Tuesday, 2015-07-07

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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  7 08:01:34 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:01
lennybanteaya: hi08:01
anteayahey lennyb08:02
anteayalennyb: how are things with you?08:02
lennybanteaya: I dont anything special to discuss today. I am fine, thanks, my CI too.08:02
anteayalennyb: what is the status of your CI?08:03
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lennybcurrently we are commenting+voting on Neutron, and commenting as non-voting on Nova. Cinder is in silent mode08:04
lennybbut I will move Cinder to commenting voting08:04
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anteayawhat is the name of your ci again?08:05
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* lennyb 1min, we have some issues with networking or web browser08:06
anteayaMellanox CI is it not?08:07
lennybfor Nova and Neutron.08:08
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anteaya#link http://ec2-54-67-102-119.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com:5000/?project=openstack%2Fneutron&user=&timeframe=24&start=&end=&page_size=08:08
anteaya#link http://jogo.github.io/lastcomment/08:09
anteayawell your CI shows up in both08:09
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anteayacan you see it08:09
* lennyb wait, network issues.08:09
* lennyb struggling with browser08:11
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anteayawell I just wanted you to be aware of these two tools08:12
lennybanteaya: yeap, I see it.  We have a quite stable CI now, thanks for the tools, I wasnt aware about jogo's.08:13
anteayahe just put it up over the weekend it looks like08:13
anteayaglad you have a stable CI now08:13
anteayagood work08:14
anteayawanted to remind you of the common-ci solution sprint this week08:14
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lennybyeah, very impressive and useful. I will probably add it to my monitoring scripts. I know about sprint.08:15
anteaya#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints#OpenStack_Common-CI_Solution08:15
lennybhow are you nowdays?08:15
anteayait would be great if you could spare a few hours and participate08:15
anteayaI'm at home right now08:15
anteayawas in Colorado last week08:15
lennybI know, I will try to08:15
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lennybhow was the weather? I think A/C is one of the most useful inventions :)08:16
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anteayaColorado was wonderful08:18
anteayaat home is nice too08:18
anteayaI'm a big fan of shade myself08:18
anteayaI don't have A/C at home because I kept the trees08:19
anteayamany folks cut down all the trees and then put in A/C, which I don't understand myself08:19
lennybI see :). We have only palm trees here and +40Celsius, so A/C is a life savers08:20
anteayaI can understand that08:21
anteayanot sure how much shade a palm casts08:21
lennybI am not even sure you can define it as a 'shade'08:21
anteayabut from what I have seen, where they grow, shade tends to be scarce08:21
anteayawell it moves fast08:21
anteayaand there isn't much08:21
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anteayawell you said you didn't have anything to discuss about your CI08:23
anteayaand noone else has arrived08:23
anteayaany objection to me wrapping up?08:23
lennybnope, have a nice day/night/evening08:23
anteayathanks you too08:24
anteayatalk to you later08:24
anteayaand see you next week08:24
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"08:24
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  7 08:24:26 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:24
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-08.01.html08:24
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-08.01.txt08:24
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-08.01.log.html08:24
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Qimingalright, let's get started13:00
Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  7 13:00:26 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
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Qiminghi, there13:00
Qiming#topic add topics to agenda13:01
*** openstack changes topic to "add topics to agenda (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:01
Qiming#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda13:01
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Qimingthe first thing I have in mind is about the talk proposal13:02
Qiming#topic Tokyo summit talk proposal13:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Tokyo summit talk proposal (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:02
Qimingwe have a draft abstract reviewed and approved for submission13:03
QimingI have tried to do this after having collected info from some of you13:03
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yanyanhunice, so the abstract will be proposed for final voting?13:03
Qimingbut ... unfortunately, I don't think the website is friendly to Chinese developers13:03
Qimingyes, yanyanhu13:03
haiweiwhat do you mean13:03
yanyanhuthe website?13:04
Qimingso I have asked lkarm to do me a favor13:04
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Qiminghaiwei, the talk submission site is not working from China I believe13:04
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Qimingevery time you save the presentation (abstract indeed), it is still empty13:04
yanyanhuoh, you mean the blocking done by the 'great firewall'13:04
lkarmI have just submitted the proposal. We can still edit things until July 15 though if something needs to change13:05
Qimingmaybe some APIs made from that website point to Google13:05
Qimingthanks, lkarm13:05
Qimingdo you have a link ?13:05
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Qimingpresenters please check if you have a cool photo there, :)13:05
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Qimingem, I'm getting this: "You cannot edit this presentation"13:06
lkarmI think probably since I submitted it, I am the only one that can edit it?13:06
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lkarmCan you not see it at all?13:07
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QimingI cannot see anything except the single line of error message13:07
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Qiminganyway, we can check it offline13:08
yanyanhuI can see that page13:08
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lkarmOh maybe you have to be listed as a speaker to see it13:08
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haiweii got this message : You can't edit this presentation13:08
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QimingI'm working with some Magnum guys on a new proposal about the interaction between Magnum and Senlin13:09
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yanyanhuhaiwei, you are also on the speaker list13:09
Qimingit would be focused on managing clusters of containers13:09
yanyanhuso I guess you can also access it13:09
lkarmhaiwei, what email did you use to sign in. maybe i used a different one13:09
yanyanhuI just logged in using my work email13:10
haiweixu-haiwei@mxw.nes.nec.co.jp this is different from what I currently use13:10
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haiweiok, leave it later13:10
haiweithe container topic13:10
Qimingthe container specific topic is still under development13:11
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Qimingwe give you all an update when we come up with something solid13:11
yanyanhuok, this is will be an very attractive topic I believe13:12
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Qimingin case you cannot edit the current submission, please drop lkarm an email13:12
haiweithat means senlin will create a container type node?13:12
Qimingyes, haiwei, we are recruiting some university students to do that13:12
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Qimingthe work has just get started, they are studying magnum and senlin13:13
Qiminglet's move on13:13
Qiming#topic liberty-2 milestone targets13:13
*** openstack changes topic to "liberty-2 milestone targets (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:13
Qimingplease check the etherpad page here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-liberty-workitems13:13
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Qimingwe have listed the todo items there13:14
Qimingall targeting liberty-213:14
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Qimingmost of the items are about test cases13:14
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yanyanhuabout unit test, I think we have a good progress till now13:15
Qimingwe have many "missing test case" bugs filed, and guys are claiming them13:15
yanyanhuyes, I think all bugs about test cases have been claimed :)13:16
Qiminghopefully, we can achieve a 90% test coverage by the end of this month13:16
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haiweithat will be great13:17
yanyanhuyes, I think we have big chance ;)13:17
QimingI will be focusing on the complex scaling policy implementation in the following weeks13:17
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yanyanhuok, cool13:17
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yanyanhuthat is another important feature we want to support in liberty release13:18
haiweithe docs seems nearly finished, Qiming13:18
Qimingjust realized that we don't have a single line of test case for python-senlinclient ...13:18
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yanyanhuso maybe we should put this work item in liberty3?13:19
Qimingwell ... the getting started docs work is still not finished13:19
haiweipython-senlinclient should be done in L3?13:19
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Qimings/should/may have to/13:19
yanyanhuabout the doc, I suggest we merge the first version if it has been ready and then complete other parts step by step13:20
yanyanhusince it is so important for other guys to understand Senlin13:20
yanyanhuand provide a guide about how to contribute to this project13:20
Qimingokay, the patch is here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/198538/13:20
Qimingand this is what it will look like when finished: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/38/198538/5/check/gate-senlin-docs/f4890a7//doc/build/html/getting_started/index.html#how-to-use13:21
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Qimingthe current patch contains a rough structure, some drafts about profile types, profiles, and clusters13:22
QimingI think that is big enough for a patch to review13:22
Qimingwill start a new patch to work on docs related to nodes, membership, bindings, policies, etc13:22
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Qiminghopefully this doc can be finished by this week13:23
yanyanhuhi, Qiming, about the wiki page13:24
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yanyanhuis it actually similar to the doc?13:24
yanyanhuabout the content13:24
Qimingyanyanhu, no, I don't think we will maintain two copies of the same content in different places13:25
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yanyanhuso the wiki should give a more brief description?13:25
Qimingon wiki page, we may want to emphasis on the high level designs and even visions13:26
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Qimingwiki site is not something we can do good version control13:26
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yanyanhuok, understand13:27
QimingI think we have covered the documentation topic13:27
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Qiming#topic open discussions13:27
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:27
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Qimingsomething to update to you all13:28
Qimingyanyanhu and I visited a customer last week13:28
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Qimingshowing them the HA work we have done before and the Senlin project we are working on13:28
Qimingthey are pretty interested in this work13:29
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haiweigood news13:29
lkarmthats great13:29
Qimingthey are actually from NFV (Network Function Virtualization) domain13:29
QimingHA is very important a feature to them13:29
haiweisomething similar here, a company want to do auto-scaling without using heat, our job is their desire13:30
Qimingso I'm invited to share what we have done and what we are doing to their world-wide community tomorrow13:30
Qiminghaiwei, that sounds great.13:30
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Qimingwhen talking to them, we are all ears13:30
jruanovery good news13:31
Qimingwe need to listen to them, capture their real requirements13:31
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haiweiI will give a brief introduction to the openstack community team in our company :)13:31
Qimingthanks, haiwei13:32
Qimingyet another thing to update13:32
Qimingwe have talked with some core contributors from the Magnum community13:32
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Qimingthat is why are are proposing another talk proposal to the summit13:33
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Qimingit is about clustering and scaling support to Magnum, at least the infrastructure layer13:33
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QimingKubernetes and swarm each has their own solutions to scale containers13:33
Qimingthe main question is about collecting container metrics to trigger autoscaling13:34
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Qimingand using LBaaS for load balancing13:34
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haiweithe Magnum guys said they don't want to use stack forge project , didn't they?13:35
Qimingthere are other topics such as scheduling support13:35
Qiminghaiwei, yes, that what we heard from Adrian13:35
Qimingbut, things may change at unexpected paces13:35
jruanometric collection will probably have to happen through monasca. not sure if you can collect application level metrics from ceilometer13:36
haiweiso push senlin integrated is important13:36
lkarmso does Magnum mostly want to use the policies that senlin provides?13:36
Qimingjruano, I did tried to send some samples from inside a VM to ceilometer, there are tricks13:36
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Qimingthe difficulty mainly comes from authentication, you need a user/password, you need to know where the auth_url is13:37
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Qimingor else, ceilometer cannot accept your request13:37
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Qiminglkarm, they are evaluating senlin to build their bays13:37
Qimingtheir bays are actually clusters in Senlin13:38
yanyanhuactually, IMHO, senlin might be a good way to support Magnum Bay13:38
lkarmoh okay thats really cool13:38
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Qimingcurrently, they are using Heat templates to create resource groups, that is not very flexible13:39
yanyanhuand its structure also exactly matches Senlin cluster13:39
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QimingI did heard that they can use LBaaS for load-balancing, yanyanhu13:39
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Qimingthat is a good news too13:39
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yanyanhuoh, sure13:40
Qimingthat's all I have to share13:40
yanyanhuif they can use LBaaS as the loadbalancer of Magnum dockers, some obstacle should have been cleaned by them13:40
Qimingyes, I think so13:41
yanyanhuthe only problem is ourself don't have enough bandwidth to cover this part13:41
Qimingglad to see lixinhui is starting code reviews as well13:42
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Qimingwe need more hands13:42
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yanyanhuyep :)13:42
yanyanhuQiming, about the problem we meet when sync with the global requirement, I saw you propse a new patch13:42
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Qimingyanyanhu, yes, working on that13:42
jruanoi can help there... i am currently developing the resource support for magnum within heat13:43
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Qimingjruano, I saw your patch, will jump onto it when it is finished13:43
jruanocool... i have all the code ready. just need some feedback on the current direction13:44
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Qimingyanyanhu, the requirements error was caused by the version of Routes package, need different environment in tox.ini to make the gate happy13:44
yanyanhuabout the patch, I think maybe we can copy requirement.txt to requirement-py3.txt and only change the line that describes the package version of routes13:44
Qimingjruano, I will review when you patch is submitted13:45
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yanyanhuand let py34 testenv depends on this new requirement-py3.txt?13:45
Qimingyanyanhu, tried that, it didn't work13:45
yanyanhujust recalled that I saw a similar patch in other project, but can't remeber the detail13:45
Qimingthere is a new restriction, no duplicate items in two requirements file is allowed now13:46
Qimingand pip is complaining when I tried different versions13:46
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Qimingstill struggling to get things straight13:46
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QimingI think I can work it out today13:47
yanyanhuem, since this issue also blocked the version sync of oslo.db package13:47
Qimingyep, that's the reason I didn't approve the requirements change so far13:47
yanyanhuyes :)13:48
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Qiminganything else?13:48
yanyanhuanother thing is about the splitting of cluster_action, maybe this is also a workitem in L3?13:48
Qimingwell ...13:49
Qimingwe may have to13:49
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Qimingit won't be a huge task to refactor the test cases then13:49
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haiweiabout the presentation proposal, lkarm, does it related to the mail?13:50
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Qimingfeel free to add this to the etherpad13:50
yanyanhuand jruano, maybe you can also split the test case of cluster_action into multiple ones since that could be a huge module :)13:50
lkarmhaiwai, yes i used a different email address than the one that you posted above. i can try to change it13:50
yanyanhuQiming, ok13:50
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jruano_sure, i am starting the test case implementation today so i will figure that out later today13:50
haiweithanks , lkarm13:51
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yanyanhujruano_, great ;)13:51
Qimingany module larger than 2000 lines would be a headache13:51
yanyanhuoh, just filed a bug about using oslo_utils.timeutils to replace datetime, everyone is welcome to claim it :)13:52
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lkarmhaiwei can you try to access now?13:52
* Qiming wonders he should change is subscription to bugs using a different mail address13:53
haiweilkarm, it is ok now13:53
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Qiminghaiwei, when the vote is open, don't forget to call for help for your colleagues, ;)13:54
haiweiof course, sir13:54
haiweijust remind me13:54
QimingI WILL13:55
Qiminganything else?13:55
yanyanhunope from me13:55
Qimingokay, thank you guys for joining13:56
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:56
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  7 13:56:13 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:56
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-07-07-13.00.html13:56
