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| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 3 08:00:16 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:00 |
| anteaya | if you are here for the third party meeting, do say hello | 08:00 |
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| anteaya | #endmeeting | 08:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 08:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 3 08:58:11 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-03-08.00.html | 08:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-03-08.00.txt | 08:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-03-08.00.log.html | 08:58 |
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| anteaya | #startmeeting nova-net-to-neutron-migration | 09:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 3 09:00:40 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 09:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 09:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_net_to_neutron_migration' | 09:00 |
| anteaya | hello | 09:00 |
| obondarev_ | hi | 09:00 |
| jlibosva | hi | 09:01 |
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| anteaya | hey oleg | 09:01 |
| anteaya | hi jlibosva | 09:01 |
| anteaya | ping gus belmoreira | 09:01 |
| belmoreira | hello | 09:01 |
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| anteaya | hey there | 09:01 |
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| anteaya | let's get going | 09:02 |
| anteaya | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova-nettoNeutronMigration | 09:02 |
| gus | hi | 09:02 |
| anteaya | our agenda is on there | 09:02 |
| anteaya | hey gus | 09:02 |
| anteaya | #topic the state of the Neutron spec (obondarev) | 09:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "the state of the Neutron spec (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:03 | |
| obondarev | ok | 09:03 |
| obondarev | so we have new revisions on both parts of spec, thanks to Angus | 09:03 |
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| anteaya | thank you gus | 09:03 |
| obondarev | no negative reviews which is good | 09:03 |
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| obondarev | but also lack of positive reviews which is not good | 09:04 |
| anteaya | well we have two from nova core | 09:04 |
| obondarev | the fist part is pretty close to merge as we have +1 from Joe and Michael from nova side | 09:04 |
| anteaya | so that is a start | 09:04 |
| anteaya | right, yay | 09:04 |
| obondarev | I think we need also positive marks from operators side and then neutron folks can finally approve | 09:04 |
| anteaya | cool | 09:04 |
| obondarev | the second part is not so close as some details still need to cleared | 09:04 |
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| obondarev | such as working with a mix of hypervisors on nova-network and neutron | 09:05 |
| obondarev | security groups handling in mixed mode | 09:05 |
| obondarev | new neutron api extension (needed or not) | 09:05 |
| obondarev | l3 level migration | 09:05 |
| anteaya | any questions on the latest round of spec patchsets from anyone present? | 09:06 |
| anteaya | nice summary obondarev | 09:06 |
| obondarev | anteaya: thanks | 09:06 |
| jlibosva | not from me | 09:06 |
| anteaya | okay so we need to get eyes on them then | 09:06 |
| anteaya | please review and tell your friends | 09:06 |
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| gus | I'll ping a few people who gave earlier comments and get them to re-review. | 09:07 |
| anteaya | I will also be tracking folks down | 09:07 |
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| anteaya | gus: great thank you | 09:07 |
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| anteaya | any more discussion needed for this topic? | 09:07 |
| belmoreira | obondarev: I'm looking into it again... but as operator is was fine for me last week | 09:07 |
| obondarev | belmoreira: yeah, thanks | 09:07 |
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| anteaya | let's move to implementation | 09:08 |
| anteaya | #topic the state of implementation (obondarev) | 09:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "the state of implementation (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:08 | |
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| anteaya | oleg again :) | 09:08 |
| obondarev | :) | 09:08 |
| obondarev | implementation is progressing as well | 09:08 |
| obondarev | jlibosva: can you please update on db migration? | 09:08 |
| anteaya | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/148260/ | 09:09 |
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| anteaya | jlibosva: are you available now? | 09:09 |
| anteaya | perhaps he got pulled away for a moment | 09:10 |
| anteaya | obondarev: do you want to go ahead with the proxy summary? | 09:10 |
| obondarev | ok | 09:10 |
| anteaya | thanks | 09:10 |
| obondarev | for nova-net proxy mode I've put a WIP on gerrit | 09:10 |
| anteaya | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/ | 09:10 |
| obondarev | the idea is to override network related objects in nova | 09:11 |
| jlibosva | I was afk for a while | 09:11 |
| obondarev | so that they use not db but neutron api to get/save data | 09:11 |
| obondarev | will continue to work on it | 09:11 |
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| obondarev | jlibosva: do you want to update on Db migration? | 09:11 |
| anteaya | obondarev: looks like your latest patchest is failing jenkins | 09:11 |
| gus | obondarev: it looks good so far, btw. I see you're building a up a list of what info needs to be constructed too, in case anyone is curious. | 09:11 |
| jlibosva | obondarev: yep | 09:12 |
| obondarev | gus: thanks, yeah, the list for networks is there | 09:12 |
| jlibosva | so I'm doing some final stuff on security groups and floating ips | 09:12 |
| obondarev | anteaya: I'll look what is failing | 09:13 |
| anteaya | obondarev: great thanks | 09:13 |
| anteaya | jlibosva: so it looks like right now you need more reviews | 09:13 |
| obondarev | jlibosva: cool! thank you | 09:13 |
| jlibosva | I'll send a new PS probably tomorrow, thanks Oleg for doing reviews | 09:13 |
| anteaya | jlibosva: ah okay | 09:14 |
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| anteaya | obondarev: and your patchset needs to pass jenkins and then get more reviews, yeah? | 09:14 |
| obondarev | anteaya: right | 09:14 |
| anteaya | okay so we are in a good place from our end | 09:15 |
| gus | anteaya: .. and be completed, of course ;) | 09:15 |
| anteaya | nice work obondarev and jlibosva | 09:15 |
| obondarev | gus: correct :) | 09:15 |
| anteaya | gus smart guy | 09:15 |
| anteaya | thank you | 09:15 |
| anteaya | let's move onto documentation | 09:15 |
| anteaya | #topic documentation (obondarev) | 09:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "documentation (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:15 | |
| obondarev | so I contacted emagana over email | 09:15 |
| anteaya | obondarev: thank you | 09:15 |
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| obondarev | he said he can start working on docs basing on the spec initially | 09:16 |
| anteaya | he can't make our meeting time | 09:16 |
| anteaya | great | 09:16 |
| obondarev | he'll tell me if he needs something else | 09:16 |
| anteaya | do we have a url of a wip patch? | 09:16 |
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| obondarev | not yet | 09:16 |
| anteaya | let's see if we can get one this week | 09:16 |
| anteaya | I don't care what is in the patch yet, I would just really like a url so we can all see where we are | 09:17 |
| anteaya | even if all we have is a title | 09:17 |
| anteaya | fair? | 09:17 |
| obondarev | anteaya: absolutely | 09:17 |
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| anteaya | obondarev: can you communicate that need to edgar? | 09:17 |
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| obondarev | anteaya: I can | 09:17 |
| anteaya | thank you | 09:18 |
| anteaya | also in here I have a bit | 09:18 |
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| anteaya | so the operators meetup is coming up | 09:18 |
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| anteaya | and to ensure the operators have a summary of our activity here | 09:18 |
| anteaya | I have asked sdague to make a report since he is going to be there | 09:19 |
| anteaya | he will represent the tc perspective | 09:19 |
| anteaya | so we just have to ensure he has the latest of what we have so he can present it | 09:19 |
| anteaya | since it will take a presentation for some folks to even be aware of our status | 09:20 |
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| anteaya | so I expect a flurry of questions after the meetup, most of which we have already answered | 09:20 |
| anteaya | but for which they haven't taken the time to look | 09:20 |
| anteaya | so any documention we have ready would be very helpful | 09:20 |
| anteaya | just for information sake | 09:21 |
| anteaya | any questions here? | 09:21 |
| obondarev | anteaya: thanks for the info | 09:21 |
| anteaya | great | 09:21 |
| anteaya | moving on | 09:21 |
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| anteaya | #topic testing (belmoreira) | 09:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "testing (belmoreira) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:21 | |
| anteaya | so any thoughts on testing this week? | 09:21 |
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| anteaya | are we close to having something to test? | 09:22 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: have you been pulled away? | 09:22 |
| belmoreira | in terms of testing I expect to start the proxy tests after some reviews | 09:22 |
| anteaya | here we are | 09:22 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: wonderful, thank you | 09:22 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: we look forward to your feedback | 09:23 |
| obondarev | the proxy is not ready for tests I'm afraid | 09:23 |
| anteaya | also in the neutron meeting of several hours ago, salvadore mentioned we should start testing the db migration | 09:23 |
| belmoreira | obondarev: yes, it needs to mature and pass through some reviews... | 09:24 |
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| anteaya | but no follow up to know if he was volunteering or just shareing his thoughts | 09:24 |
| obondarev | and to be finished ;) | 09:24 |
| anteaya | :) | 09:24 |
| anteaya | so for the specs, how are we doing framing the testing? | 09:24 |
| anteaya | any current concerns? | 09:24 |
| belmoreira | anteaya: the DB migration is more tricky for me... I expect to use the tool provided but I need to adapt it | 09:25 |
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| anteaya | belmoreira: great | 09:25 |
| anteaya | gus: have you the link to the github script the yahoo dev showed you? | 09:25 |
| gus | the tests have no hope of passing, but we could still start writing the functional/tempest/grenade tests though... test-driven development and all that. | 09:25 |
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| anteaya | gus: that is a good idea | 09:25 |
| gus | anteaya: one sec ... | 09:25 |
| anteaya | gus: thanks | 09:25 |
| anteaya | who would be avialble to start writing a test? | 09:26 |
| anteaya | you don't have to write all of them, let's just start with a test | 09:26 |
| anteaya | to get the ball rolling | 09:26 |
| gus | #link https://github.com/shraddha-pandhe/Tools/tree/master/NovaNetToNeutronMigration | 09:27 |
| anteaya | or do we need to collect more people? | 09:27 |
| anteaya | gus: thank you | 09:27 |
| anteaya | gus: can you take a minute and explain that script? | 09:27 |
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| anteaya | and how it came to exist | 09:27 |
| gus | spandhe gave spec feedback along the lines of "you can do this live with ...", I reinforced the "dumb" vs "smart" approach, and encouraged him to make his smart tool available for other people in his situation. | 09:29 |
| anteaya | her actually | 09:29 |
| gus | This looks like a good example of exactly that. | 09:29 |
| anteaya | I met her at the nova mid-cycle | 09:29 |
| gus | oh her, my apologies for gender assumptions. | 09:29 |
| anteaya | gus: cool thank you for the encouragement to her to take responsibility as well as the link to the script and the summary | 09:30 |
| obondarev | that's a nice thing to see | 09:30 |
| anteaya | at some point it would be great to have a licence on the repo, if someoen is talking to her before I do | 09:30 |
| anteaya | and yes, it is ideal in terms of the role we are playing | 09:30 |
| anteaya | we are taking responsibility for providing this much and are able to encourage and help operators do the rest to suit them | 09:31 |
| anteaya | so nice job all around here | 09:31 |
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| anteaya | belmoreira: would anything in shraddha's repo be of benefit to your use case? | 09:32 |
| gus | yes, I was happy to see how quickly she shared the script publicly once I suggested it. | 09:32 |
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| anteaya | :) | 09:32 |
| anteaya | she did attend last week's meeting, perhaps she will attend this meeting again in future | 09:32 |
| belmoreira | anteaya: maybe... | 09:32 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: great, if so I encourage you to chat with shraddha | 09:33 |
| anteaya | she seemed very approachable when I met her | 09:33 |
| anteaya | any more for testing? | 09:33 |
| anteaya | I'll move to open discussion now | 09:34 |
| anteaya | #topic open discussion | 09:34 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:34 | |
| belmoreira | anteaya: the use case that shraddha is describing is a little different from mine... I need to check | 09:34 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: fair enough | 09:34 |
| anteaya | does anyone have anything they wish to share that hastn' already been captured? | 09:35 |
| anteaya | if we are all chatted out I won't keep you | 09:35 |
| anteaya | thanks for your coninuted diligence and hard work | 09:35 |
| anteaya | I really appreciate it | 09:35 |
| anteaya | and we are progressing nicely | 09:36 |
| obondarev | thanks Anita | 09:36 |
| gus | thanks. | 09:36 |
| anteaya | so for next week, let's get as many reviews as we can | 09:36 |
| anteaya | and thank you all | 09:36 |
| obondarev | thanks everyone | 09:36 |
| anteaya | be free to do the next thing on your list | 09:36 |
| belmoreira | thans | 09:36 |
| anteaya | see you all next week | 09:36 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 09:36 |
| jlibosva | thanks, bye | 09:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 09:36 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 3 09:36:57 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 09:37 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-03-09.00.html | 09:37 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-03-09.00.txt | 09:37 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-03-09.00.log.html | 09:37 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 3 15:00:28 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:00 |
| edleafe | o/ | 15:00 |
| alex_xu_ | o/ | 15:00 |
| bauzas | \o | 15:01 |
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| n0ano | OK, let' | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | OK, let's start | 15:02 |
| * n0ano ' and return are too close | 15:02 | |
| lxsli | o/ | 15:02 |
| edleafe | n0ano: or your fingers are too fat | 15:02 |
| * bauzas like a and tab for a french kb | 15:02 | |
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| n0ano | edleafe, I never thought of that :-) | 15:03 |
| n0ano | #topic remove DB access spec | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "remove DB access spec (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:03 | |
| edleafe | unfortunately, not a lot of follow-up after the midcycle | 15:03 |
| n0ano | edleafe, I see activity on this, I think most of the outstanding comments are kind of implementation details, how do you feel about it | 15:03 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I left a review, sorry for the short notice | 15:03 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: I had no big issues but I think you need to address 2 points | 15:04 |
| edleafe | I'm wondering if this is going to be possible at all | 15:04 |
| alex_xu_ | I just comment on some more small thing, I didn't have any big concern | 15:04 |
| edleafe | If the spec isn't approved yet, I don't see how we're going to get all the changes that would be needed in by the FF | 15:04 |
| bauzas | edleafe: agreed | 15:05 |
| n0ano | edleafe, I haven't given up yet and we can provide help on the changes | 15:05 |
| bauzas | edleafe: that doesn't mean you can't land a patch | 15:05 |
| edleafe | alex_xu_: yes, I responded to your comments | 15:05 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: because most of the stuff has been agreed | 15:05 |
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| n0ano | what bauzas said | 15:06 |
| edleafe | bauzas: I can probably land a patch or two, but I see several patches needed to get these changes in | 15:06 |
| bauzas | edleafe: my comments are implementation details that would have come up in a review y'know :) | 15:06 |
| edleafe | Just changing the compute node stuff to be versioned will be fun | 15:07 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I don't think so | 15:07 |
| n0ano | bauzas, hence my comment on implementation details | 15:07 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I mean for adding a new col | 15:07 |
| bauzas | n0ano: so we're in violent agreement eh ? | 15:07 |
| n0ano | bauzas, yet again | 15:07 |
| edleafe | bauzas: you don't think that there will be discussion over how to best do this? | 15:07 |
| edleafe | it is a very new thing to be adding versioning to the database | 15:08 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: keep it simple* | 15:08 |
| bauzas | edleafe: just add a col and that's it | 15:08 |
| bauzas | edleafe: that's just a migration script of 4 lines to write | 15:08 |
| bauzas | 2 for upgrading and 2 for downgrading | 15:09 |
| edleafe | bauzas: I know how to do it; it's answering the questions that will come up over *why* | 15:09 |
| n0ano | adding the column is easy as long as the usage of that column is simple | 15:09 |
| bauzas | edleafe: eh, that's in the spec | 15:09 |
| n0ano | edleafe, I think we thrashed that out at the meetup so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone | 15:09 |
| bauzas | edleafe: so prepare your patch, do your series and once we're good to go with the spec, we can fire your patches | 15:10 |
| edleafe | n0ano: I hope your | 15:10 |
| edleafe | ugh | 15:10 |
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| edleafe | I hope you're right | 15:10 |
| * n0ano refuses to comment on fat fingers | 15:10 | |
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| edleafe | n0ano: Oh, I know just how fat my fingers are | 15:10 |
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| * bauzas sizing his fingersz | 15:11 | |
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| n0ano | I think our way forward is fairly simple... | 15:11 |
| bauzas | agreed | 15:11 |
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| n0ano | 1. edleafe to address the minor issues with the spec | 15:11 |
| n0ano | 2. work on the patches | 15:12 |
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| bauzas | 3. grab coffee and fix CI | 15:12 |
| n0ano | 3. update the DB with the new version column (address any concerns that come up) | 15:12 |
| edleafe | ...profit!! | 15:12 |
| n0ano | 4. declare success | 15:12 |
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| bauzas | 5. iterate over the previous 4 | 15:13 |
| n0ano | bauzas, +1 | 15:13 |
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| n0ano | I think we're all in agreement here, let's move on | 15:13 |
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| n0ano | #topic detach service from computenode | 15:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "detach service from computenode (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:13 | |
| n0ano | bauzas, this is yours | 15:13 |
| bauzas | so I was greedy | 15:13 |
| bauzas | I already discussed that with jaypipes | 15:14 |
| bauzas | but let me explain again here | 15:14 |
| alex_xu_ | heh, I already know the story | 15:14 |
| edleafe | me too | 15:14 |
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| bauzas | so, virt drivers report a list of nodes | 15:14 |
| n0ano | alex_xu_, edleafe keep bauzas honest | 15:14 |
| bauzas | Nova is taking this list of nodes per service and provides a ComputeNode resource for each | 15:15 |
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| alex_xu_ | n0ano: yes, sir | 15:15 |
| bauzas | the problem is when the virt driver is reporting something non-local, like a cluster | 15:15 |
| bauzas | then you could have duplicate records for the same resources if 2 or more drivers would report the same list | 15:16 |
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| bauzas | so jaypipes gave his feeling that it's not supported, period. | 15:16 |
| bauzas | and asked me to do my homework | 15:16 |
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| jaypipes | bauzas: lol | 15:17 |
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| n0ano | what's not supported, a cluster reporting duplicate nodes or reporting a cluster at all? | 15:17 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: technically, I'm not at home now :) | 15:17 |
| * alex_xu_ is thinking about english question, period means 1 release cycle, or 2...or 3? | 15:17 | |
| bauzas | alex_xu_: period means "that's it" | 15:17 |
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| n0ano | alex_xu_, he means it's definitely nt supported | 15:17 |
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| n0ano | s/nt/not | 15:18 |
| lxsli | alex_xu_: with no plans to add support | 15:18 |
| bauzas | n0ano: it's not supported to see more than 1 compute node reporting the same set of resources | 15:18 |
| alex_xu_ | oops... n0ano, lxsli, thanks | 15:18 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, your mean 2 compute nodes reporting the same set of resources, right? | 15:19 |
| bauzas | n0ano: indeed | 15:19 |
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| n0ano | which is fine but is there a way to guarantee this won't happen? | 15:19 |
| bauzas | n0ano: that's my point, I just think this thought needs to be further appreciated with regards to what will be a resource in the next future | 15:20 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: saying that a unique identifier for a compute node is its hypervisor_hostname makes it more understandable IMHO | 15:20 |
| n0ano | then, to summarize, there's no issue now and we need to make sure we don't create this issue in the future. | 15:21 |
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| alex_xu_ | about nova-compute ha, I remeber it is discussed at juno summit https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-nova-clustered-hypervisor-support but don't know what result | 15:21 |
| alex_xu_ | jaypipes: can I ask why you didn't want to support that? | 15:21 |
| bauzas | n0ano: well, there is a workaround for Ironic | 15:22 |
| bauzas | n0ano: so yes that's not technically an issue, but that just conceptually sucks | 15:22 |
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| bauzas | on one hand, we want to bail out the relationship with services, but on the other hand, we keep this as a tuple element for an unique key | 15:23 |
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| jaypipes | alex_xu_: because a) it's a distraction to our current work and b) it changes the model of how Nova failure zones are structured and how Nova considers the ownership of resources. | 15:23 |
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| n0ano | jaypipes, a) is most important to me, especially as this doesn't seem lose any significant capability | 15:24 |
| bauzas | a) is not a problem with an opensource model | 15:24 |
| n0ano | bauzas, a) is an issue for development, no matter what the model | 15:25 |
| alex_xu_ | jaypipes: thanks for the answer | 15:25 |
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| alex_xu_ | failure zones means what? | 15:25 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: the model supposes a constrained number of resources | 15:25 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: I can't accept we shouldn't at least identify how to fix it because we're considering ourselves as distracted | 15:26 |
| n0ano | bauzas, old saying - 9 women can't create a baby in 1 month, unlimited resources doesn't necessarily help | 15:26 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, I have no problem looking at the issue and thinking of solutions as long as we don't block current work based on that | 15:27 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: I think I have other things that are more blocked than this one... | 15:28 |
| bauzas | n0ano: like the requestspec obj BP... | 15:28 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, which is why I would have qualified jaypipes `period' with `period for now' | 15:28 |
