Tuesday, 2015-02-03

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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb  3 08:00:16 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:00
anteayaif you are here for the third party meeting, do say hello08:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"08:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb  3 08:58:11 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-03-08.00.html08:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-03-08.00.txt08:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-03-08.00.log.html08:58
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anteaya#startmeeting nova-net-to-neutron-migration09:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb  3 09:00:40 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.09:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.09:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova_net_to_neutron_migration'09:00
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anteayahey oleg09:01
anteayahi jlibosva09:01
anteayaping gus belmoreira09:01
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anteayahey there09:01
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anteayalet's get going09:02
anteaya#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova-nettoNeutronMigration09:02
anteayaour agenda is on there09:02
anteayahey gus09:02
anteaya#topic  the state of the Neutron spec (obondarev)09:03
*** openstack changes topic to "the state of the Neutron spec (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:03
obondarevso we have new revisions on both parts of spec, thanks to Angus09:03
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anteayathank you gus09:03
obondarevno negative reviews which is good09:03
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obondarevbut also lack of positive reviews which is not good09:04
anteayawell we have two from nova core09:04
obondarevthe fist part is pretty close to merge as we have +1 from Joe and Michael from nova side09:04
anteayaso that is a start09:04
anteayaright, yay09:04
obondarevI think we need also positive marks from operators side and then neutron folks can finally approve09:04
obondarevthe second part is not so close as some details still need to cleared09:04
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obondarevsuch as working with a mix of hypervisors on nova-network and neutron09:05
obondarevsecurity groups handling in mixed mode09:05
obondarevnew neutron api extension (needed or not)09:05
obondarevl3 level migration09:05
anteayaany questions on the latest round of spec patchsets from anyone present?09:06
anteayanice summary obondarev09:06
obondarevanteaya: thanks09:06
jlibosvanot from me09:06
anteayaokay so we need to get eyes on them then09:06
anteayaplease review and tell your friends09:06
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gusI'll ping a few people who gave earlier comments and get them to re-review.09:07
anteayaI will also be tracking folks down09:07
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anteayagus: great thank you09:07
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anteayaany more discussion needed for this topic?09:07
belmoreiraobondarev: I'm looking into it again... but as operator is was fine for me last week09:07
obondarevbelmoreira: yeah, thanks09:07
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anteayalet's move to implementation09:08
anteaya#topic the state of implementation (obondarev)09:08
*** openstack changes topic to "the state of implementation (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:08
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anteayaoleg again :)09:08
obondarevimplementation is progressing as well09:08
obondarevjlibosva: can you please update on db migration?09:08
anteaya#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/148260/09:09
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anteayajlibosva: are you available now?09:09
anteayaperhaps he got pulled away for a moment09:10
anteayaobondarev: do you want to go ahead with the proxy summary?09:10
obondarevfor nova-net proxy mode I've put a WIP on gerrit09:10
anteaya#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/09:10
obondarevthe idea is to override network related objects in nova09:11
jlibosvaI was afk for a while09:11
obondarevso that they use not db but neutron api to get/save data09:11
obondarevwill continue to work on it09:11
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obondarevjlibosva: do you want to update on Db migration?09:11
anteayaobondarev: looks like your latest patchest is failing jenkins09:11
gusobondarev: it looks good so far, btw.  I see you're building a up a list of what info needs to be constructed too, in case anyone is curious.09:11
jlibosvaobondarev: yep09:12
obondarevgus: thanks, yeah, the list for networks is there09:12
jlibosvaso I'm doing some final stuff on security groups and floating ips09:12
obondarevanteaya: I'll look what is failing09:13
anteayaobondarev: great thanks09:13
anteayajlibosva: so it looks like right now you need more reviews09:13
obondarevjlibosva: cool! thank you09:13
jlibosvaI'll send a new PS probably tomorrow, thanks Oleg for doing reviews09:13
anteayajlibosva: ah okay09:14
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anteayaobondarev: and your patchset needs to pass jenkins and then get more reviews, yeah?09:14
obondarevanteaya: right09:14
anteayaokay so we are in a good place from our end09:15
gusanteaya: .. and be completed, of course ;)09:15
anteayanice work obondarev and jlibosva09:15
obondarevgus: correct :)09:15
anteayagus smart guy09:15
anteayathank you09:15
anteayalet's move onto documentation09:15
anteaya#topic documentation (obondarev)09:15
*** openstack changes topic to "documentation (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:15
obondarevso I contacted emagana over email09:15
anteayaobondarev: thank you09:15
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obondarevhe said he can start working on docs basing on the spec initially09:16
anteayahe can't make our meeting time09:16
obondarevhe'll tell me if he needs something else09:16
anteayado we have a url of a wip patch?09:16
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obondarevnot yet09:16
anteayalet's see if we can get one this week09:16
anteayaI don't care what is in the patch yet, I would just really like a url so we can all see where we are09:17
anteayaeven if all we have is a title09:17
obondarevanteaya: absolutely09:17
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anteayaobondarev: can you communicate that need to edgar?09:17
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obondarevanteaya: I can09:17
anteayathank you09:18
anteayaalso in here I have a bit09:18
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anteayaso the operators meetup is coming up09:18
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anteayaand to ensure the operators have a summary of our activity here09:18
anteayaI have asked sdague to make a report since he is going to be there09:19
anteayahe will represent the tc perspective09:19
anteayaso we just have to ensure he has the latest of what we have so he can present it09:19
anteayasince it will take a presentation for some folks to even be aware of our status09:20
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anteayaso I expect a flurry of questions after the meetup, most of which we have already answered09:20
anteayabut for which they haven't taken the time to look09:20
anteayaso any documention we have ready would be very helpful09:20
anteayajust for information sake09:21
anteayaany questions here?09:21
obondarevanteaya: thanks for the info09:21
anteayamoving on09:21
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anteaya#topic testing (belmoreira)09:21
*** openstack changes topic to "testing (belmoreira) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:21
anteayaso any thoughts on testing this week?09:21
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anteayaare we close to having something to test?09:22
anteayabelmoreira: have you been pulled away?09:22
belmoreirain terms of testing I expect to start the proxy tests after some reviews09:22
anteayahere we are09:22
anteayabelmoreira: wonderful, thank you09:22
anteayabelmoreira: we look forward to your feedback09:23
obondarevthe proxy is not ready for tests I'm afraid09:23
anteayaalso in the neutron meeting of several hours ago, salvadore mentioned we should start testing the db migration09:23
belmoreiraobondarev: yes, it needs to mature and pass through some reviews...09:24
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anteayabut no follow up to know if he was volunteering or just shareing his thoughts09:24
obondarevand to be finished ;)09:24
anteayaso for the specs, how are we doing framing the testing?09:24
anteayaany current concerns?09:24
belmoreiraanteaya: the DB migration is more tricky for me... I expect to use the tool provided but I need to adapt it09:25
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anteayabelmoreira: great09:25
anteayagus: have you the link to the github script the yahoo dev showed you?09:25
gusthe tests have no hope of passing, but we could still start writing the functional/tempest/grenade tests though... test-driven development and all that.09:25
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anteayagus: that is a good idea09:25
gusanteaya: one sec ...09:25
anteayagus: thanks09:25
anteayawho would be avialble to start writing a test?09:26
anteayayou don't have to write all of them, let's just start with a test09:26
anteayato get the ball rolling09:26
gus#link https://github.com/shraddha-pandhe/Tools/tree/master/NovaNetToNeutronMigration09:27
anteayaor do we need to collect more people?09:27
anteayagus: thank you09:27
anteayagus: can you take a minute and explain that script?09:27
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anteayaand how it came to exist09:27
gusspandhe gave spec feedback along the lines of "you can do this live with ...", I reinforced the "dumb" vs "smart" approach, and encouraged him to make his smart tool available for other people in his situation.09:29
anteayaher actually09:29
gusThis looks like a good example of exactly that.09:29
anteayaI met her at the nova mid-cycle09:29
gusoh her, my apologies for gender assumptions.09:29
anteayagus: cool thank you for the encouragement to her to take responsibility as well as the link to the script and the summary09:30
obondarevthat's a nice thing to see09:30
anteayaat some point it would be great to have a licence on the repo, if someoen is talking to her before I do09:30
anteayaand yes, it is ideal in terms of the role we are playing09:30
anteayawe are taking responsibility for providing this much and are able to encourage and help operators do the rest to suit them09:31
anteayaso nice job all around here09:31
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anteayabelmoreira: would anything in shraddha's repo be of benefit to your use case?09:32
gusyes, I was happy to see how quickly she shared the script publicly once I suggested it.09:32
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anteayashe did attend last week's meeting, perhaps she will attend this meeting again in future09:32
belmoreiraanteaya: maybe...09:32
anteayabelmoreira: great, if so I encourage you to chat with shraddha09:33
anteayashe seemed very approachable when I met her09:33
anteayaany more for testing?09:33
anteayaI'll move to open discussion now09:34
anteaya#topic open discussion09:34
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*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:34
belmoreiraanteaya: the use case that shraddha is describing is a little different from mine... I need to check09:34
anteayabelmoreira: fair enough09:34
anteayadoes anyone have anything they wish to share that hastn' already been captured?09:35
anteayaif we are all chatted out I won't keep you09:35
anteayathanks for your coninuted diligence and hard work09:35
anteayaI really appreciate it09:35
anteayaand we are progressing nicely09:36
obondarevthanks Anita09:36
anteayaso for next week, let's get as many reviews as we can09:36
anteayaand thank you all09:36
obondarevthanks everyone09:36
anteayabe free to do the next thing on your list09:36
anteayasee you all next week09:36
jlibosvathanks, bye09:36
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"09:36
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb  3 09:36:57 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)09:37
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-03-09.00.html09:37
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-03-09.00.txt09:37
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-03-09.00.log.html09:37
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n0ano#startmeeting gantt15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb  3 15:00:28 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'gantt'15:00
n0anoanyone here to talk about the scheduler?15:00
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n0anoOK, let'15:02
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n0anoOK, let's start15:02
* n0ano ' and return are too close15:02
edleafen0ano: or your fingers are too fat15:02
* bauzas like a and tab for a french kb15:02
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n0anoedleafe, I never thought of that :-)15:03
n0ano#topic remove DB access spec15:03
*** openstack changes topic to "remove DB access spec (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:03
edleafeunfortunately, not a lot of follow-up after the midcycle15:03
n0anoedleafe, I see activity on this, I think most of the outstanding comments are kind of implementation details, how do you feel about it15:03
bauzasedleafe: I left a review, sorry for the short notice15:03
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bauzasedleafe: I had no big issues but I think you need to address 2 points15:04
edleafeI'm wondering if this is going to be possible at all15:04
alex_xu_I just comment on some more small thing, I didn't have any big concern15:04
edleafeIf the spec isn't approved yet, I don't see how we're going to get all the changes that would be needed in by the FF15:04
bauzasedleafe: agreed15:05
n0anoedleafe, I haven't given up yet and we can provide help on the changes15:05
bauzasedleafe: that doesn't mean you can't land a patch15:05
edleafealex_xu_: yes, I responded to your comments15:05
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bauzasedleafe: because most of the stuff has been agreed15:05
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n0anowhat bauzas said15:06
edleafebauzas: I can probably land a patch or two, but I see several patches needed to get these changes in15:06
bauzasedleafe: my comments are implementation details that would have come up in a review y'know :)15:06
edleafeJust changing the compute node stuff to be versioned will be fun15:07
bauzasedleafe: I don't think so15:07
n0anobauzas, hence my comment on implementation details15:07
bauzasedleafe: I mean for adding a new col15:07
bauzasn0ano: so we're in violent agreement eh ?15:07
n0anobauzas, yet again15:07
edleafebauzas: you don't think that there will be discussion over how to best do this?15:07
edleafeit is a very new thing to be adding versioning to the database15:08
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bauzasedleafe: keep it simple*15:08
bauzasedleafe: just add a col and that's it15:08
bauzasedleafe: that's just a migration script of 4 lines to write15:08
bauzas2 for upgrading and 2 for downgrading15:09
edleafebauzas: I know how to do it; it's answering the questions that will come up over *why*15:09
n0anoadding the column is easy as long as the usage of that column is simple15:09
bauzasedleafe: eh, that's in the spec15:09
n0anoedleafe, I think we thrashed that out at the meetup so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone15:09
bauzasedleafe: so prepare your patch, do your series and once we're good to go with the spec, we can fire your patches15:10
edleafen0ano: I hope your15:10
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edleafeI hope you're right15:10
* n0ano refuses to comment on fat fingers15:10
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edleafen0ano: Oh, I know just how fat my fingers are15:10
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* bauzas sizing his fingersz15:11
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n0anoI think our way forward is fairly simple...15:11
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n0ano1. edleafe to address the minor issues with the spec15:11
n0ano2. work on the patches15:12
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bauzas3. grab coffee and fix CI15:12
n0ano3. update the DB with the new version column (address any concerns that come up)15:12
n0ano4. declare success15:12
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bauzas5. iterate over the previous 415:13
n0anobauzas, +115:13
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n0anoI think we're all in agreement here, let's move on15:13
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n0ano#topic detach service from computenode15:13
*** openstack changes topic to "detach service from computenode (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:13
n0anobauzas, this is yours15:13
bauzasso I was greedy15:13
bauzasI already discussed that with jaypipes15:14
bauzasbut let me explain again here15:14
alex_xu_heh, I already know the story15:14
edleafeme too15:14
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bauzasso, virt drivers report a list of nodes15:14
n0anoalex_xu_, edleafe keep bauzas honest15:14
bauzasNova is taking this list of nodes per service and provides a ComputeNode resource for each15:15
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alex_xu_n0ano: yes, sir15:15
bauzasthe problem is when the virt driver is reporting something non-local, like a cluster15:15
bauzasthen you could have duplicate records for the same resources if 2 or more drivers would report the same list15:16
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bauzasso jaypipes gave his feeling that it's not supported, period.15:16
bauzasand asked me to do my homework15:16
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jaypipesbauzas: lol15:17
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n0anowhat's not supported, a cluster reporting duplicate nodes or reporting a cluster at all?15:17
bauzasjaypipes: technically, I'm not at home now :)15:17
* alex_xu_ is thinking about english question, period means 1 release cycle, or 2...or 3?15:17
bauzasalex_xu_: period means "that's it"15:17
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n0anoalex_xu_, he means it's definitely nt supported15:17
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lxslialex_xu_: with no plans to add support15:18
bauzasn0ano: it's not supported to see more than 1 compute node reporting the same set of resources15:18
alex_xu_oops...  n0ano, lxsli, thanks15:18
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n0anobauzas, your mean 2 compute nodes reporting the same set of resources, right?15:19
bauzasn0ano: indeed15:19
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n0anowhich is fine but is there a way to guarantee this won't happen?15:19
bauzasn0ano: that's my point, I just think this thought needs to be further appreciated with regards to what will be a resource in the next future15:20
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bauzasn0ano: saying that a unique identifier for a compute node is its hypervisor_hostname makes it more understandable IMHO15:20
n0anothen, to summarize, there's no issue now and we need to make sure we don't create this issue in the future.15:21
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alex_xu_about nova-compute ha, I remeber it is discussed at juno summit https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-nova-clustered-hypervisor-support   but don't know what result15:21
alex_xu_jaypipes: can I ask why you didn't want to support that?15:21
bauzasn0ano: well, there is a workaround for Ironic15:22
bauzasn0ano: so yes that's not technically an issue, but that just conceptually sucks15:22
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bauzason one hand, we want to bail out the relationship with services, but on the other hand, we keep this as a tuple element for an unique key15:23
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jaypipesalex_xu_: because a) it's a distraction to our current work and b) it changes the model of how Nova failure zones are structured and how Nova considers the ownership of resources.15:23
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n0anojaypipes, a) is most important to me, especially as this doesn't seem lose any significant capability15:24
bauzasa) is not a problem with an opensource model15:24
n0anobauzas, a) is an issue for development, no matter what the model15:25
alex_xu_jaypipes:  thanks for the answer15:25
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alex_xu_failure zones means what?15:25
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bauzasn0ano: the model supposes a constrained number of resources15:25
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bauzasn0ano: I can't accept we shouldn't at least identify how to fix it because we're considering ourselves as distracted15:26
n0anobauzas, old saying - 9 women can't create a baby in 1 month, unlimited resources doesn't necessarily help15:26
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n0anobauzas, I have no problem looking at the issue and thinking of solutions as long as we don't block current work based on that15:27
