Tuesday, 2015-02-10

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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb 10 08:00:54 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:00
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anteayasay hello if you are here for the third party meeting08:01
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jyuso1anteaya: hello08:23
anteayajyuso1: hello08:23
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anteayanice to see you08:24
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jyuso1anteaya: nice to see you too:)08:24
anteaya:)08:24
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anteayahow are things going for you?08:24
jyuso1anteaya: we are testing our sriov CI these days,so missed some 3rd party meeting:)08:24
anteayaunderstandable08:25
jyuso1anteaya: good thanks:)08:25
anteayahow is it coming along?08:25
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jyuso1anteaya: test case and 3rd part account is ready.we are testing it offline.08:27
anteayagood08:27
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jyuso1anteaya: may i ask a question about 3rd party account?08:28
anteayaplease do08:28
jyuso1anteaya: we have 3 kinds of CI,like Intel networking CI,Intel PCI CI,Intel SRIOV CI08:28
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jyuso1anteaya: But I don't want to apply 3 email address to those 3 CI.Could I use one email address corresponding to all of those three CI account?08:30
anteayaah no you can't08:30
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anteayasince in gerrit the email part of the account must be unique08:30
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anteayabut you can set up two of them as forwarded to the first one, can you not?08:31
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jyuso1anteaya: Oh.sounds like i should ask IT colleague in our corp:)08:31
jyuso1anteaya: don't know that yet08:32
anteayajyuso1: that would be a good idea08:32
anteayayes08:32
anteayagerrit needs a unique email address for every account08:32
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jyuso1anteaya: Yes,it is just a little inconvenient for those who have more CI:)08:34
jyuso1anteaya: thanks08:34
anteayayes, I can see that08:34
anteayathanks for asking08:34
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jyuso1anteaya: thanks for the meeting.I could always found something useful here,really:)08:35
anteayaglad to hear that08:35
anteayathank you08:35
jyuso1:)08:36
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anteayajyuso1: so right now folks are trying to find out what is happening on the intel side as far as nfv testing is going08:36
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anteayafrom what I understand, intel divided the work internally, giving your team pci and sr-iov08:37
jyuso1anteaya: yes,that's true.08:37
anteayawith some folks from ireland working on the nfv portions08:37
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anteayathe last email I had, I had asked to have someone from ireland available on irc08:37
anteayalike you are08:37
jyuso1anteaya: yes,we have communicate sometimes08:37
anteaya:)08:37
anteayaany idea if that is happening?08:37
jyuso1anteaya: :)08:37
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anteayathe fact that you are here on irc all the time really makes a difference08:38
jyuso1anteaya: OK,I just have one of those guy's email address08:38
anteayagreat08:38
jyuso1anteaya: so I don't know about their irc id ,sorry08:39
anteayacan you email me and that other person and introduce me?08:39
anteayaperhaps that person can let me know who will be on irc08:39
anteayaI think you still have my email address08:40
jyuso1anteaya: OK,maybe I could help to write an email to that guy.You just want to know the nfv ci process may be I could say that way?08:41
anteayathat would be great, thank you08:41
anteayaand cc adrian too08:41
anteayaso he knows08:41
jyuso1anteaya: OK,I think I could help08:42
jyuso1anteaya: np08:42
anteayathank you so much08:42
jyuso1anteaya: you are welcome08:42
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anteaya:)08:45
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jyuso1anteaya: I've asked heyongli for help.he said he could help to send that email:)08:48
anteayajyuso1: thank you08:48
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jyuso1anteaya: I should back to work now,Thanks for the meeting:)08:52
anteayajyuso1: thanks for your attendance08:52
anteayaI can end it here08:52
anteaya#endmeeting08:52
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"08:52
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb 10 08:52:32 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:52
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-10-08.00.html08:52
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-10-08.00.txt08:52
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-10-08.00.log.html08:52
* anteaya waits 8 minutes for the next one08:52
heyonglianteaya, i will send mail to Hoban, Adrian to check the NFV states.08:53
anteayaheyongli: thank you08:54
anteayaheyongli: I appreciate your help08:54
heyongliwelcome,  anteaya08:54
anteayaI mostly need to know who to ask when I have a question as I understand this isn't your assigned work08:54
anteaya:)08:54
heyonglisure,08:54
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anteaya#startmeeting nova-net-to-neutron-migration09:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb 10 09:00:07 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.09:00
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openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.09:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova_net_to_neutron_migration'09:00
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anteayahello hello09:00
jlibosvahello09:00
obondarevhi09:00
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spandhehello!09:00
anteayayay spandhe is here!09:00
belmoreirahi09:00
anteayagreat09:00
spandhe:)09:00
anteayajlibosva obondarev belmoreira nice to see you09:00
anteayagus: are you about?09:00
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anteayalet's get going09:01
anteaya#topic the state of the Neutron spec (obondarev)09:01
*** openstack changes topic to "the state of the Neutron spec (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:01
obondarevso the first part of the spec was merged which is great09:01
anteayaobondarev: you're up09:01
anteayayay team!09:01
obondarevand means we're moving forward09:01
spandhegreat!09:02
anteayanice work everyone09:02
obondarevthe second part lacks reviews a bit09:02
obondarevbut also lacks some details of the process09:02
gus(hi)09:02
obondarevwe can wait for comments to iterate further09:02
anteayanice summary09:02
obondarevor just start adding details09:02
obondarevanteaya: thanks09:02
anteayaso yes, congratulations to everyone for their hard work in getting the first patch to the spec merged09:03
anteayawell done!09:03
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anteayawe can address next steps for the merged portion in the documentation topic09:03
gusI think a lot of people weren't looking at the second until the first was submitted, so I think (hope) a bunch of those will jump over to the second patch now.09:03
anteayanow for the second part09:03
anteayagus: that hopefully is the case09:04
obondarevI hope so too09:04
anteayaat the nova mid-cycle some folks stated that they need to see proof of concept code to review the second part of the spec09:04
anteayaso my feeling right now is that the two patches we have up, obondarev's and jlibosva's, will be reviewed first before the second part of the spec is reviewed09:05
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anteayadoes that make sense to folks?09:05
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obondarevanteaya: it does09:05
anteayagreat09:06
* jlibosva nods09:06
gusyep.09:06
obondarevalso I think one major thing that is not well detailed in the spec is about working in mixed nova-net/neutron env09:06
anteayaso shall we move topics to implementation and see where we are on those patches?09:06
anteayaobondarev: ah okay go ahead with your point09:06
obondarevwhere internal and external connectivity should be kept for both types of hypervisors09:06
obondarevcurrently we have "Bring up neutron network (l3) nodes" as the final step09:06
obondarevbut I'm not sure how to provide external connectivity for "has_transitioned" hypervisors then09:07
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obondarevwhile we're in the middle of the big migration loop09:07
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obondarevI'll add comments on this to the review09:07
obondarevand I can start to look into this09:07
anteayadoes anyone else have any feedback on obondarev's point?09:08
gusThe routers (or gateways I think nova calls them) should have the same mac+ip address, and the wire format is compatible (because we chose it that way).09:08
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gusso the idea was the nova gateways would stay up until all the hosts are transitioned across, and then in that latter (poorly defined atm) step we would switch them out for neutron routers.09:08
gusI don't have good suggestions for how we actually do that switch :/09:09
obondarevgus: I see09:09
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obondarevthis needs some experiments/prototyping as well I guess09:09
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gusyes, definitely.09:10
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gusobondarev: does that seem reasonable?09:10
obondarevgus: yes, so let's get initial steps done then09:11
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gusyep.09:11
anteayaobondarev: thanks for raising the point09:11
anteayaobondarev: you are able to capture these thoughts in a comment on the patch?09:11
obondarevanteaya: I will09:12
anteayaobondarev: thank you09:12
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anteayaany objection to moving to a discussion of implementation?09:12
anteaya#topic the state of implementation (obondarev)09:12
*** openstack changes topic to "the state of implementation (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:12
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anteayahere we are09:12
anteayaobondarev: to you09:12
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obondarevsure09:12
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obondarevjlibosva: can you please update on db migration?09:13
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anteayawe seem to lose him09:13
jlibosvawell, I had some unplanned events last week so I didn't do much work on it (my apologies)09:13
anteayaah here we are09:13
anteayajlibosva: what are your current thoughts?09:14
jlibosvaI did some work yesterday mostly about creating networks out of floating ips pools09:14
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obondarevjlibosva: do you mean external networks?09:14
jlibosvayes09:14
obondarevjlibosva: ok, cool09:14
anteayajlibosva: is that work reflected in the current patch?09:15
jlibosvaI'm now trying to find out where to get gateway for external subnets09:15
jlibosvaanteaya: no, it's only local. not sent to review yet09:15
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anteayajlibosva: can we try to get in the habit of submitting all the work09:15
anteayaeven if it doesn't work yet09:15
anteayait helps folks see what you mean when you bring it up in discussion09:16
jlibosvaanteaya: yes, sorry09:16
anteayajlibosva: it is okay, it has to become a habit, which takes time09:16
anteayaand thank you09:16
anteayayou were saying09:16
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anteayayou are working on getting gateways for external subnets09:17
obondarevjlibosva: you can raise you concerns on this in the ML09:17
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jlibosvaobondarev: good idea, I will try to look more on the code and then I'll send an email09:17
anteayathe gateways would come from where?09:18
anteayanova?09:18
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jlibosvawell, the only source of information I have is nova database. And I believe the gateway of exeternal network should be the gateway on the physical network09:19
anteayahmmm, so that would be different for each operator potentially?09:19
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anteayaor you would have to access the nova database?09:20
jlibosvaI think so. We could provide it as a parameter. But now it's getting more and more parameters so maybe some config file would make better sense09:20
jlibosvathat was for previous answer09:20
anteayaI do like config files09:20
jlibosvaduring migration nova db is already accessed09:20
anteayaif you went to the mailing list, who would you be hoping would respond?09:21
belmoreirajlibosva: in the case of using a "flat network" configuration with linux bridge, the gateway configuration in nova-network is not needed since it will use the compute node configuration.09:21
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jlibosvabelmoreira: right, but the migration should cover all network managers09:21
anteayaI thought our use case was the flat network09:22
anteayaam I wrong?09:22
jlibosvareally? I'm doing all of them09:22
anteayaor the use case we are addressing our work to09:22
anteayathen this is a good question09:23
anteayagus obondarev can you share your thoughts?09:23
obondarevanteaya: I think we should support all of them09:23
jlibosvain the meantime - I sent my current work to gerrit09:23
anteayagus: ?09:23
gusthe hope was anything that has a (direct) equivalent in neutron.  Obviously if there's a simpler combination we should do that first.09:23
anteayajlibosva: thank you09:23
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anteayais the flat network the simplier choice?09:23
jlibosvayes09:24
anteayathen my vote is for the flat network first09:24
* gus agrees.09:24
obondarev"This process supports any nova-network and neutron deployment options which are wire-compatible"09:24
jlibosvaMy opinion is that from db perspective the change between flat and vlan wouldn't be large. I might be wrong though09:24
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obondarevthis is from the merged part of the spec09:24
gusAt this point it's important to get an end-to-end proof-of-concept working, even if we have to leave a few TODOs around.09:25
obondarevgus: agree09:25
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belmoreiragus: +109:25
anteayalet's get somethign we can test09:25
jlibosvaok09:26
anteayaand yes, thanks obondarev for finding that from the spec, we have to acknowledge we have a todo here to expand once we get something working09:26
anteayafair enough?09:26
jlibosvabelmoreira: so when using flat network, I assume every fip pool will be tied to a bridge and thus I don't need to care about gateways09:26
jlibosvais that correct?09:26
obondarevanteaya: agree09:26
belmoreirajlibosva: I believe so09:27
jlibosvathanks09:27
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anteayajlibosva: do you have what you need to continue working for now?09:27
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jlibosvaanteaya: I'm short on time :) Otherwise, yes09:28
anteayajlibosva: understood and thank you09:28
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anteayaobondarev: do you want to take your turn now?09:28
obondarevmoving on then09:28
anteayagreat thanks09:28
obondarevanteaya: yep09:28
obondarevspeaking of nova-net proxy09:28
obondarevI've put a couple on new revisions on gerrit09:29
obondarev# link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/09:29
obondarevgot some general concerns for dansmith09:29
anteayaI think you need to remove the whitespace for #link to work09:29
obondarevanteaya: yep, sorry09:29
anteayanp, try again?09:30
obondarev#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/09:30
anteayathanks09:30
obondarevso I'd really like to sort them before moving forward09:30
obondarevI mean Dan's comments09:30
anteayalet's take a look at the latest patchset shall we?09:30
obondarevso I replied to comments and waiting for dansmith to review09:30
anteayaobondarev: I feel the same09:30
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anteayalet's see if we can discuss the comments09:31
anteayaand understand them a bit better09:31
obondarevsure09:31
anteayato the patch!09:31
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obondarevso I guess the main concern is what is nova-network proxy and whether we need it at all09:32
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anteayawell if that is what the concerns boil down to09:33
anteayathat is a concern that needs to be addressed09:33
anteayaany input from others09:33
anteayado you feel obondarev's assessment of the comments is accurate?09:33
gusright, I don't think Dan understands the need for a step between "store state in neutron DB" and "all compute nodes have migrated"09:34
gus.. so we should perhaps explain that in the review.09:34
anteayathat might be a good beginning09:35
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obondarevor move the discussion to the spec maybe?09:35
anteayalet's keep the discussion in the proxy patch for now09:35
anteayait helps retain the history of the conversation09:35
anteayathe spec can have a comment that references the proxy patch09:35
gusyeah, replying on the review keeps the response easily correlated.09:36
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obondarevok09:36
anteayaactually the spec should have a comment that references both the proxy patch and the db migration patch09:36
gusobondarev: Do you want me to respond to Dan, or shall we see what he comes back with after you existing response?09:36
anteayaI would like to see some movement here09:36
anteayaother than just wait09:36
obondarevgus: let's wait I think09:36
gus;)09:36
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anteayawe have a status update at the cross project meeting today09:37
anteayamany folks will be reading these patches for the first time as a result09:37
anteayalet's have the latest information up for them please?09:37
anteayaso if we think there is a hole in an explaination09:37
anteayacan we fill it?09:37
belmoreirabut the proxy is a mandatory step in the migration? If a deployment just migrate the DB and is fine with a small downtime my understanding is that it can avoid the proxy.09:37
anteayaotherwise I will just need to keep explaining it09:38
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obondarevanteaya: well the rationale is in the spec09:38
gusanteaya: ack.  I'll add a short comment on the change so we're sure that aspect isn't left hanging.09:38
gusbelmoreira: yes, exactly.09:38
anteayaobondarev: true, but folks can trip over any percieved gap09:39
anteayagus: thank you09:39
obondarevanteaya: undestood09:39
anteayaobondarev: thanks :)09:39
anteayaany more comments here?09:40
anteayalet's move on09:40
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anteaya#topic documentation (obondarev)09:40
*** openstack changes topic to "documentation (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:40
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anteayaobondarev: :)09:41
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obondarevyep09:41
obondarevno updates from me on this one I'm afraid09:41
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anteayaokay09:41
anteayawe need to make some contact with documentation folks09:41
anteayaedgar said he would do the work, but he can't attend the meetings09:41
anteayawhich is tough as we lose that communication09:42
anteayaI'll keep working on finding someone who can attend meetings who can work with edgar on documentation09:42
obondarevlast update from him was that he can start work on docs based on the specs09:42
anteayaokay that is great09:43
anteayado we know where to look yet to track his progress?09:43
obondarevhe said he'll send the link once he has patch09:43
anteayaedgar if you are reading the logs, can you tell me where to look to see what you are doing?09:43
anteayaokay great, I'm looking forward to that09:43
anteayawe are working towards having something up for the operators mid-cycle09:44
anteaya#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Operations/Meetups09:44
anteayait takes place in the second week of march09:44
anteayawhich doesn't leave much time09:44
anteayaokay so let's move on?09:44
anteayasince we can't do much more without someone from docs to help us here09:45
anteaya#topic testing (belmoreira)09:45
*** openstack changes topic to "testing (belmoreira) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:45
anteayabelmoreira: how far away are we from having something to test?09:45
belmoreiraI don't have any update.09:45
anteayabelmoreira: you said you think we can test the db migration in isolation of the proxy code?09:45
anteayabelmoreira: fair enough09:45
belmoreirawe should wait for the proxy and db migration developments09:46
anteayabut if we can test the db migration code in isolation09:46
anteayacan we consider that as somethign testable?09:46
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jlibosvaI haven't tried to run Neutron after db migration, just observed the db. But I believe networks, subnets, ports and security groups should be migrated successfully09:47
anteayacan we consider that as something to try?09:48
belmoreirawe will test the DB migration tool against our DB. However before we need to perform changes in order to work with our setup. So I will wait for a more stable version09:48
jlibosvanot with current patchset as I sent what I had without trying to run it09:48
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anteayaokay great09:50
anteayaso what do we need for it to be considered more stable?09:50
jlibosvaI'll run the script and once it passes my "small environemnt" migration, I'll send new PS09:50
belmoreiraanteaya: I mean with more review iterations09:51
anteayabelmoreira: if it passes jlibosva's small environment, will you consider it sufficient to test?09:51
anteayabelmoreira: I'm trying to find out what you need to see, so I can help you get it09:51
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belmoreiraanteaya: I know. Because we need to work on top of it that's why I'm waiting for more iterations. Fair?09:53
anteayawell if I knew what you were looking for from more iterations taht would help09:53
anteayasince number of patchsets doesn't really convey stability to me09:54
anteayaI understand you want something better, I just don't know what better looks like to your eyes09:54
anteayaso let's see if we can get jlibosva's patchset into a shape that belmoreira feels comfortable testing09:55
anteayais that a reasonable goal?09:55
anteayajlibosva: can you work with belmoreira to make that happen?09:55
jlibosvaI still don't understand, when to say "now it's in the shape for testing"09:56
belmoreiraanteaya: I will look into the last patchset09:56
gusbelmoreira: fwiw, the tool only needs read-only access to your current tables (or could work off a snapshot)09:56
anteayabelmoreira: thank you, that would be a big help09:56
anteayajlibosva: me either09:56
jlibosvabelmoreira: you can also do db dump, restore db somewhere in testing environment and test db migration09:56
anteayabelmoreira: or is there more work for you to test this than we currently understand?09:57
gusbut it seems premature to test it out on a large dataset before jlibosva has declared it "plausible"09:57
anteayagus: yes to be sure09:57
jlibosvaI can confirm now that current PS crashes09:57
belmoreiramy point is that the test is very interesting for us... for this exercise maybe less because our DB maybe will not fit in what is expected by the script...09:58
anteayajlibosva: so a non-crashing patchset, that is a worthy metric09:58
anteayaah so you don't want to test this, belmoreira?09:58
belmoreiraor in a standard nova-network configuration09:58
anteayathen I made a poor assumption09:58
anteayaspandhe: do you have any ability to help us test the db migration patchset?09:58
gusbelmoreira: ah I see, so you're expecting to use some customised version of this migration tool?09:59
anteayaso time to wrap up09:59
spandheanteaya: I think I can..09:59
anteayaspandhe: oh that would be great09:59
anteayaspandhe: can you work with jlibosva this week?09:59
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anteayasee what you can accomplish?09:59
jlibosvathat would be good10:00
anteayaand we need to wrap up10:00
spandhesure.. jlibosva.. shall we talk again later? what timezone ar u in?10:00
belmoreiraanteaya: I really want to test it... and work on top of it... I can give feedback however our DB as some particularities that will not fit the generic test that is expected.10:00
anteayaanother great meeting folks, thank you10:00
obondarevthanks, bye everyone10:00
jlibosvathanks, bye10:00
gusbelmoreira: ack, understood.10:00
anteayabelmoreira: I made assumptions I shouldn't have, sorry about that10:00
gusthanks all.10:00
belmoreirathanks10:00
anteayaand show up to the cross-project meeting today if you can10:00
anteayaI'll be giving a status update and welcome your input10:01
anteayathanks for your hard work everyone10:01
anteaya#endmeeting10:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"10:01
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openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-10-09.00.html10:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-10-09.00.txt10:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-10-09.00.log.html10:01
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armaxhi13:59
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rkukurahi13:59
ihrachyshka\o13:59
marioso/13:59
markmcclaino/13:59
emaganaHello! (barely awake)13:59
anteayaemagana: oh good, you're here13:59
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armaxmarun: ping14:00
armaxok, let’s start14:00
watanabe_isaoHello!(first join)14:00
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armax#startmeeting networking14:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb 10 14:00:20 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is armax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking'14:00
