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| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 7 08:01:34 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:01 |
| anteaya | hello | 08:01 |
| lennyb | anteaya: hi | 08:01 |
| anteaya | hey lennyb | 08:02 |
| anteaya | lennyb: how are things with you? | 08:02 |
| lennyb | anteaya: I dont anything special to discuss today. I am fine, thanks, my CI too. | 08:02 |
| anteaya | lennyb: what is the status of your CI? | 08:03 |
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| lennyb | currently we are commenting+voting on Neutron, and commenting as non-voting on Nova. Cinder is in silent mode | 08:04 |
| lennyb | but I will move Cinder to commenting voting | 08:04 |
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| anteaya | what is the name of your ci again? | 08:05 |
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| * lennyb 1min, we have some issues with networking or web browser | 08:06 | |
| anteaya | okay | 08:06 |
| anteaya | Mellanox CI is it not? | 08:07 |
| lennyb | yes | 08:07 |
| lennyb | for Nova and Neutron. | 08:08 |
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| anteaya | #link http://ec2-54-67-102-119.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com:5000/?project=openstack%2Fneutron&user=&timeframe=24&start=&end=&page_size= | 08:08 |
| anteaya | #link http://jogo.github.io/lastcomment/ | 08:09 |
| anteaya | well your CI shows up in both | 08:09 |
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| anteaya | can you see it | 08:09 |
| * lennyb wait, network issues. | 08:09 | |
| anteaya | okay | 08:10 |
| * lennyb struggling with browser | 08:11 | |
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| anteaya | well I just wanted you to be aware of these two tools | 08:12 |
| lennyb | anteaya: yeap, I see it. We have a quite stable CI now, thanks for the tools, I wasnt aware about jogo's. | 08:13 |
| anteaya | he just put it up over the weekend it looks like | 08:13 |
| anteaya | glad you have a stable CI now | 08:13 |
| anteaya | good work | 08:14 |
| anteaya | wanted to remind you of the common-ci solution sprint this week | 08:14 |
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| lennyb | yeah, very impressive and useful. I will probably add it to my monitoring scripts. I know about sprint. | 08:15 |
| anteaya | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints#OpenStack_Common-CI_Solution | 08:15 |
| anteaya | wonderful | 08:15 |
| lennyb | how are you nowdays? | 08:15 |
| anteaya | it would be great if you could spare a few hours and participate | 08:15 |
| anteaya | I'm at home right now | 08:15 |
| anteaya | was in Colorado last week | 08:15 |
| lennyb | I know, I will try to | 08:15 |
| anteaya | thanks | 08:15 |
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| lennyb | how was the weather? I think A/C is one of the most useful inventions :) | 08:16 |
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| anteaya | Colorado was wonderful | 08:18 |
| anteaya | at home is nice too | 08:18 |
| anteaya | I'm a big fan of shade myself | 08:18 |
| anteaya | I don't have A/C at home because I kept the trees | 08:19 |
| anteaya | many folks cut down all the trees and then put in A/C, which I don't understand myself | 08:19 |
| lennyb | I see :). We have only palm trees here and +40Celsius, so A/C is a life savers | 08:20 |
| anteaya | yup | 08:20 |
| anteaya | I can understand that | 08:21 |
| anteaya | not sure how much shade a palm casts | 08:21 |
| lennyb | I am not even sure you can define it as a 'shade' | 08:21 |
| anteaya | but from what I have seen, where they grow, shade tends to be scarce | 08:21 |
| anteaya | well it moves fast | 08:21 |
| anteaya | and there isn't much | 08:21 |
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| anteaya | well you said you didn't have anything to discuss about your CI | 08:23 |
| anteaya | and noone else has arrived | 08:23 |
| anteaya | any objection to me wrapping up? | 08:23 |
| lennyb | nope, have a nice day/night/evening | 08:23 |
| anteaya | thanks you too | 08:24 |
| anteaya | talk to you later | 08:24 |
| anteaya | and see you next week | 08:24 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 08:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 08:24 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 7 08:24:26 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:24 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-08.01.html | 08:24 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-08.01.txt | 08:24 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-08.01.log.html | 08:24 |
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| Qiming | alright, let's get started | 13:00 |
| Qiming | #startmeeting senlin | 13:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 7 13:00:26 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:00 |
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| Qiming | hi, there | 13:00 |
| haiwei | hi | 13:00 |
| lkarm | hi | 13:00 |
| yanyanhu | hello | 13:00 |
| Qiming | #topic add topics to agenda | 13:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "add topics to agenda (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:01 | |
| lixinhui | yes | 13:01 |
| Qiming | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda | 13:01 |
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| Qiming | the first thing I have in mind is about the talk proposal | 13:02 |
| Qiming | #topic Tokyo summit talk proposal | 13:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tokyo summit talk proposal (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:02 | |
| Qiming | we have a draft abstract reviewed and approved for submission | 13:03 |
| Qiming | I have tried to do this after having collected info from some of you | 13:03 |
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| yanyanhu | nice, so the abstract will be proposed for final voting? | 13:03 |
| Qiming | but ... unfortunately, I don't think the website is friendly to Chinese developers | 13:03 |
| Qiming | yes, yanyanhu | 13:03 |
| haiwei | what do you mean | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | the website? | 13:04 |
| Qiming | so I have asked lkarm to do me a favor | 13:04 |
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| Qiming | haiwei, the talk submission site is not working from China I believe | 13:04 |
| haiwei | oh | 13:04 |
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| Qiming | every time you save the presentation (abstract indeed), it is still empty | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | oh, you mean the blocking done by the 'great firewall' | 13:04 |
| lkarm | I have just submitted the proposal. We can still edit things until July 15 though if something needs to change | 13:05 |
| Qiming | maybe some APIs made from that website point to Google | 13:05 |
| Qiming | thanks, lkarm | 13:05 |
| Qiming | do you have a link ? | 13:05 |
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| Qiming | presenters please check if you have a cool photo there, :) | 13:05 |
| lkarm | https://www.openstack.org/summit/tokyo-2015/call-for-speakers/manage/4187/summary | 13:05 |
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| Qiming | em, I'm getting this: "You cannot edit this presentation" | 13:06 |
| lkarm | I think probably since I submitted it, I am the only one that can edit it? | 13:06 |
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| Qiming | maybe | 13:07 |
| lkarm | Can you not see it at all? | 13:07 |
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| Qiming | I cannot see anything except the single line of error message | 13:07 |
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| Qiming | anyway, we can check it offline | 13:08 |
| yanyanhu | I can see that page | 13:08 |
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| lkarm | Oh maybe you have to be listed as a speaker to see it | 13:08 |
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| haiwei | i got this message : You can't edit this presentation | 13:08 |
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| Qiming | I'm working with some Magnum guys on a new proposal about the interaction between Magnum and Senlin | 13:09 |
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| yanyanhu | haiwei, you are also on the speaker list | 13:09 |
| Qiming | it would be focused on managing clusters of containers | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | so I guess you can also access it | 13:09 |
| lkarm | haiwei, what email did you use to sign in. maybe i used a different one | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | I just logged in using my work email | 13:10 |
| haiwei | xu-haiwei@mxw.nes.nec.co.jp this is different from what I currently use | 13:10 |
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| haiwei | ok, leave it later | 13:10 |
| haiwei | the container topic | 13:10 |
| Qiming | the container specific topic is still under development | 13:11 |
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| Qiming | we give you all an update when we come up with something solid | 13:11 |
| yanyanhu | ok, this is will be an very attractive topic I believe | 13:12 |
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| Qiming | in case you cannot edit the current submission, please drop lkarm an email | 13:12 |
| haiwei | that means senlin will create a container type node? | 13:12 |
| Qiming | yes, haiwei, we are recruiting some university students to do that | 13:12 |
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| Qiming | the work has just get started, they are studying magnum and senlin | 13:13 |
| Qiming | let's move on | 13:13 |
| Qiming | #topic liberty-2 milestone targets | 13:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "liberty-2 milestone targets (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:13 | |
| Qiming | please check the etherpad page here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-liberty-workitems | 13:13 |
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| Qiming | we have listed the todo items there | 13:14 |
| Qiming | all targeting liberty-2 | 13:14 |
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| Qiming | most of the items are about test cases | 13:14 |
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| yanyanhu | about unit test, I think we have a good progress till now | 13:15 |
| Qiming | we have many "missing test case" bugs filed, and guys are claiming them | 13:15 |
| Qiming | great! | 13:15 |
| yanyanhu | yes, I think all bugs about test cases have been claimed :) | 13:16 |
| Qiming | hopefully, we can achieve a 90% test coverage by the end of this month | 13:16 |
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| haiwei | that will be great | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | yes, I think we have big chance ;) | 13:17 |
| Qiming | I will be focusing on the complex scaling policy implementation in the following weeks | 13:17 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, cool | 13:17 |
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| yanyanhu | that is another important feature we want to support in liberty release | 13:18 |
| haiwei | the docs seems nearly finished, Qiming | 13:18 |
| Qiming | just realized that we don't have a single line of test case for python-senlinclient ... | 13:18 |
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| yanyanhu | so maybe we should put this work item in liberty3? | 13:19 |
| Qiming | well ... the getting started docs work is still not finished | 13:19 |
| haiwei | python-senlinclient should be done in L3? | 13:19 |
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| Qiming | s/should/may have to/ | 13:19 |
| yanyanhu | about the doc, I suggest we merge the first version if it has been ready and then complete other parts step by step | 13:20 |
| yanyanhu | since it is so important for other guys to understand Senlin | 13:20 |
| yanyanhu | and provide a guide about how to contribute to this project | 13:20 |
| Qiming | okay, the patch is here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/198538/ | 13:20 |
| Qiming | and this is what it will look like when finished: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/38/198538/5/check/gate-senlin-docs/f4890a7//doc/build/html/getting_started/index.html#how-to-use | 13:21 |
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| Qiming | the current patch contains a rough structure, some drafts about profile types, profiles, and clusters | 13:22 |
| Qiming | I think that is big enough for a patch to review | 13:22 |
| Qiming | will start a new patch to work on docs related to nodes, membership, bindings, policies, etc | 13:22 |
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| yanyanhu | nice | 13:22 |
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| Qiming | hopefully this doc can be finished by this week | 13:23 |
| yanyanhu | hi, Qiming, about the wiki page | 13:24 |
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| yanyanhu | is it actually similar to the doc? | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | about the content | 13:24 |
| Qiming | yanyanhu, no, I don't think we will maintain two copies of the same content in different places | 13:25 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:25 |
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| yanyanhu | so the wiki should give a more brief description? | 13:25 |
| Qiming | on wiki page, we may want to emphasis on the high level designs and even visions | 13:26 |
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| Qiming | wiki site is not something we can do good version control | 13:26 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, understand | 13:27 |
| Qiming | I think we have covered the documentation topic | 13:27 |
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| Qiming | #topic open discussions | 13:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:27 | |
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| Qiming | something to update to you all | 13:28 |
| Qiming | yanyanhu and I visited a customer last week | 13:28 |
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| Qiming | showing them the HA work we have done before and the Senlin project we are working on | 13:28 |
| Qiming | they are pretty interested in this work | 13:29 |
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| haiwei | good news | 13:29 |
| lkarm | thats great | 13:29 |
| Qiming | they are actually from NFV (Network Function Virtualization) domain | 13:29 |
| Qiming | HA is very important a feature to them | 13:29 |
| haiwei | something similar here, a company want to do auto-scaling without using heat, our job is their desire | 13:30 |
| Qiming | so I'm invited to share what we have done and what we are doing to their world-wide community tomorrow | 13:30 |
| Qiming | haiwei, that sounds great. | 13:30 |
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| Qiming | when talking to them, we are all ears | 13:30 |
| jruano | very good news | 13:31 |
| Qiming | we need to listen to them, capture their real requirements | 13:31 |
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| haiwei | I will give a brief introduction to the openstack community team in our company :) | 13:31 |
| Qiming | thanks, haiwei | 13:32 |
| Qiming | yet another thing to update | 13:32 |
| Qiming | we have talked with some core contributors from the Magnum community | 13:32 |
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| Qiming | that is why are are proposing another talk proposal to the summit | 13:33 |
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| Qiming | it is about clustering and scaling support to Magnum, at least the infrastructure layer | 13:33 |
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| Qiming | Kubernetes and swarm each has their own solutions to scale containers | 13:33 |
| Qiming | the main question is about collecting container metrics to trigger autoscaling | 13:34 |
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| Qiming | and using LBaaS for load balancing | 13:34 |
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| haiwei | the Magnum guys said they don't want to use stack forge project , didn't they? | 13:35 |
| Qiming | there are other topics such as scheduling support | 13:35 |
| Qiming | haiwei, yes, that what we heard from Adrian | 13:35 |
| Qiming | but, things may change at unexpected paces | 13:35 |
| jruano | metric collection will probably have to happen through monasca. not sure if you can collect application level metrics from ceilometer | 13:36 |
| haiwei | so push senlin integrated is important | 13:36 |
| lkarm | so does Magnum mostly want to use the policies that senlin provides? | 13:36 |
| Qiming | jruano, I did tried to send some samples from inside a VM to ceilometer, there are tricks | 13:36 |
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| Qiming | the difficulty mainly comes from authentication, you need a user/password, you need to know where the auth_url is | 13:37 |
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| Qiming | or else, ceilometer cannot accept your request | 13:37 |
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| Qiming | lkarm, they are evaluating senlin to build their bays | 13:37 |
| Qiming | their bays are actually clusters in Senlin | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | actually, IMHO, senlin might be a good way to support Magnum Bay | 13:38 |
| lkarm | oh okay thats really cool | 13:38 |
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| Qiming | currently, they are using Heat templates to create resource groups, that is not very flexible | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | and its structure also exactly matches Senlin cluster | 13:39 |
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| Qiming | I did heard that they can use LBaaS for load-balancing, yanyanhu | 13:39 |
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| Qiming | that is a good news too | 13:39 |
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| yanyanhu | oh, sure | 13:40 |
| Qiming | that's all I have to share | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | if they can use LBaaS as the loadbalancer of Magnum dockers, some obstacle should have been cleaned by them | 13:40 |
| Qiming | yes, I think so | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | the only problem is ourself don't have enough bandwidth to cover this part | 13:41 |
| Qiming | glad to see lixinhui is starting code reviews as well | 13:42 |
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| Qiming | we need more hands | 13:42 |
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| yanyanhu | yep :) | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, about the problem we meet when sync with the global requirement, I saw you propse a new patch | 13:42 |
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| Qiming | yanyanhu, yes, working on that | 13:42 |
| jruano | i can help there... i am currently developing the resource support for magnum within heat | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | great! | 13:43 |
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| Qiming | jruano, I saw your patch, will jump onto it when it is finished | 13:43 |
| jruano | cool... i have all the code ready. just need some feedback on the current direction | 13:44 |
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| Qiming | yanyanhu, the requirements error was caused by the version of Routes package, need different environment in tox.ini to make the gate happy | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | about the patch, I think maybe we can copy requirement.txt to requirement-py3.txt and only change the line that describes the package version of routes | 13:44 |
| Qiming | jruano, I will review when you patch is submitted | 13:45 |
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| yanyanhu | and let py34 testenv depends on this new requirement-py3.txt? | 13:45 |
| Qiming | yanyanhu, tried that, it didn't work | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | ok... | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | just recalled that I saw a similar patch in other project, but can't remeber the detail | 13:45 |
| Qiming | there is a new restriction, no duplicate items in two requirements file is allowed now | 13:46 |
| Qiming | and pip is complaining when I tried different versions | 13:46 |
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| Qiming | still struggling to get things straight | 13:46 |
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| Qiming | I think I can work it out today | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | em, since this issue also blocked the version sync of oslo.db package | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | cool | 13:47 |
| Qiming | yep, that's the reason I didn't approve the requirements change so far | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | yes :) | 13:48 |
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| Qiming | anything else? | 13:48 |
| yanyanhu | another thing is about the splitting of cluster_action, maybe this is also a workitem in L3? | 13:48 |
| Qiming | well ... | 13:49 |
| Qiming | we may have to | 13:49 |
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| Qiming | it won't be a huge task to refactor the test cases then | 13:49 |
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| yanyanhu | yes | 13:49 |
| haiwei | about the presentation proposal, lkarm, does it related to the mail? | 13:50 |
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| Qiming | feel free to add this to the etherpad | 13:50 |
| yanyanhu | and jruano, maybe you can also split the test case of cluster_action into multiple ones since that could be a huge module :) | 13:50 |
| lkarm | haiwai, yes i used a different email address than the one that you posted above. i can try to change it | 13:50 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, ok | 13:50 |
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| jruano_ | sure, i am starting the test case implementation today so i will figure that out later today | 13:50 |
| haiwei | thanks , lkarm | 13:51 |
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| yanyanhu | jruano_, great ;) | 13:51 |
| Qiming | +1 | 13:51 |
| Qiming | any module larger than 2000 lines would be a headache | 13:51 |
| yanyanhu | oh, just filed a bug about using oslo_utils.timeutils to replace datetime, everyone is welcome to claim it :) | 13:52 |
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| lkarm | haiwei can you try to access now? | 13:52 |
| * Qiming wonders he should change is subscription to bugs using a different mail address | 13:53 | |
| haiwei | lkarm, it is ok now | 13:53 |
| haiwei | thanks | 13:53 |
| lkarm | good | 13:53 |
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| Qiming | haiwei, when the vote is open, don't forget to call for help for your colleagues, ;) | 13:54 |
| haiwei | of course, sir | 13:54 |
| haiwei | just remind me | 13:54 |
| haiwei | :) | 13:55 |
| Qiming | I WILL | 13:55 |
| Qiming | anything else? | 13:55 |
| yanyanhu | nope from me | 13:55 |
| Qiming | okay, thank you guys for joining | 13:56 |
| Qiming | #endmeeting | 13:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 13:56 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 7 13:56:13 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 13:56 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-07-07-13.00.html | 13:56 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-07-07-13.00.txt | 13:56 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-07-07-13.00.log.html | 13:56 |
