Thursday, 2014-05-01

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-openstackstatus- NOTICE: the gate is still fairly backed up, though nodepool is back on track and chipping away at remaining changes. some py3k/pypy node starvation is slowing recovery00:04
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Daisy_Hello, who are there for I18n meeting?07:59
jpichHey o/07:59
jpichIt's a public holiday in most of Europe today so there might not be many people08:00
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Daisy_It's a public holiday for Chinese people too. :)08:00
Daisy_Thank you for working in your holidays, jpich and epico.08:00
jpichAh, it's not a holiday for me :)08:00
Daisy_Let's start.08:00
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Daisy_#startmeeting OpenStack I18n08:01
openstackMeeting started Thu May  1 08:01:43 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Daisy_. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n)"08:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_i18n'08:01
Daisy_Good morning and good afternoon, everyone.08:01
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epicogood afternoon08:02
ujuc_phoneHi :)08:02
ygboHi, good morning everyone :-)08:02
Daisy_We will have I18n meeting now.08:02
Daisy_Hi, ygbo08:02
Daisy_Welcome to join.08:02
Daisy_#topic Whether to including the final : with strings08:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Whether to including the final : with strings (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n)"08:03
Daisy_I guess, all of you have understood the problem.08:03
Daisy_In my mind, the question can be changed to "whether to keep punctuation in translatable strings".08:04
Daisy_The punctuation could include: colon, comma, full stop mark, and space.08:04
Daisy_I don't know if I'm right. Let me know your thoughts.08:04
jpichIf including the punctuation is necessary for a team to produce high quality translations, I think we should keep it. Otherwise the translations just look wrong in some languages08:05
DeeJay1Trailing/leading spaces in English strings IMHO have to go, the rest can stay - I came to the conclusions that else it could pose problems with right to left languages08:05
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jpichArticles like (point 6) recommend keeping it, in particular because of French08:05
Daisy_I agree, jpich, to keep them.  My point is to include punctuation. In Chinese, punctuation should also be translated. In Chinese, we have different characters for English colon and Chinese colon.08:06
Daisy_I think, the question is space.08:06
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ygboDeeJay1 is right, inside strings, translators will be able to handle them, but trailing ones when concanated will not be properly handled in all languages.08:06
jpichI agree with DeeJay1 re:spaces :)08:06
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Daisy_Is space important ? Is it important to add spaces at the end of a string?08:07
jpichI don't think so.08:07
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ygboDaisy_: "in english: we say this", "en français : on dit ça" <- different spacing08:07
DeeJay1I thinks it's just bad design, if spaces have to be used for a visual indent08:08
Daisy_Space is also a punctuation. It can separate words, right?08:08
jpichygbo: I think we're talking about strings like "Image details" vs "Image details "08:08
ygboDaisy_: right08:08
DeeJay1yes, but trailing spaces are only in cases like "My string " + "other string" - which is bad code08:08
Daisy_If codes like "Image details " + varaibleS08:08
ygbojpich: rigth too :-)08:09
DeeJay1this should be "Image details %(variable)s" % variable08:09
Daisy_If a code like "Image details "+<a variable>, I think, space is necessary.08:09
Daisy_All right, DeeJay108:09
ygboSo this is why the variable should be "in" the string08:10
DeeJay1yup, but in such cases the translator doesn't even know that something is coming after the string08:10
Daisy_We are not able to think out a scenario that space is necessary, right? Think carefully.08:10
* epico also thinks it is bad code.08:10
ygbobecause if the variable is "in" the string, the translator can move it around, words are not at the same place in all languages, and concatenation leeds to words at the wrong place in some languages.08:11
Daisy_I think there are bast practices for coding, and we should document them.08:11
epicothe code like "My string " + "other string" usually is avoid in gettext.08:12
jpichAgreed, concatenation is bad and we need to start fixing this in Horizon. Dough Fish and ygbo raised a few points about this on the mailing list, in answer to today's meeting agenda08:12
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Daisy_ygbo: what's your point? Keep space or not?08:12
Daisy_ygbo, I got your point.08:12
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ygboDaisy_: we should not concatenate strings and use variables instead, and we would not need trailing spaces anymore.08:13
ygboDaisy_: translators might need to move variables around, while they can not change the order of concatenation.08:14
Daisy_let me summarize08:14
Daisy_the punctuation is necessary for a team to produce high quality translations, we should keep it, except spaces.08:14
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Daisy_Developers should avoid to concatenate strings and use variables instead, in order to avoid a string ending with spaces.08:15
jpichSounds good to me.08:16
jpichEr, +108:16
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rajeshrDaisy_, Since there is a character Visarga (ः) in Hindi similar to colon, so to avoid the problem translator sometime use long dash instead of the colon. If we need want to use colon, we should put one space before the colon.08:17
Daisy_Thanks. So I will put it as a comments to and
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1296075 in horizon "Needles duplication in strings" [Low,In progress]08:17
jpichThanks, Daisy_08:17
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rajeshrDaisy_, Ref:
Daisy_any comments to rajeshr 's point ?08:18
DeeJay1rajeshr: wow, nice08:18
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DeeJay1Daisy_: nope, it boils down to "include colons" in original strings08:19
* DeeJay1 is sorry for all the confusion this topic caused because of him08:19
Daisy_rajeshr: you hope developers to use "details :" other than "details:"08:19
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jpichDeeJay1: Thanks to you we now have a clear understanding of the problem and a solution everybody agrees on :)08:20
ygboDaisy_: we should not use "details:" but "details: %(topic)s"08:20
rajeshrDaisy_, no, details: is fine, actually the above comment is for Hindi that if anybody want to use colon in Hindi better use the way suggested as it is simmilar to one char in Hindi08:21
rajeshrin English Source string should be as it is08:21
Daisy_so we are OK for the first topic now ?08:21
Daisy_let's move to next topic.08:22
Daisy_#topic whether to add context-maker for better translations08:23
*** openstack changes topic to "whether to add context-maker for better translations (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n)"08:23
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Daisy_I think this one is harder. :)08:23
ygboYep :-)08:23
fdotyep :)08:23
Daisy_ygbo: would you like to say something about it ?08:24
ygbothe issue is that "we do not necessarely need contextual markers in a string like this one" <-08:24
ygbo"here we need some" <- (too short)08:24
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ygbosome strings just have a single word , an example is "May" <- is it the month or the verbe granting permission?08:25