| bauzas | ok, then let's move on | 15:29 |
| jaypipes | alex_xu_: failure zones == the acceptable surface of failure. in nova-compute's case, it means that a failure of one nova-compute daemon will affect only the ability to change resources on just the local node the nova-compute worker is running on. | 15:29 |
| bauzas | everybody is aware of the limitation now, and we consider it as non-blocker | 15:29 |
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| jaypipes | alex_xu_: and since Ironic and the clustered hypervisor managers (HyperV and VMWare) changed the notion of a failure zone from local node to local cluster, that was A Bad Thing. | 15:30 |
| n0ano | bauzas, would you quit typing my thoughts faster than me :-) | 15:30 |
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| alexpilotti | jaypipes: not hyperv :) | 15:30 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I wish I could | 15:30 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: VMWare ;) | 15:30 |
| jaypipes | alexpilotti: hyperv is not a clustered hypervisor? | 15:30 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: hell no | 15:31 |
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| alex_xu_ | jaypipes: thanks again :) | 15:31 |
| n0ano | anyway, let's move on | 15:31 |
| n0ano | #topic statu on cleanup work | 15:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "statu on cleanup work (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:31 | |
| bauzas | n0ano: so I have a blocker thing on ReqSpec BP | 15:32 |
| n0ano | basically, is there any issues with current patches that we want to talk about | 15:32 |
| n0ano | bauzas, go for i | 15:32 |
| n0ano | s/i/ist | 15:32 |
| n0ano | s/ist/it | 15:32 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: it was raised during midcycle but I heard no clear outcome | 15:32 |
| bauzas | n0ano: so basically my whole series got -1 because of the Instance obj being use | 15:33 |
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| bauzas | used | 15:33 |
| bauzas | n0ano: that, I can understand | 15:33 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: but I still need to provide an Image object | 15:33 |
| bauzas | and the problem is about the properties field of that object, which is very versatile | 15:33 |
| bauzas | n0ano: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/146913/ | 15:34 |
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| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/76234 is being requested to merge instead | 15:35 |
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| bauzas | everybody agrees on that ? | 15:35 |
| bauzas | my proposal was to write a first bump of the Image object with the unversioned properties field, and bump it to 1.1 with the above patch | 15:36 |
| jaypipes | I would prefer to get 76234 in before. | 15:37 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: just saw the patch series, ok, let's wait for it | 15:37 |
| edleafe | bauzas: jaypipes: agreed | 15:37 |
| n0ano | bauzas, not having looked at 76234, does it negate your patch or do you just need to use it after it lands | 15:37 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I could use it | 15:38 |
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| n0ano | looks like there's activity on it so, if we all in agreement, let's just wait for it to land and then proceed | 15:38 |
| bauzas | n0ano: my only fear is that this patch couldn't be merged before FF | 15:38 |
| bauzas | n0ano: in that case, it would postpone my series up to L | 15:39 |
| bauzas | n0ano: as it's not a priority patch | 15:39 |
| n0ano | bauzas, since the scheduler work is priority and will depend upon this patch we can make a plea in the nova meeting to prioritize this patch | 15:39 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: makes sense | 15:40 |
| bauzas | n0ano: ok, let's move on then | 15:40 |
| n0ano | sounds good | 15:40 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:40 |
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| n0ano | anyone have anything new for today? | 15:40 |
| lxsli | jaypipes: how's that numatopology please? | 15:40 |
| jaypipes | lxsli: running tests locally now after rebasing and fixing conflicts. should be up within half an hour. | 15:41 |
| lxsli | \o/ hooray \o/ | 15:41 |
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| n0ano | I'm hearing crickets, I'm about to close this | 15:42 |
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| bauzas | cool | 15:42 |
| n0ano | OK, tnx everyone, we'll meet here again next week | 15:42 |
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| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:42 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 3 15:42:54 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:42 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-03-15.00.html | 15:42 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-03-15.00.txt | 15:42 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-03-15.00.log.html | 15:42 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: amaretskiy meeting | 17:03 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, hi | 17:03 |
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| amaretskiy | hi | 17:03 |
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| andreykurilin | hey! | 17:03 |
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| rvasilets_ | hi | 17:04 |
| olkonami | hi all | 17:05 |
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| boris-42 | hey hey | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | #topic Rally API | 17:07 |
| boris-42 | #startmeeting Rally | 17:07 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 3 17:07:52 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:07 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:07 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:07 |
| boris-42 | #topic Rally API | 17:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rally API (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:08 | |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: you are welcome | 17:08 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, Yep | 17:08 |
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| msdubov_ | So we have merged the first patch that adds the new API classes https://review.openstack.org/#/c/149597/ | 17:08 |
| msdubov_ | Those are going to be used instead of pure methods | 17:09 |
| msdubov_ | So that the API gets more structures | 17:09 |
| msdubov_ | *structured | 17:09 |
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| msdubov_ | The old API is now marked as deprecated | 17:09 |
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| msdubov_ | We are going to switch the Rally internals to the new API in https://review.openstack.org/150468 | 17:09 |
| msdubov_ | Finally, we will remove the old API in Rally v.0.1.0 (now we are working on v0.0.2) | 17:10 |
| msdubov_ | eom | 17:10 |
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| msdubov_ | boris-42, ^ | 17:12 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: great | 17:12 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: so what about moving objects under API? | 17:12 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42: I think we should implement the get() and list() methods in API | 17:13 |
| msdubov_ | It will look then much more consistent | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: yep seems good | 17:13 |
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| boris-42 | okay any questions? | 17:13 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Murano base | 17:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Murano base (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:14 | |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: hey there | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: so what is the status of those patches? | 17:14 |
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| rvasilets_ | I was working on it. I have done everything from my side except unit tests. Today I have tolking with Murano team and they disappionted why it's not working | 17:16 |
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| rvasilets_ | I have submit patch to gerrit and they are romise to see in logs of murano what is going | 17:18 |
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| boris-42 | rvasilets_: lol | 17:18 |
| rvasilets_ | Now I get error "Invalid json response...." | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: probably we caught some bug | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: in Murano | 17:18 |
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| boris-42 | rvasilets_: so I think we should finsih and merge those patches | 17:18 |
| rvasilets_ | That meen that murano is broken | 17:19 |
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| boris-42 | rvasilets_: lol | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: maybe lol | 17:19 |
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| rvasilets_ | Why? - I don't now | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: it happens with programs | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: usually they are broken, it's hard to make then not broken lol | 17:19 |
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| rvasilets_ | Ok, I would write units and submit it | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: yep nice | 17:19 |
| rvasilets_ | eom | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: thanks for update | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | #topic Stop on SLA failures | 17:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Stop on SLA failures (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:20 | |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: please one more time=) | 17:20 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, with pleasure! | 17:20 |
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| msdubov_ | boris-42 Okay our idea is that it would be continue to be able to stop scenario execution when the SLA for it fail - even before all the iterations have finished | 17:21 |
| msdubov_ | to do that, we have implement 2 things: | 17:21 |
| msdubov_ | 1) ScenarioRunner.abort() method | 17:21 |
| msdubov_ | That's in https://review.openstack.org/151678 | 17:21 |
| msdubov_ | 2) Iterative SLA checks - so that they check SLAs after each iteration of benchmark scenarios, and still have linear complexity | 17:22 |
| msdubov_ | I'm working on that here: https://review.openstack.org/152459 | 17:22 |
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| msdubov_ | There also is a new parameter to the "rally task start" command that introduces this "stop on SLA failure" mode: --stop-on-sla-failure | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: tooolong | 17:23 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, One problem I see about the whole thing is that it's not quite clear how to implement the iterative "failure_rate" SLA check | 17:23 |
| msdubov_ | because the failure rate actually changes from iteration to iteration | 17:23 |
| msdubov_ | and we may abort a scenario when it's too early | 17:23 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: we are not interested in whole amount of results | 17:23 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: if current amount of errors is bigger then something stop | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: that'sall | 17:24 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, I see, but if the first iteration is an error, then failure rate = 100% and we will stop, but next iterations may be perfectly OK | 17:24 |
| msdubov_ | I think we should start those checks after a few iterations | 17:24 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: It can be parametrized | 17:25 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, in the task file? | 17:25 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, or better in CLI? | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: in sla failure rate | 17:25 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: but it will be dirty | 17:25 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: I would prefer for now | 17:26 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: just to stop | 17:26 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, Ok! | 17:26 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, Then what is left for me are unit tests and a couple of corrections in the code | 17:26 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: sure nice | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: let's get it in | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | any questions? | 17:27 |
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| boris-42 | okay let's move | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | #topic HMTL reports making them scale | 17:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "HMTL reports making them scale (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:29 | |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: any news? | 17:29 |
| amaretskiy | I'm currently working on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/146814/ | 17:29 |
| amaretskiy | this patch set is set back to WIP | 17:29 |
| amaretskiy | in order to rework it and implement chunks | 17:30 |
| amaretskiy | so I'm going to rework plot.py completely so task processing will be using chunks generator | 17:30 |
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| amaretskiy | and we will have ability to process huge data | 17:31 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: nice so any progress on it/ | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | ? | 17:31 |
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| amaretskiy | of course, this is patch set is related to plot part only, so another part is update in objects.task.Task.get_results() - this should return chunks generator | 17:32 |
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| amaretskiy | i think some results (WIP) will be tomorrow | 17:32 |
| amaretskiy | eom | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: ok | 17:34 |
| boris-42 | #topic Rally task validate refactoring | 17:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rally task validate refactoring (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:35 | |
| boris-42 | oh there is no Oleg.... | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: msdubov_ did you take a look at patches? | 17:35 |
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| msdubov_ | msdubov_, Not yet, but I've planned that for the evening | 17:36 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, ^ | 17:36 |
| amaretskiy | I reviewed this patch yesterday, now we have new patch set | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: ok | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: thanks | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | #topic One Plugin base | 17:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "One Plugin base (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:36 | |
| boris-42 | Okay guys I didn't have enough time to continue work on it | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | But Olga send on review one patch | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | that changes servers providers and deploy engines | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | so I think I will update tonight that patch | 17:37 |
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| boris-42 | and hopefully we will be able to go forward=) | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | and I will be able to rework verfication mechanism | 17:38 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42, Nice. I've commented your patch, it misses a couple of files | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: thanks | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | I saw I will fix | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | I was quite ill when I was writting that=) | 17:38 |
| msdubov_ | lol | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | so mistakes are possible=) | 17:38 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Free disucssion | 17:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Free disucssion (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:39 | |
| boris-42 | do we have something to discus? | 17:39 |
| amaretskiy | no | 17:39 |
| olkonami | boris-42, I have some proposal to switch to plugins base, part 2 | 17:39 |
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| olkonami | for deploy engines, serverproviders and scenario classes into get_name method are used cls.__name__ | 17:40 |
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| olkonami | so to avoid put decorator @plugin.plugin with the actual class name for all such classes | 17:40 |
| olkonami | I propose revrite in get_name method of Plugin class | 17:40 |
| olkonami | return getattr(cls, "_plugin_name", None) to return getattr(cls, "_plugin_name", cls.__name__) | 17:40 |
| boris-42 | olkonami: so don't touch scenarios | 17:40 |
| olkonami | so if we set name with decorator, we will use it, otherwise we will use name of class | 17:40 |
| boris-42 | olkonami: they are quite differnet from everything else | 17:40 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami: I would prefer to have unified and explicit way to set names | 17:41 |
| olkonami | not scenario methods, scenario class | 17:41 |
| boris-42 | olkonami: get_name() will return both | 17:41 |
| boris-42 | olkonami: depending on name | 17:41 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami: so as i am saying it's quite different from others | 17:41 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami: about Engines, ServerProviders it's better to use plugin.plugin(name=) approach cause it's simpler for end users | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | and newbies to understand | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | cause it's unclear why cls.__name__ should be the name of plugin | 17:42 |
| olkonami | boris-42, ok | 17:43 |
| olkonami | but also also I don't like name plugin.plugin for decorator, I think it's a bit misunderstanding | 17:43 |
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| olkonami | I prefer smth like plugin.set_name | 17:43 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami: and what if our plugin.plugin will set new parameters? | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | olkonami: not only name? | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | olkonami: but version and so on | 17:44 |
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| olkonami | boris-42, than I prefer smth like plugin.set_params, becouse we have class Plugin and decorator plugin and when I looked at that first, I was confused | 17:46 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami: maybe just plugin.set? | 17:48 |
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| olkonami | boris-42, deal :) | 17:50 |
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| msdubov_ | boris-42, I also like this name | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | olkonami: ok I think it's not a big deal to rename it | 17:50 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami: msdubov_ ok I will rename it | 17:51 |
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| boris-42 | it's not hard because we didn't switch yet to it | 17:51 |
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| boris-42 | okay any other topics to disucss? | 17:51 |
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| boris-42 | okay let's end meeting | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 17:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:53 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 3 17:53:43 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:53 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-03-17.07.html | 17:53 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-03-17.07.txt | 17:53 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-03-17.07.log.html | 17:53 |
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| dolphm | o/ | 18:00 |
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| bknudson | dolphm: hi | 18:01 |
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| breton | heya | 18:01 |
| amakarov | hi! | 18:01 |
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| henrynash | it’s that time again… | 18:01 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | o/ | 18:01 |
| raildo | \o/ | 18:02 |
| lhcheng | o/ | 18:02 |
| dolphm | is there a morganfainberg? | 18:02 |
| stevemar | o/ | 18:02 |
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| breton | he was doing stuff with bugs some minutes ago | 18:03 |
| stevemar | morganfainberg, ping | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | ping for meeting: dolphm, ayoung, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods, amakarov, ajayaa, hogepodge, breton, lhcheng, nonameentername, samueldmq, htruta, amolock | 18:04 |
| dstanek | png | 18:04 |
| amakarov | o/ | 18:04 |
| rodrigods | here | 18:04 |
| marekd | aloha | 18:04 |
| dstanek | errr...pong | 18:04 |
| stevemar | agenda is here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:04 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 18:04 |
| ajayaa | o/ | 18:04 |
| gyee | no daylight saving time changes after groundhog day right? :) | 18:04 |
| dolphm | stevemar: start it | 18:04 |
| bknudson | we're all hung over from groundhog day | 18:04 |
| henrynash | it’s my ear that’s really hurting | 18:05 |
| stevemar | #startmeeting | 18:05 |
| openstack | stevemar: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee' | 18:05 |
| stevemar | #startmeeting keystone-meeting | 18:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 3 18:05:26 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone-meeting)" | 18:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone_meeting' | 18:05 |
| gyee | henrynash, so you were the one with a top hat :) | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | there we go | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | stevemar, thanks | 18:05 |
| bknudson | nice! | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | henrynash, go ahead sir | 18:05 |
| dolphm | Uhh restart with just 'keystone' | 18:05 |
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| morganfainberg | yeah #endmeeting | 18:05 |
| dolphm | logs are dependent | 18:05 |
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| morganfainberg | and then restart | 18:05 |
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| henrynash | ook, so first one is (hopeflly) an easy one | 18:06 |
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| stevemar | #endmeeting | 18:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:06 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 3 18:06:05 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:06 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone_meeting/2015/keystone_meeting.2015-02-03-18.05.html | 18:06 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone_meeting/2015/keystone_meeting.2015-02-03-18.05.txt | 18:06 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone_meeting/2015/keystone_meeting.2015-02-03-18.05.log.html | 18:06 |
| stevemar | #startmeeting keystone | 18:06 |
| *** spredzy is now known as spredzy|afk | 18:06 | |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 3 18:06:14 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:06 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:06 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | there we go | 18:06 |
| stevemar | my bad | 18:06 |
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| henrynash | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151939/ | 18:06 |
| bknudson | what's the topic? | 18:06 |
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| * morganfainberg was off in LP release management zone and missed the alarm for the meeting | 18:06 | |
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| henrynash | idea is to allow a cloud provider to disable the ability of clients to store extra attributes with their SQL entities | 18:06 |
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| joesavak | o/ | 18:07 |
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| krtaylor | o/ | 18:07 |
| bknudson | is somebody asking for it? | 18:07 |
| stevemar | #topic Allow disabling of SQL extra attribute storage | 18:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Allow disabling of SQL extra attribute storage (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:07 | |
| henrynash | right now, people could be storing PII data….and the cloud provdier woulldn’t even know it | 18:07 |
| topol | o/ | 18:07 |
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| jamielennox | o/ | 18:07 |
| henrynash | we already (effectively) allow you to disable it with LDAP (since you have to provide a mapping)…. | 18:07 |
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| henrynash | ..but for SQL, you can;t turn it off | 18:08 |
| bknudson | I'd rather the identity backend went away | 18:08 |
| bknudson | use federation | 18:08 |
| henrynash | would be “enabled” by default, for backward compatibilty | 18:08 |