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-07-07-13.00.txt13:56
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asselin#startmeeting third-party17:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  7 17:00:05 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is asselin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'17:00
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asselinhi, who's here for 3rd party ci working group meeting?17:00
asselinhi mmedvede17:01
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asselinhi patrickeast17:02
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asselin#link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#7.2F7.2F15_1700_UTC17:04
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asselinwe have two topics17:04
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asselin#topic Common CI virtual sprint preparation17:04
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asselin#info virtual sprint is tomorrow17:05
asselinwe got common-zuul done last week.17:05
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asselinhave either of you switched to using it?17:05
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mmedvedeI did17:06
patrickeastnot yet17:06
mmedvedeAlthough I still have to use a couple of patches on top of it17:06
asselinmmedvede, cool17:06
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asselinmmedvede, can you elaborate?17:07
mmedvedeasselin: sure. We need to have ability to specify project config revision17:08
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mmedvedeasselin: this is the patch I need:17:08
mmedvede#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/198546/17:08
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asselinmmedvede, cool yeah will take a look today17:08
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asselinmmedvede, we should have something like that for each of the components17:09
mmedvedeasselin: it also seems that project revision passthrough should be added to the rest of downstream puppet modules17:09
asselinmmedvede, +117:09
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mmedvedeIn a similar note, zuul_scheduler does not have revision parameter for zuul repo17:10
mmedvedeI might submit the patches during sprint17:10
asselinmmedvede, yes17:10
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asselinmmedvede, I do want to focus on the remaining components for the sprint.17:11
asselinmmedvede, currently that's nodepool and JJB17:11
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mmedvedeasselin: question - are we going to keep "thinning out" system config more after sprint? E.g. we still have to maintain some copies of system-config code.17:12
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asselinmmedvede, which parts of system config do you still need?17:12
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asselinmmedvede, the goal of the sprint is so that 3rd party ci can be setup w/ as little of system-config as possible....17:13
asselinmmedvede, also the scope of the sprint is to focus on the spec:http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/openstackci.html17:13
mmedvedeOne example is system-config/modules/openstack_project/manifest/jenkins.pp still has jjb. But I guess that what you meant above by concentrating on JJB17:14
asselinthings like gerrit, etc. would be done in a new spec/phase 317:14
asselin*phase 217:15
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asselin#link this patch should be used for JJB https://review.openstack.org/#/c/184919/17:15
mmedvedeasselin: ok, makes sense. The current spec does not have all the tasks that need to happen, and more refactoring of system-config would be done.17:16
asselinmmedvede, what task needs to be added?17:17
asselin#link common-ci tasks: https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/200010117:17
mmedvedesorry for having so many questions. I feel that if I reviewed more patches I would be more in-the-loop17:17
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asselinmmedvede, no problem, ask away17:17
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asselinmmedvede, would like to identify missing pieces sooner than later17:18
mmedvedeasselin: the "masterless puppet" task - can you elaborate what it involves?17:18
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asselinmmedvede, the idea is to be able to setup a 3rd party ci system on a single node. This would be the starting point for new 3rd party folks...the glue that ties everything together17:19
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mmedvedeasselin: this might answer my next question17:21
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mmedvedeI did not know what we were supposed to use in place of system-config to glues things together17:21
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asselinmmedvede, so basically a verion of this that can be customized by each vendor: https://github.com/rasselin/os-ext-testing/blob/master/puppet/modules/os_ext_testing/manifests/master.pp or https://github.com/openstack-infra/system-config/blob/master/manifests/site.pp17:22
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asselinI proposed masterless as I think that is simpler to setup17:23
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asselinmmedvede, do you agree?17:23
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mmedvedeasselin: I agree that masterless is easier to setup. But I am not sure how that would translate into ease of use, as long as upstream modules still utilize master and hiera. But I honestly did not look into it.17:25
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mmedvedeasselin: For example, I am utilizing hiera encryption on master, so I can store my hiera in the same repo as everything else17:25
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asselinmmedvede, yes, I think that would be a good direction: masterless puppet, with the ability to set module versions (pin for stabilty) and use encrypted heira17:27
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asselinmmedvede, do you think that would work? good compromise for ease of installation, use, and maintanability?17:28
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mmedvedeasselin: I need to understand how hiera works without master. When you have master, you have single point where you need to maintain encryption keys.17:30
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asselinmmedvede, when you use a puppet master, how are the encryption keys stored?17:32
mmedvedeasselin: it is hard to know if it would work without seeing it work :) So I definitely support the direction17:32
mmedvedeasselin: puppet-master creates private key to use specifically for hiera encryption17:32
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mmedvedeasselin: this key is only kept on master, and optionally backed up by hand17:33
asselinmmedvede, ok, I see17:33
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mmedvedeasselin: so then you can use public key to encrypt hiera, and only master would be able to use it17:33
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asselinmmedvede, so more investigation is needed17:35
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asselinmmedvede, let's see how far we can get in the sprint. If we can get basics wokring, I would consider that a success. We can always improve from there.17:36
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mmedvedeasselin: I think simplicity wins over having master. +117:37
asselinmmedvede, sounds like you're willing to help out with that part during the sprint?17:38
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mmedvedeI am willing :) I took logstash task though17:39
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asselinmmedvede, oh really, great! didn't see that17:39
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mmedvedelogstash it is low priority. So let me know if you think I can help somewhere else17:39
asselinmmedvede, it's not essential, but certainly very valuable17:40
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mmedvedegreat then :)17:40
rfolcosame here asselin, willing to help but don know where to start17:40
asselinmmedvede, I'll let you pick, you can do both :).17:41
asselinhi rfolco17:41
asselinrfolco, you can help out where your interests are. you work with mmedvede right?17:41
rfolcoasselin, yes, correct. Tasks look big, maybe we can break into smaller sub-tasks ?17:42
asselinok I see...you each took on half of the logstash/kibana17:42
asselinrfolco, storyboard isn't that great for sub-tasks17:42
asselinrfolco, so I kept them high-level17:43
rfolcoI see17:43
mmedvedeWe can probably split them as we go if needed, in the etherpad17:43
asselinmmedvede, yeah17:43
mmedvede#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint17:43
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asselinok, anything else? otherwise we should change to topic #217:45
mmedvedenope, thanks asselin17:45
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asselinrfolco, mmedvede I think it's fine you work together on logstash. I'll pick up the masterless puppet task if noone else wants it :)17:46
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rfolcosounds good to me17:47
asselin#topic Spec to have infra host scoreboard (krtaylor)17:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Spec to have infra host scoreboard (krtaylor) (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:47
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asselinI think krtaylor is out this week. anyone have any updates to issues to discuss?17:47
asselin#link scoreboard spec https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194437/17:48
asselinpatrickeast, you still around?17:48
mmedvedeThere is some questions about new spec relation to the old dashboard17:48
patrickeastasselin: yea mostly17:48
* patrickeast catching up on scrollback17:48
patrickeastah yea, so i’m not sure what we need to do to get that spec moving17:49
patrickeastjogo has proposed a pretty cool alternative too17:49
patrickeastits in the review17:50
mmedvedethe lastcomment serves different purpose though17:50
asselin#link http://jogo.github.io/lastcomment/17:50
patrickeastmaybe more complimentary to the scoreboard17:50
mmedvede+1 on complimentary, not alternative17:50
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asselinto move forward, we can add to the infra meeting agenda17:52
mmedvedeIntention of the spec needs to be made clearer, so there is not confusion that it tries to replace the dashboard spec17:52
asselinnot sure if today is too late17:52
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asselinwe can add it, and perhaps get votes by next week17:52
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asselinso it is ready to add to agenda? or should we iterate one more time?17:57
mmedvedeasselin: the comments need to be addressed first17:57
asselinjhesketh's comments? he -1 and rollcall +1...not sure what that means17:58
mmedvedeyes, I was referring to jhesketh comments17:58
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asselin#topic open discussion17:59
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:59
mmedvedeasselin: thank you for leading the meeting today!17:59
asselinthanks...see you all tomorrow!18:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  7 18:00:21 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-17.00.html18:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-17.00.txt18:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-17.00.log.html18:00
stevemarkeystoners assemble!18:00
stevemarajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, stevemar, topol, wanghong18:00
lbragstadstevemar: hey18:00
samueldmqhey p/18:00
raildoyay \o18:00
stevemarhey hey! :)18:01
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david8huyo ho18:01
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bknudsonHEY HEY HEY18:01
stevemarhenrynash won't be joining today18:02
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stevemarhes leaving, on a jet plane18:02
bknudsonthinking of the fat albert theme song now18:02
stevemarmeeting ref: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:02
stevemarmorganfainberg will be aroundish18:02
bknudsonbut I was already thinking of that after watching the news18:02
lbragstadreminds me of John Denver18:02
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stevemarwe definitely have enough to start :)18:03
morganfainbergIm here. Just delegating meeting chair to stevemar today.18:03
stevemar#startmeeting keystone18:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  7 18:03:13 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:03
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stevemar#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:03
morganfainbergMeans in can be the peanut gallery today :P18:03
stevemarmorganfainberg: don't heckle too much18:03
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stevemarthe agenda is small today18:04
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stevemar#topic Start restricting "/" in project names in Liberty18:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Start restricting "/" in project names in Liberty (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:04
stevemarhtruta_: rodrigods ^18:04
htruta_ayoung: lol18:04
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htruta_so, morganfainberg asked us to send an email to ml18:04
stevemaryeah, i can't image there is much push back on this one18:04
ayoungthey are already restricted18:04
htruta_including operators18:04
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ayoungsince we build the URL out of them, they will break18:05
morganfainbergFwiw I like this plan. But i dont want to break people (operators)18:05
htruta_no one answered18:05
morganfainbergayoung: we dont do urls by project name anywhere afaik18:05
bknudsonnot everybody reads the mailing list18:05
ayoungmorganfainberg, not it Keystone, just everywhere else18:05
ayoungoh, wait, no you are right18:05
htruta_the only guy who answered said "Do you mean project names or project IDs?"18:05
ayoungthat is ID18:05
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rodrigodsthere is no better broadcast AFAIK, bknudson18:05
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ayoungJust do it18:05
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ayounganyone putting slashes in there is sick in the head anyway18:06
htruta_we tried to give them voice, bknudson18:06
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morganfainbergWe could probably just escape the / in the names (with a migration) and make clients smart about handing escaped variables18:06
morganfainbergAnd/or horizon18:06
raildomorganfainberg, ++18:06
dstanekmorganfainberg: that's not very restful18:06
stevemarhtruta_: rodrigods this is for displaying heirarchy?18:06
morganfainbergdstanek: we still dont do anything by project name in urls18:07
htruta_stevemar, this is for passing hierarchy in the future18:07
htruta_with the slash18:07
rodrigodshtruta_, ++18:07
htruta_in token body, env variables18:07
ayoungnew rule.  All names must be URL safe18:07
morganfainbergdstanek: not very rest impacting18:07
htruta_ayoung ++18:07
morganfainbergayoung: base64 encode all the things /s18:07
bknudsonall names must be english18:07
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dstanekif we're not talking about the URL then we should be fine and don't need any encoding18:08
ayounglet me find the technical term18:08
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dstanekayoung: awesome?18:08
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morganfainbergayoung: url safe isnt good for utf-8 unless urlencoded.18:08
morganfainbergJust fyi18:08
stevemarwouldn't a global delimiter work better? and then check if the name includes the delimiter?18:08
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morganfainbergdstanek: we need to expose a get-project-by name api. But that is something we can handle.18:08
htruta_the slash would be it, stevemar18:09
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dstanekmorganfainberg: hmmm....i think you can actually match a '/' in the routes regex18:09
rodrigodslet's use slash18:09
rodrigodslinux uses it18:09
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ayoung"All names must pass through URL encoding unchanged"  maybe?18:09
stevemari think swift uses it too18:09
htruta_everybody likes slash: http://bigread.mojo4music.com/2014/01/slash/img/slash-portrait.jpg18:09
morganfainbergOk so i think a combo of two things solves the issue.18:09
htruta_(sorry, I had to do this)18:10
lbragstadhtruta_: ++18:10
morganfainbergThis is from two proposals18:10
stevemarhtruta_: ++18:10
morganfainbergSlash is default18:10
morganfainbergAlways preceed the hierarchy with the delimiter18:10
morganfainbergso 1st character is the delimiter18:10
ayoungSlash is default.  Clapton is God18:10
geoffarnoldWe really do need a global standard for the delimiter. Old school Path Separator worked ok on an isolated machine, broke with distributed file systems18:10
rodrigodsmorganfainberg, beautiful18:10
lbragstadayoung: +++18:10
morganfainbergAnd the delimiter can be configured if needee18:10
htruta_ayoung ++18:10
lbragstadayoung: fact18:10
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geoffarnold"first character is delimiter" is guranteed to confuse when someone gets it wrong18:11
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morganfainberggeoffarnold: we cant arbitrarily restrict a delimiter from18:11
rodrigodsso we have this new config that says the "prohibited" char? morganfainberg18:11
stevemari'm in favor of a configurable delimiter18:11
ayoungmorganfainberg, hell yes we can18:11
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dstanekif we use the first character will all project names from now on need to be specified with the delimiter?18:11
jamielennoxi'm anti a configurable delimiter18:11
morganfainbergayoung: no we cant. We cannot break current deployments.18:11
morganfainbergWe should use the ascii bell character instead >.>18:12
jamielennoxit's another switch that makes one deployment different to another for no real benefit18:12
htruta_dstanek: no, we'll only pass the parent_id as we do today18:12
topolplease dont break current deployments18:12
ayoung"Names must be usable as a segement of URLS.  Any Names that do not currently comply are not guarenteed to work with all future APIs"18:12
rodrigodstopol, we don't want to... we sent an email to -dev and -operators18:12
dstanekhtruta_: how do we know when to use the first character as a delimiter?18:12
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geoffarnoldif any existing deployments use "/" in a project name, it will break18:12
bknudsonwe can deprecate / in project names and switch in 6 months18:13
ayoungnames as they exist now will be grandfathered in, but will not work with HMT18:13
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rodrigodsdstanek, it is not in the name, but in an extra field18:13
ayoungor other, future APIS18:13
rodrigodsto specify the hierarchy18:13
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htruta_rodrigods ++18:13
rodrigodsthe names remains like the "relative path"18:13
rodrigodsthe "absolute path" would be an extra field18:13
stevemarayoung: yeah, just can't use them as part of HMT18:13
dstaneknow i'm really confused18:13
geoffarnoldHere's a test: how many people ever, anywhere, configured the Unix/Windows path sep to anything other than the default?18:13
morganfainbergIn the hierarchy just replace (when construtong) / with \/18:14
jamielennoxgeoffarnold: you can do that?18:14
morganfainbergBackslash slash18:14