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jpichI think there are also two aspects to the question: whether to do it for future strings (I think yes, and that this is the easy question), and what to do with existing strings as this may force retranslating them (though hopefully the translation memory would help?)08:25
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ygbothis is where fdot can say something about it08:26
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fdotI am agree on the first part for adding context in new string.08:26
fdotBut for the second part, i think we should not change anything08:27
Daisy_amotoki had introduced context-maker in Havana release, and it caused the translators have to retranslate them.08:27
fdotlet's leave the strings already translated08:27
Daisy_translation memory can help.08:27
fdotyes but translating again and again is not a good idea08:28
jpichfdot, what if the some languages have wrong/awkward translations because of this? Maybe we can fix only the ones we know are a problem? (When translators report them?)08:28
fdotfor communities they will just see the same strings to translate again08:28
Daisy_If users report bugs/issues to complain about the translation quality, and we have to separate 1 string into two strings in the original language, we have to add context, even we have to re-translate them.08:28
ygboWe should use contextual markers on new strings, and on "string change", but we can't use them on all the existing ones because as fdot mentionned it, the whole work done by translators would be lost and have to be redone.08:28
fdotjpich agree but08:28
Daisy_jpich: agree.08:29
fdotit depends of languages ;)08:29
DeeJay1IMHO every introduction of a contextual marker to an existing string should be followed by fixing (copying the existing strings) the po files by that developer and an email to i18n list08:29
jpichI don't think we can add a contextual marker just for one language though :)08:29
fdotin french we can have a strange for a word but the translation could be nice for the others language ;)08:29
Daisy_amotoki reported the bug because Japanese had the issue.08:29
ygbojpich: indeed, contextual markers have to be language agnostic, they have to put a context on where the words or part of sentence is used.08:30
jpichIt seems ok to me to report a bug + fix it in the code if a language is broken because of the lack of contextual marker08:31
Daisy_so I think, if there is issues in any languages, we should fix it.08:31
ygbos/the words or/the words are/08:31
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jpichDeeJay1: The po files are updated automatically by Jenkins, I don't think the devs can do that manually08:31
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Daisy_any thoughts about adding context to new strings? any rules?08:32
rajeshrI am confused, i think we should use msgctxt irrespective of language08:32
epicomaybe just use msgctxt when it has problems for some languages?08:32
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ygboepico: the problem is we can not forward guess which language will be impacted, imho, new strings should have msgctxt.08:33
jpichI think that's it yes. Context markers for new strings, only add to existing strings if a language team reports a problem08:33
rajeshrI don't think so, the language is so diverse and leaving it for translator to decide will be bad in long run08:33
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jpichBy the way, this will require some documentation for developer education (probably from ygbo, you seem familiar with it?), so we can learn when to use them and how to make them useful08:34
ygbojpich: also add if a string changes.08:34
rajeshrepico, so better use context marker whenever we think of any confusion08:34
epicoI think msgctxt is needed when the translatable string appears more than once...08:34
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ygbojpich: sure :-)08:34
ygboepico: exactly :-)08:35
jpichygbo: Thanks! :)08:35
epicoif the string only happens in one place, we don't bother to add the context marker.08:35
epicoygbo, :)08:35
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epicoin other OSS project, msgctxt is used when needed, I think.08:36
rajeshrepico, that is okay, but if any confusion developer see they can put a localization note like thing08:36
ygboepico: well, if it's a new string, we better still add one, because no one knows if we will have the same string somewhere else in the future. however, we don't need it for long sentences where the context is aparent in the sentence itsself.08:36
epicorajeshr, yeah :)08:37
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Daisy_so let me summarize again.08:38
Daisy_ Context markers for new strings, only add to existing strings if a language team reports a problem08:38
ygboIf the developper knows a word can have different meanings (example "may"), there the context is necessary.08:38
jpichOr if you change an existing string, I think ygbo would like to add?08:38
ygbojpich: +1 :-)08:39
Daisy_ygbo to add  some documentation for developer education.08:39
epicoygbo, I think maybe we can get the times of strings used in the pot file.08:39
Daisy_the exact string only appear once in pot file.08:39
epicoDaisy_, yes08:40
Daisy_exact same string only appear once08:40
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epicobut the places of things is listed in the comment, feel correct me if I am wrong about it.08:40
jpichWhat's the goal of the once-off string? I'm not sure this is very visible to developers by default08:40
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Daisy_with different context, it will appear differently08:40
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epicowe can get the times from the comments in po file.08:41
epico#: tables/
epico#: templates/horizon/common/_data_table_table_actions.html:1308:41
epico#: templates/horizon/common/_workflow_step_update_members.html:1108:41
epico#: templates/horizon/common/_workflow_step_update_members.html:1708:41
epicolike above...08:41
epicomsgid "Filter"08:41
epicomsgstr ""08:41
Daisy_when we generate pot, the exact same string will appear only once. it's by default.08:41
epicoDaisy_, the information is in the comment.08:42
Daisy_epico shows a good sample.08:42
epico"Filter" is used 4 times.08:42
jpichI don't think most developers builds the po files when making a change though, since that's handled automatically by Jenkins08:42
jpichand there can be many changes so it wouldn't be easily visible08:42
jpichI'm not sure the "exact string only once" rule would be easy to enforce08:42
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* epico means to reduce msgctxt usage, just for needed cases.08:43
epicosorry, I mean for future msgctxt usage.08:43
Daisy_exact same string means same strings, no differences at all, even punctuation is same.08:44
epicoDaisy_, yes08:44
ygboepico: coders see the context in the code, but most translators do not and do not necesserly understand the python code, this is more usefull for coders to know where to look for when a translators comes asking for help.08:44
Daisy_While generating pot files, these strings will be merged into 1 msgid, and appear once in a single pot file.08:44
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* ygbo is talking abouth the line in the po where the string is08:45
epicoygbo, I mean the developer can read the pot file to decide not to use context marker for strings used only once.08:45
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epicos/not/whether or not/08:45
Daisy_if these strings are with same meaning, I think there is no need to use context.08:45
epicoDaisy_, agreed. :)08:46
Daisy_Using context will add more strings into pot file.08:46
