16:00 |
| eglynn | isviridov: ... with the privisos that (a) you commit to near-parity feature-wise and (b) you intend to stick around as driver maintainer | 16:00 |
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| isviridov | eglynn: agree | 16:01 |
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| eglynn | ildikov_: yep, possibly a longer-term possibility for the "one driver to rule them all" | 16:01 |
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| eglynn | ... we're running up against the shot-clock here folks | 16:02 |
| ildikov_ | eglynn: hmm, we will see, the game is just about to start :) | 16:02 |
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| nprivalova | thanks for discussions! | 16:03 |
| eglynn | jd__: if there's nothing else on the agenda you could pull the trigger on the #endmeeting | 16:03 |
| eglynn | thanks all! | 16:04 |
| isviridov | thank you for your thoughts! | 16:04 |
| jd__ | ack :) | 16:04 |
| jd__ | #endmeeting | 16:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:04 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 3 16:04:08 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:04 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-04-03-15.00.html | 16:04 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-04-03-15.00.txt | 16:04 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-04-03-15.00.log.html | 16:04 |
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| hyakuhei | Right, so providing I've not screwed up my timezones again, lets start :) | 17:02 |
| hyakuhei | #startmeeting OpenStack Security Group | 17:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 3 17:02:45 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hyakuhei. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 17:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group' | 17:02 |
| nkinder | o/ | 17:03 |
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| hyakuhei | #topic Role call | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Role call (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 17:03 | |
| hyakuhei | Speak up people :D | 17:03 |
| chair6 | < jamie from HP | 17:03 |
| * hyakuhei here, in seattle this week | 17:03 | |
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| hyakuhei | Lets give people a minute or two to roll in. | 17:03 |
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| hyakuhei | I guess that'll do, looks like we have most people here. I've got Doug from HP here with me also | 17:04 |
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| hyakuhei | Right, whats the agenda for today? | 17:05 |
| hyakuhei | OSSN updates would be a good start I suppose - nkinder ? | 17:05 |
| hyakuhei | #topic OSSN updates | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OSSN updates (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 17:05 | |
| hyakuhei | nkinder: are you around to give us an updatE? | 17:06 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: yep, sorry (got pulled aside) | 17:06 |
| hyakuhei | I see that we now have stuff working in the gerrit review system, I think it's already showing some value :) | 17:06 |
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| nkinder | So, gerrit is working now, and we've run the first OSSN through it! | 17:07 |
| hyakuhei | Wonderful! | 17:07 |
| hyakuhei | How's your OSSN coming chair6 ? | 17:07 |
| nkinder | The review guidelines Bryan and I discussed match the normal process. We want two +2's, then a core member can approve the push. | 17:07 |
| chair6 | draft in progress, eta for review later today | 17:07 |
| nkinder | chair6: which OSSN are you working on? | 17:07 |
| chair6 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1287219 | 17:08 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1287219 in keystone "scope of domain admin too broad in v3 policy sample" [Medium,Fix released] | 17:08 |
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| nkinder | chair6: ah, ok. When you submit the review, add me as a reviewer please. | 17:08 |
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| chair6 | will do | 17:08 |
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| hyakuhei | So I'd like to thank nkinder for his hard work | 17:08 |
| hyakuhei | and I will - thanks ;) | 17:08 |
| nkinder | I started looking into adding a simple job to check for trailing whitespace. We can then expand on it if we have other formatting checks. | 17:09 |
| Dg_ | Hi, I'm Doug from HP | 17:09 |
| nkinder | Hi Doug | 17:09 |
| hyakuhei | Thanks cool nkinder I'd like to look at adding more jobs in, basic stuff like spell checking (though that's not easy with technical stuff) format checking etc | 17:09 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: we can certainly have a non-voting job for things like spell check | 17:10 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: the nice thing will be that one can run the jobs using tox before submitting the review | 17:10 |
| hyakuhei | Maybe when you've gone through how to do the basic one we can chat about writing more? | 17:10 |
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| nkinder | It's also on my list to sync up with the docs team to add a publishing job for an appendix in the Security Guide. | 17:11 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: definitely. | 17:11 |
| hyakuhei | Yeah so that's useful for sure, though manual intervention tasks (find a place to insert a link to the appendix) will need to be spawned or taken into account too | 17:11 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: I'll work with docs to see how to best handle that | 17:12 |
| hyakuhei | In fact, we probably need an action to review the current OSSNs and work out where to insert them into the guide | 17:12 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: I can handle that | 17:12 |
| hyakuhei | #topic security guidelines | 17:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "security guidelines (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 17:13 | |
| hyakuhei | nkinder: thanks, make sure you don't overload yourself though! | 17:13 |
| Dg_ | hyakuhei and chair6 - sprint on the security guidelines this week? | 17:13 |
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| hyakuhei | I think that would work, a lot of the HP folk are together in the same place over the next few days, so if people here are happy I think we can get together and get lots of content down | 17:14 |
| hyakuhei | and then non-HP people can review :) | 17:14 |
| chair6 | sounds good, this week or next week.. | 17:14 |
| hyakuhei | Ok cool, so lets take an action to do it before the next OSSG meeting | 17:15 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: is the focus on operator or developer guidelines? | 17:15 |
| hyakuhei | developer | 17:15 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: ok | 17:15 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: so filling out the previous items that were defined (and adding to them)? | 17:15 |
| hyakuhei | To my mind, its a set of 'rules' that we can get PTLs to agree to, that should then help bring up the quality of security code in OpenStack | 17:15 |
| hyakuhei | in the longterm I can see some being codified into jenkins jobs, tempest checks etc | 17:15 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: makes sense | 17:16 |
| chair6 | perhaps 'secure design/development guidelines' is a better label | 17:16 |
| Dg_ | yeah | 17:16 |
| nkinder | chair6: +1 | 17:16 |
| hyakuhei | I've got no objection to that. | 17:16 |
| hyakuhei | Or "+1" in Openstack parlance | 17:16 |
| hyakuhei | #topic AOB | 17:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 17:17 | |
| chair6 | that was https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Security/Guidelines, for the record | 17:17 |
| hyakuhei | So I sent around a newsletter-ish email a few days back, elaborating on the things that were discussed in the previous OSSG meeting and some of my thoughts about the future. | 17:18 |
| hyakuhei | Did anyone see it / find any value? | 17:18 |
| Dg_ | yes | 17:18 |
| hyakuhei | go team! | 17:18 |
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| hyakuhei | So, I'm wondering if it's worth doing these now and again, to keep people up to date because reading IRC logs is not very fun. | 17:19 |
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| Dg_ | hyakuhei +1 | 17:19 |
| hyakuhei | any other business? | 17:19 |
| nkinder | I'm planning on setting up a mid-cycle security related hackfest | 17:20 |
| hyakuhei | oooh | 17:20 |
| nkinder | This is more for developers really. I'd like to get some cross-project interest and movement towards some security related goals | 17:20 |
| nkinder | Topics on my mind are making SSL deployments easier and secure messaging | 17:21 |
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| hyakuhei | nkinder: yeah | 17:21 |
| nkinder | There are efforts going on in these areas, but not a lot of cross-project buy in | 17:21 |
