Tuesday, 2015-05-12

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-openstackstatus- NOTICE: Gerrit has been downgraded to version 2.8 due to the issues observed today. Please report further problems in #openstack-infra.00:56
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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 12 08:00:15 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:00
anteayaraise your nand if you are here for the third party meeting08:00
anteayareminder this meeting is cancelled next week due to summit08:00
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anteayathe next meeting in this time slot is May 2608:01
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kakumahi anteaya08:03
anteayakakuma: hello08:04
kakumaThank you.08:04
anteayaI don't know as I have met you before08:04
anteayawhat system is yours?08:04
kakumaNo. I am first.08:04
anteayaglad you are here08:05
kakumaI operate ryu-ci in neutron.08:05
anteayaoh yes08:05
anteayaI know that system08:05
kakumaI have some question to infra-team.08:05
anteayaask away08:05
kakumaI have the problem for cross-repo on zuul.08:06
anteayawhat problem do you have?08:06
anteayahave you a stacktrace?08:06
kakumaI reported about the problem in StoryBoard(https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2000198).08:06
kakumaI hope that it is checked to infra-team.08:07
kakumaStoryBoard seems not to be checked.08:08
anteayawell the thing is that we would need someone to offer a fix for the problem08:08
anteayaand everyone on infra who knows enough about zuul to do so is busy doing other things08:09
anteayafor instance we upgraded to gerrit on saturday and then had to downgrade last night08:09
kakumaYes i see.08:09
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anteaya#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/063877.html08:10
anteayaso it is a matter of someone coming forward and offering a fix08:10
anteayahave you time to do so?08:11
kakumaSorry, my pc is sometime freeze.08:13
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anteayait happens08:15
kakumacurrently, I have my many work.08:16
anteayaI understand that08:16
anteayabut I didn't want you to think we don't appreciate you filing the bug08:16
anteayawe do08:16
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anteayabut the reason you haven't seen it fixed is that so far we haven't had anyone decide they want to fix it08:17
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kakumaSorry, could you be a little more easily expressed your sentence.08:24
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anteayathank you for filing the bug08:26
anteayawe appreciate that you filed the bug08:26
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anteayathe reason you don't see a fix for the bug you filed08:26
anteayais taht we have noone with time to fix it08:27
anteayais *that we have noone with time to fix it08:27
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kakumaThank you.08:27
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kakumaBy the way, do you know latest version of zuul?08:29
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anteayait came up in this morning's meeting08:30
anteayaI don't know, no08:30
kakumaI got the information that there is CI using zuul of 2.0.1.dev374.08:30
anteayabut the latest tag it 2.0.0 http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/zuul/refs/08:31
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anteayakakuma: do you mind telling me which CI08:31
anteayawe havn't released a 2.0.1 of zuul08:31
anteayaif we did the tag ref would be listed on that page08:32
anteayaalso we don't seem to ever have created a x.x.1 version of zuul08:32
anteayalooking at the past tags08:33
anteayaso someone might be confused08:33
kakumaI got it at krtaylor's meeting.08:33
anteayadid you08:33
anteayado you recall when?08:33
kakumathat is log of http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-05-06-04.00.log.html08:35
kakumaIt maybe cinder CI.08:36
anteayapatrickeast is pretty reliable08:37
anteayabut I have no idea where he is getting his zuul version from08:37
anteayasince I see no such tag coming from us08:37
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anteayaand he doesn't seem to say where his version comes from in the log08:38
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kakumayes i see. thank you for your chec.08:38
anteayaI too am interested to find out where patrickeast's version is coming from08:40
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anteayathanks for showing me the log so I can see for myself08:40
kakumaI have another one question.08:41
anteayaplease ask08:41
kakumaThere is our repository on stackforge.08:42
anteayawhat is the name of the stackforge repository?08:42
kakumait is networking-ofagent.08:42
kakumaHow can I push stable branch on our repository.08:43
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kakumaIs there some documents for that?08:44
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yamamotokakuma: my understanding is that we can create a branch after https://review.openstack.org/#/c/182144/ is merged08:44
anteayathis file controls the permissions you have on your repository: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/project-config/tree/gerrit/acls/stackforge/networking-ofagent.config08:44
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anteayayamamoto: you are correct08:45
anteayawhy do you have permissions for third party ci to vote on your repo?08:45
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anteayais that your ci system?08:45
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yamamotonetworking-ofagent-ci is our ci.  it covers ryu and ofagent.08:46
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anteayabut why have you given verification permissions on your stackforge repo to ofagent-ci?08:47
kakumaThank you yamamoto.08:47
anteayais ryu ci voting on your networking-ofagent repo?08:48
yamamotoanteaya: yes08:48
anteayathanks for letting me know08:48
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yamamotois branch creation procedure documented somewhere?  i only found a procedure for release tags.08:50
anteayathis section is probably the best section: http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/drivers.html#release-management08:51
anteayabut I think it needs to be re-written08:51
anteayattx ^08:52
yamamotothank you.  i'll take a look.08:52
anteayaas we have gone to a workflow of moving straight to stable branches08:52
anteayaand not using proposed branches at all anymore08:52
anteayathere is another section in that manual on feature branches, but it isn't exactly what you need08:53
anteayaas feature branches are for development and suggest you add pushing merge commit permissions to your repo08:53
anteayawhich you don't need if you are working with a branch for release purposes model08:53
yamamotothen, after getting permission, just creating stable/foo in web ui is ok?08:53
ttxanteaya: noted08:53
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anteayayamamoto: yes after the patch that adds the create rule merges then just create the stable/foo branch08:54
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yamamotoanteaya: ok i'll try after the patch merged.  thank you!08:55
anteayaare you creating a branch for release purposes?08:55
anteayathank you for pointing out the patch08:55
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yamamotoanteaya: yes.  we are considering to align our repo with neutron for easier releases08:56
anteayathen that patch that adds the create rule should be all you need08:56
yamamotoas neutron plugin api is still a moving target...08:56
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anteayaanything else we can discuss today?08:58
anteaya2 minutes left in this meeting08:58
yamamotonothing from me08:58
anteayayamamoto: thanks08:58
anteayakakuma: anything else from you today?08:58
kakumanothing from me too08:59
anteayait has been a pleasure to talk to you both today08:59
anteayanext week's meeting in this time slot is cancelled08:59
anteayathe next meeting in this time slot will be May 26th08:59
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anteayathanks so much for your participation09:00
anteayasee you in 2 weeks09:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"09:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 12 09:00:10 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)09:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-05-12-08.00.html09:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-05-12-08.00.txt09:00
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kakumathank you anteaya09:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-05-12-08.00.log.html09:00
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n0ano#startmeeting gantt14:59
openstackMeeting started Tue May 12 14:59:46 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:59
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:59
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)"14:59
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'gantt'14:59
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n0anoanyone here to talk about the scheduler?14:59
lxsliA new challenger appears!15:00
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n0anomore the merrier, welcome15:00
xekhi :)15:00
lxsliyes indeed, welcome15:00
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xekI'm interested in accelerating gantt's progress and then help with the magnum implementation15:01
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n0anolet's get started, hope to keep it short today in prep for the summit15:01
n0ano#topic Vancouver summit15:01
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n0anobad news is I sumitted a proposal for a cross-project session on scheduler and it didn't make it into the program15:02
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bauzasyup, saw thayt15:02
n0anonot sure how we're going to get input from the other projects on what they need from a common scheduler15:03
lxslicinder were interested, right?15:03
bauzasn0ano: I have a neutron session about QoS that I should attend15:03
edleafemaybe we can ping them for a BoF session15:03
bauzasajo: around ?15:03
n0anoedleafe, +115:03
bauzasedleafe: +115:03
ajohi bauzas15:03
n0anoedleafe, even thought BoFs normally don't draw that much attention we should still try that15:03
ajohi, gantt people :)15:03
bauzasajo: could you please remind me when is your QoS session in the Neutron room ?15:03
ajobauzas, sure, let me re-check15:04
bauzasajo: sshhhhht, s/gantt/nova-scheduler/ :)15:04
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n0anobauzas, you say poe-tato, i say pah-tato :-)15:04
ajobauzas: session is 11:00 - 11:40, Thu15:04
bauzasajo: thanks, adding it to my sched15:05
bauzasajo: link ?15:05
* bauzas is lazy15:05
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n0anoxek, will magnum have a session remoted related to scheduling?15:05
ajohttps://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Liberty/Etherpads#Neutron there you also have the link to etherpad, empty yet,15:05
bauzasn0ano: what we should find is some CPL people for that15:05
ajowe will decide on the points during Tomorrow's QoS meeting (14:00 UTC #openstack-meeting-3)15:06
bauzasajo: I was referring to the sched.org link, but nevermind, will do it15:06
n0anoI'm slow today, CPL?15:06
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bauzasn0ano: cross-project liaisons15:06
ajobauzas, ah sorry15:06
xekn0ano, probably not, I don't know15:06
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n0anowe'll have to read the schedule carefully and see if there are any sessions that would be appropriate to make noise from the back of the room15:07
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bauzasn0ano: agreed15:07
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lxsliDo we have a recommended reading list yet?15:08
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n0anothat's kind of the big summit things, anything else about the summit anyone wants to raise15:08
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bauzasajo: n0ano: http://libertydesignsummit.sched.org/event/90cf83ac6ae678ab2e636d5060c587c4#.VVIXhMvDhiU is something we can lurk and shout15:09
ajobauzas, thanks ;)15:09
bauzasajo: I still need to see the conflicts with the Nova room15:09
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ajobauzas: 11:00 - 11:40: Flavors and Image Properties15:10
ajobauzas, that's for nova on tuesday, same time15:10
bauzasajo: that's doable then15:10
ajos/tue/thu/g for ajo15:11
n0anolxsli, what reading list were you looking for (haven't forgotten you :-)15:11
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lxsliiirc John said a reading list would go out pre-summit: session etherpads at least, maybe hot specs?15:12
n0anoaah, that would be good but I don't know anything about it15:12
bauzaslxsli: there is a list of etherpads now15:13
bauzasoops n0ano too15:13
bauzas#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Liberty/Etherpads#Nova15:13
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bauzasI began to draw a few things in the sched etherpads15:13
lxslibauzas: Ah right you are, thanks15:14
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bauzasajo: *sigh* https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-nova-flavors-and-image-properties is actually something I need to participate15:15
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ajobauzas :/, may be we can arrange some cross-team informal meeting15:15
n0anoajo, we'd be delighted to do that15:16
ajook, we'll be in contact during summit then :)15:16
bauzasajo: someone else from the scheduler team can join your talk, tho15:16
ajobauzas, that'd be nice too15:16
bauzasn0ano: interested ?15:17
n0anounfortunately, I need to be at the flavors/image properties session also15:17
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edleafeme too15:17
ajobauzas, I'd like to join your scheduler meeting, but it's colliding with the main development one for neutron 09:00 - 09:40: Neutron Liberty Development15:17
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n0anoI know other people from my team will be at the QoS session if that helps15:17
bauzasajo: okay, sounds like I will ask ttx to serialize the sessions15:18
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n0anobauzas, +115:18
ajobauzas +115:18
ajothat'd be awesome15:18
bauzasso, good news, the Tokyo summit will last 15 days15:18
bauzasworking days of course15:18
ajo15 days? :o15:18
* bauzas kidding15:18
bauzasanyway, I'm diverting15:18
n0anobauzas, you had me going there for a second :-)15:19
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bauzasokay, I think we're pretty close to a thing ?15:19
n0anoI'm good, anyone else have anything?15:19
bauzassaying that we need to socialize and take beers with other teams ?15:19
edleafebauzas: +115:19
n0anobauzas, socialize, beers and BoF15:20
bauzasedleafe: I still remind I owe you one :)15:20
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edleafejust one?15:20
