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| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Mar 3 08:00:58 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:01 |
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| anteaya | say hello if you are here for the third-party meeting | 08:01 |
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| anteaya | #endmeeting | 08:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 08:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Mar 3 08:58:38 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-03-03-08.00.html | 08:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-03-03-08.00.txt | 08:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-03-03-08.00.log.html | 08:58 |
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| anteaya | #startmeeting nova-net-to-neutron-migration | 09:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Mar 3 09:00:02 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 09:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 09:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_net_to_neutron_migration' | 09:00 |
| obondarev | hi | 09:00 |
| anteaya | hello | 09:00 |
| anteaya | how are you oleg? | 09:00 |
| anteaya | gus are you around? | 09:00 |
| anteaya | mikal ping | 09:00 |
| obondarev | I'm great! Thank you :) | 09:00 |
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| anteaya | I don't see belmoria in channel | 09:00 |
| anteaya | obondarev: glad to hear it | 09:00 |
| anteaya | might just be you and I | 09:00 |
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| obondarev | anteaya: I see | 09:01 |
| anteaya | shall we get started? | 09:01 |
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| obondarev | anteaya: is there some conference or smth? | 09:01 |
| anteaya | #topic the state of the Neutron spec (obondarev) | 09:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "the state of the Neutron spec (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:01 | |
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| obondarev | anteaya: sure we can | 09:01 |
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| anteaya | obondarev: no I think we are just close to feature freeze for kilo | 09:01 |
| anteaya | so folks are otherwise occupied | 09:02 |
| anteaya | it will pick up again | 09:02 |
| mikal | Hi | 09:02 |
| anteaya | so any change on spec status this week? | 09:02 |
| anteaya | mikal: you are here | 09:02 |
| obondarev | ok, I see | 09:02 |
| anteaya | yay | 09:02 |
| obondarev | no updates on the specs side again | 09:02 |
| anteaya | moving on | 09:02 |
| obondarev | so probably we should move to implementation topic | 09:02 |
| anteaya | #topic the state of implementation (obondarev) | 09:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "the state of implementation (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:02 | |
| anteaya | go ahead | 09:02 |
| obondarev | I tested jlibosva's db migration patch a little bit on devstack | 09:02 |
| obondarev | it seems working fine for flat (and flatdhcp, no floating ips) for my really simple data | 09:03 |
| anteaya | wonderful | 09:03 |
| anteaya | terrific | 09:03 |
| obondarev | there is a couple of nits which I'll comment on review | 09:03 |
| anteaya | would you be able to make a comment on the patch stating under what conditions it worked for you? | 09:03 |
| anteaya | and yes, thank you | 09:03 |
| obondarev | anteaya: sure | 09:03 |
| obondarev | will comment that | 09:03 |
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| obondarev | for nova-net proxy I've uploaded new patch set last week | 09:04 |
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| obondarev | so in its current state it should allow to handle allocate/deallocate_for_instance in proxy mode | 09:04 |
| anteaya | I see that thank you | 09:04 |
| anteaya | so far no reviews | 09:04 |
| anteaya | were you able to read the logs from the last nova meeting? | 09:04 |
| obondarev | I think I red | 09:05 |
| anteaya | so you caught that dan smith is still not sold that this is the best direction? | 09:05 |
| obondarev | *read | 09:05 |
| obondarev | yeah | 09:05 |
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| anteaya | okay | 09:05 |
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| obondarev | I know he thinks that the best is to not do it at all | 09:05 |
| anteaya | not to do a proxy at all? | 09:06 |
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| obondarev | yes | 09:06 |
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| anteaya | what do you think he would support as a direction? | 09:06 |
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| obondarev | I don't know | 09:06 |
| anteaya | mikal: any insight here? | 09:06 |
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| anteaya | what do you think dan and nova would support as a direction, since we don't seem to be getting support for a proxy | 09:07 |
| mikal | So the short answer is I am not sure | 09:07 |
| mikal | I need ti sit down and tlak with Dan about it more | 09:07 |
| mikal | But I haven't found the time for that | 09:08 |
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| obondarev | I feel Dan's main concern is that with the proposed approach we'll not be able to handle complex cases | 09:08 |
| mikal | I accept this is a thing I need to find time for though | 09:08 |
| obondarev | currently I'm debugging proxy on devstack, found several issues there | 09:08 |
| obondarev | going to fix them and upload a working version | 09:08 |
| obondarev | today or tomorrow | 09:08 |
| anteaya | okay so if we don't have support for the current direction, then perhaps we can work on finding support for some direction to be determined | 09:09 |
| anteaya | yes? | 09:09 |
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| obondarev | I guess so | 09:09 |
| mikal | anteaya: remind me of the review number for the nova proxy? | 09:10 |
| obondarev | otherwise I don't know what's the way forward | 09:10 |
| anteaya | sorry | 09:10 |
| anteaya | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/ | 09:10 |
| anteaya | proxy | 09:10 |
| mikal | Ta | 09:10 |
| anteaya | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/148260/ | 09:10 |
| anteaya | db migration | 09:10 |
| anteaya | thanks for asking | 09:10 |
| obondarev | I'll also add a comment with an instruction on how it can be tested together with db migration patch | 09:10 |
| obondarev | with what to do and what to expect | 09:10 |
| obondarev | hope this will be enough to prove that the approach does its job | 09:11 |
| mikal | So, re-reading that Dan' | 09:11 |
| mikal | s concern is quite specific | 09:11 |
| mikal | He doesn't want to fake out the sqlalchemy layer | 09:11 |
| mikal | "I feel like doing this at the nova/network/base_api.py layer is the proper place, probably subclassing the nova-net one and re-using a lot of what is there. I guess that I don't believe that just replacing the persistence layer is going to be enough to cover more than just the most simple of cases." | 09:11 |
| obondarev | yeah | 09:12 |
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| obondarev | that's why I prefer that all the discussion should happen on the review | 09:12 |
| mikal | But yeah, let me chat with Dan and let you know what I can find out from a high bandwidth conversation next week | 09:12 |
| obondarev | we discussed that with Dan on irc | 09:12 |
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| mikal | Oh, ok | 09:12 |
| mikal | Where did that end up? | 09:12 |
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| obondarev | so he said he can't come up with a better approach | 09:13 |
| obondarev | rather that don't do it | 09:13 |
| obondarev | in my comments I tried to explain why proxying at api layer is not simpler and clearer | 09:14 |
| mikal | But what about the base_api comment | 09:14 |
| mikal | Is that his proposed better approach? | 09:14 |
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| obondarev | that was before our conversation | 09:15 |
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| obondarev | probably I convinced him | 09:15 |
| obondarev | not sure however | 09:15 |
| mikal | Ok | 09:15 |
| anteaya | obondarev: you didn't convince him | 09:15 |
| mikal | Like I said, let me chat to him and see what I can learn | 09:15 |
| anteaya | since his feeling at the nova meeting remained the same | 09:16 |
| obondarev | but he seem not advocating api approach any more | 09:16 |
| obondarev | anteaya: from what I saw his only suggestion was not do it | 09:17 |
| anteaya | right | 09:17 |
| anteaya | which means we need to find out what to do | 09:17 |
| obondarev | anteaya: he didn't mention any other approach, did he? | 09:17 |
| mikal | So, I think we should table this until I can chat with Dan | 09:17 |
| mikal | We seem to now be trying to guess what he thinks | 09:17 |
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| anteaya | I didn't ask, since i knew you wanted to keep working on the proxy | 09:17 |
| mikal | Which seems unproductive | 09:17 |
| anteaya | mikal: good point | 09:17 |
| obondarev | anteaya: tha't why I thought I probably convinced him that api approach isn't better | 09:18 |
| anteaya | moving on | 09:18 |
| anteaya | you didn't | 09:18 |
| anteaya | #topic documentation | 09:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "documentation (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:18 | |
| anteaya | so nothing new here | 09:18 |
| anteaya | we have a patch up to docs but it is on hold while they go from xml to rst | 09:19 |
| anteaya | #topic testing | 09:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "testing (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:19 | |
| anteaya | so we have the db migration if anyone wants to test it | 09:19 |
| anteaya | anything more in testing? | 09:19 |
| anteaya | okay moving on | 09:20 |
| anteaya | #topic open discussion | 09:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:20 | |
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| anteaya | anyone have anything here? | 09:21 |
| anteaya | okay let's call it then | 09:21 |
| anteaya | obondarev mikal thanks for your attendance, I'm grateful | 09:21 |
| anteaya | mikal: have fun tomorrow on your visit to the salt mines | 09:21 |
| obondarev | anteaya: thank you for organizing | 09:21 |
| anteaya | sure | 09:21 |
| anteaya | I look forward to seeing where we are next week | 09:21 |
| * gus shuffles in quietly and hopes no-one notices his tardiness... | 09:22 | |
| anteaya | hopefully we can have some directional guidance | 09:22 |
| anteaya | gus: hi | 09:22 |
| anteaya | we are just finished | 09:22 |
| mikal | anteaya: thanks! | 09:22 |
| anteaya | gus: do you have anything you wish to add before we close out? | 09:22 |
| mikal | gus: well timed! | 09:22 |
| gus | heh, no I have nothing to add this week either. | 09:22 |
| anteaya | okay thanks | 09:23 |
| anteaya | have a good rest of time of day to you | 09:23 |
| anteaya | see you next week | 09:23 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 09:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 09:23 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Mar 3 09:23:18 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 09:23 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-03-03-09.00.html | 09:23 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-03-03-09.00.txt | 09:23 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-03-03-09.00.log.html | 09:23 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Mar 3 15:00:35 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| bauzas | clock ? | 15:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:00 |
| alex_xu | o/ | 15:00 |
| bauzas | \o | 15:00 |
| edleafe | o/ | 15:00 |
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| * n0ano notes that meetbot commands work better in a window running meetbot | 15:01 | |
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| bauzas | sounds like we definitely lost jay because of his prom :) | 15:01 |
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| n0ano | anyway, edleafe congratulations on the spec, it's finally in | 15:01 |
| edleafe | \o/ | 15:02 |
| PaulMurray | o/ | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | so, to business (hopefully short) | 15:02 |
| n0ano | #topic patch status | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | all the specs are approved so now we just have to implement them | 15:02 |
| n0ano | I guess I'll throw it open, anyone have any problems they need help with? | 15:03 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: we can circle on the blueprints | 15:03 |
| edleafe | I do | 15:03 |
| n0ano | edleafe, go ahead | 15:03 |
| edleafe | I'm getting strange RPC version mismatch from the ec2 tests | 15:03 |
| bauzas | before digging into details, we should just provide a quick reminder to all | 15:04 |
| edleafe | If you see the Jenkins logs for py27 in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/160513/ | 15:04 |
| bauzas | Feature Proposal Freeze is this Thursday 5th | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | so, no new patches unless exceptional circumstances | 15:04 |
| bauzas | that said, now back to edleafe's problem | 15:05 |
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| edleafe | I'm not sure why these tests are failing now | 15:05 |
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| * bauzas checking | 15:05 | |
| edleafe | From what I've traced, it looks as though the compatibility check says that 3.x is not compatible with 4.0 | 15:05 |
| edleafe | IOW if the major version is newer, it assumes that the endpoint can't handle it | 15:06 |
| edleafe | which makes no sense to me | 15:06 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I think that's probably a side-effect of your change | 15:06 |
| edleafe | especially since the old version for scheduler was 4.0, and I bumped it to 4.1 | 15:06 |
| n0ano | edleafe, indeed, you would think that would be a greater than rather than an equal test | 15:07 |
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| edleafe | bauzas: I don't see how I changed anything in the path for ec2's stop_instance calls | 15:07 |
| bauzas | edleafe: by reading the trace, I can see some path by the compute.api | 15:07 |
| n0ano | edleafe, did you change any common code | 15:07 |
| edleafe | n0ano: not that I can see | 15:08 |
| lxsli | oops o/ | 15:08 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: I think that needs further verifications, have you tested on your local devstack ? | 15:08 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: because even Tempest is red | 15:09 |
| * n0ano bauzas beats me again | 15:09 | |
| edleafe | bauzas: yes - it fails there too | 15:09 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: the one thing is in compute.rpcapi.py | 15:09 |
| edleafe | I tried bumping the version there, and it just makes different ec2 tests fail | 15:09 |
| edleafe | but all due to incompatible versions | 15:10 |
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| n0ano | well, if it's failing locally we have to fix that first | 15:10 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I seriously need to review your code before saying anything | 15:10 |
| edleafe | bauzas: sure | 15:10 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: at least try to identify on your local machine | 15:10 |
| edleafe | I'm just wondering if there is any magic rpc version juju that I don't know about | 15:11 |
| bauzas | edleafe: well, see my patch about upgrading the RPC version if you need help | 15:11 |
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| edleafe | bauzas: ok, will do | 15:11 |
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| alex_xu | ec2 unittest like a function..... running all the service... | 15:11 |
| bauzas | at the moment, the gate is in a pretty bad shape so I'm rechecking consistently but I'm sure about my code | 15:11 |
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| bauzas | alex_xu: you mean it's a functional test ? indeed | 15:12 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, yeah, but if it's failing locally then the gate status doesn't really matter | 15:12 |
| edleafe | n0ano: yeah, this isn't a gate issue | 15:12 |
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| alex_xu | bauzas: yea, I just found that, but I didn't find out anything can help edleafe | 15:12 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: I was mentioning my own series which is done but has various -1s | 15:13 |
| edleafe | I was hoping that someone had a quick answer that could save me hours of searching | 15:13 |
| bauzas | but agreed, let's fix first locally before sending it back to gerrit | 15:13 |
| n0ano | bauzas, but yours passes locally I assume so it would be a good template | 15:13 |
| bauzas | edleafe: it does need hours of reviewing before giving a quick answer :) | 15:14 |
| edleafe | bauzas: heh | 15:14 |
| n0ano | edleafe, looks like there's no magic bullet for this one | 15:14 |
| edleafe | I'll let everyone know what the problem was when I figure it out | 15:14 |
| bauzas | the good news is that something so tomato red just means that you made a huge mistake | 15:14 |
| n0ano | edleafe, keep me posted, I'm free most of today so I'll look at this also | 15:14 |
| bauzas | and huge mistakes are the easiest to fix | 15:15 |
| n0ano | bauzas, and more likely a single problem that impacts everything | 15:15 |
| bauzas | probably | 15:15 |
| n0ano | OK, since we're all here, let's do a quick cycle through the specs | 15:16 |
| edleafe | bauzas: yeah, it is something with the interaction between compute and scheduler RPC version numbers | 15:16 |
| edleafe | gotta keep playing around with it | 15:16 |
| bauzas | edleafe: both are unrelateed | 15:16 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, how's your resource tracker use objects coming? | 15:16 |
| PaulMurray | great | 15:16 |
| bauzas | edleafe: you can bump a version without touching the other | 15:16 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, I have one more patch to put up for compute nodes - just fixing some tests | 15:17 |
| edleafe | bauzas: that's what I thought, but the ec2 tests started failing | 15:17 |
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| n0ano | PaulMurray, cool, we'll mark you as green, let us know if you need any help | 15:17 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, I think there are one or two places where instances are still using conductor calls gut don't need to - so will sort that | 15:17 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, will do | 15:17 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, great | 15:17 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, next is detach service from compute node | 15:18 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I'm in | 15:18 |
| bauzas | n0ano: so basically, 95% of code is merged, only a few patches missing - basically about the service field on the DB side | 15:18 |
| n0ano | bauzas, excellent, mark that as bright green | 15:19 |
| bauzas | so I'm still beating with last outstanding bugs but I have core reviewers support | 15:19 |
| bauzas | n0ano: yeah I'm considering this blueprint as done for Kilo, the rest can be done in Liberty | 15:19 |
| edleafe | bauzas: anything we can do to help push it across the finish line? | 15:19 |
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| n0ano | jay doesn't appear to be on line, I'll manually go over his patch series after the meeting | 15:20 |
| bauzas | edleafe: not really, that's quite simple but I had to deal with side effects | 15:20 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, next 2 are you, model request spec and cahnge select_destinations | 15:20 |
| bauzas | I'm planning to deliver a last iteration by today | 15:20 |
| edleafe | bauzas: k | 15:20 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: yeah, so let's consider these 2 specs are not targetable for Liberty | 15:21 |
| bauzas | n0ano: because even the spec was wrong - based on reviews | 15:21 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: so I'll focus on *one* spec (will merge both) by L-1 once the trunk opens | 15:22 |
| bauzas | that should be quick | 15:22 |
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| bauzas | targeting this spec for L-1 as you understand | 15:22 |
| n0ano | I'm a little confused, even though they were accepted you're saying they are wrong? | 15:22 |
| bauzas | n0ano: right | 15:22 |
| bauzas | n0ano: ndipanov and I agreed on the fact it was better to add new RPC method instead of managing the hydradation on the same method, ie. select_dest() | 15:23 |
| n0ano | bummer, I hope we don't have an infinite review process on them during Liberty | 15:23 |
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| bauzas | also, the RequestSpec proposed object is probably wrong, we don't need all the Instance object | 15:24 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I don't think so, we had good feedback on Kilo for this spec | 15:24 |
| bauzas | n0ano: and as it was an approved spec, it will be short for L | 15:24 |
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| n0ano | OK, my worry is will this cause issues with splitting out gantt | 15:25 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: I have a plan :) | 15:25 |
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| n0ano | we're all listening | 15:25 |
| bauzas | n0ano: but that requires to be discussed on Vancouver | 15:25 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: I mean, we know that we have lots of things to do for splitting out Gantt, not only fixing tech deby | 15:26 |
| bauzas | n0ano: so I'm in favor of identifying the work for the migration path and do it for L | 15:26 |
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| ndipanov | bauzas, are we talking about request_spec object one? | 15:26 |
| n0ano | OK, maybe an outline in one of the future IRC meeings would be good so we have an idea of what you are thing of | 15:26 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I have ideas again, I need to drop them off | 15:26 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: yup | 15:26 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: sure, let's outline that next week - but ideally I would expose it once FF is there | 15:27 |
| bauzas | n0ano: because we don't exactly know what's missing | 15:27 |
| bauzas | like the resource-objects BP is currently stale | 15:27 |