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| hyakuhei | So that's a good point. | 17:21 |
| hyakuhei | #topic SSL | 17:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "SSL (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 17:21 | |
| hyakuhei | The guidance on SSL isn't overly good at the moment | 17:21 |
| nkinder | I have a long SSL blog post I'm just about finished with | 17:21 |
| hyakuhei | Lots of people are doing this in different ways | 17:22 |
| hyakuhei | Oh cool | 17:22 |
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| nkinder | ...which covers exactly that | 17:22 |
| hyakuhei | Ok, so lets wait for that and use it to start a discussion? | 17:22 |
| nkinder | So the docs can definitely be improved, and I've done a lot of research that can feed into that. | 17:22 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: yes, a next week topic I suppose | 17:22 |
| hyakuhei | Yeah, everyone does it differently, I personally lean towards pre-service termination (on the same physical host) but it's really context dependant. | 17:23 |
| nkinder | On the SSL topic, I also have a colleague who is working on SSL enabling devstack | 17:23 |
| hyakuhei | Great, I should talk to you guys about a CA piece I've been working on. | 17:23 |
| nkinder | If we can make it easy to set up SSL automatically with devstack, we can start having tests actually run regularly with SSL | 17:23 |
| hyakuhei | Absolutely | 17:24 |
| Dg_ | nkinder: it'd be good to take a look at that blogpost, I have an internal doucment we can share if you want - giving our requirements and justification for them | 17:24 |
| nkinder | Dg_: that would be great | 17:24 |
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| nkinder | Dg_: I hope to have my writeup out in the next day or so | 17:24 |
| nkinder | I'll send it to the list | 17:24 |
| hyakuhei | ok cool - so, any other business I guess? | 17:25 |
| Dg_ | nkinder: let me know you email and I'll forward it over | 17:25 |
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| nkinder | Dg_: nkinder at redhat dot com | 17:25 |
| Dg_ | kk | 17:25 |
| hyakuhei | #topic AOB-again | 17:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "AOB-again (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 17:26 | |
| hyakuhei | Anything else before we close up? | 17:26 |
| hyakuhei | ok great, thank you everyone! | 17:27 |
| hyakuhei | #endmeeting | 17:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:27 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 3 17:27:43 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:27 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-04-03-17.02.html | 17:27 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-04-03-17.02.txt | 17:27 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-04-03-17.02.log.html | 17:27 |
| nkinder | Thanks all! | 17:27 |
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| bdpayne | hyakuhei did you change the meeting time? | 17:49 |
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| hyakuhei | bdpayne: No, Feel free to hold a second meeting because I'm an idiot, I thought it was quiet but people where there. I've been in three timezones in the last four days - I don't think Outlook can keep up! | 17:50 |
| hyakuhei | *were | 17:50 |
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| bdpayne | ha, ok | 17:51 |
| bdpayne | I'll see who's around at 1800 | 17:52 |
| hyakuhei | Thanks, sorry about that. I've updated the wiki with the meeting log etc | 17:52 |
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| hyakuhei | bdpayne: as you're around. What did you think of the email I sent a few days ago, discussing the various bits of OSSG work that are ongoing? | 17:54 |
| bdpayne | generally ok, I have some thoughts that I wanted to discuss when we meet | 17:54 |
| bdpayne | whenever that will be | 17:54 |
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| bdpayne | #startmeeting OpenStack Security Group | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 3 18:00:36 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is bdpayne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group' | 18:00 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:01 |
| bdpayne | for those that have been hanging out, you may have noticed that hyakuhei held and OSSG meeting here an hour ago | 18:01 |
| bdpayne | http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-04-03-17.02.log.html | 18:01 |
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| shohel02 | ahaa ! | 18:01 |
| bdpayne | He is time zone impaired ;-) | 18:01 |
| bdpayne | But, this is the normal meeting time | 18:01 |
| bdpayne | So I wanted to touch base and make sure that we covered everything that people would like to discuss | 18:01 |
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| bdpayne | With that said... | 18:01 |
| bdpayne | #topic Roll Call | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:02 | |
| bdpayne | Who is here? | 18:02 |
| shohel02 | hi | 18:02 |
| CristianF | Hi, Cristian here | 18:02 |
| bknudson | Brant - IBM | 18:03 |
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| bdpayne | ok... so I was just reading through the previous meeting's minutes | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | #topic Agenda | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:03 | |
| bdpayne | Looks like they discussed OSSNs and a few other smaller topics | 18:04 |
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| bdpayne | Is everyone aware of the new OSSN process? | 18:04 |
| bdpayne | we are now setup to review OSSNs in gerrit | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | and they are all stored in git | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | a much nicer setup | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | we already ran on through the system this week | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | and it's working nicely | 18:05 |
| bknudson | what's the gerrit project? | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | one sec, I'll find it | 18:05 |
| bknudson | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:merged+project:openstack/openstack-security-notes,n,z | 18:06 |
| bknudson | found it | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | ah yeah | 18:06 |
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| bdpayne | you're faster than I | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | :-) | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | see also http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/openstack-security-notes/ | 18:06 |
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| bknudson | I'll add it to the watch list. | 18:06 |
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| shohel02 | +1, i will too | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | great | 18:07 |
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| bdpayne | anything else in particular that people would like to discuss today? | 18:07 |
| bknudson | what's the format? plain text? | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | there's a template | 18:08 |
| bdpayne | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/openstack-security-notes/tree/templates | 18:08 |
| bdpayne | but yes, structured text | 18:08 |
| bdpayne | well, lightly structured ;-) | 18:09 |
| bknudson | just wondering if it's rst or the doc xml | 18:09 |
| bknudson | docbook xml | 18:09 |
| bdpayne | oh, nothing like that | 18:09 |
| bdpayne | basically plaint text | 18:09 |
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| bknudson | ok, I don't have an argument for docbook or rst. | 18:10 |
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| bdpayne | so I don't have a specific agenda for today, and it appears that much of the discussion happened in the meeting an hour ago | 18:11 |
| bdpayne | are there other topics you guys want to discuss here? | 18:11 |
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| CristianF | referring to Security Guidelines, I went ahead and added a new guideline I found was missing (about input validation); just wanted to know if there is any process for reviewing info in this wiki? | 18:11 |
| CristianF | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Security/Guidelines | 18:11 |
| bdpayne | oh thanks | 18:11 |
| bdpayne | so there's nothing formal for reviewing that yet | 18:12 |
| bdpayne | as you make changes, it could be nice to just mention it on the ML | 18:12 |
| bdpayne | that way people can discuss / track | 18:12 |
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| bdpayne | in time, we may want to move stuff like this into git | 18:12 |
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| bdpayne | but right now it's an early stage WIP | 18:12 |
| bdpayne | so the wiki feels right | 18:12 |
| CristianF | ok, fine. Thanks. | 18:12 |
| bdpayne | having said all of that | 18:12 |
| bdpayne | input validation is a very good one to have | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | on a related note | 18:13 |