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bauzasn0ano: I think I have other things that are more blocked than this one...15:28
bauzasn0ano: like the requestspec obj BP...15:28
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n0anobauzas, which is why I would have qualified jaypipes `period' with `period for now'15:28
bauzasok, then let's move on15:29
jaypipesalex_xu_: failure zones == the acceptable surface of failure. in nova-compute's case, it means that a failure of one nova-compute daemon will affect only the ability to change resources on just the local node the nova-compute worker is running on.15:29
bauzaseverybody is aware of the limitation now, and we consider it as non-blocker15:29
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jaypipesalex_xu_: and since Ironic and the clustered hypervisor managers (HyperV and VMWare) changed the notion of a failure zone from local node to local cluster, that was A Bad Thing.15:30
n0anobauzas, would you quit typing my thoughts faster than me :-)15:30
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alexpilottijaypipes: not hyperv :)15:30
bauzasn0ano: I wish I could15:30
bauzasjaypipes: VMWare ;)15:30
jaypipesalexpilotti: hyperv is not a clustered hypervisor?15:30
bauzasjaypipes: hell no15:31
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alex_xu_jaypipes: thanks again :)15:31
n0anoanyway, let's move on15:31
n0ano#topic statu on cleanup work15:31
*** openstack changes topic to "statu on cleanup work (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:31
bauzasn0ano: so I have a blocker thing on ReqSpec BP15:32
n0anobasically, is there any issues with current patches that we want to talk about15:32
n0anobauzas, go for i15:32
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bauzasn0ano: it was raised during midcycle but I heard no clear outcome15:32
bauzasn0ano: so basically my whole series got -1 because of the Instance obj being use15:33
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bauzasn0ano: that, I can understand15:33
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bauzasn0ano: but I still need to provide an Image object15:33
bauzasand the problem is about the properties field of that object, which is very versatile15:33
bauzasn0ano: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/146913/15:34
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bauzashttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/76234 is being requested to merge instead15:35
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bauzaseverybody agrees on that ?15:35
bauzasmy proposal was to write a first bump of the Image object with the unversioned properties field, and bump it to 1.1 with the above patch15:36
jaypipesI would prefer to get 76234 in before.15:37
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bauzasjaypipes: just saw the patch series, ok, let's wait for it15:37
edleafebauzas: jaypipes: agreed15:37
n0anobauzas, not having looked at 76234, does it negate your patch or do you just need to use it after it lands15:37
bauzasn0ano: I could use it15:38
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n0anolooks like there's activity on it so, if we all in agreement, let's just wait for it to land and then proceed15:38
bauzasn0ano: my only fear is that this patch couldn't be merged before FF15:38
bauzasn0ano: in that case, it would postpone my series up to L15:39
bauzasn0ano: as it's not a priority patch15:39
n0anobauzas, since the scheduler work is priority and will depend upon this patch we can make a plea in the nova meeting to prioritize this patch15:39
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bauzasn0ano: makes sense15:40
bauzasn0ano: ok, let's move on then15:40
n0anosounds good15:40
n0ano#topic opens15:40
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n0anoanyone have anything new for today?15:40
lxslijaypipes: how's that numatopology please?15:40
jaypipeslxsli: running tests locally now after rebasing and fixing conflicts. should be up within half an hour.15:41
lxsli\o/ hooray \o/15:41
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n0anoI'm hearing crickets, I'm about to close this15:42
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n0anoOK, tnx everyone, we'll meet here again next week15:42
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:42
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb  3 15:42:54 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:42
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-03-15.00.html15:42
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-03-15.00.txt15:42
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-03-15.00.log.html15:42
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boris-42msdubov_: amaretskiy meeting17:03
msdubov_boris-42, hi17:03
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olkonamihi all17:05
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boris-42hey hey17:06
boris-42#topic Rally API17:07
boris-42#startmeeting Rally17:07
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb  3 17:07:52 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:07
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:07
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:07
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'rally'17:07
boris-42#topic Rally API17:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Rally API (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:08
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boris-42msdubov_: you are welcome17:08
msdubov_boris-42, Yep17:08
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msdubov_So we have merged the first patch that adds the new API classes https://review.openstack.org/#/c/149597/17:08
msdubov_Those are going to be used instead of pure methods17:09
msdubov_So that the API gets more structures17:09
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msdubov_The old API is now marked as deprecated17:09
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msdubov_We are going to switch the Rally internals to the new API in https://review.openstack.org/15046817:09
msdubov_Finally, we will remove the old API in Rally v.0.1.0 (now we are working on v0.0.2)17:10
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msdubov_boris-42, ^17:12
boris-42msdubov_: great17:12
boris-42msdubov_: so what about moving objects under API?17:12
msdubov_boris-42: I think we should implement the get() and list() methods in API17:13
msdubov_It will look then much more consistent17:13
boris-42msdubov_: yep seems good17:13
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boris-42okay any questions?17:13
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boris-42#topic Murano base17:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Murano base (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:14
boris-42rvasilets_: hey there17:14
boris-42rvasilets_: so what is the status of those patches?17:14
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rvasilets_I was working on it. I have done everything from my side except unit tests. Today I have tolking with Murano team and they disappionted why it's not working17:16
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rvasilets_I have submit patch to gerrit and they are romise to see in logs of murano what is going17:18
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boris-42rvasilets_: lol17:18
rvasilets_Now I get error "Invalid json response...."17:18
boris-42rvasilets_: probably we caught some bug17:18
boris-42rvasilets_: in Murano17:18
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boris-42rvasilets_: so I think we should finsih and merge those patches17:18
rvasilets_That meen that murano is broken17:19
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boris-42rvasilets_: lol17:19
boris-42rvasilets_: maybe lol17:19
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rvasilets_Why? - I don't now17:19
boris-42rvasilets_: it happens with programs17:19
boris-42rvasilets_: usually they are broken, it's hard to make then not broken lol17:19
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rvasilets_Ok, I would write units and submit it17:19
boris-42rvasilets_: yep nice17:19
boris-42rvasilets_: thanks for update17:20
boris-42#topic Stop on SLA failures17:20
*** openstack changes topic to "Stop on SLA failures (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:20
boris-42msdubov_: please one more time=)17:20
msdubov_boris-42, with pleasure!17:20
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msdubov_boris-42 Okay our idea is that it would be continue to be able to stop scenario execution when the SLA for it fail - even before all the iterations have finished17:21
msdubov_to do that, we have implement 2 things:17:21
msdubov_1) ScenarioRunner.abort() method17:21
msdubov_That's in https://review.openstack.org/15167817:21
msdubov_2) Iterative SLA checks - so that they check SLAs after each iteration of benchmark scenarios, and still have linear complexity17:22
msdubov_I'm working on that here: https://review.openstack.org/15245917:22
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msdubov_There also is a new parameter to the "rally task start" command that introduces this "stop on SLA failure" mode: --stop-on-sla-failure17:22
boris-42msdubov_: tooolong17:23
msdubov_boris-42, One problem I see about the whole thing is that it's not quite clear how to implement the iterative "failure_rate" SLA check17:23
msdubov_because the failure rate actually changes from iteration to iteration17:23
msdubov_and we may abort a scenario when it's too early17:23
boris-42msdubov_: we are not interested in whole amount of results17:23
boris-42msdubov_: if current amount of errors is bigger then something stop17:24
boris-42msdubov_: that'sall17:24
msdubov_boris-42, I see, but if the first iteration is an error, then failure rate = 100% and we will stop, but next iterations may be perfectly OK17:24
msdubov_I think we should start those checks after a few iterations17:24
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boris-42msdubov_: It can be parametrized17:25
msdubov_boris-42, in the task file?17:25
msdubov_boris-42, or better in CLI?17:25
boris-42msdubov_: in sla failure rate17:25
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boris-42msdubov_: but it will be dirty17:25
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boris-42msdubov_: I would prefer for now17:26
boris-42msdubov_: just to stop17:26
msdubov_boris-42, Ok!17:26
msdubov_boris-42, Then what is left for me are unit tests and a couple of corrections in the code17:26
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boris-42msdubov_: sure nice17:27
boris-42msdubov_: let's get it in17:27
boris-42any questions?17:27
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boris-42okay let's move17:28
boris-42#topic HMTL reports making them scale17:28
*** openstack changes topic to "HMTL reports making them scale (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:29
boris-42amaretskiy: any news?17:29
amaretskiyI'm currently working on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/146814/17:29
amaretskiythis patch set is set back to WIP17:29
amaretskiyin order to rework it and implement chunks17:30
amaretskiyso I'm going to rework plot.py completely so task processing will be using chunks generator17:30
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amaretskiyand we will have ability to process huge data17:31
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boris-42amaretskiy: nice so any progress on it/17:31
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amaretskiyof course, this is patch set is related to plot part only, so another part is update in objects.task.Task.get_results() - this should return chunks generator17:32
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amaretskiyi think some results (WIP) will be tomorrow17:32
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boris-42amaretskiy: ok17:34
boris-42#topic Rally task validate refactoring17:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Rally task validate refactoring (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:35
boris-42oh there is no Oleg....17:35
boris-42amaretskiy: msdubov_ did you take a look at patches?17:35
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msdubov_msdubov_, Not yet, but I've planned that for the evening17:36
msdubov_boris-42, ^17:36
amaretskiyI reviewed this patch yesterday, now we have new patch set17:36
boris-42amaretskiy: ok17:36
boris-42msdubov_: thanks17:36
boris-42#topic One Plugin base17:36
*** openstack changes topic to "One Plugin base (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:36
boris-42Okay guys I didn't have enough time to continue work on it17:37
boris-42But Olga send on review one patch17:37
boris-42that changes servers providers and deploy engines17:37
boris-42so I think I will update tonight that patch17:37
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boris-42and hopefully we will be able to go forward=)17:37
boris-42and I will be able to rework verfication mechanism17:38
msdubov_boris-42, Nice. I've commented your patch, it misses a couple of files17:38
boris-42msdubov_: thanks17:38
boris-42I saw I will fix17:38
boris-42I was quite ill when I was writting that=)17:38
boris-42so mistakes are possible=)17:38
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boris-42#topic Free disucssion17:39
*** openstack changes topic to "Free disucssion (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:39
boris-42do we have something to discus?17:39
olkonamiboris-42, I have some proposal to switch to plugins base, part 217:39
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olkonamifor deploy engines, serverproviders and scenario classes into get_name method are used cls.__name__17:40
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olkonamiso to avoid put decorator @plugin.plugin with the actual class name for all such classes17:40
olkonamiI propose revrite in get_name method of Plugin class17:40
olkonamireturn getattr(cls, "_plugin_name", None) to return getattr(cls, "_plugin_name", cls.__name__)17:40
boris-42olkonami: so don't touch scenarios17:40
olkonamiso if we set name with decorator, we will use it, otherwise we will use name of class17:40
boris-42olkonami: they are quite differnet from everything else17:40
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boris-42olkonami: I would prefer to have unified and explicit way to set names17:41
olkonaminot scenario methods, scenario class17:41
boris-42olkonami: get_name() will return both17:41
boris-42olkonami: depending on name17:41
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boris-42olkonami: so as i am saying it's quite different from others17:41
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boris-42olkonami: about Engines, ServerProviders it's better to use plugin.plugin(name=) approach cause it's simpler for end users17:42
boris-42and newbies to understand17:42
boris-42cause it's unclear why cls.__name__ should be the name of plugin17:42
olkonamiboris-42, ok17:43
olkonamibut also also I don't like name plugin.plugin for decorator, I think it's a bit misunderstanding17:43
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olkonamiI prefer smth like plugin.set_name17:43
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boris-42olkonami: and what if our plugin.plugin will set new parameters?17:44
boris-42olkonami: not only name?17:44
boris-42olkonami: but version and so on17:44
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olkonamiboris-42, than I prefer smth like plugin.set_params, becouse we have class Plugin and decorator plugin and when I looked at that first, I was confused17:46
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boris-42olkonami: maybe just plugin.set?17:48
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olkonamiboris-42, deal :)17:50
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msdubov_boris-42, I also like this name17:50
boris-42olkonami: ok I think it's not a big deal to rename it17:50
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boris-42olkonami: msdubov_ ok I will rename it17:51
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boris-42it's not hard because we didn't switch yet to it17:51
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boris-42okay any other topics to disucss?17:51
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boris-42okay let's end meeting17:53
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:53
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb  3 17:53:43 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:53
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-03-17.07.html17:53
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-03-17.07.txt17:53
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-03-17.07.log.html17:53
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bknudsondolphm: hi18:01
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henrynashit’s that time again…18:01
dolphmis there a morganfainberg?18:02
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bretonhe was doing stuff with bugs some minutes ago18:03
stevemarmorganfainberg, ping18:03
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stevemarping for meeting: dolphm, ayoung, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods, amakarov, ajayaa, hogepodge, breton, lhcheng, nonameentername, samueldmq, htruta, amolock18:04
stevemaragenda is here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:04
gyeeno daylight saving time changes after groundhog day right? :)18:04
dolphmstevemar: start it18:04
bknudsonwe're all hung over from groundhog day18:04
henrynashit’s my ear that’s really hurting18:05
openstackstevemar: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee'18:05
stevemar#startmeeting keystone-meeting18:05
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb  3 18:05:26 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:05
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:05
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone-meeting)"18:05
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone_meeting'18:05
gyeehenrynash, so you were the one with a top hat :)18:05
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stevemarthere we go18:05
morganfainbergstevemar, thanks18:05
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stevemarhenrynash, go ahead sir18:05
dolphmUhh restart with just 'keystone'18:05
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morganfainbergyeah #endmeeting18:05
dolphmlogs are dependent18:05
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morganfainbergand then restart18:05
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henrynashook, so first one is (hopeflly) an easy one18:06
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:06
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb  3 18:06:05 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:06
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone_meeting/2015/keystone_meeting.2015-02-03-18.05.html18:06
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone_meeting/2015/keystone_meeting.2015-02-03-18.05.txt18:06
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone_meeting/2015/keystone_meeting.2015-02-03-18.05.log.html18:06
stevemar#startmeeting keystone18:06
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openstackMeeting started Tue Feb  3 18:06:14 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:06
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:06
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:06
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:06
morganfainbergthere we go18:06
stevemarmy bad18:06
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henrynash#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151939/18:06
bknudsonwhat's the topic?18:06
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* morganfainberg was off in LP release management zone and missed the alarm for the meeting18:06
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henrynashidea is to allow a cloud provider to disable the ability of clients to store extra attributes with their SQL entities18:06
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bknudsonis somebody asking for it?18:07
stevemar#topic Allow disabling of SQL extra attribute storage18:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Allow disabling of SQL extra attribute storage (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:07
henrynashright now, people could be storing PII data….and the cloud provdier woulldn’t even know it18:07
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henrynashwe already (effectively) allow you to disable it with LDAP (since you have to provide a mapping)….18:07
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henrynash..but for SQL, you can;t turn it off18:08
bknudsonI'd rather the identity backend went away18:08
bknudsonuse federation18:08
henrynashwould be “enabled” by default, for backward compatibilty18:08
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henrynashthis is also true for assignments and resources18:08
marekdbknudson: ++18:08
rodrigodsfederation ftw18:08
henrynashbknudson: don’t disagree18:08
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bknudsonI will disagree!18:09
topolhenrynash what is the advantage. When would you recommend to a stakeholder to turn it off?18:09
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topolI get the PII argument but are there others?18:09