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| asselin | #startmeeting third-party | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 7 17:00:05 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is asselin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 17:00 |
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| asselin | hi, who's here for 3rd party ci working group meeting? | 17:00 |
| mmedvede | o/ | 17:00 |
| asselin | hi mmedvede | 17:01 |
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| patrickeast | hey | 17:02 |
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| asselin | hi patrickeast | 17:02 |
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| asselin | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#7.2F7.2F15_1700_UTC | 17:04 |
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| asselin | we have two topics | 17:04 |
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| asselin | #topic Common CI virtual sprint preparation | 17:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Common CI virtual sprint preparation (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:04 | |
| asselin | #info virtual sprint is tomorrow | 17:05 |
| asselin | we got common-zuul done last week. | 17:05 |
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| asselin | have either of you switched to using it? | 17:05 |
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| mmedvede | I did | 17:06 |
| patrickeast | not yet | 17:06 |
| mmedvede | Although I still have to use a couple of patches on top of it | 17:06 |
| asselin | mmedvede, cool | 17:06 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, can you elaborate? | 17:07 |
| mmedvede | asselin: sure. We need to have ability to specify project config revision | 17:08 |
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| mmedvede | asselin: this is the patch I need: | 17:08 |
| mmedvede | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/198546/ | 17:08 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, cool yeah will take a look today | 17:08 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, we should have something like that for each of the components | 17:09 |
| mmedvede | asselin: it also seems that project revision passthrough should be added to the rest of downstream puppet modules | 17:09 |
| mmedvede | +1 | 17:09 |
| asselin | mmedvede, +1 | 17:09 |
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| mmedvede | In a similar note, zuul_scheduler does not have revision parameter for zuul repo | 17:10 |
| mmedvede | I might submit the patches during sprint | 17:10 |
| asselin | mmedvede, yes | 17:10 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, I do want to focus on the remaining components for the sprint. | 17:11 |
| asselin | mmedvede, currently that's nodepool and JJB | 17:11 |
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| mmedvede | asselin: question - are we going to keep "thinning out" system config more after sprint? E.g. we still have to maintain some copies of system-config code. | 17:12 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, which parts of system config do you still need? | 17:12 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, the goal of the sprint is so that 3rd party ci can be setup w/ as little of system-config as possible.... | 17:13 |
| asselin | mmedvede, also the scope of the sprint is to focus on the spec:http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/openstackci.html | 17:13 |
| mmedvede | One example is system-config/modules/openstack_project/manifest/jenkins.pp still has jjb. But I guess that what you meant above by concentrating on JJB | 17:14 |
| asselin | things like gerrit, etc. would be done in a new spec/phase 3 | 17:14 |
| asselin | *phase 2 | 17:15 |
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| asselin | #link this patch should be used for JJB https://review.openstack.org/#/c/184919/ | 17:15 |
| mmedvede | asselin: ok, makes sense. The current spec does not have all the tasks that need to happen, and more refactoring of system-config would be done. | 17:16 |
| asselin | mmedvede, what task needs to be added? | 17:17 |
| asselin | #link common-ci tasks: https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2000101 | 17:17 |
| mmedvede | sorry for having so many questions. I feel that if I reviewed more patches I would be more in-the-loop | 17:17 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, no problem, ask away | 17:17 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, would like to identify missing pieces sooner than later | 17:18 |
| mmedvede | asselin: the "masterless puppet" task - can you elaborate what it involves? | 17:18 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, the idea is to be able to setup a 3rd party ci system on a single node. This would be the starting point for new 3rd party folks...the glue that ties everything together | 17:19 |
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| mmedvede | asselin: this might answer my next question | 17:21 |
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| mmedvede | I did not know what we were supposed to use in place of system-config to glues things together | 17:21 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, so basically a verion of this that can be customized by each vendor: https://github.com/rasselin/os-ext-testing/blob/master/puppet/modules/os_ext_testing/manifests/master.pp or https://github.com/openstack-infra/system-config/blob/master/manifests/site.pp | 17:22 |
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| asselin | I proposed masterless as I think that is simpler to setup | 17:23 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, do you agree? | 17:23 |
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| mmedvede | asselin: I agree that masterless is easier to setup. But I am not sure how that would translate into ease of use, as long as upstream modules still utilize master and hiera. But I honestly did not look into it. | 17:25 |
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| mmedvede | asselin: For example, I am utilizing hiera encryption on master, so I can store my hiera in the same repo as everything else | 17:25 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, yes, I think that would be a good direction: masterless puppet, with the ability to set module versions (pin for stabilty) and use encrypted heira | 17:27 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, do you think that would work? good compromise for ease of installation, use, and maintanability? | 17:28 |
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| mmedvede | asselin: I need to understand how hiera works without master. When you have master, you have single point where you need to maintain encryption keys. | 17:30 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, when you use a puppet master, how are the encryption keys stored? | 17:32 |
| mmedvede | asselin: it is hard to know if it would work without seeing it work :) So I definitely support the direction | 17:32 |
| mmedvede | asselin: puppet-master creates private key to use specifically for hiera encryption | 17:32 |
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| mmedvede | asselin: this key is only kept on master, and optionally backed up by hand | 17:33 |
| asselin | mmedvede, ok, I see | 17:33 |
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| mmedvede | asselin: so then you can use public key to encrypt hiera, and only master would be able to use it | 17:33 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, so more investigation is needed | 17:35 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, let's see how far we can get in the sprint. If we can get basics wokring, I would consider that a success. We can always improve from there. | 17:36 |
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| mmedvede | asselin: I think simplicity wins over having master. +1 | 17:37 |
| asselin | mmedvede, sounds like you're willing to help out with that part during the sprint? | 17:38 |
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| mmedvede | I am willing :) I took logstash task though | 17:39 |
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| asselin | mmedvede, oh really, great! didn't see that | 17:39 |
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| mmedvede | logstash it is low priority. So let me know if you think I can help somewhere else | 17:39 |
| asselin | mmedvede, it's not essential, but certainly very valuable | 17:40 |
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| mmedvede | great then :) | 17:40 |
| rfolco | same here asselin, willing to help but don know where to start | 17:40 |
| asselin | mmedvede, I'll let you pick, you can do both :). | 17:41 |
| asselin | hi rfolco | 17:41 |
| asselin | rfolco, you can help out where your interests are. you work with mmedvede right? | 17:41 |
| rfolco | asselin, yes, correct. Tasks look big, maybe we can break into smaller sub-tasks ? | 17:42 |
| asselin | ok I see...you each took on half of the logstash/kibana | 17:42 |
| asselin | rfolco, storyboard isn't that great for sub-tasks | 17:42 |
| asselin | rfolco, so I kept them high-level | 17:43 |
| rfolco | I see | 17:43 |
| mmedvede | We can probably split them as we go if needed, in the etherpad | 17:43 |
| asselin | mmedvede, yeah | 17:43 |
| mmedvede | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint | 17:43 |
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| asselin | ok, anything else? otherwise we should change to topic #2 | 17:45 |
| mmedvede | nope, thanks asselin | 17:45 |
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| asselin | rfolco, mmedvede I think it's fine you work together on logstash. I'll pick up the masterless puppet task if noone else wants it :) | 17:46 |
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| rfolco | sounds good to me | 17:47 |
| asselin | #topic Spec to have infra host scoreboard (krtaylor) | 17:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Spec to have infra host scoreboard (krtaylor) (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:47 | |
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| asselin | I think krtaylor is out this week. anyone have any updates to issues to discuss? | 17:47 |
| asselin | #link scoreboard spec https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194437/ | 17:48 |
| asselin | patrickeast, you still around? | 17:48 |
| mmedvede | There is some questions about new spec relation to the old dashboard | 17:48 |
| patrickeast | asselin: yea mostly | 17:48 |
| * patrickeast catching up on scrollback | 17:48 | |
| patrickeast | ah yea, so i’m not sure what we need to do to get that spec moving | 17:49 |
| patrickeast | jogo has proposed a pretty cool alternative too | 17:49 |
| asselin | link? | 17:49 |
| patrickeast | its in the review | 17:50 |
| patrickeast | sec | 17:50 |
| patrickeast | http://jogo.github.io/lastcomment/ | 17:50 |
| mmedvede | the lastcomment serves different purpose though | 17:50 |
| asselin | #link http://jogo.github.io/lastcomment/ | 17:50 |
| patrickeast | yea | 17:50 |
| patrickeast | maybe more complimentary to the scoreboard | 17:50 |
| mmedvede | +1 on complimentary, not alternative | 17:50 |
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| asselin | to move forward, we can add to the infra meeting agenda | 17:52 |
| mmedvede | Intention of the spec needs to be made clearer, so there is not confusion that it tries to replace the dashboard spec | 17:52 |
| asselin | not sure if today is too late | 17:52 |
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| asselin | we can add it, and perhaps get votes by next week | 17:52 |
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| asselin | so it is ready to add to agenda? or should we iterate one more time? | 17:57 |
| mmedvede | asselin: the comments need to be addressed first | 17:57 |
| asselin | jhesketh's comments? he -1 and rollcall +1...not sure what that means | 17:58 |
| mmedvede | yes, I was referring to jhesketh comments | 17:58 |
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| asselin | #topic open discussion | 17:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:59 | |
| mmedvede | asselin: thank you for leading the meeting today! | 17:59 |
| asselin | thanks...see you all tomorrow! | 18:00 |
| asselin | #end-meeting | 18:00 |
| patrickeast | cya | 18:00 |
| asselin | #endmeeting | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 7 18:00:21 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-17.00.html | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-17.00.txt | 18:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-07-17.00.log.html | 18:00 |
| stevemar | keystoners assemble! | 18:00 |
| stevemar | ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, stevemar, topol, wanghong | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | stevemar: hey | 18:00 |
| samueldmq | hey p/ | 18:00 |
| ericksonsantos | \o | 18:00 |
| raildo | yay \o | 18:00 |
| samueldmq | o/ | 18:00 |
| geoffarnold | \o | 18:00 |
| lhcheng | o/ | 18:00 |
| ayoung | Heyo! | 18:00 |
| amakarov | o/ | 18:00 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:00 |
| stevemar | hey hey! :) | 18:01 |
| rharwood | hlo | 18:01 |
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| david8hu | \o | 18:01 |
| david8hu | yo ho | 18:01 |
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| topol | o/ | 18:01 |
| browne | hi | 18:01 |
| bknudson | HEY HEY HEY | 18:01 |
| rodrigods | o/ | 18:01 |
| stevemar | henrynash won't be joining today | 18:02 |
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| stevemar | hes leaving, on a jet plane | 18:02 |
| bknudson | thinking of the fat albert theme song now | 18:02 |
| stevemar | meeting ref: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:02 |
| htruta_ | o/ | 18:02 |
| stevemar | morganfainberg will be aroundish | 18:02 |
| bknudson | but I was already thinking of that after watching the news | 18:02 |
| lbragstad | reminds me of John Denver | 18:02 |
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| stevemar | we definitely have enough to start :) | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | Im here. Just delegating meeting chair to stevemar today. | 18:03 |
| stevemar | #startmeeting keystone | 18:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 7 18:03:13 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | Means in can be the peanut gallery today :P | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | I* | 18:03 |
| stevemar | morganfainberg: don't heckle too much | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | the agenda is small today | 18:04 |
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| stevemar | #topic Start restricting "/" in project names in Liberty | 18:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Start restricting "/" in project names in Liberty (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:04 | |
| stevemar | htruta_: rodrigods ^ | 18:04 |
| ayoung | +2A | 18:04 |
| ayoung | next | 18:04 |
| stevemar | lol | 18:04 |
| htruta_ | ayoung: lol | 18:04 |
| raildo | lol | 18:04 |
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| htruta_ | so, morganfainberg asked us to send an email to ml | 18:04 |
| stevemar | yeah, i can't image there is much push back on this one | 18:04 |
| ayoung | they are already restricted | 18:04 |
| htruta_ | including operators | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | since we build the URL out of them, they will break | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | Fwiw I like this plan. But i dont want to break people (operators) | 18:05 |
| htruta_ | no one answered | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: we dont do urls by project name anywhere afaik | 18:05 |
| bknudson | not everybody reads the mailing list | 18:05 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, not it Keystone, just everywhere else | 18:05 |
| ayoung | oh, wait, no you are right | 18:05 |
| htruta_ | the only guy who answered said "Do you mean project names or project IDs?" | 18:05 |
| ayoung | that is ID | 18:05 |
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| htruta_ | heh | 18:05 |
| ayoung | Crud | 18:05 |
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| rodrigods | there is no better broadcast AFAIK, bknudson | 18:05 |
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| ayoung | Just do it | 18:05 |
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| ayoung | anyone putting slashes in there is sick in the head anyway | 18:06 |
| htruta_ | we tried to give them voice, bknudson | 18:06 |
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| morganfainberg | We could probably just escape the / in the names (with a migration) and make clients smart about handing escaped variables | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | And/or horizon | 18:06 |
| raildo | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:06 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: that's not very restful | 18:06 |
| stevemar | htruta_: rodrigods this is for displaying heirarchy? | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: we still dont do anything by project name in urls | 18:07 |
| htruta_ | stevemar, this is for passing hierarchy in the future | 18:07 |
| htruta_ | with the slash | 18:07 |
| rodrigods | htruta_, ++ | 18:07 |
| htruta_ | in token body, env variables | 18:07 |
| ayoung | new rule. All names must be URL safe | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: not very rest impacting | 18:07 |
| htruta_ | ayoung ++ | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: base64 encode all the things /s | 18:07 |
| bknudson | all names must be english | 18:07 |
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| ayoung | NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO | 18:07 |
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| dstanek | if we're not talking about the URL then we should be fine and don't need any encoding | 18:08 |
| ayoung | let me find the technical term | 18:08 |
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| dstanek | ayoung: awesome? | 18:08 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: url safe isnt good for utf-8 unless urlencoded. | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | Just fyi | 18:08 |
| stevemar | wouldn't a global delimiter work better? and then check if the name includes the delimiter? | 18:08 |
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| ayoung | https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#page-10 | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: we need to expose a get-project-by name api. But that is something we can handle. | 18:08 |
| htruta_ | the slash would be it, stevemar | 18:09 |
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| dstanek | morganfainberg: hmmm....i think you can actually match a '/' in the routes regex | 18:09 |
| rodrigods | let's use slash | 18:09 |
| rodrigods | linux uses it | 18:09 |
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| ayoung | "All names must pass through URL encoding unchanged" maybe? | 18:09 |
| stevemar | i think swift uses it too | 18:09 |
| htruta_ | everybody likes slash: http://bigread.mojo4music.com/2014/01/slash/img/slash-portrait.jpg | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | Ok so i think a combo of two things solves the issue. | 18:09 |
| htruta_ | (sorry, I had to do this) | 18:10 |
| lbragstad | htruta_: ++ | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | This is from two proposals | 18:10 |
| stevemar | htruta_: ++ | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | Slash is default | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | Always preceed the hierarchy with the delimiter | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | so 1st character is the delimiter | 18:10 |
| ayoung | Slash is default. Clapton is God | 18:10 |
| geoffarnold | We really do need a global standard for the delimiter. Old school Path Separator worked ok on an isolated machine, broke with distributed file systems | 18:10 |
| rodrigods | morganfainberg, beautiful | 18:10 |
| lbragstad | ayoung: +++ | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | And the delimiter can be configured if needee | 18:10 |
| htruta_ | ayoung ++ | 18:10 |
| lbragstad | ayoung: fact | 18:10 |
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| geoffarnold | "first character is delimiter" is guranteed to confuse when someone gets it wrong | 18:11 |
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| morganfainberg | geoffarnold: we cant arbitrarily restrict a delimiter from | 18:11 |
| rodrigods | so we have this new config that says the "prohibited" char? morganfainberg | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | Names. | 18:11 |
| stevemar | i'm in favor of a configurable delimiter | 18:11 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, hell yes we can | 18:11 |
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| dstanek | if we use the first character will all project names from now on need to be specified with the delimiter? | 18:11 |
| jamielennox | i'm anti a configurable delimiter | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: no we cant. We cannot break current deployments. | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | We should use the ascii bell character instead >.> | 18:12 |
| jamielennox | it's another switch that makes one deployment different to another for no real benefit | 18:12 |
| htruta_ | dstanek: no, we'll only pass the parent_id as we do today | 18:12 |
| topol | please dont break current deployments | 18:12 |
| ayoung | "Names must be usable as a segement of URLS. Any Names that do not currently comply are not guarenteed to work with all future APIs" | 18:12 |
| rodrigods | topol, we don't want to... we sent an email to -dev and -operators | 18:12 |
| dstanek | htruta_: how do we know when to use the first character as a delimiter? | 18:12 |
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| geoffarnold | if any existing deployments use "/" in a project name, it will break | 18:12 |
| bknudson | we can deprecate / in project names and switch in 6 months | 18:13 |
| ayoung | names as they exist now will be grandfathered in, but will not work with HMT | 18:13 |
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| rodrigods | dstanek, it is not in the name, but in an extra field | 18:13 |
| ayoung | or other, future APIS | 18:13 |
| rodrigods | to specify the hierarchy | 18:13 |
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| htruta_ | rodrigods ++ | 18:13 |
| rodrigods | the names remains like the "relative path" | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | Oh | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | Wait | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | deeeerrrp | 18:13 |
| rodrigods | the "absolute path" would be an extra field | 18:13 |
| stevemar | ayoung: yeah, just can't use them as part of HMT | 18:13 |
| dstanek | now i'm really confused | 18:13 |
| geoffarnold | Here's a test: how many people ever, anywhere, configured the Unix/Windows path sep to anything other than the default? | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | In the hierarchy just replace (when construtong) / with \/ | 18:14 |
| jamielennox | geoffarnold: you can do that? | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | Backslash slash | 18:14 |