| bknudson | adding input validation is a great addition... | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | Nova is putting together a formal BP template | 18:13 |
| bknudson | now we just have to do it in keystone | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | And I added a section to their template to discuss security impact | 18:13 |
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| bdpayne | In that section, I reference this wiki page | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | I think it would be great if all of the projects did something similar | 18:13 |
| bknudson | are they expecting OSSG to verify the bps? | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | bknudson Does keystone have a formal BP template? | 18:14 |
| bknudson | bdpayne: keystone uses launchpad for blueprints still | 18:14 |
| shohel02 | For keystone Input validation would be good addition bknudson | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | we aren't quite there yet (OSSG verification of BPs) | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | but I'd like for it to start moving that way | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | at least getting people thinking about security at the design stage is important | 18:14 |
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| bdpayne | and can help direct OSSG efforts | 18:15 |
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| shohel02 | yes, i have one question, do we have any session in the Atlanta summit to discuss about ongoing security works/future works | 18:16 |
| shohel02 | mainly discussion session | 18:16 |
| bdpayne | normally I setup an OSSG lunch | 18:16 |
| bdpayne | and I will be doing that again this time | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | but we don't have a specific session devoted to that | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | I'm happy to setup a more formal OSSG meeting though | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | could be useful | 18:17 |
| shohel02 | yes definately | 18:17 |
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| shohel02 | now that we have many security works ongoing | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | so the security track at the summit is basically Monday | 18:17 |
| bknudson | for the developer conference? | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | I'm not sure where this would fit in the dev summit, unfortunately | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | we might just do it informally, or setup a session at the unconference | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | unless... is there a good slot for something like this at the dev summit? | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | we aren't really a project, unfortunately | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | anyway, I'll take this as an action item to figure out | 18:19 |
| shohel02 | that would be great | 18:19 |
| bdpayne | #action bdpayne to Plan a formal OSSG meeting at the summit, in addition to the lunch | 18:19 |
| bknudson | here's the topics http://summit.openstack.org/ | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | ahh, they do have a cross project workshop topic | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | cool, I may be able to make that work | 18:20 |
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| bdpayne | anything else to discuss? | 18:22 |
| CristianF | shohel: is there threat model meeting tomorrow? | 18:22 |
| shohel02 | yes, we have short one tomorrow | 18:22 |
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| CristianF | I have started with an analysis for Nova, I would like to know then how to add draft for that | 18:23 |
| CristianF | we can discuss then tomorrow then | 18:23 |
| shohel02 | also now possible | 18:23 |
| shohel02 | or tomorrow | 18:23 |
| CristianF | as you prefer | 18:23 |
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| shohel02 | There is a draft currently in the Git repo | 18:23 |
| shohel02 | a template kind of thing | 18:24 |
| shohel02 | https://github.com/shohel02/OpenStack_Threat_Modelling | 18:24 |
| CristianF | yes, I have been working on this template for Nova | 18:25 |
| bknudson | the OSSAs in nova seem to be related a lot to image management | 18:25 |
| bdpayne | at least the recent ones | 18:26 |
| bdpayne | I suspect some people have been looking in that area more | 18:26 |
| shohel02 | yes, i think Nova has good amount code base and it would be tough call | 18:26 |
| bdpayne | Nova is probably also one of the more mature projects | 18:27 |
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| bknudson | the images themselves could be the source of the attack | 18:28 |
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| CristianF | so are you suggesting not be focusing on Nova? | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | yeah, that's the most recent one that came out for Nova | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | oh, I think it is useful to look at Nova | 18:28 |
| shohel02 | i am not saying that... i am saying its useful | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | just commenting that you may find less | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | which would be great | 18:29 |
| bknudson | I was suggesting someplace to focus on. | 18:29 |
| bdpayne | but it is very important to review, in my opinion | 18:29 |
| shohel02 | it would be hard job with huge code base | 18:29 |
| shohel02 | very important one | 18:29 |
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| bknudson | like keystone was looking at auth_token | 18:29 |
| bdpayne | so yeah, image handling, also looking at interactions with the drivers (esp libvirt) and how the users can influence that | 18:29 |
| bdpayne | also looking at scheduling | 18:29 |
| bdpayne | those are the areas I'd focus on, personally | 18:30 |
| CristianF | got it, yes this is big.. I am following a top-down approach, for later taking drilling down on some specific area | 18:30 |
| CristianF | ok, thanks for the feedback | 18:30 |
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| bdpayne | np | 18:31 |
| shohel02 | bknudson has good point, | 18:31 |
| bdpayne | well, I think that's about all we have time for today | 18:32 |
| bdpayne | thanks everyone... cya next time | 18:33 |
| bknudson | thanks | 18:33 |
| shohel02 | thanks | 18:33 |
| bdpayne | #endmeeting | 18:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:33 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 3 18:33:17 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:33 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-04-03-18.00.html | 18:33 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-04-03-18.00.txt | 18:33 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-04-03-18.00.log.html | 18:33 |
| CristianF | bye | 18:33 |
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| harlowja | #startmeeting openstack-state-management | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 3 19:00:55 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is harlowja. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_state_management' | 19:01 |
| harlowja | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/StateManagement#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:01 |
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| harlowja | anyone around, if not short meeting i guess ;) | 19:01 |
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| harlowja | \o | 19:02 |
| harlowja | ha | 19:02 |
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| harlowja | k, waiting for 5 more minutes ;) | 19:06 |
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| praneshp | taskflow meeting going on here? | 19:06 |
| harlowja | praneshp not many people showing up, bahha | 19:06 |
| harlowja | guess all away or something :-P | 19:07 |
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| praneshp | hmm | 19:07 |
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| harlowja | can have micro-meeting :-P | 19:07 |
| harlowja | guess i'll just do a small report, lol | 19:07 |
| harlowja | #topic 0.2 released | 19:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "0.2 released (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)" | 19:07 | |
| harlowja | #link https://pypi.python.org/pypi/taskflow/0.2 | 19:08 |
| harlowja | released! | 19:08 |
| harlowja | #topic 0.2.1 release | 19:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "0.2.1 release (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)" | 19:08 | |
| harlowja | so we have a few small bugs and features for 0.2.1 | 19:08 |
| harlowja | so far BPs for 0.2.1 | 19:08 |
| harlowja | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/taskflow/+spec/job-filtering | 19:08 |
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| harlowja | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/taskflow/+spec/persistence-uris | 19:09 |
| harlowja | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/taskflow/+spec/jobboard-entrypoints | 19:10 |