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| n0ano | I don't want to put you on the spot right now but I don't want to hit everyone with new stuff at Vancouver so yeah, let's talk on this next week | 15:28 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: agreed | 15:29 |
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| n0ano | I think that's everything for the current patches (mostly green except for those that aren't :-) | 15:29 |
| bauzas | next BP ? | 15:29 |
| bauzas | n0ano: nope, you forgot one | 15:29 |
| bauzas | n0ano: and I have excellent news | 15:29 |
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| bauzas | so, bp/isolate-sched-db for aggregates is up for code-review | 15:30 |
| bauzas | full completion of the spec, only waiting feedback | 15:30 |
| n0ano | bauzas, that is good news, hopefully it'll merge soon | 15:30 |
| bauzas | n0ano: yeah, I was targeting to be uploading it before FPF | 15:31 |
| bauzas | it will become very hard to propose new patches by next week | 15:31 |
| bauzas | btw. edleafe our patch about fixing the cast_as_call fixture got merged, you can rebase on top of master | 15:32 |
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| n0ano | so, anything else on patches? | 15:33 |
| bauzas | folks, think about updating the nova priorities etherpad if you want core support | 15:33 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, good point although we can push at the nova IRC meeting also | 15:34 |
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| n0ano | then, moving on | 15:34 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:34 | |
| edleafe | oh, and the isloate-sched-db for instances is up for code review too | 15:34 |
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| n0ano | edleafe, excellent | 15:35 |
| n0ano | anyone have anything new for today? | 15:35 |
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| * edleafe hears crickets | 15:35 | |
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| * n0ano also | 15:36 | |
| n0ano | then tnx everyone, we'll talk next week | 15:36 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:36 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Mar 3 15:36:20 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:36 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-03-03-15.00.html | 15:36 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-03-03-15.00.txt | 15:36 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-03-03-15.00.log.html | 15:36 |
| alex_xu | thanks all, see you | 15:36 |
| bauzas | thanks | 15:36 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: ping | 17:04 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: ping | 17:04 |
| andreykurilin_ | pong) | 17:04 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev: ping | 17:04 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42:hi! | 17:04 |
| oanufriev | pong, boris-42 | 17:04 |
| andreykurilin_ | boris-42: I just came home. | 17:04 |
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| amaretskiy | hi | 17:05 |
| e0ne | hi | 17:05 |
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| boris-42 | e0ne: hi | 17:06 |
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| boris-42 | #startmeeting Rally | 17:06 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Mar 3 17:06:17 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:06 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:06 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:06 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | hello everbody | 17:06 |
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| boris-42 | let's start from e0ne | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | #topic Cinder benchmarks | 17:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cinder benchmarks (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:06 | |
| e0ne | hi | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | e0ne: any updates ? | 17:06 |
| e0ne | i've got a few | 17:07 |
| e0ne | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152670/ - is blocked by ci | 17:07 |
| e0ne | it's too hard to investigate issues w/o logs | 17:07 |
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| e0ne | and we'll continue to work on others banchmarks after cinderclient release | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | redixin: ping | 17:08 |
| redixin | pong | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | redixin: this patch is blocekd by CI | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | redixin: Mirantis CI | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | redixin: maybe you can take a look why it fails ? | 17:09 |
| redixin | sure | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | redixin: thank you | 17:09 |
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| boris-42 | e0ne: so redixin is going to help you because it's Mirantis Rally CI god | 17:09 |
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| e0ne | boris-42, redixin: thanks | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | e0ne: anything else? | 17:10 |
| e0ne | no, thats all from my side | 17:10 |
| e0ne | except | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | e0ne: ? | 17:10 |
| e0ne | we started investigation on cinder performance. rally on gates helps us. i'll post update next week | 17:11 |
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| e0ne | actully, it was found with rally | 17:11 |
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| amaretskiy | maybe submit a user story about that? | 17:13 |
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| boris-42 | e0ne: yep | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | e0ne: we have in rally/doc/user_stories | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | e0ne: so it will be nice to contribute to it | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | e0ne: could you do it? | 17:13 |
| e0ne | boris-42: need to take a look on it first | 17:14 |
| msdubov_ | e0ne https://github.com/stackforge/rally/tree/master/doc/user_stories | 17:14 |
| msdubov_ | e0ne: And then it is included in our docs http://rally.readthedocs.org/en/latest/user_stories.html | 17:14 |
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| msdubov_ | e0ne: So it will be very nice if you add a user story | 17:15 |
| e0ne | i won't promice anything except i'll take a look on it | 17:15 |
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| msdubov_ | e0ne: Anyway, if you have no time to write long texts, you can just send the data and the main points to me and I'll make a user story out of it. | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | okay | 17:16 |
| e0ne | msdubov_: thanks | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | #topic Mirantis CI updates | 17:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mirantis CI updates (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:17 | |
| boris-42 | redixin: please share updates to Mirantis CI | 17:17 |
| redixin | we have a new job ecli-py34-postgres, so rally will support py34 soon | 17:18 |
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| redixin | also we will see "logs of all services" soon | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | redixin: so we need to merge patch from andreykurilin_ ? | 17:19 |
| redixin | not yet | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | redixin: or we are blocked by publishing results? | 17:19 |
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| redixin | he wants to see command'd output, and this will be done soon too | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | redixin: great, could you concentrate on this stuff ^ | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | redixin: so we will get support of py34 soon? | 17:20 |
| andreykurilin_ | yes, I want to be sure that all rally commands work as expected:) | 17:20 |
| andreykurilin_ | in py34 env | 17:20 |
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| redixin | we will got py34 after this job show us that everything works as expected | 17:21 |
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| redixin | thats all i think | 17:24 |
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| boris-42 | uh sry | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | #topic New Rally input format | 17:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New Rally input format (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:30 | |
| boris-42 | Okay guys I see a lot of reviews | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | they are all quite small | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159065/ | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | redixin: ^ what do you think | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | echoingumesh: as well what do you think=) | 17:31 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: what do you think is it good engouh? | 17:31 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42: What do you think about my proposal about task modes (consequent/parallel)? | 17:32 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42: That's the main point I had | 17:32 |
| redixin | i will take a look | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: so I think it's valid case | 17:32 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42: As for the rest, seems ok | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: so like we can have scenario that will create image | 17:32 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42: by 'valid' you mean that we can implement it this way? | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: then scenario that will delete them | 17:32 |
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| msdubov_ | boris-42: Yep | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: or just list() | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: so yep I will add that in new version | 17:33 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: of review | 17:33 |
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| msdubov_ | boris-42: And with this modes the task would be a bit more readable, because now it's not obvious that the scenario are run in parallel... | 17:33 |
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| msdubov_ | boris-42: Great | 17:33 |
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| boris-42 | others? | 17:34 |
| echoingumesh | I think i like it | 17:34 |
| boris-42 | echoingumesh: do you find it simpler then previous one? | 17:34 |
| echoingumesh | Yes | 17:34 |
| boris-42 | echoingumesh: if something is unclear it's better to change it now=) | 17:34 |
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| boris-42 | echoingumesh: ok it's great the end users find format simpler | 17:35 |
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| boris-42 | echoingumesh: it was as well one of the goal of refactoring format | 17:36 |
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| boris-42 | okay let's move | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | #topic Open Discussion | 17:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:37 | |
| boris-42 | Does somebody would like to discuss anything? | 17:37 |
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| amaretskiy | no | 17:37 |
| msdubov_ | I'd like just once again to point to the update in docs: https://review.openstack.org/156093 | 17:38 |
| msdubov_ | Maybe we can have it in the next release as well | 17:38 |
| msdubov_ | That would be nice | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: uuuuu | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: big one | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: I will take a look | 17:38 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42: Actually not =) Mostly pictures + copy-paste of your blog post | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: ok I will take a look | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: btw we should add as well step | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: related to using templated task | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: maybe I will put some kind of new blogpost | 17:39 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42:Agree | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: and you will just port it=) | 17:39 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42: But let's not have too many steps | 17:40 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42: Better no more than 10 | 17:40 |
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| boris-42 | So regarding to steps I think we should have | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | guide for various stuss | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | "rally verfiy step by step" "rally benchmarking step by step" | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | and so on | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | #topic new Reports | 17:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "new Reports (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:46 | |
| boris-42 | #topic new reports generation stuff | 17:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "new reports generation stuff (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:46 | |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: hi | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: any updated to graphs? | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: where they will be? | 17:46 |
| amaretskiy | I have submitted new patches regarding reports last week | 17:47 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: they were -1 by me | 17:47 |
| andreykurilin_ | link please) | 17:47 |
| amaretskiy | so big work was splitted into 2 patches | 17:47 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: or? | 17:47 |
| amaretskiy | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159458/ | 17:47 |
| amaretskiy | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/146814/ | 17:47 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: when you are going to do it normal way?) | 17:47 |
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| amaretskiy | this week | 17:47 |
| amaretskiy | i'm currently finishing another patch + reviewing | 17:48 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: okay please try to avoid unclear stuff in code | 17:48 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: if it is possible | 17:48 |
| amaretskiy | so I'm going to update these patches till friday | 17:48 |
| amaretskiy | okay | 17:48 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: ok | 17:48 |
| andreykurilin_ | boris-42: I hava a one question) | 17:49 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: regarding to reports? | 17:49 |
| andreykurilin_ | no | 17:49 |
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| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: ok | 17:49 |
| boris-42 | #topic Open Discussion | 17:49 |
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| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: so? | 17:49 |
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| andreykurilin_ | boris-42: Am I right thath we are waiting for https://review.openstack.org/#/c/155225/ ? After this patch will be merged, new veriosn of rally will be released? | 17:50 |
| andreykurilin_ | or what additional changes you want to see in 0.2.0 ? | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: this one is the most important | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: others are just nice to have | 17:51 |
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| andreykurilin_ | :) | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: so when we merge that patch | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: I will cut new version | 17:51 |
| andreykurilin_ | boris-42: ok, I'll start reviewing it, right now:) | 17:51 |
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| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: great I am going to re-review it as well | 17:52 |
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| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: I need to test it one more time by hands | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | =) | 17:52 |
| andreykurilin_ | heh | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: by the way it will be nice to fix py34 as well | 17:53 |
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| boris-42 | =) | 17:53 |
| andreykurilin_ | boris-42: yes | 17:53 |
| andreykurilin_ | but this change need more time | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: okay then in next release | 17:53 |
| andreykurilin_ | I want to test Rally in py31,py32,py33 envs | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: I think that can be done in next release | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: for now just add support for py34 | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | step by step | 17:54 |
| andreykurilin_ | boris-42: okey | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: so okay | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | any other questions? | 17:54 |
| andreykurilin_ | boris-42: btw, how we can automate checking py31,py32,py33 ? | 17:54 |
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| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: we can use Rally Mirantis CI for that | 17:55 |
| andreykurilin_ | imo, there are no reasons to have separate jobs for each env | 17:55 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: so we can have one job that has everything | 17:55 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: but actually we don't need | 17:55 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: because redixin is using lxc containers | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: so it's similar to create new job or run everything inside one job | 17:56 |
| andreykurilin_ | boris-42: okey | 17:56 |
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| boris-42 | okay | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | let's end meeting cause I have to go=) | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | see you guys | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 17:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:57 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Mar 3 17:57:24 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:57 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-03-03-17.06.html | 17:57 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-03-03-17.06.txt | 17:57 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-03-03-17.06.log.html | 17:57 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, ayoung, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods, amakarov, ajayaa, hogepodge, breton, lhcheng, nonameentername, samueldmq, htruta, amolock, wanghong, fmarco76 https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 17:58 |
| ayoung | Heyo | 17:58 |
| raildo | o/ | 17:58 |
| marekd | o/ | 17:58 |
| morganfainberg | it's that time of the week again. | 17:58 |
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| amakarov | o/ | 17:58 |
| tmcpeak1 | o/ | 17:58 |
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| morganfainberg | lots of people on that list not in this channel. | 17:59 |
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| gyee | \o | 17:59 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: could do some cleaning | 17:59 |
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| rodrigods | o/ | 17:59 |
| topol | o/ | 17:59 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: is the agenda up to date? | 17:59 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, it is now | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | ok so. here we go | 18:00 |
| tmcpeak1 | I had added a Bandit item | 18:00 |
| tmcpeak1 | I think it might have just been removed | 18:00 |
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| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, i moved it to the main agenda | 18:00 |
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| henrynash | hi | 18:00 |
| tmcpeak1 | cool, gotcha | 18:00 |
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| morganfainberg | #Startmeeting Keystone | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | oh.. | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | #atartmeeting Keystone | 18:01 |
| marekd | :) | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | #startmeeting Keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Mar 3 18:01:08 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
| amakarov | morganfainberg, you made it! | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Bandit - a security focused static code analysis tool | 18:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Bandit - a security focused static code analysis tool (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| bknudson | hi | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | lets just get right into it | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1 o/ | 18:01 |
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| tmcpeak1 | hi all, I'm tmcpeak - I usually hang out in #openstack-security | 18:01 |
| ayoung | Can you do Static analysis on Python? | 18:01 |
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| tmcpeak1 | sure | 18:01 |
| ayoung | tmcpeak1, lies | 18:01 |
| ayoung | Ha | 18:02 |
| tmcpeak1 | lmao | 18:02 |
| tmcpeak1 | well | 18:02 |
| * ayoung jaded | 18:02 | |
| tmcpeak1 | kinda | 18:02 |
| tmcpeak1 | :D | 18:02 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, i can look at code in python... thats the same thing right? :P | 18:02 |
| tmcpeak1 | so for those that haven't heard of Bandit, it's here | 18:02 |
| gyee | just use the @deprecation tag :) | 18:02 |
| * stevemar sneaks in late | 18:02 | |
| * morganfainberg quiets up for tmcpeak1 to continue. | 18:02 | |
| tmcpeak1 | https://github.com/stackforge/bandit | 18:02 |
| topol | static analysis for python must be tough with all the dynamic binding | 18:02 |
| tmcpeak1 | #link https://github.com/stackforge/bandit | 18:02 |
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| tmcpeak1 | and #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Security/Projects/Bandit | 18:03 |
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| tmcpeak1 | so basically the idea here is to call attention to low hanging fruit in code that is checked in | 18:03 |
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| tmcpeak1 | we have about 40 tests | 18:03 |
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| ayoung | tmcpeak1, I assume that this is being run against Keystone, and any weaknesses found will be treated as a security bug until triaged? | 18:03 |