armax#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings Agenda14:00
emaganaanteaya: I just woke up.. maybe not very productive14:00
marunarmax: pong14:00
anteayaemagana: you're singing my song14:00
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armaxas usual…a reminder of the important dates14:00
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armax(which are fast approaching)14:01
armaxFeature Proposal Freeze: March 514:01
armaxFeature, String, and Dependency Freeze: March 1914:01
armaxRCs: April 9-2314:01
armaxKilo release: April 3014:01
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salv-orlandoaloha?14:02
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armaxsalv-orlando: aloha!14:02
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armaxplease make sure that if you have a feature that needs to hit the Kilo deadline, the code is posted by the feature proposal freeze deadline14:02
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armaxthe current K3 backlog is https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/kilo-314:03
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armax#announcement: by the way K2 is out: https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/kilo-214:03
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armax#undo14:03
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x995ea50>14:03
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armax#topic Announcements by the way K2 is out: https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/kilo-214:04
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salv-orlandothat's a nice topic14:04
ajo:-)14:04
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armaxsalv-orlando: that’s custom made, just for you!14:05
armaxok, let’s move on...14:05
armax#topic Bugs14:05
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armaxenikanorov: you’re up14:05
salv-orlandoanyway, if you want this in minutes you can use the info hashtag14:05
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armaxenikanorov_: ping14:06
enikanorov_armax: not much to update this week14:06
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salv-orlandoenikanorov: do you have a status about how gate jobs are doing?14:07
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ajoI need to look back at this bug:14:07
ajohttps://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/141098214:07
openstackLaunchpad bug 1410982 in neutron "test_slaac_from_os frequent failures" [High,Confirmed] - Assigned to Miguel Angel Ajo (mangelajo)14:07
enikanorov_salv-orlando: based on my observations, there were no major neutron-related failures14:07
armaxajo: great14:08
ajoAt some point in time, one of my patches raised the failure rate a lot,14:08
armaxajo: is there anything we can help you with?14:08
ajobut, then it went back to it's usual state (it had been there for a long time)14:08
salv-orlandoenikanorov_: without gate unreliability, neutron is not fun anymore.14:08
ajoarmax, I will re-evaluate the situation to see how it's now14:08
marunsalv-orlando: you have a funny definition of 'fun' :P14:08
ajoarmax and I will keep you updated14:08
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armaxajo: ok ping me if you need help14:08
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ajoack14:09
enikanorov_salv-orlando: ha. so we;ve been having all those issues because you wanted to have fun? ;)14:09
armaxok, we cannot make fun of Neutron instability anymore, by the sounds of it14:09
marunarmax: let's not be hasty...14:09
armaxmarun: :)14:09
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armaxok, does anyone have any other issue they would like to discuss/raise awareness here?14:10
salv-orlandoenikanorov_: you're making it sound as if I introduced those bugs on purpose14:10
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armaxif not we can switch to…14:10
salv-orlandoone thing from me...14:10
armax14:11
armaxsalv-orlando: shoot14:11
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enikanorov_salv-orlando: ;)14:11
salv-orlandothere has been a lot of discussion recently on MTU selection and impact on GRE communication14:11
salv-orlandodo we want to spend some times on it now or open discussion?14:11
armaxwe can leave it to the open discussion, IMO14:11
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ajo+114:11
salv-orlandoI just want to have a picture of the current status (I think I have it) and whether we'll manage to fix it for good for kilo14:11
salv-orlandoopen discussion it is thn14:12
armaxsalv-orlando: ok14:12
armax#topic Docs14:12
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ajosalv-orlando, it's an interesting topic to me :)14:12
armaxemagana: you awake?14:12
ajo:)14:12
emaganaarmax: barely!14:12
armaxemagana: shall we come back in a few hours? :)14:12
ajothank you for all the USA people from joining at this early time ;)14:12
ajofrom joining? for joining...14:13
emaganaOk! The Networking Docs team is moving the initial scenarios legacy for both LB and OVS out of github14:13
emaganaThey will be in gerrit anytime soon for your review!14:13
armaxemagana: good stuff14:13
emaganaWe believe they are in good shape to start the normal gerrit process14:14
armaxemagana: is there anyone we’d need to earmark for review?14:14
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markmcclainemagana: awesome14:14
emaganaI was asked if someone could help on this bug: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/122024/14:14
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emaganaarmax: everybody!  but the gerrit commit is not there yet!14:15
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emaganaIt should happen this week, I will send a note to the mailing list14:15
armaxemagana: not sure I see the relationship between docs and #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/122024/14:15
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armaxemagana: ok, great…when the link is out, please feel free to tag me as reviewer14:16
armaxthanks14:16
emaganaarmax: One of the scenarios is blocked because of this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/136972114:16
openstackLaunchpad bug 1369721 in neutron "manually moving dvr-snat router fails" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Mike Smith (michael-smith6)14:16
armaxemagana: understood14:16
armaxI think Mike is OOO14:16
marunemagana: btw, once this lands, doc changes won't be subject to tempest/rally/grenade jobs :) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152298/14:16
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armaxmarun: that is some great news!14:17
emaganamarun: Thanks for sharin!14:17
armaxwe should probably make a big announcement when that happens14:17
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armaxemagana: anything else?14:18
emaganasadly I haven't done personally much progress on the migration from nova-net scenario   :-(14:18
emaganaI know anteaya and obondarev and looking forward to reviewwing that part.. my apologies14:18
armaxI guess that brings us to the next topic14:19
emaganareviewing*14:19
anteayaemagana: we can talk about that after the meeting14:19
armax#topic Open Discussion14:19
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emaganaanteaya: sure!14:19
armaxwe have a few items on the agenda14:19
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ajosalv-orlando: GRE/mtu ?14:19
armaxone of it is Nova-network to Neutron migration14:19
anteayahello14:19
armaxanteaya: ping14:19
armaxajo: in due course ;)14:20
anteayawe are making progress14:20
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salv-orlandobasically it's been a lot of releases now that we're leaving to the deployer the onus of setting it up14:20
anteayaarmax: thanks for merging the first part of the spec14:20
salv-orlandoajo: ^^14:20
armaxanteaya: np14:20
anteayanow we need to get that documented with emagana's help so that sdague has something to show operators at their meetup in the second week of march14:20
armaxanteaya: I believe that the second half is still up for review14:21
emaganaanteaya: I will be at the operators meetup as well!14:21
anteayaand we have jlibosva's patch which he is going to work with a operator to get to the testing stage14:21
anteayaarmax: yes it is14:21
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anteayaemagana: awesome14:21
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markmcclainis there any reason to keep blocking teh 2nd half of the review?14:21
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markmcclainseems like we should be able to merge and then update as we progress14:21
emaganamarun: I have the same question!!14:21
anteayaso the second part of the spec needs working code for some reviews to feel comfortable with the second part of the spec14:21
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markmcclainanteaya: I can see that, but it's not like we're carving stone14:22
emaganaare we all talking about this one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/142456?14:22
anteayamarkmcclain: dansmith said at nova meetup he wanted to see code14:22
armaxemagana: yes14:22
anteayamarkmcclain: well I don't feel we are blocking the spec, it is being worked on14:22
anteayamarkmcclain: do you feel it is blocked?14:22
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markmcclainanteaya: if as long as you don't feel like that is a blocker then I'm fine with the current direciton14:23
anteayato continue there is some question on the proxy patch to clarify is is required14:23
armaxmarkmcclain: it sounds to me that we can approve it or not…what counts is the code underpinning it14:23
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markmcclainarmax: exactly14:23
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anteaya#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/migration-from-nova-net,n,z14:23
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anteayawell dansmith was fairly specific14:24
anteayaand since we could get to a place where he could agree14:24
armaxmarkmcclain: so what action plan do you propose?14:24
salv-orlandoit's not like we're required to sign it with out blood in order to approve it. I guess we can say that it's kind of ok for now14:24
salv-orlando*our blood14:24
anteayaI don't want him to feel his request is being dismissed14:24
anteayaas I told him I thought his request was reasonable14:24
markmcclainarmax: if anteaya is happy then let's keep the direction14:25
anteayawhat would happen with the spec approved now as opposed to our current workflow?14:25
anteayais there a piece I am missing?14:25
armaxI am happy if anteaya is happy14:25
anteayawe are making good progress by my measurement and not upsetting folks thus far14:25
markmcclainanteaya: no.. I was just making sure that the unapproved spec wasn't something hindering progress14:25
anteayathanks14:25
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anteayaah okay, I don't feel it is14:25
anteayaI expect some pushback after the ops meeting14:26
anteayaas I am guessing many haven't been paying attention14:26
ajo_sorry, OSX blew up... ;/14:26
armaxok, let’s keep reviewing the spec and make progress on the code, and we’ll reassess the situation in a week’s time14:26
anteayathanks14:26
anteayadone14:26
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armaxlet’s move on the next topic on the open discussion14:26
armaxquick update on Plugin Decomp14:26
armaxa few folks are going through the motions14:27
armaxI would like to remind you that, in order to get reviewer attention, it’s useful to have the review commit message mention the blueprint topic14:28
ihrachyshkaon that note, I also want to note that we should make sure that old full python paths work for decomposed plugins14:28
armaxthe latest status is reported here #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/core-vendor-decomposition14:29
ihrachyshkaf.e. see https://review.openstack.org/151893 that moves files to different places.14:29
armaxif you don’t see your plugin/driver here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OQN0VlKzKC1gYlxgalQXKDTGGWogWFRtD3S5OpepsX414:29
armaxping me directly in channel14:29
armaxihrachyshka: thanks I’ll look into it14:29
marun /url 114:29
armaxanother ongoing effort is to document the ‘contribution’ steps for new or existing folks14:30
armaxthis is taking shape here: #link https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/doc/source/devref/contribute.rst14:30
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armaxok14:31
armaxon the next open discussion item...14:31
armaxMultiple template libraries being used in-tree14:31
armaxwho did put this on the agenda?14:31
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markmcclaindidn't this come from the ML discussion from sc68cal?14:31
armaxsc68cal: you there?14:31
markmcclainhe had noticed that we were using both mako and jinja214:32
markmcclainbut mako was a drive by from alembic… I think we had only been explicitly using jinja214:32
armaxok, it looks like sc68cal is not around..14:32
armaxmarkmcclain: what do you suggest?14:32
markmcclainthat's status quo…we should keep14:32
ihrachyshka+114:33
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marunthe review that triggered his concern won't need a templating language at all, so the issue should be moot14:34
marunhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/128259/14:34
armaxso is the resolution to drop mako?14:34
marunjschwarz was intending to use templates to drive configuration in testing. I've convinced him to generate the files without templates instead14:35
marunalembic will still require mako14:35
marunbut we won't be adding an explicit dependency of our own - we'll continue to use jinja214:35
ajo_+114:35
armaxmarun: that’s my understanding14:35
ajo_that's my understanding too14:36
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salv-orlandoI don't think anybody is troubled by this14:36
HenryGI agree, it's a non-issue14:36
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armaxyup14:36
ajocorrect14:36
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armaxit sounds like we should just say on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128259 that Mako should not be in the requirements?14:37
marunarmax: I've already -1'd on the issue of using templates at all14:37
armaxmarun: cool14:37
armaxone last reported item on the open discussion agenda is ‘Neutron as the default in Devstack'14:37
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marunotherwiseguy: around? :)14:38
armaxit looks like that we did switch for a bit, only to back out because of a config problem14:38
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salv-orlandothe change was reverted because it seems like people need to add a few config params explicitly to localrc14:38
armaxanyone has suggestions on how to get to resolution?14:38
marunotherwiseguy found a solution to the 'vms can see the world' problem that folks were reporting14:38
salv-orlandothe desire apparently is to make it work out of the box, and therefore to me this means providing reasonable defaults for every parameter14:39
armaxotherwiseguy: do I hear that you’re voluteering?14:39
marunI think that's the biggest problem preventing from 'just working'14:39
armax:)14:39
ajoah, so people used to nova expected VMs to go "to the world"14:39
marunarmax: he's pretty busy with the ovsdb work, so if anyone else can pick it up that would be helpful14:39
ajoinstead of just to the local virtual network with the devstack vm?14:39
marunajo: Apparently so14:39
ajoah, ok14:39
armaxmarun: let’s hear it from otherwiseguy  :P14:39
marunarmax: basically though, the solution is to double nat14:40
markmcclainwe should be able to bridge the router's ext net to the the upstream interface like nova-net does right?14:40
ajoI guess we need to plug the main interface to br-ex14:40
markmcclainmarun: why double nat?14:40
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marunmarkmcclain: you'd have to ask otherwiseguy. If you can think of an easier way, great.14:41
armaxit sounds like a solution is within reach, we’d need to find someone championing this change14:41
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marunarmax: wait...14:41
marunthere was an etherpad...14:41
marunhttps://etherpad.openstack.org/p/devstack-neutron-default14:42
marunit wasn't just14:42
marunvm's can see the world14:42
marunsdague and co put together this etherpad of requirements that they wanted to see met for having neutron become the default14:43
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marunbased on their experience of trying it out briefly last week14:43
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armaxmarun: great14:43
armax#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/devstack-neutron-default14:43
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markmcclainok.. those are all reasonable14:43
markmcclaindo we have a bug for this in neutron or devstack?14:43
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marunmarkmcclain: I'm not sure, mestery would know14:44
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marunor sdague14:44
markmcclainok.. I'll follow up with him14:44
markmcclainor both14:44
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otherwiseguymarun: just woke up14:44
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armax#action markmcclain to follow up with mestery in relation to Neutron as default in Devstack14:44
armaxI don’t believe there’s a bug no14:45
marunotherwiseguy: maybe you can talk with markmcclain about why double nat is a good way to allow VM's to see the world?14:45
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marunotherwiseguy: he seemed to have questions14:45
markmcclainwe can work on this outside the meeting… since there's only 3 of us talking14:45
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otherwiseguyok14:46
ajoi'm reading14:46
ajo:D14:46
armaxok, let’s move on14:46
armaxsalv-orlando, ajo: MTU14:46
markmcclainajo: we'll chat in -neutron so you can keep following :)14:46
ajotrue14:46
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salv-orlandoI don't want to bother people to much14:46
ajomarkmcclain: ack14:46
ajosalv-orlando: what's the issue with GRE and mtu selection?14:46
ajosalv-orlando: does it break some thing?, I'm still missing some context, I guess14:47
salv-orlandoAt this stage my only question is about 1) the status of mut-selection-and-adverstiment 2) whether people that know about its progress whether they can say if it's going to solve issues observed by sers14:47
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salv-orlandoajo: I am referring to recent posts on the mailing list, where users have reported fragmentation occurring at different layers, and bandwidth on gre networks dropping to 23kb/s with 10GB links14:48
ajosalv-orlando: 1) I saw initial model implementation, if that was the question: https://review.openstack.org/15373314:48
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armaxsalv-orlando: the model change merged here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/153451/14:48
ajosalv-orlando, I've myself experienced that, due to inability to control MTU internally (neutron) or externally (the IP network I was using)14:48
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ajoah, the other link were just settings, right, thanks armax14:49
ajosalv-orlando, what's the topic on the mail list?14:49
salv-orlandocool, so basically the approach we'll go for is that it will be up to the user to choose the right one. It might be reasonable, not 100% if that's what users are expecting, but I'm not the one who can judge it14:50
ajoahh, "higher MTU for all interfaces" ?14:50
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ajoyes, sometimes you don't have control over your L2 infrastructure to allow higher mtu,14:50
ajoor... it's not capable over all the L3 hops14:50
salv-orlandoajo: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack/2015-January/011207.html14:50
armaxsalv-orlando: frankly I don’t believe that at this point can really do anything smarter than that14:50
ajoso, in that case is only possible to internally use a lower mt14:51
ajomt->mtu14:51
salv-orlandoarmax: that's good for me. I thought people smarter than me might have smarter ideas14:51
armaxbut I would be eager to see the rest of the impleemtnation from ijw’s spec14:51
armax*implementation14:51
HenryGI can ask the folks working on the implementation to give a progress report14:51
ajosalv-orlando, thanks for the link, I was looking at a different thread14:51
ihrachyshkahm. in that spec, weren't we going to encode max-mtu for tunnels in physnet definition? I think that's smart enough to solve perf drop, isn't it?14:52
armaxHenryG: that would be super-duper14:52
ajosalv-orlando, I actually helped eren debug that problem on the neutron channel14:52
ajobut, I couldn't replicate it in my environment,14:52
ajoit seems related to his kernel version or something..14:52
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ajomy LB's didn't defragment packets..14:53
armaxok, time check...14:53
armax8 minutes to the end of the meeting14:53
armax#action HenryG to follow up to see the progress of the MTU spec14:53
armaxand then we can take the disucssion on the review(s)14:53
armaxanything else?14:53
ajoThanks HenryG14:53
armaxon this topic?14:53
armaxlooks like we’re good14:54
anteayaI would like to mention since we are in open discussion, that alaski is looking for a neutron point person to co-ordinate communication with nova cells, as currently neutron doesn't know about it14:54
armaxI’d like to bring a topic to attention14:54
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armaxanteaya: excellent point14:54
ajoyes, good point14:54
armaxanyone willing to help? Don’t rush all at once14:54
anteayathanks, so the hunt for a volunteer is ongoing14:54
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armaxanteaya: where is alaski based? I mean what timezone?14:55
anteayaarmax: not exactly sure, I'm guessing pst14:55
alaskiI'm EST14:55
anteayaalaski: the man himself, thank you14:55
armaxalaski: ok great, welcome14:55
alaskithanks14:56
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armaxalaski: let’s talk briefly in the neutron channel14:56
armaxI’ll ping you after the meeting14:56
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armaxdougwig: ping14:56
alaskiarmax: sounds good14:56
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armaxit sounds like all the adv-svc projects depend on a copy of netron that comes out of git14:57
armaxlike: https://github.com/openstack/neutron-fwaas/blob/master/requirements.txt#L1814:57
armaxnot only these projects like fw, vpn and lb14:57
markmcclainright this is know problem14:57
armaxbut also stackforge projects that are taking shape14:57
armaxmarkmcclain: correct,14:57
ihrachyshkado you want to publish releases on pypi?14:57
armaxI wonder if we have a resolution14:57
armaxihrachyshka: we could, only if we can tag arbitrarely14:58
markmcclainihrachyshka: none of hte other server projects are pushed to pypi14:58
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armaxmarkmcclain: ya14:58
ihrachyshkathat would also slow down changes since we would have delay between time when neutron is patched and the code reaches aas repos14:58
armaxthat’s what  I noticed14:58
markmcclainarmax: we can tag, but releasing creates a lot of problems14:58
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marunit solves some, too14:58
armaxmarkmcclain: if we could tag, that would be a good enough stop-gap14:59
ihrachyshkacan we depend on tag in reqs.txt?14:59
armaxbut I would like to understand what is the crux of the matter14:59
otherwiseguyalso I think neutron gate tempest tests can fail if *aas breaks.14:59
markmcclainarmax, ihrachyshka: testing in the gate will be a mess14:59
marunotherwiseguy: we'll need to fix that for sure14:59
armaxbut perhaps we can discuss this in-channel and bring it to attention on the next weekly meeting14:59
ihrachyshkaotherwiseguy, how so? we don't gate on them14:59
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marunwe can't afford to co-gate, it's a failed strategy14:59
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armaxwe have only one minute spare14:59
markmcclainin Vancouver we need to discuss extracting out the library bits they need14:59
armaxmarkmcclain: yes15:00
armaxok, folks15:00
anteayacan we include infra in this discussion15:00
armax#endmeeting15:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb 10 15:00:11 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:00
armaxthanks everyone!15:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-02-10-14.00.html15:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-02-10-14.00.txt15:00
otherwiseguyihrachyshka: I tried changing the API by removing root_helper, they broke, my patch wouldn't pass the gate15:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-02-10-14.00.log.html15:00
ajoThank you armax ;)15:00
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marunciao15:00
n0ano#startmeeting gantt15:00
markmcclainarmax: thanks15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb 10 15:00:40 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:00
ihrachyshkaotherwiseguy, hm, ok15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'gantt'15:00
n0anoAnyone here to talk about the scheduler?15:00
edleafeo/15:00
* jaypipes around... barely.15:00
lxslio/15:01
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PaulMurrayhi15:01
n0anolet's get started then ( bauzas should join soon )15:02
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n0ano#topic Remove direct nova DB/API access by Scheduler Filters - https://review.opernstack.org/138444/15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Remove direct nova DB/API access by Scheduler Filters - https://review.opernstack.org/138444/ (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:02
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n0anoedleafe, I see ndipanov  has some issues with your spec (sigh), were you able to work it out?15:02
edleafeOK, so after last week's meeting I pushed to get eyes on the spec after integrating all of the spec cores' suggestions.15:02
bauzas\o15:02
* bauzas waves late15:02