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bauzasn0ano: isn't that what BoF is ?15:20
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bauzasBeers of Feather ?15:20
edleafeBeer of a Feather15:20
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edleafejinx, even15:20
n0anoOK, I appreciate the humor, but unless we have anything else serious15:20
bauzasabout the BoF, how can we set it up ?15:21
bauzasjust raise an email ?15:21
n0anobauzas, you do it at the session, there will be a board15:21
bauzasto the world, ie. -dev ?15:21
bauzasn0ano: oh cool15:21
edleafelike n0ano said, there will be a board, but an email in advance wouldn't hurt15:21
n0anoposting an email to -dev saying we intend to setup a BoF would be good15:22
n0anoedleafe, jink15:22
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bauzasn0ano: I guess an email to -dev@ is also valuable since even if the room is packed, not all the interested people will attend our session15:22
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bauzasokay, let's trigger for on Monday15:22
bauzaswe need a room first15:22
n0anoI proposed the initial x-project, I'll post the message to -dev15:22
bauzasn0ano: cool, you got my blessing15:22
edleafen0ano: thanks15:23
n0ano#action n0ano to post email about x-project scheduling BoF15:23
bauzasso, open discussion or we can call it wrap ?15:23
n0anobauzas, let's see15:23
n0ano#topic opens15:23
*** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:23
n0anoanything new?15:23
n0anohearing crickets, speak now or...15:24
n0anoOK, tnx everyone and we'll see you next week15:24
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:24
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 12 15:24:57 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:25
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-05-12-14.59.html15:25
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-05-12-14.59.txt15:25
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-05-12-14.59.log.html15:25
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ayoungKEYSTONE!          ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, bknudson, breton, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, stevemar, topol, wanghong18:00
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ayoung#startmeeting Keystone18:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 12 18:00:12 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ayoung. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
raildoyay \o/18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:00
morganfainbergo/ here somewhat18:00
bknudsonyou can just tweet me18:00
dstanekbknudson: now you've opened a can of worms18:00
ayoungAgenda is https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting18:00
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ayoungMy topic on testing from last week should have been removed.18:01
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gyeebknudson, whatever you tweet can be held against you in the court of law18:01
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ayoungReminder:  No IRC meeting next week18:01
ayoungSee you at summit, or catch up the following week18:02
ayoungWeek afterwards is summit recap18:02
bretonany cool talks to listen at the summit?18:02
breton*keystone-related talks18:02
ayoungGive you a few seconds if you want to post anything on the last two itesm of the agenda, but at this point, anything important should be slated for summit18:02
ayoungbreton, Mine!18:03
topolsome federated identity talks might be of itnerest :-)18:03
morganfainbergNo meeting the week post summit either18:03
ayoungDynamic Policy!18:03
rodrigodstopol, ++18:03
ayoung6/2 Post Summit rundown18:03
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rodrigodsthere is also a keynote18:03
bknudsonare there any conflicts that people see in the schedule?18:03
marekdtopol: is going to be broadcasted so i can watch it?18:03
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ayoungAnything on Specs?18:03
dstanekbknudson: there are 2 policy sessions in the same time slot on one of the days18:04
topolmarekd?  you are going to be there, correct18:04
amakarovHMT improvement18:04
ayoungOK...weekly bug reports:18:04
marekdtopol: i hope so!18:04
ayoungGot one unassigned in audit.  gordon is no longer Audit point man...anyone want to take it?18:05
bknudsondstanek: which ones are those?18:05
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ayoungtopol, any idea who is working on audit these days?18:06
dstanekbknudson: Tues @ 44018:06
topolayoung, me and stevemar18:07
topolayoung what happened to gordon?18:07
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ayoungtopol, care to triage https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystonemiddleware/+bug/145205518:07
openstackLaunchpad bug 1452055 in keystonemiddleware "Improvement for notification support detection in audit middleware" [Undecided,New]18:07
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bknudsondstanek: there's a cross-project and then one for group based policy18:07
dstanekbknudson: and even Wed at 1118:07
ayoungtopol, he's PTL for something else, I think\18:07
topolayoung, sure will take a look18:07
bknudsonI don't know what group based policy is18:07
ayoungbknudson, not us18:07
ayoungthat is neutron18:07
morganfainbergSome Keystone folks are working on it there's a whole core team. But it moves pretty slow18:08
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bknudsonwhat is it?18:08
bknudsonthey have a lot of sessions18:08
morganfainbergAudit that is18:08
morganfainbergNot gbp18:08
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ayoungbknudson, Group Policy has something to do with placement of VMs and Firewalls and things not Keystone18:08
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ayoungtopol ,  Gordon is PTL for  Metering/Monitoring (Ceilometer)18:09
dstanekayoung: so not really policy related?18:09
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ayoungdstanek, that is why I named my presentation Policy for Access Control18:09
bknudsonthere's some security sessions I'll likely go to that conflict with keystone sessions18:09
ayoungthe term policy has been co-opted...as well it should be18:09
topolayoung, did officially bug out? Thats fine. I just missed it on the mailing list if he did18:09
geoffarnoldGBP is for declarative network provisioning18:09
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ayoungtopol, nah, I just don't treat him as my personal Audit expert anymore.  Gordon doesn't scale18:10
geoffarnoldcrudely, GBP is to Neutron as Heat is to Nova18:10
topolbknudson, I can get ou connected on the group base dpolicy stuff18:10
topolbknudson just understand its not policy like we think policy in Keystone18:11
ayounggeoffarnold, doesn't Heat cause a  star to go Nova?  So GBP is what causes Neutron to explode?18:11
geoffarnoldNeutron is already at critical state....18:11
ayounganyway..I'll alloce 5 more minutes for gneral convo and then call the meeting.18:11
topolayoung, I think it depends who is holding the detontator18:11
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ayoungAnyone else headed from Seattle to Vancouver on Sunday?18:12
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lbragstadno, but I'll be there Saturday18:12
lbragstadI assume most are getting in on Sunday?18:12
* breton will be there saturday evening18:12
topolayoung, I arrive on Sunday18:12
geoffarnoldGBP is on interest to Keystone only in the same way that Heat is: lots of delegated "on behalf on" authorization18:12
* marekd sunday18:12
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geoffarnoldof interest18:12
morganfainbergTrain from PDX to Vancouver on sat18:12
geoffarnoldflying up Friday; playing tourist Sat/Sun18:13
jsavaki'll be there sunday18:13
ayounglbragstad, yeah.  I had been told you could take a ferry, but it turns out there is no Ferry from Seattle to Vancouver.  You have to go to Victoria frist..would take 8+ hours18:13
gyeewhat's the url to the wiki on getting around vancouver18:13
gyeeI missed that email18:13
bretonwho's going to have a big print of a keystone specie?18:14
ayoungwas told train is the best option, but the train either leaves too early or too late18:14
* topol you all get time to play tourist. Im very jealous18:14
ayoungbreton, you asking us to counterfit?18:14
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raildogyee, there is some good informations here: https://www.openstack.org/summit/vancouver-2015/about-vancouver/#getting-around18:15
ayoungOK...one more minute, and then moving back to #openstack-keystone18:15
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:16
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 12 18:16:03 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:16
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-05-12-18.00.html18:16
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-05-12-18.00.txt18:16
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-05-12-18.00.log.html18:16
gyeeraildo, I thought there was another one, similar to the one for paris18:16
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tchaypoI love an awkward silence18:59
anteayalike the start of a theatre production18:59
jeblairhouse to half... and... go.19:00
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mordredlook at all these lovely fine people19:00
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jeblairand bots19:01
jeblair#startmeeting infra19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue May 12 19:01:02 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:01
jeblair#link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:01
jeblair#link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-05-05-19.03.html19:01
jeblair#topic Announcements19:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
jeblair#link design summit schedule http://libertydesignsummit.sched.org/type/design+summit/infrastructure#.VVJOMuSVtpg19:01
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jeblairthat's what i pulled together out of the etherpad we were working on19:01
jeblairit is, as always, subject to change, especially this week19:02
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jeblairyou'll note that the "work sessions" have boring titles but actual descriptions of what they entail19:02
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anteayayay for boring titles19:03
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jeblairthe intent (this is an openstack-wide thing, not an infra decision) is to keep people from just showing up because the title looks interesting19:03
jeblairso while we might expect a little bit of an audience (though it's still not encouraged) for the fishbowl sessions19:03
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jeblairthe work sessions should be much less of a 'show'19:03
jeblairand then the meetup has no fixed agenda or even a description attached19:04
jeblairso while we still have things that we think we're going to hack on going in, but we can decide on our agenda on that day19:04
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jeblairany questions or comments?19:05
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pleia2there's also a translations session on *monday* that some of us should try to attend (I'm running it with Daisy), details coming together here https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Vancouver-I18n-WG-session I expect we'll want use some time on Friday for this work too since all the right people will be together in person (and time zone!), like we did in Paris19:05
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jeblairpleia2: what's the time slot for that?19:05
pleia2jeblair: tentatively 2:50pm - 3:30pm19:06
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pleia2the etherpad will be updated if that changes, and I'll try to let people know19:06
mordredfyi - I will be in an ansible session monday afternoon- anyone who wants to talk about the new ansible modules is welcome to come19:06
mordredthis is part of the "associated projects get space near the summit" program19:07
anteayapresentation or discussion?19:07
anteayacool, I would like to attend19:07
jeblair#topic Actions from last meeting19:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:08
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jeblairfungi check our cinder quota in rax-dfw19:08
jeblairnot sure if fungi is back yet19:08
jeblair#action fungi check our cinder quota in rax-dfw19:08
jeblair#action jeblair make the priority effort gerrit topics more visible to reduce the need to shout for reviews in this meeting19:08
jeblairi am almost there ^19:08
jeblairi think i'll be able to get to that this week19:09
tchaypomordred: is there a link to a schedule thing for that?19:09
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mordredtchaypo: nope - I'll try to get people info19:09
fungii am back now19:09
fungisorry about that19:09
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pleia2wb fungi19:10
fungiand no, i did not get around to checking our quota ;)19:10
jeblairexcellent, action item already action itemed!19:10
fungiyour precognitive skills are beyond compare19:10
pabelangermordred, Ya, plan to attend the ansible stuff too.  See that the vibe is like19:10
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jeblair#topic Schedule next project renames19:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Schedule next project renames (Meeting topic: infra)"19:10
jeblairi don't want to do this now, does anyone else? :)19:11
anteayaha ha ha19:11
fungipost summit19:11
jeblairyep, let's do this next post summit19:11
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jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet)19:11
fungii have to catch a flight very early saturday, so er, friday afternoon would even be a bit of a stretch for me19:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:11
clarkbya and everyone is busy enough with summit prep19:12
jeblairnibalizer: you pinged?19:12
nibalizeryes so https://review.openstack.org/#/c/178887/ is part of a plan cooked up in -infra19:12
nibalizeras a way to accoplish the linked spec19:12
nibalizerso sorry for anyone who is administratively -2'd for that19:12
nibalizerthe dependent change (causing the admin -2s) has merged I think at this point though19:12
nibalizererp this is the review i meant https://review.openstack.org/#/c/180783/19:13
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/18078319:13
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nibalizerjeblair: point is, I think the only refactors I needed to do touching o_p::template and o_p::server are done19:13
jeblairoh this is the template reorg?19:13
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nibalizerso those admin -2's are no longer needed19:14
nibalizerjeblair: yes19:14
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jeblairnibalizer: excellent, i will remove them asap, thanks19:14
clarkband for those following along the -2s were on other changes to avoid conflicts19:14