| tmcpeak1 | so far, many of them are very very noisy | 18:03 |
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| tmcpeak1 | yes, so the reason I'm here is that I'd like Keystone to volunteer to run Bandit in a gate | 18:03 |
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| tmcpeak1 | bknudson expressed some interest in this | 18:04 |
| dolphm | tmcpeak1: as in, false positives? | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | tmcpeak1, hmmm | 18:04 |
| ayoung | Gate is the wrong place | 18:04 |
| joesavak | o/ : ) | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | we don't want to publically announce any problems | 18:04 |
| tmcpeak1 | so the profile that I've made for Keystone is conservative and currently doesn't have any results | 18:04 |
| bknudson | I've been working on a tox env -- https://review.openstack.org/#/c/157930/ | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | here's the issue | 18:04 |
| tmcpeak1 | ayoung: these are publicly available anyway, Bandit is opensource | 18:04 |
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| bknudson | the point of putting it in the gate is to stop bad code getting in to begin with. | 18:04 |
| ayoung | lets say Bandit gets smart about some new problem | 18:04 |
| tmcpeak1 | you can just pull it down and find the same thing the gate test finds | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | and the gate now announces to the world :Keystone has vuln X | 18:05 |
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| tmcpeak1 | yeah, but that is very publicly available anyway | 18:05 |
| ayoung | tmcpeak1, not really | 18:05 |
| dolphm | tmcpeak1: it sounds like you're implying we have violations against the full suite of tests? | 18:05 |
| tmcpeak1 | any attacker would already have access to that information | 18:05 |
| marekd | after the vuln is fixed and commited | 18:05 |
| ayoung | tmcpeak1, this should be run, but.... | 18:05 |
| tmcpeak1 | dolphm: yeah, the full suite of tests include some very noisy ones that need to be tuned | 18:05 |
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| ayoung | OK...so it would be something like this: | 18:06 |
| lbragstad | what about publishing those results to a private page? | 18:06 |
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| ayoung | 1. run it privately, file bugs, get Keystone as secure as Bandit can say | 18:06 |
| tmcpeak1 | I've created a bandit config file for use with Keystone | 18:06 |
| tmcpeak1 | http://pastebin.com/SeBkRvCS | 18:06 |
| tmcpeak1 | #link http://pastebin.com/SeBkRvCS | 18:06 |
| bknudson | the plan is to have bandit work very similar to pep8 | 18:06 |
| tmcpeak1 | please check out that link | 18:06 |
| ayoung | 2. No upgrades to Bandit in Gate until private runs have the same level of fix | 18:06 |
| bknudson | as with pep8, a new bandit wouldn't be run against keystone in the gate without a requirements bump. | 18:06 |
| ayoung | tmcpeak1, you understand my concern? | 18:07 |
| tmcpeak1 | ayoung: absolutely | 18:07 |
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| ayoung | We do things like this internally, too. We run tools like Valgrind etc. And this is fantastic | 18:07 |
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| morganfainberg | this means bandit would need to be locked separately from requirements | 18:07 |
| tmcpeak1 | so with what in my opinion is a sensible profile, Keystone already has no vulnerabliities | 18:07 |
| tmcpeak1 | here's output of recentish Keystone | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | since global reqs overrides requirements.txt | 18:07 |
| ayoung | but we don't publish the results. We consume them internally and fix | 18:07 |
| tmcpeak1 | #link http://pastebin.com/U0Fpjar1 | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, i'm running it locally right now on keystone fwiw | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | ;) | 18:07 |
| dstanek | sorry - here now. traffic was a killer | 18:07 |
| tmcpeak1 | morganfainberg: oh cool, you're already using it? | 18:08 |
| tmcpeak1 | so yeah, some of the tests in the full suite generate *tons* of false positives | 18:08 |
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| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, just ran it | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, took me 30 seconds to enable | 18:08 |
| tmcpeak1 | the idea with the profile I pasted above is that it will really only flag things you don't want in your code | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | so, i see sqla issues and complaining about popen | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | mostly | 18:08 |
| tmcpeak1 | morganfainberg: use the above linked profile please | 18:09 |
| ayoung | popen is awesome! | 18:09 |
| tmcpeak1 | sql tests are noisy | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | and binding to all interfaces (desired) | 18:09 |
| dolphm | tmcpeak1: please be clear - you're suggesting that there's no value in reporting the violations that bandit is currently seeing in keystone? | 18:09 |
| bknudson | earlier it found a problem where regular random was used, so I posted a fix for that: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/157990/ | 18:09 |
| tmcpeak1 | dolphm: no, not at all. I'd like to see folks using Bandit on a regular (manual) basis to close bugs | 18:09 |
| tmcpeak1 | I also see value in an automated gate process which prevents egregious checkins | 18:09 |
| tmcpeak1 | please see this | 18:09 |
| bknudson | and it also complained about the use of 0.0.0.0 for default bind host: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/157975/ | 18:09 |
| tmcpeak1 | (before I put this, please note this is all publicly available info, I'm not disclosing 0 days) | 18:10 |
| bknudson | but I didn't have tmcpeak1's profile. | 18:10 |
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| tmcpeak1 | #link http://pastebin.com/G7iVFGZD | 18:10 |
| tmcpeak1 | bknudson: I just made it this morning :) | 18:10 |
| tmcpeak1 | we'd like to prevent this kind of code from getting into Keystone | 18:10 |
| bknudson | just be glad we're not trove. | 18:10 |
| raildo | l | 18:11 |
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| ljfisher | ayoung, so presumably something real caught in a gate test wouldn’t actually get merged until fixed. Would you still consider that a vulnerability in Keystone even if it hasn’t been merged? (I’ve also been hacking on Bandit) | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | so tmcpeak1 , with that profile i see no violations? | 18:11 |
| tmcpeak1 | yeah, here's an output of Keystone with that profile | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | ljfisher, the concern isn't new code. we agree that is fine | 18:11 |
| tmcpeak1 | command to run Bandit against Keystone with verbose profile: bandit -c keystone.yaml -p keystone_verbose ~/Documents/projects/keystone/ -r | 18:11 |
| tmcpeak1 | Keystone Bandit conservative run: http://pastebin.com/U0Fpjar1 | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | ljfisher, the issue is old code when bandit gets smarter | 18:12 |
| ayoung | ljfisher, so my concern is that we need to know about new vulnerabilities before they show up in the gate. My concner is not with changes, but existing code. So...I think this is OK... | 18:12 |
| tmcpeak1 | morganfainberg: for the gate we are pinning a version | 18:12 |
| ayoung | but we need to have additional review done when Bandit gets update | 18:12 |
| tmcpeak1 | new Bandit functionality won't change your gate | 18:12 |
| tmcpeak1 | you'll pin to a version, and chose when to update | 18:12 |
| tmcpeak1 | same as you do with other dependancies | 18:12 |
| ayoung | pinning version is good | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, pins in requirements.txt are overriden by global requirements | 18:12 |
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| morganfainberg | FYI | 18:12 |
| nonameentername | o/ | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | you can't pin in requirements.txt | 18:12 |
| tmcpeak1 | the pin will go into global requirements | 18:12 |
| ayoung | M y concern is not Keystone, but Bandit. Before Bandit posts a new update...we'd want to know what it caught. | 18:13 |
| bknudson | the pin for hacking is handled differently. | 18:13 |
| bknudson | it's not automatically updated. | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, we'd need this to fall into that same category then | 18:13 |
| ayoung | OK...Gate is a red herring. I have no problem with running Bandit in gate | 18:13 |
| tmcpeak1 | cool :) | 18:14 |
| tmcpeak1 | ayoung: you still concerned about vulns though? | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, yeah i'd be fine with this being an additional check - i'd like this to not be lumped into pep8 though | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, if infra doesn't mine i'd like to see this as a specific job | 18:14 |
| tmcpeak1 | morganfainberg: same, I'd like it to be a separate job | 18:14 |
| tmcpeak1 | yeah | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | if there are concerns from infra we can put it in pep8 | 18:14 |
| ayoung | What we do need is to know about new classes of vulnerabilities before we make the tool general available. And that is not just a Keystone issue | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | but my opinion is 1st go w/ separate job | 18:14 |
| bknudson | the requirements for this job are different than pep8 | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, exactly | 18:15 |
| bknudson | since bandit doesn't need all the test-requirements like pep8 does. | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | and having it clearly be a separate failure would be very good. | 18:15 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:15 |
| dolphm | tmcpeak1: have you successfully used bandit to identify and fix actual vulnerabilities? | 18:15 |
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| tmcpeak1 | ayoung: I definitely hear what you're saying. Another piece which I'm not mentioning here because it isn't directly related to my gate test mission is getting people to use it against their own projects | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, so i'm not opposed to this being enabled for keystone. | 18:15 |
| tmcpeak1 | dolphm: absolutely. One place I've had great success is trove | 18:15 |
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| tmcpeak1 | let me dig up one for you | 18:16 |
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| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, i assume the .yaml will be hosted in keystone's tree [for sanity sake] | 18:16 |
| tmcpeak1 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/trove/+bug/1349939 | 18:16 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1349939 in Trove "Multiple vulnerabilities in Couchbase implementation of restore strategy" [Critical,Fix released] - Assigned to Amrith (amrith) | 18:16 |
| tmcpeak1 | so this bug in Trove was… really bad | 18:16 |
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| morganfainberg | not that i expect ot be changing it a bunch, but to save you a headache of updating. | 18:16 |
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| tmcpeak1 | I found this using Bandit and then tracing through the code | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | for every project in the future. | 18:17 |
| ayoung | tmcpeak1, this has the potential to be a Pandora's box. But the box is already open I guess. | 18:17 |
| tmcpeak1 | this would have resulted in VMT process if Trove had been in production already | 18:17 |
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| bknudson | no OSSA only because it was in master. | 18:17 |
| bknudson | so it caught a bug before release. | 18:17 |
| tmcpeak1 | morganfainberg: yes, I'd really like for each project to maintain their own profile | 18:17 |
| bknudson | so... thanks! | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, cool | 18:17 |
| tmcpeak1 | ayoung: yeah, box is open :) | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, so step 1 for Keystone, - experimental job in gate, lets get the keystone tree in shape for this, step 2 - non-vote, once we're happy - voting | 18:18 |
| tmcpeak1 | cool, so I didn't want to take up all your time | 18:18 |
| amrith | tmcpeak1, the bug you mention has been fixed in trove, yes? | 18:19 |
| amrith | I remember doing it a while ago. | 18:19 |
| tmcpeak1 | morganfainberg: perfect | 18:19 |
| tmcpeak1 | amrith: yeah, you fixed it | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, ping me when you have the reviews to change project-config up, i'll +1 them as needed | 18:19 |
| amrith | tmcpeak1, thx | 18:19 |
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| bknudson | we need an official release of bandit, also. | 18:19 |
| tmcpeak1 | morganfainberg: perfect, thank you | 18:19 |
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| morganfainberg | lets make sure bandit is released/in pypi etc | 18:19 |
| tmcpeak1 | yeah, there are a couple of more steps we need, but I'll be reaching out to a few of you to push this along when we're ready | 18:20 |
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| tmcpeak1 | want to make sure the user (your) experience is rock-solid | 18:20 |
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| bknudson | so it's going to be clean to begin with | 18:20 |
| dolphm | tmcpeak1: i just hope it doesn't prove to be a noisey tool spewing false positives at every contributor & reviewer | 18:20 |
| bknudson | any new changes will eventually go through bandit | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, thanks. and make sure you get the experimental stuff in infra first, so we can do "check expirimental" as we implement the yaml etc in our tree | 18:20 |
| bknudson | and if it's flagging things we need to decide if it's a false positive. | 18:20 |
| tmcpeak1 | dolphm: if it is, we (Bandit team) have completely failed. We're going to test the crap out of it before we ask you guys to use it | 18:21 |
| dolphm | tmcpeak1: is there a feature similar to # noqa for flake8 ? | 18:21 |
| bknudson | There's a #nosec comment you can put on a line to tell bandit to ignore it. | 18:21 |
| tmcpeak1 | ^ :) | 18:21 |
| tmcpeak1 | our goal is not to have you guys using #nosec to get it to shut up | 18:21 |
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| tmcpeak1 | nosec should basically be like "yeah we understand this isn't good from security but it's really ok because xyz" | 18:22 |
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| morganfainberg | there are cases we need to noqa | 18:22 |
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| morganfainberg | there will be limited cases to nosec | 18:22 |
| dolphm | tmcpeak1: i'd expect a small handful of legitimate # nosec with explanations | 18:22 |
| tmcpeak1 | I've found bugs like that before too.. In nova they were generating a session ID in an uncryptographically safe way, turns out it didn't matter | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | but those will be the exception to the rule | 18:22 |
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| tmcpeak1 | so that's a perfect use for #nosec followed by a comment about why it doesn't matter | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, ok i look forward to seeing this become available. | 18:23 |
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| tmcpeak1 | the Nova guys actually had pushed a comment explaining why it isn't a security risk, so next guy doesn't come and panic about uncrypto session ID | 18:23 |
| tmcpeak1 | cool, sounds good! | 18:23 |
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| dolphm | tmcpeak1: # nosec should require an inline comment at least! | 18:23 |
| tmcpeak1 | definitely | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, yeah was just going to suggest that | 18:24 |
| dolphm | tmcpeak1: # nosec: {why} | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | make it so #nosec can't be just bare on the line | 18:24 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:24 |
| tmcpeak1 | yeah, that's an awesome idea | 18:24 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: although you probably need more than just an inline comment to justify such a "why" | 18:24 |
| tmcpeak1 | I'll add that to our dev list :) | 18:24 |
| tmcpeak1 | yeah, they're probably going to be somewhat involved | 18:25 |
| tmcpeak1 | honestly with current #nosec handling I'm not sure the best way to do it, but I agree we should require something | 18:25 |
| dolphm | tmcpeak1: maybe # nosec requires a comment on the preceeding line? | 18:25 |
| tmcpeak1 | we're dealing with AST and tying together multi-line comments is… at least a little challenging | 18:25 |
| tmcpeak1 | I'll throw it on our backlog though | 18:26 |
| dolphm | tmcpeak1: that's the fun! | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, dolphm throws down the gauntlet... ;) | 18:26 |
| tmcpeak1 | and in the mean time we can have project reviewers throw liberal -1's for promiscuous #nosec usage | 18:26 |
| tmcpeak1 | it shall be done :D | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | ok so we'll look for the infra changes and then the stuff to make bandit a reality | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | tmcpeak1, thanks! | 18:27 |
| tmcpeak1 | sounds great! | 18:27 |
| tmcpeak1 | thanks all | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Specs that will need Feature Freeze Exceptions (FFE) and/or be delayed until Liberty | 18:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs that will need Feature Freeze Exceptions (FFE) and/or be delayed until Liberty (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:27 | |
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| morganfainberg | So, it's that sad time of the cycle | 18:27 |
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| bknudson | :( | 18:27 |
| rodrigods | :( | 18:27 |
| raildo | :( | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | time to punt things to either FFE or next cycle | 18:27 |
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| morganfainberg | #link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/kilo-3 | 18:27 |
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| stevemar | i never understood why this is a sad time... it'll go in a few week later is all :P | 18:28 |
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| morganfainberg | currently on the chopping block [for FFE unless it is gating today, no particular order]: x509, Domain-SQL, Reseller, Improve list role assignments filtering performance | 18:28 |
| henrynash | So I really want to keep domain specific configs in Kilo….we are doing pretty well on reviews…but not sure all will get in by the 5th | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | if those are not gating today, they are getting a -2 (procedural) and require a FFE after k3 cuts, or a delay to liberty | 18:29 |
| stevemar | fwiw i do think the domain-sql stuff is close | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | i think domain-sql is the best option for FFE, reseller is a close second | 18:29 |
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| morganfainberg | the others i'm not optimistic they will be accepted for FFE | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | remember FFE isn't just us, keystone-core | 18:30 |
| marekd | there is also this https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack/?searchtext=idp-id-registration | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | it's also rel-mngmt | 18:30 |
| marekd | and review that is held off by a bug. | 18:30 |
| rodrigods | for reseller, we need more eyes on it though, 0 reviews so far | 18:30 |
| rodrigods | we are about to send the last change of the chain | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, and that one i think will be pushed | 18:31 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, as much as i'd like to see it. | 18:31 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: assuming the reviewers are happy with my updates, the core underpinnings of domain-SQL may well be gating today, not just the “switch on” at the top | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, and thats why i said gating today | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | if it's gating actively, we'll make sure it lands | 18:32 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: me too, i wanted to discuss it later (post-meeting) | 18:32 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: ok, agreed | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | if it isn't lets plan a FFE | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | that one the FFE would be "yeah we couldn't land this in k3, but it's ready to go" | 18:32 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: agreed | 18:32 |
| stevemar | henrynash, i'll take another look at your stuff today, but i looked at the comments you had made and i think you addressed all my concerns | 18:33 |
| henrynash | stevemar: great, thx | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | other than that. | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | i have nothing else for the meeting | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Open Discussion | 18:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:33 | |
| marekd | ok, so maybe i can use some of this time? | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | go for it | 18:34 |
| ayoung | henrynash, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/160872/3 make a stand alone patch and I'd be ahppy to +2A it | 18:34 |
| ayoung | if depends on Add API support for domain config and there is no need for that | 18:34 |
| stevemar | ayoung, i'll rebase it on master and we can push it through? | 18:34 |
| marekd | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152156/ this review is actually kind of blocked, it passes the unittests but will probably explode with mysql | 18:34 |
| ayoung | stevemar, go for it | 18:34 |
| henrynash | ayoung: true..but then the follow on patches can’t depend on two things | 18:34 |
| marekd | do every devstack installation following master | 18:34 |
| marekd | the bug is here: | 18:34 |
| ayoung | henrynash, reverse the order | 18:35 |
| marekd | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1426334 | 18:35 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1426334 in Keystone "DB migration problem with federation extension" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Marco Fargetta (marco-fargetta) | 18:35 |