edleafeI got all +1s from the Gantt team members, but then Nikola brought up some strong objections (he wasn't at the midcycle).15:02
edleafeDan Smith then objected, suggesting that we change the approach to the one that jaypipes rejected earlier, namely sending just the changes.15:03
edleafeAfter speaking with Dan, jaypipes then changed his mind, too, and since he was the driving force behind this approach, we were back at the starting line.15:03
edleafeThere was no chance adding differential notification to the spec and getting all of that approved and coded in time for Kilo.15:03
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edleafeSo the only chance for anything in Kilo was to greatly simplify the approach, so I re-wrote the specs so that the only change is additional instance info is returned with the host info.15:03
edleafeNo feedback whatsoever in the past 4 days, though.15:03
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ndipanovedleafe, yeah sorry about no feedback bit15:03
alex_xu_o/15:03
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ndipanovwas completely swamped15:03
edleafeSo I'm pretty sure that there is very little chance of this making it through15:04
bauzasedleafe: I think you're right15:04
edleafeSomeone convince me otherwise, please! :)15:04
bauzasedleafe: I mean, about the deliverables15:04
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lxsliPardon my naivete - is a FFE implausible?15:04
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n0anoedleafe, it's still open to exception approval (note johnthetubaguy mail), the question is creating the code patches15:04
lxsliDo you mean it's very unlikely even with a FFE?15:04
bauzaslxsli: the spec is not merged yet15:04
edleafelxsli: we don't even have an approved spec15:05
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bauzaslxsli: so we're even not talking about patches15:05
edleafeand the one that was close to approved has been rejected15:05
edleafeSo we're starting over now15:05
bauzasedleafe: my spec has been approved, so I can go thru it15:05
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n0anoedleafe, but you simplified the approach, that should help - yes?15:05
edleafebauzas: but yours doesn't cover this stuff15:05
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bauzasedleafe: in the meantime, maybe some people will jump in and discuss about the change in game15:05
edleafen0ano: that was my hope15:06
bauzasedleafe: yeah, but it will just shed the light on15:06
edleafebut time keeps ticking...15:06
bauzasedleafe: I seriously doubt that your spec could be approved15:06
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bauzasedleafe: so keep it for L15:06
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n0anoI'd prefer to keep pushing while realizing it is very risky, we have to get some cores to review your patch15:07
edleafebauzas: and with your changes, the spec I wrote would need further change15:07
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edleafe(I based it on existing code)15:07
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bauzasedleafe: hency my thoughts : you made great work but you need to consider it for L15:07
bauzasedleafe: which is not that far away, btw.15:08
edleafebauzas: no, only 8 months15:08
edleafe:)15:08
bauzasedleafe: the branching should happen in 1 month or so15:08
bauzasedleafe: I mean, Lxxx open for merging15:08
edleafebauzas: I know the timeline15:08
alex_xu_edleafe: anything we can help?15:09
n0anobauzas, but spec approval won't even start until after Vancouver15:09
edleafebauzas: but it means that a separate scheduler now looks like an M thing at the earliest15:09
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bauzasedleafe: I'm not seeing this as sequential15:09
edleafealex_xu_: no, not really. Unless you have a time machine15:09
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n0anoedleafe, I hope that's not the case, if we can get you approved early in L we will still have time for the split15:10
alex_xu_emm....that's said15:10
bauzasn0ano: +115:10
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bauzasn0ano: that's my thoughts15:10
bauzasn0ano: we can work on splitting things while edleafe is working on his spec15:10
n0anowe know there's going to be lots of work for the split, this will just be another part of it15:10
alex_xu_edleafe: at least we can try to get the spec in this release, then we can save some spec review time in L15:11
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bauzasn0ano: smart sentence15:11
edleafebauzas: the split can happen without this15:11
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edleafebauzas: this was just an intermediate step15:11
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edleafewe can separate the data without having to first go through this15:11
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bauzasedleafe: agreed, so what's the purpose of you saying 'it won't happen for L?315:12
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bauzas:)15:12
n0anoedleafe, we should keep pushing for approval on your spec to increase the odds that it'll be the first spec approved for L15:12
bauzasn0ano: you're just picking my words15:12
edleafebauzas: my point is that if we insist on this spec first, it will push everything off15:12
n0anobauzas, clarifying, that's all :-)15:13
bauzasedleafe: but you said that you would have to rewrite your spec based on my work, right ?15:13
* alex_xu_ hopes have a car like in the movie 'back to the future'15:13
bauzasedleafe: so why not considering that my work is just a dependency on your stuff ?15:13
edleafeI say we need to just focus on cleaning the interfaces for data, instead of trying to force them into these intermediate half-changes15:13
bauzasedleafe: right, so I think that your spec needs to be a final one, and not something that you're planning to land for Kilo15:14
bauzasthat's just your words - intermediate15:14
edleafebauzas: then I don't understand why it was ever supposed to be a separate spec15:14
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edleafebauzas: if it just dependent on your changes15:15
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bauzasedleafe: sounds like there is a confusion there15:15
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edleafebauzas: intermediate in the sense that this isn't how we want a separate scheduler to work in the long run15:15
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edleafewe want it to own the data, not just ask for it from nova in different ways15:16
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bauzasedleafe: I was just referring to15:16
bauzas(16:03:35) edleafe: So the only chance for anything in Kilo was to greatly simplify the approach, so I re-wrote the specs so that the only change is additional instance info is returned with the host info.15:16
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bauzasedleafe: forget Kilo and provide the right approach for L15:16
edleafebauzas: that was last week when I re-wrote the spec15:17
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edleafethe fact that nobody has given feedback since then is what made me think that it cannot make it into K15:17
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n0anoedleafe, well, personally, I was waiting for ndipanov to comment, he had the original objection and should have responded to your change15:18
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bauzasedleafe: agreed, so that's why we still need to help you by reviewing your approach so we keep momentum on your spec15:18
edleafen0ano: Understood, but it's not like the cores don't have a zillion other things to focus on15:18
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n0anoedleafe, don't get me started I don't accept that as an excuse, we all have many things to do15:19
bauzasanyway, I think we have a consensus : we need to review your spec and comment it, whatever the outcome will be15:19
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n0anobauzas, +115:20
alex_xu_bauzas: +115:20
edleafen0ano: not an excuse; just reality15:20
n0ano#action all to review the spec `today`15:20
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* n0ano wonders why his actions never take15:20
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bauzasedleafe: and as I said to you, your spec deserves some time before reviewing, because that one is quite tricky15:20
edleafe#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138444/15:20
lxsliit'd be great if ndipanov, bauzas + edleafe could agree the bones of the ideal solution right now rather than volleying review comments15:20
ndipanovsure15:21
ndipanovmy point is basically this15:21
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edleafen0ano: actions take; the bot just doesn't echo them here15:21
ndipanovwe should not disable hitting the db as such15:21
edleafen0ano: check the minutes afterwards15:21
ndipanovwe should make it go through a well defined scheduler (gantt) interface15:21
ndipanovthat we need to define for this15:22
ndipanovas this is a common usecase for people15:22
ndipanovand I feel it is orthogonal to any performance improvements like caching15:22
edleafendipanov: yes, this is not about performance per se15:22
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lxsliThat does sound like it could be a smaller, more incremental change15:22
ndipanovbut having said that I did not read dansmith 's follow up comments on my comment15:23
ndipanovso I'd be happy with just solidifying that interface15:23
ndipanovand also I am not sure it should be about instances as such15:23
edleafendipanov: dansmith wanted to send diffs of the instance list instead of the full list15:23
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ndipanovbut I could be flexible on this maybe15:23
edleafendipanov: sending the full list was something jaypipes had pushed for15:23
dansmithedleafe: no, I wanted to send just the instance on which the action is being taken15:23
ndipanovedleafe, to me this is also an optimization15:23
edleafedansmith: well, isn't that the same thing?15:24
dansmithedleafe: no?15:24
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edleafedansmith: ok, a node has instances. Something changes on one. We send that change.15:24
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dansmithcorrect15:25
edleafedansmith: to the scheduler, that's a diff: take the instance that changed, and update your local view of it15:25
dansmithand then send a list of just uuids periodically, which allows the scheduler to patch up in the case of a missed one15:25
dansmithedleafe: diffs of the list imply potentially multiple instances updated in a single go to me15:25
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edleafedansmith: sure, but that's a separate concern15:26
dansmithedleafe: what we should be doing is saying "this instance changed" not "here's a patch against your cache"15:26
bauzasI think we validated a 2-step approach15:26
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edleafedansmith: sure, definitely not a patch15:26
bauzas1. update the list of instances per host when the Scheduler is starting15:26
bauzas2. provide updates to the scheduler when a state changes15:26
ndipanovdansmith, I think we are talking about 2 different things here15:26
edleafedansmith: we used the term 'diff' in earlier discussions; contrasted with sending the whole list15:26
bauzas2. can be a full list of instances per host or only a diff, but that's still 2.15:27
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bauzasthe difference is only optimization15:27
ndipanovwhat you guys are saying is that we should make update instances from the host and then debate on how to do this in a reasonable manner15:27
bauzasedleafe: that's why I dislike your new PS15:27
ndipanovwhat I am trying to say is that we should design that API to not be only about instances15:27
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dansmiththe critical difference to me is the semantic meaning of the interface15:27
bauzasedleafe: because you are no longer mentioning those 2 steps15:28
ndipanovdansmith, go on15:28
edleafebauzas: the new version doesn't have scheduler keeping a list of instances15:28
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lxslindipanov: we only need instances today - we can add other info later, maybe after the split is further progressed + the scheduler is truly owning instance data15:28
dansmithndipanov: I don't know what you mean about "making it not just about instances"15:28
bauzasndipanov: FYI that's been approved for Aggregates http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/kilo/approved/isolate-scheduler-db-aggregates.html15:28
dansmiththe only thing that needs to be communicated immediately is about instances, AIUI15:29
edleafedansmith: correct15:29
ndipanovdansmith, ok15:29
edleafedansmith: and only two attributes of the instances15:29
dansmithedleafe: eh? what two attributes?15:29
edleafedansmith: uuid and instance_type_id15:30
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dansmithI don't think I agree with that15:30
edleafedansmith: those are the only two things that the filters need15:30
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dansmiththat makes the API far too specific to be generally useful going forward15:30
ndipanovdansmith, agreed15:30
dansmithedleafe: yeah, but that just makes it useless for anything else15:30
lxsliedleafe: I think we're all happy to store all instance attrs rather than splitting it down so fine though15:30
ndipanovI see what dansmith is saying15:30
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dansmithedleafe: we need to just pass the whole instance object15:30
ndipanovand then have a "protocol" on how to pass updates15:31
bauzasdansmith: that, we agreed15:31
dansmithedleafe: the scheduler can glean whatever it needs from that information, regardless of what it is looking for -- the compute node doesn't and shouldn't care15:31
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bauzasndipanov: that's what we're trying to provide, ie. a new Scheduler RPC API method for updating Scheduler's view15:31
edleafedansmith: agreed - that was my original logic15:32
ndipanovbauzas, that's what I lobbied for in that spec too15:32
edleafejaypipes objected to the the individual updates15:32
edleafehe pushed for sending the full InstanceList15:32
bauzasndipanov: so, I think it was unclear in edleafe's spec then, because it was explicit in my own spec for aggregates15:32
edleafeso that there would be no issues involving sync15:32
bauzasndipanov: ie. we have a warmup period for learning the world, and then we provide updates to the scheduler15:33
dansmithIMHO, syncing the entire list any time anything happens is faaaar too heavy15:33
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bauzasdansmith: hence your point on only sending the diff15:33
dansmithbauzas: stop saying diff :)15:33
bauzasthe diff being the full Instance object15:33
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dansmithbauzas: "affected instance"15:33
dansmithheh15:33
ndipanovbauzas, would that work for aggregates too?15:33
lxsliThere was a suggestion to send the whole InstanceList on startup; just the changed Instance on change; and the instance UUIDs from each host periodically to prevent desync15:33
bauzasyou typed too fast15:34
bauzasndipanov: see the spec http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/kilo/approved/isolate-scheduler-db-aggregates.html15:34
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bauzasndipanov: the problem with instances is that it doesn't scale the same as for aggregates15:34
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ndipanovbauzas, right...15:34
bauzasndipanov: that's far more bigger than just a list of aggs15:35
bauzasso this is a scale problem, not a design problem15:35
bauzasbecause we agreed on providing the updates thru RPC to the scheduler15:35
ndipanovso what dansmith is saying is - design the API so that it can scale if it has to (I think)15:35
bauzasfanout for the moment, incremental updates in a later cycle15:35
jaypipesedleafe: I only objected because I thought it was an optimization that could be done over time...15:36
bauzasndipanov: that, I strongly agree15:36
ndipanovbauzas, hmm15:36
bauzasndipanov: eh, multiple schedulers...15:36
edleafejaypipes: exactly15:36
dansmithndipanov: scale reasonably, so as not to be too specific to be irrelevant for new things, and not too heavy to be ,,, unscalable15:36
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edleafejaypipes: but it seems that it needs to be done upfront15:36
ndipanovdansmith, exactly!15:36
bauzasdansmith: smart words15:36
ndipanovjaypipes, I'd say it's part of the semantics really15:36
ndipanovI mean15:36
jaypipesedleafe: yes, after chatting with dansmith yesterday, I think I agree the API should be corrected now, not later.15:37
bauzasjaypipes: I think I agree with you15:37
edleafeok, so let me see if I can summarize15:37
ndipanovso wouldn't the API for instances and aggregates then look super similar?15:37
bauzasjaypipes: we only need to send the instance that is being impacted, period15:37
edleafe- go back to previous design (discussed at midcycle)15:37
bauzasndipanov: that's my thought15:38
lxsliThere was a suggestion to send the whole InstanceList on startup; just the changed Instance on change; and the instance UUIDs from each host periodically to prevent desync15:38
dansmithndipanov: if we send an object, then we could have one update method and send any object the scheduler should know about down that tube, is that what you mean?15:38
edleafe- change it to add an incremental update for changed instances15:38
ndipanovdansmith, well maybe15:38
ndipanovnot sure that it's relevant enough to block all work on15:38
ndipanovbut seems like here's intial state of this thing15:38
edleafe- add a regular update of all UUIDs that scheduler can use to chaeck for snc problems15:38
ndipanovhere are updates15:38
ndipanovis the pattern not tied to the object at hand15:39
edleafe- add a way for scheduler to ask for updates to missing/extra instance15:39
bauzasndipanov: +115:39
edleafeIs that about right?15:39
lxsliedleafe: +115:39
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ndipanovso not sure UUIDs are what we want here15:40
ndipanovas they are kind of instance specific15:40
lxslindipanov: instances are all we need for now15:40
ndipanovhmmm15:40
lxsliwe discussed that15:40
ndipanovright15:40
bauzasndipanov: we can just send over the wire the whole Instance object15:40
ndipanovbauzas, I'd prefer to use the facilites provided by objects15:40
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lxslibauzas: this is for preventing desync - a UUID list is lighter than an InstanceList15:40
ndipanoveven if it means extending them with an optional global ID that is not the DB id15:40
ndipanovdansmith, ? ^15:41
dansmithhuh? why do we need that?15:41
edleafendipanov: um, isn't that what a uuid is?15:41
ndipanovwell not sure we do15:41
ndipanovedleafe, it is but won't work for aggregates15:41
bauzaslxsli: I thought we discussed on only sending *one* item thru RPC, ie. update_instance() (with the arg being something related to *one* instance)15:41
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lxsliYes, for "change it to add an incremental update for changed instances"15:41
ndipanovso that's why I would avoid sticking to instance semantincs - and use Object semantics rather15:42
ndipanovif that makes sense15:42
lxslibauzas, but for "add a regular update of all UUIDs that scheduler can use to check for sync problems" we'll use UUIDs not an InstanceList15:42
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edleafendipanov: that sounds like quite a different spec, though15:42
dansmithndipanov: I think the scheduler still needs to have an isinstance(thing_being_updated, objects.Instance) logic15:42
bauzasndipanov: again, http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/kilo/approved/isolate-scheduler-db-aggregates.html is referring to passing over the wire an Aggregate object as parameter15:42
dansmithndipanov: but the interface can be "here's an object I just changed"15:42
edleafendipanov: adding a general interface for any service to update scheduler about any type of object15:42
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edleafendipanov: I can see that as the next step, but it seems a bit overreaching for now15:43
n0anoif I understand, we pass the entire instance object and this code would only extrace the UUID, other code would extract other parts15:43
bauzasedleafe: atm, we need dedicated interfaces for each type of resouce, we will factorize this later15:43
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ndipanovedleafe, well how do you go from this to general15:43
ndipanovthere is no way other than adding a completely separate new API15:44
ndipanovand iiuc this whole effort correctly15:44
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ndipanovit's about making the gantt interfaces solid15:44
ndipanov(not necessarily perfect)15:44
ndipanovbut workable15:44
dansmithno, I don't think so15:44
ndipanovok15:44
dansmithI think that this effort is actually about solving this one problem in a vacuum15:44
edleafedansmith: yes15:45
dansmithwhat we want to avoid, however, is pinning ourselves into an interface that isn't supportable as we make the next step to migrate to gantt15:45
lxsliyes15:45
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ndipanovwell in that case - use UUIDs and a new client method and all other things you guys said15:45
ndipanovand call it an Instance something15:45
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ndipanovupdate_instances_on_host_or_whatever15:46
lxslithat sounds excellent15:46
ndipanovit may not actually be such a bad idea15:46
edleafendipanov: 'update_instance_info()' - it's in the spec :)15:46
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ndipanovthough I would like to see it more general15:47
n0anothen, just to be clear, do we all agree on edleafe proposed steps:15:47
n0ano- go back to previous design (discussed at midcycle)15:47
n0ano- change it to add an incremental update for changed instances15:47
n0ano- add a regular update of all UUIDs that scheduler can use to chaeck for snc problems15:47
n0ano- add a way for scheduler to ask for updates to missing/extra instance15:47
lxsli+115:47
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jaypipes+115:47
ndipanovI guess15:47
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ndipanov+115:47
bauzasthat sounds reasonable15:47
bauzas+115:47
alex_xu_+115:47
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ndipanovwe can really look into making it more general later on15:48
edleafendipanov: I understand your frustration. This is the sort of thing I was hoping we would have addressed more clearly earlier on.15:48
bauzasndipanov: yeah, that's something we needed to work out after all of this15:48
n0anoedleafe, I think we have a plan, let's all try and review the updated spec as soon as it comes out15:48
ndipanovedleafe, yeah - I mean - it is about striking a balance between moving forward and not having a horrible API15:48
lxslindipanov: agreed, I'm looking forward to edleafe's plans for "making gantt own it completely rather than asking nova-compute in a different way"15:48
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edleafehence my desire to discuss general the scheduler interface at the midcycle15:48
bauzasedleafe: I was thinking there was a consensus on this...15:49
ndipanovnot sure what "making gantt own it completely rather than asking nova-compute in a different way" exactly means15:49
edleafebauzas: agreed15:49
bauzasedleafe: again, one spec has been approved, the other one is only different because of a scale problem15:49
edleafendipanov: it means that the scheduler needs to persist information it needs to make scheduling decisions.15:50
ndipanovright15:50
edleafeWe're nowhere near that now15:50
ndipanovwell we are persisting it in the DB :)15:50
ndipanovbut yes I get what you mean15:50
n0anondipanov, what I was going to say15:50
bauzasedleafe: that probably requires another scheduler worker15:50
bauzasedleafe: but I prefer to leave it for Gantt15:50
lxsliTen minutes, did we have a 2nd agenda item n0ano ?15:51
bauzasedleafe: because of the scaling problem mentioned by johnthetubaguy15:51
ndipanovbauzas, I also don't think it's bad to have two different ways to update 1) gimme all 2) gimme updates15:51
n0anoguys, we're running out of time...15:51
n0ano#topic opens15:51
*** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:51
ndipanovso ur spec is cool too15:51
ndipanovedleafe, anyway ping me when spec is updated pls15:51
n0anoany opens for today (not enough time to talk about patches)15:52
edleafendipanov: will do15:52
dims__open discussion?15:52
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n0anodims__, yes, right nwo15:52
johnthetubaguyedleafe: do ping me about the spec too, once you folks are happy with it15:52
n0anos/nwo/now15:52
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edleafejohnthetubaguy: you got it15:52
johnthetubaguy:)15:52
* n0ano johnthetubaguy just asked to be bothered, works for me :-)15:53
bauzaseh eh15:53
bauzascrickets for opens ?15:53
johnthetubaguyyup, saves me attempting to remember and failing15:53
lxsliif there's nothing else15:53
dims__ok, nova cores, there's a well curated quick hit list of bugs that are ready for review (updated few times every day) https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-nova-priorities-tracking15:53
lxslidansmith ndipanov: do you agree on the way forward for https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152689/ please?15:53
bauzasdims__: is that the right place to discuss this ? :D15:53
n0anodims__, yeah, but that is more approriate for the nova meeting on Thurs15:53
bauzasdims__: see /topic15:53
ndipanovwow!15:54
dims__whoops. sorry :)15:54
n0anodims__, NP15:54
dansmithlxsli: I rarely agree to anything15:54
ndipanovah that thing15:54
ndipanovwell I think we do in general15:54
lxslidansmith: noted...15:54
n0anoOK, I think we're done for today15:54
ndipanovI thought we did15:54
n0anotnx everyone, be back here next week15:54
n0ano#endmeeting15:54
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:55