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ygboepico: the issue is that the pot file is not generated by the developper.08:46
jpichepico: I think we'll need input from the translation team if things are missed, because most developers don't look at the po files08:46
epicojpich, okay08:46
epicobut for one place string maybe we can avoid the msgctxt.08:47
ygbo<Daisy_> if these strings are with same meaning, I think there is no need to use context. +108:47
Daisy_I think we can have a discussion when ygbo finishes the training document for developers.08:48
rajeshrDaisy_, ther is fedora SIG:
jpichSounds great :)08:48
rajeshrwork with the prob of context08:48
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Daisy_I believe in this document, there will be more details, e.g. whether to add context for one place string.08:48
ygboDaisy_: sure08:49
Daisy_great, rajeshr.08:49
Daisy_we can use them as the references.08:49
epicocould we also document the pot file of times of strings used in the document?08:49
Daisy_why we document them, epico?08:49
rajeshrDaisy_, one more on FUEL:
jpichrajeshr: Do I understand correctly that this is a team that focuses only on adding context markers??08:49
epicoDaisy_, I think developer need to add the context marker before translations...08:50
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rajeshrjpich, I know some contributor here in SIG but don;t know in detail, mailing list is also there08:50
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Daisy_I don't know if developers know about it, epico.08:51
epicoDaisy_, a guide about how to add context markers for developers.08:51
Daisy_that's what ygbo is going to wrint.08:51
jpichrajeshr: Nice! That would really help if some people took on that role too to help with new strings :-)08:51
epicoDaisy_, great. :)08:52
Daisy_let's move on, and we will have the second discussion when ygbo is done.08:52
Daisy_#topic I18n related sessions in design summit08:53
*** openstack changes topic to "I18n related sessions in design summit (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n)"08:53
epicoabout log message id generation08:53
Daisy_There is one session in infrastructure track to discuss translation tools.08:53
epicoDaisy_, jpich, guess you saw the discussion?08:54
Daisy_There is another session in cross-project track to discuss log standards, including I18n standards.08:54
Daisy_Are there any other sessions that I miss ?08:54
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jpichI think there's some conflicts with Horizon sessions again but I will try to make some i18n sessions as I can08:55
Daisy_Thanks, jpich.08:55
jpichepico: Are you working on adding error message ids?08:56
Daisy_Who will attend Atlanta summit, besides jpich ?08:56
Daisy_Let's move to open discussion08:57
epicojpich, I think both English logging and Translated logging can replace the error message id.08:57
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Daisy_#topic Open discussion08:57
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epicothe English log is fit for the developers.08:57
epicotranslated log is fit for users.08:58
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Daisy_so epico's point is that "no need to add message ID"08:58
epicoDaisy_, right.08:58
Daisy_I think, no need to add ID for all messages, but for error messages, maybe it is useful. In that point, it's not message ID, but error code.08:59
epicoDaisy_, yeah, any details?09:00
Daisy_not much details09:00
Daisy_we could discuss off line09:00
Daisy_Any other things to talk?09:01
Daisy_If no, I will close the meeting.09:01
Daisy_My network keeps on re-connecting again and again. :(09:01
Daisy_OK. Thank you all for attending.09:02
rajeshrthank you everybody09:02
Daisy_Especially thanks for people who are on holidays.09:02
ygbothank you all.09:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"09:02
openstackMeeting ended Thu May  1 09:02:40 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)09:02
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fdotBye :)09:03
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sbalukoffHowdy, folks!14:00
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enikanorov_let's start the meeting, Kyle Mestery offered his help in conducting this one14:01
enikanorov_so he is the chair today14:02
enikanorov_#startmeeting neutron lbaas14:02
mesteryenikanorov_: The meeting is typically called just lbaas? or neutron_lbaas?14:02
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openstackMeeting started Thu May  1 14:02:12 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is enikanorov_. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:02
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)"14:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_lbaas'14:02
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mestery#link Agenda14:02
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mesterySo, thanks to all for joining and thanks for the great discussions on the ML!14:02
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mesteryOne thing I was hoping was that today we could try to keep focused on a single conversation at a time.14:02
mesteryI've noticed in the past few weeks it's hard to keep up with everything during this meeting.14:03
mesteryThere is a lot to cover for sure, but trying to focus on one conversation at a time makes it easier. Sound ok?14:03
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blogansounds good14:03
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rm_workwe'll try14:03
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mesteryrm_work: :)14:03
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mesteryOK, so to start off per enikanorov_'s email, lets talk about sbalukoff's google doc a bit more14:04
mesterysbalukoff: I've read through this, thanks for putting this together!14:05
sbalukoffGlad I could help!14:05
mesteryActually, I see a lot more recent comments on this since I read through it a few days back even :)14:05
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mesterysbalukoff enikanorov_: The main focus in this document is the API, correct? Have people had a chance to look at this in detail yet?14:06
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blogani've looked at it and asked some questions about it to stephen on the ML14:06
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sbalukoffYes, my understanding was this was an API design proposal, and we've attached a proposed object diagram to it, too.14:06
samuelbercovicimestery: I have looked at it and sent comments on L7 to ML and will send later today comments on SSL.14:06
bloganstephen did answer them and most of them were minor quibbles14:07
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mesteryOK, great! Are people converging on this being at least a good starting point from the LBaaS API perspective?14:07
jorgemmestery: I sent an email last and think that all proposals should be compared on equal footing.14:08
enikanorov_more particularly, a question to Rackspace folks: do you find 'single call' part of the document suitable for your needs?14:08
sbalukoffI would also like to know at some point (not necessarily during this meeting): What requirements / use cases or other concerns that you have might not be addressed in thie proposal?14:08
mesteryjorgem: Yes, completely agree there.14:08
samuelbercoviciblogan: did not see response on [openstack-dev] [Neutron][LBaaS]L7 conent switching APIs14:08
rm_workyes -- funnily enough, it actually seems remarkably similar to what we proposed :) I think I am ok with most of it, besides a few naming issues and minor attributes14:08
jorgemI'd like to discuss the pros and cons of each proposal. So far I see three.14:08
rm_workthough yes, we should go through all of them14:08