| ayoung | put the trivial changes at the front of the patch-stack | 18:35 |
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| henrynash | ayoung: ok….yes, I’ll push it to the front, ++ | 18:35 |
| marekd | and as i talked with Marco, adding a migration script will not help | 18:35 |
| ayoung | thanks | 18:35 |
| stevemar | henrynash, hit that cherry pick button | 18:35 |
| marekd | as sanity_check in oslo_db will raise an exception. | 18:35 |
| raildo | If someone want review the reseller patches :) | 18:35 |
| raildo | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/keystone+branch:master+topic:bp/reseller,n,z | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, and marco has done some work there. | 18:36 |
| henrynash | stevemar: it’s standalne, justa reorder of dependant pacthes | 18:36 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, i think we need docstrings for his fix and a bug against oslo to reference | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, my major complaint with his patch | 18:36 |
| marekd | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159803/5/keystone/common/sql/migration_helpers.py ? | 18:36 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ^^ | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | though the code could probably be claeaned up some | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, yeah | 18:36 |
| bknudson | I wonder why the db migration problem doesn't show up in the gate? | 18:36 |
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| marekd | sqlite maybe ? | 18:37 |
| stevemar | bknudson, ^ | 18:37 |
| marekd | or theu use mysql? | 18:37 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: oh, i see, he is esentually recreating all the tables | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, because the gate default assumes utf-8 iinodb | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | this is a case where someone has misconfigured their mysql then pushed in keystone | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | then get wedged | 18:38 |
| marekd | but if healthy actually? it may move lots of data in some rare cases. | 18:38 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: I thought they changed the gate defaults just to catch this | 18:38 |
| * jamielennox sneaks in the back | 18:38 | |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, clearly not :P | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | or we did something wonky | 18:39 |
| bknudson | we've made fixes in the past to set tables to InnoDB | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | the issue here is it related to FKs. so it's ugly | 18:40 |
| bknudson | I don't think we've tried to fix the charset. | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, we did, migraiton 37 | 18:40 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: for the utf-8 patch we would then need to remove 001, 002 files | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | migration* | 18:40 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, no, we fix them in-place as we have then we do the exceptional case when it's broken to catch anyone who's run them | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, look at the _Fix_migration_37 example | 18:40 |
| stevemar | this is all sorts of ugly | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | it's not pretty but it unwedges the deployer | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | but we need to figure out how to catch this earlier. | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | maybe a hacking check to ensure table definitions in migrations have innodb/utf8? | 18:41 |
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| morganfainberg | or a way to make the sanity check less sane in an exceptional case so it can be fixed. | 18:41 |
| bknudson | we do have test already for table structure | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, but not in migration. | 18:42 |
| bknudson | and I think there's a "live" test for innodb. | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | yeah. anyway this needs some eyes to maek sure we solve it this time ;) | 18:42 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: where is that _Fix_migration_37 ? | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | in migration_helpers | 18:43 |
| bknudson | marekd: line 142 | 18:43 |
| bknudson | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159803/5/keystone/common/sql/migration_helpers.py | 18:43 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/common/sql/migration_helpers.py#L142-L181 | 18:44 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ok, i will add a docstring | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | so i think we could make that code in marco's patch better by dropping the FK constraints and, fixing the table, and re-adding the constraints | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | rather than recreating the tables | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | less data mangling involved | 18:45 |
| marekd | this need to be done all today? | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, that is a bug | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | that can happen anytime it lands | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | the dependant BP can't land until afterwards and might be FFE *or* just pushed until liberty | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | so i'd say fix the bug, ask for FFE if we want that in kilo | 18:47 |
| marekd | ++ | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | but start with the bug fix, which can land anytime before rc [sooner *is* better] | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | anything else? | 18:48 |
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| morganfainberg | before we close up the meeting and let infra have the channel early? | 18:48 |
| marekd | how do i ask for FFE? ml-thread? | 18:48 |
| marekd | with some explanation | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, yeah | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | why this should land in Kilo, why it wasn't able to land before FF, what the status of the code is | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | etc | 18:49 |
| marekd | sure. | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | ok enjoy your spare 10minutes! | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | go get a cup of coffee :) | 18:49 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: remind me, do we ship python-keystoneclient with the serber or separately? | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, you probably need the coffee | 18:49 |
| henrynash | (server even) | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, separate, but we try and do a final release around RC | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: i could have stayed in bed :) | 18:49 |
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| henrynash | morganfainberg: ok | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | that is the releasr that ships with the named integrated release | 18:50 |
| marekd | jamielennox: it's....4am now? | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | also expect a new ksm / ksc to go out shortly into march here | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | no, nearly 6 - sydney time now | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | i'll be bugging people for ksc reviews and ksm stuff if we have something to release. | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | post k3 that is | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | thanks everyone! | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | #endmeeting | 18:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:50 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Mar 3 18:50:58 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:51 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-03-03-18.01.html | 18:51 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-03-03-18.01.txt | 18:51 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-03-03-18.01.log.html | 18:51 |
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| tchaypo | Woo | 18:58 |
| GheRivero | o/ | 18:58 |
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| jeblair | howdy infra folks | 19:00 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:00 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:00 |
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| mrmartin | o/ | 19:00 |
| clarkb | hi | 19:00 |
| mmedvede | o/ | 19:00 |
| ianw | o/ | 19:00 |
| asselin | o/ | 19:00 |
| AJaeger_ | o/ | 19:00 |
| TheJulia | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Tue Mar 3 19:01:10 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
| jeblair | i'm listening to mordred speak at the board meeting right now, so i expect limited input from him... | 19:01 |
| anteaya | o/ | 19:01 |
| * jeblair turns down the volume | 19:01 | |
| timrc | o/ | 19:01 |
| greghaynes | O/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-24-19.01.html | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| jeblair | mordred create openstackinfra account on puppetforge | 19:01 |
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| jeblair | so, anyone know if that happened? :) | 19:02 |
| anteaya | I do not | 19:02 |
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| jesusaurus | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | yes it has! | 19:03 |
| anteaya | yay | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | the password is recorded in hiera | 19:03 |
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| nibalizer | woot | 19:03 |
| jeblair | so we can proceed with publishing our puppet modules via that account | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | nibalizer: i think that means a bunch of little patches to each of the puppet repos, right? | 19:04 |
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| nibalizer | couple things | 19:04 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 19:04 |
| nibalizer | we need to manually create the module on the forge web app, and we need to enable the publishing job on each of the modules | 19:04 |
| nibalizer | I think the metadata.json in each of our modules is good enough that we don't have to make changes there | 19:05 |
| nibalizer | we shall see | 19:05 |
| anteaya | can we decide on a module to test this workflow? | 19:05 |
| jeblair | nibalizer: okay, how about we work through one of the modules first, then go from there | 19:05 |
| nibalizer | sounds good | 19:05 |
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| jesusaurus | ++ | 19:05 |
| jeblair | http? | 19:05 |
| nibalizer | i nominate openstackinfra-httpd | 19:05 |
| jeblair | nibalizer: excellent ;) | 19:05 |
| nibalizer | oh, yes, if we're changing to openstackinfra then we need a small change to each module | 19:05 |
| jeblair | #action jeblair nibalizer work through openstackinfra-httpd publishing | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
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| jeblair | so one thing i was thinking we should do to streamline the priority efforts part of this is to nominate a gerrit topic for each effort and use that for all related changes | 19:07 |
| jeblair | we've been doing this partially and ad-hoc recently.... | 19:07 |
| anteaya | oh I like that | 19:07 |
| jeblair | and asselin actually put that in some of his specs | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | which i also think is a good idea | 19:07 |
| jesusaurus | that makes a lot of sense | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | so maybe as we go through these today, let's pick a topic, and i'll make sure it's in the wiki for reference | 19:07 |
| asselin | cool. I can add that to the spec template then | 19:07 |
| jeblair | asselin: ++ thanks | 19:07 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Swift logs) | 19:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Swift logs) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:08 | |
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| jeblair | it looks like "enable_swift" is being used as a topic for this | 19:09 |
| clarkb | I got the concurrent swift uploads change merged and onto our images. d-g log uploads take ~2 minutes now which is much better than before | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | #info Gerrit topic: enable_swift | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: how does that compare to scp? | 19:09 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:enable_swift,n,z | 19:10 |
| clarkb | jeblair: they are about equal now. I think scp may take a bit longer actually | 19:10 |
| clarkb | though scp is doing all the uploads serially so could be made faster if necesary | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | so it seems like there should be no reason to hold off on approving those changes to start rolling this out more widely | 19:11 |
| jeblair | yeah? | 19:11 |
| anteaya | I don't have a reason to hold off | 19:12 |
| AJaeger_ | go for it! | 19:12 |
| clarkb | ya I think we can start making it more widely available | 19:12 |
| clarkb | there is a change to support globbing though we will need that for some of the jobs iirc | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/158514/ | 19:13 |
| jeblair | cool, so let's land that, then continue | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) | 19:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:13 | |
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| jeblair | looks like 'dib-nodepool' is being used here, at least partially | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | #info Gerrit topic: dib-nodepool | 19:14 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:dib-nodepool,n,z | 19:14 |
| jeblair | though nothing there atm | 19:14 |
| clarkb | next steps are fungi's bindep change to condense the number of images we need and the move of nodepool to using shade | 19:15 |
| clarkb | both are in progress but not quite ready aiui | 19:15 |
| jeblair | ah, and we should also see about adopting bindep into infra | 19:15 |
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| anteaya | I asked about that | 19:15 |
| jeblair | how was the reception? | 19:15 |
| anteaya | neither fungi or lifeless wanted to move forward on that | 19:15 |
| anteaya | the reception was a decided meh | 19:15 |
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| anteaya | so I left it | 19:15 |
| jeblair | oh, i thought lifeless was okay with it? | 19:16 |
| anteaya | if you want it, I can write the patch | 19:16 |
| anteaya | oh no obstacle | 19:16 |
| tchaypo | does “wanted to move forward” mean they didn’t want to spend the effort personally | 19:16 |
| anteaya | they jsut weren't going to do the work or support me if I did | 19:16 |
| tchaypo | or did they think it was a bad idea? | 19:16 |
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| anteaya | neight thought it was a bad idea | 19:16 |
| anteaya | or a good one | 19:16 |
| anteaya | since it wasn't mine to decide I walked away at that point | 19:17 |
| anteaya | if you want it jeblair I can write the patch | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | i think it's a good one since right now, there is only one core reviewer (who is not particularly engaged), and we're talking about making this a fairly important piece | 19:17 |
| jeblair | so i think we can give it a good home :) | 19:17 |
| anteaya | that was my thinking | 19:17 |
| anteaya | with your support, I will compose the patch | 19:18 |
| anteaya | feel free to toss me an action item to that effect | 19:18 |
| jeblair | sounds good | 19:18 |
| anteaya | or shall I? | 19:18 |
| jeblair | #action anteaya write patch to have infra adopt bindep; lifeless would remain in bindep-core, infra-core would be added; ask lifeless to review | 19:19 |
| anteaya | will do, thanks | 19:19 |
| jeblair | any other nodepool-dib things to discuss? | 19:19 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Migration to Zanata) | 19:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Migration to Zanata) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:20 | |
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| pleia2 | so, we made some progress this week on the module | 19:20 |
| jeblair | #info Gerrit topic: zanata | 19:20 |
| mrmartin | I had a quick review on the new patch | 19:21 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:zanata,n,z | 19:21 |
| mrmartin | so it has better dependencies now, but I still need to allocate some time for testing | 19:21 |
| pleia2 | and I realized I needed more help, so I'm meeting with cinerama tomorrow in person to get her up to speed with it (she's got a vagrant VM with the puppet stuff to test so far, woo) | 19:21 |
| anteaya | congrats pleia2 on having a unique one work gerrit topic | 19:21 |
| jeblair | pleia2, mrmartin: that's excellent news! | 19:21 |
| pleia2 | StevenK has also signed up to get the zanata client packaged | 19:21 |
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| mrmartin | pleai2: would you like to share this vagrant somewhere? | 19:21 |
| pleia2 | mrmartin: you'll want to talk to cinerama | 19:22 |
| mrmartin | I also have some vagrant scripts under the hood | 19:22 |
| pleia2 | I don't have it :) | 19:22 |
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| mrmartin | pleia2: I can put this out somewhere (github) and later we can merge it into the puppet module | 19:22 |
| pleia2 | mrmartin: I think that would be helpful | 19:22 |
| mrmartin | because actually it is not nice, but works some way :) | 19:22 |
| jeblair | that's our motto! | 19:22 |
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| pleia2 | I have been working with cloud VMs, but since there's now two people using vagrant to test it makes more sense to share | 19:23 |
| anteaya | that's our motto? | 19:23 |
| * anteaya takes notes | 19:23 | |
| pleia2 | so with the client packaging we're now trying to push forward on more fronts than just the puppet+server thing, which is good | 19:23 |
| pleia2 | that's all :) | 19:24 |
| jeblair | that's great! | 19:24 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet) | 19:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:24 | |
| mrmartin | you can use vagrant with cloud vm | 19:24 |
| jeblair | there were two specs for this, both approved now | 19:24 |
| pleia2 | great | 19:24 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/137471/ | 19:24 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/139745/ | 19:25 |
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| jeblair | how about 'downstream-puppet' for a topic? | 19:25 |
| jeblair | or openstackinfra-puppet? | 19:25 |
| jeblair | or perhaps openstackci-puppet? | 19:26 |
| anteaya | I vote for downstream-puppet | 19:26 |
| jeblair | #info Gerrit topic: downstream-puppet | 19:26 |
| nibalizer | cool | 19:26 |
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| nibalizer | oh cool these have merged | 19:26 |
| nibalizer | ill spin up an example implementation of 137471 this week | 19:27 |
| jeblair | oh | 19:27 |
| jeblair | actually the spec said "openstackci" as a topic | 19:27 |
| nibalizer | hardly specific, taht | 19:28 |
| anteaya | jeblair: okay | 19:28 |
| anteaya | what the spec said | 19:28 |
| * asselin pays attention | 19:28 | |
| jeblair | maybe let's change the spec | 19:28 |
| jesusaurus | i like downstream-puppet as a topic | 19:29 |
| jeblair | i'll do that | 19:29 |
| asselin | there are 2 specs. same topcic for both? | 19:29 |
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| anteaya | asselin: yeah, so we can address them in the same meeting topic | 19:29 |
| jeblair | asselin: i think so -- i think they are related enough that i'd like to treat them as one effort and try to get the same people reviewing them at the same time | 19:29 |
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| asselin | ok, no objection. just to be clear. | 19:30 |
| jeblair | i could be wrong about that, and if so, we can split it up later, but i think it's worth trying :) | 19:30 |
| asselin | +1 | 19:30 |
| jeblair | asselin: so is step 1 to create the new repo? | 19:31 |
| asselin | yes | 19:31 |
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| jeblair | sounds good. anything else to help get these started? | 19:31 |
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| anteaya | jeblair: write the govenance patch? | 19:32 |
| asselin | I think we can start with that | 19:32 |
| jeblair | anteaya: yeah, all part of 'create the repo' now :) | 19:32 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Askbot migration) | 19:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Askbot migration) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:32 | |
| anteaya | okay | 19:32 |
| mrmartin | for askbot, I assigned the tasks for storyboard to track progress: https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2000158 | 19:33 |
| jeblair | #info Gerrit topic: askbot-site | 19:33 |
| jeblair | mrmartin: yay! thanks! :) | 19:33 |
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| mrmartin | and and wrote some additional info to spec required for migration: https://review.openstack.org/160693 | 19:33 |
| mrmartin | and that's all, if https://review.openstack.org/140043 gets an approval, than | 19:34 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:askbot-site,n,z | 19:34 |
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| mrmartin | some involvment required from a core member, because most of the tasks requires some manual work | 19:34 |
| jeblair | that has a +2 from me, needs another infra-core to aprv | 19:34 |
| mrmartin | like instance launch, hiera setup, backup / recovery etc. | 19:34 |
| jeblair | mrmartin: yeah, once that lands, we'll find an infra-root to help with that | 19:35 |
| mrmartin | ok, so shortly this is the status | 19:35 |
| mrmartin | can I do anything to move forward things? | 19:35 |
| clarkb | I will try to do spec review after cleaning up new gerrit server | 19:35 |
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| jeblair | fyi https://review.openstack.org/140043 is a system-config change to actually add the server | 19:36 |
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| mrmartin | ok, so just a review of hiera variables required before approval | 19:37 |
| jeblair | mrmartin: if another infra-core hasn't reviewed it by the end of the week, let me know | 19:37 |
| mrmartin | ok, thnx | 19:37 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Upgrading Gerrit) | 19:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Upgrading Gerrit) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:37 | |