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb 10 15:54:59 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:55
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-10-15.00.html15:55
ndipanov:(15:55
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-10-15.00.txt15:55
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-10-15.00.log.html15:55
lxsliOK just checking, I thought there might be something remaining - thanks!15:55
bauzaslxsli: sounds like jaypipes still has homework on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152689/15:55
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bauzaslxsli: it's tomato red15:55
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dims__lol15:55
jaypipesyep, haven't gotten to it.15:55
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bauzasjaypipes: eh, what are you wanting for cloning yourself as I said previously ?15:56
bauzaswaiting15:56
bauzas(dammit, stupid keyboard)15:56
n0anobauzas, must be a programmer, blames the HW first :-)15:56
bauzasn0ano: if we were Python objects, it would be very simple, so that's only a matter of trust15:57
n0ano:-)15:57
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lxslibauzas: yes, trying to avoid hassling jay while clearing his path for when he's ready :)16:10
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boris-42#startmeeting Rally17:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb 10 17:00:18 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'rally'17:00
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boris-42Hey hey17:00
rvasilets_hi17:01
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olkonamihi17:03
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amaretskiyhi17:05
boris-42okay let's start17:05
boris-42#topic Refactoring graphs algorithms to make them scalable17:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Refactoring graphs algorithms to make them scalable (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:05
boris-42amaretskiy: please share the status17:05
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amaretskiyi'm currently working on chunks support in html report17:06
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amaretskiythis means we can generate report from any count of iterations17:06
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amaretskiywith low memory usage17:06
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amaretskiythis requires complete rework of plot.py and its utils17:06
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amaretskiynow I have this patch set https://review.openstack.org/#/c/146814/17:07
amaretskiyit is still WIP17:07
amaretskiyand today will be next patch set17:07
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amaretskiyrework requires a lot of time17:07
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amaretskiyI believe that for next meeting this will be without WIP mark17:08
amaretskiyeom17:08
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boris-42amaretskiy: so what you did between patch on review and now17:08
amaretskiyi've reworked Histogram class17:09
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amaretskiyso now histogram allows create chart with one cycle over the task results17:09
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amaretskiythat requires change of task results schema obtained from the database17:10
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amaretskiythis class will be available in today's patch set17:10
amaretskiyin 1 our17:10
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amaretskiyeom17:10
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boris-42amaretskiy: I hope you didn't change the schema for now?17:12
amaretskiyno17:12
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boris-42amaretskiy: ok great I am going to cover that part17:12
amaretskiyi just added a code stub that changes schema in runtime17:12
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boris-42amaretskiy: it's in objects?17:13
amaretskiyso this stub should be removed during chunks generator implementation17:13
amaretskiyyes17:13
boris-42amaretskiy: ok17:13
boris-42great17:13
amaretskiythat is in objects.task.get_results17:13
boris-42Let move to next topic17:13
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boris-42amaretskiy: ok I am waiting for your patch17:13
boris-42#topic Murano base17:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Murano base (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:13
boris-42rvasilets_: hey hey17:13
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boris-42rvasilets_: what are your updates?17:14
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rvasilets_Hi? at the patch you can look here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/137650/5517:14
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rvasilets_This is already working patch17:14
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rvasilets_But I have some ideas to improve performance of it17:15
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rvasilets_I have already implemented it, but  the new tests issues. Nothing else. The logic of murano context is the same as was17:16
boris-42rvasilets_: ok great17:16
rvasilets_Just I have use another module to copy directories17:16
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boris-42amaretskiy: ^ could you take a look as well on this patch17:17
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amaretskiyok17:17
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rvasilets_Now I don't use subproccess command that takes a lot of time17:18
rvasilets_eom17:18
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boris-42#topic Overall updates in project17:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Overall updates in project (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:19
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boris-42We finished ' -> "17:21
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rvasilets_orz17:21
boris-42Fixed couple bugs related to Neutron (in VMTask benchmarks)17:22
boris-42Almost finished stop-on-sla-failure feature17:22
boris-42Add Mistral base for tests + set job in Mistral17:22
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boris-42Add benchmark for quotas17:23
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boris-42Add benchmark for designate servers17:23
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boris-42Add new rally.api (base for lib) and switched to it17:23
boris-42Fixed postgres17:23
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boris-42Add job for testing postgres & python34 (functional)17:24
boris-42And add base for plugins17:24
boris-42that's more or less all=)17:24
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boris-42any questions?17:24
rediskinpg+34 is turned off for now17:24
boris-42Ah various changes and optimization for "rally verify" part17:24
boris-42rediskin: oh as far as you are here17:24
boris-42#topic Rally Mirantis CI updates17:25
*** openstack changes topic to "Rally Mirantis CI updates (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:25
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boris-42rediskin: please share updates with us related to it17:25
rediskinrally ci is ready to +1/-117:25
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rediskinmore info is available on openstack wiki17:26
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boris-42rediskin: please17:27
rediskinhttps://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ThirdPartySystems/Mirantis_Rally_CI17:27
boris-42rediskin: share what you did during the latest week17:27
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boris-42rediskin: so?17:28
rediskini was busy doing code review17:28
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rediskinand doing many small changes to rally-ci17:29
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rediskinyou want me to list this stuff? anyone cares about it?17:29
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boris-42rediskin: at least I care about it..17:30
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boris-42rediskin: not enough?)17:30
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rediskinomg you know what i did last week %)17:31
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rediskinboris-42, also, path with rally-gate.py is ready to be reviewed17:31
rediskinagain17:31
rediskinpatch*17:31
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boris-42rediskin: but17:32
boris-42rediskin: you didnt' switch our CI17:32
boris-42rediskin: I mean not our17:32
boris-42rediskin: Infra CI to use your script17:32
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boris-42rediskin: so are you going to switch?17:33
rediskinboris-42, oh, ok. I'll do this17:33
boris-42rediskin: so when you finish this I will re-review your patch17:33
rediskinok17:33
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msdubovHi everyone, sorry for being late17:34
rediskinhiyo17:35
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boris-42msdubov: hey hey17:36
boris-42#topic sla-stop-on-failure17:36
*** openstack changes topic to "sla-stop-on-failure (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:36
boris-42msdubov: okay please share your updates17:36
msdubovboris-42 ok17:36
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msdubovSo I've already told about this patch the previous week17:37
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boris-42msdubov: did you work today on functional tests17:37
msdubovFor now, I believe it is almost ready and tested17:37
msdubovboris-42 yep17:37
msdubovNot finished yet17:37
boris-42msdubov: ah ok17:37
msdubovHope to finish today17:37
boris-42msdubov: okay I need as well to finish constant runner17:38
boris-42msdubov: I think that we should wait for constant runner before new release17:38
boris-42msdubov: ok so tomorrow probably we will merge that patch17:38
msdubovboris-42 Yes, as the SLA patch showed the current runner is not good enough :)17:38
boris-42msdubov: and Rally will get nice feature=)17:38
boris-42msdubov: yaya17:38
msdubovAgree17:38
boris-42msdubov: actually I know from the begging that it's bad17:39
boris-42msdubov: cause it was using processes instead of threads in each process =)17:39
msdubovCan I help you with the new ruuner?17:39
boris-42msdubov: yep you will17:39
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boris-42msdubov: I will just make raw code17:39
msdubovboris-42 ok17:39
boris-42msdubov: and you'll continue to make it perfect17:39
boris-42=)17:39
boris-42actually I think it's more or less everything that we should discuss17:39
boris-42#topic Open discussion17:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:40
boris-42any questions?17:40
amaretskiyno17:40
rvasilets_no17:40
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boris-42okay let's end meeting17:43
boris-42#endmeeting17:43
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:43
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb 10 17:43:49 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:43
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-10-17.00.html17:43
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-10-17.00.txt17:43
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-10-17.00.log.html17:43
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morganfainbergdolphm, ayoung, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods, amakarov, ajayaa, hogepodge, breton, lhcheng, nonameentername, samueldmq, htruta, amolock, wanghong https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting#Main_Agenda17:59
samueldmqo/17:59
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lbragstadyo17:59
marekdbonsoire17:59
amakarovhi!17:59
raildoo/17:59
dstaneko/17:59
ayoungI've lost all track of time.  What day is it again?17:59
dolphmo/17:59
dolphmayoung: meeting day17:59
dstanekit's yesterday17:59
gyee\o18:00
ayoungIts Groundhog Day here.18:00
gyeeheh18:00
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morganfainberglol18:00
lhchengo/18:00
morganfainberg#startmeeting Keystone18:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb 10 18:00:35 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:00
morganfainbergSo some quick house keeping and we'll get into the meeting18:00
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morganfainberg1) Please review code.18:00
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topolo/18:01
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morganfainbergwe've been slow on getting code landed due to limited feedback on open reviews, with exception of stevemar  and bknudson (and topol on -specs repo), we've all been somewhat guilty of letting things slide (myself included)18:01
joesavak\o18:01
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morganfainbergso great job stevemar, bknudson, and topol, but you shouldn't need to carry all the reviews.18:02
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ayoungI've been slogging through access info....years of cruft....18:02
morganfainbergayoung, yep i know18:02
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dstaneki've been awful ...18:02
morganfainbergbut if you work on that other reviewers should be easily covering the gap18:02
morganfainbergayoung, taking a break to work on a major initiative like accessinfo shouldn't impact us that much, but everyone has been off elsewhere18:03
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morganfainbergayoung, so it's def. not you specifically18:03
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ayoungWe hates...oh we hates it precious...no no we loves it.18:03
morganfainbergpart of it is that the core team is small and we've been very busy everywhere.18:03
morganfainbergso, in that light i've proposed marekd as a new addition to the core team: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056478.html18:04
gyeeprecious18:04
morganfainberg#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056478.html18:04
gyeenot sure about that Friday the 13th date though18:04
morganfainberggyee, shh, it's a lucky day18:04
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gyeefor those of us into lunar calendar, 13 is a lucky number!18:05
morganfainberghis added +2/-2 capability will help smooth things out as well even as we see an uptick from other core reviewers.18:05
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morganfainbergand...18:05
morganfainberghm. there was one more housekeeping thign18:05
rodrigods++18:05
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ayoungmarekd, marekd ... he'll go down in history!!!!18:06
* ayoung has a little bit of cabin fever 18:06
morganfainbergReminder March 5th is Feature proposal freeze18:06
marekdayoung: by creating the biggest black hole with help of OpenStack18:06
marekd:-)18:06
ayoungYou fool!  You will DESTROY US ALL!18:07
rodrigodslol18:07
morganfainbergmeaning, if the code is not ready to gate by march 5th, it isn't landing in Kilo w/o an exception on the mailing list (probably will include release manager ttx on if we'll accept it)18:07
marekdmorganfainberg: anyway, thanks for that opportunity, I will do my best go help you.18:07
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marekds/go/to/18:07
morganfainbergok18:07
morganfainbergon to the main agenda18:07
morganfainberg#topic Allow disabling of SQL extra attribute storage18:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Allow disabling of SQL extra attribute storage (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:07
morganfainberghenrynash o/18:07
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henrynashhmm…that was from kast week!18:08
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henrynashlast week, even18:08
morganfainbergoh18:08
morganfainberghmm.18:08
morganfainberg#undo18:08
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x93ffa90>18:08
dolphmrofl18:08
morganfainbergwas Email as a first class attribute also last week?18:08
gyeemarekd, your best? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3UQwyKrTtI18:08
henrynashyep18:08
morganfainbergok18:08
morganfainbergBarbican backend for Keystone Credential API18:08
morganfainberg?18:08
bknudsonlast week18:08
henrynashnot sure18:08
morganfainberghmm.18:09
morganfainbergwow i really spaced on cleaning up the agenda18:09
morganfainbergsorry18:09
henrynashheh, we getting through this agenda really quick this week18:09
morganfainbergok so #topic Spec Proposal Deadline and Feature Proposal Freeze for L-Cycle18:09
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morganfainberg#topic Spec Proposal Deadline and Feature Proposal Freeze for L-Cycle18:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Spec Proposal Deadline and Feature Proposal Freeze for L-Cycle (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:09
henrynashdefinitely not last week18:09
marekdgyee: you are right :(18:09
morganfainbergok so since we just passed SPF (spec proposal freeze)18:09
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morganfainberghow does everyone feel about the timing of it18:10
morganfainbergis m2 the right place for it, or should we be closer to m1 for the l-cycle18:10
ayoungI propose that we no longer propse specs on a per release basis18:10
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ayoung-2 of a spec to hold it is dumb...lets just put everything in backlog until it is passed18:10
gyeewe have a name for L yeah? Love18:10
ayoungthen move to the slot where it is going to be implemented afterwards18:10
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morganfainbergayoung, thats fine, but what would be the cut-off for moving things to a release18:11
ayoungSpec freeze, of course18:11
morganfainbergwhich is m2 a good time for it?18:11
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morganfainbergwhich was my original question ;)18:11
gyeeabout spec and wip code together?18:11
henrynashi think m2 is about right18:11
gyeeeasier to comprehend18:11
morganfainbergmy only concern with m2 is we're very compressed in milestone 318:11
ayoungMeh..I think we are arbitrarily giving ourselves deadlines18:11
morganfainbergand we have a lot of code to land18:11
rodrigodsm2 is close18:12
ayoungwe treat the specs as finished docs, and quibble over spellinggg18:12
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rodrigodswhat was the freeze used by nova? m1?18:12
morganfainbergayoung, as the person on the hook to manage what we're landing, i can say that is def. your view.18:12
dolphmayoung: the goal is to try and anticipate what is going to land, and help focus reviewers on a smaller subset of patches18:12
morganfainbergayoung, quibbling over the spelling should not be a -1 going forward, we're getting better about it but it's a slow move18:12
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morganfainbergrodrigods, yes it was m1 in nova afaik18:12
henrynashmorganfainberg: so when we had this discussion for K we said:18:13
morganfainbergi think M1 is probably a better place for SPF18:13
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morganfainberghenrynash, we didn't start on specs till post RC for K - which did drive that decision as well. it's why i'm asking now so we can give lots of lead18:13
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henrynashmorganfainberg: get specs in as soon as possible….m1 is best, m2 is latest….18:13
ayoungmorganfainberg, there are lots of artificialities here.  I'm not going to go off on a rant, but I think a spec should be submitted and approved in a single direcotry, and the milestone part should be accepting that code for a given release18:13
rodrigodskeeping M1 as SPF, we can focus first on have specs merged and than submit the code18:14
bknudsonwe've got 27 approved specs for K... not sure what all has been completed already & what's left to complete -- http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/keystone-specs/18:14
rodrigodsmidcycle would be a lot about coding18:14
bknudsonalso, some blueprints don't have specs.18:14
ayoungso, if a spec is not even approved by deadline, it certainly won't be allowed to be both approved and assigned to the deadline.18:14
henrynashmorganfainberg:……and if you leave it to m2 you rub this risk of it not getting ocde approved in time for m3….and that’s teh risk you run leaving the spec until m2....18:14
bknudsonso maybe should be looking at blueprints instead....18:14
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morganfainberghenrynash, exactly18:14
henrynashmorganfainberg: so I guess the question is, do we need to harden that advice....18:14
morganfainbergso keep in mind this convo, i'll ask again in a couple weeks near FPF18:14
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morganfainbergand we'll make a call then for L-cycle18:15
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morganfainbergayoung, and i'm fine with the change of how specs are proposed18:15
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ayoungI think what we have now is fine as far as the actual M2 freeze.  Keep the workflow stable and we'll work with it18:15
gyeelets see how this cycle goes first18:15
morganfainberggyee, this is just seeding the idea to keep everything in mind. no decisions are being made today18:15
morganfainbergok thats it for my topic.18:16
ayoungIf anything, I think we could use some better guidelines on what goes in to aspec, and what is necessary for one to be approved.18:16
morganfainberg#topic Open Discussion18:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:16
bknudson19 blueprints targeted to k-318:16
ayoungI'l like it to be something like this:18:16
bknudsonhttps://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/kilo-318:16
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ayoung1.  Idea is approved, but needs to be fleshed out;18:16
ayoung2.  Details are fleshed out and overall spec is approved18:16
gyeex.509 authz wip coming shortly18:16
ayoung3.  Spec is assigned to a specific release18:16
morganfainbergbknudson, and for the most part those have not been started or are in jepordy for not landing in k18:16
morganfainbergbknudson, afaict18:16
morganfainbergwith a few exceptions18:17
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dolphmayoung: aren't 1 and 2 just backlog, unless 3 is true?18:17
dolphmand 2 is a pre-req for 3?18:17
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ayoungdolphm, Yes, but I think the backlog is far more important than we treat it.18:18
gyeespec and wip code, wip code flush the details in the spec18:18
bknudsonI don't see what makes backlog important... what's important is getting features done and merged and working.18:18
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gyeeagile :)18:18
ayoungdolphm, you and I have  been doing thiws for 3+ years now, and we see just how fast the cycles pass.  I want to stop thinking in terms of "the next six months" and instead think in terms of "what should this look like"18:18
dolphmayoung: i don't know, i haven't experienced much value out of labeling something as "backlog" versus keeping it alive in gerrit until it's ready. maybe someone else has a different experience with backlog/?18:19
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ayoungnext 6 months is just "those features that are ready go on the bus"18:19
morganfainbergdolphm, i think the backlog makes sense from a "this is a good idea" and doesn't clog up gerrit18:19
lbragstadbacklog just seems like a way to get it off the main burner and worry about it later18:19
morganfainbergif we have things that aren't going to land this cycle.18:19
bknudsonthings change in 6 months so what we though was important 6 months ago maybe isn't anymore.18:19
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morganfainberghaivng a ton of -2s in gerrit is ugly18:19
dolphmmorganfainberg: gerrit solves that with -2's -> abandon18:19
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dolphmmorganfainberg: abandon cleans those up nicely :)18:19
morganfainbergdolphm, no the procedural -2 is crappy workflow18:20
morganfainbergthats all.18:20
ayoungApproved specs are really valuable in a org like ours where we have more and more people coming in to contribute, and the core needs to shift gears to supervisory mode18:20
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ayoungbknudson, then we can knock off a spec.18:20
morganfainbergayoung, i agree based upon internal HP stuff18:20
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morganfainberghaving an approved list of things to work on helps them jump in18:20
gyee++18:20
morganfainbergthey want to work on things, but the "get a spec approved" is a big barrier18:20
morganfainbergif we want some stuff in keystone, having a clear "this is approved to be worked on" is a benefit18:21
gyeebut we tend to argue alot over details in the spec18:21
morganfainbergit drastically lowers the barrier to entry18:21
lbragstad++18:21
gyeewhat's the right amount of details?18:21
morganfainberggyee, that is the important question.18:21
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gyeeI am fine with presenting the "idea" in the spec and follow on with a wip review18:22
gyeethen API spec change if needed18:22
ayoung++18:22
bknudsonwe already have a backlog: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/keystone-specs/specs/backlog/README.html18:22
ayoungso all -2ed specs we have righ now should be moved to backlog.18:23
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ayounglets just start with that18:23
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gyeeoh that's agile18:23
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morganfainbergbknudson, and we should use the backlog18:24
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morganfainberganything else?18:25
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samueldmqBlueprints for No-Spec Requires Status18:25
morganfainberganything not on the agenda that we want to cover today?18:25
morganfainbergsure18:25
morganfainberg#topic BPs that don't need Specs18:25
*** openstack changes topic to "BPs that don't need Specs (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:25
samueldmqok .. .so I'm proposing Backends' Tests Restructuration18:26
