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| yamahata | hello! | 05:00 |
|---|---|---|
| s3wong | hello | 05:00 |
| vishwanathj | hi | 05:00 |
| SridharRamaswamy | Hi | 05:00 |
| yamahata | #startmeeting servicevm-device-manager | 05:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Oct 21 05:00:40 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 05:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 05:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager' | 05:00 |
| yamahata | today Bob is absent unfortunately | 05:01 |
| yamahata | #topic Announcement | 05:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcement (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:01 | |
| yamahata | summit schedule is available. but Neutron schedule isn't fixed at this moment. | 05:01 |
| yamahata | #link http://kilodesignsummit.sched.org/ | 05:01 |
| yamahata | #link https://openstacksummitnovember2014paris.sched.org/ | 05:02 |
| yamahata | any other announcement? | 05:02 |
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| SridharRamaswamy | yamahata: all: This is Sridhar Ramaswamy. I'd like to actively participate in Tacker going forward. | 05:04 |
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| yamahata | SridharRamaswamy: very cool. | 05:04 |
| s3wong | SridharRamaswamy: cool | 05:04 |
| SridharRamaswamy | s3wong: yamahata: thanks! | 05:05 |
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| yamahata | Will you go to paris? We are planning to have meeting(s) or BoF there. | 05:05 |
| SridharRamaswamy | I've met some of you in the last summit. Looking forward to meet you all in Paris | 05:05 |
| yamahata | I plan to discuss it later today. | 05:05 |
| SridharRamaswamy | yamahata: sounds good.. looking forward for the summit agenda for this subgroup | 05:06 |
| yamahata | #topic Action Items from the last week | 05:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action Items from the last week (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:07 | |
| yamahata | I contacted Karthik and he goes to Paris. Thesedays he has a conflict with this irc meeting. | 05:07 |
| yamahata | #topic summit logistics | 05:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "summit logistics (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:08 | |
| yamahata | I think we have enough people to have Bof/Meeting(s). | 05:08 |
| yamahata | The issues is when/where. | 05:08 |
| yamahata | According to schedule, neutron session taks place on Wed, Tue, Fri. | 05:09 |
| yamahata | Oops, Wed, thu, fir | 05:09 |
| yamahata | On Tuesday, cross project will take place. | 05:09 |
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| yamahata | On Monday, opendaylight session on morning. | 05:10 |
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| yamahata | For conference, Mainly session will take place on Mon, Tue(+ Wed morning) | 05:11 |
| yamahata | Do you have any preference for time? | 05:11 |
| yamahata | Probably another options would be morning or lunch time to avoid conflict | 05:12 |
| yamahata | Or evening before evening event. | 05:12 |
| SridharRamaswamy | yamahata: last time some of the BoF events like the NFV BoF took place around Lunch | 05:13 |
| s3wong | yamahata: also, today Steve Gordon talked about having a NFV subgroup BoF session | 05:13 |
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| yamahata | #link https://openstacksummitnovember2014paris.sched.org/event/f5bcb6033064494390342031e48747e3#.VEXnTnWUd1w win the telco BoF | 05:13 |
| yamahata | Sure, we'd like to avoid NFV related sessions/BoFs. | 05:14 |
| s3wong | yamahata: naturally :-) | 05:14 |
| SridharRamaswamy | agree | 05:14 |
| yamahata | #action yamahata create poll page like NFV | 05:15 |
| yamahata | Maybe monday evening sounds good candidate. Anyway I'll create arbitration page on doodle or somewhere | 05:16 |
| s3wong | yamahata: +1 | 05:16 |
| SridharRamaswamy | yamahata: will we have an etherpad for this project | 05:17 |
| yamahata | SridharRamaswamy: +1 good idea. | 05:17 |
| SridharRamaswamy | reuse the current one ? https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/servicevm | 05:17 |
| SridharRamaswamy | not sure about the convention | 05:18 |
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| yamahata | Added the section for logistics of Kilo summit | 05:20 |
| yamahata | #action anyone add possible date/room and topics | 05:20 |
| s3wong | yamahata: assuming we don't get a Neutron design summit, we should look to book a time for the Neutron pod | 05:21 |
| yamahata | s3wong: sure. Do you know how to do it? For now, I'm not sure about booking room/pod TBH | 05:22 |
| s3wong | yamahata: normally it is signing up when we are there | 05:22 |
| s3wong | yamahata: also, it makes sense, since we have enough interested participants, to send an email to the ML | 05:23 |
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| yamahata | s3wong: sounds reasonable. | 05:23 |
| s3wong | like how Steve Gorden does it with NFV BoF | 05:23 |
| yamahata | #action yamahata send an email to the ML on servicevm BoF/meeting | 05:24 |
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| yamahata | On Oct 28 next meeting, we would be fixing schedule | 05:25 |
| s3wong | yamahata: yes, it would be great to finalize schedule prior to the summit | 05:26 |
| yamahata | Okay, 3 mins left | 05:27 |
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| yamahata | #topic Open Discussion | 05:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:27 | |
| yamahata | anything else to discuss? | 05:28 |
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| yamahata | seems none. | 05:29 |
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| yamahata | thank you everyone. | 05:29 |
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| s3wong | thanks | 05:30 |
| yamahata | see you next week and in Paris the next-next week. | 05:30 |
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| SridharRamaswamy | thanks.. see you all next week | 05:30 |
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| vishwanathj | bye | 05:30 |
| yamahata | #endmeeting | 05:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 05:30 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Oct 21 05:30:46 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 05:30 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-10-21-05.00.html | 05:30 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-10-21-05.00.txt | 05:30 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-10-21-05.00.log.html | 05:30 |
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| nati_ueno | hi | 13:57 |
| rkukura | hi | 13:57 |
| mestery | nati_ueno: Yo! | 13:57 |
| jlibosva | hi | 13:57 |
| marun | hi! | 13:57 |
| marios_ | o/ | 13:57 |
| nati_ueno | mestery: yo! | 13:57 |
| jschwarz | hi! | 13:58 |
| obondarev_ | o/ | 13:58 |
| armax | Hi | 13:58 |
| yamahata | hi | 13:58 |
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| emagana | holas! | 14:00 |
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| Sukhdev | Hello | 14:00 |
| ihrachyshka | o/ | 14:00 |
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| carl_baldwin | hi | 14:00 |
| mestery | #startmeeting networking | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Oct 21 14:00:44 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:00 | |
| amotoki | hi | 14:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking' | 14:00 |
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| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings Agenda | 14:00 |
| mestery | #topic Announcements | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:01 | |
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| mestery | OpenStack Juno is out! Yay! | 14:01 |
| mestery | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-announce/2014-October/000295.html | 14:01 |
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| mestery | And with it is Neutron: | 14:01 |
| mestery | #link https://launchpad.net/neutron/juno/2014.2 | 14:01 |
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| mestery | Thanks to everyone for all your efforts for the past cycle. | 14:01 |
| mestery | I know it was rought at times, but we pulled through as a team. Nice work everyone! | 14:01 |
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| Sukhdev | Congrats to the team!!! | 14:02 |
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| amotoki | Thanks all!! | 14:02 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 14:02 |
| nati_ueno | Congrats! | 14:02 |
| * marios_ looks forward to raising a beer with folks in a couple weeks | 14:02 | |
| mestery | Now that Juno is out, the ball keeps moving forward: On to Kilo! | 14:02 |
| mestery | The Kilo release schedule is available on the wiki here: | 14:02 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kilo_Release_Schedule | 14:02 |
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| mestery | I also wanted to update folks that I'm working to settle on a mid-cycle location with the neutron-drivers team now. | 14:03 |
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| mestery | We should be able to announce that next week. | 14:03 |
| mestery | Stay tuned for more details! | 14:03 |
| emagana | wow.. summit in Vancouver! | 14:03 |
| mestery | emagana: Indeed, pretty awesome! | 14:03 |
| emagana | I just noticed that! | 14:03 |
| mestery | Any other announcements for the team? | 14:04 |
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| rkukura | mestery: I don’t see anything on the agenda regarding the kilo design summit. Can you explain how session topics are being chosen, and where we are in that process? | 14:04 |
| mestery | rkukura: Yes: We've had the public etherpad out there for the past 5 weeks, now that we've collected items there, the neutron-drivers team is putting the schedule together and it should be finalized by later this week. | 14:04 |
| mestery | We'll talk more about it next week during the meeting. | 14:04 |
| rkukura | oh, the drivers | 14:04 |
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| jschwarz | Regarding the release schedule, until when are we accepting new specs? when is the deadline to get them approved? | 14:05 |
| mestery | jschwarz: I haven't proposed SPD/SAD yet, but it will be much earlier than it was in Juno. | 14:05 |
| rkukura | mestery: ML2 has been working on input for this | 14:05 |
| mestery | Stay tuned, I'll have those dates next week. | 14:05 |
| jschwarz | ack, thanks | 14:05 |
| mestery | rkukura: We only have 11 slots this time, and 2 half day round table sessions. | 14:05 |
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| mestery | rkukura: We're constrained severly. If you have input which is not on the etherpad, please let mek now. | 14:06 |
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| mestery | OK, moving on in the agenda. | 14:06 |
| mestery | #topic Bugs | 14:06 |
| rkukura | mestery: there is way too much on the etherpad. We need an open process to narrow it down | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:06 | |
| mestery | #undo | 14:06 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x31aa2d0> | 14:06 |
| mestery | rkukura: Exactly, this was brought up many weeks ago in this very meeting, something from salv-orlando on the fact we had 20 years worth of work there. :) | 14:07 |
| marun | rkukura: I think the point of the drivers team is to provide leadership when it comes to choosing priorities. | 14:08 |
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| rkukura | I was expecting some communication as part of that process | 14:08 |
| marun | rkukura: I don't think anybody is preventing you from talking to the drivers team. | 14:08 |
| rkukura | let move on | 14:08 |
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| mestery | The communication is coming, yes. | 14:08 |
| amotoki | I agree the driver team make things more transparency and need to explain how the schedule is decided. | 14:08 |
| rkukura | Do they have an email list? | 14:09 |
| emagana | drivers team: Please, take into consideration cross functional work such Third-party CI and Documentation!!! | 14:09 |
| mestery | No email list, we're just normal people with addresses. | 14:09 |
| marun | rkukura: you have working relationships with all of them. Are you not able to use irc or the ml to raise issues? | 14:09 |
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| rkukura | I was not aware the drivers were determining the summit schedule. I should have guessed that. | 14:09 |
| marun | rkukura: ah, fair enough. | 14:10 |
| marun | rkukura: That raises a good point - that should have been communicated better. | 14:10 |
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| marun | rkukura: I thought it was, but if you're unaware you may not be the only one. | 14:11 |
| Sukhdev | I am assuming amotoki will be representing ML2 in the driver team when choosing priorities | 14:11 |
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| mestery | I don't think there is any representing a specific team, we're all representing Neutron, and not just the drivers team, but each one of us. | 14:12 |
| emagana | who are the drivers members again? | 14:12 |
| mestery | With all of that work proposed, the hard choices around what requires F2F time and can fill those 11 slots are usually made by the PTL. | 14:12 |
| mestery | Now with the drivers team we're spreading this load a bit, so it's a net win IMHO. | 14:13 |
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| Sukhdev | mestery: we have been discussing Kilo themes in ML2 meeting - | 14:13 |
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| mestery | Also, I hope everyone keeps this in mind: | 14:14 |
| mestery | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-October/047954.html | 14:14 |
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| mestery | Neutron priorities for Kilo, I sent this email weeks back | 14:14 |
| mestery | Just refreshing folks memory here | 14:14 |
| pc_m | emagana: #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Neutron-drivers | 14:14 |
| amotoki | mestery: can we have an IRC meeting dedicated for summit planning if necessary? we can explain what's discussed among the driver team and everyone have chance to input. | 14:14 |
| emagana | pc_m: Thanks! | 14:14 |
| mestery | amotoki: That's fine, lets do it during the drivers team slot this week,. | 14:14 |
| amotoki | weekly neutron meetng may be too short to discuss. | 14:14 |
| mestery | amotoki: +1 | 14:15 |
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| marun | amotoki: +1 | 14:15 |
| mestery | OK, we'll continue what should bea lively Summitt planning discussion on Wednesday during the Neutron drivers meeting. | 14:15 |
| * mestery notes everyone should bring plenty of rotten tomatoes | 14:15 | |
| mestery | #topic Bugs | 14:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:16 | |
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| marios_ | i spent some time poking at the criticals, for https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1381617 I'd be grateful for any input on my proposal there (will likely start trying that tomorrow) | 14:16 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1381617 in neutron "Check for FIP status in scenario tests cause instability in neutron gate jobs" [Critical,Confirmed] | 14:16 |
| mestery | I don't see our bug czar here, so I'm going to leave this open for bugs people want to discuss. | 14:16 |
| mestery | And marun beat me to it :) | 14:16 |
| mestery | marios_ | 14:16 |
| mestery | not marun | 14:16 |
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| marios_ | also for https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1323658 | 14:17 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1323658 in nova "Nova resize/restart results in guest ending up in inconsistent state with Neutron" [Critical,Confirmed] | 14:17 |
| marios_ | wondering if anyone has a good repro? | 14:17 |
| marios_ | logstash says it is indeed a thing. but can't hit it on my devstack box | 14:17 |
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| mestery | marios_: I used to be able to hit that one fairly regularly, but it's been a while. | 14:17 |
| markmcclain | didn't salv-orlando do some digging into this one | 14:17 |
| markmcclain | ? | 14:17 |
| mestery | That one has been around for a while. | 14:18 |
| mestery | markmcclain: Yes, he did | 14:18 |
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| armax | That last one bug is nasty | 14:18 |
| mestery | The findings are documented in the bug I believe | 14:18 |
| armax | I can help with the FIP one | 14:18 |
| marios_ | armax: yes thanks, my apologies i attributed your question to salvatore | 14:19 |
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| salv-orlando | there is no repro for that folks | 14:19 |
| marios_ | armax: (on the comment) | 14:19 |
| salv-orlando | I mean at least not one that you can easily reproduce. Mostly because it’s yet another bug with multiple root causes | 14:19 |
| armax | We are the Aliases of the same person | 14:19 |
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| armax | that's OK | 14:19 |
| armax | :) | 14:19 |
| salv-orlando | we slashed it when we pushed the fix for bug 1349617, then it periodically comes back. | 14:19 |
| marios_ | :) | 14:19 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1349617 in tempest "SSHException: Error reading SSH protocol banner[Errno 104] Connection reset by peer" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1349617 | 14:20 |
| glebo | lo. /me sorry bout being late | 14:20 |
| salv-orlando | troubles is that it’s not just the network. This bug basically means: I dd an action to my instance, and when it came back I was not able to access it anymore | 14:20 |
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| mestery | Any other bugs the team should be aware of today? | 14:21 |
| marios_ | i also looked at https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1274034 | 14:21 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1274034 in neutron "Neutron firewall anti-spoofing does not prevent ARP poisoning" [High,In progress] | 14:21 |
| amotoki | I would like to raise the ML thread: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack/2014-October/010055.html | 14:21 |
| marios_ | mestery: this one imo is a good 'technical debt' candidate and it has existing work | 14:21 |
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| amotoki | the one I raised is not a real bug, but it is worth mentioned in the release note and the docs. | 14:22 |
| marios_ | (Still marked 'in progress'. So the proper fix is to introduce ebtables. Some pushback in it being introduced here, perhaps needs to be stand alone etc) | 14:22 |
| marios_ | but the headline for that particular bug is "no tenant isolation in neutron" | 14:22 |
| mestery | marios_: Are you working with Juergen on that one? | 14:22 |
| marios_ | mestery: no i didn't get that far i saw recent work so assumed it was between dev cycles stalled | 14:22 |
| mestery | amotoki: Can you update the release notes with the output of that thread? That would be great! | 14:22 |
| mestery | marios_: The issue with that one was the gigantic patch which was proposed at the end of Juno. | 14:23 |
| marios_ | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OSSN/OSSN-0027 | 14:23 |
| amotoki | mestery: sure. I can cover the docs too. | 14:23 |
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| mestery | And the fact it needed to be refactored to work with both iptables and ipset I believe. | 14:23 |
| mestery | amotoki: Thanks! | 14:23 |
| glebo | "no tenant isolation in neutron" . That's a pretty rough pill to swallow for the operator community. | 14:23 |
| marios_ | mestery: yes that was my take-away from reading the various threads there | 14:23 |
| marios_ | glebo: yes of course. its of course a sensasionalist headline and is not all that bad | 14:23 |
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| marios_ | glebo: no sorry, it is pretty bad but not like the headline suggests :) | 14:24 |
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| mestery | marios_: Can you ping Jeurgen on this one and see where he's at with this? I'm concerned he hasn't popped up on the ML or meeting to discuss the solution here, nor has he worked with you on the ipset/iptables refactor to include the ebtables work here. | 14:24 |
| glebo | marios_: ha | 14:24 |
| marios_ | mestery: sure will make a note of that | 14:25 |
| mestery | marios_: Thanks! | 14:25 |
| mestery | OK, lets move on in the agenda then. | 14:26 |
| mestery | #topic Docs | 14:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Docs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:26 | |
| mestery | emagana: Hi there! | 14:26 |
| emagana | Hello! | 14:26 |
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| emagana | mestery: This morning I updated the wiki with some progress on the bugs related to Docs | 14:26 |
| mestery | emagana: Fantastic, thanks! | 14:26 |
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| amotoki | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings#Docs_.28emagana.29 | 14:27 |
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| mestery | emagana: Anything else on docs for this week? | 14:27 |
| emagana | I also notified the Docs team that is working on Networking the agreement of last week about having DVR and L3 HA as new features within the Docs | 14:27 |
| mestery | Very good! | 14:28 |
| emagana | mestery: Very few bugs have been opened by this team, we should review more the Documentation of our own staff!!! | 14:28 |
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| amotoki | emagana: will stable/juno on docs repo be cut about a month later? | 14:28 |
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| emagana | amotoki: Actually not all of them, for instance install guide is cut tomorrow | 14:29 |
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| emagana | the rest of the documentation will be | 14:29 |
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| amotoki | emagana: thanks. If we find docs bugs, let's fix them. | 14:29 |
| emagana | amotoki: Yes! | 14:30 |
| emagana | mestery: Nothing else! | 14:30 |
| mestery | emagana: Thank you sir! | 14:30 |
| mestery | OK, moving on. | 14:30 |
| emagana | mestery: }=) | 14:30 |
| mestery | #topic Non-NSX VMware Driver Discussion | 14:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Non-NSX VMware Driver Discussion (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:31 | |
| mestery | This may be a short topic | 14:31 |
| mestery | Since garyk isn't here :) | 14:31 |
| mestery | I had proposed to have this discussion during this slot as there are 3 BPs for non-NSX drivers in neutron-specs | 14:31 |
| mestery | And armax and garyk have been working to figure out overlap | 14:31 |
| salv-orlando | it’s funny I work for vmware and I hardly know what we’re talking about | 14:31 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: You must not talk to garyk much ;) | 14:31 |
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| armax | mestery: I’ll sync up with gary | 14:31 |
| mestery | armax: Yes, please do, and we can add this to next week's agenda if gary wants, since he proposed this to me. :) | 14:32 |