| jeblair | pleia2: did you set up the netcat? | 19:37 |
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| clarkb | no, pleia2 doesn't have a user on the system yet do to a puppet race during user creation that led to groups being wrong and overlapping for some users in bad ways | 19:38 |
| clarkb | I am going to fix that after the meeting | 19:38 |
| pleia2 | thanks clarkb :) | 19:38 |
| jeblair | oh ok. so real soon now. :) | 19:38 |
| pleia2 | yep | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #action pleia2 set up netcat hello-world on new gerrit port 29418 | 19:38 |
| jeblair | we should probably defer discussion of the upgrade date until next week | 19:39 |
| jeblair | #info april 11 and may 9 suggested as gerrit upgrade dates | 19:39 |
| jeblair | (just continuing that from last time) | 19:39 |
| anteaya | agreed would be nice to pick a time fungi can participate | 19:39 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: you don't have a user either :P | 19:39 |
| jeblair | zaro: anything else? | 19:39 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: you don't know what a relief that is | 19:40 |
| pleia2 | haha | 19:40 |
| jeblair | #topic Governance changes (jeblair) | 19:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Governance changes (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:40 | |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159936/ Remove py26 add py34 to PTI | 19:41 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159935/ Remove reference to Jenkins | 19:41 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159930/ IRC channel policies | 19:41 |
| jeblair | these are all probably worth a look and of some interest to infra folks | 19:41 |
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| jeblair | the first two are quite trivial | 19:41 |
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| jeblair | the third i wrote at the request of the tc in response to the recent community thread... | 19:42 |
| nibalizer | jeblair: are you going so far as to set the 'on join' message in chanserv? | 19:42 |
| jeblair | i think a lot of folks think that it would be simplest/best if all the irc channels are logged | 19:42 |
| jeblair | so that's a resolution to have the tc say that they think it should be the case | 19:42 |
| anteaya | I agree with the patches as written | 19:42 |
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| jeblair | and i've written somewhat vaguely so that we have some discretion about how to implement it | 19:42 |
| anteaya | I'm for vague at this point | 19:43 |
| jeblair | i think at a minimum we should enforce logging in project-config (could probably make it a gate check, but at least a human check for now) | 19:43 |
| anteaya | since more detail just means more policing/follow up for us | 19:43 |
| jeblair | and yes.. | 19:43 |
| jeblair | nibalizer: i think we should also do on join messages, and possibly figure out a way to get the log location into all the topics automatically | 19:43 |
| AJaeger_ | jeblair: in project-config? Logging is configured in system-config | 19:43 |
| anteaya | yeah that statement lost me as well | 19:44 |
| jeblair | AJaeger_: ha, indeed. :) | 19:44 |
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| anteaya | I thought we were discussing logging of irc channels | 19:44 |
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| * AJaeger_ cleaned up recently channels so that all channels in gerritbot get accessbot as well - that's one part of the story | 19:44 | |
| anteaya | AJaeger_: nice job | 19:45 |
| AJaeger_ | there're a couple of review - and I've learned from clarkb to check this during reviews ;) | 19:45 |
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| jeblair | i'm hoping to fix the fact that logging is not in project-config, but i don't have a plan written up yet, sorry. | 19:45 |
| anteaya | ah now I can follow that statement | 19:45 |
| jeblair | so yeah, we may need to do some cross-checking for a while | 19:45 |
| AJaeger_ | jeblair: once we move it over, we could gate that a channel is configured in all three places | 19:45 |
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| anteaya | do we care about channels that use openstack- but aren't represented in project-config in any way? | 19:46 |
| jeblair | AJaeger_: yeah. i'm hoping to make one config file | 19:46 |
| AJaeger_ | jeblair: What's the order? Merge in project-config only if change has been proposed for system-config? | 19:46 |
| anteaya | or system-config either | 19:46 |
| jeblair | AJaeger_: that sounds like a good starting point | 19:47 |
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| jeblair | and we'll work on making it simpler | 19:48 |
| * AJaeger_ reviews proposed changes again... | 19:48 | |
| jeblair | AJaeger_: heh, we could wait until the governance change lands before we start enforcing it | 19:49 |
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| jeblair | #topic Infra-cloud (jeblair) | 19:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Infra-cloud (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:49 | |
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| jeblair | so i briefly linked to the artifacts from this last week, but we ran out of time | 19:49 |
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| jeblair | #link summary email https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kBPiVfTsAP | 19:50 |
| jeblair | #link story https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2000175 | 19:50 |
| jeblair | #link etherpad https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/InfraCloudBootcamp | 19:50 |
| jeblair | this is just getting started, but i think the next step here is to write up the design documentation based on what we talked about in person | 19:50 |
| jeblair | and get that up for review | 19:50 |
| jeblair | is anyone interested in doing that? | 19:51 |
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| anteaya | you would need someone from the in person meeting to do that, yeah? | 19:51 |
| jeblair | anteaya: it would make the most sense. there's a lot of detail captured on the etherpad, but they would have more context to tie it together and fill in blanks | 19:51 |
| tchaypo | Interested, but wouldn’t be able to start on it until about the 16th, which is going to be almost a month after the midcycle | 19:52 |
| AJaeger_ | will that cloud be accessable for translators and documentation as reference? | 19:52 |
| pleia2 | re: Bikeshedding about ansible and puppet <-- did we actually decide? | 19:52 |
| pleia2 | installing and maintaining openstack is hard :) | 19:52 |
| greghaynes | heh, you dont have to tell the tripleoers that | 19:52 |
| tchaypo | pleia2: from memory, that wasn’t a “which should we use?” discussion, it was a “how do they mesh?” discussion | 19:52 |
| jeblair | pleia2: i think the consensus was strongly in favor of using the openstack puppet modules from stackforge | 19:52 |
| pleia2 | greghaynes: yep, that's where I got my experience | 19:53 |
| tchaypo | with perhaps a bit of ansible to kick off puppet runs | 19:53 |
| tchaypo | and orchestrate things | 19:53 |
| jeblair | tchaypo: right | 19:53 |
| jeblair | which is the general direction we're already heading | 19:53 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: so I spoke with crinkle about the puppet modules over the weekend (unrelated) and puppet-openstack isn't really a thing anymore, you sort of cobble together your own central openstack module and pull in the nova, neutron, etc | 19:53 |
| jeblair | AJaeger_: not sure i understand the question | 19:53 |
| crinkle | I don't recall in-depth discussion on puppet vs ansible, would like to see that hashed out a bit | 19:53 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:53 |
| pleia2 | crinkle: ++ | 19:54 |
| AJaeger_ | jeblair: the translation team has setup a "reference server" so that translators can look at horizon and figure out where and how strings are used and then write the proper translation | 19:54 |
| AJaeger_ | Suchc a reference would be usefull for documentation sometimes as well. | 19:54 |
| greghaynes | crinkle: ++ - I think we also had some false assumptions about the state of ansible openstack deploy tooling (which I discovered after playing with them this week). Maybe an ML thread is in order | 19:54 |
| jeblair | pleia2: makes sense; i imagine we will have machines that use the nova module, others that use glance, etc... | 19:54 |
| annegent_ | AJaeger_: ++ | 19:55 |
| pleia2 | anyway, I'd like to be involved with this | 19:55 |
| AJaeger_ | So, my question is whether translators and documentation writers will be able to access the cloud - or whether that's something totally different? | 19:55 |
| pleia2 | but I wasn't at the in person meeting, so maybe someone else leads here | 19:55 |
| jeblair | AJaeger_: it's not our primary goal, but if we get it up and running, perhaps we can figure out a way to do that later on. it's a good idea. | 19:55 |
| annegent_ | AJaeger_: jeblair: I often use Trystack and saw a similar possibility here. | 19:56 |
| jeblair | pleia2: i want you to be as well :) | 19:56 |
| tchaypo | What would translators and doc writers want to do in the cloud? | 19:56 |
| tchaypo | (I’m not questioning why they’d get access, I’m wanting to make sure we’re clear about how it would be useful so we can keep that in mind as we design) | 19:56 |
| mrmartin | tchaypo: testing use cases? | 19:56 |
| pleia2 | tchaypo: checking the state of translations in the horizon interface, how complete they are from a UI perspective | 19:57 |
| AJaeger_ | tchaypo: see http://docs.openstack.org/user-guide/ - that guide has a horizon section | 19:57 |
| AJaeger_ | Documentation editors need to verify that | 19:57 |
| jeblair | greghaynes: i'd like to get a proposal written up first before we start a list thread on something like that | 19:57 |
| AJaeger_ | And translators see a random string in horizon and need to figure out how to translate it | 19:57 |
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| jeblair | greghaynes: let's have a think we can specifically point to and change | 19:57 |
| annegent_ | tchaypo: for checking if horizon changed release-to-release | 19:57 |
| AJaeger_ | tchaypo: best to reach out to the openstack-i18n list | 19:57 |
| tchaypo | would they be wanting “go build a horizon for me with this new patchset” access, or just “let me see a recent horizon" | 19:57 |
| annegent_ | tchaypo: six month releases only | 19:58 |
| AJaeger_ | tchaypo: current horizon | 19:58 |
| annegent_ | tchaypo: otherwise I have to run a devstack on stable/release branches | 19:58 |
| tchaypo | okay | 19:58 |
| greghaynes | jeblair: Agreed, theres also a lot of things to do before we get to a point where we need to decide too | 19:58 |
| annegent_ | tchaypo: just to see the dashboard | 19:58 |
| tchaypo | thanks :) | 19:58 |
| AJaeger_ | tchaypo: the i18n team just deploys head daily AFAIK | 19:58 |
| annegent_ | tchaypo: thanks for asking about the use case :) | 19:58 |
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| pleia2 | jeblair: design documentation == spec? | 19:59 |
| jeblair | pleia2: normally i would say yes, however, in this case i think we could actually just write the documentation patch for system-config... | 19:59 |
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| jeblair | i think that will save some effort in the long run | 20:00 |
| jeblair | we can treat it like a spec in that we don't have to approve it until we agree that the documentation matches what we want :) | 20:00 |
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| pleia2 | makes sense | 20:00 |
| tchaypo | I’ve added a note to the bottom of https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kBPiVfTsAP summarsing what I understand of what we just said | 20:00 |
| tchaypo | feel free to make what I wrote match reality if it’s wrong | 20:01 |
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| jeblair | anyway, we have failed to get a volunteer for this. i will move on to alternate means unless someone pings me in channel. :) | 20:01 |
| jeblair | time's up, thanks all | 20:01 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Mar 3 20:01:38 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-03-03-19.01.html | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-03-03-19.01.txt | 20:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-03-03-19.01.log.html | 20:01 |
| ttx | Hola! | 20:01 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:01 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | We have a number of members half-present due to concurrent board meeting | 20:02 |
| russellb | o/ (but distracted by board meeting) | 20:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:02 |
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| annegent_ | here | 20:02 |
| jeblair | i would feel okay if we did not meet quorum under the circumstances... | 20:02 |
| ttx | jgriffith, mikal, mordred, vishy, jaypipes, sdague : around ? | 20:02 |
| vishy | o/ here but also in the board meeting | 20:03 |
| jgriffith | 0/ | 20:03 |
| ttx | we have quorum already | 20:03 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:03 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:03 |
| annegent_ | no one else wrote such an eloquent rsvp as mikal | 20:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Mar 3 20:03:17 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:03 |
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| ttx | I must admit that was an eloquent absence note | 20:03 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
| ttx | #topic openstack-specs final rubberstamping | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "openstack-specs final rubberstamping (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:04 | |
| jeblair | can i put forward a motion to postpone the meeting? | 20:04 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair: grounds? | 20:04 |
| jeblair | 20:02 < ttx> We have a number of members half-present due to concurrent board meeting | 20:04 |
| ttx | jeblair: err... I guess? But next week is the ops summit which a few of us will attend as well | 20:04 |
| ttx | jeblair: even counting half-present memebrs as absent we do have quorum though | 20:05 |
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| ttx | even if we don't count you | 20:05 |
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| annegent_ | quorum is quorum is quorum | 20:05 |
| jeblair | okay. i just wanted to throw it out there for discussion. | 20:05 |
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| jeblair | i see how it is, thanks | 20:06 |
| * russellb certainly ok with skipping, but biased | 20:06 | |
| dhellmann | perhaps we can try to avoid this sort of overlap in the future | 20:06 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: it's not as if that meeting occurred at this hour for the first time | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | I'd be ok with skipping, but I'm not sure we want to go 2 weeks without meeting | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | ttx: do we have anything pressing? | 20:06 |
| jgriffith | silly BOD, they know when we meet :) | 20:06 |
| markmcclain | jeblair: is there something on the agenda that perhaps we should delay if we feel that slim quorum is not representative enough for discusssion? | 20:06 |
| ttx | dhellmann: well, I'd like to make progress on a number of items, yes, especially if we skip next week | 20:07 |
| jeblair | markmcclain: perhaps not | 20:07 |
| russellb | what's next week | 20:07 |
| ttx | russellb: ops summit | 20:07 |
| russellb | ah | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | ttx: yes, and to be fair the folks on both committees could have raised that but we are where we are so I'm ok with discussing a delay | 20:07 |
| ttx | I think we have things to rubberstamp and we don't really need all members 100% attention to so that | 20:07 |
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| ttx | we have quorum so I'd prefer if we proceeded | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | ttx: sure, let's do the easy things first :-) | 20:08 |
| jeblair | okay. i'm okay with meeting today and next week. | 20:08 |
| ttx | so, rubberstamping | 20:08 |
| ttx | jeblair: if there is anything you think where the decision should be postponed, I'm fine doing thatr | 20:08 |
| ttx | But I seriously doubt there will be | 20:08 |
| jeblair | ttx: sounds like a plan | 20:08 |
| ttx | * Add TRACE definition to log guidelines (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145245) | 20:08 |
| ttx | I'd say this one has reached consensus and can be approved. | 20:08 |
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| ttx | feel free to pile up a few more +2s | 20:09 |
| ttx | we have 6 if sdague posts his | 20:09 |
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| sdague | ttx: well I wrote it | 20:10 |
| ttx | and 7 if markmcclain reposts his | 20:10 |
| sdague | so it seems rude to +2 | 20:10 |
| markmcclain | done | 20:10 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: I think your +2 is assumed there :-) | 20:10 |
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| ttx | Any last votes or comments before I +1 it ? | 20:10 |
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| ttx | ok, approved | 20:11 |
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| ttx | #topic Definition of the release:* tags | 20:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Definition of the release:* tags (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:11 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/157322 | 20:11 |
| ttx | So.. there are divergent views on what the tags should be named, and I'd like to converge on one | 20:11 |
| ttx | Original proposal was release:common, release:coordinated, release:compatible, release:free | 20:11 |
| ttx | annegentle suggested release:independent instead of release:free | 20:11 |
| annegent_ | ttx: jaypipes asked about audience, downstream or upstream priority would be a good discussion to have here | 20:11 |
| ttx | I agree with that and pushed a new patchset with it | 20:12 |
| ttx | annegent_: getting to it | 20:12 |
| annegent_ | ttx: ok cool | 20:12 |
| ttx | devananda suggested release:managed instead of release:coordinated | 20:12 |
| ttx | I also agree with that | 20:12 |
| annegent_ | +1 on that too | 20:12 |
| ttx | devananda / notmyname suggested we change release:common to something more descriptive or that doesn't imply majority share or anything | 20:12 |
| * notmyname lurks | 20:12 | |
| ttx | Yesterday jaypipes suggested we switch from a release model category approach (where you belong to only one) to an release model attribute approach (where you can combine multiple attributes) | 20:12 |
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| ttx | release-managed, release-periodic-6mo, release-with-milestones, release-independent | 20:12 |
| ttx | Some of the one-liner proposed definitions for them appear to be exclusive while they are not meant to, so they probably need a bit of work | 20:13 |
| ttx | I would also rename "with-milestones" to "with-shared-milestones" or "standard-cycle" or something, since that's the only milestones we currently have | 20:13 |
| ttx | annegent_: to answer your question, I think they should be used primarily downstream | 20:13 |
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| jgriffith | ttx: so thoughts on dhellmann 's proposal for synchronzied vs jaypipes 's changes? | 20:13 |
| annegent_ | I like that rename too. -with-shared-milestones probably slightly better for the avoidance of "value" in "standard" | 20:14 |
| ttx | but they should be precise enough so that upstream can use them to describe or organize their work too | 20:14 |
| * dhellmann wonders if it wouldn't be simpler to just let projects describe their release process in their own projects | 20:14 | |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: +1 | 20:14 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: but you'd have to have consistent tags IMO | 20:14 |
| ttx | dhellmann: that would make my job a bit difficult | 20:14 |
| ttx | I need to put projects into buckets, I handle a lot | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | ttx: in what way? just communicating downstream? | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | ah | 20:15 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: + to describing how their teams work, - to not having any consistency across projects when it comes to release cadense | 20:15 |
| ttx | I need to remember which one I handle, which ones use which model | 20:15 |
| devananda | dhellmann: this also informs distro packagers in a significant way | 20:15 |
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| ttx | How do you all feel about an attribute based approach vs. a model based approach ? | 20:16 |
| ttx | i.e. jaypipes AND style rather than my OR style | 20:16 |
| jgriffith | ttx: can you expand just a little | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | devananda: this goes back to my argument that we don't need a lot of these tags at all if we just go write things down in documentation | 20:16 |
| ttx | jgriffith: so my approach was to dscribe a set of release models and ask projects to pick | 20:16 |
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| ttx | I would have one tag per model | 20:17 |
| devananda | ttx: I can see benefits to both, but I'm still leaning towards the OR style | 20:17 |
| annegent_ | I think AND style is pretty accurate. | 20:17 |
| annegent_ | does put some cognitive burden on the tag reader | 20:17 |
| ttx | Jay's approach is to describe attributes of release models (like "does a release every 6 months") | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | ttx: are there a set of tags using Jay's approach that would meet your needs for bucketing? | 20:17 |
| ttx | and then let projects dsecribe what they do by combining those attributes | 20:17 |
| jgriffith | ttx: so I'm always a sucker for the simpler approach that still works | 20:18 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I need to chefck that all the combinations are a supportable bucket :) | 20:18 |
| jgriffith | ttx: in other words IMHO the OR model is a bit more clear and still gives benefit | 20:18 |
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| ttx | jgriffith: I'd not sure which is simpler, tbh | 20:18 |
| annegent_ | I think docs has a similar bucketing need | 20:18 |
| jgriffith | ttx: well, only in terms of "me" having it in my head :) | 20:19 |
