Thursday, 2014-04-03

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Daisy_Hello, who are there for I18n meeting?07:00
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chandan_kumarDaisy_, hello07:01
Daisy_Good morning, chandan_kumar07:01
Daisy_Nice to see you here.07:01
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Daisy_I'm back. Network broken just now.07:03
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Daisy_Let's start the meeting.07:03
Daisy_#startmeeting OpenStack I18n Meeting07:03
openstackMeeting started Thu Apr  3 07:03:30 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Daisy_. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.07:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n Meeting)"07:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_i18n_meeting'07:03
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Daisy_Hello, everybody. I have to check again who are around. Just now my network is broken. I don't know if I missed somebody.07:04
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Daisy_chandan_kumar: I know you are there.07:04
jpichHi o/07:04
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Daisy_Good morning, jpich07:04
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Daisy_Good. We have three people. :)07:05
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Daisy_First, let's have a discussion about how to encourage more people to join IRC meeting. :)07:05
Daisy_Hi, epico.07:05
FdotHi Daisy_07:06
Daisy_Hi, Fdot ! Nice to see you.07:06
FdotNice to see you too :)07:06
jpichMaybe trying different times? And sending reminders on the list one or two days before?07:06
Daisy_Last time, on UTC 0000, there are only epico and me.07:07
Fdotjpich: +1 ;)07:07
epicoDaisy_, yeah07:07
Daisy_Fdot, are you OK with this time slot?07:07
Fdotreminder could be a good idea07:07
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Fdotit is a little bit early for me :)07:07
jpichThe wiki page at also says "next meeting on November 21st", maybe people think the meeting is not happening anymore07:07
Fdot30 minutes should be better07:07
Daisy_Good suggestion.07:07
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jpichThis time slot is a bit early for me too, but I can't make 0000UTC at all so it's still better :)07:07
Daisy_Fdot, do you mean we have only 30 minutes meeting?07:08
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Fdotsorry forgot a word :D07:08
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Fdot30 minutes later could be better :D07:08
Daisy_I know, 0000UTC is not avaialbe for Fdot, and jpich.07:08
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Daisy_ok. No problem for me.07:08
Daisy_I can arrange it one hour later.07:08
Daisy_We have three suggestions: update the wiki page, send to ML early to remind, move this time slot one hour later.07:09
Daisy_How do you think the topics?07:09
Daisy_How can we find more interesting topics?07:10
Fdotok for me :)07:10
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Daisy_I think there are some topics we can discuss in ML.07:10
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Daisy_What do Horizon team usually do, jpich?07:11
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Daisy_I mean, about to choose topics to discuss in the IRC other than ML.07:11
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jpichDaisy_: We don't always have an agenda, but people often come with questions. Maybe it's not totally clear to the i18n team members that it's ok to come to the meeting to ask questions and solve problems together, too? (people might not be aware of this)07:12
jpichIncluding an "Open Discussion" item in the agenda07:12
jpichWe also usually start the meeting with a status report from the meeting chair to remind of the important dates07:12
jpichand celebrate what we've accomplished so far07:13
jpichGood for team spirit :-)07:13
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Daisy_Yes. I feel the IRC meeting is good for my spirit too. It's so nice to talk with you in IRC meeting.07:13
jpichStatus is very helpful when coming close to milestones, feature freeze, RC and releases07:13
Daisy_OK. then we have another suggestion: include "open discussion" and encourage people to come with questions.07:14
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jpichDaisy_: Agreed :) The translation channel doesn't have a lot of people so there are not many other opportunities for discussing directly07:14
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Daisy_Nice suggestion, jpich.07:14
Daisy_Any others?07:14
Daisy_If no, I will give you a status update about our translation.07:15
Fdotno others suggestion for me ;)07:15
Daisy_Thanks, Fdot.07:16
Daisy_Now status update.07:16
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Daisy_Horizon RC1 is shipped. Now we have 12 languages completed the translation.07:16
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Daisy_Among 12 langauges, German is new to Horizon release.07:17
Daisy_Russian and Serbian are hurry up their progress. I think Russian could finish it on time. Not sure of Serbian.07:17
Daisy_Installation guide publishing is under progress. This week, we are solving a Korean font issue.07:17
Daisy_If you want to add your language font , please inform me.07:18
Daisy_Fdot, does French have special font?07:18
Daisy_The font is prepared for the publish of translated documents.07:19
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FdotDaisy_: no :)07:19
Fdotwe are using standard fonts07:19
Daisy_The maven tool only supports a few languages, but it allow us to use local languages. So we need to download font files to local sever.07:19
Daisy_chandan_kumar: does your language have special fonts?07:20
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Daisy_Fdot, I'm going to publish the translated installation guide. We have Japanese and Korean version. Chinese version and German version are under processing.07:20
jpichAbout Horizon RC1, note that the translations didn't make it into RC1 but will be part of RC2. amotoki is working with david-lyle, the Horizon PTL to make sure the translation patch merges on time. The current plan is to post the translation update on Monday 0000UTC07:21
Daisy_I remember French team have asked a company's help to do the translation.07:21
Daisy_Thank you for the update, jpich.07:21
FdotDaisy_: yes with Cloudwatt07:21
doronSysinfo for 'doron-laptop2': Linux 3.12.6-gentoo running KDE Development Platform 4.11.5, CPU: Intel(R) Core i7-3520M CPU @ 2.90GHz at 2901 MHz (5786 bogomips), HD: 100/428GB, RAM: 10493/11701MB, 196 proc's, 20.20d up07:21
Daisy_Fdot, is it possible to publish some  French documents?07:21
Daisy_to the docs.
Fdotbut because of the havana doc refactoring we have lost most of the works done07:22
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Fdotso unfortunatly no :(07:22
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Daisy_ok. No problem. When you are ready, let me know.07:22
Fdotbut there is still employee from µCloudwatt working on translation07:22
chandan_kumarDaisy_, we have devanagari fonts07:22
Fdoton the havana translation and the common part for the manual07:23
Daisy_I know you are not using PO files. It's difficult to import to Transifex.07:23
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Daisy_chandan_kumar: Got it. I think, when it's time to publish documents in your language, we need to add this font to the local server.07:24
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Daisy_Fdot, when you are ready, let me know. Let's figure out together about how to publish the translations, even we don't have PO and we don't use Transifex.07:25
chandan_kumarDaisy_, ok,07:25
FdotDaisy_: the translation has been done last august and there is too many difference now07:25
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Fdotwhat we do now07:26
Fdotwe translate directly in transifex and use the work done when we found a part which didn't change07:26
Daisy_What file format do you use to translate?07:26
Fdotthe translation has been done into word documents07:26
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Daisy_It's hard. Does the translation have only French or have one paragraph French followed with one paragraph English ?07:27
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Fdotunder the docs documents ?07:28
chandan_kumarDaisy_, Fdot you can use Lokalize for offline translation. < >07:28
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Fdotchandan_kumar: you can import word document ?07:29
chandan_kumarFdot, never tried07:29
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FdotI am going to test :)07:29
Fdotthanks a lot for the suggestion07:29
Daisy_Yes, Fdot. Usually, when I translate English into Chinese in words, I will add a new paragraph after an English paragraph and input Chinese translation. Then I move to another paragraph.07:30
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Daisy_Great, chandan_kumar07:30
Fdotok i am going to test :)07:31
Daisy_chandan_kumar opened another topic I'm going to mention.07:31
Daisy_The translation tool !07:31
Daisy_Now we are using Transifex.07:31
Daisy_But there are some voices to leave Transifex within OpenStack community.07:32
Daisy_I don't hear such voices from our translators.07:32
chandan_kumarThere are lots of tools, like poedit, gtranslator, vitraal.07:32
chandan_kumarbut in these Lokalize is best one07:32
epicoand zanata.07:33
Fdottransifex is good for team working07:33
Daisy_The openstack-infra hopes to host a translation platform for Openstack translation, because Transifex has closed its source codes.07:33
Fdotand collaborating07:33
chandan_kumarTransifex is the best translation tool as right now07:33
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chandan_kumarDaisy_, Zanata is the next one07:33
epicochandan_kumar, +1 !07:34
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Daisy_we need to do an evaluation.07:34
chandan_kumarDaisy_, we have done an evaluation earlier on tools07:34
Fdotwith transifex it is now possible to connect with translation services like textmaster07:34
Fdotwhich is useful for translation or review07:34
Daisy_There are some concerns that sometimes Transifex would not open its services freely.07:35
Daisy_Transifex would become an commercial software.07:35
Daisy_Nobody knows when it would happen, just worry about it.07:35
Daisy_Pootle, Zanata and translatewiki, we have compared these three tools.07:36
Daisy_6 month ago.07:36
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Daisy_During the last summit, there was no conclusion that whether we move away from Transifex and which new tool we should move to.07:37
chandan_kumarlots of development has been already done with these tools07:37
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Daisy_Yes, chandan_kumar07:37
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Daisy_We should review these tools again.07:37
chandan_kumarDaisy_, you have taken my words :)07:37
Daisy_I need help !07:38
Daisy_I think, we could brainstorming tool candidates.07:38
Daisy_Then we brainstorm the requirements we want.07:38
Daisy_Then we do an evaluation.07:39
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Daisy_Maybe we come up with a list of tool candidates today.07:39
Daisy_We may not want a long list. Let's brainstorm the best open source tools for translation.07:40
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Daisy_Pootle, Zanata and translatewiki. Anything else?07:40
Daisy_There are so quiet...07:42
chandan_kumari think only 3 tools are available in open Source07:42
Daisy_ok. chandan_kumar07:42
Daisy_As to translation tools, you know more than me.07:42
chandan_kumarDaisy_, yes , i can provide a list of available tools for translation07:43
Daisy_chandan_kumar, among these three tools, which one are you familiar with?07:43
Daisy_chandan_kumar, I need open source translation tools.07:43
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Daisy_If still not open source, we have no reason to move away from Transifex.07:44
chandan_kumari am familiar with Pootle, my friends are familiar with zanata and translatewiki.net07:44
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* Fdot is agree with Daisy_07:44
chandan_kumari am familar with Lokalize07:44
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Daisy_The infrastructure team has helped to set up a Pootle test website.07:45
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chandan_kumarDaisy_, let us sett up all the three instances and use it and then compare ?07:46
chandan_kumarinstance = translation tool07:46
Daisy_we have pootle now. I think, Zanata has on line version. Mediawiki, the wiki used by openstack community, supports translate wiki.07:46
Daisy_First, let's revise the feature lists we want.07:47
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Daisy_I will send a mail to ML, and welcome all of the inputs.07:47
Daisy_Then we will have people to do the evaluation.07:48
Daisy_OK, friends.07:48
chandan_kumarFdot, Zanata has a feature to import word document for translation07:49
epicochandan_kumar, cool07:49
Daisy_I have done all of my words.07:49
Fdotchandan_kumar: cool :) I have to test it too!07:50
Daisy_now it's for open discussions.07:50
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Daisy_If no, we will close the meeting now.07:51
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chandan_kumarDaisy_, if i complete hindi translation by monday will it get published?\07:51
Daisy_Sure, chandan_kumar07:51
Daisy_wait, wait07:51
chandan_kumarDaisy_, Thanks. :)07:51
Daisy_you mean, horizon or installation guide?07:52
Daisy_Then I think you have to do it as early as possible.07:52
epicoDaisy_, how about to use "#topic" command in meeting?07:52
Daisy_The patch for translation update will be prepared at Monday 0000UTC07:52
Daisy_Thank you for reminder, epico. I forgot.07:53
epicoDaisy_, welcome07:53
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Daisy_chandan_kumar: could you finish the translation by Monday 0000UTC?07:53
Daisy_Great !07:54
Daisy_I will let Horizon team know about it.07:54
chandan_kumarThanks :)07:54
Daisy_Great, friends.07:55
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Daisy_I will close the meeting. More discussions, let's go to our channel #openstack-translation07:55
Daisy_Thank you for attending.07:55
Daisy_Thank you for getting up early.07:55
Daisy_Next time, the meeting will be an hour later.07:56
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"07:56
openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr  3 07:56:18 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)07:56
openstackMinutes (text):
Fdotthanks !07:57
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Fdothave a good day/night ;)07:57
Daisy_Have a nice day, Fdot !07:57
FdotDaisy_: thanks :)07:57
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enikanorov_#startmeeting neutron lbaas14:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Apr  3 14:00:19 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is enikanorov_. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_lbaas'14:00
enikanorov_hi everyone14:00
sballemorning :-)14:00
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obondarevhi all14:00
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enikanorov_glad to see lots of folks here14:01
marioshi all14:01
enikanorov_let's start with one of the action items from the previous meeting14:01
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enikanorov_which was collecting cloud operator's data on demanded lb features14:02
enikanorov_i've created a wiki page, but it seems that it's not the best way of collecting such kind of data14:02
enikanorov_so please lets move to google spreadsheet:14:02
jorgemenikanorov: Yeah the google spreadsheet looks better14:02