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| henrynash | this is also true for assignments and resources | 18:08 |
| marekd | bknudson: ++ | 18:08 |
| rodrigods | federation ftw | 18:08 |
| henrynash | bknudson: don’t disagree | 18:08 |
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| bknudson | I will disagree! | 18:09 |
| topol | henrynash what is the advantage. When would you recommend to a stakeholder to turn it off? | 18:09 |
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| bknudson | j/k | 18:09 |
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| topol | I get the PII argument but are there others? | 18:09 |
| henrynash | unless you know your clients are doing this, we would advsie them to turn it off | 18:09 |
| gyee | henrynash, so we are going to disallow MacDonald to give out toys for kid meat because kids are getting fat? | 18:09 |
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| dolphm | so, you're mostly talking about extra user attributes? | 18:09 |
| bknudson | off by default? | 18:09 |
| henrynash | they could be storeing laubounded data sets | 18:09 |
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| topol | gyee only in your state :-) | 18:10 |
| henrynash | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151939/ | 18:10 |
| dstanek | henrynash: is this for only identity or for all of the models that use extra? | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, i would like to see this for *all* models not just PII on user | 18:10 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:10 |
| henrynash | dstanek: so I think we want to the option for all entities, I’m open if it needs to be a single flag, or one each or identity, assignment etc. | 18:11 |
| dstanek | i don't think keystone should act as a cloud providers makeshift redis | 18:11 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, exactly | 18:11 |
| jamielennox | it's always been something that i hated about our SQL backend, it'd be nice to remove the 'extra' with a view to deprecate it | 18:11 |
| amakarov | so anything using extra is to be updated? | 18:11 |
| bknudson | seems easy enough and it would help deployers be a bit more secure... hopefully it's implemented such that it's easy to maintain. | 18:11 |
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| henrynash | no changes to teh SQL models would occur this these proposal…we’d just disable the read/write of it | 18:11 |
| jamielennox | also stick with a single for now and see if anyone wants in more granular | 18:11 |
| dolphm | bknudson: i imagine all the existing code could still run, but if extra != '{}' on create or update then 400? | 18:12 |
| henrynash | we’d leave it for out-of-band work for cloud provdier if they want to delete existing stored extra data | 18:12 |
| amakarov | what profig gives 'extra' now and what do we offer instead? | 18:12 |
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| amakarov | s/profig/profit/ | 18:12 |
| bknudson | this might mess with our JSONSchema validation code. | 18:12 |
| henrynash | dolphm: that was probably my only question…would we silently drop and extra data provdied, or error | 18:12 |
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| dstanek | error | 18:13 |
| amakarov | henrynash, redelegation uses extra now | 18:13 |
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| jamielennox | henrynash: if it's opt in then i think drop is acceptable | 18:13 |
| dolphm | henrynash: maybe that's a secondary option, but as a client i'd rather be alerted via 400 | 18:13 |
| gyee | if 'extra' is not in the spec, then its a fair game | 18:13 |
| bknudson | the config option could be "drop", "error", etc. | 18:13 |
| henrynash | bknudson: interesting…. | 18:13 |
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| henrynash | gyee: extra has never been in the spec as far as I know | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | i *think* extra was in the spec somewhere. | 18:14 |
| dolphm | henrynash: it's also easy to enable this with lbragstad's jsonschema work -- there's an any_other_attribute thing that's enabled somewhere | 18:14 |
| topol | "i don't think keystone should act as a cloud providers makeshift redis" Great quote by dstanek! | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | but it wasn't pervasive | 18:14 |
| dstanek | henrynash: does this only add a config option or are you thinking that we would actually remove the field using migrations? | 18:14 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, was or is? | 18:14 |
| dolphm | henrynash: i don't think extra is in the spec either | 18:14 |
| henrynash | dstanek: just the config option….would not remove the SQL data | 18:14 |
| dolphm | any spec | 18:14 |
| lbragstad | henrynash: dolphm https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/assignment/schema.py#L39 | 18:14 |
| bknudson | if it's not in the spec then it's just behavior that we have to preserve. | 18:14 |
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| morganfainberg | topol, https://twitter.com/MdrnStm/status/562675595633774592 | 18:15 |
| dolphm | lbragstad: ++ | 18:15 |
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| henrynash | bknudson: absolutely…we KNOW peopel do use it in some circumsatnces | 18:15 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:15 |
| gyee | lets do this | 18:15 |
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| dolphm | henrynash: ++ | 18:15 |
| topol | morganfainberg LOL! Im retweeting | 18:15 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, metacloud made/makes extensive use of extra values | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | (cc cburgess ^ not sure if you're still doing that) | 18:16 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: which is why default option is no change | 18:16 |
| cburgess | I'm here.. | 18:16 |
| cburgess | Yeah we still use extra values. | 18:16 |
| bknudson | we could have a config option where you can provide extra jsonschema for each resource type. | 18:16 |
| cburgess | We are still using the self service code you are familiar with. | 18:16 |
| henrynash | long term, we want people to write out-of-tree extensions that catch notifications to store their own data | 18:16 |
| stevemar | henrynash, i'm not seeing a lot of net positive in dropping the extra bits | 18:16 |
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| topol | for a hybrid cloud, if part has extrat atrib8utes enabled and part does not will interoperability be impacted??? | 18:17 |
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| cburgess | Its probably not the end of the world for us if it goes away. Means we have to write our own migration for that data when we hit the cliff of its going away in the DB. | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | topol, not really | 18:17 |
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| henrynash | stevemar: long term, I don’t think we want keystone to be storing the data…we want peopel to extend keystone with tehir own code to store their own data…this is a first step on that path | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | extra values are *mostly* just redis with a bad name | 18:18 |
| gyee | topol, if its not in the spec, then there's no interoperability concern | 18:18 |
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| bknudson | I also get concerned that we have all these config options that make their cloud work differently and who knows if anybody uses them. | 18:18 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, actually i'd go a step further - we don't want people to extend keystone | 18:18 |
| cburgess | That being said I would prefer not to have to do extra work but we don't always get what we want. | 18:18 |
| topol | morganfainberg, good. Was hoping that was the case. But had to ask. even if it involved the QOTD | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | i'd rather see that data be stored externally and referenced when needed | 18:18 |
| stevemar | bknudson, yeah, agree with that | 18:18 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, like roll your own damn IdP :) | 18:18 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: true…we want them to add theit own code that might inteact with keystone (via notifcations) if their data needs to be tied to keystone entiytes | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | it really isn't keystone's job to store "blob of whatever you shoved in" | 18:19 |
| stevemar | default and deploy | 18:19 |
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| bknudson | the problem is developers wind up coding to the defaults. | 18:19 |
| cburgess | morganfainberg: You are killing me here.... :P | 18:19 |
| lbragstad | sounds like time for another survey! | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | cburgess, i am trying to make your life exciting! | 18:19 |
| breton | how many people participated in the previous ones? | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | breton, exceedingly small numbers | 18:19 |
| bknudson | it's not like we can stop deployers from disabling extras already... just edit the code. | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | the LDAP identity one had the best response. | 18:20 |
| gyee | bknudson, we prefer monkeypatch | 18:20 |
| henrynash | so all this proposal does is allow us to stop doing this, but the default is “current fucntionality”….is there any arguement at least about taking at least that first step | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | so - i think the right answer here is [unfortunately] not getting rid of extras short of a V4 API. | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | i would like an option to turn those off. | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | and/or look at moving the data into not being wedged into the model | 18:21 |
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| morganfainberg | but we wont ever (again short of API version) be able to rid ourselves of extra since it is an actively used feature | 18:21 |
| gyee | ver ver ver v4! | 18:21 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: v4 api will have the same issues where data would already be stored in extra and you have to choose how to represent it | 18:21 |
| marekd | are there any plans fo v4 actually? | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, nope. part of the migration would be "extra doesn't exist, use something else" | 18:21 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, no | 18:21 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ok. | 18:21 |
| gyee | don't start no shit now | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | and i will go on record here and say not just no, hell no. | 18:22 |
| dolphm | v5 ftw | 18:22 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: I agree….we can’t actually take away extra yet] | 18:22 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: a new version is not a migration | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | but v5 | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, yes it can be | 18:22 |
| lbragstad | micro versioning! | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, feature X doesn't exist in new version | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, don't use it. | 18:22 |
| dolphm | lbragstad: v2015.02.03 | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, products do that all the time | 18:22 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: not if v3 has taught us anything, if you don't provide what they want in v4 people will continue to use v3 | 18:22 |
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| bknudson | let's all just forget that v4 ever happened. | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, but we're not doing v4 | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | we're off topic | 18:22 |
| jamielennox | we don't get to roll out a new server, v3 and v4 are just views onto the same data | 18:22 |
| henrynash | ok, let’s decide on this one…and move on! | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, we can't rid ourselves of extras | 18:23 |
| bknudson | who's going to review it? | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, sorry | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | we can make it better | 18:23 |
| henrynash | all we are proposing here is: allow an option to disable storing it | 18:23 |
| henrynash | not to remove extra | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | we can unwedge it from the models and we can allow people to disable it | 18:23 |
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| bknudson | if you can find 2 cores to review it then go ahead. | 18:23 |
| jamielennox | henrynash: i'm good with it as an option that we can start pushing people towards | 18:24 |
| cburgess | morganfainberg When you said unwedge what does that mean? | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | but as much as we hate it - it can't go away because it is being used. we might want to offer operators a way to define a schema for it | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | cburgess, right now extra is a json blob on say "user", make it not be an icky json bobl on the user row | 18:24 |
| henrynash | morganfaiberg: you don’t think we can provide an option to disable yet? | 18:24 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, we can. but just expect no one to ever use it | 18:24 |
| cburgess | How would data migrations work for that? | 18:25 |
| topol | definitely cant take away. But can recommend you don't use | 18:25 |
| dolphm | henrynash: do you have customers that would immediately use the feature? | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | cburgess, same way migration works today. doesn't change the API jsut how we store for more efficient use of storage | 18:25 |
| cburgess | You want to just migrate the blob as it to another table and do a reference to it then? | 18:25 |
| cburgess | Just trying to predict what a migration would look like for us. | 18:25 |
| bknudson | so... one concern was already raised that we actually store real data in extras... | 18:25 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: sounds like a Keystone -> redis bridge - is that really what you want to do? | 18:25 |
| dolphm | cburgess: that wouldn't solve henrynash's concern | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | cburgess, right now - no migration ;) | 18:25 |
| bknudson | e.g., something with trusts and also email, etc. | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, shhhh | 18:26 |
| bknudson | I don't know what all might be in there | 18:26 |
| henrynash | dolphm: not specific names ones…other than customer who are always asking “can I control whether PII info is stored" | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, we should move all attributes we rely on / claim in the spec - as top level columns etc | 18:26 |
| cburgess | So during an upgrade the deployers would have to have a script to do the data migration? | 18:26 |
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| bknudson | I don't want to rely on email. | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | cburgess, SQL migrate would handle if we did this | 18:26 |
| cburgess | Ahh ok sorry was confused. | 18:27 |
| gyee | cburgess, how can we migrate if we don't even know what's in extra? | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, if it isn't part of the spec - it can shove it in extras - it is arbitrary data. | 18:27 |
| stevemar | we're approaching the half way marker and there are 3 other topics, we should set time aside for those too | 18:27 |
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| henrynash | (and I thought this was an easy one!) | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, i think the option is fine | 18:28 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: i'd rather just document a pair of queries - "what extra data is in my db?" and "delete all the extra data in my db" along with the option to prevent keystone from using extra any further | 18:28 |
| cburgess | gyee That was kind of my point. If you go changing extras you have to migrate whats there as a blob because its completely unstructured from a keystone perspective today. | 18:28 |
| bknudson | we can add comments to the spec. | 18:28 |
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| morganfainberg | just expect that no one will in practice use it. meaning there will be an edge case of customer who wants it | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | but most wont care | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | please move further comments to the spec | 18:28 |
| bknudson | adding options that nobody can use just makes our job harder. | 18:29 |
| gyee | cburgess, which mean its a mess any way you cut it :) | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | stevemar, next topic | 18:29 |
| stevemar | #topic Email as a first class attribute | 18:29 |
| bknudson | (like debug=False!) | 18:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Email as a first class attribute (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:29 | |
| morganfainberg | gyee, cburgess, bknudson, please continue conversation on spec / -keystone channel post meeting | 18:29 |
| henrynash | ok, now this one is contentious | 18:29 |
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| gyee | ++ | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, short - what is the usecase. | 18:30 |
| dolphm | inverse of previous topic: promote PII to first class attribute | 18:30 |
| bknudson | some people have multiple email addresses. | 18:30 |
| dolphm | bknudson: most* | 18:30 |
| marekd | ++ | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, everyone? | 18:30 |
| stevemar | bknudson, dolphm but only one per domain | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | even my parents have more than one email each | 18:30 |
| dstanek | i see the next topic is about a 1st class email, but we may also need to address any other data the Keystone stores in extra | 18:30 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: have requests from customer to “filter by email address”…where tehir users names are NOT email | 18:31 |
| dolphm | dstanek: we're on that topic now | 18:31 |
| bknudson | use ldap | 18:31 |
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| dstanek | dolphm: i know i typed that up and topol distracted me :-) | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, i reaaaaaly don't want to make the SQL identity store more featureful unless we need to. | 18:31 |
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| gyee | you may have multiple email address, but are you allow more than one when you register with a cloud provider? | 18:31 |
| henrynash | and right now we support email (or mention it in specs) a BIT….so we are bit conflicted…we need to push it one way or the other | 18:32 |
| stevemar | dstanek, keep your head in the game | 18:32 |
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| morganfainberg | i kindof hate that we store any PII in keystone as part of the spec. | 18:32 |
| jamielennox | henrynash: if it's mentioned in the spec it shouldn't be extra from the sense of disabling extra | 18:32 |
| stevemar | henrynash, is the customer using sql or ldap? | 18:32 |
| gyee | jsavak, does RAX allow multiple emails during registration? HPCS does not | 18:32 |
| henrynash | stevemar: I don’t actually remember…but I think LDAP | 18:32 |
| amakarov | 1 email as id per user instance is a common practice... | 18:33 |
| dolphm | gyee: sort of? | 18:33 |
| henrynash | stevemar: and our LDAP moduel DOES support email address mapping | 18:33 |
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| jsavak | gyee - no we don't. We have a separate service for "contacts" outside of keystone for address, phone, email, etc | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, we might as well make it consistent between backends. but ugh | 18:33 |
| dolphm | jsavak: but there's also sub account or child accounts or whatever | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, subaccount would be a separate account no? | 18:33 |
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| gyee | dolphm, but those are per account right? | 18:33 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: and I think some of examples in the API spec show email being returned ! | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | meaning i email <-> i account | 18:33 |
| amakarov | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:34 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: yeah, it's basically separate users in keystone land (someone correct me if i'm wrong) | 18:34 |
| jsavak | dolphm - correct - those are additional identities with less authorization to access to the same cloud-account's tenants. | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, sure make it a 1st class column. | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | consistent between abckends and the spec | 18:34 |
| * morganfainberg cries a little. | 18:34 | |
| gyee | cries?!! | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | i wish email wasn't in the spec ;) | 18:35 |
| gyee | but wait, are we going to encrypt it? | 18:35 |
| jamielennox | it's mentioned from the shell when creating users as well | 18:35 |
| bknudson | 18:35 | |
| gyee | its PII afterall | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, not my problem. | 18:35 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: i don't actually remember that landing | 18:35 |
| stevemar | bknudson, oh thats great | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, :P | 18:35 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, at least provide a hook to encrypt it? | 18:35 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, if it's in the spec (API) and supported we need to probably make it 1st order | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | if it's not in the spec we can make it disappear from examples | 18:36 |
| henrynash | gyee: which is why the spec says it should be a) optional, and b) there should be a config option to disable its storage | 18:36 |
| * morganfainberg checks | 18:36 | |
| gyee | a plugin or some sort? | 18:36 |
| amakarov | +1 to encrypting stored emails | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | yep | 18:36 |
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| morganfainberg | it's only in examples | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | we could make it all disappear | 18:36 |
| gyee | henrynash, *optional* first class attribute doesn't sound right | 18:36 |
| bknudson | so is the identity / SQL backend now open to any kind of changes? | 18:37 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: which is why I said we are “conflicted a BIT”…since it is not in the spec, but is in the exaples, the client and teh LDAP options | 18:37 |
| dstanek | amakarov: if you encrypt the email you can't filter on it | 18:37 |
| dolphm | gyee: like description? | 18:37 |
| bknudson | I thought we rejected features for identity in the past... | 18:37 |
| bknudson | e.g., password policy | 18:37 |
| cburgess | If you encrypt email addresses please make that configurable so that "None" is a valid option. | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, if we called it out as an attribute | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i was going to say we need to fix it | 18:37 |
| gyee | dolphm, ah you're right | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | in this case i say we remove it from our examples | 18:37 |
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| bknudson | maybe this is a bug and not a feature? | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | keystone should not use pii. | 18:37 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, a doc bug it looks like now | 18:38 |
| amakarov | dstanek, and if you not you risk to expose it to some smart guy with a spam cluster :) | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | i thought it was claimed as an attribute | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | i was wrong | 18:38 |
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| gyee | man this rabbit hole is getting deeper | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, cc ^ | 18:38 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: it is a VERY common user attribute for mapping from LDAP to corproate stores | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, we should *not* be mapping email. | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | and we should remove it from our examples | 18:38 |
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| morganfainberg | but we can't break people | 18:38 |
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| morganfainberg | but the right answer is don't put PII in keystone. | 18:38 |
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| morganfainberg | soryr to flip, my mistake for thinking one thing about the spec vs reality | 18:39 |
| amakarov | dstanek, it still possible to filter by encrypted email: encrypt and filter :) | 18:39 |
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| morganfainberg | amakarov, i don't want to layer that in | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | amakarov, at all | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | i'd rather go to the operators and say "sorry we can't support this" and take the flames/yelling | 18:39 |
