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| Daisy_ | Hello, who are there for I18n meeting? | 07:59 |
|---|---|---|
| jpich | Hey o/ | 07:59 |
| ujuc_phone | Hi~ | 07:59 |
| epico | hi | 07:59 |
| jpich | It's a public holiday in most of Europe today so there might not be many people | 08:00 |
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| Daisy_ | It's a public holiday for Chinese people too. :) | 08:00 |
| Daisy_ | Thank you for working in your holidays, jpich and epico. | 08:00 |
| jpich | Ah, it's not a holiday for me :) | 08:00 |
| Daisy_ | Let's start. | 08:00 |
| epico | welcome | 08:00 |
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| Daisy_ | #startmeeting OpenStack I18n | 08:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 1 08:01:43 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Daisy_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n)" | 08:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_i18n' | 08:01 |
| Daisy_ | Good morning and good afternoon, everyone. | 08:01 |
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| epico | good afternoon | 08:02 |
| ujuc_phone | Hi :) | 08:02 |
| ygbo | Hi, good morning everyone :-) | 08:02 |
| Daisy_ | We will have I18n meeting now. | 08:02 |
| Daisy_ | Hi, ygbo | 08:02 |
| Daisy_ | Welcome to join. | 08:02 |
| Daisy_ | #topic Whether to including the final : with strings | 08:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Whether to including the final : with strings (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n)" | 08:03 | |
| Daisy_ | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-i18n/2014-April/000573.html | 08:03 |
| Daisy_ | I guess, all of you have understood the problem. | 08:03 |
| Daisy_ | In my mind, the question can be changed to "whether to keep punctuation in translatable strings". | 08:04 |
| Daisy_ | The punctuation could include: colon, comma, full stop mark, and space. | 08:04 |
| Daisy_ | I don't know if I'm right. Let me know your thoughts. | 08:04 |
| jpich | If including the punctuation is necessary for a team to produce high quality translations, I think we should keep it. Otherwise the translations just look wrong in some languages | 08:05 |
| DeeJay1 | Trailing/leading spaces in English strings IMHO have to go, the rest can stay - I came to the conclusions that else it could pose problems with right to left languages | 08:05 |
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| jpich | Articles like http://blog.transifex.com/post/49857043763/painless-software-localization (point 6) recommend keeping it, in particular because of French | 08:05 |
| Daisy_ | I agree, jpich, to keep them. My point is to include punctuation. In Chinese, punctuation should also be translated. In Chinese, we have different characters for English colon and Chinese colon. | 08:06 |
| Daisy_ | I think, the question is space. | 08:06 |
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| ygbo | DeeJay1 is right, inside strings, translators will be able to handle them, but trailing ones when concanated will not be properly handled in all languages. | 08:06 |
| jpich | I agree with DeeJay1 re:spaces :) | 08:06 |
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| Daisy_ | Is space important ? Is it important to add spaces at the end of a string? | 08:07 |
| jpich | I don't think so. | 08:07 |
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| ygbo | Daisy_: "in english: we say this", "en français : on dit ça" <- different spacing | 08:07 |
| DeeJay1 | I thinks it's just bad design, if spaces have to be used for a visual indent | 08:08 |
| Daisy_ | Space is also a punctuation. It can separate words, right? | 08:08 |
| jpich | ygbo: I think we're talking about strings like "Image details" vs "Image details " | 08:08 |
| Daisy_ | Right. | 08:08 |
| ygbo | Daisy_: right | 08:08 |
| DeeJay1 | yes, but trailing spaces are only in cases like "My string " + "other string" - which is bad code | 08:08 |
| Daisy_ | If codes like "Image details " + varaibleS | 08:08 |
| ygbo | jpich: rigth too :-) | 08:09 |
| DeeJay1 | this should be "Image details %(variable)s" % variable | 08:09 |
| Daisy_ | If a code like "Image details "+<a variable>, I think, space is necessary. | 08:09 |
| Daisy_ | All right, DeeJay1 | 08:09 |
| ygbo | So this is why the variable should be "in" the string | 08:10 |
| DeeJay1 | yup, but in such cases the translator doesn't even know that something is coming after the string | 08:10 |
| Daisy_ | We are not able to think out a scenario that space is necessary, right? Think carefully. | 08:10 |
| * epico also thinks it is bad code. | 08:10 | |
| ygbo | because if the variable is "in" the string, the translator can move it around, words are not at the same place in all languages, and concatenation leeds to words at the wrong place in some languages. | 08:11 |
| Daisy_ | I think there are bast practices for coding, and we should document them. | 08:11 |
| epico | the code like "My string " + "other string" usually is avoid in gettext. | 08:12 |
| jpich | Agreed, concatenation is bad and we need to start fixing this in Horizon. Dough Fish and ygbo raised a few points about this on the mailing list, in answer to today's meeting agenda | 08:12 |
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| Daisy_ | ygbo: what's your point? Keep space or not? | 08:12 |
| Daisy_ | ygbo, I got your point. | 08:12 |
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| ygbo | Daisy_: we should not concatenate strings and use variables instead, and we would not need trailing spaces anymore. | 08:13 |
| ygbo | Daisy_: translators might need to move variables around, while they can not change the order of concatenation. | 08:14 |
| Daisy_ | let me summarize | 08:14 |
| Daisy_ | the punctuation is necessary for a team to produce high quality translations, we should keep it, except spaces. | 08:14 |
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| Daisy_ | Developers should avoid to concatenate strings and use variables instead, in order to avoid a string ending with spaces. | 08:15 |
| Daisy_ | correct? | 08:15 |
| DeeJay1 | +1 | 08:15 |
| rajeshr | +1 | 08:15 |
| ygbo | +1 | 08:16 |
| jpich | Sounds good to me. | 08:16 |
| fdot | +1 | 08:16 |
| jpich | Er, +1 | 08:16 |
| jpich | :) | 08:16 |
| DeeJay1 | :) | 08:16 |
| ujuc_phone | +1 | 08:16 |
| epico | +1 | 08:16 |
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| rajeshr | Daisy_, Since there is a character Visarga (ः) in Hindi similar to colon, so to avoid the problem translator sometime use long dash instead of the colon. If we need want to use colon, we should put one space before the colon. | 08:17 |
| Daisy_ | Thanks. So I will put it as a comments to https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1296075 and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/84342/. | 08:17 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1296075 in horizon "Needles duplication in strings" [Low,In progress] | 08:17 |
| jpich | Thanks, Daisy_ | 08:17 |
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| rajeshr | Daisy_, Ref: http://svn.fedorahosted.org/svn/fuel/language/hi/style_guide/ | 08:17 |
| Daisy_ | any comments to rajeshr 's point ? | 08:18 |
| DeeJay1 | rajeshr: wow, nice | 08:18 |
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| DeeJay1 | Daisy_: nope, it boils down to "include colons" in original strings | 08:19 |
| * DeeJay1 is sorry for all the confusion this topic caused because of him | 08:19 | |
| Daisy_ | rajeshr: you hope developers to use "details :" other than "details:" | 08:19 |
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| jpich | DeeJay1: Thanks to you we now have a clear understanding of the problem and a solution everybody agrees on :) | 08:20 |
| ygbo | Daisy_: we should not use "details:" but "details: %(topic)s" | 08:20 |
| rajeshr | Daisy_, no, details: is fine, actually the above comment is for Hindi that if anybody want to use colon in Hindi better use the way suggested as it is simmilar to one char in Hindi | 08:21 |
| rajeshr | in English Source string should be as it is | 08:21 |
| Daisy_ | ok. | 08:21 |
| Daisy_ | so we are OK for the first topic now ? | 08:21 |
| Daisy_ | let's move to next topic. | 08:22 |
| ujuc_phone | Ok | 08:23 |
| Daisy_ | #topic whether to add context-maker for better translations | 08:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "whether to add context-maker for better translations (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n)" | 08:23 | |
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| Daisy_ | I think this one is harder. :) | 08:23 |
| ygbo | Yep :-) | 08:23 |
| fdot | yep :) | 08:23 |
| Daisy_ | ygbo: would you like to say something about it ? | 08:24 |
| ygbo | the issue is that "we do not necessarely need contextual markers in a string like this one" <- | 08:24 |
| ygbo | "here we need some" <- (too short) | 08:24 |
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| ygbo | some strings just have a single word , an example is "May" <- is it the month or the verbe granting permission? | 08:25 |
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| jpich | I think there are also two aspects to the question: whether to do it for future strings (I think yes, and that this is the easy question), and what to do with existing strings as this may force retranslating them (though hopefully the translation memory would help?) | 08:25 |
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| ygbo | this is where fdot can say something about it | 08:26 |