sbalukoffSounds good.14:02
edhallgood idea14:03
enikanorov_it's quite empty at the moment, so please  ...14:03
sballeHow do you want us to fill it in?14:03
jorgemenikanorov_: I added stuff to the requirements page but I'll move it over after the meeting14:03
sballeI added stuff to the requirement page too14:03
sbalukoffWould you like us to fill out the first column with features we use? And does it make sense to collect data on features already delivered (eg. "Load balance HTTP connections")?14:04
enikanorov_jorgem: cool14:04
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enikanorov_sbalukoff: i think the main idea to know what is demanded from the features that are not there (in lbaas)14:04
rm_work|awaysbalukoff: I would assume data on ALL features, delivered or not, would be required for a big picture view14:04
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enikanorov_and since lbaas is very basic right now14:05
enikanorov_it would be almost al features possible14:05
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bloganenikanorov: do you know what the line is between what features we expect neutron lbaas to have and what features an orchestration layer should provide? (i.e.: HA could be provided by the orchestration layer, but not by the driver)14:06
tvardemanI would like to see stats on features already delivered.14:06
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jorgemThe groups I have data for so far are: protocol utilization, algorithm utilization, health monitoring utilization, connection logging utilization, ssl term utilization, and content caching utilization14:06
samuelbercovicito clarify, you want to move all items from to this spreadsheet?14:06
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enikanorov_blogan: HA will (and must) be provided by the driver14:06
bloganenikanorov: good, thank you14:06
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rm_worksamuelbercovici: i assume just stats?14:06
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enikanorov_HA is essential feature, pushing it on orchestration level means that we are making user to configure it14:07
jorgemsamuelbercovici: I was just going to move the operator data14:07
sballeenikanorov_, can we revisit the HA by the driver decision? This is a limitation and then we have to implement the same thing for each driver14:07
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enikanorov_sballe: 'same thing for each driver' is a code reuse issue. drivers actually may want to implement it differently14:08
samuelbercovicijorgem: since there is large overlap between tenant and operator, does it make sense to list an item once and then mark whether it relates to tenant, operator or both?14:08
sbalukoffsballe: I think some drivers can return a "feature not available" error or something similar for HA configurations which don't work with them?14:08
jorgemsamuelbercovici: In terms of feature usage?14:08
sbalukoffSo not every driver needs to deliver the same kind of HA.14:08
samuelbercovicijorgem: probably my confusion. the excell is only for operator feature statsitics?14:09
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sbalukoffsamuelbercovici: I would think the spreadsheet is for all features-- but yes, it probably does make sense to distinguish between user and operator features.14:09
samuelbercovicibtw, to make sure we are clear, does operator mean cloud-operator or tenant-operator? I assume cloud-operator14:09
sbalukoffThough, I think the requirements page does this already, too.14:10
sballeenikanorov_, so are you saying that if we need to use a pool of standby servers it needs to be part of the driver?14:10
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enikanorov_samuelbercovici: cloud op14:10
jorgemsamuelbercovici: Correct. Some features may not be as easy to gather stats on. However, stuff like what percentage of load balancers use SSL term vs not.14:10
vjayYes, HA should be flexible. Today we have code abstracted out of HA proxy agent to be used by other drivers. A similar thing could still happen for HA. But it should be possible for implement driver to implement it in the way it wants.14:10
enikanorov_sballe: yes.14:10
edhallThere is certainly overlap between the two14:10
aveigawhat about operators that aren't at liberty to share usage data?14:10
blogansballe: i think that makes the most sense right now14:10
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enikanorov_sballe: if this will be something that is used outside single driver - we can push it to some common place in the code tree so other drivers can reuse it14:11
sbalukoffaveiga: We'll have to make decisions without those operators' data, then. :/14:11
samuelbercovicisballe: doe you mean HA proxy is highly available or the load balanced application is highly available?14:11
jorgemaveiga: This is why we are using relative data not finite numbers14:11
edhallSince we're essentially a private cloud, "users" are typically "operators"14:11
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sballeblogan, maybe short term. I can just see that we should be able to provide the framework at the plug-in level to support this for any sw LB. Maybe introducing the notion of an admin API so we cabn manage the LB service itself14:12
aburaschiDo we already have a preferred 'common place' for common code?14:12
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samuelbercovicisballe: Is "pool of standby servers" related to the servers available to host AH proxy or the application servers load balanced by LBaaS14:13
sballesamuelbercovici, I would like the LB service to be resilient14:13
jorgemaveiga: We are trying to use data to back up requirement priorities. So if an operator really wants X feature but can't back it up with data then a decision will have to be made without it…which will be harder to accomplish than if the data is present.14:13
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samuelbercovicisballe: ok thanks14:13
sballethe pool is used to make the LBs resilient14:13
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sballesamuelbercovici, it is really a pool of standby LBs14:14
jorgemaveiga: Also, new features will most likely not have data so those will be more open to debate.14:14
enikanorov_sballe: until it's something specific to particular driver - it should be implemented there. There could be admin API however to manage that pool14:14
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sballeenikanorov_, Agreed14:14
aveigajorgem: thanks for the clarification.  I'm trying to get clearance to share, but I can't as of yet14:14
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jorgemaveiga: No worries, so did I :)14:15
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enikanorov_ok, if we're done with discussing usage data/requirements, i'd like to move to the other topic14:15
samuelbercovicienikanorov_: Assuming this is HA proxy only, than the API is something available from "HA proxy" management system14:15
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enikanorov_samuelbercovici: initially we have a proposal that any driver that needs something specific for operator, could expose API14:16
enikanorov_we had many proposals at icehouse summit, you know :)14:16
blogandoesn't that require an extension like behavior for neutron lbaas?14:16
enikanorov_blogan: it does, and even a little bit more flexible than that14:16
blogani mean an extension to the neutron lbaas extension14:16
enikanorov_it's not extension on extension, btw14:17
bloganrecursive extensions!14:17
samuelbercovicienikanorov_: if this is driver specific, it can be available directly from the driver. we can discuss this in ML.14:17
enikanorov_well, we don't have the ability to do 'available directly from the driver'14:17
enikanorov_in fact, we already have such admin API14:17
enikanorov_which is agent scheduling for haproxy14:17
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enikanorov_it's embedded into the plugin itself14:18
enikanorov_which is not good14:18
samuelbercovicienikanorov_: I agree on that14:18
sballeenikanorov_, so can we move it up sp it is a framework across all plug-ins?14:18
enikanorov_that API could be exposed by haproxy driver, and not be the plugin14:18
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enikanorov_sballe: yes, the initial proposal was like that. Btw, lbaas is not the only plugin that needs that14:19
sballeenikanorov_, agreed,14:19
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sballeenikanorov_, do you have a blueprint or so I can look at?14:19
samuelbercovicisballe: the operator API, UI and capabilities that each vendor provides are difficult to harmonize14:19
enikanorov_sballe: yes, we do. i'll find it shortly14:20
sballeenikanorov_, thx14:21
enikanorov_ok, the next topic i'd like to discuss is API14:21
enikanorov_we heard some claims that existing API is confusing/not user friendly14:22
enikanorov_so i'd like to make some introduction on this topic first14:22
jorgemcorrect and mark mcclain agreed with that14:22
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* sballe I agree too ;-)14:22
enikanorov_initially the API was made simplistic to account for the most basic features that every LB solution provides14:22
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enikanorov_so there was some simplifications all around14:23
enikanorov_one of the biggest simplification was that we made 'Pool' object - the root object14:23
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samuelbercoviciit was also required to be made cli friendly14:23
enikanorov_e.g. the object with which lb workflow starts14:23
samuelbercovicithis resulted many 1st level objects14:23
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enikanorov_'cli-friedliness' is a must basically14:23
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ptoohillwhat does 'cli-friendliness' actually mean?14:24
jorgemenikanorov_: Since tenants use the API I think it needs to be catered torward their understanding of load balancing, not operators understanding though14:24
enikanorov_ptoohill: it means that user should be able to operate the configuration on per-object basis14:24
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ptoohillah, thank you14:24
tvardeman+1 jorgem14:25
enikanorov_jorgem: well, i agree, the problem is that API is made by mortals (e.g. us) :D14:25
samuelbercoviciit also means, that cli commands should be reasonably short14:25
sballecan we ask a different question? and go top down. What does user friendly mean?14:25
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enikanorov_sballe: that's a great question14:25
enikanorov_and that's why i'd like to hear from you14:25
sballeand then figure out if it is even compatible with the model we have now?14:25
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jorgemsballe: I'll give it a shot...14:25
sballejorgem, ok14:26
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enikanorov_jorgem: please14:26
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ptoohillso, in that case, a single populated object (one call, not many) is not cli-friendly?14:27
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jorgemsballe: From our perspective we have a bunch of tenants that know they need load balancing but don't exactly understand networking at a low level. The goal for us is to make simple enough so that a first time web developer (for example) can configure their own lb but have the features that a power user would need as well.14:27
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enikanorov_ptoohill: single call could be an extra, but not the whole API14:27
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ptoohillwell of course, but to have all the features contained in the single object sounds friendly to me14:28
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jorgemjorgem: That's kind of it in a nutshell. ML might be better for this though14:28
ptoohillthen being able to modify those individually14:28
enikanorov_single call has one huuuuge issue14:28
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tvardemanptoohill: maybe not "all" but "many"14:28
sbalukoffIn other words, make the API have good defaults so a novice user can configure services, but provide enough optional arguments to a power user isn't hindered.14:28
sballejorgem, +1 very similar to our usecase. We also want the user not to worry about managing the LB so it needs to self-manage.14:28
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jorgemWe spent a lot of time on the Atlas API with this in mind.14:28
aburaschiWould that also mean a bunch of predefined default settings that suit the purpose of the lb?14:28
rm_worksbalukoff: +1, that's what I've been trying to get across -- sane defaults14:28
enikanorov_ok, let me answer these14:29
ptoohill+1 sbalukoff14:29
jorgemBTW our customers love our API in comparison to AWS (they actually state this to us)14:29
crc32enikanorov_: It would be hard to do everything in one call if we don't have a lb object to pass in to the api complete with backend nodes.14:29
enikanorov_1. neutron API is quite low-level. it's not an orchestration level14:29
sballeI agree that the Atlas API is a starting point and is the reason that we built LIbra using this API.14:29
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enikanorov_2. single call-api is not as simple as it seems14:29
jorgemhowever, it needs work to accomodate new items such as pools14:29
aburaschisballukoff: +114:29
enikanorov_we already do have single call API which is Heat14:29
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enikanorov_and it has one important feature14:30
rm_workenikanorov_: that is my question in a nutshell -- what do we delegate to Heat and what is actually done in N-LBaaS API?14:30
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enikanorov_id requires you to use it's own definition language14:30
crc32enikanorov_: Heat is a seperate product is it not? Has the desision to pass off everything involving a single call API already getting stamped "We have heat for that"?14:30
enikanorov_and the definition language is required (generally) to work with a graph of objects in a single call14:31
enikanorov_crc32: Heat is separate orchestration project14:31
iwamotoneutron should provide minimal usability without heat.14:31
rm_workSo, Heat is used to create whole LB configs as a Fire-and-forget sort of thing, and then the user goes and tweaks the LBs in the N-LBaaS API from then on?14:32
enikanorov_crc32: the reason to not having single call is technical, not only because 'Heat already has that'. but that as well14:32
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jorgemorchestrating the configuration of a lb is one thing. Orchestrating the creation/deletion of many lbs is another14:32
enikanorov_rm_work: that's one of the options14:32
sballejorgem, +114:32
rm_workjorgem: +114:32
sbalukoffRegarding orchestration, could someone clarify this for me? Shouldn't the API have all the features exposed in it that an orchestration layer would use (regardless of whether it's Heat or something else-- like something a tenant might home grow)?  In other words, there shouldn't be features that are *only* available in Heat, right?14:32
rm_workI don't think Heat is the place to orchestrate the creation of a single LB14:33
sbalukoff(That would require Heat to manipulate things that aren't in the API, right?)14:33
aveigasbalukoff: +114:33
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tvardemansbalukoff: + 114:33
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sballesbalukoff, +114:33
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tvardemanenikanorov_: I think one thing to keep in mind is we're not talking about ease of implementation for one call, we're talking about the user-experience.14:34
