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| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 3 08:00:43 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:00 |
| anteaya | hello | 08:00 |
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| lennyb_ | anteaya: Hi | 08:01 |
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| anteaya | hey lennyb_ | 08:01 |
| anteaya | how are you today? | 08:01 |
| lennyb_ | hard to say yet, it's still morning | 08:02 |
| lennyb_ | how are you? | 08:02 |
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| anteaya | good thanks | 08:02 |
| anteaya | jet lag made getting up at 3am easy today | 08:02 |
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| anteaya | did you make any progress updating your wikipage? | 08:02 |
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| lennyb_ | anteaya: yes, I've updated it after our meeting. | 08:03 |
| anteaya | wonderful | 08:03 |
| anteaya | link? | 08:03 |
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| lennyb_ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ThirdPartySystems/Mellanox_CI | 08:03 |
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| anteaya | thank you | 08:04 |
| anteaya | you understood the salient point, communicating the reuse of the node | 08:05 |
| lennyb_ | how was Tokia city? I've never been to Japan | 08:05 |
| anteaya | thank you | 08:05 |
| anteaya | well for me it was overwhelming | 08:05 |
| anteaya | but I doubt most people had a similar experience to mine | 08:05 |
| anteaya | and I don't eat fish | 08:05 |
| lennyb_ | anteaya: what do you mean by 'salient point' ? | 08:05 |
| anteaya | the important part of our conversation last meeting | 08:05 |
| anteaya | the fact the node is being reused | 08:06 |
| anteaya | so thank you | 08:06 |
| lennyb_ | anteaya: I am not sure now | 08:06 |
| anteaya | what part are you not sure about? | 08:06 |
| anteaya | I was offering you a compliment | 08:06 |
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| lennyb_ | I guess I missed it :). | 08:07 |
| anteaya | no worries | 08:07 |
| anteaya | :) | 08:07 |
| anteaya | so japanese food has a lot of fish in it | 08:07 |
| anteaya | and fish broth | 08:07 |
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| anteaya | so I ate Indian food all week | 08:08 |
| anteaya | :) | 08:08 |
| anteaya | but it is really really lovely | 08:08 |
| lennyb_ | :) it's in the sea, they have to eat sea food :) | 08:08 |
| anteaya | very calm | 08:08 |
| anteaya | exactly | 08:08 |
| anteaya | makes perfect sense | 08:08 |
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| anteaya | tokyo has one of the lowest crime rates in the world I am told | 08:09 |
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| anteaya | I felt totally safe walking around by myself anywhere in the city | 08:09 |
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| anteaya | it was marvelous | 08:09 |
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| lennyb_ | I am sorry I've missed this summit. | 08:09 |
| anteaya | me too | 08:09 |
| anteaya | it would have been nice to see you | 08:09 |
| anteaya | do you think you might be able to make it to Austin in the spring? | 08:10 |
| lennyb_ | you too....maybe next summit. | 08:10 |
| anteaya | sorry, Austin in April | 08:10 |
| anteaya | hopefully you can come to Texas | 08:10 |
| lennyb_ | btw, I have nothing, except Tokio that I've missed, to discuss today, and I guess it's a late night at your place | 08:11 |
| anteaya | it is okay I am up | 08:12 |
| anteaya | had to have something to eat to satisfy the jet lag | 08:12 |
| anteaya | been awake for about 2 hours before the meeting | 08:12 |
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| * lennyb_ looking for link | 08:14 | |
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| lennyb_ | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/glance/+bug/1484588 | 08:15 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1484588 in Glance "glance startup gives ERROR: Could not bind to 0.0.0.0:9292 after trying for 30 seconds on stable-kilo after attempting service restart" [Undecided,Confirmed] | 08:15 |
| anteaya | lennyb_: have you hit this bug? | 08:16 |
| lennyb_ | anteaya: .... recalled that there was somthing I wanted to ask. There is a glance issue that we see quite often, but cant reproduce it | 08:16 |
| anteaya | interesting | 08:17 |
| anteaya | what is happening when you see it? | 08:17 |
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| lennyb_ | stack fails, but if I run this command manually, it passes. | 08:17 |
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| lennyb_ | looks like glance needs more time for starting | 08:18 |
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| anteaya | interesting | 08:18 |
| anteaya | hmmmmm | 08:18 |
| anteaya | flaper87: are you awake yet? | 08:19 |
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| anteaya | flaper87: lennyb_ is seeing a glance bug, I was wondering if perhaps you might be awake and be able to share some input | 08:19 |
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| lennyb_ | it's might be related to the fact that we are reusing the node, so probably some of the processes sometimes not clearly exit even after ./clean.sh | 08:20 |
| anteaya | that is possilble yes | 08:21 |
| lennyb_ | #link http://10.209.32.40:8080/job/Neutron-ML2-Sriov/3727/console | 08:21 |
| lennyb_ | #paste http://paste.openstack.org/show/477833/ | 08:22 |
| anteaya | I can't seem to access those logs | 08:22 |
| lennyb_ | and something similar that started to happen few days ago and most likely related to this as well. I had no time to debug it yet | 08:23 |
| anteaya | they aren't loading for me | 08:23 |
| anteaya | the paste appears to be giving me an error that is different than the glance error | 08:23 |
| lennyb_ | #link http://144.76.193.39/ci-artifacts/223226/8/Neutron-ML2-Sriov/logs/stack.sh.log.gz | 08:24 |
| lennyb_ | sorry, wrong jenkins | 08:24 |
| anteaya | ah okay now I can see those logs | 08:24 |
| anteaya | what should I be looking for in the logs? | 08:24 |
| lennyb_ | error in the end of file | 08:25 |
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| anteaya | Could not determine a suitable URL for the plugin | 08:25 |
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| anteaya | that one? | 08:25 |