| amakarov | morganfainberg, I understand | 18:39 |
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| morganfainberg | than need to handle PII properly *in* keystone | 18:39 |
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| gyee | amakarov, its call homomorphic encryption I think | 18:40 |
| amakarov | morganfainberg, mb as a hook? | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | if it was part of our spec "aka: user create . email address" as an attribute my stance would be we need it | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | amakarov, no. | 18:40 |
| dstanek | amakarov: only if you are encrypting wrong and not using a salt or we would have to store all of the salts separately | 18:40 |
| gyee | basically allow searches on encrypted fields | 18:40 |
| bknudson | if operators shouldn't store PII in keystone then that should be documented somewhere... | 18:40 |
| henrynash | morganfaiberg: so I’m actually OK with not stoting in SQL…but it is a very common requirement to map via LDAP….I just don;t think we can say, you can’t do that | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ | 18:40 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, we should *not* break ldap, but we should document don't store PII in keystone and remove it from all the examples (email) | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, and it should not be made first-order in sql. | 18:41 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: and the client? | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, i would also document that using the email map is a bad idea. email == username makes it a different class of data | 18:41 |
| jamielennox | does PII include name? | 18:41 |
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| gyee | jamielennox, depends on who you ask | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, i think we can fudge on name if needed - it's grey | 18:42 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, client should not specifically require/call out email but we can't break compat. | 18:42 |
| bknudson | that's why I use a made-up name. | 18:42 |
| amakarov | dstanek, agreed, I cant imagine filter with a salt... | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i KNEW your real name wasn't brant! | 18:43 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: i wondered about 'brant' | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, same deal as LDAP | 18:43 |
| stevemar | bknudson, it's been brent this whole time | 18:43 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, don't remove it - but it shouldn't be called out as available specifically | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | or in examples | 18:43 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: ok…so only issue is filtering when using LDAP…I’ll think on that one…but otherwise we clean up examples etc. | 18:44 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, fix filtering in the filtering fix spec. | 18:44 |
| stevemar | next? | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, and we know SQL identity sucks on some filtering | 18:44 |
| henrynash | argeed…ok, I yield teh floor! | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | stevemar, go go next | 18:44 |
| stevemar | #topic Barbican backend for Keystone Credential API | 18:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Barbican backend for Keystone Credential API (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:44 | |
| gyee | \o | 18:44 |
| gyee | so two issues | 18:44 |
| stevemar | gyee, arunkant ^ | 18:45 |
| gyee | 1) we need to pass the user token to barbican | 18:45 |
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| bknudson | this is another credential backend, in addition to what we have already? | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, yep, known workflow for *things* in OpenStack | 18:45 |
| gyee | 2) we need individual user token for migration if we are going to support migration | 18:45 |
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| bknudson | do we need auth_token in front of keystone then? | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, no magic migration. | 18:45 |
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| gyee | bknudson, yes, use Barbican | 18:45 |
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| bknudson | I have no problem with this as long as it's optional... barbican isn't integrated. | 18:46 |
| gyee | bknudson, no, we'll need to change the policy to allow self-management of credentials | 18:46 |
| gyee | right now only admin can access the credential APIs | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | gyee: does barbican have it's own credential store | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | like raw for ssh keys and whatever | 18:46 |
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| gyee | jamielennox, barbican is a credential store | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, magic migration from service -> other service is always painful and if anything should be done via a side-band script not the API | 18:47 |
| bknudson | gyee: what if the user doesn't provide a token? (e.g., client cert) | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, no "magic" migration needing user tokens. | 18:47 |
| gyee | bknudson, no token, no love | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | gyee: right - i mean that isn't specific to a certain credential type - you can put anything in our credentials | 18:47 |
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| stevemar | jamielennox, which is probably not a good thing for our credentials API | 18:48 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, sure, we can call that out in the spec | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, you can make a barbican-manage or keystone-to-barbican that can leverage the SQL models etc. but not worth trying to use the REST API for migration. | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, bad idea - because once you flip the bit to use the new driver how do you access the old data? or vice-versa | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | i'm wondering if we can't just turn our credential store off (by config) if barbican is in the deployment | 18:48 |
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| gyee | jamielennox, our credential API is very generic right now | 18:48 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson we don't need auth_token in front of keystone, technically auth_context does most of the same stuff w/o the "go talk to keystone" bits. | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, and we do store the token in the token_model | 18:49 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:49 |
| bknudson | nice thing about auth_token is now it gives you an auth plugin. | 18:49 |
| bknudson | maybe we could get that in keystone's auth_context. | 18:49 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, we can make keystone credential API "read-only" | 18:49 |
| gyee | or configurable | 18:49 |
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| gyee | and users manages their credential using barbican rest API | 18:50 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, sure. we should retrofit some of that into auth_context (actually we need to break up auth_token into consumable bits that keystone can put into auth_context) | 18:50 |
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| jamielennox | bknudson: we do need to come up with ways of sharing between auth_token and auth_context | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, hm, sounds like we don't need a credential api then! | 18:50 |
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| morganfainberg | gyee, no magic migration using rest. i'll -2 that really fast. | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: that was where i was going | 18:50 |
| stevemar | morganfainberg, it's pretty useless right now | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | stevemar, agreed | 18:50 |
| gyee | so no barbican integration then? | 18:50 |
| bknudson | deprecate it and say use barbican? | 18:51 |
| stevemar | bknudson, ++ | 18:51 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: ++ | 18:51 |
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| Haneef | morganfainberg: but heat uses it in current form | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, uh can we do that? | 18:51 |
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| stevemar | i think thats the path we want in the end, not sure how feasible that is, especially since it's an incubator project still | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | Haneef, we can fix that | 18:51 |
| jamielennox | Haneef: these things never go away instantaneously (or ever) | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | stevemar, big tent | 18:51 |
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| morganfainberg | ok this is a TC issue... i think | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | we're back to deprecate API | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | for *service* | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | erm superseded by *other service* | 18:52 |
| stevemar | i think so | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | this is harder to do right and there are no real guidelines that are clear | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | ideally we should get heat and other things to use barbican | 18:52 |
| bknudson | nova is trying to deprecate their apis. | 18:53 |
| gyee | its easy to *say* deprecating stuff, not so easy to do ;) | 18:53 |
| bknudson | e.g., for glance and neutron | 18:53 |
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| morganfainberg | then credential api becomes like LDAP assignment | 18:53 |
| bknudson | so I don't think it's a new thing. | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | limited use and we can deprecate | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | but for now we can't deprecate. | 18:53 |
| lbragstad | 7 minutes left | 18:53 |
| gyee | fact is deployer wants secure storage of credentials | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, fact deployer should use barbican | 18:53 |
| stevemar | morganfainberg, you have an item to take this up with the tc? | 18:54 |
| mordred | deployer should just put them in a file owned by root | 18:54 |
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| * mordred shuts up | 18:54 | |
| gyee | heh | 18:54 |
| jamielennox | gyee: i'd vote no for the barbican backend, and put work into fixing nova heat etc to move away from the keystone credential store | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | gyee we should fix the stuff that *used* credential to use barbican as appropriate. | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, and get heat moved over to barbican | 18:54 |
| Haneef | jamielennox: +1 | 18:54 |
| stevemar | morganfainberg, there we go | 18:54 |
| bknudson | we might be asked to provide a barbican backend to make migration easier. | 18:54 |
| stevemar | ha | 18:55 |
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| gyee | k, k | 18:55 |
| stevemar | 5 minutes left, i'm going to next topic | 18:55 |
| stevemar | #topic Request for PowerKVM platform CI to comment on Keystone patches | 18:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Request for PowerKVM platform CI to comment on Keystone patches (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:55 | |
| stevemar | krtaylor, ping | 18:55 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | krtaylor, sorry for the short time | 18:55 |
| krtaylor | Hi all | 18:55 |
| krtaylor | np | 18:55 |
| krtaylor | background, we (PowerKVM) turned on comments for the Keystone testing that we are doing on our platform | 18:55 |
| krtaylor | we started commenting on keystone patches without asking first, that was probably rude of us, but it is now turned off | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | so the real quick question is: what are you testing where keystone voting will benefit from PowerKVM scoring? | 18:56 |
| lbragstad | is there anything you expect keystone to break on powerkvm? We don't have anything virt specific | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | afaik powerkvm is only nova-related? | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | lbragstad, exactly | 18:56 |
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| krtaylor | it would be commenting only, I don't expect that we would ever vote | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | again, what are we solving with the comments? | 18:57 |
| krtaylor | powerkvm is a platform, not a driver or hypervisor | 18:57 |
| lbragstad | would we be able to look at the code after a failure? | 18:57 |
| krtaylor | we test on a different architecture | 18:57 |
| dolphm | i appreciate the desire to test all integrated projects on a specific platform, but i would never appreciate a -1 on a keystone patch from powerkvm as i imagine that would only ever be a transient error | 18:57 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:57 |
| krtaylor | with a different toolchain, different dependencies | 18:57 |
| gyee | dolphm ++ | 18:57 |
| krtaylor | agreed | 18:57 |
| krtaylor | we would not vote | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | krtaylor, ok so i think i don't understand powerkvm well enough and what you're building | 18:58 |
| stevemar | if db2 is included as part of the tools, instead of mysql, i could see the benefit; not sure if thats the case | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | krtaylor, my only real concern is noise to signal | 18:58 |
| dolphm | so, IF powerkvm votes, a +1 would be maybe useful as a smoketest? krtaylor what would you comment on, otherwise? | 18:58 |
| krtaylor | as always, it can be turned on/off with the toggle button at the bottom of the comments | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | is there *ever* a case where a failure from powerkvm will result in useful data to us? or a success? | 18:58 |
| krtaylor | here is an example of our commenting | 18:59 |
| krtaylor | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152550/ | 18:59 |
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| stevemar | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| lbragstad | so if something fails on powerkvm | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 3 19:00:01 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | krtaylor, that looks like a wiki change? | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-03-18.06.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-03-18.06.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-03-18.06.log.html | 19:00 |
| stevemar | go to -keystone to continue the discussion | 19:00 |
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| lbragstad | to -keystone | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | krtaylor, to #openstack-keystone with this so -infra can do their thing | 19:00 |
| krtaylor | morganfainberg, yes, I would think so, if we found some problem with endianness for example | 19:00 |
| clarkb | o/ | 19:00 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:00 |
| AJaeger | o/ | 19:00 |
| * fungi smells a wumpus^H^H^H^H^H^Hmeeting | 19:00 | |
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| jesusaurus | o/ | 19:00 |
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| mrmartin | o/ | 19:00 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 3 19:01:02 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
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| ianw | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link completely unverified agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:01 |
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| jeblair | #link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-01-27-19.06.html | 19:01 |
| fungi | we can have a completely unverified meeting to go along with it | 19:01 |
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| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| mordred | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | i'm going to skip zaro's action item and talk about it later... | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | but project renames! | 19:02 |
| jhesketh | Morning | 19:02 |
| jeblair | were done | 19:02 |
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| fungi | yep | 19:02 |
| mordred | woo! | 19:02 |
| jeblair | did anyone write an oslo.version patch for governance? | 19:02 |
| fungi | we attic'd those projects something fierce | 19:02 |
| fungi | i did not, but will now | 19:02 |
| jeblair | i saw annegentle wrote one for the api projects | 19:02 |
| jeblair | fungi: cool, thx | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Swift logs) | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Swift logs) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| yolanda | hi | 19:03 |
| jeblair | i think the partial console download problem is solved, yeah? | 19:03 |
| clarkb | yup | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | and we're dogfooding a devstack job now | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | clarkb found and jhesketh fixed a ux problem with the sorting in the index | 19:04 |
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| clarkb | has the sort change merged yet? I need to review it if now | 19:04 |
| clarkb | s/now/not/ | 19:04 |
| AJaeger | clarkb: https://review.openstack.org/152346 | 19:04 |
| jeblair | so next steps are to merge that, wait for image updates, check it out, and then maybe roll out to more jobs? | 19:04 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/152346 | 19:05 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:05 |
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| AJaeger | clarkb: not merged | 19:05 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: I think possibly remove old school logging from the dg tempest jobs to rely only on the swift logs | 19:05 |
| clarkb | jeblair: and that can happen while we roll out to other jobs too | 19:05 |
| jeblair | clarkb: ok | 19:05 |
| jhesketh | +1 | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | cool, anythig else for swifty logs? | 19:06 |
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| jhesketh | Also I'd like to thank clarkb for all his hard work finding bugs, fixing things and rolling out new images as we've been working on it for the last 6ish months! | 19:06 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:06 |
| jeblair | (it feels like we're nearing the end!) | 19:06 |
| AJaeger | yeah! | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (puppet module split) | 19:07 |
| clarkb | jhesketh: no problem, you did the hard stuff | 19:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (puppet module split) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:07 | |
| jhesketh | Yep, I think we're very close now. Just switching over and discovering edge cases | 19:07 |
| jeblair | speaking of the end... | 19:07 |
| pleia2 | \o/ | 19:07 |
| jeblair | this is the last meeting for this topic! | 19:07 |
| jeblair | asselin is on vacation, but says: | 19:07 |
| jhesketh | (and other assets that aren't logs such as tarballs and docs) | 19:08 |
| jeblair | "Sprint DONE, fun & successful! " | 19:08 |
| pleia2 | it was really great to use Storyboard for task assignments, I think it went really smoothly | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | "Huge thanks to everyone who helped submit patches, review, and prepare. " | 19:08 |
| jesusaurus | pleia2: agreed | 19:08 |
| jeblair | and i agree with him | 19:08 |
| jeblair | and pleia2 | 19:08 |
| jhesketh | +1 | 19:08 |
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| * mordred is sad he missed it - but was really impressed seeing all the stuff happen | 19:08 | |
| nibalizer | ya its huge | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | i wonder if it would be worth sending an email to the list describing our experiences with virtual sprints | 19:09 |
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| mordred | totally | 19:09 |
| jeblair | we've had 2 so far and i think they've been great | 19:09 |
| pleia2 | I can draft something in an etherpad | 19:09 |
| fungi | and lack of need for videoconferencing ;) | 19:09 |
| mordred | we invited midcycles - maybe we can help invent not-midcycles too | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | the third-party folks had one too for docs; we could ask them how theirs went | 19:09 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:09 |
| * pleia2 nods | 19:10 | |
| jeblair | (also, they probably came up with changes for us to review :) | 19:10 |
| jeblair | pleia2: that would be cool, thanks! | 19:10 |
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| pleia2 | yeah, they had a tag for their sprint too | 19:10 |
| clarkb | they work really well. Probably good to just have everyone agree to focus on a specific task over a couple days | 19:10 |
| jeblair | #action pleia2 draft summary email about virtual sprints | 19:10 |
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| clarkb | and have an organized way to go about it | 19:10 |
| jeblair | i really like the #sprint channel | 19:10 |
| jeblair | being able to ignore -infra is very helpful | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | i'd love it if we could figure out a way to make the gerritbot configuration for that easier | 19:11 |
| dstanek | jeblair: i'd really like to hear about the virtual sprints so i can contrast it with my mid-cycle experiences | 19:11 |
| jeblair | that's the only thing i thought was missing | 19:11 |
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| jhesketh | Agreed. I think some handover of a sprint between timezones is also quite helpful. I was able to help out a lot more on this one thanks to jeblair bringing me up to speed before logging off for the night | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | dstanek: ++ | 19:12 |
| jeblair | jhesketh: good point. it's probably best to try to plan that out too. | 19:12 |
| jhesketh | Yep | 19:12 |
| jeblair | jhesketh: maybe instead of just signup, we should do signup with hours | 19:12 |
| fungi | dstanek: my #1 favorite thing about virtual sprints... no sitting on airplanes | 19:12 |
| dstanek | fungi: ++ | 19:13 |
| fungi | and #2, no staying in hotels | 19:13 |
| pleia2 | so probably have a "helpful tips" section, which includes having handoffs, clearing your schedule (ignore -infra) and using a gerrit topic for all changes | 19:13 |
| mordred | jeblair: what about "gerritbot give me a sprint channel for X hours" - and it either hands you one or makes a new one | 19:13 |
| fungi | gerritbot make me a sandwich^Wsprint | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | mordred: well we also have the #openstack-sprint channel logged, so that would be coordinated too | 19:14 |
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| mordred | yah | 19:14 |
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| jeblair | it's just that to put gerritbot in there currently means 2 (possibly substantial) changes to project-config | 19:14 |
| jeblair | that might just end up being a wishlist item for gerritbot-next-gen | 19:14 |
| fungi | i think if gerritbot ever gets a rewrite, yeah | 19:15 |
| mordred | oh - yeah - I was thinking a gerritbotv2 feature | 19:15 |
| jeblair | ah k | 19:15 |
| fungi | register the list of project names associated with a given sprint (maybe as a regex) | 19:15 |
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| mordred | for an etherpad-like "give me a channel" thing | 19:15 |
| fungi | anyway, fodder for a spec | 19:15 |
| mordred | so you get #openstack-sprint-aslekn34 | 19:15 |
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| mordred | or something | 19:15 |
| * mordred gesticulates wildly, then falls over | 19:16 | |
| jeblair | mordred: (chanserv registration mumble mumble) | 19:16 |
| mordred | yeah | 19:16 |
| jeblair | anyway | 19:16 |
| jeblair | in summary for this topic; w00t | 19:16 |
| mordred | #agreed w00t | 19:16 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) | 19:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:16 | |
| mordred | the changes for rackspace config-drive have gone live | 19:16 |
| fungi | mmmnodes | 19:17 |
| mordred | so I can respin the dib elements related to that | 19:17 |
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| mordred | to consume that and do less crazy with xenstore api nova-agent things | 19:17 |
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| fungi | i'm still playing with and redesigning my thoughts on getting database configuration moved from image build time to job run time | 19:17 |
| clarkb | I am working on figuring out why we build one devstack-precise/devstack-trusty node then upload each of those twice. Trying to replicate locally using fake providers without much luck so far and have some new logging that I will restart nodepool for after the meeting | 19:17 |
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| clarkb | so we have a few concurrent things going on here. | 19:18 |
| mordred | cool. I also learned some things from notmyname about internals of swiftclient that I think we can use for more efficient uploads for that case | 19:18 |