| ttx | I'm fine taking Jay's proposal and checking that it works, and proposing definitions for those | 20:19 |
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| dhellmann | if we can identify the facets, the AND style seems simpler but if it produces combinations we don't want to support maybe that's reason enough to stick with OR | 20:19 |
| ttx | just want to make sure that's your preferred solution | 20:19 |
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| notmyname | ttx: how is your tag bucket method (OR) different than "integrated" "incubated" etc? | 20:19 |
| ttx | dhellmann: we could also describe exceptions to the OR rule | 20:19 |
| devananda | ttx: I could see a project needing to have 3 of those 4 tags though | 20:19 |
| notmyname | the AND method allows for more precise descriptions and flexible buckets | 20:20 |
| jgriffith | devananda: that's where things get convoluted for me | 20:20 |
| ttx | release-with-milestones and release-independent are exclusive for example | 20:20 |
| jgriffith | but that could be just me | 20:20 |
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| devananda | ttx: no they're not? | 20:20 |
| ttx | devananda: describe a project that would follow that ? | 20:20 |
| notmyname | jgriffith: aren't tags AND anyway? ie if there are multiple tags on a project, they are AND | 20:20 |
| devananda | ttx: a project could release its own milestones independelty from the sycnrhonized cycle, not managed by you | 20:20 |
| devananda | ttx: stackforge/ironic-discoverd | 20:21 |
| notmyname | jgriffith: IOW you'll always be composing tags in your head, even with the proposed OR release tags | 20:21 |
| ttx | devananda: oh, I meant the with-shared-milestones renamed variant | 20:21 |
| devananda | and python clients | 20:21 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: sure, but I guess I might be viewing this wrong | 20:21 |
| ttx | devananda: python clients do not follow milestones | 20:21 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: the OR to me means "it's this one or that one" | 20:21 |
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| devananda | ah - of course | 20:22 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: the AND means, there's this collection that all have different implications | 20:22 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: and I have to decode what the end result means | 20:22 |
| ttx | devananda: agree that you could invent a project that has milestones but not the shared ones | 20:22 |
| ttx | not sure that would need a tag though (original-milestones) | 20:22 |
| jgriffith | maybe not a big deal | 20:22 |
| annegent_ | devananda: ttx: yeah it's the commonality that matters due to assuming integrated testing? | 20:23 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: could be the I'm over-complicating it :) | 20:23 |
| lifeless | jeblair: I'm entirely happy with moving it | 20:23 |
| lifeless | bah, sorry | 20:23 |
| ttx | so what's your general feeling ? Should I scrap myu version and start again by iterating on Jay's list | 20:23 |
| ttx | ? | 20:23 |
| devananda | i think we have two (maybe more?) orthogonal dimensions here: who manages the release? how often are releases (and their related artefacts) tagged? | 20:24 |
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| ttx | devananda: that sounds simpler, since we ahve a tag for describing that | 20:24 |
| ttx | release:managed means release management is handled by the release mgmt team | 20:24 |
| ttx | if you don't have the tag, then you do it yourself | 20:24 |
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| devananda | we don't need two sets of tags | 20:25 |
| devananda | it reduces to (A || B) && (C || D) | 20:25 |
| ttx | devananda: ? | 20:25 |
| dhellmann | under ttx's definition, release:managed implies some of the other settings, though | 20:25 |
| ttx | dhellmann: release:managed is the pet tag for the release management team describing projects we agree to handle | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | right, and those follow the 6 month cycle, use milestones, etc. | 20:26 |
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| ttx | yes | 20:26 |
| devananda | release mgmt (manages || does not manage) the release && release is (synchronized || not synchronized) | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | so you wouldn't have a managed project not using milestones, but you might have an unmanaged project using them | 20:26 |
| notmyname | timing is differnet than releasing right? as devananda said | 20:26 |
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| notmyname | *who is releasing | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: they are only separate if the release team is not managing the release, I think | 20:27 |
| devananda | dhellmann: right. of the 4 possible combinations, only 3 are actually sensible | 20:27 |
| ttx | notmyname: in theory yes, in practice, no | 20:27 |
| devananda | dhellmann: and we dont need two sets of tags to represent that | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | right | 20:27 |
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| devananda | ttx: I have convinced myself that we dont need the AND approach here | 20:28 |
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| jaypipes | sorry all, reading back... | 20:28 |
| ttx | devananda: ah, interesting | 20:28 |
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| ttx | devananda: not sure how to proceed now. Whatever the direction I take, everyone seems to be unhappy | 20:29 |
| devananda | heh | 20:29 |
| devananda | names are hard | 20:29 |
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| dhellmann | ttx, devananda : I think you want a combination. A project is either managed, or it gets to pick a la carte from the other tags | 20:29 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: you'd have non-managed projects pick >1 tag to self-apply/ | 20:30 |
| devananda | ? | 20:30 |
| ttx | dhellmann: although I guess we should support the corner case that the relmgmt team can opt to support an outlier | 20:30 |
| ttx | heck, I did it for the last 4 years | 20:30 |
| devananda | dhellmann: that seems more confusing | 20:30 |
| annegent_ | ttx: I think it's difficult not just for naming but for integrated release management being a limited resource? | 20:30 |
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| jaypipes | "there's a tag for that" <-- new OpenStack motto. | 20:31 |
| ttx | devananda: I don't think the AND approach (Jay's approach) is more confusing | 20:31 |
| devananda | ttx: i meant the combination of OR + AND that i think dhellmann just proposed | 20:31 |
| devananda | either(release:managed) or(pick from list of other tags) | 20:32 |
| ttx | devananda: consider handled-by-relmgt-team separately | 20:32 |
| dhellmann | how about release:managed; release:periodic with attribute for period in months; release:independent (xor with release:periodic); release:uses-stable-branches | 20:32 |
| ttx | it is separate from the others | 20:32 |
| * devananda ponders | 20:32 | |
| ttx | not sure what you mean by release:uses-stable-branches | 20:33 |
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| ttx | common stable branches like the 6-month ones ? | 20:33 |
| devananda | dhellmann: so oslo would be release:independent + release:usesstable-branches ? | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | ttx: some independent projects won't use stable branches | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | devananda: right | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | I don't know if swift uses stable branches, but if not it would just be release:independent | 20:34 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I think it fails to describe the swift model | 20:34 |
| ttx | it's not really periodic but they releae at the end of the cycle | 20:34 |
| jaypipes | ttx: that is periodic, no? | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | ttx: so add release:synchronized to account for that case? | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: no, because they also release in between | 20:35 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: ah. | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | swift might be release:independent, release:synchronized, release:uses-stable-branches | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | oslo would be release:independent, release:uses-stable-branches | 20:35 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: what would release-synchronized denote? | 20:35 |
| ttx | I prefer Jay's list, tbh | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | a release at the end of a cycle | 20:35 |
| * dhellmann shrugs | 20:36 | |
| dhellmann | ttx: nothing on jaypipes' list describes oslo | 20:36 |
| ttx | I'll think about it and propose a new one. jaypipes, dhellmann: I might get your a draft proofread | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | ttx: sure | 20:37 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: release:independent describes oslo projects, no? | 20:37 |
| annegent_ | I think the cognitive overload is on independent AND synnchronized :) | 20:37 |
| sdague | dhellmann: the stable branches for oslo are sort of an accident of our current test system though, right? | 20:37 |
| ttx | annegent_: I blame swift | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: we produce many releases during a cycle and one stable release at the end of each, so not realy | 20:37 |
| ttx | (as always) | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | sdague: no, we were doing them before this cycle | 20:37 |
| sdague | dhellmann: right, but we weren't testing releases before this cycle | 20:38 |
| sdague | the libs were all from git | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | sdague: we were using alpha tags to avoid the problem that caps are now being used to avoid | 20:38 |
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| jaypipes | dhellmann: gotcha. so perhaps release:periodic-6mo + release:as-needed? | 20:38 |
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| dhellmann | jaypipes: that 6month thing feels forced, but that's probably closer | 20:39 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: /me trying to come up with a pithy way of denoting "releases versions of libraries as needed" | 20:39 |
| ttx | #action ttx to propose a new set of tags based on an release model attribute (AND) approach, and make sure that all projects can be acurately described in it | 20:39 |
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| ttx | Let's move on | 20:40 |
| ttx | And I thought those ones were piece of cake | 20:40 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes | 20:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:40 | |
| ttx | * Add ironic-lib to Ironic program (https://review.openstack.org/157757) | 20:40 |
| ttx | We have 7 YES here and I think we can overrule mikal's objection since it's been addressed in further comments | 20:41 |
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| ttx | so... approving after meeting unless someone else objects | 20:41 |
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| ttx | * Add dib-utils as part of TripleO (https://review.openstack.org/158365) | 20:41 |
| ttx | This one looks good to go, could use another +1 | 20:41 |
| ttx | approving after meeting unless someone else objects | 20:42 |
| ttx | * Add mission statement for project 'Heat' (https://review.openstack.org/154049) | 20:42 |
| ttx | One mission is better than no mission, so this one looks good to go too | 20:42 |
| ttx | It has Heat PTL blessing, so will approve after meeting unless someone else objects | 20:42 |
| ttx | * Adding Piet Kruithof as Horizon ATC (https://review.openstack.org/154271) | 20:43 |
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| ttx | 8 YES &I think we can overrule mikal's objection here as well since it's been addressed in further comments | 20:43 |
| ttx | so will approve after meeting unless someone else objects | 20:43 |
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| ttx | #topic Housekeeping | 20:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Housekeeping (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:43 | |
| ttx | Even more intersting | 20:43 |
| ttx | * Build list of teams from YAML file (https://review.openstack.org/125788) | 20:43 |
| ttx | This is rendering the teams list for governance.o.o, not really a TC decision. I'll approve this postmeeting as housekeeping, unless someone posts a valid -1 | 20:44 |
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| ttx | * Update the Infrastructure project homepage URL (https://review.openstack.org/158371) | 20:44 |
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| jeblair | i'm not opposed to this, but i sort of feel weird being the odd project out; i'd like to ask fungi more about his intent when he gets back from vacation | 20:44 |
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| ttx | This one could use jeblair's +1, but since it's housekeeping i'll also approve it post-meeting unless there is an objection | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | that sounded like an objection? | 20:44 |
| ttx | oh | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | or at least a request to have it tabled | 20:45 |
| ttx | I thought that was an objection on the Heat mission one | 20:45 |
| jeblair | yeah, can we table it? | 20:45 |
| jeblair | oh sorry | 20:45 |
| ttx | sure, no hurry | 20:45 |
| jeblair | was suggesting tabling the infra homepage change | 20:45 |
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| ttx | Heh, infra actually *has* a mission | 20:45 |
| ttx | jeblair: sure, no pb | 20:45 |
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| ttx | #info tabling this one until we get PTL ack | 20:46 |
| ttx | * Improve the doc build process (openstack-specs) (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/156715/) | 20:46 |
| ttx | This one is housekeeping on the openstack-specs repo, will approve unless somone objects | 20:46 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:46 | |
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| ttx | I wanted to mention I don't get a lot of support from TC members to push the new governance model | 20:47 |
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| zaneb | fun fact: the verb 'to table' has opposite meanings in English and American | 20:47 |
| ttx | I know we all have our battles, but I kind of hoped we'd get more tag definitions proposed | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | ttx: did you have some other tags in mind? | 20:48 |
| ttx | dhellmann: well, Jay had a very long list | 20:48 |
| jeblair | ttx: i was also wondering what's next for the change | 20:48 |
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| ttx | I'll work with Ops to make progress on maturity-description tags | 20:49 |
| ttx | jeblair: I think we need to continue to decontruct the various meanings of integrated-release into separate tags | 20:49 |
| devananda | ttx: I'll be happy to work with you on some more tags | 20:49 |
| ttx | So what does integarted-release currently mean ? | 20:49 |
| ttx | It does mean released-together, and we have a thread to cover that | 20:49 |
| jeblair | ttx: it looks like most of the work items in http://governance.openstack.org/resolutions/20141202-project-structure-reform-spec.html are largely complete, except for tag related things | 20:50 |
| ttx | It does mean tested-together | 20:50 |
| jaypipes | ttx: sorry mate, I can try to submit some tag definitions in the next week or so. Apologies, I've been so swamped with other stuff :( | 20:50 |
| ttx | It does mean kind-of-mature | 20:50 |
| devananda | ttx: in particular, I'm interested in tags around the layers that mordred and I have talked about previously, but I haven't tried to write them up formally yet | 20:50 |
| ttx | It does mean kind-of-produced-the-openstack-way | 20:50 |
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| ttx | we cover "kind-of-produced-the-openstack-way" with the new project teams requirements | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | ttx: "mature" is too subjective and "openstack-way" is still a rule for all projects, right? | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | devananda: the layers can be discovered by looking at the test matrix, can't they? do we need tags for those? | 20:51 |
| ttx | dhellmann: sure "mature" (or "stable") is too subjective | 20:51 |
| ttx | dhellmann: My plan is to reach out to ops tand see how we could describe that | 20:51 |
| jogo | dhellmann: yeah I don't think we need 'formal' tags for layers | 20:51 |
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| annegent_ | is anyone at the ops meetup to test usability of tags? | 20:51 |
| devananda | dhellmann: the test matrix is evolving currently. in an ideal world, yes, it could be discovered from that, though I think having tags to self-describe is helpful | 20:52 |
| annegent_ | next week I think? | 20:52 |
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| zaneb | dhellmann++ | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I hope they will blog or something. I don't know if it's a good idea for us to be trying to express that here. | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | devananda: ok. I'm -1 on that because I don't want to have to have this conversation every time the project-config repo is updated. :-) | 20:52 |
| devananda | dhellmann: ++ on not having "mature" or "openstack-way" tags | 20:52 |
| ttx | I think we need to, though. Thats' what our downstream users want us to express | 20:52 |
| devananda | also -- if a project isn't following "the openstack way" it shouldn't be in openstack/* namespace. so we dont need a separate tag for that | 20:53 |
| ttx | we can't on one private side say "this thing is crap" and then leave our users discover that by themselves | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I understand the need to have the information. I'm not convinced this body is the right group to produce it. Isn't that the whole issue that led to the Big Tent discussion in the first place? | 20:53 |
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| devananda | ttx: ++ | 20:53 |
| annegent_ | devananda: but stackforge could be construed as "opesntack way-ish" | 20:53 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I'm not saying we would apply those tags ourselves | 20:53 |
| devananda | annegent_: sure. ish :) | 20:54 |
| annegent_ | :) | 20:54 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: how about tags that describe adoption, based on user committee surveys and research they conduct | 20:54 |
| ttx | they would apply that tag, not us | 20:54 |
| jeblair | yes, projects are in stackforge because they want to operate the openstack way. i think in the long run that means that there should not be a stackforge, and all of them should be in the tent | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | ttx: why wouldn't people just read the user surveys? | 20:54 |
| jogo | ttx: I have questions about the quality of the user survey data | 20:54 |
| devananda | dhellmann: we could (and IMO should) delegate the application of tags to the bodies of people (outside the TC) who represent that sort of knowledge | 20:54 |
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| ttx | jeblair: not all of them fill all the boxes | 20:55 |
| ttx | jeblair: the only box they fill is "use Gerrit" | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | devananda: we don't need to give anyone permission to go write up what they think the state of projects are | 20:55 |
| jeblair | ttx: they test, use the mailing list, irc meetings, etc... | 20:55 |
| devananda | dhellmann: no, but providing a single point of reference is very helpful for people ... | 20:55 |
| jeblair | ttx: they are there because they want to be part of the community | 20:55 |
| ttx | jeblair: they don't all use the ML, far from it | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | devananda: certainly. Is that really project governance, though? | 20:56 |
| jeblair | ttx: there are easier code hosting systems out there, they aren't just here for gerrit :) | 20:56 |
| ttx | jeblair: same with IRC meetings | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | we're spending a lot of time on taxonomy that could be spent on negotiating some of the technical issues we have | 20:56 |
| devananda | dhellmann: the providing of that location? yes. the curation of the content? nope. | 20:56 |
| ttx | jeblair: a LOT of them use private calls/meetings/hangouts | 20:56 |
| jogo | dhellmann: ++ | 20:56 |
| devananda | dhellmann: indeed | 20:56 |
| jeblair | ttx: right, so projects that need nothing more than git repo hosting can find it elsewhere, and the folks that want to be part of the community can be | 20:56 |
| devananda | I'd love to, for example, discuss out of tree drivers | 20:56 |
| devananda | and how that's working really well for some projects, while others resist it | 20:56 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: most of the operators I'm familiar with look to their distro for the kind of information we've been talking about, not upstream to us. | 20:57 |
| * jogo wonders whats going on with neutron, and how nova-network isn't deprecated yet | 20:57 | |
| dhellmann | devananda: ++ to discussing how to manage drivers | 20:57 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I still think it's our responsibility to describe our ecosystem of projects for our downstream consumers | 20:57 |
| devananda | dhellmann: and distros look where? | 20:57 |
| anteaya | devananda: the only project I know of doing it so far is neutron, and others are watching | 20:57 |
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| devananda | anteaya: ironic | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | devananda: they test and make their own decisions, no? | 20:57 |
| ttx | we can't just dump pioles of code and say it's someone else problem to figure it out | 20:57 |
| devananda | anteaya: though our model is somewhat different than neutron's, it seems to be working quite well for us | 20:58 |
| devananda | ttx: ++ | 20:58 |
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| anteaya | devananda: then that is another data point for me | 20:58 |
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| ttx | someone has to do it, and we can't escape our responsibilities | 20:58 |