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| fdot | I am agree on the first part for adding context in new string. | 08:26 |
| fdot | But for the second part, i think we should not change anything | 08:27 |
| Daisy_ | amotoki had introduced context-maker in Havana release, and it caused the translators have to retranslate them. | 08:27 |
| fdot | let's leave the strings already translated | 08:27 |
| Daisy_ | translation memory can help. | 08:27 |
| fdot | yes but translating again and again is not a good idea | 08:28 |
| jpich | fdot, what if the some languages have wrong/awkward translations because of this? Maybe we can fix only the ones we know are a problem? (When translators report them?) | 08:28 |
| fdot | for communities they will just see the same strings to translate again | 08:28 |
| Daisy_ | If users report bugs/issues to complain about the translation quality, and we have to separate 1 string into two strings in the original language, we have to add context, even we have to re-translate them. | 08:28 |
| ygbo | We should use contextual markers on new strings, and on "string change", but we can't use them on all the existing ones because as fdot mentionned it, the whole work done by translators would be lost and have to be redone. | 08:28 |
| fdot | jpich agree but | 08:28 |
| Daisy_ | jpich: agree. | 08:29 |
| fdot | it depends of languages ;) | 08:29 |
| DeeJay1 | IMHO every introduction of a contextual marker to an existing string should be followed by fixing (copying the existing strings) the po files by that developer and an email to i18n list | 08:29 |
| jpich | I don't think we can add a contextual marker just for one language though :) | 08:29 |
| fdot | in french we can have a strange for a word but the translation could be nice for the others language ;) | 08:29 |
| Daisy_ | amotoki reported the bug because Japanese had the issue. | 08:29 |
| ygbo | jpich: indeed, contextual markers have to be language agnostic, they have to put a context on where the words or part of sentence is used. | 08:30 |
| jpich | It seems ok to me to report a bug + fix it in the code if a language is broken because of the lack of contextual marker | 08:31 |
| Daisy_ | so I think, if there is issues in any languages, we should fix it. | 08:31 |
| ygbo | s/the words or/the words are/ | 08:31 |
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| jpich | DeeJay1: The po files are updated automatically by Jenkins, I don't think the devs can do that manually | 08:31 |
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| Daisy_ | any thoughts about adding context to new strings? any rules? | 08:32 |
| rajeshr | I am confused, i think we should use msgctxt irrespective of language | 08:32 |
| epico | maybe just use msgctxt when it has problems for some languages? | 08:32 |
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| ygbo | epico: the problem is we can not forward guess which language will be impacted, imho, new strings should have msgctxt. | 08:33 |
| jpich | I think that's it yes. Context markers for new strings, only add to existing strings if a language team reports a problem | 08:33 |
| rajeshr | I don't think so, the language is so diverse and leaving it for translator to decide will be bad in long run | 08:33 |
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| jpich | By the way, this will require some documentation for developer education (probably from ygbo, you seem familiar with it?), so we can learn when to use them and how to make them useful | 08:34 |
| ygbo | jpich: also add if a string changes. | 08:34 |
| rajeshr | epico, so better use context marker whenever we think of any confusion | 08:34 |
| epico | I think msgctxt is needed when the translatable string appears more than once... | 08:34 |
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| ygbo | jpich: sure :-) | 08:34 |
| ygbo | epico: exactly :-) | 08:35 |
| jpich | ygbo: Thanks! :) | 08:35 |
| epico | if the string only happens in one place, we don't bother to add the context marker. | 08:35 |
| epico | ygbo, :) | 08:35 |
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| epico | in other OSS project, msgctxt is used when needed, I think. | 08:36 |
| rajeshr | epico, that is okay, but if any confusion developer see they can put a localization note like thing | 08:36 |
| ygbo | epico: well, if it's a new string, we better still add one, because no one knows if we will have the same string somewhere else in the future. however, we don't need it for long sentences where the context is aparent in the sentence itsself. | 08:36 |
| epico | rajeshr, yeah :) | 08:37 |
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| Daisy_ | so let me summarize again. | 08:38 |
| Daisy_ | Context markers for new strings, only add to existing strings if a language team reports a problem | 08:38 |
| ygbo | If the developper knows a word can have different meanings (example "may"), there the context is necessary. | 08:38 |
| jpich | Or if you change an existing string, I think ygbo would like to add? | 08:38 |
| ygbo | jpich: +1 :-) | 08:39 |
| Daisy_ | ygbo to add some documentation for developer education. | 08:39 |
| epico | ygbo, I think maybe we can get the times of strings used in the pot file. | 08:39 |
| Daisy_ | the exact string only appear once in pot file. | 08:39 |
| epico | Daisy_, yes | 08:40 |
| Daisy_ | exact same string only appear once | 08:40 |
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| epico | but the places of things is listed in the comment, feel correct me if I am wrong about it. | 08:40 |
| jpich | What's the goal of the once-off string? I'm not sure this is very visible to developers by default | 08:40 |
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| epico | s/things/strings/ | 08:40 |
| Daisy_ | with different context, it will appear differently | 08:40 |
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| epico | we can get the times from the comments in po file. | 08:41 |
| epico | #: tables/actions.py:381 | 08:41 |
| epico | #: templates/horizon/common/_data_table_table_actions.html:13 | 08:41 |
| epico | #: templates/horizon/common/_workflow_step_update_members.html:11 | 08:41 |
| epico | #: templates/horizon/common/_workflow_step_update_members.html:17 | 08:41 |
| epico | like above... | 08:41 |
| epico | msgid "Filter" | 08:41 |
| epico | msgstr "" | 08:41 |
| Daisy_ | when we generate pot, the exact same string will appear only once. it's by default. | 08:41 |
| epico | Daisy_, the information is in the comment. | 08:42 |
| Daisy_ | epico shows a good sample. | 08:42 |
| Daisy_ | Yes. | 08:42 |
| epico | "Filter" is used 4 times. | 08:42 |
| jpich | I don't think most developers builds the po files when making a change though, since that's handled automatically by Jenkins | 08:42 |
| jpich | and there can be many changes so it wouldn't be easily visible | 08:42 |
| jpich | I'm not sure the "exact string only once" rule would be easy to enforce | 08:42 |
| jpich | currently | 08:42 |
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| * epico means to reduce msgctxt usage, just for needed cases. | 08:43 | |
| epico | sorry, I mean for future msgctxt usage. | 08:43 |
| Daisy_ | exact same string means same strings, no differences at all, even punctuation is same. | 08:44 |
| epico | Daisy_, yes | 08:44 |
| ygbo | epico: coders see the context in the code, but most translators do not and do not necesserly understand the python code, this is more usefull for coders to know where to look for when a translators comes asking for help. | 08:44 |
| Daisy_ | While generating pot files, these strings will be merged into 1 msgid, and appear once in a single pot file. | 08:44 |
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| * ygbo is talking abouth the line in the po where the string is | 08:45 | |
| epico | ygbo, I mean the developer can read the pot file to decide not to use context marker for strings used only once. | 08:45 |
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| epico | s/not/whether or not/ | 08:45 |
| Daisy_ | if these strings are with same meaning, I think there is no need to use context. | 08:45 |
| epico | Daisy_, agreed. :) | 08:46 |
| Daisy_ | Using context will add more strings into pot file. | 08:46 |
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| epico | yeah | 08:46 |
| ygbo | epico: the issue is that the pot file is not generated by the developper. | 08:46 |
| jpich | epico: I think we'll need input from the translation team if things are missed, because most developers don't look at the po files | 08:46 |
| epico | jpich, okay | 08:46 |
| epico | but for one place string maybe we can avoid the msgctxt. | 08:47 |
| ygbo | <Daisy_> if these strings are with same meaning, I think there is no need to use context. +1 | 08:47 |
| epico | +1 | 08:48 |
| Daisy_ | I think we can have a discussion when ygbo finishes the training document for developers. | 08:48 |
| rajeshr | Daisy_, ther is fedora SIG: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SSCG | 08:48 |
| jpich | Sounds great :) | 08:48 |
| rajeshr | work with the prob of context | 08:48 |
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| Daisy_ | I believe in this document, there will be more details, e.g. whether to add context for one place string. | 08:48 |
| rajeshr | Daisy_, https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/b/bf/Guidelines_for_contextualization.pdf | 08:48 |
| ygbo | Daisy_: sure | 08:49 |
| Daisy_ | great, rajeshr. | 08:49 |
| Daisy_ | we can use them as the references. | 08:49 |
| epico | could we also document the pot file of times of strings used in the document? | 08:49 |
| epico | cool | 08:49 |