enikanorov_rm_work: so LBaaS API is not fo orchestraction, but for fine grained conrtol over load balancing function14:34
rm_worksbalukoff: I don't think he's saying that all of the features wouldn't be exposed, just that the "single-call" approach would be best done in Heat (define the LB in Heat's language, and have Heat do the 3-4 calls necessary for creation)14:34
jorgemsbalukoff: Correct, thus neutron lbaas API exposes everything for managing individual lbs. Heat would be used to manage lbs in concert with other items such as nova (for example autoscaling)14:34
sbalukoffrm_work: Ok, yes, I can get behind that. :)14:34
rm_workenikanorov_: yeah, but I don't think "create one full LB" falls into "orchestration"14:34
enikanorov_tvardeman: one call doesn't allow you to create rich configuration unless you introduce template language like in heat14:35
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sbalukoffrm_work: +114:35
aveigashouldn't "one call" be enough to instantiate a ddefault LB though?14:35
sballejorgem, I agree,14:35
rm_workenikanorov_: it does if you have sane defaults, aka what sbalukoff was saying earlier14:35
samuelbercovicirm_work: I think the term LB is oveloaded14:35
enikanorov_rm_work: not really14:35
crc32enikanorov_: If nuetron/lbaas is only allowing manipulation of simple primitive objects then I get the feeling our product managers are going to bring up the "Our customers want you to wrap up the api into something simular to the atlas api. I can already hear it now.14:35
enikanorov_it's not about defaults14:35
blogan_so to create a load balancer a user will instead go through Heat and not Load Balancing as  a Service? how is that not confusing to a user?14:35
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mariosrm_work: but it could do... eg you have a heat template defining your 2/3 web servers and the single load balancer for them.heat brings it all up14:35
enikanorov_it's about ability to reference different objects within the configuration14:36
sbalukoffsamuelbercovici: Yep, I think we're confusing terms again here.14:36
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enikanorov_the thing is that we don't have a single example of such APIs yet14:36
rm_workmarios: yeah, I can see what you mean there… in that case it's part of a greater whole14:36
enikanorov_none of the lbaas APIs available provides features set we desire14:36
edhallso, the API needs to both support (1) simple user interactions and (2) straightforward automation of complex operations. Those are two sometimeds conflicting goals...14:36
jorgemenikanorov_: Our current API does allow us to create a rich configuration in one call. However, you can also make several calls to accomplish the same thing.14:36
jorgemenikanorov_: That's one of the joys of an asynchronous API14:36
enikanorov_jorgem: can you give a link to API reference?14:37
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jorgemsure one sec14:37
enikanorov_and it's not about asyncness14:37
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rm_workI still believe it comes back to sane defaults, and having a high level object that can be used to define everything necessary to get the LB spun up14:37
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enikanorov_jorgem: yesh, i've seen this page14:38
enikanorov_sorry, this API doesn't fit our requirements14:38
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jorgemenikanorov_: That's for our current API. The only item is that SSL term must be made in a separate call. Other than that you can add all config in one POST call14:38
enikanorov_because it doesn't support multiple pools14:38
rm_workI mean, what "<X>aaS" product doesn't have <X> as a high level object...14:38
enikanorov_(needed for L7)14:38
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blogan_enikanorov: that can easily be accomplished with that api though14:38
jorgemenikanorov_: Right I was just stating that one call can take in a rich config, not necesarily to use this API14:38
german_and here is the libra API for another example:
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rm_workenikanorov_: I think that could be solved… it only doesn't support that because it was never a req14:38
blogan_enikanorov: i mean with modification14:39
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crc32I get the whole "provide primitives not solutions" principle but this api is already very high level and it a logical loadbalancing model has already worked well for us at rackspace.14:39
sballeenikanorov_, we can tweek the APIs to support the more advnaced features14:39
tvardemanenikanorov_: I think the point to take from that is the API request structure, not to mock the current Neutron LBaaS after this api.14:39
enikanorov_jorgem: i'm saying that will not be rich enough... i think if we are to go fo a single call - we need to support all features14:39
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enikanorov_sballe: we can. it would be Heat API14:39
jorgemenikanorov_: correct and I think this can be accomplished14:40
sballecrc32, +1 same for us. the high level API really works well14:40
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ptoohill'here, here'14:40
enikanorov_jorgem: this can be accomplished, but it's strongly an 'extra' feature14:40
crc32enikamprov_: Punting this off to heat is going to complicate something that belongs in the core api.14:40
jorgemperhaps ML discussion so we can get in our points?14:40
rm_workenikanorov_: well, i don't know if there is a specific reason to not do all of the 90% use-case features in one call, and have the rest in subsequent calls on an already "UP" loadbalancer14:40
german_I like the idea of being able to tweak14:40
enikanorov_crc32: i'm not saying 'putting this off to heat', i'm saying that in order to satisfy our requirements, we need to make the same kind of API as Heat has14:41
sbalukoffsballe, jorgem, crc32: Do your organizations use an orchestration layer? Maybe the reason for high-level API is because no such beast exists in your environments?14:41
tvardeman+1 rm_work14:41
jorgemsbalukoff: Yes we do14:41
blogan_i just dont see how passing off the creation of a load balancer to another product is not confusing to a user14:41
mariosenikanorov_: do you mean in terms of passing in the required configuration + options (ala heat templates)14:41
jorgemsbalukoff: Autoscaling is one for example14:41
rm_workone of the reasons we are getting all of the use-case statistics together I think is so we can focus on coding for the 95% not the 5%14:41
samuelbercovicito clarify, do any of the Rackspace, HP cloud, other , users use cli calls?14:41
sballeblogan_, +1 I totally agree14:42
sbalukoffjorgem: Ok, so you don't force your users to use orchestration for high-level calls, then?14:42
enikanorov_rm_work: no specific reason, other than we are focused on particular objects and fine-grained management, single call mabe added to API as an extra14:42
rm_worknot that we can't allow the 5% to do their thing, but it shouldn't be the main focus for the API as far as "ease of use"14:42
jorgemsbalukoff: We do not14:42
enikanorov_marios: yes, it must be a template.14:42
sbalukoffGot it.14:42
samuelbercoviciDo he Rackspace, HP cloud, other , users use cli calls?14:42
rm_worksamuelbercovici: Rackspace has a CLB CLI14:42
sbalukoffAgain, many ways to skin the cat, I guess.14:42
crc32sbalukoff: Not traditionally. An orchastration layer was added later on for customers that wanted auto scalling built in. But know one uses the orchistration api. The control panel uses it (Since they are UI developers) but I'm not aware of any actual end users using the API.14:42
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jorgemsbalukoff: Another example of orcestration is when tenants are marked as delinquent and we need to remove their instances across all products.14:43
mariosenikanorov_: to be clear, the 'single call api' - is this 'in addition to' or 'instead of' the current API?14:43
samuelbercovicirm_work: but is it wildly used?14:43
enikanorov_marios: an addition, only14:43
mariosenikanorov_: ack, tx14:43
sballesamuelbercovici, we have a cli for Libra14:43
rm_worksamuelbercovici: 90%+ of our LBs are created through webGUI I think :/14:43
enikanorov_marios: that comes from cli requirement and that follows neutron ideology14:43
crc32marios: Yes but a single call api would need to beable to support a complex loadbalancer object that contains a list of backend nodes.14:44
enikanorov_rm_work: if it's web gui - than user experience goes from gui, not lbaas API14:44
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samuelbercovicirm_work: in this case, what would it matter if there was a single page to configure LBaaS driving multiple LBaaS calls?14:44
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german_samuelbercovici we have cli calls and some users have orchestration with ansible, chef, etc.14:44
rm_workenikanorov_: yeah, i'm thinking maybe it's not worth arguing this, and we're just going to end up making a GUI layer anyway14:44
crc32marios: So it seem odd to have 2 loadbalancer objects. One simple for the primitive operatiopns and one for a complete loadbalancer.14:44
blogan_rm_work: horizon already does this methinks14:44
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rm_workah, yes, horizon14:45
enikanorov_rm_work: yes. anyway those who pass jsons, make it from scripts, not manually14:45
german_crc32 +114:45
jorgemrm_work: Correct but we do have the power API users as well14:45
samuelbercovicigerman_: cli that has many many parameters and can encompass multiple lines is ususaly an issue with human users14:45
marioscrc32: i imagined (and i *think* this is what enikanorov_ is suggesting) that the single call API would be kind of a wrapper around the individual API calls (hence the 'orchestration' bit)14:45
rm_workjorgem: yeah, but the power API users could probably handle a "no single-call creation" system14:45
samuelbercovicithis is why I am asking whether users are using the cli in your environments14:45
sballesamuelbercovici, that why we need good defaults14:45
enikanorov_marios: not really...14:45
marioscrc32: so you'd still have the same lb object. just the creation is different?14:45
rm_workor would like it just as much, since they're the 5% i was talking about14:45
german_yesm we also have horizon we just offer everyhting14:45
mariosenikanorov_: ah, ok...14:45
sbalukoffUltimately, a GUI is going to be using API on its back-end. :/14:45
enikanorov_marios: it can't be a wrapper, i'd say14:45
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rm_worksamuelbercovici: I think that was a very good question14:46
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blogan_enikanorov: another problem with having all these separate calls is the more you add, the longer it takes to actually spin up a load balancer, granted right now its negligible but in the future it may not be the case14:46
crc32marios: Meaning another api that makes lower level apis? Or are we talking about a core api that has the notion of a complex loadbalancer object so that it can be constructed in one call.14:46
jorgemrm_work: Why are we stuck on "one single call"? The point is that lbs get configured. One call is nice to pass in all config but that does not preclude from having the option to use several calls. This is what we currently do.14:46
rm_worksamuelbercovici: and now I am rethinking whether I honestly care what the API looks like or not, since 90% of my users won't ever see it, and the ones that do ARE the power users so I shouldn't be worried about them getting confused <_<14:46
marioscrc32: well the latter i think14:46
marioscrc32: but i am new here :) so ...14:47
enikanorov_blogan_: just to clarify, i'm not against 'single call' API, but i'm agains making it a primary one14:47
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german_rm_work, it;s the same for us14:47
sbalukoffjorgem: +114:47
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samuelbercoviciblogan: a way to configure a large object tree, would be to "batch" multiple calls together and then execute whne done14:47
rm_workjorgem: i don't think I am anymore <_<14:47
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blogan_you mean the api batches them together?14:48
samuelbercovicithis leaves the notion of multiple short api calls but allows to populate an object graph before actually amking a call14:48
jorgemCorrect, I vote for having one call with the option to also use several calls. If you prefer one over the other then that's your choice.14:48
german_I would assume the orchestration layer does14:48
crc32enikanorov_: So I ask would this be in the same api (Single call api) or are you advocating an external api (Single call api) that makes multiple primitive lower api calls(The core). I'd like to see a single API that is compatible with both philosophies.14:48
enikanorov_jorgem: one one call vs several calls: i think we also need to have consistent api. if we allow to update particular object, we need to allow to create it, e.g. have full set of particular calls14:48
jorgemIt really shouldn't be hard to implement unless I am missing something14:48
jorgemenikanorov_: I agree. sub resources in a RESTful API are nice14:49
enikanorov_crc32: i'm not against adding single call to lbaas API as an extra14:49
samuelbercoviciblogan_: I will send some examples on ML14:49
enikanorov_crc32: Heat has it's drawbacks14:49
mariosenikanorov_: do we have any concrete suggestions on how the 'keep existing API and add the single-call LB create' looks like? or is this first time we are discussing?14:49
blogan_samuelbercovici: ok thanks14:49
enikanorov_crc32: but the thing is that single-call API would not be a simple json call14:49
german_yeah, we need to keep it possible so users can use other orchestration software14:49
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enikanorov_crc32: it will require template language14:49
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sbalukoffmarios: For Juno, I'd argue for scrapping the existing API (or versioning it) and going with something entirely new that doesn't assume "pool" is the root object. :)14:50
enikanorov_marios: the suggestion is to think of how to provide a graph of object in a configuration, that's the technical matter of the question14:50
crc32enikanorov_: Can we add the ability for a single api to make multiple primitive calls as well as one single complex call. Thats what we are striving for four our end api users here at rackspace.14:50
german_enikanorov_, as long as we only create one lb I am not sure we need some template language14:50
tvardemansbalukoff: +114:50
enikanorov_german_: that's not about 1 lb14:51
crc32enikanorov_: I mean add it as a requirement that the api should support both.14:51
enikanorov_german_: 1 lb may have several vips and several pools. thea are cross-referenced in configuration14:51
samuelbercovicican we do the following: 1. I will define two use cases a simple web based and c omplext multi poools, l7 use case. We can then discuss how those could look from an API perspective using 1. call per item 2. sincale call 3. "batch" call14:51
sbalukoffThis implies a different work-flow for using advanced features, and I'm OK with this. :)14:51
enikanorov_german_: that's what template language is for14:51
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jorgemPossible action item for new API proposols???14:51
enikanorov_samuelbercovici: good suggestion14:51
sballesamuelbercovici, +114:52
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enikanorov_in fact we've already done that in recen obj model discussion :)14:52
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retr0hsamuelbercovici: +14:52
aburaschiIt sounds that every single call should consider sane defaults as a basis, right?14:52