| ttx | Anyway... I'll be at the Ops Summit in PHL next week. Anyone else joining ? | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | I would whole-heartedly support someone creating a product guide or something that had this information in it. I do not think the TC should do it ourselves. We're not the only ones who can do it, and we have other things to address for which we *are* the only group who can address them. | 20:58 |
| ttx | sdague is, I know that | 20:59 |
| annegent_ | ttx: oh good. | 20:59 |
| ttx | annegent_: you're coming ? | 20:59 |
| sdague | ttx: yep, I'll be there. mordred will as well. | 20:59 |
| devananda | anteaya: ironic has explicitly supported out of tree drivers, though to my knowledge only a few exist, and they're not posted in obvious places yet | 20:59 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: the tags are the guide. We create the framework and people fill the blanks / apply tags | 21:00 |
| devananda | anteaya: but the email re stackforge/proliantutils is a great example of what our interface enables | 21:00 |
| annegent_ | ttx: sadly, no. Matt Kassawara will be there for docs | 21:00 |
| ttx | I'll lead a session on ops-driven tags definition. | 21:00 |
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| annegent_ | ttx: great | 21:00 |
| ttx | plan to discuss novanet vs. neutron, EC2 API support, DB downgrades, default config files and other upstream/ops pain points | 21:00 |
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| ttx | Since a number of us will be there I'd rather skip the TC meeting next week. | 21:00 |
| ttx | If something comes up and a meeting is urgently needed, I'll fish for replacement chair to run it | 21:00 |
| devananda | ttx: i wish i could make it, but E_RECOVERING_FROM_TRAVEL | 21:00 |
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| ttx | Last words ? | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | "it'll be easy" | 21:01 |
| jeblair | i think we should have the meeting next week | 21:01 |
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| annegent_ | "words are hard" | 21:01 |
| devananda | dhellmann: there's a tag for that | 21:01 |
| ttx | jeblair: ok, we'll discuss that on the tc list | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Mar 3 21:01:23 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-03-03-20.03.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-03-03-20.03.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-03-03-20.03.log.html | 21:01 |
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| ttx | courtesy PTL ping: dhellmann, morganfainberg, notmyname, eglynn, nikhil_k, thingee, asalkeld, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov, mikal: around ? | 21:02 |
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| eglynn_ | o/ | 21:02 |
| notmyname | here | 21:02 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:02 |
| mestery | \o/ | 21:02 |
| nikhil_k | o/ | 21:02 |
| asalkeld | o/ | 21:02 |
| jungleboyj | o/ | 21:02 |
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| ttx | #startmeeting crossproject | 21:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Mar 3 21:02:32 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:02 | |
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| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 21:02 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'crossproject' | 21:02 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting | 21:02 |
| harlowja_ | \o | 21:02 |
| * morganfainberg is lurking here. | 21:02 | |
| ttx | #topic OpenStack developer doc vs. cross-project Specs | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack developer doc vs. cross-project Specs (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:02 | |
| ttx | So... The suggestion of writing an OpenStack coding guide was first raised on the "Eventlet best practices" openstack-spec: | 21:03 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/154642/ | 21:03 |
| bknudson | I'd like the developer docs to look like docs rather than specs. | 21:03 |
| harlowja_ | i think dhellmann should write another book that we can use | 21:03 |
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| harlowja_ | ^ joke | 21:03 |
| ttx | Basically it appeared more as a reference set of coding guidelines than as a clear problem to solve with a beginning and an end | 21:03 |
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| ttx | dhellmann raised the following thread to discuss the idea: | 21:03 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/057816.html | 21:03 |
| ttx | Reaction was generally positive | 21:03 |
| annegent_ | bknudson: what does look like mean | 21:03 |
| ttx | but then there was the question of when guidelines should be spec material and when should they be coding guide material | 21:03 |
| ttx | And it's true that guidelines tend to start their lives as specs (as we make sure the exiting code catches up with the new guidelines) | 21:04 |
| ttx | existing* | 21:04 |
| ttx | ...and end their lives as guidelines for future code being written | 21:04 |
| bknudson | annegent_: the specs look like a list of short docs, whereas a doc is something you can read through. | 21:04 |
| ttx | So I guess there are 3 approaches: | 21:04 |
| ttx | 1- Use specs for everything, no coding guide (and expect people to find rules for future code in the specs repo) | 21:04 |
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| ttx | 2- Use spec for drafting rules and the initial effort of converting existing code, then copy relevant parts of the spec to the coding guide so that future code is more likely to follow the rules | 21:04 |
| ttx | 3- Draft rules in the coding guide, then create spec to track the effort of converting the existing code to the newly-defined rules (if any) | 21:05 |
| annegent_ | bknudson: ok, thanks for the explanation | 21:05 |
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| ttx | Personally I find (1) not really future-proof | 21:05 |
| notmyname | isn't this why we have hacking? | 21:05 |
| asalkeld | +1 to 3, but same repo as the specs | 21:05 |
| ttx | we can't expect future developers to sift through specs to find which ones happen to contain guidelines that they should apply to code they'll write | 21:05 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: some things are easier to explain in prose | 21:05 |
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| ttx | I think (3) makes more sense process-wise than (2) | 21:06 |
| harlowja_ | ttx sounds like we just need to organize specs more like a 'book' ? | 21:06 |
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| ttx | They could technically live in the same repository, although the "openstack-specs" name feels a bit misleading then | 21:06 |
| nikhil_k | == ttx | 21:06 |
| ttx | harlowja_: well, specs tend to be implemented and "completed", while rules live forever | 21:06 |
| asalkeld | ttx: we have docs in code repos | 21:06 |
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| annegent_ | yeah I'd personally like to see a centralized cross-project coding guide separate from specs | 21:07 |
| harlowja_ | well i hope rules don't live forever, the python community seems to change python drastically every few years, lol | 21:07 |
| ttx | so I'd argue they are different beasets, aven if there can be specs about implementing rules (especially the first time to catch up) | 21:07 |
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| sdague | annegent_: yeh, this seems like a development handbook that would be in the openstack manuals constellation | 21:07 |
| thingee | o/ | 21:07 |
| sdague | because things like "eventlet best practices" are one of the proposed bits | 21:07 |
| asalkeld | except, having it in the same repo might make it easier to convert specs into docs | 21:08 |
| ttx | sdague: bnemec argues that "eventlet best practices" is the same animal as the "Log guidelines" | 21:08 |
| annegent_ | sdague: except for the reviewers should be experts (not necessarily all doc team members) | 21:08 |
| dhellmann | sdague: the testing guidelines and logging guidelines could easily be moved over to that doc, too | 21:08 |
| sdague | ttx: I'm unconvinced | 21:08 |
| dhellmann | this feels a bit bikesheddy - we've had pretty good luck so far with a "policy" subsection of the oslo-specs repo, and that feels like it would be a much easier route than creating a whole new document | 21:08 |
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| ttx | i.e. a set of guidelines with a spec to describe catch-up phase | 21:08 |
| * devananda notes the existence of a similar-ish guide in oslo.db for using sessions | 21:09 | |
| dhellmann | sdague: the guidelines parts of those documents would move, but the "to do" list wouldn't | 21:09 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: guess it depends on the goals -- getting agreement across projects? Or helping contributors? | 21:09 |
| sdague | annegent_: right, it's a different audience | 21:09 |
| dhellmann | devananda: sure, we do have docs for the libs, too. bnemec's thing on eventlet could go into oslo.concurrency, except I'm not sure anyone would find it there because it's about eventlet not oslo.concurrency | 21:09 |
| sdague | specs are about agrement | 21:09 |
| ttx | dhellmann: so you would follow option 2 ? | 21:09 |
| notmyname | maybe it's because this started with eventlet, but I'm not a big fan of a central set of guidelines (rules) for 500+ openstack repos to follow. syntax/hacking stuff is fine, but "here's how to use this 3rd party library" doesn't seem like a good idea for rules | 21:09 |
| bknudson | #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-specs/ | 21:10 |
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| bknudson | there's the repo now | 21:10 |
| devananda | notmyname: except for when it is | 21:10 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I prefer option 1 actually | 21:10 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: it's not prescriptive, it's advice | 21:10 |
| sdague | a developer handbook is a contributor onboarding would be kind of handy. Not everyone has been around these things for ever | 21:10 |
| notmyname | devananda: my point is that I don't know when that happens, if ever | 21:10 |
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| devananda | notmyname: plenty of libraries produce docs on how to use them well | 21:10 |
| * harlowja_ also prefers they not be called rules (software changes folks, practices change, ...); but i guess thats just my personal feeling | 21:10 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: but moving spec to a specific directory under specs ? | 21:11 |
| dhellmann | sdague: sure, and that's different than what we've had proposed so far as specs | 21:11 |
| devananda | notmyname: eg, sqlalchemy | 21:11 |
| jungleboyj | sdague: +2 | 21:11 |
| dhellmann | ttx: yeah, in oslo-specs we just have a "policy" dir but we could use "devref" or something here | 21:11 |
| notmyname | devananda: nope. not gonna fly. that's not how openstack works. every "guideline" that starts optional has turned into something that is strongly pressured to conform to | 21:11 |
| notmyname | dhellmann: ^^ (sorry not devananda) | 21:12 |
| bknudson | so what's the argument for having a separate repo? | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: do you think that's the case for the existing guidelines? | 21:12 |
| devananda | I'd be happy to see shared guides // devref material, but I agree that the audience is different from our cross-project specs | 21:12 |
| ttx | notmyname: I guess you object to the concept of cross-project specs anyway ? | 21:13 |
| devananda | however the set of folks who should review it is not all that different | 21:13 |
| notmyname | devananda: I'm fine with a library producing docs on how to use it well. that's good. I'm not ok with having a prescription for every openstack repo | 21:13 |
| notmyname | ttx: no, I don't | 21:13 |
| annegent_ | bknudson: one argument pro separate repo would be for a review group | 21:13 |
| ttx | notmyname: they sometimes contain guidelines, too | 21:13 |
| notmyname | dhellmann: I'd point to last years "TC gap analysys" as a way to get projects to conform to guidelines | 21:13 |
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| dhellmann | notmyname: in the case of the eventlet thing, it's more about saying "if you do this you're going to have bugs, but this other thing works" isn't it? | 21:13 |
| morganfainberg | notmyname: if we have learned lessons "this is bad because x" hat is t bad documentation. Doesn't mean there are exceptions to it. | 21:13 |
| devananda | notmyname: sure. I do not think it should be proscriptive and mandated across all projects | 21:13 |
| bknudson | annegent_: that's a good one. | 21:13 |
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| devananda | notmyname: however, the eventlet discussion, aiui, originally started because folks want to mandate a change | 21:14 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: I don't think that's a bad thing. | 21:14 |
| notmyname | it touches a nerve because I've seen it many times. ;-) /me feels the same way about the api working group | 21:14 |
| morganfainberg | But having reasonable guidelines that a lib let's you do but we know causes issues unless you work around it isn't negative. | 21:14 |
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| devananda | gotta step away for 5 min | 21:14 |
| asalkeld | notmyname: there are user's that don't like that each project does things in different ways | 21:15 |
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| bknudson | for developers it's also confusing when you switch between projects. | 21:15 |
| Rockyg | There are operators who don't like that projects aren | 21:15 |
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| harlowja_ | thinks we should just have guidelines/lessons learned (don't call them rules, things that people must follow); if people still want to shoot there feet off, thats there choice | 21:15 |
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| Rockyg | t consistenet in the OpenStack "space" | 21:16 |
| notmyname | harlowja_: that's better | 21:16 |
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| jungleboyj | bknudson: +1 | 21:17 |
| harlowja_ | Rockyg imho to facilatate a healthy opensource community thats just going to have to be one of the balances that may not always be perfect (conformity via rules, vs innovation) | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | the eventlet document was created after someone wanted to patch an oslo library to do something custom with eventlet because their app was not properly initializing eventlet | 21:17 |
| Rockyg | A developer ref gives newbies a good set of guidelines to follow that are from lessons learned. If you're senior and really good, you can judge when exceptions are reasonable | 21:17 |
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| dhellmann | the oslo team rejected that patch, and started trying to provide more guidance for using eventlet | 21:17 |
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| asalkeld | so the devref if for newbies, and we need a thing that is more aimed at experts | 21:18 |
| dhellmann | they're not rules, per se, but if you're not following them then there will be problems with using libs that expect you to be following them (not just from oslo) | 21:18 |
| Rockyg | Jarlowja: if the community finds it too hard to manage, they go elsewhere. Then the projects become just for developers | 21:18 |
| dhellmann | asalkeld: yeah, it sounds like we have 2 audiences | 21:18 |
| notmyname | dhellmann: which goes to what harlowja_ said. | 21:18 |
| Rockyg | manage in use. | 21:18 |
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| harlowja_ | Rockyg sure, thus the balance that is not easy to maintain | 21:19 |
| * devananda returns | 21:19 | |
| * harlowja_ afaik the same thing happened with hadoop | 21:19 | |
| bknudson | even the openstack-specs repo says it's for "Cross-Project Specifications and Policies" -- but there are no policies yet. | 21:19 |
| ttx | notmyname: so you'd prefer solution (1) ? | 21:19 |
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| harlowja_ | 'Policies' sounds to much like rules imho | 21:20 |
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| asalkeld | yeah | 21:20 |
| ttx | "Guidelines" sounds better | 21:20 |
| Rockyg | The cross-project specs should be used to create devref. If a spec supersedes old spec, it gets deprecated and the doc gets modified. | 21:20 |
| jungleboyj | Seems like we need to stay away from anything that sounds like 'rules'. | 21:20 |
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| asalkeld | "Implementation suggestions" | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | Rockyg: I would like to avoid a bunch of busy work moving things around | 21:20 |
| jungleboyj | ttx: +2 | 21:20 |
| bknudson | we do have rules -- e.g., api stability guidelines. | 21:21 |
| harlowja_ | u just called that guidelines, not rules, lol | 21:21 |
| bknudson | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Approved/APIStability | 21:21 |
| thingee | ttx: +1 | 21:21 |
| notmyname | ttx: I think "Specs" should be for pieces of work that are defined and get merged to a specific repo (or set of repos). if we want advice for libraries somewhere, then I don't think it should be in a specs repo | 21:21 |
| morganfainberg | You could do the same thing that is the API ref docs. Publish the devref from the same repo. Like keystone has for the api spec vs specs for features. | 21:21 |
| eglynn_ | well "guidelines" is certainly friendlier than hard rules | 21:21 |
| ttx | We could do (1) the other way around. Move completed, irrelevant specs to a "completed" directory once they are done. If a spec is in the "active" directory it's still "current". Solves the discoverability issue | 21:21 |
| morganfainberg | If you want to have the same repo with devref in it. | 21:21 |
| morganfainberg | That way you kind of strike middle ground. | 21:22 |
| Rockyg | notmyname ++ | 21:22 |
| notmyname | ttx: that's what we do in swift actually (have a "done" folder for finished specs" | 21:22 |
| ttx | notmyname: but you don't want them in a coding guide either | 21:22 |
| * bnemec wanders in late | 21:22 | |
| Rockyg | ttx: that's what I intended ;-) | 21:22 |
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| bknudson | having the devref and spec in the same repo means that you can update the devref along with the spec (in the same review), so when the spec is approved/merged the devref is, too. | 21:23 |
| notmyname | ttx: perhaps it's the "guide" word. it depends on how that document is done. I do not want it with eg pep8 rules. I'm completely ok with "here's what we've learned about the best way to use evenlet or to [not] do DB migrations etc" | 21:23 |
| asalkeld | can we publish this stuff differently, even though they live in the same repo? | 21:23 |
| Rockyg | OK. Developer's Guide | 21:24 |
| morganfainberg | notmyname: I think that is what is being pitched here. That was my understanding. | 21:24 |
| ttx | morganfainberg: +1 | 21:24 |
| bnemec | Yeah, it's eventlet best practices, not eventlet commandments. :-) | 21:24 |
| morganfainberg | Here is what we know/learned. Don't do x unless you are aware of y because $reason | 21:24 |
| Rockyg | morganfainberg ++ | 21:25 |
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| dhellmann | I thought using the same repo would let us actually produce something useful quickly, but if it's just going to mean more arguing then let's create a separate reference guide repository. | 21:25 |
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| morganfainberg | bnemec: I like there eventlet commandments better (as a name) :P | 21:25 |
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| notmyname | morganfainberg: yup, that's great. just not in a "this is how you must code in an openstack project" | 21:26 |
| bnemec | dhellmann: +1. I'd prefer to go with the one repo thing like oslo-specs, but not so much that I want to endlessly bikeshed over it. | 21:26 |
| dhellmann | we have spent more time talking about it than it would have taken me to set up a new repo, so let's not waste any more time | 21:26 |
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| morganfainberg | dhellmann: or a separate directory in the same repo. Like the API spec would work. Just can't be a "spec" as in "work to be done". Because that is not meaningful or easy to parse for someone looking for reference. | 21:26 |
| SlickNik | dhellmann: ++ | 21:26 |
| ttx | bnemec: how about writing a blogpost instead | 21:27 |
| asalkeld | ttx: there is no review or acceptance then | 21:27 |
| morganfainberg | We should just make it an easy way to search/find/reference regardless of where it is. A blog post is as good as a repo to start. | 21:27 |
| devananda | blog post -- | 21:28 |
| ttx | asalkeld, devananda : that was sarcasm | 21:28 |
| bnemec | It would have hurt this document a lot to have me do it as a blog post. | 21:28 |
| devananda | ttx: oh :) | 21:28 |
| bnemec | Heh | 21:28 |
| morganfainberg | But just pick a place for it ;). I think we have over discussed this. | 21:28 |
| ttx | no kidding | 21:28 |
| * asalkeld not stressed about this, do *something* and it will probably be fine | 21:29 | |
| morganfainberg | It doesn't belong as a "work to be done"-spec. That is all that needed to be said. | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann create openstack/developer_reference repository | 21:29 |
| devananda | dhellmann: how about oslo/developer-guides (or change name as appropriate) to host developer-contributed-and-reviewed reference material | 21:29 |
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| bknudson | if we have a separate repo are there different rules for appoval? | 21:29 |
| devananda | hah | 21:29 |
| Rockyg | Cool thing about spec and doc in same repository is that you can have spec=chapter where appropriate | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | ttx: let's move on | 21:29 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ++ | 21:29 |
| devananda | ++ | 21:29 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: start with the same rules as we have for the current repo. Update as needed. | 21:29 |
| ttx | We have reached the end of my timebox (and patience) for this anyway | 21:29 |
| bnemec | +1 | 21:29 |
| ttx | #topic Replacing eventlet: how to make progress (or not) | 21:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Replacing eventlet: how to make progress (or not) (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:30 | |
| ttx | So we have two specs for separate approaches in getting rid of eventlet: | 21:30 |
| harlowja_ | sooooo | 21:30 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/153298/ | 21:30 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/156711/ | 21:30 |