| Daisy_ | why we document them, epico? | 08:49 |
| rajeshr | Daisy_, one more on FUEL: http://svn.fedorahosted.org/svn/fuel/qa/fuel-context-in-technical-translation-concept-and-guidelines.pdf | 08:49 |
| jpich | rajeshr: Do I understand correctly that this is a team that focuses only on adding context markers?? | 08:49 |
| epico | Daisy_, I think developer need to add the context marker before translations... | 08:50 |
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| rajeshr | jpich, I know some contributor here in SIG but don;t know in detail, mailing list is also there | 08:50 |
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| Daisy_ | I don't know if developers know about it, epico. | 08:51 |
| epico | Daisy_, a guide about how to add context markers for developers. | 08:51 |
| Daisy_ | that's what ygbo is going to wrint. | 08:51 |
| jpich | rajeshr: Nice! That would really help if some people took on that role too to help with new strings :-) | 08:51 |
| epico | Daisy_, great. :) | 08:52 |
| Daisy_ | ;et | 08:52 |
| Daisy_ | let's move on, and we will have the second discussion when ygbo is done. | 08:52 |
| Daisy_ | #topic I18n related sessions in design summit | 08:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "I18n related sessions in design summit (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n)" | 08:53 | |
| epico | about log message id generation | 08:53 |
| epico | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-April/031855.html | 08:53 |
| Daisy_ | There is one session in infrastructure track to discuss translation tools. | 08:53 |
| epico | Daisy_, jpich, guess you saw the discussion? | 08:54 |
| Daisy_ | There is another session in cross-project track to discuss log standards, including I18n standards. | 08:54 |
| Daisy_ | Are there any other sessions that I miss ? | 08:54 |
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| jpich | I think there's some conflicts with Horizon sessions again but I will try to make some i18n sessions as I can | 08:55 |
| Daisy_ | OK. | 08:55 |
| Daisy_ | Thanks, jpich. | 08:55 |
| jpich | epico: Are you working on adding error message ids? | 08:56 |
| Daisy_ | Who will attend Atlanta summit, besides jpich ? | 08:56 |
| Daisy_ | Let's move to open discussion | 08:57 |
| epico | jpich, I think both English logging and Translated logging can replace the error message id. | 08:57 |
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| Daisy_ | #topic Open discussion | 08:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: OpenStack I18n)" | 08:57 | |
| epico | the English log is fit for the developers. | 08:57 |
| epico | translated log is fit for users. | 08:58 |
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| Daisy_ | so epico's point is that "no need to add message ID" | 08:58 |
| epico | Daisy_, right. | 08:58 |
| Daisy_ | I think, no need to add ID for all messages, but for error messages, maybe it is useful. In that point, it's not message ID, but error code. | 08:59 |
| epico | Daisy_, yeah, any details? | 09:00 |
| Daisy_ | not much details | 09:00 |
| Daisy_ | we could discuss off line | 09:00 |
| epico | okay | 09:00 |
| Daisy_ | Any other things to talk? | 09:01 |
| Daisy_ | If no, I will close the meeting. | 09:01 |
| Daisy_ | My network keeps on re-connecting again and again. :( | 09:01 |
| Daisy_ | OK. Thank you all for attending. | 09:02 |
| jpich | thanks | 09:02 |
| rajeshr | thank you everybody | 09:02 |
| Daisy_ | Especially thanks for people who are on holidays. | 09:02 |
| epico | thanks | 09:02 |
| ujuc_phone | :) | 09:02 |
| ygbo | thank you all. | 09:02 |
| rajeshr | :) | 09:02 |
| Daisy_ | #endmeeting | 09:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 09:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 1 09:02:40 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 09:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_i18n/2014/openstack_i18n.2014-05-01-08.01.html | 09:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_i18n/2014/openstack_i18n.2014-05-01-08.01.txt | 09:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_i18n/2014/openstack_i18n.2014-05-01-08.01.log.html | 09:02 |
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| ujuc_phone | Bye | 09:03 |
| fdot | Bye :) | 09:03 |
| epico | Bye | 09:04 |
| ygbo | Bye :-) | 09:04 |
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| rm_work | o/ | 14:00 |
| sbalukoff | Howdy, folks! | 14:00 |
| enikanorov_ | hi | 14:00 |
| blogan | hello | 14:00 |
| mestery | o/ | 14:01 |
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| german_ | hi | 14:01 |
| vjay | Hi | 14:01 |
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| enikanorov_ | let's start the meeting, Kyle Mestery offered his help in conducting this one | 14:01 |
| TrevorV | Hi | 14:01 |
| s3wong | Hello | 14:02 |
| enikanorov_ | so he is the chair today | 14:02 |
| enikanorov_ | #startmeeting neutron lbaas | 14:02 |
| mestery | enikanorov_: The meeting is typically called just lbaas? or neutron_lbaas? | 14:02 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 1 14:02:12 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is enikanorov_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)" | 14:02 | |
| mestery | Heh | 14:02 |
| mestery | :) | 14:02 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_lbaas' | 14:02 |
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| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/LBaaS Agenda | 14:02 |
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| mestery | So, thanks to all for joining and thanks for the great discussions on the ML! | 14:02 |
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| mestery | One thing I was hoping was that today we could try to keep focused on a single conversation at a time. | 14:02 |
| mestery | I've noticed in the past few weeks it's hard to keep up with everything during this meeting. | 14:03 |
| mestery | There is a lot to cover for sure, but trying to focus on one conversation at a time makes it easier. Sound ok? | 14:03 |
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| blogan | sounds good | 14:03 |
| enikanorov_ | sure | 14:03 |
| sbalukoff | Ok! | 14:03 |
| TrevorV | agred | 14:03 |
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| TrevorV | agreed*** | 14:03 |
| tmc3inphilly | rgr | 14:03 |
| mestery | Great! | 14:03 |
| jorgem | hello | 14:03 |
| rm_work | we'll try | 14:03 |
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| mestery | :) | 14:03 |
| mestery | rm_work: :) | 14:03 |
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| mestery | OK, so to start off per enikanorov_'s email, lets talk about sbalukoff's google doc a bit more | 14:04 |
| mestery | #link https://docs.google.com/document/d/129Da7zEk5p437_88_IKiQnNuWXzWaS_CpQVm4JBeQnc/edit#heading=h.hgpfh6kl7j7a | 14:04 |
| samuelbercovici | sure | 14:04 |
| mestery | sbalukoff: I've read through this, thanks for putting this together! | 14:05 |
| sbalukoff | Glad I could help! | 14:05 |
| mestery | Actually, I see a lot more recent comments on this since I read through it a few days back even :) | 14:05 |
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| mestery | sbalukoff enikanorov_: The main focus in this document is the API, correct? Have people had a chance to look at this in detail yet? | 14:06 |
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| blogan | i've looked at it and asked some questions about it to stephen on the ML | 14:06 |
| jorgem | yes | 14:06 |
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| sbalukoff | Yes, my understanding was this was an API design proposal, and we've attached a proposed object diagram to it, too. | 14:06 |
| samuelbercovici | mestery: I have looked at it and sent comments on L7 to ML and will send later today comments on SSL. | 14:06 |
| blogan | stephen did answer them and most of them were minor quibbles | 14:07 |
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| mestery | OK, great! Are people converging on this being at least a good starting point from the LBaaS API perspective? | 14:07 |
| jorgem | mestery: I sent an email last and think that all proposals should be compared on equal footing. | 14:08 |
| enikanorov_ | more particularly, a question to Rackspace folks: do you find 'single call' part of the document suitable for your needs? | 14:08 |
| sbalukoff | I would also like to know at some point (not necessarily during this meeting): What requirements / use cases or other concerns that you have might not be addressed in thie proposal? | 14:08 |
| mestery | jorgem: Yes, completely agree there. | 14:08 |
| samuelbercovici | blogan: did not see response on [openstack-dev] [Neutron][LBaaS]L7 conent switching APIs | 14:08 |
| rm_work | yes -- funnily enough, it actually seems remarkably similar to what we proposed :) I think I am ok with most of it, besides a few naming issues and minor attributes | 14:08 |
| jorgem | I'd like to discuss the pros and cons of each proposal. So far I see three. | 14:08 |
| rm_work | though yes, we should go through all of them | 14:08 |
| german_ | +1 | 14:09 |
| jorgem | There are things I do like about this proposal but I want to make sure we get the good ideas from all of them. | 14:09 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: it was the day stephen put it on the ML, wasn't in response to that thread | 14:09 |
| mestery | jorgem: I am fine with that, I think we should ideally try to converge by next week so we can make effective use of the Summit facetime. Agree? | 14:09 |
| jorgem | mestery: agree | 14:09 |