nibalizerthis spec http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/infra-specs/tree/specs/server_base_template_refactor.rst19:14
anteayaclarkb: thanks19:14
nibalizerjeblair: well thats what I think... do you concur that we dont' need the -2's any more?19:14
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nibalizerbetter link: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/server_base_template_refactor.html19:15
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jeblairnibalizer: they were mostly to make your life easier and avoid lots of rebases, so i'm good if you're good :)19:15
nibalizerokay, good :)19:16
nibalizerthen they can be removed, thanks for helping with that19:16
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nibalizerand thats all I had from a 'downstream-puppet' place19:16
jeblairany other priority effort topics?19:16
clarkboh I have one19:17
fungino blockers to report for the stuff i'm working on anyway19:17
clarkbjhesketh has written a devstack plugin for os-loganalyze, which will allow us to test that with real swift19:17
clarkbjust pointing it out because its a thing and not something we have done before19:17
jeblairthat's kinda cool :)19:17
fungigreat idea19:18
clarkbbut its possible nodepool may want to do something similar19:18
mordredwell, almost - we are doing functional testing with shade against devstack too19:18
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mrmartinaskbot at my side19:18
mordredhowever, I do agree it's super cool19:18
clarkbas the next step beyond the "thsi is how you nodepool + devstack"19:18
clarkbmordred: you aren't using a plugin are you?19:18
mordredclarkb: no need to19:18
clarkboh right since shade isn't a service19:18
fungimake cloud, point shade at cloud'19:18
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mordredI fully support the use of devstack nodes to test infra uses of openstacks19:19
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Swift logs)19:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Swift logs) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:19
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jeblairsorry, late on the topic switch there :)19:19
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* mordred hands jeblair a sad looking bowl of alfalfa19:19
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* jeblair ruminates19:20
jeblairmrmartin: did you want to talk about askbot?19:20
mrmartinjust a short comment here19:20
jeblair19:20 < jeblair> mrmartin: did you want to talk about askbot?19:20
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Askbot migration)19:20
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Askbot migration) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:20
zarois swift log something we can setup for review-dev as well?19:20
mrmartinok, I'll be quick19:21
clarkbzaro: it should be completely independent of review-dev19:21
clarkbzaro: it is for zuul jobs19:21
mrmartinso we have an issue with actual ask.o.o google auth, because it is deprecated, and need to change to g+19:21
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clarkbmrmartin: specifically openid right?19:21
zaroclarkb: we can talk about it later since topic has turned.19:22
mrmartinclarkb: yeap19:22
mrmartinso we the askbot-devel (which is a remote github repo independent from us) contains all of the patches now19:22
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mrmartinbut as we discussed previously, we need to consume askbot-devel from this github repo directly, which requires a lot of changes in puppet-askbot module19:23
clarkbmrmartin: the big difference being pypi release vs source install?19:23
mrmartinand to make the story nice, I was running into different issues that was related to askbot release management and the missing Q/A19:23
mrmartinclarkb: yes19:24
jeblairmrmartin: would they be so kind as to make a release?19:25
fungisounds like our askbot dev/sandbox server is going to turn into upstream askbot qa19:25
mordredfungi: it won't be the first project that's the case for19:25
jeblairfungi: it won't be a first for openstack :/19:25
mrmartinjeblair: last time we agreed to use master branch and feature / development branch to separate the testing and release branches19:26
mrmartinso the actual puppet-askbot covers that19:26
jeblairoh ok19:26
fungimrmartin: well, that was for the askbot-theme repo, right?19:26
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fungi(or whatever it's called)19:26
mrmartinyeah, askbot-theme was the easy part19:26
mrmartinbut we are doing the same for askbot-devel (the external one)19:26
mrmartinso we don't need to push the version numbers of pip packages for every release19:27
jeblairright now it only installs askbot via pip19:27
mrmartinuntil the package maintainer keeps that policy19:27
mrmartinso it is a major change, and it was the reason the I commented out all the askbot related resource in the current ask.o.o manifests19:27
mrmartinand it is a great momemnt to change from precise to trusty19:28
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jeblairi'm starting to lose the narrative thread here... is there a proposal we should be discussing?19:29
mrmartinso first we can deploy the askbot-staging.o.o based on new manifests, and if it works well, it is easy to upgrade the ask.o.o site19:29
fungii'm a little worried about trying to arrange another askbot production server migration in the next few days before so many of us pack up and ship out to vancouver19:29
fungibut staging seems doable19:29
mrmartinI'm sure we cannot to do the prod server migration before the summit19:29
clarkbits also worth pointing out that issues like this are why we gave up on askbot in the past19:29
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clarkbits great that we are motivated to help fix things so ++ on making stuff go19:30
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mrmartinso the question here, fungi, do you have an idea how to deliver the askbot patches with google-plus auth changes within a reasonable time?19:30
mrmartinI vote to keep the actual workflow, and deploy askbot-staging before the summit if we can, and do the prod migration after summit19:31
fungii guess it depends on how we define reasonable19:31
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fungithat seems like a timeframe i can help with19:31
jeblairokay, so let me see if i can summarize: needed patches are in the upstream askbot repo.  they refuse to make a release.  you think the current state of the askbot upstream repo is not production ready.  you want to deploy from git on the staging site.  then you want to later deploy from git (what version?  some tested hash?) on the production site.19:31
fungii wanted to get back to reviewing your outstanding puppet patches for teh dev server today19:31
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* nibalizer also has the askbot puppet patches next in the stack of things to review19:32
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mrmartinjeblair: we deploy the master branch from askbot-devel repo, and they'll deliver dev patches into a separate branch19:32
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mrmartinso we can support rolling releases this way, and we don't need to handle the specific version numbers or tags for every new production grade release19:33
fungiso basically "master" is intended to be their stable branch upstream, sounds like19:33
jeblairok, fwiw, we can deploy the latest pip release too19:33
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jeblairso deploying from git is not required in order to have auto rolling upgrades19:34
jeblairdeploying from git is fine if that's what we want to do, just wanted to make sure we weren't doing it solely because we didn't want to bump version numbers19:34
mrmartinok, but with this suggesting we'll deploy from git for staging and pip for production?19:34
mrmartinI support to deploy from a single source19:34
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fungijeblair: keep in mind they're not "our" version numbers or "our" repos or "our" packages on pypi19:35
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jeblairfungi: i understand19:35
mrmartinI know, but the same is true for pypi19:35
jeblairwe should deploy from whatever is appropriate for the project19:35
fungiso it sounds like we want to deploy from git to get fixes which are not in the release packages19:35
mrmartinso it will work until the app maintainer keeps the policy of master / feature branch commit19:35
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jeblairi was specifically responding to the idea that we should use git because mrmartin did not want to bump version numbers19:36
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jeblairif "upstream git master" is actually "the maintained stable distribution of askbot", that's fine.  i have no idea.  :)19:36
fungioh, got it. i interpreted that as we wanted to deploy from git because evgeny doesn't want to bump version numbers19:36
mrmartinto clarify I don't have any problem with version numbers, I have a problem with a different method of deployment of staging and prod servers19:36
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jeblairmrmartin: okay, so you want to deploy both sites from git.  do you want both to track git master?19:37
mrmartinjeblair: yes, so it's not an openstack project, and we just have a little influence what happens there19:38
fungigot it. so if he's at least tagging versions in git and those are versions we want to use, it's easy to use one mechanism to deploy from a tag name or a branch or a specific sha19:38
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mrmartinno, the staging will track git / feature /development branch, and prod will track the master19:38
mrmartinbut it is up to us, because the Vcsrepo gives us the freedom to select between tags or master branch19:39
jeblairokay.  i am surprised that the outcome of a discussion around whether askbot upstream can be relied upon to make reliable stable releases is "production should continuously track upstream master", but i will take your word for it :)19:39
fungithat seems fine to me. it's not dissimilar to how we're consuming etherpad19:39
mrmartinI've spent the last two weeks to remove bugs from the new release and reverse engineer why some non-documented config setting was changed19:39
jeblairand yeah, if/when it breaks, we can always pin a tag or commit19:39
fungii mean, it's certainly not an ideal development model, but we're not the upstream devs19:40
mrmartinit is not an ideal development model, I agree, but that's we have actually19:40
jeblair#agreed switch puppet-askbot to deploy from git19:40
jeblairyeah? ^19:40
mrmartinin an ideal world I like to move-in the entire project under our gating / code review system, or build-up a proper governance model for the project19:41
fungialso having it deployed from vcsrepo in puppet makes it marginally easier for us to switch to a fork of the project if we absolutely have to19:41
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jeblair#agreed switch askbot-staging to CD from upstream git development branch19:41
jeblair#agreed switch askbot production to CD from upstream git master branch (some time after openstack summit)19:41
jeblairi have all that right?19:41
mrmartinok, great, thanks19:41
fungithat looks correct to me19:42
jeblairmrmartin: thanks, i think this discussion was really helpful19:42
jeblairanything else on askbot?19:42
mrmartinand deploy the askbot-staging if we can before the summit :)19:42
jeblairright; time permitting :)19:43
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jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Upgrading Gerrit)19:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Upgrading Gerrit) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:44
jeblairso, i reckon we ought to chat about this19:44
jeblairas fungi said: "this did not work as planned"19:44
* fungi sighs19:44
jeblairfrom my pov, we're safely back on 2.8, and we are not under high pressure to upgrade immediately19:44
zarono response from mailing list yet19:45
mordredsufferring is defined as reality not meeting pre-conceived expectations19:45
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mordredjeblair: ++19:45
clarkbjeblair: yup, stevebaker ran into some trouble though, was hoping stevebaker would respond to the upgrade/downgrade thread with details but I didn't see that19:45
jeblairso i think the next steps are to reproduce the problem out of production, and when that happens, we can develop/confirm a fix, then talk about trying it again.19:45
zaroany aftermath() from downgrade that i don't know of?19:45
fungione of the nova devs mentioned to me last night that the impact was "barely noticed" so maybe we do a much better job of shielding our dev community from this sort of havoc than we think we do at least19:45
jeblairclarkb: er, do we have _any_ details on that trouble?19:46
clarkbzaro: stevebaker does not have a working web client19:46
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clarkbjeblair: from what I could gather late last night when logged in stevebaker's web client throws and exception and does nothing19:46
mordredI had some ideas on some ways in which we might want to structure review-dev to accomplish this - I will write them up in a spec19:46
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clarkbjeblair: he thought it may be because he had made settings changes to his account on the 2.10 side but looking at the accounts table where that appeared to be stored I didn't see anything off19:47
jeblairfungi: yeah, but i know that a significant number of old changes were causing complete failures, and that in turn was taking out dashboards, queries, etc; so i think our state on 2.10 was unsustainable in the long term19:47
jeblairmordred: thanks19:47
jeblairi'm glad that people were able to get some work done while we futzed with it though :)19:47
zaromordred: clarkb and i discussed putting copying data from review to review-dev.19:48
fungijeblair: no question there, just saying i feel a little bit better about the actual perceived impact19:48
mordredzaro: yup. I agree with that19:48
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clarkbjeblair: maybe someone else can look at that row in the accounts table and tell me if they notice anything off?19:49
zaroi should clarify, we planned to copy over all the data with passwords removed.19:49
clarkbI basically compared my account to stevebaker's19:49
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fungioh, as far as dumping production data, i did successfully script stripping out the http passwords from a mysqldump at one point. i can dig that back up19:50
fungiif it's of potential help19:50
clarkbfungi: I think that would help yes19:51
zaroalso might need to simulate activity on review-dev somehow.19:51
jeblairi think a quick spec for how to reconfigure review-dev would be good -- there are things we can do in the current setup that we may not be able to with a production copy, and vice versa19:51
jeblairso would be good to get all on the same page there19:51