ayounggeoffarnold, I ofetn configure the Windows one with the Unix one.  Breaks all over the place.  I do this on systems for people I don't like18:14
morganfainbergIt works like posix would18:14
amakarovmorganfainberg, slashes are by default for HMT too?18:14
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geoffarnoldSo are we going to introduce POSIX-style configurability, or mandate "/"18:14
morganfainbergJust make / the delimiter. But in the heirarchy doing \/ if / is in the name18:15
amakarovmorganfainberg, oh, right - "projects"18:15
dstanekmorganfainberg: ++18:15
morganfainbergOr quote the names.18:15
topolmorganfainberg +++18:15
geoffarnoldI'm strongly against "first char is the sep". Imagine inadvertantly typing "abracadabra" and getting "a" as the sep18:15
htruta_morganfainberg ++18:15
ericksonsantosmorganfainberg, ++18:15
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ayounglet's be very restrictive here18:16
topolgeoffarnold I agree18:16
morganfainbergayoung: slash is the delimiter.18:16
ayoung"names must pass through URL Encoding unchanged"18:16
morganfainbergayoung: if slash is in the name, escape it when buildong the hierarchy18:16
morganfainbergThat solves the grandfathered in issue18:16
morganfainbergAnd doesnt change anything for the operator18:16
ayoungmorganfainberg, works for me.18:17
topolso what morganfainberg suggests is easy to understand and follow18:17
samueldmqmorganfainberg: just to make sure, if we already had \/ in the project name, that still works, right ?18:17
rodrigodsmorganfainberg, should we change the current project names? or just in M?18:17
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morganfainbergsamueldmq: you'd end up with \\/18:17
ayoungwe should advise that names will be used this way, and should not include characters that will be escaped18:17
morganfainbergrodrigods: talk about being more restrictive in M with more operator feedback18:17
htruta_so, in Liberty we'll just warn people?18:17
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morganfainbergI want to eliminate slash. But i want to avoid breaking anyone.18:18
geoffarnoldI'd like a "safe" mode in CLI and Horizon, rejecting "/" in non-HMT contexts18:18
htruta_or will we already make this restriction?18:18
morganfainbergDont change anything in L18:18
morganfainberggeoffarnold: we cant because everyhing is HMT soon18:18
bknudsonwe'll need identty API v4 to support HMT18:18
geoffarnoldI mean any context where a token is meant to represent a node, not a path18:18
morganfainbergSo in specifying a hierarchy \/ == / in a prkect name18:19
morganfainbergBut onlu in the hierarchy represenataiton18:19
morganfainbergVery similar to filesystem referencing special characters/spaces/etc18:19
ayoungpractical concern:  will our webobjectwhatever support that?18:19
morganfainbergayoung: since we dont do anything by project name as part of the url, (query string aside) we shpuld be ok18:20
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ayoungmorganfainberg, ...lets face it UUIDs are abusive18:20
htruta_can't we filter something by the name?18:20
ayoungpeople want names.18:20
morganfainbergayoung: so in m we talk about being more restrictive18:21
morganfainbergWe need more feedback before hard locking that out. Or knowing we need urlencoding18:21
ayoungfair enough.  Works for me.  Although ,  I would argue we should be restrictive for new resources now...18:21
morganfainbergThis isnt really "new though"18:21
rodrigodsayoung, ++18:21
ayoungbut that might put the hurt on upgrades that do a full export-import18:21
morganfainbergAnd all projects are part of a hierarchy in l18:21
morganfainbergayoung: that too18:22
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morganfainbergMost cases we wont ever hit issues18:23
geoffarnoldSo let's be clear: what will be in "L" and what in "M"? Is HMT usable in "L" (without APIv4?18:23
jamielennoxso we decided to not do project names are unique in a domain?18:23
morganfainbergBut we address where people put slashes into the names.18:23
htruta_jamielennox, not yet18:23
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morganfainberggeoffarnold: we will not be doing an api v4 in L. And i dont want to talk about thst for M at this point18:24
geoffarnoldSo is HMT usable in L?18:24
morganfainberggeoffarnold: yes.18:24
morganfainbergThat is the plan. The only edge case is: if a project has a / in the name, do \/ in the hierarchy definition. Dont change the name18:24
morganfainbergThink of it like a path18:25
samueldmqgeoffarnold: it's already usable in K, for organizating the projects in a hierarchy (let's say representing a departmental organization, for ex)18:25
ayoungOK...anything that needs formal approval for this htruta_ ?18:25
ayoungspec or anything18:25
morganfainbergayoung: just an update to a spec18:25
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morganfainbergUnless anyone has concerns with the proposal?18:25
stevemar20 minutes on slash, good thing we only have 1 other topic18:26
jamielennoxso the plan will be if i create a new project and i name it "A/B/C", i'll automatically be creating a hierarchy?18:26
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dstanekmorganfainberg: who has to do that escaping? the keystone servers or the clients?18:26
bknudsonit's not backwards compatible18:26
morganfainbergdstanek: clients18:26
bknudsonso it violates the stability guidelines18:26
morganfainbergbknudson: we dont require specification of the heirarchy today18:26
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morganfainbergSo this doesnt break anything18:26
dstanekjamielennox: i don't think so18:26
david8huis "A/B/C" absolute or relative?18:27
dstanekmorganfainberg: is there anyway we can do it on the server side?18:27
morganfainbergThe escape is only in the hierarchy representation.18:27
htruta_jamielennox, we are not doing this, at least, not now. I think we should restrict using slash in create projects18:27
lbragstadit should be relative, right?18:27
morganfainbergdstanek: well the server will hand back the hierarchy like that if asked18:27
htruta_jamielennox, we need parent_id (not name), a domain and a name18:27
morganfainbergdstanek: but if they havent asked for the hierarchy, the client would need to construct it18:27
david8huIt should be relative to the current project scope.18:28
stevemarhtruta_: create and set18:28
dstanekif the server can has here is your project name and the hierarchy under which it sets they wouldn't have to - i don't like the idea of putting this kind of logic in the clients18:28
morganfainbergdstanek: if you have the info from the server its fine. The part that the client needs to know is *if* you dont already have that info18:28
ayoungif we are going to support creating a hierarchy, it should be a new API call.  like mkdir -P18:29
morganfainbergSame as today.18:29
dstanekmorganfainberg: can't it ask for it?18:29
morganfainbergIf you know your project id, from previous query etc, you can use it18:29
jamielennoxok, i didn't mean to derail that onto creation but i'm just trying to figure out where you would use this18:29
morganfainbergDepends on auth by name18:29
dstaneki worry that as we make changes we can't do it as easily is we have clients that depends on doing the logic themselves18:29
jamielennoxwhy using a slash is better than listing subprojects of the current project then doing things by id18:29
htruta_jamielennox, it's on token request by project name18:29
morganfainbergYou may not be able to know it dstanek18:30
morganfainbergUuid/uuid/uuid is awful and borderline unusable from a ux18:30
stevemarhtruta_: if i'm authenticating with project name, do i have to supply the whole 'a/b/c' or just 'c' ?18:30
bknudsonso because we decided we're not going to change token request to use a list rather than a string now we're forced down this path of restricting project names to not have /18:31
ayoungstevemar, whole thing if it is ambiguous18:31
bknudsonthat was pretty sneaky18:31
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morganfainbergbknudson: we didnt restrict / from project names18:31
dstanekstevemar: the whole thing if there is another project with the same name, i think18:31
jamielennoxayoung: we can't say if it's ambiguous, if it works today where name is unique and suddenly tomorrow name is not unique then everything breaks18:31
bknudsonmorganfainberg: that's the proposal -- don't allow / in project names18:31
morganfainbergbknudson: we just require escaping / in the hierarchy specification thats all that is being proposed now18:32
bknudsonStart restricting "/" in project names in Liberty?18:32
morganfainbergbknudson: right and weve shifted from that as incompatible18:32
geoffarnold+1 bknudson18:32
htruta_stevemar, I'd be fine if you passed just C when there is no conflict. if there is another C in the domain, you'd need the hierarchy18:32
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morganfainbergThough I would like to restrict that. We cant atm18:32
david8hubknudson, +118:32
dstanekstevemar: htruta_: that was/is one of my concerns about what the user has to know18:33
bknudsonso is htruta and rodrigods fine with that change?18:33
geoffarnoldSo what will "GET /v3/projects" yield from the root of the HMT?18:33
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dstaneki'd be happier if they always had to provide an unambiguous project name18:33
morganfainberghtruta, rodrigods ^^ bknudson's question18:33
rodrigodsdstanek, ++18:33
lbragstaddstanek: ++18:33
rodrigodsbknudson, restricting / ?18:33
morganfainbergRe the change to escape / vs restrict /18:34
morganfainbergAnd escape only in the hierarchy representation18:34
ayoungjamielennox, nothing else is backwards compatible18:34
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stevemardstanek: yeah, that'll be clunky when authenticating i think18:34
rodrigodsmorganfainberg, I'd be glad to follow any of them18:34
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rodrigodsjust looking for a consensus :)18:35
htruta_i'd be okay with any of them, but I'd prefer restricting18:35
stevemarproject:{ name: {"a/b/c/"}} - i guess that works18:35
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bknudsondoesn't work since it's not valid json18:35
stevemarbknudson: it's valid18:35
morganfainbergstevemar: uh. {"thing"} isnt18:36
dstanekproject: {root: 'a/b', name]'18:36
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morganfainbergdstanek: still needs escapes but.. Sure?18:36
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dstanekproject: {root: 'a/b', name: 'c'}    --or-- project: {name: 'a/b/c'}?18:37
stevemarmorganfainberg: oops, yeah, i was more concerned about slashes in the value part18:37
morganfainbergdstanek: both need to handle / in the names.18:37
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morganfainbergBut either work for me18:37
rodrigodsdstanek, {root: '/a/b', name: 'c'}18:37
rodrigodsI'd prefer18:37
ayoung project: ['a','b','c']18:37
rodrigodsso we could18:37
dstanek--or -- project: {root: ['a', 'b'], name: 'c'}18:37
rodrigodsdstanek, {root: '/', name: 'a'}18:37
stevemarboth should work18:37
morganfainbergayoung: also an option. And id be fine with that18:37
htruta_dstanek, the one with the root18:37
htruta_so, we could keep passing just the name when no conflict happens :D less people broken18:38
dstanekhtruta_: how do we know when there will be a confilct?18:38
morganfainbergdstanek: until you try you dont.18:39
morganfainbergAnd you can suddenly have a conflict18:39
morganfainbergSo a valid request could suddenly fail18:39
dstanekmorganfainberg: and then how do they get the list of hierarchies?18:39
ayoungand that means that if you are worried about that, use the full path version18:39
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dstanekif you can get a list the clients don't have to know how to encode18:39
morganfainbergdstanek: we should always pass the full path18:39
rodrigodsdstanek, we can include the "root" attribute in projects info18:39
bknudsonmaybe we should use URLs for project IDs18:40
dstanekbut this is the thing i didn't like before. working code can suddenly break18:40
morganfainbergIf you want deeper than 1 level below the domain.18:40
morganfainbergbknudson: we should do that for all resources in openstack18:40
ayoungbknudson, I think we should work towards that18:40
morganfainbergNot just in keystone.18:40
jamielennoxbknudson: ++18:41
dstanekso users will have OS_PROJECT_NAME and OS_PROJECT_ROOT defined when using the clients?18:41
ayoungdstanek, that is the price we pay for making this feature work18:41
rodrigodsdstanek, yes18:41
bknudsondstanek: I'll put it in my clouds.yaml18:41
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ayoungdstanek, that will make people sad18:41
bknudsonneed to change all the auth plugins18:41
dstanekayoung: i disagree this is the price we pay for having the is_domain project point to itself18:41
htruta_I guess this is another discussion18:42
morganfainbergAlways pass a hierarchy if you want anything below the first layer of the domain18:42
rodrigodsusing / has the advantage for SAML assertions generated by keystone too18:42
morganfainbergIf you dont pass a hierarchy it works like today. Nothing nested.18:42
rodrigodsotherwise we would include another attribute to identity projects/domains18:42
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ayoungWhy do we do this to ourselves?18:42
jamielennoxso i say this is divisive and nobody really knows how this will work because HMT really isn't out there. I think we initially restrict login by name to that top level of existing projects, require login by id for others and we figure out the rescoping process better in future18:42
ayoungOh, wait, we inherited this mess....18:42
rodrigodsayoung, lol18:43
ayoungjamielennox, and add in a new rule that says that project names under the root must not contain /18:43
ayoungOK,  that took 43 minutes18:43
lbragstad~16 minutes left18:43
morganfainbergOk this is going in circles18:43
morganfainbergWe need to move on18:43
ayounganything else we want to talk about?18:43
samueldmqayoung: morganfainberg dynamic policies ..18:44
htruta_ok, morganfainberg... so... nothing changes in L?18:44
dstanekshould this be a topic for the midcycle?18:44
morganfainbergDiscuss this more offline18:44
geoffarnoldThe worst thing would be if we created a horrible solution for working with API v3 and then felt constrained to perpetuate the bad bits in v418:44
morganfainbergdstanek: likely18:44
lbragstaddstanek: ++18:44
ayoung"Should "Policy Fetch & Cache + Endpoint Constraint Enforcement" live in their own Middleware ?"18:44
jamielennoxayoung: i don't really care. I think we want to enforce the unscoped token, then scoped token flow and we have the client search for project name as a convenience and do auth by id18:44
ayoungshort answer "yes and no"18:44
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ayoungyes in that it would be cleaner18:44
ayoungand that we should be able to deploy that way18:44
ayoungno in that it is a PITA18:44
ayoungso...we do both18:44
stevemar#topic Should "Policy Fetch & Cache + Endpoint Constraint Enforcement" live in their own Middleware18:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Should "Policy Fetch & Cache + Endpoint Constraint Enforcement" live in their own Middleware (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:44
ayoungmake ATM work as a stack of separatable middelwares18:44
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gyeesooo which one is yes and which one is no?18:45
ayounggyee, we make ATM work as a pre-canned pipeline18:45
samueldmqso, first of all, Spec Freeze Exception email from last week18:45
samueldmq#link https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg57416.html18:45
ayoungbut make it so we can deploy the middleware's separately as well18:45
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gyeejamielennox, you have any nasty thing to say to ayoung?18:46
gyeefor making it separate middleware? :)18:46
samueldmqone of the topics for dynamic polcieis today is whether we create a separate middleware filter for dynamic fething of policies + endpoint constraint enforcement18:46
jamielennoxi think it should be seperate, i don't really see the difference in the auth_token middleware pipeline to being in the regular pipeline after auth_token middleware18:46
ayounglets make it "separatable" and then the question is whether we make it possible to link into  ATM as well18:46
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dstanekwhat do you mean by link into?18:47
ayoungjamielennox, modifying every single puppet deployment script for each service would be painful18:47
gyeeayoung, it is separatable right now, _enforce_global_target is a separate class18:47
ayoungdstanek, Ideally, ATM would be something like a list of middlewares18:47
gyeetrivial to move it to separate middleware18:48
ayounggyee, we are on the way to it, yes18:48
gyeejust put a shim around it18:48
ayoungso make it explicit: Auth token middleware contains no code other than managing a list of other middlewares executed in order, and we add policy to that to start.18:49
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ayoungmessing with paste means that this will go nowhere18:49
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ayoungwe want to minimize the impact on other projects18:49
gyeemo refactoring :)18:49
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gyeebut I like it18:49
ayoungwe already made them all update to run oslo as a library.  Let's hold it there18:50
samueldmqyes make sense .. although auth_token could be called anything else then18:50
samueldmqbut if we change its name, we fall into the same issue18:50
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ayoungthe trickier parts of getting the other projects to agree is still in the future18:50
* gyee is stealing from apache mod_authnz18:50
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jamielennoxgyee: i read that as auth new zealand18:51
ayoungand it has to do with unifying the approach to the policy content itself.18:51
samueldmqjamielennox: hehe18:51
lbragstad~9 minutes left18:51
ayoungHow to identify the endpoint at Middleware ? Endpoint URL vs Endpoint ID vs Policy custom ID18:51
samueldmqso auth_token would be refactored to be a middleware 'wrapper', containing the actual auth_token + the policy fetch thing18:51
gyeejamielennox, nice18:51
ayoungshort answer.  URL18:51
samueldmqayoung: gyee ^18:51
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ayoungURL must map to at least one endpoint's URL value in order to work18:52
morganfainbergayoung: long answer "U                       R                      L"? :P18:52
ayoungif there are multiple "endpoints" at the same URL, but with different endpoint_ids...we force them all to use the same policy file18:52
gyeesamueldmq, didn't we agree on custom endpoint ID?18:52
ayounggyee, nope18:52
stevemarmorganfainberg: you're enjoying the peanut gallery too much today18:52
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ayounggyee, here is the goal:18:52
morganfainbergstevemar: hey im not heckling much.18:53
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ayoungwe need something that is pre-calculated but that maps to an endpoint18:53
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ayoungif we do a custom name, that requires a whole new mapping18:53
samueldmqayoung: that could be a custom endpoint id18:53
ayoungsamueldmq, nope18:53
samueldmqayoung: custom endpoint id != custom policy id18:53
ayoung"cuystome endpoint id" means something that we need to map to a new endpoint18:53
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ayoungwe need these to resolve upwards18:53
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ayoungwe don't expect policy to be deployed per endpoint18:54