| enikanorov_ | i think naming differences and attributes polishing is what could be done on per-feature basis | 14:09 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: sure, which is why i have no real stated objections | 14:10 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: good! | 14:10 |
| rm_work | though I don't speak for my whole team, obviously | 14:10 |
| mestery | OK, so now hte question is: How should we effectively evaluate all 3 proposals in the coming week? | 14:10 |
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| jorgem | One of the the important things I do not want to lose sight of is building the API against the features that we have prioritized. Edge cases shouldn't be a show stopper. | 14:10 |
| mestery | We need someone to come up with a good comparison of all 3, showing gaps and overlap, etc. | 14:10 |
| mestery | jorgem: I agree with that sentiment. | 14:11 |
| rm_work | though sbalukoff I am not seeing SSL Termination support? or am I just blind… | 14:11 |
| enikanorov_ | one moment, guys | 14:11 |
| enikanorov_ | there are TWO proposals | 14:11 |
| enikanorov_ | not three | 14:11 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: sbalukoff's, yours, ours? | 14:11 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: It's in there, with SNI support, too. | 14:11 |
| blogan | yeah it is | 14:11 |
| enikanorov_ | mine is a part of stephen's | 14:11 |
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| jorgem | enikanorov_: I though you wanted to start from the current API? | 14:11 |
| german_ | SSL support is a concern for the VPN folks, too, so there is some overlap... | 14:11 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: I saw the SNI but not how exactly we'd terminate. i'll look again | 14:11 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: stephen's proposal can be implemented by evolving existing API | 14:12 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: Look at the default_certificate_id attribute of the "listener" object. :) | 14:12 |
| jorgem | enikanorov_: Okay, two proposals then. My apologies. | 14:12 |
| mestery | jorgem enikanorov_: If this is the case, then we can quickly find gaps between the two proposals and try to close them to satisfy the use cases I think. | 14:12 |
| enikanorov_ | np | 14:12 |
| german_ | sbalukoff, since SSL overlaps it should be outside VPN, LBaaS | 14:13 |
| enikanorov_ | i see one major gap | 14:13 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: so… just by specifying that, it terminates? | 14:13 |
| enikanorov_ | which is API nesting in jorgem's proposal | 14:13 |
| jorgem | mestery: So to answer your question. I think we should have workflows of single and multiple api calls for each of the use cases we have identified. | 14:13 |
| enikanorov_ | vs flat API in sbalukoff's | 14:13 |
| sbalukoff | mestery: Do you want someone to just create a spreadsheet with proposals as the columns, and use cases as the rows? | 14:13 |
| mestery | jorgem: I agree with that, per the email thread. | 14:13 |
| tmc3inphilly | one conversation por favor | 14:13 |
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| rm_work | enikanorov_: sbalukoff claimed everything could be nested, did he not? | 14:13 |
| mestery | sbalukoff: That would be awesome! | 14:13 |
| blogan | i think the main difference is the use of the term load balancer (which obviously can be changed) and rackspace's proposal support multiple vips but only one port on a single "load balancer" instance while stephen's support an IPv4 and IPv6 VIP and multiple ports on the "load balancer" instance which he calls a VIP | 14:13 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: i mean nesting in url structure, not in the payload | 14:13 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: I think I did, or effectively did. | 14:14 |
| mestery | Folks, lets focus on the API comparison now, can we leave the SSL stuff to a bit later? | 14:14 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: ah, thanks for the clarification | 14:14 |
| mestery | I know that's important, but we need to focus on one thing or it gets too hard to maintain a semblence of order. :) | 14:14 |
| enikanorov_ | yes, i think we need to discuss SSL separately | 14:14 |
| german_ | mestery +1 | 14:14 |
| rm_work | mestery: sorry, will try HARDER. :) | 14:14 |
| mestery | Lets finish the API talk and then move on to SSL next. | 14:14 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: you see it's structurally the same | 14:14 |
| samuelbercovici | mestery +1 | 14:14 |
| mestery | sbalukoff: So, are you volunteering to produce the API comparision spreadsheet mapping to use cases? CAn you work with jorgem on this? | 14:15 |
| blogan | mestery: i will help out as well | 14:15 |
| jorgem | mestery: Yes I will help | 14:15 |
| mestery | blogan: Perfect! | 14:15 |
| enikanorov_ | good | 14:15 |
| german_ | can we share the spreadhseet so we all can pitch in | 14:15 |
| mestery | I will assign the three of you an action item for that. | 14:15 |
| samuelbercovici | mestery: i will help out as well | 14:16 |
| sbalukoff | mestery: Sure! I'm sensing an action item? | 14:16 |
| blogan | german_: of course | 14:16 |
| mestery | german_: Absolutely! I think it makes sense to have someone start it off and then share it. | 14:16 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: Have you had a chance to look at the workflows we presented. I think if you could create something similar it may help to identify pros and cons. | 14:16 |
| jorgem | #link https://drive.google.com/#folders/0B2r4apUP7uPwRVc2MzQ2MHNpcE0 | 14:16 |
| german_ | great!! | 14:16 |
| mestery | #action sbalukoff jorgem blogan to draft API comparison spreadsheet mapping to use cases. | 14:16 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: Could you (or someone one your team) please produce a glossary of terms for your API proposal? Just so we are all clear on definitions. | 14:16 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: If you have another idea I am open to that as well. | 14:16 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: sure | 14:16 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: I looked through a couple of them (I think you had 9 at the time)? | 14:17 |
| blogan | #action blogan creates glossary of terms for rackspace's proposal | 14:17 |
| jorgem | correct. we will add more | 14:17 |
| mestery | So the expectation is by next week's IRC meeting (ideally before) we can have this ready and ideally make a decision to move forward then. | 14:17 |
| sbalukoff | I don't know that I can address all use cases, since the use case document is up to 43 so far. | 14:17 |
| sbalukoff | And that's just the "user" use cases. | 14:17 |
| mestery | jorgem: Thanks for hte link, nice work on drafting all of that up! | 14:17 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: That's fine the main ones that hit on the feautures we have prioritized should be a good place to start. | 14:17 |
| enikanorov_ | some of the use cases map to particular set of values for attributes | 14:18 |
| TrevorV | sbalukoff: I've been doing some work with examples according to our API, not sure if you'd like me to share those in this comparison chart as well | 14:18 |
| enikanorov_ | like 'support for XXX balancing algorithm' | 14:18 |
| TrevorV | sbalukoff: Specifically with use cases I mean | 14:18 |
| sbalukoff | By the way-- I want to be clear that my proposal certainly isn't "set in stone". If we discover gaps, I'm hoping to change the proposal to address the gaps. | 14:18 |
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| enikanorov_ | i think that we need to have a general consensus on the API | 14:18 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: understood. Likewise for ours. | 14:18 |
| enikanorov_ | and then flush details | 14:18 |
| sbalukoff | TrevorV: It sounds like that might be useful, eh! | 14:18 |
| enikanorov_ | like attributes and such | 14:18 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: same with rackspace, that was always the intention | 14:19 |
| sbalukoff | Cool. | 14:19 |
| enikanorov_ | otherwise we'll gid in the details without producing a decision | 14:19 |
| enikanorov_ | *dig | 14:19 |
| mestery | I think we have a plan on the API front here to move forward, comparing and closing gaps. | 14:19 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: Let's decide first which use cases to produce workflows so we can make sure we compare the same use cases. What do you think? | 14:20 |
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| mestery | Can we move on to the SSL discussion now? | 14:21 |
| mestery | Seems like there was some interest in talking about that a bit. | 14:21 |
| blogan | i have a question about the object model | 14:21 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: That sounds fine to me, mostly... though I'm honestly a little uncomfortable potentially leaving some use cases out. | 14:21 |
| blogan | just a quick question | 14:21 |
| mestery | blogan: Sure, go ahead please. | 14:21 |
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| jorgem | sbalukoff: I'm okay with doing all or a subset. It's your call. | 14:21 |
| blogan | what happens if the API that is decided on requires a major revamp of the object model? | 14:21 |
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| sbalukoff | jorgem: Shall we talk about this offline? (Don't think we need to take up meeting time for that level of specificity, eh.) | 14:22 |
| enikanorov_ | how major are you expecting it to be? | 14:22 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: Yes, I'll send you an email. | 14:22 |