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| salv-orlando | mestery: we talk, but about other stuff | 14:32 |
| mestery | #topic Neutron Peer Review Process | 14:32 |
| armax | mestery: we need to figure out whether this stuff will live in neutron or outside | 14:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Neutron Peer Review Process (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:32 | |
| mestery | #undo | 14:32 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x31379d0> | 14:32 |
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| mestery | armax: Yes, that was one of gary's concerns too | 14:32 |
| mestery | And waht could be reused across the drivers, etc. | 14:32 |
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| armax | mestery: right, we’ll get it sorted this cycle | 14:33 |
| ihrachyshka | weren't we going to nuke all drivers from the tree? | 14:33 |
| mestery | armax: Cool, thanks! | 14:33 |
| armax | ihrachyshka: that remains to be discussed at the summit | 14:33 |
| mestery | ihrachyshka: We didn't say which tree this would live in ;) | 14:33 |
| armax | ihrachyshka: but if that was true, the moment is ripe for having the esx stuff happens out of tree | 14:33 |
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| armax | mestery, ihrachyshka: we’ll work that out this cycle | 14:34 |
| mestery | OK, thanks armax! | 14:34 |
| mestery | #topic Neutron Peer Review Process | 14:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Neutron Peer Review Process (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:34 | |
| mestery | Per last week's discussion, I'll be rolling this out this week. | 14:34 |
| glebo | ihrachyshka: thta's what I have been hearing consensus around, and maestry: I haven't really heard the "here's what we do now that they are out" plan | 14:34 |
| mestery | I'm close to having the Google Forms stuff sorted out, expect this to happen by tomorrow. | 14:35 |
| ihrachyshka | mestery: what's that process about? link? | 14:35 |
| mestery | I just wanted to note this in the meeting for folks. | 14:35 |
| mestery | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-peer-review | 14:35 |
| ihrachyshka | tnx | 14:35 |
| mestery | ihrachyshka: ^^^ | 14:35 |
| emagana | mestery: You are implementing a review process with just a couple of weeks of being annouced? | 14:35 |
| mestery | emagana: Indeed sir. If it takes people more than 10 minutes than they shoudl ask for help. :) | 14:36 |
| mestery | emagana: The idea is to collect the data before the Summit. | 14:36 |
| rkukura | ? | 14:36 |
| emagana | mestery: which data? I am confused, what are these google forms about exactly? | 14:36 |
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| mestery | Background was discussed last week during the meeting, emagana I think you were here even: | 14:38 |
| mestery | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2014/networking.2014-10-13-21.02.log.html | 14:38 |
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| glebo | mestery: the discussion on this topic last week was very good, and certainly there were several points of input and suggestion | 14:38 |
| glebo | I haven't seen much comment | 14:39 |
| glebo | on the etherpad about it yet | 14:39 |
| emagana | mestery: If everybody understands these forms and the reason behind them and the conclusion about last week I shut my mounth.. | 14:39 |
| mestery | glebo: Right, no one commented at all. | 14:39 |
| * glebo guilty for not commenting my review, as promised | 14:39 | |
| rkukura | emagana: I had no clue we were considering implementing this prior to the summit | 14:39 |
| * mestery notes no one commented on the etherpad after last week's meeting. | 14:39 | |
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| mestery | Did people just not have enough time? | 14:39 |
| glebo | but there are some pretty strong views about how this could be done effectively | 14:39 |
| glebo | mestery: for me, yes. | 14:40 |
| * Sukhdev I thought the discussion was to continue in this week's meeting | 14:40 | |
| glebo | I fully intend to review and comment with some of the input I gave in last week's mtg. | 14:40 |
| emagana | rkukura: Ni neither! but it seems mestery has made a decision | 14:40 |
| glebo | on the epad | 14:40 |
| jschwarz | I didn't see a ML thread about it and wasn't even aware this was in the works. Looks good btw | 14:40 |
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| amotoki | in my understand, the peer review proposed is our big challenge on how to manage a core team of a project. | 14:40 |
| emagana | Sukhdev: Same here but same comment that before! | 14:40 |
| mestery | Folks, I'm on IRC everyday,, all the time, I read email, etc. | 14:40 |
| mestery | Please don't be afraid to reach out to me | 14:40 |
| * glebo feels strongly that the process needs to be more open and less "closed network of hand picked reviewers" type of thing | 14:41 | |
| emagana | mestery: I am reaching you out now! In the right forum. What is wrong with that? | 14:41 |
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| glebo | too much oppty for things to go sideways, as currently stands | 14:41 |
| mestery | emagana: Nothing at all. | 14:41 |
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| mestery | In fact, I'm willing to delay this to address your concerns :) | 14:41 |
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| glebo | but, to reiterate, I'm 100% in support of a review process overall. GREAT leadership step | 14:41 |
| mestery | We have 19 minutes :P | 14:41 |
| mestery | glebo: Thanks. | 14:41 |
| amotoki | As etherpad says, the first round is a kind of trial. we are exploring the process. | 14:42 |
| mestery | amotoki is spot on. | 14:42 |
| markmcclain | glebo: I don't think that until the we've run a sample run that attempting at a wide scale is wise | 14:42 |
| emagana | mestery: It seems and I am not the only one confused about it. I am supportive of the peer review but I want to find more clarity. Please, tell me what to do? | 14:42 |
| mestery | emagana: How about this: Can you comment on that etherpad? We can also discuss now and in-channel today. | 14:42 |
| * marun wishes he hadn't joined this conversation late | 14:43 | |
| marun | I'm also confused as to why concerns weren't raised this past week. | 14:43 |
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| glebo | markmcclain: sorry, mark, attempting what? | 14:43 |
| emagana | mestery: Ok! | 14:43 |
| marun | It was made clear that feedback was appreciated. | 14:43 |
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| marun | And zero feedback was provided. | 14:43 |
| marun | What gives? | 14:43 |
| emagana | marun: +1 | 14:43 |
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| marun | If nobody actually cared, I could understand. | 14:43 |
| marun | But if you cared and didn't raise your voice, who's fault is that? | 14:44 |
| glebo | emagana: I also understood last week that the action item for those of us with input was to comment on epad, | 14:44 |
| markmcclain | glebo: wide feedback vs a smaller sample | 14:44 |
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| amotoki | the discussion just starts. if you have a question, don't hesitate to raise :-) | 14:44 |
| glebo | but I also think we need to promote and advertise this process a bit more on the mail list | 14:44 |
| mestery | Folks, I am obviously VERY OPEN to feedback, but when we ask for it and get none, that leads me to believe people are ok with what is proposed. | 14:44 |
| nati_ueno | I thought I did feedback, but I found actually I didn't. I'm +1 for this process. | 14:44 |
| marun | glebo: I'm curious as to what your stake in this, frankly. | 14:44 |
| glebo | mestery: how would u feel about a bit more advert on the ml? | 14:44 |
| marun | glebo: The point is to try to get feedback to the cores so they can improve. | 14:45 |
| emagana | marun: I care but I am also in the top of many things! CI, Docs and My current job! I am investing time on this meeting expressing my concerns and now I have been asked to spend more time in commenting in a different time | 14:45 |
| amotoki | emagana: you are leading cross project topics MUCH! | 14:45 |
| glebo | mestery: understandable reaction to a week of total silence. for me, just been busy. SHould have at least told u that so's u didn't take silence as consensus | 14:45 |
| emagana | marun: I find it unfair! | 14:45 |
| marun | emagana: why? | 14:45 |
| glebo | mestery: my bad | 14:45 |
| emagana | glebo: +1 I second that! | 14:46 |
| marun | So, you have concerns. | 14:46 |
| marun | And then stay silent. | 14:46 |
| marun | Must have been important concerns | 14:46 |
| marun | ? | 14:46 |
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| emagana | not silent just busy and I did not know it will be implemented right away! I am expresing concerns not believing that this is the right forum | 14:46 |
| marun | emagana: What exactly is your concern? | 14:47 |
| armax | could these concerns be so serious that they cannot be addressed while we see how this thing actually works in motion? | 14:47 |
| marun | emagana: It's a feedback mechanism. | 14:47 |
| * glebo thinks maybe for a step this big a two or three weeks is an acceptable comment period. | 14:47 | |
| mestery | marun: +1000 | 14:47 |
| emagana | mestery: I asked last week how much time was expected per week per core in NEutron, what was the response? | 14:47 |
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| marun | emagana: It's not a tool to push anyone off core. | 14:47 |
| mestery | emagana: The response is it's not something which we can document like that. | 14:47 |
| glebo | I just never expected the whole comment and discussion window to be 1 week long. And we all know what they say about when I assume... | 14:48 |
| mestery | emagana: It's different for each person, for each week, etc. | 14:48 |
| marun | emagana: If anyone of us is not meeting each other's expectations, that's just information. | 14:48 |
| marun | emagana: If the consensus is, we need to do more, we'll all know it. | 14:48 |
| marun | emagana: If the consensus is, we're doing enough or we can do less, we can decide that too. | 14:48 |
| emagana | marun: I understand that part and I agree with that, performance feedback is needed! | 14:48 |
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| marun | emagana: I'm still not clear on your concern, then. | 14:48 |
| emagana | mestery: But we all need to know the expectation! | 14:49 |
| marun | emagana: You are unwilling to have us all deliver feedback as to whether we are meeting each other's expectations? | 14:49 |
| mestery | emagana: Expecatation on what? How much time you need to spend reviewing patches? Specs? Interacting on IRC? I'm confused. | 14:49 |
| glebo | and the summary of my input is that the process needs to be more open, and more self selecting. i.e. | 14:49 |
| emagana | mestery: Yes, that is one of them | 14:49 |
| marun | emagana: If there is a perceived issue for any one of us, the goal is finding ways to get better. | 14:49 |
| marun | emagana: I'm not sure why that would be contentious. | 14:50 |
| mestery | emagana: Like I said, htere is no hard minimum or limit on that. | 14:50 |
| emagana | marun: I am open to feedback | 14:50 |
| amotoki | I understand there are several ways to contributing the community and core status motivates persons! | 14:50 |
| marun | emagana: I am having a hard time understanding your desire for 'a number of hours' | 14:50 |
| marun | emagana: Constructive participation is not something you can measure in hours. | 14:50 |
| marun | emagana: That's the whole point of the proposal... | 14:50 |
| glebo | if leaders are hand picking specific "in the club" other leaders to provide "unbiased performance reviews" then the tool is really just for leaders to get the opinions of people they want to listen to, and not to genuinely open up to community feedback | 14:51 |
| marun | emagana: To get a more holistic view of what we all think about being core. | 14:51 |
| marun | emagana: Rather than relying on numbers like review stats or number of hours. | 14:51 |
| glebo | that process is fine for a corp. It's laden with issues for an open community, like OpenSource or Standards | 14:51 |
| amotoki | emagana: there are many ways to express "community leadership". no worries. we know! | 14:51 |
| mestery | glebo: I don't follow that, and why would you think that's what's happening here? That's a baseless accusation which isn't adding anything to the discussion. | 14:51 |
| marun | glebo: Uh... | 14:51 |
| emagana | marun: Maybe I am overreacting here. I just want to be sure that peer review is well understood by everybody | 14:51 |
| marun | glebo: I'm having a hard time accepting your criticism. | 14:51 |
| mestery | glebo: Have you read the etherpad> | 14:51 |
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| mestery | ? | 14:51 |
| marun | glebo: Have you been reviewing code and I haven't noticed? | 14:52 |
| glebo | mestery: whoa, that was a pretty strong reaction, m. | 14:52 |
| mestery | glebo: Indeed, that was a strong accusation. | 14:52 |
| glebo | I don't recall making an accusation, least i didn't mean to, not in the least. | 14:52 |
| mestery | glebo: Please re-read the etherpad and comment there if you have concerns. | 14:52 |
| amotoki | I hope you all who are interested in this topics read the whole content on the epad. After reading the whole, you will see various metrix. | 14:52 |
| glebo | As stands, the process is that a leader hand picks people they trust to provide feedback on another person, no? | 14:52 |
| marun | glebo: We're a group of people who are overburdened. | 14:52 |
| marun | glebo: The goal is figuring out how to be more effective. | 14:52 |
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| marun | glebo: It's not something we intend to use to deny bonuses or promotion. | 14:53 |
| glebo | marun: 100% agree with that | 14:53 |
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| emagana | mestery: It is not my intention to slow down the progress of this excellent initiative! On the contrary I am onboard. With the caveat that I don't understand many things! | 14:53 |
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| mestery | glebo: Someone has to pick the reviewers, we'll iterate on this, but yes, initially it's the PTL. I'm sure you coudl see the issues with opening voting for who reviews who. | 14:53 |
| mestery | And eveyrone reviewing everyone isnt' scalable. | 14:53 |
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| nati_ueno | marun: oh I thought person with good score get some beers from PTL | 14:54 |
| marun | emagana: Feel free to ask questions, then. There are no secrets here. | 14:54 |
| glebo | marun: in the spirit of being more effective, is a small, closed group of reviewers the most effective, or is an open, provide feedback as you have interactions more effective? | 14:54 |
| emagana | marun: Is not what have been doing for the last 10 minutes? | 14:54 |
| glebo | marun: if we look at models that are WILDLY successful in the industry, | 14:54 |
| marun | glebo: uh. | 14:54 |
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| glebo | marun: the reputation systems are doing a FANTASTIC job of helping communities self police | 14:54 |
| marun | glebo: I don't know what you're talking about. | 14:55 |
| glebo | , and self guide and self shape behaviors in line with the goals of the system | 14:55 |
| glebo | marun: you've never heard of a reputation system? | 14:55 |
| marun | glebo: We have a reputation system. | 14:55 |
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| glebo | marun: every used ebay? | 14:55 |
| marun | glebo: ffs | 14:55 |
| * ihrachyshka noting: 5 mins left | 14:55 | |
| mestery | Folks | 14:56 |
| mestery | Lets move on from this now. | 14:56 |
| -amotoki- good reminder | 14:56 | |
| mestery | Please provide feedback on the etherpad | 14:56 |
| marun | glebo: You're seriously going to point to some kind of gamification to support an open source community. | 14:56 |
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| marun | glebo: Just stop. | 14:56 |
| mestery | And ML if you want. | 14:56 |
| armax | glebo: you mean, like LP karma points? | 14:56 |
| markmcclain | mestery: +1000 … Open Discussion please | 14:56 |
| glebo | marun: every read comments on a mobile app you were thinking about loading? | 14:56 |
| ihrachyshka | I don't see how discussion here moves the process forward. let's move to etherpad. | 14:56 |
| mestery | #topic Open Discussion | 14:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:56 | |
| mestery | Folks lets move on | 14:56 |
| mestery | We're degraded now. | 14:56 |
| marios_ | mestery: you mentioned opening up this week's drivers meeting (wednesday?) for the summit planning discussion. but i can't see time @ https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings or https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Neutron-drivers | 14:56 |
| * mestery looks | 14:56 | |
| markmcclain | 2pm UTC | 14:57 |
| mestery | marios_: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings#neutron-drivers_weekly_IRC_meeting | 14:57 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings#neutron-drivers_weekly_IRC_meeting | 14:57 |
| glebo | marun: u r way out of line, sir | 14:57 |
| mestery | glebo and marun: We've moved on, please discontinue this discussion. | 14:57 |
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| marios_ | mestery: markmcclain: thanks | 14:58 |
| ihrachyshka | I have one thing to note: during kilo, we need to migrate to multiple graduated oslo libraries, and the sooner the better, so I will appreciate if people start reviewing the following pieces. For the start, this patch and its two dependencies: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/127257/ (especially the policy thing that blocks several further patches) | 14:58 |
| mestery | Anything else here folks? | 14:58 |
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| * markmcclain needs to get better at TZ math | 14:58 | |
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| mestery | ihrachyshka: thanks for the reminder! I see amotoki has a similar patch for python-neutronclient as well. | 14:58 |
| ihrachyshka | markmcclain: google is great at it | 14:58 |
| rkukura | mestery: Please put a link the drivers meeting logs on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NeutronDrivers | 14:58 |
| markmcclain | ihrachyshka: thanks for working on this | 14:58 |
| ihrachyshka | mestery: yes, https://review.openstack.org/128896 | 14:59 |
| amotoki | I think ihrachyshka and me are in the same page. the policy one needs careful reviews. | 14:59 |
| mestery | rkukura: Ack | 14:59 |
| markmcclain | ihrachyshka: sadly I was trying to do math before drinking coffee… never ends well :) | 14:59 |
| ihrachyshka | amotoki: indeed it requires care, not a mechanical change | 14:59 |
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| mestery | OK folks, we're at the end. | 14:59 |
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| mestery | Hope to see folks back next week for another lively discussion! | 14:59 |
| mestery | Thanks! | 14:59 |
| mestery | #endmeeting | 14:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Oct 21 14:59:54 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2014/networking.2014-10-21-14.00.html | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2014/networking.2014-10-21-14.00.txt | 14:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2014/networking.2014-10-21-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
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| Sukhdev | markmcclain: the link says the driver meeting is at 1500 UTC - you mentioned 2pm UTC | 15:00 |
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| nati_ueno | bye | 15:00 |
| Sukhdev | thanks folks | 15:00 |
| amotoki | Sukhdev: 3pm is correct. | 15:00 |
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| markmcclain | Sukhdev: I was wrong… hence my comment on bad TZ math | 15:00 |
| Sukhdev | amotoki: Thanks for clarifying | 15:01 |
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| Sukhdev | markmcclain: BTW, that makes two of us I am terrible with TZ math as well - hence, have to always double check :-) | 15:01 |
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| edleafe | Are we having a Gantt meeting today? | 15:04 |
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| timello | o/ | 15:08 |
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| edleafe | timello: Looks like it's just us... | 15:10 |
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| timello | maybe n0ano is not around | 15:14 |
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| edleafe | Nor bauzas, I assume | 15:16 |
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| primeministerp | #startmeet openstack | 16:02 |
| primeministerp | #startmeet hyper-v | 16:02 |
| primeministerp | hmm | 16:03 |
| primeministerp | no bot today | 16:03 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: ping | 16:03 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti_: ping | 16:04 |
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| alexpilotti_ | hey there | 16:05 |
| ociuhandu | hi all :) | 16:05 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti_: ready? | 16:06 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti_: blueprint updates? | 16:06 |
| primeministerp | luis can't make it today | 16:07 |
| alexpilotti_ | yep | 16:07 |
| primeministerp | we can make it quick | 16:07 |
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| alexpilotti | topic? :-) | 16:07 |
| primeministerp | no bot | 16:07 |
| primeministerp | blueprint status? | 16:07 |
| alexpilotti | really? wow | 16:08 |
| primeministerp | #topic blueprints | 16:08 |
| alexpilotti | ok, listing BPs | 16:08 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: don't list them | 16:08 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: not worth it | 16:08 |
| primeministerp | w/o the bot | 16:08 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: you stated the proposed ones got accepted | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | in short: life is good | 16:09 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: good enough | 16:09 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: installer update? | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | 8 BPs approved | 16:09 |
| primeministerp | all on track for paris? | 16:09 |
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| alexpilotti | and 2 with specs which already had a +2 | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | Paris is all good | 16:09 |
| primeministerp | perfecto | 16:10 |
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| primeministerp | things are looking up on my end | 16:10 |
| primeministerp | too | 16:10 |
| primeministerp | ;) | 16:10 |
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| alexpilotti | heh | 16:10 |
| primeministerp | so on that note | 16:10 |
| primeministerp | I think we can end quick and reconvienne next week | 16:10 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: ociuhandu thx for the time | 16:11 |