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| fungi | also trying to think about how database setup fits in with more general convergence between teh devstack and bare image types (and how we should skin package caching/installation) | 19:18 |
| mordred | fungi: I am in favor of said convergence | 19:18 |
| clarkb | fungi: ++ | 19:18 |
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| mordred | also - can haz shade reviews ... the current set are gnarly enough that I don't really want to add the keypair stuff on top until the current set is landed because _Sanity_ | 19:19 |
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| fungi | though the database config work is at this point a prerequisite for being able to try running unit tests on debian/jessie (since we'd need to dib that in hpcloud, they don't provide base images for it like rax does) | 19:19 |
| mordred | fungi: ++ | 19:20 |
| mordred | so we're still a few weeks away | 19:20 |
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| zaro | o/ | 19:20 |
| fungi | and debian/jessie interest in turn because it has a python 3.4 which is new enough to not have the same bugs as ubuntu trusty | 19:21 |
| jeblair | this is looking really promising though. i feel like we've wrapped our heads around quite a few things | 19:21 |
| fungi | it's getting usable enough to fan out in parallel bug fixing/feature adding efforts now | 19:22 |
| jeblair | ++ | 19:22 |
| mordred | ya | 19:22 |
| fungi | rather than collectively figuring out how to make it work at all | 19:22 |
| mordred | it's amazing how much freedom the "build base image from scratch " option gives us in problem solving | 19:22 |
| clarkb | yup and other than the duplicate uploads I haven't really seen any issues | 19:22 |
| clarkb | we missed one item in an element for a while that jogo fixed | 19:22 |
| clarkb | mordred: its so much faster too | 19:23 |
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| mordred | once it's done, I think we need to take a pass through our elements and our puppet and probably refactor some stuff | 19:23 |
| fungi | absolutely | 19:23 |
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| mordred | because it's a bit rube-goldberg right now - but it's good enough to not touch for the moment | 19:23 |
| jeblair | and i expect fungi's work on image consolidation will help prep us for that | 19:23 |
| fungi | at the moment it's more of a facsimile of our snapshot-based build process | 19:24 |
| fungi | translated to dib | 19:24 |
| fungi | so lots of opportuities for simplification and decruftifying | 19:24 |
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| clarkb | indeed | 19:24 |
| fungi | opportunities too | 19:24 |
| clarkb | also its probably worth noting that if anyone wants me to walk them through building a local image I am happy to do that | 19:24 |
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| clarkb | its super easy at this point and is potentially useful for testing security bugs and the like | 19:25 |
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| fungi | though perhaps an opportuity is where opportunity and tuits meet | 19:25 |
| jeblair | and... | 19:25 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Jobs on trusty) | 19:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Jobs on trusty) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:25 | |
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| fungi | i think we can probably stop covering this one after this week | 19:25 |
| jeblair | we are knocking them out! :) | 19:25 |
| dstanek | clarkb: i'd like to learn. any chance you could screencast it? | 19:25 |
| fungi | at least until it comes time to eol icehouse, but that's months out | 19:26 |
| clarkb | dstanek: ya I can probably typescript record it | 19:26 |
| mordred | dstanek: that's a great idea | 19:26 |
| jeblair | clarkb: ooh, ooh, or live screencast it! | 19:26 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:26 |
| fungi | i still have a handful of cleanup patches to rip out our py3k special snowflakeness | 19:26 |
| jeblair | fungi: are they up for review? | 19:26 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/151715 | 19:26 |
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| jeblair | (why, yes!) | 19:27 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/152215 | 19:27 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/152217 | 19:27 |
| fungi | i think they need to merge in that order | 19:27 |
| fungi | mordred just approved the one which needed to merge before them | 19:27 |
| fungi | so should be safe to lift my -2 on 151715 soon | 19:28 |
| jesusaurus | clarkb: i'd like that typescript as well | 19:28 |
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| fungi | <plug>zuul cross-repo dependencies would have been _very_ useful for this series</plug> | 19:28 |
| fungi | though i'm thrilled that's almost a thing now | 19:28 |
| jeblair | (zuul crd changes are up for review) | 19:28 |
| fungi | yep, been reviewing. can't wait | 19:29 |
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| fungi | anyway, that's all i have for precise->trusty migration | 19:29 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts | 19:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:29 | |
| jeblair | it would be great of folks could review the changes linked above | 19:29 |
| jeblair | the meeting log will call them out easily | 19:29 |
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| jeblair | and next week, i think we are going to have some openings for new priority efforts | 19:30 |
| mordred | ooh | 19:30 |
| jeblair | so we can probably nominate some and discuss them then | 19:30 |
| fungi | that'll be great | 19:30 |
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| * clarkb puts an early vote in for zanata | 19:30 | |
| pleia2 | +1 | 19:31 |
| mrmartin | I want to use zanata with groups portal | 19:31 |
| mrmartin | so +1 | 19:31 |
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| jeblair | yeah, that seems a shoe in :) | 19:31 |
| pleia2 | yeah, mrmartin and I talked about it some while at fosdem (hi mrmartin!) | 19:31 |
| fungi | we could have cross-repo dependencies between zanata and groups changes ;) | 19:31 |
| jeblair | fungi: nicely done | 19:31 |
| mrmartin | hi, yeah, I can help in this zanata story | 19:31 |
| * mordred hands fungi a lovely goat | 19:31 | |
| fungi | lovely, lovely | 19:31 |
| jeblair | #topic Upgrading Gerrit (zaro) | 19:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Upgrading Gerrit (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:31 | |
| jeblair | zaro: what's new? | 19:32 |
| zaro | so i've tested the WIP plugin. | 19:32 |
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| zaro | it's not looking good for 2.9.x. I've entered a few issues into the gerrit issue tracker for David O. to look at. he's already fixed some. | 19:32 |
| fungi | also zaro wrote up a plan for moving from precise to trusty based on when he migrated review-dev last week | 19:32 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/review-to-trusty | 19:33 |
| zaro | but it requires changes in gerrit core which is only available on master | 19:33 |
| fungi | we should think about when we want to do that | 19:33 |
| zaro | ohh yes. review-dev is already on trusty | 19:33 |
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| pleia2 | nice | 19:33 |
| zaro | that would be the 1st step towards upgrade actually. | 19:34 |
| mordred | zaro: were there any issues with trusty? or was it pretty straightforward? | 19:34 |
| fungi | i haven't torn down the old review-dev server yet, but will soon if nobody needs anything from it | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | zaro: that looks like an os upgrade combined with a gerrit upgrade, is that correct? | 19:34 |
| zaro | No issues. Just required new libs. | 19:34 |
| zaro | yes, that is correct. | 19:35 |
| jeblair | cool, i think that's probably fine | 19:35 |
| clarkb | fungi: I don't need anything fwiw | 19:35 |
| zaro | these are the new libs i'm refering to : https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151368/ | 19:35 |
| * jeblair looks at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kilo_Release_Schedule | 19:35 | |
| fungi | i guess we could consider refactoring the work into two steps (move to trusty, upgrade to 2.9) with breathing room between to iron out new bugs we find | 19:36 |
| jeblair | let's not do it this week. :) | 19:36 |
| zaro | been testing gerrit with zuul as well. looking good so far. | 19:36 |
| mordred | jeblair: NOW. DO IT NOW!!! | 19:36 |
| zaro | been debugging zuul-dev, it's almost fixed. zuul-merger seems to be having issues cloning from repo | 19:36 |
| fungi | but yeah, we're getting close to busytime for the release cycle | 19:36 |
| zaro | it's something to do with the ssh host key | 19:36 |
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| fungi | zaro: if it's the error message you pasted earlier, it's the client public key needing to get loaded into gerrit | 19:37 |
| fungi | not the host key | 19:37 |
| zaro | fungi: yah, i think you are correct. jsut haven't had time to do it. | 19:37 |
| jeblair | this weekend is probably too short notice. people we like will yell at us if we do it next weekend. | 19:38 |
| mordred | jeblair: there are people we like? | 19:38 |
| fungi | i have travel for several weekends after that so probably won't be able to help during | 19:38 |
| * fungi double-checks calendar thingy | 19:39 | |
| mordred | weekend after next I'm booked - but other than that I'm actually back to the world of being able to help people with things | 19:39 |
| fungi | yeah, i'm around for the next two weekends, then otherwise occupied for the three following | 19:39 |
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| fungi | but if i'm not around, i'm not around. feel free to do it without me | 19:40 |
| pleia2 | I'm busy this weekend and the next, then my schedule is quite clear for a while | 19:40 |
| fungi | there's always another gerrit upgrade on the horizon, after all ;) | 19:41 |
| jeblair | okay, let's take this offline for now | 19:41 |
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| jeblair | #topic (yamamoto) Portability question | 19:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "(yamamoto) Portability question (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:41 | |
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| clarkb | and maybe consider not weekend but other off hours? | 19:41 |
| jeblair | " I'm not sure if I can attend the meeting, sorry. I added this here as it's suggested that this needs wider audience." | 19:42 |
| mordred | I have two concerns with the portability patches | 19:42 |
| jeblair | " It's easier for me to be able to run "tox" tests on non-linux environments. " | 19:42 |
| jeblair | "On the other hand, the gain of portability to platforms that OpenStack does not support is questionable." | 19:42 |
| jeblair | "My suggestions " | 19:42 |
| jeblair | " Do not refrain from using non-portable features when necessary" | 19:42 |
| jeblair | " Accept best-effort changes to make it portable, unless they have significant drawbacks" | 19:42 |
| jeblair | (end of quote) | 19:42 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150264/ | 19:42 |
| fungi | is this specific to the bash->sh portability changes? | 19:43 |
| clarkb | my major concern initially was there was no accompanying info with why the changes were more protable, but that appears to have been fixed in newer patchsets | 19:43 |
| mordred | k. that actually addresses one of my concerns - which is that _like_ using bash and dont' think that bourne shell compat leads to nice scripts | 19:43 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/owner:zhaoxinyu%2540huawei.com+status:open,n,z | 19:43 |
| clarkb | fungi: and find args and so on | 19:43 |
| fungi | k | 19:43 |
| clarkb | mordred: that and bash is usually bash when you invoke bash. sh on the other hand is an non portable mess :) | 19:43 |
| mordred | my other being that we don't have non-linux machiens, so I fear these would bitrot almost immediately | 19:43 |
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| mordred | clarkb: ++ | 19:43 |
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| fungi | er, wrong link there, sorry | 19:44 |
| mrmartin | freebsd supports bash | 19:44 |
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| mordred | that said - I don't have a problem with the nature of most of the changes (other than s,/bin/bash,/bin/sh,) on their merits | 19:44 |
| clarkb | so its actually hard to know whether or not the sh you write is properly portable | 19:44 |
| mrmartin | and OSX too | 19:44 |
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| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack-infra/project-config+topic:portability,n,z | 19:44 |
| ianw | this has come up with devstack too, zsh fixes for example | 19:44 |
| ianw | my thinking is if the change is minimal then whatever makes peoples life easier | 19:44 |
| fungi | tweaking devstack to run under zsh is a little more dubious i think | 19:45 |
| ianw | but if it's worse code, then no. for example replacing ${!expand-me} with tricks involving execs etc | 19:45 |
| jesusaurus | clarkb: well, proper sh could be enforced with bashate | 19:45 |
| mordred | ianw: ++ | 19:45 |
| fungi | i mean, what platforms are going to have zsh but no bash? | 19:45 |
| sdague | jesusaurus: bashate doesn't do that | 19:45 |
| mordred | we could always just rewrite all of our shell in perl ... | 19:46 |
| fungi | bash8 --posix | 19:46 |
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| jeblair | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150265/2/tools/run-layout.sh | 19:46 |
| sdague | fungi: also, we don't really support zsh in devstack, we've let compat patches in for the openrc file so you can source openrc from zsh | 19:46 |
| jeblair | i'm not certain that is not worse ^ | 19:46 |
| jesusaurus | sdague: not currently, but it is already opinionated, so it would become sh-opinionated | 19:46 |
| jesusaurus | s/would/could | 19:46 |
| fungi | sdague: okay, that makes slightly more sense | 19:46 |
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| sdague | jesusaurus: -2, it's not the purpose of the tool | 19:47 |
| clarkb | so ya I think keep bash but find/mkdtemp etc changes are fine | 19:47 |
| mordred | (the find | xargs is the pattern I usually use so it makes sense to me with slightly less thinking) | 19:47 |
| clarkb | though I am super biased to gnu tools after living on solaris I don't mind if other people are making the fixes | 19:47 |
| sdague | you also only get arrays in bash with bash4, which mac does not have | 19:48 |
| sdague | which at least a few tools use | 19:48 |
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| AJaeger | sdague: indeed, the translation jobs do | 19:48 |
| fungi | so, i can sort of see the case that developers hacking on patches for this stuff want to be able to test their proposed changes locally with minimal fuss, and maybe installing bash is effort, but still curious what platforms it's a burden on | 19:48 |
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| fungi | "non-linux environments" is a little unspecific | 19:49 |
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| fungi | there's nothing linux-specific about bash after all | 19:49 |
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| jeblair | without regular contributions from folks on non-linux platforms and testing, i don't think we can make any guarantees about this | 19:50 |
| fungi | and "portability" is a slippery slope. i don't want to be reviewing 100 one-line changes to shebang lines and what have you | 19:50 |
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| jeblair | i do agree that portability patches are generally non-harmful, but we have way too many changes already, and i don't want to review them | 19:50 |
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| AJaeger | These are tests run in the gate - that's where they have to work. | 19:51 |
| jeblair | since we will not be able to prevent non-portable things from sneaking in, we would probably be continually receiving patches to fix them | 19:51 |
| AJaeger | The contributor wanted to run locally a tox -e XXX. | 19:51 |
| AJaeger | That's something that should work in general - but I agree that we should use some sane defaults. | 19:51 |
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| AJaeger | ... or requirements. | 19:52 |
| jeblair | so who is interested in supporting this effort by reviewing these changes? | 19:52 |
| mordred | I could see a general rule that things called by tox could want a /bin/sh shebang line | 19:52 |
| jeblair | (and future ones) | 19:52 |
| mordred | since that's a specific bounded usecase | 19:52 |
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| jeblair | mordred: that just means you can run the script until the next error | 19:53 |
| ianw | mordred: but can it assume a gnu toolchain? | 19:53 |
| fungi | i am fine reviewing changes such as "this script uses bashisms but starts with a /bin/sh shebang line" | 19:53 |
| mordred | but broadly across all the test of our bash- I think it's a no-go | 19:53 |
| fungi | i consider that a bug | 19:53 |
| jeblair | fungi: makes sense | 19:53 |
| fungi | assuming "sh" is bash is an obvious portability problem | 19:53 |
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| AJaeger | fungi, agreed | 19:53 |
| fungi | declaring "bash" is not | 19:53 |
| AJaeger | mordred: I would support an exception for tox called scripts - but right now I think it's not worth the effort. | 19:54 |
| AJaeger | This will bitrot soon again. | 19:54 |
| jeblair | so i think it's worth giving the feedback that there is not a lot of interest from core reviewers to maintain compatability in the scripts themselves | 19:55 |
| clarkb | its also worth noting that none of the software this tests is intended to run on OS X for example. We don't use portable python event polling in all places | 19:55 |
| fungi | so it sounds mostly unanimous that without a clear mandate to support running our scripts under constrained environments, we should probably set expectations that we won't be reviewing that sort of improvement | 19:55 |
| jeblair | clarkb: true | 19:55 |
| clarkb | and so on, so I think that we may have already asserted you need a linux install | 19:55 |
| fungi | yeah, agreed | 19:55 |
| jeblair | okay, a few more mins for mrmartin | 19:55 |
| jeblair | #topic Askbot migration (mrmartin) | 19:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Askbot migration (mrmartin) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:55 | |
| mrmartin | ok, I just like to get a little care regarding this askbot migration | 19:56 |
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| fungi | on that note, i should order the replacement https cert for that today. it expires in a few weeks now | 19:56 |
| mordred | fungi: ++ | 19:56 |
| mrmartin | so I like to ask somebody to dedicate himself to review the patches, but the larges part is that we need to create the new instance | 19:56 |
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| jeblair | mrmartin: we probably want to land all the patches first | 19:57 |
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| fungi | i can iterate on trying to boot the instance once the patches have made it through sufficient review (preferably approval) | 19:57 |
| jeblair | once that's done, hopefully spinning up the new instance will be easy | 19:57 |
| mrmartin | jeblair: right, it was there since december, and was splited up last week | 19:57 |
| clarkb | making this a priority effort is probably a good way to stay on top of it | 19:57 |
| jeblair | mrmartin: there are some jenkins -1 votes on those | 19:57 |
| mrmartin | so after instance creation, we need to backup the existing site and restore in new instance | 19:58 |
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| mrmartin | jeblair: yes, due to a puppet-module dependency | 19:58 |
| mrmartin | need to approve the puppet-solr module first | 19:58 |
| mordred | sounds like a job for the new depends-on code | 19:58 |
| fungi | mrmartin: i can definitely dump/import the data as long as i know where it goes and what should be run to load it | 19:59 |
| fungi | mrmartin: so maybe some minimal documentation around that would be helpful if you haven't written such a thing already | 19:59 |
| mordred | it does sound liek this might want to join zanata as a priority effort next week | 19:59 |
| mrmartin | so, as it is a high traffic site, I like to see a silent pilot period before we move the dns zones | 19:59 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/140043 | 19:59 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/151912 | 19:59 |
| fungi | mrmartin: that seems reasonable | 19:59 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/151910 | 19:59 |
| mrmartin | fungi: right, I can write a spec for this similar to module split out | 20:00 |
| pleia2 | fyi, I'll be mostly out Friday and Monday for some appointments and things (yay for being home) | 20:00 |
| jeblair | i think the reviews for that need to happen bottom-up ^ | 20:00 |
| fungi | mrmartin: we can put it in dns under an alternative name if you want, or just expect testers to modify /etc/hosts | 20:00 |
| mrmartin | I think hosts file modification is more then enough | 20:00 |
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| jeblair | we're at time. thanks everyone! | 20:00 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 3 20:00:49 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-03-19.01.html | 20:00 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-03-19.01.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-03-19.01.log.html | 20:00 |
| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:01 |
| jeblair | ttx: o/ | 20:01 |
| mikal | Hi! | 20:01 |
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| markmcclain | o/ | 20:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:01 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:01 |
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| sdague | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | russellb, jgriffith, annegentle, mordred, devananda, jeblair, jaypipes : around ? | 20:01 |
| jeblair | ttx: still here | 20:02 |
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| annegentle | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | err jeblair I saw | 20:02 |
| ttx | I should script this | 20:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 3 20:02:32 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:02 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #topic Release naming process | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Release naming process (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/150604 | 20:03 |
| ttx | This is a clarification/standardization of the release cycle naming process | 20:03 |
| ttx | IIUC the idea here is to use that new process for the M naming campaign. | 20:03 |
| ttx | (We could actually start that campaign soon after the change merges, since we know where that summit will be held already) | 20:03 |
| mordred | and hopefully to reduce the amount of hate people give ttx | 20:03 |
| ttx | (except the proposed change currently says "no sooner than the opening of development of the previous release") | 20:03 |
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| ttx | Current revision looks relatively good to me | 20:04 |
| jeblair | there are some good comments on that, perhaps the most contentious one is whether it's okay to say "fun" in the resolution. | 20:04 |
| ttx | I have two main concerns left... | 20:04 |
| jeblair | oh, sorry "cool" | 20:04 |
| jeblair | not fun | 20:04 |
| * mordred disagrees with mikal about cool | 20:04 | |
| ttx | 1. I'm not sure annotations are the best way to integrate marketing team feedback, as I expect most voters won't read the attached data | 20:04 |
| ttx | A few alternatives have been proposed on the review | 20:04 |
| mikal | I've never been cool, so it saddens me | 20:04 |
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| ttx | 2. I'm very concerned that striking down the poll winner on trademark grounds *after* the campaign and the vote will be very unpopular and result in kill-the-messenger | 20:04 |
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| ttx | That's more difficult to fix, since the concept of an open list is not really compatible with pre-vote trademark checks | 20:05 |
| mikal | ttx: I disagree there | 20:05 |
| mordred | yah - I think people have interacted with enough project name trademark issues that it won't be contentious | 20:05 |
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| mikal | ttx: if its open (we checked these, they failed) | 20:05 |
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| mikal | ttx: then I think that's ok | 20:05 |
| ttx | mikal: maybe because you've never been the messenger | 20:05 |
| mikal | ttx: true dat | 20:05 |
| mordred | we can let the professional messenger people be the messengers ... | 20:06 |
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| mordred | they probably don't mind being shot as much | 20:06 |
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| mikal | mordred: ummm, yeah, about that | 20:06 |