jorgemThere are things I do like about this proposal but I want to make sure we get the good ideas from all of them.14:09
blogansamuelbercovici: it was the day stephen put it on the ML, wasn't in response to that thread14:09
mesteryjorgem: I am fine with that, I think we should ideally try to converge by next week so we can make effective use of the Summit facetime. Agree?14:09
jorgemmestery: agree14:09
enikanorov_i think naming differences and attributes polishing is what could be done on per-feature basis14:09
rm_workenikanorov_: sure, which is why i have no real stated objections14:10
enikanorov_rm_work: good!14:10
rm_workthough I don't speak for my whole team, obviously14:10
mesteryOK, so now hte question is: How should we effectively evaluate all 3 proposals in the coming week?14:10
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jorgemOne of the the important things I do not want to lose sight of is building the API against the features that we have prioritized. Edge cases shouldn't be a show stopper.14:10
mesteryWe need someone to come up with a good comparison of all 3, showing gaps and overlap, etc.14:10
mesteryjorgem: I agree with that sentiment.14:11
rm_workthough sbalukoff I am not seeing SSL Termination support? or am I just blind…14:11
enikanorov_one moment, guys14:11
enikanorov_there are TWO proposals14:11
enikanorov_not three14:11
rm_workenikanorov_: sbalukoff's, yours, ours?14:11
sbalukoffrm_work: It's in there, with SNI support, too.14:11
bloganyeah it is14:11
enikanorov_mine is a part of stephen's14:11
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jorgemenikanorov_: I though you wanted to start from the current API?14:11
german_SSL support is a concern for the VPN folks, too, so there is some overlap...14:11
rm_worksbalukoff: I saw the SNI but not how exactly we'd terminate. i'll look again14:11
enikanorov_jorgem: stephen's proposal can be implemented by evolving existing API14:12
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sbalukoffrm_work: Look at the default_certificate_id attribute of the "listener" object. :)14:12
jorgemenikanorov_: Okay, two proposals then. My apologies.14:12
mesteryjorgem enikanorov_: If this is the case, then we can quickly find gaps between the two proposals and try to close them to satisfy the use cases I think.14:12
german_sbalukoff, since SSL overlaps it should be outside VPN, LBaaS14:13
enikanorov_i see one major gap14:13
rm_worksbalukoff: so… just by specifying that, it terminates?14:13
enikanorov_which is API nesting in jorgem's proposal14:13
jorgemmestery: So to answer your question. I think we should have workflows of single and multiple api calls for each of the use cases we have identified.14:13
enikanorov_vs flat API in sbalukoff's14:13
sbalukoffmestery: Do you want someone to just create a spreadsheet with proposals as the columns, and use cases as the rows?14:13
mesteryjorgem: I agree with that, per the email thread.14:13
tmc3inphillyone conversation por favor14:13
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rm_workenikanorov_: sbalukoff claimed everything could be nested, did he not?14:13
mesterysbalukoff: That would be awesome!14:13
blogani think the main difference is the use of the term load balancer (which obviously can be changed) and rackspace's proposal support multiple vips but only one port on a single "load balancer" instance while stephen's support an IPv4 and IPv6 VIP and multiple ports on the "load balancer" instance which he calls a VIP14:13
enikanorov_rm_work: i mean nesting in url structure, not in the payload14:13
sbalukoffrm_work: I think I did, or effectively did.14:14
mesteryFolks, lets focus on the API comparison now, can we leave the SSL stuff to a bit later?14:14
rm_workenikanorov_: ah, thanks for the clarification14:14
mesteryI know that's important, but we need to focus on one thing or it gets too hard to maintain a semblence of order. :)14:14
enikanorov_yes, i think we need to discuss SSL separately14:14
german_mestery +114:14
rm_workmestery: sorry, will try HARDER. :)14:14
mesteryLets finish the API talk and then move on to SSL next.14:14
enikanorov_blogan: you see it's structurally the same14:14
samuelbercovicimestery +114:14
mesterysbalukoff: So, are you volunteering to produce the API comparision spreadsheet mapping to use cases? CAn you work with jorgem on this?14:15
bloganmestery: i will help out as well14:15
jorgemmestery: Yes I will help14:15
mesteryblogan: Perfect!14:15
german_can we share the spreadhseet so we all can pitch in14:15
mesteryI will assign the three of you an action item for that.14:15
samuelbercovicimestery: i will help out as well14:16
sbalukoffmestery: Sure! I'm sensing an action item?14:16
blogangerman_: of course14:16
mesterygerman_: Absolutely! I think it makes sense to have someone start it off and then share it.14:16
jorgemsbalukoff: Have you had a chance to look at the workflows we presented. I think if you could create something similar it may help to identify pros and cons.14:16
mestery#action sbalukoff jorgem blogan to draft API comparison spreadsheet mapping to use cases.14:16
sbalukoffblogan: Could you (or someone one your team) please produce a glossary of terms for your API proposal? Just so we are all clear on definitions.14:16
jorgemsbalukoff: If you have another idea I am open to that as well.14:16
blogansbalukoff: sure14:16
sbalukoffjorgem: I looked through a couple of them (I think you had 9 at the time)?14:17
blogan#action blogan creates glossary of terms for rackspace's proposal14:17
jorgemcorrect. we will add more14:17
mesterySo the expectation is by next week's IRC meeting (ideally before) we can have this ready and ideally make a decision to move forward then.14:17
sbalukoffI don't know that I can address all use cases, since the use case document is up to 43 so far.14:17
sbalukoffAnd that's just the "user" use cases.14:17
mesteryjorgem: Thanks for hte link, nice work on drafting all of that up!14:17
jorgemsbalukoff: That's fine the main ones that hit on the feautures we have prioritized should be a good place to start.14:17
enikanorov_some of the use cases map to particular set of values for attributes14:18
TrevorVsbalukoff: I've been doing some work with examples according to our API, not sure if you'd like me to share those in this comparison chart as well14:18
enikanorov_like 'support for XXX balancing algorithm'14:18
TrevorVsbalukoff: Specifically with use cases I mean14:18
sbalukoffBy the way-- I want to be clear that my proposal certainly isn't "set in stone". If we discover gaps, I'm hoping to change the proposal to address the gaps.14:18
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enikanorov_i think that we need to have a general consensus on the API14:18
jorgemsbalukoff: understood. Likewise for ours.14:18
enikanorov_and then flush details14:18
sbalukoffTrevorV: It sounds like that might be useful, eh!14:18
enikanorov_like attributes and such14:18
blogansbalukoff: same with rackspace, that was always the intention14:19
enikanorov_otherwise we'll gid in the details without producing a decision14:19
mesteryI think we have a plan on the API front here to move forward, comparing and closing gaps.14:19
jorgemsbalukoff: Let's decide first which use cases to produce workflows so we can make sure we compare the same use cases. What do you think?14:20
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mesteryCan we move on to the SSL discussion now?14:21
mesterySeems like there was some interest in talking about that a bit.14:21
blogani have a question about the object model14:21
sbalukoffjorgem: That sounds fine to me, mostly... though I'm honestly a little uncomfortable potentially leaving some use cases out.14:21
bloganjust a quick question14:21
mesteryblogan: Sure, go ahead please.14:21
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jorgemsbalukoff: I'm okay with doing all or a subset. It's your call.14:21