gyeeayoung, endpoint group then?18:54
gyeedynamic endpoint group18:54
ayounggyee, lets not18:54
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ayoungplease...keep it simple18:54
ayoungyou are making this much harder than needs be18:54
gyeesimpler than endpoint groups?18:54
ayounggyee, we don't have those in every deployment18:54
gyeejust a filter18:54
ayoungjust the end point18:54
ayoungyou "fetch" based on the most specific18:55
gyeeendpoint what?18:55
ayoungyou resolve to the most general18:55
ayoungI would do endpoint ID, but we want something that is precalculatable18:55
gyeeURL is too ambiguous18:55
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ayoungno it is not18:55
ayoungif the same URL is used by two endpoints they get the same policy. Period18:55
gyeepublic URL is just an API proxy in must deployments18:55
ayoungthat is fine18:56
ayoungthen they all get the same policy file18:56
dstanekin my mind this was as simple as a service containing an id that maps to a particular policy. the service looks up the id in their config and then periodically requests it from keystone18:56
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ayoungdstanek, no18:56
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ayoungservioce does not say "give me this particular policy"18:56
gyeesame policy for multiple services?18:56
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ayoungservices endpoint says "I am endpoijjnt blah, give me my policy" and keystone choses which to serve18:56
gyeethought we are not doing that in the first round18:56
ayoungthis has always been the starting point18:57
ayoungif you don't get this...well, that is why I have a 30+ slide presentation I am preparing for next week18:57
samueldmqayoung: yes I agree, however, if we allowed custom *endpoint* ids, we would identify the endpoints18:57
gyeeI thought for the first phase, we are still keeping the service policies separate18:57
samueldmqayoung: with something that could be known a priori18:57
dstanekayoung: it's basically the same thing - here is the ID i have configured...give me the correct policy18:57
dstanekjust slightly different18:57
gyeeif we are going to combine them, then yeah, we have a different ball game18:57
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ayoungOK...the only reason we went with URL is beacuse we know it ahead of time.  If we don't do URL, we go back to endpoint_id.  But URL is *good enough*18:58
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gyeeURL is not good enough till we combine policies18:58
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gyeeotherwise it would be ambiguous18:58
gyeesecurity people hate ambiguity18:59
ayoungdstanek, gyee are you talking based on real experience or is this just a mind experiment?18:59
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ayoungNo...there is no ambiguity18:59
gyeeayoung, real deployment18:59
dstanekayoung: mind experiment!18:59
ayounggyee, so you have a deployment, where one service host has multiple endpoints with different policy on them?18:59
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samueldmqstevemar: I think time's over, we should leave the floor to #infra ... should we continue in #keystone ?19:00
ayoungkeystone admin has different policy than keystone main?19:00
gyeeayoung, out public URL has multiple services behind it19:00
lbragstadout of time,19:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  7 19:00:28 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
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openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-07-07-18.03.html19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-07-07-18.03.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-07-07-18.03.log.html19:00
stevemarthanks for the poke ayoung19:00
gyeedamit, gimme Liberty or gimme mo time!19:00
fungihrm... so quiet without the keystoners here19:01
AJaegerfungi, let's change that ;)19:01
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stevemarfungi: you've got a crowd now19:02
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jeblair#startmeeting infra19:02
Shrewshey hey19:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  7 19:02:14 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:02
jeblair#link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:02
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jeblair#link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-30-19.01.html19:02
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jeblair#topic Specs approval19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
jeblair#topic Specs approval: Refstack hosting19:03
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*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: Refstack hosting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
jeblair#link refstack hosting spec http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/refstack_dot_org.html19:03
jeblair#info refstack hosting spec approved19:03
jeblairso that landed!19:03
pleia2yay refstack spec19:03
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fungii have a change proposed to create that server now19:04
fungithough it needs some puppet help19:04
jeblairlight the puppet signal19:04
* crinkle hides19:04
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fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/19886919:04
fungii started digging into the failure log there19:04
fungihaven't gotten very far19:04
fungihogepodge: ^ when you get time19:04
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fungianyway, we can move on with specs news19:05
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jeblairyay progress, and it's nice for puppet folks to have outed themselves :)19:05
mordredyay puppet people19:05
jeblair#topic Specs approval: Centralize release tagging19:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: Centralize release tagging (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
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jeblair#link centralize release tagging spec https://review.openstack.org/19119319:06
pabelangerfungi, incoming reviews19:06
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jeblairthis has gone through several revisions19:06
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jeblairwith some really good back and forth on the different options, most of which is actually captured in the alternatives section19:06
fungiyep, was in the middle of rereading it when the meeting snuck up on me19:06
jeblairso you probably don't even need to look at the old review comments :)19:06
dhellmannjeblair: should I fix that typo in the current patch, or submit a cleanup patch?19:07
jeblairdhellmann: i'd go with cleanup19:07
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dhellmannjeblair: ack19:07
fungii have at least one additional rendering error i'm seeing19:08
fungiwhich can also go to cleanup19:08
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dhellmannfungi: ok, I'll watch for a comment (I didn't see any issues scanning quickly just now)19:09
dhellmannoh, in the list, I see it19:09
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fungidhellmann: i went ahead and added it now while i'm finishing reading through it19:09
fungii mean, while i'm paying attention in this meeting!19:09
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jeblairanyway, i think a good set of affected/interested folks have examined this; anyone think it needs more time or should we open voting?19:09
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dhellmanncleanups: https://review.openstack.org/19922619:10
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fungigo ahead and open voting. if i discover i'm concerned by anything it it while finishing skimming we can always adjust the spec down the road19:11
dhellmannyeah, I expect to tweak the file format details as we start implementing the tools to read it, but I think this is what we want in broad strokes19:11
jeblairsounds good19:11
jeblair#info centralize release tagging spec voting open until 2015-07-09 19:00 UTC19:12
fungiit looks like it embodies enough of what we discussed early on that we've got latitude to shift direction with tooling down the road since it's starting out mostly manual19:12
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jeblairdhellmann: thanks!19:12
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jeblair#topic Schedule Project Renames19:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Schedule Project Renames (Meeting topic: infra)"19:13
dhellmannjeblair: thanks for all the feedback along the way19:13
jeblairanyone want to do some renames, or should we wait a few more weeks?19:13
*** ayoung is now known as ayoung-afk19:13
jeblair(as an aside, i got good feedback from the tc last week on the stackforge resolution, and hope to have a revised version ready for next week's meeting)19:14
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fungilooks like we have a dozen lined up so far19:14
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anteayasprint is this friday19:14
fungithis weekend is out for me since i'm closing on a house at the end of the week19:14
jeblairanteaya: wed/thurs i think19:14
anteayaI'm at keystone midcycle next friday19:14
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anteayaso it is19:14
pleia2I'm around all week (though participating in puppet sprint friday)19:15
fungiweekend after next is oscon travel i think19:15
anteayaI had in my head thursday friday19:15
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anteayaI prefer small bites19:15
anteayarather than huge platters of rename19:15
pleia2fungi: yeah, I fly out on that friday19:15
anteayathe last round was tiring19:15
fungii could probably do friday the 18th since i don't fly until the weekend19:15
pabelangerI'll assist if needed19:15
anteayajuly 18th is a saturday19:16
fungier, 17th ;)19:16
nibzya, is there a way for people like me to help with these operations?19:16
jeblairpabelanger: cool, thanks; there ended up being a lot of project-config changes that needed wrangling last time (that was actually most of the work)19:16
jeblairnibz: ^19:16
anteayanibz: review the patches19:16
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jeblairand rebase/fix/resolve conflicts19:16
fungiand also review the maintenance plan for mismatches/discrepancies19:16
fungiand also help test things out afterward19:17
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AJaegerduring review we should check that the changes are really renames and no new jobs added - let's keep the changes simple19:17
nibzim free july 18th to help19:17
fungimordred: any interest in having your rename playbook in shape for that?19:17
jeblairnibz: how about july 17?19:17
mordredfungi: yes19:17
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jeblairpleia2: are you flying on 17th?19:17
anteayajuly 17th is keystone midcycle for me19:18
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anteayabut the week after is nova midcycle19:18
fungimordred: are you around on the 17th? (metaphysical question i know)19:18
anteayaso planning around me isn't really useful19:18
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nibzjeblair: ya I can july 1719:19
mordredI get on a plane at 2pm Eastern19:19
mordredso - I may not be actually available at a useful time19:19
pleia2jeblair: yes, need to be there in time for friday evening events19:19
jeblair#startvote are you available for renames on these dates? july10, july17, both19:19
openstackBegin voting on: are you available for renames on these dates? Valid vote options are july10, july17, both.19:19
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.19:19
pleia2#vote july1019:20
jeblairi'm abusing the poll option here to survey our availability ^19:20
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jeblair#vote both19:20
anteaya#vote july1019:20
zaro#vote july1019:20
pabelanger#vote july1019:20
fungi#vote july1719:20
* zaro on vacation in coming weeks.19:20
nibz#vote both19:20
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jeblairmordred: ?19:21
mordred#vote july1019:21
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jeblairi think that's everyone who expressed an interest19:21
openstackVoted on "are you available for renames on these dates?" Results are19:21
openstackjuly17 (1): fungi19:21
openstackboth (2): jeblair, nibz19:21
openstackjuly10 (5): mordred, pleia2, anteaya, zaro, pabelanger19:21
jeblairpleia2: have you done one of these?19:22
fungii'm fine skipping one. i think i've been around for the last 10+19:22
anteayajeblair: any way I can get permissions on the github rename part?19:22
anteayajeblair: that seems like a tough slog and something I could figure out how to do19:22
pleia2jeblair: I pitched in a couple times ago, and have watched several, I'm ready to take a stronger role this time around19:22
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jeblairanteaya: fraid not; the perms to do that are terrifyingly broad.  i don't like that i have them.19:22
anteayajeblair: okay, I'm trying to find ways to help19:23
jeblairpleia2: woot, then i think we should do it on july 1019:23
jeblairgive fungi a break and you an opportunity19:23
pleia2sounds good19:23
jeblairpleia2: want to start by sending the announcement? :)19:23
pleia2jeblair: will do19:24
pleia2what time?19:24
pleia2US pacific afternoon on friday seems best19:24
jeblair20:00 or 21:00 utc?19:24
jeblairer, wait not those19:24
jeblair21 or 22?19:25
jeblairperhaps 22?19:25
anteayaI think last one was 220019:25
nibz2200 sgtm19:25
jeblair#agreed next project renames at 2200 utc july 1019:25
jeblair#action pleia2 send announcement of next project renames at 2200 utc july 1019:26
anteayawho will set up the etherpad for the event?19:26
anteayafungi usually does that19:26
fungii am happy to provide tips19:26
jeblairfungi: want to help pleia2 with that?19:26
pleia2I can take a stab at that too19:26
* pleia2 thumbs up19:26
jeblairand mordred will hopefully throw some code at you soon :)19:27
pleia2I'll look at the past ones and fungi can error check19:27
* mordred slings code like a ...19:27
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet)19:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:27
* mordred can't finish that sentence in any useful way19:27
jeblairfinished it for you19:27
fungipleia2: best not to directly copy old ones--at least start with a copy of the steps from our documented instructions every time in case they change19:27
yolandathere are a few patches pending for review or approval from my side19:27
nibzthis week has been cool for downstream puppet because puppet-zuul/openstackci/system-config are now linked19:27
pleia2fungi: noted19:28
mordrednibz: dude19:28
* mordred notes nibz new nick approvingly19:28
yolandanibalizer, puppet-os-cloud-config project change was landed19:28
nibzsweet, so that opens the door for us to write that module, then patch the nodepool puppet module19:29
nibzI'd like to ask for reviews on the stack starting here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/184891/19:29
nibzIts the beaker tests for openstackci19:29
yolandayes, i have the changes ready for nodepool and secure.config, so that bit is missing, and well be good for openstack-ci for nodepool19:29
jeblairoh yes, i should look at those19:29
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nibzvery close to what they're doing in openstack/puppet-*19:29
nibzwe've even gotten a bit silly and we zuul-clone the system-config so changes to e.g. modules.env can get picked up19:30
nibzthanks to crinkle for doing most of the work there19:30
jeblairthat sounds like a good idea to me, but then, i'm silly19:30
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pleia2yay crinkle19:30
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jeblair#info  Sign-up if interested in virtual sprint: July 8-9, 2015 15:00 UTC https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint19:31
jeblair#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint19:31
nibzthats all I have from puppet-space19:31
pleia2never a dull moment around here19:31
fungisorry all, i need to duck out. bank/lawyer last minute stuff. ping me if you need anything and i'll read the log when i get back later today19:31
jeblairfungi: np, thanks19:31
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asselinalso, please add your name to a specific are of interest on the etherpad so we can have mini-groups of people divide and conquer19:32
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jeblairany more downstream puppet stuff? (though, i mean, we'll be talking about it a lot tomorrow)19:32
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yolandathere were some problems today with several projects, due to removal of puppet-system acl19:33
yolandai sent a change for puppet-refstack fix, there were a pair of failures also for beaker projects, not sure about it19:33
jeblairyolanda: i'm not sure what you mean19:34
AJaegerjeblair, yolanda: https://review.openstack.org/19893819:34
yolandajeblair, in project-config, 3 projects where pointing to a non-existing acl19:34
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zaroasselin: i don't see juame in the sprint.  is he gonna complete the jjb portion?19:34
anteayasome patches were merged that pointed to a non-existant acl19:34
asselinthere's one task I added to create a sample site.pp to put it all together. If anyone's interested to do that, let me know.19:34
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yolandaAJaeger, thx, +119:35
nibzasselin: i've added my name to that19:35
asselinzaro, I haven't heard from him. I've reviewed some of his patches and may just push up some fixes19:35
nibzI figure thats where I can be the most help, other than going off in a corner to poke testing19:35
asselinnibz, thanks19:35
yolandanibz, will you be able to take some time tomorrow in the os-cloud-config stuff? i can help there as well, so we get all the bits ready for nodepool19:36
asselinnibz == nibalizer ?19:36
anteayaasselin: yes19:36
nibzyes this is nibalizer, I am unfortunately not with ssh keys right now19:36
nibzso the normal irc session is locked off19:36
zaroasselin: i think there was another change required to plumb the new jjb manifest.  i can do if you like19:36
anteayakeyless nibalizer19:36
nibzyolanda: we can just do it after this meeting if you want19:36
asselinzaro, ok sure...go ahead. i'll test and review19:36
jeblairprobably ought to get a +1 from the infra ptl before adding new infra projects19:36
nibzjeblair: heh19:37
yolandanibz, i won't be staying after the meeting, too late for me, but i can review and pick up tomorrow19:37
nibzokay sure19:37
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nibzill stay up until you get on probably so can handoff19:37
yolandaah yes, you never sleep, we can talk in my morning :)19:37
nibzso anything else on poopit?19:37
* nibz out of things19:38
yolandanot from my side19:38
mordrednibz: that makes me want to say so many things ... none of them useful19:38
* Clint coughs.19:38
jeblair#topic Phabricator analysis (ttx)19:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Phabricator analysis (ttx) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:38
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asselinit would be good to put in your timezone on the etherpad..19:38
mordredlook it's a ttx19:38
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194119/19:38
jeblair#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-July/002885.html19:38
jeblair#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Phabricator19:38
jeblairi prepared some #links for you :)19:38
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ttxright, so I proposed a step on that phabricator spoec where we would do some investigation on how we could solve some of the complex openstack use cases with Phabricator19:39