mariossamuelbercovici: jorgem: +1 i think we need to have specific 'thing' to discuss/approve/shoot down.14:52
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enikanorov_aburaschi: what do you mean?14:52
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sbalukoffenikanorov_: In a round-about way, yes. I don't think we've actually discussed what the web GUI would look like.14:52
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enikanorov_web gui is out of scope, definitely14:53
sballemarios, +114:53
blogan_enikanorov: how are decisions made? is it all by core reviewers? is it majority rules? committers only?14:53
sbalukoffOh! Sorry, I misunderstood what samuelbercovici suggested.14:53
enikanorov_blogan_: that's a hard question...14:53
crc32oh wow. Are heat templates yaml files or is it an actual language with a grammer and such forth.14:54
samuelbercovicion web UI, can we have a google doc in which each web ui implementation will put a few screen captures of their Web?14:54
aburaschienikanorov_: I'm thinking that one way or another, batch or multiple calls will make good use of defaults that consider a complete up lb.14:54
enikanorov_crc32: it is. we need particular feature from that language14:54
marioscrc32: i've only ever seen yaml templates. but there is definitely a grammar that is parsed by the heat engine14:55
enikanorov_aburaschi: still not sure i get your question14:55
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samuelbercovicieven if web UI are out of scope, they may represent how users visualize the configuration14:55
marioscrc32: until recently this was all CloudFormation compatible (aws). the HOT spec is new
crc32enikanorov_: Which is it YAML or an actual language. Unless I'm mistaken I'm not sure how we can realisitcly right a wrapper api in YAML.14:56
samuelbercoviciand could be used as another sanity check for the api as obviously the web use consumes the api14:56
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sbalukoffsamuelbercovici: That's a good point. I'm glad I misunderstood your suggestion above, in retrospect. :D14:56
crc32thats right up their with writing a DSL in XML and yes we've had the torture of doing that. :(14:57
enikanorov_crc32: the feature we need - naming/referencing the objects within provided json. basically that creates such json a separate language for which we will need to create a parser14:57
marioscrc32: yaml files, where individual tags within have specific meaning/action14:57
enikanorov_crc32: not a very big deal, but a thing to consider14:57
marioscrc32: (fyi example templates that tripleo uses @
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jorgemenikanorov_: Before meeting ends do we have proper action items lined out?14:58
aburaschienikanorov_: just thinking that old simple calls should include the defaults that can create a full up lb from an orchestration point of view. maybe this is trivial... never mind :)14:58
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samuelbercoviciso: 1. I will send a google doc with 2 use cases and we can see how each approach works for them 2. on the same document, we can place a few screen captures web UIs14:58
enikanorov_jorgem: i'll send them after the meeting shortly14:58
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jorgemenikanorov_: thanks14:59
enikanorov_samuelbercovici: may be i'd separate web ui discussion...14:59
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tvardeman+1 enikanorov_14:59
samuelbercovicienikanorov_: ok. will do14:59
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rm_workyeah that is a weird case, because it is related, but really "not our problem" right now14:59
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jorgemrm_work: GUI creators will be big API users though15:00
enikanorov_ok, thanks everyone for joining, lets wrap up and continue in ML15:00
sbalukoffThey will.15:00
aburaschithank you15:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:00
openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr  3 15:00:17 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:00
sbalukoffThanks, y'all!15:00
openstackMinutes (text):
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mariosthanks o/15:00
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jd__#startmeeting ceilometer15:00
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openstackMeeting started Thu Apr  3 15:00:40 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jd__. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer'15:00
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jd__hey hey15:01
admin0hey jd__15:01
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jd__#topic Release status15:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Release status (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:01
jd__rc1 is out \o/15:01
nealphthat's fantastic!15:02
ildikov_\o/ :)15:02
jd__doesn't look like we need a rc2 AFAIK15:02
jd__eglynn is going to talk about known issues to release note15:02
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admin0can you guys also debate about a new publisher .. graphite ?15:02
ildikov_jd__: what about the translation issue around all projects?15:02
eglynn... /me was just think we should collect known gotchas for the release notes15:02
admin0that i submitted the blueprint to15:02
jd__ildikov_: dunnow15:03
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eglynnat least two potential issues I can think of ...15:03
jd__admin0: not now, but yes15:03
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eglynn1. the "implicit" requirement for happybase version not specified in the offical requirements15:03
ildikov_jd__: as I saw it was targeted to RC2 in several projects, but if we do not have any other reason for RC2, then I just asked :)15:03
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eglynnnprivalova: ^^^ does that make sense?15:04
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nprivalovaeglynn: AFAIK correct requirements were merged15:04
nprivalovaeglynn: let me check15:05
eglynnnprivalova: merged to master, but not milestone-proposed?15:05
nprivalovaeglynn: yep15:05
eglynnnprivalova: so not in RC1 in that case15:06
nprivalovaeglynn: right15:06
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ildikov_nprivalova: is it enough in the requirements that !=0.7?15:06
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nprivalovaildikov_: we support >0.4 and !=0.715:07
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nprivalovaI think we may add it to release note15:07
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jd__anything else?15:08
ildikov_nprivalova: I just remembered that there was something about 0.6 also as it is buggy like 0.7, but maybe it's not my day as for questions :)15:08
eglynnnprivalova: is still happybase>=0.4,<=0.615:08
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eglynnnprivalova: ^^^ isn't that problematic? (the =0.6 case)15:08
nprivalovaeglynn: it should be synced with global15:09
nprivalovaeglynn: ==0.6 is ok15:09
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nprivalovaildikov_: it was just mistake in message :) 0.6 is ok15:09
nprivalovabesides, I'd like discuss . We add it to known issues?15:09
eglynnnprivalova: a-ha, ok ... I thought we couldn't sync it up on Friday due to the dependency freeze (as you discussed with ttx)15:09
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1288284 in ceilometer "[Hbase]Resource with multiple meters is not handled correctly" [High,In progress]15:09
ildikov_nprivalova: yep, it's on review now, I mean the sync15:10
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ildikov_nprivalova: a-ha, ok, cool :)15:10
eglynnnprivalova: yep, sounds reasonable to note 128828415:10
nprivalovaeglynn: ok15:10
eglynnok the other one I had in mind was the issue with multi-process/multi-worker collector running against postgres15:10
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eglynn(as discussed last week with gordc)15:11
nprivalovayep, and DBDeadlock issue15:11
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eglynnseems we should include a caveat not to scale out the collector if running against postgres15:11
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ildikov_eglynn: is only postgres affected i nthis whole DB issue finally?15:11
eglynnildikov_: TBH I'm not 100% sure about that15:12
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eglynnildikov_: discussed briefly with gordc yesterday
ildikov_eglynn: ok, I will try to check after meeting in the logs and mails15:13
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eglynn#action eglynn wrangle release notes "known issues" entries from SMEs15:14
nprivalovawe will test performance soon and will check it anyway15:14
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eglynnk, we can prolly move on if no-one else has other release-notable items in mind15:14
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* admin0 waits :) 15:15
jd__#topic Tempest integration15:15
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nprivalovaunfortunately no updates. We still have one collector (as it done by default) and tests fail15:16
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jd__#topic Release python-ceilometerclient?15:16
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jd__I think we should do that now15:17
eglynnalready done a couple days ago :)15:17
ildikov_it's released \o/15:17
jd__oh great, I was just checking and still saw a few patches15:17
jd__thanks eglynn15:17
jd__#topic Open discussion15:17
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: ceilometer)"15:17
eglynn... /me just realized he released 1.0.10 on April Fool's Day ;)15:18
ildikov_eglynn: LOL :)15:18
admin0graphite publisher :) .. so that people do not have to install the full ceilometer components, but just get the graphs directly to graphite15:19
ildikov_eglynn: it was a bit unbelievable that it finally got released ;)15:19
eglynnildikov_: ... it was a long time coming all right! :)15:19
eglynnadmin0: so do you want feedback on the idea or the code?15:19
eglynnadmin0: is it out for (WIP) review on gerrit?15:20
admin0i have not uploaded the code yet .. i was waiting for your views on it before i upload the code15:20
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admin0someone said i should check before wrting a lot of codes15:20
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nprivalovait was me :)15:20
eglynnadmin0: but you don have some basic working code already, right?15:20
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admin0i do have a basic working code ready that is already working15:21
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eglynnadmin0: (... maybe no tests, docco yet, but that's fine for WIP)15:21
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nprivalovathe question from me was: why we need separate publisher for graphite? why UDP is not enough?15:21
ildikov_BTW, do we want to have specialized publishers?15:21
dhellmanndoes graphite want a special format for its packets?15:22
admin0nprivalova:  with udp, i  was just getting the metrics, and i need a separate daemon running to convert the codes to the graphite format15:22
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eglynnadmin0: ... my recommendation would be throw it up on gerrit so as to get early eyes on it, which would help to answer nprivalova's question in a more concrete way15:22
nprivalovaaha, so we may need some converter? not publisher actually?15:22
ildikov_I think it is too specific to be placed inside Ceilometer15:23
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eglynnnprivalova: publisher is currently end of the sink chain, but I wonder could this conversion be done in a transformer?15:23
admin0if ceilometer can send to a tcp port in the format say:    ceilometer.tenant(name/id).vm(name/id).disk.write.bytes 10  timestamp .. .. that would do15:24
nprivalovaeglynn: I'm thinking about transformer too...15:24
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nprivalovaso I think that if code is ready admin0 may publish it and we will think about moving conversion to transformer or smth else15:25
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ildikov_eglynn: do we want to have client specific transformers in Ceilometer? maybe I'm on the wrong track with this question, but it seems a bit out of scope for me15:26
eglynnnprivalova: though the publisher still needs the transformed data in sample-like form
eglynnildikov_: well I suppose it doesn't necessarily need to live in the ceilometer tree15:26
ildikov_eglynn: a-ha, ok, fair enough15:27
dhellmannildikov_: I don't see a problem with adding this. It's a very commonly used tool, and IIRC we talked about adding this eventually when we first made publishers pluggable.15:27
eglynnildikov_: ... but our pipeline should probably be flexible enough to accomodate an externally provided plugin15:27
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nprivalovabut we may provide a mechanism to add such converters15:27
admin0if using pipeline it can have tcp function and able to format (string ) the output, it should work15:27
eglynnso I think first step is to look at admin0's code and if the coversions can be performed in a transformer15:28
nprivalovaeglynn: agreed15:28
eglynn(while re-using the existing UDP publisher as nprivalova suggests)15:28
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eglynnadmin0: can you propose a patch on gerrit with your code?15:28
admin0i will start on it right now15:29
ildikov_dhellmann: I see your point, but I'm also sure that there are several commonly used tools on the market, so I just wanted highlight this question earlier, than later to discuss the options15:29
eglynnadmin0: ty!15:29
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dhellmannildikov_: I'd like to think we would take a big-tent approach for publishers, like we do with storage drivers15:29
admin0i will beautify my codes, put comments on why i am doing something .. and then submit a review15:30
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* isviridov thinks if it is time for MagnetoDB blueprints?15:30
eglynndhellmann: ... which is a nice segueway into isviridov's topic15:30
ildikov_dhellmann: we have some issues now we the supported DB drivers, it needs more than less refactor/redesign now, I just would like to avoid similar issues with publishers15:31
nprivalovaisviridov: please move on :)15:31
isviridovSo, I would suggest support of our MagnetoDB in Celiometer15:32
dhellmannildikov_: yes, true. we should add the tests if possible, rather than refusing new plugins15:32
eglynnisviridov: key questions in my mind ...15:33
isviridovIt is key-value and perfect for timeseries data15:33
isviridoveglynn: pelase15:33
eglynnisviridov: ... 1. would be providing full or partial feature parity with mongo/sqla drivers?15:33
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eglynnisviridov: ... 2. would you be sticking around as driver maintainer for at least the medium-term15:34
ildikov_dhellmann: yes, I agree in this point, we should surely focus more on proper tests this time15:34
eglynnisviridov: ... (we need to avoid "code drops" lacking active maintainership IMO)15:34
dhellmanneglynn: +115:34
ildikov_eglynn: +115:35
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isviridoveglynn: 1: it has http interface and actually covers  database behind.15:35
eglynnisviridov: I'm thinking more of the "glue code" that lies between the ceilometer API and the native DB API15:36
isviridoveglynn: 2. Yes. We have a plans also for future integration with Celiometer in metrics writing and collecting15:36
eglynnisviridov: for each storage driver we have logic that maps between a high-level primitive like get_resources and the corresponding DB-specific queries15:37