| ayoung | geoffarnold, I ofetn configure the Windows one with the Unix one. Breaks all over the place. I do this on systems for people I don't like | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | It works like posix would | 18:14 |
| amakarov | morganfainberg, slashes are by default for HMT too? | 18:14 |
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| geoffarnold | So are we going to introduce POSIX-style configurability, or mandate "/" | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | Just make / the delimiter. But in the heirarchy doing \/ if / is in the name | 18:15 |
| amakarov | morganfainberg, oh, right - "projects" | 18:15 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | Or quote the names. | 18:15 |
| topol | morganfainberg +++ | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | Easy | 18:15 |
| geoffarnold | I'm strongly against "first char is the sep". Imagine inadvertantly typing "abracadabra" and getting "a" as the sep | 18:15 |
| htruta_ | morganfainberg ++ | 18:15 |
| ericksonsantos | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:15 |
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| ayoung | let's be very restrictive here | 18:16 |
| topol | geoffarnold I agree | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: slash is the delimiter. | 18:16 |
| ayoung | "names must pass through URL Encoding unchanged" | 18:16 |
| geoffarnold | +1 | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: if slash is in the name, escape it when buildong the hierarchy | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | That solves the grandfathered in issue | 18:16 |
| rodrigods | +1000 | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | And doesnt change anything for the operator | 18:16 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, works for me. | 18:17 |
| topol | so what morganfainberg suggests is easy to understand and follow | 18:17 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg: just to make sure, if we already had \/ in the project name, that still works, right ? | 18:17 |
| rodrigods | morganfainberg, should we change the current project names? or just in M? | 18:17 |
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| morganfainberg | samueldmq: you'd end up with \\/ | 18:17 |
| ayoung | we should advise that names will be used this way, and should not include characters that will be escaped | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods: talk about being more restrictive in M with more operator feedback | 18:17 |
| htruta_ | so, in Liberty we'll just warn people? | 18:17 |
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| morganfainberg | I want to eliminate slash. But i want to avoid breaking anyone. | 18:18 |
| geoffarnold | I'd like a "safe" mode in CLI and Horizon, rejecting "/" in non-HMT contexts | 18:18 |
| htruta_ | or will we already make this restriction? | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | Dont change anything in L | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | geoffarnold: we cant because everyhing is HMT soon | 18:18 |
| bknudson | we'll need identty API v4 to support HMT | 18:18 |
| geoffarnold | I mean any context where a token is meant to represent a node, not a path | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | So in specifying a hierarchy \/ == / in a prkect name | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | But onlu in the hierarchy represenataiton | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | Very similar to filesystem referencing special characters/spaces/etc | 18:19 |
| ayoung | practical concern: will our webobjectwhatever support that? | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: since we dont do anything by project name as part of the url, (query string aside) we shpuld be ok | 18:20 |
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| ayoung | Yet. | 18:20 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, ...lets face it UUIDs are abusive | 18:20 |
| htruta_ | can't we filter something by the name? | 18:20 |
| ayoung | people want names. | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: so in m we talk about being more restrictive | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | We need more feedback before hard locking that out. Or knowing we need urlencoding | 18:21 |
| ayoung | fair enough. Works for me. Although , I would argue we should be restrictive for new resources now... | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | This isnt really "new though" | 18:21 |
| rodrigods | ayoung, ++ | 18:21 |
| ayoung | but that might put the hurt on upgrades that do a full export-import | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | And all projects are part of a hierarchy in l | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: that too | 18:22 |
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| morganfainberg | Most cases we wont ever hit issues | 18:23 |
| geoffarnold | So let's be clear: what will be in "L" and what in "M"? Is HMT usable in "L" (without APIv4? | 18:23 |
| jamielennox | so we decided to not do project names are unique in a domain? | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | But we address where people put slashes into the names. | 18:23 |
| htruta_ | jamielennox, not yet | 18:23 |
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| morganfainberg | geoffarnold: we will not be doing an api v4 in L. And i dont want to talk about thst for M at this point | 18:24 |
| ayoung | Meiji! | 18:24 |
| geoffarnold | So is HMT usable in L? | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | geoffarnold: yes. | 18:24 |
| ayoung | 明治 | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | That is the plan. The only edge case is: if a project has a / in the name, do \/ in the hierarchy definition. Dont change the name | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | Think of it like a path | 18:25 |
| geoffarnold | Good | 18:25 |
| samueldmq | geoffarnold: it's already usable in K, for organizating the projects in a hierarchy (let's say representing a departmental organization, for ex) | 18:25 |
| ayoung | OK...anything that needs formal approval for this htruta_ ? | 18:25 |
| ayoung | spec or anything | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: just an update to a spec | 18:25 |
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| morganfainberg | Unless anyone has concerns with the proposal? | 18:25 |
| stevemar | 20 minutes on slash, good thing we only have 1 other topic | 18:26 |
| jamielennox | so the plan will be if i create a new project and i name it "A/B/C", i'll automatically be creating a hierarchy? | 18:26 |
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| dstanek | morganfainberg: who has to do that escaping? the keystone servers or the clients? | 18:26 |
| bknudson | it's not backwards compatible | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: clients | 18:26 |
| bknudson | so it violates the stability guidelines | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: we dont require specification of the heirarchy today | 18:26 |
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| morganfainberg | So this doesnt break anything | 18:26 |
| dstanek | jamielennox: i don't think so | 18:26 |
| david8hu | is "A/B/C" absolute or relative? | 18:27 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: is there anyway we can do it on the server side? | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | The escape is only in the hierarchy representation. | 18:27 |
| htruta_ | jamielennox, we are not doing this, at least, not now. I think we should restrict using slash in create projects | 18:27 |
| lbragstad | it should be relative, right? | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: well the server will hand back the hierarchy like that if asked | 18:27 |
| htruta_ | jamielennox, we need parent_id (not name), a domain and a name | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: but if they havent asked for the hierarchy, the client would need to construct it | 18:27 |
| david8hu | It should be relative to the current project scope. | 18:28 |
| stevemar | htruta_: create and set | 18:28 |
| dstanek | if the server can has here is your project name and the hierarchy under which it sets they wouldn't have to - i don't like the idea of putting this kind of logic in the clients | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: if you have the info from the server its fine. The part that the client needs to know is *if* you dont already have that info | 18:28 |
| ayoung | if we are going to support creating a hierarchy, it should be a new API call. like mkdir -P | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | Same as today. | 18:29 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: can't it ask for it? | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | If you know your project id, from previous query etc, you can use it | 18:29 |
| jamielennox | ok, i didn't mean to derail that onto creation but i'm just trying to figure out where you would use this | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | Depends on auth by name | 18:29 |
| dstanek | i worry that as we make changes we can't do it as easily is we have clients that depends on doing the logic themselves | 18:29 |
| jamielennox | why using a slash is better than listing subprojects of the current project then doing things by id | 18:29 |
| htruta_ | jamielennox, it's on token request by project name | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | You may not be able to know it dstanek | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | Uuid/uuid/uuid is awful and borderline unusable from a ux | 18:30 |
| stevemar | htruta_: if i'm authenticating with project name, do i have to supply the whole 'a/b/c' or just 'c' ? | 18:30 |
| bknudson | so because we decided we're not going to change token request to use a list rather than a string now we're forced down this path of restricting project names to not have / | 18:31 |
| ayoung | stevemar, whole thing if it is ambiguous | 18:31 |
| bknudson | that was pretty sneaky | 18:31 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson: we didnt restrict / from project names | 18:31 |
| dstanek | stevemar: the whole thing if there is another project with the same name, i think | 18:31 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: we can't say if it's ambiguous, if it works today where name is unique and suddenly tomorrow name is not unique then everything breaks | 18:31 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: that's the proposal -- don't allow / in project names | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: we just require escaping / in the hierarchy specification thats all that is being proposed now | 18:32 |
| bknudson | Start restricting "/" in project names in Liberty? | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: right and weve shifted from that as incompatible | 18:32 |
| geoffarnold | +1 bknudson | 18:32 |
| htruta_ | stevemar, I'd be fine if you passed just C when there is no conflict. if there is another C in the domain, you'd need the hierarchy | 18:32 |
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| morganfainberg | Though I would like to restrict that. We cant atm | 18:32 |
| david8hu | bknudson, +1 | 18:32 |
| dstanek | stevemar: htruta_: that was/is one of my concerns about what the user has to know | 18:33 |
| bknudson | so is htruta and rodrigods fine with that change? | 18:33 |
| geoffarnold | So what will "GET /v3/projects" yield from the root of the HMT? | 18:33 |
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| dstanek | i'd be happier if they always had to provide an unambiguous project name | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | htruta, rodrigods ^^ bknudson's question | 18:33 |
| rodrigods | dstanek, ++ | 18:33 |
| lbragstad | dstanek: ++ | 18:33 |
| rodrigods | bknudson, restricting / ? | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | Re the change to escape / vs restrict / | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | And escape only in the hierarchy representation | 18:34 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, nothing else is backwards compatible | 18:34 |
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| stevemar | dstanek: yeah, that'll be clunky when authenticating i think | 18:34 |
| rodrigods | morganfainberg, I'd be glad to follow any of them | 18:34 |
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| rodrigods | just looking for a consensus :) | 18:35 |
| htruta_ | i'd be okay with any of them, but I'd prefer restricting | 18:35 |
| stevemar | project:{ name: {"a/b/c/"}} - i guess that works | 18:35 |
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| bknudson | doesn't work since it's not valid json | 18:35 |
| stevemar | bknudson: it's valid | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | stevemar: uh. {"thing"} isnt | 18:36 |
| dstanek | project: {root: 'a/b', name]' | 18:36 |
| dstanek | ugg... | 18:36 |
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| morganfainberg | dstanek: still needs escapes but.. Sure? | 18:36 |
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| dstanek | project: {root: 'a/b', name: 'c'} --or-- project: {name: 'a/b/c'}? | 18:37 |
| stevemar | morganfainberg: oops, yeah, i was more concerned about slashes in the value part | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: both need to handle / in the names. | 18:37 |
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| morganfainberg | But either work for me | 18:37 |
| rodrigods | dstanek, {root: '/a/b', name: 'c'} | 18:37 |
| rodrigods | I'd prefer | 18:37 |
| ayoung | project: ['a','b','c'] | 18:37 |
| rodrigods | so we could | 18:37 |
| dstanek | --or -- project: {root: ['a', 'b'], name: 'c'} | 18:37 |
| rodrigods | dstanek, {root: '/', name: 'a'} | 18:37 |
| stevemar | both should work | 18:37 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: also an option. And id be fine with that | 18:37 |
| htruta_ | dstanek, the one with the root | 18:37 |
| htruta_ | so, we could keep passing just the name when no conflict happens :D less people broken | 18:38 |
| dstanek | htruta_: how do we know when there will be a confilct? | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: until you try you dont. | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | And you can suddenly have a conflict | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | So a valid request could suddenly fail | 18:39 |
| ayoung | yep | 18:39 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: and then how do they get the list of hierarchies? | 18:39 |
| ayoung | and that means that if you are worried about that, use the full path version | 18:39 |
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| dstanek | if you can get a list the clients don't have to know how to encode | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: we should always pass the full path | 18:39 |
| rodrigods | dstanek, we can include the "root" attribute in projects info | 18:39 |
| bknudson | maybe we should use URLs for project IDs | 18:40 |
| dstanek | but this is the thing i didn't like before. working code can suddenly break | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | If you want deeper than 1 level below the domain. | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: we should do that for all resources in openstack | 18:40 |
| ayoung | bknudson, I think we should work towards that | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | Not just in keystone. | 18:40 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: ++ | 18:41 |
| dstanek | so users will have OS_PROJECT_NAME and OS_PROJECT_ROOT defined when using the clients? | 18:41 |
| ayoung | dstanek, that is the price we pay for making this feature work | 18:41 |
| rodrigods | dstanek, yes | 18:41 |
| bknudson | dstanek: I'll put it in my clouds.yaml | 18:41 |
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| ayoung | dstanek, that will make people sad | 18:41 |
| bknudson | need to change all the auth plugins | 18:41 |
| dstanek | ayoung: i disagree this is the price we pay for having the is_domain project point to itself | 18:41 |
| htruta_ | I guess this is another discussion | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | Always pass a hierarchy if you want anything below the first layer of the domain | 18:42 |
| rodrigods | using / has the advantage for SAML assertions generated by keystone too | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | If you dont pass a hierarchy it works like today. Nothing nested. | 18:42 |
| rodrigods | otherwise we would include another attribute to identity projects/domains | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | ? | 18:42 |
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| ayoung | Why do we do this to ourselves? | 18:42 |
| jamielennox | so i say this is divisive and nobody really knows how this will work because HMT really isn't out there. I think we initially restrict login by name to that top level of existing projects, require login by id for others and we figure out the rescoping process better in future | 18:42 |
| ayoung | Oh, wait, we inherited this mess.... | 18:42 |
| rodrigods | ayoung, lol | 18:43 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, and add in a new rule that says that project names under the root must not contain / | 18:43 |
| ayoung | OK, that took 43 minutes | 18:43 |
| lbragstad | ~16 minutes left | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | Ok this is going in circles | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | We need to move on | 18:43 |
| ayoung | anything else we want to talk about? | 18:43 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: morganfainberg dynamic policies .. | 18:44 |
| htruta_ | ok, morganfainberg... so... nothing changes in L? | 18:44 |
| dstanek | should this be a topic for the midcycle? | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | Discuss this more offline | 18:44 |
| ayoung | OK...so | 18:44 |
| geoffarnold | The worst thing would be if we created a horrible solution for working with API v3 and then felt constrained to perpetuate the bad bits in v4 | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: likely | 18:44 |
| lbragstad | dstanek: ++ | 18:44 |
| ayoung | "Should "Policy Fetch & Cache + Endpoint Constraint Enforcement" live in their own Middleware ?" | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: i don't really care. I think we want to enforce the unscoped token, then scoped token flow and we have the client search for project name as a convenience and do auth by id | 18:44 |
| ayoung | short answer "yes and no" | 18:44 |
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| ayoung | yes in that it would be cleaner | 18:44 |
| ayoung | and that we should be able to deploy that way | 18:44 |
| ayoung | no in that it is a PITA | 18:44 |
| ayoung | so...we do both | 18:44 |
| stevemar | #topic Should "Policy Fetch & Cache + Endpoint Constraint Enforcement" live in their own Middleware | 18:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Should "Policy Fetch & Cache + Endpoint Constraint Enforcement" live in their own Middleware (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:44 | |
| ayoung | make ATM work as a stack of separatable middelwares | 18:44 |
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| gyee | sooo which one is yes and which one is no? | 18:45 |
| ayoung | gyee, we make ATM work as a pre-canned pipeline | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | so, first of all, Spec Freeze Exception email from last week | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | #link https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg57416.html | 18:45 |
| ayoung | but make it so we can deploy the middleware's separately as well | 18:45 |
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| gyee | jamielennox, you have any nasty thing to say to ayoung? | 18:46 |
| gyee | for making it separate middleware? :) | 18:46 |
| samueldmq | one of the topics for dynamic polcieis today is whether we create a separate middleware filter for dynamic fething of policies + endpoint constraint enforcement | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | i think it should be seperate, i don't really see the difference in the auth_token middleware pipeline to being in the regular pipeline after auth_token middleware | 18:46 |
| ayoung | lets make it "separatable" and then the question is whether we make it possible to link into ATM as well | 18:46 |
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| dstanek | what do you mean by link into? | 18:47 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, modifying every single puppet deployment script for each service would be painful | 18:47 |
| gyee | ayoung, it is separatable right now, _enforce_global_target is a separate class | 18:47 |
| ayoung | dstanek, Ideally, ATM would be something like a list of middlewares | 18:47 |
| gyee | trivial to move it to separate middleware | 18:48 |
| ayoung | gyee, we are on the way to it, yes | 18:48 |
| ayoung | exactly, | 18:48 |
| gyee | just put a shim around it | 18:48 |
| ayoung | so make it explicit: Auth token middleware contains no code other than managing a list of other middlewares executed in order, and we add policy to that to start. | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | messing with paste means that this will go nowhere | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | we want to minimize the impact on other projects | 18:49 |
| gyee | mo refactoring :) | 18:49 |
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| gyee | but I like it | 18:49 |
| ayoung | we already made them all update to run oslo as a library. Let's hold it there | 18:50 |
| samueldmq | yes make sense .. although auth_token could be called anything else then | 18:50 |
| samueldmq | but if we change its name, we fall into the same issue | 18:50 |
| gyee | authnz | 18:50 |
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| ayoung | the trickier parts of getting the other projects to agree is still in the future | 18:50 |
| * gyee is stealing from apache mod_authnz | 18:50 | |
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| jamielennox | gyee: i read that as auth new zealand | 18:51 |
| ayoung | and it has to do with unifying the approach to the policy content itself. | 18:51 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: hehe | 18:51 |
| lbragstad | ~9 minutes left | 18:51 |
| ayoung | How to identify the endpoint at Middleware ? Endpoint URL vs Endpoint ID vs Policy custom ID | 18:51 |
| samueldmq | so auth_token would be refactored to be a middleware 'wrapper', containing the actual auth_token + the policy fetch thing | 18:51 |
| gyee | jamielennox, nice | 18:51 |
| ayoung | short answer. URL | 18:51 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: gyee ^ | 18:51 |
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| ayoung | URL must map to at least one endpoint's URL value in order to work | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: long answer "U R L"? :P | 18:52 |
| ayoung | if there are multiple "endpoints" at the same URL, but with different endpoint_ids...we force them all to use the same policy file | 18:52 |
| gyee | samueldmq, didn't we agree on custom endpoint ID? | 18:52 |
| ayoung | gyee, nope | 18:52 |
| stevemar | morganfainberg: you're enjoying the peanut gallery too much today | 18:52 |
| gyee | whahhh? | 18:52 |
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| ayoung | gyee, here is the goal: | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | stevemar: hey im not heckling much. | 18:53 |