morganfainberg#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/backends-tests-restructuration18:26
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samueldmqyes, basically split test classes18:26
morganfainbergdstanek, o/ how does this work with the functional testing changes?18:26
samueldmqconsidering the available backends (resource, assignment, etc)18:26
bknudsonI'm not a fan of the _ naming that we use in the tests... use / instead.18:26
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bknudson(i.e., split into subdirectories)18:26
samueldmq#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/tests/test_backend.py18:26
morganfainbergbknudson, ++18:26
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dstanekmorganfainberg: i don't think it impacts it since they are not functional tests18:26
samueldmqthis one ^ has 5k + lines18:27
samueldmqdstanek, ++18:27
dstanekbknudson: ++18:27
morganfainbergdstanek, ok just wanted to be sure :)18:27
henrynashbknudson: yes, I though we might have backend/assignment/sql for example18:27
samueldmqbknudson, I agree.. I also don't like to have everything in the same directory18:27
bknudsondo we want to get further on functional testing before we accept refactoring unit tests?18:27
morganfainbergsamueldmq, the only request i make is don't split everything in one patch ;) do it in reviewable bites18:27
samueldmqbknudson, as we have the code structure18:27
dstanekmorganfainberg: samueldmq and i talked a little this morning about that topic18:27
bknudsonat least, move functional tests into functional and unit tests into unit/18:27
samueldmqmorganfainberg, sure!18:27
samueldmqmorganfainberg, I already started with test_v3_resource split18:28
bknudsonhenrynash: backend/assignment/sql would be great!18:28
samueldmq#link https://review.openstack.org/15408018:28
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henrynashsamueldmq: …although that is one go!18:28
dstanekthis change does present the opportunity to move them into the unit directory18:28
morganfainbergbknudson, i'll defer to you and dstanek on how you want to approach that (order of changing things)18:28
morganfainbergbut i think this bp doesn't need a spec18:29
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morganfainbergin fact... it feels like the poster child for not needing a spec18:29
henrynashsamueldmq: as now guardian of the <500 patch limit (hereby bestowed upon me by morganfainberg), let’s work together on this18:29
gyeemorganfainberg, don't split? have you look at this dependency chain? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/144703/18:29
ayoungI like....we've wnated this for a \while.  jamie lennox proposed it early on18:29
samueldmqhenrynash, ++18:29
morganfainbergso, yes we want this18:29
bknudsonI think dstanek (or someone) moving the existing tests into unit/ should be done first.18:29
bknudsonas part of functional testing.18:29
gyeehenrynash, sameldmq, s been doing dependency like everyday is tax day18:29
henrynashbknudson: yes, kind of agree18:29
samueldmqgyee, ++ :) I think I've splitted well there18:30
dstanekbknudson: i can do some, but i don't want to put too many crappy tests in there18:30
bknudsonall of our tests now are unit tests, so they all go there.18:30
dstaneki was making them better as i moved them over - but i can be less anal about that18:30
morganfainbergbknudson, so lets have dstanek work with samueldmq on the getting things moved18:30
bknudsondstanek: don't be anal!18:30
dstanekbknudson: i would disagree and say we have we little actual unit tests18:30
morganfainbergbknudson, as part of the functional test and this bp.18:30
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samueldmqbknudson, but they arent unit tests ... I'd argue they are integration, since they involve both manager + driver18:31
bknudsondstanek: I agree that they're not unit tests but they don't use devstack.18:31
morganfainbergbefore we devolve too far into ordering18:31
dstanekbknudson: yes, that's true18:31
morganfainbergdo we want a spec for this? I say no a spec is not needed18:31
samueldmqdstanek, bknudson they're integration tests18:31
morganfainberganyone view differently18:31
bknudsonwell, I'd prefer to not use _ for the test names18:32
bknudsonso I don't like the blueprint as is.18:32
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bknudson_ for the test filenames.18:32
morganfainbergbknudson, we can not approve the BP till it's ready18:32
samueldmqbknudson, we can split and then restructure in directories (as this would involve more files than involved in this patch)18:32
morganfainbergbut does it need a spec.18:32
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morganfainbergi would say no.18:32
dstaneki'd rather see something more like keystone.tests.unit.backends.identity18:32
morganfainbergand i agree don't use _ for filenames18:32
bknudsondoesn't affect the api so I'm fine with no spec.18:33
morganfainberganyone really want a spec here?18:33
lbragstad++ it would be nice to have a tree structure for our tests18:33
gyeeno18:33
morganfainberggoing once18:33
dstaneknope18:33
morganfainbergtwice...18:33
henrynashno18:33
morganfainbergno spec18:33
gyeedon't want spec either18:33
samueldmqnice! thanks :)18:33
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morganfainbergbut please work to make things better in the bp / clear before it is approved18:33
gyeespec is needed whenever we mock around with any pubic interfacing stuff right?18:34
samueldmqok, will discuss in the channel to see what will be addressed in this bp (directories ?, etc) thanks18:34
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bknudsonif there's a change to the identity or extension API then I'd expect a spec.18:34
morganfainbergbknudson, ++18:34
topolmakes sense!18:34
dolphmbknudson: for sure18:34
gyeenot just API, any public facing stuff18:34
bknudsonconfig options?18:35
gyeeincluding backend interfaces18:35
dolphmgyee: ++ for anything that directly impacts users18:35
morganfainbergbknudson, ideally yes18:35
dolphm / deployers18:35
samueldmqit depends, functional testing doesnt change identity apis, and we needed a spec :)18:35
bknudsonI don't think we even have a section in the spec to consider backend interfaces.18:35
gyeebknudson, we need to18:35
gyeevendor have their own backend drivers18:36
morganfainbergsamueldmq, that is a bit different, deployers might use the functional testing against a live cloud.18:36
morganfainbergsamueldmq, it's also drastically changing how we test18:36
bknudsongyee: propose a spec!18:36
gyeedamn straight18:36
samueldmqmorganfainberg, ++18:36
bknudsonI think we wanted some initial docs for functional testing, too.18:36
morganfainbergbknudson, ++ yes18:36
samueldmqmorganfainberg, yes, that should be an exception18:36
dstaneksamueldmq: that's also a pretty big effort - a spec is a great way to clarify things18:36
bknudsonalso, just because we don't require a spec doesn't mean one can't be written up.18:37
morganfainbergsamueldmq, some of these cases we didn't ask for a spec, the proposer said "i'll do a spec" because it made it easier to explain things18:37
samueldmqdstanek, I agree, was just pointing out that 'identity changes' requires a spec is true18:37
henrynashbknudson: ++ in the past I’ve written one up to ensure everyone understood the impact18:37
samueldmqdstanek, but not all specs are there because they change identity api18:37
bknudsonbtw - proposed a spec to keystoneclient for deprecations -- https://review.openstack.org/#/c/153881/18:38
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samueldmqmorganfainberg, hmm .. ok makes sense18:38
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gyeebknudson, good one!18:38
bknudsona spec for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/backends-tests-restructuration would be nice, but I'm fine with not requiring one.18:39
morganfainbergok. so that covers those specs.18:40
morganfainbergerm bps18:40
morganfainbergsince we don't have anything else on the agenda18:40
morganfainbergwe're going to call the meeting done 20 minutes early18:40
morganfainbergplease spend 20 mins and review code :)18:40
rodrigodsfirst time ever18:40
henrynashoh boy!18:40
raildohaha18:40
dolphm\o/18:41
morganfainbergsince you've already set aside this time:)18:41
morganfainberg#endmeeting18:41
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:41
henrynashncie one!18:41
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb 10 18:41:07 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:41
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-10-18.00.html18:41
dolphmmorganfainberg: well played18:41
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-10-18.00.txt18:41
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-10-18.00.log.html18:41
morganfainberg^_^18:41
morganfainberglook infra doesn't need to wait for us to clear out of the channel for a chance18:41
morganfainbergchange*18:41
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reedI wrote type here18:56
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jeblairwhat?  we could have started EARLY?19:00
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fungii already did19:00
morganfainbergjeblair, ahaha19:00
fungioh, you mean the meeting19:00
fungi;)19:00
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jeblair#startmeeting infra19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb 10 19:01:05 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
mrmartino/19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:01
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anteayapresent19:01
gemao/19:01
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jheskethHowdy19:01
mrmartino/19:01
jeblair#link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:01
krtayloro/19:01
neillco/19:01
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ianwo/19:01
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pleia2o/19:01
jeblair#link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-03-19.01.html19:01
tchaypoO/19:01
jeblair#topic  Actions from last meeting19:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
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jeblairpleia2 draft summary email about virtual sprints19:01
nibalizero/19:01
jeblairand she sent it too!19:02
anteayaI saw it19:02
fungiit was a great read19:02
anteayait was very good19:02
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jeblairpleia2: thank you!19:02
jhesketh+119:02
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pleia2ttx's respons was good too, these sprints are good for well-defined tasks19:02
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anteayayes19:02
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fungiopenstack needs more well-defined tasks19:02
pleia2which I think some teams struggle with, I think the friday hack day at summit really helped us solidify some things19:02
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anteayasome teams struggle with them because it isn't until they all get in the same room they finally realize they agree19:03
anteayawhen for 4 months they were convinced they didn't19:03
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jeblair#topic  New infra-core team member19:04
*** openstack changes topic to "New infra-core team member (Meeting topic: infra)"19:04
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fungiso much suspense19:04
jeblairpleia2 will find that she has some extra buttons in gerrit now :)19:04
anteayawoooo19:04
anteayacongratulations pleia219:04
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pleia2thanks everyone!19:04
krtaylorcongrats!19:04
nibalizergratz!19:04
pleia2I'll try not to break openstack19:04
jeblairpleia2: that part's covered19:05
fungijust fix whatever you break19:05
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fungiit's a good day if i don't fix more than i break19:05
fungier, if i do19:05
fungisomething19:05
pleia2fungi: hehe, noted19:05
mrmartin:)19:05
jheskethpleia2: congrats :-)19:05
jeblairpleia2: so now, you get to propose your own addition to infra-root by changing some stuff in puppet19:05
jeblairpleia2: and to be honest, i don't even know where that lives anymore19:05
jeblairpleia2: so good luck! :)19:06
anteayahahaha19:06
fungileft as an exercise for the reader19:06
pleia2fungi pointed me in the right direction earlier19:06
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pleia2so I'll take care of that soon, thanks19:06
jeblairthank you!19:06
mordredo/19:06
jeblair#topic  Priority Efforts (Swift logs)19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Swift logs) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:06
mordred(sorry late)19:06
timrco/19:07
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jheskethSo logs are ticking along.. I think our current challenge is looking into why they take ~5-10min for devstack logs19:07
jheskethit's most likely bandwidth19:07
jheskethpossibly when coming from hpcloud19:07
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fungimight be good to compare some samples between providers19:07
jheskethbut other than that, I think we can start to move some other jobs across19:08
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jheskethespecially ones with smaller log sets19:08
anteayado we have any of those?19:08
jeblairbut even when using scp, the data goes from node(hpcloud) -> jenkins master(rax) -> static.o.o(rax)19:08
jheskethwell smaller than devstack isn't hard as you don't have all the various service logs19:08
anteayafair enough19:08
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yolandahi19:09
jheskethjeblair: to be honest, I haven't compared how long the scp takes19:09
jheskethprobably something worth poking at19:09
jeblairyeah19:09
zaroo/19:09
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jheskethso a couple of actions for me there (compare times + move more jobs over)19:09
jeblair#action jhesketh look into log copying times19:10
jeblair#action jhesketh move more jobs over19:10
jheskethcheers :-)19:10
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jeblairjhesketh: are still doing scp + swift?19:10
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jeblairif so, are we ready to remove scp from any?19:10
jheskethjeblair: for devstack, yes. I think it's only turned off for a set of project-config jobs19:10
jeblairokay, so we can probably keep doing that for a little bit until we're happy with the timing19:11
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jheskethjeblair: I suspect so, but maybe we need to get somebody who works closely with devstack logs to do some user acceptability testing?19:11
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jhesketh(eg sdague or jogo)19:11
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jeblairjhesketh: aren't we doing swift-first already?19:12
* sdague pops up?19:12
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jeblairjhesketh: so, in other words, acceptance testing is already in progress? :)19:12
jheskethjeblair: nope, disk-first19:12
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jeblairoooh19:12
jeblairok19:12
jheskethwhich is dictated by apache serving its indexes19:12
jeblairjhesketh: can you dig up a log set for sdague to look at?19:12
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sdagueyep, happy to19:13
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jeblair#action sdague look at devstack swift logs for usability19:13
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jeblairjhesketh, sdague: thanks19:14
jeblair#topic  Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB)19:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:14
mordredstabstabstab19:14
mordredSO19:14
mordredI now have ubuntu working19:14
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mordredam battling centos - not because we need centos - but because it's a thing we have in servers that uses systemd and I figure we should solve systemd before declaring victory19:15
jheskethwill do, thanks sdague19:15
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mordredalthough it turns out that centos7 has a) old version of systemd and b) not consistent systemd19:16
* mordred cries19:16
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* greghaynes hands mordred a fedora19:16
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ianwmordred: if you want to sync me up with some of the details later, i can help out19:17
mordredanywho - I'm expecting to have that all sorted today so that I can go back to making the nodepool patch19:17
mordredianw: oooh19:17
mordredianw: I will do that19:17
mordredianw: I'm assuming you grok all the systemds19:17
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fungii haven't set aside time to get very far with collapsing bare and devstack image types together nor job run-time database configuration so we can stop needing to have a dib solution for that part. hopefully later this week will be better than last was19:18
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jeblair#action mordred fix the systemd problem19:19
anteayaoptimist19:19
jeblair(ha!)19:19
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jeblair#action fungi collapse image types19:19
fungioptimism all around!19:20
jeblair:)19:20
jeblairanything else nodepool dibby?19:20
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mordreduhm ... things that don't do DHCP are bonghits?19:20
fungiclarkb may have things, but he's occupied19:20
clarkbjust my bugfix for image update change19:21
jeblairany reviews need attention?19:21
clarkbaccomodates jeblairs image build fix19:21
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ianwthere are still outstanding reviews for f21 image builds19:22
ianwhttps://review.openstack.org/14090119:22
ianwhttps://review.openstack.org/13825019:22
ianwboth were going in but hit merge conficts19:22
ianwconflicts19:22
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jeblairclarkb: i'm not sure which you're talking about?19:23
jeblairoh19:23
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151749/19:23
jeblairthat one?19:23
jeblair"Better image checking in update_image command"19:23
clarkbyes19:23
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clarkbtha ks19:23
jeblairasselin_: had a comment on that19:24
jeblairbut yeah, we should take a look at that one19:24
asselin_o/19:24
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts ( Migration to Zanata )19:24
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts ( Migration to Zanata ) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:24
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* anteaya admires asselin_'s useful reviews19:25
asselin_anteaya, thanks19:25
pleia2so mrmartin has been helping me get my module into shape19:25
pleia2https://review.openstack.org/#/c/147947/19:26
pleia2helping dependencies make more sense (depending on services vs files for installation) and doing tests in vagrant19:26
mrmartinneeds some work on zanata puppet modules, I set this up in vagrant, and had some dep problems that pleia2 solved19:26
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anteayapleia2: doing local testing in vagrant?19:27
mrmartinI allocate some time this week and try to find out why the wildfly zanata app deplyoment fails19:27
pleia2anteaya: mrmartin is, I'm using some snapshotted VMs19:27
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anteayawhy do you need vagrant if you are using vms?19:27
pleia2anteaya: we're both testing in our own ways19:28
anteayasorry if this was discussed before and I missed it in backscroll19:28
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pleia2he's using vagrant, I'm using VMs19:28
anteayaoh sorry19:28
mrmartindouble-check19:28
mrmartin:)19:28
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mrmartinvagrant launching vm(s) anyway.19:28
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/147947/19:29
pleia2so progress is being made, not as fast as I'd like, but java is clunky19:29
jeblairpleia2, mrmartin: groovy, thanks!19:29
jeblair#topic  Upgrading Gerrit (zaro)19:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Upgrading Gerrit (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:30
zarook.  i think i have managed to fix the testing stack of review-dev, zuul-dev, and jenkins-dev19:30
zaroall things working now, so will be easier to test19:31
zaroreview-dev.o.o is on trusty and on Gerrit 2.9.419:31
clarkbdb is still a problem?19:31
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zaroSo if anybody wants to test anything do it there.19:31
zaroclarkb: yes, the issue about db disconnect is still a aproblem.  but it's also in prod19:31
jeblairzaro: did you find that we need 2.10 for wip plugin?19:32
jeblairwell, at least, we can't prove that it isn't in prod19:32
jeblairand when we run all the same versions of things in dev, it happens19:32
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jeblairbut of course the trove db server is actually different19:32
zarojeblair: no, wip plugin will be a ways out.  it needs fixes from master which won't show up unil 2.1119:32
fungiright, zaro was able to reproduce the problem with the ubuntu and gerrit versions we're running in prod19:32
zarounil/until19:32
jeblair#info WIP requires >= 2.1119:33
jeblair#undo19:33
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Info object at 0x99d7590>19:33
jeblair#info WIP plugin requires >= 2.1119:33
fungiclarkb: though it does seem suspiciously similar to the db problem we were seeing with paste.o.o19:33
clarkbfungi ya19:33
clarkbI think the trove dbs are partially to blame19:33
* anteaya clicks the review-dev storyboard link in the commit message19:34
jeblairi verified that the mysql timeout values are the default on the review-dev trove instance19:34
jeblairso it's at least not that kind of misconfiguration19:34
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zaroso i just finished validating zuul pipelines and the launchpad integration.19:34
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zarowill probably see if there's anything to check in Gerrit ACLs next.19:35
anteayazaro I don't see the ability to change the topic in the gui19:35
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jeblairzaro: would you be willing to spend some time with the trove folks and see if there's something they can do?19:36
zarojeblair: yes, most definatlye19:36
fungianteaya: i thought we discovered that only change owners and gerrit admins could do in-ui topic edits?19:36
zaroi'll ask them to help debug19:36
jeblairzaro: cool, thanks19:36
anteayafungi: perhaps I don't have the permissions then19:36
mordrediccha works on trove at rax now - might be a good contact too19:36
zaroanteaya: i don't think that's availabe in old screen UI, not even on review.o.o19:37
anteayamordred: not any more19:37
jeblair#action zaro to chat with trove folks about review-dev db problems19:37
mordredanteaya: oh1 well, don't listen to me19:37
anteayamordred: rax decided they can only work on trove in their own time19:37
anteayamordred: so only when she has time after work now19:37
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zaroi'm going to test prod db migration next.19:38
zaroSo about moving review.o.o to trusty?19:39
zaroanybody against that?  if not should we schedule something?19:39
anteayazaro: we need to do that to upgrade?19:39
zaroyes19:39
clarkbno opposition from me on that19:39
jheskethsounds good to me19:39
anteayaI'm for scheduling something the week before summit like we did last year19:39
anteayaor will this be less involved?19:40
zaroanteaya: this is why #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151368/19:40
jeblairzaro: so you want to do os upgrade first, then gerrit upgrade?  or both together?19:40
anteayabouncy castle again19:40
zarobest to do OS upgrade first19:40
jeblairright, so we didn't get that far with this last week, but let's try again19:41
jeblairnothing before feb 2819:41
clarkbI know one problem is every time we change IP corps need to update firewall rules19:41
clarkbwe still cant floating ip in rax right?19:42
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jeblairhow is feb 28, mar 7, mar 21?19:42
jeblairalso, see: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kilo_Release_Schedule19:42
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anteayacan I vote for may 7th?19:43
clarkbjeblair all should worj for me19:43
pleia2I'm around all those days19:43
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fungiclarkb: that sounds to me like a reason to do this ~monthly19:44
mordredfungi: ++19:44
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mordredmaybe they'd learn that outbound blocking is crazypants19:44
fungieventually they'll get tired of having to maintain special egress rules for that port19:44
clarkbha19:44
clarkband https does work fwiw19:44
zaroall are good with me as well.  i'm partial to feb 28.19:44
jeblairto anteaya's point.  do we want to wait until after the release?19:45
clarkbanteaya it should be very low impact19:45
anteayashould and is can be miles apart19:45
clarkbspin up new node side by side, easy switch, easy fallback19:45
anteayaif there is a compleling reason to do it before may I'm all ears19:45
clarkbanteaya well I have done this before and it was easy (lucid to precisr)19:45
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anteayano blocking from corp firewalls?19:46
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anteayano contributors unable to work?19:46
anteayahappy to be wrong19:46
jeblairanteaya: we will announce it well in advance, with the new ip.19:46
clarkbthere will likely be blocking on port 29418 they can use httpa19:46
clarkb*https19:46
anteayaokay if I am in the minority so be it19:46
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fungithe biggest issue is probably going to be finding a slow enough week at this point in the cycle that having several hours of downtime won't severely impact development momentum so we can do the maintenance carefully and if necessary roll back19:46
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anteayafungi: yes19:47
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* krtaylor wonders if it will impact some third party ci systems19:47
jeblairso this feb 28 is the saturday before feature proposal freeze.  the week following is likely to be busy19:47