eglynnisviridov: in some case the semantics of these primitives are incomplete in some subset of the drivers15:38
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eglynnisviridov: so the question is not whether magnetoDB can do everything database-y15:39
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isviridoveglynn: yeap, it is clear.  We will drive inplementation of that part to make MagnetoDB + Celiometer better15:39
ildikov_isviridov: did I see right that you plan to use Cassandra behind it?15:39
nprivalovaSo Magneto looks like an additional layer between API and DBs... In future we may remove add DB-code from Ceilometer and use only Magneto API :)?15:40
isviridovildikov_: Cassandra is our primarry storage, the best tested and with best performance.15:40
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isviridovildikov_: but we are planning support of HBase as one of next and started devstack integration for that.15:41
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eglynnjd__: you've already got a partially implemented "direct" cassandra driver for ceilo, or?15:42
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jd__eglynn: only write is supported15:42
ildikov_isviridov: ok, I just asked because of future testing issues mainly15:42
eglynnjd__: a-ha, k15:42
isviridovnprivalova: exactly15:42
eglynn(just wondering if the same cassandra benefits, i.e. TSD goodness etc., could be got via magnetoDB)15:43
isviridovildikov_: we have done with devstack integration and have tempest running on gates.15:43
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ildikov_eglynn: good point, I was thinking about the same15:43
eglynnisviridov: so this TSD goodness in magnetoDB you speak of, is that mostly derived from the Cassandra underpinnings?15:44
nprivalovaI have two more questions. 1. What about sql and 2. Complex queries15:44
isviridoveglynn: actually we are trying to go very close to cassandra in functionality, to keep its performance15:44
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eglynnisviridov: and if I deployed magnetoDB backed by say hbase, maybe I wouldn't see the same benefits when manipulating TSD?15:45
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isviridoveglynn: Implement it on top  of C* is the  cheapest way and C* is very easy in administration (geterogenous cluster). But with HBase we have key-value storage as well. And I beilive it is the main reason for performance.15:46
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isviridoveglynn: but yes, you are right. It will be somehow another15:47
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eglynnisviridov: cool, I was just wondering if the suitablity for storing TSD in magnetoDB is more an attribute of the chosen backing store than of magnetDB *itself*15:48
eglynnisviridov: ... and sounds like the answer is "yes"15:48
isviridoveglynn: awesome!15:48
nprivalovait very 'openstack'ish' way... one service use another service. When all backends implementations in Ceilometer we may control performance (theoretically). Now isviridov suggests a service that (theoretically) will provide best performance for all backends in a year (2,3...)15:49
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nprivalovait theory sounds great :) but what is the status of Magneto? Tests, integration testing and so on15:50
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eglynnisviridov: is magnetoDB officially incubating?15:50
isviridovnprivalova: The main benefit as for me is in maintenence of one storage and yes, MagnetoDB is scalable horisontally, so performace is close to C*15:50
eglynnisviridov: (... as an openstack project)15:50
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ildikov_isviridov: what about nprivalova's two questions?15:51
nprivalovaeglynn: do you agree that our own implementations and Magneto usage should live together for a long time?15:51
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nprivalovaeglynn: I'm not against this actually, just asking15:52
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isviridoveglynn: it is openstack project and (i hope) will be incubated soon. Now it has unit testing coverage about 60-80%. It has very good tempest coverage and devstack gate15:52
isviridovildikov_: missed15:53
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nprivalovaisviridov: 1. SQL 2. Complex queries15:53
eglynnnprivalova: ... well magnetoDB sounds like an interesting way to allow Ceilometer leverage Cassandra's suitability for TSD15:53
eglynnnprivalova: ... but I'm not sure that it will displace the "direct" storage drivers15:53
ildikov_nprivalova: thanks :)15:53
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isviridovnprivalova:  No sql, but JSON defined queries15:53
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isviridovnprivalova: about complex queries: there are several primitives which can be used to achive requied complexity.15:54
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isviridovnprivalova: in generall approach is to store different projections of the same data15:55
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isviridovnprivalova: for more analitics Hadoop can be used15:55
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nprivalovaeglynn: ah, you see Cassandra usage primarily15:56
ildikov_eglynn: I think the direct drivers will be needed, in case of SQL backends for sure and if we keep Mongo than for that also15:56
eglynnildikov_: agree15:56
isviridoveglynn: not displace, but for cloud maintener, I believe it is better to work with one cluster of C*, HBase whatever15:57
eglynnone other potential issue ...15:57
eglynn... assuming magnetoDB becomes an incubated openstack project as per isviridov's wishes15:57
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eglynn... is it kosher for a graduated project like ceilometer to take a dependency on an incubated project?15:57
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eglynn... i.e. is incubatedness somehow viral?15:57
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eglynndhellmann: ^^^ you may know the answer to that15:58
dhellmanneglynn: we couldn't depend on it as the only implementation, but we could provide a driver to use it15:58
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eglynndhellmann: a-ha, k, thanks!15:58
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dhellmannand it probably shouldn't be the default until it is integrated15:58
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eglynnisviridov: so if I'm reading the temperature of the discussion correctly ...15:59
eglynnisviridov: ... I'd say you should go ahead and start implementing such a driver :)16:00
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ildikov_eglynn: as a driver, it can be used I think and if nprivalova's guess comes true in a year (2, 3...) it can be considered again as default supported driver or something like16:00
isviridoveglynn: thanks for your blessing16:00
eglynnisviridov: ... with the privisos that (a) you commit to near-parity feature-wise and (b) you intend to stick around as driver maintainer16:00
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isviridoveglynn: agree16:01
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eglynnildikov_: yep, possibly a longer-term possibility for the "one driver to rule them all"16:01
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eglynn... we're running up against the shot-clock here folks16:02
ildikov_eglynn: hmm, we will see, the game is just about to start :)16:02
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nprivalovathanks for discussions!16:03
eglynnjd__: if there's nothing else on the agenda you could pull the trigger on the #endmeeting16:03
eglynnthanks all!16:04
isviridovthank you for your thoughts!16:04
jd__ack :)16:04
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openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr  3 16:04:08 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)16:04
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hyakuheiRight, so providing I've not screwed up my timezones again, lets start :)17:02
hyakuhei#startmeeting OpenStack Security Group17:02
openstackMeeting started Thu Apr  3 17:02:45 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hyakuhei. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"17:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group'17:02
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hyakuhei#topic Role call17:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Role call (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"17:03
hyakuheiSpeak up people :D17:03
chair6< jamie from HP17:03
* hyakuhei here, in seattle this week17:03
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hyakuheiLets give people a minute or two to roll in.17:03
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hyakuheiI guess that'll do, looks like we have most people here. I've got Doug from HP here with me also17:04
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hyakuheiRight, whats the agenda for today?17:05
hyakuheiOSSN updates would be a good start I suppose - nkinder ?17:05
hyakuhei#topic OSSN updates17:05
*** openstack changes topic to "OSSN updates (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"17:05
hyakuheinkinder: are you around to give us an updatE?17:06
nkinderhyakuhei: yep, sorry (got pulled aside)17:06
hyakuheiI see that we now have stuff working in the gerrit review system, I think it's already showing some value :)17:06
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nkinderSo, gerrit is working now, and we've run the first OSSN through it!17:07
hyakuheiHow's your OSSN coming chair6 ?17:07
nkinderThe review guidelines Bryan and I discussed match the normal process.  We want two +2's, then a core member can approve the push.17:07
chair6draft in progress, eta for review later today17:07
nkinderchair6: which OSSN are you working on?17:07
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1287219 in keystone "scope of domain admin too broad in v3 policy sample" [Medium,Fix released]17:08
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nkinderchair6: ah, ok.  When you submit the review, add me as a reviewer please.17:08
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chair6will do17:08
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hyakuheiSo I'd like to thank nkinder for his hard work17:08
hyakuheiand I will - thanks ;)17:08
nkinderI started looking into adding a simple job to check for trailing whitespace.  We can then expand on it if we have other formatting checks.17:09
Dg_Hi, I'm Doug from HP17:09
nkinderHi Doug17:09
hyakuheiThanks cool nkinder I'd like to look at adding more jobs in, basic stuff like spell checking (though that's not easy with technical stuff) format checking etc17:09
nkinderhyakuhei: we can certainly have a non-voting job for things like spell check17:10
nkinderhyakuhei: the nice thing will be that one can run the jobs using tox before submitting the review17:10
hyakuheiMaybe when you've gone through how to do the basic one we can chat about writing more?17:10
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nkinderIt's also on my list to sync up with the docs team to add a publishing job for an appendix in the Security Guide.17:11
nkinderhyakuhei: definitely.17:11
hyakuheiYeah so that's useful for sure, though manual intervention tasks (find a place to insert a link to the appendix) will need to be spawned or taken into account too17:11
nkinderhyakuhei: I'll work with docs to see how to best handle that17:12
hyakuheiIn fact, we probably need an action to review the current OSSNs and work out where to insert them into the guide17:12
nkinderhyakuhei: I can handle that17:12
hyakuhei#topic security guidelines17:13
*** openstack changes topic to "security guidelines (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"17:13
hyakuheinkinder: thanks, make sure you don't overload yourself though!17:13
Dg_hyakuhei and chair6 - sprint on the security guidelines this week?17:13
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hyakuheiI think that would work, a lot of the HP folk are together in the same place over the next few days, so if people here are happy I think we can get together and get lots of content down17:14
hyakuheiand then non-HP people can review :)17:14
chair6sounds good, this week or next week..17:14
hyakuheiOk cool, so lets take an action to do it before the next OSSG meeting17:15
nkinderhyakuhei: is the focus on operator or developer guidelines?17:15
nkinderhyakuhei: ok17:15
nkinderhyakuhei: so filling out the previous items that were defined (and adding to them)?17:15
hyakuheiTo my mind, its a set of 'rules' that we can get PTLs to agree to, that should then help bring up the quality of security code in OpenStack17:15
hyakuheiin the longterm I can see some being codified into jenkins jobs, tempest checks etc17:15
nkinderhyakuhei: makes sense17:16
chair6perhaps 'secure design/development guidelines' is a better label17:16
nkinderchair6: +117:16
hyakuheiI've got no objection to that.17:16
hyakuheiOr "+1" in Openstack parlance17:16
hyakuhei#topic AOB17:17
*** openstack changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"17:17
chair6that was, for the record17:17
hyakuheiSo I sent around a newsletter-ish email a few days back, elaborating on the things that were discussed in the previous OSSG meeting and some of my thoughts about the future.17:18
hyakuheiDid anyone see it / find any value?17:18
hyakuheigo team!17:18
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hyakuheiSo, I'm wondering if it's worth doing these now and again, to keep people up to date because reading IRC logs is not very fun.17:19
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Dg_hyakuhei +117:19
hyakuheiany other business?17:19
nkinderI'm planning on setting up a mid-cycle security related hackfest17:20
nkinderThis is more for developers really.  I'd like to get some cross-project interest and movement towards some security related goals17:20
nkinderTopics on my mind are making SSL deployments easier and secure messaging17:21
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hyakuheinkinder: yeah17:21
nkinderThere are efforts going on in these areas, but not a lot of cross-project buy in17:21
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hyakuheiSo that's a good point.17:21
hyakuhei#topic SSL17:21
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hyakuheiThe guidance on SSL isn't overly good at the moment17:21
nkinderI have a long SSL blog post I'm just about finished with17:21
hyakuheiLots of people are doing this in different ways17:22
hyakuheiOh cool17:22
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nkinder...which covers exactly that17:22
hyakuheiOk,  so lets wait for that and use it to start a discussion?17:22
nkinderSo the docs can definitely be improved, and I've done a lot of research that can feed into that.17:22
nkinderhyakuhei: yes, a next week topic I suppose17:22
hyakuheiYeah, everyone does it differently, I personally lean towards pre-service termination (on the same physical host) but it's really context dependant.17:23
nkinderOn the SSL topic, I also have a colleague who is working on SSL enabling devstack17:23
hyakuheiGreat, I should talk to you guys about a CA piece I've been working on.17:23
nkinderIf we can make it easy to set up SSL automatically with devstack, we can start having tests actually run regularly with SSL17:23
Dg_nkinder: it'd be good to take a look at that blogpost, I have an internal doucment we can share if you want - giving our requirements and justification for them17:24
nkinderDg_: that would be great17:24
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nkinderDg_: I hope to have my writeup out in the next day or so17:24
nkinderI'll send it to the list17:24