| alexpilotti | see you! :) | 16:11 |
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| stevemar | o/ | 18:01 |
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| lbragstad | stevemar: \o | 18:01 |
| stevemar | keystones assemble! | 18:01 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:01 |
| dolphm | ayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods, amakarov, ajayaa, hogepodge, breton: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:01 |
| nkinder | o/ | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | that's getting to be a long list | 18:01 |
| raildo | o/ | 18:01 |
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| morganfainberg | O/ mobile:) | 18:01 |
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| bknudson | hi | 18:01 |
| gyee | \o | 18:01 |
| henrynash | top o’the day t’all | 18:01 |
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| topol | o/ | 18:01 |
| nonameentername | o/ | 18:01 |
| marekd | hello | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:01 |
| amakarov | hi | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Oct 21 18:01:51 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| lhcheng | hello | 18:01 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | so, morganfainberg asked me to skip the blueprint review for the moment, which is at the top of the agenda | 18:02 |
| dolphm | so i'm going to jump straight into nkinder's topic | 18:02 |
| dolphm | #topic Additional LDAP Attribute Mappings | 18:02 |
| rharwood | o/ | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Additional LDAP Attribute Mappings (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| dolphm | nkinder: o/ | 18:02 |
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| nonameentername | o/ | 18:02 |
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| nkinder | So a recent simple patch to update some doc comments in the config file uncovered some things I wanted to discuss | 18:03 |
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| nkinder | We need to determine how the additional LDAP attribute mapping code should work | 18:03 |
| nkinder | Let me grab some links... | 18:03 |
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| dolphm | nkinder: i was about to ask - the meeting agenda mentions "a change" in juno and icehouse, have a link to that specifically? | 18:04 |
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| nkinder | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1293698 | 18:04 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1293698 in keystone/icehouse "Can't map user description using LDAP" [Wishlist,Fix released] | 18:04 |
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| topol | nkinder whata dditional attrribute maapings are we missing? | 18:04 |
| nkinder | So that was a bug that was fixed in Juno and backported to stable/icehouse | 18:04 |
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| nkinder | Well, let's step back and talk about the purpose of the mappings | 18:04 |
| ayoung | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/118590/ | 18:04 |
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| nkinder | When creating an entry in LDAP, there are going to be certain required attributes based on the objectclass used | 18:05 |
| nkinder | So a user might require cn, sn, and uid | 18:05 |
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| nkinder | The LDAP entry requirements might hve more attributes that Keystone's definition of a user does (id,name,mail,description,enabled) | 18:06 |
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| henrynash | nkinder: so this if for R/W LDAP? | 18:06 |
| ayoung | nkinder, I'm wondering if this really should be LDAP specific. I could see an argument that a SQL backend, not the one managed by Keystone, could be used for Authentication as well, like the mod_authn_mysql approach | 18:06 |
| nkinder | henrynash: Yes, exactly | 18:06 |
| ayoung | and in that case, it might have this same restriction | 18:06 |
| nkinder | ayoung: don't cloud matters here (yet) | 18:06 |
| ayoung | well, it does argue that both should be done via the same mapping mechanism as we are using for Federation | 18:06 |
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| ayoung | andthat ties in with the LDAP rewrite that bknudson wants to do | 18:07 |
| ayoung | right bknudson ? | 18:07 |
| ayoung | Heh | 18:07 |
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| morganfainberg | This is an artifact of keeping r/o and rw leap the same driver. It sounds like. | 18:07 |
| gyee | are the non-standard attributes got stashed into 'extra' when it returns? | 18:07 |
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| nkinder | so if Keystone needs to create a user in LDAP for the R/W case, we might need to supply some additional attributes to satisfy the objectclass requirements | 18:07 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, its a non issue for r/o | 18:07 |
| bknudson | ayoung: it might be better to use middleware for r/o LDAP rather than what we're doing. | 18:07 |
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| gyee | so as long as we don't break the API spec we should be fine | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | Right. In. R/w config we could provide a schema | 18:07 |
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| bknudson | ayoung: it is an issue for r/o ldap. The change that I made to fix the bug was only for reading... write wasn't involved. | 18:08 |
| ayoung | bknudson, additional attribute mapping? | 18:08 |
| topol | I thought r/w LDAP had serialization issues | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | And not be constrained by ldap schema requirements like this. | 18:08 |
| bknudson | ayoung: yes, in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/81041/6/keystone/tests/test_backend_ldap.py | 18:08 |
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| nkinder | yes, bknudson is correct | 18:08 |
| bknudson | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/81041/6/keystone/common/ldap/core.py | 18:08 |
| nkinder | So, back to the main issue... | 18:08 |
| bknudson | r/w ldap isn't all that interesting imo. | 18:09 |
| nkinder | The additional mapping code was designed to only be used when adding a new entry to LDAP (for the objectclass requirements I mentioned) | 18:09 |
| topol | bknudson+++ | 18:09 |
| bknudson | other than it makes our impl more complicated. | 18:09 |
| ayoung | bknudson, that is not an "additional attribute" but rather a core attribute | 18:09 |
| ayoung | description is a required field | 18:09 |
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| nkinder | The fix that bknudson made causes us to pull in any other LDAP attribute and map it to on-the-fly additional attributes in the keystone user object | 18:10 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:10 |
| nkinder | This leads towards things like adding "employeeNumber" to a keystone user object, which is returned by a user get | 18:10 |
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| nkinder | I really think that's the wrong direction | 18:10 |
| gyee | return in where? 'extra'? | 18:10 |
| ayoung | right, which is why the check was there in the first place | 18:10 |
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| dolphm | gyee: extra is not an API attribute | 18:11 |
| nkinder | It starts to promote keystone as a general user/group management solutiuon (which it's not) | 18:11 |
| gyee | dolphm, it we return employeeId in user ref, we would break the API spec isn't it? | 18:11 |
| lbragstad | we're trying to move away from that | 18:11 |
| dolphm | gyee: no, that would be backwards compatible, but also useless | 18:11 |
| ayoung | ldap_attr, attr_map = item.split(':') was supposed to be a reverse mapping, from the LDAP attribute to the Keystone, if I recall correctly | 18:12 |
| dolphm | nkinder: yeah, none of that stuff is necessary for openstack | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | nkinder: ++ | 18:12 |
| nkinder | So, I'd like to rip it out | 18:12 |
| nkinder | The question is is we need tpo go through a deprecation cycle | 18:12 |
| jamielennox | you want to rip out the entire concept of having 'extra' data for users? or just the LDAP bit/ | 18:13 |
| nkinder | bknudson and I had some discussion on this here - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/118590/18/keystone/tests/test_backend_ldap.py | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | nkinder, i think there is a better way - avoiding breaking people | 18:13 |
| jsavak | other openstack services enable meta data (see http://docs.openstack.org/admin-guide-cloud/content/section_metadata-service.html) which contains stuff not exactly necessary for openstack but helps with integration & user experience | 18:13 |
| * morganfainberg is back to desk | 18:13 | |
| nkinder | jamielennox: I think we need to leave it in for the "create" case only | 18:13 |
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| nkinder | jamielennox: or come up with a suitable replacement | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | nkinder, i think this is where we look at splitting r/w ldap from r/o | 18:13 |
| dolphm | nkinder: can you clarify what you want to rip out? | 18:13 |
| dolphm | nkinder: a patch would be ideal :P | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | we can then really optimise the r/o ldap [most people don't use r/w] | 18:13 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:14 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: +++ | 18:14 |
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| henrynash | morganfainberq: + * shoesize | 18:14 |
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| gyee | heh | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | the r/w ldap can start looking like something we can migrate to a custom schema being provided as well | 18:14 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, the code that does this kind of logic is core to LDAP. I really don't think splitting the driver will fundamentally help. | 18:14 |
| bknudson | I guess the question is do we need a solution for Juno? | 18:14 |
| dolphm | henrynash wins | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | which then *solve* the extra attr wierdness | 18:14 |
| dolphm | (i did the math) | 18:14 |
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| bknudson | and I would assume that changing the functionality for juno isn't going to be possible | 18:14 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, thats the point of my recommendation | 18:15 |
| henrynash | dolphm: you know that they say big shoes big….. | 18:15 |
| henrynash | dolphm: feet | 18:15 |
| bknudson | right, so I think morganfainberg and others are saying rather than a patch we want to rewrite ldap | 18:15 |
| gyee | you really have to go there? | 18:15 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, exactly | 18:15 |
| nkinder | dolphm: searching for the link... | 18:15 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, and that is because we are going to have a hard time "fixing" juno. so to speak | 18:15 |
| ayoung | bknudson, what criteria are we going to use for the new design? | 18:16 |
| henrynash | sl | 18:16 |
| lbragstad | so we are still going to keep r/o ldaP, right? | 18:16 |
| jamielennox_ | we've hated the 'extra' stuff in the API for a while now though - is it time we can put it in aflag and kill it off? | 18:16 |
| dolphm | lbragstad: yes | 18:16 |
| nkinder | #link https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/keystone/commit/?id=ebfdab034f2b35074f1645b70c1f07d0c4dfd337 | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i was even open to looking at SSSD as a migration path. | 18:16 |
| ayoung | we can't kill r/w LDAP, can we? | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, among other options. | 18:16 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox_: we're pretty close to being able to do that with jsonschema validation | 18:16 |
| ayoung | I'm assuming that even if Identity is read only WRT LDAP, assignment needs to be R/W | 18:17 |
| dolphm | jamielennox_: a bunch of booleans get flipped and you raise 400's everwhere | 18:17 |
| henrynash | so what’s the argument *against* creating two ldap backends….other than we’d want to try and make the common code shared | 18:17 |
| lbragstad | jamielennox_: right now we allow additionalAttributes on requests. | 18:17 |
| jamielennox_ | dolphm: kind of, we're not changing the schema with jsonschema at all | 18:17 |
| henrynash | (one r/o, one r/w) | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | we can't kill it, we can work to make most deployments better. and if we're able to convince the hold outs that there are better options (read: split Identity into it's own API that can manage LDAP w/ a schema and a migration path) down the line, we could make r/o ldap the *only* keystone deployment mode that we care about from assignmenty | 18:17 |
| dolphm | lbragstad: additionalAttributes=False ftw | 18:17 |
| ayoung | jsavak, you guys use LDAP for Identity in R/W or R/O mode? | 18:17 |
| jamielennox_ | dolphm: ++ | 18:17 |
| lbragstad | dolphm: yep | 18:17 |
| jsavak | ayoung r/w | 18:17 |
| jsavak | for now | 18:17 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, and i'd like that option *across* the board | 18:18 |
| nkinder | dolphm: it's pretty much backing out the fixes for https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1293698 (with the exception of introducing a new config setting to allow mapping of the description attr) | 18:18 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1293698 in keystone/icehouse "Can't map user description using LDAP" [Wishlist,Fix released] | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | don't want it in sql either. | 18:18 |
| ayoung | jsavak, thanks | 18:18 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: yeah, i'd want one global control for that | 18:18 |
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| dolphm | strict_api = true # the new defaultness | 18:18 |
| jamielennox_ | yea, this doesn't work if it's backend specific | 18:18 |
| ayoung | LDAP has a very nice replication story, which makes it the preferred multi-site Identity solution | 18:18 |
| ayoung | Lets not do this | 18:18 |
| bknudson | so what if we were to split out the identity provider into its own service? | 18:18 |
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| ayoung | leave LDAP as a single driver | 18:19 |
| ayoung | lets fix what is broken with it | 18:19 |
| bknudson | then the identity part can evolve in its own way (become a full user solution) and keystone can keep evolving with federation | 18:19 |
| lbragstad | bknudson: I think gyee had a nice list at the summit on that process? | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | so, how likely is it someone is going to use the new functionality that bknudson 's patch provided? | 18:19 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, that is fine, again except for CERN and Assignments in LDAP | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i am thinking that is the long term goal | 18:20 |
| topol | whatever we do please lets end up with a better user experience and not a worse user experience in the next release | 18:20 |
| ayoung | But.... | 18:20 |
| gyee | ++ for identity separation | 18:20 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: one of our products requested the fix... not sure if they're using it or not. | 18:20 |
| nkinder | morganfainberg: I think it's pretty unlikely since you can't use the keystone or openstack CLI to actually see those additional attributes | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, then i think we can't *fix* this, we shipped it. | 18:20 |
| ayoung | and that is, I think, a mess worth addressing in its own right | 18:20 |
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| jamielennox_ | gyee: ++ you were keen on it in atlanta - did you ever get anywhere? | 18:20 |
| nkinder | bknudson: I think they needed to map the description attribute though, right? | 18:20 |
| nkinder | bknudson: that part is valid | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | nkinder, cli isn't that important on that front. | 18:20 |
| bknudson | these products don't use the cli. | 18:20 |
| dolphm | bknudson: the bug report is just for description | 18:20 |
| gyee | jamielennox_, haven't found the time | 18:20 |
| jamielennox_ | gyee: thought so | 18:21 |
| ayoung | the issue with LDAP assignment, though, is that it assumes it is in the same LDAP server as identity. Can we change that without breaking it? We don't have LDAP migrations | 18:21 |
| nkinder | bknudson: The fact that we had no config setting to allow that led to an attempt to use the additional mappings to map the description attribute | 18:21 |
| dolphm | bknudson: http api, then, i hope? | 18:21 |
| bknudson | dolphm: yes, they use the REST API. | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | my concern is we shipped this capability. *waves hands* implicit contract *more hand waving* | 18:21 |
| topol | user experience *waves hand* | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | topol, shhh :) | 18:21 |
| * jsavak waves back | 18:21 | |
| jamielennox_ | topol: i'm not sure we ever shipped that | 18:22 |
| * gyee wave his fingers | 18:22 | |
| topol | breaking contract kills user experience | 18:22 |
| ayoung | If we can make the LDAP assignment case work without breaking things, I think having Identity as a separate service from Assignment would work fine | 18:22 |
| nkinder | gyee: how many fingers....? | 18:22 |
| gyee | ha | 18:22 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, i think we can avoid breaking that. it's a *very* special case. | 18:22 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, and...I think we can actually do that. So long as they both talk to the same LDAP, assignemtn should be fine with Identity in a separate service | 18:23 |
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| nkinder | bknudson: would you be able to find out if the driver for that fix was only the need to map the description attribute? | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | i think we need to know how many people actually use ldap assignment, if it's just cern... I am happy to say lets work with them to help them out [if there is anything we can do to make life better for them] | 18:23 |
| ayoung | its little things like assuming the "pointers" to users is the users DN in the members attribute of the Role | 18:23 |
| bknudson | nkinder: I'll find out and get back to you. | 18:23 |
| nkinder | bknudson: thanks | 18:24 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, lets assume it is CERN plus one other site that we won't ever hear from unless we break it | 18:24 |
| ayoung | but we'd hear from CERN first anyway | 18:25 |
| dolphm | marekd: you're up ^ | 18:25 |
| bknudson | move it into stackforge. | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, that was kindof the next thought i had. | 18:25 |
| bknudson | I don't think it's even tested by tempest | 18:25 |
| marekd | dolphm: yep, but for ldap matters you'd better hit jose. | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | but we need to make our internal API a stable contract then. | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | i think we should be moving that direction | 18:26 |
| dolphm | marekd: doesn't look like he's on now, right? | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | but it is an added concern | 18:26 |
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| ayoung | Ugh...LDAP works. Why break it. These are minute deatils. | 18:26 |
| ayoung | details even | 18:26 |
| marekd | dolphm: i doubt it. | 18:26 |
| jamielennox_ | morganfainberg: i don't think this is an internal API right? it'd be some sort of federated deal | 18:26 |
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| morganfainberg | jamielennox_, identity_api | 18:26 |
| breton | hi. Sorry, I'm late. | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox_, assignment_api | 18:26 |
| ayoung | Cern would be OK with Identity in a separate service | 18:26 |
| ayoung | they need LDAP due to scale and replication | 18:26 |
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| marekd | ayoung: through 'federation | 18:26 |
| marekd | ' ? | 18:27 |
| ayoung | marekd, yep | 18:27 |
| marekd | ayoung: yes, that would rather be fine | 18:27 |
| gyee | ayoung, separate identity service back by LDAP make a lot of sense | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | the other *big* win about moving identity to a separate service we can explicitly avoid PII data leakage into openstack | 18:27 |
| ayoung | marekd, its rather the assignment side in LDAP that is the sticking point | 18:27 |
| ayoung | and Rack using LDAP in R/W mode | 18:27 |
| jsavak | morganfainberg +1 | 18:27 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: =D | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | never ask for the data (which is a very very large win hooking up to a corp ldap or even in rax use case) | 18:27 |
| ayoung | pretty sure CERN is using AD for LDAP, and not writing user data into it...due to the whole additional_attributes issue | 18:27 |
| topol | morganfainberg great point!!! | 18:28 |
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| marekd | ayoung: afair we use ro ldap. | 18:28 |
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| morganfainberg | and then r/w for ldap assignment marekd ? | 18:29 |
| amakarov | marekd, some still use rw | 18:29 |
| ayoung | marekd, except for role assignments | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | nkinder, unfortunately, i realyl don't think we can back out bknudson's change [even parts of it]. i want to get back on topic | 18:30 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ayoung: i don't work on that so i'd better not talk too much as i may simply lie to you. I don't know detailed ocnfiguration | 18:30 |
| ayoung | LDAP follows the two laws of thermo-dynamics. 1. We can't win, the best we can do is break even. 2. We can't break even. | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | nkinder, we shipped it, i am sure we're going to run into bad (very bad) UX issues if we do. | 18:30 |
| nkinder | morganfainberg: do we want to deprecate it though? | 18:30 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ayoung: we had some constraints when openstack was deployed and some parts are non standard. | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | nkinder, because someone is going to use it in Juno "cause it's there" | 18:30 |
| ayoung | maybe? | 18:31 |
| bknudson | So what I'm not sure about is what is the bug that's being fixed now? | 18:31 |
| dolphm | and juno will be supported for a long while | 18:31 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, I think we can limit the LDAP fetch to the attributes we know about | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | nkinder, i think we need to say "HEY DONT DO THIS" but i am very concerned about removing it. i think we should work on the overall UX and as we improve identity use cases it might fall to the wayside with better options | 18:31 |