henrynashunless you know your clients are doing this, we would advsie them to turn it off18:09
gyeehenrynash, so we are going to disallow MacDonald to give out toys for kid meat because kids are getting fat?18:09
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dolphmso, you're mostly talking about extra user attributes?18:09
bknudsonoff by default?18:09
henrynashthey could be storeing laubounded data sets18:09
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topolgyee only in your state :-)18:10
henrynash#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151939/18:10
dstanekhenrynash: is this for only identity or for all of the models that use extra?18:10
morganfainbergdstanek, i would like to see this for *all* models not just PII on user18:10
dolphmmorganfainberg: ++18:10
henrynashdstanek: so I think we want to the option for all entities, I’m open if it needs to be a single flag, or one each or identity, assignment etc.18:11
dstaneki don't think keystone should act as a cloud providers makeshift redis18:11
dstanekmorganfainberg: ++18:11
morganfainbergdstanek, exactly18:11
jamielennoxit's always been something that i hated about our SQL backend, it'd be nice to remove the 'extra' with a view to deprecate it18:11
amakarovso anything using extra is to be updated?18:11
bknudsonseems easy enough and it would help deployers be a bit more secure... hopefully it's implemented such that it's easy to maintain.18:11
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henrynashno changes to teh SQL models would occur this these proposal…we’d just disable the read/write of it18:11
jamielennoxalso stick with a single for now and see if anyone wants in more granular18:11
dolphmbknudson: i imagine all the existing code could still run, but if extra != '{}' on create or update then 400?18:12
henrynashwe’d leave it for out-of-band work for cloud provdier if they want to delete existing stored extra data18:12
amakarovwhat profig gives 'extra' now and what do we offer instead?18:12
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bknudsonthis might mess with our JSONSchema validation code.18:12
henrynashdolphm: that was probably my only question…would we silently drop and extra data provdied, or error18:12
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amakarovhenrynash, redelegation uses extra now18:13
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jamielennoxhenrynash: if it's opt in then i think drop is acceptable18:13
dolphmhenrynash: maybe that's a secondary option, but as a client i'd rather be alerted via 40018:13
gyeeif 'extra' is not in the spec, then its a fair game18:13
bknudsonthe config option could be "drop", "error", etc.18:13
henrynashbknudson: interesting….18:13
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henrynashgyee: extra has never been in the spec as far as I know18:14
morganfainbergi *think* extra was in the spec somewhere.18:14
dolphmhenrynash: it's also easy to enable this with lbragstad's jsonschema work -- there's an any_other_attribute thing that's enabled somewhere18:14
topol"i don't think keystone should act as a cloud providers makeshift redis" Great quote by dstanek!18:14
morganfainbergbut it wasn't pervasive18:14
dstanekhenrynash: does this only add a config option or are you thinking that we would actually remove the field using migrations?18:14
gyeemorganfainberg, was or is?18:14
dolphmhenrynash: i don't think extra is in the spec either18:14
henrynashdstanek: just the config option….would not remove the SQL data18:14
dolphmany spec18:14
lbragstadhenrynash: dolphm https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/assignment/schema.py#L3918:14
bknudsonif it's not in the spec then it's just behavior that we have to preserve.18:14
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morganfainbergtopol, https://twitter.com/MdrnStm/status/56267559563377459218:15
dolphmlbragstad: ++18:15
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henrynashbknudson: absolutely…we KNOW peopel do use it in some circumsatnces18:15
dolphmbknudson: ++18:15
gyeelets do this18:15
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dolphmhenrynash: ++18:15
topolmorganfainberg LOL! Im retweeting18:15
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morganfainberghenrynash, metacloud made/makes extensive use of extra values18:15
morganfainberg(cc cburgess ^ not sure if you're still doing that)18:16
henrynashmorganfainberg: which is why default option is no change18:16
cburgessI'm here..18:16
cburgessYeah we still use extra values.18:16
bknudsonwe could have a config option where you can provide extra jsonschema for each resource type.18:16
cburgessWe are still using the self service code you are familiar with.18:16
henrynashlong term, we want people to write out-of-tree extensions that catch notifications to store their own data18:16
stevemarhenrynash, i'm not seeing a lot of net positive in dropping the extra bits18:16
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topolfor a hybrid cloud, if part has extrat atrib8utes enabled and part does not will interoperability be impacted???18:17
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cburgessIts probably not the end of the world for us if it goes away. Means we have to write our own migration for that data when we hit the cliff of its going away in the DB.18:17
morganfainbergtopol, not really18:17
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henrynashstevemar: long term, I don’t think we want keystone to be storing the data…we want peopel to extend keystone with tehir own code to store their own data…this is a first step on that path18:18
morganfainbergextra values are *mostly* just redis with a bad name18:18
gyeetopol, if its not in the spec, then there's no interoperability concern18:18
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bknudsonI also get concerned that we have all these config options that make their cloud work differently and who knows if anybody uses them.18:18
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morganfainberghenrynash, actually i'd go a step further - we don't want people to extend keystone18:18
cburgessThat being said I would prefer not to have to do extra work but we don't always get what we want.18:18
topolmorganfainberg, good. Was hoping that was the case. But had to ask. even if it involved the QOTD18:18
morganfainbergi'd rather see that data be stored externally and referenced when needed18:18
stevemarbknudson, yeah, agree with that18:18
gyeemorganfainberg, like roll your own damn IdP :)18:18
henrynashmorganfainberg: true…we want them to add theit own code that might inteact with keystone (via notifcations) if their data needs to be tied to keystone entiytes18:19
morganfainbergit really isn't keystone's job to store "blob of whatever you shoved in"18:19
stevemardefault and deploy18:19
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bknudsonthe problem is developers wind up coding to the defaults.18:19
cburgessmorganfainberg: You are killing me here.... :P18:19
lbragstadsounds like time for another survey!18:19
morganfainbergcburgess, i am trying to make your life exciting!18:19
bretonhow many people participated in the previous ones?18:19
morganfainbergbreton, exceedingly small numbers18:19
bknudsonit's not like we can stop deployers from disabling extras already... just edit the code.18:19
morganfainbergthe LDAP identity one had the best response.18:20
gyeebknudson, we prefer monkeypatch18:20
henrynashso all this proposal does is allow us to stop doing this, but the default is “current fucntionality”….is there any arguement at least about taking at least that first step18:20
morganfainbergso - i think the right answer here is [unfortunately] not getting rid of extras short of a V4 API.18:20
morganfainbergi would like an option to turn those off.18:20
morganfainbergand/or look at moving the data into not being wedged into the model18:21
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morganfainbergbut we wont ever (again short of API version) be able to rid ourselves of extra since it is an actively used feature18:21
gyeever ver ver v4!18:21
jamielennoxmorganfainberg: v4 api will have the same issues where data would already be stored in extra and you have to choose how to represent it18:21
marekdare there any plans fo v4 actually?18:21
morganfainbergjamielennox, nope. part of the migration would be "extra doesn't exist, use something else"18:21
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morganfainbergmarekd, no18:21
marekdmorganfainberg: ok.18:21
gyeedon't start no shit now18:21
morganfainbergand i will go on record here and say not just no, hell no.18:22
dolphmv5 ftw18:22
henrynashmorganfainberg: I agree….we can’t actually take away extra yet]18:22
jamielennoxmorganfainberg: a new version is not a migration18:22
morganfainbergbut v518:22
morganfainbergjamielennox, yes it can be18:22
lbragstadmicro versioning!18:22
morganfainbergjamielennox, feature X doesn't exist in new version18:22
morganfainbergjamielennox, don't use it.18:22
dolphmlbragstad: v2015.02.0318:22
morganfainbergjamielennox, products do that all the time18:22
jamielennoxmorganfainberg: not if v3 has taught us anything, if you don't provide what they want in v4 people will continue to use v318:22
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bknudsonlet's all just forget that v4 ever happened.18:22
morganfainbergjamielennox, but we're not doing v418:22
morganfainbergwe're off topic18:22
jamielennoxwe don't get to roll out a new server, v3 and v4 are just views onto the same data18:22
henrynashok, let’s decide on this one…and move on!18:23
morganfainberghenrynash, we can't rid ourselves of extras18:23
bknudsonwho's going to review it?18:23
morganfainberghenrynash, sorry18:23
morganfainbergwe can make it better18:23
henrynashall we are proposing here is: allow an option to disable storing it18:23
henrynashnot to remove extra18:23
morganfainbergwe can unwedge it from the models and we can allow people to disable it18:23
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bknudsonif you can find 2 cores to review it then go ahead.18:23
jamielennoxhenrynash: i'm good with it as an option that we can start pushing people towards18:24
cburgessmorganfainberg When you said unwedge what does that mean?18:24
morganfainbergbut as much as we hate it - it can't go away because it is being used. we might want to offer operators a way to define a schema for it18:24
morganfainbergcburgess, right now extra is a json blob on say "user", make it not be an icky json bobl on the user row18:24
henrynashmorganfaiberg: you don’t think we can provide an option to disable yet?18:24
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morganfainberghenrynash, we can. but just expect no one to ever use it18:24
cburgessHow would data migrations work for that?18:25
topoldefinitely cant take away. But can recommend you don't use18:25
dolphmhenrynash: do you have customers that would immediately use the feature?18:25
morganfainbergcburgess, same way migration works today. doesn't change the API jsut how we store for more efficient use of storage18:25
cburgessYou want to just migrate the blob as it to another table and do a reference to it then?18:25
cburgessJust trying to predict what a migration would look like for us.18:25
bknudsonso... one concern was already raised that we actually store real data in extras...18:25
dstanekmorganfainberg: sounds like a Keystone -> redis bridge - is that really what you want to do?18:25
dolphmcburgess: that wouldn't solve henrynash's concern18:25
morganfainbergcburgess, right now - no migration ;)18:25
bknudsone.g., something with trusts and also email, etc.18:26
morganfainbergdstanek, shhhh18:26
bknudsonI don't know what all might be in there18:26
henrynashdolphm: not specific names ones…other than customer who are always asking “can I control whether PII info is stored"18:26
morganfainbergbknudson, we should move all attributes we rely on / claim in the spec - as top level columns etc18:26
cburgessSo during an upgrade the deployers would have to have a script to do the data migration?18:26
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bknudsonI don't want to rely on email.18:26
morganfainbergcburgess, SQL migrate would handle if we did this18:26
cburgessAhh ok sorry was confused.18:27
gyeecburgess, how can we migrate if we don't even know what's in extra?18:27
morganfainbergbknudson, if it isn't part of the spec - it can shove it in extras - it is arbitrary data.18:27
stevemarwe're approaching the half way marker and there are 3 other topics, we should set time aside for those too18:27
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henrynash(and I thought this was an easy one!)18:28
morganfainberghenrynash, i think the option is fine18:28
dolphmmorganfainberg: i'd rather just document a pair of queries - "what extra data is in my db?" and "delete all the extra data in my db" along with the option to prevent keystone from using extra any further18:28
cburgessgyee That was kind of my point. If you go changing extras you have to migrate whats there as a blob because its completely unstructured from a keystone perspective today.18:28
bknudsonwe can add comments to the spec.18:28
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morganfainbergjust expect that no one will in practice use it. meaning there will be an edge case of customer who wants it18:28
morganfainbergbut most wont care18:28
morganfainbergplease move further comments to the spec18:28
bknudsonadding options that nobody can use just makes our job harder.18:29
gyeecburgess, which mean its a mess any way you cut it :)18:29
morganfainbergstevemar, next topic18:29
stevemar#topic Email as a first class attribute18:29
bknudson(like debug=False!)18:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Email as a first class attribute (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:29
morganfainberggyee, cburgess, bknudson, please continue conversation on spec / -keystone channel post meeting18:29
henrynashok, now this one is contentious18:29
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morganfainberghenrynash, short - what is the usecase.18:30
dolphminverse of previous topic: promote PII to first class attribute18:30
bknudsonsome people have multiple email addresses.18:30
dolphmbknudson: most*18:30
morganfainbergdolphm, everyone?18:30
stevemarbknudson, dolphm but only one per domain18:30
morganfainbergeven my parents have more than one email each18:30
dstaneki see the next topic is about a 1st class email, but we may also need to address any other data the Keystone stores in extra18:30
henrynashmorganfainberg: have requests from customer to “filter by email address”…where tehir users names are NOT email18:31
dolphmdstanek: we're on that topic now18:31
bknudsonuse ldap18:31
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dstanekdolphm: i know i typed that up and topol distracted me :-)18:31
morganfainberghenrynash, i reaaaaaly don't want to make the SQL identity store more featureful unless we need to.18:31
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gyeeyou may have multiple email address, but are you allow more than one when you register with a cloud provider?18:31
henrynashand right now we support email (or mention it in specs) a BIT….so we are bit conflicted…we need to push it one way or the other18:32
stevemardstanek, keep your head in the game18:32
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morganfainbergi kindof hate that we store any PII in keystone as part of the spec.18:32
jamielennoxhenrynash: if it's mentioned in the spec it shouldn't be extra from the sense of disabling extra18:32
stevemarhenrynash, is the customer using sql or ldap?18:32
gyeejsavak, does RAX allow multiple emails during registration? HPCS does not18:32
henrynashstevemar: I don’t actually remember…but I think LDAP18:32
amakarov1 email as id per user instance is a common practice...18:33
dolphmgyee: sort of?18:33
henrynashstevemar: and our LDAP moduel DOES support email  address mapping18:33
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jsavakgyee - no we don't. We have a separate service for "contacts" outside of keystone for address, phone, email, etc18:33
morganfainberghenrynash, we might as well make it consistent between backends. but ugh18:33
dolphmjsavak: but there's also sub account or child accounts or whatever18:33
morganfainbergdolphm, subaccount would be a separate account no?18:33
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gyeedolphm, but those are per account right?18:33
henrynashmorganfainberg: and I think some of examples in the API spec show email being returned !18:33
morganfainbergmeaning i email <-> i account18:33
amakarovmorganfainberg, ++18:34
dolphmmorganfainberg: yeah, it's basically separate users in keystone land (someone correct me if i'm wrong)18:34
jsavakdolphm - correct - those are additional identities with less authorization to access to the same cloud-account's tenants.18:34
morganfainberghenrynash, sure make it a 1st class column.18:34
morganfainbergconsistent between abckends and the spec18:34
* morganfainberg cries a little.18:34
morganfainbergi wish email wasn't in the spec ;)18:35
gyeebut wait, are we going to encrypt it?18:35
jamielennoxit's mentioned from the shell when creating users as well18:35
gyeeits PII afterall18:35
morganfainberggyee, not my problem.18:35
dolphmmorganfainberg: i don't actually remember that landing18:35
stevemarbknudson, oh thats great18:35
morganfainberggyee, :P18:35
gyeemorganfainberg, at least provide a hook to encrypt it?18:35
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morganfainbergdolphm, if it's in the spec (API) and supported we need to probably make it 1st order18:35
morganfainbergif it's not in the spec we can make it disappear from examples18:36
henrynashgyee: which is why the spec says it should be a) optional, and b) there should be a config option to disable its storage18:36
* morganfainberg checks18:36
gyeea plugin or some sort?18:36
amakarov+1 to encrypting stored emails18:36
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morganfainbergit's only in examples18:36
morganfainbergwe could make it all disappear18:36
gyeehenrynash, *optional* first class attribute doesn't sound right18:36
bknudsonso is the identity / SQL backend now open to any kind of changes?18:37
henrynashmorganfainberg: which is why I said we are “conflicted a BIT”…since it is not in the spec, but is in the exaples, the client and teh LDAP options18:37
dstanekamakarov: if you encrypt the email you can't filter on it18:37
dolphmgyee: like description?18:37
bknudsonI thought we rejected features for identity in the past...18:37
bknudsone.g., password policy18:37
cburgessIf you encrypt email addresses please make that configurable so that "None" is a valid option.18:37
morganfainbergbknudson, if we called it out as an attribute18:37
morganfainbergbknudson, i was going to say we need to fix it18:37
gyeedolphm, ah you're right18:37
morganfainbergin this case i say we remove it from our examples18:37
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bknudsonmaybe this is a bug and not a feature?18:37
morganfainbergkeystone should not use pii.18:37
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morganfainbergbknudson, a doc bug it looks like now18:38
amakarovdstanek, and if you not you risk to expose it to some smart guy with a spam cluster :)18:38
morganfainbergi thought it was claimed as an attribute18:38
morganfainbergi was wrong18:38
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gyeeman this rabbit hole is getting deeper18:38
morganfainberghenrynash, cc ^18:38
henrynashmorganfainberg: it is a VERY common user attribute for mapping from LDAP to corproate stores18:38
morganfainberghenrynash, we should *not* be mapping email.18:38
morganfainbergand we should remove it from our examples18:38
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morganfainbergbut we can't break people18:38
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morganfainbergbut the right answer is don't put PII in keystone.18:38
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morganfainbergsoryr to flip, my mistake for thinking one thing about the spec vs reality18:39
amakarovdstanek, it still possible to filter by encrypted email: encrypt and filter :)18:39
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morganfainbergamakarov, i don't want to layer that in18:39
morganfainbergamakarov, at all18:39
morganfainbergi'd rather go to the operators and say "sorry we can't support this" and take the flames/yelling18:39
amakarovmorganfainberg, I understand18:39
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morganfainbergthan need to handle PII properly *in* keystone18:39
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gyeeamakarov, its call homomorphic encryption I think18:40
amakarovmorganfainberg, mb as a hook?18:40
morganfainbergif it was part of our spec "aka: user create . email address" as an attribute my stance would be we need it18:40
morganfainbergamakarov, no.18:40
dstanekamakarov: only if you are encrypting wrong and not using a salt or we would have to store all of the salts separately18:40
gyeebasically allow searches on encrypted fields18:40
bknudsonif operators shouldn't store PII in keystone then that should be documented somewhere...18:40
henrynashmorganfaiberg: so I’m actually OK with not stoting in SQL…but it is a very common requirement to map via LDAP….I just don;t think we can say, you can’t do that18:40
morganfainbergbknudson, ++18:40
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morganfainberghenrynash, we should *not* break ldap, but we should document don't store PII in keystone and remove it from all the examples (email)18:40