hyakuheiok cool - so, any other business I guess?17:25
Dg_nkinder: let me know you email and I'll forward it over17:25
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nkinderDg_: nkinder at redhat dot com17:25
hyakuhei#topic AOB-again17:26
*** openstack changes topic to "AOB-again (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"17:26
hyakuheiAnything else before we close up?17:26
hyakuheiok great, thank you everyone!17:27
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:27
openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr  3 17:27:43 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:27
openstackMinutes (text):
nkinderThanks all!17:27
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bdpaynehyakuhei did you change the meeting time?17:49
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hyakuheibdpayne: No, Feel free to hold a second meeting because I'm an idiot, I thought it was quiet but people where there. I've been in three timezones in the last four days - I don't think Outlook can keep up!17:50
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bdpayneha, ok17:51
bdpayneI'll see who's around at 180017:52
hyakuheiThanks, sorry about that. I've updated the wiki with the meeting log etc17:52
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hyakuheibdpayne: as you're around. What did you think of the email I sent a few days ago, discussing the various bits of OSSG work that are ongoing?17:54
bdpaynegenerally ok, I have some thoughts that I wanted to discuss when we meet17:54
bdpaynewhenever that will be17:54
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bdpayne#startmeeting OpenStack Security Group18:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Apr  3 18:00:36 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is bdpayne. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group'18:00
bdpaynefor those that have been hanging out, you may have noticed that hyakuhei held and OSSG meeting here an hour ago18:01
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shohel02ahaa !18:01
bdpayneHe is time zone impaired ;-)18:01
bdpayneBut, this is the normal meeting time18:01
bdpayneSo I wanted to touch base and make sure that we covered everything that people would like to discuss18:01
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bdpayneWith that said...18:01
bdpayne#topic Roll Call18:02
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bdpayneWho is here?18:02
CristianFHi, Cristian here18:02
bknudsonBrant - IBM18:03
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bdpayneok... so I was just reading through the previous meeting's minutes18:03
bdpayne#topic Agenda18:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:03
bdpayneLooks like they discussed OSSNs and a few other smaller topics18:04
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bdpayneIs everyone aware of the new OSSN process?18:04
bdpaynewe are now setup to review OSSNs in gerrit18:05
bdpayneand they are all stored in git18:05
bdpaynea much nicer setup18:05
bdpaynewe already ran on through the system this week18:05
bdpayneand it's working nicely18:05
bknudsonwhat's the gerrit project?18:05
bdpayneone sec, I'll find it18:05
bknudsonfound it18:06
bdpayneah yeah18:06
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bdpayneyou're faster than I18:06
bdpaynesee also
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bknudsonI'll add it to the watch list.18:06
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shohel02+1, i will too18:07
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bdpayneanything else in particular that people would like to discuss today?18:07
bknudsonwhat's the format? plain text?18:07
bdpaynethere's a template18:08
bdpaynebut yes, structured text18:08
bdpaynewell, lightly structured ;-)18:09
bknudsonjust wondering if it's rst or the doc xml18:09
bknudsondocbook xml18:09
bdpayneoh, nothing like that18:09
bdpaynebasically plaint text18:09
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bknudsonok, I don't have an argument for docbook or rst.18:10
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bdpayneso I don't have a specific agenda for today, and it appears that much of the discussion happened in the meeting an hour ago18:11
bdpayneare there other topics you guys want to discuss here?18:11
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CristianFreferring to Security Guidelines, I went ahead and added a new guideline I found was missing (about input validation); just wanted to know if there is any process for reviewing info in this wiki?18:11
bdpayneoh thanks18:11
bdpayneso there's nothing formal for reviewing that yet18:12
bdpayneas you make changes, it could be nice to just mention it on the ML18:12
bdpaynethat way people can discuss / track18:12
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bdpaynein time, we may want to move stuff like this into git18:12
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bdpaynebut right now it's an early stage WIP18:12
bdpayneso the wiki feels right18:12
CristianFok, fine. Thanks.18:12
bdpaynehaving said all of that18:12
bdpayneinput validation is a very good one to have18:13
bdpayneon a related note18:13
bknudsonadding input validation is a great addition...18:13
bdpayneNova is putting together a formal BP template18:13
bknudsonnow we just have to do it in keystone18:13
bdpayneAnd I added a section to their template to discuss security impact18:13
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bdpayneIn that section, I reference this wiki page18:13
bdpayneI think it would be great if all of the projects did something similar18:13
bknudsonare they expecting OSSG to verify the bps?18:14
bdpaynebknudson Does keystone have a formal BP template?18:14
bknudsonbdpayne: keystone uses launchpad for blueprints still18:14
shohel02For keystone Input validation would be good addition bknudson18:14
bdpaynewe aren't quite there yet (OSSG verification of BPs)18:14
bdpaynebut I'd like for it to start moving that way18:14
bdpayneat least getting people thinking about security at the design stage is important18:14
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bdpayneand can help direct OSSG efforts18:15
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shohel02yes, i have one question, do we have any session in the Atlanta summit to discuss about ongoing security works/future works18:16
shohel02mainly discussion session18:16
bdpaynenormally I setup an OSSG lunch18:16
bdpayneand I will be doing that again this time18:17
bdpaynebut we don't have a specific session devoted to that18:17
bdpayneI'm happy to setup a more formal OSSG meeting though18:17
bdpaynecould be useful18:17
shohel02yes definately18:17
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shohel02now that we have many security works ongoing18:17
bdpayneso the security track at the summit is basically Monday18:17
bknudsonfor the developer conference?18:17
bdpayneI'm not sure where this would fit in the dev summit, unfortunately18:18
bdpaynewe might just do it informally, or setup a session at the unconference18:18
bdpayneunless... is there a good slot for something like this at the dev summit?18:18
bdpaynewe aren't really a project, unfortunately18:18
bdpayneanyway, I'll take this as an action item to figure out18:19
shohel02that would be great18:19
bdpayne#action bdpayne to Plan a formal OSSG meeting at the summit, in addition to the lunch18:19
bknudsonhere's the topics
bdpayneahh, they do have a cross project workshop topic18:20
bdpaynecool, I may be able to make that work18:20
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bdpayneanything else to discuss?18:22
CristianFshohel: is there threat model meeting tomorrow?18:22
shohel02yes, we have short one tomorrow18:22
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CristianFI have started with an analysis for Nova, I would like to know then how to add draft for that18:23
CristianFwe can discuss then tomorrow then18:23
shohel02also now possible18:23
shohel02or tomorrow18:23
CristianFas you prefer18:23
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shohel02There is a draft currently in the Git repo18:23
shohel02a template kind of thing18:24
CristianFyes, I have been working on this template for Nova18:25
bknudsonthe OSSAs in nova seem to be related a lot to image management18:25
bdpayneat least the recent ones18:26
bdpayneI suspect some people have been looking in that area more18:26
shohel02yes, i think Nova has  good amount code base and it would be tough call18:26
bdpayneNova is probably also one of the more mature projects18:27
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bknudsonthe images themselves could be the source of the attack18:28
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CristianFso are you suggesting not be focusing on Nova?18:28
bdpayneyeah, that's the most recent one that came out for Nova18:28
bdpayneoh, I think it is useful to look at Nova18:28
shohel02i am not saying that... i am saying its useful18:28
bdpaynejust commenting that you may find less18:28
bdpaynewhich would be great18:29
bknudsonI was suggesting someplace to focus on.18:29
bdpaynebut it is very important to review, in my opinion18:29
shohel02it would be hard job with huge code base18:29
shohel02very important one18:29
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bknudsonlike keystone was looking at auth_token18:29
bdpayneso yeah, image handling, also looking at interactions with the drivers (esp libvirt) and how the users can influence that18:29
bdpaynealso looking at scheduling18:29
bdpaynethose are the areas I'd focus on, personally18:30
CristianFgot it, yes this is big.. I am following a top-down approach, for later taking drilling down on some specific area18:30
CristianFok, thanks for the feedback18:30
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shohel02bknudson has good point,18:31
bdpaynewell, I think that's about all we have time for today18:32
bdpaynethanks everyone... cya next time18:33
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"18:33
openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr  3 18:33:17 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:33
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harlowja#startmeeting openstack-state-management19:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Apr  3 19:00:55 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is harlowja. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)"19:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_state_management'19:01
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harlowjaanyone around, if not short meeting i guess ;)19:01
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harlowjak, waiting for 5 more minutes ;)19:06
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praneshptaskflow meeting going on here?19:06
harlowjapraneshp not many people showing up, bahha19:06
harlowjaguess all away or something :-P19:07
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harlowjacan have micro-meeting :-P19:07
harlowjaguess i'll just do a small report, lol19:07
harlowja#topic 0.2 released19:07
*** openstack changes topic to "0.2 released (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)"19:07
harlowja#topic 0.2.1 release19:08
*** openstack changes topic to "0.2.1 release (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)"19:08
harlowjaso we have a few small bugs and features for 0.2.119:08
harlowjaso far BPs for 0.2.119:08
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harlowjaand bugs19:10
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1302089 in taskflow/0.2.1 "Exception in worker queue thread" [Critical,In progress]19:10
harlowjaso hopefully can have that next weekish19:10
harlowja#topic 0.319:10
*** openstack changes topic to "0.3 (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)"19:10
harlowjawill wait around for that one when more people are here, like to get more feedback for 0.319:11
harlowja#topic lazy-engine19:11
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harlowjasame with this one, will report back on IRC or email/ML when more of this gets flushed out19:12
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harlowjaso thats my status update :)19:12
harlowja#topic open-discuss19:12
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harlowjaalright, short meeting then19:15
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harlowjaif people need to discuss more and are just not around #openstack-state-management19:15
harlowjafind most of us there (including me!)19:15
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openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr  3 19:17:31 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)19:17
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harlowjaalright, anyone around for the next real meeting, the last one was a fake, lol20:00
harlowjai blame DST and all that20:00
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iv_mhi there20:02
harlowjaone sec, switching to wireless20:02
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harlowja#startmeeting openstack-state-management20:03
openstackMeeting started Thu Apr  3 20:03:47 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is harlowja. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)"20:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_state_management'20:03
harlowjaso this is the second fun meeting today20:04
harlowjai sorta messedup the other meeting, lol, wrong time ;20:04
harlowjathe stuff from last meeting, 1 hour ago, lol20:04
harlowja#topic time-shift20:05
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harlowjaiv_m so 1900 UTC is better for u right20:05
iv_myup, thanks a lot!20:05
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harlowjanp, just lets u sleep a little i guess20:06
harlowjamore sleep, lol20:06
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harlowjafor the 0.2.1 do u think thats fine iv_m , from last hour ago meeting, just some small fixes20:07
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harlowjamainly some small blueprints and any other bugs we find20:07
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iv_mharlowja: looks good20:08
harlowjachangbl yt20:08
harlowjaas for 0.3, i was thinking we can go through the current BPs and tag them20:08
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harlowjaand depending on what the mistral collaboration is we can figure out other new ones20:09
harlowjalets jump into that, and maybe we can discuss that a little20:10
harlowja#topic mistral-engine-ideas20:10
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harlowjai think the idea is becoming more clear, and i think it may not actually be that big of a change20:10
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harlowjabasically an engine that doesn't keep active while running (but could do 1 execution iteration, and stop and repeat...)20:11
harlowjaand then it can be mistral that does all the iterations on its own time20:11
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harlowjadkrause also had the idea of allowing tasks to write there own logbook data so that the engine doesn't even have to do that on there behalf20:12
harlowjathat would make the engine do even less (or could do less, depending on the selected engine type)20:12
harlowjait would still allow us to retain the existing types (which would just be the 'all in one' solution)20:12
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iv_mtasks saving their own results?20:13
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dkrauseit would allow us to stop the engine while tasks were still running remotely (for engines that don't run tasks in the same process as the engine)20:14