| sbalukoff | Cool, thanks! | 14:22 |
| blogan | oh I don't know, its more a theoretical question, I'm just wondering how major revamps work in this type of project | 14:22 |
| enikanorov_ | every proposal changes object model in some way | 14:22 |
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| enikanorov_ | blogan: so far proposals are focused around the same set of objects | 14:23 |
| mestery | Should we expect at least minor object model changes here? jorgem sbalukoff enikanorov_?? | 14:23 |
| enikanorov_ | it's better to do anychanges in the way that existing code (even if changed) still works | 14:23 |
| vjay | what are the aspects in which comparision will be done? like backward compatibil | 14:23 |
| enikanorov_ | mestery: absolutely | 14:23 |
| sbalukoff | mestery: I think so. | 14:23 |
| sbalukoff | But... | 14:23 |
| vjay | reuse | 14:23 |
| sbalukoff | Stated another way, I think: Are there any potential changes that are off the table? | 14:24 |
| enikanorov_ | object model changes in several aspects: attributes, relationships and object being added | 14:24 |
| jorgem | mestery: There will definitely be additions since there are new features being requested. | 14:24 |
| enikanorov_ | i think both proposals imply that | 14:24 |
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| blogan | well i'm just afraid that if we try to duct tape the API around an object model that doesn't work well with the API then it will be a maintenance nightmare, thats my real concern | 14:24 |
| mestery | sbalukoff: I am an evolutionary guy, so if we can evolve the current model into something new, it's better, but lets see what we come up with. | 14:24 |
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| mestery | jorgem: Agreed there. | 14:24 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: obj model is changed with API obviously | 14:25 |
| mestery | blogan: Lets cross that bridge when we get there and make a call as a team at that point. | 14:25 |
| blogan | mestery: evolution is fine from a good foundation | 14:25 |
| jorgem | I think we should agree on API spec first. Then figure out a transition plan. | 14:25 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: the foundation is good enough, actually | 14:25 |
| german_ | jorgem +1 | 14:25 |
| mestery | jorgem: +1 | 14:25 |
| TrevorV | jorgem: +1 | 14:25 |
| enikanorov_ | yes, that would be the right thing to do | 14:25 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: +1 | 14:25 |
| mestery | Perfect! | 14:26 |
| crc32 | yea like evolution works but some APIs have to go extinct for this to work. | 14:26 |
| tmc3inphilly | +1 | 14:26 |
| mestery | OK, anything else on the API front now? | 14:26 |
| samuelbercovici | jorgem: +1 | 14:26 |
| mestery | I think we have a good plan for the next week to address this. | 14:26 |
| vjay | should we discussion on what aspects to be considered during comparison? | 14:26 |
| rm_work | my questions about SSL are specific to sbalukoff's API proposal, so does that count for API discussion or SSL discussion? :) | 14:26 |
| mestery | And we should definitely continue the ML discussions on the API Front once the comparison spreadsheet is done. | 14:26 |
| vjay | sorry discuss | 14:26 |
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| blogan | no im good | 14:26 |
| mestery | rm_work: Lets answer vjay's question then go to SSL :) | 14:27 |
| jorgem | vjay: I think that is a good idea. What metrics to compare on? | 14:27 |
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| jorgem | before we go into SSL | 14:27 |
| sbalukoff | vjay: I think our plan was to compare / contrast workflows for specific use cases, and present this in a spreadsheet. | 14:27 |
| mestery | vjay: I think we're covering all use cases and mapping APIs to the use cases, right jorgem sbalukoff? | 14:27 |
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| sbalukoff | mestery: Yes. | 14:27 |
| mestery | vjay: Does that answer your question? | 14:28 |
| samuelbercovici | I think that probably the first 8 use cases should be fine to see how workflows would differ | 14:28 |
| sbalukoff | vjay: So, if yo have a specific use case that's not yet addressed in the document, get it in there ASAP! | 14:28 |
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| vjay | ok. | 14:28 |
| vjay | thats fine | 14:28 |
| mestery | OK, lets move on to SSL. | 14:28 |
| mestery | rm_work: The floor is yours. :) | 14:28 |
| rm_work | yes, many of those use cases are really "duplicate" with regard to actual workflow, since they just specify like "do what we just did, but with a different protocol", etvc | 14:28 |
| rm_work | *etc | 14:28 |
| rm_work | mestery: heh, well I don't have MUCH, just trying to understand how SSL Term works in sbalukoff's proposal | 14:29 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: I think I may get it now -- so to do SSL Term, you use HTTPS protocol, and HTTPS passthrough would use TCP? | 14:29 |
| rm_work | I was just expecting HTTPS to be "passthrough" and there to be a specific option to enable SSL Term, since that is what I am used to seeing | 14:29 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: Yes. Though I didn't specifically address the case of doing session tracking using SSL session_id in this-- that could be done with additions to the Layer-7 stuff, or an explicit flag that states whether HTTPS connections should be terminated on the load balancer. | 14:30 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: That specific option could be added. | 14:31 |
| rm_work | yeah, ok | 14:31 |
| rm_work | I might worry it would be confusing when not explicit :) | 14:31 |
| sbalukoff | One of the goals of my API was to try to keep the number of object and number of attributes per object minimal. | 14:31 |
| samuelbercovici | SSL session_id is usualy a persistency property for HTTPS | 14:31 |
| sbalukoff | Since there's a maintenance cost going forward for having them. | 14:31 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: that is a good goal to have | 14:32 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: Yep. | 14:32 |
| rm_work | that's all I had :) like I said, just wanted to clear that up | 14:32 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: There are other implications like that subtly hidden in my API proposal. | 14:32 |
| samuelbercovici | so we could have had HTTPS for non teminated protocols and TLS for terminated ones | 14:32 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: so that the protocol more clearly implies what's happening with regard to termination? | 14:33 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: Yep! It's just a matter of specifing the exact parameter, and what the load balancer behavior should be for each parameter. | 14:33 |
| samuelbercovici | this is a good things as there are capabilities available for TLS which should not be available for HTTPS | 14:33 |
| rm_work | I would be for that, though I worry about the redundancy of having another protocol just to explicitly state "this is HTTPS Passthrough" when it's exactly the same functionally as TCP :( | 14:33 |
| german_ | +1 | 14:34 |
| samuelbercovici | rm_work: this is not exactly the case as for exmaple SSL session id is only relevant for HTTPS and not TCP | 14:34 |
| rm_work | ah, true | 14:34 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: Would it make sense to list the protocols we want to support and how they should be treated on the load balancer? | 14:34 |
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| german_ | yes | 14:34 |
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| samuelbercovici | actualy TLS has all the capabilitiy of HTTP | 14:35 |
| samuelbercovici | from a configuration perspective | 14:35 |
| crc32 | SSL session id is apart of the TLS handshake so it could be used on TCP as well right? | 14:35 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: maybe? normally I would say that's outside the realm of an API spec, but in this case they have specific implications about API functionality | 14:35 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: The devil is always in the details. :) | 14:35 |
| samuelbercovici | crc32: but if it is a pure TCP protocol it should not be avialble for selection | 14:35 |
| tmc3inphilly | from an end-user of the api having a specific call out for termination would be best | 14:36 |
| tmc3inphilly | less abiguity | 14:36 |
| samuelbercovici | i agree | 14:36 |
| rm_work | Well, if the protocols were more clear in specifying that they were controlling SSLTerm/Passthrough, it would be fine I think | 14:36 |
| sbalukoff | Well, there's also the question: Is there a use case we're considering that uses TLS that *is not* just HTTPS? | 14:36 |
| tmc3inphilly | think of least common denominator (customers) | 14:36 |
| rm_work | as it is, it was ambiguous enough to cause me confusion | 14:36 |
| sbalukoff | ie. some other protocol support that's also using transport layer security? | 14:36 |
| sbalukoff | If so, can we get that added to the use cases? | 14:36 |
| rm_work | HTTP / HTTPS (Terminated) / HTTPS (Passthrough) / TCP | 14:37 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: obviously HTTPS on a non default 443 port does not meet your case, right? | 14:37 |
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| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: in your proposal there is a difference between SNI and a siongle certificate, why is this? | 14:38 |