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asselin_clarkb, zuul doesn't https19:48
jeblairi'm not certain that's a reason not to do it.19:48
fungikrtaylor: some may need a restart to reconnect to redo dns resolution and reconnect to the new ip address, yes19:48
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* fungi had redundant words in that last sentence19:48
asselin_we'll need to have firewalls updated for thirdparty ci19:48
krtaylorpossibly, yes19:49
krtaylorso we should spread the event happening far and wide19:49
clarkbasselin_ or use a proxy19:49
krtaylorand there will still be questions :)19:49
jeblairkrtaylor: we always do :)19:49
zaroohh, i forgot.  the Toggle CI button doesn't work.  is anyone willing to take a look at that?  i've already took a quick look but i don't know js so it's not apparent to me how it even works.19:49
mordredjeblair: for sake of information - I believe last time we swapped it took between 1 and 2 months to get the egress rules changed at HP19:50
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asselin_clarkb, not sure how. last time nothing worked for zuul. this was last summer.19:50
jeblairmordred: i hope it goes faster this time.19:50
mordredjeblair: I do not believe that's possible19:50
asselin_mordred, and they fat-fingered the rule for my site, so it took even longer19:50
fungiasselin_: you'll only need firewalls updated if your firewalls are for some reason configured to block _outbound_ connections from your systems19:50
mordredjeblair: it's a change to global security rules which goes through an IT process19:50
jeblairto be clear, egress filtering is a bad idea.  it's particularly bad for systems that rely on connecting to a system that runs in _a public cloud_19:50
mordredyes. this is all true19:50
asselin_fungi, yes, we're blocked on outbound :(19:51
jeblairso, i think what we can do is try to disseminate the information as soon as possible19:51
mordredI'm merely reporting on the state of the world for at least one of our constituencies19:51
jeblairmordred: thank you19:51
mrmartinkeep the old instance and ip and redirect the traffic with haproxy to the new one19:51
mrmartinso don't need to change the ip19:51
mrmartinor you can keep it as a backup19:51
jeblairbut we can not let this be a blocker19:51
clarkbasselin_: you would likely need to do a port fowrad through a SOCKS proxy19:52
clarkbasselin_: it should just work once you get it set up19:52
krtaylorjeblair, agreed, speaking for my system anyway, anytime is as bad as any other19:52
jeblairmrmartin: that may cause its own problems and greatly increase the complexity19:52
clarkbmrmartin: no then we still have an old precise box around19:52
tchaypothis is where we all talk about some kind of ha proxy as a service thingy19:52
clarkband it increases the number of places where things can break as jeblair points out19:52
fungimrmartin: if we do that, we'll either end up maintaining it indefinitely or ~50% of the people who are going to be impacted simply won't find out until we eventually take down the proxy19:52
clarkbtchaypo: if only such proxy services were configurable in ways that made them useful :)19:52
mrmartinok, but you can give a 2 month grace period, and everybody can migrate19:53
mrmartinpoor-man's floating ip19:53
fungion the up side, it only increases places where things can break for people who are stuck behind egress filters managed by people who need far too long to update them19:54
jeblairso who's around on feb 28?19:54
anteayaI can be19:54
clarkbjeblair: me19:54
mordredI kinda think we should go the "wait longer" route so that we can spin up the new box and get the new IP info out to our various 3rd party testing folks and the corporations with idiotic network policies19:54
zarojeblair: me19:54
jeblairmordred: i believe that we can do that by the end of this week and provide 2 weeks of notice.19:54
mordredok. I think that we know fora  fact that will break a large portion of our user base19:55
tchaypohow do we get the new ip?19:55
fungii'm out of town from the 25th to the 6th but don't let my absence stop you19:55
jeblairtchaypo: we will send an email announcement19:55
tchayporephrase19:55
jeblairmordred: how much notice do you want to provide?19:55
tchaypohow does the infra team find out the new ip to put in the email?19:55
mordredI think 2 months is probably the amount of time HP and IBM and Cisco are all liekly to need19:55
jeblairtchaypo: we spin up the server19:55
mrmartintchaypo: by starting the new server.19:56
jeblairmordred: that seems excessive19:56
mordredwhich is sad19:56
mordredand they should be ashamed19:56
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krtaylornot sure we'd need 2 months, but 2 weeks is tight also19:56
mordredbut given the number of corporate contributors we have AND the number of 3rd party testing rigs taht exist - even though this is almost as broken as rackspace's not-dhcp - it is what it is19:56
fungifor third-party ci specifically i guess, since as clarkb points out everything besides stream-events should work fine via https api19:56
mordredfungi: yah - but 3rd party without streamevents is going to be kinda tough19:57
fungiyep19:57
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anteayatime check19:57
mrmartinask.o.o19:57
sdaguekrtaylor: you need an egress change to connect to zuul? I was pretty sure the IBM corp network should just allow that19:57
jeblairthat puts us at mordred: that puts us at march 21.19:57
clarkbfungi: ya https is how people are getting around china's great firewall now19:58
jeblairanteaya, mrmartin: i think we're going to have to defer19:58
clarkbfungi: so we know it works for the most part19:58
asselin_I remember looking at the zuul code, and we may be about to update the socket it opents  with a proxy configuration19:58
anteayajeblair: looks like it19:58
clarkbasselin_: you just configure localhost:poxy_port as the gerrit location19:58
mordredjeblair: I'm around and available both days, fwiw19:58
krtaylorI agree with fungi 's assessment though, ~50 arent paying attention, 2 weeks should be enough to get the word out19:58
mordredand will help either day we choose19:58
krtaylorsdague, yes, no egress needed for us19:58
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clarkbwe could also put gerrit ssh on port 2219:59
fungii am happy to spin up the new server as soon as this meeting ends if someone wants to work on drafting an announcement i can plug the ip addresses into19:59
clarkbbut  Ithink we should only do that if we can listen on 29418 as well19:59
jeblairasselin_: have you worked through this before?  how long did it take?19:59
krtaylorfungi, will announce in third-party meetings20:00
jeblairokay, we'll continue this in the infra channel20:00
jeblairthanks all20:00
jeblair#endmeeting20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb 10 20:00:26 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
asselin_jeblair, cody-somerville did the initial request. Once it was done, it took another month before it got fixed for my site20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-10-19.01.html20:00
jheskethcheers!20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-10-19.01.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-10-19.01.log.html20:00
fungiclarkb: i have a feeling corps who are blocking egress are particularly blocking egress for 22/tcp. ssh out of your corporate castle is dangerous stuff after all20:00
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mordredfungi: nope20:00
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mordredfungi: outbound 22 is wide open :)20:00
* fungi laughs20:00
mordredyah20:00
jeblairthen that makes even less sense20:00
clarkbfungi: yes its part of the ridiculous irony here20:00
mordredit's basically just idiots20:01
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mordredthere is NO SENSE - it provides no value other than perpetuating inertia20:01
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anteayainertia is power didn't you know20:01
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* anteaya wonders where ttx is20:02
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ttxOh you finished20:02
ttxdidn't notice it20:02
anteayawe did20:02
reed:)20:02
ttxAnyone here for the TC meeting ?20:02
dhellmanno/20:02
redroboto/20:02
mikalI might come20:02
annegentleholla20:02
ttxwas a bit busy with that L poll20:02
markmcclaino20:02
markmcclaino/20:03
anteayathe first was like your head sticking up over a wall20:03
ttxrussellb, jgriffith, mordred, devananda, vishy, jeblair, jaypipes, sdague : around ?20:03
sdagueo/20:03
jeblairo/20:03
markmcclainanteaya: haha20:03
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb 10 20:03:37 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:03
russellbo/20:03
ttxOur agenda for today:20:03
* reed drumrolls20:03
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* sarob lurking20:03
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:03
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ttx#topic L naming results20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "L naming results (Meeting topic: tc)"20:04
* devananda lurks20:04
mordredo/20:04
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ttxI closed the poll a couple minutes ago20:04
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ttxIt's a *very* close call between Lizard and Liberty.20:04
ttxSo close I actually have to feed the ballots into a proper Condorcet poll to get the Condorcet winner20:04
russellbi'm surprised20:04
russellbi thought it'd be one of the other 220:04
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markmcclainyeah.. same20:04
ttxI guess I should ask... Condorcet sounds like a good way to tell the winner, right ?20:04
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sdaguettx: +120:05
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mikalWorks for me20:05
russellbsure, why not20:05
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anteayaif you didn't like what survey monkey gave you20:05
reedunless the winner is liberty that way :)20:05
annegentlelol reed20:05
ttxWell, surveymonkey goves me a % of each ranking20:05
ttxwhich doesn't tell condorcet preference20:05
anteayanot very helpful20:05
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ttxOK, so the winner is:20:05
sdagueI think the results of the poll are an indication that the TC's ideas on naming often veer wildly from what the community likes :)20:05
ttx#link http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/results.pl?id=E_dc5ea66e94acc07a20:05
ttxsorry, anderstj20:06
ttxerr anteaya20:06
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jaypipespoo.20:06
anteayashows how much folks know about canada I guess20:06
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* dhellmann returns all of the stuffed lizards he ordered online20:06
ttxnot my choice either20:06
russellbit'll do20:07
anteayadhellmann: send them to me20:07
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ttxbut then 1474 votes is also more than previous polls I think20:07
* ttx checks20:07
ttxyeah, 908 replies for K20:07
jeblairvote early, vote often20:07
anteayaapparently20:08
ttxand 748 for J20:08
jbrycewell the community grows and people did sort of make a bigger deal out of this one so the increased visibility is not surprising20:08
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ttxAnyway, Liberty it is20:08
ttxI guess.20:08
russellbheh20:09
sdagueweren't we previously concerned by low voter turn out? seems odd to complain about high turn out for this just because it's none of our first choices20:09
* anteaya dons her green dress and looks for a crown and torch20:09
ttxsdague: agreed20:09
dhellmannanteaya: I was going to exchange them for novelty handcuffs20:09
jeblairwho's complaining?20:09
ttx#topic Project structure reform20:09
anteayadhellmann: that's all you then20:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Project structure reform (Meeting topic: tc)"20:09
anteayadhellmann: I'm out20:09
sdaguejeblair: jaypipes said poo :)20:09
jeblairhaha20:09
dhellmannanteaya: foam crowns?20:09
russellbnice20:09
ttxjeblair: I'm not. Can't win every time :)20:10
anteayadhellmann: never tried them20:10
ttx* Adds service to indicate a user-readable and understandable name (https://review.openstack.org/150030)20:10
ttxSo... This looks ready, i'll approve it when it reaches 7 YES (unless a -1 is posted that we should discuss)20:10
ttxone more needed20:10
ttx* Make oslo requirement more vague (https://review.openstack.org/152748)20:10
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ttxSo I like that we speak in more general terms here20:10
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ttxthat keeps a pretty subjective item on the list, but looks like we are ok with that20:11
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russellbit could mention oslo as a clear example, but whatever, it's fine20:11
jeblairit's in a "should"20:11
jeblairi think its main purpose is to communicate intent and desire anyway20:11
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ttxone more +1 needed and I'll approve it (starting tomorrow morning)20:12
britthouserLiberty Bell?20:12
britthousertoo patriotic?20:12
ttxI'll take a picture while in PHL20:12
ttx* New project teams requests20:12
ttxOK, so with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145740/14 merged last week we formally have migrated to the new world order20:13
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ttxeven if we didn't really publicize it that much yet20:13
ttxI updated the wiki to match it and mention the new terminology and processes20:13
russellbthough we haven't exactly clarified the bar for entry though right?20:13
dhellmannwe stopped blogging about these meetings this cycle20:13
ttxSo my question to you all is: are we ready to accept new project teams requests, starting now ?20:13
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ttxI was pinged by a few teams about when the new process would be open for applications20:13
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russellboh nevermind20:14
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ttxPersonally I think we can start getting applications, and refine the rules as we go20:14
ttxI tentatively described the new process at:20:14
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/NewProjectTeams20:14
ttxif you want to check it out.20:14
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ttxIf we feel we are open for business, I can write a blogpost about the new world order (including the transition from Programs to Project Teams).20:15
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russellbdon't want to put that process in governance repo?20:15
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vishyo/ sorry i’m late20:15
anteayarussellb: +20:15
ttxrussellb: it's mostly a pointer to governance20:15
ttxreplacing old wiki pages20:15
sarobif you want a test run, im happy to push the first patch20:15
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ttxThoughts ? Too early ? Bring it on ?20:16
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devanandattx: a trickle at first would be good to test the process, iterate to learn before the summit20:16
markmcclainhow many folks have inquired…should we have a slow start to the process?20:16
dhellmannas long as we're clear that the process for evaluating proposals is still being worked out, and that may mean a lot of back-and-forth, I think having a few concrete requests would be a good thing20:16
devanandattx: as I'm sure we'll have a lot of questions from folks by then20:16
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ttxmarkmcclain: the security group (ossg) asked20:16
devanandadhellmann: ++20:17
markmcclainif we have 1-2 willing to work with us then I think it makes sense20:17
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mikalAgreed20:17
ttx+ a few pings about "when" from a couple stackforge projects20:17
sdaguepersonally, I'd like to get a bit more of the test / devstack unwind done with existing projects so new projects have a better pattern for integrating into those parts. But I won't hold if up if everyone else wants to move forward.20:18
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ttxwe can build up a queue and I can mention in that blogpost that we are slowly ramping up20:18
ttxto set the right expectations delay-wise20:19
fungiossg is probably an easy one to test the waters because it's less repo-oriented and more of a horizontal effort, but conversely that means it won't exercise much of the process which will be heavily used later20:19
russellbi'm fine with starting now, but i might not publicize it much just yet20:19
annegentleyeah set the timing expectations clearly20:19
annegentleand then it's fine to start20:19
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ttxrussellb: not publicizing is a two-edged sword20:19
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ttxI haven't communicated more about it because i wanted to have that discussion with all of you before20:19
ttxbut I think we should20:19
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russellbor could at least coordinate among ourselves which ones to review first to test the process20:20
russellbinstead of thrashing around on 15 at once20:20
dhellmannyeah, I don't think it's fair to just allow projects that have asked ttx about it. We just need to make clear that we're going to review requests one at a time until we have the process down.20:20
russellbwfm20:20
dhellmannwe can start with ossg and then review the others in the order they are submitted, for example20:20
ttxwfm too20:20
jaypipeswfm 320:20
ttxright, saying we won't process them in parallel20:20
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ttxbonus points to projects following the TC meeting20:21
sdaguealso, some might be much easier than others20:21
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lsellI think it would be helpful to lock down and communicate a few more details about the end state / vision / tagging system, etc. before accepting new projects. I think communicating in pieces and starting to accept applications may be confusing20:21
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dhellmannsdague: true, but maybe we should do a couple of hard ones early20:21
sdagueI think the more a project needs resources or info from horizontal teams it's ok to delay20:21
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sdaguedhellmann: yeh, my concern is hard ones are probably ones that horiz teams aren't quite ready for externalized support on20:22
russellb56426120:22
dhellmannsdague: sure, and that's good feedback and a reasonable outcome is to say "we're not ready to handle you yet" which signals to other projects in a similar state20:22
ttxsomeone turned russellb in a number station20:22
russellbdamn yubikey :)20:22
annegentleare we going to overload our focus on tagging solutions though?20:22
dhellmannsdague: we don't have to *approve* the proposals, just review them20:22
sdaguedhellmann: yep20:22
ttxannegentle: i don't think so20:23
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annegentlettx: tell me more20:23
sdagueI think as long as we're clear to folks that we need to unit test this process, so it maybe be slow to start, it's fine20:23
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dhellmannsdague: ++20:23
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annegentleso is this gate opening act a way to get tags started? (perhaps I'm just missing something)20:23
ttxannegentle: like I said before, I expect most tags maintenance to be delegated. For example, once we define coordinated-release, compatible-release etc. tags I expect maintenance to be delegated to release management team20:24
dhellmannannegentle: we're just talking about new projects, right? I don't think we need tags  for that20:24
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russellbproject applications, right20:24
russellbto get on "the list"20:24
dhellmannrussellb: that's The List (tm)20:24
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russellbgot it :)20:24
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ttxanything more on that before we move on to future release naming process ?20:25
annegentleok so this is for new projects, who are applying without knowing much more than "I want to be an OpenStack Project Team and we're done being a Workgroup"20:25
ttxannegentle: right20:26
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ttxI want my work to be recognized as a part of OpenStack20:26
annegentleokay20:26
annegentlettx: oh one more thing20:26
mordredI want to recognize people's work20:26
annegentlesorry need to type faster.20:27
ttxnow you sound like Columbo20:27
annegentleso they still need to meet the requirements from http://governance.openstack.org/reference/new-projects-requirements.html20:27
ttxannegentle: we may realize that this page is a bit too much geared toward projects -as -in - stackforge projects20:28
ttxand does not contain enough info for new horizontal teams like translations / OSSG20:28
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ttxbut I'm fine with updating it as we go20:28
annegentleok20:28
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lselljust to confirm, there will no longer be projects in incubation?20:29
ttxlsell: there already is no longer projects in incubation20:29
ttxthere are just some projects still in a integrated-release.20:29
ttxand "other" projects20:29
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ttxand we'll split integrated-release into more meaningful and defined bits20:30
ttxlike actually-released-together, actually-tested-together etc20:30
annegentleso that still has me worried20:30
ttxOK, let's move on...20:30
russellbit's going to get a lot more confusing :)20:30
ttxrussellb: but more precise.20:31
annegentlethe "gate opening prior to tag definition" :)20:31
jbryceas dhellmann pointed out, the post-meeting tc blogging has kind of slowed down and i think there’s still quite a bit of mass confusion out there about the current state of all of this. with 145740 getting merged, it’s probably a good time to try to communicate the purpose and state. especially if new projects are going to start through the process20:31
mordredrussellb: nope. we're going to redefine confusing as not-confusing20:31
russellbhopefully we can mitigate that to some degree ...20:31
russellbmordred: oh, neat20:31
ttxannegentle: it's not very different from the previous situation20:31
sarobjbryce: +120:31
ttx#action ttx to write about the t20:32
annegentlettx: yeah the previous wasn't a good world either, so looking for a way to take lessons learned20:32
ttxarr20:32
annegentlepirate!20:32
* mordred wants to read the blog about the t20:32
ttx#action ttx to write about the transition to project teams, with due setting of expectations on how fast we'll process applications20:32
* jbryce wants to read the blog about the upper T20:32
ttxok, moving on20:32
* sarob shiver me timbers upper T20:33
ttx#topic M+ Release naming process20:33
*** openstack changes topic to "M+ Release naming process (Meeting topic: tc)"20:33
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/15060420:33
ttxSince last week Lauren commented with suggestions.20:33
ttxLike I said last week, I share the concern with running a public poll with options we strike down after the vote20:33
ttxMy strawman would be like this: the TC checks candidate names for validity against naming rules, then runs a quick Condorcet poll among TC members to grossly rank all the options20:33
ttxthen a trademark search is run to select the first 10 valid names, and that's the options we present to the electorate.20:33
mikalI haven't voted on this revision because it happened while I was asleep20:34
jeblairi pushed up a new revision with the minor/consensus points addressed20:34
ttxjeblair: damn!20:34
ttxyou and your weird timezone20:34
jeblairi did not make the changes you and lsell are suggesting20:34
* ttx quickreads20:34
jeblairi feel like that substantially alters the proposal from mordred20:35
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jeblairi think that's a legitimate/important choice to make20:35
jeblairbut i favor the approach where we get the tc out of choosing as much as possible and let the whole community decide20:35
david-lyledoes the foundation currently trademark the top four on the ballot before the vote?20:36
jeblairi recognize the difficulties posed by post-poll trademark vetting, but i think the benefits outweigh it, and it's worth a try20:36
mordredyeah - I'd also like to be out of that game - I think the most recent election shows that the TC's choice on this is not what the community chooses20:36
jbrycedavid-lyle: yes20:36
ttxjeblair: I see your point -- just wanted to present an alternative solution20:36
mordredas I think the TC would have chosen either Lizard or would have written in Lemming :)20:36
david-lylea wide open list would be easy to block if trademarked after the fact20:36
jbrycedavid-lyle: to be clear, we don’t trademark them but we check their availability20:37
mikalWell, trade mark search, not trademark20:37
mikalYes?20:37
ttxjeblair: the TC still accepts exceptions, which makes it pretty central to the game20:37
mikalAhhh, yeah, that20:37
mordredttx: sure - but only in an exception manner - not as arbiters of taste in general20:37
jeblairttx: yeah.  i think the revised rules are pretty generous and hopefully will reduce calls for exceptions.20:37
mordredalso - the TC is the elected body of the ATCs - as was rightly pointed out, this is a decision that encompases more than just ATCs20:38
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mordredso while I think using the TC for exceptions is fine - it's really just that it's an easy and expedient way to do that which puts less people on the spot20:38
mordredgiven that we have weekly open meetings20:38
mordredbut if the entire populace of our community can express an opinion here, that's pretty cool!20:39
ttxjeblair: how would you run it, though ? The results will be out. People will start using the names. Then we come back and say well... #5 is actually the right name ?20:39
jeblairoccasionally we might be asked to make decisions that affect the whole community.  hopefully we're up to that.  :)20:39