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| ayoung | we need something that is pre-calculated but that maps to an endpoint | 18:53 |
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| ayoung | if we do a custom name, that requires a whole new mapping | 18:53 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: that could be a custom endpoint id | 18:53 |
| ayoung | samueldmq, nope | 18:53 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: custom endpoint id != custom policy id | 18:53 |
| ayoung | "cuystome endpoint id" means something that we need to map to a new endpoint | 18:53 |
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| ayoung | we need these to resolve upwards | 18:53 |
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| ayoung | we don't expect policy to be deployed per endpoint | 18:54 |
| gyee | ayoung, endpoint group then? | 18:54 |
| gyee | dynamic endpoint group | 18:54 |
| ayoung | gyee, lets not | 18:54 |
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| ayoung | please...keep it simple | 18:54 |
| ayoung | you are making this much harder than needs be | 18:54 |
| gyee | simpler than endpoint groups? | 18:54 |
| ayoung | gyee, we don't have those in every deployment | 18:54 |
| gyee | just a filter | 18:54 |
| ayoung | No | 18:54 |
| ayoung | No | 18:54 |
| ayoung | No | 18:54 |
| ayoung | just the end point | 18:54 |
| ayoung | you "fetch" based on the most specific | 18:55 |
| gyee | endpoint what? | 18:55 |
| ayoung | you resolve to the most general | 18:55 |
| ayoung | I would do endpoint ID, but we want something that is precalculatable | 18:55 |
| gyee | URL is too ambiguous | 18:55 |
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| ayoung | no it is not | 18:55 |
| gyee | huh | 18:55 |
| ayoung | if the same URL is used by two endpoints they get the same policy. Period | 18:55 |
| gyee | public URL is just an API proxy in must deployments | 18:55 |
| ayoung | that is fine | 18:56 |
| ayoung | then they all get the same policy file | 18:56 |
| dstanek | in my mind this was as simple as a service containing an id that maps to a particular policy. the service looks up the id in their config and then periodically requests it from keystone | 18:56 |
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| ayoung | dstanek, no | 18:56 |
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| ayoung | servioce does not say "give me this particular policy" | 18:56 |
| gyee | same policy for multiple services? | 18:56 |
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| ayoung | services endpoint says "I am endpoijjnt blah, give me my policy" and keystone choses which to serve | 18:56 |
| gyee | thought we are not doing that in the first round | 18:56 |
| ayoung | this has always been the starting point | 18:57 |
| ayoung | if you don't get this...well, that is why I have a 30+ slide presentation I am preparing for next week | 18:57 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: yes I agree, however, if we allowed custom *endpoint* ids, we would identify the endpoints | 18:57 |
| gyee | I thought for the first phase, we are still keeping the service policies separate | 18:57 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: with something that could be known a priori | 18:57 |
| dstanek | ayoung: it's basically the same thing - here is the ID i have configured...give me the correct policy | 18:57 |
| dstanek | just slightly different | 18:57 |
| gyee | if we are going to combine them, then yeah, we have a different ball game | 18:57 |
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| ayoung | OK...the only reason we went with URL is beacuse we know it ahead of time. If we don't do URL, we go back to endpoint_id. But URL is *good enough* | 18:58 |
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| gyee | URL is not good enough till we combine policies | 18:58 |
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| gyee | otherwise it would be ambiguous | 18:58 |
| gyee | security people hate ambiguity | 18:59 |
| ayoung | dstanek, gyee are you talking based on real experience or is this just a mind experiment? | 18:59 |
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| ayoung | No...there is no ambiguity | 18:59 |
| gyee | ayoung, real deployment | 18:59 |
| dstanek | ayoung: mind experiment! | 18:59 |
| ayoung | gyee, so you have a deployment, where one service host has multiple endpoints with different policy on them? | 18:59 |
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| samueldmq | stevemar: I think time's over, we should leave the floor to #infra ... should we continue in #keystone ? | 19:00 |
| ayoung | keystone admin has different policy than keystone main? | 19:00 |
| gyee | ayoung, out public URL has multiple services behind it | 19:00 |
| lbragstad | out of time, | 19:00 |
| gyee | our | 19:00 |
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| stevemar | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 7 19:00:28 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-07-07-18.03.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-07-07-18.03.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-07-07-18.03.log.html | 19:00 |
| stevemar | thanks for the poke ayoung | 19:00 |
| gyee | damit, gimme Liberty or gimme mo time! | 19:00 |
| fungi | hrm... so quiet without the keystoners here | 19:01 |
| AJaeger | fungi, let's change that ;) | 19:01 |
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| jeblair | howdy! | 19:01 |
| crinkle | o/ | 19:02 |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 19:02 |
| ianw | o/ | 19:02 |
| Clint | o/ | 19:02 |
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| anteaya | o/ | 19:02 |
| stevemar | fungi: you've got a crowd now | 19:02 |
| jesusaurus | o/ | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| Shrews | hey hey | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 7 19:02:14 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| pabelanger | o/ | 19:02 |
| yolanda | o/ | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:02 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:02 |
| jhesketh | Morning | 19:02 |
| SotK | o/ | 19:02 |
| nibalizer | heyo | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-30-19.01.html | 19:02 |
| SpamapS | o/ | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #topic Specs approval | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| zaro | o/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #topic Specs approval: Refstack hosting | 19:03 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: Refstack hosting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| jeblair | #link refstack hosting spec http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/refstack_dot_org.html | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #info refstack hosting spec approved | 19:03 |
| jeblair | so that landed! | 19:03 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:03 |
| pleia2 | yay refstack spec | 19:03 |
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| fungi | i have a change proposed to create that server now | 19:04 |
| fungi | though it needs some puppet help | 19:04 |
| jeblair | light the puppet signal | 19:04 |
| * crinkle hides | 19:04 | |
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| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/198869 | 19:04 |
| nibalizer | heh | 19:04 |
| fungi | i started digging into the failure log there | 19:04 |
| fungi | haven't gotten very far | 19:04 |
| fungi | hogepodge: ^ when you get time | 19:04 |
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| fungi | anyway, we can move on with specs news | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | yay progress, and it's nice for puppet folks to have outed themselves :) | 19:05 |
| mordred | yay puppet people | 19:05 |
| jeblair | #topic Specs approval: Centralize release tagging | 19:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: Centralize release tagging (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:05 | |
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| jeblair | #link centralize release tagging spec https://review.openstack.org/191193 | 19:06 |
| pabelanger | fungi, incoming reviews | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | this has gone through several revisions | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | with some really good back and forth on the different options, most of which is actually captured in the alternatives section | 19:06 |
| Rockyg | o/ | 19:06 |
| fungi | yep, was in the middle of rereading it when the meeting snuck up on me | 19:06 |
| jeblair | so you probably don't even need to look at the old review comments :) | 19:06 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: should I fix that typo in the current patch, or submit a cleanup patch? | 19:07 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: i'd go with cleanup | 19:07 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair: ack | 19:07 |
| fungi | i have at least one additional rendering error i'm seeing | 19:08 |
| fungi | which can also go to cleanup | 19:08 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: ok, I'll watch for a comment (I didn't see any issues scanning quickly just now) | 19:09 |
| dhellmann | oh, in the list, I see it | 19:09 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: i went ahead and added it now while i'm finishing reading through it | 19:09 |
| fungi | i mean, while i'm paying attention in this meeting! | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | anyway, i think a good set of affected/interested folks have examined this; anyone think it needs more time or should we open voting? | 19:09 |
| fungi | ;) | 19:09 |
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| dhellmann | cleanups: https://review.openstack.org/199226 | 19:10 |
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| fungi | go ahead and open voting. if i discover i'm concerned by anything it it while finishing skimming we can always adjust the spec down the road | 19:11 |
| ttx | o/ | 19:11 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I expect to tweak the file format details as we start implementing the tools to read it, but I think this is what we want in broad strokes | 19:11 |
| jeblair | sounds good | 19:11 |
| jeblair | #info centralize release tagging spec voting open until 2015-07-09 19:00 UTC | 19:12 |
| fungi | it looks like it embodies enough of what we discussed early on that we've got latitude to shift direction with tooling down the road since it's starting out mostly manual | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | dhellmann: thanks! | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | #topic Schedule Project Renames | 19:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Schedule Project Renames (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:13 | |
| dhellmann | jeblair: thanks for all the feedback along the way | 19:13 |
| jeblair | anyone want to do some renames, or should we wait a few more weeks? | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | (as an aside, i got good feedback from the tc last week on the stackforge resolution, and hope to have a revised version ready for next week's meeting) | 19:14 |
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| fungi | looks like we have a dozen lined up so far | 19:14 |
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| anteaya | sprint is this friday | 19:14 |
| fungi | this weekend is out for me since i'm closing on a house at the end of the week | 19:14 |
| jeblair | anteaya: wed/thurs i think | 19:14 |
| anteaya | I'm at keystone midcycle next friday | 19:14 |
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| anteaya | so it is | 19:14 |
| pleia2 | I'm around all week (though participating in puppet sprint friday) | 19:15 |
| fungi | weekend after next is oscon travel i think | 19:15 |
| anteaya | I had in my head thursday friday | 19:15 |
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| anteaya | I prefer small bites | 19:15 |
| anteaya | rather than huge platters of rename | 19:15 |
| pleia2 | fungi: yeah, I fly out on that friday | 19:15 |
| anteaya | the last round was tiring | 19:15 |
| fungi | i could probably do friday the 18th since i don't fly until the weekend | 19:15 |
| pabelanger | I'll assist if needed | 19:15 |
| anteaya | july 18th is a saturday | 19:16 |
| fungi | er, 17th ;) | 19:16 |
| nibz | ya, is there a way for people like me to help with these operations? | 19:16 |
| jeblair | pabelanger: cool, thanks; there ended up being a lot of project-config changes that needed wrangling last time (that was actually most of the work) | 19:16 |
| jeblair | nibz: ^ | 19:16 |
| anteaya | nibz: review the patches | 19:16 |
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| jeblair | and rebase/fix/resolve conflicts | 19:16 |
| fungi | and also review the maintenance plan for mismatches/discrepancies | 19:16 |
| fungi | and also help test things out afterward | 19:17 |
| nibz | ok | 19:17 |
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| pabelanger | roger | 19:17 |
| AJaeger | during review we should check that the changes are really renames and no new jobs added - let's keep the changes simple | 19:17 |
| nibz | im free july 18th to help | 19:17 |
| fungi | mordred: any interest in having your rename playbook in shape for that? | 19:17 |
| jeblair | nibz: how about july 17? | 19:17 |
| mordred | fungi: yes | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: are you flying on 17th? | 19:17 |
| anteaya | july 17th is keystone midcycle for me | 19:18 |
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| anteaya | but the week after is nova midcycle | 19:18 |
| fungi | mordred: are you around on the 17th? (metaphysical question i know) | 19:18 |
| anteaya | so planning around me isn't really useful | 19:18 |
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| nibz | jeblair: ya I can july 17 | 19:19 |
| mordred | I get on a plane at 2pm Eastern | 19:19 |
| mordred | so - I may not be actually available at a useful time | 19:19 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: yes, need to be there in time for friday evening events | 19:19 |
| jeblair | #startvote are you available for renames on these dates? july10, july17, both | 19:19 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: are you available for renames on these dates? Valid vote options are july10, july17, both. | 19:19 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 19:19 |
| pleia2 | #vote july10 | 19:20 |
| jeblair | i'm abusing the poll option here to survey our availability ^ | 19:20 |
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| jeblair | #vote both | 19:20 |
| anteaya | #vote july10 | 19:20 |
| zaro | #vote july10 | 19:20 |
| pabelanger | #vote july10 | 19:20 |
| fungi | july17 | 19:20 |
| fungi | #vote july17 | 19:20 |
| * zaro on vacation in coming weeks. | 19:20 | |
| nibz | #vote both | 19:20 |
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| jeblair | mordred: ? | 19:21 |
| mordred | #vote july10 | 19:21 |
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| jeblair | i think that's everyone who expressed an interest | 19:21 |
| jeblair | #endvote | 19:21 |
| openstack | Voted on "are you available for renames on these dates?" Results are | 19:21 |
| openstack | july17 (1): fungi | 19:21 |
| openstack | both (2): jeblair, nibz | 19:21 |
| openstack | july10 (5): mordred, pleia2, anteaya, zaro, pabelanger | 19:21 |
| jeblair | pleia2: have you done one of these? | 19:22 |
| fungi | i'm fine skipping one. i think i've been around for the last 10+ | 19:22 |
| anteaya | jeblair: any way I can get permissions on the github rename part? | 19:22 |
| anteaya | jeblair: that seems like a tough slog and something I could figure out how to do | 19:22 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: I pitched in a couple times ago, and have watched several, I'm ready to take a stronger role this time around | 19:22 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: fraid not; the perms to do that are terrifyingly broad. i don't like that i have them. | 19:22 |
| anteaya | jeblair: okay, I'm trying to find ways to help | 19:23 |
| jeblair | pleia2: woot, then i think we should do it on july 10 | 19:23 |
| pleia2 | \o/ | 19:23 |
| jeblair | give fungi a break and you an opportunity | 19:23 |
| fungi | heh | 19:23 |
| pleia2 | sounds good | 19:23 |
| jeblair | pleia2: want to start by sending the announcement? :) | 19:23 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: will do | 19:24 |
| pleia2 | what time? | 19:24 |
| pleia2 | US pacific afternoon on friday seems best | 19:24 |
| jeblair | 20:00 or 21:00 utc? | 19:24 |
| jeblair | er, wait not those | 19:24 |
| jeblair | 21 or 22? | 19:25 |
| jeblair | perhaps 22? | 19:25 |
| pleia2 | 2200 | 19:25 |
| anteaya | I think last one was 2200 | 19:25 |
| nibz | 2200 sgtm | 19:25 |
| jeblair | #agreed next project renames at 2200 utc july 10 | 19:25 |
| jeblair | #action pleia2 send announcement of next project renames at 2200 utc july 10 | 19:26 |
| anteaya | who will set up the etherpad for the event? | 19:26 |
| anteaya | fungi usually does that | 19:26 |
| fungi | i am happy to provide tips | 19:26 |
| jeblair | fungi: want to help pleia2 with that? | 19:26 |
| pleia2 | I can take a stab at that too | 19:26 |
| * pleia2 thumbs up | 19:26 | |
| jeblair | and mordred will hopefully throw some code at you soon :) | 19:27 |
| pleia2 | I'll look at the past ones and fungi can error check | 19:27 |
| * mordred slings code like a ... | 19:27 | |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet) | 19:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:27 | |
| * mordred can't finish that sentence in any useful way | 19:27 | |
| jeblair | finished it for you | 19:27 |
| fungi | pleia2: best not to directly copy old ones--at least start with a copy of the steps from our documented instructions every time in case they change | 19:27 |
| yolanda | there are a few patches pending for review or approval from my side | 19:27 |
| nibz | this week has been cool for downstream puppet because puppet-zuul/openstackci/system-config are now linked | 19:27 |
| pleia2 | fungi: noted | 19:28 |
| jeblair | awesome! | 19:28 |
| mordred | nibz: dude | 19:28 |
| * mordred notes nibz new nick approvingly | 19:28 | |
| yolanda | nibalizer, puppet-os-cloud-config project change was landed | 19:28 |
| nibz | sweet, so that opens the door for us to write that module, then patch the nodepool puppet module | 19:29 |
| asselin | o/ | 19:29 |
| mordred | \o/ | 19:29 |
| nibz | I'd like to ask for reviews on the stack starting here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/184891/ | 19:29 |
| nibz | Its the beaker tests for openstackci | 19:29 |
| yolanda | yes, i have the changes ready for nodepool and secure.config, so that bit is missing, and well be good for openstack-ci for nodepool | 19:29 |
| jeblair | oh yes, i should look at those | 19:29 |
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| nibz | very close to what they're doing in openstack/puppet-* | 19:29 |
| nibz | we've even gotten a bit silly and we zuul-clone the system-config so changes to e.g. modules.env can get picked up | 19:30 |
| nibz | thanks to crinkle for doing most of the work there | 19:30 |
| jeblair | that sounds like a good idea to me, but then, i'm silly | 19:30 |
| crinkle | zuulception | 19:30 |
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| pleia2 | yay crinkle | 19:30 |
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| jeblair | #info Sign-up if interested in virtual sprint: July 8-9, 2015 15:00 UTC https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint | 19:31 |
| jeblair | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint | 19:31 |
| nibz | thats all I have from puppet-space | 19:31 |
| pleia2 | never a dull moment around here | 19:31 |
| fungi | sorry all, i need to duck out. bank/lawyer last minute stuff. ping me if you need anything and i'll read the log when i get back later today | 19:31 |
| jeblair | fungi: np, thanks | 19:31 |
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| asselin | also, please add your name to a specific are of interest on the etherpad so we can have mini-groups of people divide and conquer | 19:32 |
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| jeblair | any more downstream puppet stuff? (though, i mean, we'll be talking about it a lot tomorrow) | 19:32 |
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| yolanda | there were some problems today with several projects, due to removal of puppet-system acl | 19:33 |
| yolanda | i sent a change for puppet-refstack fix, there were a pair of failures also for beaker projects, not sure about it | 19:33 |
| jeblair | yolanda: i'm not sure what you mean | 19:34 |
| AJaeger | jeblair, yolanda: https://review.openstack.org/198938 | 19:34 |
| yolanda | jeblair, in project-config, 3 projects where pointing to a non-existing acl | 19:34 |
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| zaro | asselin: i don't see juame in the sprint. is he gonna complete the jjb portion? | 19:34 |
| anteaya | some patches were merged that pointed to a non-existant acl | 19:34 |
| asselin | there's one task I added to create a sample site.pp to put it all together. If anyone's interested to do that, let me know. | 19:34 |
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| yolanda | AJaeger, thx, +1 | 19:35 |
| nibz | asselin: i've added my name to that | 19:35 |
| asselin | zaro, I haven't heard from him. I've reviewed some of his patches and may just push up some fixes | 19:35 |
| nibz | I figure thats where I can be the most help, other than going off in a corner to poke testing | 19:35 |
| asselin | nibz, thanks | 19:35 |
| yolanda | nibz, will you be able to take some time tomorrow in the os-cloud-config stuff? i can help there as well, so we get all the bits ready for nodepool | 19:36 |
| asselin | nibz == nibalizer ? | 19:36 |
| anteaya | asselin: yes | 19:36 |
| nibz | yes this is nibalizer, I am unfortunately not with ssh keys right now | 19:36 |
| nibz | so the normal irc session is locked off | 19:36 |
| zaro | asselin: i think there was another change required to plumb the new jjb manifest. i can do if you like | 19:36 |
| anteaya | keyless nibalizer | 19:36 |
| nibz | yolanda: we can just do it after this meeting if you want | 19:36 |
| asselin | zaro, ok sure...go ahead. i'll test and review | 19:36 |
| jeblair | probably ought to get a +1 from the infra ptl before adding new infra projects | 19:36 |
| nibz | jeblair: heh | 19:37 |
| yolanda | nibz, i won't be staying after the meeting, too late for me, but i can review and pick up tomorrow | 19:37 |
| nibz | okay sure | 19:37 |
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| nibz | ill stay up until you get on probably so can handoff | 19:37 |
| yolanda | ah yes, you never sleep, we can talk in my morning :) | 19:37 |
| nibz | so anything else on poopit? | 19:37 |
| * nibz out of things | 19:38 | |
| yolanda | not from my side | 19:38 |
| mordred | nibz: that makes me want to say so many things ... none of them useful | 19:38 |
| * Clint coughs. | 19:38 | |
| jeblair | #topic Phabricator analysis (ttx) | 19:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Phabricator analysis (ttx) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:38 | |
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| ttx | ohai | 19:38 |
| asselin | it would be good to put in your timezone on the etherpad.. | 19:38 |
| mordred | look it's a ttx | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194119/ | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-July/002885.html | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Phabricator | 19:38 |