morganfainberghenrynash, and it should not be made first-order in sql.18:41
henrynashmorganfainberg: and the client?18:41
morganfainberghenrynash, i would also document that using the email map is a bad idea. email == username makes it a different class of data18:41
jamielennoxdoes PII include name?18:41
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gyeejamielennox, depends on who you ask18:42
morganfainbergjamielennox, i think we can fudge on name if needed - it's grey18:42
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morganfainberghenrynash, client should not specifically require/call out email but we can't break compat.18:42
bknudsonthat's why I use a made-up name.18:42
amakarovdstanek, agreed, I cant imagine filter with a salt...18:42
morganfainbergbknudson, i KNEW your real name wasn't brant!18:43
jamielennoxbknudson: i wondered about 'brant'18:43
morganfainberghenrynash, same deal as LDAP18:43
stevemarbknudson, it's been brent this whole time18:43
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morganfainberghenrynash, don't remove it - but it shouldn't be called out as available specifically18:43
morganfainbergor in examples18:43
henrynashmorganfainberg: ok…so only issue is filtering when using LDAP…I’ll think on that one…but otherwise we clean up examples etc.18:44
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morganfainberghenrynash, fix filtering in the filtering fix spec.18:44
morganfainberghenrynash, and we know SQL identity sucks on some filtering18:44
henrynashargeed…ok, I yield teh floor!18:44
morganfainbergstevemar, go go next18:44
stevemar#topic Barbican backend for Keystone Credential API18:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Barbican backend for Keystone Credential API (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:44
gyeeso two issues18:44
stevemargyee, arunkant ^18:45
gyee1) we need to pass the user token to barbican18:45
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bknudsonthis is another credential backend, in addition to what we have already?18:45
morganfainberggyee, yep, known workflow for *things* in OpenStack18:45
gyee2) we need individual user token for migration if we are going to support migration18:45
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bknudsondo we need auth_token in front of keystone then?18:45
morganfainberggyee, no magic migration.18:45
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gyeebknudson, yes, use Barbican18:45
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bknudsonI have no problem with this as long as it's optional... barbican isn't integrated.18:46
gyeebknudson, no, we'll need to change the policy to allow self-management of credentials18:46
gyeeright now only admin can access the credential APIs18:46
jamielennoxgyee: does barbican have it's own credential store18:46
jamielennoxlike raw for ssh keys and whatever18:46
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gyeejamielennox, barbican is a credential store18:46
morganfainberggyee, magic migration from service -> other service is always painful and if anything should be done via a side-band script not the API18:47
bknudsongyee: what if the user doesn't provide a token? (e.g., client cert)18:47
morganfainberggyee, no "magic" migration needing user tokens.18:47
gyeebknudson, no token, no love18:47
jamielennoxgyee: right - i mean that isn't specific to a certain credential type - you can put anything in our credentials18:47
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stevemarjamielennox, which is probably not a good thing for our credentials API18:48
gyeemorganfainberg, sure, we can call that out in the spec18:48
morganfainberggyee, you can make a barbican-manage or keystone-to-barbican that can leverage the SQL models etc. but not worth trying to use the REST API for migration.18:48
morganfainberggyee, bad idea - because once you flip the bit to use the new driver how do you access the old data? or vice-versa18:48
jamielennoxi'm wondering if we can't just turn our credential store off (by config) if barbican is in the deployment18:48
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gyeejamielennox, our credential API is very generic right now18:48
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morganfainbergbknudson we don't need auth_token in front of keystone, technically auth_context does most of the same stuff w/o the "go talk to keystone" bits.18:48
morganfainbergbknudson, and we do store the token in the token_model18:49
dolphmmorganfainberg: ++18:49
bknudsonnice thing about auth_token is now it gives you an auth plugin.18:49
bknudsonmaybe we could get that in keystone's auth_context.18:49
gyeemorganfainberg, we can make keystone credential API "read-only"18:49
gyeeor configurable18:49
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gyeeand users manages their credential using barbican rest API18:50
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morganfainbergbknudson, sure. we should retrofit some of that into auth_context (actually we need to break up auth_token into consumable bits that keystone can put into auth_context)18:50
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jamielennoxbknudson: we do need to come up with ways of sharing between auth_token and auth_context18:50
morganfainberggyee, hm, sounds like we don't need a credential api then!18:50
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morganfainberggyee, no magic migration using rest. i'll -2 that really fast.18:50
jamielennoxmorganfainberg: that was where i was going18:50
stevemarmorganfainberg, it's pretty useless right now18:50
morganfainbergstevemar, agreed18:50
gyeeso no barbican integration then?18:50
bknudsondeprecate it and say use barbican?18:51
stevemarbknudson, ++18:51
jamielennoxbknudson: ++18:51
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Haneefmorganfainberg: but heat uses it in current form18:51
morganfainbergbknudson, uh can we do that?18:51
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stevemari think thats the path we want in the end, not sure how feasible that is, especially since it's an incubator project still18:51
morganfainbergHaneef, we can fix that18:51
jamielennoxHaneef: these things never go away instantaneously (or ever)18:51
morganfainbergstevemar, big tent18:51
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morganfainbergok this is a TC issue... i think18:52
morganfainbergwe're back to deprecate API18:52
morganfainbergfor *service*18:52
morganfainbergerm superseded by *other service*18:52
stevemari think so18:52
morganfainbergthis is harder to do right and there are no real guidelines that are clear18:52
morganfainbergideally we should get heat and other things to use barbican18:52
bknudsonnova is trying to deprecate their apis.18:53
gyeeits easy to *say* deprecating stuff, not so easy to do ;)18:53
bknudsone.g., for glance and neutron18:53
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morganfainbergthen credential api becomes like LDAP assignment18:53
bknudsonso I don't think it's a new thing.18:53
morganfainberglimited use and we can deprecate18:53
morganfainbergbut for now we can't deprecate.18:53
lbragstad7 minutes left18:53
gyeefact is deployer wants secure storage of credentials18:53
morganfainberggyee, fact deployer should use barbican18:53
stevemarmorganfainberg, you have an item to take this up with the tc?18:54
mordreddeployer should just put them in a file owned by root18:54
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* mordred shuts up18:54
jamielennoxgyee: i'd vote no for the barbican backend, and put work into fixing nova heat etc to move away from the keystone credential store18:54
morganfainberggyee we should fix the stuff that *used* credential to use barbican as appropriate.18:54
morganfainberggyee, and get heat moved over to barbican18:54
Haneefjamielennox: +118:54
stevemarmorganfainberg, there we go18:54
bknudsonwe might be asked to provide a barbican backend to make migration easier.18:54
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gyeek, k18:55
stevemar5 minutes left, i'm going to next topic18:55
stevemar#topic Request for PowerKVM platform CI to comment on Keystone patches18:55
*** openstack changes topic to "Request for PowerKVM platform CI to comment on Keystone patches (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:55
stevemarkrtaylor, ping18:55
morganfainbergkrtaylor, sorry for the short time18:55
krtaylorHi all18:55
krtaylorbackground, we (PowerKVM) turned on comments for the Keystone testing that we are doing on our platform18:55
krtaylorwe started commenting on keystone patches without asking first, that was probably rude of us, but it is now turned off18:56
morganfainbergso the real quick question is: what are you testing where keystone voting will benefit from PowerKVM scoring?18:56
lbragstadis there anything you expect keystone to break on powerkvm? We don't have anything virt specific18:56
morganfainbergafaik powerkvm is only nova-related?18:56
morganfainberglbragstad, exactly18:56
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krtaylorit would be commenting only, I don't expect that we would ever vote18:56
morganfainbergagain, what are we solving with the comments?18:57
krtaylorpowerkvm is a platform, not a driver or hypervisor18:57
lbragstadwould we be able to look at the code after a failure?18:57
krtaylorwe test on a different architecture18:57
dolphmi appreciate the desire to test all integrated projects on a specific platform, but i would never appreciate a -1 on a keystone patch from powerkvm as i imagine that would only ever be a transient error18:57
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morganfainbergdolphm, ++18:57
krtaylorwith a different toolchain, different dependencies18:57
gyeedolphm ++18:57
krtaylorwe would not vote18:57
morganfainbergkrtaylor, ok so i think i don't understand powerkvm well enough and what you're building18:58
stevemarif db2 is included as part of the tools, instead of mysql, i could see the benefit; not sure if thats the case18:58
morganfainbergkrtaylor, my only real concern is noise to signal18:58
dolphmso, IF powerkvm votes, a +1 would be maybe useful as a smoketest? krtaylor what would you comment on, otherwise?18:58
krtayloras always, it can be turned on/off with the toggle button at the bottom of the comments18:58
morganfainbergis there *ever* a case where a failure from powerkvm will result in useful data to us? or a success?18:58
krtaylorhere is an example of our commenting18:59
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
lbragstadso if something fails on powerkvm19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb  3 19:00:01 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
morganfainbergkrtaylor, that looks like a wiki change?19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-03-18.06.html19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-03-18.06.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-03-18.06.log.html19:00
stevemargo to -keystone to continue the discussion19:00
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lbragstadto -keystone19:00
morganfainbergkrtaylor, to #openstack-keystone with this so -infra can do their thing19:00
krtaylormorganfainberg, yes, I would think so, if we found some problem with endianness for example19:00
* fungi smells a wumpus^H^H^H^H^H^Hmeeting19:00
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jeblair#startmeeting infra19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb  3 19:01:02 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:01
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jeblair#link completely unverified agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting19:01
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jeblair#link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-01-27-19.06.html19:01
fungiwe can have a completely unverified meeting to go along with it19:01
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jeblair#topic Actions from last meeting19:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
jeblairi'm going to skip zaro's action item and talk about it later...19:02
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jeblairbut project renames!19:02
jeblairwere done19:02
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jeblairdid anyone write an oslo.version patch for governance?19:02
fungiwe attic'd those projects something fierce19:02
fungii did not, but will now19:02
jeblairi saw annegentle wrote one for the api projects19:02
jeblairfungi: cool, thx19:02
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Swift logs)19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Swift logs) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
jeblairi think the partial console download problem is solved, yeah?19:03
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jeblairand we're dogfooding a devstack job now19:04
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jeblairclarkb found and jhesketh fixed a ux problem with the sorting in the index19:04
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clarkbhas the sort change merged yet? I need to review it if now19:04
AJaegerclarkb: https://review.openstack.org/15234619:04
jeblairso next steps are to merge that, wait for image updates, check it out, and then maybe roll out to more jobs?19:04
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/15234619:05
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AJaegerclarkb: not merged19:05
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clarkbjeblair: I think possibly remove old school logging from the dg tempest jobs to rely only on the swift logs19:05
clarkbjeblair: and that can happen while we roll out to other jobs too19:05
jeblairclarkb: ok19:05
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jeblaircool, anythig else for swifty logs?19:06
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jheskethAlso I'd like to thank clarkb for all his hard work finding bugs, fixing things and rolling out new images as we've been working on it for the last 6ish months!19:06
jeblair(it feels like we're nearing the end!)19:06
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jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (puppet module split)19:07
clarkbjhesketh: no problem, you did the hard stuff19:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (puppet module split) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:07
jheskethYep, I think we're very close now. Just switching over and discovering edge cases19:07
jeblairspeaking of the end...19:07
jeblairthis is the last meeting for this topic!19:07
jeblairasselin is on vacation, but says:19:07
jhesketh(and other assets that aren't logs such as tarballs and docs)19:08
jeblair"Sprint DONE, fun & successful! "19:08
pleia2it was really great to use Storyboard for task assignments, I think it went really smoothly19:08
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jeblair"Huge thanks to everyone who helped submit patches, review, and prepare. "19:08
jesusauruspleia2: agreed19:08
jeblairand i agree with him19:08
jeblairand pleia219:08
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* mordred is sad he missed it - but was really impressed seeing all the stuff happen19:08
nibalizerya its huge19:08
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jeblairi wonder if it would be worth sending an email to the list describing our experiences with virtual sprints19:09
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jeblairwe've had 2 so far and i think they've been great19:09
pleia2I can draft something in an etherpad19:09
fungiand lack of need for videoconferencing ;)19:09
mordredwe invited midcycles - maybe we can help invent not-midcycles too19:09
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jeblairthe third-party folks had one too for docs; we could ask them how theirs went19:09
* pleia2 nods19:10
jeblair(also, they probably came up with changes for us to review :)19:10
jeblairpleia2: that would be cool, thanks!19:10
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pleia2yeah, they had a tag for their sprint too19:10
clarkbthey work really well. Probably good to just have everyone agree to focus on a specific task over a couple days19:10
jeblair#action pleia2 draft summary email about virtual sprints19:10
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clarkband have an organized way to go about it19:10
jeblairi really like the #sprint channel19:10
jeblairbeing able to ignore -infra is very helpful19:10
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jeblairi'd love it if we could figure out a way to make the gerritbot configuration for that easier19:11
dstanekjeblair: i'd really like to hear about the virtual sprints so i can contrast it with my mid-cycle experiences19:11
jeblairthat's the only thing i thought was missing19:11
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jheskethAgreed. I think some handover of a sprint between timezones is also quite helpful. I was able to help out a lot more on this one thanks to jeblair bringing me up to speed before logging off for the night19:12
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jeblairdstanek: ++19:12
jeblairjhesketh: good point.  it's probably best to try to plan that out too.19:12
jeblairjhesketh: maybe instead of just signup, we should do signup with hours19:12
fungidstanek: my #1 favorite thing about virtual sprints... no sitting on airplanes19:12
dstanekfungi: ++19:13
fungiand #2, no staying in hotels19:13
pleia2so probably have a "helpful tips" section, which includes having handoffs, clearing your schedule (ignore -infra) and using a gerrit topic for all changes19:13
mordredjeblair: what about "gerritbot give me a sprint channel for X hours" - and it either hands you one or makes a new one19:13
fungigerritbot make me a sandwich^Wsprint19:13
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jeblairmordred: well we also have the #openstack-sprint channel logged, so that would be coordinated too19:14
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jeblairit's just that to put gerritbot in there currently means 2 (possibly substantial) changes to project-config19:14
jeblairthat might just end up being a wishlist item for gerritbot-next-gen19:14
fungii think if gerritbot ever gets a rewrite, yeah19:15
mordredoh - yeah - I was thinking a gerritbotv2 feature19:15
jeblairah k19:15
fungiregister the list of project names associated with a given sprint (maybe as a regex)19:15
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mordredfor an etherpad-like "give me a channel" thing19:15
fungianyway, fodder for a spec19:15
mordredso you get #openstack-sprint-aslekn3419:15
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mordredor something19:15
* mordred gesticulates wildly, then falls over19:16
jeblairmordred: (chanserv registration mumble mumble)19:16
jeblairin summary for this topic; w00t19:16
mordred#agreed w00t19:16
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB)19:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:16
mordredthe changes for rackspace config-drive have gone live19:16
mordredso I can respin the dib elements related to that19:17
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mordredto consume that and do less crazy with xenstore api nova-agent things19:17
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fungii'm still playing with and redesigning my thoughts on getting database configuration moved from image build time to job run time19:17
clarkbI am working on figuring out why we build one devstack-precise/devstack-trusty node then upload each of those twice. Trying to replicate locally using fake providers without much luck so far and have some new logging that I will restart nodepool for after the meeting19:17
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clarkbso we have a few concurrent things going on here.19:18
mordredcool. I also learned some things from notmyname about internals of swiftclient that I think we can use for more efficient uploads for that case19:18
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fungialso trying to think about how database setup fits in with more general convergence between teh devstack and bare image types (and how we should skin package caching/installation)19:18
mordredfungi: I am in favor of said convergence19:18
clarkbfungi: ++19:18
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mordredalso - can haz shade reviews ... the current set are gnarly enough that I don't really want to add the keypair stuff on top until the current set is landed because _Sanity_19:19
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fungithough the database config work is at this point a prerequisite for being able to try running unit tests on debian/jessie (since we'd need to dib that in hpcloud, they don't provide base images for it like rax does)19:19
mordredfungi: ++19:20
mordredso we're still a few weeks away19:20
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fungiand debian/jessie interest in turn because it has a python 3.4 which is new enough to not have the same bugs as ubuntu trusty19:21
jeblairthis is looking really promising though.  i feel like we've wrapped our heads around quite a few things19:21
fungiit's getting usable enough to fan out in parallel bug fixing/feature adding efforts now19:22
fungirather than collectively figuring out how to make it work at all19:22
mordredit's amazing how much freedom the "build base image from scratch " option gives us in problem solving19:22
clarkbyup and other than the duplicate uploads I haven't really seen any issues19:22