| harlowja | and bugs | 19:10 |
| harlowja | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/taskflow/+bug/1302089 | 19:10 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1302089 in taskflow/0.2.1 "Exception in worker queue thread" [Critical,In progress] | 19:10 |
| harlowja | so hopefully can have that next weekish | 19:10 |
| harlowja | #topic 0.3 | 19:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "0.3 (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)" | 19:10 | |
| harlowja | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/taskflow | 19:11 |
| harlowja | will wait around for that one when more people are here, like to get more feedback for 0.3 | 19:11 |
| harlowja | #topic lazy-engine | 19:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "lazy-engine (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)" | 19:11 | |
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| harlowja | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-April/031716.html | 19:11 |
| harlowja | same with this one, will report back on IRC or email/ML when more of this gets flushed out | 19:12 |
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| harlowja | so thats my status update :) | 19:12 |
| harlowja | #topic open-discuss | 19:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open-discuss (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)" | 19:12 | |
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| harlowja | alright, short meeting then | 19:15 |
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| harlowja | if people need to discuss more and are just not around #openstack-state-management | 19:15 |
| harlowja | find most of us there (including me!) | 19:15 |
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| harlowja | #endmeeting | 19:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:17 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 3 19:17:31 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:17 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_state_management/2014/openstack_state_management.2014-04-03-19.00.html | 19:17 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_state_management/2014/openstack_state_management.2014-04-03-19.00.txt | 19:17 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_state_management/2014/openstack_state_management.2014-04-03-19.00.log.html | 19:17 |
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| harlowja | alright, anyone around for the next real meeting, the last one was a fake, lol | 20:00 |
| harlowja | i blame DST and all that | 20:00 |
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| iv_m | hi there | 20:02 |
| harlowja | :) | 20:02 |
| harlowja | one sec, switching to wireless | 20:02 |
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| harlowja | #startmeeting openstack-state-management | 20:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 3 20:03:47 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is harlowja. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)" | 20:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_state_management' | 20:03 |
| harlowja | so this is the second fun meeting today | 20:04 |
| harlowja | i sorta messedup the other meeting, lol, wrong time ; | 20:04 |
| harlowja | ;) | 20:04 |
| harlowja | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/StateManagement#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 20:04 |
| harlowja | the stuff from last meeting, 1 hour ago, lol | 20:04 |
| harlowja | http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_state_management/2014/openstack_state_management.2014-04-03-19.00.html | 20:04 |
| harlowja | #topic time-shift | 20:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "time-shift (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)" | 20:05 | |
| harlowja | iv_m so 1900 UTC is better for u right | 20:05 |
| iv_m | yup, thanks a lot! | 20:05 |
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| harlowja | np, just lets u sleep a little i guess | 20:06 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:06 |
| harlowja | more sleep, lol | 20:06 |
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| harlowja | for the 0.2.1 do u think thats fine iv_m , from last hour ago meeting, just some small fixes | 20:07 |
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| harlowja | mainly some small blueprints and any other bugs we find | 20:07 |
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| iv_m | harlowja: looks good | 20:08 |
| harlowja | kk | 20:08 |
| harlowja | changbl yt | 20:08 |
| harlowja | as for 0.3, i was thinking we can go through the current BPs and tag them | 20:08 |
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| harlowja | and depending on what the mistral collaboration is we can figure out other new ones | 20:09 |
| harlowja | lets jump into that, and maybe we can discuss that a little | 20:10 |
| harlowja | #topic mistral-engine-ideas | 20:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mistral-engine-ideas (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)" | 20:10 | |
| harlowja | i think the idea is becoming more clear, and i think it may not actually be that big of a change | 20:10 |
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| harlowja | basically an engine that doesn't keep active while running (but could do 1 execution iteration, and stop and repeat...) | 20:11 |
| harlowja | and then it can be mistral that does all the iterations on its own time | 20:11 |
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| harlowja | dkrause also had the idea of allowing tasks to write there own logbook data so that the engine doesn't even have to do that on there behalf | 20:12 |
| harlowja | that would make the engine do even less (or could do less, depending on the selected engine type) | 20:12 |
| harlowja | it would still allow us to retain the existing types (which would just be the 'all in one' solution) | 20:12 |
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| iv_m | tasks saving their own results? | 20:13 |
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| dkrause | it would allow us to stop the engine while tasks were still running remotely (for engines that don't run tasks in the same process as the engine) | 20:14 |
| harlowja | ya, i'm not 100% clear on it also, but i think instead of an engine interacting with storage, task itself could in some cases save its own failure/result into the storage backend (in some cases, failures may not be possible to do this, especially if task/worker running task crashes) | 20:14 |
| iv_m | that practically makes database open for remote workers; nova invented conductor to avoid it | 20:15 |
| harlowja | it would make what is suspension a little hard to define, since an engine can suspend itself, but tasks could actually still be running (which would make the resuming part a little awkard, since if a engine is resumed before the previous tasks that were running before suspension finished that might be odd) | 20:16 |
| harlowja | iv_m thats a good point | 20:16 |
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| dkrause | hmm... so what mechanism would a task use to notify a conductor of it's results? | 20:16 |
| dkrause | assuming there's no running engine | 20:16 |
| iv_m | resuming while tasks are running is on our list anyway; without it it is hard to resume e.g. worker-based engine properly | 20:17 |
| harlowja | i think there has to be a running something, either an entrypoint the tasks could call (like a rest endpoint) | 20:17 |
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| harlowja | the task finishes right now, it sends a response back to the engine via MQ (but it could send a response to some other entrypoint, that isn't an engine, but a engine-factory that would do the next execution iteration) | 20:18 |
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| harlowja | i think thats part of the mistral idea | 20:18 |
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| dkrause | if the conductor used a polling model, the results could be passed back through the queue, but that might not be what mistral is looking for | 20:19 |
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| dkrause | that is, a conductor would be required to keep engine instances (though not running ones) and have them poll for results periodically | 20:21 |
| harlowja | i think there thinking of something more like allowing some thing other than the running engine to be a results reciever, this reciever could then reconstruct the engine (that now isn't running) and figure out what to do next with whatever results were given | 20:21 |
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| harlowja | dkrause ya, it could possibly be something like that | 20:21 |
| harlowja | although i'd rather not poll if we can :-/ | 20:21 |
| iv_m | dkrause: i don't see why polling would be required | 20:22 |
| harlowja | the conductor could watch (for example) a zookeeper directory that tasks would write into and then zookeeper will notify the conductor automagically | 20:23 |