bloganwhat happens if the API that is decided on requires a major revamp of the object model?14:21
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sbalukoffjorgem: Shall we talk about this offline? (Don't think we need to take up meeting time for that level of specificity, eh.)14:22
enikanorov_how major are you expecting it to be?14:22
jorgemsbalukoff: Yes, I'll send you an email.14:22
sbalukoffCool, thanks!14:22
bloganoh I don't know, its more a theoretical question, I'm just wondering how major revamps work in this type of project14:22
enikanorov_every proposal changes object model in some way14:22
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enikanorov_blogan: so far proposals are focused around the same set of objects14:23
mesteryShould we expect at least minor object model changes here? jorgem sbalukoff enikanorov_??14:23
enikanorov_it's better to do anychanges in the way that existing code (even if changed) still works14:23
vjaywhat are the aspects in which comparision will be done? like backward compatibil14:23
enikanorov_mestery: absolutely14:23
sbalukoffmestery: I think so.14:23
sbalukoffStated another way, I think:  Are there any potential changes that are off the table?14:24
enikanorov_object model changes in several aspects: attributes, relationships and object being added14:24
jorgemmestery: There will definitely be additions since there are new features being requested.14:24
enikanorov_i think both proposals imply that14:24
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bloganwell i'm just afraid that if we try to duct tape the API around an object model that doesn't work well with the API then it will be a maintenance nightmare, thats my real concern14:24
mesterysbalukoff: I am an evolutionary guy, so if we can evolve the current model into something new, it's better, but lets see what we come up with.14:24
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mesteryjorgem: Agreed there.14:24
enikanorov_blogan: obj model is changed with API obviously14:25
mesteryblogan: Lets cross that bridge when we get there and make a call as a team at that point.14:25
bloganmestery: evolution is fine from a good foundation14:25
jorgemI think we should agree on API spec first. Then figure out a transition plan.14:25
enikanorov_blogan: the foundation is good enough, actually14:25
german_jorgem +114:25
mesteryjorgem: +114:25
TrevorVjorgem: +114:25
enikanorov_yes, that would be the right thing to do14:25
sbalukoffjorgem: +114:25
crc32yea like evolution works but some APIs have to go extinct for this to work.14:26
mesteryOK, anything else on the API front now?14:26
samuelbercovicijorgem: +114:26
mesteryI think we have a good plan for the next week to address this.14:26
vjayshould we discussion on what aspects to be considered during comparison?14:26
rm_workmy questions about SSL are specific to sbalukoff's API proposal, so does that count for API discussion or SSL discussion? :)14:26
mesteryAnd we should definitely continue the ML discussions on the API Front once the comparison spreadsheet is done.14:26
vjaysorry discuss14:26
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bloganno im good14:26
mesteryrm_work: Lets answer vjay's question then go to SSL :)14:27
jorgemvjay: I think that is a good idea. What metrics to compare on?14:27
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jorgembefore we go into SSL14:27
sbalukoffvjay: I think our plan was to compare / contrast workflows for specific use cases, and present this in a spreadsheet.14:27
mesteryvjay: I think we're covering all use cases and mapping APIs to the use cases, right jorgem sbalukoff?14:27
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sbalukoffmestery: Yes.14:27
mesteryvjay: Does that answer your question?14:28
samuelbercoviciI think that probably the first 8 use cases should be fine to see how workflows would differ14:28
sbalukoffvjay: So, if yo have a specific use case that's not yet addressed in the document, get it in there ASAP!14:28
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vjaythats fine14:28
mesteryOK, lets move on to SSL.14:28
mesteryrm_work: The floor is yours. :)14:28
rm_workyes, many of those use cases are really "duplicate" with regard to actual workflow, since they just specify like "do what we just did, but with a different protocol", etvc14:28
rm_workmestery: heh, well I don't have MUCH, just trying to understand how SSL Term works in sbalukoff's proposal14:29
rm_worksbalukoff: I think I may get it now -- so to do SSL Term, you use HTTPS protocol, and HTTPS passthrough would use TCP?14:29
rm_workI was just expecting HTTPS to be "passthrough" and there to be a specific option to enable SSL Term, since that is what I am used to seeing14:29
sbalukoffrm_work: Yes. Though I didn't specifically address the case of doing session tracking using SSL session_id in this-- that could be done with additions to the Layer-7 stuff, or an explicit flag that states whether HTTPS connections should be terminated on the load balancer.14:30
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sbalukoffrm_work: That specific option could be added.14:31
rm_workyeah, ok14:31
rm_workI might worry it would be confusing when not explicit :)14:31
sbalukoffOne of the goals of my API was to try to keep the number of object and number of attributes per object minimal.14:31
samuelbercoviciSSL session_id is usualy a persistency property for HTTPS14:31
sbalukoffSince there's a maintenance cost going forward for having them.14:31
blogansbalukoff: that is a good goal to have14:32
sbalukoffsamuelbercovici: Yep.14:32
rm_workthat's all I had :) like I said, just wanted to clear that up14:32
sbalukoffblogan: There are other implications like that subtly hidden in my API proposal.14:32
samuelbercoviciso we could have had HTTPS for non teminated protocols and TLS for terminated ones14:32
rm_worksamuelbercovici: so that the protocol more clearly implies what's happening with regard to termination?14:33
sbalukoffsamuelbercovici: Yep! It's just a matter of specifing the exact parameter, and what the load balancer behavior should be for each parameter.14:33
samuelbercovicithis is a good things as there are capabilities available for TLS which should not be available for HTTPS14:33
rm_workI would be for that, though I worry about the redundancy of having another protocol just to explicitly state "this is HTTPS Passthrough" when it's exactly the same functionally as TCP :(14:33
samuelbercovicirm_work: this is not exactly the case as for exmaple SSL session id is only relevant for HTTPS and not TCP14:34
rm_workah, true14:34
sbalukoffrm_work: Would it make sense to list the protocols we want to support and how they should be treated on the load balancer?14:34
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samuelbercoviciactualy TLS has all the capabilitiy of HTTP14:35
samuelbercovicifrom a configuration perspective14:35
crc32SSL session id is apart of the TLS handshake so it could be used on TCP as well right?14:35
rm_worksbalukoff: maybe? normally I would say that's outside the realm of an API spec, but in this case they have specific implications about API functionality14:35
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sbalukoffrm_work: The devil is always in the details. :)14:35
samuelbercovicicrc32: but if it is a pure TCP protocol it should not be avialble for selection14:35
tmc3inphillyfrom an end-user of the api having a specific call out for termination would be best14:36
tmc3inphillyless abiguity14:36
samuelbercovicii agree14:36
rm_workWell, if the protocols were more clear in specifying that they were controlling SSLTerm/Passthrough, it would be fine I think14:36
sbalukoffWell, there's also the question:  Is there a use case we're considering that uses TLS that *is not* just HTTPS?14:36