harlowjaya, i'm not 100% clear on it also, but i think instead of an engine interacting with storage, task itself could in some cases save its own failure/result into the storage backend (in some cases, failures may not be possible to do this, especially if task/worker running task crashes)20:14
iv_mthat practically makes database open for remote workers; nova invented conductor to avoid it20:15
harlowjait would make what is suspension a little hard to define, since an engine can suspend itself, but tasks could actually still be running (which would make the resuming part a little awkard, since if a engine is resumed before the previous tasks that were running before suspension finished that might be odd)20:16
harlowjaiv_m thats a good point20:16
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dkrausehmm... so what mechanism would a task use to notify a conductor of it's results?20:16
dkrauseassuming there's no running engine20:16
iv_mresuming while tasks are running is on our list anyway; without it it is hard to resume e.g. worker-based engine properly20:17
harlowjai think there has to be a running something, either an entrypoint the tasks could call (like a rest endpoint)20:17
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harlowjathe task finishes right now, it sends a response back to the engine via MQ (but it could send a response to some other entrypoint, that isn't an engine, but a engine-factory that would do the next execution iteration)20:18
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harlowjai think thats part of the mistral idea20:18
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dkrauseif the conductor used a polling model, the results could be passed back through the queue, but that might not be what mistral is looking for20:19
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dkrausethat is, a conductor would be required to keep engine instances (though not running ones) and have them poll for results periodically20:21
harlowjai think there thinking of something more like allowing some thing other than the running engine to be a results reciever, this reciever could then reconstruct the engine (that now isn't running) and figure out what to do next with whatever results were given20:21
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harlowjadkrause ya, it could possibly be something like that20:21
harlowjaalthough i'd rather not poll if we can :-/20:21
iv_mdkrause: i don't see why polling would be required20:22
harlowjathe conductor could watch (for example) a zookeeper directory that tasks would write into and then zookeeper will notify the conductor automagically20:23
harlowjalots of ideas :)20:24
iv_mafaik mistral exposes http entry point for workers to report to; our worker-based engine does pretty much the same but with amqp20:24
harlowjaiv_m right20:24
iv_m* or kombu virtual transports20:24
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iv_mi wrote some thoughs on 'lazy engine' idea to ML about an hour ago20:25
harlowjaah, k, will check20:25
iv_mi short, i don't think engine interface should be affected20:25
harlowjahmmm, intersting20:25
iv_minstead, we might refactor and make task executors public20:25
harlowjanot something like run_iter()20:26
harlowjathat could be useful (maybe)20:26
iv_mrun_iter looks too internal20:26
iv_mi think i would like to see separation of concens20:26
harlowjakk, will checkout ML20:27
iv_mone concern is to run a flow -- prepare tasks and patterns, load it to engine, and so on20:27
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iv_mmaybe we'll need API to 'run and forget' -- a call that will schedule a flow but not wait for completion20:27
iv_manother concern is executing tasks20:27
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iv_mtask executors don't need to know anything about flows or engines or engine internals20:28
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harlowjaintersting, will think it over20:29
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dkrauseI definitely like the idea of a decoupled task executor20:30
iv_mexecutors may be shared between engines and just colling provided callbacks, or setting resutls to futures which is pretty much same thing but with somewhat different implications20:30
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iv_mi think i'll try to experiment with callback-based task executor interface on weekend20:31
dkrauseI don't see how this will help with the problem that our current engine model is synchronous20:31
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dkrause"run" is expected to return only after a completed flow20:32
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dkrausehow are we going to accomplish a "lazy engine" with this model?20:32
iv_mas i said above, what whe might need is just something like 'run_async' in engine interface that schedules the flow but not waits for its completion -- e. g. retuns future, or we can just rely on notifications20:33
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iv_mthat can be easily done even with current engines20:33
iv_m#link related to that20:34
harlowjaso run_async returns future, then mistral can basically throw that future away if it wants?20:34
harlowjaand just wait for some notifications to do more actions?20:34
harlowja*whatever those actions are*20:35
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harlowjahmmm, i wonder how this would work, if mistral also replaces task_executors with something of its own20:36
harlowjamaybe i guess a small example code would make it more clear20:36
harlowjai sorta get the idea (maybe), ha20:37
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harlowjadkrause sounds ok? maybe more clear with some code ;)20:37
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iv_m#action iv_m describe idea on lazy engine with executors on wiki or somewhere, with code examples if possible20:38
harlowjasounds great20:38
harlowjathx iv_m :)20:38
dkrauseyeah, I'd like to see details on how callbacks are handled - it sounds good, but there are some pieces that are unclear to me20:38
harlowjaagreed, i'll have to let my brain think it over a little to20:39
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iv_mwell, i guess when all pieces are cleare all's left is to press couple of gerrit buttons20:39
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harlowjahopefully the mistral peopel can get involved in coding this to, that'd be nice20:40
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harlowjaalright, lets openup for anything else20:41
harlowja#topic open-discuss20:41
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harlowjadkrause another idea we've been thinking about is instead of doing iterjobs and such, we should also provide such callback interface to be notified of new jobs appearing20:42
harlowjajust didn't get around to it for 0.220:42
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harlowjai think that'd probably be useful for your case20:42
dkrauseit definitely would20:42
harlowjato avoid all the looping crap20:42
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harlowjalet me see if i can expose that, although i'm not sure how something like redis would work in this manner20:42
harlowjazookeeper has 'watches' that can provide this, but redis or others not really sure20:43
dkrausewhich brings up the question: is this actually a "conductor", or is that concept entirely different from what I proposed here?
harlowjahmmm, it seems like a conductor to me, although naming isn't my strong suit :)20:43
harlowjacould be called jobmanager to, but seems the same20:44
dkrauseI feel like what I'm proposing there is very useful, but I also don't want to step on anyone's toes if we're going to define a specific role and interface for something called a conductor20:44
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harlowjai don't think u steping on anyones toes :)20:44
harlowjaalthough nova and others have a conductor20:44
harlowjabut in concept there's is similar20:44
harlowjait does some work onbehalf of others20:44
harlowja*conducts work on behalf of others20:45
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harlowjathe mistral interconnect could also be a conductor, although that i think is to much unknown so far20:46
harlowja*whatever said mistral interconnect finally is*20:46
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dkrausealright. I'll keep doing what I'm doing there for now20:46
harlowjasounds good20:47
harlowja#action harlowja writeup small bp for jobboard 'notification' (not always requiring iteration)20:47
harlowja#action harlowja  implement that, ha20:47
harlowjacool, anything else to sync up on?20:47
harlowjaremember switch to 1900 UTC if we need further meetings so that iv_m can sleep more20:48
harlowjagooing once20:48
iv_m#info state management meeting moved to Thu, 1900 UTC20:49
harlowjathx :)20:49
* iv_m always wanted to try that command =)20:49
harlowjagoing twiiiceeee20:49
harlowjaand sold to iv_m20:49
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"20:49
openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr  3 20:49:40 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)20:49
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mtreinish#startmeeting qa22:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Apr  3 22:00:14 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mtreinish. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.22:00
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'qa'22:00
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mtreinishhi who do we have here today?22:00
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mtreinish^^^ Today's agenda22:00
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mtreinishok lets get started22:01
mtreinish#topic Summit sessions (mtreinish)22:01
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mtreinishso I started an etherpad to track design summit proposals:22:02
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mtreinishI thought it would be good to do what we did last cycle and have a discussion in the meeting about the sessions22:02
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sdaguewhat else has been submitted into the tool?22:03
mtreinishso if people had ideas for a summit session if you could put them in the etherpad22:03
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mtreinishsdague: right now there are only 222:03
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sdagueprobably worth transposing them to the etherpad22:03
mtreinish"A case for project level functional testing" and "Rally & Tempest integration (future steps)"22:03
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sdaguethe first one sounds like an overlap of the one dkranz put in22:04
dkranzsdague: It is22:04
dkranzsdague: I didn't know about the others22:04
dkranzsdague: My bad22:04
sdaguedkranz: no worries22:04
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cyeohI guess we should talk about how we can reduce the code overlap between v2 and v3 tests, but I doubt we need whole session on that22:04
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sdaguecyeoh: well, a refactoring for maintainability session might be good22:05
sdagueinclude that22:05
mtreinishcyeoh: yeah probably not, but it could be part of a larger session22:05
sdagueplus other items people have22:05
sdagueI still kind of want to do the nice skip decorators, but that's back burner22:05
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mtreinishso anyway if people have ideas if they can put them on the etherpad and we'll go through it in a couple of weeks during the meeting22:06
sdagueyeh, probably plan for 3 weeks out22:06
sdagueas decision time22:06
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* mtreinish needs to look at a calendar22:06
mtreinishok that's all I had to talk about on this for now22:06
mtreinishso let's move on22:07
mtreinish#topic  Blueprints22:07
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mtreinishso sdague why don't you start of on the specs stuff22:07
sdaguethere are the open specs we currently have22:07
sdaguecurrently all of qa-core has +2 rights, which I think is right22:08
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sdaguethough we should probably by convention let the PTL do +A22:08
sdaguejust to make sure they are in on the vote22:08
sdagueor ack it22:08
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sdagueI think right now we have one that's fully ready22:09
sdagueand I went through the rest of them and provided some feedback on additions22:09
cyeoh+1 for the +A policy22:09
sdagueanyone have objectsions to  ?22:09
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mtreinishsdague: I hope not it's mostly implemented :)22:09
sdagueotherwise I'll land that one as our first one22:10
sdagueok, done22:10
dkranzsdague: No, but should this include an 'admin' tag or is that a different bp?22:10
mtreinishdkranz: this is just the service tagging22:10
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dkranzmtreinish: ok22:10
mtreinishlike compute, image, etc...22:10
sdaguedkranz: I think admin clean is a different qa-spec22:10
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sdaguecan you do a draft on that?22:10
mtreinishwhich all thats left on is going through and finding where we need to tag things22:11
sdagueI know you were very interested in that yesterday22:11
dkranzsdague: Yes22:11
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cyeohre: 83264 can you do a hacking check to see if someone does add a service name which does exist in the path22:12
sdague#action dkranz to draft no admin qa-spec22:12
cyeohand flag an error if it occurs? Just to save inconsistencies creeping in accidentally22:12
mtreinishcyeoh: was that not in there. I intend to it came up during the spec review22:12
cyeohmtreinish: cool!22:12
mtreinishor I thought it did22:12
sdaguewell, if not, we can always do an ammendment :)22:12
mtreinishno it's in there L5222:13
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mtreinishit's just not a work item...22:13
sdaguecyeoh, dkranz: would you guys mind doing a run through the existing specs and providing comments as well22:13
sdagueI'd like to get us used to this model of making sure we have bases covered22:13
dkranzsdague: Will do22:13
cyeohsdague: ok22:14
sdaguefortunately we've only got a few, so it's pretty quick22:14
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mtreinishI'm also going get the infra side setup soon22:14
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sdague#action sdague to reset all non high blueprints, point people at qa-specs22:14
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mtreinishso we'll publish the specs somewhere22:14
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mtreinishwhen they get merged22:14
sdaguemtreinish: I'm not sure why22:14
mtreinishit looks pretty22:15
sdagueI really feel like the specs are ok in git22:15
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sdaguebecause the blueprint is really the entry point22:15
cyeohhaving read through a few long nova ones, I think its easier to read in processed html22:15
sdaguecyeoh: ok22:15
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sdaguethen I'll defer22:15
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mtreinishsdague: ok is there anything else to discuss on the specs?22:16
sdagueonly one last thing22:16
sdagueI feel like we should have ~4 specs landed as examples before we open this up to the wide world via ML22:16
sdagueso will hold off a few22:17
sdagueok, done, we can move on22:17
mtreinishthat seems fair22:17
mtreinishok then let's discuss bps in progress22:17
mtreinishzhikunliu: you put something on the agenda22:17
mtreinishgo ahead22:18
zhikunliuwe have already create basic cinder v2 tests. Not sure if we should continue to port v1 tests to v2 like nova v2 to v322:18