clarkbwe missed one item in an element for a while that jogo fixed19:22
clarkbmordred: its so much faster too19:23
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mordredonce it's done, I think we need to take a pass through our elements and our puppet and probably refactor some stuff19:23
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mordredbecause it's a bit rube-goldberg right now - but it's good enough to not touch for the moment19:23
jeblairand i expect fungi's work on image consolidation will help prep us for that19:23
fungiat the moment it's more of a facsimile of our snapshot-based build process19:24
fungitranslated to dib19:24
fungiso lots of opportuities for simplification and decruftifying19:24
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fungiopportunities too19:24
clarkbalso its probably worth noting that if anyone wants me to walk them through building a local image I am happy to do that19:24
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clarkbits super easy at this point and is potentially useful for testing security bugs and the like19:25
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fungithough perhaps an opportuity is where opportunity and tuits meet19:25
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Jobs on trusty)19:25
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Jobs on trusty) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:25
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fungii think we can probably stop covering this one after this week19:25
jeblairwe are knocking them out! :)19:25
dstanekclarkb: i'd like to learn. any chance you could screencast it?19:25
fungiat least until it comes time to eol icehouse, but that's months out19:26
clarkbdstanek: ya I can probably typescript record it19:26
mordreddstanek: that's a great idea19:26
jeblairclarkb: ooh, ooh, or live screencast it!19:26
fungii still have a handful of cleanup patches to rip out our py3k special snowflakeness19:26
jeblairfungi: are they up for review?19:26
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/15171519:26
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jeblair(why, yes!)19:27
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/15221519:27
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/15221719:27
fungii think they need to merge in that order19:27
fungimordred just approved the one which needed to merge before them19:27
fungiso should be safe to lift my -2 on 151715 soon19:28
jesusaurusclarkb: i'd like that typescript as well19:28
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fungi<plug>zuul cross-repo dependencies would have been _very_ useful for this series</plug>19:28
fungithough i'm thrilled that's almost a thing now19:28
jeblair(zuul crd changes are up for review)19:28
fungiyep, been reviewing. can't wait19:29
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fungianyway, that's all i have for precise->trusty migration19:29
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts19:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)"19:29
jeblairit would be great of folks could review the changes linked above19:29
jeblairthe meeting log will call them out easily19:29
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jeblairand next week, i think we are going to have some openings for new priority efforts19:30
jeblairso we can probably nominate some and discuss them then19:30
fungithat'll be great19:30
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* clarkb puts an early vote in for zanata19:30
mrmartinI want to use zanata with groups portal19:31
mrmartinso +119:31
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jeblairyeah, that seems a shoe in :)19:31
pleia2yeah, mrmartin and I talked about it some while at fosdem (hi mrmartin!)19:31
fungiwe could have cross-repo dependencies between zanata and groups changes ;)19:31
jeblairfungi: nicely done19:31
mrmartinhi, yeah, I can help in this zanata story19:31
* mordred hands fungi a lovely goat19:31
fungilovely, lovely19:31
jeblair#topic Upgrading Gerrit (zaro)19:31
*** openstack changes topic to "Upgrading Gerrit (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:31
jeblairzaro: what's new?19:32
zaroso i've tested the WIP plugin.19:32
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zaroit's not looking good for 2.9.x.  I've entered a few issues into the gerrit issue tracker for David O.  to look at.  he's already fixed some.19:32
fungialso zaro wrote up a plan for moving from precise to trusty based on when he migrated review-dev last week19:32
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/review-to-trusty19:33
zarobut it requires changes in gerrit core which is only available on master19:33
fungiwe should think about when we want to do that19:33
zaroohh yes.  review-dev is already on trusty19:33
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zarothat would be the 1st step towards upgrade actually.19:34
mordredzaro: were there any issues with trusty? or was it pretty straightforward?19:34
fungii haven't torn down the old review-dev server yet, but will soon if nobody needs anything from it19:34
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jeblairzaro: that looks like an os upgrade combined with a gerrit upgrade, is that correct?19:34
zaroNo issues.  Just required new libs.19:34
zaroyes, that is correct.19:35
jeblaircool, i think that's probably fine19:35
clarkbfungi: I don't need anything fwiw19:35
zarothese are the new libs i'm refering to : https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151368/19:35
* jeblair looks at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kilo_Release_Schedule19:35
fungii guess we could consider refactoring the work into two steps (move to trusty, upgrade to 2.9) with breathing room between to iron out new bugs we find19:36
jeblairlet's not do it this week.  :)19:36
zarobeen testing gerrit with zuul as well.  looking good so far.19:36
mordredjeblair: NOW. DO IT NOW!!!19:36
zarobeen debugging zuul-dev, it's almost fixed.  zuul-merger seems to be having issues cloning from repo19:36
fungibut yeah, we're getting close to busytime for the release cycle19:36
zaroit's something to do with the ssh host key19:36
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fungizaro: if it's the error message you pasted earlier, it's the client public key needing to get loaded into gerrit19:37
funginot the host key19:37
zarofungi: yah, i think you are correct.  jsut haven't had time to do it.19:37
jeblairthis weekend is probably too short notice.  people we like will yell at us if we do it next weekend.19:38
mordredjeblair: there are people we like?19:38
fungii have travel for several weekends after that so probably won't be able to help during19:38
* fungi double-checks calendar thingy19:39
mordredweekend after next I'm booked - but other than that I'm actually back to the world of being able to help people with things19:39
fungiyeah, i'm around for the next two weekends, then otherwise occupied for the three following19:39
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fungibut if i'm not around, i'm not around. feel free to do it without me19:40
pleia2I'm busy this weekend and the next, then my schedule is quite clear for a while19:40
fungithere's always another gerrit upgrade on the horizon, after all ;)19:41
jeblairokay, let's take this offline for now19:41
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jeblair#topic (yamamoto) Portability question19:41
*** openstack changes topic to "(yamamoto) Portability question (Meeting topic: infra)"19:41
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clarkband maybe consider not weekend but other off hours?19:41
jeblair" I'm not sure if I can attend the meeting, sorry. I added this here as it's suggested that this needs wider audience."19:42
mordredI have two concerns with the portability patches19:42
jeblair" It's easier for me to be able to run "tox" tests on non-linux environments. "19:42
jeblair"On the other hand, the gain of portability to platforms that OpenStack does not support is questionable."19:42
jeblair"My suggestions "19:42
jeblair" Do not refrain from using non-portable features when necessary"19:42
jeblair" Accept best-effort changes to make it portable, unless they have significant drawbacks"19:42
jeblair(end of quote)19:42
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150264/19:42
fungiis this specific to the bash->sh portability changes?19:43
clarkbmy major concern initially was there was no accompanying info with why the changes were more protable, but that appears to have been fixed in newer patchsets19:43
mordredk. that actually addresses one of my concerns - which is that _like_ using bash and dont' think that bourne shell compat leads to nice scripts19:43
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/owner:zhaoxinyu%2540huawei.com+status:open,n,z19:43
clarkbfungi: and find args and so on19:43
clarkbmordred: that and bash is usually bash when you invoke bash. sh on the other hand is an non portable mess :)19:43
mordredmy other being that we don't have non-linux machiens, so I fear these would bitrot almost immediately19:43
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mordredclarkb: ++19:43
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fungier, wrong link there, sorry19:44
mrmartinfreebsd supports bash19:44
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mordredthat said - I don't have a problem with the nature of most of the changes (other than s,/bin/bash,/bin/sh,) on their merits19:44
clarkbso its actually hard to know whether or not the sh you write is properly portable19:44
mrmartinand OSX too19:44
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fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack-infra/project-config+topic:portability,n,z19:44
ianwthis has come up with devstack too, zsh fixes for example19:44
ianwmy thinking is if the change is minimal then whatever makes peoples life easier19:44
fungitweaking devstack to run under zsh is a little more dubious i think19:45
ianwbut if it's worse code, then no.  for example replacing ${!expand-me} with tricks involving execs etc19:45
jesusaurusclarkb: well, proper sh could be enforced with bashate19:45
mordredianw: ++19:45
fungii mean, what platforms are going to have zsh but no bash?19:45
sdaguejesusaurus: bashate doesn't do that19:45
mordredwe could always just rewrite all of our shell in perl ...19:46
fungibash8 --posix19:46
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sdaguefungi: also, we don't really support zsh in devstack, we've let compat patches in for the openrc file so you can source openrc from zsh19:46
jeblairi'm not certain that is not worse ^19:46
jesusaurussdague: not currently, but it is already opinionated, so it would become sh-opinionated19:46
fungisdague: okay, that makes slightly more sense19:46
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sdaguejesusaurus: -2, it's not the purpose of the tool19:47
clarkbso ya I think keep bash but find/mkdtemp etc changes are fine19:47
mordred(the find | xargs is the pattern I usually use so it makes sense to me with slightly less thinking)19:47
clarkbthough I am super biased to gnu tools after living on solaris I don't mind if other people are making the fixes19:47
sdagueyou also only get arrays in bash with bash4, which mac does not have19:48
sdaguewhich at least a few tools use19:48
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AJaegersdague: indeed, the translation jobs do19:48
fungiso, i can sort of see the case that developers hacking on patches for this stuff want to be able to test their proposed changes locally with minimal fuss, and maybe installing bash is effort, but still curious what platforms it's a burden on19:48
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fungi"non-linux environments" is a little unspecific19:49
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fungithere's nothing linux-specific about bash after all19:49
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jeblairwithout regular contributions from folks on non-linux platforms and testing, i don't think we can make any guarantees about this19:50
fungiand "portability" is a slippery slope. i don't want to be reviewing 100 one-line changes to shebang lines and what have you19:50
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jeblairi do agree that portability patches are generally non-harmful, but we have way too many changes already, and i don't want to review them19:50
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AJaegerThese are tests run in the gate - that's where they have to work.19:51
jeblairsince we will not be able to prevent non-portable things from sneaking in, we would probably be continually receiving patches to fix them19:51
AJaegerThe contributor wanted to run locally a tox -e XXX.19:51
AJaegerThat's something that should work in general - but I agree that we should use some sane defaults.19:51
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AJaeger... or requirements.19:52
jeblairso who is interested in supporting this effort by reviewing these changes?19:52
mordredI could see a general rule that things called by tox could want a /bin/sh shebang line19:52
jeblair(and future ones)19:52
mordredsince that's a specific bounded usecase19:52
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jeblairmordred: that just means you can run the script until the next error19:53
ianwmordred: but can it assume a gnu toolchain?19:53
fungii am fine reviewing changes such as "this script uses bashisms but starts with a /bin/sh shebang line"19:53
mordredbut broadly across all the test of our bash- I think it's a no-go19:53
fungii consider that a bug19:53
jeblairfungi: makes sense19:53
fungiassuming "sh" is bash is an obvious portability problem19:53
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AJaegerfungi, agreed19:53
fungideclaring "bash" is not19:53
AJaegermordred: I would support an exception for tox called scripts - but right now I think it's not worth the effort.19:54
AJaegerThis will bitrot soon again.19:54
jeblairso i think it's worth giving the feedback that there is not a lot of interest from core reviewers to maintain compatability in the scripts themselves19:55
clarkbits also worth noting that none of the software this tests is intended to run on OS X for example. We don't use portable python event polling in all places19:55
fungiso it sounds mostly unanimous that without a clear mandate to support running our scripts under constrained environments, we should probably set expectations that we won't be reviewing that sort of improvement19:55
jeblairclarkb: true19:55
clarkband so on, so I think that we may have already asserted you need a linux install19:55
fungiyeah, agreed19:55
jeblairokay, a few more mins for mrmartin19:55
jeblair#topic  Askbot migration (mrmartin)19:55
*** openstack changes topic to "Askbot migration (mrmartin) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:55
mrmartinok, I just like to get a little care regarding this askbot migration19:56
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fungion that note, i should order the replacement https cert for that today. it expires in a few weeks now19:56
mordredfungi: ++19:56
mrmartinso I like to ask somebody to dedicate himself to review the patches, but the larges part is that we need to create the new instance19:56
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jeblairmrmartin: we probably want to land all the patches first19:57
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fungii can iterate on trying to boot the instance once the patches have made it through sufficient review (preferably approval)19:57
jeblaironce that's done, hopefully spinning up the new instance will be easy19:57
mrmartinjeblair: right, it was there since december, and was splited up last week19:57
clarkbmaking this a priority effort is probably a good way to stay on top of it19:57
jeblairmrmartin: there are some jenkins -1 votes on those19:57
mrmartinso after instance creation, we need to backup the existing site and restore in new instance19:58
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mrmartinjeblair: yes, due to a puppet-module dependency19:58
mrmartinneed to approve the puppet-solr module first19:58
mordredsounds like a job for the new depends-on code19:58
fungimrmartin: i can definitely dump/import the data as long as i know where it goes and what should be run to load it19:59
fungimrmartin: so maybe some minimal documentation around that would be helpful if you haven't written such a thing already19:59
mordredit does sound liek this might want to join zanata as a priority effort next week19:59
mrmartinso, as it is a high traffic site, I like to see a silent pilot period before we move the dns zones19:59
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/14004319:59
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/15191219:59
fungimrmartin: that seems reasonable19:59
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/15191019:59
mrmartinfungi: right, I can write a spec for this similar to module split out20:00
pleia2fyi, I'll be mostly out Friday and Monday for some appointments and things (yay for being home)20:00
jeblairi think the reviews for that need to happen bottom-up ^20:00
fungimrmartin: we can put it in dns under an alternative name if you want, or just expect testers to modify /etc/hosts20:00
mrmartinI think hosts file modification is more then enough20:00
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jeblairwe're at time.  thanks everyone!20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb  3 20:00:49 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-03-19.01.html20:00
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-03-19.01.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-03-19.01.log.html20:00
ttxAnyone here for the TC meeting ?20:01
jeblairttx: o/20:01
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ttxrussellb, jgriffith, annegentle, mordred, devananda, jeblair, jaypipes : around ?20:01
jeblairttx: still here20:02
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ttxerr jeblair I saw20:02
ttxI should script this20:02
ttx#startmeeting tc20:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb  3 20:02:32 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:02
ttxOur agenda for today:20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:02
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ttx#topic Release naming process20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Release naming process (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/15060420:03
ttxThis is a clarification/standardization of the release cycle naming process20:03
ttxIIUC the idea here is to use that new process for the M naming campaign.20:03
ttx(We could actually start that campaign soon after the change merges, since we know where that summit will be held already)20:03
mordredand hopefully to reduce the amount of hate people give ttx20:03
ttx(except the proposed change currently says "no sooner than the opening of development of the previous release")20:03
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ttxCurrent revision looks relatively good to me20:04
jeblairthere are some good comments on that, perhaps the most contentious one is whether it's okay to say "fun" in the resolution.20:04
ttxI have two main concerns left...20:04
jeblairoh, sorry "cool"20:04
jeblairnot fun20:04
* mordred disagrees with mikal about cool20:04
ttx1. I'm not sure annotations are the best way to integrate marketing team feedback, as I expect most voters won't read the attached data20:04
ttxA few alternatives have been proposed on the review20:04
mikalI've never been cool, so it saddens me20:04
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ttx2. I'm very concerned that striking down the poll winner on trademark grounds *after* the campaign and the vote will be very unpopular and result in kill-the-messenger20:04
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ttxThat's more difficult to fix, since the concept of an open list is not really compatible with pre-vote trademark checks20:05
mikalttx: I disagree there20:05
mordredyah - I think people have interacted with enough project name trademark issues that it won't be contentious20:05
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mikalttx: if its open (we checked these, they failed)20:05
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mikalttx: then I think that's ok20:05
ttxmikal: maybe because you've never been the messenger20:05
mikalttx: true dat20:05
mordredwe can let the professional messenger people be the messengers ...20:06
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mordredthey probably don't mind being shot as much20:06
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mikalmordred: ummm, yeah, about that20:06
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ttxI mean, the results of the poll will be out there while the checks are run20:06
ttxpeople will start using the winner name20:06
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mikalI really do think we need to filter through the trade mark search before the vote20:06
dhellmannttx: why do the results of the poll have to be published before the trademark check is done?20:06
mikalTo stop a mutiny if the winner is excluded for some reason20:06
jeblairdhellmann: ++20:06
ttxand then someone (mle) will relay the trademark lawyers always-qeustionable opinion20:06
mordreddhellmann: ++20:06
markmcclainI would agree we should pre-filter somehow20:07
fungii suppose there could be a preliminary poll to choos ethe top n candidates, then vet them, then a second poll to select the winner20:07