| rm_work | but anyway, that is pretty much my only gripe currently with this proposal (other than I'd rather have Loadbalancer as the root object instead of VIP, though I see that you're trying to use an LB object for something specific at a higher level...) | 14:39 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: Actually HTTPS on a non-standard port is still HTTPS, in my opinion. | 14:39 |
| crc32 | sbalukoff: I can't think of one but tls does appear specified outside of the protocol. So do we lock TLS into HTTP(ssl term) and HTTPS(passthrough with SSLID persistence) only and regret it later on? | 14:39 |
| sbalukoff | Covered under the same use case. | 14:39 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff +1 | 14:39 |
| samuelbercovici | balukoff: yes i agree | 14:39 |
| TrevorV | sbalukoff: there are a great many SSL termination use-cases in the document. Some of which I have addressed with the Rackspace proposal already, we can see those when we compare the APIs if you like | 14:39 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: and I think it is because there should be a default cert for fallback if no SNI matches? | 14:39 |
| sbalukoff | crc32: Until someone has a use case we want to address, yes. In this case, I don't like leaving things too open-ended or you end up trying to solve problems that are never actually problems. | 14:40 |
| rm_work | oh wait, i might be reading the wrong section | 14:40 |
| sbalukoff | So on the SNI stuff: | 14:40 |
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| samuelbercovici | rm_work: I think that might be addressed by ordering the list | 14:40 |
| crc32 | fair enough. I just wonder if any one wants LDAPS to session persisted. | 14:40 |
| sbalukoff | Yes, the default cert id attribute of the listener covers cases of HTTP/1.0 connections, or where SNI is not being used. | 14:40 |
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| sbalukoff | It turns out, even with SNI, you still need to specify the default cert, in case the web client asks for a hostname that's not explicitly configured. | 14:41 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: yeah, i would assume the default cert id would be used if there are no SNI rules specified, as opposed to requiring an SNI rule on every SSL LB, and using * as a match | 14:41 |
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| sbalukoff | If you're just going to be using one certificate for a given HTTPS site, then you don't have to worry about SNI policies at all. | 14:42 |
| sbalukoff | Just specify the default_certificate_id. | 14:42 |
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| sbalukoff | But if you want to use more than one certificate for a listener (ie. this is an IP + single port combination), then the only way to do this is with SNI. | 14:43 |
| samuelbercovici | default certificate must be provided in case SNI is not supported | 14:43 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: Correct. | 14:43 |
| samuelbercovici | but it can be the 1st in the list | 14:43 |
| sbalukoff | Though, with very few exceptions, all modern browsers can do SNI. | 14:43 |
| samuelbercovici | if no SNI, than only one certificate | 14:43 |
| sbalukoff | Yes. | 14:44 |
| sbalukoff | That works too... | 14:44 |
| samuelbercovici | so why are there two diferent entries? | 14:44 |
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| rm_work | samuelbercovici: but then you require the user to set up "SNI Cert" with some match, even if they don't know what SNI *is*? :P | 14:44 |
| sbalukoff | I was trying to do the same kind of model that works for default pool vs. pool that gets selected for L7 policy. | 14:44 |
| sbalukoff | Er... pool that gets selected by an L7 policy. | 14:44 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: If the user wants to use more than one certificate per HTTPS listener, they need to understand they're using SNI. | 14:45 |
| sbalukoff | As it is, though... | 14:45 |
| rm_work | but if they don't want more than one.... | 14:45 |
| samuelbercovici | the other part is that I prefer to specify trusted certificates using the same scemantics on a differetn list | 14:45 |
| rm_work | they shouldn't have to set up SNI, which they would if we removed the "default cert" concept | 14:45 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: Aah! Yes, you're right. | 14:46 |
| samuelbercovici | this might be more easier than to ustilize if certificates are actualy stores in Barbican | 14:46 |
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| sbalukoff | Yeah, I have no problem splitting trusted_certificates away as its own object instead of using the ca_chain field of the tls_certificates objects. | 14:46 |
| sbalukoff | The way I suggested uses fewer objects but is certainly more confusing. | 14:47 |
| tmc3inphilly | how would that work for an off-the-shelf LB on the backend? | 14:47 |
| sbalukoff | tmc3inphilly: Sorry, I'm not sure who you're asking, and that "that" is in your question. | 14:47 |
| sbalukoff | and what "that" is. | 14:47 |
| sbalukoff | Sheesh. Sorry, guys, it's early. | 14:48 |
| tmc3inphilly | sorry the management of certs through Barbican | 14:48 |
| samuelbercovici | I am also missing the capability to controll allowed protocols (ex: TLS1, TLS.1.2) and allowed cypher suites both for temination an backencryption | 14:48 |
| rm_work | I assume it would be "transparently" | 14:48 |
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| rm_work | samuelbercovici: I am not sure allowing control of cipher suites is a great idea in general <_< | 14:48 |
| tmc3inphilly | you should be able to specify protocols (force TLS 1.2) | 14:49 |
| rm_work | I guess if it is an absolute requirement for some... | 14:49 |
| sbalukoff | tmc3inphilly: Oh! Well... I need to look into how to use barbican first of all. But presumably it'd would be treated simply as an SSL certificate store. So you could potentially still add and removed certificates using LBaaS API, they just won't be stored by us. | 14:49 |
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| tmc3inphilly | sbalukoff gotcha | 14:49 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: yes, this is how it shoould be treated | 14:49 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: yeah, that's what I am thinking. it's essentially transparent. we take in the cert -> throw it in barbican -> store the barbican ID | 14:49 |
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| rm_work | done | 14:49 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: Yes, I didn't address SSL ciper and protocol support. I think I would just make these additional attributes of the listener. | 14:50 |
| mestery | rm_work: +1 to that | 14:50 |
| crc32 | sbalukoff I was advocating useing barbican to store the keys only (Since encrypting the keys was the end goal) and not for storing the X509s as well. | 14:50 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: ok. the one I have in addition | 14:50 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: I don't see a real need to control ciphers and protocol information per certificate. (I'm not even sure that's possible.) | 14:50 |
| tmc3inphilly | how about cipher suite profile? | 14:51 |
| rm_work | there is some question about HOW we store it in barbican (on the tenant? on our own service account? if it's on the tenant, what happens if they mess with it outside of our API?) but that discussion can happen later | 14:51 |
| crc32 | sbalukoff' | 14:51 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: you are right | 14:51 |
| sbalukoff | crc32: It could be done that way, too, yes. | 14:51 |
| tmc3inphilly | pre-defined cipher suite profiles | 14:51 |
| enikanorov_ | folks, i suggest we switch to the summit agenda | 14:51 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: Yes, it would be on the tenant, and presumably that would break things for us if they do mess with it outside our API. | 14:51 |
| crc32 | sbalukoff: No I think the attempt was to store the CIPHER suit at the loadbalancer layer. | 14:51 |
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| enikanorov_ | we have 10 minutes left | 14:51 |
| mestery | 10 minutes left, yes. :) | 14:52 |
| mestery | Actually now 8 | 14:52 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: it should be on the tenant | 14:52 |
| german_ | and we can't run over :-) | 14:52 |
| sbalukoff | Ok, further SSL questions on the mailing list! | 14:52 |
| mestery | sbalukoff: +1! | 14:52 |
| german_ | +1 | 14:52 |
| mestery | OK, so, Summit Agenda. | 14:52 |
| mestery | LBaaS has 2 40 minute slots, there is a lot to cover and we want to make good use of those slots. | 14:53 |
| enikanorov_ | i think there should be 2 general discussions | 14:53 |
| samuelbercovici | concluding the API decision would be top | 14:53 |
| enikanorov_ | which are user requirements and operator rquirements | 14:53 |
| mestery | We may want to leave some time in one session for the key/certificate discussion with Barbican as well, just a thought. Maybe 15-20 minutes of one of those. | 14:53 |
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| enikanorov_ | right | 14:53 |
| samuelbercovici | to me the goal form the summit is to have action items, tasks and prople allocated so work could start | 14:54 |
| enikanorov_ | i also think that's not necessary to devide those two in 1:1 ratio | 14:54 |
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| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: +1 | 14:54 |
| samuelbercovici | mestery: I think we can discuss 1st with VPNaaS and Barbican on ML | 14:54 |
| mestery | Yes, we should be prepared to discuss open items which have not closed prior to the summit, and come out of it with a plan to move forward. | 14:54 |