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jeblairand sounds like that's the next step for this effort19:52
fungigenerating a lot of load is probably not hard. simulating the nature of our production load is probably not going to be feasible but hopefully also unnecessary to reproduce the error19:52
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zaroshould we hold off putting review data on review-dev until spec is reviewed?19:52
jeblairanyway, thanks to everyone that worked on the upgrade, and sorry it didn't work out19:52
clarkboh maybe we can diff stevebaker's account row between previous 2.8 state and current19:53
clarkbmordred: ^ maybe you can point me at where the old copy is19:53
jeblairzaro: if we can, or at least let's not permanently delete anything from review-dev yet19:53
fungizaro: i think we probably should hold off, yes, we want to make sure we don't cause any information leakage or make a nuisance out of it19:53
mordredclarkb: it's in root's home dir19:53
clarkbmordred: thanks19:54
zaroroger that19:54
jeblair#topic Open discussion19:54
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:54
ttxjeblair: do you plan to create skeletons for all etherpadds or shall moderators create each ?19:54
ttx(infra track session etherpads)19:54
jeblairprobably goes without saying, but just in case, i don't think we'll have an infra meeting next week :)19:54
nibalizerhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/178887/ hasn't converged so everyone go weigh in on that19:55
clarkbit sounds like most of the momentum for puppet functional testing is behind beaker. Thats fine but one of the first things we will need to solve is how to configure module repos such that puppet tests the correct stuff in the gate and on a developers laptop19:55
zaroclarkb: so what i meant was that logs on review-dev aren't accessible from gerrit.  would like to see that work.19:55
jeblairttx: oh good question; moderators i think19:55
pabelangerquick note from me, grafyaml is shaping up nice.  Have a review up for it to pull under -infra: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/182045/19:55
ttxok, will create mine tomorrow19:55
jeblairttx: is there a summit etherpad page yet?19:55
pabelangerstill need to do governance review19:55
clarkbjeblair: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/181694/ is an update to zuul-cloner that I think facilitates zuul-cloners use for beaker setup. Other reviews would be great too19:55
clarkbzaro: I don't understand what you mean by that19:56
clarkbzaro: are we talking about job logs? or are we talking about logs for the gerrit service itself?19:56
jeblairttx, mordred, clarkb: if you have a moment to create etherpads for the fishbowl sessions and add them to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Liberty/Etherpads that would be great19:56
clarkbjeblair: can do19:56
Rockygquery  on next steps to get refstack.org up and maintained(well, monitored) in infra.  krotscheck helped get the webserver together and it's running on refstack.net (davidlenwell's vm) right now.19:56
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fungiRockyg: a puppet module which deploys the service would be the next step19:57
mordredRockyg: general steps are that we need to get the dns transferred to jbryce if it's not already, then we'll want to get the puppet modules for running the webserver info infra repos19:57
krotscheckfungi: Already done.19:57
jeblairRockyg: if you could write a spec for infra-specs that would be great :)19:57
fungimordred: dns looks taken care of now (for refstack.org)19:57
mordredfungi: awesome19:58
Rockygkewl.  And the foundation has the dns19:58
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fungikrotscheck: oh! awesome. i somehow missed the puppet module19:58
krotscheckfungi: It's not a project yet. Let me go make that pull request.19:58
krotscheck(it's in github)19:58
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jeblairRockyg: so the steps are: infra-spec, create puppet module, then we deploy it19:59
RockygAlso something to think about.  We need another dns (in one of the reviews, don't know which at the moment) and we might consider coming up with a process for foundation/infra server stuff19:59
zaroclarkb: job logs19:59
RockygAnd will create the infras spec shortly.  Probably not ready before after summit.19:59
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jeblairRockyg: well, we have a process for creating servers: http://ci.openstack.org/sysadmin.html#adding-a-new-server20:00
jeblairthat's kind of our existential purpose :)20:00
* fungi is a machine that makes more machines20:00
mordredI like questioning my existential purpose20:00
Rockygjeblair: cool.  Just thinking about when the ownership is cross infra and foundation20:01
jeblair(it could probably use an update; i'm working on that)20:01
jeblairRockyg: oh, we don't think in those terms20:01
jeblairRockyg: the project owns its own destiny20:01
jeblairwe enable the project to run itself :)20:01
RockygOh, good.  Perhaps we can discuss more at the summit.20:01
fungiRockyg: the foundation doesn't have any sysadmins. they're just a foundation. they employ a couple sysadmins and donate them to the infra team20:01
mordredjeblair: ++20:01
RockygUh, but we're only stackforge so far?20:01
mordredRockyg: doesn't matter - we're all one big happy family20:02
Rockygand have a ways to go to get to big tent, but we are looking at what we need to get there :-)20:02
jaypipesdo we have a TC meeting now?20:02
jeblairand we should let the projcet run its governance now :)20:02
mordredjeblair: bah20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 12 20:02:29 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-05-12-19.01.html20:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-05-12-19.01.txt20:02
fungiRockyg: i believe the stackforge legacy of refstack to be an unfortunate footnote in its history, from an old regime which had different goals20:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-05-12-19.01.log.html20:02
lifelessyes, thats what I was expecting.20:02
ttxAnyone here for the TC meeting ?20:02
RockygThanks fungi!  and all20:02
flaper87jaypipes: long arm?20:02
annegentlejaypipes: long arm20:02
* devananda lurks20:03
jaypipesflaper87: of the LAW.20:03
ttx#startmeeting tc20:03
openstackMeeting started Tue May 12 20:03:06 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:03
ttxToday's meeting agenda:20:03
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:03
ttx#topic Update tags in projects.yaml based on validate_tags20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Update tags in projects.yaml based on validate_tags (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/17926920:03
ttxLet's start easy20:03
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ttxI think all of those make sense.20:03
ttxWe should probably have some bot to propose those regularly, instead of relying on Joe20:03
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jogottx: ++20:04
jeblairjogo isn't a bot?20:04
ttxWe already have 7 +1s so I'll approve it soon, unless someone objects20:04
jogojeblair: not yet20:04
jaypipesjeblair: :)20:04
annegentlejogo: for the commit message, you have for openstack-manuals "Ignored since has stable/juno just not Kilo" meaning, not changing the tag since we intend to have stable/kilo?20:04
ttxSo, waiting 30 more seconds and will approve20:05
jogoannegentle: correct, I said that under the assumption that you will soon have a stable/kilo branch. since my understanding is docs are released after20:05
annegentlejogo: yep, sounds good20:05
ttxok approved20:06
jaypipesjust kiddin.20:06
ttx#topic Add tc-approved-release tag for trademarkable projects20:06
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*** openstack changes topic to "Add tc-approved-release tag for trademarkable projects (Meeting topic: tc)"20:06
ttxjaypipes: save you energy for the next topics :)20:06
ttxFor this topic and the next, I don't expect final resolution this week, and I think we can discuss some of it in-person next week20:07
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annegentleand your long arm20:07
ttxSo I'll aggressively timebox the discussion on those so that we have time to cover other topics20:07
ttxSo... tc-approved-release20:07
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/17979920:07
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ttxTo summarize the discussion so far, I think the tension here is between two approaches20:07
ttxdhellmann defines a set of rules that may be used as a "TC stamp" filter on top of the natural deliverables of OpenStack project teams20:08
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ttxjaypipes fears we'll soon be back into judging projects value, something we've been trying to get out of20:08
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ttxPersonally I would be fine with the 'tc-approved-release' just designating all the code repositories that are server API stuff produced by OpenStack Project Teams20:08
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ttxThat said, I think nothing in Doug's text really prevents us from doing that "inclusive" approach20:08
jaypipesttx: the upgradeability thing would.20:08
ttxIn particular, "the TC considers the project suitable for consideration for trademark use" is definitely compatible with an inclusive approach.20:08
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sdagueso, the point of this tag is from it the board can pick stuff for trademarking, right?20:09
lifelesstc-eligible-trademarks ?20:09
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dhellmannif we want to defer all of that decision to the board, then I'm ok with something like what ttx proposes20:09
russellbit's the superset of projects used when developing commercial trademark programs20:09
ttxsdague: the point of the tag is to replace the defcore use for "integrated release"20:09
dhellmannlifeless: I chose the name based on the way it is described in the bylaws20:09
dhellmannlifeless: I hate the name, but consistency20:09
lifelessdhellmann: yes, I saw that prose.20:09
ttxthey used to pick within the integrated release, they will pick within the tc-approved-release tag instead20:10
sdaguedoes it make sense to let the tail wag the dog a little here and say, "hey board, what do you actually want in this" and we then decide if we're cool with that answer and send it back as such?20:10
lifelessdhellmann: I value consistency less than clarity here, since none of the other tags are mapped to the bylaws.20:10
lifelessdhellmann: there's nothing to be consistent *with*20:10
jaypipessdague: we did try that last year, like three times, remember? :)20:10
zanebI'm wondering if the requirements could be tags rather having a separate set of requirements to judge20:10
sdaguebecause, honestly, I feel like my opinion of "trade markable" seems pretty useless20:10
jaypipeszaneb: that is *precisely* what I was after.20:10
russellbsdague: indeed, wait for demand ... it'd be nova, glance, keystone, swift, cinder ... something like that20:11
jgriffithsdague: haven't we tried that already though?20:11
ttxHmm, taking a step back for a moment20:11
lifelessjaypipes: zaneb: +1 from me20:11
dhellmannso we need to decide how much we care about the trademark decisions, and whether we want our recommendations for trademark use to reflect just community participation or also some level of quality -- I expect defcore to apply the latter filter whether we do or not20:11
jgriffithsdague: not saying I disagree, just saying historically that hasn't worked so well20:11
sdaguejgriffith: no, I don't think we did, I thought we said "we're not culling the list for you"20:11
ttxWe are in this situation because we ended up designating the full "integrated release" as trademarkable components rather than a subset of it, if mordred remembers20:11
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ttxthe decision back then was...20:11
mordredI think we have a set right now - it's what has been the integrated release20:11
dhellmannlifeless: I am trying to be consistent with the way the board will talk about this list of projects20:11
jgriffithdhellmann: what if we just have trademarked tag and the board is responsible for assigning it :)20:11
mordredI'd suggest that we don't change it20:11
ttxthat we should not pick out a subset20:11
russellbmordred: ++20:12
sdaguemordred: sure20:12
ttxsince all of it is "openstack projects"20:12
mordredand that in the future we don't change it until someone makes a request20:12
annegentlezaneb: I wondered that too, but I think the tags inform the board's selections, and the point is having a wide base to select from, I believe.20:12
flaper87mordred: ++20:12
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russellbreally don't think it's worth wasting too much time on this20:12
mordredand at that point, consider that request like people20:12
sdaguemordred: right, that's where I was headed, but you got there more clearly20:12
mordredbut for now20:12
russellbdefcore isn't going to move beyond what was in integrated release *any* time soon20:12
dhellmannmordred: yes, that's fine. I'm trying to define some set of things we'd evaluate at that point20:12
mordredI doubt any human is going to request new projects be added to the set for a WHILE20:12
mordreddhellmann: totally20:12
russellbmordred: agree20:12
lifelessdhellmann: so, I *don't want* a tag that says 'approved' unless thats actually what it means.20:12
jeblairmordred: hrm.  i would expect it almost immediately.  :)20:12
lifelessIF we are going to be approving, not just passing-through, fine.20:12
russellbjeblair: what would you expect?20:13
lifelessdoing otherwise sends entirely confusing messages everywhere.20:13
sdaguejeblair: what would you expect the board wants to build a trademark on?20:13
jeblairrussellb: someone to ask for an expansion of the tc-approved release.20:13
russellbadding to the set is pretty meaningless unless defcore is doing something with it20:13
lifelessand education 1000 contributors is harder than educating 20 board members20:13
dhellmannrussellb: true, but if we're the first hurdle expect to be jumped20:13
jaypipeslifeless: you sure about that? ;)20:13
flaper87lifeless: agreed, I cought up with the review earlier this week and if it weren't  for dhellmann's note, I'd have been really confused20:13
ttxmordred: then how about a simplified tag definition that says "this tag describes the a superset of trademarkable projects as requested in the bylaws" ?20:13
jeblairi would expect the big-tent projects to ask for that, and then for us to be in the position that we were previously if we set ourselves up as gatekeepers.20:13
lifelessjaypipes: well, they did vote me in. So no.20:13
flaper87ttx: like it20:14
mordredjeblair: sorry - by "people"20:14
ttxI want to remove any other cumulative meaning, otherwise we are back at square one20:14
sdaguejeblair: so, being in that tag is only useful if there is a trademark program on the horizon. So I believe we limit requests to modify it from the board20:14
mordredI meant the Board or the User Committee20:14
jaypipesjeblair: that is precisely my worry, as I noted on the patch comments.20:14