| jeblair | i prepared some #links for you :) | 19:38 |
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| ttx | right, so I proposed a step on that phabricator spoec where we would do some investigation on how we could solve some of the complex openstack use cases with Phabricator | 19:39 |
| ttx | That's https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194119/ | 19:39 |
| ttx | I didn't wait for that to be approved and did that analysis last week and Monday | 19:40 |
| jeblair | (which i think we can merge now that mordred has seen it) | 19:40 |
| ttx | posted progress on infra list, and summary on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Phabricator* | 19:40 |
| pleia2 | ttx: thank you for your thorough emails, they were great | 19:40 |
| * mordred has been enjoying them | 19:40 | |
| ttx | It's not every day that I dive into some PHP | 19:40 |
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| ttx | been cleaning myself up three times today to wash the dye | 19:40 |
| pleia2 | hehe | 19:41 |
| anteaya | salt baths | 19:41 |
| anteaya | I recommend them | 19:41 |
| ttx | So I guess the next step is to push at least some of that wishlist to Phabricator itself | 19:41 |
| ttx | see how likely they are to include it | 19:41 |
| ttx | some of it is clearly off-product from how they usually react | 19:42 |
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| ttx | they could be amenable in supporting a hook point though, if we contract Phacility to do it | 19:42 |
| mordred | yah | 19:42 |
| jeblair | yeah, i'm not super keen on supporting a fork | 19:42 |
| jeblair | (that is an understatement ^) | 19:43 |
| mordred | I kind of think we're at the point of being able to articulate the desire in a conversation with them | 19:43 |
| anteaya | what is Phacility? | 19:43 |
| mordred | and potentially have enlist their help in coming up with solutinos | 19:43 |
| ttx | anteaya: a company selling support on Phabricator | 19:43 |
| jeblair | but maintaining plugins for well-defined extension points is more palatable | 19:43 |
| ttx | they happen to control upstream pretty tightly | 19:43 |
| anteaya | ttx we need to get a contractor to get code upstream? | 19:43 |
| zaro | have we talked to any of our friends @ wikimedia whether would want to do the same things? | 19:43 |
| mordred | anteaya: nope, we can write the code if we want | 19:43 |
| pleia2 | (but we don't want to write php) | 19:44 |
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| pleia2 | :D | 19:44 |
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| ttx | mordred: but they have to the right to refuse it if it's not part of their vision for Phab | 19:44 |
| mordred | there is that - but also, we could probably have a non-contract discussion with them first | 19:44 |
| pleia2 | mordred: nods | 19:44 |
| ttx | Yes, we should start contacting them | 19:44 |
| mordred | and then figure out if it would be helpful to have a contract with them for them to accelerate things | 19:44 |
| mordred | might or might now | 19:44 |
| ttx | I've seen them react ... more gracefully to requests from wikimedia than from John Doe | 19:44 |
| mordred | not | 19:44 |
| anteaya | them being wikimedia or them being phabricator? | 19:45 |
| mordred | them being phacility | 19:45 |
| mordred | I mean, right now we | 19:45 |
| ttx | so maybe they could be receptive to our requests | 19:45 |
| mordred | yah | 19:45 |
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| ttx | Do we know anyone on that group, beyond the people at Wikimedia ? | 19:45 |
| mordred | I do not | 19:45 |
| ttx | and who should lead that contact with them ? I guess I can do it those days, but startign Sept I'll be more busy | 19:46 |
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| mordred | ttx: if you can start it off and get the ball rolling, I can pick it up when you get busy | 19:46 |
| ttx | ok, deal | 19:46 |
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| ttx | General comment, the code is pretty solid | 19:47 |
| mordred | yah. I agree with that | 19:47 |
| mordred | I thin kthey've done a good job | 19:47 |
| ttx | but they seem to have expanded scope much faster than they tied loose ends. Reminds me of another project | 19:47 |
| mordred | bah | 19:47 |
| ttx | for example their API is a big mess | 19:47 |
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| mordred | their API is clearly not the thing they find the most important | 19:48 |
| ttx | Reading https://secure.phabricator.com/T5873 made me a sad panda | 19:48 |
| ttx | that is all. I'll take the action of turning that wiki page into a set of Phabricator bugs and lead the charge from there | 19:49 |
| mordred | cool | 19:49 |
| mordred | and I'll help | 19:49 |
| mordred | while we're on the topic ... | 19:49 |
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| mordred | is there anyone around who wants to poke at making cauth speak openid? | 19:49 |
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| mordred | that's on my TDL and I have not made it far enough to working on it | 19:49 |
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| jeblair | mordred: link to cauth? | 19:50 |
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| jeblair | EmilienM: ^ know anyone who might be interested in that? | 19:51 |
| EmilienM | o/ | 19:51 |
| mordred | jeblair: looking | 19:51 |
| zaro | i don't think i'm the best person for this job, but if there are no takers then i am willing to give it a try. will need help though. | 19:52 |
| mordred | #link https://github.com/enovance/cauth | 19:52 |
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| EmilienM | jeblair: yes, mhu | 19:52 |
| EmilienM | https://github.com/mhuin | 19:52 |
| EmilienM | jeblair: we should contact him and see | 19:52 |
| jeblair | cool, let's do that | 19:53 |
| mordred | it's written in pecan/wsme - and we have openid consumer support in pecan/wsme in storyboard - so there should be directly leveragable code | 19:53 |
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| * mordred will hand him a very plump chicken in exchange for openid support that works against launchpad | 19:53 | |
| jeblair | this is the perfect transition to... | 19:53 |
| jeblair | #topic Storyboard Development | 19:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Storyboard Development (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:53 | |
| EmilienM | mordred: he likes chicken. | 19:54 |
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| jeblair | persia: ^ i think you added this to the agenda? | 19:54 |
| persia | I have been working with a firm that uses Storyboard in production, and with the changes in upstream maintenance, I have convinced them to assign a couple people to work on things. | 19:54 |
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| persia | jeblair: Yes, sorry, I fail at wiki editing | 19:54 |
| pleia2 | persia: wow, nice | 19:54 |
| tchaypo | someone uses storyboard in production? | 19:54 |
| persia | What I don't know is the best way for them to be productive WRT reviews, etc. | 19:54 |
| yolanda | persia, i'm glad to hear that | 19:54 |
| anteaya | persia: are they on irc? | 19:54 |
| persia | Note that this is *entirely separate* from any discussion about whether OpenStack uses Storyboard. | 19:54 |
| ttx | anteaya: yes | 19:54 |
| persia | anteaya: yes. | 19:54 |
| yolanda | i saw some new changes, i'm happy for that | 19:54 |
| tchaypo | this is exciting | 19:55 |
| greghaynes | tchaypo: technically I think we do too :) | 19:55 |
| anteaya | yay | 19:55 |
| ttx | I wonder if we should not spin it out of Infra and back to stackforge (only half kidding) and reset core there | 19:55 |
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| ttx | unless it's still a contender | 19:55 |
| jeblair | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-June/002880.html | 19:55 |
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| persia | I don't care where it lives, but I'd prefer to be able to use gerrit, etc. | 19:56 |
| jeblair | i wrote that message recently about the future of jjb, which, if we proceed with my zuulv3 proposal, we would no longer use in openstack-infra | 19:56 |
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| jeblair | i think a lot of the ideas about how to handle that transition could apply here too | 19:56 |
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| ttx | jeblair: rigth, I just want to not block them. jjb still has some infra people caring for it | 19:57 |
| jeblair | in general, i think openstack's primary interest in storyboard at this point in maintenance of our production system, and when we switch to maniphest, we won't care that much, but still would be happy to help it succeed | 19:57 |
| ttx | ok. I expect them to fork it if it becomes too painful anyway | 19:58 |
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| jeblair | indeed, always an option :) | 19:58 |
| fungi | back just in time for the end of the meeting! | 19:58 |
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| ttx | I just think we should adjust cores | 19:58 |
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| ttx | because the current set is pretty limited | 19:58 |
| jeblair | yeah, i think we can onboard new cores, and if needed, create a development branch, etc | 19:58 |
| ttx | especially if you factor in my ability to review JS | 19:59 |
| ttx | https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/187,members | 19:59 |
| jeblair | so if folks have suggestions for new cores, run them by me and i can look at adding them | 19:59 |
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| jeblair | and it's time, thanks all! | 20:00 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 7 20:00:11 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-07-07-19.02.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-07-07-19.02.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-07-07-19.02.log.html | 20:00 |
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| russellb | .... o/ | 20:01 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:01 |
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| * mestery lurks | 20:01 | |
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| flaper87 | o/ | 20:01 |
| * dougwig also lurks | 20:01 | |
| wshao | o/ | 20:02 |
| anteaya | ttx: they are gathering, I'll stop taking your time | 20:02 |
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| ttx | o/ | 20:02 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:02 |
| annegentle | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | jgriffith, lifeless, mordred, dtroyer, jeblair, jaypipes: around ? | 20:02 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:02 |
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| dtroyer | o/ | 20:02 |
| Rockyg | o/ | 20:02 |
| jaypipes | yup,. | 20:03 |
| geoffarnold | o/ | 20:03 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 7 20:03:02 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:03 |
| ttx | Alright! Our agenda today: | 20:03 |
| jgriffith | o/ | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
| * edleafe is also lurking | 20:03 | |
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| maishsk | o/ | 20:03 |
| ttx | And now for something completely different... a non-consensual topic | 20:03 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:03 |
| ttx | #topic Add neutron to starter-kit:compute | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add neutron to starter-kit:compute (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/196438 | 20:03 |
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| ttx | I'll timebox this one to 30min so that we have time left to cover other items | 20:03 |
| ttx | I summarized my view on this issue in a comment on the review this morning. | 20:04 |
| * jaypipes requests that we put this particular vote off for 2 weeks. | 20:04 | |
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| ttx | Basically I think the only viable option is to accept this, or consider that the situation is so broken that we can't even recommend a "starter kit" that is not a dead end | 20:04 |
| russellb | not sure what else to add other than what i've said on the review | 20:04 |
| ttx | jaypipes: what will 2 weeks give us ? | 20:04 |
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| jaypipes | ttx: a chance to get the updated networking guide docs done. | 20:04 |
| annegentle | so my sense is this question is one docs has wrestled with for years now. | 20:04 |
| dtroyer | my problem is just the timing…it feels bad to add a dangling pointer to something that isn't there (or finished?) | 20:04 |
| russellb | IMO, a tag like this should be guiding doc work, not be gated on it | 20:04 |
| mestery | huh? | 20:05 |
| ttx | jaypipes: in the mean time we recommend a dead end though | 20:05 |
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| mordred | I agree with russel | 20:05 |
| dougwig | jaypipes: the content is done. the install guide tweak is behind their conversion to RST. | 20:05 |
| mordred | gah | 20:05 |
| sdague | I do think there is a timing issue, because if we're recommending the 4b from the network guide | 20:05 |
| mordred | I agree with russellb | 20:05 |
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| markmcclain | russellb: ++ | 20:05 |
| mestery | +1000 russelb | 20:05 |
| lifeless | ttx: o/ | 20:05 |
| annegentle | And, even in the Ops Guide, we made decisions about what architectures we documented. | 20:05 |
| flaper87 | russellb: ++ | 20:05 |
| lifeless | sorry for late - this is ECHILD time | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | russellb: ++ | 20:05 |
| annegentle | and I agree, we need to ensure we know when the tag will be applied. | 20:05 |
| annegentle | heh on ECHILD | 20:05 |
| sdague | then we get people pointed at the install guide, and it's radically different from that, it causes pain and tears | 20:05 |
| annegentle | they are very error prone | 20:05 |
| annegentle | no tears | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | sdague: one of the justifications given for even having a tag like this was to drive changes elsewhere, including documentation | 20:06 |
| annegentle | there's no crying in OpenStack | 20:06 |
| russellb | i don't see the tag itself as something people are consuming, it's guiding work that people consume, like docs | 20:06 |
| dougwig | annegentle: lol | 20:06 |
| maishsk | annegentle: depends on who you ask ;) | 20:06 |
| edleafe | annegentle: oh, no - there's lots of crying! | 20:06 |
| jgriffith | I have a question... I thought one of the proposals regarding Big-Tent wsa competing projects? | 20:06 |
| russellb | and this sends a clear signal about what should be documented in starter docs | 20:06 |
| mordred | I think it's important for us to show leadership and intent. people have been asking for clarity from that from us for a while - and saying clearly "neutron is what we expect" should not be particularly controversial | 20:06 |
| russellb | mordred: +1 | 20:06 |
| mestery | mordred: well said sir | 20:06 |
| jgriffith | IMHO nova-net wins that competition in many cases | 20:06 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ok, so then there should be an updated patch to the tag doc right? | 20:06 |
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| maishsk | mordred +1 | 20:06 |
| sdague | because right now all this is is an add of a project | 20:06 |
| mordred | jgriffith: we need to be clear taht this is not a competition between nova-net and neutron | 20:06 |
| zaneb | russellb++ | 20:07 |
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| flaper87 | As others have also said in the review, one of the points of this tag is to not only show where to start from but also be the bases for something bigger | 20:07 |
| sdague | with no background information, no additional context of "we mean in this kind of configuration", etc. | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | it also shows where we are headed | 20:07 |
| mordred | jgriffith: nova-net is not what we want going forward, it just happens to still exist because $reasons | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | sdague: are you objecting to adding the project, or that the patch to the governance repo is somehow incomplete? | 20:07 |
| jgriffith | mordred: well, I kinda think for some it's become exactly that | 20:07 |
| sdague | dhellmann: incompleteness | 20:07 |
| mordred | jgriffith: right. we need to be much clearer about that | 20:07 |
| jgriffith | mordred: well, maybe the collective "we" in the room, but not myself | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | sdague: ok, I may be able to support that | 20:07 |
| jgriffith | I'd be thrilled to see nova-net live on forever | 20:07 |
| mordred | jgriffith: yes where we == the TC | 20:07 |
| jgriffith | mordred: but I see you're point | 20:08 |
| markmcclain | I'm still trying figure out what incompleteness there is? do we really thing there are folks waiting around just for us to pass this tag? | 20:08 |
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| ttx | flaper87: I agree starter kit is about growing after. Pointing people to an evolutionary dead end sounds counter productive at best | 20:08 |
| mordred | jgriffith: I totally respect you on that ... and honestly, i do not think the TC needs to say "nova-net should be deleted" | 20:08 |
| sdague | because I actually think that recommending http://docs.openstack.org/networking-guide/deploy_scenario4b.html as the starter kit is a good idea | 20:08 |
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| sdague | but this patch doesn't do that | 20:08 |
| mordred | I think the TC needs to say "neutron is the focus and the future" | 20:08 |
| mordred | sdague: I think the tag doesn't get that specific | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | mordred: ++ | 20:08 |
| jgriffith | mordred: yeah, so I'm cool with moving forward, but what would be interesting is going back to the idea of the neutron-on-training-wheels | 20:08 |
| sdague | mordred: however, the background document did | 20:08 |
| dtroyer | mordred: ++ but there might also need to be a Neutron starter kit…it's that big | 20:09 |
| jgriffith | ie helper script to just let you set it up EZ/PZ | 20:09 |
| mordred | sdague: I also think the starter guide should say "floating ips are a bad idea" - but the tag isn't quite that fine-grained :) | 20:09 |
| sdague | like it called out nova multihost | 20:09 |
| dougwig | jgriffith: have you read 4b from the deploy guide? | 20:09 |
| mordred | sdague: I'd be more than happy to amend the patch to put more info into the backgroudn doc | 20:09 |
| jgriffith | dougwig: I'll look at it again now... sorry, I have not | 20:09 |
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| dougwig | jgriffith: it's intended to be ez mode. | 20:09 |
| mordred | sdague: because there isa very clear "this is what you should look at to get started" part of this | 20:09 |
| sdague | mordred: I'd be happy with +1ing this with the more specific background and guidance with the configuration | 20:09 |
| mordred | annegentle: do we ahvea new name for 4b yet? :) | 20:09 |
| annegentle | dougwig: one Q I wanted to ask you is whether you saw a docs spec that says the install guide will document "provider networks with Linux bridge" I haven't seen that yet. | 20:10 |
| mordred | sdague: awesome | 20:10 |
| jgriffith | dougwig: intedend or is :) | 20:10 |
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| * mordred will take on that as a task for next week if everybody is good with that? | 20:10 | |
| dougwig | annegentle: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/191077 | 20:10 |
| russellb | jgriffith: is | 20:10 |
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| annegentle | mordred: 4b = provider networks with Linux bridge | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | lets just be careful not to turn the tag in documentation | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | just saying | 20:10 |
| annegentle | dougwig: ah it hasn't landed yet | 20:10 |
| mordred | flaper87: totally | 20:10 |
| russellb | 4b is just provider networks | 20:10 |
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| annegentle | russellb: 4a is OVS | 20:10 |
| russellb | right. | 20:10 |
| jaypipes | OK, so I thought starter-kit:compute was all about having a *simple* way to get compute resources up and running. One of the suggestions that I think sdague had on the review was to have TC members (preferably not Neutron devs) go and follow the install guide with neutron and see whether that "simple to install and get up and running for compute" objective was actually the case. This is the reason I was asking for a | 20:11 |
| jaypipes | dditional time. So I could go do that. | 20:11 |
| sdague | and I'd be even happier if the install guide lead with the 4b scenario | 20:11 |
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| dougwig | annegentle: right, but based on conversations with the docs folks, i'm not expecting any surprises there. | 20:11 |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:11 |
| edleafe | Is the intent for "starter kit" to be a base to grow from? If so, then it should include Neutron | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | hmm, I don't see anything in the tag doc that refers to specific parts of the install guide. | 20:11 |
| ttx | I like the idea of pointing people to ez-neutron (a.k.a. 4b) which is not as much of an evolutionary dead end | 20:11 |
| annegentle | the way we handled it in the Ops guide was "these features are supported by the example arch but are optional" | 20:11 |
| annegentle | #link http://docs.openstack.org/openstack-ops/content/example_architecture.html#example_architecture-nova | 20:11 |
| mordred | edleafe: I would hate for the starter kit to get you to a thing we want you to delete | 20:11 |
| maishsk | jaypipes: that is an awesome idea! | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | it seems like any changes outside of the governance repo should follow from this change | 20:11 |
| mestery | jaypipes: With regards to simple, I believe sdague also followed the guide and indicated cinder shoudl be removed if that was the case | 20:11 |
| mestery | given simplicity and all | 20:11 |
| annegentle | so even there, a dashboard is optional | 20:11 |
| ttx | edleafe: yes it is a starter kit, not an endgame | 20:11 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 20:12 |
| edleafe | mordred: well, yeah | 20:12 |
| jaypipes | mestery: perhaps that would indeed be the case. | 20:12 |
| mestery | jaypipes: Yup, that's my point | 20:12 |
| jgriffith | mestery: really? | 20:12 |
| dougwig | arguably we can point ALL people at 4b, since adding OVS or tenant networking later is straightforward. | 20:12 |
| mestery | Why stop with neutron? | 20:12 |
| jgriffith | mestery: hmm... ok | 20:12 |
| jaypipes | mestery: I'm not bashing Neutron, BTW. I'm asking for a little time to do some research. | 20:12 |
| mestery | Surely other things are complex | 20:12 |
| edleafe | ttx: precisely. That's why neutron should be included | 20:12 |
| lifeless | so yeah I'm totally confused here | 20:12 |
| mestery | jgriffith: Really | 20:12 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: well, there was in the initial patch | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | sdague: but we didn't approve that one, right? | 20:12 |
| jgriffith | mestery: I hardly see the comparison but that's fair enough | 20:12 |