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| ttx | I mean, the results of the poll will be out there while the checks are run | 20:06 |
| ttx | people will start using the winner name | 20:06 |
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| mikal | I really do think we need to filter through the trade mark search before the vote | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | ttx: why do the results of the poll have to be published before the trademark check is done? | 20:06 |
| mikal | To stop a mutiny if the winner is excluded for some reason | 20:06 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: ++ | 20:06 |
| ttx | and then someone (mle) will relay the trademark lawyers always-qeustionable opinion | 20:06 |
| mordred | dhellmann: ++ | 20:06 |
| markmcclain | I would agree we should pre-filter somehow | 20:07 |
| fungi | i suppose there could be a preliminary poll to choos ethe top n candidates, then vet them, then a second poll to select the winner | 20:07 |
| annegentle | I think a prefiltered list is fine, the voting is the "fun" and the setup of the vote and the communication of the vote is the "work" | 20:07 |
| ttx | dhellmann: open voting platforms generally open the results immediately | 20:07 |
| ttx | dhellmann: but maybe you have a voting platform to suggest that wouldn't do that | 20:07 |
| mordred | fungi's idea is also potentially good | 20:07 |
| markmcclain | fungi: ++ | 20:07 |
| jeblair | i think avoiding prefiltering is important. i think it's one of the things that makes this a truly open election | 20:07 |
| ttx | and would still support 16K voters | 20:07 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | ttx: no, I was just trying to understand the assumption implicit in your statement | 20:07 |
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| fungi | but also "bad" because it's twice as many polls | 20:07 |
| mikal | Yeah, we just have a sentence in the email opening the vote saying: "We also considered the following names, but had trade mark problems: Mikal, Monty, Manchuria, Munchkin" | 20:07 |
| jeblair | and i also think it's a benefit to the foundation to not have to do exceess trademark checks | 20:08 |
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| zaneb | fwiw the Fedora process is to have a wiki page that anyone can add suggestions to, and then one of the representative bodies (I forget which) goes through and leaves reasons (trademark problem, doesn't fit theme, &c.) why some aren't appropriate. the rest get voted on | 20:08 |
| mordred | yah - because they'd potentially have to trademark check 50 things | 20:08 |
| mikal | I don't think trade mark checks are very expensive? | 20:08 |
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| mordred | oh! there is another group process we can model on? | 20:08 |
| zaneb | then again we had a Fedora "Beefy Miracle" release, so... yeah | 20:08 |
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| mikal | I've worked places where we did them for every _internal_ project name | 20:08 |
| fungi | contrast with debian, which delegates release naming to the release team (no fun for anyone else i guess) | 20:08 |
| mordred | zaneb: you had me there fora second... | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | maybe we shouldn't have 50 options | 20:08 |
| mordred | why not? | 20:09 |
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| mordred | we have a ranking voting system | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | well, if we're worried about the cost of the checks | 20:09 |
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| mordred | there's no reason to unnecssarily restrict people's expression | 20:09 |
| ttx | dhellmann: mikal it's expensive if the list ens up being long | 20:09 |
| mikal | ttx: do we know how much we pay per check? | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | mordred: I'm not certain it's unnecessary. Don't restrict my right to ask questions. ;-) | 20:09 |
| mikal | just trying to get an order of magnitude | 20:09 |
| ttx | mikal: no. It's also the time it takes | 20:09 |
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| mordred | dhellmann: :) | 20:10 |
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| mordred | dhellmann: I'm fine with restricting you personally - just not $people generally ;) | 20:10 |
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| jeblair | i mean _i'm_ not worried about the cost; i thought it was a nice benefit of the open list model, whose real benefit is in making the process as fair and open as we can. | 20:10 |
| ttx | To vet 4 it takes a week. Since that's our trademark lawyer, I expect vetting 50 would take at least 3 weeks | 20:10 |
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| dhellmann | I think if we came up with a list of 50 options and they were *in order* and #50 was the only one without a trademark issue we would probably have noticed that before we started voting, right? | 20:10 |
| annegentle | guh | 20:11 |
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| dhellmann | so if we can hide the election results until the checks are done, we would only need to check a few | 20:11 |
| mordred | also - since we're drawing these from names of public places ... | 20:11 |
| mordred | the chances of trademark violation is probably lower than for other things? | 20:11 |
| sdague | mordred: not really, trademarks are per segment | 20:12 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I agree that if we can announce the winner before or at the same time as the poll results, the bad efect is mostly avoided | 20:12 |
| annegentle | you're already prefiltering for length and character set. | 20:12 |
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| mordred | sdague: good point | 20:12 |
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| ttx | but you wanted an open process, and now that means some people have early access to the poll results | 20:12 |
| zaneb | honestly, anyone with a web browser and 5 minutes to kill can rule stuff out on trademark grounds | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | so maybe instead of condorcet, we just do a popularity vote with a tool that lets us keep the results private | 20:12 |
| zaneb | you only need a lawyer to rule stuff *in* | 20:12 |
| ttx | zaneb: you should definitely open a practice | 20:12 |
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| mordred | so - at the risk of being this guy ... | 20:13 |
| jeblair | zaneb: is right, and is, incidentally, the process they use at netflix | 20:13 |
| zaneb | ttx: can we call the M release "Microsoft"? Answer: no. number of lawyers consulted: 0 | 20:13 |
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| ttx | zaneb: but can you call it Miyasaki ? | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | zaneb: so are you suggesting we pre-filter? | 20:13 |
| mordred | I feel like we're trying to optimize away a problem that has not occurred - namely that if we annoucne that we're going to do trademark checks on the sorted list of winners and will announce the results people will completely ignore that and just go crazy with the top name in the list | 20:14 |
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| mordred | it's entirely possible that all of 10 people will even notice the results list | 20:14 |
| mordred | and of those people they'll be the people who will be involved in getting them vetted | 20:14 |
| ttx | zaneb: I for one don't know how Japanese law protects family names | 20:14 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: yes. we can drastically reduce the odds of something being ruled out later by the lawyers | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | zaneb: yeah, I like that. We need some volunteers. | 20:14 |
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| ttx | of course obvious existing stuff can easily be rules out | 20:14 |
| zaneb | so that the average number of names we need to do a full shakedown on is in the range 1-2 | 20:15 |
| jeblair | i mean a lot of us make up names for the releases before they happen. no poll necessary. | 20:15 |
| jeblair | that doesn't cause them to become the actual names | 20:15 |
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| mordred | I'm looking forward to the lemming release | 20:15 |
| mordred | just like I was looking forward to the hood release | 20:15 |
| mordred | and I can't wait for OpenStack Monty | 20:15 |
| zaneb | team lizard | 20:15 |
| ttx | mordred: so you say my concern is irrelevant? | 20:15 |
| mordred | I am not worried about it myself | 20:15 |
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| jeblair | i'm keen on Miyazaki (which is a city in japan) | 20:15 |
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| mikal | I've been lobbying for Muppet | 20:16 |
| mordred | and I'm happy to be the messenger even to take the brunt of the hate mail if that would be helpful | 20:16 |
| mikal | But I'm not helpful with names | 20:16 |
| * ttx is tempted to let Monty defend the trademark lawyers call | 20:16 | |
| mordred | ttx: I think an open process means trusting that the peopel involved will do things and it won't be the end of the world | 20:16 |
| mikal | So, in other news | 20:16 |
| jeblair | mordred: ++ | 20:16 |
| mikal | It sounds like this thing needs another round of discussion on the review? | 20:16 |
| Rockyg | crowdsource the checks on the initial list, then finalize and vote | 20:16 |
| mordred | mikal: probably so | 20:16 |
| mikal | W're not going to resolve it now | 20:17 |
| mordred | ttx: I mean, I get what your'e saying and can see how it can be a valid concern | 20:17 |
| mikal | So let's argue in gerrit | 20:17 |
| ttx | "You all voted for Miyasaki, by a large margin. But someone nobody knows has said it's a bit risky because it's the name of a guy that has studios in Japan | 20:17 |
| mordred | ttx: I just think personally that having a wide open process would be an interesting thing to try | 20:17 |
| mordred | with not a huge amount of _Actual_ downside to failure | 20:17 |
| jeblair | i will push up a new change with the minor changes suggested so far | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: ++ | 20:17 |
| mordred | ttx: I believe most people are familiar with "the lawyeres said it's a trademark problem" | 20:17 |
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| mordred | or at least they've never heard of quantum, moniker or savana | 20:18 |
| ttx | or RedDwarf | 20:18 |
| mordred | the list goes on ... | 20:18 |
| ttx | that didn't prevent them from choosing the name in the first place | 20:18 |
| mordred | of the list of legal issues we're sketchy on around here- we've got real history with dealing with bad trademark :) | 20:18 |
| ttx | so much for "checking on Google" | 20:18 |
| mordred | sure - but nobody revolted when it had to be changed | 20:19 |
| mordred | much less people in general | 20:19 |
| ttx | no, I see your point | 20:19 |
| jeblair | ttx: it's pretty clear they did not do that | 20:19 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:19 |
| ttx | jeblair: btw why did you add "no sooner than when the previous cycle starts" ? | 20:19 |
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| mikal | So... Moving on, right? | 20:19 |
| jeblair | ttx: i think that was to keep some periodicity to the process | 20:20 |
| * mikal looks hopeful | 20:20 | |
| ttx | mikal: ok, ok | 20:20 |
| jeblair | ttx: so we don't chose the next 5 names at once | 20:20 |
| jeblair | (knowing M now would be nice, knowing N at this point isn't as necessary) | 20:20 |
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| mordred | and we may have all rage-quit by N | 20:20 |
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| mikal | jeblair: I'd like to know the M name by Vancouver | 20:21 |
| ttx | mikal: we happen to have a relatively light agenda, so I figured we could discuss a bit of this directly | 20:21 |
| mordred | mikal: ++ | 20:21 |
| mikal | jeblair: heck, I'd like to know the L name | 20:21 |
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| ttx | mikal: but if you are done with it, I guess we should move oni | 20:21 |
| ttx | on | 20:21 |
| mikal | ttx: well, other people are here too | 20:21 |
| mordred | mikal: bah | 20:21 |
| ttx | #topic Project structure reform | 20:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Project structure reform (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:21 | |
| mikal | ttx: I just feel like we're not going to reach a concensus the way we're going | 20:21 |
| annegentle | yay moving on | 20:21 |
| ttx | * Move from program-based structure to project-based (including new projects requirements) (https://review.openstack.org/145740) | 20:22 |
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| ttx | I think we can make progress here. | 20:22 |
| ttx | We have dhellmann, jeblair and mordred +1, annegentle and vishy +1ed a previous version | 20:22 |
| ttx | no other TC member chimed in last time I looked | 20:22 |
| ttx | nor commented | 20:22 |
| ttx | Does that mean with one more vote it's good to go ? | 20:22 |
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| jeblair | i would love it if more of the committe voted on this | 20:22 |
| ttx | me too | 20:22 |
| mikal | So, want me to do that now? | 20:23 |
| jeblair | i feel like we all ought to have opinions about it and go on record | 20:23 |
| mikal | i.e. if we're light for tstuff, let's pause and make people review this | 20:23 |
| ttx | mikal: ideally, you would have done it before, but.. | 20:23 |
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| ttx | I'll take it :) | 20:23 |
| mikal | ttx: that's clearly not the case for much of the TC | 20:23 |
| ttx | mikal: and of those, at least you are present :) | 20:23 |
| sdague | just added my opinion, seems reasonable | 20:24 |
| markmcclain | I was fairly close to adding +1 last time I looked.. need to return and finish re-read | 20:24 |
| ttx | We can use the next 5-10 minutes to make progress on that | 20:24 |
| ttx | I expect it to be an initial version and to get amended as we go along anyway | 20:25 |
| ttx | mikal: the key part imho is the new projects requirements | 20:25 |
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| ttx | The rest is more mechanical rip off of incubation and programs | 20:26 |
| ttx | as already discussed in the spec | 20:26 |
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| ttx | the new projects requirements were vague in the spec though, and this defines them | 20:26 |
| mordred | I Think it's fine as is - but I can see a follow on discussion aroudn refining the oslo line | 20:26 |
| ttx | We have 7 now, but I'd like to give everyone a last chance to oppose it | 20:27 |
| ttx | mordred: yes I like the "we do X because we want to encourage Y" formula | 20:27 |
| annegentle | ttx: I think there's still some room for problematic PTL definition | 20:27 |
| mikal | annegentle: as in booting a failed PTL? | 20:27 |
| annegentle | for example, let's say translation, logging, and monitoring all want projects. Who would be the electorate for each ptl? | 20:27 |
| annegentle | mikal: more like at what level is ptl? | 20:28 |
| ttx | ah. the questiojn of questionable electorate | 20:28 |
| ttx | annegentle: it's already the case though, not a new problem | 20:28 |
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| ttx | Release Management PTl was elected by "contributors" to the stable branch for example | 20:28 |
| annegentle | yeah renaming program to project didn't address it, but as long as we're renaming, should we discuss the problem? | 20:29 |
| ttx | but we also gave core reviewers would get a vote | 20:29 |
| fungi | broadening the electorate definition will in some cases require new tools for tracking contribution to a segment of the community | 20:29 |
| annegentle | right fungi for translations for example | 20:29 |
| ttx | annegentle: I would discuss it as a separate change | 20:29 |
| fungi | (for example, a means of tracking translation activity in zanata) | 20:29 |
| ttx | since it applies to both the old and new | 20:29 |
| ttx | and is likely to trigger a completely separate debate | 20:29 |
| mikal | Agreed | 20:30 |
| mikal | Ditto the oslo thing | 20:30 |
| mikal | I'd like to talk more about it, but I don't think we need to block this for that | 20:30 |
| ttx | but I completely agree we might want to clarify that | 20:30 |
| annegentle | ttx: ok | 20:30 |
| annegentle | yep, agreed | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | I like jeblair's alternate wording for the Oslo question, so maybe he will submit a patch? | 20:30 |
| fungi | so perhaps projects come with definitions of their constituents which defaults to gerrit change owners of patches merged to covered repos, but could be something else as long as there's a clear metric and corresponding tracking mechanism | 20:30 |
| ttx | #info subsequent change should handle the case of a PTL where voters are not directly derived from repo commits | 20:31 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ++ | 20:31 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: in that case, he just might :) | 20:31 |
| * dhellmann crosses his fingers | 20:31 | |
| ttx | OK, let's say I'll approve it if it's still at 7 YES and no -1 tomorrow | 20:31 |
| ttx | if a -1 is raised we'll wait for next week | 20:32 |
| annegentle | ttx: it's not "just" tracking mechanisms, it's also scope. As in should there be a training PTL and API Docs PTL, both of which would have different repos for electorate. | 20:32 |
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| ttx | annegentle: that maps to teams | 20:32 |
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| ttx | If training and docs are separate existing teams, I don't see why they wouldn't each have a lead | 20:33 |
| annegentle | ttx: there's no API docs team for example | 20:33 |
| fungi | that gets back to the "let's get rid of the prohibition against similar fields of endeavor" reason for big-tenting | 20:33 |
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| annegentle | ttx: so it falls to the Docs PTL | 20:33 |
| ttx | annegentle: who handles the API Docs ? The doc team ? Some other team ? | 20:33 |
| annegentle | fungi: right but with continuing to have PTL elections you still have a first in winner of sorts | 20:34 |
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| annegentle | ttx: the Docs PTL currently has them in the program | 20:34 |
| annegentle | ttx: just figuring out the mechanism for when you'd know to have a 2nd PTL election | 20:34 |
| ttx | but who handles them ? Some subteam of Docs team ? Or a completely separate team ? | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | some of the oslo libs are similar -- we have a single cross-lib core team, but also have specialist teams that don't tend to contribute to more than one library | 20:34 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes, that would be the subteam case | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | we just sort of evolved that way, but we could theoretically split those groups out into their own teams | 20:35 |
| ttx | annegentle: actually the case of the release management program is very interesting here | 20:35 |
| ttx | because it's a pack with stable, release management and vulnerability management | 20:35 |
| ttx | which actually are 3 separate teams | 20:35 |
| annegentle | yeah so in all those cases, do we need to codify/write down the guideance for the split | 20:36 |
| fungi | under this model, if some new team wanted to write all new api docs, they could presumably petition to become a project. if they wanted to take over maintenance of existing api docs then they'd need to coordinate that choice with the existing team controlling those specific repositories | 20:36 |
| annegentle | (I can't spell) | 20:36 |
| ttx | It wouldn't be completely crazy to consider them 3 teams | 20:36 |
| annegentle | yep it would be fine | 20:36 |
| ttx | annegentle: agree on the need | 20:36 |
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| dhellmann | annegentle: yeah, definitely Write Things Down (TM) | 20:36 |
| ttx | OK, any more remarks on that one ? | 20:36 |
| annegentle | yep | 20:36 |
| ttx | let's move on to the next | 20:36 |
| ttx | * Adds service to indicate a user-readable and understandable name (https://review.openstack.org/150030) | 20:37 |
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| ttx | That's a followup change to keep the "service name" information somewhere, I think it's pretty straightforward | 20:37 |
| annegentle | mordred brought up interesting points that made me think back to the history | 20:37 |
| ttx | mordred has a good point, but this change is more putting back what was there than coming up with new names, no ? | 20:37 |
| annegentle | ttx: do you recall if Image Service was a legal requirement? Or was it caused by the alleviation of confusion I mention ? | 20:38 |
| mordred | I'm TOTALLY fine with not 'fixing' right now | 20:38 |
| ttx | annegentle: don't remember... | 20:38 |
| mordred | it just read strangely | 20:38 |
| ttx | I think whatever was there before was more confusing ? | 20:38 |
| ttx | was it "Image discovery and delivery service" ? | 20:38 |
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| annegentle | ttx: ha maybe? | 20:38 |
| ttx | a bit of a mouthful for docs | 20:39 |
| annegentle | for sure | 20:39 |
| ttx | so i think it it was contracted | 20:39 |
| annegentle | so should I patch to drop the second "service" ? | 20:40 |
| ttx | I don't really care tbh | 20:40 |
| annegentle | or are these legally vetted names already? | 20:40 |
| ttx | you are the first consumer of that info | 20:40 |
| ttx | in the docs | 20:40 |
| ttx | I'm fine with what is fine for you | 20:41 |
| annegentle | ttx: can you find out the legal status easily? I can ask too | 20:41 |
| ttx | I can ask. Doesn't ring any bell though. | 20:41 |
| ttx | annegentle: can you sned me an email with the question ? I'll pass it around historians | 20:41 |
| annegentle | ttx: you got it | 20:42 |
| ttx | OK, moving on, unless someone has another comment on that one | 20:42 |
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| annegentle | #action annegentle to send ttx email asking about existing trademark status of list of service names | 20:42 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes | 20:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:42 | |
| ttx | * Adding Chuck Short to extra-atcs (https://review.openstack.org/150763) | 20:42 |
| ttx | I'll approve this one when (if) it reaches 7 YES | 20:42 |
| ttx | * Move oslo.version to openstack-attic (https://review.openstack.org/151772) | 20:43 |
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| dhellmann | I abandoned that in favor of https://review.openstack.org/152654 from fungi | 20:43 |
| ttx | This change has a -1 from mikal | 20:43 |
| ttx | ah, recent | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | that just deletes it, which in retrospect is more accurate | 20:43 |
| fungi | dhellmann: oh, yours was earlier--sorry i didn't even see it for some reason. my grep must have been broken, that was it | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | and also has a +1 from mikal | 20:43 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: I just renamed it, and I should have removed it, so no worries | 20:44 |
| mikal | Yeah | 20:44 |
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| mikal | I just thought it was weird to track the attic repo | 20:44 |
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| * annegentle has to step out breifly, sorry | 20:44 | |
| mikal | fungi's change didn't do that, so won the popularity contest | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | mikal: yeah, I didn't understand your comment until I saw fungi's patch -- brain hiccup | 20:44 |
| jeblair | mikal: ++; fungi's change lgtm | 20:44 |
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| mikal | See, I do read these things before rubber stamping | 20:44 |
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| * dhellmann never doubted it | 20:44 | |
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| mikal | :) | 20:44 |
| ttx | The others are repository additions, all proposed by the local PTL and which I'll all approve tomorrow unless someone complains: | 20:45 |
| ttx | * Add oslo.versionedobjects to the Oslo program (https://review.openstack.org/151771) | 20:45 |
| ttx | * Add infra puppet repos (https://review.openstack.org/151100) | 20:45 |
| ttx | * Add shade to infra program (https://review.openstack.org/151102) | 20:45 |
| ttx | * Adds openstackdocstheme to the Documentation Program (https://review.openstack.org/151773) | 20:45 |
| mikal | Can we talk about the puppet one quickly? | 20:45 |
| mikal | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151100/ that is | 20:45 |
| ttx | mikal: sure | 20:45 |
| mordred | mikal: no talking. only voting. | 20:45 |
| mikal | jeblair: dude, that's a lot of repos | 20:45 |
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| mikal | Ok, conversation done | 20:45 |
| jeblair | mikal: dude. | 20:46 |
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| * ttx expects some dirty conflicts with the governance change which also touches the program.yaml | 20:46 | |
| mordred | mikal: amazingly, that's actually the thing needed to make things _easier_ | 20:46 |