jeblairmordred: OUCH.20:14
mordredunless the board or the user committee requests of us that we add a new project20:14
mordredI'd suggest taht we not20:14
mordredthat way someone like Tim Bell can say to the user committee -"hey, we'd REALLY like it if magnum were considered a reuqired thing"20:15
mordredwhich is great input for us20:15
russellbyes, that's a good idea20:15
russellbwe really don't want to be wasting our time on this20:15
mordredI think removing projects we have now is rife with peril and not worth it20:15
jeblairmordred: my lack of personhood aside, that's an interesting approach.  so we act with discretion, but only accept input from certain channels.20:15
flaper87mordred: ++ (again)20:15
sdagueit's not even about being a required thing20:15
ttxFrankly, I don't think that matters that much.20:15
mordredjeblair: ++20:15
lifelessmordred: one caveat20:15
mordredso that we don't become uber gatekeepers again20:16
mordredwhich is very borin20:16
lifelesswhat if e.g. nova and neutron and cinder factor out their quota stuff to a new service20:16
lifelesswe'd include that as its a transitive dep?20:16
lifelessor we'd consider it plumbing and just dep on it, not trademark it?20:16
dhellmannmordred: how about if we make that the defcore committee, since we're already discussing these issues with that group?20:16
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mordredlifeless: I'd say one of us should personally nudge the user committee to get them to ask us to add it20:16
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mordreddhellmann: sure20:16
mordredI'm fine with anywhere20:16
mordredjust saying I think the world of projects asking for blessing is a fail20:16
sdaguelifeless: I do not believe there will be an OpenStack Quota Service (tm) certification effort20:16
lifelessmordred: I just want to be sure we don't setup a blockade to such improvements20:16
mordredlifeless: totally20:17
dhellmannmordred: and would we just always agree? or are there conditions under which we would not?20:17
lifelesssdague: one hopes ;)20:17
mordreddhellmann: no, I think we can TOTALLY say no20:17
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sdaguethis tag means nothing about anything except trademarks20:17
dtroyerI think saying know is where we add value to the whole process…20:17
sdagueit doesn't mean what's required in an installation20:17
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mordreddhellmann: I just think someone other than projects looking for validation needs to be the instigator20:17
mordredsdague: ++20:17
ttxsdague: doesn't even mean trademarks, since it's a superset20:17
lifelessso if its a superset20:17
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ttxit's just a safety net20:17
russellband it's also only commercial trademark programs, nothing to do with community use of the trademark20:17
lifelesswhere is the tag that is just trademarks?20:17
dhellmannmordred: do we want to list any details about those conditions, or just leave it up to the discretion of the tc at the time?20:17
ttxlifeless: not ours20:18
russellbttx: safety net is a good summary20:18
russellbsanity net20:18
zaneblifeless: that's the board's decision20:18
dhellmannlifeless: there's a whole repository for the defcore work20:18
lifelessI know20:18
lifelessjeez leading questions that get literal answers20:18
ttxthe tc-approved-release is a safety net so that defcore doesn't require something we would not consider part of openstack20:18
dhellmannlifeless: we have a responsibility under the new bylaws to produce this list. The other lists are someone else's job, so I didn't tackle them.20:19
mordreddhellmann: I honestly think we should cross the bridge when we get there20:19
ttxthe odds that that would happen at this point are pretty nil20:19
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ttxbut the safety net is still described in the bylwas20:19
mordreddhellmann: we have SO MUCH WORK to do before we run out of defcore-able capabilities that aren't in the thing yet20:19
sdaguemordred: yes, let's lazy evaluate here20:19
dhellmannmordred: I'm ok with some sort of vague "we'll think about it" statement, but I suppose jaypipes wouldn't be20:19
mordredthat we can flesh them out for a while before we get to a burning need to accept somethign new20:19
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mordreddhellmann: jaypipes loves those statements20:19
jogorussellb: that isn't correct, the bylaws don't distinguish between commercial and non-commercial now20:19
* mordred hands jaypipes a nice warm ham20:19
* jaypipes still struggling to read back... :*(20:20
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jogorussellb: but it is implied20:20
dhellmannI could even phrase it as "We don't know the criteria we would use, yet, so we'll have to figure out what to do at the time." or some such20:20
russellbjogo: yes it is, there's a very nice summary from jonathan in a ML post20:20
lifelessdhellmann: just punt entirely.20:20
dhellmannlifeless: what form would that take?20:20
lifelessdhellmann: 'this is the set of projects the board may choose to trademark, as decided by the TC.'20:20
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ttxlifeless: that is decent punting20:20
lifelesshow do things get added? ask the tc.20:21
dhellmannhere's my understanding of the current proposal: Only DefCore can ask that this tag be applied to a project. We will figure out what to do when they do that.20:21
lifelesshow do things get removed? ask the tc.20:21
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* jaypipes believes this particular conversation would be best held in person on Sunday...20:21
dhellmannwe have to work out processes and policies for removal with defcore, so that's already punted20:21
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lifelessdhellmann: thats setting a policy we havent had previously (because previously we decided what was integrated)20:21
zanebdhellmann: ++20:21
jaypipesvery difficult to follow the high speed interleaves.20:21
dhellmannlifeless: that is the policy in the bylaws20:21
russellbjaypipes: yeah.20:21
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flaper87jaypipes: ++20:21
ttxYep, and I don't think we'll finalize that discussion in meeting20:21
russellbjaypipes: i've kinda given up20:22
dhellmannsorry, jaypipes, I'm trying to reply to everyone20:22
ttxI'd like us to move to next topic20:22
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lifelessdhellmann: last I read it the TC decides on the integrated release20:22
* flaper87 will be a bit late on Sunday but there's dinner after, right? :D20:22
ttxwe can finalize next week20:22
lifelessdhellmann: unless you switched subject mid-stream.20:22
jaypipesdhellmann: no need to say sorry whatsoever :) I understand completely.20:22
mordredjaypipes: ++20:22
lifelessor is that object ? :)20:22
mordredlifeless: preposition20:22
dhellmannlifeless: I haven't ever been talking about the integrated release20:22
jaypipesspeaking of interleaving... let's ditch our threading model! ... discuss!20:22
* mordred interleaves jaypipes20:22
lifelessjaypipes: thats much more fun20:23
* dhellmann deadlocks20:23
lifelessdhellmann: ok, I think I need to review on the review.20:23
ttxOK, I suggest we keep the discussion open on that and move to next fun topic20:23
lifelessso we can move on20:23
* flaper87 kills all the threads and asks the scheduler (ttx) to switch20:23
jeblairthis meeting is kind of a bloodbath20:23
lifelesstrampoline time20:23
ttxalso aggressively timeboxed so that we get a feel before we discuss more directly next week20:23
ttx#topic Add compute kernel tag20:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Add compute kernel tag (Meeting topic: tc)"20:23
zanebttx: because the next topic is sure to go better ;)20:23
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/18011220:23
annegentleit's like a ladder or hill :)20:24
ttxOn this one there seems to be two areas of tension20:24
sdagueyeh, so... vibrant discussion20:24
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ttxFirst one is more around which use case the "kernel" should serve20:24
annegentlelevel up!20:24
ttxephemeral compute (keystone / nova / glance)20:24
ttxor non-ephemeral-compute (keystone / nova / glance / cinder / designate?)20:24
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ttxI don't have a strong opinion on it, but I think I'd prefer if we could have a single one20:24
ttxAlso it feels a bit weird to me to include Designate in the strongly-required set, given how few people actually implement it20:24
annegentleis anyone really advocating/testing no auth compute still?20:24
ttxI also like sdague's idea that "enhancements" replace function that already exists in the kernel with a more feature rich version20:24
jgriffithttx: +120:24
sdagueannegentle: no, plus I broke it last cycle probably20:25
annegentlesdague: nice20:25
zanebdoes no one think that if mordred and sdague can't even agree, then there's no way that one or two use cases can represent the whole community?20:25
ttxSecond area of tension is about the usefulness of the tag, but maybe we can come to that in a few20:25
jeblairdesignate is absolutely required for non-ephemeral compute20:25
ttxzaneb: the goal is not to represent the communitgy20:25
jgriffithjeblair: why?20:25
devanandazaneb: "represent the whole community" is not the point20:25
zanebthen maybe it should be20:25
sdaguejeblair: so... it's not in any way integrated to nova today from what I can tell20:26
jeblairjgriffith: because reverse dns is required to run production systems20:26
ttxthe goal is to describe a base set of projects to implement basic compute stuff20:26
devanandazaneb: the community HAS a lot of different use cases. theyre ALL valid. a single tag will never represent them all.20:26
sdagueI did go diving looking for code20:26
zanebwhy does it take the TC to officially designate that?20:26
russellbsdague: i thought it used nova notifications to do its thing20:26
russellbsdague: but it has been ages since i looked honestly ...20:26
sdaguerussellb: don't know, haven't ever seen it working20:26
jgriffithjeblair: by who's "requirements", and it doesn't have to be designate as many providers/implementors will atest20:26
zanebdevananda: I couldn't agree more20:26
ttxzaneb: it doesn't, but nobody proposed the tag, so sdague did20:26
russellbsdague: same here20:26
sdagueok, so can we discuss background, before we just go full pitchfork?20:27
devanandazaneb: "it's not everything to everyone" does not invalidate taking one measured step in the right direction20:27
zanebttx: so... because we can?20:27
* jgriffith puts his torch down20:27
jaypipessdague: please do proceed.20:27
flaper87sdague: go, background20:27
mordredjgriffith: I do not care about what non-openstack services people might want to run20:27
mordredmy job is to talk about what a complete openstack might look like20:27
sdagueone of the things that is really freaking our user community in the big tent is "where do I start?"20:27
mordredpeople can also run vmware instead of nova20:27
mordredbut that doesn't mean I'm not going to advocate taht we need nova20:27
sdagueI think it's good to have inclusiveness20:27
ttxmordred: let sdague talk please20:28
mordredoh. sorry.20:28
sdaguehowever, I do think we need a reasonable starting point that can be built upon, including adding enhancements of other projects over time20:28
ttxsdague: also it was about the only tag the Ops really wanted defined when we discussed tags at the Ops midcycle20:28
annegentlettx: that's good input20:29
sdaguethat seed corn helps all of the community get a piece of openstack up, and expand and include more of our ecosystem20:29
jaypipessdague: I entirely agree with you. I just happen to disagree that this particular tag definition adds that clarity of purpose.20:29
jgriffithsdague: so I completely agree with your statements thus far, and have had the same feedback from deployers20:29
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jgriffithsdague: but I agree with jaypipes on the naming of the tg20:29
sdaguejaypipes ok, so how would you expect to approach this?20:29
zanebsdague: "where do I start problem" is real. long-form full-sentence documentation is a better answer, because not everyone should start at the same point20:30
sdaguethis was the best idea I had so far20:30
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mordredI love sdague's tag20:30
mordredI just think it needs to be either smaller or two tags20:30
sdaguezaneb: I think as a community we do need to say "start here"20:30
anteayasdague: thank you for getting through the background on this20:30
dhellmanndoes our installation guide not already do that?20:30
sdagueand people can be different20:30
lifelessFWIW, I'm +1 on having such a tag. I think the name can be tweaked though (and I am happy to bikeshed that in the review)20:30
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flaper87or at the very least say: "most people start here"20:30
sdagueit's open source, you can always be different20:31
ttxdhellmann: apparently not clearly enough, since Ops asked for the base seed corn too.20:31
sdaguebut providing some base guidance gets more people rolling instead of staring at a blank wall20:31
ttxI was surprised to see such need coming from that experienced population, but it was there20:31
jgriffithI guess I'm trying to figure out how this is "different" than what we "used" to call core OpenStack20:31
dhellmannttx: is that a bug against the installation guide?20:31
zanebsdague: long-form full-sentence documentation is still a better answer, because it contains more than 1bit of information. people can use it to figure out where to go after the starting point20:31
jaypipessdague: an excellent question :) I've been pondering it most of the afternoon. I think I'd prefer to go down the route of having super-fine-grained tags for things like production maturity, deployability options, relation to other components, and then maybe have a "deploy:simple-compute" tag that is a "calculated tag" that looks at the existence of other fine-grained tags and groups things together.20:31
jgriffithI fully agree it's needed, valuable, important etc20:31
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russellbjgriffith: the old thing meant far more than an informative starting point20:32
sdaguejaypipes: ok, so they need to build a turning complete evaluation system?20:32
ttxdhellmann: I'd argue it's not a bug of the install guide, it's not meant to answer that question at all20:32
annegentlejaypipes: hm hadn't thought about calculated tags20:32
dhellmannjaypipes: I find it very interesting that you want to have subjective tags for things like "maturity" :-)20:32
sdaguebecause... that's not going to be confusing at all :)20:32
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jgriffithrussellb: understood, but that's kidna what people want20:32
dhellmannttx: fair20:32
jgriffithrussellb: and it doesn't mean we can 'redefine' it either20:32
jaypipessdague: no more than what dhellmann and jogo have already put together for the tags like diverse-affiliation20:32