| asalkeld | groan | 21:30 |
| ttx | and I feel like those are getting nowhere | 21:30 |
| ttx | and I'd like to set a constructive next step for those | 21:30 |
| dhellmann | asalkeld: if you all don't pick, oslo is going to pick for you because eventlet is a constant source of trouble for us | 21:31 |
| ttx | but then I'm not sure we are on the right day for that | 21:31 |
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| ttx | I feel like we are stagnating on this, in particular with two specs diluting the essential question of why we should even consider moving off eventlet at this point | 21:31 |
| ttx | To unblock ourselves, I suggested that the two proposers actually collaborate to answer that essential question | 21:31 |
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| ttx | Because having two parallel specs answering that question in slightly different terms doesn't really help making progress imho | 21:31 |
| harlowja_ | well they are fundamentally different solutions ;) | 21:31 |
| asalkeld | out of those 2, i pick asyncio | 21:31 |
| ttx | Which is why I proposed that the two specs should converge on a single spec with two implementation alternatives (a metaspec) | 21:31 |
| dhellmann | harlowja_: the premise of wanting to move is the same, though | 21:31 |
| ttx | Describe the problem with eventlet once, and propose solutions in comparable terms | 21:31 |
| ttx | Rather than separately stating that your approach is superior and sending everyone away, wondering why we even want to change eventlet in the first place | 21:32 |
| asalkeld | but after using yield for ~year for scheduling - i still am not a fan | 21:32 |
| ttx | But then neither author seems interested in that approach | 21:32 |
| eglynn_ | ttx: have you run the metaspec idea past haypo? | 21:32 |
| harlowja_ | sure, seems fair, although there will still be the my approach is different better than yours part, lol | 21:32 |
| ttx | eglynn_: I did. He prefers to prove his point with code | 21:32 |
| harlowja_ | due to the fundametnally different ways these work | 21:32 |
| harlowja_ | lifeless wants CSP instead :-P | 21:33 |
| eglynn_ | ttx: yeah, I suspected that might be the case | 21:33 |
| ttx | I just fear he will pile up a lot of code and get stopped after wasting a lot of work | 21:33 |
| devananda | ttx: I would appreciate the clear description of why we need to move off of eventlet | 21:33 |
| ttx | devananda: me too | 21:33 |
| devananda | and why now() | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | harlowja_: "CSP"? | 21:33 |
| sdague | devananda: ++ | 21:33 |
| lifeless | communicating sequential processes | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: thanks | 21:33 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: i will object strongly to oslo making a change that forces projects to fundamentally change their implementation / threading model | 21:34 |
| ttx | devananda: I mean, we used to have a Python3 long-term issue motivating the change and kind of balancing its high cost | 21:34 |
| harlowja_ | dhellmann http://goless.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ (ya, what lifeless said) | 21:34 |
| lifeless | I linked to several sources in my review comment | 21:34 |
| devananda | dhellmann: i'm not sure if that's what you meant, but that's how I read it | 21:34 |
| sdague | lifeless: isn't that basically the rewrite in go approach? | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | devananda: then it's best to get involved in this discussion :-) | 21:34 |
| lifeless | sdague: no | 21:34 |
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| lifeless | sdague: I'm not a fan of go in general, but the concurrency model stuff is really nice | 21:34 |
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| devananda | ttx: right. _used_to_. also that didn't motivate us strongly enough over the last two years, so why now() ? | 21:35 |
| harlowja_ | lifeless +1 the concept is nice and would be great to make happen; i'm just not sure the practicality of it happening | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | devananda: ftr, I'm opposed to approaches that require major changes in the applications | 21:35 |
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| lifeless | sdague: one of the ways in which it is nice is that it is very similar to what we do now (since we do relatively little synchronised workloads anywa) | 21:36 |
| dhellmann | devananda: part of this is looking ahead to python 3, where eventlet continues to be only mostly supported | 21:36 |
| devananda | dhellmann: I thought so. hence my uncertainty in my interpretation above | 21:36 |
| lifeless | eventlet has been a source of bugs | 21:36 |
| sdague | dhellmann: I thought the python3 situation was rapidly improving | 21:36 |
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| lifeless | some major and very hard to diagnose ones | 21:36 |
| lifeless | thats the why, I don't think there is disagreement over this, is there? | 21:37 |
| sdague | lifeless: so has sqlalchemy | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | sdague: it is improving, but I don't know about rapidly or completely | 21:37 |
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| harlowja_ | lifeless and then u can get into the concurrency model taskflow uses/enables (which isn't CSP but is more like concurrent dataflow-like), ha | 21:37 |
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| lifeless | sdague: yup, and there are folk muttering about that long-term too, but lets pick one battle at a time | 21:37 |
| ttx | FWIW I am having network issues | 21:37 |
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| devananda | when we use a library this heavily and then find issues, is abandoning it better than fixing it? | 21:38 |
| ttx | devananda: exactly. I fear that harlowja_ and haypo are moving to solutions and failed to convince anyone there was a problem | 21:38 |
| sdague | yeh, I mean libvirt has had monster hard to diagnose bugs | 21:38 |
| dhellmann | devananda: do we have volunteers to go work on fixing it? | 21:38 |
| lifeless | devananda: depends if the issues are due to implementation or concept - eventlets issues are arguably not implementation | 21:38 |
| harlowja_ | i'm just proposing a spec, with ideas, i leave it up to the community to pick the solution ;) | 21:38 |
| dhellmann | it's fine to say we should work upstream, but if we have no one actually interested in doing that then it's not actually a solution | 21:39 |
| devananda | dhellmann: do we have confidence that the proposed alternatives don't *also* have problems that we'll only find when every project is using it at openstack-levels of scale? | 21:39 |
| ttx | And each spec presents a slightly different view on what "the problem" is | 21:39 |
| notmyname | swift contributors have often made upstream patches to eventlet and haven't had a problem getting them accepted | 21:39 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: I agree, that's part of the discussion we should be having | 21:39 |
| lifeless | devananda: the scale thing confuses me; any one python process is still very limited in size in Openstack | 21:39 |
| sdague | lifeless: the developer scale | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: the issue isn't with eventlet's willilngness to take patches, it's with the lack of people to make the patches in the first place | 21:40 |
| lifeless | devananda: do you mean 'many contributors that don't grok the library' ? | 21:40 |
| devananda | lifeless: IIRC some of the issues we've had only showed up intermittently, ie, in the gate | 21:40 |
| harlowja_ | ttx so i think i can work with haypo on creating the unified 'what is the issue' part; and then i guess have huge sections for the different ways to 'solve' it | 21:40 |
| sdague | if you have super awesome developers that don't make mistakes, your underlying implementation doesn't matter | 21:40 |
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| ttx | harlowja_: I /think/ that would be more likely to succeed | 21:41 |
| notmyname | dhellmann: I'm saying that in that when we need something for eventlet, we've made patches and they've been accepted. and swift hasn't seen any scale problems with it | 21:41 |
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| sdague | if you have 1000+ contributors + 2 million lines of extant code... things are different | 21:41 |
| harlowja_ | ttx the ways to solve it list will not be comprehensive ( lifeless could for example add a CSP section, i could add another section for taskflow dataflow concurrency...) | 21:41 |
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| devananda | lifeless: i still haven't seen a compelling reason to switch off of eventlet -- as much as I personally would prefer to have proper threading | 21:41 |
| devananda | sdague: exactly | 21:41 |
| ttx | harlowja_: I'd very much want to see a CSP section | 21:41 |
| harlowja_ | and a taskflow dataflow one to, and ... (there are alot of models that could work, ha) | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: yes, and I'm saying that I don't have anyone willing to help with the python 3 port and so that's going to become an issue if the eventlet team doesn't actually finish it -- I'm trying to ensure we have a path into the future | 21:41 |
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| notmyname | dhellmann: didn't their latest release fishing that up? 0.17 IIRC | 21:42 |
| sdague | 0.17.0, which is in the gate, passes their python 3 tests | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: they've claimed support before | 21:42 |
| sdague | it would probably be interesting to find a project which we could light up on it and see if it passes our tests | 21:42 |
| devananda | harlowja_: thanks - I'd really like to understand the justification for even considering mandating a change that would affect all the projects like this | 21:42 |
| harlowja_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataflow_programming (for those who wonder wtf dataflow is, lol); taskflow is something like this | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | but they were missing some monkeypatching or had installation issues or some other thing | 21:42 |
| ttx | harlowja_: but then, that's only my suggestion in incvreasing chances -- feel free to go your own way :) | 21:42 |
| harlowja_ | ttx well this is a cross-project thing, i can't go and make projects do it (and thats not even possible, i am only 1 man, lol) | 21:43 |
| devananda | dhellmann: also, just to make sur ei'm on the same page, what is the impact if oslo were to support both eventlet and asyncio? has that been discussed and I just missed it? | 21:43 |
| ttx | OK, 3 more minutes and we'll cover misc other specs | 21:43 |
| dhellmann | devananda: asyncio will require a level of code change to actually be useful that means we don't want to support both | 21:43 |
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| lifeless | dhellmann: won't we have to to enable migration ? | 21:43 |
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| dhellmann | we would have to support converting things to coroutines | 21:44 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: /whatever/ we choose? | 21:44 |
| devananda | lifeless: exactly .. | 21:44 |
| harlowja_ | devananda supporting native threads, and eventlet threads is do-able imho (but then eventlet...) | 21:44 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: this is why I don't think asyncio is a reasonable approach | 21:44 |
| harlowja_ | but asyncio throws a wrench in | 21:44 |
| asalkeld | do we have a port of eventlet that works on top of asyncio? | 21:44 |
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| lifeless | yes | 21:44 |
| dhellmann | harlowja_: right, I think moving directly to regular threads is more realistic | 21:44 |
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| lifeless | haypo has done that | 21:44 |
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| lifeless | and its in the spec | 21:44 |
| harlowja_ | afaik its asyncio ontop of eventlet, not the reverse | 21:45 |
| asalkeld | lifeless: does that have the same issues? | 21:45 |
| dhellmann | it runs on the eventlet loop, but does not do the monkeypatching part, right? so you still have to convert application code to coroutines to actually achieve any concurrency | 21:45 |
| lifeless | AIUI he has a eventlet mainloop that is an asyncio adapter | 21:45 |
| lifeless | as part of the migration strategy | 21:45 |
| asalkeld | o, we need it the other way around | 21:45 |
| bknudson | keystone has solved the problem already... deprecate eventlet. | 21:45 |
| harlowja_ | https://github.com/1st1/greenio i thought right?; i thought that just plugged eventlet/greenlet into asyncio | 21:46 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: that works for api surface but not for conductor etc | 21:46 |
| sdague | bknudson: that's only possible for things that *only* have an API service | 21:46 |
| harlowja_ | so u still need asyncio | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | right, the problem we have with eventlet is mostly caused by the use of the monkeypatching and not by eventlet's underlying code | 21:46 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: except the race conditions around closed fd's | 21:46 |
| ttx | I don't really expect us to come to a conclusion here :) | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | sdague: oslo.messaging has a threading executor, so apps that have no wsgi interface could port to threads | 21:47 |
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| ttx | Let's move on to cover a few other topics | 21:47 |
| sdague | dhellmann: sure | 21:47 |
| morganfainberg | But I would love to see eventlet and custom wsgi layers go away for the API surface across all of OpenStack (personal preference). Conductor, compute, etc different issue. | 21:47 |
| sdague | dhellmann: but keystone doesn't do that :) | 21:47 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: I don't know the background there | 21:47 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: which I think *may* be fixed. Assuming no more occurences | 21:47 |
| ttx | but I feel a cross-project design summit session to discuss this | 21:47 |
| harlowja_ | or was it http://aioeventlet.readthedocs.org/ i can't remember, ha | 21:47 |
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| ttx | #topic Other openstack-specs discussion | 21:48 |
| harlowja_ | lifeless afaik it was eventlet/greenlet under asyncio; so u still need to be using asyncio concepts (or triolloius concepts) | 21:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other openstack-specs discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:48 | |
| dhellmann | ttx: we should have a lot more discussion online first, and get harlowja_ and haypo to pull together the justification for changing at all so we can at least reach some agreement on that | 21:48 |
| sdague | ttx: well, if we can't get folks to write the meta spec, I don't think that that sesssion will be productive either | 21:48 |
| ttx | #undo | 21:48 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x7f41590> | 21:48 |
| harlowja_ | dhellmann i'll see what i can do | 21:48 |
| dhellmann | harlowja_: thanks | 21:48 |
| ttx | sdague: right | 21:48 |
| harlowja_ | np | 21:48 |
| ttx | #topic Other openstack-specs discussion | 21:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other openstack-specs discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:48 | |
| ttx | * Add library stable release procedures/policy (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/155072/) | 21:48 |
| ttx | We discussed that one last week, but it didn't really trigger a lot of new reviews | 21:48 |
| ttx | I suspect it's more lack of interest or opinion, than a problem with the spec, though | 21:48 |
| lifeless | harlowja_: I'll help, ping me? | 21:48 |
| harlowja_ | lifeless sure | 21:49 |
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| ttx | So I propose we keep it there for another week then consider moving on to rubberstamping | 21:49 |
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| ttx | Read and review if you care! | 21:50 |
| ttx | * Managing stable branch requirements (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159249) | 21:50 |
| dhellmann | figuring out the right approach for stable releases of libraries is going to be more important now that we're capping (and eventually possibly pinning) dependencies in stable branches | 21:50 |
| ttx | This one is the outcome of a discussion that happened on the ML at: | 21:50 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/057367.html | 21:50 |
| ttx | Business summary: | 21:50 |
| ttx | - Only a handful of people work on stable branches | 21:50 |
| ttx | - Stable branches get broken all the time due to their code being incompatible with a new version of a dependency being published on the Internet (abcd>=1.0) | 21:50 |
| ttx | - Recently we added version caps (abcd>=1.0,<=1.1.7) so that stable branches would not pull recent crap, and all was awesome | 21:50 |
| ttx | - That can still fail due to uncapped dependencies of dependencies though | 21:51 |
| ttx | - jogo's proposal is to compute pinned versions all of dependencies, record that in stable branches (as requirements.gate) and use that in stable branch gating | 21:51 |
| adam_g | i've picked up 159249 from jogo and have started a new draft just this afternoon. there are some technical challenges to figure out but i think the idea is solid | 21:51 |
| ttx | - master branches are unaffected by this change and continue to potentially consume new crap, to make sure we don't get stuck with stale deps in future development | 21:51 |
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| ttx | I think it's pretty straightforward, and I wonder if we really needed to go through the openstack-specs process for this | 21:52 |
| ttx | it just neds someone to JFDI | 21:52 |
| devananda | ttx: everything you just said seems good to me | 21:52 |
| ttx | but then we want to document things we do | 21:52 |
| * ttx blames dhellmann kilo motto | 21:52 | |
| adam_g | ttx, we need to think carefully about it. this introduces new ways we can wedge ourselves | 21:53 |
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| jungleboyj | Just as long as we stop breaking the stable branches. | 21:53 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I asked jogo for a spec so we could work out the details before making changes, because a big part of the reason we had so much trouble this cycle was making changes to how requirements work without understanding the side-effects | 21:53 |
| ttx | adam_g: any example ? | 21:53 |
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| dhellmann | we could have done that within the requirements group, but since it also affects stable-maint and eventually the projects producing client libraries I thought an XP spec made sense | 21:53 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ok | 21:53 |
| adam_g | ttx, specifically, how we manage and sync the .gate files. these will end up being more explicit than anything we've used in the past, and we risk making things even more restrictive | 21:54 |
| dhellmann | adam_g: the ability to wedge ourselves is why I prefer caps over pins; it's easy to add a != entry to the file | 21:54 |
| jogo | adam_g: thanks for taking over | 21:54 |
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| ttx | adam_g: if that introduces new way we can wedge ourselves, those should be documented in the spec ? | 21:54 |
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| ttx | adam_g: should we consider it still WIP ? | 21:54 |
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| bknudson | are we expecting lots of changes in the pins after the initial one? | 21:55 |
| adam_g | ttx, the spec is still a WIP, yes. im in favor of the spec process for this change | 21:55 |
| ttx | We can make progress on patchsets in a smaller circle (stable/relmgmt/QA) | 21:55 |
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| ttx | I thought jogo unWIPped it | 21:55 |
| ttx | which signals it's ready for others to review/approve | 21:55 |
| adam_g | bknudson, the version pins are generated based on caps (or other constraints) in requirements.txt | 21:55 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: that depends on how many backports we have | 21:56 |
| ttx | maybe we should reWIP it | 21:56 |
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| adam_g | ttx, sorry. ive been out for the last week, was trying to pick this spec up today. will hopefully have something ready for broader next week | 21:57 |
| adam_g | *broader review | 21:57 |
| ttx | adam_g: I sugegst you re-WIP it while you analyze consequences | 21:58 |
| adam_g | ttx, sure | 21:58 |
| ttx | you might need jogo's help to do that | 21:58 |
| adam_g | jogo, ya ^ | 21:58 |
| ttx | OK, We'll reconsider when it's unWIPped | 21:58 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion & announcements | 21:58 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion & announcements (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:58 | |
| ttx | We had 1:1s syncs today in #openstack-relmgr-office, logs at: | 21:58 |
| ttx | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2015/ptl_sync.2015-03-03-09.00.html | 21:58 |
| ttx | Next week I'll be at the Ops Summit, so if someone wants to pick up chairing this meeting, let me know | 21:59 |
| ttx | Based on the agenda we might just skip it anyway | 21:59 |
| ttx | Anyone else coming to the Ops Summit ? | 21:59 |
| dhellmann | I can do it, if we need a meeting | 21:59 |
| ttx | dhellmann: thx! | 21:59 |
| morganfainberg | Yay dhellmann! | 21:59 |
| * notmyname will be at the ops summit | 21:59 | |
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| * morganfainberg will not be at the ops summit. | 21:59 | |
| ttx | I know sdague and mordred will be too | 22:00 |
| ttx | and thingee | 22:00 |
| sdague | and mtreinish | 22:00 |
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| ttx | alright, we should be able to conspire^Wdrink together | 22:01 |
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| ttx | and that is the end | 22:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:01 |
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| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Mar 3 22:01:37 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-03-03-21.02.html | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-03-03-21.02.txt | 22:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-03-03-21.02.log.html | 22:01 |
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