| ayoung | never fetch all attributes | 18:31 |
| bknudson | Here's the bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1336769 | 18:31 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1336769 in keystone "LDAP additional attribute mappings description do not specify that they are for creation only" [Low,In progress] | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, thats fine. only fetch "known" attributes, that is a change i think we can get away with (classify it as a backport and get it in stable asap) | 18:31 |
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| nkinder | morganfainberg: ok, makes sense. I just don't want to see it expanded to start covering update operations, CLI changes to show additional attrs, etc. | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | but we can't rip all of it out | 18:32 |
| ayoung | that would be a change on get and list... | 18:32 |
| bknudson | but we still support additional attributes in SQL? | 18:33 |
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| bknudson | why is sql / ldap special? | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i think we should put a toggle in to disable that. | 18:33 |
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| bknudson | clients don't know what the backend is so they don't know what will be accepted or rejected. | 18:33 |
| lbragstad | toggle or deprecate and move towards not supporting additional attributes? | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | lbragstad, thats my thought | 18:33 |
| nkinder | lbragstad++ | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | lbragstad, or come up with a better story for it | 18:34 |
| * topol getting depressed. thought we had LDAP integration covered a few releaseas ago :-) | 18:34 | |
| bknudson | I'd rather we moved towards moving identity into its own service | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | as in.. identity split, look at shipping a schema that can support extra attrs | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | for ldap | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | sql can stay the same | 18:34 |
| bknudson | then we can deprecate identity in keystone | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | r/o ldap .. hah no updates anyway who cares. | 18:34 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: so we will need to signal that strongly if we take that approach…I know of a number of products that rely on storing additional attributes with users, for instance | 18:34 |
| jamielennox_ | i think even in a new service we don't expose extra mappings - i don't think they are a benefit as no other service can rely on them anyway | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, it should be easy to proxy keystone identity -> new service [i'd do it in middleware] | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, yes. | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox_, in new service if there is a *real* demand for it we can make it really work, not be a weird bolt-on | 18:35 |
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| morganfainberg | jamielennox_, the issue is we're trying to make 2 use cases work in a "standard" schema way in LDAP, if we're doing read-write ldap, we are in our rights to say "use our schema" which would solve that issue rather than needing to do custom weird mappings | 18:36 |
| dstanek | when we say new service we are talking about another executable running on another port right? | 18:36 |
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| bknudson | dstanek: yes | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, yes. | 18:36 |
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| morganfainberg | jamielennox_, making read-only ldap and r/w ldap work like they do has resulted in compromises on both sides. | 18:37 |
| ayoung | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/keystone/tree/keystone/common/ldap/core.py#n1426 | 18:37 |
| ayoung | doesn't look like it takes an attribute list | 18:37 |
| jamielennox_ | morganfainberg: would be a discussion for if and when we get it split | 18:37 |
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| morganfainberg | jamielennox_, yes. it would be a "if we need this, we can really support it" vs. "oh this hack to make it work" | 18:37 |
| jamielennox_ | but i'd say lowest common denominator - and it's very low | 18:37 |
| ayoung | but http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/keystone/tree/keystone/common/ldap/core.py#n1438 sure enough, it does. | 18:37 |
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| morganfainberg | dstanek, and if you don't support read/write identity in theory you could avoid running it all together [something to explore] | 18:38 |
| ayoung | nkinder, so, how are we returning values other than those that are explicitly mapped? I don't see it | 18:38 |
| nkinder | ayoung: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/keystone/tree/keystone/common/ldap/core.py#n1459 | 18:38 |
| nkinder | ayoung: those are the additional mapped attributes | 18:38 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: i'd love to see a good write up on what the proposed split looks like - architecturally it just seems like it will complicate things | 18:39 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: do you mean in terms of shoving them into the user object on the keystone side? | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, fair enough. | 18:39 |
| bknudson | dstanek: the goal is to eventually simplify by using federation for all users. | 18:39 |
| ayoung | nkinder, so they have to be explicitly added in order to be fetched, right? | 18:39 |
| nkinder | ayoung: probably best to discuss more after the meeting | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ | 18:39 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:39 |
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| dolphm | (20 min left) | 18:40 |
| ayoung | 1.2.1 Review of Keystone Blueprints for "Trivial" Status ? | 18:40 |
| dstanek | bknudson: that i like; i guess the split is fuzzy to me | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, skip till next week. | 18:40 |
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| ayoung | Deal | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i'm still cleaning up the bp list | 18:41 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: schedule then? | 18:41 |
| dstanek | bknudson: 2 ports -> 1 port and back to 2 | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, just a note: review the schedule, let me know if there are any issues with time/descriptions/etc | 18:41 |
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| dolphm | #topic Tentative Schedule on Sched.org for Kilo Design summit | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | or if we *want* to drop one of the sessions | 18:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tentative Schedule on Sched.org for Kilo Design summit (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:41 | |
| dolphm | #link http://kilodesignsummit.sched.org/type/keystone | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | please review it | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | let me know if anything is "wrong" | 18:41 |
| bknudson | do other projects have their schedules? | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | we might get a session back | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | depending on the "ops summit" stuff | 18:42 |
| dolphm | bknudson: http://kilodesignsummit.sched.org/ | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | if we get a dedicated session back i'll swap our ops one over to ops summit and add the split identity (seems like a reasonable topic) in it's place? | 18:42 |
| dolphm | lots of TBD slots | 18:42 |
| ayoung | hard to say without http://kilodesignsummit.sched.org/type/horizon | 18:43 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, the horizon session right before our SSO one should be a cross-project session too | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, already talked to david-lyle about that | 18:43 |
| ayoung | I know of at least three things that will need Horizon buy in | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | and our SSO one will have horizon folks at it (it doesn't overlap with their sessions) | 18:43 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, jamielennox_ and I have been discussing the KC DOA integration, too | 18:44 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:44 |
| ayoung | Horizon right now is the limiting factor on a lot of the stuff we do | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | so in short, keep your eyes on the schedule, let me know if anything needs to be changed (i'm also looking) | 18:44 |
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| morganfainberg | it doesn't have to be during this irc meeting :) | 18:44 |
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| bknudson | we shouldn't have to design anything around horizon | 18:45 |
| dolphm | hopefully by friday this schedule will be totally fleshed out, so everyone should check in later this week and look for conflicts (plan your days!) | 18:45 |
| bknudson | just use the standard rest stuff and any client can use it | 18:45 |
| bknudson | horizon isn't the only UI | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, in an ideal world, but we should make sure our APIs make sense for horizon and/or provide them any support they need | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | other UIs will likely benefit | 18:45 |
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| topol | are stuff really needs to work with horizon. its embarassing when it doesnt | 18:46 |
| lhcheng | morganfainberg ++ | 18:46 |
| bknudson | well, let's not assume everyone is using django | 18:46 |
| * topol *User experience* | 18:46 | |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:46 |
| gyee | bkundson, API and UX, Horizon is just a side-effect :) | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, DoA is only one mechanism. | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | this is more about "do our REST APIs work for this, if not, what needs to change" | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | not "how do we make DOA work" | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | that former topic can be in the horizon side of the session(s) | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | erm latter | 18:47 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, speaking of which, ain't they just form a API working group or something? | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, yes. there is a thread on ML on the meeting(s) | 18:47 |
| stevemar | gyee, meetings are thursdays at 0000 utc (likely) for api working group | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-October/048144.html | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | it's long | 18:48 |
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| gyee | I am guessing we'll have to throw in our fifty cents | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | yes | 18:48 |
| bknudson | here comes v4. | 18:48 |
| gyee | stevemar, thanks | 18:48 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, unlikely. | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, microversioning [yes] | 18:49 |
| gyee | ya think? :) | 18:49 |
| lbragstad | stevemar: gyee in #openstack-meeting-3 | 18:49 |
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| morganfainberg | but v3 has been enough hassle to get support, lets not do v4... ever* ... [ *= anytime soon ] | 18:49 |
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| bknudson | we keep changing the api but we don't ever update the version, even minor version. | 18:49 |
| jamielennox_ | i'm sceptical that microversioning will work, we've not successully actually removed any api calls | 18:50 |
| bknudson | at least in a way that clients can get at | 18:50 |
| gyee | lbragstad, thanks, on my cal now | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i think we need to solve that. but i don't think we can major version rev. | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, tbh. | 18:50 |
| bknudson | jamielennox_: they really don't seem to be thinking about the APIs. | 18:50 |
| jamielennox_ | bknudson: found that today - a whole bunch of my session stuff assumed that i could rely on the minor version | 18:50 |
| jamielennox_ | bknudson: what are they thinking then? | 18:50 |
| lbragstad | gyee: #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/API_Working_Group | 18:51 |
| bknudson | jamielennox_: they're thinking about how to implement it in the server | 18:51 |
| ayoung | accepts header with the micro version? | 18:51 |
| jamielennox_ | by a whole bunch i have a couple of calls that i know don't exist in early versions of keystone so i can not make the call if the minor version is correct | 18:51 |
| bknudson | I meant they're not thinking about the python sdks. | 18:51 |
| dolphm | jamielennox_: that should be a safe client side behavior | 18:51 |
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| jamielennox_ | dolphm: yet i checked and we still advertise v3.0 | 18:52 |
| jamielennox_ | but don't change that cause we'll break auth_token | 18:52 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox_: oooh, right. | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | so, lets rev the minor version per release | 18:52 |
| * jamielennox_ needs a holiday | 18:52 | |
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| morganfainberg | simple for now. | 18:52 |
| dolphm | jamielennox_: auth_token needs a patch asap :( | 18:52 |
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| ayoung | lets open a bug in Auth token saying v 3.X at least | 18:52 |
| dstanek | jamielennox_: this highlights the problem we have in general - we don't advertise capabiltiies in our APIs yet | 18:52 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: we do, in the api doc | 18:52 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: but auth_token is hardcoded to look for .0 | 18:52 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: so the server has been stuck for several releases | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, sure, but we need to fix the server too. | 18:52 |
| bknudson | that's what json-home can do | 18:53 |
| dolphm | advertising .0 | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | yay json-home! | 18:53 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:53 |
| ayoung | version >= 3.0 && version < 4.0 | 18:53 |
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| * ayoung opening bug now | 18:53 | |
| jamielennox_ | morganfainberg: so the auth_version param in auth_token only checks that the value is v3.0, and so it will revert to v2 if we update the minor version :'( | 18:53 |
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| morganfainberg | jamielennox_, so lets fix that | 18:53 |
| lbragstad | ~ 7 minutes left | 18:53 |
| jamielennox_ | morganfainberg: yea, was looking at it just a few hours ago | 18:53 |
| gyee | ouch | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox_, i'm willing to cut a new middleware *asap* if we get that fixed to do like 3.0 <= KS API version <= 4.0 | 18:54 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: there's a revert that should get in before a new middleware | 18:54 |
| ayoung | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystonemiddleware/+bug/1383853 | 18:54 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1383853 in keystonemiddleware "auth_token middleware hard coded to check for version 3.0" [Undecided,New] | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, lets make sure it lands then. | 18:54 |
| bknudson | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/129551/ is the revert (from jamielennox_ ). | 18:55 |
| bknudson | jamielennox_ is going to fix it for real. | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, +3 on that one | 18:55 |
| jamielennox_ | i've been looking at it this afternoon and it's a PITA but it'll work somehow | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, easy sell since there wasn't a realse with it | 18:56 |
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| morganfainberg | oh, last quick note: Check for untriaged bugs - please triage them if you can | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | i'll run the report to the #openstack-keystone channel here post meeting. | 18:57 |
| * morganfainberg hasn't setup a cron job for this yet | 18:57 | |
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| dolphm | \o/ | 18:59 |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 18:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Oct 21 18:59:18 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-10-21-18.01.html | 18:59 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-10-21-18.01.txt | 18:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-10-21-18.01.log.html | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, thanks for chairing the meeitng today | 18:59 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: of course | 18:59 |
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| jeblair | infra folks? | 19:00 |
| anteaya | o/ | 19:00 |
| wenlock | o/ | 19:00 |
| fungi | i think so! | 19:00 |
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| mmedvede | o/ | 19:00 |
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| krotscheck | wat? | 19:00 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Oct 21 19:00:44 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:00 | |
| ianw | go giants | 19:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:00 |
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| AJaeger_ | o/ | 19:00 |
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| jeblair | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-10-14-19.03.html | 19:01 |
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| jhesketh | Morning | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| anteaya | jhesketh: yay | 19:01 |
| jeblair | ACTION: pleia2 to create etherpad with infra-facing pros/cons on zanata vs pootle | 19:01 |
| anteaya | she is on a plane | 19:01 |
| jeblair | neat | 19:01 |
| AJaeger_ | was done | 19:01 |
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| anteaya | I think this and a ml thread are in progress | 19:02 |
| clarkb | o/ | 19:02 |
| AJaeger_ | anteaya: correct | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| jeblair | swift logs | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/swift_logs_next_steps | 19:02 |
| jeblair | jhesketh: can you link your blog post? | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | ah, is in etherpad | 19:03 |
| jhesketh | http://josh.people.rcbops.com/2014/10/openstack-infrastructure-swift-logs-and-performance/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #link http://josh.people.rcbops.com/2014/10/openstack-infrastructure-swift-logs-and-performance/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | i have not had a chance to read it yet | 19:03 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | it looks like it will be very informative :) | 19:03 |
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| krtaylor | o/ | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | it makes my firefox slow | 19:04 |
| anteaya | mine too | 19:04 |
| anteaya | I didn't want to say anything though | 19:04 |
| anteaya | because tables and graphs | 19:04 |
| jhesketh | All good. I don't have a lot more to add. I think my conclusion is let's keep moving with switching things over but I want other input | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | jhesketh: you had some ideas for what might be causing some slowness (authn issues was one, i think?) | 19:05 |
| jhesketh | Heh, yeah, I had to make all those graphs in Firefox. Sorry. :-( | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | jhesketh: did you have a chance to look into that? | 19:05 |
| clarkb | ya I skimmed it and I agree with the plan to keep going | 19:05 |
| clarkb | we should look into fixing the intermittent 404s too | 19:05 |
| jeblair | jhesketh: could you put instructions in the etherpad for how to request swift versions of logs for those of us who haven't tried it out yet? | 19:06 |
| jhesketh | jeblair: I list the auth stuff as a source of error and a few vague options for avoiding it, but I don't think it's huge | 19:06 |
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| jhesketh | The 404s I didn't look into | 19:06 |
| clarkb | path?source=swift | 19:07 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ^ | 19:07 |
| jeblair | (basically, i'm not familiar with the auth problems or the 404s and don't know how to become more familiar) | 19:07 |
| jeblair | clarkb: for what jobs? | 19:07 |
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| jhesketh | clarkb: yep, that's it | 19:07 |
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| clarkb | and you should be able to do it on config jobs | 19:07 |
| clarkb | which are now system-config jobs | 19:07 |
| jhesketh | For project-config | 19:07 |
| jeblair | pretend i was in china for two weeks :) | 19:07 |
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| clarkb | I was using the pupet-apply tests | 19:07 |
| jhesketh | Ah yeah they'll work too | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | so like this: http://logs.openstack.org/01/130001/1/check/gate-infra-puppet-apply-precise/77509cd/console.html?source=swift | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | that's a 404 | 19:08 |
| clarkb | ya now refresh | 19:08 |
| clarkb | eventually you should get the file | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | not so much | 19:09 |
| jhesketh | That may not be recent enough? | 19:09 |
| clarkb | it is from today | 19:09 |
| jeblair | i don't see any log entries about a swift upload | 19:09 |
| jeblair | http://logs.openstack.org/01/130001/1/check/gate-infra-puppet-apply-precise/77509cd/console.html | 19:10 |
| clarkb | hrm we don't seem to apply the swift stuff in that job | 19:10 |
| clarkb | ya so in the change of everything we may have broken that | 19:10 |
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| fungi | oh, possibly broken when we renamed? | 19:10 |
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| clarkb | ya that is my initial guess | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | http://logs.openstack.org/36/128736/5/check/gate-infra-puppet-apply-precise/80a3ead/console.html | 19:11 |
| jeblair | but that works (is on a project-config change) | 19:11 |
| anteaya | so I guess that is feedback for the next agenda item | 19:11 |
| jhesketh | Hmm, I might have a look at what jobs are still running then. I only used the layout one | 19:11 |
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| jhesketh | It could be due to the job failing it doesn't get to the upload swift part | 19:11 |
| jeblair | okay, so folks think it's working well enough that we should proceed to ... adding it to a devstack-gate job? | 19:12 |
| clarkb | jeblair: we should probably sort out the apply centos6 problem first | 19:12 |