ttxThat's https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194119/19:39
ttxI didn't wait for that to be approved and did that analysis last week and Monday19:40
jeblair(which i think we can merge now that mordred has seen it)19:40
ttxposted progress on infra list, and summary on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Phabricator*19:40
pleia2ttx: thank you for your thorough emails, they were great19:40
* mordred has been enjoying them19:40
ttxIt's not every day that I dive into some PHP19:40
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ttxbeen cleaning myself up three times today to wash the dye19:40
anteayasalt baths19:41
anteayaI recommend them19:41
ttxSo I guess the next step is to push at least some of that wishlist to Phabricator itself19:41
ttxsee how likely they are to include it19:41
ttxsome of it is clearly off-product from how they usually react19:42
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ttxthey could be amenable in supporting a hook point though, if we contract Phacility to do it19:42
jeblairyeah, i'm not super keen on supporting a fork19:42
jeblair(that is an understatement ^)19:43
mordredI kind of think we're at the point of being able to articulate the desire in a conversation with them19:43
anteayawhat is Phacility?19:43
mordredand potentially have enlist their help in coming up with solutinos19:43
ttxanteaya: a company selling support on Phabricator19:43
jeblairbut maintaining plugins for well-defined extension points is more palatable19:43
ttxthey happen to control upstream pretty tightly19:43
anteayattx we need to get a contractor to get code upstream?19:43
zarohave we talked to any of our friends @ wikimedia whether would want to do the same things?19:43
mordredanteaya: nope, we can write the code if we want19:43
pleia2(but we don't want to write php)19:44
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ttxmordred: but they have to the right to refuse it if it's not part of their vision for Phab19:44
mordredthere is that - but also, we could probably have a non-contract discussion with them first19:44
pleia2mordred: nods19:44
ttxYes, we should start contacting them19:44
mordredand then figure out if it would be helpful to have a contract with them for them to accelerate things19:44
mordredmight or might now19:44
ttxI've seen them react ... more gracefully to requests from wikimedia than from John Doe19:44
anteayathem being wikimedia or them being phabricator?19:45
mordredthem being phacility19:45
mordredI mean, right now we19:45
ttxso maybe they could be receptive to our requests19:45
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ttxDo we know anyone on that group, beyond the people at Wikimedia ?19:45
mordredI do not19:45
ttxand who should lead that contact with them ? I guess I can do it those days, but startign Sept I'll be more busy19:46
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mordredttx: if  you can start it off and get the ball rolling, I can pick it up when you get busy19:46
ttxok, deal19:46
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ttxGeneral comment, the code is pretty solid19:47
mordredyah. I agree with that19:47
mordredI thin kthey've done a good job19:47
ttxbut they seem to have expanded scope much faster than they tied loose ends. Reminds me of another project19:47
ttxfor example their API is a big mess19:47
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mordredtheir API is clearly not the thing they find the most important19:48
ttxReading https://secure.phabricator.com/T5873 made me a sad panda19:48
ttxthat is all. I'll take the action of turning that wiki page into a set of Phabricator bugs and lead the charge from there19:49
mordredand I'll help19:49
mordredwhile we're on the topic ...19:49
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mordredis there anyone around who wants to poke at making cauth speak openid?19:49
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mordredthat's on my TDL and I have not made it far enough to working on it19:49
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jeblairmordred: link to cauth?19:50
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jeblairEmilienM: ^ know anyone who might be interested in that?19:51
mordredjeblair: looking19:51
zaroi don't think i'm the best person for this job, but if there are no takers then i am willing to give it a try. will need help though.19:52
mordred#link https://github.com/enovance/cauth19:52
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EmilienMjeblair: yes, mhu19:52
EmilienMjeblair: we should contact him and see19:52
jeblaircool, let's do that19:53
mordredit's written in pecan/wsme - and we have openid consumer support in pecan/wsme in storyboard - so there should be directly leveragable code19:53
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* mordred will hand him a very plump chicken in exchange for openid support that works against launchpad19:53
jeblairthis is the perfect transition to...19:53
jeblair#topic Storyboard Development19:53
*** openstack changes topic to "Storyboard Development (Meeting topic: infra)"19:53
EmilienMmordred: he likes chicken.19:54
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jeblairpersia: ^ i think you added this to the agenda?19:54
persiaI have been working with a firm that uses Storyboard in production, and with the changes in upstream maintenance, I have convinced them to assign a couple people to work on things.19:54
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persiajeblair: Yes, sorry, I fail at wiki editing19:54
pleia2persia: wow, nice19:54
tchayposomeone uses storyboard in production?19:54
persiaWhat I don't know is the best way for them to be productive WRT reviews, etc.19:54
yolandapersia, i'm glad to hear that19:54
anteayapersia: are they on irc?19:54
persiaNote that this is *entirely separate* from any discussion about whether OpenStack uses Storyboard.19:54
ttxanteaya: yes19:54
persiaanteaya: yes.19:54
yolandai saw some new changes, i'm happy for that19:54
tchaypothis is exciting19:55
greghaynestchaypo: technically I think we do too :)19:55
ttxI wonder if we should not spin it out of Infra and back to stackforge (only half kidding) and reset core there19:55
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ttxunless it's still a contender19:55
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persiaI don't care where it lives, but I'd prefer to be able to use gerrit, etc.19:56
jeblairi wrote that message recently about the future of jjb, which, if we proceed with my zuulv3 proposal, we would no longer use in openstack-infra19:56
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jeblairi think a lot of the ideas about how to handle that transition could apply here too19:56
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ttxjeblair: rigth, I just want to not block them. jjb still has some infra people caring for it19:57
jeblairin general, i think openstack's primary interest in storyboard at this point in maintenance of our production system, and when we switch to maniphest, we won't care that much, but still would be happy to help it succeed19:57
ttxok. I expect them to fork it if it becomes too painful anyway19:58
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jeblairindeed, always an option :)19:58
fungiback just in time for the end of the meeting!19:58
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ttxI just think we should adjust cores19:58
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ttxbecause the current set is pretty limited19:58
jeblairyeah, i think we can onboard new cores, and if needed, create a development branch, etc19:58
ttxespecially if you factor in my ability to review JS19:59
jeblairso if folks have suggestions for new cores, run them by me and i can look at adding them19:59
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jeblairand it's time, thanks all!20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  7 20:00:11 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-07-07-19.02.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-07-07-19.02.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-07-07-19.02.log.html20:00
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russellb.... o/20:01
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* mestery lurks20:01
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anteayattx: they are gathering, I'll stop taking your time20:02
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ttxjgriffith, lifeless, mordred, dtroyer, jeblair, jaypipes: around ?20:02
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  7 20:03:02 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:03
ttxAlright! Our agenda today:20:03
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:03
* edleafe is also lurking20:03
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ttxAnd now for something completely different... a non-consensual topic20:03
ttx#topic Add neutron to starter-kit:compute20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Add neutron to starter-kit:compute (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19643820:03
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ttxI'll timebox this one to 30min so that we have time left to cover other items20:03
ttxI summarized my view on this issue in a comment on the review this morning.20:04
* jaypipes requests that we put this particular vote off for 2 weeks.20:04
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ttxBasically I think the only viable option is to accept this, or consider that the situation is so broken that we can't even recommend a "starter kit" that is not a dead end20:04
russellbnot sure what else to add other than what i've said on the review20:04
ttxjaypipes: what will 2 weeks give us ?20:04
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jaypipesttx: a chance to get the updated networking guide docs done.20:04
annegentleso my sense is this question is one docs has wrestled with for years now.20:04
dtroyermy problem is just the timing…it feels bad to add a dangling pointer to something that isn't there (or finished?)20:04
russellbIMO, a tag like this should be guiding doc work, not be gated on it20:04
ttxjaypipes: in the mean time we recommend a dead end though20:05
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mordredI agree with russel20:05
dougwigjaypipes: the content is done.  the install guide tweak is behind their conversion to RST.20:05
sdagueI do think there is a timing issue, because if we're recommending the 4b from the network guide20:05
mordredI agree with russellb20:05
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markmcclainrussellb: ++20:05
mestery+1000 russelb20:05
lifelessttx: o/20:05
annegentleAnd, even in the Ops Guide, we made decisions about what architectures we documented.20:05
flaper87russellb: ++20:05
lifelesssorry for late - this is ECHILD time20:05
dhellmannrussellb: ++20:05
annegentleand I agree, we need to ensure we know when the tag will be applied.20:05
annegentleheh on ECHILD20:05
sdaguethen we get people pointed at the install guide, and it's radically different from that, it causes pain and tears20:05
annegentlethey are very error prone20:05
annegentleno tears20:05
dhellmannsdague: one of the justifications given for even having a tag like this was to drive changes elsewhere, including documentation20:06
annegentlethere's no crying in OpenStack20:06
russellbi don't see the tag itself as something people are consuming, it's guiding work that people consume, like docs20:06
dougwigannegentle: lol20:06
maishskannegentle: depends on who you ask ;)20:06
edleafeannegentle: oh, no - there's lots of crying!20:06
jgriffithI have a question... I thought one of the proposals regarding Big-Tent wsa competing projects?20:06
russellband this sends a clear signal about what should be documented in starter docs20:06
mordredI think it's important for us to show leadership and intent. people have been asking for clarity from that from us for a while - and saying clearly "neutron is what we expect" should not be particularly controversial20:06
russellbmordred: +120:06
mesterymordred: well said sir20:06
jgriffithIMHO nova-net wins that competition in many cases20:06
sdaguedhellmann: ok, so then there should be an updated patch to the tag doc right?20:06
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maishskmordred +120:06
sdaguebecause right now all this is is an add of a project20:06
mordredjgriffith: we need to be clear taht this is not a competition between nova-net and neutron20:06
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flaper87As others have also said in the review, one of the points of this tag is to not only show where to start from but also be the bases for something bigger20:07
sdaguewith no background information, no additional context of "we mean in this kind of configuration", etc.20:07
flaper87it also shows where we are headed20:07
mordredjgriffith: nova-net is not what we want going forward, it just happens to still exist because $reasons20:07
dhellmannsdague: are you objecting to adding the project, or that the patch to the governance repo is somehow incomplete?20:07
jgriffithmordred: well, I kinda think for some it's become exactly that20:07
sdaguedhellmann: incompleteness20:07
mordredjgriffith: right. we need to be much clearer about that20:07
jgriffithmordred: well, maybe the collective "we" in the room, but not myself20:07
dhellmannsdague: ok, I may be able to support that20:07
jgriffithI'd be thrilled to see nova-net live on forever20:07
mordredjgriffith: yes where we == the TC20:07
jgriffithmordred: but I see you're point20:08
markmcclainI'm still trying figure out what incompleteness there is? do we really thing there are folks waiting around just for us to pass this tag?20:08
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ttxflaper87: I agree starter kit is about growing after. Pointing people to an evolutionary dead end sounds counter productive at best20:08
mordredjgriffith: I totally respect you on that ... and honestly, i do not think the TC needs to say "nova-net should be deleted"20:08
sdaguebecause I actually think that recommending http://docs.openstack.org/networking-guide/deploy_scenario4b.html as the starter kit is a good idea20:08
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sdaguebut this patch doesn't do that20:08
mordredI think the TC needs to say "neutron is the focus and the future"20:08
mordredsdague: I think the tag doesn't get that specific20:08
flaper87mordred: ++20:08
jgriffithmordred: yeah, so I'm cool with moving forward, but what would be interesting is going back to the idea of the neutron-on-training-wheels20:08
sdaguemordred: however, the background document did20:08
dtroyermordred: ++  but there might also need to be a Neutron starter kit…it's that big20:09
jgriffithie helper script to just let you set it up EZ/PZ20:09
mordredsdague: I also think the starter guide should say "floating ips are a bad idea" - but the tag isn't quite that fine-grained :)20:09
sdaguelike it called out nova multihost20:09
dougwigjgriffith: have you read 4b from the deploy guide?20:09
mordredsdague: I'd be more than happy to amend the patch to put more info into the backgroudn doc20:09
jgriffithdougwig: I'll look at it again now... sorry, I have not20:09
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dougwigjgriffith: it's intended to be ez mode.20:09
mordredsdague: because there isa  very clear "this is what you should look at to get started" part of this20:09
sdaguemordred: I'd be happy with +1ing this with the more specific background and guidance with the configuration20:09
mordredannegentle: do we ahvea  new name for 4b yet? :)20:09
annegentledougwig: one Q I wanted to ask you is whether you saw a docs spec that says the install guide will document "provider networks with Linux bridge" I haven't seen that yet.20:10
mordredsdague: awesome20:10
jgriffithdougwig: intedend or is :)20:10
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* mordred will take on that as a task for next week if everybody is good with that?20:10
dougwigannegentle: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/19107720:10
russellbjgriffith: is20:10
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annegentlemordred: 4b = provider networks with Linux bridge20:10
flaper87lets just be careful not to turn the tag in documentation20:10
flaper87just saying20:10
annegentledougwig: ah it hasn't landed yet20:10
mordredflaper87: totally20:10
russellb4b is just provider networks20:10
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annegentlerussellb: 4a is OVS20:10
jaypipesOK, so I thought starter-kit:compute was all about having a *simple* way to get compute resources up and running. One of the suggestions that I think sdague had on the review was to have TC members (preferably not Neutron devs) go and follow the install guide with neutron and see whether that "simple to install and get up and running for compute" objective was actually the case. This is the reason I was asking for a20:11
jaypipesdditional time. So I could go do that.20:11
sdagueand I'd be even happier if the install guide lead with the 4b scenario20:11
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dougwigannegentle: right, but based on conversations with the docs folks, i'm not expecting any surprises there.20:11
mordredsdague: ++20:11
edleafeIs the intent for "starter kit" to be a base to grow from? If so, then it should include Neutron20:11
dhellmannhmm, I don't see anything in the tag doc that refers to specific parts of the install guide.20:11
ttxI like the idea of pointing people to ez-neutron (a.k.a. 4b) which is not as much of an evolutionary dead end20:11
annegentlethe way we handled it in the Ops guide was "these features are supported by the example arch but are optional"20:11
annegentle#link http://docs.openstack.org/openstack-ops/content/example_architecture.html#example_architecture-nova20:11
mordrededleafe: I would hate for the starter kit to get you to a thing we want you to delete20:11
maishskjaypipes: that is an awesome idea!20:11
dhellmannit seems like any changes outside of the governance repo should follow from this change20:11
mesteryjaypipes: With regards to simple, I believe sdague also followed the guide and indicated cinder shoudl be removed if that was the case20:11
mesterygiven simplicity and all20:11
annegentleso even there, a dashboard is optional20:11
ttxedleafe: yes it is a starter kit, not an endgame20:11
mordredttx: ++20:12
edleafemordred: well, yeah20:12
jaypipesmestery: perhaps that would indeed be the case.20:12
mesteryjaypipes: Yup, that's my point20:12
jgriffithmestery: really?20:12
dougwigarguably we can point ALL people at 4b, since adding OVS or tenant networking later is straightforward.20:12
mesteryWhy stop with neutron?20:12
jgriffithmestery: hmm... ok20:12
jaypipesmestery: I'm not bashing Neutron, BTW. I'm asking for a little time to do some research.20:12
mesterySurely other things are complex20:12
edleafettx: precisely. That's why neutron should be included20:12
lifelessso yeah I'm totally confused here20:12
mesteryjgriffith: Really20:12
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sdaguedhellmann: well, there was in the initial patch20:12
dhellmannsdague: but we didn't approve that one, right?20:12
jgriffithmestery: I hardly see the comparison but that's fair enough20:12
annegentleand I don't know if it's still true, but for a while you couldn't install swift + dashboard only, you had to have identity, compute, and images iirc20:12
lifelessAIUI start-kit was -explicitly- 'not a scaled-down poc but a platform for learning'20:12
jgriffithmestery: if vgcreate is too difficult remove it20:12