annegentleI think a prefiltered list is fine, the voting is the "fun" and the setup of the vote and the communication of the vote is the "work"20:07
ttxdhellmann: open voting platforms generally open the results immediately20:07
ttxdhellmann: but maybe you have a voting platform to suggest that wouldn't do that20:07
mordredfungi's idea is also potentially good20:07
markmcclainfungi: ++20:07
jeblairi think avoiding prefiltering is important.  i think it's one of the things that makes this a truly open election20:07
ttxand would still support 16K voters20:07
mordredjeblair: ++20:07
dhellmannttx: no, I was just trying to understand the assumption implicit in your statement20:07
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fungibut also "bad" because it's twice as many polls20:07
mikalYeah, we just have a sentence in the email opening the vote saying: "We also considered the following names, but had trade mark problems: Mikal, Monty, Manchuria, Munchkin"20:07
jeblairand i also think it's a benefit to the foundation to not have to do exceess trademark checks20:08
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zanebfwiw the Fedora process is to have a wiki page that anyone can add suggestions to, and then one of the representative bodies (I forget which) goes through and leaves reasons (trademark problem, doesn't fit theme, &c.) why some aren't appropriate. the rest get voted on20:08
mordredyah - because they'd potentially have to trademark check 50 things20:08
mikalI don't think trade mark checks are very expensive?20:08
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mordredoh! there is another group process we can model on?20:08
zanebthen again we had a Fedora "Beefy Miracle" release, so... yeah20:08
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mikalI've worked places where we did them for every _internal_ project name20:08
fungicontrast with debian, which delegates release naming to the release team (no fun for anyone else i guess)20:08
mordredzaneb: you had me there fora  second...20:08
dhellmannmaybe we shouldn't have 50 options20:08
mordredwhy not?20:09
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mordredwe have a ranking voting system20:09
dhellmannwell, if we're worried about the cost of the checks20:09
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mordredthere's no reason to unnecssarily restrict people's expression20:09
ttxdhellmann: mikal it's expensive if the list ens up being long20:09
mikalttx: do we know how much we pay per check?20:09
dhellmannmordred: I'm not certain it's unnecessary. Don't restrict my right to ask questions. ;-)20:09
mikaljust trying to get an order of magnitude20:09
ttxmikal: no. It's also the time it takes20:09
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mordreddhellmann: :)20:10
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mordreddhellmann: I'm fine with restricting you personally - just not $people generally ;)20:10
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jeblairi mean _i'm_ not worried about the cost; i thought it was a nice benefit of the open list model, whose real benefit is in making the process as fair and open as we can.20:10
ttxTo vet 4 it takes a week. Since that's our trademark lawyer, I expect vetting 50 would take at least 3 weeks20:10
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dhellmannI think if we came up with a list of 50 options and they were *in order* and #50 was the only one without a trademark issue we would probably have noticed that before we started voting, right?20:10
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dhellmannso if we can hide the election results until the checks are done, we would only need to check a few20:11
mordredalso - since we're drawing these from names of public places ...20:11
mordredthe chances of trademark violation is probably lower than for other things?20:11
sdaguemordred: not really, trademarks are per segment20:12
ttxdhellmann: I agree that if we can announce the winner before or at the same time as the poll results, the bad efect is mostly avoided20:12
annegentleyou're already prefiltering for length and character set.20:12
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mordredsdague: good point20:12
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ttxbut you wanted an open process, and now that means some people have early access to the poll results20:12
zanebhonestly, anyone with a web browser and 5 minutes to kill can rule stuff out on trademark grounds20:12
dhellmannso maybe instead of condorcet, we just do a popularity vote with a tool that lets us keep the results private20:12
zanebyou only need a lawyer to rule stuff *in*20:12
ttxzaneb: you should definitely open a practice20:12
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mordredso - at the risk of being this guy ...20:13
jeblairzaneb: is right, and is, incidentally, the process they use at netflix20:13
zanebttx: can we call the M release "Microsoft"? Answer: no. number of lawyers consulted: 020:13
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ttxzaneb: but can you call it Miyasaki ?20:13
dhellmannzaneb: so are you suggesting we pre-filter?20:13
mordredI feel like we're trying to optimize away a problem that has not occurred - namely that if we annoucne that we're going to do trademark checks on the sorted list of winners and will announce the results people will completely ignore that and just go crazy with the top name in the list20:14
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mordredit's entirely possible that all of 10 people will even notice the results list20:14
mordredand of those people they'll be the people who will be involved in getting them vetted20:14
ttxzaneb: I for one don't know how Japanese law protects family names20:14
zanebdhellmann: yes. we can drastically reduce the odds of something being ruled out later by the lawyers20:14
dhellmannzaneb: yeah, I like that. We need some volunteers.20:14
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ttxof course obvious existing stuff can easily be rules out20:14
zanebso that the average number of names we need to do a full shakedown on is in the range 1-220:15
jeblairi mean a lot of us make up names for the releases before they happen.  no poll necessary.20:15
jeblairthat doesn't cause them to become the actual names20:15
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mordredI'm looking forward to the lemming release20:15
mordredjust like I was looking forward to the hood release20:15
mordredand I can't wait for OpenStack Monty20:15
zanebteam lizard20:15
ttxmordred: so you say my concern is irrelevant?20:15
mordredI am not worried about it myself20:15
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jeblairi'm keen on Miyazaki (which is a city in japan)20:15
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mikalI've been lobbying for Muppet20:16
mordredand I'm happy to be the messenger even to take the brunt of the hate mail if that would be helpful20:16
mikalBut I'm not helpful with names20:16
* ttx is tempted to let Monty defend the trademark lawyers call20:16
mordredttx: I think an open process means trusting that the peopel involved will do things and it won't be the end of the world20:16
mikalSo, in other news20:16
jeblairmordred: ++20:16
mikalIt sounds like this thing needs another round of discussion on the review?20:16
Rockygcrowdsource the checks on the initial list, then finalize and vote20:16
mordredmikal: probably so20:16
mikalW're not going to resolve it now20:17
mordredttx: I mean, I get what your'e saying and can see how it can be a valid concern20:17
mikalSo let's argue in gerrit20:17
ttx"You all voted for Miyasaki, by a large margin. But someone nobody knows has said it's a bit risky because it's the name of a guy that has studios in Japan20:17
mordredttx: I just think personally that having a wide open process would be an interesting thing to try20:17
mordredwith not a huge amount of _Actual_ downside to failure20:17
jeblairi will push up a new change with the minor changes suggested so far20:17
dhellmannjeblair: ++20:17
mordredttx: I believe most people are familiar with "the lawyeres said it's a trademark problem"20:17
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mordredor at least they've never heard of quantum, moniker or savana20:18
ttxor RedDwarf20:18
mordredthe list goes on ...20:18
ttxthat didn't prevent them from choosing the name in the first place20:18
mordredof the list of legal issues we're sketchy on around here- we've got real history with dealing with bad trademark :)20:18
ttxso much for "checking on Google"20:18
mordredsure - but nobody revolted when it had to be changed20:19
mordredmuch less people in general20:19
ttxno, I see your point20:19
jeblairttx: it's pretty clear they did not do that20:19
ttxjeblair: btw why did you add "no sooner than when the previous cycle starts" ?20:19
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mikalSo... Moving on, right?20:19
jeblairttx: i think that was to keep some periodicity to the process20:20
* mikal looks hopeful20:20
ttxmikal: ok, ok20:20
jeblairttx: so we don't chose the next 5 names at once20:20
jeblair(knowing M now would be nice, knowing N at this point isn't as necessary)20:20
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mordredand we may have all rage-quit by N20:20
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mikaljeblair: I'd like to know the M name by Vancouver20:21
ttxmikal: we happen to have a relatively light agenda, so I figured we could discuss a bit of this directly20:21
mordredmikal: ++20:21
mikaljeblair: heck, I'd like to know the L name20:21
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ttxmikal: but if you are done with it, I guess we should move oni20:21
mikalttx: well, other people are here too20:21
mordredmikal: bah20:21
ttx#topic Project structure reform20:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Project structure reform (Meeting topic: tc)"20:21
mikalttx: I just feel like we're not going to reach a concensus the way we're going20:21
annegentleyay moving on20:21
ttx* Move from program-based structure to project-based (including new projects requirements) (https://review.openstack.org/145740)20:22
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ttxI think we can make progress here.20:22
ttxWe have dhellmann, jeblair and mordred +1, annegentle and vishy +1ed a previous version20:22
ttxno other TC member chimed in last time I looked20:22
ttxnor commented20:22
ttxDoes that mean with one more vote it's good to go ?20:22
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jeblairi would love it if more of the committe voted on this20:22
ttxme too20:22
mikalSo, want me to do that now?20:23
jeblairi feel like we all ought to have opinions about it and go on record20:23
mikali.e. if we're light for tstuff, let's pause and make people review this20:23
ttxmikal: ideally, you would have done it before, but..20:23
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ttxI'll take it :)20:23
mikalttx: that's clearly not the case for much of the TC20:23
ttxmikal: and of those, at least you are present :)20:23
sdaguejust added my opinion, seems reasonable20:24
markmcclainI was fairly close to adding +1 last time I looked.. need to return and finish re-read20:24
ttxWe can use the next 5-10 minutes to make progress on that20:24
ttxI expect it to be an initial version and to get amended as we go along anyway20:25
ttxmikal: the key part imho is the new projects requirements20:25
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ttxThe rest is more mechanical rip off of incubation and programs20:26
ttxas already discussed in the spec20:26
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ttxthe new projects requirements were vague in the spec though, and this defines them20:26
mordredI Think it's fine as is - but I can see a follow on discussion aroudn refining the oslo line20:26
ttxWe have 7 now, but I'd like to give everyone a last chance to oppose it20:27
ttxmordred: yes I like the "we do X because we want to encourage Y" formula20:27
annegentlettx: I think there's still some room for problematic PTL definition20:27
mikalannegentle: as in booting a failed PTL?20:27
annegentlefor example, let's say translation, logging, and monitoring all want projects. Who would be the electorate for each ptl?20:27
annegentlemikal: more like at what level is ptl?20:28
ttxah. the questiojn of questionable electorate20:28
ttxannegentle: it's already the case though, not a new problem20:28
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ttxRelease Management PTl was elected by "contributors" to the stable branch for example20:28
annegentleyeah renaming program to project didn't address it, but as long as we're renaming, should we discuss the problem?20:29
ttxbut we also gave core reviewers would get a vote20:29
fungibroadening the electorate definition will in some cases require new tools for tracking contribution to a segment of the community20:29
annegentleright fungi for translations for example20:29
ttxannegentle: I would discuss it as a separate change20:29
fungi(for example, a means of tracking translation activity in zanata)20:29
ttxsince it applies to both the old and new20:29
ttxand is likely to trigger a completely separate debate20:29
mikalDitto the oslo thing20:30
mikalI'd like to talk more about it, but I don't think we need to block this for that20:30
ttxbut I completely agree we might want to clarify that20:30
annegentlettx: ok20:30
annegentleyep, agreed20:30
dhellmannI like jeblair's alternate wording for the Oslo question, so maybe he will submit a patch?20:30
fungiso perhaps projects come with definitions of their constituents which defaults to gerrit change owners of patches merged to covered repos, but could be something else as long as there's a clear metric and corresponding tracking mechanism20:30
ttx#info subsequent change should handle the case of a PTL where voters are not directly derived from repo commits20:31
ttxdhellmann: ++20:31
jeblairdhellmann: in that case, he just might :)20:31
* dhellmann crosses his fingers20:31
ttxOK, let's say I'll approve it if it's still at 7 YES and no -1 tomorrow20:31
ttxif a -1 is raised we'll wait for next week20:32
annegentlettx: it's not "just" tracking mechanisms, it's also scope. As in should there be a training PTL and API Docs PTL, both of which would have different repos for electorate.20:32
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ttxannegentle: that maps to teams20:32
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ttxIf training and docs are separate existing teams, I don't see why they wouldn't each have a lead20:33
annegentlettx: there's no API docs team for example20:33
fungithat gets back to the "let's get rid of the prohibition against similar fields of endeavor" reason for big-tenting20:33
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annegentlettx: so it falls to the Docs PTL20:33
ttxannegentle: who handles the API Docs ? The doc team ? Some other team ?20:33
annegentlefungi: right but with continuing to have PTL elections you still have a first in winner of sorts20:34
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annegentlettx: the Docs PTL currently has them in the program20:34
annegentlettx: just figuring out the mechanism for when you'd know to have a 2nd PTL election20:34
ttxbut who handles them ? Some subteam of Docs team ? Or a completely separate team ?20:34
dhellmannsome of the oslo libs are similar -- we have a single cross-lib core team, but also have specialist teams that don't tend to contribute to more than one library20:34
ttxdhellmann: yes, that would be the subteam case20:35
dhellmannwe just sort of evolved that way, but we could theoretically split those groups out into their own teams20:35
ttxannegentle: actually the case of the release management program is very interesting here20:35
ttxbecause it's a pack with stable, release management and vulnerability management20:35
ttxwhich actually are 3 separate teams20:35
annegentleyeah so in all those cases, do we need to codify/write down the guideance for the split20:36
fungiunder this model, if some new team wanted to write all new api docs, they could presumably petition to become a project. if they wanted to take over maintenance of existing api docs then they'd need to coordinate that choice with the existing team controlling those specific repositories20:36
annegentle(I can't spell)20:36
ttxIt wouldn't be completely crazy to consider them 3 teams20:36
annegentleyep it would be fine20:36
ttxannegentle: agree on the need20:36
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dhellmannannegentle: yeah, definitely Write Things Down (TM)20:36
ttxOK, any more remarks on that one ?20:36
ttxlet's move on to the next20:36
ttx* Adds service to indicate a user-readable and understandable name (https://review.openstack.org/150030)20:37
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ttxThat's a followup change to keep the "service name" information somewhere, I think it's pretty straightforward20:37
annegentlemordred brought up interesting points that made me think back to the history20:37
ttxmordred has a good point, but this change is more putting back what was there than coming up with new names, no ?20:37
annegentlettx: do you recall if Image Service was a legal requirement? Or was it caused by the alleviation of confusion I mention ?20:38
mordredI'm TOTALLY fine with not 'fixing' right now20:38
ttxannegentle: don't remember...20:38
mordredit just read strangely20:38
ttxI think whatever was there before was more confusing ?20:38
ttxwas it "Image discovery and delivery service" ?20:38
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annegentlettx: ha maybe?20:38
ttxa bit of a mouthful for docs20:39
annegentlefor sure20:39
ttxso i think it it was contracted20:39
annegentleso should I patch to drop the second "service" ?20:40
ttxI don't really care tbh20:40
annegentleor are these legally vetted names already?20:40
ttxyou are the first consumer of that info20:40
ttxin the docs20:40
ttxI'm fine with what is fine for you20:41
annegentlettx: can you find out the legal status easily? I can ask too20:41
ttxI can ask. Doesn't ring any bell though.20:41
ttxannegentle: can you sned me an email with the question ? I'll pass it around historians20:41
annegentlettx: you got it20:42
ttxOK, moving on, unless someone has another comment on that one20:42
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annegentle#action annegentle to send ttx email asking about existing trademark status of list of service names20:42
ttx#topic Other governance changes20:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)"20:42
ttx* Adding Chuck Short to extra-atcs (https://review.openstack.org/150763)20:42
ttxI'll approve this one when (if) it reaches 7 YES20:42
ttx* Move oslo.version to openstack-attic (https://review.openstack.org/151772)20:43
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dhellmannI abandoned that in favor of https://review.openstack.org/152654 from fungi20:43
ttxThis change has a -1 from mikal20:43
ttxah, recent20:43
dhellmannthat just deletes it, which in retrospect is more accurate20:43
fungidhellmann: oh, yours was earlier--sorry i didn't even see it for some reason. my grep must have been broken, that was it20:43
dhellmannand also has a +1 from mikal20:43
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dhellmannfungi: I just renamed it, and I should have removed it, so no worries20:44
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mikalI just thought it was weird to track the attic repo20:44
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* annegentle has to step out breifly, sorry20:44
mikalfungi's change didn't do that, so won the popularity contest20:44
dhellmannmikal: yeah, I didn't understand your comment until I saw fungi's patch -- brain hiccup20:44
jeblairmikal: ++; fungi's change lgtm20:44
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mikalSee, I do read these things before rubber stamping20:44
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* dhellmann never doubted it20:44
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ttxThe others are repository additions, all proposed by the local PTL and which I'll all approve tomorrow unless someone complains:20:45
ttx* Add oslo.versionedobjects to the Oslo program (https://review.openstack.org/151771)20:45
ttx* Add infra puppet repos (https://review.openstack.org/151100)20:45
ttx* Add shade to infra program (https://review.openstack.org/151102)20:45
ttx* Adds openstackdocstheme to the Documentation Program (https://review.openstack.org/151773)20:45
mikalCan we talk about the puppet one quickly?20:45
mikalhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/151100/ that is20:45
ttxmikal: sure20:45
mordredmikal: no talking. only voting.20:45
mikaljeblair: dude, that's a lot of repos20:45
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mikalOk, conversation done20:45
jeblairmikal: dude.20:46
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* ttx expects some dirty conflicts with the governance change which also touches the program.yaml20:46
mordredmikal: amazingly, that's actually the thing needed to make things _easier_20:46
mordredmikal: also ... dude20:46
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mikalI just want it minuted that jeblair is trying to win the "most repos" competition20:46
ttxhe wins20:46
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dhellmannI move that ttx be allowed to rebase and fix any conflicts for patches that are already approved without us needing to vote again.20:46
mikaldhellmann: that seems sensible to me20:47
mordreddhellmann: ++20:47