| harlowja | anyways | 20:24 |
| harlowja | lots of ideas :) | 20:24 |
| iv_m | afaik mistral exposes http entry point for workers to report to; our worker-based engine does pretty much the same but with amqp | 20:24 |
| harlowja | iv_m right | 20:24 |
| iv_m | * or kombu virtual transports | 20:24 |
| harlowja | right | 20:24 |
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| iv_m | i wrote some thoughs on 'lazy engine' idea to ML about an hour ago | 20:25 |
| harlowja | ah, k, will check | 20:25 |
| iv_m | i short, i don't think engine interface should be affected | 20:25 |
| harlowja | hmmm, intersting | 20:25 |
| iv_m | instead, we might refactor and make task executors public | 20:25 |
| harlowja | not something like run_iter() | 20:26 |
| harlowja | that could be useful (maybe) | 20:26 |
| iv_m | run_iter looks too internal | 20:26 |
| iv_m | i think i would like to see separation of concens | 20:26 |
| harlowja | kk, will checkout ML | 20:27 |
| iv_m | one concern is to run a flow -- prepare tasks and patterns, load it to engine, and so on | 20:27 |
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| iv_m | maybe we'll need API to 'run and forget' -- a call that will schedule a flow but not wait for completion | 20:27 |
| iv_m | another concern is executing tasks | 20:27 |
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| iv_m | task executors don't need to know anything about flows or engines or engine internals | 20:28 |
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| harlowja | intersting, will think it over | 20:29 |
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| dkrause | I definitely like the idea of a decoupled task executor | 20:30 |
| iv_m | executors may be shared between engines and just colling provided callbacks, or setting resutls to futures which is pretty much same thing but with somewhat different implications | 20:30 |
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| iv_m | i think i'll try to experiment with callback-based task executor interface on weekend | 20:31 |
| dkrause | I don't see how this will help with the problem that our current engine model is synchronous | 20:31 |
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| dkrause | "run" is expected to return only after a completed flow | 20:32 |
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| dkrause | how are we going to accomplish a "lazy engine" with this model? | 20:32 |
| iv_m | as i said above, what whe might need is just something like 'run_async' in engine interface that schedules the flow but not waits for its completion -- e. g. retuns future, or we can just rely on notifications | 20:33 |
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| iv_m | that can be easily done even with current engines | 20:33 |
| iv_m | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/taskflow/+spec/share-engine-thread related to that | 20:34 |
| harlowja | so run_async returns future, then mistral can basically throw that future away if it wants? | 20:34 |
| harlowja | and just wait for some notifications to do more actions? | 20:34 |
| harlowja | *whatever those actions are* | 20:35 |
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| harlowja | hmmm, i wonder how this would work, if mistral also replaces task_executors with something of its own | 20:36 |
| iv_m | smooooothly;) | 20:36 |
| harlowja | ;) | 20:36 |
| harlowja | maybe i guess a small example code would make it more clear | 20:36 |
| harlowja | i sorta get the idea (maybe), ha | 20:37 |
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| iv_m | ok | 20:37 |
| harlowja | dkrause sounds ok? maybe more clear with some code ;) | 20:37 |
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| iv_m | #action iv_m describe idea on lazy engine with executors on wiki or somewhere, with code examples if possible | 20:38 |
| harlowja | sounds great | 20:38 |
| harlowja | thx iv_m :) | 20:38 |
| dkrause | yeah, I'd like to see details on how callbacks are handled - it sounds good, but there are some pieces that are unclear to me | 20:38 |
| harlowja | agreed, i'll have to let my brain think it over a little to | 20:39 |
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| iv_m | well, i guess when all pieces are cleare all's left is to press couple of gerrit buttons | 20:39 |
| harlowja | +2 | 20:39 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:39 |
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| harlowja | hopefully the mistral peopel can get involved in coding this to, that'd be nice | 20:40 |
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| harlowja | alright, lets openup for anything else | 20:41 |
| harlowja | #topic open-discuss | 20:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open-discuss (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)" | 20:41 | |
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| harlowja | dkrause another idea we've been thinking about is instead of doing iterjobs and such, we should also provide such callback interface to be notified of new jobs appearing | 20:42 |
| harlowja | just didn't get around to it for 0.2 | 20:42 |
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| harlowja | i think that'd probably be useful for your case | 20:42 |
| dkrause | it definitely would | 20:42 |
| harlowja | to avoid all the looping crap | 20:42 |
| harlowja | k | 20:42 |
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| harlowja | let me see if i can expose that, although i'm not sure how something like redis would work in this manner | 20:42 |
| harlowja | zookeeper has 'watches' that can provide this, but redis or others not really sure | 20:43 |
| dkrause | which brings up the question: is this actually a "conductor", or is that concept entirely different from what I proposed here? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/taskflow/+spec/generic-flow-conductor | 20:43 |
| harlowja | hmmm, it seems like a conductor to me, although naming isn't my strong suit :) | 20:43 |
| harlowja | could be called jobmanager to, but seems the same | 20:44 |
| dkrause | I feel like what I'm proposing there is very useful, but I also don't want to step on anyone's toes if we're going to define a specific role and interface for something called a conductor | 20:44 |
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| harlowja | i don't think u steping on anyones toes :) | 20:44 |
| harlowja | although nova and others have a conductor | 20:44 |
| harlowja | but in concept there's is similar | 20:44 |
| harlowja | it does some work onbehalf of others | 20:44 |
| harlowja | *conducts work on behalf of others | 20:45 |
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| harlowja | the mistral interconnect could also be a conductor, although that i think is to much unknown so far | 20:46 |
| harlowja | *whatever said mistral interconnect finally is* | 20:46 |
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| dkrause | alright. I'll keep doing what I'm doing there for now | 20:46 |
| harlowja | sounds good | 20:47 |
| harlowja | #action harlowja writeup small bp for jobboard 'notification' (not always requiring iteration) | 20:47 |
| harlowja | #action harlowja implement that, ha | 20:47 |
| harlowja | cool, anything else to sync up on? | 20:47 |
| harlowja | remember switch to 1900 UTC if we need further meetings so that iv_m can sleep more | 20:48 |
| harlowja | gooing once | 20:48 |
| iv_m | #info state management meeting moved to Thu, 1900 UTC | 20:49 |
| harlowja | thx :) | 20:49 |
| * iv_m always wanted to try that command =) | 20:49 | |
| harlowja | going twiiiceeee | 20:49 |
| harlowja | and sold to iv_m | 20:49 |
| harlowja | #endmeeting | 20:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:49 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 3 20:49:40 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:49 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_state_management/2014/openstack_state_management.2014-04-03-20.03.html | 20:49 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_state_management/2014/openstack_state_management.2014-04-03-20.03.txt | 20:49 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_state_management/2014/openstack_state_management.2014-04-03-20.03.log.html | 20:49 |
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| mtreinish | #startmeeting qa | 22:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 3 22:00:14 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mtreinish. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: qa)" | 22:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'qa' | 22:00 |
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| mtreinish | hi who do we have here today? | 22:00 |
| sdague | o/ | 22:00 |
| maurosr | o/ | 22:00 |
| masayukig | hi | 22:00 |
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| zhikunliu | o/ | 22:00 |
| mtreinish | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/QATeamMeeting | 22:00 |