| clarkb | just to be sure it won't interfere with d-g | 19:12 |
| jeblair | jhesketh: ah, yep. we'll need to run it regardless of result | 19:12 |
| clarkb | but ya I think that is the next big test as it will give us bigger files and lots of them | 19:12 |
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| jhesketh | jeblair: actually I think the next step should be to disable storing on disk for a job or two so we can find issues like this one | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | that might require changes to some job configs, or the use of a plugin that lets you run things after failure | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | (in this case, i think we can add a plugin if needed since this is something we can bake into turbo-hipster post-jenkins) | 19:14 |
| jhesketh | Yeah I'll need to investigate this case as probably the very next thing to do | 19:14 |
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| jhesketh | (turbo hipster has support) | 19:14 |
| jeblair | so i think we can _also_ upload to swift on devstack immediately, but we do need to solve the failure issue before we have any jobs that _don't_ upload to static.o.o | 19:14 |
| jhesketh | Agreed | 19:15 |
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| jeblair | cool, anything else on this? | 19:15 |
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| jeblair | #topic Config repo split | 19:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Config repo split (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:16 | |
| anteaya | my understanding is that we are done | 19:16 |
| jeblair | so this is done, and i think all that remains is moving the spec to implemented. and we'll drop this from future meetings. | 19:16 |
| jeblair | yaay! | 19:16 |
| anteaya | with the possible exception that swift upload on system-config jobs may be broken | 19:16 |
| anteaya | yay | 19:16 |
| jeblair | #topic Nodepool DIB | 19:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Nodepool DIB (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:16 | |
| jeblair | are there any outstanding nodepool dib patches/issues we should discuss? | 19:17 |
| clarkb | yes | 19:17 |
| clarkb | the dib mutliple outputs change merged \o/ | 19:17 |
| clarkb | shoudl release tomorrow if dib sticks to their schedule | 19:17 |
| jeblair | clarkb: you have a change to start using that, right? | 19:17 |
| clarkb | and I still intend on upgrading nodepool to trusty and have a change I need to update in order to use the new dib feature | 19:17 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ya let me get a link there are some -1's I need to address that I have ignored until the dib change merged | 19:18 |
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| clarkb | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/126747/ | 19:18 |
| clarkb | so as soon as grenade and jenkins are happy again I will probably context switch to the nodepool things | 19:18 |
| jeblair | cool. anything else? | 19:19 |
| clarkb | and thats about it | 19:19 |
| jeblair | Docs publishing | 19:19 |
| jeblair | so this is waiting on us being happy with swift logs... | 19:19 |
| fungi | agreed, since it will rely on similar mechanisms | 19:19 |
| jeblair | ...or us considering the use of afs. | 19:19 |
| jeblair | which, honestly, fits docs publishing pretty well. | 19:20 |
| anteaya | awesome | 19:20 |
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| fungi | agreed, and is much closer than it was last week ;) | 19:20 |
| jeblair | either way, still in a holding pattern | 19:20 |
| jeblair | fungi: indeed :) | 19:20 |
| jeblair | Jobs on trusty | 19:20 |
| anteaya | do we need #topic | 19:21 |
| jeblair | i probably should start doing that, yeah | 19:21 |
| jeblair | anyway, who knows about the trusty move? | 19:21 |
| anteaya | you did for nodepool dib | 19:21 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/py34-transition | 19:21 |
| jeblair | oh, huh | 19:21 |
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| fungi | the list of blockers is getting shorter | 19:21 |
| jeblair | #topic Jobs on trusty | 19:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Jobs on trusty (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:22 | |
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| fungi | glanceclient and to a lesser extent heatclient are problems | 19:22 |
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| anteaya | you punted nicely to the ml on glancelient | 19:22 |
| fungi | mostly problems with using unordered data types to build urls and json for fake api servers | 19:23 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:23 |
| jeblair | fungi: is anyone working on the heat problems? | 19:23 |
| fungi | i was starting to look into that one, and they inherit their fake server from oslo incubator | 19:23 |
| fungi | so i think i need to fix it there | 19:24 |
| fungi | but may also end up punting to them | 19:24 |
| jeblair | i kind of feel like you shouldn't have to be fixing all of the things, unless you really feel like it :) | 19:24 |
| clarkb | ++ | 19:24 |
| anteaya | I agree | 19:24 |
| fungi | i'd personally rather not, but at least giving them some heads up on where the issues seem to be can help | 19:24 |
| fungi | also stackforge/heat-translator seems to have issues, but it's stackforge so they'll need to look into that when i get around to letting them know | 19:25 |
| jeblair | fungi: so at some point, you plan on notifying heat they have trusty problems, yeah? | 19:25 |
| fungi | jeblair: yeah, today i think | 19:26 |
| jeblair | at that point, maybe we can bring it up in the project meeting | 19:26 |
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| fungi | well, it's not that heat is broken on trusty, it's that it's untestable on trusty | 19:26 |
| fungi | so could also be broken, who knows | 19:26 |
| jeblair | fungi: yeah, i think you just said the same thing twice :) | 19:26 |
| fungi | er, heatclient i mean | 19:26 |
| fungi | and yeah, basically if it's not tested... | 19:26 |
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| clarkb | and the SRU stuff is all in | 19:27 |
| jeblair | finally, if we don't see progress we might suggest a deadline to the tc | 19:27 |
| clarkb | hopefully ubuntu pcisk that up after they release unicorn | 19:27 |
| fungi | the two outstanding ubuntu bugs, yeah. blocked on their release freeze i believe | 19:27 |
| clarkb | fungi: ya that is my understanding | 19:27 |
| jeblair | but hopefully we won't get to that point | 19:27 |
| fungi | jeblair: sounds good | 19:27 |
| fungi | i've been pushing not-as-hard yet because we're also waiting on ubuntu | 19:28 |
| fungi | but that does seem just over the horizon now | 19:28 |
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| jeblair | cool. a plan. anything else? | 19:28 |
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| jeblair | #topic Kilo summit topic brainstorming pad (fungi) | 19:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Kilo summit topic brainstorming pad (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:28 | |
| jeblair | whee this got bigger | 19:29 |
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| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-infrastructure-summit-topics | 19:29 |
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| fungi | the items there seem to be getting fleshed out and discussed | 19:29 |
| jeblair | are we ready to try to finalize it? | 19:30 |
| anteaya | I told mtreinish about using the bottom part for the friday sessions | 19:30 |
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| fungi | i think we've had plenty of time to regurgitate our collective brains into it | 19:30 |
| anteaya | so qa knows to add stuff to this etherpad | 19:30 |
| anteaya | does afs still need an etherpad item? | 19:31 |
| krotscheck | jeblair and I talked at the storyboard meeting, and having storyboard get a slot seemed a little superfluous. | 19:31 |
| krotscheck | My goal at the summit is to actually get people to pay attention to StoryBoard. Most of the roadmap things are still pretty well known. | 19:32 |
| jeblair | what do you think about voting on these? add votes to the etherpad next to items you think would be good for sessions? | 19:32 |
| jeblair | this would be a non-binding vote :) | 19:32 |
| fungi | heh | 19:32 |
| anteaya | lines 22-25 can be removed | 19:32 |
| fungi | that seems reasonable. maybe as a first order effort people should remove topics which they've decided aren't needed | 19:32 |
| anteaya | so I will remove them | 19:33 |
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| anteaya | someone in brown beat me to it, thank you | 19:33 |
| AJaeger_ | an unnamed brown ;) | 19:33 |
| fungi | and yeah, voting in here is likely a poor waste of meeting time | 19:33 |
| anteaya | I'm guessing that is jeblair | 19:33 |
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| AJaeger_ | so, should we add in the etherpad "+1 AJaeger" (or -1) ? | 19:34 |
| fungi | but we should probably set the 24-hour clock to people voting for their preferences | 19:34 |
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| fungi | or something along those lines | 19:34 |
| jeblair | yep, i'm brown, i named myself | 19:34 |
| nibalizer | jeblair: maybe give everyone a number of votes (3?) so they can vote for multiple things | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | i think just leave a positive vote next to things you think are useful | 19:35 |
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| jeblair | i left a sample vote next to infra-manual | 19:35 |
| nibalizer | ok | 19:35 |
| jeblair | so if that's clear, we can probably move on and vote asynchronously | 19:36 |
| AJaeger_ | Also on the QA topics? | 19:36 |
| jeblair | oh good question | 19:36 |
| jeblair | i was mostly thinking we need this for the 4 infra session slots we have, so just the top section | 19:36 |
| AJaeger_ | jeblair: ok | 19:36 |
| jeblair | the bottom i think we can leave for the actual meetup at the summit | 19:36 |
| zaro | ughh! my cursor keeps moving on me! | 19:36 |
| fungi | agreed. just the session slots topics | 19:37 |
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| jeblair | #topic Kilo cycle Infra liaisons... should we have them? (fungi) | 19:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Kilo cycle Infra liaisons... should we have them? (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:37 | |
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| jeblair | so i think we mostly decided we don't need formal project liasons right now; the informal contact we have is working okay | 19:38 |
| fungi | qa, oslo, release management, docs, vulnerability management, stable maintenance are all starting to organize liaison lists | 19:38 |
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| AJaeger_ | for liasions, the first question is what do we expect from them | 19:38 |
| fungi | i agree in general we don't have much need | 19:38 |
| jeblair | however, this morning fungi and anteaya discussed the idea of formal third-party ci liasons | 19:38 |
| jeblair | which i think is a fabulous idea | 19:39 |
| AJaeger_ | Are those people that we would ask for a +1 for patches in their projects? | 19:39 |
| AJaeger_ | jeblair: +1 on 3rdparty liasons | 19:39 |
| clarkb | jeblair: anteaya so I was thinking about that again today because it came up | 19:39 |
| jeblair | so projects would nominate people to represent nova when working with third-party ci system operators | 19:39 |
| fungi | each project which has decided they are requiring third-party testing for parts of their codebase would identify points of contact | 19:39 |
| fungi | defaulting to the ptl | 19:39 |
| clarkb | and couldn't we delegate CI voting to each project? | 19:39 |
| clarkb | and get out of the business completely? seems like we talked about that in atlanta | 19:39 |
| anteaya | I'm hoping that during the course of the summit those folks already playing those roles become more willing to be public about it | 19:40 |
| clarkb | it would require some gerrit group magic but should work | 19:40 |
| jeblair | clarkb: yes. you brought it up along with making the gerrit accounts self service. | 19:40 |
| fungi | righht, i think if we tweak to project-specific acls for third-party testing, these would be the people with control over that group | 19:40 |
| clarkb | ya that too :) but I think they are orthogonal things if we want to solve them separately that may be easier | 19:40 |
| anteaya | I would be in favour | 19:40 |
| jeblair | i think that's a great idea. does someone want to make a formal proposal and do the acl testing? | 19:40 |
| anteaya | if we have the gerrit features to do that | 19:40 |
| jeblair | clarkb: i kind of think they are tied. | 19:40 |
| clarkb | I can sign up for the testing of said stuff | 19:41 |
| anteaya | I would except I don't know if I can get it done this week | 19:41 |
| clarkb | since I have suggested it I might as well own it :) | 19:41 |
| anteaya | and I'm off next | 19:41 |
| anteaya | thanks clarkb | 19:41 |
| fungi | i can write up something for the project-wide liaisons page | 19:41 |
| clarkb | #action clarkb figure out gerrit per project third party voting ACLs and third party accounts via openid | 19:41 |
| anteaya | can we let cinder have their meeting first? | 19:41 |
| fungi | as a draft before we make it official on the wiki | 19:41 |
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| anteaya | so maybe write that stuff up thursday fungi | 19:42 |
| anteaya | since thingee was supportive | 19:42 |
| jeblair | hypothetically, if we made everything self-service and put projects in control of their own third-party ci voting... should there still be project third-party ci liasons? | 19:42 |
| fungi | #action fungi draft third-party testing liaisons section for wiki | 19:42 |
| anteaya | but I do kind of want to let cinder own it, rather than it being a directive from us | 19:42 |
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| anteaya | well in matters of what to do if and education | 19:42 |
| fungi | jeblair: well, did we have a solution to projects being able to disable commenting from accounts, or are we still the go-to for that? | 19:42 |
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| anteaya | I would like to deal with one person per project | 19:43 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ya we may still need that rol | 19:43 |
| clarkb | er role | 19:43 |
| jeblair | fungi: i think that's why we need a proposal :) | 19:43 |
| anteaya | rather than the hoard | 19:43 |
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| fungi | if we're stuck disabling the misbehaving systems, i'd like there to be representatives from projects letting us know when to reenable | 19:43 |
| jeblair | fungi: (because i don't know the answer to that) | 19:43 |
| fungi | got it | 19:43 |
| jeblair | fungi: i kind of suspect it would end up being projects can disable voting, but really bad misbehavior may require us to disable an account | 19:43 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ya that is what I am thinking | 19:44 |
| anteaya | that would be great | 19:44 |
| anteaya | and projects are in charge of the steps to become reenabled | 19:44 |
| fungi | but beyond that, the liaisons idea acts as a rallying point for the third-party testers on those projects in place of our infra team | 19:44 |
| krtaylor | third-party liaisons would also be helpful for third-party systems, a point of contact for systems with questions | 19:44 |
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| jeblair | so it sounds like liasons may still be useful even if we go to self-service, both for us (disabling for abuse, and facilitating onboarding of new ci systems with the projects themselves) | 19:44 |
| jeblair | krtaylor: good point | 19:45 |
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| jeblair | so i think both of our action items here sound good. | 19:45 |
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| jeblair | anything else on the topic? | 19:45 |
| rainya | fungi, anteaya, jeblair: i am late to the meeting, but this type of liasoning thing sounds right up my ally so would like to consider being part of it | 19:45 |
| fungi | right. at the moment many of them assume they need to come to us because there's no other published point of contact, when we're not actually the people seting this policy for the projects in question | 19:45 |
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| fungi | and yeah, nothing else on this topic | 19:46 |
| fungi | other than thanks rainya! | 19:46 |
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| jeblair | rainya: cool, clarkb and fungi have action items, so hopefully we can review those at the next meeting and figure out what needs doing | 19:46 |
| * fungi nods | 19:47 | |
| jeblair | #topic Publish devstack.org content under infra (anteaya) | 19:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Publish devstack.org content under infra (anteaya) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:47 | |
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| anteaya | I think this is done | 19:47 |
| anteaya | fungi: did the redirect happen from devstack.org? | 19:47 |
| jeblair | ooh, is there a direct url you can share? | 19:47 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130001/ | 19:47 |
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| fungi | needs reviews | 19:47 |
| AJaeger_ | #link http://docs.openstack.org/developer/devstack/ | 19:47 |
| jeblair | how cool! | 19:48 |
| rainya | oooooh, nice! | 19:48 |
| fungi | not quite sure yet why my change is failing | 19:48 |
| anteaya | no kidding | 19:48 |
| anteaya | but there it is | 19:48 |
| jeblair | so once fungi solves all the problems, we should be able to set up a redirect from devstack.org | 19:48 |
| rainya | (i am ETO today for grad school assignments and know what I will be playing with between papers) | 19:49 |
| fungi | but anyway, yeah, once the redirect is in place on static.o.o we should be done | 19:49 |
| clarkb | woot | 19:49 |
| anteaya | fungi: yay | 19:49 |
| jeblair | btw, i'm assuming we made a decision somewhere to do a redirect rather than continuing to host on devstack.org directly? | 19:49 |
| anteaya | AJaeger_: thanks for the publish jobs! | 19:49 |
| anteaya | last meeting or the one before? | 19:49 |
| fungi | jeblair: yeah, i believe dtroyer came out in favor of that | 19:49 |
| AJaeger_ | And mordred fixed devstack so that we could publish easily | 19:50 |
| fungi | he can chime in if he's around, but i'll add him to the redirect review too | 19:50 |
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| jeblair | wfm | 19:50 |
| jeblair | #topic Drop gate-{name}-python26 from python-jobs template and specify it explicitly - and python2.6 deprecation (krotscheck, fungi, ajaeger) | 19:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Drop gate-{name}-python26 from python-jobs template and specify it explicitly - and python2.6 deprecation (krotscheck, fungi, ajaeger) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:50 | |
| krotscheck | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128736/ is waiting on clarkb | 19:50 |
| clarkb | I am going to review that change as soon as I have a moment | 19:50 |
| clarkb | to double check the thing from my last -1 | 19:51 |
| clarkb | and will merge so we should be moving on that | 19:51 |
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| * AJaeger_ is confused with the other reviews - I've added links to the meeting page. | 19:51 | |
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| krotscheck | The other reviews seem to be in a weird merge conflict. | 19:51 |
| AJaeger_ | I see mixed messages on the removal of python26 jobs from projects - how do we want to conintue here? | 19:51 |
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| AJaeger_ | krotscheck: I'll fix the merge conflicts tomorrow - thanks for doing it last night! | 19:52 |
| krotscheck | AJaeger_: Anytime! | 19:52 |
| clarkb | for projects with stable icehouse and or juno we will only run py26 on those two branches | 19:52 |
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| clarkb | if a project is a lib project of those projects with stable branches but does not have stable branches we will continue to py26 on master | 19:52 |
| clarkb | that list is basically anything in the oslo program and the python-*clients | 19:52 |
| clarkb | everything else should stop with py26 testing | 19:53 |
| fungi | AJaeger_: on 129433 dhellmann did say to stop running it on oslo-incubator as i suspected we should | 19:53 |
| pleia2 | clarkb: stackforge projects stop too? | 19:53 |
| AJaeger_ | fungi, ok, I'll update 129433. | 19:53 |
| krotscheck | If the PTL or a project member expresses a strong dislike (-1) for running only on branches, what do we do? Ignore them? | 19:53 |
| clarkb | fungi: oslo-incubator has stable branches iirc | 19:53 |
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| clarkb | fungi: so we should test on their stable branches | 19:53 |
| dhellmann | fungi: actually, we may need to wait until we graduate the bits that are used in the client libs | 19:53 |
| fungi | clarkb: based on weird decisions between ttx and dhellmann some libs do have stable/icehouse and stable/juno branches where they backported out-of-order fixes | 19:53 |
| clarkb | krotscheck: for openstack*/ projects yesish we should explain why | 19:53 |
| dhellmann | fungi: we expect that to happen this cycle | 19:53 |
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| clarkb | so not complete ignoring | 19:54 |
| * dhellmann adopts hurt expression | 19:54 | |
| clarkb | for stackforge projects I think we remove py26 and let projects add it back | 19:54 |
| * anteaya pats dhellmann colsolingly | 19:54 | |
| clarkb | we should get this done early so that no one screams in a year | 19:54 |
| * ttx looks positively shocked | 19:54 | |
| pleia2 | ok | 19:54 |
| clarkb | screaming now is better than screaming then | 19:54 |
| jeblair | yep | 19:54 |
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| ttx | "in stable/icehouse, no one hears you scream" | 19:55 |
| AJaeger_ | So, ignore any -1 on https://review.openstack.org/129434 and ask them to send a patch? | 19:55 |
| fungi | dhellmann: oh, stable servers are going to depend on incubated libs from master? | 19:55 |
| clarkb | AJaeger_: yes I think that will help us track it better via git history | 19:55 |
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| clarkb | AJaeger_: if they propose soonish we can merge it all together so that there is not period of not testing | 19:55 |
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| AJaeger_ | should we send an email to openstack-dev pointing these changes out? | 19:56 |
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| clarkb | AJaeger_: ya we should probably do that once we have a set of changes we are happy with | 19:56 |
| dhellmann | fungi: there are parts of the client libs in the incubator, and the client libs need to work with 2.6, so the incubator needs to work with 2.6 | 19:56 |