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markmcclaindhellmann: ++20:47
ttxI move that future incarnations of this file (if any) should use multiple files to avoid unnecessary conflicts20:47
dhellmannttx: if you want help with that, I'll do the rebasing and you can approve them20:48
ttxdhellmann: noted20:48
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jeblairttx: i'm not opposed, but i fear it won't help20:48
ttxand appreciated20:48
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ttxjeblair: it won't help you and your damn list of 145 repos20:48
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ttxyou wioll be in rebase hell forever20:49
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* dhellmann can't wait to see what the rendered repo list looks like when he restores https://review.openstack.org/12578820:49
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ttxdhellmann: heh20:49
ttx#topic Open discussion20:49
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:49
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ttxWe still have no answer from the Lil'wat tribe and pressure to get a name for L is at an all-time high20:49
ttxEspecially with some projects like Nova planning to "defer to L" a number of blueprints this week20:50
dhellmannI think we may have to count that as a lost opportunity20:50
ttxSo if you give me your approval I'll start the poll (Juno/Kilo-style open-to-everyone SurveyMonkey poll) this week20:50
ttxShort list was vetted/sponsored by TC members last week: Lizard, London, Liberty, Love20:50
ttx(in my personal order of preference :)20:50
ttx(campaign starts)20:50
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ttxAnything else, anyone ?20:50
mikalYes, please do that thing20:50
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dhellmannttx: +1 let's start the poll20:50
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sdagueagree, just run the poll20:51
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markmcclainttx: +1 for running the poll20:52
ttxIn other news, I'll try to look at some projects activity to judge if none of them died while we were looking the other way20:52
jeblairttx: maybe they just finished?20:52
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ttxjeblair: maybe. I received pings from people having trouble to contact certain projects20:53
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ttxmaybe it's just a blip20:53
jeblairttx: sounds like a worthy effort20:54
dhellmannwe had some concern about landing some oslo updates; looking into it, I think it's probably going to work out, but it raised the question of what we would have done if that hadn't been the case20:54
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dhellmannwe may want to consider, for example, a PTL mentoring program for new PTLs20:54
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dhellmannwe may also want to put a policy in place that allows us to add cores to a project to unblock issues -- esp. security problems20:55
ttxMore generally I think it's not totally irrelevant for the future TC to ask some projects to get their shit in order, when such shit is identified20:55
dhellmannbut I don't think we need that right now20:55
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dhellmannttx: yes, that, too20:55
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ttxWhen I talk 1:1 with people they all have one or two projects they consider a lost cause20:55
ttxbut collectively we are not so forthcoming20:55
ttxI think giving advice is part of our role20:55
jdgttx: +120:56
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ttxas well as raising red flags20:56
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ttxsometimes it's just that the PTl is struggling in an ocean of solitude and nobody raised the flag that might give him more resources20:56
ttxor her20:56
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ttxSo we should get better at putting the dead fish on the table20:57
dhellmannsometimes having a 1:1 mentor works better for sussing out those sorts of issues than the cross-project meeting or this meeting would20:57
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markmcclainttx: yeah.. do you think that would be good topic for an inperson TC gathering around the summit?20:57
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dhellmannwe do have some folks in the community for whom this is their first "big leadership" role20:57
ttxdhellmann: right, I don't think the way we operate now lets us provide that good feedback and look reality in the eye20:57
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dhellmannand as we gain more projects, that's going to become more common20:58
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ttxmarkmcclain: it is a good topic for various in-person gatherings we accidentally have20:58
mordredyah - and especially as being a project no longer conveys immediate attention20:58
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mordredso one can be a PTL and working on a project that people have forgotten exists in the new world order20:58
dhellmannalso true20:59
mordredbut I agree with ttx about dead fish and tables20:59
ttxthe fun part being, the "doomed projects list" is different for everyone :)20:59
thingeefwiw, I do reach out to people for advice. In my experience though, people are busy.20:59
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fungii would like to see the project requirements address what happens when the criteria for being a project are not sustained over the long term20:59
ttxthingee: nobody said cinder was dead though. Weird.20:59
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fungii think that would go a long way to addressing the "dead project" concern20:59
thingeettx: regardless, I find people are busy. I'm glad this is being discussed though21:00
dhellmannthingee: that's a given, but I do think it's our responsibility to make time for this sort of thing21:00
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markmcclainttx: yeah accidental conversations are ok, but wonder if something more public and scheduled is in order21:00
thingeedhellmann: +121:00
ttxIn summary, I think the new governance removes the incubation ladder as a feedback mechanism, we need to replace it with something that will even work on projects on top of the ladder21:00
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david-lyleI think there's a large difference when the previous PTL leaves the community as well. The built in mentoring process is gone21:01
ttxa bit like what we did with gap analysis, only smarter21:01
dhellmanndavid-lyle: excellent point21:01
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thingeedavid-lyle: I've been really thankful for jdg helping me.21:01
ttxI hope to remove enough useless release management work in the future to be able to do a better job at PTL mentoring21:01
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ttxok, time is up21:02
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb  3 21:02:13 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-03-20.02.html21:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-03-20.02.txt21:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-03-20.02.log.html21:02
ttxThanks everyone!21:02
mikalI have to duck out for a bit, will return as soon as I can21:02
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ttxcourtesy PTL ping: dhellmann, morganfainberg, notmyname, eglynn, nikhil_k, thingee, asalkeld, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov, mikal: around ?21:02
ttxby the way I launch a new service called courtesy-ping-aaS21:02
ttxso if you want to be added to that list, use that API endpoint21:03
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jeblairthere is no unsubscribe21:03
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ttx#startmeeting crossproject21:03
morganfainbergjeblair, welcome to ping-as-as-service fun facts?21:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb  3 21:03:36 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'crossproject'21:03
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ttxOur agenda for today:21:03
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting21:03
ttx#topic Horizon reviews for project (e.x. Sahara, Trove) panels (SergeyLukjanov)21:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Horizon reviews for project (e.x. Sahara, Trove) panels (SergeyLukjanov) (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:04
ttxSergeyLukjanov: awake ?21:04
SergeyLukjanovttx, yup21:04
ttxSergeyLukjanov: you really shouldn't be, but you are21:04
ttxSo... Some changes in specific panels in Horizon seem to linger a bit21:04
ttxI think this is due to a priority mismatch, with Horizon core focusing on the.. well.. core21:04
ttxAnd because it's difficult for them to review the change functionally21:04
SergeyLukjanovso, the question is very simple - how to manage change requests from different projects that have own panels to horizon21:04
ttxNot sure how to best solve that mismatch...21:05
ttxit won't get any better as we add more projects that may want Horizon panels21:05
SergeyLukjanovyeah, unfortunately no good proposals on improving it21:05
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david-lyleThere are a couple of reasons for the lag generally21:05
SergeyLukjanovbut it's going to be an issues when new functionality couldn't be supported on the dashboard side21:05
david-lylefirst, they aren't targeted to any milestone, so we aren't watching for them21:06
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david-lyletwo, the reason above, harder to verify the nuanced changes of other projects without subject matter experts21:06
david-lyleand as a bonus item21:06
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david-lylewe've grown, a lot21:06
david-lyleas the community continues to grow21:07
asalkeldsounds a bit like tempest reviews21:07
SergeyLukjanovthe first ones seems to be able to be solved, but the second one sounds like a much bigger problem to solve21:07
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ttxthere is the option of having each project be responsible of their panel, but quality would be lower (and it's generally not the same people writing core code and Horizon panel code)21:07
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dhellmannttx: would that be outside of the main horizon tree?21:08
ttxdhellmann: a bit like tuskar-ui21:08
asalkeldcan you get the same functionality out of tree?21:08
dhellmannit seems like that's a reasonable approach, but I don't know if the technical details work out21:08
SergeyLukjanovsahara-dashboard was merged into the horizon during the prev. cycle :)21:08
david-lylehorizon has a fairly mature plugin mechanism21:08
david-lyleso it would be feasible to have UI plugins for services sit in a separate repo and installed onto Horizon nodes21:09
asalkeldalso there is benefit from having ui experts reviewing your code21:09
ttxdhellmann: I think horizon-folk would still have to advise on how to best do one21:09
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david-lyleissues are UX consistency, translation, quality21:09
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SergeyLukjanoveven if we'll have the project specific stuff out of the tree - will be horizon folks able to review changes to help keep some code quality?21:09
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thingeettx: not sure how much has changed with horizon since it has been a while, but if each project's panel is a django app, can't these just live in tree of the projects? Like we plan to do with tempest?21:09
ttxbut maybe they could directly write some (say for Nova and other core-compute stuff), and support the work of others21:09
thingeettx: maybe I'm crazy21:09
SergeyLukjanovdavid-lyle, ++21:09
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ttxdavid-lyle: we have a number of horizontal projects which are moving towards a "handle directly less projects, but provide tools and advice for all" model21:10
annegentleto me it's a similar problem to the docs reviews-- and we manage to keep an eye on quite a few repos so far21:10
annegentleso yes, what ttx said21:11
ttxdavid-lyle: you would decide who you handle directly21:11
david-lyleI worry UX is a different beast21:11
jeblairat least having a "foo-dashboard" repo facilitates overlap between foo and horizon teams21:11
ttxdavid-lyle: and provide advice for all the others rather than write them all21:11
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cburgessI would also point out that there arer panel in horizon today that have to touch multiple projects. The launch instance flow for instances can touch nova, neutron, and cinder. So I'm not sure how you would classify what is in core and what is in a project specific panel.21:11
david-lylettx, honestly most are written externally now and merged into tree21:11
ttxdavid-lyle: so the problem is more.. maintenance ?21:12
jeblaircburgess: yes, i think those are good candidates for a basic layer supported in horizon tree21:12
thingeecburgess: good point21:12
david-lylemany projects are providing the maintenance as well21:12
david-lylecore review load hasn't scaled to support the diversity21:12
SergeyLukjanovttx, maintening and improving21:13
cburgessSo to pick on cinder.. I could see a "volume" panel as being project specific, but the launch instance flow stuff is core. So there is defiantly overlap.21:13
david-lyleadditionally, when we get rather mature code merges, the UX can be inconsistent and harder to maintain21:13
thingeecburgess: what about creating a volume from an image :)21:13
cburgessRight that too.21:13
cburgessIt gets complicated.. quickly.21:13
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david-lylebut by that point it can be too far in the process21:14
thingeeor backup a volume to an object store21:14
ttxdavid-lyle: it's a complex issue. I don't think we'll find the solution today, but I think that's the larger challenge for Horizon today21:14
thingeescratch the backup example21:14
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david-lyleI agree21:14
david-lylethe big-tent scares me in that regard21:14
ttxfind its role and place in the larger tent21:14
david-lyleeither we look like we have 17 UI teams that throw something together, or we figure a better way to scale21:15
ttxdavid-lyle: like I said, other horizontal projects have decided to move more in a tools+mentoring mode, but I see how that may not be applicabel to Horizon21:15
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david-lyleI think the latter is the correct approach, but details are pesky21:15
ttxI think it's a discussion you should have with your team and see how to reorganize to support the future21:16
david-lylealready have started21:16
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ttxnot sure there is much more we can do today21:16
ttxSergeyLukjanov: ?21:17
david-lyleit's a good point and not lost on me, been grappling with it for a while21:17
ttxanything else on that topic ?21:17
SergeyLukjanovdavid-lyle, could we followup with blueprints and issues?21:17
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SergeyLukjanovdavid-lyle, I mean to ensure that they aren't missed on the milestones?21:17
ttxyes, the targeting coordination sounds solvable short-term21:17
david-lylethat would be ideal21:17
ttxok, moving on21:18
ttx#topic openstack-specs discussion21:18
SergeyLukjanovdavid-lyle, okay, I'll take a look on how it could be done and contact you21:18
*** openstack changes topic to "openstack-specs discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:18
SergeyLukjanovttx, david-lyle thx21:18
ttx* Add TRACE definition to log guidelines (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145245/)21:18
david-lylethanks SergeyLukjanov21:18
ttxSergfethx for staying up21:18
ttxSergeyLukjanov: ^21:18
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ttxsdague: around?21:19
sdaguettx: yes21:19
sdagueso this is the first add after the major log guidelines, which is basically to take back the TRACE keyword21:19
sdaguewhich we've been randomly jamming into stack traces21:19
ttxNo opposition so far, so I raise it today to see if we can move on to TC rubberstamping next week21:19
sdagueand use it for trace level logging (i.e. < DEBUG)21:19
ttxor if this needs a few more cycles21:20
dansmithsdague: +10^921:20
ttxmy impression is that this doesn't have enough PTLs +1 yet21:20
fungii was personally surprised the first time i saw a project logging stack traces/tracebacks as "trace" log level21:20
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sdaguefungi: well, it kind of isn't. It's just jammed into the oslo log format string21:21
sdagueslightly back doored21:21
fungibut yeah, not what that's for21:21
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ttxsdague: if you do another revision for any reason, i would add trace definition in the bullet list21:21
sdagueanyway, please express opinions. This will clearly take longer amount of time because we'll need an oslo change21:21
ttxbut not worth losing the curent votes over21:21
dhellmannsdague: did you have a chance to look at the implementation comment I left?21:22
sdaguebut I think it's the right long term direciton21:22
sdaguedhellmann: I have not yet, I will loop back around on it21:22
dhellmannsdague: nothing critical, but we have to be careful about assuming that everything can use oslo.log because of the dependency cycles21:22
ttxI read the current silence on this as consent, but we actually need +1 for consent :)21:22
RockygIt would be really good to get a couple of seasoned operators' opinions from the operators list on this one.  I can try to get some more attention...21:23
sdagueRockyg: this should not impact ops21:23
ttxRockyg: that would be great21:23
sdaguethe expected use of this is at a level way below what ops should set at21:24
* dhellmann hopes operators are not running with that much output21:24
dansmithyeah, not sure this is an operator thing21:24
cburgesssdague: Well several of us find stack traces very useful. As long as we can still get them without having to always run sub-debug level.21:24
RockygMost ops are running at debug21:24
dhellmanncburgess: this isn't about stack traces, though21:24
cburgessHaven't read the spec.21:24
dansmithcburgess: I think the point is, not using TRACE for stack traces at all21:24
cburgessand yes... we run at debug level.21:24
cburgessOK thats cool.21:24
dansmithcburgess: we want TRACE back for actual tracing21:24
jeblairyeah, stack traces should be at >= error21:25
morganfainbergdansmith, ++21:25
cburgessYeah so I agree with that then. Move stack traces to debug and let operators choose debug if they want.21:25
ttxFree TRACE!21:25
sdaguejeblair: agreed21:25
cburgessor error21:25
sdaguecburgess: no, stack traces should be errors, I think that's in the first log spec21:25
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sdaguebecause that should never be an ok thing21:25
cburgessThats fine with me.21:25
jeblaircburgess: yes, certainly that if you are running at debug, you should see stack traces21:25
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dhellmanncburgess: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/openstack-specs/tree/specs/log-guidelines.rst21:26
cburgessOK I'm on the same page.21:26
cburgessI don't see how this is an operator issue then.21:26
sdaguecburgess: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/openstack-specs/tree/specs/log-guidelines.rst#n246 more specifically21:26
cburgessstack traces still happen, debug is debug, and trace will be a new thing. Seems fine to me.21:26
ttxMore on this topic ?21:26
sdaguejust ... go vote on it21:27
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ttx#topic rootwrap overhead - should we stay on this plan (sdague)21:27
*** openstack changes topic to "rootwrap overhead - should we stay on this plan (sdague) (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:28
bknudsonjust a warning that code that's not tested (e.g., if trace isn't enabled) often winds up broken21:28
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ttxFor those who missed the previous episodes, rootwrap was built for privilege separation, not really for performance21:28
ttxSome services make heavy use of rootwrapped system calls, so the low performance impacts them21:28
ttxand apparently as a result, some operators patch it out (although that's the first time I hear of that, I could use some details)21:28
dhellmannare those projects adopting the daemon mode work you did?21:28
ttxThis basically means they are running the rootwrap-using nodes as root, which IMHO is not a great idea21:28
ttxdhellmann: no21:28
ttxThe problem was *already* addressed on oslo.rootwrap side in Juno, with a high-performance daemon mode which is actually even faster than shelling out to sudo.21:29
ttxBut that change was not picked up by Neutron or Nova yet21:29
ttxNeutron has a Kilo spec for it21:29
cburgessI'll fall on the grenade here.21:29
ttxsdague: but you had other suggestions ?21:29
sdaguettx: 2 things21:29
thingeettx: or cinder https://review.openstack.org/#/c/149677/21:29
cburgessSo we did extensive performance testing of nova-network nova-compute in the G cycle with sudo and rootwrap.21:29
mesteryttx: For Neutron, we plan to get rootwrap daemon mode in by Kilo-3.21:29
cburgessIts wasn't even close.21:29
cburgessSo we patched back in the ability to select sudo.21:30
ttxcburgess: not the daemon mode, I suspect21:30
cburgessNope not daemon mode. Wasn't an option yet.21:30