| enikanorov_ | also, there's an idea to hold additional face to face discussion out of design tracks. i'll probably will have a room to host this | 14:54 |
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| mestery | samuelbercovici: Yes, in fact we discussed in the advanced services meeting yesterday. | 14:54 |
| enikanorov_ | what do you think on this? | 14:54 |
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| jorgem | Once an API proposal is selected (to start from). We need to figure out a transition plan in terms of implementation. Should that be a part of the general meetings or held in more of the design sessions? | 14:55 |
| mestery | enikanorov_: That's good, we need to make sure we send invites on ML so people know where it is, times, etc. | 14:55 |
| enikanorov_ | mestery: sure! | 14:55 |
| mestery | jorgem: I think we should proceed on ML for that one and hope to close before the summit. | 14:55 |
| samuelbercovici | enikanorov_: gr8 | 14:55 |
| jorgem | mestery: Close on API, transition plan or both? | 14:56 |
| rm_work | One thing that we will need to do is discuss either the reworking of the current haproxy driver, or the creation of a new opensource driver for the HA / Scalability / Operator Requirements concerns. We've left this on the backburner because of the (correct) focus on the API, but it might at least be worth mentioning. I suppose we could probably un-conference that discussion though. | 14:56 |
| samuelbercovici | mestery: if from some reason this is not done by th summit. than it must be done in the summit in whatever manner otherwise we can progress anywhere | 14:56 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: that's interesting | 14:56 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: My team is already engaged in the latter, though we've not made much progress as I've been rather distracted with API discussion lately. :) | 14:56 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: can you send me an email with your thoughts on this? | 14:57 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: yeah, I assume this will be a group effort | 14:57 |
| sbalukoff | Yep. | 14:57 |
| samuelbercovici | rm_work: +1 | 14:57 |
| german_ | yep | 14:57 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: I'll try to work something up today. Just you, or just throw it up on the ML? | 14:57 |
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| mestery | jorgem: API, sorry. :)_ | 14:57 |
| crc32 | ML would be fine rm_work. | 14:57 |
| enikanorov_ | yeah, ML is even better | 14:57 |
| german_ | ML, please | 14:57 |
| rm_work | kk | 14:57 |
| mestery | samuelbercovici: Agreed | 14:57 |
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| mestery | OK, we're about out of time. | 14:58 |
| mestery | Lets wrap this one up now. | 14:58 |
| enikanorov_ | ok, so we'll have another meeting before the summit | 14:58 |
| mestery | We have some good action items! | 14:58 |
| enikanorov_ | yeah | 14:58 |
| samuelbercovici | gr8 stuff!!! | 14:59 |
| jorgem | Alright, thanks everyone! | 14:59 |
| sbalukoff | Yay! | 14:59 |
| rm_work | ah I suppose... | 14:59 |
| rm_work | #action rm_work Start driver discussion on ML | 14:59 |
| mestery | Thanks everyone, we'll see you all in-channel or on the ML! | 14:59 |
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| samuelbercovici | bye | 14:59 |
| vjay | thanks, bye | 14:59 |
| enikanorov_ | see you, bye | 14:59 |
| german_ | bye | 14:59 |
| rm_work | thanks! | 15:00 |
| TrevorV | thanks! | 15:00 |
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| tmc3inphilly | ciao | 15:00 |
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| mestery | enikanorov_: Did you do #endmeeting? | 15:01 |
| sbalukoff | Nope. | 15:01 |
| enikanorov_ | not yet | 15:01 |
| mestery | K | 15:01 |
| enikanorov_ | #endmeeting | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 1 15:01:23 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-05-01-14.02.html | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-05-01-14.02.txt | 15:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-05-01-14.02.log.html | 15:01 |
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| hyakuhei | nkinder: This is the right time, right :) ? | 18:03 |
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| nkinder | hyakuhei: yep! | 18:03 |
| hyakuhei | #startmeeting OpenStack Security Group | 18:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 1 18:03:19 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hyakuhei. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:03 |
| nkinder | ...or else we're both wrong :) | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group' | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | hey guys | 18:03 |
| paulmo | Paul Montgomery here | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | sorry, I'm a touch late | 18:03 |
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| hyakuhei | Ok lets spin-up while we wait for Mr Payne :) | 18:03 |
| hyakuhei | oh hey :D | 18:03 |
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| shohel02 | evhi | 18:03 |
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| hyakuhei | all yours | 18:03 |
| nkinder | hey paulmo | 18:03 |
| elo | Eric here | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | so hi everyone | 18:03 |
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| bdpayne | let's jump right into the agenda | 18:04 |
| bdpayne | #topic Agenda | 18:04 |
| bdpayne | I'd like to discuss the summit | 18:04 |
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| bdpayne | And our IRC meeting schedule around the summit | 18:04 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:04 |
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| bdpayne | what else would people like to discuss? | 18:04 |
| nkinder | We should get an update on the outstanding OSSNs | 18:05 |
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| shohel02 | some update on threat work | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | ok, sounds good | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | #topic IRC Meeting Schedule | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | So a few notes on the IRC meeting schedule | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | I'd like to propose that we make this the last IRC meeting prior to the summit | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | we can skip the next 2 weeks | 18:06 |
| hyakuhei | I'm happy with that. | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | and then pick up again post summit | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | that work with everyone? | 18:06 |
| nkinder | Sounds good | 18:06 |
| hyakuhei | Hopefully we can move discussions onto the mailing list as required. | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | in the past, we've had a pretty high drop off due to travel and such | 18:06 |
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| bdpayne | yeah, certainly use the mailing list if you have something to discuss | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | no need to wait 2 weeks :-) | 18:06 |
| nkinder | I think everyone is in Summit prep mode as it is... | 18:06 |
| nkinder | then summit hangover afterwards :) | 18:07 |
| * paulmo is in demo creation mode. | 18:07 | |
| bdpayne | great, I'll update the meeting wiki page shortly with that schedule | 18:07 |
| malini1 | greetings | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | #topic Summit Plans | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | So as you guys know, there's lots of security stuff happening at the summit | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | we have a security track on Monday | 18:07 |
| malini1 | nkinder: will send you end of day my OSSN draft. thank you for the excellent template and instructions to use the git repository | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | there's a security session at the dev summit on Tuesday afternoon | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | I'd like to suggest we do an OSSG meetup over a meal | 18:08 |
| bdpayne | perhaps lunch on Tuesday? | 18:08 |
| nkinder | yeah, I'm looking forward to the tuesday session | 18:08 |
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| malini1 | +1 to OSSG lunch at summit | 18:08 |
| nkinder | bdpayne: I know that hyakuhei is trying to get a OSSG/VMT lunch together too | 18:08 |
| hyakuhei | bdpayne: Maybe Thursday? I'm trying to line up a OSSN authors/VMT lunch for Tuesday. | 18:09 |
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| bdpayne | ahh, I wasn't sure if you had decided on Tues or Thurs for that | 18:09 |
| bdpayne | is that on Tues for sure? | 18:09 |
| hyakuhei | Not for sure but that's the day being batted around atm | 18:10 |
| bdpayne | ok | 18:10 |
| hyakuhei | If times are tight I don't mind combining things | 18:10 |
| bdpayne | so OSSG lunch on thursday then? | 18:10 |
| nkinder | that's fine with me | 18:10 |
| hyakuhei | That would be my preference at the moment yeah | 18:10 |
| bdpayne | any objections to that date? | 18:10 |
| malini1 | fine with me | 18:10 |
| shohel02 | ok with date | 18:10 |
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| bdpayne | sounds good, I'll work with hyakihei to put that together | 18:11 |
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| bdpayne | arg, typing not good today | 18:11 |
| bdpayne | any other discussion about the summit? | 18:11 |
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| bdpayne | ok, let's push ahead | 18:12 |