| mtreinish | ^^^ Today's agenda | 22:00 |
| dkranz | o/ | 22:01 |
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| mtreinish | ok lets get started | 22:01 |
| mtreinish | #topic Summit sessions (mtreinish) | 22:01 |
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| cyeoh | o/ | 22:02 |
| mtreinish | so I started an etherpad to track design summit proposals: | 22:02 |
| mtreinish | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Juno-QA-design-summit-topics | 22:02 |
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| mtreinish | I thought it would be good to do what we did last cycle and have a discussion in the meeting about the sessions | 22:02 |
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| sdague | what else has been submitted into the tool? | 22:03 |
| mtreinish | so if people had ideas for a summit session if you could put them in the etherpad | 22:03 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: right now there are only 2 | 22:03 |
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| sdague | probably worth transposing them to the etherpad | 22:03 |
| mtreinish | "A case for project level functional testing" and "Rally & Tempest integration (future steps)" | 22:03 |
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| sdague | the first one sounds like an overlap of the one dkranz put in | 22:04 |
| dkranz | sdague: It is | 22:04 |
| dkranz | sdague: I didn't know about the others | 22:04 |
| dkranz | sdague: My bad | 22:04 |
| sdague | dkranz: no worries | 22:04 |
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| cyeoh | I guess we should talk about how we can reduce the code overlap between v2 and v3 tests, but I doubt we need whole session on that | 22:04 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: http://summit.openstack.org/cfp/details/134 | 22:04 |
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| sdague | cyeoh: well, a refactoring for maintainability session might be good | 22:05 |
| sdague | include that | 22:05 |
| mtreinish | cyeoh: yeah probably not, but it could be part of a larger session | 22:05 |
| sdague | plus other items people have | 22:05 |
| sdague | I still kind of want to do the nice skip decorators, but that's back burner | 22:05 |
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| mtreinish | so anyway if people have ideas if they can put them on the etherpad and we'll go through it in a couple of weeks during the meeting | 22:06 |
| sdague | yeh, probably plan for 3 weeks out | 22:06 |
| sdague | as decision time | 22:06 |
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| * mtreinish needs to look at a calendar | 22:06 | |
| mtreinish | ok that's all I had to talk about on this for now | 22:06 |
| mtreinish | so let's move on | 22:07 |
| mtreinish | #topic Blueprints | 22:07 |
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| mtreinish | so sdague why don't you start of on the specs stuff | 22:07 |
| sdague | sure | 22:07 |
| sdague | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/qa-specs,n,z | 22:07 |
| sdague | there are the open specs we currently have | 22:07 |
| sdague | currently all of qa-core has +2 rights, which I think is right | 22:08 |
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| sdague | though we should probably by convention let the PTL do +A | 22:08 |
| sdague | just to make sure they are in on the vote | 22:08 |
| sdague | or ack it | 22:08 |
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| sdague | I think right now we have one that's fully ready | 22:09 |
| sdague | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/83264/ | 22:09 |
| sdague | and I went through the rest of them and provided some feedback on additions | 22:09 |
| cyeoh | +1 for the +A policy | 22:09 |
| sdague | anyone have objectsions to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/83264/ ? | 22:09 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: I hope not it's mostly implemented :) | 22:09 |
| sdague | otherwise I'll land that one as our first one | 22:10 |
| sdague | ok, done | 22:10 |
| dkranz | sdague: No, but should this include an 'admin' tag or is that a different bp? | 22:10 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: this is just the service tagging | 22:10 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: ok | 22:10 |
| mtreinish | like compute, image, etc... | 22:10 |
| sdague | dkranz: I think admin clean is a different qa-spec | 22:10 |
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| sdague | can you do a draft on that? | 22:10 |
| mtreinish | which all thats left on is going through and finding where we need to tag things | 22:11 |
| sdague | I know you were very interested in that yesterday | 22:11 |
| dkranz | sdague: Yes | 22:11 |
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| cyeoh | re: 83264 can you do a hacking check to see if someone does add a service name which does exist in the path | 22:12 |
| sdague | #action dkranz to draft no admin qa-spec | 22:12 |
| cyeoh | and flag an error if it occurs? Just to save inconsistencies creeping in accidentally | 22:12 |
| mtreinish | cyeoh: was that not in there. I intend to it came up during the spec review | 22:12 |
| cyeoh | mtreinish: cool! | 22:12 |
| mtreinish | or I thought it did | 22:12 |
| sdague | well, if not, we can always do an ammendment :) | 22:12 |
| mtreinish | no it's in there L52 | 22:13 |
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| mtreinish | it's just not a work item... | 22:13 |
| sdague | cyeoh, dkranz: would you guys mind doing a run through the existing specs and providing comments as well | 22:13 |
| sdague | I'd like to get us used to this model of making sure we have bases covered | 22:13 |
| dkranz | sdague: Will do | 22:13 |
| cyeoh | sdague: ok | 22:14 |
| sdague | fortunately we've only got a few, so it's pretty quick | 22:14 |
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| mtreinish | I'm also going get the infra side setup soon | 22:14 |
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| sdague | #action sdague to reset all non high blueprints, point people at qa-specs | 22:14 |
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| mtreinish | so we'll publish the specs somewhere | 22:14 |
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| mtreinish | when they get merged | 22:14 |
| sdague | mtreinish: I'm not sure why | 22:14 |
| mtreinish | it looks pretty | 22:15 |
| sdague | I really feel like the specs are ok in git | 22:15 |
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| sdague | because the blueprint is really the entry point | 22:15 |
| cyeoh | having read through a few long nova ones, I think its easier to read in processed html | 22:15 |
| sdague | cyeoh: ok | 22:15 |
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| sdague | then I'll defer | 22:15 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: ok is there anything else to discuss on the specs? | 22:16 |
| sdague | only one last thing | 22:16 |
| sdague | I feel like we should have ~4 specs landed as examples before we open this up to the wide world via ML | 22:16 |
| sdague | so will hold off a few | 22:17 |
| sdague | ok, done, we can move on | 22:17 |
| mtreinish | that seems fair | 22:17 |
| mtreinish | ok then let's discuss bps in progress | 22:17 |
| mtreinish | zhikunliu: you put something on the agenda | 22:17 |
| zhikunliu | yes | 22:18 |
| zhikunliu | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tempest/+spec/cinder-v2-api-tests | 22:18 |
| mtreinish | go ahead | 22:18 |
| mtreinish | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tempest/+spec/cinder-v2-api-tests | 22:18 |
| zhikunliu | we have already create basic cinder v2 tests. Not sure if we should continue to port v1 tests to v2 like nova v2 to v3 | 22:18 |
| mtreinish | zhikunliu: how much duplication is there between v1 and v2? | 22:19 |
| mtreinish | we want to have good coverage for both | 22:19 |
| zhikunliu | about 10 test files | 22:20 |
| mtreinish | cyeoh and ken1ohmichi have been more plugged in with the nova v2 v3 stuff so they may have some advice | 22:20 |
| ken1ohmichi | OK, I will see cinder API tests. | 22:20 |
| zhikunliu | thank you! | 22:21 |
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| ken1ohmichi | np:) | 22:21 |
| mtreinish | zhikunliu: so we want to exercise both the v1 and v2 apis. It's just a question of we go about implementing that. Inheritance vs 2 copies for example | 22:21 |
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| cyeoh | yea I guess it comes down to how similar the APIs look - we tried along the way but weren't that succesfull, but ken1ohmichi has some examples of a direction we'll probably take | 22:21 |
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| sdague | yeh, the nova v2 api is exceptionally odd though | 22:22 |
| sdague | maybe we can do better here | 22:22 |
| ken1ohmichi | yes, the sample is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/78137/ | 22:22 |