zanebttx: question to ops was what tags to have, not best way to communicate a starting point. of course a tag was the answer20:33
annegentlehonestly this tag would help docs scope the install guides20:33
lifelessjaypipes: I was thinking minimal, not simple.20:33
lifelessjaypipes: because simple is a lie :)20:33
devanandaI disagre that long-form full-sentence docs are better-andtherefore-we-dont-need-simple20:33
jaypipesdhellmann: I don't want *us* to be that subjective body. I would prefer operators be the arbiter of maturity.20:33
sdaguelifeless: right, minimal20:33
devanandawhich is the implication folks seem to be presenting repeatedly20:33
jaypipeslifeless: ok, sure. :)20:33
devanandaI agree full docs are great and necessary20:33
dhellmannjaypipes: me, too! We should ask them to start a guide with this information somewhere else. :-)20:33
ttxzaneb: not really. Question was "do you want a base set of projects around compute defined"20:33
devanandabut folks are looking for a clear and simple signal of what they should go read the docs about20:33
jaypipesdhellmann: I think that is already underway :)20:33
sdagueright, the feedback has been long form docs do not fix this for people, they really do want minimal starting point20:33
dhellmannjaypipes: wonderful!20:33
annegentlesdague: right it's why devstack is oft-used20:34
lifelesscan we take a step up. We have a request from the operators and broader community to document a thing which is 'minimal starting point'.20:34
sdaguewhich I realize is not your pov zaneb, but it's the community feedback20:34
dtroyerso part of what we are trying to describe here are the technical relationships, such as to do x (say, minimal compute) you need these things20:34
lifelessWe should document this clearly, and there is no reason to document it just one way. E.g. docs + tags + $other?20:34
annegentleminimal compute projects I believe20:34
jaypipesdhellmann: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-operators/2015-May/006881.html20:34
lifelessdoes anyone *disagree* with those two lines ?^?20:34
annegentlemaybe also minimal storage but I wasn't in the session20:34
jaypipesdhellmann: and http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-operators/2015-May/006933.html20:34
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sdagueannegentle: honestly, the ops feedback is about a compute cloud20:35
annegentlesdague: yeah that was my hunch20:35
dhellmannjaypipes: cool, I saw reed's email but hadn't seen any follow up20:35
sdaguebecause swift is just swift, that's pretty clear, the batteries are all included20:35
zanebsdague: right, and I'm glad that people are looking out for the present. but I think we also need to really look out for the future20:35
annegentlesdague: I do think storage is a great entry point20:35
ttxok, 5 more minutes20:35
flaper87sdague: were there OPs not running a compute cloud present? (out of curiosity)20:35
fungi"to do x you need y" is not something you can effectively tag if there are z ways to do x where z>120:36
flaper87(or did we get feedback from them?)20:36
sdagueflaper87: in phili, I don't think so20:36
flaper87sdague: thnx20:36
ttxI want to quickly come back to the "ephemeral or persistent" question20:36
lifelessfungi: but thats not the request. The request is 'whats the onramp'20:36
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devanandalifeless: more than just "more than one way" the impression I have is that the community explicitly wants a signal and they want comprehesive docs. these are complementary, not duplicative.20:36
lifelessfungi: we can objectively describe that: its the minimum set, and where there are N candidates, the candidates most commonly used by peers.20:36
ttxI plan to go back to the same ops group and ask them which makes the most sense. I bet they will pick the most minimal set20:36
fungilifeless: i was responding to dtroyer's characterization of the problem20:37
lifelessdevananda: yes.20:37
dhellmannhow about if we rename this tag use-case:compute-something-something and not "kernel" or "base" or whatever?20:37
devanandattx: I'd vote for minimal set right now, with something like sdague 's verbiage around "enhancements" for DNS, etc20:37
jeblairttx: i think that sounds like a good way forward.  make sure we understand the request clearly and then satisfy it.20:37
lifelessyeah, thats why I want to bikeshed on the name20:37
dhellmannbecause if we're really just talking about use cases, then we'll have lots of those in parallel20:37
devanandattx: and then do the same for a storage cloud + enhancements, and so on20:37
sdaguesure, the name isn't important to me20:37
jeblairttx: because i think we're doing this for the ops.20:37
devanandadhellmann: indeed20:37
ttxdhellmann: to me a kernel:foo is a use-case:mininam-foo20:37
sdagueI think the concept of "start here"20:37
jeblairttx: (and indirectly for the users)20:37
annegentlefor ops!20:37
sdagueand then clear paths to upgrade features as you go in that live env20:38
jaypipesinstead of "kernel:compute", how about something like "use-case:ephemeral-compute" or "use-case:test-and-development" or "use-case:enterprise-it"?20:38
lifelessttx: kernel to me implies always-present, and consider nova-network -> neutron, its not.20:38
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lifelessttx: but thats perhaps just me20:38
edleafeit's like we're writing a thesaurus entry for 'core'20:38
mordrededleafe: ++20:38
devanandajaypipes: what is "enterprise-it"? :)20:38
flaper87can we have more than a starting point? "For a compute based cloud start here"20:38
jaypipesdevananda: heh, touche.20:38
russellbdevananda: pets20:38
sdaguejaypipes: and what if you are an org that has 2 of those needs20:38
dhellmanndevananda: "to enterprise" is "to make excessively complex"20:38
jgriffithedleafe: :)20:39
zanebedleafe: bingo20:39
fungiseems like much of the objection is that these tags will be opinionated and subjective. but that really sounds like the request: "tell us what you want us to install"20:39
lifelessok, you broke me. kernel:pets has my +1.20:39
jaypipessdague: then you use the projects that are the union of both tags.20:39
ttxOK, we need to move on. Let's continue that discussion next week and the next meeting too20:39
Rockyghow about a tutorial for a specific,, three node (ops talks a lot about that) compute cloud?20:39
dtroyerfungi: which is why I want to describe things that are technical requirements + options, and not try to solve use cases20:39
annegentlerussellb: we do that20:39
sdaguejaypipes: well, I don't think that solves the problem. If you want to run with that approach, so be it20:39
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zanebhow many tags are we up to now?20:39
annegentleRockyg: the Install guides have three basic architectures20:40
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russellbzaneb: http://governance.openstack.org/reference/tags/20:40
jaypipeszaneb: http://governance.openstack.org/reference/tags/20:40
ttxFeel free to engage on the review20:40
jaypipesgah, russellb20:40
zanebwhy not have experienced operators tell us where new operators should start, instead of the TC telling them?20:40
* jaypipes shakes fist20:40
Rockygannegentle: but a tutorial format?  The ops guys want a useful "my first cloud" to test20:40
sdaguezaneb: right, which would basically be this list20:40
dhellmannzaneb: see the 2 email threads jaypipes linked earlier20:40
zanebrussellb: I meant proposed in this meeting20:40
anteayaops people perhaps?20:40
sdagueit's consolidated down from that feedback20:40
ttxPlease -- let's switch to next topic20:40
ttxWe con't finish this one today20:41
ttx#topic Workgroup reports20:41
*** openstack changes topic to "Workgroup reports (Meeting topic: tc)"20:41
ttx* Communications workgroup20:41
ttxannegentle, flaper87: how is that going?20:41
annegentlettx: I've put together a draft comm plan20:41
annegentle#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/TC-communications-plan20:42
annegentlesome points to discuss:20:42
flaper87I think we got a fair feedback from the thread sent to os-dev, at least to help us get started20:42
annegentleI need to get with reed to see how to schedule this with the current Community newsletter that goes out Friday20:43
annegentleAlso, I'm not wanting to maintain a separate twitter account for the tc20:43
ttxannegentle: ok, so still work in progress20:43
annegentlesounds like we agree on that20:43
lifelessannegentle: agreed, use own twitter handles20:43
lifelessfolk can follow the new tc each cycle, if they care.20:43
flaper87yeah, I think we can leave that one off20:43
ttxannegentle: anything you need urgent input on?20:43
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annegentleI think the judgement call will be on the cadence of messaging.20:44
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annegentleI think we've got this, next is implementation. I'd like to write a summary blog post this week and get the tags right.20:44
annegentlejust wanted to vet the plan here20:44
dhellmannI thought we already said we would end each meeting with a discussion of what might need to be published?20:44
annegentledhellmann: sounds good20:44
ttxdhellmann: ok, let's try that today20:45
flaper87dhellmann: I thought that was more a communication-team thing but it sounds good to me20:45
russellbwe had a previous attempt at the blog posts, what can we do differently to ensure it keeps up this time?20:45
ttxLet's speed through the remaining topics then20:45
annegentle(by get the tags right I mean Wordpress tags that go to planet.openstack)20:45
annegentlerussellb: I think it's that flaper87 and I are accountable for a go-no go call on blog post this week?20:45
flaper87annegentle: ++20:45
russellbannegentle: OK, so more clear ownership, makes sense20:45
annegentlenow that I don't have to write What's Up Doc weekly I feel I can keep up.20:45
ttx* Project Team Guide workgroup20:46
ttxWe've started putting together an outline of what we should cover20:46
ttx#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/project-team-guide20:46
ttxI think this is pretty solid and shall make an interesting read20:46
ttxOnce the outline is ok we shall discuss how to make it happen20:46
ttxI'm tempted to try a two-day online sprint20:46
flaper87ttx: can we try something at the summit? Friday?20:47
jeblairttx: we wrote a big chunk of infra-manual that way with considerable success20:47
flaper87not sure if it'll work with other folks schedules20:47
ttxflaper87: I already work on fixing the world Friday20:47
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* flaper87 will try to fix the universe20:47
fungivirtual sprint worked fine for infra-manual20:48
* jeblair subscribes to both newsletters20:48
ttxAnyway, the outline needs to mature a bit, no uregnt input needed at this point20:48
dhellmannyeah, I'm already over booked next week so let's try this online20:48
ttx#topic Other potential workgroups20:48
*** openstack changes topic to "Other potential workgroups (Meeting topic: tc)"20:48
* flaper87 really wants it to be called: "Project's welcome package"20:48
ttxI had a few extra areas to suggest we work on (or improve on)20:48
ttxThe first is how we handle cross-project specs and the cross-project meeting20:48
lifelessI know jaypipes and I are both interested in that :)20:48
ttxWe introduced cross-project specs (and the new format for the cross-project meeting) last cycle20:48
Rockyglifeless: ++100020:48
ttxI wouldn't describe the result as a clear success. The specs don't get a lot of attention, and the meeting is pretty desert20:49
ttxI'd welcome a workgroup to suggest improvements on that front20:49
ttxI'd also like to more aggressively rotate chairs on the cross-project meeting...20:49
ttxWhen we started we said we would rotate but I ended up doing 82% of them and dhellmann the remaining 18%20:49
ttxAnyone interested in working on that ?20:50
dhellmannI should have time to take on more of them, this cycle, if we decide we're going to keep having them.20:50
ttxI would put openstack/requirements in the same bag/workgroup, but since we might change what those mean pretty soon, probably better to wait for that20:50
ttxlifeless: Architecture... what would that workgroup do exactly ?20:51
lifelessI don't think the ownership will change20:51
lifelessttx: rant and rave about the terrible things that cause us problems?20:51
ttxlifeless: sounds like fun! ++20:51
anteayaI thought that group met regularly20:51
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sdaguelifeless: you have to be on a committee to do that?20:51
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lifelessttx: or more usefully, identify such things and work with projects to get fixing them prioritised, and help them get resources to do it20:51
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lifelesssdague: I don't know.20:52
zaneblifeless: ++20:52
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lifelesssdague: workgroup to me isn't a committe per se, its interested folk working together?20:52
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lifelesssdague: I'm pushing on this already myself, - it is in part why I'm down in the plumbing of pip atm20:52
ttxyes, by workgroup I mostly mean a defined group of interested people that can own a problem space20:52
jaypipeslifeless: agreed. the trick is to ensure that the group is productive...20:52
lifelessjaypipes: perhaps we should have alcohol in vancouver and come up with a plan.20:53
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ttxwhich brings me to the last point I wanted to make20:53
jaypipeslifeless: sounds good to me.20:53
ttx3rd-party participation to TC workgroups20:53
edleafelifeless: ++20:53
ttxI don't think there is anything we will do in those workgroups that prevents non-TC-members from participating20:53
russellbi suppose we could have short term workgroups for key project issues ... like tracking/helping with the nova-network/neutron situation20:53
ttxOnly TC members will ultimately vote, but non-members can still work in the workgroup to prepare the decisions20:53
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jeblairttx: agreed20:53
ttxThinking in terms of succession planning, that could be a nice stepping stone for future candidates20:53
annegentlewe've seen good collab in the API working group20:53
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jaypipesttx: I personally feel the API WG has been extremely successful in both gathering 3rd party feedback as well as being productive in putting out guidance documentation.20:53
annegentlejaypipes: yep20:54
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russellbttx: i like that thinking20:54
jaypipesttx: I don't necessarily see working groups as a TC-dominated or controlled thing.20:54
jaypipesttx: more that we should ensure that TC members are active participants in working groups.20:54
edleafejaypipes: more like TC-initiated20:54
sdagueedleafe: ++20:54
jaypipesedleafe: doesn't need to be, but sure :)20:55
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jeblairjaypipes: well, the thing under discussion is working groups of the TC20:55
jeblairso, i think by definition, yes20:55