cburgessSo I will freely admit that our current practice is based on old performance data.21:30
ttxcburgess: no question the "normal" mode sucks. It was designed for a couple calls in nova21:30
ttxNeutron calls it a few hundreds times when creating a network21:30
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cburgessThe daemon mode sound interesting and is something I would like to play with. But until nova and neutron support it (the two heaviest users of rootwrap) I don't know that it should be the only option.21:31
ttxSee perf impact at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/81798/21:31
sdagueyeh, nova is going to land a patch to make sudo selectable21:31
jogonova is holding off supporting daemon mode until it lands in neutron21:31
sdaguethe other issue is the rootwrap policies are full of some pretty big holes21:31
* dhellmann hopes mestery doesn't say neutron is waiting for nova21:31
dansmithsdague: it's landed21:32
cburgessRight so the patch to allow sudo again was added (by me) because a recent setuptools change undid the hack in PBR to make rootwrap perfomant. This resulted in gate failures due to timeouts.21:32
mesteryNo, we plan to land that in kilo-321:32
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mesteryThe work slipped from kilo-2, but I have high confidence it will land in kilo-321:32
ttxyou realize "running with sudo" is the same as running as root security-wise ?21:32
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dhellmannmestery: early enough that nova is likely to be able to land it, too?21:32
sdaguenova-compute's policies actually make 0 sense because there are at least half a dozen own the box holes in it21:32
ttxsince you grant the user the ability to run anythign under sudo21:32
mesterydhellmann: I'm not sure about that. The services split caused the author a slight headache I think, but we have a plan now on it.21:33
dhellmannsdague: is that an issue with rootwrap, or with the policy definitions?21:33
cburgessttx: Yup I'm aware.21:33
ttxwith policy definitions21:33
dhellmannsdague: like, do you see it as fundamental?21:33
sdaguedhellmann: it's an issue with the assumption that some of these services can be priv separated21:33
ttxalmost everything uses CommandFilter which sucks21:33
* Rockyg I thought ttx was going to say running with sudo was like running with scissors21:33
cburgessBut as sdague pointed out you  can do that anyways with the current policies. Its a risk we take on and have to be sure we are aware of audit.21:33
ttxcburgess: not for all the nodes though. I agree that the network and compute nodes have policies that basically let you do anything, because nobody takes the time to fix them21:34
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dhellmannsdague: because they need to do so many things as root?21:34
ttxbut an api or a metadata node are pretty secure21:34
sdaguedhellmann: yes21:34
cburgessttx: Agreed and we only patch it back in for nova.21:34
cburgessttx: We don't use neutron yet, but I suspect we would for that as well, though I will need to benchmark neutron and the new daemon mode in kilo.21:35
ttxI wish that instead of patching it out people would spend more time fixing the policies or adopting the daemon mode21:35
dhellmannok, well, yeah, if there are real cases of that we should figure out if we can just run a root-level service with a small application-specific api of some sort21:35
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dansmithcburgess: IIRC, you can't use it with nova yet unless you make nova's rootwrap support support daemon mode21:35
cburgessdansmith: Right21:35
dhellmannsdague: but when I suggested neutron do that instead of building this general purpose thing into rootwrap they said that would be too hard21:35
dhellmannthe surface area may be different for nova's needs21:36
dansmithfixing the policy definitions and supporting daemon mode are one thing,21:36
cburgessSo seems like we should get nova using daemon mode then do a 3 way performance analysis. If daemon mode is as good as it looks remove the sudo option again.21:36
dansmithbut I think that precluding support for sudo in the tree is not a necessary policy21:36
dhellmanndansmith: ++21:36
cburgessdansmith: daemon mode and policy fixes are separate things.21:37
dhellmannon the other hand, then we have to ask which mode we'd test with21:37
cburgessAlso this feel like a nova and maybe neutron issue and not something that has to impact all projects.21:37
dansmithcburgess: the two are required to demonstrate any advantage to using rootwrap, was my point21:37
cburgessdansmith: Agreed21:37
ttxdansmith: it was done at a time when performance was not so much an issue, and we hoped people would just write better filter definitions21:37
dansmithdhellmann: we can test with rootwrap if we want, that's fine.. I don't think there is much risk there for the more relaxed case breaking21:37
dansmithttx: yeah, I understand21:37
ttxthe sad truth is, people don't care taht much about privilege separation21:38
ttxneutron (which can still use sudo) is most often run with it21:38
fungiit's also worth considering the risk profile of letting these services do things locally as root. in situations where they're the only thing running on the machine, it may not actually be buying you much to prevent giving them control over all the other things that system isn't actually doing21:38
morganfainbergttx, people may not care but that is because there hasn't been a reason to care (yet, thankfully)21:38
dansmithwell, and there are people that don't want to solve the problem that way anyway21:38
dansmithwe spend (too much) time getting our SELinux policies super tight21:39
sdaguewell it only helps if you *really* know you've got policy that doesn't let you get out21:39
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ttxdansmith, sdague: so the patch is not patching out, it's just allowing to use sudo back again ?21:39
dansmithfungi: exactly21:39
morganfainbergbut with the isolation fungi just described (many people run that way) it is less important to have the isolation21:39
sdaguettx: correct21:39
dansmithttx: yes21:39
ttxsdague: i'm fine with that21:39
cburgessttx: Yes its an option, uses rootwrap by default.21:39
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ttxmatches what Neutron has21:39
fungiwhat rootwrap is mostly buying is safety from someone coercing a service into doing things it wasn't intended to do, but preventing root access is a poor proxy for that sort of protection21:39
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morganfainbergthis is a nice middleground fix allow sudo where people want to use sudo21:40
dhellmannsdague, ttx, dansmith : should we push that up into the oslo.rootwrap code itself, so applications only have to deal with one api?21:40
sdaguefungi: right, agreed. which is why I wanted to raise it as an issue21:40
ttxrootwrap doesn't enforce being the only option...21:40
dansmithdhellmann: that would be a library option to ... not do anything? :)21:40
morganfainbergttx but nova not supporting anything else does.21:40
ttxso Nova can definitely support both options21:40
morganfainbergttx, exactly21:40
cburgessMy work here is done.21:40
ttxit's nova-side code anyway21:40
dhellmanndansmith: a library option to use a function that calls sudo instead of our wrapper, so nova doesn't have to care at all21:40
sdaguebecause it seems like we're doing a lot of work here, to provide options, but as no one is really auditing the policies effectively, it seems.... not effective21:41
dhellmannsdague: ++21:41
dhellmanndansmith: and also instead of nova and neutron both having their own version of that option, and wrapper code21:41
sdagueit's like belt and suspenders, but no pants21:41
dansmithdhellmann: well, my point is, it seems weird to have the library have a short-circuit option, because if I want to use sudo I could just snip that import line from nova and be good, instead of having to install the library for no reason, right?21:41
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ttxIt's also worth noting that in many cases, the root call is not even necessary21:41
ttxit's just convenient21:41
jogosdague: I once brought this up with one of the 'security' groups in OpenStack and they just shrugged and didn't want to audit21:42
dhellmanndansmith: it makes rootwrap become "run this as root somehow" instead of "use your wrapper to run this"21:42
dansmithI'd really like to be able to say "use sudo" and not even have the library imported as native support in the tree21:42
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fungithings like selinux and apparmor (and even just careful application of extended attributes and cgroups-imposed namespacing) are probably closer to where the real safety net should be, but that's a lot more complicated and varying cross-platform21:42
dhellmanndansmith: why make every application author implement that?21:42
dansmithdhellmann: I suppose, just seems overkill, but meh21:42
morganfainbergjogo, "containers or isolation of concerns mostly mitigates the issue" i mean - to be fair if someone compromised neutron they could still do all neutron could do w/ rootwrap.21:42
ttxsdague: you mentioned capabilities too21:42
morganfainbergwhich isn't a small amount of breaking things.21:42
sdaguefungi: bingo, that seems like where the effort should be spent to me, honestly21:42
* dhellmann takes off his Killing Code Duplication hat21:42
dansmithfungi: yep21:42
ttxsdague: I think it's not completely crazy to grant he neutron user rights over networky stuff21:43
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ttxand shave a few thousands rootwrap calls21:43
sdaguettx: I was told neutron was moving to a model like that at the nova midcycle, maybe mestery can speak up21:43
ttxto me it's a complentary approach21:43
fungiexcept that networky stuff can often be parlayed into full root access to the system anyway21:43
dansmithdhellmann: code dedup is good, but less-friggin-libraries-required wins for me every time :)21:43
bknudsonthere's at least a review in progress to get selinux in triploe - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/108168/21:43
ttxfungi: you stole my bullet :)21:44
mesterysdague: To be honest, we're hoping to get rootwrap in and I'm hoping we can discuss these aspects at the summit with the broader community21:44
dhellmanndansmith: meh. Work on more than one project for a while.21:44
mesteryAs someone said, we shouldn't solve htis one way in neutron and another in nova21:44
fungidefinitely one of those classic security arguments where the perfect can be the enemy of the good, but not sure we've really got candidates for either perfect or good21:44
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mesteryfungi: ++21:44
morganfainbergfungi, +∞21:45
fungithe main thing i see rootwrap doing is letting some deployers feel like they have control over what a service can or can't do, but it's the "false sense of" variety of security21:45
ttxI  would pursue all options. Allow nova to run sudo directly for the less security-conscious. Enable rootwrap daemon mode for those who want a decent tradeoff. Add capabilities to shave a thousand rootwrap calls. Improve the rootwrap filter definitions so that they actually filter21:46
sdaguefungi: yeh, that's a big concern for me21:46
fungiand i have doubts that many deployers/operators are fine-tuning the default supplied rootwrap rules to begin with21:46
sdagueI mean - https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/etc/nova/rootwrap.d/compute.filters#L3921:46
cburgessttx: +121:46
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ttxsdague: I've been removing that one at least once in the past21:47
ttxit just keeps on reappearing21:47
cburgessDear god that line scares me21:47
bknudsonneeds a hacking check21:47
sdaguewell there is also dd, cp in there21:47
morganfainbergcburgess, haha21:47
ttxand chown21:47
cburgessWow I just really started looking at that file.21:48
sdagueyeh, like I said, it's kind of pointless21:48
jeblairthere seems to be a reviewer education problem21:48
cburgessI'm going to go back to my safe pretend world now.21:48
ttxthe nova-compute node is running as root basically21:48
sdaguettx: right21:48
morganfainbergttx, shhhh21:48
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morganfainbergttx, you'll scare someone21:48
dansmithsdague: the qemu-nbd one is probably the worst in there21:48
ttxrootwrap just gives you a framlework to fix that, it's not a work-free bullet21:48
dansmithsdague: export /dev/sda as an nbd device.. game over :)21:48
morganfainbergcburgess, what has been seen cannot be unseen. though yelling lalalalala helps sometimes.21:49
sdagueyeh, there are so many game overs21:49
sdaguewhich is why I'm not sure this approach works21:49
ttxsdague: buggy filters make it just as unsecure as the option of using sudo directly21:49
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morganfainbergttx, might make it worse. because it provides the sense of security falsely21:50
ttxmorganfainberg: true21:50
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ttxbut most people think "running under a non-root user" makes them safe too21:50
ttxThe main issue to me is.. even when we fix them (I think I did it twice over the years) people keep on re-breaking them21:51
mriedemdid i already miss any discussion on bug 967832 ?21:51
ttxdifficult to gate on it21:51
sdagueanyway, it seems like on the compute nodes we should just admit it's basically game over, not sugar coat it at this level. Do it at the selinux/apparmor level21:51
ttxmriedem: no21:51
ttxsdague: or fix the filters21:51
dansmiththere are two valuable things on a comptue node21:52
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dansmiththe images with other people's data, and the mq credentials21:52
dansmithif you get the latter, you can do anything you want to the entire deployment21:52
dansmithboth of those things are readable by nova's user anyway21:52
morganfainbergsdague, i have opiinion on selinux and apparmor, but putting the enforcement at that level seems waaaaay more sane [regardless of which] than rootwrap21:52
dansmithif you're running your company's imap server alongside nova-compute, you're in for more trouble anyway21:53
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fungifrom a vmt perspective, having a handle on this and publicizing that it "does not do the things you think" for securing a deployment would help reduce what could otherwise become needless vulnerability reports21:53
ttxWe have one more topic to cover21:53
morganfainbergdansmith, the mq-creds should be guarded with signed messages..21:53
cburgessSo I shouldn't be running my our payroll processing and credit card processor on the same server and my openstack cloud?21:53
morganfainbergdansmith, but thats another story21:53
dansmithmorganfainberg: should be but they're not21:53
morganfainbergdansmith, lets plan to circle back on that at L summit?21:53
morganfainbergdansmith, i want to see that gap closed.21:53
ttxcburgess: you should run them in containers on the same machine21:54
cburgessmorganfainberg +121:54
morganfainbergdansmith, will bug you on that front a bit later on this cycle?21:54
dansmithmorganfainberg: it's been on the list for a long time, but.. yeah :)21:54
morganfainbergcburgess, you too.21:54
cburgessttx: Yeah I was joking and we are moving to containerizing everything.21:54
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sdaguebecause containers never have exploits... :)21:54
ttxcburgess: because that is safe (joking too)21:54
morganfainbergsdague, ever.21:54
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morganfainbergsdague, EVAR21:54
ttxOK, let's cover the last topic quick21:54
ttx#topic Bug 967832 (mriedem)21:54
*** openstack changes topic to "Bug 967832 (mriedem) (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:55
cburgessttx: I'm terrible at sarcasm. morganfainberg can verify this21:55
ttxand I'm French21:55
ttx#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/96783221:55
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/055801.html21:55
morganfainbergttx, he's worse at it :P21:55
ttxmriedem: you have 5 min :)21:55
mriedemso morganfainberg already commented on this in the ML,21:55
mriedembasically this is a bug across projects since grizzly,21:55
mriedemlooks like there was an approved spec in juno in neutron that didn't land code and wasn't re-proposed for kilo,21:55
morganfainbergi actually like the concept of putting this into middleware that can receive registered "do X on event Y"21:56
mriedemwondering if everyone is in agreement about fixing this thing and then looking for best solutions since it's going to be probably similar impl in the various projects21:56
morganfainbergi would be 100% behind that.21:56
cburgessmriedem: From an operator perspective I can tell you that this bug sucks, badly.21:56
mriedemso nova tells middleware to call nova delete on an instance when a project that instance is running under is gone?21:56
fungiit might make tempest devs a lot happier too21:56
morganfainbergmriedem, yep.21:56
jogomriedem: yeah, callbacks21:57
morganfainbergmriedem or spool, it for a periodic21:57
mtreinishfungi: yes it would, it makes the cleanup story much easier21:57
mriedembut...does nova need the tenant to exist for the delete to happen, or does middlware process the callback before deleting the tenant?21:57
morganfainbergmriedem up to nova to figure it all out the best way to not crater itself21:57
notmynamemriedem: middleware in what project? nova or keystone?21:57
lifelessI think you need a bit of both21:57
morganfainbergnotmyname, i'd put it as a package in keystonemiddleware21:57
mriedemnotmyname: keystone21:57
lifelessyou want events for latency21:57
morganfainbergbut not in auth_token21:57
morganfainbergnotmyname, s/package/module21:57
cburgessI don't think you would need the tenant to exist.21:58
lifelessand you want either a lossless history or a diff style check to deal with servers that were down etc21:58
mriedemdid anyone look at the WIPs from neutron in juno? https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:abandoned+project:openstack/neutron+branch:master+topic:bp/tenant-delete,n,z21:58
cburgessEach project would only cleanup its own local resources.21:58
mriedemmestery: do you remember those? ^21:58
jogocburgess: agreed, making sure tenant exists makes this a lot more complex21:58
cburgessThe problem we have is cross project relationships. Like volumes attached to VMs.21:58
cburgessBut maybe we don't care.21:58
notmynamemiddleware sounds risky since (1) it requires coordination for things that can't be coordinated (eg what happens if an instance fails to delete?) and (2) it will _really_ slow down the delete call to keystone21:58
cburgessMaybe we just take destructive do it anyways actions because its all being nuked.21:58
morganfainbergnotmyname, it's a callback - i assume nova would spool it for a delete job that is periodic21:59
bknudsonare there any other examples where a server needs to keep track of state in another server?21:59
mriedemdoes multi-tenancy muck this up at all21:59
morganfainbergnot a 'do it right now'21:59
morganfainbergmriedem, not really.21:59
mriedemcan i have volumes attached to my instance from another project?21:59
notmynamean alternate solution would be a background keystone scrubber that looks at what's been deleted and sends the related commands to different services (projects)21:59
morganfainbergmriedem, god i hope not21:59
dhellmannnotmyname: ++21:59
mriedemnotmyname: yeah, but how long does that keep casting?21:59
mtreinishmriedem: I don't think so, that sounds like a recipe for disaster21:59
morganfainbergnotmyname, sure - i'd just say whatever would be a listener that takes a callback21:59
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notmynamemorganfainberg: I'm still not clear on what you mean by "callback22:00
morganfainbergnotmyname, so we publish the framework you register a function to do something22:00
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lifelessnotmyname: or the projects could do the checking22:00
notmynameand I'm considering what happens when someone is deleted from keystone and has a PB of data in swift22:00
jogonotmyname: you register a function for the keystone janitor to call upon tenant deletion22:00
lifelessnotmyname: making keystone not have to know whats dependent on it22:00
lifelessnotmyname: which would be better I think22:00
ttxOut of time -- Looks like that discussion can continue on the thread? We can cover it at next week meeting if necessary ?22:00
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morganfainbergttx ++22:01
notmynamelifeless: but keystone does know. that's the whole point of keystone. it knows everything22:01
ttxFeel free to continue to argue on #openstack-dev though22:01
morganfainbergnotmyname, no keystone doesn't know what depends on it.22:01
ttxwe just ned to vacate channel22:01
jogonotmyname: it doesn't know how much data a user has in swift.22:01
ttxNo time for open discussion22:01
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ttxI'll just paste the link to the 1:1 syncs we had today, focused on the kilo-2 tag22:01
ttx#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2015/ptl_sync.2015-02-03-09.06.html22:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb  3 22:02:03 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-03-21.03.html22:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-03-21.03.txt22:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-03-21.03.log.html22:02
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ttxThx everyone, good one22:02
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