| sdague | so I would honestly really encourage this to take place in a qa-spec - https://github.com/openstack/qa-specs because I think that provides a really good way of reviewing the approach | 22:22 |
| sdague | and then we can all be agreed on approach and just review for correctness | 22:23 |
| ken1ohmichi | I got it. I will propose it to qa-specs | 22:23 |
| ken1ohmichi | as the one of the samples:) | 22:23 |
| cyeoh | +1, though I don't think it hurts to have a bit of POC code to point to | 22:23 |
| sdague | ken1ohmichi: great | 22:23 |
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| sdague | cyeoh: agreed | 22:23 |
| mtreinish | zhikunliu: ok is there anything else on that bp? | 22:24 |
| zhikunliu | no, thanks... | 22:24 |
| mtreinish | ok does anyone have any other bps they'd like to bring up? | 22:24 |
| sdague | if not, I'd actually like to jump to the tempest branch discussion | 22:25 |
| sdague | because I want to make sure we give that enough time, for folks that we're in -qa channel yesterday to see it | 22:25 |
| dkranz | sdague: I think I got through classifying about half of the failures | 22:25 |
| mtreinish | ok then let's move onto that | 22:25 |
| mtreinish | #topic Tempest branching strategy | 22:25 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: you've got the floor | 22:26 |
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| sdague | so background | 22:26 |
| sdague | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-qa/%23openstack-qa.2014-04-02.log | 22:26 |
| sdague | starting at about 2014-04-02T13:29:08 | 22:26 |
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| sdague | a question came up about the state of tempest as a validation tool for the openstack brand | 22:27 |
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| sdague | and out of that conversation I asked the question: does tempest really need branches? | 22:27 |
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| sdague | because it *should* be testing an API that is invariant between releases | 22:28 |
| dkranz | sdague: I think it needs versions, not branches, like client libraries. | 22:28 |
| sdague | or changed in ways that are detectable/flaggable | 22:28 |
| sdague | dkranz: sure, lets get to that in a sec | 22:28 |
| sdague | we have 2 weeks before we would normally set the stable/icehouse branch | 22:28 |
| sdague | so now is the time to decide if maybe we don't | 22:29 |
| sdague | and use master tempest on stable/icehouse and master going forward, and try to get tempest master to work against stable/havana | 22:29 |
| cyeoh | so I'm not saying I'm opposed to it, but my concern is if we branch of the overhead of adding new tests | 22:29 |
| cyeoh | having to add them to multiple branches if we want to use them as a validation tool | 22:30 |
| sdague | cyeoh: vs. the cost of backporting them? | 22:30 |
| sdague | because thinks like defcore/refstack are going to lag | 22:30 |
| sdague | at icehouse summit they are going to put out a havana based tool | 22:30 |
| sdague | which vendors will want to fix | 22:30 |
| cyeoh | they are going to want to fix the tool? | 22:31 |
| dkranz | cyeoh: The tool is going to run tempest | 22:31 |
| sdague | I am sure they will object to some results | 22:31 |
| cyeoh | ok | 22:31 |
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| sdague | and they may be correct in tempest fixes that should land, and then backport | 22:31 |
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| sdague | the reason we set a branch today is because until this release we didn't have a feature enable mechanism | 22:32 |
| sdague | so branch was a giant feature flag | 22:32 |
| mtreinish | sdague: well we did but it was a mess | 22:32 |
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| sdague | havana nova supports X | 22:32 |
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| sdague | icehouse nova support X + Y | 22:33 |
| sdague | however the feature flag model should mean that new extensions just come in under a feature flag, for instance | 22:33 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: so the prereq for this on devstack as I said yesterday | 22:33 |
| dkranz | sdague: The big advantage of running master is that adding tests always lags the release | 22:33 |
| sdague | correct | 22:33 |
| mtreinish | we have to make sure we lock the feature set in the devstack config for stable/icehouse | 22:34 |
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| dkranz | sdague: RIght not there are many tests in master that can and should run when testing havana | 22:34 |
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| dkranz | sdague: And many that don't due to questionable api changes | 22:34 |
| sdague | dkranz: sure | 22:34 |
| cyeoh | so just to clarify for me how this would work - if we add Nova API V2 tests during Juno, what would we have to do to ensure they are added for both Juno Nova API testing as well as say Icehouse | 22:34 |
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| sdague | tempest master would gate on master and stable/icehouse of all the server projects | 22:35 |
| mtreinish | cyeoh: but they should given the stable api :) | 22:35 |
| dkranz | cyeoh: I would say they should run on both by default | 22:35 |
| cyeoh | dkranz: yep that's what I'd like the default to be | 22:35 |
| cyeoh | mtreinish: yea, they *should* :-) | 22:35 |
| sdague | I've been working on devstack gate branch overrides that would let us specify that behavior | 22:35 |
| dkranz | cyeoh: And if a test doesn't run due to a havana bug that was fixed iceshouse we tag it as >havana | 22:35 |
| sdague | cyeoh: so it will only be 1 add to tempest | 22:36 |
| sdague | and it will gate on both branches | 22:36 |
| sdague | so you know if it works or not | 22:36 |
| cyeoh | sdague: ok, sounds great then :-) | 22:36 |
| dkranz | sdague: So are we going to double the gate jobs ? | 22:36 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: we have to | 22:36 |
| sdague | for tempest | 22:36 |
| dkranz | sdague: Actually triple since havana + icehouse + master | 22:36 |
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| dkranz | sdague: That is my biggest concern with this approach | 22:36 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: this will only be for icehouse forward | 22:36 |
| sdague | it's only on tempest | 22:37 |
| dkranz | sdague: Ah, ok | 22:37 |
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| sdague | mtreinish: I think getting havana over is still on the table | 22:37 |
| sdague | depending on how much work it is | 22:37 |
| mtreinish | it is but the discussion now is about what we do on the 17th | 22:37 |
| mtreinish | we still have the havana branch whether we like it or not | 22:37 |
| sdague | right, for the 17th, it would be just icehouse + master | 22:37 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: I don't see why we have to commit | 22:37 |
| sdague | agreed | 22:37 |
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| sdague | I'll put the havana jobs on nv, and if we get it working, we'll delete the havana branch, and win | 22:38 |
| sdague | if not | 22:38 |
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| sdague | it ages out in 5 months | 22:38 |
| dkranz | sdague: But it can't if refstack is using it | 22:38 |
| dkranz | sdague: I mean can't age out | 22:39 |
| sdague | havana still stops being supported in 5 months | 22:39 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: havana goes eol in 5 months | 22:39 |
| sdague | openstack policy hasn't changed in that regard | 22:39 |
| mtreinish | we just did it for grizzly | 22:39 |
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| dkranz | sdague: That doesn't mean refstack will stop using it. Have you told them this intent? | 22:39 |
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| dkranz | sdague: Cause it makes no sense from their standpoint | 22:39 |
| dkranz | sdague: Of course it could just be cloned into a refstack repo at that point. | 22:40 |
| sdague | dkranz: honestly, I'm not policing them, I have lots of other things to do :) | 22:40 |
| dkranz | sdague: RIght :) | 22:40 |
| dkranz | sdague: Based on my results so far I think it is very doable to get master to work with havana | 22:40 |
| sdague | ken1ohmichi, masayukig any thoughts on this one? I'd like to know if there are other problems we haven't thought about yet | 22:40 |
| sdague | dkranz: great | 22:41 |
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| dkranz | sdague: We just need a tagging strategy for the breaks due to bug fixes in icehouse and api changes | 22:41 |
| sdague | I should have gate jobs running nv tomorrow that will let us do that | 22:41 |
| sdague | dkranz: example? | 22:41 |
| dkranz | sdague: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/master-against-havana-errors | 22:41 |
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| ken1ohmichi | honestly, I am not familar with refstack. | 22:42 |
| sdague | dkranz: I was wondering about "tagging strategy" | 22:42 |