| clarkb | (maybe that is now?) | 19:56 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: yeah, i still have no idea what that means exactly, so i'm just going to take your word for it for now | 19:57 |
| jeblair | someone want to volunteer to write that email? | 19:57 |
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| AJaeger_ | clarkb: I need to rebase everything and address the comments on oslo first - should be ready tomorrow (unless somebody takes over the patch) | 19:57 |
| rainya | I'd like clarification since it will impact current projects i'm working on (everything is 2.6 still in the public cloud) is "this cycle" Kilo or Juno? | 19:57 |
| AJaeger_ | rainya: kilo | 19:57 |
| dhellmann | fungi: there's an incubator module called "apiclient" that is synced into some of the client libraries, and there's another called something like "cliutils" that is the same | 19:58 |
| fungi | rainya: kilo | 19:58 |
| AJaeger_ | rainya: juno is out and finished | 19:58 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: oh, and the stable servers are going to start using those (directly or indirectly) from somewhere other than syncing from the incubator? | 19:58 |
| rainya | AJaeger_, thank you; I knew juno was finished, but wanted to be explicit as I had heard it go back and forth earlier this month | 19:58 |
| clarkb | I can write that email if no one else wants to be the endpoint for responses :) | 19:58 |
| fungi | anyway, we can take the oslo-incubator design details discussion for later | 19:59 |
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| clarkb | #action clarkb write py26 deprecation email | 19:59 |
| * AJaeger_ shares the blame since he wrote the patches ;) | 19:59 | |
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| AJaeger_ | thanks, clarkb | 19:59 |
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| jeblair | we're at time. thanks everyone! | 19:59 |
| anteaya | thanks jeblair | 19:59 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Oct 21 20:00:01 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-10-21-19.00.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-10-21-19.00.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-10-21-19.00.log.html | 20:00 |
| jeblair | oh one second over | 20:00 |
| vishy | you and your extra seconds | 20:00 |
| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:00 |
| mikal | Yep | 20:00 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:00 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:00 |
| redrobot | o/ | 20:00 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:01 |
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| ttx | jgriffith, annegentle, mordred, devananda, jaypipes, sdague, dhellmann : around ? | 20:01 |
| jaypipes | o. | 20:01 |
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| jaypipes | o/ | 20:01 |
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| jgriffith | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | I think sdague is still parenting or planting LEDs | 20:01 |
| annegentle | here | 20:01 |
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| anteaya | jaypipes: the low 5 | 20:01 |
| jaypipes | indeed. | 20:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Oct 21 20:01:53 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:01 |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
| ttx | First meeting of the Kilo season ! woohoo | 20:02 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:02 |
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| russellb | \o/ | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #topic Welcome new Kilo TC members | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Welcome new Kilo TC members (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | welcome back jgriffith | 20:02 |
| jaypipes | welcome jgriffith | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/129274 | 20:02 |
| dhellmann | jgriffith: o/ | 20:02 |
| jeblair | welcome jgriffith! | 20:02 |
| ttx | This is housekeeping, will approve now unless someone complains | 20:02 |
| jgriffith | :) Thanks!!!! | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #topic Election of the Kilo TC chair | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Election of the Kilo TC chair (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | Is anyone else interested in chairing the TC ? | 20:03 |
| ttx | I pushed as a candidacy: | 20:03 |
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| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/129275 | 20:03 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:04 |
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| mordred | not really here, but I support ttx | 20:04 |
| annegentle | mordred: heh I thought you were volunteering yourself | 20:04 |
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| ttx | If you don't want to propose yourself as alternative, just vote on that one | 20:04 |
| annegentle | ttx: keep on keeping on | 20:04 |
| ttx | well, it's now part of my job description, so I guess my employer agrees | 20:05 |
| russellb | ttx: you've done an awesome job, thanks :) | 20:05 |
| * dhellmann imagines "stay calm, and thierry on" t-shirts | 20:05 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: lol | 20:05 |
| jaypipes | lol | 20:05 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: nice | 20:05 |
| mikal | Cafe press someone? | 20:05 |
| * devananda lurks in this meeting while lurking in a f2f meeting | 20:05 | |
| markmcclain | ttx: congrats looks like you have enough votes | 20:05 |
| ttx | yep, approved | 20:06 |
| devananda | ttx: grats! | 20:06 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone! | 20:06 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: thank you for signing up for another round :-) | 20:06 |
| ttx | I won't stop now that it's becoming fun | 20:06 |
| ttx | #topic Cross-project workshops track scheduling | 20:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cross-project workshops track scheduling (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:06 | |
| ttx | So... We need to work this week on selecting the cross-project workshops | 20:07 |
| ttx | We have 18 40-min slots available | 20:07 |
| ttx | And a lot of proposals @ | 20:07 |
| ttx | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-crossproject-summit-topics | 20:07 |
| ttx | Who is interested in working on the final selection ? Last time I did it with Russell, wouldn't mind rotating | 20:07 |
| markmcclain | I'd be happy to help work on it | 20:07 |
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| russellb | happy to help | 20:07 |
| annegentle | I can too | 20:07 |
| russellb | last time really everyone participated | 20:07 |
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| russellb | or most at least | 20:07 |
| russellb | etherpad, where everyone left a -2/-1/0/1/2 score and comments | 20:08 |
| russellb | and that got us most of the way there | 20:08 |
| jeblair | i would like to help | 20:08 |
| jeblair | i thought the process last time worked well | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | I'd like to be involved, too | 20:08 |
| ttx | Hmm, ok, so we could etherpad it into shape | 20:08 |
| jaypipes | I've added my thoughts and interested in tags in there... | 20:08 |
| annegentle | do we know how many are on there? I scanned it earlier today | 20:08 |
| russellb | yeah, let's etherpad it up | 20:08 |
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| anteaya | line 71 can be removed unless you want to keep it for tracking purposes | 20:08 |
| ttx | and then who wants to work on the synthesis ? russell & mark ? | 20:08 |
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| vishy | despite all the discussion of big-tent openstack on the ml | 20:09 |
| russellb | just need someone to organize the etherpad, and then collect results, help figure out things in the grey area, figure out the proposed schedule | 20:09 |
| vishy | there is only one session about fixing testing: Implications of moving functional tests to projects | 20:09 |
| russellb | ttx: works for me | 20:09 |
| vishy | seems like we need more there | 20:09 |
| annegentle | API working group also got a slot | 20:09 |
| markmcclain | ttx: sure | 20:09 |
| jgriffith | vishy: +1 | 20:09 |
| mikal | vishy: makes a good point | 20:09 |
| jgriffith | I've been away, so not clear n if/what plan there might be | 20:09 |
| ttx | vishy: could also be done as a QA session | 20:09 |
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| annegentle | docs does not have a separate track so cross-project is it for docs | 20:09 |
| ttx | #action all TC members to weigh in on therpad | 20:09 |
| jeblair | vishy: i don't think the big tent is about fixing testing; that's one very small part. | 20:10 |
| jgriffith | ttx: but if the proposal is moving some of it to projects it's kinda "anti-QA" :) | 20:10 |
| russellb | ttx: what kind of timeline do we have for this | 20:10 |
| russellb | i'm actually traveling the rest of this week ... | 20:10 |
| ttx | #action russellb and markmcclain to crystallize it into a schedule near the end of week | 20:10 |
| russellb | ha | 20:10 |
| jeblair | ttx: i think the functional testing cross-project item is important | 20:10 |
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| jeblair | ttx: i'm hoping you are not suggesting scheduling that as a qa session | 20:10 |
| ttx | we need final schedule by Tuesday next week | 20:10 |
| ttx | jeblair: that was not my suggestion | 20:10 |
| jeblair | ttx: okay; what were you suggesting be a qa session? | 20:11 |
| ttx | jeblair: vishy was saying only one session was proposed about testing -- I expect there to be plenty of QA sessiona bout testing. | 20:11 |
| vishy | jeblair: that is one part that will require a lot of cross-project discussion, but my point was that there are no other sessions about other parts (that I could find) | 20:11 |
| annegentle | oh maybe API working group didn't get a separate session. | 20:11 |
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| jeblair | vishy: *nod* do you think something is missing? | 20:12 |
| ttx | API wg definitely needs a slot | 20:12 |
| markmcclain | +1 | 20:12 |
| annegentle | yep ttx | 20:12 |
| russellb | so how about everyone go through and give some -2/-1/0/+1/+2 votes by the end of the week? | 20:12 |
| ttx | russellb: so you can't really work on it by the end of week ? | 20:12 |
| annegentle | and honestly the API docs/specs could go in API working group. | 20:13 |
| russellb | and then we can make the schedule monday/tuesday? | 20:13 |
| annegentle | mostly it's about consolidation agreement | 20:13 |
| russellb | or you think we should expedite further? | 20:13 |
| ttx | russellb: wfm | 20:13 |
| ttx | no, scheduling on Monday/Tuesday sounds good to me | 20:13 |
| annegentle | Can someone guesstimate a count? | 20:13 |
| russellb | annegentle: count? | 20:13 |
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| vishy | jeblair: I don’t have any specific topics offhand, but maybe a general big-tent topic to discuss changes | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: we have 32 proposals | 20:14 |
| ttx | <ttx> We have 18 40-min slots available | 20:14 |
| vishy | maybe it will be clearer after we discuss/vote on the dhellman proposals | 20:14 |
| annegentle | thanks dhellmann (nice way to apply technology to that question) | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: automate everything | 20:14 |
| ttx | russellb: oh and we have some time periods where only two run in parallel, and some time priods when 3 run in parallel | 20:15 |
| russellb | fun | 20:15 |
| ttx | the idea being to give the slots where only 2 sessions run in parallel to topics we want to maximize attendance for | 20:15 |
| russellb | we can sort that out monday once we have a list | 20:15 |
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| annegentle | oh criminey | 20:15 |
| ttx | yep, fun | 20:15 |
| ttx | OK, I think we have a plan for this | 20:15 |
| ttx | worst case scenario we close it at the TC meetign next week | 20:15 |
| russellb | k | 20:16 |
| russellb | so we just need votes on the etherpad by friday | 20:16 |
| annegentle | ayup | 20:16 |
| russellb | to start | 20:16 |
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| ttx | yes | 20:16 |
| zehicle | o/ | 20:16 |
| annegentle | ttx: is there pod room for cross-project spillover? | 20:16 |
| ttx | #undo | 20:16 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x319cf10> | 20:16 |
| ttx | #action russellb and markmcclain to crystallize it into a schedule on Monday/Tuesday next week | 20:16 |
| ttx | annegentle: there are pods. | 20:17 |
| ttx | ok, next topic... | 20:17 |
| ttx | #topic TC-owned repositories | 20:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "TC-owned repositories (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:17 | |
| ttx | We have a few governance changes related to TC-owned git repositories | 20:17 |
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| *** jamielenz is now known as jamielennox | 20:17 | |
| ttx | Those currently appear nowhere, and don't technically belong to programs.yaml | 20:18 |
| ttx | * Add list of repositories owned by the TC (https://review.openstack.org/125733) | 20:18 |
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| ttx | This review ^ adds the file describing those. | 20:18 |
| ttx | The next two are adding two repos: | 20:18 |
| ttx | * Add a new openstack-specs repo under the control of the TC (https://review.openstack.org/125509) | 20:18 |
| ttx | * Adds a new api-wg repo under the control of the TC (https://review.openstack.org/129188) | 20:18 |
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| jeblair | 20:17 < clarkb> jeblair hrm I can probably swing something later in afternoon. maybe 3ish? | 20:18 |
| ttx | I'm fine with considering them part of the openstack mission and justifying their presence in the openstack/* namespace with a TC stamp for the time being | 20:18 |
| jeblair | (oops) | 20:19 |
| ttx | since that's what our current governance mandates | 20:19 |
| jeblair | i think that's a swell idea | 20:19 |
| ttx | sounds like a good workaround | 20:19 |
| jeblair | i think giving the api wg a tc charter is a good idea too | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | we should document it to make it official | 20:19 |
| markmcclain | jeblair: ++ | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | it == the ownership plan | 20:20 |
| anteaya | so when reviewing patches to create new tc repos | 20:20 |
| ttx | Approving the first one since it has enough | 20:20 |
| anteaya | where do I look for the mandate? | 20:20 |
| anteaya | the tc meeting logs? | 20:20 |
| annegentle | so the tc is ultimately accountable, or the tc is ultimately governing? | 20:20 |
| russellb | so, api wg proposes content, but TC reviews/approves? | 20:20 |
| ttx | anteaya: in the governance repo ? | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: the new file created by https://review.openstack.org/125733 | 20:21 |
| anteaya | ttx okay I shall refer to the governance repo | 20:21 |
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| ttx | russellb: personally I see it more as a working group ,they build recommendations | 20:21 |
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| annegentle | I was thinking of it like api-wg proposes guidelines, TC or api-wg can +1, with one person being the final +1 like how ttx serves on TC voting | 20:21 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: awesome | 20:21 |
| ttx | then we'll see if we should force it down anyone throat | 20:21 |
| ttx | but I'd rather not ti | 20:21 |
| ttx | to* | 20:21 |
| annegentle | how do we know how many votes are sufficient on reviews? | 20:22 |
| ttx | I'd let the wg organize itself | 20:22 |
| jaypipes | annegentle: would be up to the API WG to determine a policy. | 20:22 |
| annegentle | jaypipes: ok that's fair | 20:22 |
| russellb | i guess my only concern is that we're empowering a group, without the group having done work yet to build their credibility | 20:22 |
| ttx | Frankly, it's not the first time this working group is created | 20:22 |
| ttx | so I'd ratrher let them start producing something | 20:22 |
| annegentle | yeah I'd rather support success :) | 20:22 |
| russellb | we don't bless a project the day they create a wiki page, we expect them to write a bunch of code and build a community around it | 20:23 |
| ttx | we have had API czars before. | 20:23 |
| jaypipes | russellb: well, we're empowering a group to create guidelines, not enforce those guideliens. | 20:23 |
| ttx | they just never took off | 20:23 |
| russellb | jaypipes: fair, though it's implied everyone should follow them, right? | 20:23 |
| jeblair | russellb: if they come up with something we think is a good idea? | 20:23 |
| ttx | russellb: at this point, I wouldn't say that | 20:23 |
| ttx | I want to let them create something | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | maybe the policies in this specs repo aren't what people should follow, but it gives them a place to create those policies? | 20:24 |
| ttx | If we like it, we can push it forward | 20:24 |
| jeblair | dhellmann, ttx: ++ | 20:24 |
| russellb | if we're just creating a repo that's fine | 20:24 |
| jaypipes | russellb: eventually I would like the guidance from the WG to be enforceable, but the guidelines should stand on their own merit. the problem is, who decides if the guidelines have merit? | 20:24 |
| ttx | At this point it's just "creating a repo" yes | 20:24 |
| russellb | jaypipes: we do, i suppose | 20:24 |
| ttx | and let them produce awesome recommendations | 20:24 |
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| dhellmann | right, we'll have to make a decision about what to do with the policies after they exist | 20:25 |
| jaypipes | russellb: right, which is why it's proposed to go under the purview of the TC's repos. | 20:25 |
| russellb | which is why my first question was, who approves the contents of the repo | 20:25 |
| jaypipes | russellb: frankly, I'd just be happy to have an agreed-upon place to put API guidance proposals :) | 20:25 |
| annegentle | russellb: right, that's what I was wondering too | 20:25 |
| annegentle | The repo is a step up from the wiki page | 20:25 |
| ttx | russellb: they build the recommendation. Then we see if we like it enough to push it | 20:25 |
| annegentle | with reviews, etc. | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | russellb: the working group will approve them, though I'd like the TC to have voting rights in all working groups. after the proposed policies are defined we should probably put them in the governance repo | 20:26 |
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| anteaya | in addition to the name of the repo that can be created, should we also have the name of someone infra can seed the core group for the repo? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/125733/1/reference/technical-committee-repos.yaml | 20:26 |
| russellb | ok, the end goal workflow just isn't totally clear to me | 20:26 |
| ttx | anteaya: how about the owner of the change, unless specified otherwise in the commit message ? | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | russellb: I agree, we're still figuring that out | 20:27 |
| anteaya | ttx if we like that, that is fine with me | 20:27 |
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| ttx | russellb: at this point they need a git repo to experiment the process | 20:28 |
| russellb | fair enough. | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: please also add the tc group (whatever it's actually called) to the new groups that can vote +2/-2 on these new repos | 20:28 |
| jeblair | so how about we let the wg work on creating something, they come back to us when they are done, and we approve it. we try to keep in touch in the meantime. but we make it clear that a commit landing in that repo at this point does not make it policy. | 20:28 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair: ++ | 20:28 |
| russellb | jeblair: wfm | 20:28 |
| ttx | It's ultimately under our control, so we can "fix" it if we don't like how the organize | 20:28 |
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| ttx | Any TC member volunteering to keep track of where this is going ? jaypipes maybe ? | 20:29 |
| annegentle | ttx: that's a bit... unsettling or demotivating for the wg | 20:29 |
| jaypipes | anything other than a wiki page works for me. :) | 20:29 |
| jaypipes | ttx: yes, I will take point on it. | 20:29 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: does the tc group consist of the members of the tc? | 20:29 |
| ttx | annegentle: I think it's less demotivating than waiting before giving them a git repo :) | 20:29 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: I'm guessing yes, but would like to be sure | 20:29 |
| russellb | the suggestion of just using openstack-specs kinda makes sense too | 20:29 |
| russellb | but i don't care much either way | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: yes, there must be a group in gerrit somewhere that has all of the tc members in it, and that's the one I mean | 20:29 |
| jeblair | maybe we should propose a commit to governance chatering the api wg and recording this intent? | 20:30 |
| annegentle | russellb: that might be a good way to look at it also | 20:30 |
| ttx | #info jaypipes volunteers to report back on TC with API WG progress | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: whoever can +1/-1 on the governance repo | 20:30 |
| russellb | jaypipes: thanks | 20:30 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair: ++ | 20:30 |
| jaypipes | no problemo. | 20:30 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/205,members | 20:30 |
| jgriffith | jeblair: +1 | 20:30 |
| * ttx looks at vote counts on that repo | 20:30 | |
| annegentle | api working group is basically a specialty for cross-project | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: that's it | 20:30 |
| anteaya | great, thanks | 20:30 |
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| ttx | We have 8 YES there, so I'll approve it now | 20:30 |
| ttx | unless someone screams | 20:31 |
| ttx | ok done | 20:31 |
| ttx | that should unblock the repo creation | 20:31 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes | 20:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:31 | |
| ttx | * Move config to system-config in the infra program (https://review.openstack.org/129438) | 20:31 |
| ttx | This one is housekeeping, will approve unless someone disagrees | 20:32 |
| jeblair | we're totally not renaming it back ;P | 20:32 |
| ttx | good to know! | 20:32 |
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| ttx | * Add heat-translator to the Heat program (https://review.openstack.org/127349) | 20:32 |
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| ttx | This one has Heat PTL's +1 on it, will approve unless someone complains now | 20:32 |
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| ttx | #topic Stalled changes | 20:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Stalled changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:33 | |
| ttx | * Remove support for vendor extensions from our code (https://review.openstack.org/122968) | 20:33 |