ttxI just don't see how that can work :)20:39
jeblairsome folks have been using "lemming" for months, but that doesn't make it the name.20:39
ttxjeblair: or would you use some secret platform and keep the results for yourself ?20:39
jbrycejeblair: pretty much all of your decisions affect the whole community…20:40
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mordredthe name doesn't get encoded anywhere _REAL_ until the materials are printed for the Summit and then 6 months later until it's a stable branch20:40
ttxjeblair: *you* have been using it, maybe the TC was using it... But think about 1474 people using it20:40
mordredI'm pretty sure the foundation staff is not going to start printing code names until the trademark check is done20:40
ttxmordred: it appears in spec repos quite fast20:40
mordredok. so we shame those people - no big deal20:41
jbrycethe other thing to keep in mind is that trademark searches are not a binary yes/no answer. sometimes it can take days to more than a week to get an answer20:41
jeblairttx: i don't think it's going to be a problem.  and if it is, we could see about a platform that lets us delay publishing results.20:41
mordredif we do a vote and don't have an official answer for another 6 weeks I personally don't see that as a problem - but then I'm unreasonable20:41
jbryceand often the most popular names are usually the most likely to be already trademarked, so if we have to do that cycle a few times to get to the right one, it could easily be 2-3 weeks after the vote closed20:42
mordredok20:42
ttxI guess i don't want to be *that* election official20:42
morganfainbergi only ask one thing, how does ubuntu handle this? they publish possible names waaay in advance - and seem to coalesce on a real name when it's official20:42
mordredmorganfainberg: theya re chosen in secret by mark20:42
ttxmorganfainberg: Mark Shuttleworth picks20:42
ttxno contest20:42
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mikalHe also sometimes changes his mind later20:42
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morganfainbergsure. but the options are still published then mark picks something20:42
mikalAnd then they do a big renaming of things20:43
ttxmorgabra: no20:43
ttxmorganfainberg: of course not20:43
reedmorganfainberg, they also put an adjective to the name, so I believe the chances that a trademark is registered on 2 words is much lower20:43
morganfainbergreed, ++20:43
ttxmorganfainberg: the options are not published20:43
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jeblairjbryce: you could still check the top N names, and be no worse off than today as far as investment in that process goes20:43
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morganfainbergttx oh i thought they were. *shrug*20:43
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jeblairmorganfainberg: i thought that too20:43
jbrycejeblair: i’m talking more about the concern of how long people are willing to wait after a vote to find the actual winner20:44
david-lylethe longer the wait, the more closed the system appears20:44
mordredjbryce: it can't be worse than waiting for months to have a vote in the first place and not knowing when that's goign to happen20:44
morganfainbergjbryce, i think a delay of "when we have an answer" is probably fine.20:44
ttxdavid-lyle: ++20:44
sdaguejbryce: I think if we get a couple of cycles in advance people won't car as much20:44
sdaguelike if we're doing the N naming now, and it takes 6 weeks from now to know, that's cool20:44
morganfainbergsdague, ++20:44
mordredI think if there is a clear statement of "we did the vote, here are the prelim results - but guess what, we have to do legal trademark checks, so hang out for a sec"20:44
jbrycesdague: that would be nice20:44
mordredsdague: ++20:44
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ttxjeblair, mordred: I just fear the system will appear even more arbitrary and closed than today20:45
mordredttx: I don't see how that's possible20:45
sdagueso I'd say that if we are moving to this, we make it a goal to have the next 3 releases named20:45
ttxjeblair, mordred: I take it you're fine with being the election officials for this one ?20:45
mordredit has a clear system for getting nominations20:45
mordreda clear system for voting on them20:45
jbrycettx: also a good point. when we’ve had to deal with trademark names before, we always get accused of not trying hard enough20:45
mordredttx: sure!20:45
jeblairsdague: oh, that's something we might still need to tweak in my patch.  i think i have it limited so that we could do L now, but not N until after L is released (still before the L summit though).  do folks want to push that back one more cycle?20:45
jbryceand the reality is that when you get into some of those discussions (like potential liability), you just can’t talk about that in an open forum20:45
morganfainbergsdague, i think being more than "next cycle" does really address that.20:46
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ttxjeblair: "as soon as we know officially where the next summit is" ?20:46
morganfainbergbecause then there is no rush to get results in a narrow window20:46
jeblairjbryce: i have full faith that the foundation is equipped to turn the vagaries of a tm search into a binary yes/no20:46
mordred++20:46
ttxjeblair: but then "the Foundation" is blamed for slashing favorites20:46
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lsellit just feels to me like we're jumping from one extreme to another without trying to make some modifications like putting more names on the ballot, getting more community input via other means before finalizing the ballot, being more transparent about which names do or do not have risk from a trademark perspective before we come up with the final roster, etc...20:46
dhellmannjeblair: I liked keeping that limited, so we wouldn't pick N until we start work on L20:47
mordredI think we're just trying to put a process in place that does not have arbitrary limitions20:47
mordredthe ONLY limitations are if a trademark check comes back negative ex post facto20:47
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mordredwhich is completely fair game20:47
mordredand does not, to jbryce's point, need open discussion20:48
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ttxThe other contentious point was marketing feedback20:48
ttxAs far as marketing feedback goes, I think we can either add a "no disparaging or negative connotation" rule and have the TC judge that in phase 1 (with public input from marketing)...20:48
ttx...or just flag options which trigger marketing concerns and let the electorate make the final call20:48
ttxI think the current proposal is the latter20:49
jeblairdhellmann: yes, i want _some_ time limit so that we don't just pick the next 100 names at once, but if it would improve things to know the name sooner than what i wrote (opening of development on previous release, which, to be fair, is much earlier than we have been doing), i'm open.20:49
mordredI think the electorate are smart people and trust their decision making ability20:49
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sdaguepersonally, I don't really mind the current process. The only draw back I've seen with it is names coming too late, so we really do have long arc plans in some projects which we have to mark as "well, that's an L thing, and this is probably M, so that we can do the following in N"20:49
dhellmannjeblair: ++20:49
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mordredI think if they are informed as to concerns, then their voting can be very robust20:49
sdaguelike cells v2 in nova had conversations that went like that20:49
dhellmannsdague: yeah, I'd love it if we had the M name by the L summit20:49
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jeblairdhellmann: cool, so that's the timetable i have in my proposal -- we would do M right after the L release.20:50
ttxwe used to not even know wher ethe nest summit would be until the summit itself20:50
ttxnext*20:50
lsellso in practice, how many names do you expect to see on the ballot?20:50
jeblairgrr20:50
mordred50?20:50
jeblairdhellmann: cool, so that's the timetable i have in my proposal -- we would do M right after the K release.20:50
mordredI believe the initial list for G was something like that size, wasn't it ttx?20:50
dhellmannjeblair: would that actually leave time for the trademark search before the L summit?20:50
ttxWell, the list for L was about 30 names yes20:51
jeblairdhellmann: i think there's like 3 weeks, so it sounds like it could go either way.  also, foundation staff might be busy.  :)20:51
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dhellmannjeblair: right, so maybe we actually need to run that sooner than your proposal20:51
ttxmordred: arguably one issue with the current system was that nobody added anything to that wiki page20:51
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dhellmannjeblair: if we double up this cycle, we can move to one poll per cycle after this one20:51
dhellmannjeblair: maybe between the 1 and 2 milestones?20:52
mordredttx: ++20:52
jeblairdhellmann: wfm20:52
mordredjeblair, dhellmann ++20:52
mikaljeblair: I'd like to open L specs now, so having the next name mid-cycle would help20:52
mikaljeblair: now is a bit late for my needs20:52
mordredmikal: good point20:52
ttxOK, I guess we can do another round of comments on the review. If someone feels strongly that an alternate proposal is better, they should file it20:52
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dhellmannmikal: yeah, we'll be a little late this time but next cycle we should have the future names sooner20:53
mikalI want to do that as part of freezing new features for Kilo20:53
morganfainbergmikal, ++20:53
jeblairmikal: even my current proposal would accomodate that; the proposed change would have you knowing M by this point.20:53
ttxjeblair: unless you intend to still tweak it ?20:53
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mikaljeblair: excellent20:53
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ttxI still have a couple points to cover on the agenda20:54
jeblairttx: i think the only thing that might change is the timing; so maybe folks should review this, with particular attention to that20:54
mordredttx: are any of the next points things that involve the color of sheds in which bikes are held?20:54
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ttxjeblair: right, so people wanting something else should file that something else rather than expect you change your proposal significantly at this point20:54
jeblairor do we want me to go ahead and back it off so that, if we were using it now, we would have just finished the "M" poll?20:54
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jeblairttx: yes, i think any more substantial changes should be another proposal20:55
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ttxjeblair: frankly the timing is a non-issue, you could even remove it from the draft ("no later than" is plenty enough)20:55
ttxpoll will happen when someone steps up to do it, like always20:55
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ttxHistorically I realize I should have already done it and I start working on it20:56
ttxI expect the future officials to do the same20:56
ttxand ask the TC about if timing sounds right20:56
jeblairi'd like some guidance about timing in there20:56
anteayattx +1 for no later than20:56
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ttxok moving on20:57
ttx#topic Other governance changes20:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)"20:57
ttx* Add Cinder's os-brick library to cinder (https://review.openstack.org/153673)20:57
ttxThere is a comment from mikal on os-* names which sounds like a valid concern to me20:57
mikalI got talked around though20:57
mikalThere being a pypi clash and all20:57
ttxdon't want to go to an early rename20:57
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mikalI still don't love it though20:57
dhellmannThe name 'brick' is taken, so do we want to recommend completely renaming it?20:58
ttxso let's wait a bit on this one and think it through20:58
ttxdhellmann: right,n that's what I meant20:58
jeblairyeah, 'os-' was not because we love having 'os-' in names, it was because "apply-config" was just really generic.20:58
anteayaI am not in favour of os-* names20:58
ttxThe last 3 shall be approved tomorrow morning unless someone complains by then20:58
jeblair"brick" is not generic.  it's just taken.  :)20:58
ttx* Remove oslo.version from official projects (https://review.openstack.org/152654)20:58
ttx* Removes <service>-api repos from Documentation program (https://review.openstack.org/152140)20:58
ttx* Typo in Morgan's name and IRC nick (https://review.openstack.org/153213)20:58
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ttx#topic Open discussion20:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:58
mikalI should -1 that last one and ask if Morgan can just change his name20:58
sdaguecan we all -1 https://review.openstack.org/153213 and make him change his name?20:59
morganfainbergmikal, hahah20:59
mikalsdague: nap!20:59
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mikalsnap even20:59
ttxAs promised I pushed the discussion on openstack-specs approval rules to -dev but only Morgain replied:20:59
ttxI prefer to just call him Morgain20:59
jeblairoh wait i didn't see that20:59
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-January/055387.html20:59
sdaguebut, seriously, can we actually just merge changes like that20:59
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ttxsdague: ok ok ok20:59
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ttxI'm getting careful now, don't want other people saying I'm abusing my power21:00
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ttxOn the abovementioned thread, I would appreciate more people chiming in so that we can make a final call on that, before we rubberstamp another spec21:00
jeblairttx: will do21:00
ttxAnything else, anyone ?21:00
jeblairi have finally written up an analysis of our alternatives21:00
jeblairso i can reply to that thread with it21:00
jeblairi just did not see it in my ML reading21:00
ttxjeblair: ++21:00
jeblair(skimming)21:01
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ttxwhich is why I mention it today21:01
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jeblairthank you muchly!21:01
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* morganfainberg forgot i even responded to that thread21:01
ttxok, I think we are done21:01
morganfainbergi had to re-read my own response to see waht i said21:01
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ttx#endmeeting21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb 10 21:01:39 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-10-20.03.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-10-20.03.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-10-20.03.log.html21:01
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ttxcourtesy PTL ping: dhellmann, morganfainberg, notmyname, eglynn, nikhil_k, thingee, asalkeld, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov, mikal: around ?21:02
eglynno/21:02
dhellmanno/21:02
asalkeldo/21:02
david-lyleo/21:02
mikalHeya21:02
jungleboyjo/21:02
* morganfainberg hides under a rock.21:02
morganfainbergo/21:02
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* redrobot lurks21:02
thingeeo/21:02
* notmyname is sortof here21:02
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ihrachyshkao/21:03
ttx#startmeeting crossproject21:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Feb 10 21:03:34 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:03
ttxOur agenda for today:21:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'crossproject'21:03
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting21:03
ttx#topic Status update on novanet2neutron21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Status update on novanet2neutron (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:03
anteayao/21:03
anteayahi there21:03
ttxAs promised we scheduled a status update to keep track of how that effort was doing21:03
jokke_o/21:04
ttxanteaya: floor is yours21:04
anteayaso we have been working hard and making some progress21:04
anteayathanks21:04
jungleboyjOk.21:04
anteayawe have meetings21:04
anteaya#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova-nettoNeutronMigration21:04
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anteayathe logs are attached to that page21:04
anteayawe have merged part 1 of a two part neutron spec21:04
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anteayathe first part sets expectations for operators21:04
anteayaemagma is going to start work on docs to have something ready for sdague to present at the operators mid-cycle21:05
* SergeyLukjanov is here, hotel wifi isn't working ;(21:05
sdagueanteaya: much appreciated21:05
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anteayanow we are working on the second part, which some folks have requested proof of concept code to evaluate21:05
anteayawe have a wip patch up for a db migration21:05
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anteaya#link https://review.openstack.org/14826021:06
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anteayaour group thinks this can be tested by itself21:06
anteayaonce we have a patchset that doesn't crash jlibosva and an op from yahoo will test21:06
anteayawe also have a wip patch up for a proxy: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/21:07
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anteayawhich can use more eyes21:07
anteayaso right now21:07
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anteayawe are looking for someone to work on docs with emagma that can attend tuesday 0900 utc meetings21:07
anteayasince he can't21:07
anteayaand more reviewers21:07
anteayacomments?21:07
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anteayadid I lose the room?21:08
mikalI'm here21:08
ttxo/21:08
* morganfainberg is here21:08
anteayamikal: thanks21:08
annegentlewe're listening21:08
asalkeldanteaya, lots to look at21:08
anteayagreat okay so i'm done21:08
anteayaasalkeld: great21:08
anteayaunless there are comments or questions?21:09
mikalanteaya: have you identified any code which needs to land in nova?21:09
bknudsonis the neutron-proxy something that's likely to get into nova?21:09
anteayamikal: I have not yet seen any code changes that need to land in nova21:09
mikalanteaya: cool. please ping me if you do see any...21:09
anteayaif someone from the migration group is here and can correct me speak up21:09
anteayamikal: thank you, will keep my eye out21:09
ttxsdague: I'll be at the ops midcycle too, can help in presenting if needed21:09
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anteayabknudson: my udnerstanding is that no, it is a neutron thing that will be in neutron21:10
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anteayattx sdague and emagma the author of the docs says he also we be there21:10
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anteayabknudson: I stand corrected21:10
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anteayabknudson: this proxy patch is proposed against nova: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/21:10
anteayamikal: ^^ I'm wrong21:11
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mikalanteaya: are you making it to the ops mid-cycle?21:11
anteayathe proxy patch has been proposed against nova21:11
mikalanteaya: that might be useful if you can21:11
* mikal looks21:11
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anteayamikal: I am handing the torch, I'm mid-cycled out21:11
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mikalanteaya: fair enough21:11
sdaguemikal: I volunteered to be proxy for this info21:11
sdagueat the nova midcycle21:11
anteayamikal: will do all prep work I am able to make this an effective experience21:12
anteayabut my cat needs me21:12
markmcclainthere's a reasonable chance I'll be there as well21:12
sdagueas long as the team keeps me informed enough21:12
anteayamarkmcclain: good21:12
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anteayasdague: more than you want hopefully21:12
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sdague:)21:12
anteayaanything more here?21:12
anteayaor can I give the floor back?21:12
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ttxtaht sounds good to me21:13
* anteaya yields the floor back to ttx21:13
ttxgreat progress actually21:13
anteayathanks21:13
eglynnhmmm, the "Sideways" test ... an interesting use of grenade21:13
eglynnneat :)21:13
ttxnext topic...21:13
ttx#topic API_Working_Group update21:13
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ttxetoews is unfortunately unable to attend due to a scheduling conflict, so I'll paste his update here21:13
ttx#info WG has agreed to use 1 repo21:14
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-January/055687.html21:14
ttx#info WG has agreed to use the api-wg repo21:14
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056227.html21:14
ttx#info Of course things can change in the future but, at this point in the API WG's life, we feel the above are the most appropriate. They were good suggestions that provoked some interesting discussion but we'll just have to be more diligent about engaging the CPLs21:14
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ttxmuch like kaufer did in:21:14
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145579/21:14
ttxThat is all... Comments on that update ?21:14
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jokke_thumbs up21:15
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bknudsonlooks like these are the docs: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/api-wg/21:15
ttxbknudson: yes21:15
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ttx#topic EOL stable/icehouse (a.k.a. "fixing stable branches for good")21:16
*** openstack changes topic to "EOL stable/icehouse (a.k.a. "fixing stable branches for good") (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:16
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ttxSo there was a thread flagging the sad current state of stable branches and questioning our ability to support Icehouse for 6 more months21:16
ttxactually, more like 4 more21:16
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056366.html21:16
morganfainbergyeah those threads were kindof all over21:16
ttxPersonally I think we are in a better shape than in recent years, thanks to the stable team restructure and the nomination of stable branch champions21:17
ttxBut even if it's occuring less often, the branches still get broken, like today21:17
ttxOne issue this thread revealed is the gap between the stable branch champions and the QA/Gate teams... In think those two groups should be working much more closely together21:17
apevecfrom https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StableBranchRelease#Planned_stable.2Ficehouse_releases - 2014.1.5 - last planned, July 201521:17
jokke_ttx: ++21:17
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ttxMatt mentioned training more people to gate, I think those champions would be the first in line21:17
ttxs/would/should21:18
ihrachyshkattx, we need better notifications + untangle stable branches from bleeding edge. and this is btw pretty unconnected to the whole EOL issue for icehouse, juno is as well affected.21:18
ttxsharing the same IRC channels and the same status etherpads would also help21:18
jogoso the disconnect seems to be no one from stable maint is proactively improving stable infra21:18
sdaguemight I suggest that being on #openstack-qa is a strongly recommended activity for stable branch folks21:18
jogosdague: ++21:18
sdagueas this nearly always manifests as failing tempest tests21:18
ihrachyshkattx, I was actually going to ask QA people to do some TOI for silly stable maintainers, cool21:18
ttxWhen we embarked on the 15-month support journey in Paris, that was with the promise that stable capping would solve all the illness in the world21:18
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sdagueor other projects the qa team is typically responsible for21:19
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jogoTOI?21:19
ttxdo we still think that stable capping would avoid 95% of the issues ?21:19
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ihrachyshka'transfer of information'21:19
dhellmannttx: it should still improve the situation, but is proving harder to implement than we thought -- and there's not currently an owner21:19
ttxIf yes, I wondered if we should not hold a virtual sprint to make fast progress on that21:19
jogottx: honestly hard to tell. I hope capping non transient deps will help21:20
morganfainbergyou're still going to get occasional breakage21:20
dansmithI think capping will help a lot21:20
morganfainbergbut it should help a lot21:20
ttxsince we can't seem to find an "owner" with the right skillset21:20
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ttxlet's collectively fix that by working on it on the same day, rather than all in bits and pieces21:20
dhellmannttx: a sprint makes sense; jogo how much more do you think there is to do to get juno caps in place?21:20
ihrachyshkaI am open to join, but I'm not really into gate, so will be slow. jogo asked me to review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/147451/16 for the start, I'll start my day tomorrow with this one21:20
ttx(There are a lot of people involved, each with a piece of the puzzle, and we may benefit from having them all focused on the same issue on the same day)21:21
jokke_At least the capping would keep the stable gates together when there is something released that is not backwards compatible21:21
jogodhellmann: I *was* close until everything went kaboom21:21
dhellmannjogo: that's what I thought21:21
ttxthe sprint can double as a good intro ion stable gate knowledge21:21
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ihrachyshka+ for sprint and intro21:21
jogoihrachyshka: that is the crux of the issue. "I am not really into gate"21:21
sdagueihrachyshka: so unless we're going to turn off tests for stable branch, it seems like being into the gate is kind of key requirement of stable folks21:21