tmc3inphillythink of least common denominator (customers)14:36
rm_workas it is, it was ambiguous enough to cause me confusion14:36
sbalukoffie. some other protocol support that's also using transport layer security?14:36
sbalukoffIf so, can we get that added to the use cases?14:36
rm_workHTTP / HTTPS (Terminated) / HTTPS (Passthrough) / TCP14:37
samuelbercovicisbalukoff: obviously HTTPS on a non default 443 port does not meet your case, right?14:37
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samuelbercovicisbalukoff: in your proposal there is a difference between SNI and a siongle certificate, why is this?14:38
rm_workbut anyway, that is pretty much my only gripe currently with this proposal (other than I'd rather have Loadbalancer as the root object instead of VIP, though I see that you're trying to use an LB object for something specific at a higher level...)14:39
sbalukoffsamuelbercovici: Actually HTTPS on a non-standard port is still HTTPS, in my opinion.14:39
crc32sbalukoff: I can't think of one but tls does appear specified outside of the protocol. So do we lock TLS into HTTP(ssl term) and HTTPS(passthrough with SSLID persistence) only and regret it later on?14:39
sbalukoffCovered under the same use case.14:39
rm_worksbalukoff +114:39
samuelbercovicibalukoff: yes i agree14:39
TrevorVsbalukoff: there are a great many SSL termination use-cases in the document.  Some of which I have addressed with the Rackspace proposal already, we can see those when we compare the APIs if you like14:39
rm_worksamuelbercovici: and I think it is because there should be a default cert for fallback if no SNI matches?14:39
sbalukoffcrc32: Until someone has a use case we want to address, yes. In this case, I don't like leaving things too open-ended or you end up trying to solve problems that are never actually problems.14:40
rm_workoh wait, i might be reading the wrong section14:40
sbalukoffSo on the SNI stuff:14:40
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samuelbercovicirm_work: I think that might be addressed by ordering the list14:40
crc32fair enough. I just wonder if any one wants LDAPS to session persisted.14:40
sbalukoffYes, the default cert id attribute of the listener covers cases of HTTP/1.0 connections, or where SNI is not being used.14:40
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sbalukoffIt turns out, even with SNI, you still need to specify the default cert, in case the web client asks for a hostname that's not explicitly configured.14:41
rm_worksamuelbercovici: yeah, i would assume the default cert id would be used if there are no SNI rules specified, as opposed to requiring an SNI rule on every SSL LB, and using * as a match14:41
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sbalukoffIf you're just going to be using one certificate for a given HTTPS site, then you don't have to worry about SNI policies at all.14:42
sbalukoffJust specify the default_certificate_id.14:42
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sbalukoffBut if you want to use more than one certificate for a listener (ie. this is an IP + single port combination), then the only way to do this is with SNI.14:43
samuelbercovicidefault certificate must be provided in case SNI is not supported14:43
sbalukoffsamuelbercovici: Correct.14:43
samuelbercovicibut it can be the 1st in the list14:43
sbalukoffThough, with very few exceptions, all modern browsers can do SNI.14:43
samuelbercoviciif no SNI, than only one certificate14:43
sbalukoffThat works too...14:44
samuelbercoviciso why are there two diferent entries?14:44
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rm_worksamuelbercovici: but then you require the user to set up "SNI Cert" with some match, even if they don't know what SNI *is*? :P14:44
sbalukoffI was trying to do the same kind of model that works for default pool vs. pool that gets selected for L7 policy.14:44
sbalukoffEr... pool that gets selected by an L7 policy.14:44
sbalukoffrm_work: If the user wants to use more than one certificate per HTTPS listener, they need to understand they're using SNI.14:45
sbalukoffAs it is, though...14:45
rm_workbut if they don't want more than one....14:45
samuelbercovicithe other part is that I prefer to specify trusted certificates using the same scemantics on a differetn list14:45
rm_workthey shouldn't have to set up SNI, which they would if we removed the "default cert" concept14:45
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sbalukoffrm_work: Aah! Yes, you're right.14:46
samuelbercovicithis might be more easier than to ustilize if certificates are actualy stores in Barbican14:46
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sbalukoffYeah, I have no problem splitting trusted_certificates away as its own object instead of using the ca_chain field of the tls_certificates objects.14:46
sbalukoffThe way I suggested uses fewer objects but is certainly more confusing.14:47
tmc3inphillyhow would that work for an off-the-shelf LB on the backend?14:47
sbalukofftmc3inphilly: Sorry, I'm not sure who you're asking, and that "that" is in your question.14:47
sbalukoffand what "that" is.14:47
sbalukoffSheesh. Sorry, guys, it's early.14:48
tmc3inphillysorry the management of certs through Barbican14:48
samuelbercoviciI am also missing the capability to controll allowed protocols (ex: TLS1, TLS.1.2) and allowed cypher suites both for temination an backencryption14:48
rm_workI assume it would be "transparently"14:48
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rm_worksamuelbercovici: I am not sure allowing control of cipher suites is a great idea in general <_<14:48
tmc3inphillyyou should be able to specify protocols (force TLS 1.2)14:49
rm_workI guess if it is an absolute requirement for some...14:49
sbalukofftmc3inphilly: Oh! Well...  I need to look into how to use barbican first of all. But presumably it'd would be treated simply as an SSL certificate store. So you could potentially still add and removed certificates using LBaaS API, they just won't be stored by us.14:49
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tmc3inphillysbalukoff gotcha14:49
samuelbercovicisbalukoff: yes, this is how it shoould be treated14:49
rm_worksbalukoff: yeah, that's what I am thinking. it's essentially transparent. we take in the cert -> throw it in barbican -> store the barbican ID14:49
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sbalukoffsamuelbercovici: Yes, I didn't address SSL ciper and protocol support. I think I would just make these additional attributes of the listener.14:50
mesteryrm_work: +1 to that14:50
crc32sbalukoff I was advocating useing barbican to store the keys only (Since encrypting the keys was the end goal) and not for storing the X509s as well.14:50
samuelbercovicisbalukoff: ok. the one I have in addition14:50
sbalukoffsamuelbercovici: I don't see a real need to control ciphers and protocol information per certificate. (I'm not even sure that's possible.)14:50
tmc3inphillyhow about cipher suite profile?14:51
rm_workthere is some question about HOW we store it in barbican (on the tenant? on our own service account? if it's on the tenant, what happens if they mess with it outside of our API?) but that discussion can happen later14:51
samuelbercovicisbalukoff: you are right14:51
sbalukoffcrc32: It could be done that way, too, yes.14:51
tmc3inphillypre-defined cipher suite profiles14:51
enikanorov_folks, i suggest we switch to the summit agenda14:51
sbalukoffrm_work: Yes, it would be on the tenant, and presumably that would break things for us if they do mess with it outside our API.14:51
crc32sbalukoff: No I think the attempt was to store the CIPHER suit at the loadbalancer layer.14:51
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enikanorov_we have 10 minutes left14:51
mestery10 minutes left, yes. :)14:52