| mikal | I abandoned my one of those | 20:33 |
| ttx | Not a lot of progress there... | 20:33 |
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| ttx | mikal: yes, I cleaned it up from list | 20:33 |
| jeblair | oh, this has been revised | 20:34 |
| ttx | yes | 20:34 |
| jeblair | it's no longer a flame but a serious suggestion | 20:34 |
| mikal | Oh, interesting | 20:34 |
| mikal | I was avoiding the flame | 20:34 |
| ttx | looks less like a flame yes | 20:34 |
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| zaneb | less flamey, still quite woolly | 20:34 |
| jeblair | i will take a look at it again, because i think the idea merits consideration | 20:35 |
| * dhellmann wonders who dared mordred to use whereas | 20:35 | |
| zaneb | dhellmann: I believe it was vishy | 20:35 |
| ttx | so, let's keep this one active ? | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | zaneb: that sounds like something he'd do | 20:35 |
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| vishy | +1 | 20:35 |
| ttx | * Add a docs environment to the testing interface (https://review.openstack.org/119875) | 20:35 |
| ttx | This one also failed to pick up support... what's the next step there ? | 20:35 |
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| * jaypipes might have to reconsider that review just because of the use of the phrase "incent the vendor to align with gusto." | 20:36 | |
| jeblair | ttx: poke mordred and see if he has further thoughts on it? | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I think we mostly agreed with jeblair to leave the "docs" target as optional | 20:37 |
| ttx | yes, I guess... | 20:37 |
| annegentle | I'm okay with docs target as optional | 20:37 |
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| ttx | #action ttx to reach to mordred to check for further thoughts or abandon on https://review.openstack.org/119875 | 20:37 |
| jgriffith | if it had one more "Whereas" line I would've been +1 | 20:37 |
| annegentle | I cna change my vote | 20:37 |
| ttx | * Naive script to verify extra-atc foundation status (https://review.openstack.org/121696) | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | and if it's optional we don't have to include it in the guidelines | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I just abandoned that one | 20:38 |
| ttx | was abandoned | 20:38 |
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| dhellmann | I'll try to find time to resubmit it to the other suggested repo | 20:38 |
| annegentle | I support that tox -edocs exists | 20:38 |
| ttx | alrighty. I feel like we are much more efficient in Kilo, we processed like 12 chnages in 39 minutes | 20:38 |
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| ttx | Now for a funnier topic | 20:39 |
| jeblair | annegentle: ++ (and i use it!); i just want to make sure our deliverables are consistently generated | 20:39 |
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| ttx | #topic Governance structure reform | 20:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Governance structure reform (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:39 | |
| ttx | So we obviously don't have the time to thoroughly discuss those proposals in the remaining 20min | 20:40 |
| ttx | we have two things up for review: | 20:40 |
| ttx | * Doug's series (https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:big-tent,n,z) | 20:40 |
| ttx | * Jay's alternative (https://review.openstack.org/126582) | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | would everyone prefer to continue reviewing my series as a series, or should I squash them into one commit? | 20:40 |
| ttx | Personally I feel like they are both going in the same direction, but from opposite ends | 20:40 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I don't mind the series, personally | 20:40 |
| devananda | dhellmann: squash please. perhaps 2 changes | 20:40 |
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| jeblair | i really like that dhellman (and then jaypipes) put those changes up for review; i do think that was the natural next step | 20:41 |
| jeblair | but in my mind it has exposed that we may still have some big-picture ideas to agree on | 20:41 |
| jeblair | so maybe we can discuss those at the summit to agree on high level "requirements" and then further refine them in review? | 20:41 |
| ttx | wouldn't mind squash either | 20:41 |
| mikal | I'd like to discuss the premise of dhellmann's if we have time for that | 20:41 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair: yes, that's exactly why I put the changes together :-) | 20:41 |
| ttx | jeblair: ++ | 20:41 |
| devananda | jeblair: ++ | 20:41 |
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| ttx | Doug's incrementally changes the governance to introduce big-tent things in | 20:41 |
| ttx | Jay's rips off the charter first and then rebuilds | 20:41 |
| ttx | But the end result is not that different. | 20:41 |
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| zaneb | jeblair: why not discuss on the mailing list? | 20:41 |
| ttx | (imho) | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | ttx: do we have a formal in-person meeting of the tc scheduled for any time during the summit? | 20:42 |
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| ttx | I think I have an empty slot on Wednesday at 4am | 20:42 |
| mikal | I feel like face to face is going to go better than yet another 100 email thread | 20:43 |
| devananda | ttx: lol | 20:43 |
| markmcclain | mikal: +1 | 20:43 |
| mikal | But yeah, I don't know when that would happen | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | mikal: yeah, but if we don't actually have a scheduled meeting it's going to be 100 f2f meetings | 20:43 |
| mikal | But I think my underlying concern here is this: | 20:43 |
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| devananda | f2f ++, with follow up being changes to (or new) patches to governance repo | 20:43 |
| ttx | I think we need to converge to a single proposal and then expose it to ML | 20:43 |
| zaneb | mikal: maybe for you, but shouldn't the whole community be involved? | 20:43 |
| mikal | We're trying to solve our own failure of leadership with yet more governance | 20:43 |
| jgriffith | sounds like great dinner conversation :) | 20:43 |
| mikal | That's wrong | 20:43 |
| jgriffith | Foood fight!! | 20:43 |
| mikal | We should just lead more effectively | 20:43 |
| mikal | zaneb: maybe, we certainly shouldn't exclude them | 20:44 |
| anteaya | mikal: I don't see it as failure of leadership | 20:44 |
| ttx | mikal: I wouldn't say "more governance" tbh | 20:44 |
| anteaya | I see is as incredbile growth | 20:44 |
| mikal | zaneb: however, the TC needs to work out waht they think first | 20:44 |
| anteaya | resulting from great leadership | 20:44 |
| devananda | mikal: we are evolving our govnernance in response to growth. | 20:44 |
| devananda | mikal: I dont know whether it's more or less gov | 20:44 |
| jeblair | zaneb: i generally consider that summit sessions do not exclude our community | 20:44 |
| jgriffith | ttx: I like your proposal of solidifying a bit and going to ML | 20:44 |
| devananda | but it's different | 20:44 |
| annegentle | I think requirements first is a good discussion to have. | 20:44 |
| ttx | I think the general issue was discussed on ML threads already | 20:44 |
| jgriffith | ttx: but going to ML with structure and boundaries :) | 20:44 |
| ttx | the next step is a formal proposal | 20:45 |
| dhellmann | mikal: I largely agree, but think some of the proposals will also make that easier. | 20:45 |
| jaypipes | mikal: actually, my proposal rips away governance, not adds to it. | 20:45 |
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| ttx | that can be reviewed on Gerrit/discussed on ML | 20:45 |
| jaypipes | rather, rips away rigid structure, rather than adds to it. | 20:45 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: interesting, should we put this on the cross-project session schedule? | 20:45 |
| ttx | because another round of talking generally about the problem won't really help | 20:45 |
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| ttx | I'd say that both of the proposals on the table today remove governance | 20:46 |
| mikal | I like the idea of a cross project session | 20:46 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: sounds like a good idea | 20:46 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: +1 | 20:46 |
| * dhellmann adds to the etherpad | 20:46 | |
| ttx | I think I suggested such a workshop | 20:46 |
| ttx | already | 20:46 |
| * ttx checks | 20:46 | |
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| dhellmann | ttx: #12? | 20:47 |
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| dhellmann | "growth challenges" | 20:47 |
| ttx | yes, including 12.5 | 20:47 |
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| jaypipes | "13 kids and counting"? | 20:47 |
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| jeblair | jaypipes: you mean 120 kids? | 20:48 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: so maybe just +1 that? Or build upon it ? | 20:48 |
| annegentle | we're up to 20 rest api definitions if you include incubating | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | ttx: OK | 20:49 |
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| ttx | At this point it's also fine of others want to push solid proposals up for review, like Doug and Jay did | 20:49 |
| ttx | Good to see what the various options are | 20:49 |
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| jaypipes | 13 was referring to the TC membership :) | 20:49 |
| ttx | So plan is like this | 20:49 |
| ttx | 1. Big ML thread about the problem (done) | 20:50 |
| ttx | 2. Formal suggestions up on review (in progress) | 20:50 |
| ttx | 3. Workshop on potential convergence (Paris) | 20:50 |
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| ttx | 4. Converged plan proposed on review/ML for further discussion (if we converge) | 20:51 |
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| ttx | Sounds good to me | 20:51 |
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| jeblair | ++ | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | I'll try to address all of the comments on my patch series and squash it together into a smaller number of changes before the summit | 20:51 |
| ttx | revolution is difficult, but Paris is the right place to do it. | 20:52 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: thanks, I'll find it easier as well | 20:52 |
| annegentle | ttx: +1 | 20:52 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:52 | |
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| ttx | I have one question (which I'll also ask the PTLs in the next meeting) | 20:52 |
| ttx | The M design summit time span | 20:53 |
| ttx | That's the one after Vancouver, located in APAC | 20:53 |
| ttx | The main conference will happen Tuesday - Thursday | 20:53 |
| ttx | Monday will have Ops Summit, analyst day, and other smallish pre-summit things | 20:53 |
| ttx | Foundation staff needs to close on the contract and asks when should design summit be ? | 20:53 |
| annegentle | Friday off? :) | 20:53 |
| ttx | We can do Tuesday - Friday, but then we fully overlap with the conference, which may impact the PTLs ability to present at the conference | 20:53 |
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| ttx | We can do Wednesday - Saturday, but then... Saturday. Long week. | 20:54 |
| ttx | We can do Monday, Wednesday-Friday (break on Tuesday), too. But feels weird. | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | what did we do in hong kong? | 20:54 |
| ttx | What is your general preference on that ? | 20:54 |
| * dhellmann can't remember yesterday | 20:54 | |
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| devananda | wed-fri | 20:54 |
| annegentle | all-cross-project by M :) | 20:54 |
| vishy | can we do monday - thursday? just to try the opposite? | 20:54 |
| annegentle | only mid-cycles for the six months prior | 20:54 |
| ttx | vishy: I don't like that, because everyone shows up on the design summit | 20:54 |
| russellb | mon-thurs, or tues-fri | 20:54 |
| vishy | i guess that doesn’t really help | 20:54 |
| ttx | we diud that once (oin POrtland) | 20:55 |
| russellb | basically, anything but making the week 6 days | 20:55 |
| devananda | i've just accepted that conferences are basically going to be sun-fri | 20:55 |
| annegentle | russellb: yup | 20:55 |
| jgriffith | russellb: +1 | 20:55 |
| vishy | i like the monday, w-f idea | 20:55 |
| annegentle | I'll keep pushing for four days | 20:55 |
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| zaneb | dhellmann: iirc we did Tue-Fri in HK | 20:55 |
| annegentle | accept the overlap | 20:55 |
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| jgriffith | cuz in APAC for many of us it's 6-7 days as is | 20:55 |
| russellb | and joint tc+board meeting on sunday | 20:55 |
| vishy | do they have any candidate cities yet? | 20:55 |
| russellb | so that's another day | 20:55 |
| russellb | sooo long | 20:55 |
| ttx | russellb: I guess the board thing could be on the Monday there | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: do you think if the sessions were all cross-project that would make it easier for ptls to present? | 20:56 |
| ttx | vishy: yes, but won't say until contract is signed | 20:56 |
| russellb | ttx: true, but lots of people want to join the ops meetup and stuff .. | 20:56 |
| russellb | which is probably more valuable as a day off than a main conf day honestly | 20:56 |
| ttx | Soo. not Wed-Sat | 20:56 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: more solving for why have a design summit at all | 20:56 |
| anteaya | tuesday-friday | 20:56 |
| russellb | so my vote is tues-fri | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: ah | 20:56 |
| anteaya | ttx can we pick a city that has some M options? | 20:56 |
| annegentle | with the growth, etc. | 20:56 |
| ttx | yeah, I think Tue-Fri is the less wrong solution | 20:56 |
| anteaya | like Melbourne? | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I think tue-fri is best | 20:57 |
| markmcclain | Tues-Fri | 20:57 |
| russellb | ttx: ++ | 20:57 |
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| devananda | ++ | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: ++ | 20:57 |
| asalkeld | anteaya, ++ | 20:57 |
| anteaya | ttx or like not japan | 20:57 |
| anteaya | I want to go to japan | 20:57 |
| anteaya | but not many M's there | 20:57 |
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| ttx | Mitsubishi ? | 20:57 |
| russellb | the amount of answers i expect ttx to give about possible locations: 0 | 20:57 |
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| mikal | So... | 20:57 |
| ttx | russellb: you would be right | 20:57 |
| anteaya | ttx I smell a trademark issue | 20:57 |
| mikal | Did we just decide anything with the L summit? | 20:57 |
| annegentle | heh | 20:57 |
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| mikal | Tues - Fri was popular last time the community was asked | 20:58 |
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| ttx | mikal: I think Vancouver is traditional iirc Mon-Thu conference Tue-Fri Design Summit | 20:58 |
| ttx | I wasn't asked any question about it | 20:58 |
| mikal | Oh sorry | 20:58 |
| mikal | I have misunderstood | 20:58 |
| mikal | You're asking for M? | 20:58 |
| ttx | only thing I know iss that "I'll love the Design Summit area" | 20:59 |
| ttx | yes | 20:59 |
| mikal | Ahhh, ok | 20:59 |
| mikal | Well, I vote for the same as L then | 20:59 |
| mikal | Cause its what people are used to now | 20:59 |
| jeblair | anteaya: there are _tons_ of cities in japan that start with M | 20:59 |
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| ttx | ok, anything else, anyone ? | 20:59 |
| anteaya | jeblair: great, I'm glad my geography is poor | 20:59 |
| mikal | On more important issues, can we call the L release "Lemming"? | 20:59 |
| ttx | Oh, that's true, we can pick the L name | 20:59 |
| dhellmann | mikal: do they have those in vancouver? | 20:59 |
| anteaya | mikal: find a canadian city named lemming and you have a chance | 21:00 |
| russellb | Lemons | 21:00 |
| russellb | Liger | 21:00 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: no no lemmings in vanvouver | 21:00 |
| mikal | La di da | 21:00 |
| jeblair | anteaya: 75 according to wikipedia (and that's just cities) | 21:00 |
| anteaya | lauier | 21:00 |
| anteaya | jeblair: cool | 21:00 |
| mikal | No releases I can't pronounce please | 21:00 |
| ttx | ok, time is up | 21:00 |
| anteaya | laval | 21:00 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Oct 21 21:00:45 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-10-21-20.01.html | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-10-21-20.01.txt | 21:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-10-21-20.01.log.html | 21:00 |
| mikal | Heh, ttx rage quit | 21:00 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone | 21:00 |
| ttx | I know to stop a meeting when we start discussing names | 21:01 |
| mikal | Heh | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | haha | 21:01 |
| annegentle | hee | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | heh | 21:01 |
| mikal | Vote 1 Lemming! | 21:01 |
| jogo | any progress about finding a home for governance docs to be published | 21:01 |
| jeblair | "maple ridge" -> maple | 21:01 |
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| jeblair | ttx: you failed ^ | 21:01 |
| mikal | Given I was denied for "Herp Derp" | 21:01 |
| * dhellmann rushes over the cliff behind mikal | 21:01 | |
| jogo | ttx: ^ | 21:01 |
| jeblair | ttx: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Ridge,_British_Columbia | 21:01 |
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| jeblair | oh, oops, 'l' | 21:01 |
| zaneb | jeblair: off by one error | 21:01 |
| jeblair | quick we need to swap locations | 21:01 |
| ttx | dhellmann, morganfainberg, notmyname, eglynn, nikhil_k, thingee, asalkeld, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ? | 21:01 |
| mikal | Although I consider Kilo a win for sarcastic release names | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:02 |
| notmyname | here | 21:02 |
| eglynn | o/ | 21:02 |
| mestery | o/ | 21:02 |
| asalkeld | o/ | 21:02 |
| nikhil_k | o/ | 21:02 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, o/ | 21:02 |
| devananda | \o | 21:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Oct 21 21:02:22 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:02 |
| anteaya | jeblair: yeah I wanted maple too | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:02 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 21:02 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:02 |
| dims | o/ | 21:02 |
| ttx | (maple works because it's an element in the state flag) | 21:02 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:02 |
| ttx | We didn't have 1:1 syncs today (and won't have them next week either) | 21:03 |
| ttx | Those will be back after the summit. | 21:03 |
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| ttx | #topic M Design summit time span | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "M Design summit time span (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:03 | |
| ttx | First same question as I just asked TC | 21:03 |
| ttx | The M summit time span | 21:03 |
| ttx | That's the one after Vancouver, located in APAC, one year from now | 21:03 |
| ttx | The main conference will happen Tuesday - Thursday | 21:03 |
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| ttx | Monday will have Ops Summit, analyst day, and other pre-summit things | 21:04 |
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| ttx | Foundation staff needs to close on the contract and asks when should design summit be ? | 21:04 |
| ttx | We can do Tuesday - Friday, but then we fully overlap with the conference, which may impact the PTLs ability to present at the conference | 21:04 |
| ttx | We can do Wednesday - Saturday, but then... Saturday. Long week. TC didn't like that option that much | 21:04 |
| asalkeld | it's still the best option | 21:04 |
| ttx | We can do Monday, Wednesday-Friday (break on Tuesday), too. But feels weird. | 21:04 |
| mestery | -1 for Wed-Sat | 21:04 |
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| morganfainberg | agreed -1 for wed-sat | 21:05 |
| ttx | asalkeld: yes, Tc concluded Tue-Fri was probably best | 21:05 |
| anteaya | ttx ha ha ha (state flag) | 21:05 |
| eglynn | bleeding into the Sat will make it a long trip from Europe or the US | 21:05 |
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| dhellmann | standardizing on tue-fri seems like a good system | 21:05 |
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| asalkeld | ttx, another option is the dev sessions are m-f but just some mornings | 21:05 |
| mtreinish | I think Tues-Fri works fine | 21:05 |
| mestery | +1 for tue-fri | 21:06 |
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| eglynn | so +1 that we just live with the overlap and go with tue-fri | 21:06 |
| asalkeld | so have some half days | 21:06 |
| dhellmann | asalkeld: interesting | 21:06 |
| SergeyLukjanov | -1 for wed-sat | 21:06 |
| ttx | asalkeld: I fear we would end up doing a 5-day design summit | 21:06 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and IMO the tue-fri works good | 21:06 |
| dhellmann | asalkeld: I think the counter arg to that is monday is usually the operators day | 21:06 |
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| dhellmann | also what ttx said | 21:07 |
| ttx | i.e. we'd fill the "holes" with more design summit pods or off-discussions | 21:07 |
| ttx | and be dead on friday | 21:07 |
| eglynn | agreed on the hole filling | 21:07 |
| asalkeld | ok, just an idea | 21:07 |
| ttx | nature abhors void :) | 21:07 |
| asalkeld | you could lock the pods;) | 21:07 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, ++ for hole filling | 21:07 |
| ttx | I'll bring the feedback back to Lauren and Claire. not saturday, slight preference for Tue-Fri | 21:08 |
| SlickNik | +1 for hole filling as well. | 21:08 |
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| ttx | ok, moving on | 21:08 |
| ttx | #topic Juno release postmortem | 21:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Juno release postmortem (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:08 | |
| ttx | So... the release went generally well. | 21:08 |
| ttx | There were a bit more late respins than usual, with 5 projects doing a RC3 in the last days | 21:08 |
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| ttx | There was also a bit of a f*up in Glance, which started identifying release-critical bugs only after their RC1 drop | 21:09 |
| ttx | but this did not seriously affect the release | 21:09 |
| ttx | One interesting exercise is to look back at the "critical" bugs which justified the late respins, and ask why those were not detected by testing | 21:09 |
| ttx | If the issue is critical enough to justify a late respin, it usually should have been tested in gate in the first place | 21:09 |
| ttx | So those may just uncover significant gaps in testing... for example: | 21:10 |