ttxjogo: or do you think a sprint wouldn't help ? You were probably the closest to the end goal, so you probably know21:22
apevecsdague, could we also look at simplifying testing on stable: e.g. what do we gain with I->J grenade testing21:22
jogothere is no one in stable that is working on gating infra/testing harness etc21:22
dhellmannihrachyshka: by "into" did you mean "interested in" or "already knowledgable about"?21:22
ihrachyshkasdague, I repeat: I relate to it and open for getting more involved (enough for stable stuff, don't ask me to go deeper)21:22
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ihrachyshkadhellmann, 2nd, sorry21:22
dhellmannapevec: that's the basic upgrade test, right?21:22
jogottx: a sprint for capping juno won't help IMHO. just have a few people follow that patch and related patches is enough21:22
dhellmannihrachyshka: that's what I thought, but wanted to clarify :-)21:22
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ttxjogo: so maybe just a shared channel. #openstack-gate ?21:23
apevecdhellmann, yes, but pointless between stable branches21:23
jogottx: I prefer -qa21:23
dhellmannjogo: is there more work to change the test job implementations for installing tempest in a virtualenv, or other things like that?21:23
jogowe already are in there all the time anyway21:23
ihrachyshkayeah, grenade for I->J is not critical and its removal would benefit a lot, untangling branches when they start to fall apart21:23
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dhellmannapevec: isn't that how people upgrade?21:23
jogodhellmann:  1 patch in the gate, at the top21:23
dansmithapevec: why is it pointless?21:23
clarkbgrenade I->J is probably one of the more important tests21:24
ttxdhellmann: they arguably have already upgraded21:24
dhellmannjogo: cool, so maybe a sprint isn't needed21:24
dhellmannttx: if I'm running stable I, and I want to upgrade, I would probably choose stable J, right?21:24
clarkbyou are double checking backports dont break your ability to upgrade21:24
morganfainbergapevec, i don't see why that would be unimportant. we want to amke sure upgrades from i->j aren't broken21:24
* dhellmann double checks his alphabet21:24
clarkbwhich you want to do if on I21:24
jogodhellmann: maybe a gate cruft crash course. on what the current state is and where we want it to go for stable21:24
morganfainbergclarkb, ++21:24
dhellmannjogo: ++21:24
dhellmannjogo: having a good doc about how the devstack gate job tools work would be useful too (that might exist already?)21:25
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ttxdhellmann: I would say that grenade is more useful to catch breaking changes in last stable -> master, than between stable -2 and stable -121:25
jokke_dhellmann: ++21:25
jogodhellmann: so someone from stable maint can work on moving all stable branches to pinning all dependencies (including transitive). that is a passive effort21:25
dhellmannjogo: good idea21:25
apevecdansmith, pointless on current stable, it is important I->J worked at GA21:25
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ttxdhellmann: as in, I know it catched the first kind of issue on the past, not sure it ever caught such an issue in the latter21:25
dhellmannwe should put a list of these things in an etherpad somewhere21:25
jogodhellmann: hmm, I think there are a few docs not sure if there is any one.21:25
sdagueapevec: only if we don't allow backports to J21:26
ihrachyshkattx, +, we don't even consider patches for backport that are 'scary' or do db migrations or anything non obvious, so the chance smth slips in is negligible21:26
ttxdhellmann: so cost of maintenandce might outweigh benefits21:26
dansmithapevec: why? until I is EOL, we need to make sure i->J works, no?21:26
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apevecsdague, backports do not include db schema changes by default, and if they do they must be backward compatible21:26
dansmithapevec: what does that have to do with anything?21:26
dansmithapevec: grenade tests a whooole lot more than db upgrades21:26
mtreinishapevec: db migrations are not the only thing involved in an upgrade21:27
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morganfainbergi would be very hesitant to remove i->j genade21:27
apevecwhat else? config changes? also not allowed in backports21:27
morganfainbergi'd rather defer that until we have the other fixes in21:27
apevecstable updates must work w/o updates21:27
apeveci.e. yum update and all still works21:27
morganfainbergif the maintenance cost is still too high, we can look at removing it21:27
jokke_apevec: that's exactly why those tests are important there21:28
apevecmorganfainberg, looks like it is the main paint point afaict21:28
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ihrachyshkamorganfainberg, we can start from pinning everything and see whether it makes us generally happy to maintain it as-is21:28
apevecihrachyshka, ack21:28
morganfainbergihrachyshka that is my point21:28
dhellmannihrachyshka: cap, don't pin, to allow for point updates with bug fixes21:29
dansmithapevec: so you're saying it's not worth testing because the reviewers will make sure that the backports don't break anything? why do we test anything then? :)21:29
morganfainbergdhellmann, ++21:29
ihrachyshkadhellmann, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/147451/16 actually pins21:29
dhellmannjogo: ^^ is experimental, right?21:29
apevecdansmith, ok, let's not send more time on this, was just an idea to float around :)21:29
dansmithapevec: alright :)21:29
morganfainbergbut yes lets cap, we can evaluate the benefit of keeping grenade until after we do the stable cap21:29
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jogodhellmann: well it doesn't work yet ... but its not experimental21:29
ttxSo... how about we complete stable reqs capping, keep all hands on deck in #openstack-qa until that's achieved... and see how that flies.21:29
ihrachyshkawhat about support term?21:29
dhellmannjogo: it's not = though, it's ~= so those allow patch updates, right?21:30
ttxIf it crashes again, we can look into more dramatic options like removing grenade between stables, or shortening support cycles21:30
morganfainbergttx, ++21:30
jogodhellmann: yes21:30
dhellmannttx: ++21:30
ihrachyshkaack21:30
jogowell we just bounced the last fix from the gate  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/154216/21:30
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ttxMore generally, stable branch chapions should get more education on gates (and anyone who wants to join them)21:30
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jogo Unable to compute factors p and q from exponent d.21:31
ttxjogo: sounds like bruteforcing RSA21:31
mtreinishoh, haven't seen that one in a while...21:31
ihrachyshkawow, sounds computer sciency21:31
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bknudsonparamiko21:31
ihrachyshkattx, so what's the plan to get us educated?21:31
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jogoso I see two action items from here21:32
ttxjogo, mtreinish: how does the shortterm plan I summarized work for you ?21:32
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jogo* get some stable maint people to step up and help with stable related tooling21:32
jogo* reevaluate 15 month support for Kilo21:32
jogo* oh and stable maint to use -qa21:33
dhellmannand set up that training21:33
jogoyes21:33
dhellmannwho's going to do that?21:33
ttxI can take the reevaluate item21:33
jogottx: wait another few hours to unwedge stable/juno and be able to work on pinning juno reqs21:33
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mtreinishttx: yeah, but I'm still extremely skeptical about 15months21:34
jogodhellmann: training is the follow up to the first bullet point21:34
jogomtreinish: me too21:34
ttxWe need a wider discussion on how costly maintaining 3 branches for 3 months every 6 months is actually much more of a nightmare than 2 branches all the time21:34
ihrachyshkamtreinish, me too, supporting 3+ branches in parallel is hard and honestly pointless from my side21:34
dhellmannjogo: ok, but it would be good to know who is going to put together the training materials and docs21:34
ttxlike... when branches are broken, how often is it branch-specific ?21:34
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ttxWe could easily reduce to 12 months and avoid the 3 parallel21:35
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ihrachyshkattx, maybe pinning up versions and recent untangling of tempest will make it effortless, we need some time and work to do before being sure21:35
ttxFrom a consumer standpoint it just feels weird to drop support at the release date without giving any time for the transition, hence the 15 months21:35
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mtreinishttx: I would support that21:35
lifelesssorry if this is offtopicish, but do we do a postmortem [and then the remedial work to stop that class of failure occuring again in future, when we have one of these fails] ?21:35
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morganfainbergttx, ++ i agree21:35
jogoihrachyshka: don't forget maintaining tooling. that takes effort as it changes over time21:35
lifelessspeaking to the cost21:36
dhellmannit would also be useful to know how the test job reconfiguration we've done affects how breaks in one branch impact other branches, esp. master21:36
ttxbut if 3 branches is a lot more work than 2 (and I'm not convinced of that), then 12 months is definitelky an option21:36
mtreinishlifeless: yes, and everytime we start to go and fix it the same problem wedges us...21:36
mtreinishwhich is what is happening now21:36
dhellmannlifeless: most of the causes of the failures have been different instances of the same issue lately21:36
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lifelessok, I'll dig into this with one of you after the meeting21:36
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jogolifeless: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/wedged-stable-gate-feb-2015  should explain it21:36
ihrachyshkaanother stable-ish point I wanted to raise is lack of ACLs for stable-maint to actually merge stuff21:37
jogoor at least some of it21:37
ihrachyshkano devstack, no tempest, no requirements/master21:37
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ihrachyshkano grenade either21:37
dhellmannihrachyshka: that will come naturally when it's clear that the people doing the work have the right backgrounds in those areas, no?21:37
jogoihrachyshka: yeah that is a fair point. This a bit of a chicken and egg issue though21:37
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* jogo wonders who else here is an active stable maint member?21:38
dhellmannin the mean time, there are people able to do the needed reviews21:38
morganfainbergihrachyshka if "you aren't really into gate" i'd say the transfer of knowledge needs to come first on those fronts21:38
ihrachyshkadhellmann, I think we should trust people not to merge unreasonable stuff even while they catch up.21:38
thingeejogo: o/21:38
ttxihrachyshka: also if there is more communication, +2 is not really that needed21:38
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ihrachyshkamorganfainberg, grenade - maybe, but devstack or requirements?21:38
sdagueI don't see stable folks reviewing devstack or grenade? Honestly, I fast approve fixes there when needed21:38
ttxit's blocking you currently because we don't communicate that much between groups21:38
mtreinishsdague: +121:39
morganfainbergsdague, +121:39
ihrachyshkattx, afaik most of +2 owners are not in my or apevec timezone21:39
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jogosdague: well we need to get out of the putting out fire mode and get in front of the issues21:39
jogobut we are trying to do that now (pinning deps etc.)21:39
ttxihrachyshka: that's a fair point, TZ doesn't help21:39
sdaguejogo: oh, agreed as well21:39
ttxpart of "not communicating" is due to not being oon the same TZ at all21:39
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ttxnot just us being dense21:39
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sdaguewell we do have a devstack +2 in .eu with chmouel, so he should be reachable then21:40
jogoif stable maint wants to help put out fires, they need people available at all times.21:40
ttxjogo: stable-maint is a bit more diffuse now, we have project specific teams and stable-maint-core to bind them all21:40
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jogoso stable-maint-core needs good timezone coverage21:40
chmouelyep!21:41
ttxso hard to tell. From -core, apevec, ihrachyshka are here21:41
ihrachyshkajogo, wanna relocate me? :D21:41
jogoihrachyshka: talk to mordred21:41
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ttxwe migth want other -core to step up as well21:41
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ttxok, I think we need to move on21:41
* mtreinish wonders where adam_g is21:41
ttxwe seem to have a path forward21:41
jogottx: yeah, not enough people involved is sorta the issue21:41
jokke_I think we need some coverage matrix from stable maint, devstack, etc. Just to see whom you can expect responding and when21:41
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dhellmannwe deal with the TZ issue for reviews in other parts of the project. If we can get to the point where having one stable branch broken doesn't also break master, the urgency to get fixes merged within minutes or hours should go away and we can deal with this more calmly.21:42
jogostill waiting for stable maint to sign up to help21:42
jogodhellmann: ++21:42
ttxok, let's move on21:42
ihrachyshkadhellmann, ++21:42
mtreinishdhellmann: that's only on some projects though. Tempest has to gate on all the stable branches too21:42
ihrachyshkajogo, I already stepped up to look into tooling21:42
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ttxihrachyshka: I think jogo meant "the other members". Obviously you and alan are here :)21:43
apevecmtreinish, adam_g is US west coast afaik21:43
ttxbut there are 6 people in that team21:43
dhellmannmtreinish: we should think more about that, maybe when a branch is broken we disable those tests21:43
sdagueso that's a good reason to be in #openstack-qa, because for 3 of those 4 projects approvers are there21:43
dhellmannsdague: ++21:43
mtreinishdhellmann: then we just open ourselves to breaking it more21:44
jogottx: yup, 2 is a good start but not sure if its enough21:44
dhellmannmtreinish: tradeoffs21:44
jokke_is it easy to drop those tests to non-voting temporarily?21:44
ttxjogo: I can takle the action to explain that stable-maint-core is not just to fasttrack backports in all projects21:44
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ttx#action ttx to ask stable-maint-core to get incolved in stable gate maint21:44
sdagueand if we need to grow review teams we should also talk about that as well21:44
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mtreinishdhellmann: heh, fair enough21:45
jogottx: thanks. And I will send out a follow up to arrange for a time to do a knowledge transfer21:45
ttxalright, really moving on now21:45
ttx#topic openstack-specs discussion21:45
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ttx* CLI Sorting Argument Guidelines (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145544/)21:45
ttxThis one looks ready to move to TC rubberstamping.21:45
ttxAll affected PTLs +1ed it (nikhil +1es an earlier patchset)21:45
ttxobjections?21:46
ttx#action ttx to add https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145544/ to next week TC agenda21:46
ttx* Add TRACE definition to log guidelines (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145245/)21:46
ttxLooks like this one may need one more draft before lining up the +1s, but only to fix nits21:46
ttxSo it's really close to rubberstamping21:47
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sdaguewould be good to get the PTL content votes in there, then we can do a final typo scrub21:47
ttxreview it now or forever hold your peace21:47
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ttx* Cross-Project spec to eliminate SQL Schema Downgrades (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152337/)21:47
ttxThis one is the result of http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-January/055586.html21:47
dansmithomg really?21:47
ttxreally wat21:48
dansmithreally going to ban sql downgrades21:48
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ttxban might be a bit string21:48
ttxong21:48
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ttxBut agree this one needs a lot of PTLs attention, since so many projects currently provide downgrade21:48
ttxAlso needs some operators feedback. The thread for that is there:21:48
dansmithI'm just so in favor of making the downgrade method print "Seriously?"21:48
bknudsongrenade tests downgrade?21:48
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-operators/2015-January/006082.html21:48
mtreinishbknudson: no21:49
sdaguebknudson: nothing tests downgrades21:49
ttxAFAICT general feedback from -operators is that nobody relies on downgrades21:49
morganfainbergdansmith, that's mostly what will happen.21:49
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sdaguethe closest we have is unit tests that try to downgrade an empty database21:49
ttxwhich is kind of making the point21:49
Rockygthank you sdague  you said it shorter than I would have21:49
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dansmithmorganfainberg: can't wait :)21:49
morganfainbergdansmith, "Seriously!? sys.exit()21:49
morganfainberg;)21:49
dansmithmorganfainberg: or "Your license to run openstack has just been revoked. kthx"21:50
morganfainbergdansmith, AHAahaha21:50
ttx"Nice try. Try restoriung from backup instead"21:50
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mikalttx: restoring from backup doesn't work either though21:51
RockygYou have entered the land of know return.21:51
ttxanyway, if you want it to happen, talk your fellow cores and local PTL into reviewing that one21:51
bknudsonlooks like it'll be oslo.db that will reject the downgrade, so that should make it consistent.21:51
mikalI think the spec is currently overly simplistic21:51
Rockygno21:51
dhellmannhttp://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/59033410.jpg21:51
mikalI think a lot of operators also _think_ that downgrades work21:51
mikalSo we're trying to solve an education problem with a policy21:52
dansmithdhellmann: perfect21:52
mikalWhich seems odd to me21:52
sdaguemikal: really? because that's not what I've heard at any summit21:52
morganfainbergmikal, i'd like to get more insight into the realities of downgrades on the spec, - because downgrades don't really work.21:52
RockygOnly operators with no db experience21:52
ttxsdague: nor on that -operators thread for the matter21:52
morganfainbergmikal, even if people think they do21:52
mikalsdague: my recollection of the ops meetup last time was there was surprise21:52
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RockygLet's query the operators at the midcycle21:52
morganfainbergRockyg, ++21:52
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morganfainbergRockyg, please do!21:52
morganfainbergi'd love that feedback21:52
mikalI'm not saying downgrades are great, but I am saying that dropping them doesn't solve our actual problem21:53
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jogoeven of some people are using it, I like the idea deprecating with scary warnings first21:53
bknudsonif operators need it then we'd add an anti-grenade test?21:53
dhellmannmikal: your case where the APIs are left up and continuing to allow changes during the upgrade is valid, but I'm not sure we can code around that.21:53
dansmithmikal: it solves the problem of not spending time on them and still having them not work :)21:53
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sdaguemikal: I wasn't at the last ops meetup, but at the ops tracks at the last 2 summits that wasn't the vibe I got21:53
RockygNo. convincing developers that willy-nilly changing the schemas is what has to happen21:53
morganfainbergmikal, well it does solve *a* problem. we support it and it could irrevocably destroy someone's install21:53
RockygSorry that it's bad to change them willy-nilly21:53
mikaldhellmann: well, what worries me is it might take the operator some time to realize they need to roll back21:54
morganfainbergmikal, and there is very very little use/testing of the edge cases with them / any cases21:54
dhellmannmikal: fair21:54
mikaldhellmann: i.e. shut apis down, do upgrade, test and thing everything is ok, turn stuff back on, run for a while, realize they're screwed21:54
lifelessmikal: so if dropping the downgrade doesn't solve our problem, what do you think the actual problem is ?21:54
mikalI think the spec needs to explore the state change issue more21:55
morganfainbergi've never heard of a single operator actually using a downgrade in production / real deployment. please lets find thos operators21:55
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mikalAnd we need to have an alternative path proposed21:55
dhellmannit would definitely be useful to have a recommendation for dealing with this case21:55
morganfainbergmikal, if something is that broken that justifies a rollback, do you really trust the data from the new code?21:55
mikalmorganfainberg: I've certainly met operators who have had to do manual db cleanups post upgrade21:55
mikalBut that's rolling forward, which I think is reasonable21:56
jokke_morganfainberg: and educate them using testing + production?21:56
morganfainbergmikal, that is a different thing.21:56
dansmithsince downgrade doesn't work today, removing them doesn't seem to change where we are, and improve it if anything. Then we can talk about other strategies, right?21:56
mikaldansmith: that's true21:56
mikalBut think like an operator...21:56
sdagueyeh, I'm with dansmith on this. The current path is so massively untested, and not really right21:56
morganfainbergdansmith, it does lighten our test load and prevents irrivocable harm.21:56
dansmithit's actually worse than downgrade being a no-op21:56
mikalIf we throw away rollbacks (which I am ok with), we also need to provide clear guidance on what to do when you experience a problem21:56
sdagueso it's like saying the first time you're going to test your HA env is when you get a blackout21:57
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dansmither, I mean downgrade being a no-op is safer21:57
mikalI want to see that discussion happening now so that we actually do that bit21:57
lifelessit sounds like we're saying that we don't provide guidance now, and that we need to.21:57
morganfainbergmikal, sure. this is why the spec and threads are posted :)21:57
lifelessbut AIUI we already do provide guidance - we say to backup the system21:57
mikallifeless: backups don't work either21:57
ttxsdague: right, I fail to see how preventing them from shooting themselves in the foot would be a bad idea. That doesn't mean we shouldn't work on educating them about safer weapons, tbut that feels like an orthogonal thing21:57
dansmithttx: exactly21:57
lifelessmikal: I recognise that21:57
morganfainbergproviding the right guidance is part of the spec. but claiming we support something that we shouldn't should be addressed.21:57
sdaguettx: yes, I agree21:58
RockygSounds like we should have a session at the midcycle + on the operators list21:58
mikalSo, my problem is that the spec doesn't present a workable alternative21:58
morganfainbergttx, ++21:58
dhellmannmikal: ++21:58
mikalI'm not trying to be difficult21:58
mikalI feel I am explaining this poorly21:58
morganfainbergmikal, i'm not sure what the alternative would be.21:58
sdaguemikal: so until we have a robust rollback, we should leave code in that probably destroys their environment?21:58
morganfainbergor how you'd tool that21:58
mikalI want to use the desire to drop rollbacks as a lever to provide a better long term solution21:58
sdaguethat... seems suboptimal21:58
dansmithwhy does a workable alternative have to be a prereq for removing something that actively does harm?21:58
lifelessthis is our current guide - http://docs.openstack.org/openstack-ops/content/ops_upgrades-roll-back.html21:58
jogodansmith: when you put it that way21:59
dhellmannsdague: no, not until we implement that, but until we actually provide guidance to operators who thought rollback might have been what they would use21:59
mikaldansmith: because we haven't solved this problem for several years, and this is how I force people to think it through21:59
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ttxI think mikal can take an action to phrase his objection in a clearer manner on that spec21:59
ttxwe need to close this meeting21:59
dansmithmikal: by holding other people's data hostage? :)21:59
sdaguedhellmann: like http://docs.openstack.org/openstack-ops/content/ops_upgrades-roll-back.html ?21:59
ttxSo we don't have time anymore for the last one:21:59
mikaldansmith: be nice21:59
ttx* Testing guidelines (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150653/)21:59
sdaguethanks lifeless for the link :)21:59
mikaldansmith: we've had that data lock in a basement for ages21:59
ttxPlease read it and provide feedback on it, it's a pretty fundamental piece21:59
mikaldansmith: I'm told it likes it there21:59
dhellmannsdague: maybe?21:59
dansmithmikal: hah22:00
ttx#topic Open discussion & announcements22:00
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ttxWill just paste the 1:1 syncs log, focused on the early kilo-3 plans22:00
ttxLogs at: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2015/ptl_sync.2015-02-10-09.22.html22:00
ttxWe'll skip 1:1s next week.22:00
ttxquick last words before I endmeeting?22:00
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ttxSounds like a no22:01
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ttx#endmeeting22:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Feb 10 22:01:40 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-10-21.03.html22:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-10-21.03.txt22:01
jokke_thnx all22:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-10-21.03.log.html22:01
ttxThanks everyone22:01
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