| mordred | mikal: also ... dude | 20:46 |
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| mikal | Heh | 20:46 |
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| mikal | I just want it minuted that jeblair is trying to win the "most repos" competition | 20:46 |
| ttx | he wins | 20:46 |
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| dhellmann | I move that ttx be allowed to rebase and fix any conflicts for patches that are already approved without us needing to vote again. | 20:46 |
| mikal | dhellmann: that seems sensible to me | 20:47 |
| mordred | dhellmann: ++ | 20:47 |
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| markmcclain | dhellmann: ++ | 20:47 |
| ttx | I move that future incarnations of this file (if any) should use multiple files to avoid unnecessary conflicts | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | ttx: if you want help with that, I'll do the rebasing and you can approve them | 20:48 |
| ttx | dhellmann: noted | 20:48 |
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| jeblair | ttx: i'm not opposed, but i fear it won't help | 20:48 |
| ttx | and appreciated | 20:48 |
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| ttx | jeblair: it won't help you and your damn list of 145 repos | 20:48 |
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| ttx | you wioll be in rebase hell forever | 20:49 |
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| * dhellmann can't wait to see what the rendered repo list looks like when he restores https://review.openstack.org/125788 | 20:49 | |
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| ttx | dhellmann: heh | 20:49 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:49 |
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| ttx | We still have no answer from the Lil'wat tribe and pressure to get a name for L is at an all-time high | 20:49 |
| ttx | Especially with some projects like Nova planning to "defer to L" a number of blueprints this week | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | I think we may have to count that as a lost opportunity | 20:50 |
| ttx | So if you give me your approval I'll start the poll (Juno/Kilo-style open-to-everyone SurveyMonkey poll) this week | 20:50 |
| ttx | Short list was vetted/sponsored by TC members last week: Lizard, London, Liberty, Love | 20:50 |
| ttx | (in my personal order of preference :) | 20:50 |
| ttx | (campaign starts) | 20:50 |
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| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 20:50 |
| mikal | Yes, please do that thing | 20:50 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: +1 let's start the poll | 20:50 |
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| sdague | agree, just run the poll | 20:51 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: +1 for running the poll | 20:52 |
| ttx | In other news, I'll try to look at some projects activity to judge if none of them died while we were looking the other way | 20:52 |
| jeblair | ttx: maybe they just finished? | 20:52 |
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| ttx | jeblair: maybe. I received pings from people having trouble to contact certain projects | 20:53 |
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| ttx | maybe it's just a blip | 20:53 |
| jeblair | ttx: sounds like a worthy effort | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | we had some concern about landing some oslo updates; looking into it, I think it's probably going to work out, but it raised the question of what we would have done if that hadn't been the case | 20:54 |
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| dhellmann | we may want to consider, for example, a PTL mentoring program for new PTLs | 20:54 |
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| dhellmann | we may also want to put a policy in place that allows us to add cores to a project to unblock issues -- esp. security problems | 20:55 |
| ttx | More generally I think it's not totally irrelevant for the future TC to ask some projects to get their shit in order, when such shit is identified | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | but I don't think we need that right now | 20:55 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: yes, that, too | 20:55 |
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| ttx | When I talk 1:1 with people they all have one or two projects they consider a lost cause | 20:55 |
| ttx | but collectively we are not so forthcoming | 20:55 |
| ttx | I think giving advice is part of our role | 20:55 |
| markmcclain | ++ | 20:56 |
| jdg | ttx: +1 | 20:56 |
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| ttx | as well as raising red flags | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | indeed | 20:56 |
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| ttx | sometimes it's just that the PTl is struggling in an ocean of solitude and nobody raised the flag that might give him more resources | 20:56 |
| ttx | or her | 20:56 |
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| ttx | So we should get better at putting the dead fish on the table | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | sometimes having a 1:1 mentor works better for sussing out those sorts of issues than the cross-project meeting or this meeting would | 20:57 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: yeah.. do you think that would be good topic for an inperson TC gathering around the summit? | 20:57 |
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| dhellmann | we do have some folks in the community for whom this is their first "big leadership" role | 20:57 |
| ttx | dhellmann: right, I don't think the way we operate now lets us provide that good feedback and look reality in the eye | 20:57 |
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| dhellmann | and as we gain more projects, that's going to become more common | 20:58 |
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| ttx | markmcclain: it is a good topic for various in-person gatherings we accidentally have | 20:58 |
| mordred | yah - and especially as being a project no longer conveys immediate attention | 20:58 |
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| mordred | so one can be a PTL and working on a project that people have forgotten exists in the new world order | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | also true | 20:59 |
| mordred | but I agree with ttx about dead fish and tables | 20:59 |
| ttx | the fun part being, the "doomed projects list" is different for everyone :) | 20:59 |
| thingee | fwiw, I do reach out to people for advice. In my experience though, people are busy. | 20:59 |
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| fungi | i would like to see the project requirements address what happens when the criteria for being a project are not sustained over the long term | 20:59 |
| ttx | thingee: nobody said cinder was dead though. Weird. | 20:59 |
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| fungi | i think that would go a long way to addressing the "dead project" concern | 20:59 |
| thingee | ttx: regardless, I find people are busy. I'm glad this is being discussed though | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | thingee: that's a given, but I do think it's our responsibility to make time for this sort of thing | 21:00 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: yeah accidental conversations are ok, but wonder if something more public and scheduled is in order | 21:00 |
| thingee | dhellmann: +1 | 21:00 |
| ttx | In summary, I think the new governance removes the incubation ladder as a feedback mechanism, we need to replace it with something that will even work on projects on top of the ladder | 21:00 |
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| david-lyle | I think there's a large difference when the previous PTL leaves the community as well. The built in mentoring process is gone | 21:01 |
| ttx | a bit like what we did with gap analysis, only smarter | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | david-lyle: excellent point | 21:01 |
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| thingee | david-lyle: I've been really thankful for jdg helping me. | 21:01 |
| ttx | I hope to remove enough useless release management work in the future to be able to do a better job at PTL mentoring | 21:01 |
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| ttx | ok, time is up | 21:02 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 3 21:02:13 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-03-20.02.html | 21:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-03-20.02.txt | 21:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-03-20.02.log.html | 21:02 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone! | 21:02 |
| mikal | I have to duck out for a bit, will return as soon as I can | 21:02 |
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| ttx | courtesy PTL ping: dhellmann, morganfainberg, notmyname, eglynn, nikhil_k, thingee, asalkeld, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov, mikal: around ? | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:02 |
| morganfainberg | o/ | 21:02 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:02 |
| asalkeld | o/ | 21:02 |
| mestery | o/ | 21:02 |
| eglynn | o/ | 21:02 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:02 |
| notmyname | here | 21:02 |
| thingee | o/ | 21:02 |
| ttx | by the way I launch a new service called courtesy-ping-aaS | 21:02 |
| morganfainberg | LOL | 21:03 |
| ttx | so if you want to be added to that list, use that API endpoint | 21:03 |
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| jeblair | there is no unsubscribe | 21:03 |
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| ttx | #startmeeting crossproject | 21:03 |
| morganfainberg | jeblair, welcome to ping-as-as-service fun facts? | 21:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 3 21:03:36 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'crossproject' | 21:03 |
| mestery | lol | 21:03 |
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| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 21:03 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting | 21:03 |
| ttx | #topic Horizon reviews for project (e.x. Sahara, Trove) panels (SergeyLukjanov) | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Horizon reviews for project (e.x. Sahara, Trove) panels (SergeyLukjanov) (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:04 | |
| nikhil_k | o/ | 21:04 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: awake ? | 21:04 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, yup | 21:04 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: you really shouldn't be, but you are | 21:04 |
| ttx | So... Some changes in specific panels in Horizon seem to linger a bit | 21:04 |
| ttx | I think this is due to a priority mismatch, with Horizon core focusing on the.. well.. core | 21:04 |
| ttx | And because it's difficult for them to review the change functionally | 21:04 |
| SergeyLukjanov | so, the question is very simple - how to manage change requests from different projects that have own panels to horizon | 21:04 |
| ttx | Not sure how to best solve that mismatch... | 21:05 |
| ttx | it won't get any better as we add more projects that may want Horizon panels | 21:05 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yeah, unfortunately no good proposals on improving it | 21:05 |
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| jungleboyj | o/ | 21:05 |
| david-lyle | There are a couple of reasons for the lag generally | 21:05 |
| SergeyLukjanov | but it's going to be an issues when new functionality couldn't be supported on the dashboard side | 21:05 |
| david-lyle | first, they aren't targeted to any milestone, so we aren't watching for them | 21:06 |
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| david-lyle | two, the reason above, harder to verify the nuanced changes of other projects without subject matter experts | 21:06 |
| david-lyle | and as a bonus item | 21:06 |
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| david-lyle | we've grown, a lot | 21:06 |
| david-lyle | as the community continues to grow | 21:07 |
| asalkeld | sounds a bit like tempest reviews | 21:07 |
| SergeyLukjanov | the first ones seems to be able to be solved, but the second one sounds like a much bigger problem to solve | 21:07 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | yeah | 21:07 |
| ttx | there is the option of having each project be responsible of their panel, but quality would be lower (and it's generally not the same people writing core code and Horizon panel code) | 21:07 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: would that be outside of the main horizon tree? | 21:08 |
| ttx | dhellmann: a bit like tuskar-ui | 21:08 |
| dhellmann | ok | 21:08 |
| asalkeld | can you get the same functionality out of tree? | 21:08 |
| dhellmann | it seems like that's a reasonable approach, but I don't know if the technical details work out | 21:08 |
| SergeyLukjanov | sahara-dashboard was merged into the horizon during the prev. cycle :) | 21:08 |
| david-lyle | horizon has a fairly mature plugin mechanism | 21:08 |
| david-lyle | so it would be feasible to have UI plugins for services sit in a separate repo and installed onto Horizon nodes | 21:09 |
| asalkeld | also there is benefit from having ui experts reviewing your code | 21:09 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I think horizon-folk would still have to advise on how to best do one | 21:09 |
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| david-lyle | issues are UX consistency, translation, quality | 21:09 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | even if we'll have the project specific stuff out of the tree - will be horizon folks able to review changes to help keep some code quality? | 21:09 |
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| thingee | ttx: not sure how much has changed with horizon since it has been a while, but if each project's panel is a django app, can't these just live in tree of the projects? Like we plan to do with tempest? | 21:09 |
| ttx | but maybe they could directly write some (say for Nova and other core-compute stuff), and support the work of others | 21:09 |
| thingee | ttx: maybe I'm crazy | 21:09 |
| SergeyLukjanov | david-lyle, ++ | 21:09 |
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| ttx | david-lyle: we have a number of horizontal projects which are moving towards a "handle directly less projects, but provide tools and advice for all" model | 21:10 |
| annegentle | to me it's a similar problem to the docs reviews-- and we manage to keep an eye on quite a few repos so far | 21:10 |
| annegentle | so yes, what ttx said | 21:11 |
| ttx | david-lyle: you would decide who you handle directly | 21:11 |
| david-lyle | I worry UX is a different beast | 21:11 |
| jeblair | at least having a "foo-dashboard" repo facilitates overlap between foo and horizon teams | 21:11 |
| ttx | david-lyle: and provide advice for all the others rather than write them all | 21:11 |
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| cburgess | I would also point out that there arer panel in horizon today that have to touch multiple projects. The launch instance flow for instances can touch nova, neutron, and cinder. So I'm not sure how you would classify what is in core and what is in a project specific panel. | 21:11 |
| david-lyle | ttx, honestly most are written externally now and merged into tree | 21:11 |
| ttx | david-lyle: so the problem is more.. maintenance ? | 21:12 |
| david-lyle | yes | 21:12 |
| jeblair | cburgess: yes, i think those are good candidates for a basic layer supported in horizon tree | 21:12 |
| thingee | cburgess: good point | 21:12 |
| david-lyle | many projects are providing the maintenance as well | 21:12 |
| david-lyle | core review load hasn't scaled to support the diversity | 21:12 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, maintening and improving | 21:13 |
| cburgess | So to pick on cinder.. I could see a "volume" panel as being project specific, but the launch instance flow stuff is core. So there is defiantly overlap. | 21:13 |
| david-lyle | additionally, when we get rather mature code merges, the UX can be inconsistent and harder to maintain | 21:13 |
| thingee | cburgess: what about creating a volume from an image :) | 21:13 |
| cburgess | Right that too. | 21:13 |
| cburgess | It gets complicated.. quickly. | 21:13 |
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| david-lyle | but by that point it can be too far in the process | 21:14 |
| thingee | or backup a volume to an object store | 21:14 |
| ttx | david-lyle: it's a complex issue. I don't think we'll find the solution today, but I think that's the larger challenge for Horizon today | 21:14 |
| ttx | largest* | 21:14 |
| thingee | scratch the backup example | 21:14 |
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| david-lyle | I agree | 21:14 |
| david-lyle | the big-tent scares me in that regard | 21:14 |
| ttx | find its role and place in the larger tent | 21:14 |
| david-lyle | either we look like we have 17 UI teams that throw something together, or we figure a better way to scale | 21:15 |
| ttx | david-lyle: like I said, other horizontal projects have decided to move more in a tools+mentoring mode, but I see how that may not be applicabel to Horizon | 21:15 |
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| david-lyle | I think the latter is the correct approach, but details are pesky | 21:15 |
| ttx | I think it's a discussion you should have with your team and see how to reorganize to support the future | 21:16 |
| david-lyle | already have started | 21:16 |
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| ttx | not sure there is much more we can do today | 21:16 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: ? | 21:17 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yeah | 21:17 |
| david-lyle | it's a good point and not lost on me, been grappling with it for a while | 21:17 |
| ttx | anything else on that topic ? | 21:17 |
| SergeyLukjanov | david-lyle, could we followup with blueprints and issues? | 21:17 |
| david-lyle | sure | 21:17 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | david-lyle, I mean to ensure that they aren't missed on the milestones? | 21:17 |
| ttx | yes, the targeting coordination sounds solvable short-term | 21:17 |
| david-lyle | that would be ideal | 21:17 |
| ttx | ok, moving on | 21:18 |
| ttx | #topic openstack-specs discussion | 21:18 |
| SergeyLukjanov | david-lyle, okay, I'll take a look on how it could be done and contact you | 21:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "openstack-specs discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:18 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, david-lyle thx | 21:18 |
| ttx | * Add TRACE definition to log guidelines (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145245/) | 21:18 |
| david-lyle | thanks SergeyLukjanov | 21:18 |
| ttx | Sergfethx for staying up | 21:18 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: ^ | 21:18 |
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| ttx | sdague: around? | 21:19 |
| sdague | ttx: yes | 21:19 |
| sdague | so this is the first add after the major log guidelines, which is basically to take back the TRACE keyword | 21:19 |
| sdague | which we've been randomly jamming into stack traces | 21:19 |
| ttx | No opposition so far, so I raise it today to see if we can move on to TC rubberstamping next week | 21:19 |
| sdague | and use it for trace level logging (i.e. < DEBUG) | 21:19 |
| ttx | or if this needs a few more cycles | 21:20 |
| dansmith | sdague: +10^9 | 21:20 |
| ttx | my impression is that this doesn't have enough PTLs +1 yet | 21:20 |
| fungi | i was personally surprised the first time i saw a project logging stack traces/tracebacks as "trace" log level | 21:20 |
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| sdague | fungi: well, it kind of isn't. It's just jammed into the oslo log format string | 21:21 |
| sdague | slightly back doored | 21:21 |
| fungi | yeah | 21:21 |
| fungi | but yeah, not what that's for | 21:21 |
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| ttx | sdague: if you do another revision for any reason, i would add trace definition in the bullet list | 21:21 |
| sdague | anyway, please express opinions. This will clearly take longer amount of time because we'll need an oslo change | 21:21 |
| ttx | but not worth losing the curent votes over | 21:21 |
| dhellmann | sdague: did you have a chance to look at the implementation comment I left? | 21:22 |
| sdague | but I think it's the right long term direciton | 21:22 |
| sdague | dhellmann: I have not yet, I will loop back around on it | 21:22 |
| dhellmann | sdague: nothing critical, but we have to be careful about assuming that everything can use oslo.log because of the dependency cycles | 21:22 |
| sdague | ok | 21:22 |
| ttx | I read the current silence on this as consent, but we actually need +1 for consent :) | 21:22 |
| Rockyg | It would be really good to get a couple of seasoned operators' opinions from the operators list on this one. I can try to get some more attention... | 21:23 |
| sdague | Rockyg: this should not impact ops | 21:23 |
| ttx | Rockyg: that would be great | 21:23 |
| sdague | the expected use of this is at a level way below what ops should set at | 21:24 |
| * dhellmann hopes operators are not running with that much output | 21:24 | |
| dansmith | yeah, not sure this is an operator thing | 21:24 |
| cburgess | sdague: Well several of us find stack traces very useful. As long as we can still get them without having to always run sub-debug level. | 21:24 |
| Rockyg | Most ops are running at debug | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | cburgess: this isn't about stack traces, though | 21:24 |
| cburgess | OK | 21:24 |
| cburgess | Haven't read the spec. | 21:24 |
| dansmith | cburgess: I think the point is, not using TRACE for stack traces at all | 21:24 |
| cburgess | and yes... we run at debug level. | 21:24 |
| cburgess | OK thats cool. | 21:24 |
| dansmith | cburgess: we want TRACE back for actual tracing | 21:24 |
| jeblair | yeah, stack traces should be at >= error | 21:25 |
| Rockyg | ++ | 21:25 |
| morganfainberg | dansmith, ++ | 21:25 |
| cburgess | Yeah so I agree with that then. Move stack traces to debug and let operators choose debug if they want. | 21:25 |
| ttx | Free TRACE! | 21:25 |
| sdague | jeblair: agreed | 21:25 |
| cburgess | or error | 21:25 |
| sdague | cburgess: no, stack traces should be errors, I think that's in the first log spec | 21:25 |
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| sdague | because that should never be an ok thing | 21:25 |
| cburgess | Thats fine with me. | 21:25 |
| jeblair | cburgess: yes, certainly that if you are running at debug, you should see stack traces | 21:25 |
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| dhellmann | cburgess: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/openstack-specs/tree/specs/log-guidelines.rst | 21:26 |
| cburgess | OK I'm on the same page. | 21:26 |
| cburgess | I don't see how this is an operator issue then. | 21:26 |
| sdague | cburgess: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/openstack-specs/tree/specs/log-guidelines.rst#n246 more specifically | 21:26 |
| cburgess | stack traces still happen, debug is debug, and trace will be a new thing. Seems fine to me. | 21:26 |
| ttx | 21:26 | |
| sdague | just ... go vote on it | 21:27 |
| ttx | yeah | 21:27 |
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| ttx | #topic rootwrap overhead - should we stay on this plan (sdague) | 21:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rootwrap overhead - should we stay on this plan (sdague) (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:28 | |
| bknudson | just a warning that code that's not tested (e.g., if trace isn't enabled) often winds up broken | 21:28 |
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| ttx | For those who missed the previous episodes, rootwrap was built for privilege separation, not really for performance | 21:28 |
| ttx | Some services make heavy use of rootwrapped system calls, so the low performance impacts them | 21:28 |
| ttx | and apparently as a result, some operators patch it out (although that's the first time I hear of that, I could use some details) | 21:28 |
| dhellmann | are those projects adopting the daemon mode work you did? | 21:28 |
| ttx | This basically means they are running the rootwrap-using nodes as root, which IMHO is not a great idea | 21:28 |
| ttx | dhellmann: no | 21:28 |
| ttx | The problem was *already* addressed on oslo.rootwrap side in Juno, with a high-performance daemon mode which is actually even faster than shelling out to sudo. | 21:29 |
| ttx | But that change was not picked up by Neutron or Nova yet | 21:29 |
| ttx | Neutron has a Kilo spec for it | 21:29 |
| cburgess | I'll fall on the grenade here. | 21:29 |
| ttx | sdague: but you had other suggestions ? | 21:29 |
| sdague | ttx: 2 things | 21:29 |
| thingee | ttx: or cinder https://review.openstack.org/#/c/149677/ | 21:29 |
| cburgess | So we did extensive performance testing of nova-network nova-compute in the G cycle with sudo and rootwrap. | 21:29 |