mtreinishzhikunliu: how much duplication is there between v1 and v2?22:19
mtreinishwe want to have good coverage for both22:19
zhikunliuabout 10 test files22:20
mtreinishcyeoh and ken1ohmichi have been more plugged in with the nova v2 v3 stuff so they may have some advice22:20
ken1ohmichiOK, I will see cinder API tests.22:20
zhikunliuthank you!22:21
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mtreinishzhikunliu: so we want to exercise both the v1 and v2 apis. It's just a question of we go about implementing that. Inheritance vs 2 copies for example22:21
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cyeohyea I guess it comes down to how similar the APIs look - we tried along the way but weren't that succesfull, but ken1ohmichi has some examples of a direction we'll probably take22:21
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sdagueyeh, the nova v2 api is exceptionally odd though22:22
sdaguemaybe we can do better here22:22
ken1ohmichiyes, the sample is
sdagueso I would honestly really encourage this to take place in a qa-spec -  because I think that provides a really good way of reviewing the approach22:22
sdagueand then we can all be agreed on approach and just review for correctness22:23
ken1ohmichiI got it. I will propose it to qa-specs22:23
ken1ohmichias the one of the samples:)22:23
cyeoh+1, though I don't think it hurts to have a bit of POC code to point to22:23
sdagueken1ohmichi: great22:23
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sdaguecyeoh: agreed22:23
mtreinishzhikunliu: ok is there anything else on that bp?22:24
zhikunliuno, thanks...22:24
mtreinishok does anyone have any other bps they'd like to bring up?22:24
sdagueif not, I'd actually like to jump to the tempest branch discussion22:25
sdaguebecause I want to make sure we give that enough time, for folks that we're in -qa channel yesterday to see it22:25
dkranzsdague: I think I got through classifying about half of the failures22:25
mtreinishok then let's move onto that22:25
mtreinish#topic Tempest branching strategy22:25
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mtreinishsdague: you've got the floor22:26
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sdagueso background22:26
sdaguestarting at about 2014-04-02T13:29:0822:26
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sdaguea question came up about the state of tempest as a validation tool for the openstack brand22:27
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sdagueand out of that conversation I asked the question: does tempest really need branches?22:27
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sdaguebecause it *should* be testing an API that is invariant between releases22:28
dkranzsdague: I think it needs versions, not branches, like client libraries.22:28
sdagueor changed in ways that are detectable/flaggable22:28
sdaguedkranz: sure, lets get to that in a sec22:28
sdaguewe have 2 weeks before we would normally set the stable/icehouse branch22:28
sdagueso now is the time to decide if maybe we don't22:29
sdagueand use master tempest on stable/icehouse and master going forward, and try to get tempest master to work against stable/havana22:29
cyeohso I'm not saying I'm opposed to it, but my concern is if we branch of the overhead of adding new tests22:29
cyeohhaving to add them to multiple branches if we want to use them as a validation tool22:30
sdaguecyeoh: vs. the cost of backporting them?22:30
sdaguebecause thinks like defcore/refstack are going to lag22:30
sdagueat icehouse summit they are going to put out a havana based tool22:30
sdaguewhich vendors will want to fix22:30
cyeohthey are going to want to fix the tool?22:31
dkranzcyeoh: The tool is going to run tempest22:31
sdagueI am sure they will object to some results22:31
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sdagueand they may be correct in tempest fixes that should land, and then backport22:31
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sdaguethe reason we set a branch today is because until this release we didn't have a feature enable mechanism22:32
sdagueso branch was a giant feature flag22:32
mtreinishsdague: well we did but it was a mess22:32
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sdaguehavana nova supports X22:32
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sdagueicehouse nova support X + Y22:33
sdaguehowever the feature flag model should mean that new extensions just come in under a feature flag, for instance22:33
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mtreinishsdague: so the prereq for this on devstack as I said yesterday22:33
dkranzsdague: The big advantage of running master is that adding tests always lags the release22:33
mtreinishwe have to make sure we lock the feature set in the devstack config for stable/icehouse22:34
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dkranzsdague: RIght not there are many tests in master that can and should run when testing havana22:34
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dkranzsdague: And many that don't due to questionable api changes22:34
sdaguedkranz: sure22:34
cyeohso just to clarify for me how this would work - if we add Nova API V2 tests during Juno, what would we have to do to ensure they are added for both Juno Nova API testing as well as say Icehouse22:34
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sdaguetempest master would gate on master and stable/icehouse of all the server projects22:35
mtreinishcyeoh: but they should given the stable api :)22:35
dkranzcyeoh: I would say they should run on both by default22:35
cyeohdkranz: yep that's what I'd like the default to be22:35
cyeohmtreinish: yea, they *should* :-)22:35
sdagueI've been working on devstack gate branch overrides that would let us specify that behavior22:35
dkranzcyeoh: And if a test doesn't run due to a havana bug that was fixed iceshouse we tag it as >havana22:35
sdaguecyeoh: so it will only be 1 add to tempest22:36
sdagueand it will gate on both branches22:36
sdagueso you know if it works or not22:36
cyeohsdague: ok, sounds great then :-)22:36
dkranzsdague: So are we going to double the gate jobs ?22:36
mtreinishdkranz: we have to22:36
sdaguefor tempest22:36
dkranzsdague: Actually triple since havana + icehouse + master22:36
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dkranzsdague: That is my biggest concern with this approach22:36
mtreinishdkranz: this will only be for icehouse forward22:36
sdagueit's only on tempest22:37
dkranzsdague: Ah, ok22:37
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sdaguemtreinish: I think getting havana over is still on the table22:37
sdaguedepending on how much work it is22:37
mtreinishit is but the discussion now is about what we do on the 17th22:37
mtreinishwe still have the havana branch whether we like it or not22:37
sdagueright, for the 17th, it would be just icehouse + master22:37
dkranzmtreinish: I don't see why we have to commit22:37
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sdagueI'll put the havana jobs on nv, and if we get it working, we'll delete the havana branch, and win22:38
sdagueif not22:38
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sdagueit ages out in 5 months22:38
dkranzsdague: But it can't if refstack is using it22:38
dkranzsdague: I mean can't age out22:39
sdaguehavana still stops being supported in 5 months22:39
mtreinishdkranz: havana goes eol in 5 months22:39
sdagueopenstack policy hasn't changed in that regard22:39
mtreinishwe just did it for grizzly22:39
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dkranzsdague: That doesn't mean refstack will stop using it. Have you told them this intent?22:39
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dkranzsdague: Cause it makes no sense from their standpoint22:39
dkranzsdague: Of course it could just be cloned into a refstack repo at that point.22:40
sdaguedkranz: honestly, I'm not policing them, I have lots of other things to do :)22:40
dkranzsdague: RIght :)22:40
dkranzsdague: Based on my results so far I think it is very doable to get master to work with havana22:40
sdagueken1ohmichi, masayukig any thoughts on this one? I'd like to know if there are other problems we haven't thought about yet22:40
sdaguedkranz: great22:41
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dkranzsdague: We just need a tagging strategy for the breaks due to bug fixes in icehouse and api changes22:41
sdagueI should have gate jobs running nv tomorrow that will let us do that22:41
sdaguedkranz: example?22:41
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ken1ohmichihonestly, I am not familar with refstack.22:42
sdaguedkranz: I was wondering about "tagging strategy"22:42
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sdagueken1ohmichi: refstack is basically a website that some foundation folks will run where you can submit tempest tests22:42
dkranzken1ohmichi: It is the "use tempest to gate use of OpenStack trademark"22:42
sdaguetest results22:43
sdaguefor your product22:43
sdagueas a piece of trademark use policy22:43
sdaguethey are still working out all the trademark details22:43
dkranzsdague: about tagging strategy, I think we should have a tag saying a test is enabled as of some version22:43
sdaguerunning a subset of tempest successfully will be a part of what you need to do to get the trademark22:43
mtreinishdkranz: that should be handled by config22:43
sdagueright, I agree with mtreinish22:44
ken1ohmichioh, thanks. I got it little.22:44
maurosrsdague: one thing that came to my mind is the maintenance burden, like in this situation we  cant remove nova's xml tests22:44
dkranzmtreinish: how? some of the tests have different havana/icehouse behavior due to api change22:44
maurosr(not sure if you guys touched this matter, lost my connection)22:44
masayukigsdague: Does refstack still uses grizzly?22:44
sdaguemaurosr: that's true, at least not for a while22:44
sdaguemasayukig: they are building on havana atm22:44
sdaguefrom what I understand22:44
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mtreinishdkranz: well those types of changes will be blocked by tempest in the first place22:45
mtreinishit really only becomes a problem for when we add new test coverage22:45
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dkranzmtreinish: which we did in icehouse22:45
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maurosrsince api changes are not supposed to happen I guess that is a 'good break'22:45
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dkranzmtreinish: And the tests were not blocked. We changed them.22:45
dkranzmtreinish: YOu can see examples in that etherpad22:46
maurosrit's something that maybe cant work planty right now, but will be good at long term22:46
mtreinishdkranz: yes because we default everything on everywhere22:46
mtreinishbut if we have a static set of what's expected in devstack for icehouse22:46
mtreinishthen those new tests won't run22:46
sdaguedkranz: there are definitely details here on what the 2 step is, but I think those are doable22:46
dkranzmtreinish: But why shouldn't a new test for a stable API in a previous version run?22:46
dkranzagainst the old version22:47
dkranzmtreinish: I agree we can do better icehouse->juno22:47
mtreinishdkranz: it should but we'd need a devstack change to add it to the stable job (it's just a shift in the 2 step)22:47
sdagueso I think what we probably want to do is after stable/icehouse on devstack is set22:47
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sdaguewe generate the full extension list and hardcode it in devstack stable/icehouse22:47
sdaguebut it floats on master22:47
sdagueso stuff is auto added22:48
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mtreinishsdague: exactly22:48
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sdaguebut that's actually after the 17th22:48
mtreinishyeah it would have to be because we need the stable branch on devstack22:48
dkranzsdague: That's fine but half the problem. The other part is stuff that actually changed, or that works in icehouse but not havana due to an unfixed bug in havana22:48
sdaguedkranz: sure22:48
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dkranzsdague: At a minimum we could just skip all the fails I found for havana.22:48
dkranzsdague: That would be a better test than what is on stable/havana now.22:49
sdaguewell, I don't want to branch skip22:49
sdagueI think that logic gets nutty22:49
sdagueso we either fix it, feature flag it, or the job doesn't vote22:49
dkranzsdague: Why? We just classify the test as belonging to a new feature. Just a funny one.22:49
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sdaguebecause we're already going to have 200 features22:50
sdaguethat are real ones22:50
dkranzsdague: And this would be one more.22:50
sdagueI think if we invent funny ones that we can't double check on real extension lists we're going to get it wrong22:50
sdaguethere is a big who watches the watcher thing here22:50
dkranzsdague: Anyway, the goal is to run master against havana with as many tests as we can get to work.22:51
dkranzsdague: We need to figure the details but not right now.22:51
ken1ohmichisdague: the extension list means API list?22:51
sdagueken1ohmichi: yes22:51
mtreinishken1ohmichi: yeah it's the api_extensions config option22:51
dkranzsdague: What I am talking about is more like bug skipping than feature config.22:51
ken1ohmichisdague: ok, masayukig has automatic API list feature on gerrit as you know.22:52
sdaguedkranz: yep, I know, but it complicates things when you need to do branch selection22:52
ken1ohmichisdague: will it be useful it?22:52
sdaguebecause tempest doesn't know that22:52
sdagueken1ohmichi: I don't know, that's a good question22:52
dkranzsdague: no, you would have to tell it. I will propose something when I get through the list.22:52
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sdagueI think not exactly here22:52
mtreinishthat's all we need for this22:53
mtreinishmore or less22:53
sdagueok, any other thoughts on this?22:54
mtreinishsdague: you should probably send something out the ML announcing this change22:54
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ken1ohmichimtreinish: thanks:)22:54
sdaguemtreinish: yeh, I want to get the first data results tomorrow before hand to make sure the jobs are even doable :)22:54
sdaguebut then I will22:54
sdague#action sdague to bring up branchless tempest on mailing list22:55
sdagueok, so in the 5 minutes left, I want to give an early congrats to mtreinish on being QA-PTL-elect :)22:55
mtreinishactually I was going to move onto critical reviews22:56
cyeohmtreinish: congrats!22:56
mtreinishbut I'm fine with that too :)22:56
sdagueofficially the hat passes at the release22:56
sdagueso in 2 weeks22:56
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sdagueso I'll try to clean up a few things before abdicating to him :)22:56
sdagueok, 4 minutes for critical reviews22:57
sdague3 minus22:57
mtreinishwho knows I might pull an Andrew Jackson and make you flee your house after it's official in a few hours :)22:57
mtreinish#topic Critical Reviews22:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Critical Reviews (Meeting topic: qa)"22:57
mtreinishso does anyone have any reviews they want to bring up?22:57
mlavalleCan core reviewers take a look at these neutron api tests:22:58
mtreinishmasayukig: ooh testscenarios fun22:58
mtreinishmlavalle: sure22:59
sdagueok, I think we are out of time22:59
masayukigmtreinish: Separate the class vs Merge the class22:59
mtreinishok thanks everyone22:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"23:00
openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr  3 23:00:04 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)23:00
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openstackMinutes (text):
maurosrtks bye23:00
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