mesteryActually now 814:52
samuelbercovicisbalukoff: it should be on the tenant14:52
german_and we can't run over :-)14:52
sbalukoffOk, further SSL questions on the mailing list!14:52
mesterysbalukoff: +1!14:52
mesteryOK, so, Summit Agenda.14:52
mesteryLBaaS has 2 40 minute slots, there is a lot to cover and we want to make good use of those slots.14:53
enikanorov_i think there should be 2 general discussions14:53
samuelbercoviciconcluding the API decision would be top14:53
enikanorov_which are user requirements and operator rquirements14:53
mesteryWe may want to leave some time in one session for the key/certificate discussion with Barbican as well, just a thought. Maybe 15-20 minutes of one of those.14:53
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samuelbercovicito me the goal form the summit is to have action items, tasks and prople allocated so work could start14:54
enikanorov_i also think that's not necessary to devide those two in 1:1 ratio14:54
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sbalukoffsamuelbercovici: +114:54
samuelbercovicimestery: I think we can discuss 1st with VPNaaS and Barbican on ML14:54
mesteryYes, we should be prepared to discuss open items which have not closed prior to the summit, and come out of it with a plan to move forward.14:54
enikanorov_also, there's an idea to hold additional face to face discussion out of design tracks. i'll probably will have a room to host this14:54
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mesterysamuelbercovici: Yes, in fact we discussed in the advanced services meeting yesterday.14:54
enikanorov_what do you think on this?14:54
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jorgemOnce an API proposal is selected (to start from). We need to figure out a transition plan in terms of implementation. Should that be a part of the general meetings or held in more of the design sessions?14:55
mesteryenikanorov_: That's good, we need to make sure we send invites on ML so people know where it is, times, etc.14:55
enikanorov_mestery: sure!14:55
mesteryjorgem: I think we should proceed on ML for that one and hope to close before the summit.14:55
samuelbercovicienikanorov_: gr814:55
jorgemmestery: Close on API, transition plan or both?14:56
rm_workOne thing that we will need to do is discuss either the reworking of the current haproxy driver, or the creation of a new opensource driver for the HA / Scalability / Operator Requirements concerns. We've left this on the backburner because of the (correct) focus on the API, but it might at least be worth mentioning. I suppose we could probably un-conference that discussion though.14:56
samuelbercovicimestery: if from some reason this is not done by th summit. than it must be done in the summit in whatever manner otherwise we can progress anywhere14:56
enikanorov_rm_work: that's interesting14:56
sbalukoffrm_work: My team is already engaged in the latter, though we've not made much progress as I've been rather distracted with API discussion lately. :)14:56
enikanorov_rm_work: can you send me an email with your thoughts on this?14:57
rm_worksbalukoff: yeah, I assume this will be a group effort14:57
samuelbercovicirm_work: +114:57
rm_workenikanorov_: I'll try to work something up today. Just you, or just throw it up on the ML?14:57
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mesteryjorgem: API, sorry. :)_14:57
crc32ML would be fine rm_work.14:57
enikanorov_yeah, ML is even better14:57
german_ML, please14:57
mesterysamuelbercovici: Agreed14:57
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mesteryOK, we're about out of time.14:58
mesteryLets wrap this one up now.14:58
enikanorov_ok, so we'll have another meeting before the summit14:58
mesteryWe have some good action items!14:58
samuelbercovicigr8 stuff!!!14:59
jorgemAlright, thanks everyone!14:59
rm_workah I suppose...14:59
rm_work#action rm_work Start driver discussion on ML14:59
mesteryThanks everyone, we'll see you all in-channel or on the ML!14:59
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vjaythanks, bye14:59
enikanorov_see you, bye14:59
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mesteryenikanorov_: Did you do #endmeeting?15:01
enikanorov_not yet15:01
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openstackMeeting ended Thu May  1 15:01:23 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:01
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hyakuheinkinder: This is the right time, right :) ?18:03
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nkinderhyakuhei: yep!18:03
hyakuhei#startmeeting OpenStack Security Group18:03
openstackMeeting started Thu May  1 18:03:19 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hyakuhei. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:03
nkinder...or else we're both wrong :)18:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group'18:03
bdpaynehey guys18:03
paulmoPaul Montgomery here18:03
bdpaynesorry, I'm a touch late18:03
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hyakuheiOk lets spin-up while we wait for Mr Payne :)18:03
hyakuheioh hey :D18:03
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hyakuheiall yours18:03
nkinderhey paulmo18:03
eloEric here18:03
bdpayneso hi everyone18:03
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bdpaynelet's jump right into the agenda18:04
bdpayne#topic Agenda18:04
bdpayneI'd like to discuss the summit18:04
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bdpayneAnd our IRC meeting schedule around the summit18:04
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bdpaynewhat else would people like to discuss?18:04
nkinderWe should get an update on the outstanding OSSNs18:05
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shohel02some update on threat work18:05
bdpayneok, sounds good18:05
bdpayne#topic IRC Meeting Schedule18:05
bdpayneSo a few notes on the IRC meeting schedule18:05
bdpayneI'd like to propose that we make this the last IRC meeting prior to the summit18:06
bdpaynewe can skip the next 2 weeks18:06
hyakuheiI'm happy with that.18:06
bdpayneand then pick up again post summit18:06
bdpaynethat work with everyone?18:06
nkinderSounds good18:06
hyakuheiHopefully we can move discussions onto the mailing list as required.18:06
bdpaynein the past, we've had a pretty high drop off due to travel and such18:06
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bdpayneyeah, certainly use the mailing list if you have something to discuss18:06
bdpayneno need to wait 2 weeks :-)18:06
nkinderI think everyone is in Summit prep mode as it is...18:06
nkinderthen summit hangover afterwards :)18:07
* paulmo is in demo creation mode.18:07
bdpaynegreat, I'll update the meeting wiki page shortly with that schedule18:07
bdpayne#topic Summit Plans18:07
bdpayneSo as you guys know, there's lots of security stuff happening at the summit18:07
bdpaynewe have a security track on Monday18:07
malini1nkinder: will send you end of day my OSSN draft. thank you for the excellent template and instructions to use the git repository18:07
bdpaynethere's a security session at the dev summit on Tuesday afternoon18:07
bdpayneI'd like to suggest we do an OSSG meetup over a meal18:08
bdpayneperhaps lunch on Tuesday?18:08
nkinderyeah, I'm looking forward to the tuesday session18:08
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malini1+1 to OSSG lunch at summit18:08
nkinderbdpayne: I know that hyakuhei is trying to get a OSSG/VMT lunch together too18:08
hyakuheibdpayne: Maybe Thursday? I'm trying to line up a OSSN authors/VMT lunch for Tuesday.18:09
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bdpayneahh, I wasn't sure if you had decided on Tues or Thurs for that18:09
bdpayneis that on Tues for sure?18:09
hyakuheiNot for sure but that's the day being batted around atm18:10