| mestery | ttx: For Neutron, we plan to get rootwrap daemon mode in by Kilo-3. | 21:29 |
| cburgess | Its wasn't even close. | 21:29 |
| cburgess | So we patched back in the ability to select sudo. | 21:30 |
| ttx | cburgess: not the daemon mode, I suspect | 21:30 |
| cburgess | Nope not daemon mode. Wasn't an option yet. | 21:30 |
| cburgess | So I will freely admit that our current practice is based on old performance data. | 21:30 |
| ttx | cburgess: no question the "normal" mode sucks. It was designed for a couple calls in nova | 21:30 |
| ttx | Neutron calls it a few hundreds times when creating a network | 21:30 |
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| cburgess | The daemon mode sound interesting and is something I would like to play with. But until nova and neutron support it (the two heaviest users of rootwrap) I don't know that it should be the only option. | 21:31 |
| ttx | See perf impact at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/81798/ | 21:31 |
| sdague | yeh, nova is going to land a patch to make sudo selectable | 21:31 |
| jogo | nova is holding off supporting daemon mode until it lands in neutron | 21:31 |
| sdague | the other issue is the rootwrap policies are full of some pretty big holes | 21:31 |
| * dhellmann hopes mestery doesn't say neutron is waiting for nova | 21:31 | |
| dansmith | sdague: it's landed | 21:32 |
| cburgess | Right so the patch to allow sudo again was added (by me) because a recent setuptools change undid the hack in PBR to make rootwrap perfomant. This resulted in gate failures due to timeouts. | 21:32 |
| mestery | lol | 21:32 |
| mestery | No, we plan to land that in kilo-3 | 21:32 |
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| mestery | The work slipped from kilo-2, but I have high confidence it will land in kilo-3 | 21:32 |
| ttx | you realize "running with sudo" is the same as running as root security-wise ? | 21:32 |
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| dhellmann | mestery: early enough that nova is likely to be able to land it, too? | 21:32 |
| sdague | nova-compute's policies actually make 0 sense because there are at least half a dozen own the box holes in it | 21:32 |
| ttx | since you grant the user the ability to run anythign under sudo | 21:32 |
| mestery | dhellmann: I'm not sure about that. The services split caused the author a slight headache I think, but we have a plan now on it. | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | sdague: is that an issue with rootwrap, or with the policy definitions? | 21:33 |
| cburgess | ttx: Yup I'm aware. | 21:33 |
| ttx | with policy definitions | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | sdague: like, do you see it as fundamental? | 21:33 |
| sdague | dhellmann: it's an issue with the assumption that some of these services can be priv separated | 21:33 |
| ttx | almost everything uses CommandFilter which sucks | 21:33 |
| * Rockyg I thought ttx was going to say running with sudo was like running with scissors | 21:33 | |
| cburgess | But as sdague pointed out you can do that anyways with the current policies. Its a risk we take on and have to be sure we are aware of audit. | 21:33 |
| ttx | cburgess: not for all the nodes though. I agree that the network and compute nodes have policies that basically let you do anything, because nobody takes the time to fix them | 21:34 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: because they need to do so many things as root? | 21:34 |
| ttx | but an api or a metadata node are pretty secure | 21:34 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yes | 21:34 |
| cburgess | ttx: Agreed and we only patch it back in for nova. | 21:34 |
| cburgess | ttx: We don't use neutron yet, but I suspect we would for that as well, though I will need to benchmark neutron and the new daemon mode in kilo. | 21:35 |
| ttx | I wish that instead of patching it out people would spend more time fixing the policies or adopting the daemon mode | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | ok, well, yeah, if there are real cases of that we should figure out if we can just run a root-level service with a small application-specific api of some sort | 21:35 |
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| dansmith | cburgess: IIRC, you can't use it with nova yet unless you make nova's rootwrap support support daemon mode | 21:35 |
| cburgess | dansmith: Right | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | sdague: but when I suggested neutron do that instead of building this general purpose thing into rootwrap they said that would be too hard | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | the surface area may be different for nova's needs | 21:36 |
| dansmith | fixing the policy definitions and supporting daemon mode are one thing, | 21:36 |
| cburgess | So seems like we should get nova using daemon mode then do a 3 way performance analysis. If daemon mode is as good as it looks remove the sudo option again. | 21:36 |
| dansmith | but I think that precluding support for sudo in the tree is not a necessary policy | 21:36 |
| dhellmann | dansmith: ++ | 21:36 |
| cburgess | dansmith: daemon mode and policy fixes are separate things. | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | on the other hand, then we have to ask which mode we'd test with | 21:37 |
| cburgess | Also this feel like a nova and maybe neutron issue and not something that has to impact all projects. | 21:37 |
| dansmith | cburgess: the two are required to demonstrate any advantage to using rootwrap, was my point | 21:37 |
| cburgess | dansmith: Agreed | 21:37 |
| ttx | dansmith: it was done at a time when performance was not so much an issue, and we hoped people would just write better filter definitions | 21:37 |
| dansmith | dhellmann: we can test with rootwrap if we want, that's fine.. I don't think there is much risk there for the more relaxed case breaking | 21:37 |
| dansmith | ttx: yeah, I understand | 21:37 |
| ttx | the sad truth is, people don't care taht much about privilege separation | 21:38 |
| ttx | neutron (which can still use sudo) is most often run with it | 21:38 |
| fungi | it's also worth considering the risk profile of letting these services do things locally as root. in situations where they're the only thing running on the machine, it may not actually be buying you much to prevent giving them control over all the other things that system isn't actually doing | 21:38 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, people may not care but that is because there hasn't been a reason to care (yet, thankfully) | 21:38 |
| dansmith | well, and there are people that don't want to solve the problem that way anyway | 21:38 |
| dansmith | we spend (too much) time getting our SELinux policies super tight | 21:39 |
| sdague | well it only helps if you *really* know you've got policy that doesn't let you get out | 21:39 |
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| ttx | dansmith, sdague: so the patch is not patching out, it's just allowing to use sudo back again ? | 21:39 |
| dansmith | fungi: exactly | 21:39 |
| morganfainberg | but with the isolation fungi just described (many people run that way) it is less important to have the isolation | 21:39 |
| sdague | ttx: correct | 21:39 |
| dansmith | ttx: yes | 21:39 |
| ttx | sdague: i'm fine with that | 21:39 |
| cburgess | ttx: Yes its an option, uses rootwrap by default. | 21:39 |
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| ttx | matches what Neutron has | 21:39 |
| fungi | what rootwrap is mostly buying is safety from someone coercing a service into doing things it wasn't intended to do, but preventing root access is a poor proxy for that sort of protection | 21:39 |
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| morganfainberg | this is a nice middleground fix allow sudo where people want to use sudo | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | sdague, ttx, dansmith : should we push that up into the oslo.rootwrap code itself, so applications only have to deal with one api? | 21:40 |
| sdague | fungi: right, agreed. which is why I wanted to raise it as an issue | 21:40 |
| ttx | rootwrap doesn't enforce being the only option... | 21:40 |
| dansmith | dhellmann: that would be a library option to ... not do anything? :) | 21:40 |
| morganfainberg | ttx but nova not supporting anything else does. | 21:40 |
| ttx | so Nova can definitely support both options | 21:40 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, exactly | 21:40 |
| cburgess | My work here is done. | 21:40 |
| ttx | it's nova-side code anyway | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | dansmith: a library option to use a function that calls sudo instead of our wrapper, so nova doesn't have to care at all | 21:40 |
| sdague | because it seems like we're doing a lot of work here, to provide options, but as no one is really auditing the policies effectively, it seems.... not effective | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | sdague: ++ | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | dansmith: and also instead of nova and neutron both having their own version of that option, and wrapper code | 21:41 |
| sdague | it's like belt and suspenders, but no pants | 21:41 |
| dansmith | dhellmann: well, my point is, it seems weird to have the library have a short-circuit option, because if I want to use sudo I could just snip that import line from nova and be good, instead of having to install the library for no reason, right? | 21:41 |
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| ttx | It's also worth noting that in many cases, the root call is not even necessary | 21:41 |
| ttx | it's just convenient | 21:41 |
| jogo | sdague: I once brought this up with one of the 'security' groups in OpenStack and they just shrugged and didn't want to audit | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | dansmith: it makes rootwrap become "run this as root somehow" instead of "use your wrapper to run this" | 21:42 |
| dansmith | I'd really like to be able to say "use sudo" and not even have the library imported as native support in the tree | 21:42 |
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| fungi | things like selinux and apparmor (and even just careful application of extended attributes and cgroups-imposed namespacing) are probably closer to where the real safety net should be, but that's a lot more complicated and varying cross-platform | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | dansmith: why make every application author implement that? | 21:42 |
| dansmith | dhellmann: I suppose, just seems overkill, but meh | 21:42 |
| morganfainberg | jogo, "containers or isolation of concerns mostly mitigates the issue" i mean - to be fair if someone compromised neutron they could still do all neutron could do w/ rootwrap. | 21:42 |
| ttx | sdague: you mentioned capabilities too | 21:42 |
| morganfainberg | which isn't a small amount of breaking things. | 21:42 |
| sdague | fungi: bingo, that seems like where the effort should be spent to me, honestly | 21:42 |
| * dhellmann takes off his Killing Code Duplication hat | 21:42 | |
| dansmith | fungi: yep | 21:42 |
| ttx | sdague: I think it's not completely crazy to grant he neutron user rights over networky stuff | 21:43 |
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| ttx | and shave a few thousands rootwrap calls | 21:43 |
| sdague | ttx: I was told neutron was moving to a model like that at the nova midcycle, maybe mestery can speak up | 21:43 |
| ttx | to me it's a complentary approach | 21:43 |
| fungi | except that networky stuff can often be parlayed into full root access to the system anyway | 21:43 |
| dansmith | dhellmann: code dedup is good, but less-friggin-libraries-required wins for me every time :) | 21:43 |
| ttx | complementary* | 21:43 |
| bknudson | there's at least a review in progress to get selinux in triploe - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/108168/ | 21:43 |
| bknudson | tripleo | 21:43 |
| ttx | fungi: you stole my bullet :) | 21:44 |
| mestery | sdague: To be honest, we're hoping to get rootwrap in and I'm hoping we can discuss these aspects at the summit with the broader community | 21:44 |
| dhellmann | dansmith: meh. Work on more than one project for a while. | 21:44 |
| mestery | As someone said, we shouldn't solve htis one way in neutron and another in nova | 21:44 |
| fungi | definitely one of those classic security arguments where the perfect can be the enemy of the good, but not sure we've really got candidates for either perfect or good | 21:44 |
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| mestery | fungi: ++ | 21:44 |
| morganfainberg | fungi, +∞ | 21:45 |
| fungi | the main thing i see rootwrap doing is letting some deployers feel like they have control over what a service can or can't do, but it's the "false sense of" variety of security | 21:45 |
| ttx | I would pursue all options. Allow nova to run sudo directly for the less security-conscious. Enable rootwrap daemon mode for those who want a decent tradeoff. Add capabilities to shave a thousand rootwrap calls. Improve the rootwrap filter definitions so that they actually filter | 21:46 |
| sdague | fungi: yeh, that's a big concern for me | 21:46 |
| fungi | and i have doubts that many deployers/operators are fine-tuning the default supplied rootwrap rules to begin with | 21:46 |
| sdague | I mean - https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/etc/nova/rootwrap.d/compute.filters#L39 | 21:46 |
| cburgess | ttx: +1 | 21:46 |
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| ttx | sdague: I've been removing that one at least once in the past | 21:47 |
| ttx | it just keeps on reappearing | 21:47 |
| cburgess | Dear god that line scares me | 21:47 |
| bknudson | needs a hacking check | 21:47 |
| sdague | well there is also dd, cp in there | 21:47 |
| morganfainberg | cburgess, haha | 21:47 |
| ttx | and chown | 21:47 |
| cburgess | Yeah | 21:47 |
| cburgess | Wow I just really started looking at that file. | 21:48 |
| sdague | yeh, like I said, it's kind of pointless | 21:48 |
| jeblair | there seems to be a reviewer education problem | 21:48 |
| cburgess | I'm going to go back to my safe pretend world now. | 21:48 |
| ttx | the nova-compute node is running as root basically | 21:48 |
| sdague | ttx: right | 21:48 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, shhhh | 21:48 |
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| morganfainberg | ttx, you'll scare someone | 21:48 |
| dansmith | sdague: the qemu-nbd one is probably the worst in there | 21:48 |
| ttx | rootwrap just gives you a framlework to fix that, it's not a work-free bullet | 21:48 |
| morganfainberg | :P | 21:48 |
| dansmith | sdague: export /dev/sda as an nbd device.. game over :) | 21:48 |
| morganfainberg | cburgess, what has been seen cannot be unseen. though yelling lalalalala helps sometimes. | 21:49 |
| sdague | yeh, there are so many game overs | 21:49 |
| sdague | which is why I'm not sure this approach works | 21:49 |
| ttx | sdague: buggy filters make it just as unsecure as the option of using sudo directly | 21:49 |
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| morganfainberg | ttx, might make it worse. because it provides the sense of security falsely | 21:50 |
| ttx | morganfainberg: true | 21:50 |
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| ttx | but most people think "running under a non-root user" makes them safe too | 21:50 |
| ttx | The main issue to me is.. even when we fix them (I think I did it twice over the years) people keep on re-breaking them | 21:51 |
| mriedem | did i already miss any discussion on bug 967832 ? | 21:51 |
| ttx | difficult to gate on it | 21:51 |
| sdague | anyway, it seems like on the compute nodes we should just admit it's basically game over, not sugar coat it at this level. Do it at the selinux/apparmor level | 21:51 |
| ttx | mriedem: no | 21:51 |
| ttx | sdague: or fix the filters | 21:51 |
| dansmith | honestly, | 21:51 |
| dansmith | there are two valuable things on a comptue node | 21:52 |
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| dansmith | the images with other people's data, and the mq credentials | 21:52 |
| dansmith | if you get the latter, you can do anything you want to the entire deployment | 21:52 |
| dansmith | both of those things are readable by nova's user anyway | 21:52 |
| morganfainberg | sdague, i have opiinion on selinux and apparmor, but putting the enforcement at that level seems waaaaay more sane [regardless of which] than rootwrap | 21:52 |
| sdague | yep | 21:52 |
| dansmith | if you're running your company's imap server alongside nova-compute, you're in for more trouble anyway | 21:53 |
| lifeless | ! | 21:53 |
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| fungi | from a vmt perspective, having a handle on this and publicizing that it "does not do the things you think" for securing a deployment would help reduce what could otherwise become needless vulnerability reports | 21:53 |
| ttx | We have one more topic to cover | 21:53 |
| morganfainberg | dansmith, the mq-creds should be guarded with signed messages.. | 21:53 |
| cburgess | So I shouldn't be running my our payroll processing and credit card processor on the same server and my openstack cloud? | 21:53 |
| morganfainberg | dansmith, but thats another story | 21:53 |
| dansmith | morganfainberg: should be but they're not | 21:53 |
| morganfainberg | dansmith, lets plan to circle back on that at L summit? | 21:53 |
| morganfainberg | dansmith, i want to see that gap closed. | 21:53 |
| ttx | cburgess: you should run them in containers on the same machine | 21:54 |
| cburgess | morganfainberg +1 | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | dansmith, will bug you on that front a bit later on this cycle? | 21:54 |
| dansmith | morganfainberg: it's been on the list for a long time, but.. yeah :) | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | cburgess, you too. | 21:54 |
| cburgess | ttx: Yeah I was joking and we are moving to containerizing everything. | 21:54 |
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| sdague | because containers never have exploits... :) | 21:54 |
| ttx | cburgess: because that is safe (joking too) | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | sdague, ever. | 21:54 |
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| morganfainberg | sdague, EVAR | 21:54 |
| ttx | OK, let's cover the last topic quick | 21:54 |
| ttx | #topic Bug 967832 (mriedem) | 21:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bug 967832 (mriedem) (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:55 | |
| cburgess | ttx: I'm terrible at sarcasm. morganfainberg can verify this | 21:55 |
| ttx | and I'm French | 21:55 |
| ttx | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/967832 | 21:55 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/055801.html | 21:55 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, he's worse at it :P | 21:55 |
| ttx | mriedem: you have 5 min :) | 21:55 |
| cburgess | LOL | 21:55 |
| mriedem | so morganfainberg already commented on this in the ML, | 21:55 |
| mriedem | basically this is a bug across projects since grizzly, | 21:55 |
| mriedem | looks like there was an approved spec in juno in neutron that didn't land code and wasn't re-proposed for kilo, | 21:55 |
| morganfainberg | i actually like the concept of putting this into middleware that can receive registered "do X on event Y" | 21:56 |
| mriedem | wondering if everyone is in agreement about fixing this thing and then looking for best solutions since it's going to be probably similar impl in the various projects | 21:56 |
| morganfainberg | i would be 100% behind that. | 21:56 |
| cburgess | mriedem: From an operator perspective I can tell you that this bug sucks, badly. | 21:56 |
| mriedem | so nova tells middleware to call nova delete on an instance when a project that instance is running under is gone? | 21:56 |
| fungi | it might make tempest devs a lot happier too | 21:56 |
| morganfainberg | mriedem, yep. | 21:56 |
| jogo | mriedem: yeah, callbacks | 21:57 |
| morganfainberg | mriedem or spool, it for a periodic | 21:57 |
| mtreinish | fungi: yes it would, it makes the cleanup story much easier | 21:57 |
| mriedem | but...does nova need the tenant to exist for the delete to happen, or does middlware process the callback before deleting the tenant? | 21:57 |
| morganfainberg | mriedem up to nova to figure it all out the best way to not crater itself | 21:57 |
| notmyname | mriedem: middleware in what project? nova or keystone? | 21:57 |
| lifeless | I think you need a bit of both | 21:57 |
| morganfainberg | notmyname, i'd put it as a package in keystonemiddleware | 21:57 |
| mriedem | notmyname: keystone | 21:57 |
| lifeless | you want events for latency | 21:57 |
| morganfainberg | but not in auth_token | 21:57 |
| morganfainberg | notmyname, s/package/module | 21:57 |
| notmyname | thanks | 21:57 |
| cburgess | I don't think you would need the tenant to exist. | 21:58 |
| lifeless | and you want either a lossless history or a diff style check to deal with servers that were down etc | 21:58 |
| mriedem | did anyone look at the WIPs from neutron in juno? https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:abandoned+project:openstack/neutron+branch:master+topic:bp/tenant-delete,n,z | 21:58 |
| cburgess | Each project would only cleanup its own local resources. | 21:58 |
| mriedem | mestery: do you remember those? ^ | 21:58 |
| jogo | cburgess: agreed, making sure tenant exists makes this a lot more complex | 21:58 |
| cburgess | The problem we have is cross project relationships. Like volumes attached to VMs. | 21:58 |
| cburgess | But maybe we don't care. | 21:58 |
| notmyname | middleware sounds risky since (1) it requires coordination for things that can't be coordinated (eg what happens if an instance fails to delete?) and (2) it will _really_ slow down the delete call to keystone | 21:58 |
| cburgess | Maybe we just take destructive do it anyways actions because its all being nuked. | 21:58 |
| morganfainberg | notmyname, it's a callback - i assume nova would spool it for a delete job that is periodic | 21:59 |
| bknudson | are there any other examples where a server needs to keep track of state in another server? | 21:59 |
| mriedem | does multi-tenancy muck this up at all | 21:59 |
| morganfainberg | not a 'do it right now' | 21:59 |
| mriedem | ? | 21:59 |
| morganfainberg | mriedem, not really. | 21:59 |
| mriedem | can i have volumes attached to my instance from another project? | 21:59 |
| notmyname | an alternate solution would be a background keystone scrubber that looks at what's been deleted and sends the related commands to different services (projects) | 21:59 |
| morganfainberg | mriedem, god i hope not | 21:59 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: ++ | 21:59 |
| mriedem | notmyname: yeah, but how long does that keep casting? | 21:59 |
| mtreinish | mriedem: I don't think so, that sounds like a recipe for disaster | 21:59 |
| morganfainberg | notmyname, sure - i'd just say whatever would be a listener that takes a callback | 21:59 |
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| notmyname | morganfainberg: I'm still not clear on what you mean by "callback | 22:00 |
| morganfainberg | notmyname, so we publish the framework you register a function to do something | 22:00 |
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| lifeless | notmyname: or the projects could do the checking | 22:00 |
| notmyname | and I'm considering what happens when someone is deleted from keystone and has a PB of data in swift | 22:00 |
| jogo | notmyname: you register a function for the keystone janitor to call upon tenant deletion | 22:00 |
| lifeless | notmyname: making keystone not have to know whats dependent on it | 22:00 |
| lifeless | notmyname: which would be better I think | 22:00 |
| bknudson | keystone_middleware.on_project_delete(function_to_call) | 22:00 |
| ttx | Out of time -- Looks like that discussion can continue on the thread? We can cover it at next week meeting if necessary ? | 22:00 |
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| morganfainberg | ttx ++ | 22:01 |
| mriedem | sure | 22:01 |
| notmyname | lifeless: but keystone does know. that's the whole point of keystone. it knows everything | 22:01 |
| ttx | Feel free to continue to argue on #openstack-dev though | 22:01 |
| morganfainberg | notmyname, no keystone doesn't know what depends on it. | 22:01 |
| morganfainberg | anyway | 22:01 |
| ttx | we just ned to vacate channel | 22:01 |
| jogo | notmyname: it doesn't know how much data a user has in swift. | 22:01 |
| ttx | No time for open discussion | 22:01 |
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| ttx | I'll just paste the link to the 1:1 syncs we had today, focused on the kilo-2 tag | 22:01 |
| ttx | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2015/ptl_sync.2015-02-03-09.06.html | 22:01 |
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| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 3 22:02:03 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-03-21.03.html | 22:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-03-21.03.txt | 22:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-03-21.03.log.html | 22:02 |
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| ttx | Thx everyone, good one | 22:02 |
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