| asalkeld | we are moving the functional tests in-tree (in Heat) - I am hopefully this will help our coverage | 21:10 |
| ttx | Cinder CHAP Authentication in LVM iSCSI driver: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128507/ | 21:10 |
| ttx | Cinder Unexpected cinder volumes export: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128483/ | 21:10 |
| ttx | Cinder re-attach a volume in VMWare env: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128431/ | 21:10 |
| ttx | Ceilometer recording failure for system pollster: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128249/ | 21:10 |
| ttx | Trove restart_required field behavior: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128352/ | 21:10 |
| ttx | Trove postgresql missing cluster_config argument: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128360/ | 21:11 |
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| SlickNik | Yes, this helped uncover some 3rd party testing holes for Trove, and we're looking to address those in Kilo. | 21:11 |
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| ttx | So in general, please have a look at your late proposed/juno backports and see if anything could have been done to detect that earlier | 21:11 |
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| eglynn | fair point | 21:11 |
| asalkeld | ok | 21:11 |
| jogo | how many of those were 3rd party tested? | 21:11 |
| mestery | ttx: Sounds good | 21:12 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, in sahara we're already working on adding a bunch of tests to cover it (doing it after each release) | 21:12 |
| ttx | jogo: maybe the reattac | 21:12 |
| ttx | ar | 21:12 |
| nikhil_k | good point, we've set up a plan for kilo to avoid this | 21:12 |
| jogo | ttx: as it sounds like we have a 3rd party CI quality control issue | 21:12 |
| ttx | the reattach volume in VMware env would belong in 3rd party, but the others were pretty much mainline tests imho | 21:12 |
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| jogo | ttx: ahh, reattach | 21:13 |
| ttx | Another theme which emerged are issues with default configuration files -- although I'm not sure how we can avoid those: | 21:13 |
| ttx | Ceilometer missing oslo.db in config generator: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/127962/ | 21:13 |
| ttx | Glance not using identity_uri yet: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/127590/ | 21:13 |
| jogo | ttx: maybe devstack tests? or something | 21:13 |
| jogo | testing the config files | 21:14 |
| asalkeld | do these project not have a sample config anymore? | 21:14 |
| ttx | jogo: in the glance case they were just using the deprecated options | 21:14 |
| eglynn | asalkeld: now generated (as opposed to static) | 21:14 |
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| asalkeld | i still like the review capablity that gives you | 21:14 |
| jogo | ttx: oslo-config has a error on deprecated config option | 21:14 |
| asalkeld | (of having it in the tree) | 21:14 |
| jogo | but I last I checked it broke | 21:14 |
| dhellmann | jogo: ? | 21:14 |
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| jogo | dhellmann: cause service to halt if a deprecated config option is used | 21:15 |
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| eglynn | asalkeld: yeah, definitely pros and cons to having it as static content in-tree | 21:15 |
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| dhellmann | jogo: I don't know about that one, is there a bug? | 21:15 |
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| jogo | dhellmann: I think so, let me lok | 21:15 |
| ttx | not sure how much of the "default config" we actually consume in tests | 21:15 |
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| ttx | anyway, that's the only "themes" I could see in the late issues in RCs | 21:16 |
| jogo | dhellmann: https://bugs.launchpad.net/oslo-incubator/+bug/1218609 | 21:16 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1218609 in oslo-incubator "Although CONF.fatal_deprecations=True raises DeprecatedConfig it is not fatal" [Low,Triaged] | 21:16 |
| eglynn | BTW how did the gate hold up during the RC period? | 21:16 |
| eglynn | ... flow rate seemed better behaved than during the milestones | 21:16 |
| ttx | Is there a significant issue that we just missed completely and is an embarassment in the release ? | 21:16 |
| eglynn | ... clearly the patch proposal rate was way down | 21:17 |
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| dhellmann | jogo: that bug makes it sound like apps are not correctly dying, but your comment earlier made it sound like they were dying when they should not | 21:17 |
| dims | right | 21:17 |
| ttx | I'm not aware of any really critical issue that we let pass in the release | 21:17 |
| ttx | but then, I'm no longer spending my days on Launchpad reports | 21:18 |
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| ttx | anything you know about ? | 21:18 |
| asalkeld | nothing major | 21:18 |
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| SlickNik | eglynn: The gate seemed to hold up fairly well — didn't notice any significant delays during the RC period. | 21:18 |
| jogo | dhellmann: yeah IMHO the fatal_deprecation should make things die | 21:18 |
| jogo | and they don't | 21:19 |
| SlickNik | nothing that I'm aware of either. | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | jogo: is the app catching that exception? | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | jogo: or are we just logging and not throwing an error? | 21:19 |
| eglynn | ttx: nope ... we have a known issue release noted, but not critical | 21:19 |
| eglynn | SlickNik: agreed | 21:19 |
| ttx | Anything else you want to report on the release process ? Something we did and we shouldn't have done ? Something we didn't do and should have done ? | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | jogo: looks like the traceback in the log in that bug is showing the exception being caught by the app | 21:20 |
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| dims | dhellmann: jogo: we should probably take that back to oslo channel :) | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | dims: yeah | 21:20 |
| eglynn | a question I've always wanted to ask about the release process | 21:20 |
| asalkeld | ttx to my newbie eyes it seemed to work well | 21:20 |
| * ttx braces for the shock | 21:20 | |
| eglynn | ... do the milestones have to be synchronized across all projects? | 21:20 |
| jogo | dims: yup | 21:21 |
| * eglynn asks in terms of mitigating the gate rush that kills us at every milestone | 21:21 | |
| ttx | so that would be a development cycle question | 21:21 |
| ttx | The idea behing it is to have a common rhythm | 21:21 |
| ttx | but then if we can't handle the load this community management artifact generates... | 21:21 |
| ttx | we could certainly get rid of it | 21:22 |
| asalkeld | eglynn to spread them you would have to release one every 2 to 3 days | 21:22 |
| asalkeld | lots of projects | 21:22 |
| ttx | It's important for virtual/global communities to have the same rites and rhythms, it's what makes us one | 21:22 |
| SlickNik | Also useful for things like dep freezes, and common freezes in general. | 21:22 |
| ttx | but it's always a tradeoff | 21:22 |
| eglynn | yeah just probing as to how "embedded" the synchronized milestone concept is | 21:22 |
| eglynn | (... in the release management culture) | 21:22 |
| ttx | and if the drawbacks outweigh the benefits... | 21:23 |
| ttx | frankly, it's only feature freeze which generates load issues | 21:23 |
| ttx | the first two milestones are pretty calm | 21:23 |
| asalkeld | ttx needs a holiday some time too | 21:23 |
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| ttx | We could stagger FF, but I'm not sure that would cure the load | 21:23 |
| eglynn | yeah, maybe better to mitigate that FF rush by more strictly enforcing the FPF | 21:24 |
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| ttx | that would certainly increase load on release management :) | 21:24 |
| ttx | eglynn: ++ | 21:24 |
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| ttx | anyway, let's move on | 21:24 |
| ttx | #topic Design Summit scheduling | 21:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Design Summit scheduling (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:24 | |
| eglynn | cool enough, looks like on balance it best to keep | 21:24 |
| ttx | At this point we only have Keystone schedule up on kilodesignsummit.sched.org | 21:24 |
| devananda | ironic schedule is basically done, i jus thaven't had time to post it yet | 21:25 |
| mikal | ttx: what's the deadline for that? | 21:25 |
| mikal | ttx: nova is basically done too | 21:25 |
| asalkeld | we are going through Heat's tomorrow this time | 21:25 |
| ttx | The deadline for pushing a near-final agenda is Tuesday next week (Oct 28) | 21:25 |
| ttx | So you should abuse your weekly meetings this week to come up with a set of sessions | 21:25 |
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| nikhil_k | we've a virtual/online mini-summit for glance, summit session finalizing would be done in there as well (Thurs 23/Fri 24) | 21:26 |
| morganfainberg | i need to check on the Ops summit details one of keystone's sessions might change. | 21:26 |
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| ttx | As far as the release management track goes, we don't have a specific meeting, so I'll discuss it here and now | 21:26 |
| ttx | we only have 2 sessions, and only two themes proposed | 21:26 |
| mestery | ttx: Neutron is almost done, we'll finalize tomorrow. | 21:26 |
| ttx | So we'll likely have one session on stable branch maintenance, and one on vulnerability management | 21:26 |
| ttx | No session on release schedule, since we decided that already on-list | 21:26 |
| ttx | (I know, we lose a traditional design summit slot) | 21:26 |
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| ttx | Everything else will get covered at the Infra/QA/RelMgt meetup on Friday. | 21:27 |
| ttx | I'll push the agenda for that tomorow probably | 21:27 |
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| ttx | Questions on the scheduling ? | 21:27 |
| david-lyle | any idea about per service operator session requests? | 21:28 |
| ttx | morganfainberg: any issue wrangling the scheduling website ? | 21:28 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, i've had no issues | 21:28 |
| morganfainberg | it's "just worked" for the most part | 21:28 |
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| ttx | david-lyle: they are definitely a good thing to have. Avoid overlap with Ops Summit session to maximize attendance | 21:28 |
| david-lyle | I have not seen any requests, Horizon found it valuable last time, so just schedule and hope they come? | 21:28 |
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| ttx | david-lyle: yes. Amybe brag about that session at the Ops Summit on Monday ? | 21:29 |
| ttx | there is a "Ops Summit: How to get involved in Kilo " session that sounds appropriate | 21:30 |
| asalkeld | when / how will the cross project session be descided | 21:30 |
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| eglynn | by the TC I think | 21:30 |
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| ttx | asalkeld: TC members are voting on the etherpad this week, feel free to add your opinion there as well | 21:31 |
| ttx | then Russellb and MarkMCClain were mandated to build the final schedule | 21:31 |
| asalkeld | yeah, i have added some things there | 21:31 |
| dhellmann | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-crossproject-summit-topics | 21:31 |
| ttx | shall be all set when we meet again next week | 21:31 |
| ttx | anything else on that topic ? | 21:32 |
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| asalkeld | all good | 21:32 |
| ttx | #topic Global Requirements, a practical case | 21:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Global Requirements, a practical case (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:32 | |
| ttx | At a previous meeting we had a discussion on global-requirements, and agreed that it was for integrated projects requirements and integrated-project-wanabee solving checken-and-egg issues | 21:32 |
| ttx | But dims raised the following review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128746/ | 21:32 |
| ttx | Sounds like a good practical example of a corner case | 21:32 |
| ttx | nova-docker driver was split out to stackforge but still wants to do nova-like testing to be able to merge back | 21:33 |
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| dims | here's a long writeup - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/managing-reqs-for-projects-to-be-integrated | 21:33 |
| ttx | Is that a valid requirements update case or not ? | 21:33 |
| mikal | So... | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | isn't the idea that they would sync on their own, not gate on requirements, and then seek to add any new requirements to the global list when they are re-integrated? | 21:34 |
| mikal | ironic has the same problem right? | 21:34 |
| dims | essentially we need a way to allow requirements jobs and dsvm jobs to work | 21:34 |
| mikal | Or is python-ironicclient in global reqs? | 21:34 |
| asalkeld | seems to me that docker is super important to openstack | 21:34 |
| devananda | mikal: ? | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | dims: no, I think you want to turn off the requirements gating for your repo | 21:34 |
| dims | dhellmann: dsvm jobs? | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | dims: do those fail, too? | 21:34 |
| dims | dhellmann: yep | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | dims: what's the failure condition? can't install something? | 21:34 |
| mikal | devananda: I'm trying to work out why this didn't come up for ironic | 21:34 |
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| dims | dhellmann: requirements/update.py just exits | 21:35 |
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| devananda | mikal: I'm not sure what the problem is (poorly tracing this meeting, sorry) | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | dims: does solum run dsvm jobs? | 21:35 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: non-integrated project with extra requirements | 21:35 |
| asalkeld | solum had this issue - solution: remove the project from project.txt | 21:36 |
| devananda | ironic has chosen not to list our 3rd party libs in requirements | 21:36 |
| dhellmann | asalkeld: does that fix the dsvm issue? | 21:36 |
| devananda | which leaves it up to operators/installers to pull those packages separately from requirements.txt | 21:36 |
| asalkeld | dhellmann, it then uses upstream pypi | 21:36 |
| devananda | and within each driver's __init__, it checks and gracefully fails if its lib isn't present | 21:36 |
| asalkeld | not the openstack restricted one | 21:36 |
| mikal | devananda: yeah, this is what drivers in nova do too | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | asalkeld: our ci mirror is fulll, so I think you're actually using the local mirror now | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | devananda: yeah, we do something like that in oslo.messaging, too | 21:37 |
| devananda | so far it has been fine for us | 21:37 |
| * dims notes that docker-py is an essential not optional dependency | 21:37 | |
| asalkeld | dhellmann, yeah - the logic could have changed | 21:37 |
| devananda | dims: essential for that driver. not for the whole project. right? | 21:37 |
| dims | devananda: right | 21:37 |
| mikal | dims: so is python-ironicclient if you want a working ironic in nova though | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | dims: that's fine, if you uncouple your project from the global requirements list fully it ought to work | 21:37 |
| devananda | dims: so it fals in the same category | 21:38 |
| devananda | dims: that makes it not a requirement, since what driver you use is a deploy-time option | 21:38 |
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| devananda | it's an external dependency of that particular configuration | 21:38 |
| asalkeld | devananda, well if docker-py was in requirements the heat could maybe put the container resource from contrib into heat proper | 21:38 |
| dims | dhellmann: unforunately the tempest-dsvm jobs fail | 21:38 |
| dims | devananda: not asking nova's requirement to have docker-py | 21:38 |
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| dims | devananda: asking global requirements to have docker-py | 21:39 |
| dims | which is different | 21:39 |
| devananda | dims: ahh ok | 21:39 |
| asalkeld | in this particular case i am suprised we dont' just add it | 21:39 |
| dhellmann | dims: ok, that's disconcerting, they shouldn't care about the requirements now. Do you have a log? | 21:39 |
| devananda | dims: i have no objection to projects that want to depend on docker syncing which version of docker-py they depend on | 21:39 |
| dims | dhellmann: there's a customer http client which is not good in nova-docker trying to use a well thoughtout library | 21:39 |
| devananda | that's the function of global req's -- syncing version deps | 21:39 |
| dhellmann | asalkeld: we could, but this is supposed to be working already, I think, and we will have other cases where that's not the right solution | 21:39 |
| devananda | I don't see a reason to reject a submission to global req's when projects want to use that to sync the version dep. but maybe I'm missing something? | 21:40 |
| asalkeld | sure | 21:40 |
| dims | dhellmann: there was an aborted attempt in february to switch to docker-py documented in the url above | 21:40 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: I may be misrepresenting sdague, but AIUI, he also wants that list to be an actual list of dependencies for openstack | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | of course that may change under a big-tent model | 21:41 |
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| dims | dhellmann: i've also documented a proposal to avoid adding to g-r using a flag sdague introduced | 21:41 |
| dims | in update.py | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | ok | 21:42 |
| dims | 43-49 lines | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | I'm a little lost because some of those comments seem unrelated and I'm only just now seeing this issue. | 21:42 |
| dims | apologies | 21:43 |
| dhellmann | where should I start reading to catch up? is there a ML thread, or bug or something? | 21:43 |
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| dims | dhellmann: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/managing-reqs-for-projects-to-be-integrated | 21:43 |
| asalkeld | can we go off line on this? | 21:43 |
| * dims nods | 21:44 | |
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| dhellmann | yeah, I think the issue there is the dsvm jobs should not be failing on extra requirements, but let's talk about it on the ML | 21:44 |
| dims | dhellmann: ack, will get the ball rolling | 21:44 |
| ttx | ok, so the take here is that they shouldn't need the global-requirements update ? | 21:44 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: I think it should only fail if the project is tracked in g-r | 21:45 |
| mtreinish | at least that was my understanding | 21:45 |
| asalkeld | yes | 21:45 |
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| dhellmann | mtreinish: yeah, so it may be a configuration issue then | 21:45 |
| dims | my only "requirement" is project be allowed to move forward till it gradutes :) | 21:45 |
| dhellmann | for the job | 21:45 |
| * dhellmann snorts at dims' pun | 21:46 | |
| dims | :) | 21:46 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:46 | |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 21:46 |
| asalkeld | ttx do we have nice big white board in paris? | 21:46 |
| asalkeld | for the dev sessions | 21:47 |
| notmyname | o/ | 21:47 |
| asalkeld | and esp. the friday session | 21:47 |
| eglynn | yeah good point | 21:47 |
| ekarlso | a/j openstack-meeting-3 | 21:47 |
| * eglynn hates little flip charts | 21:47 | |
| notmyname | ttx: I'm not particularly happy with how http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack/2014-October/010059.html was handled. who do I talk to about it? | 21:47 |
| ttx | asalkeld: the whiteboards are not "big" but there are several of them | 21:49 |
| asalkeld | ok thanks ttx | 21:49 |
| asalkeld | that's something | 21:49 |
| ttx | eglynn: the Flip charts double as whiteboards | 21:49 |
| ttx | notmyname: reading | 21:49 |
| * nikhil_k find Glance in the email topic | 21:49 | |
| ttx | notmyname: that would be the OSSG group. They are having a pTL election this week | 21:50 |
| notmyname | ttx: probably not enough time to read/digest in this meeting. but I'd like to address it | 21:50 |
| ttx | notmyname: so whovever wins shall get a nice email from you | 21:50 |
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| dhellmann | notmyname: was the swift team not involved or something? what's the background? | 21:50 |
| ttx | you can cc me. I don't technically oversee that grouyp though | 21:50 |
| fungi | notmyname: alternatively you can follow up on the openstack-security ml | 21:51 |
| fungi | notmyname: i gather the people who drafted and approved that text all gather there | 21:51 |
| notmyname | ok, the -security ML seems like a good starting place (rather than a response to the general ML for now) | 21:51 |
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| notmyname | dhellmann: only a little. and mostly I don't think the right issue was addressed | 21:52 |
| * dhellmann nods | 21:52 | |
| ttx | anything else before we close ? | 21:53 |
| notmyname | that, and that a resolution of "just use ceph instead of swift" was given as official openstack recommendation is annoying | 21:53 |
| * ttx reads again | 21:53 | |
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| dhellmann | that was one of several options, right? and it seemed like the most heavy-weight | 21:54 |
| ttx | That was indeed tactful | 21:54 |
| ttx | dhellmann: "Implementing an alternative back end (such as Ceph) will also remove the issue" feels a bit loaded | 21:54 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 21:54 |
| ttx | notmyname: yes, openstack-security sounds like the right avenue to discuss that | 21:55 |
| notmyname | especially since I think the issue is simply the different definition of "public" between glance and swift. not a security issue | 21:55 |
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| notmyname | thanks. I'll follow uo on the -security ML | 21:56 |
| ttx | ok then, let's close this | 21:56 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:56 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Oct 21 21:56:15 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:56 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-10-21-21.02.html | 21:56 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-10-21-21.02.txt | 21:56 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-10-21-21.02.log.html | 21:56 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone! | 21:56 |
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