hyakuheiIf times are tight I don't mind combining things18:10
bdpayneso OSSG lunch on thursday then?18:10
nkinderthat's fine with me18:10
hyakuheiThat would be my preference at the moment yeah18:10
bdpayneany objections to that date?18:10
malini1fine with me18:10
shohel02ok with date18:10
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bdpaynesounds good, I'll work with hyakihei to put that together18:11
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bdpaynearg, typing not good today18:11
bdpayneany other discussion about the summit?18:11
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bdpayneok, let's push ahead18:12
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nkinderbdpayne: we should chat about the monday session, but we can do that offline18:12
bdpayne#topic OSSN18:12
bdpaynenkinder yeah, I'll ping you today18:12
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bdpayneSo, where are we at with OSSNs?18:12
nkindersame 2 outstanding as last week18:12
nkindermalini1 just mentioned she'll hav her draft ready for review end of day today18:13
hyakuheiSigh - I still have one outstanding.18:13
malini1OSSN -- Malini working on her one little OSSN .. should send out draft later today18:13
hyakuheiI'll make it the first thing I do tomorrow18:13
nkinderhyakuhei: thanks!18:13
bdpayneok, thanks guys18:13
bdpaynewould be great to get those published before the summit18:13
bdpayneany other OSSN news?18:14
nkinderusing pandoc for RST->XML is still on my list18:14
bdpayneoh cool18:14
nkinderI've had some back and forth to work out the gat/publishing job details with annegentle too18:14
bdpayneI'd be interested in knowing how that works out18:14
bdpaynecould be useful for the book effort18:14
shohel02pandoc seems some issue with format changing18:14
nkinderIt's unlikely that I'll have it really working until after the summit18:15
bdpayneyeah, that's fine18:15
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bdpayneif it'd be helpful, perhaps we could find a time to hack on it together at the summit18:15
bdpayne#topic Threat Analysis18:16
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nkinderbdpayne: That would be good18:16
bdpayneshohel02 any updates?18:16
shohel02most of the doc type documents are converted now18:16
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shohel02now it good time to start review18:17
bdpayneso what is the process for that?18:17
shohel02anyone wants to volunteer18:17
hyakuheishohel02: I would very much like to help with that, David Graves should be available too18:17
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bdpaynedo we have some keystone core that can participate in that?18:17
bknudsonyes, what do you need?18:18
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shohel02currently doc contains the analysis report of each component wise18:18
bdpayneI think it would be good to have someone with deep knowledge of keystone to help with the review of the threat analysis work18:18
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hyakuheiI think having core members on the reviews is pretty pivotal18:18
bknudsonshohel02: ok, will look through this18:18
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hyakuheiDevananda is available to do a Ironic review when we're ready shohel0218:19
bknudsonis this in gerrit, too?18:19
nkinderbknudson: thanks!18:19
shohel02thats something to think18:19
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shohel02how to take it there18:19
bknudsonshohel02: you want comments just in emails or something?18:19
shohel02i think if we have the gerrit now, we can start using that18:19
bdpayneif not... could be doing through a github PR18:20
malini1+1 gerrit -- email gets hairy to track18:20
shohel02can we start using Security guide books gerrit system18:20
bdpaynejust make an "approved" branch18:20
bdpayneand setup PRs to take each part of the review into that branch18:20
bdpayneand then people can comment on the PR18:20
shohel02ok, i will make a branch18:20
malini1PR ?18:20
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bdpayneshohel02 are you going to be at the summit?18:21
bdpaynePR == pull request18:21
shohel02by the branch in Security guide section18:21
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bdpayneshohel02, I'd like to chat about how we can best integrate this stuff with the book18:21
bdpayneprobably easier to chat face to face18:21
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bdpayneok, anything else on threat analysis?18:22
nkindermaybe we should have a discussion around all of the book integration topics (thread modeling, OSSNs, etc.)18:22
shohel02christan is also working on nova one18:22
nkinderperhaps we can get some of Anne's time too18:22
hyakuheiAre there others than those two integration topics?18:22
nkinderThose are the main 2 right now18:23
shohel02all from my side18:23
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bdpayneyeah, I'd be up for have a book integration discussion18:23
bdpaynesounds good18:23
bdpayne#topic Open Discussion18:23
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malini1please try and attend: limited conductor API : == this is to secure from compute node side18:23
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bdpayneSo a quick plug / reminder that nkinder and I will be speaking at this evening in Redwood City18:23
nkindershould be a nice summit warmup :)18:24
bdpayneinterestingly, my talk this evening has the same title as Rob's talk at the summit18:24
nkinderIt's supposed to be recorded too, so we can share with others after it's published18:24
bdpaynehyakuhei I can sell my slides... for a price ;-)18:25
bdpayneanything else to discuss?18:25
hyakuheibdpayne: Put them on eBay, I'll let the free market work it out18:25
nkinderhyakuhei: you asked about Kite last week18:25
nkinderhyakuhei: did you see my write-up I sent out to the list?18:25
hyakuheinkinder: wrote an excellent blog article a few days back18:25
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hyakuheiThere's only one bug in it ;)18:25
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nkinderthere's always at least one...18:25
hyakuheiYeah nkinder I thought it was excellent18:26
nkindergreat.  Hopefully it makes the whole approach understandable for folks18:26
bdpayneI haven't had a chance to check it out yet18:26
bdpaynebut it is on my reading list :-)18:26
hyakuheiIt didn't go into a lot of depth on the nature of the secrets (what the key material _is_ ) but was great at showing the overall direction/architecture18:26
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bdpayneok then, I think that's all for today... thanks everyone, and I'll see you at the summit!18:27
nkinderhyakuhei: quick description - the long-term is really a password (though it could be some long random stuff)18:27
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hyakuheiThanks bdpayne18:27
nkinderpaulmo: I wanted to chat about security info for solum, but we can chat on -dev.18:28
bdpaynesince hyakuhei started the meeting, I'll let him close it out18:28
nkinderthanks everyone!18:28
hyakuheiTy everyone18:28
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"18:28
openstackMeeting ended Thu May  1 18:28:17 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:28
openstackMinutes (text):
malini1nkinder -- to make a simple password stonger, often times people use HMAC18:28
hyakuhei#woo no actions - apart from mine that I forgot to record !18:28
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bdpayneyeah, it didn't let me record topics aparently either18:28
bdpayneoh well18:29
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toranduhm. either i got the time wrong or the meeting is cancelled...22:06
toranduno qa meeting?22:06
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