| sdague | https://github.com/openstack/governance/commit/c3200862f5132f8154c5a5091d500f38a663f50c#diff-11bfc18e33f512c24fbd900652229c4dR186 | 20:12 |
| annegentle | and I don't know if it's still true, but for a while you couldn't install swift + dashboard only, you had to have identity, compute, and images iirc | 20:12 |
| lifeless | AIUI start-kit was -explicitly- 'not a scaled-down poc but a platform for learning' | 20:12 |
| jgriffith | mestery: if vgcreate is too difficult remove it | 20:12 |
| sdague | yes, we did, it apparently was changed | 20:12 |
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| edleafe | mestery: because nova-network is a dead-end | 20:13 |
| mestery | jgriffith: lol, it's all about perspetive my friend | 20:13 |
| annegentle | so we also need to ensure the technical feasibility of this use case | 20:13 |
| jgriffith | mestery: indeed | 20:13 |
| mordred | sdague: I don't really see where to put a mention of 4b in the tag doc - can we connect after the meeting and kibitz on that? | 20:13 |
| russellb | technical feasibility - this is very commonly used | 20:13 |
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| lifeless | So IMO it still should be 'the minimum needed to get compute', not 'the recommended components everywhere' | 20:13 |
| mordred | lifeless: right - but we don't want to teach someone one set of skills, then have those be totally unapplicable to a bigger deployment | 20:13 |
| markmcclain | I'm still not certain why we need to document 4b specifically? | 20:13 |
| lifeless | mordred: but we know we're going to do that | 20:14 |
| markmcclain | seems that the tag and the specifics of the starter should be decoupled | 20:14 |
| lifeless | mordred: sql auth skills are not applicable to SAML federation | 20:14 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: it's the minimum needed to get compute and grow from there | 20:14 |
| annegentle | markmcclain: as an api-compat way forward (I think) | 20:14 |
| markmcclain | we don't prescribe that nova should kvm | 20:14 |
| lifeless | flaper87: it was *explicitly* framed as *not-that* last I read it. | 20:14 |
| dougwig | can we dial back the rhetoric. nova-net, if useful for you, is not a dead end as long as someone wants to maintain it. and dissing one team vs another is also not productive. does 4b make things easy enough for everyone? if so, it's has many more branching out possibilities than nova-net. | 20:14 |
| markmcclain | the docs just point you that direction | 20:14 |
| zaneb | lifeless: it's supposed to be a starting point that people can expand from | 20:14 |
| mordred | lifeless: that's a bit different than "the conceptual model of nova-net and neutorn are completely different" | 20:14 |
| ttx | lifeless: it's name "starter" though | 20:14 |
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| ttx | so it's as explicit as it gets | 20:15 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: mmh, I actually remember it differently. I remember we saying this is a gate to compute with openstack | 20:15 |
| mordred | dougwig: I agree - I do not think we need to ditch anything or delete anything or make anyone feel bad about what they want | 20:15 |
| sdague | right, and I agree the growth path from nova-net to neutron is not very clear, I think there are a lot of comments in there about that in the review | 20:15 |
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| zaneb | lifeless: "[W]e'd like this to be a solid bit of 'seed corn' from which a larger and richer OpenStack deployment can be built out over time." <- doesn't get more explicit than that | 20:15 |
| flaper87 | with nova-net it'd be: "This is how you can get an openstack playground that you'll likely trash" | 20:15 |
| jaypipes | Again, I ask... can we please just give this vote another week so some of us can do some research? | 20:16 |
| sdague | so I'm happier with a simple neutron scenario that a user could expand more naturally, which I think we now kind of figured out with 4b | 20:16 |
| mestery | flaper87: When you put it that way | 20:16 |
| lifeless | zaneb: ok, I missed that getting in | 20:16 |
| flaper87 | mestery: :D | 20:16 |
| mordred | jaypipes: ++ | 20:16 |
| ttx | jaypipes: I'm fine with deferring. I just don't want us to be stuck too long | 20:16 |
| mordred | jaypipes: I believe the patch wants a rev as well | 20:16 |
| flaper87 | jaypipes: I'm good with deferring too | 20:16 |
| lifeless | but its internally inconsistent | 20:17 |
| jaypipes | just one week... | 20:17 |
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| flaper87 | and the patch needs to be updated anyay | 20:17 |
| lifeless | 'All projects must be a required to put a persistent VM on the network.' | 20:17 |
| lifeless | and | 20:17 |
| mordred | ttx: I'm going to work with sdague on seeing if we can get his converns met in the patch | 20:17 |
| sdague | delay is fine as well, it might even mean that we can have the install guide docs going forward | 20:17 |
| flaper87 | anyway* | 20:17 |
| lifeless | 'The projects in this tag should make it easy to add new OpenStack projects into such a deployment over time.' | 20:17 |
| lifeless | we can't have both, today. | 20:17 |
| Daviey | Will there be a starter-kit:neutron? | 20:17 |
| lifeless | if nova-net dies we can. | 20:17 |
| jgriffith | I'm with jaypipes if even "I" can get it setup and actually working this time I'll gladly upvote | 20:17 |
| sdague | annegentle: any idea what the timeline is for the install guide conversion to rst? | 20:17 |
| annegentle | what if for this release it's nova-net, and next release it's neutron, is that acceptable as long as the provider network scenario will offer API compat | 20:17 |
| markmcclain | jaypipes: I don't see what a week will yield? The other services don't have a prescriptive formula... we just save you need them in a starter | 20:17 |
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| sdague | annegentle: they aren't API compat | 20:17 |
| jgriffith | 1 week... or even 1 day to convince myself | 20:17 |
| annegentle | sdague: by release date, Install Guide is not relevant until release. So for now we have the Install Guides we have. | 20:18 |
| mordred | ttx: fun story - I can't WIP this patch :) | 20:18 |
| mestery | markmcclain: +1000 | 20:18 |
| sdague | that is part of the challenge | 20:18 |
| zaneb | lifeless: if you considered nova-net a separate project to Nova, there'd be no conflict | 20:18 |
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| lifeless | zaneb: indeed! | 20:18 |
| ttx | mordred: fun heh. You ened to prefix title with [WIP] | 20:18 |
| annegentle | sdague: ohh. | 20:18 |
| annegentle | sdague: is there any API compat? | 20:18 |
| russellb | i'm surprised it's taking this for people to actually go try to use neutron | 20:18 |
| russellb | but ok | 20:18 |
| mordred | annegentle, sdague: they aren't even conceptually compatible. the way you use them is very different | 20:18 |
| dougwig | annegentle: the upgrade is *not fun*. the sooner we can stop leading people that way, the better. IMO. | 20:18 |
| annegentle | sdague: because, what if "seed corn" for some is "give me an interop cloud" | 20:18 |
| lifeless | zaneb: if Nova considered nova-net a separate project we'd have had very different discussions over the last 18 months | 20:18 |
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| * mestery shrugges | 20:18 | |
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| mordred | annegentle: the differences in nova-net and neutron are giant | 20:18 |
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| * flaper87 helps mestery shrug | 20:18 | |
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| mordred | annegentle: MUCH bigger than the other interop differences | 20:19 |
| russellb | a week isn't harmful | 20:19 |
| jgriffith | mordred: +1 | 20:19 |
| lifeless | FWIW I'm a huge fan of getting folk on Neutron from the start | 20:19 |
| lifeless | but | 20:19 |
| jaypipes | markmcclain: it will ease my mind, that's all. | 20:19 |
| jaypipes | I don't want to vote no on this. | 20:19 |
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| lifeless | I also want to deliver the thing sdague reports the operators meetup asked for | 20:19 |
| zaneb | lifeless: I submit that you are arguing semantics at this point ;) | 20:19 |
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| lifeless | zaneb: aren't all arguments semantics? | 20:19 |
| lifeless | zaneb: :) | 20:19 |
| ttx | Alright, so mordred will work on a new patch, Jay will spend some time convincing himself, and we plan to have that back in two weeks | 20:20 |
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| zaneb | yes, but not all arguments are _only_ semantics ;) | 20:20 |
| Daviey | mordred: Has a gap analysis been drafted? | 20:20 |
| ttx | although I'll likely not be around in two weeks thanks to OSCON | 20:20 |
| jaypipes | tteggel: one week is fine. | 20:20 |
| mestery | A gap analysis? | 20:20 |
| mestery | YEs | 20:20 |
| russellb | Daviey: several of them | 20:20 |
| mestery | Last year | 20:20 |
| russellb | ffs | 20:20 |
| jaypipes | oops... ttx. | 20:20 |
| mestery | Many times | 20:20 |
| mestery | many many times | 20:20 |
| mestery | But | 20:20 |
| dougwig | a gap analysis is necessary for a nova-net vs neutron deprecation discussion. the starter-kit is not that. | 20:20 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:20 |
| ttx | Is my summary ok with everyone ? | 20:20 |
| markmcclain | jaypipes: ok.. I just don't see the state of world shifting in meaningful way | 20:20 |
| jaypipes | ttx: I think one week is fine. | 20:21 |
| sdague | right, the starter kit is a different thing | 20:21 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 20:21 |
| flaper87 | there seems to be consensus that we should defer to next week | 20:21 |
| ttx | jaypipes: one week it is | 20:21 |
| flaper87 | lets do it | 20:21 |
| mestery | If we can't agree on the starter kit thing here, deprecation seems pretty unlikely | 20:21 |
| flaper87 | ttx: it does | 20:21 |
| russellb | works for me | 20:21 |
| ttx | #agreed mordred will work on a new patch, Jay will spend some time convincing himself, and we plan to have that back in one week | 20:21 |
| mordred | mestery: yah man | 20:21 |
| jaypipes | markmcclain: the state of my world can change with an afternoon of me digging into a couple things. thanks for your understanding. :) | 20:21 |
| sdague | annegentle: so, is there no way to update the kilo guide to include this scenario? | 20:21 |
| ttx | didn't expect us to come to a conclusion this week anyway | 20:21 |
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| dougwig | for anyone non-neutron that digs into 4b and has issues, PLEASE get that feedback to us somehow. | 20:21 |
| annegentle | sdague: nor all the prior install guides and Ops Guide that have nova-net | 20:22 |
| sdague | annegentle: why? | 20:22 |
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| annegentle | sdague: I mean, of course anything is a matter of code. But wow man. That's a lot to ask. | 20:22 |
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| mordred | I'm fine with it being forward looking patches for the future | 20:22 |
| sdague | ok, I just get concerned with "hey, this is the starting point you should check out" and then no install guide support to get them there | 20:22 |
| annegentle | sdague: let's rewrite all the code releases so that nova-net isn't even possible to install and config? | 20:23 |
| annegentle | sdague: I mean come on. | 20:23 |
| russellb | sdague: right, i think this is the clear signal about what the docs should cover though .. | 20:23 |
| russellb | just a different way of looking at what the purpose is here | 20:23 |
| sdague | russellb: sure | 20:23 |
| annegentle | sdague: you could add a third path of course, we have ways to back port and publish | 20:23 |
| russellb | us playing in our governance repo doesn't automatically get people using our prescribed set | 20:23 |
| sdague | annegentle: right, that's what I mean, a 3rd path through the install guide | 20:23 |
| annegentle | sdague: but that would take away from other work and seems a bit disruptive for little gain when we can just wait another release | 20:23 |
| russellb | has to be "implemented" | 20:23 |
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| sdague | annegentle: ok | 20:23 |
| ttx | Alright, I propose we move on | 20:24 |
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| sdague | btw, if TC members haven't recently, I'd highly recommend actually walking a manual install through the install guide | 20:24 |
| annegentle | sdague: ++ | 20:24 |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:24 |
| ttx | feel free to continue that discussion over the week, irc ML review etc | 20:24 |
| sdague | it's pretty eye openning what we ask of folks | 20:24 |
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| flaper87 | +1 | 20:24 |
| ttx | I bet it is. | 20:25 |
| Rockyg | sdague: ++ | 20:25 |
| lifeless | sdague: clockwork orange eye opening style | 20:25 |
| lifeless | sdague: to be precise | 20:25 |
| annegentle | imagine testing it with packages that aren't quite done. across 3-4 distros | 20:25 |
| annegentle | on deadline | 20:25 |
| russellb | recommending manual install is a bit of fail on our part, anyway, but that's probably another discussion | 20:25 |
| jgriffith | sdague: I sadly go through this at least a couple of times each release cycle | 20:25 |
| sdague | yep | 20:25 |
| annegentle | russellb: heh. had that discussion many times | 20:25 |
| zaneb | sdague: as I understood it, the original purpose of this tag was for the TC to endorse what it thought should be front and center in the install guide. so I agree with russellb that there is no need to wait until after the fact | 20:25 |
| ttx | there is a reason why those automatic installers are so pretty | 20:25 |
| ttx | whi is a nice segway to our next topic | 20:25 |
| sdague | zaneb: yep, like I said, I'm +1 with the specific guidance, and will be more happy when the docs catch up | 20:26 |
| ttx | #topic Add Compass to OpenStack Projects | 20:26 |
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| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/196973 | 20:26 |
| ttx | I think Jay and Sean summarized my concerns about this one well | 20:26 |
| ttx | First there is the question of being a generic deployment framework -- this is not limited to OpenStack, in fact one could argue that there is nothing OpenStacky about it | 20:26 |
| wshao | Hi, I did reply to Sean and Jay's comments. | 20:26 |
| ttx | doesn't use any Oslo lib, uses Flask, duplicates recipes... | 20:26 |
| ttx | Second, I'm not sure we can consider Compass to follow the 4 opens, or at least not yet | 20:27 |
| ttx | They only had one IRC meeting, and that was last week | 20:27 |
| wshao | ttx: could you see my comments | 20:27 |
| ttx | There is not a single thread on the dev ML, beyond Rocky's announcement of the project in 2013 | 20:27 |
| ttx | reading | 20:27 |
| Rockyg | Wow, time flies! | 20:27 |
| ttx | heh | 20:27 |
| Rockyg | So, when compass started, there weren't recipes they could use. | 20:28 |
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| ttx | that said, it *is* shiny :) | 20:28 |
| ttx | while it feels like an interesting project, I just have trouble seeing the OpenStack in it. | 20:28 |
| Rockyg | maybe, it could now use ones in the openstack repo | 20:28 |
| lifeless | so there seem to be two concern in the reviews | 20:28 |
| lifeless | one - overlap | 20:28 |
| wshao | It is openstack centric even though I point out the extensibility part of it | 20:28 |
| lifeless | two - four opens | 20:28 |
| lifeless | I think the four opens is a concern. That needs fixing | 20:28 |
| wshao | lifeless: overlap with TripleO? | 20:28 |
| Rockyg | So, working on the 4 opens | 20:28 |
| lifeless | The overlap one though - we opened the door. We don't get to complain that folk want to walk through. | 20:29 |
| Rockyg | and there are projects accepted that don't seem to have a team yet. | 20:29 |
| sdague | Rockyg: which examples are those? | 20:29 |
| ttx | lifeless: the project setill needs to be connected to our mission though ? | 20:29 |
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| ttx | lifeless: but yeah, I see what you mean | 20:29 |
| mordred | ttx: it seems to be connected to our mission | 20:29 |
| lifeless | ttx: it is no less connected than pbr :) | 20:29 |
| Rockyg | Hey, you just said you want easier to install openstack ;-) | 20:29 |
| ttx | mordred, lifeless: fair enough | 20:29 |
| mordred | I agree with lifeless, I dont' think that can be a "go away" - but the four opens is a real important thing | 20:30 |
| Rockyg | sdague: looking for projects... | 20:30 |
| sdague | yeh, my concern is about the openness | 20:30 |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | yeah, that's much more important to me than overlap -- allowing overlap was supposed to be one of the points of the big tent change | 20:30 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ++ | 20:30 |
| wshao | It is good to have an alternative install approach (e.g, image-based vs script-based deployment). TripleO is the former, Compass is the latter. | 20:30 |
| ttx | mordred: for example, absence of reuse of any oslo lib falls into lack of cooperation / open development part | 20:31 |
| jaypipes | lifeless: we *do* absolutely get to consider overlap of RESTful APIs. | 20:31 |
| ttx | mordred: and will make up a poorer operational experience ? | 20:31 |
| zaneb | trademark search: 1769 Records(s) found | 20:31 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: why? | 20:31 |
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| * jaypipes also mutters something about including static artifacts in a source repo like https://github.com/stackforge/compass-core/tree/master/mibs | 20:31 | |
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| jaypipes | lifeless: because if you have two OpenStack Compute APIs, you're done for. | 20:32 |
| ttx | jaypipes: and more commits than reviews: more commits than reviews: http://stackalytics.com/report/contribution/compass-core/90 | 20:32 |
| ttx | and a pretty weird tree of versions: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/compass-web/tree/ | 20:32 |
| wshao | ttx: we allow installers to use openstack community chef cookbooks, and there is plan to use Ironic for OS provisioning phase of deployment | 20:32 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: I understood allowing competition to be one of the main enablers of the big tent | 20:32 |
| ttx | wshao: do you have plans to use cookbooks from the chef-openstack project ? Or keep your forked ones ? | 20:32 |
| russellb | jaypipes: yeah, the "lower" in the stack, the more sensitive i am to that kind of overlap | 20:32 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: so that the TC no longer has to pick the Right One. | 20:32 |
| ttx | lifeless: forking the cookbooks falls into my "useless diplication" doctrine | 20:33 |
| mestery | russellb: ++ | 20:33 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: I'm not saying we can't decide to care | 20:33 |
| ttx | duplication* | 20:33 |
| flaper87 | (back) | 20:33 |
| wshao | note on the commit/review stattisic: we were developing on dev/experimental branch and moved to master recently. | 20:33 |
| jaypipes | lifeless: APIs were *never* intended to have duplication. | 20:33 |
| ttx | wshao: oh, that explains it. Thanks | 20:33 |
| russellb | we should definitely care. | 20:33 |
| jaypipes | lifeless: in fact I remember specifically saying that API duplication was a major concern, much more than competing implementations of an API. | 20:33 |
| flaper87 | I'm really worried about the community aspect here. We may want to wait until the project is more integrated w/ openstack | 20:33 |
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| flaper87 | jaypipes: ++ | 20:34 |
| ttx | wshao: do you have any plans for more cooperation with openstack projects (think horizon, oslo, chef-cookbooks, etc.) once you are in ? | 20:34 |
| wshao | ttx: we plan to use community ones. | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: is there specific API duplication you're worried about here? | 20:34 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: ah ok | 20:34 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: I was talking competing implementations of same API | 20:34 |
| ttx | wshao: if yes, I don't see anything blocking, it may just be too soon | 20:34 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: not variants of the API | 20:34 |
| * dhellmann wonders who the "root" reviewer is on http://stackalytics.com/report/contribution/compass-core/90 | 20:34 | |
| Rockyg | We're hoping that moving it to OpenStack gets more people interested. But that also means we *have* to use dev to get people to know it's out there. | 20:34 |
| wshao | the forked ones will be phased out. recently, we added support for Ansible based install | 20:35 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: [though its hard to decouple those] | 20:35 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: ehm, yep. Things like GET /users is a pretty clear overlap ;) | 20:35 |
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| jaypipes | dhellmann: https://github.com/stackforge/compass-core/blob/master/compass/api/v1/api.py#L63 | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: is it the same name doing something different, or is it reproducing keystone? | 20:35 |
| Daviey | The wikipage is unclear to me, is it currently Cobbler centric - or is there a strong desire to switch to Ironic as the bare metal provisioning tool? | 20:35 |
| wshao | ttx: one we are in, we will work with chef-cookbooks, and Ironic for the near term | 20:35 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: doing something different. | 20:35 |
| flaper87 | Rockyg: to me, that needs to happen asap (integration with the rest of the community) | 20:35 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: for installers there's a bootstrap problem | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: ok, so what's the problem? | 20:35 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: if you depend on keystone, you have to install it first, but how do you do that? | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: yes, I've installed software before, thanks | 20:36 |
| Rockyg | flaper87: agreed. It's a matter of beatin^^^^^training them to sue the mailing list | 20:36 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: so I think you'll find that the world splits into two categories - those that do what tripleo did | 20:36 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: and everyone else. | 20:36 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: so you're saying you want Keystone's GET /users API to return one thing and Compass' GET /users API to return a completely different set of data? | 20:36 |
| wshao | jaypipes: our current auth model is primitive, keystone integration not done yet, due to resource constraints | 20:36 |
| ttx | My take on this is they should engage more with our community and behave more like an openstack project before they can apply. This may just be too soon. | 20:36 |
| Rockyg | One of the reasons we did stackforge as soon as possible was to get the team using the OpenStack ci process | 20:36 |
| sdague | Rockyg: so, I think that needs to happen before coming into openstack, not a promiss to do it once they do | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: the urls will be different, no? | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | Rockyg: lol, you'd be surprised to know that's a problem even in "old" OpenStack projects | 20:37 |