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| sdague | ken1ohmichi: refstack is basically a website that some foundation folks will run where you can submit tempest tests | 22:42 |
| dkranz | ken1ohmichi: It is the "use tempest to gate use of OpenStack trademark" | 22:42 |
| sdague | test results | 22:43 |
| sdague | for your product | 22:43 |
| sdague | as a piece of trademark use policy | 22:43 |
| sdague | they are still working out all the trademark details | 22:43 |
| dkranz | sdague: about tagging strategy, I think we should have a tag saying a test is enabled as of some version | 22:43 |
| sdague | running a subset of tempest successfully will be a part of what you need to do to get the trademark | 22:43 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: that should be handled by config | 22:43 |
| sdague | right, I agree with mtreinish | 22:44 |
| ken1ohmichi | oh, thanks. I got it little. | 22:44 |
| maurosr | sdague: one thing that came to my mind is the maintenance burden, like in this situation we cant remove nova's xml tests | 22:44 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: how? some of the tests have different havana/icehouse behavior due to api change | 22:44 |
| maurosr | (not sure if you guys touched this matter, lost my connection) | 22:44 |
| masayukig | sdague: Does refstack still uses grizzly? | 22:44 |
| sdague | maurosr: that's true, at least not for a while | 22:44 |
| sdague | masayukig: they are building on havana atm | 22:44 |
| sdague | from what I understand | 22:44 |
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| mtreinish | dkranz: well those types of changes will be blocked by tempest in the first place | 22:45 |
| mtreinish | it really only becomes a problem for when we add new test coverage | 22:45 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: which we did in icehouse | 22:45 |
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| maurosr | since api changes are not supposed to happen I guess that is a 'good break' | 22:45 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: And the tests were not blocked. We changed them. | 22:45 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: YOu can see examples in that etherpad | 22:46 |
| maurosr | it's something that maybe cant work planty right now, but will be good at long term | 22:46 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: yes because we default everything on everywhere | 22:46 |
| mtreinish | but if we have a static set of what's expected in devstack for icehouse | 22:46 |
| mtreinish | then those new tests won't run | 22:46 |
| sdague | dkranz: there are definitely details here on what the 2 step is, but I think those are doable | 22:46 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: But why shouldn't a new test for a stable API in a previous version run? | 22:46 |
| dkranz | against the old version | 22:47 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: I agree we can do better icehouse->juno | 22:47 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: it should but we'd need a devstack change to add it to the stable job (it's just a shift in the 2 step) | 22:47 |
| sdague | so I think what we probably want to do is after stable/icehouse on devstack is set | 22:47 |
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| sdague | we generate the full extension list and hardcode it in devstack stable/icehouse | 22:47 |
| sdague | but it floats on master | 22:47 |
| sdague | so stuff is auto added | 22:48 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: exactly | 22:48 |
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| sdague | but that's actually after the 17th | 22:48 |
| mtreinish | yeah it would have to be because we need the stable branch on devstack | 22:48 |
| dkranz | sdague: That's fine but half the problem. The other part is stuff that actually changed, or that works in icehouse but not havana due to an unfixed bug in havana | 22:48 |
| sdague | dkranz: sure | 22:48 |
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| dkranz | sdague: At a minimum we could just skip all the fails I found for havana. | 22:48 |
| dkranz | sdague: That would be a better test than what is on stable/havana now. | 22:49 |
| sdague | well, I don't want to branch skip | 22:49 |
| sdague | I think that logic gets nutty | 22:49 |
| sdague | so we either fix it, feature flag it, or the job doesn't vote | 22:49 |
| dkranz | sdague: Why? We just classify the test as belonging to a new feature. Just a funny one. | 22:49 |
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| sdague | because we're already going to have 200 features | 22:50 |
| sdague | that are real ones | 22:50 |
| dkranz | sdague: And this would be one more. | 22:50 |
| sdague | I think if we invent funny ones that we can't double check on real extension lists we're going to get it wrong | 22:50 |
| sdague | there is a big who watches the watcher thing here | 22:50 |
| dkranz | sdague: Anyway, the goal is to run master against havana with as many tests as we can get to work. | 22:51 |
| dkranz | sdague: We need to figure the details but not right now. | 22:51 |
| sdague | sure | 22:51 |
| ken1ohmichi | sdague: the extension list means API list? | 22:51 |
| sdague | ken1ohmichi: yes | 22:51 |
| mtreinish | ken1ohmichi: yeah it's the api_extensions config option | 22:51 |
| dkranz | sdague: What I am talking about is more like bug skipping than feature config. | 22:51 |
| ken1ohmichi | sdague: ok, masayukig has automatic API list feature on gerrit as you know. | 22:52 |
| sdague | dkranz: yep, I know, but it complicates things when you need to do branch selection | 22:52 |
| ken1ohmichi | sdague: will it be useful it? | 22:52 |
| sdague | because tempest doesn't know that | 22:52 |
| sdague | ken1ohmichi: I don't know, that's a good question | 22:52 |
| dkranz | sdague: no, you would have to tell it. I will propose something when I get through the list. | 22:52 |
| *** marun_afk is now known as marun | 22:52 | |
| sdague | I think not exactly here | 22:52 |
| mtreinish | ken1ohmichi: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/tempest/tree/tools/verify_tempest_config.py#n88 | 22:53 |
| mtreinish | that's all we need for this | 22:53 |
| mtreinish | more or less | 22:53 |
| sdague | ok, any other thoughts on this? | 22:54 |
| mtreinish | sdague: you should probably send something out the ML announcing this change | 22:54 |
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| ken1ohmichi | mtreinish: thanks:) | 22:54 |
| sdague | mtreinish: yeh, I want to get the first data results tomorrow before hand to make sure the jobs are even doable :) | 22:54 |
| sdague | but then I will | 22:54 |
| sdague | #action sdague to bring up branchless tempest on mailing list | 22:55 |
| sdague | ok, so in the 5 minutes left, I want to give an early congrats to mtreinish on being QA-PTL-elect :) | 22:55 |
| mtreinish | actually I was going to move onto critical reviews | 22:56 |
| cyeoh | mtreinish: congrats! | 22:56 |
| mtreinish | but I'm fine with that too :) | 22:56 |
| sdague | officially the hat passes at the release | 22:56 |
| sdague | so in 2 weeks | 22:56 |
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| mtreinish | thanks | 22:56 |
| sdague | so I'll try to clean up a few things before abdicating to him :) | 22:56 |
| sdague | ok, 4 minutes for critical reviews | 22:57 |
| sdague | 3 minus | 22:57 |
| mtreinish | who knows I might pull an Andrew Jackson and make you flee your house after it's official in a few hours :) | 22:57 |
| mtreinish | #topic Critical Reviews | 22:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Critical Reviews (Meeting topic: qa)" | 22:57 | |
| mtreinish | so does anyone have any reviews they want to bring up? | 22:57 |
| masayukig | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/66882/ | 22:57 |
| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/66882/ | 22:58 |
| mlavalle | Can core reviewers take a look at these neutron api tests: | 22:58 |
| mtreinish | masayukig: ooh testscenarios fun | 22:58 |
| mlavalle | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/66541 | 22:58 |
| mlavalle | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/65943 | 22:58 |
| mlavalle | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/66259 | 22:58 |
| mtreinish | mlavalle: sure | 22:59 |
| mlavalle | thanks! | 22:59 |
| sdague | ok, I think we are out of time | 22:59 |
| masayukig | mtreinish: Separate the class vs Merge the class | 22:59 |
| mtreinish | ok thanks everyone | 22:59 |
| mtreinish | #endmeeting | 23:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 23:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 3 23:00:04 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 23:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-04-03-22.00.html | 23:00 |
| masayukig | thanks! | 23:00 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-04-03-22.00.txt | 23:00 |
| ken1ohmichi | thanks | 23:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-04-03-22.00.log.html | 23:00 |
| maurosr | tks bye | 23:00 |
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