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ttxRight, so let's make it clear those are not TC subteams, just work groups that happen to be spawned by TC members20:55
flaper87ttx: ++20:56
sdaguejeblair: so, api-wg just grew up out of need, some TC members involved, but not a TC umbrella thing20:56
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sdagueI kind of thing that's more successful model long term. We're only 13 people.20:56
sdagueThe community is large and lots of super smart people in it20:56
lifelessjaypipes: ttx: edleafe: +1 on all that20:56
ttxright, we seed those20:56
ttx#topic Open discussion20:56
lifelessright, WG's, not SC'.20:56
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:56
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russellbthoughts on making neutron/nova-network a workgroup?  i think that's something important we should be checking in on regularly.20:56
ttxTwo things to cover before we end20:56
ttxDid you think of topics we could discuss at the joint Board/TC meeting ?20:57
lifelessrussellb: looks to me like nova and neutron have their stuff together on it20:57
sdaguerussellb: we should see if we still have livers left after vancouver :)20:57
ttxIn particular, anything we struggle with on the upstream side that the Board could help us solve ?20:57
jaypipesttx: none that I can say on a public IRC channel.20:57
lifelessjaypipes: !lol20:57
devanandattx: tags?20:57
ttxdevananda: you mean tags the board would find useful ?20:57
ttxor present the current status of tags ?20:57
flaper87ttx: and the trademark thing too20:57
annegentletags ++20:57
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devanandattx: yea. though I'm not sure we have any yet20:58
jaypipesttx: here's one topic: "What is the board actually doing to enforce the contribution requirement of Platinum members?"20:58
annegentlewhere's last time's topics?20:58
ttxflaper87: both are already on my list20:58
sdagueso, have we all just given up on dropping the CLA?20:58
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russellbjaypipes: nice one20:58
flaper87ttx: awesome20:58
russellbsdague: ++20:58
dhellmannsdague: ++20:58
ttx#info TC+BoD topic: "What is the board actually doing to enforce the contribution requirement of Platinum members?"20:58
annegentlewe should probably ask the Board what they need from our comm plan20:58
sdaguejaypipes: I'm glad someone brought it up, I think that would be a good conversation20:58
jeblairsdague: ++20:58
ttx#info TC+BoD topic "have we all just given up on dropping the CLA?"20:58
fungii was just about to ask20:59
jeblairto make that a bit clearer, i assume that we have not.  i assume that the board has been working in good faith on that.20:59
ttxAnd now we have 2 minutes to r aise points that should definitely appear in the TC comm20:59
mordredjeblair: ++20:59
sdaguejeblair: ok, the last email thread on legal-discuss did not seem to indicate that20:59
lifelessis there a meet-the-TC thing in vancouver?20:59
lifelesswe should advertise that in TC comms IMO21:00
ttxlifeless: no21:00
russellbthank goodness :)21:00
mordredpeople are bored with us21:00
russellblunch with the TC/board was useless21:00
ttxlifeless: we opted out the "Lunch with Board" thing21:00
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lifelessnot the lunch, I remember a session in hong kong21:00
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mordredyeah - no session such as that21:00
lifelessjust mics at front of a room21:00
lifelessanyhoo, no is fine.21:00
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jeblairsdague: yeah, realize i may be disappointed.  but my own inaction is not because i have given up, but rather am assuming good faith.21:01
annegentleMy idea for this week's post would be to summarize the comm plan, point people to tag discussions, indicate the governance change that happened last week about agenda item timing...21:01
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ttxOK, last minute things-that-need-to-appear-in-anne's-post ?21:01
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ttxannegentle: you can mention the project guide in prep21:01
annegentlettx: yes21:01
dhellmannannegentle: ++21:01
ttxok, time to wrap up21:01
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ttxI'll be seeing you all in a few days21:02
dhellmannsee you all sunday!21:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 12 21:02:16 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-05-12-20.03.html21:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-05-12-20.03.txt21:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-05-12-20.03.log.html21:02
jeblairttx: thanks for some deft chair work today :)21:02
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ttxAlright, now is time for the awesome cross-project meeting21:02
ttxcourtesy PTL ping: devananda, dims, morganfainberg, notmyname, gordc, nikhil_k, thingee, stevebaker, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov, johnthetubaguy: around ?21:02
devanandattx: \o21:02
annegentlenice work timeboxing ttx :)21:03
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* SergeyLukjanov now in PDT time zone and happy to have this meeting at a day time :)21:03
mordredSergeyLukjanov: ++21:03
ttxannegentle: I counted 6 parallel discussions at some point21:03
ttx#startmeeting crossproject21:03
openstackMeeting started Tue May 12 21:03:30 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
edleafettx: :)21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:03
ttxSergeyLukjanov: WAT21:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'crossproject'21:03
ttxSergeyLukjanov: I hope that's temporary21:03
ttxToday's agenda:21:03
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ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting21:04
SergeyLukjanovttx, yeah, I'll back to UTC+3 in early June21:04
* ttx likes to overlap with Sergey21:04
ttx(nothing dirty)21:04
ttx#topic Design Summit last-minute checks (ttx)21:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Design Summit last-minute checks (ttx) (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:04
* ttx checks if we have Magnum track content up21:04
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dhellmanndims, Rockyg: did we sort out the conflicts in the various logging sessions?21:05
ttxRight, so at this hour we are only missing the Magnum track contents21:05
devanandaironic content isn't up yet. was on my agenda to publish last night, but didn't get to it yet21:05
ttxsdake is working on it21:05
Rockygnot sure...21:05
dimsdhellmann: y i believe so21:05
dhellmanndims: cool, thanks21:05
RockygThanks, dims21:05
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ttxdevananda: Ironic seems to have titles up and all21:05
ttxSo... The production crew has been asking me to freeze the content soon, so that they can start preparing the digital signage21:05
ttxWe can still push changes up to the same day, but we'll need to let them know21:06
ttxTo this effect, I plan to disable Cheddar at the end of the day Wednesday21:06
devanandattx: gimme 10 min and I'l lhave it updated21:06
johnthetubaguyttx: how do we let them know?21:06
ttxjohnthetubaguy: you don't, you go through me for the changes and I notify them21:06
ttxSo we should work on the last-minute changes today or tomorrow21:06
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johnthetubaguyttx: cool, sounds good21:07
ttxand after that you can send me email and I'll make manual changes and notify the production crew21:07
ttxIs there any last-minute conflict we should work on solving ?21:07
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ttxI think I heard someone mentioning one in some channel21:08
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ttxbauzas, ajo: ?21:08
bauzasaloha ?21:08
bauzasoh, related to the gantt meeting ?21:09
ttxbauzas: you mentioned a conflict earlier today on this channel21:09
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ttxis that unrelated to the design summit ?21:09
bauzasyeah, there is a neutron qos session happening at the same time than a nova session making me unable to attend both21:09
ttxbauzas: link ? maybe we can get some arrangement21:10
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ttxbauzas: FTR there are Nova sessions in every time slot, so...21:10
bauzasttx: well, I was not hoping any solution :)21:10
bauzasttx: yup, that's the point21:10
ttxbauzas: I'm fine with no solution21:10
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johnthetubaguysadly those scheduler ones have a particular order21:11
ttxAlso apparently we have a problem with the addition of extra tracks ("Also appears in...")21:11
bauzasttx: I mean, I don't want to change anything since it could create a conflict too21:11
ttxWe do the right Sched API call but sometimes it just doesn't stick21:11
ttxI blame the cloud21:11
ttxSo if you have sessions you would like to make appear in other tracks, let me know and I'll add those directly in Sched21:11
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bauzasjohnthetubaguy: well, the problem is on Thurs for the flavor and image session in Nova21:11
bauzasttx: thanks for the proposal, but we can leave the sessions as they are21:12
johnthetubaguybauzas: that would cover qos, too I guess, but yeah, tricky21:12
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ttxjohnthetubaguy: also moving things around at this point kind of breaks people that already selected sessions21:12
bauzasttx: johnthetubaguy: we will probably provide a BoF for anyone wanting to discuss on x-project scheduling21:12
johnthetubaguyttx: yeah, +121:13
ttxbauzas: ack21:13
ttxLast thing, you should bootstrap the etherpads for your sessions and list them at:21:13
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Liberty/Etherpads21:13
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bauzasttx: that's my point, I don't want to break anything just for me21:13
ttxThat lets people start putting things to discuss while their minds are still clear21:13
ttxAnd win precious time next week21:13
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ttxQuestions on that ?21:13
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ttx#info Cheddar will be brought down and Design Summit schedule soft-frozen at EOD Wednesday, push your last changes in before then21:14
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ttxAlright, if there are no questions and no conflicts to solve, I guess we are good to go21:15
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ttx#topic Product Work Group Pre-Summit Roadmap Review (Shamail Tahir, Mike Cohen, Carl Barrett)21:15
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ttxShamail: barrett: around?21:15
ShamailGood afternoon, thanks for giving us a moment of your time again this week.  We greatly appreciate it.21:15
barrettHi - Carol here21:15
Shamailhi ttx21:15
Shamailhi geoffarnold21:15
Shamailand ofc barrett21:16
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ShamailThe Product WG has two breakout sessions planned for the upcoming OpenStack conference in Vancouver and we plan to share the aggregated PTL feedback received so far in a session called "What's Next in OpenStack? A Glimpse at The Roadmap" (the team will definitely make it known that the active word in the title is glimpse).21:16
Shamail#link http://openstacksummitmay2015vancouver.sched.org/event/59009be478783e619d3f949b6e6e3b5521:16
ShamailThe reason we wanted some time on your agenda today is to show you a preview of the "roadmap" section of our presentation to ensure that the cross project team (including the PTLs) has a chance to provide us feedback prior to this content reaching a broader audience.21:16
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ShamailHere is a draft version of only the "roadmap" slides for our session on Monday, the actual deck will also set some context about the group.21:17
Shamail#link https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ecgIygeGb5RJT4ASjyDTSV_TGKc2d-8YjFc3D2KhcSg21:17
* ttx reads21:17
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ShamailFirst and foremost, we kept the actual PTL feedback (verbatim) in our etherpad and the link is provided at the end.  We do, however, believe that providing the session attendees with a summary of the actual feedback may be the most impactful of delivering the content.21:17
ShamailOur eventual goal is to serve both the user and developer communities (this may require maintaining two roadmaps) but we believe that our primary audience for this particular session will be users/operators and therefore we choose to prioritize the inclusion of changes that will be of more direct impact to people in these roles.  We leveraged the PTL feedback and established "top 3" priorities for each projec21:17
Shamailt either based on the PTL stating that something was a priority or because it was a "big rock" that required a significant portion of the project team to achieve.21:17
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ShamailWe also broke down the summary into three views with varying levels of details: 30K foot, 10K foot, and 30 foot.21:18
ShamailThe 30K foot view focuses more on showing which themes are targeted by the various projects (again based on priority/summarized feedback) and this view can also be used to see which release has more focus on a desired theme for the user/operator.21:18
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ShamailThe 10K foot view summarizes how each release/project aligns with the themes (e.g. allows a user to see all the changes across a release instead of theme or project).21:18
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ShamailThe 30 foot view provides a per project summary of all changes in a project across releases (no theme-based view).21:18
ShamailThe ASK:  Can you please review the proposed roadmap slides and give us feedback.21:18
ShamailCarol (Barrett), do you want to add anything?21:19
johnthetubaguyShamail: do you want feedback in comments in the doc?21:19
ShamailThat would be ideal, can you also specify your project affliation?21:19
Shamailin the doc, when leaving the comment21:19
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barrettA couple of things, I'd like to add. 1st a comment on roadmaps: The roadmap that we are using in Vancouver session is a readout of PTL feedback. The Board has asked us to work towards a multi-release roadmap (along with work flow and process) before Tokyo.  This glimpse roadmap is a starting point, but the final roadmap will be different.21:20
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johnthetubaguybarrett: we don't really agree the liberty priorities till the end of the summit21:21
johnthetubaguynot sure how that fits with the presentation21:21
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* jogo notes PTL's do not decide what gets done21:21
etoewsShamail: when you say "user and developer communities" what exactly to do mean? user==ops & developer==openstack contributor?21:21
barrettunderstand - we'll update the roadmap after the design summit is complete21:21