| ttx | for example, openstack projects do not have a directory per version. We use git tags. | 20:37 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: and AIUI fuel and uhm thingy from dell have their own user dbs | 20:37 |
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| mordred | lifeless: and neither are in openstack | 20:37 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: so - snark aside - my point is that this is not unusual for an installer | 20:37 |
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| wshao | hi everyone, I want to point out that we have worked with Plumgrid, Intel , Orange, etc. they will be more interested in this project if it is moved to Big Tent. | 20:37 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: but it's the same *intent* of the API call... GET /users in both systems is intended to return the system's user information. That is the overlap I am referring to. | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: I wouldn't expect it to be. That's my point with jaypipes. I'm confused as to why he thinks keystone is the only project with rights to the path /users | 20:37 |
| Rockyg | uh, last I heard, they weren't really interested in being "in" openstack? Just associated? | 20:38 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: gotchya | 20:38 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: other overlaps at the API functionality level include overlap with Tuskar's modeling of cluster resources. | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | but they are different systems, with different user databases, right? | 20:38 |
| sdague | and the fact that there is only a single person +2ing +Aing patches - http://stackalytics.com/?project_type=all&module=compass-core seems worrisome from the open perspective as well | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: that sounds like competition to me, isn't that what we wanted? | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | sdague: yes, that's a big concern | 20:38 |
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| flaper87 | wshao: Rockyg FWIW, people interested in being part of OpenStack should work towards that and not sit there waiting for things to happen. | 20:39 |
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| jaypipes | dhellmann: if Compass used GET /accounts to refer to the *exact same functionality* that Keystone's GET /users API call, it would still be overlapping API functionality, and not something we want to encourage. | 20:39 |
| mordred | Rockyg, sdague: yes. my concern is the open process parts | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | wshao: Rockyg not talking about you two, obviously | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | mordred: same here | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: ok, I think I'm missing something, so maybe we should talk about this outside of the meeting | 20:39 |
| mordred | Rockyg, wshao: there are a few key things that need to change before I think we can safely say "yes, you are clearly part of the family" | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | but I've yet to dive more into the projects | 20:39 |
| Rockyg | Agreed on open process is extremely important. | 20:39 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: sure, sounds good. | 20:39 |
| mordred | they're not terribly hard to change, and I'd personally be thrilled to see you back here when they're taken care of | 20:39 |
| mordred | I can't speak for the rest of the tc of course | 20:40 |
| ttx | OK, looks like this one needs to be further discussed on the review. Personally I think it's a bit early to be accepted, needs to behave like an openstack project for a bit | 20:40 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 20:40 |
| sdague | ttx: ++ | 20:40 |
| ttx | I see lots of positive steps | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | Rockyg: wshao mordred FWIW, I'm more than happy to help with guidance (if needed) on how to get there | 20:40 |
| ttx | like an IRC meeting being set up | 20:40 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: FTR, this same point is being brought up in Fuel's application to the openstack/ code namespace, and I specifically asked Dmitry to mention it in the commit message: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/199232/ | 20:40 |
| ttx | and I think it's good to enagge with us early | 20:40 |
| Rockyg | Can we WIP and give the current team a couple of months to "practice" the open stuff that's not happening? Let's get them working on Dev and meetings happening in IRC | 20:40 |
| wshao | flaper87: mordred: ok, will talk to you on the details | 20:40 |
| ttx | I expect us to come up with recommendations as you further engage with us | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: ok, I'll review that, too | 20:41 |
| jaypipes | cheers | 20:41 |
| ttx | for example drop those version directories from http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/compass-web/tree/ that make my release eyes bleed | 20:41 |
| sdague | Rockyg: that sounds like a good plan | 20:41 |
| flaper87 | wshao: Rockyg and remember, one of the best ways to get answers is the m-l | 20:41 |
| mordred | Rockyg: totally! sounds great | 20:41 |
| flaper87 | ;) | 20:41 |
| lifeless | I haven't checked the dependencies yet either | 20:41 |
| wshao | ok cool. | 20:42 |
| ttx | #agreed Let's WIP this one and engage with Compass folks to help them behave more like an openstack project and reduce duplication where possible | 20:42 |
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| Rockyg | Fantastic! I think this will provide more incentive to make it happen. | 20:42 |
| lifeless | I'm happy to provide guidance too | 20:42 |
| ttx | OK next topic (we'll skip next topic since proposer agreed to rework her proposal) | 20:42 |
| Rockyg | Thanks lifeless and flaper87! | 20:42 |
| ttx | #topic Apply tc-approved-release tag | 20:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Apply tc-approved-release tag (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:42 | |
| wshao | Thanks everyone! | 20:42 |
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| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/198295 | 20:42 |
| ttx | I realized that we actually never applied the tc-approved-release tag after we defined it. | 20:43 |
| Rockyg | one more question....IRC for group....should it be 3openstack-compass? | 20:43 |
| ttx | We just said that it would initially apply to projects that had the "integrated-release" tag | 20:43 |
| lifeless | Rockyg: we see both, but #openstack-compass would be the most common pattern | 20:43 |
| ttx | So I proposed such a change, the amended it following mark's remark | 20:43 |
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| flaper87 | Rockyg: anytime | 20:43 |
| ttx | then* | 20:43 |
| Rockyg | Cool Thanks! | 20:43 |
| ttx | please reapply votes | 20:43 |
| ttx | happy to answer questions if any | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | I've a side question on this topic. I read the tag page again and I was a bit confused on how we get other projects tagged as `tc-approved-release`. Does the request need to come from DefCore? | 20:44 |
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| lifeless | flaper87: from the board yes | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | flaper87: yes | 20:44 |
| lifeless | its all a bit terrible :) | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: I think we worded it specifically the defcore committee, not just the board | 20:44 |
| russellb | we could do it ourselves if we wanted to | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | Can it come from other members of the tc ? | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | Asking because I think there are other projects that could also be tagged :) | 20:44 |
| ttx | flaper87: we kept that intentionally vague. The tag is defined by the TC. We hinted that defcore would definitely be a good source | 20:44 |
| russellb | we just said that's when we'll care | 20:44 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: yes, but thats a subcommittee so effectively identical | 20:44 |
| russellb | it doesn't really matter much unless they care to make use of capabilities in a given project | 20:44 |
| mordred | yah | 20:45 |
| ttx | it's really just a process tag to solve a bylwas conundrum | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: it's worded "DefCore", yes | 20:45 |
| maishsk | just as a side note was LBaaS also not deemed as not ready for production - or has that changed? | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: ^ | 20:45 |
| russellb | otherwise tagging a project doesn't do anything useful | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | yup | 20:45 |
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| sdague | flaper87: it was basically just lazy evaluation on the tag | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | ok | 20:45 |
| ttx | markmcclain: what about lbaas ? | 20:45 |
| mordred | flaper87: basically, the intent was "at some point, someone in the user community, ops or end users, is going to step up and request something be in" | 20:45 |
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| dhellmann | lifeless: sort of, but yeah, since defcore wouldn't use the thing just because we said so, going through them means there's actual interest | 20:45 |
| jeblair | lifeless, Rockyg: (yes, #openstack-* is the preferred form for freenode technical/policy reasons) | 20:45 |
| markmcclain | seems like the ttx: lbaas v2 is ready | 20:45 |
| sdague | there is so much in there that's not getting any defcore specification yet anyway, they have a ton of headroom before other things need to be added | 20:46 |
| markmcclain | s/seems that the// | 20:46 |
| sdague | and let it be demand driven for the trademark | 20:46 |
| ttx | ok, got 9 yes, will approve now | 20:46 |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:46 |
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| flaper87 | mordred: but in order for that to be in, I guess we also need to check on DefCore b/w, right? | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | sdague: exactly my understanding | 20:46 |
| russellb | flaper87: for what to be in | 20:46 |
| ttx | approved, thx | 20:46 |
| ttx | #topic Remove the 'integrated-release' tag | 20:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Remove the 'integrated-release' tag (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:47 | |
| ttx | So, now that we actually applied the tc-approved-release tag we should be able to get rid of the legacy "integrated-release" tag | 20:47 |
| ttx | I proposed that in: | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | russellb: sorry, for projects to be tagged as 'tc-approved-release' | 20:47 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/198302 | 20:47 |
| Rockyg | Uh, wasn't defcore's tag interop? | 20:47 |
| ttx | If you think we can't do that yet, I'd like to get a feel of what is missing, so that I can work toward that before the end of the cycle | 20:47 |
| mordred | flaper87: yah. I mean, right now the general vibe is not "zomg need more things" ... it's "please stop adding more things" ... at some point that may chage | 20:47 |
| sdague | Rockyg: this is the super set from which defcore can select | 20:47 |
| ttx | Rockyg: as specified in the bylaws | 20:47 |
| zaneb | I'd like to see more of the criteria that the TC evaluated when adding projects to the integrated release split out into their own tags | 20:48 |
| russellb | bylaws use the name "TC approved release" - tag is named that way to clarify what it's implementing | 20:48 |
| flaper87 | mordred: roger, that was my feeling too. | 20:48 |
| Rockyg | Ah. I don't think Defcore is too concerned, then. they only require the interop. The integrated is kind of a warning flag of "maybe sometime soon" | 20:48 |
| russellb | zaneb: same here, but i don't really see a need to keep the legacy tag anymore | 20:48 |
| sdague | russellb: ++ | 20:48 |
| zaneb | yeah, I don't see a reason not to kill it | 20:48 |
| ttx | zaneb: any suggestion ? | 20:49 |
| russellb | it's basically a dead tag, but i'm totally with you | 20:49 |
| zaneb | just seemed like an appropriate time to mention | 20:49 |
| zaneb | that replacements would be nice :) | 20:49 |
| russellb | takes more work than it seems at first to drive a tag to consensus though | 20:49 |
| ttx | russellb: ok, I have an idea of a tag WG to aggressively research and propose that, next topic | 20:49 |
| russellb | zaneb: feel free to pick something and push it :) | 20:49 |
| flaper87 | russellb: zaneb ++ | 20:49 |
| russellb | ttx: nice | 20:49 |
| zaneb | ENOTIME :( | 20:49 |
| Rockyg | From a defcore perspective, that's good. It adds some aging to it ;-) | 20:49 |
| sdague | yeh, honestly API contract guaruntee levels, Upgrade models would be good ones | 20:49 |
| ttx | ok, one more vote and we can kill the beast | 20:50 |
| mordred | KILL THE BEAST | 20:50 |
| russellb | it was a friendly beast though | 20:50 |
| sdague | I'm mostly tagged out for this cycle though | 20:50 |
| russellb | retire it with kindness | 20:50 |
| ttx | took us a year to kill it approximately | 20:50 |
| russellb | sdague: heh | 20:50 |
| ttx | that's a tough beast | 20:50 |
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| ttx | alright approving in 30 sec | 20:50 |
| Rockyg | nobody want to see the process of making tags or sausages | 20:50 |
| jeblair | i like that release's mission is now to serve "various components" and horizon's mission is now to serve "all openstack projects" | 20:51 |
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| david-lyle | jeblair: will rework soon | 20:51 |
| ttx | #topic Workgroup reports | 20:51 |
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| jeblair | david-lyle: something about a framework, i imagine? :) | 20:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Workgroup reports (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:51 | |
| david-lyle | exactly | 20:51 |
| ttx | Thx everyone, those horizontal patches in projects.yaml are a bit of a pain to pass, so good to be quick :) | 20:52 |
| ttx | * Project team guide | 20:52 |
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| jeblair | i still need to make publish jobs, sorry | 20:52 |
| ttx | Doug and I pushed a number of edits, I will continue to do so this week. So please review: | 20:52 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/project-team-guide+is:open,n,z | 20:52 |
| ttx | flaper87: do you plan to finish the open development chapter, or should someone take it over ? | 20:52 |
| ttx | (I think once those are in we can start publishing it and iterate from that.) | 20:52 |
| lifeless | markmcclain and I *still* haven't synced. | 20:53 |
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| lifeless | OTOH the constraints stuff is now into cleanup phase | 20:53 |
| ttx | flaper87: ? | 20:53 |
| flaper87 | ttx: I plan to finish, sorry, this is my pre-holidays week | 20:53 |
| flaper87 | finish it* | 20:53 |
| lifeless | so that huge time committment is shrinking rapidly | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | I'll try to complete my work there tomorrow (or the day after) | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: \o/ | 20:54 |
| ttx | flaper87: col thx | 20:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | so I should share that I have been trying to write up some why behind the process (right now its nova specific), but I should maybe try push that into a more cross project form: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Nova/Liberty_Release_Schedule | 20:54 |
| ttx | * Communications | 20:54 |
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| flaper87 | (having a huge lag right now) | 20:54 |
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| ttx | johnthetubaguy: I'll read that and see if anything is generally applicable | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | I think we have enough material for another post but I won't have much b/w this week. annegentle ? | 20:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: cool, its a brain dump right now, I can help with splitting that in two at a later point | 20:55 |
| * dhellmann has to drop off early | 20:55 | |
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| ttx | * Other workgroups | 20:56 |
| ttx | So as I said earlier once I'm done with overhauling the release tags I might form a workgroup to proactively define other tags | 20:56 |
| jeblair | johnthetubaguy: i like the nova-specific narrative referencing other sources of info; nice way to make it accessible without duplicating | 20:56 |
| ttx | Like find nice questions we should provide answers for, or things we exprtessed in integrated-release that we don't communicate anymore | 20:56 |
| ttx | if interested let me know | 20:56 |
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| johnthetubaguy | jeblair: thanks, yeah, trying to reference general topics where possible | 20:57 |
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| ttx | annegentle: anything on the comms side ? will you have bw for a post this week ? | 20:57 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:57 | |
| ttx | There was a recent thread on Kolla plans for using GPLv3'd Ansible modules | 20:58 |
| mestery | johnthetubaguy: It's awesome work for sure, and defintely interested in seeing it more cross project. Thanks for that! | 20:58 |
| annegentle | I can do a post this week, sure. | 20:58 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-July/068612.html | 20:58 |
| markmcclain | ttx: we're running low on chairs for the cross-project meeting chairs | 20:58 |
| markmcclain | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting#Proposed_agenda | 20:58 |
| markmcclain | oops.. https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting#Chair_rotation | 20:58 |
| ttx | markmcclain: indeed. especially with me on holiday next week theoretically and traveling the week after | 20:58 |
| ttx | I'm fine doing the TC meeting on holiday, but not the cross-project one | 20:59 |
| ttx | so please add yourselves to the rotation there ! | 20:59 |
| ttx | PTLs welcome too. | 20:59 |
| markmcclain | ttx: I guess we know where the line is drawn :) | 20:59 |
| jeblair | ttx: just to be clear, are we welcome to chair the meeting or join you on holiday? | 21:00 |
| ttx | If you have a strong opinion on the GPLv3 kolla issue, please chime on thread. Apparently mordred was involved in that discussion somewhere | 21:00 |
| ttx | jeblair: both | 21:00 |
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| russellb | ttx: count me in for the tags group | 21:00 |
| jeblair | aww, shucks | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | jeblair: the later | 21:00 |
| ttx | In other news, the CFP for Tokyo Summit is closing next week. Remember there is full overlap with the Design Summit this time, so any talk you give is likely to generate painful conflicts for you | 21:00 |
| ttx | Last words, anyone ? | 21:00 |
| fungi | people give talks at that thing? ;) | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | tahnks ? :) | 21:01 |
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| flaper87 | or thanks | 21:01 |
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| ttx | alright... | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 7 21:01:27 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-07-07-20.03.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-07-07-20.03.txt | 21:01 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-07-07-20.03.log.html | 21:01 |
| ttx | markmcclain: floor is yours! | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | courtesy ping PTLs: adrian_otto boris-42 bswartz david-lyle devananda dims dtroyer emilienm flaper87 gordc hyakuhei isviridov | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | courtesy ping PTLs: j^2 jeblair johnthetubaguy kiall loquacities mestery morganfainberg mtreinish nikhil_k notmyname rakhmerov | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | courtesy ping PTLs: redrobot SergeyLukjanov slagle SlickNik smelikyan stevebaker thingee thinrichs ttx | 21:01 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:01 |
| thingee | o/ | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | #startmeeting crossproject | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 7 21:01:55 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is markmcclain. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
| tpatil | o/ | 21:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
| j^2 | ,/ | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:02 | |
| stevebaker | \o | 21:02 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'crossproject' | 21:02 |
| gordc | o/ | 21:02 |
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| dtroyer | o/ | 21:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 21:02 |
| mtreinish | o/ | 21:02 |
| markmcclain | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting Agenda | 21:02 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 21:02 |
| * geoffarnold lurking | 21:02 | |
| markmcclain | #info The M-Release will be called Meiji (明治) | 21:02 |
| etoews | o/ ping me if needed | 21:02 |
| markmcclain | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-July/068718.html | 21:02 |
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| edleafe | o/ | 21:03 |
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| Rockyg | o/ | 21:03 |
| mestery | o/ | 21:03 |
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| notmyname | here | 21:04 |
| stevebaker | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eau5KnckMTA | 21:04 |
| markmcclain | We're also in need of volunteers to chair this meeting in late July and August... feel free to add your name to the wiki. Members of TC will help you get setup | 21:04 |
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| markmcclain | #topic Horizontal Team Announcements | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Horizontal Team Announcements (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:04 | |
| *** amakarov is now known as amakarov_away | 21:05 | |
| ttx | On the release management side, two things: | 21:05 |
| ttx | I summarized the final plan for stable releases last week: | 21:05 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-July/068400.html | 21:05 |
| ttx | I also started working on overhauling the release model tags, to match the new models we support in Liberty, and make it clearer what the options are: | 21:05 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/198789/ | 21:05 |
| ttx | Still WIP but early comments welcome | 21:06 |
| ttx | EOF | 21:06 |
| * nikhil_k sneaks in | 21:06 | |
| david-lyle | ls | 21:06 |
| redrobot | o/ | 21:07 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ttx: I never saw python-**client as aligned with a cycle, but I guess it is a little bit | 21:07 |
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| fungi | as dependencies of api servers it is | 21:08 |
| fungi | hence the reason we eventually ended up with stable branches so we could release stable updates under caps to guard against breaking changes | 21:08 |
| gordc | johnthetubaguy: i think it is now since we created all the stable branches to match requirements. | 21:08 |
| gordc | err that ^ | 21:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, good point, I guess they are aligned now, if only in a dependency sense | 21:09 |