sdagueyes, we did, it apparently was changed20:12
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edleafemestery: because nova-network is a dead-end20:13
mesteryjgriffith: lol, it's all about perspetive my friend20:13
annegentleso we also need to ensure the technical feasibility of this use case20:13
jgriffithmestery: indeed20:13
mordredsdague: I don't really see where to put a mention of 4b in the tag doc - can we connect after the meeting and kibitz on that?20:13
russellbtechnical feasibility - this is very commonly used20:13
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lifelessSo IMO it still should be 'the minimum needed to get compute', not 'the recommended components everywhere'20:13
mordredlifeless: right - but we don't want to teach someone one set of skills, then have those be totally unapplicable to a bigger deployment20:13
markmcclainI'm still not certain why we need to document 4b specifically?20:13
lifelessmordred: but we know we're going to do that20:14
markmcclainseems that the tag and the specifics of the starter should be decoupled20:14
lifelessmordred: sql auth skills are not applicable to SAML federation20:14
flaper87lifeless: it's the minimum needed to get compute and grow from there20:14
annegentlemarkmcclain: as an api-compat way forward (I think)20:14
markmcclainwe don't prescribe that nova should kvm20:14
lifelessflaper87: it was *explicitly* framed as *not-that* last I read it.20:14
dougwigcan we dial back the rhetoric.  nova-net, if useful for you, is not a dead end as long as someone wants to maintain it.  and dissing one team vs another is also not productive.   does 4b make things easy enough for everyone?  if so, it's has many more branching out possibilities than nova-net.20:14
markmcclainthe docs just point you that direction20:14
zaneblifeless: it's supposed to be a starting point that people can expand from20:14
mordredlifeless: that's a bit different than "the conceptual model of nova-net and neutorn are completely different"20:14
ttxlifeless: it's name "starter" though20:14
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ttxso it's as explicit as it gets20:15
flaper87lifeless: mmh, I actually remember it differently. I remember we saying this is a gate to compute with openstack20:15
mordreddougwig: I agree - I do not think we need to ditch anything or delete anything or make anyone feel bad about what they want20:15
sdagueright, and I agree the growth path from nova-net to neutron is not very clear, I think there are a lot of comments in there about that in the review20:15
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zaneblifeless: "[W]e'd like this to be a solid bit of 'seed corn' from which a larger and richer OpenStack deployment can be built out over time." <- doesn't get more explicit than that20:15
flaper87with nova-net it'd be: "This is how you can get an openstack playground that you'll likely trash"20:15
jaypipesAgain, I ask... can we please just give this vote another week so some of us can do some research?20:16
sdagueso I'm happier with a simple neutron scenario that a user could expand more naturally, which I think we now kind of figured out with 4b20:16
mesteryflaper87: When you put it that way20:16
lifelesszaneb: ok,  I missed that getting in20:16
flaper87mestery: :D20:16
mordredjaypipes: ++20:16
ttxjaypipes: I'm fine with deferring. I just don't want us to be stuck too long20:16
mordredjaypipes: I believe the patch wants a rev as well20:16
flaper87jaypipes: I'm good with deferring too20:16
lifelessbut its internally inconsistent20:17
jaypipesjust one week...20:17
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flaper87and the patch needs to be updated anyay20:17
lifeless'All projects must be a required to put a persistent VM on the network.'20:17
mordredttx: I'm going to work with sdague on seeing if we can get his converns met in the patch20:17
sdaguedelay is fine as well, it might even mean that we can have the install guide docs going forward20:17
lifeless'The projects in this tag should make it easy to add new OpenStack projects into such a deployment over time.'20:17
lifelesswe can't have both, today.20:17
DavieyWill there be a starter-kit:neutron?20:17
lifelessif nova-net dies we can.20:17
jgriffithI'm with jaypipes if even "I" can get it setup and actually working this time I'll gladly upvote20:17
sdagueannegentle: any idea what the timeline is for the install guide conversion to rst?20:17
annegentlewhat if for this release it's nova-net, and next release it's neutron, is that acceptable as long as the provider network scenario will offer API compat20:17
markmcclainjaypipes: I don't see what a week will yield?  The other services don't have a prescriptive formula... we just save you need them in a starter20:17
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sdagueannegentle: they aren't API compat20:17
jgriffith1 week... or even 1 day to convince myself20:17
annegentlesdague: by release date, Install Guide is not relevant until release. So for now we have the Install Guides we have.20:18
mordredttx: fun story - I can't WIP this patch :)20:18
mesterymarkmcclain: +100020:18
sdaguethat is part of the challenge20:18
zaneblifeless: if you considered nova-net a separate project to Nova, there'd be no conflict20:18
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lifelesszaneb: indeed!20:18
ttxmordred: fun heh. You ened to prefix title with [WIP]20:18
annegentlesdague: ohh.20:18
annegentlesdague: is there any API compat?20:18
russellbi'm surprised it's taking this for people to actually go try to use neutron20:18
russellbbut ok20:18
mordredannegentle, sdague: they aren't even conceptually compatible. the way you use them is very different20:18
dougwigannegentle: the upgrade is *not fun*.  the sooner we can stop leading people that way, the better.  IMO.20:18
annegentlesdague: because, what if "seed corn" for some is "give me an interop cloud"20:18
lifelesszaneb: if Nova considered nova-net a separate project we'd have had very different discussions over the last 18 months20:18
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* mestery shrugges20:18
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mordredannegentle: the differences in nova-net and neutron are giant20:18
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* flaper87 helps mestery shrug20:18
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mordredannegentle: MUCH bigger than the other interop differences20:19
russellba week isn't harmful20:19
jgriffithmordred: +120:19
lifelessFWIW I'm a huge fan of getting folk on Neutron from the start20:19
jaypipesmarkmcclain: it will ease my mind, that's all.20:19
jaypipesI don't want to vote no on this.20:19
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lifelessI also want to deliver the thing sdague reports the operators meetup asked for20:19
zaneblifeless: I submit that you are arguing semantics at this point ;)20:19
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lifelesszaneb: aren't all arguments semantics?20:19
lifelesszaneb: :)20:19
ttxAlright, so mordred will work on a new patch, Jay will spend some time convincing himself, and we plan to have that back in two weeks20:20
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zanebyes, but not all arguments are _only_ semantics ;)20:20
Davieymordred: Has a gap analysis been drafted?20:20
ttxalthough I'll likely not be around in two weeks thanks to OSCON20:20
jaypipestteggel: one week is fine.20:20
mesteryA gap analysis?20:20
russellbDaviey: several of them20:20
mesteryLast year20:20
jaypipesoops... ttx.20:20
mesteryMany times20:20
mesterymany many times20:20
dougwiga gap analysis is necessary for a nova-net vs neutron deprecation discussion.  the starter-kit is not that.20:20
ttxIs my summary ok with everyone ?20:20
markmcclainjaypipes: ok.. I just don't see the state of world shifting in meaningful way20:20
jaypipesttx: I think one week is fine.20:21
sdagueright, the starter kit is a different thing20:21
mordredttx: ++20:21
flaper87there seems to be consensus that we should defer to next week20:21
ttxjaypipes: one week it is20:21
flaper87lets do it20:21
mesteryIf we can't agree on the starter kit thing here, deprecation seems pretty unlikely20:21
flaper87ttx: it does20:21
russellbworks for me20:21
ttx#agreed mordred will work on a new patch, Jay will spend some time convincing himself, and we plan to have that back in one week20:21
mordredmestery: yah man20:21
jaypipesmarkmcclain: the state of my world can change with an afternoon of me digging into a couple things. thanks for your understanding. :)20:21
sdagueannegentle: so, is there no way to update the kilo guide to include this scenario?20:21
ttxdidn't expect us to come to a conclusion this week anyway20:21
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dougwigfor anyone non-neutron that digs into 4b and has issues, PLEASE get that feedback to us somehow.20:21
annegentlesdague: nor all the prior install guides and Ops Guide that have nova-net20:22
sdagueannegentle: why?20:22
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annegentlesdague: I mean, of course anything is a matter of code. But wow man. That's a lot to ask.20:22
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mordredI'm fine with it being forward looking patches for the future20:22
sdagueok, I just get concerned with "hey, this is the starting point you should check out" and then no install guide support to get them there20:22
annegentlesdague: let's rewrite all the code releases so that nova-net isn't even possible to install and config?20:23
annegentlesdague: I mean come on.20:23
russellbsdague: right, i think this is the clear signal about what the docs should cover though ..20:23
russellbjust a different way of looking at what the purpose is here20:23
sdaguerussellb: sure20:23
annegentlesdague: you could add a third path of course, we have ways to back port and publish20:23
russellbus playing in our governance repo doesn't automatically get people using our prescribed set20:23
sdagueannegentle: right, that's what I mean, a 3rd path through the install guide20:23
annegentlesdague: but that would take away from other work and seems a bit disruptive for little gain when we can just wait another release20:23
russellbhas to be "implemented"20:23
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sdagueannegentle: ok20:23
ttxAlright, I propose we move on20:24
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sdaguebtw, if TC members haven't recently, I'd highly recommend actually walking a manual install through the install guide20:24
annegentlesdague: ++20:24
mordredsdague: ++20:24
ttxfeel free to continue that discussion over the week, irc ML review etc20:24
sdagueit's pretty eye openning what we ask of folks20:24
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ttxI bet it is.20:25
Rockygsdague: ++20:25
lifelesssdague: clockwork orange eye opening style20:25
lifelesssdague: to be precise20:25
annegentleimagine testing it with packages that aren't quite done. across 3-4 distros20:25
annegentleon deadline20:25
russellbrecommending manual install is a bit of fail on our part, anyway, but that's probably another discussion20:25
jgriffithsdague: I sadly go through this at least a couple of times each release cycle20:25
annegentlerussellb: heh. had that discussion many times20:25
zanebsdague: as I understood it, the original purpose of this tag was for the TC to endorse what it thought should be front and center in the install guide. so I agree with russellb that there is no need to wait until after the fact20:25
ttxthere is a reason why those automatic installers are so pretty20:25
ttxwhi is a nice segway to our next topic20:25
sdaguezaneb: yep, like I said, I'm +1 with the specific guidance, and will be more happy when the docs catch up20:26
ttx#topic Add Compass to OpenStack Projects20:26
*** openstack changes topic to "Add Compass to OpenStack Projects (Meeting topic: tc)"20:26
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19697320:26
ttxI think Jay and Sean summarized my concerns about this one well20:26
ttxFirst there is the question of being a generic deployment framework -- this is not limited to OpenStack, in fact one could argue that there is nothing OpenStacky about it20:26
wshaoHi, I did reply to Sean and Jay's comments.20:26
ttxdoesn't use any Oslo lib, uses Flask, duplicates recipes...20:26
ttxSecond, I'm not sure we can consider Compass to follow the 4 opens, or at least not yet20:27
ttxThey only had one IRC meeting, and that was last week20:27
wshaottx: could you see my comments20:27
ttxThere is not a single thread on the dev ML, beyond Rocky's announcement of the project in 201320:27
RockygWow, time flies!20:27
RockygSo, when compass started, there weren't recipes they could use.20:28
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ttxthat said, it *is* shiny :)20:28
ttx while it feels like an interesting project, I just have trouble seeing the OpenStack in it.20:28
Rockygmaybe, it could now use ones in the openstack repo20:28
lifelessso there seem to be two concern in the reviews20:28
lifelessone - overlap20:28
wshaoIt is openstack centric even though I point out the extensibility part of it20:28
lifelesstwo - four opens20:28
lifelessI think the four opens is a concern. That needs fixing20:28
wshaolifeless: overlap with TripleO?20:28
RockygSo, working on the 4 opens20:28
lifelessThe overlap one though - we opened the door. We don't get to complain that folk want to walk through.20:29
Rockygand there are projects accepted that don't seem to have a team yet.20:29
sdagueRockyg: which examples are those?20:29
ttxlifeless: the project setill needs to be connected to our mission though ?20:29
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ttxlifeless: but yeah, I see what you mean20:29
mordredttx: it seems to be connected to our mission20:29
lifelessttx: it is no less connected than pbr :)20:29
RockygHey, you just said you want easier to install openstack ;-)20:29
ttxmordred, lifeless: fair enough20:29
mordredI agree with lifeless, I dont' think that can be a "go away" - but the four opens is a real important thing20:30
Rockygsdague: looking for projects...20:30
sdagueyeh, my concern is about the openness20:30
mordredsdague: ++20:30
dhellmannyeah, that's much more important to me than overlap -- allowing overlap was supposed to be one of the points of the big tent change20:30
sdaguedhellmann: ++20:30
wshaoIt is good to have an alternative install approach (e.g, image-based vs script-based deployment). TripleO is the former, Compass is the latter.20:30
ttxmordred: for example, absence of reuse of any oslo lib falls into lack of cooperation / open development part20:31
jaypipeslifeless: we *do* absolutely get to consider overlap of RESTful APIs.20:31
ttxmordred: and will make up a poorer operational experience ?20:31
zanebtrademark search: 1769 Records(s) found20:31
lifelessjaypipes: why?20:31
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* jaypipes also mutters something about including static artifacts in a source repo like https://github.com/stackforge/compass-core/tree/master/mibs20:31
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jaypipeslifeless: because if you have two OpenStack Compute APIs, you're done for.20:32
ttxjaypipes: and more commits than reviews: more commits than reviews: http://stackalytics.com/report/contribution/compass-core/9020:32
ttxand a pretty weird tree of versions: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/compass-web/tree/20:32
wshaottx: we allow installers to use  openstack community chef cookbooks, and there is plan to use Ironic for OS provisioning phase of deployment20:32
lifelessjaypipes: I understood allowing competition to be one of the main enablers of the big tent20:32
ttxwshao: do you have plans to use cookbooks from the chef-openstack project ? Or keep your forked ones ?20:32
russellbjaypipes: yeah, the "lower" in the stack, the more sensitive i am to that kind of overlap20:32
lifelessjaypipes: so that the TC no longer has to pick the Right One.20:32
ttxlifeless: forking the cookbooks falls into my "useless diplication" doctrine20:33
mesteryrussellb: ++20:33
lifelessjaypipes: I'm not saying we can't decide to care20:33
wshaonote on the commit/review stattisic:  we were developing on dev/experimental branch and moved to master recently.20:33
jaypipeslifeless: APIs were *never* intended to have duplication.20:33
ttxwshao: oh, that explains it. Thanks20:33
russellbwe should definitely care.20:33
jaypipeslifeless: in fact I remember specifically saying that API duplication was a major concern, much more than competing implementations of an API.20:33
flaper87I'm really worried about the community aspect here. We may want to wait until the project is more integrated w/ openstack20:33
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flaper87jaypipes: ++20:34
ttxwshao: do you have any plans for more cooperation with openstack projects (think horizon, oslo, chef-cookbooks, etc.) once you are in ?20:34
wshaottx: we plan to use community ones.20:34
dhellmannjaypipes: is there specific API duplication you're worried about here?20:34
lifelessjaypipes: ah ok20:34
lifelessjaypipes: I was talking competing implementations of same API20:34
ttxwshao: if yes, I don't see anything blocking, it may just be too soon20:34
lifelessjaypipes: not variants of the API20:34
* dhellmann wonders who the "root" reviewer is on http://stackalytics.com/report/contribution/compass-core/9020:34
RockygWe're hoping that moving it to OpenStack gets more people interested.  But that also means we *have* to use dev to get people to know it's out there.20:34
wshaothe forked ones will be phased out. recently, we added support for Ansible based install20:35
lifelessjaypipes: [though its hard to decouple those]20:35
jaypipesdhellmann: ehm, yep. Things like GET /users is a pretty clear overlap ;)20:35
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jaypipesdhellmann: https://github.com/stackforge/compass-core/blob/master/compass/api/v1/api.py#L6320:35
dhellmannjaypipes: is it the same name doing something different, or is it reproducing keystone?20:35
DavieyThe wikipage is unclear to me, is it currently Cobbler centric - or is there a strong desire to switch to Ironic as the bare metal provisioning tool?20:35
wshaottx: one we are in, we will work with chef-cookbooks, and Ironic for the near term20:35
jaypipesdhellmann: doing something different.20:35
flaper87Rockyg: to me, that needs to happen asap (integration with the rest of the community)20:35
lifelessdhellmann: for installers there's a bootstrap problem20:35
dhellmannjaypipes: ok, so what's the problem?20:35
lifelessdhellmann: if you depend on keystone, you have to install it first, but how do you do that?20:35
dhellmannlifeless: yes, I've installed software before, thanks20:36
Rockygflaper87: agreed.  It's a matter of beatin^^^^^training them to sue the mailing list20:36
lifelessdhellmann: so I think you'll find that the world splits into two categories - those that do what tripleo did20:36
lifelessdhellmann: and everyone else.20:36
jaypipesdhellmann: so you're saying you want Keystone's GET /users API to return one thing and Compass' GET /users API to return a completely different set of data?20:36
wshaojaypipes: our current auth model is primitive, keystone integration not done yet, due to resource constraints20:36
ttxMy take on this is they should engage more with our community and behave more like an openstack project before they can apply. This may just be too soon.20:36
RockygOne of the reasons we did stackforge as soon as possible was to get the team using the OpenStack ci process20:36
sdagueRockyg: so, I think that needs to happen before coming into openstack, not a promiss to do it once they do20:36
dhellmannjaypipes: the urls will be different, no?20:36