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Shamailetoews: yes, example would be that OpenStack contributors might want to know about the availability of a certain API or library... It may not be relevant to the user/ops.21:22
Shamailboth might have their own desired value from the document21:22
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bknudsonif we made a roadmap 6 months ago for keystone I don't think it would match what got done.21:22
Shamailjohnthetubaguy: The concept is to present what are items on the teams mind (we chose the PTL since they are in touch with the core and community)21:22
barrettjogo: out goal is to work with the PTLs and developer community to gain alignment on priorities so we can all collectively have targets for each release.21:23
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Shamailwe are not saying that this is a done deal since everything is driven by project agreement during the release cycle.   It's giving users an idea of what might be the next area a team wants to address (not will address)21:23
johnthetubaguyso we are doing lots of alignment during the design summit21:23
etoewsShamail: there are more audiences for the product working group than that. 1 sec. lemme dig something up.21:23
jogobarrett: right, but doing that through the PTLs as the middle man for that doesn't really work IMHO21:23
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barrettbknudson: And that's OK. The roadmap shows directionally where we are heading, it will be dynamic and change. No problem21:24
Shamailetoews: agreed, I really like Tim Bell's message to the user committee.21:24
johnthetubaguyNow I do like the idea of this approach, but I need to collect thoughts from all the devs first21:24
ttxjogo: one other issue is that the data comes from the previous cycle PTL21:24
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barrettjogo: we're not trying to make the PTLs the middle man. We're trying to work with the PTLs, User Committee, other Community work groups to bring this about21:24
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Shamailjohnthetubaguy: +1 and we also would like to collect feedback on the process and finding a balance between what's comfortable and needed.21:25
jogobarrett: I assume you are working with the companies that pay the vast majority o developers ?21:25
barrettShamail +121:25
barrettJogo +121:25
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RockygFirst round of this will likely be really off, but we will circle back and see what works and what doesn't each round.  It should get better over time21:25
jogoShamail: as a list of useful things to work on this sounds nice21:25
ShamailWe wanted to share this content since we want to show it during the summit almost as a "preview" to the actual multi-release roadmap.  As we embark on that journey, cross project and project teams will be front and center in helping us shape how we should build/deliver the information.21:26
johnthetubaguyI see stating we are doing this is the first thing, and thats great21:26
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ShamailWe also need to figure out how to close the feedback loop and work on development help for use-cases, but that's a topic for another day. :)21:26
barrettCan we get your comments on the roadmap by end of Thursday?21:26
dhellmannShamail: we have a bunch of tools in place for tracking blueprints already, are you looking at those?21:27
johnthetubaguyyep, I can try add mine by then21:27
RockygYup.  First round, collect the data and the thoughts on how the future will go, then start adjusting based on accumulated data and practice21:27
etoewsShamail: yep. and you might want to include a slide early on in your deck delineating the different audiences. "user and developer" mean different things depending on your perspective in openstack-land21:27
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ttxAlso the same group will work on consolidating needs and wishlists from various SIGs, so that would be another data point21:27
ShamailWe have a lot of work to do before Tokyo on how to obtain common feedback, workflow, alignment with cross project, feedback loop, how to help with developers to work on use-cases, etc.  The roadmap presented today is just a glimpse and not our actual deliverable.21:27
etoewsShamail: i did this a couple of summit ago http://image.slidesharecdn.com/yousirsirvey-140519093410-phpapp01/95/you-sir-sir-vey-12-638.jpg?cb=140049238321:27
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Shamailetoews: +1, good feedback21:27
barrettjohnthetubaguy: thanks21:27
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ttxand a good way to check that the two are not completely orthogonal21:27
Shamailetoews: I will "borrow" that21:27
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Rockygdhellmann: do you have a pointer to those tools?21:28
ShamailWe have two sessions at the summit21:28
Shamailthe first session will focus on the content shown today21:28
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dhellmannttx: I can't find my bookmark to the page that shows in progress blueprints, do you have that handy?21:28
Shamailthe second session will focus on the group itself (charter, goal, workflow, next steps, etc)21:28
barrettFor the Glimpse session, we think it would be very helpful  if a couple of PTLs could be there to help field questions. It is on Monday at 11:15 in room 110.21:28
ttxdhellmann: that would be the release status page21:28
ttxdhellmann: still stuck on Kilo though21:28
dhellmannRockyg: launchpad, for one: https://launchpad.net/oslo21:28
dhellmannttx: right, that's the link I can never remember where it :-)21:28
barrettThe Cross Project work session is scheduled for Monday from 3:40 – 4:40 in room 212. We’re going to focus on defining how we work together and process flow. Would be valuable to have some folks from this group join that session too.21:29
loquacitiesi can probably make it, for docs21:29
ttxdhellmann: one of the Liberty ideas is to stop predicting and just counting the points after the battle^Wmilestone is over21:29
Shamaildhellmann: yes, I did look at those... it would be great to figure out how to streamline parsing.  The challenge is that we have the data (since everything is BP or spec) but parsing without project background makes it very hard.21:29
barrettloquacities: thanks21:29
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ShamailWhats user, whats internal, why was something done, etc21:29
jogottx: sounds like this group will do the predicting for now on21:29
dhellmannShamail: yep, there's a lot going on21:29
barrettdhellmann ++21:30
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ttxjogo: well, I'm happy to abandon it to them. People were expecting exact data from me and we just can't provide that, so better not provide it at all21:30
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ttxAt least predictions will look like predictions21:30
dhellmannttx: ++21:31
ttxnot as commitments21:31
Rockygttx:  ++21:31
Shamailttx: ++21:31
fungi"criswell predicts openstack"21:31
barrettttx ++21:31
ShamailWe jokingly added a disclaimer but, in reality, it is needed to build a buffer.21:31
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ttxAlso I see a lot of potential with comparing the priorty lists as expressed by the various SIGs21:31
barrettttx ++21:32
ttxwith the 10Kfeet goals as expressed by the PTLs/Devs21:32
ttxand check that the two are not completely orthogonal21:32
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ttxand raise a flag if they are21:32
Shamailttx: that would be great, it would help us by acting more as messengers than having to inject opinion through paraphrasing21:32
johnthetubaguythe SIG priorities are a great input to picking design summit sessions21:32
Rockygit may also be useful to identify where specs are needed to achieve a priority21:32
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barrettRockyg +121:33
ttxShamail: i nthe future we may want to discuss timing21:33
johnthetubaguyRockyg: do you mean this, in the Nova sense? http://docs.openstack.org/developer/nova/devref/kilo.blueprints.html#when-is-a-blueprint-needed21:33
ttxideally we need as much priority input as possible pre-summit, to help with the selection of design summit sessions21:33
ShamailShameless Plug: Please join the cross project meeting for the Product WG.. This conversation IRL would be great.21:33
barrettttx: we're hoping to do that at the cross project session.21:33
johnthetubaguywe have "backlog" specs that no one has used yet, that could be useful to capture some ideas21:34
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Shamaillink to any samples?21:34
Shamailsorry, that was for johnthetubaguy21:34
barrettjonthetubaguy: were do we find those?21:34
Rockygjohnthetubaguy: more like "it's a priority, but nobody has done anything to define it yet"21:34
ttxbarrett: I'd argue it's too late to influence the design summit topic selection. May influence the discussions, but not really more21:34
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barrettttx: Agree, we've done what we could ahead of the design summit to influence Liberty.21:35
Rockygttx:  this time, yes.21:35
ttxbarrett: for example the consolidated SIG priority list is useful input one month before summit, not one day before summit21:35
johnthetubaguyShamail: we don't have any sample backlog ones yet, working with the ops folks to make add some this time21:35
ShamailWe will definitely want to have further discussions in Vancouver and beyond.... We also appreciate any feedback on this specific content since it's for a breakout session that happens on Monday. :)21:35
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johnthetubaguyShamail: other projects might have some21:35
ttxright, not blaiming the timing for this time, just food for thoughts next time21:35
Shamailthanks johnthetubaguy, i'll keep an eye out for them.  I think they would be a useful tool.21:35
barrettttx: agree. I think we should try to publish is as soon after a release is made as possible21:35
Shamailttx: thanks.21:35
johnthetubaguyttx: +1 on the ideas for next time21:35
johnthetubaguyalso, no we know this is a thing, we can talk about it21:35
johnthetubaguyso we have a better idea what will go in those slots next time21:36
Rockygttx: always hardest to get the ball moving.  Static friction versus dynamic :-)21:36
ttxAlright, anything else on that topic ?21:36
Shamailttx: point about PTL changes are valid, we even have to figure out when we should ask for feedback in a release cycle since the dust doesn't start settling until *-milestone 221:36
ttxWe don't have another topic to discuss so we can continue a bit on this one21:36
barrettOne thing we'll need help figuring out, is how we prioritize the inputs. This will be a topic at the cross project session.21:36
Shamailttx: Please provide feedback by Thursday if at all possible.  That's all from me. :]  Thanks again for your time.21:36
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RockygShamail:  we can look at the specs and bps for milestone 1 and see if the priorities are targetted...21:37
jogottx:  I am not sure having the list of SIG (I assume that means employers) priorities would help. As the good ones will have already introduced the ideas to the community as needed21:37
ttxbarrett: the work group session on Monday is at the same time as my talk, so I'll have to skip, unfortunately21:37
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barrettRockyg: Let's discuss in our work session earlier on Monday21:37
johnthetubaguybarrett: I would be fine with a big list of input, without priorities, rather than nothing like now21:37
ttxjogo: SIG = TelcoWG, Win the Enterprise and other special interest lobbying groups in openstack21:37
jogoI see more value in different SIGs alligning on efforts21:37
ShamailRockyg: +1, we will need consistency in when we start aggregating (let's bring it up on WG session)21:37
barrettttx: bummer...maybe catch-up sometime during the Summit or week after to discuss?21:38
ttxjogo: so not necessarily employers (unfortunately)21:38
jogottx: ohhhh, that is even worse .... requests for things without anyone to do it21:38
ttxjogo: right, that's why it's just an input.21:38
* jogo notes how badly special interest groups impact the US Govt.21:38
barrettjohnthetubaguy: We can definitlely do a long list. But I think the priorities are going to be helpful, since many things will be cross project21:38
ttxjogo: and why I expect a bit of a lack in alignment with devs priorities21:39
johnthetubaguybarrett: totally21:39
johnthetubaguybarrett: but a flat list is a step forward already21:39
Rockygjohnthetubaguy: ++21:39
ShamailSee all of you in Vancouver hopefully21:40
ttxbarrett: oh wait, when is the working group session ?21:40
ttxI may be confused21:40
ShamailOur Product WG cross project session is Monday 05/18 3:40 PM  - 4:40 PM21:40
barrettttx: there's a team working session on Monday from 2:00 - 3:3021:40
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ttxah no, not confused21:40
jogottx: yeah this should be interesting, esp. since dev priorities come from devs+ the people why pay them already21:41
barrettFollowed by a cross project working session from 3:40 - 4:4021:41
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barrettShamail: Think your times are off21:41
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barrettThanks folks - see you in BC!21:42
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Shamailbarrett: I will defer to you.  We talked about my amazing organization skills for summit chedule21:42
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barrettshamail: LOL21:42
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etoewsif you're discussing a session, please just share a link to that session to avoid ambiguity. :)21:43
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ttx#topic Open discussion & announcements21:44
barrett#link: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Product_Work_Group_Vancouver_Work_Session21:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion & announcements (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:44
ttxAnything else, anyone ?21:44
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barrett#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ProductWG_xProjectSession21:44
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bknudsonnext tuesday is cross-project tuesday21:46
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ttxyep, no meeting enxt week obviously21:48
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ttxAlright, if nothing else, let's close this21:48
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:48
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 12 21:48:25 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:48
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-05-12-21.03.html21:48
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-05-12-21.03.txt21:48
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-05-12-21.03.log.html21:48
ttxThanks everyone!21:48
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loquacitiesthanks ttx :)21:49
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