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| nkinder | bdpayne: we should chat about the monday session, but we can do that offline | 18:12 |
| bdpayne | #topic OSSN | 18:12 |
| bdpayne | nkinder yeah, I'll ping you today | 18:12 |
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| bdpayne | So, where are we at with OSSNs? | 18:12 |
| nkinder | same 2 outstanding as last week | 18:12 |
| nkinder | malini1 just mentioned she'll hav her draft ready for review end of day today | 18:13 |
| hyakuhei | Sigh - I still have one outstanding. | 18:13 |
| malini1 | OSSN -- Malini working on her one little OSSN .. should send out draft later today | 18:13 |
| hyakuhei | I'll make it the first thing I do tomorrow | 18:13 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: thanks! | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | ok, thanks guys | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | would be great to get those published before the summit | 18:13 |
| nkinder | +1 | 18:13 |
| hyakuhei | Absolutely | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | any other OSSN news? | 18:14 |
| nkinder | using pandoc for RST->XML is still on my list | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | oh cool | 18:14 |
| nkinder | I've had some back and forth to work out the gat/publishing job details with annegentle too | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | I'd be interested in knowing how that works out | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | could be useful for the book effort | 18:14 |
| shohel02 | pandoc seems some issue with format changing | 18:14 |
| nkinder | It's unlikely that I'll have it really working until after the summit | 18:15 |
| bdpayne | yeah, that's fine | 18:15 |
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| bdpayne | if it'd be helpful, perhaps we could find a time to hack on it together at the summit | 18:15 |
| bdpayne | #topic Threat Analysis | 18:16 |
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| nkinder | bdpayne: That would be good | 18:16 |
| bdpayne | shohel02 any updates? | 18:16 |
| shohel02 | yes, | 18:16 |
| shohel02 | most of the doc type documents are converted now | 18:16 |
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| shohel02 | https://github.com/shohel02/OpenStack_Threat_Modelling/tree/master/keystone/Formatted_Output | 18:16 |
| shohel02 | now it good time to start review | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | excellent | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | so what is the process for that? | 18:17 |
| shohel02 | anyone wants to volunteer | 18:17 |
| hyakuhei | shohel02: I would very much like to help with that, David Graves should be available too | 18:17 |
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| bdpayne | do we have some keystone core that can participate in that? | 18:17 |
| bknudson | yes, what do you need? | 18:18 |
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| shohel02 | currently doc contains the analysis report of each component wise | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | I think it would be good to have someone with deep knowledge of keystone to help with the review of the threat analysis work | 18:18 |
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| hyakuhei | I think having core members on the reviews is pretty pivotal | 18:18 |
| bknudson | shohel02: ok, will look through this | 18:18 |
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| hyakuhei | Devananda is available to do a Ironic review when we're ready shohel02 | 18:19 |
| bknudson | is this in gerrit, too? | 18:19 |
| shohel02 | yes | 18:19 |
| shohel02 | no | 18:19 |
| nkinder | bknudson: thanks! | 18:19 |
| shohel02 | thats something to think | 18:19 |
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| shohel02 | how to take it there | 18:19 |
| bknudson | shohel02: you want comments just in emails or something? | 18:19 |
| shohel02 | i think if we have the gerrit now, we can start using that | 18:19 |
| bdpayne | if not... could be doing through a github PR | 18:20 |
| malini1 | +1 gerrit -- email gets hairy to track | 18:20 |
| shohel02 | can we start using Security guide books gerrit system | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | just make an "approved" branch | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | and setup PRs to take each part of the review into that branch | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | and then people can comment on the PR | 18:20 |
| shohel02 | ok, i will make a branch | 18:20 |
| malini1 | PR ? | 18:20 |
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| bdpayne | shohel02 are you going to be at the summit? | 18:21 |
| bdpayne | PR == pull request | 18:21 |
| shohel02 | by the branch in Security guide section | 18:21 |
| shohel02 | yes | 18:21 |
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| bdpayne | shohel02, I'd like to chat about how we can best integrate this stuff with the book | 18:21 |
| bdpayne | probably easier to chat face to face | 18:21 |
| shohel02 | yes | 18:21 |
| hyakuhei | +1 | 18:22 |
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| bdpayne | ok, anything else on threat analysis? | 18:22 |
| nkinder | maybe we should have a discussion around all of the book integration topics (thread modeling, OSSNs, etc.) | 18:22 |
| shohel02 | christan is also working on nova one | 18:22 |
| nkinder | perhaps we can get some of Anne's time too | 18:22 |
| hyakuhei | Are there others than those two integration topics? | 18:22 |
| nkinder | Those are the main 2 right now | 18:23 |
| shohel02 | all from my side | 18:23 |
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| bdpayne | yeah, I'd be up for have a book integration discussion | 18:23 |
| bdpayne | sounds good | 18:23 |
| bdpayne | #topic Open Discussion | 18:23 |
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| malini1 | please try and attend: limited conductor API : http://summit.openstack.org/cfp/details/319 == this is to secure from compute node side | 18:23 |
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| bdpayne | So a quick plug / reminder that nkinder and I will be speaking at http://www.meetup.com/openstack/events/173686002/ this evening in Redwood City | 18:23 |
| nkinder | should be a nice summit warmup :) | 18:24 |
| bdpayne | yay | 18:24 |
| bdpayne | interestingly, my talk this evening has the same title as Rob's talk at the summit | 18:24 |
| nkinder | It's supposed to be recorded too, so we can share with others after it's published | 18:24 |
| hyakuhei | heh | 18:24 |
| bdpayne | hyakuhei I can sell my slides... for a price ;-) | 18:25 |
| shohel02 | :D | 18:25 |
| bdpayne | anything else to discuss? | 18:25 |
| hyakuhei | bdpayne: Put them on eBay, I'll let the free market work it out | 18:25 |
| hyakuhei | yes | 18:25 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: you asked about Kite last week | 18:25 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: did you see my write-up I sent out to the list? | 18:25 |
| hyakuhei | nkinder: wrote an excellent blog article a few days back | 18:25 |
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| hyakuhei | There's only one bug in it ;) | 18:25 |
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| nkinder | there's always at least one... | 18:25 |
| hyakuhei | Yeah nkinder I thought it was excellent | 18:26 |
| nkinder | great. Hopefully it makes the whole approach understandable for folks | 18:26 |
| bdpayne | I haven't had a chance to check it out yet | 18:26 |
| bdpayne | but it is on my reading list :-) | 18:26 |
| hyakuhei | It didn't go into a lot of depth on the nature of the secrets (what the key material _is_ ) but was great at showing the overall direction/architecture | 18:26 |
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| bdpayne | ok then, I think that's all for today... thanks everyone, and I'll see you at the summit! | 18:27 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: quick description - the long-term is really a password (though it could be some long random stuff) | 18:27 |
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| hyakuhei | Thanks bdpayne | 18:27 |
| nkinder | paulmo: I wanted to chat about security info for solum, but we can chat on -dev. | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | since hyakuhei started the meeting, I'll let him close it out | 18:28 |
| nkinder | thanks everyone! | 18:28 |
| hyakuhei | Ty everyone | 18:28 |
| hyakuhei | #endmeeting | 18:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:28 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 1 18:28:17 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:28 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-05-01-18.03.html | 18:28 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-05-01-18.03.txt | 18:28 |
| shohel02 | thanks | 18:28 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-05-01-18.03.log.html | 18:28 |
| malini1 | nkinder -- to make a simple password stonger, often times people use HMAC | 18:28 |
| hyakuhei | #woo no actions - apart from mine that I forgot to record ! | 18:28 |
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| bdpayne | yeah, it didn't let me record topics aparently either | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | oh well | 18:29 |
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| torandu | hm. either i got the time wrong or the meeting is cancelled... | 22:06 |
| torandu | no qa meeting? | 22:06 |
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