flaper87Rockyg: lol, you'd be surprised to know that's a problem even in "old" OpenStack projects20:37
ttxfor example, openstack projects do not have a directory per version. We use git tags.20:37
lifelessdhellmann: and AIUI fuel and uhm thingy from dell have their own user dbs20:37
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mordredlifeless: and neither are in openstack20:37
lifelessdhellmann: so - snark aside - my point is that this is not unusual for an installer20:37
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wshaohi everyone, I want to point out that we have worked with Plumgrid, Intel , Orange, etc. they will be more interested in this project if it is moved to Big Tent.20:37
jaypipesdhellmann: but it's the same *intent* of the API call... GET /users in both systems is intended to return the system's user information. That is the overlap I am referring to.20:37
dhellmannlifeless: I wouldn't expect it to be. That's my point with jaypipes. I'm confused as to why he thinks keystone is the only project with rights to the path /users20:37
Rockyguh, last I heard, they weren't really interested in being "in" openstack?  Just associated?20:38
lifelessdhellmann: gotchya20:38
jaypipesdhellmann: other overlaps at the API functionality level include overlap with Tuskar's modeling of cluster resources.20:38
dhellmannbut they are different systems, with different user databases, right?20:38
sdagueand the fact that there is only a single person +2ing +Aing patches - http://stackalytics.com/?project_type=all&module=compass-core seems worrisome from the open perspective as well20:38
dhellmannjaypipes: that sounds like competition to me, isn't that what we wanted?20:38
dhellmannsdague: yes, that's a big concern20:38
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flaper87wshao: Rockyg FWIW, people interested in being part of OpenStack should work towards that and not sit there waiting for things to happen.20:39
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jaypipesdhellmann: if Compass used GET /accounts to refer to the *exact same functionality* that Keystone's GET /users API call, it would still be overlapping API functionality, and not something we want to encourage.20:39
mordredRockyg, sdague: yes. my concern is the open process parts20:39
flaper87wshao: Rockyg not talking about you two, obviously20:39
flaper87mordred: same here20:39
dhellmannjaypipes: ok, I think I'm missing something, so maybe we should talk about this outside of the meeting20:39
mordredRockyg, wshao: there are a few key things that need to change before I think we can safely say "yes, you are clearly part of the family"20:39
flaper87but I've yet to dive more into the projects20:39
RockygAgreed on open process is extremely important.20:39
jaypipesdhellmann: sure, sounds good.20:39
mordredthey're not terribly hard to change, and I'd personally be thrilled to see you back here when they're taken care of20:39
mordredI can't speak for the rest of the tc of course20:40
ttxOK, looks like this one needs to be further discussed on the review. Personally I think it's a bit early to be accepted, needs to behave like an openstack project for a bit20:40
mordredttx: ++20:40
sdaguettx: ++20:40
ttxI see lots of positive steps20:40
flaper87Rockyg: wshao mordred FWIW, I'm more than happy to help with guidance (if needed) on how to get there20:40
ttxlike an IRC meeting being set up20:40
jaypipesdhellmann: FTR, this same point is being brought up in Fuel's application to the openstack/ code namespace, and I specifically asked Dmitry to mention it in the commit message: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/199232/20:40
ttxand I think it's good to enagge with us early20:40
RockygCan we WIP and give the current team a couple of months to "practice" the open stuff that's not happening?  Let's get them working on Dev and meetings happening in IRC20:40
wshaoflaper87: mordred: ok, will talk to you on the details20:40
ttxI expect us to come up with recommendations as you further engage with us20:40
dhellmannjaypipes: ok, I'll review that, too20:41
ttxfor example drop those version directories from http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/compass-web/tree/ that make my release eyes bleed20:41
sdagueRockyg: that sounds like a good plan20:41
flaper87wshao: Rockyg and remember, one of the best ways to get answers is the m-l20:41
mordredRockyg: totally! sounds great20:41
lifelessI haven't checked the dependencies yet either20:41
wshaook cool.20:42
ttx#agreed Let's WIP this one and engage with Compass folks to help them behave more like an openstack project and reduce duplication where possible20:42
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RockygFantastic!  I think this will provide more incentive to make it happen.20:42
lifelessI'm happy to provide guidance too20:42
ttxOK next topic (we'll skip next topic since proposer agreed to rework her proposal)20:42
RockygThanks lifeless and flaper87!20:42
ttx#topic Apply tc-approved-release tag20:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Apply tc-approved-release tag (Meeting topic: tc)"20:42
wshaoThanks everyone!20:42
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19829520:42
ttxI realized that we actually never applied the tc-approved-release tag after we defined it.20:43
Rockygone more question....IRC for group....should it be 3openstack-compass?20:43
ttxWe just said that it would initially apply to projects that had the "integrated-release" tag20:43
lifelessRockyg: we see both, but #openstack-compass would be the most common pattern20:43
ttxSo I proposed such a change, the amended it following mark's remark20:43
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flaper87Rockyg: anytime20:43
RockygCool Thanks!20:43
ttxplease reapply votes20:43
ttxhappy to answer questions if any20:44
flaper87I've a side question on this topic. I read the tag page again and I was a bit confused on how we get other projects tagged as `tc-approved-release`. Does the request need to come from DefCore?20:44
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lifelessflaper87: from the board yes20:44
dhellmannflaper87: yes20:44
lifelessits all a bit terrible :)20:44
dhellmannlifeless: I think we worded it specifically the defcore committee, not just the board20:44
russellbwe could do it ourselves if we wanted to20:44
flaper87Can it come from other members of the tc ?20:44
flaper87Asking because I think there are other projects that could also be tagged :)20:44
ttxflaper87: we kept that intentionally vague. The tag is defined by the TC. We hinted that defcore would definitely be a good source20:44
russellbwe just said that's when we'll care20:44
lifelessdhellmann: yes, but thats a subcommittee so effectively identical20:44
russellbit doesn't really matter much unless they care to make use of capabilities in a given project20:44
ttxit's really just a process tag to solve a bylwas conundrum20:45
flaper87dhellmann: it's worded "DefCore", yes20:45
maishskjust as a side note was LBaaS also not deemed as not ready for production - or has that changed?20:45
flaper87lifeless: ^20:45
russellbotherwise tagging a project doesn't do anything useful20:45
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sdagueflaper87: it was basically just lazy evaluation on the tag20:45
ttxmarkmcclain: what about lbaas ?20:45
mordredflaper87: basically, the intent was "at some point, someone in the user community, ops or end users, is going to step up and request something be in"20:45
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dhellmannlifeless: sort of, but yeah, since defcore wouldn't use the thing just because we said so, going through them means there's actual interest20:45
jeblairlifeless, Rockyg: (yes, #openstack-* is the preferred form for freenode technical/policy reasons)20:45
markmcclainseems like the ttx: lbaas v2 is ready20:45
sdaguethere is so much in there that's not getting any defcore specification yet anyway, they have a ton of headroom before other things need to be added20:46
markmcclains/seems that the//20:46
sdagueand let it be demand driven for the trademark20:46
ttxok, got 9 yes, will approve now20:46
mordredsdague: ++20:46
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flaper87mordred: but in order for that to be in, I guess we also need to check on DefCore b/w, right?20:46
flaper87sdague: exactly my understanding20:46
russellbflaper87: for what to be in20:46
ttxapproved, thx20:46
ttx#topic Remove the 'integrated-release' tag20:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Remove the 'integrated-release' tag (Meeting topic: tc)"20:47
ttxSo, now that we actually applied the tc-approved-release tag we should be able to get rid of the legacy "integrated-release" tag20:47
ttxI proposed that in:20:47
flaper87russellb: sorry, for projects to be tagged as 'tc-approved-release'20:47
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19830220:47
RockygUh, wasn't defcore's tag interop?20:47
ttxIf you think we can't do that yet, I'd like to get a feel of what is missing, so that I can work toward that before the end of the cycle20:47
mordredflaper87: yah. I mean, right now the general vibe is not "zomg need more things"  ... it's "please stop adding more things" ... at some point that may chage20:47
sdagueRockyg: this is the super set from which defcore can select20:47
ttxRockyg: as specified in the bylaws20:47
zanebI'd like to see more of the criteria that the TC evaluated when adding projects to the integrated release split out into their own tags20:48
russellbbylaws use the name "TC approved release" - tag is named that way to clarify what it's implementing20:48
flaper87mordred: roger, that was my feeling too.20:48
RockygAh.  I don't think Defcore is too concerned, then.  they only require the interop.  The integrated is kind of a warning flag of "maybe sometime soon"20:48
russellbzaneb: same here, but i don't really see a need to keep the legacy tag anymore20:48
sdaguerussellb: ++20:48
zanebyeah, I don't see a reason not to kill it20:48
ttxzaneb: any suggestion ?20:49
russellbit's basically a dead tag, but i'm totally with you20:49
zanebjust seemed like an appropriate time to mention20:49
zanebthat replacements would be nice :)20:49
russellbtakes more work than it seems at first to drive a tag to consensus though20:49
ttxrussellb: ok, I have an idea of a tag WG to aggressively research and propose that, next topic20:49
russellbzaneb: feel free to pick something and push it :)20:49
flaper87russellb: zaneb ++20:49
russellbttx: nice20:49
zanebENOTIME :(20:49
RockygFrom a defcore perspective, that's good.  It adds some aging to it ;-)20:49
sdagueyeh, honestly API contract guaruntee levels, Upgrade models would be good ones20:49
ttxok, one more vote and we can kill the beast20:50
mordredKILL THE BEAST20:50
russellbit was a friendly beast though20:50
sdagueI'm mostly tagged out for this cycle though20:50
russellbretire it with kindness20:50
ttxtook us a year to kill it approximately20:50
russellbsdague: heh20:50
ttxthat's a tough beast20:50
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ttxalright approving in 30 sec20:50
Rockygnobody want to see the process of making tags or sausages20:50
jeblairi like that release's mission is now to serve "various components" and horizon's mission is now to serve "all openstack projects"20:51
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david-lylejeblair: will rework soon20:51
ttx#topic Workgroup reports20:51
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jeblairdavid-lyle: something about a framework, i imagine? :)20:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Workgroup reports (Meeting topic: tc)"20:51
ttxThx everyone, those horizontal patches in projects.yaml are a bit of a pain to pass, so good to be quick :)20:52
ttx* Project team guide20:52
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jeblairi still need to make publish jobs, sorry20:52
ttxDoug and I pushed a number of edits, I will continue to do so this week. So please review:20:52
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/project-team-guide+is:open,n,z20:52
ttxflaper87: do you plan to finish the open development chapter, or should someone take it over ?20:52
ttx(I think once those are in we can start publishing it and iterate from that.)20:52
lifelessmarkmcclain and I *still* haven't synced.20:53
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lifelessOTOH the constraints stuff is now into cleanup phase20:53
ttxflaper87: ?20:53
flaper87ttx: I plan to finish, sorry, this is my pre-holidays week20:53
flaper87finish it*20:53
lifelessso that huge time committment is shrinking rapidly20:54
flaper87I'll try to complete my work there tomorrow (or the  day after)20:54
dhellmannlifeless: \o/20:54
ttxflaper87: col thx20:54
johnthetubaguyso I should share that I have been trying to write up some why behind the process (right now its nova specific), but I should maybe try push that into a more cross project form: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Nova/Liberty_Release_Schedule20:54
ttx* Communications20:54
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flaper87(having a huge lag right now)20:54
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ttxjohnthetubaguy: I'll read that and see if anything is generally applicable20:54
flaper87I think we have enough material for another post but I won't have much b/w this week. annegentle ?20:55
johnthetubaguyttx: cool, its a brain dump right now, I can help with splitting that in two at a later point20:55
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ttx* Other workgroups20:56
ttxSo as I said earlier once I'm done with overhauling the release tags I might form a workgroup to proactively define other tags20:56
jeblairjohnthetubaguy: i like the nova-specific narrative referencing other sources of info; nice way to make it accessible without duplicating20:56
ttxLike find nice questions we should provide answers for, or things we exprtessed in integrated-release that we don't communicate anymore20:56
ttxif interested let me know20:56
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johnthetubaguyjeblair: thanks, yeah, trying to reference general topics where possible20:57
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ttxannegentle: anything on the comms side ? will you have bw for a post this week ?20:57
ttx#topic Open discussion20:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:57
ttxThere was a recent thread on Kolla plans for using GPLv3'd Ansible modules20:58
mesteryjohnthetubaguy: It's awesome work for sure, and defintely interested in seeing it more cross project. Thanks for that!20:58
annegentleI can do a post this week, sure.20:58
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-July/068612.html20:58
markmcclainttx: we're running low on chairs for the cross-project meeting chairs20:58
markmcclain#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting#Proposed_agenda20:58
markmcclainoops.. https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting#Chair_rotation20:58
ttxmarkmcclain: indeed. especially with me on holiday next week theoretically and traveling the week after20:58
ttxI'm fine doing the TC meeting on holiday, but not the cross-project one20:59
ttxso please add yourselves to the rotation there !20:59
ttxPTLs welcome too.20:59
markmcclainttx: I guess we know where the line is drawn :)20:59
jeblairttx: just to be clear, are we welcome to chair the meeting or join you on holiday?21:00
ttxIf you have a strong opinion on the GPLv3 kolla issue, please chime on thread. Apparently mordred was involved in that discussion somewhere21:00
ttxjeblair: both21:00
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russellbttx: count me in for the tags group21:00
jeblairaww, shucks21:00
flaper87jeblair: the later21:00
ttxIn other news, the CFP for Tokyo Summit is closing next week. Remember there is full overlap with the Design Summit this time, so any talk you give is likely to generate painful conflicts for you21:00
ttxLast words, anyone ?21:00
fungipeople give talks at that thing? ;)21:00
flaper87tahnks ? :)21:01
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flaper87or thanks21:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  7 21:01:27 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-07-07-20.03.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-07-07-20.03.txt21:01
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-07-07-20.03.log.html21:01
ttxmarkmcclain: floor is yours!21:01
markmcclaincourtesy ping PTLs: adrian_otto boris-42 bswartz david-lyle devananda dims dtroyer emilienm flaper87 gordc hyakuhei isviridov21:01
markmcclaincourtesy ping PTLs: j^2 jeblair johnthetubaguy kiall loquacities mestery morganfainberg mtreinish nikhil_k notmyname rakhmerov21:01
markmcclaincourtesy ping PTLs: redrobot SergeyLukjanov slagle SlickNik smelikyan stevebaker thingee thinrichs ttx21:01
markmcclain#startmeeting crossproject21:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  7 21:01:55 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is markmcclain. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'crossproject'21:02
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markmcclain#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting Agenda21:02
* geoffarnold lurking21:02
markmcclain#info The M-Release will be called Meiji (明治)21:02
etoewso/ ping me if needed21:02
markmcclain#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-July/068718.html21:02
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markmcclainWe're also in need of volunteers to chair this meeting in late July and August... feel free to add your name to the wiki.  Members of TC will help you get setup21:04
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markmcclain#topic Horizontal Team Announcements21:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Horizontal Team Announcements (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:04
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ttxOn the release management side, two things:21:05
ttxI summarized the final plan for stable releases last week:21:05
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-July/068400.html21:05
ttxI also started working on overhauling the release model tags, to match the new models we support in Liberty, and make it clearer what the options are:21:05
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/198789/21:05
ttxStill WIP but early comments welcome21:06
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johnthetubaguyttx: I never saw python-**client as aligned with a cycle, but I guess it is a little bit21:07
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fungias dependencies of api servers it is21:08
fungihence the reason we eventually ended up with stable branches so we could release stable updates under caps to guard against breaking changes21:08
gordcjohnthetubaguy: i think it is now since we created all the stable branches to match requirements.21:08
gordcerr that ^21:08
johnthetubaguyah, good point, I guess they are aligned now, if only in a dependency sense21:09
fungitakes us back to the whole "you can use it as a client library, but also our servers use it to talk to one another" paradigm which is somewhat irreconcilable21:09
ttxjohnthetubaguy: it used to not have stable branches at all. It now has21:09
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ttxso it's kind of linked now21:09
johnthetubaguyttx: yeah, not sure I had clocked in impact of that till just now21:10
ttxAnyway, I think we can move on21:10
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markmcclainany other announcements?21:10
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markmcclain#topic New API Guidelines ready for cross project review21:11