| fungi | takes us back to the whole "you can use it as a client library, but also our servers use it to talk to one another" paradigm which is somewhat irreconcilable | 21:09 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: it used to not have stable branches at all. It now has | 21:09 |
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| ttx | so it's kind of linked now | 21:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: yeah, not sure I had clocked in impact of that till just now | 21:10 |
| ttx | Anyway, I think we can move on | 21:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | yep | 21:10 |
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| markmcclain | any other announcements? | 21:10 |
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| markmcclain | #topic New API Guidelines ready for cross project review | 21:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New API Guidelines ready for cross project review (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:11 | |
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| markmcclain | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-July/068682.html | 21:11 |
| markmcclain | etoews: listed 7 guideline ready for final review please make sure to take a look | 21:11 |
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| markmcclain | not certain there's any other discussion, so we can move on | 21:12 |
| markmcclain | #topic Is Eventlet Best Practices ready for TC? | 21:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Is Eventlet Best Practices ready for TC? (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:12 | |
| markmcclain | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/154642/ | 21:12 |
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| markmcclain | This is not a spec in the true meaning... really a collection of best practices | 21:13 |
| ttx | unless there is some -1 vote on this I guess we should consider it as ready as it will ever be and approve it at TC level | 21:13 |
| ttx | next week | 21:13 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: agreed just wanted to give a final look before requesting it on the TC agenda | 21:13 |
| markmcclain | #topic Return request ID to caller | 21:14 |
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| markmcclain | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/156508/ | 21:14 |
| tpatil | Now, we have 2 solutions to return request id from client | 21:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | for the record, I love the pattern of sharing the best practices | 21:14 |
| tpatil | 1) Add a new method get_previous_request_id to return X-Openstack-Request-Id | 21:14 |
| markmcclain | johnthetubaguy: ++ | 21:14 |
| tpatil | 2) Register a callback method with the client which will be invoked after it gets a response from OpenStack service (This solution is suggested by Brant), Thanks Brant for this wonderful solution | 21:14 |
| tpatil | Implementation wise, both the solutions requires minimal changes to the respective python client code base | 21:14 |
| tpatil | Need feedback on which way to go | 21:15 |
| Rockyg | FYI. There are a bunch of old BPs that seem to implement some of this stuff (and I can't find them right now) | 21:15 |
| bknudson | I'm fine with either one. I'm just not a big fan of thread-local, probably due to not having used it much. | 21:15 |
| Rockyg | It appears there was an attempt in 2014/2014 to make this happen and some of it is coded already. | 21:15 |
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| tpatil | I'm inclined towards Solution #2 | 21:16 |
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| jungleboyj | I would like to see this added. Don't have a strong feeling on the implementation. | 21:16 |
| lifeless | ugh | 21:17 |
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| lifeless | both those options are poor | 21:17 |
| lifeless | can I propose #3? | 21:17 |
| lifeless | return structured data | 21:17 |
| Rockyg | So, the requestIDs might already exist in some/all project and only need access added to clients | 21:17 |
| lifeless | don't call forward, and don't use thread locals. Neither are needed. | 21:17 |
| Rockyg | lifeless: +1 | 21:17 |
| lifeless | I have -very- strong feelings about this. | 21:17 |
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| tpatil | lifeless: We have considered that before, but due to compatibility issue we had to drop that idea. | 21:18 |
| Rockyg | syslog RFC has a structured field in the header | 21:18 |
| lifeless | tpatil: What compatibility issue? | 21:18 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I know there was talk of not breaking backwards compatibility, but I am sure we can do both somehow | 21:18 |
| lifeless | tpatil: we're going to end up paying for whatever API is written up forever. | 21:18 |
| tpatil | lifeless: if we decide to return structured data from client to caller, then we would need to make several changes to the OpenStack core project using clients. | 21:18 |
| lifeless | tpatil: there are lots of ways to gracefully change return types - kw flags to signal, new method names - being two of the most common | 21:19 |
| nikhil_k | #2 has a problem that you may not get the req id even after getting a correct response from the API. you can see a 5xx in the req-id call and tell the user wrongly that request has failed. | 21:19 |
| lifeless | tpatil: yes, and you'll need to make several changes to the OpenStack core projects to do this anyway. | 21:19 |
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| lifeless | tpatil: hidden global behaviours (which #1 and #2 are) are bug-traps. | 21:19 |
| nikhil_k | agree, somewhat | 21:20 |
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| tpatil | nikhil_k: we can call callback method only if case of error > 400 | 21:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | so the other thing, is maybe just add this in the new SDK, to speed up the deprecation of the older clients? | 21:20 |
| lifeless | IIRC the apis generally return a dict anyhow right ? | 21:20 |
| lifeless | so just add another key in the dict | 21:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | lifeless: honestly thats what I assumed this was before I read the spec | 21:21 |
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| lifeless | [I may be remembering the wrong layer]. Anyhow, happy to do design closer to the code - can you point me at the specific methods being called that are a problem ? | 21:21 |
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| johnthetubaguy | tpatil: do we have a prototype we could look at, that might get an answer quicker? | 21:22 |
| tpatil | for solution #2, we can provide POC code by tomorrow. | 21:22 |
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| lifeless | tpatil: #2 is also not acceptable | 21:23 |
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| lifeless | tpatil: I'm sorry to be so hard-and-fast here, but this is fundamental plumbing affecting everything | 21:24 |
| bknudson | I think a lot of keystoneclient methods return lists rather than a dict | 21:24 |
| lifeless | tpatil: Design the right API, and then we can figure out how to get from A to B. | 21:24 |
| tpatil | lifeless: what's the issue with solution #2? can you please elaborate more on this? | 21:24 |
| bknudson | like list_users | 21:24 |
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| lifeless | tpatil: its got all the same quirks as TLS does - e.g. its going to impact client sharing across threads | 21:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | lifeless: are you thinking about having some "response" wrapper returned that include the return value and the request-id, and maybe some flag when you create the client to say, wrap responses to include the request id, so the client opts into the new return values? | 21:25 |
| lifeless | tpatil: the clients have been stateless from the callers perspective so far as I understand it | 21:25 |
| bknudson | if you want to implement tls in your callback then go ahead. | 21:25 |
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| tpatil | lifeless: even in case of client sharing across threads, in the callback method we have response object which details out everything like URL and request id. | 21:26 |
| lifeless | tpatil: they wrap a specific auth token, but are not more stateful than that. This is a bug change. | 21:26 |
| lifeless | tpatil: which then forces the receiver of that callback to be globally synchronised with all threads of execution so that it knows what to do with the thing it received. | 21:26 |
| nikhil_k | win 49 | 21:26 |
| lifeless | johnthetubaguy: for instance, yes. | 21:27 |
| tpatil | lifeless: what's the issue with solution #1? | 21:27 |
| Rockyg | point of information: Anyone look at http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.middleware/tree/oslo_middleware/request_id.py? | 21:27 |
| lifeless | tpatil: stateful and thus racy: if a decorator were to make a second request before the first obtained its request id, we'd lose it | 21:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | lifeless: I think I get your point, that approach is cleaner than suddenly having the client become secretly statefull | 21:28 |
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| lifeless | side effects make code hard to reason about | 21:28 |
| tpatil | lifeless: that's right, but as a developer you shouldn't be doing that..wrong coding practice. | 21:28 |
| lifeless | and create traps. I'm giving concrete examples of the traps that can occur. | 21:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | Rockyg: you mean the thing as used here: https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/etc/nova/api-paste.ini#L88 | 21:28 |
| lifeless | tpatil: as a developer we shouldn't be creating such traps for our future selves to suffer from. | 21:28 |
| Rockyg | yup | 21:29 |
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| bknudson | lifeless: so what would your proposal look like? change every API to return an object that has a .request_id attribute? | 21:29 |
| Rockyg | johnthetubaguy: It seems Nova implemented it a while ago.... | 21:29 |
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| johnthetubaguy | Rockyg: yeah, its been working well for us, AFAIK | 21:29 |
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| lifeless | bknudson: there's a few ways that come to mind. One would be to yes, put an attribute on the existing responses. | 21:30 |
| bknudson | we'd probably have to provide a wrapper that gets returned. | 21:30 |
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| johnthetubaguy | Rockyg: my life would be a living hell without it | 21:30 |
| Rockyg | johnthetubaguy: shouldn't this be the model for other projects? | 21:30 |
| lifeless | bknudson: another would be to be returning structured data that includes both the api value, and the metadata about the transaction [of which requestid is the first] | 21:30 |
| lifeless | Rockyg: thats the other side | 21:31 |
| bknudson | lifeless: can that be backwards compatible? | 21:31 |
| nikhil_k | ummmm | 21:31 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: some, if not all, of the clients return objects not dictionaries | 21:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | Rockyg: I guess I had wrongly assumed most other folks had already adopted that middleware, when they could, but yeah, its the other side of the problem here | 21:31 |
| bknudson | otherwise you're rewriting every application | 21:31 |
| dhellmann | the rest APIs return dictionaries, but the client turns them into classes | 21:31 |
| lifeless | Rockyg: it ensures that in the server there is a request id created and that it gets back to the client | 21:31 |
| nikhil_k | lifeless: what other transation details? mind sharing a couple? | 21:31 |
| Rockyg | lifeless: sort of a linked list first key: orig, ID, second ke : caller id, new ....last key last id, end | 21:32 |
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| johnthetubaguy | https://github.com/openstack/python-novaclient/blob/master/novaclient/v2/keypairs.py#L47 | 21:32 |
| lifeless | nikhil_k: I don't have any- I'm talking extensability. E.g. what if we wanted to know the HTTP return code (even though its a success) | 21:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I think we return objects not dicts | 21:33 |
| lifeless | nikhil_k: like - was it a cached value | 21:33 |
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| nikhil_k | I see, yeah that seems relevant | 21:33 |
| bknudson | I assume list() returns a list of objects | 21:33 |
| lifeless | https://github.com/openstack/python-novaclient/blob/master/novaclient/base.py#L64 | 21:34 |
| lifeless | is _list | 21:34 |
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| lifeless | yes, | 21:35 |
| lifeless | it returns a list of objects | 21:35 |
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| lifeless | so one entirely compatible way would be: | 21:36 |
| lifeless | class ListWithMeta(list): | 21:36 |
| lifeless | def __init__(self, values, metadata): | 21:36 |
| lifeless | super(ListWithMeta, self).__init__(values) | 21:36 |
| lifeless | self.metadata = metadata | 21:36 |
| bknudson | use paste! | 21:36 |
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| lifeless | its 4 lines | 21:36 |
| lifeless | you can live :) | 21:36 |
| lifeless | just use that in _list | 21:37 |
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| lifeless | and stash whatever we want in .metadata - e.g. a dict with keys like request-id | 21:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | lifeless: yeah, it seems simple enough | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | does the neutron client return objects, or does it still use simple data structures? | 21:37 |
| tpatil | lifeless: good solution | 21:37 |
| lifeless | its not 10000% risk-free, but it should cover most issues | 21:38 |
| Rockyg | ++ | 21:38 |
| bknudson | I thought the goal was to not have to make a lot of changes to the code | 21:38 |
| lifeless | take a similar approach across the board at the point actual calls are made | 21:38 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: I think with lifeless' proposal only the client code would change, because we would be returning compatible objects that had more features | 21:38 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: dictionaries | 21:38 |
| johnthetubaguy | bknudson: it may have been, but it should really be to make life easy of the users of the client | 21:38 |
| bknudson | as long as someone's willing to do the work I'm fine with it | 21:39 |
| dhellmann | markmcclain: ok, so those will need to be DictWithMeta or something | 21:39 |
| bknudson | maybe a chance to have the clients use some library code | 21:39 |
| bknudson | because the novaclient code looks very similar to the keystoneclient code | 21:39 |
| stevebaker | some clients return dicts, others real objects | 21:39 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: nearly all responses are in an enclosing dict, so a metavar could be added | 21:39 |
| dhellmann | markmcclain: that's another way to do it | 21:39 |
| lifeless | so look | 21:39 |
| lifeless | I understand the minimum-size-of-change argument | 21:40 |
| lifeless | but we can't build robust scalable and *easy to change* code on a bed of hidden state and fragile things | 21:40 |
| lifeless | the client patterns are -old-. They didn't anticipate where we are today. | 21:40 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: http://paste.openstack.org/show/353082/ | 21:41 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so I can't help thinking about adding this in the newer SDK, and just killing off the older ones, but that also feels like its cheating | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: the challenge is with pushing the needed changes through all of the consuming projects | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy: I think the sdk team does not really want it to be tied up in inter-server communication pattersn | 21:42 |
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| lifeless | dhellmann: OTOH request-id is something clients want | 21:42 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: I filed one of the originating bugs here to have that available to debug things easily from shell | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: I agree. I'm not sure we need all of the patterns you're foreseeing, though | 21:43 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: (without having to manually read the raw HTTP coming back) | 21:43 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: sure | 21:43 |
| lifeless | so what do we want to achieve here? | 21:43 |
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| bknudson | it would be interesting to see a sample implementation of proposal #3. | 21:43 |
| lifeless | the neutron dict approach would be amenable to a new key | 21:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: not sure we agreed on what to use for inter-server coms yet, but I still think end users will want the request-id | 21:43 |
| lifeless | but having something consistent and usable across the board would be ideal IMO | 21:44 |
| bknudson | there's probably some APIs that don't return anything now | 21:44 |
| Rockyg | johnthetubaguy: ++ | 21:44 |
| dhellmann | I've been trying to balance the needs of this one new feature with the amount of effort I know it will be to make potentially breaking changes to the way the clients work | 21:44 |
| bknudson | so those would have to change to return something | 21:44 |
| bknudson | it's not a problem with backwards-compat, but just the amount of work reqd to find all these and change them. | 21:44 |
| lifeless | so | 21:44 |
| bknudson | we'll also have to find a way to get the request ID when an exception is raised | 21:44 |
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| lifeless | you could start with the servers, from there identify the api calls actually made cross-process, fix just those in a consistent pattern | 21:45 |
| dhellmann | we can add extra attributes to exceptions pretty safely | 21:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | bknudson: same solution right? | 21:45 |
| lifeless | yah | 21:45 |
| lifeless | same solution | 21:45 |
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| bknudson | yes, it's easy to a field to an exception, but you have to also change all the code that raises exception to set the value and I don't know how much code that is | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: looking at the way a lot of this code relies on base class methods, I think once they fix those to start returning enhanced objects it's going to apply to a lot of the calls | 21:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | so Nova can be a fun source of cross server communication, if you are looking for a place to start looking :) | 21:46 |
| lifeless | I'd like to be able to write a wrapper function e.g. 'call_and_log' that would make the call, log the request id, and be transparent | 21:46 |
| bknudson | to add a field | 21:46 |
| tpatil | definitely, it's going to be a big change though | 21:46 |
| lifeless | bknudson: huh, no. You only need to change the places its raised in the client, because you're adding the request id client side | 21:47 |
| lifeless | bknudson: much more contained | 21:47 |
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| dhellmann | lifeless: I think he means there may be many such places, though | 21:47 |
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| lifeless | dhellmann: ah. I assumed grep within a client would be fairly easy. | 21:47 |
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| dhellmann | easy to find, harder to update and test | 21:48 |
| dhellmann | but maybe we're getting into details we don't need to worry about right now | 21:48 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: kind of seems we're headed that direction | 21:48 |
| lifeless | so if you look at the novaclient code | 21:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think we should prototype this, and see how bad it really is | 21:48 |
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| dhellmann | this new proposal to return "enhanced" versions of the objects feels a little hacky, but I'd like to see what it really looks like | 21:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | nova has a base resource, so it might be just adding it there | 21:49 |
| dhellmann | if it's really transparent, then I think it is better than the thread local solution | 21:49 |
| tpatil | let me work on this solution and come up with the POC code by next week | 21:49 |
| Rockyg | Sounds like Nova is the code base to be the guinea pig ;-) | 21:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: agreed it feels hacky, but it seems a better trade off, but I could imagine changing my mind when I saw code | 21:49 |
| lifeless | tpatil: cool, thank you | 21:49 |
| bknudson | tpatil: yes, thanks! | 21:50 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy: right | 21:50 |
| Rockyg | Excellent tpatil! | 21:50 |
| tpatil | Thanks everyone | 21:50 |
| markmcclain | good discussion everyone | 21:50 |
| markmcclain | #topic Open discussion | 21:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:50 | |
| johnthetubaguy | tpatil: thanks for pushing on this, its really needs doing, appreciate it! | 21:50 |
| tpatil | johnthetubaguy: That's on my plate for this release from long time | 21:51 |
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| markmcclain | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Travel_Support_Program | 21:51 |
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| markmcclain | There's about a month left to apply, so if know candidates who this will benefit make sure they know about the deadline | 21:52 |
| markmcclain | Anything else for this week? | 21:52 |
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| ttx | Volunteers for chairing the next two weeks ? | 21:53 |
| markmcclain | nikhil_k will leading next week unless the wiki is stale | 21:53 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think I signed up for the end of the month | 21:53 |
| ttx | oh, right weeks after | 21:53 |
| nikhil_k | i am on schedule | 21:53 |
| * ttx goes to bed then | 21:53 | |
| markmcclain | johnthetubaguy: yep see you on the list | 21:54 |
| markmcclain | we do need a volunteer for the 21st | 21:54 |
| markmcclain | johnthetubaguy: thanks for volunteering | 21:54 |
| Rockyg | 21st is OSCon | 21:54 |
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| johnthetubaguy | hmm, its the Nova midcycle too, oops | 21:55 |
| bknudson | next week is keystone midcycle | 21:55 |
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| markmcclain | yeah... so if there's a topic that's of big interest and conflicts with a mid-cycle make sure to note it on the wiki | 21:55 |
| markmcclain | so we can get the right people here to discuss | 21:56 |
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| markmcclain | Thanks all for joining this week. Have a good rest of your week. | 21:56 |
| markmcclain | #endmeeting | 21:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:56 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 7 21:56:40 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:56 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-07-07-21.01.html | 21:56 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-07-07-21.01.txt | 21:56 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-07-07-21.01.log.html | 21:56 |
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