*** openstack changes topic to "New API Guidelines ready for cross project review (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:11
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markmcclain#link  http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-July/068682.html21:11
markmcclainetoews: listed 7 guideline ready for final review please make sure to take a look21:11
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markmcclainnot certain there's any other discussion, so we can move on21:12
markmcclain#topic Is Eventlet Best Practices ready for TC?21:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Is Eventlet Best Practices ready for TC? (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:12
markmcclain#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/154642/21:12
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markmcclainThis is not a spec in the true meaning... really a collection of best practices21:13
ttxunless there is some -1 vote on this I guess we should consider it as ready as it will ever be and approve it at TC level21:13
ttxnext week21:13
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markmcclainttx: agreed just wanted to give a final look before requesting it on the TC agenda21:13
markmcclain#topic Return request ID to caller21:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Return request ID to caller (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:14
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markmcclain#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/156508/21:14
tpatilNow, we have 2 solutions to return request id from client21:14
johnthetubaguyfor the record, I love the pattern of sharing the best practices21:14
tpatil1) Add a new method get_previous_request_id to return X-Openstack-Request-Id21:14
markmcclainjohnthetubaguy: ++21:14
tpatil2) Register a callback method with the client which will be invoked after it gets a response from OpenStack service (This solution is suggested by Brant), Thanks Brant for this wonderful solution21:14
tpatilImplementation wise, both the solutions requires minimal changes to the respective python client code base21:14
tpatilNeed feedback on which way to go21:15
RockygFYI.  There are a bunch of old BPs that seem to implement some of this stuff (and I can't find them right now)21:15
bknudsonI'm fine with either one. I'm just not a big fan of thread-local, probably due to not having used it much.21:15
RockygIt appears there was an attempt in 2014/2014 to make this happen and some of it is coded already.21:15
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tpatilI'm inclined towards Solution #221:16
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jungleboyjI would like to see this added.  Don't have a strong feeling on the implementation.21:16
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lifelessboth those options are poor21:17
lifelesscan I propose #3?21:17
lifelessreturn structured data21:17
RockygSo, the requestIDs might already exist in some/all project and only need access added to clients21:17
lifelessdon't call forward, and don't use thread locals. Neither are needed.21:17
Rockyglifeless: +121:17
lifelessI have -very- strong feelings about this.21:17
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tpatillifeless: We have considered that before, but due to compatibility issue we had to drop that idea.21:18
Rockygsyslog RFC has a structured field in the header21:18
lifelesstpatil: What compatibility issue?21:18
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johnthetubaguyI know there was talk of not breaking backwards compatibility, but I am sure we can do both somehow21:18
lifelesstpatil: we're going to end up paying for whatever API is written up forever.21:18
tpatillifeless: if we decide to return structured data from client to caller, then we would need to make several changes to the OpenStack core project using clients.21:18
lifelesstpatil: there are lots of ways to gracefully change return types - kw flags to signal, new method names - being two of the most common21:19
nikhil_k#2 has a problem that you may not get the req id even after getting a correct response from the API. you can see a 5xx in the req-id call and tell the user wrongly that request has failed.21:19
lifelesstpatil: yes, and you'll need to make several changes to the OpenStack core projects to do this anyway.21:19
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lifelesstpatil: hidden global behaviours (which #1 and #2 are) are bug-traps.21:19
nikhil_kagree, somewhat21:20
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tpatilnikhil_k: we can call callback method only if case of error > 40021:20
johnthetubaguyso the other thing, is maybe just add this in the new SDK, to speed up the deprecation of the older clients?21:20
lifelessIIRC the apis generally return a dict anyhow right ?21:20
lifelessso just add another key in the dict21:20
johnthetubaguylifeless: honestly thats what I assumed this was before I read the spec21:21
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lifeless[I may be remembering the wrong layer]. Anyhow, happy to do design closer to the code - can you point me at the specific methods being called that are a problem ?21:21
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johnthetubaguytpatil: do we have a prototype we could look at, that might get an answer quicker?21:22
tpatilfor solution #2, we can provide POC code by tomorrow.21:22
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lifelesstpatil: #2 is also not acceptable21:23
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lifelesstpatil: I'm sorry to be so hard-and-fast here, but this is fundamental plumbing affecting everything21:24
bknudsonI think a lot of keystoneclient methods return lists rather than a dict21:24
lifelesstpatil: Design the right API, and then we can figure out how to get from A to B.21:24
tpatillifeless: what's the issue with solution #2? can you please elaborate more on this?21:24
bknudsonlike list_users21:24
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lifelesstpatil: its got all the same quirks as TLS does - e.g. its going to impact client sharing across threads21:25
johnthetubaguylifeless: are you thinking about having some "response" wrapper returned that include the return value and the request-id, and maybe some flag when you create the client to say, wrap responses to include the request id, so the client opts into the new return values?21:25
lifelesstpatil: the clients have been stateless from the callers perspective so far as I understand it21:25
bknudsonif you want to implement tls in your callback then go ahead.21:25
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tpatillifeless: even in case of client sharing across threads, in the callback method we have response object which details out everything like URL and request id.21:26
lifelesstpatil: they wrap a specific auth token, but are not more stateful than that. This is a bug change.21:26
lifelesstpatil: which then forces the receiver of that callback to be globally synchronised with all threads of execution so that it knows what to do with the thing it received.21:26
nikhil_kwin 4921:26
lifelessjohnthetubaguy: for instance, yes.21:27
tpatillifeless: what's the issue with solution #1?21:27
Rockygpoint of information:  Anyone look at http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.middleware/tree/oslo_middleware/request_id.py?21:27
lifelesstpatil: stateful and thus racy: if a decorator were to make a second request before the first obtained its request id, we'd lose it21:28
johnthetubaguylifeless: I think I get your point, that approach is cleaner than suddenly having the client become secretly statefull21:28
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lifelessside effects make code hard to reason about21:28
tpatillifeless: that's right, but as a developer you shouldn't be doing that..wrong coding practice.21:28
lifelessand create traps. I'm giving concrete examples of the traps that can occur.21:28
johnthetubaguyRockyg: you mean the thing as used here: https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/etc/nova/api-paste.ini#L8821:28
lifelesstpatil: as a developer we shouldn't be creating such traps for our future selves to suffer from.21:28
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bknudsonlifeless: so what would your proposal look like? change every API to return an object that has a .request_id attribute?21:29
Rockygjohnthetubaguy: It seems Nova implemented it a while ago....21:29
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johnthetubaguyRockyg: yeah, its been working well for us, AFAIK21:29
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lifelessbknudson: there's a few ways that come to mind. One would be to yes, put an attribute on the existing responses.21:30
bknudsonwe'd probably have to provide a wrapper that gets returned.21:30
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johnthetubaguyRockyg: my life would be a living hell without it21:30
Rockygjohnthetubaguy: shouldn't this be the model for other projects?21:30
lifelessbknudson: another would be to be returning structured data that includes both the api value, and the metadata about the transaction [of which requestid is the first]21:30
lifelessRockyg: thats the other side21:31
bknudsonlifeless: can that be backwards compatible?21:31
dhellmannlifeless: some, if not all, of the clients return objects not dictionaries21:31
johnthetubaguyRockyg: I guess I had wrongly assumed most other folks had already adopted that middleware, when they could, but yeah, its the other side of the problem here21:31
bknudsonotherwise you're rewriting every application21:31
dhellmannthe rest APIs return dictionaries, but the client turns them into classes21:31
lifelessRockyg: it ensures that in the server there is a request id created and that it gets back to the client21:31
nikhil_klifeless: what other transation details? mind sharing a couple?21:31
Rockyglifeless:  sort of a linked list first key: orig, ID, second ke : caller id, new  ....last key last id, end21:32
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lifelessnikhil_k: I don't have any- I'm talking extensability. E.g. what if we wanted to know the HTTP return code (even though its a success)21:32
johnthetubaguyyeah, I think we return objects not dicts21:33
lifelessnikhil_k: like - was it a cached value21:33
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nikhil_kI see, yeah that seems relevant21:33
bknudsonI assume list() returns a list of objects21:33
lifelessis _list21:34
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lifelessit returns a list of objects21:35
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lifelessso one entirely compatible way would be:21:36
lifelessclass ListWithMeta(list):21:36
lifeless    def __init__(self, values, metadata):21:36
lifeless        super(ListWithMeta, self).__init__(values)21:36
lifeless        self.metadata = metadata21:36
bknudsonuse paste!21:36
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lifelessits 4 lines21:36
lifelessyou can live :)21:36
lifelessjust use that in _list21:37
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lifelessand stash whatever we want in .metadata - e.g. a dict with keys like request-id21:37
johnthetubaguylifeless: yeah, it seems simple enough21:37
dhellmanndoes the neutron client return objects, or does it still use simple data structures?21:37
tpatillifeless: good solution21:37
lifelessits not 10000% risk-free, but it should cover most issues21:38
bknudsonI thought the goal was to not have to make a lot of changes to the code21:38
lifelesstake a similar approach across the board at the point actual calls are made21:38
dhellmannbknudson: I think with lifeless' proposal only the client code would change, because we would be returning compatible objects that had more features21:38
markmcclaindhellmann: dictionaries21:38
johnthetubaguybknudson: it may have been, but it should really be to make life easy of the users of the client21:38
bknudsonas long as someone's willing to do the work I'm fine with it21:39
dhellmannmarkmcclain: ok, so those will need to be DictWithMeta or something21:39
bknudsonmaybe a chance to have the clients use some library code21:39
bknudsonbecause the novaclient code looks very similar to the keystoneclient code21:39
stevebakersome clients return dicts, others real objects21:39
markmcclaindhellmann: nearly all responses are in an enclosing dict, so a metavar could be added21:39
dhellmannmarkmcclain: that's another way to do it21:39
lifelessso look21:39
lifelessI understand the minimum-size-of-change argument21:40
lifelessbut we can't build robust scalable and *easy to change* code on a bed of hidden state and fragile things21:40
lifelessthe client patterns are -old-. They didn't anticipate where we are today.21:40
markmcclaindhellmann: http://paste.openstack.org/show/353082/21:41
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johnthetubaguyso I can't help thinking about adding this in the newer SDK, and just killing off the older ones, but that also feels like its cheating21:41
dhellmannlifeless: the challenge is with pushing the needed changes through all of the consuming projects21:41
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy: I think the sdk team does not really want it to be tied up in inter-server communication pattersn21:42
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lifelessdhellmann: OTOH request-id is something clients want21:42
lifelessdhellmann: I filed one of the originating bugs here to have that available to debug things easily from shell21:42
dhellmannlifeless: I agree. I'm not sure we need all of the patterns you're foreseeing, though21:43
lifelessdhellmann: (without having to manually read the raw HTTP coming back)21:43
lifelessdhellmann: sure21:43
lifelessso what do we want to achieve here?21:43
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bknudsonit would be interesting to see a sample implementation of proposal #3.21:43
lifelessthe neutron dict approach would be amenable to a new key21:43
johnthetubaguydhellmann: not sure we agreed on what to use for inter-server coms yet, but I still think end users will want the request-id21:43
lifelessbut having something consistent and usable across the board would be ideal IMO21:44
bknudsonthere's probably some APIs that don't return anything now21:44
Rockygjohnthetubaguy: ++21:44
dhellmannI've been trying to balance the needs of this one new feature with the amount of effort I know it will be to make potentially breaking changes to the way the clients work21:44
bknudsonso those would have to change to return something21:44
bknudsonit's not a problem with backwards-compat, but just the amount of work reqd to find all these and change them.21:44
bknudsonwe'll also have to find a way to get the request ID when an exception is raised21:44
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lifelessyou could start with the servers, from there identify the api calls actually made cross-process, fix just those in a consistent pattern21:45
dhellmannwe can add extra attributes to exceptions pretty safely21:45
johnthetubaguybknudson: same solution right?21:45
lifelesssame solution21:45
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bknudsonyes, it's easy to a field to an exception, but you have to also change all the code that raises exception to set the value and I don't know how much code that is21:46
dhellmannlifeless: looking at the way a lot of this code relies on base class methods, I think once they fix those to start returning enhanced objects it's going to apply to a lot of the calls21:46
johnthetubaguyso Nova can be a fun source of cross server communication, if you are looking for a place to start looking :)21:46
lifelessI'd like to be able to write a wrapper function e.g. 'call_and_log' that would make the call, log the request id, and be transparent21:46
bknudsonto add a field21:46
tpatildefinitely, it's going to be a big change though21:46
lifelessbknudson: huh, no. You only need to change the places its raised in the client, because you're adding the request id client side21:47
lifelessbknudson: much more contained21:47
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dhellmannlifeless: I think he means there may be many such places, though21:47
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lifelessdhellmann: ah. I assumed grep within a client would be fairly easy.21:47
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dhellmanneasy to find, harder to update and test21:48
dhellmannbut maybe we're getting into details we don't need to worry about right now21:48
markmcclaindhellmann: kind of seems we're headed that direction21:48
lifelessso if you look at the novaclient code21:48
johnthetubaguyI think we should prototype this, and see how bad it really is21:48
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dhellmannthis new proposal to return "enhanced" versions of the objects feels a little hacky, but I'd like to see what it really looks like21:48
johnthetubaguynova has a base resource, so it might be just adding it there21:49
dhellmannif it's really transparent, then I think it is better than the thread local solution21:49
tpatillet me work on this solution and come up with the POC code by next week21:49
RockygSounds like Nova is the code base to be the guinea pig ;-)21:49
johnthetubaguydhellmann: agreed it feels hacky, but it seems a better trade off, but I could imagine changing my mind when I saw code21:49
lifelesstpatil: cool, thank you21:49
bknudsontpatil: yes, thanks!21:50
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy: right21:50
RockygExcellent tpatil!21:50
tpatilThanks everyone21:50
markmcclaingood discussion everyone21:50
markmcclain#topic Open discussion21:50
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:50
johnthetubaguytpatil: thanks for pushing on this, its really needs doing, appreciate it!21:50
tpatiljohnthetubaguy: That's on my plate for this release from long time21:51
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markmcclain#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Travel_Support_Program21:51
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markmcclainThere's about a month left to apply, so if know candidates who this will benefit make sure they know about the deadline21:52
markmcclainAnything else for this week?21:52
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ttxVolunteers for chairing the next two weeks ?21:53
markmcclainnikhil_k will leading next week unless the wiki is stale21:53
johnthetubaguyI think I signed up for the end of the month21:53
ttxoh, right weeks after21:53
nikhil_ki am on schedule21:53
* ttx goes to bed then21:53
markmcclainjohnthetubaguy: yep see you on the list21:54
markmcclainwe do need a volunteer for the 21st21:54
markmcclainjohnthetubaguy: thanks for volunteering21:54
Rockyg21st is OSCon21:54
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johnthetubaguyhmm, its the Nova midcycle too, oops21:55
bknudsonnext week is keystone midcycle21:55
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markmcclainyeah... so if there's a topic that's of big interest and conflicts with a mid-cycle make sure to note it on the wiki21:55
markmcclainso we can get the right people here to discuss21:56
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markmcclainThanks all for joining this week.  Have a good rest of your week.21:56
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:56
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  7 21:56:40 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:56
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-07-07-21.01.html21:56
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-07-07-21.01.txt21:56
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-07-07-21.01.log.html21:56
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