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| lennyb_ | yeap | 08:25 |
| * lennyb_ looking for glance log | 08:26 | |
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| anteaya | okay so are you saying the Could not determine a suitable URL for the plugin error is related to the glance error? | 08:26 |
| anteaya | or are they two seperate errors? | 08:26 |
| lennyb_ | anteaya: sorry. they are 2 separate errors. | 08:27 |
| lennyb_ | #link http://144.76.193.39/ci-artifacts/239721/1/Neutron-ML2-MLNX/console.html.gz | 08:27 |
| lennyb_ | glance issue | 08:27 |
| anteaya | ah okay | 08:27 |
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| lennyb_ | #pASTE | 08:28 |
| lennyb_ | #paste http://paste.openstack.org/show/477834/ | 08:28 |
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| anteaya | you say you see this error but can't reproduce it | 08:29 |
| anteaya | the glance error | 08:29 |
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| lennyb_ | yes, it's not reproducible easily, but it happen quite a lot. I have some time now, so I will try to debug/reproduce it | 08:30 |
| anteaya | okay but it happens when you reinstall devstack? | 08:30 |
| anteaya | do you remove devstack when you finish and reclone it? | 08:31 |
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| lennyb_ | yes, but not always. yes I run ./clean.sh; sudo rm -rf /opt/stack; and even kill all python procs after it | 08:31 |
| anteaya | okay | 08:31 |
| anteaya | devstack was never meant to be brought up and down, it was meant to be used once and destroyed | 08:32 |
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| anteaya | actually not being able to restart devstack is a feature since it prevents folks from using devstack in deployment | 08:32 |
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| anteaya | can you remove devstack at the end of every test run and reclone it? | 08:33 |
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| lennyb_ | yes, I am removing and reclone it, by the way from what I saw, reclone only removes *.pyo, *.pyc files | 08:33 |
| anteaya | tell me again why you need to reuse the node | 08:34 |
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| anteaya | rather than create a new node for each test | 08:35 |
| lennyb_ | a HW configuration and OS installation is something that takes time and efford | 08:35 |
| anteaya | okay how much time? | 08:36 |
| lennyb_ | I guess with a proper scripts it will take 30min | 08:36 |
| anteaya | that doesn't seem like too much time to me | 08:37 |
| anteaya | is there some other part I don't understand? | 08:37 |
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| lennyb_ | our tests take from 30-50mins, and we are triggered by neutron, nova, tempest, cinder and internal developments, so adding additional 30mins... I need to make some calculations again | 08:40 |
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| anteaya | okay | 08:40 |
| anteaya | well I appreciate you talking to me about this | 08:40 |
| anteaya | but you are using devstack in a way it was never designed to be used in | 08:40 |
| anteaya | so that may be the source of the issue | 08:41 |
| anteaya | I want to help you | 08:41 |
| anteaya | to me using devstack the way it was meant to be used seems like the best direction | 08:41 |
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| lennyb_ | thanks, btw, I am hitting more bugs this way :) | 08:41 |
| anteaya | yeah | 08:41 |
| anteaya | fixing your own bugs is wonderful | 08:42 |
| anteaya | hitting devstack bugs that may not be fixed because devstack isnt' meant to be used like this seems like a waste of your time | 08:42 |
| lennyb_ | actually I was talking about glance:). ok I will try to debug this issue and update you if/when I will find smthing | 08:42 |
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| anteaya | sure | 08:42 |
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| anteaya | and yes the glance bug might be due to how you are reusing devstack | 08:43 |
| anteaya | and if so, it may not be fixed | 08:43 |
| lennyb_ | i see | 08:43 |
| anteaya | just wanted to share that with you as a possiblity | 08:43 |
| anteaya | I don't know, but before you but a lot of time into it | 08:44 |
| anteaya | when folks find bugs restarting devstack we tell them not to | 08:44 |
| anteaya | but to use a fresh devstack | 08:44 |
| flaper87 | anteaya: here now, reading the backlog. | 08:45 |
| lennyb_ | ok, but as I said I am not restarting devstack. I clean and reinstall it each time. But I see your point. Thanks you. | 08:45 |
| anteaya | flaper87: thank you | 08:45 |
| lennyb_ | anteaya: irc question, if I may, what tools are you using to be notified when you are offline or not not here? | 08:46 |
| anteaya | ah I use weechat in a vm | 08:47 |
| anteaya | and ssh into it, so weechat is connected regardless of whether my laptop is powered on or off | 08:47 |
| lennyb_ | thanks, I will check it | 08:47 |
| anteaya | and when I am offline I recieve no notifications | 08:47 |
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| anteaya | and when I am online and someone uses my nick the channel name and buffer number are highlighted | 08:48 |
| anteaya | some people use their phone to recieve notifications from irc, I don't do that | 08:48 |
| lennyb_ | phone seems like a nice idea, I will check it as well | 08:48 |
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| anteaya | sure it depends on how you like to interact | 08:49 |
| anteaya | when I am offline I need my private time | 08:49 |
| bkero | I can't count the amount of times I have done that, then had to turn it off again in a few days. :) | 08:49 |
| anteaya | bkero: turn what off, the phone notifications? | 08:49 |
| bkero | yeah | 08:50 |
| lennyb_ | I do want to know when someone uses my name, regardless if I am on/off line or in front of the channel | 08:50 |
| bkero | anteaya: I get too many pings :) | 08:50 |
| anteaya | lennyb_: then that is an option open to you | 08:50 |
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| anteaya | bkero: it is what happens when you are popular | 08:50 |
| bkero | It was doing about 200+ notifications per day | 08:50 |
| bkero | and I could definitely tell when Google's cloud messaging would have a delay (often). | 08:51 |
| anteaya | bkero: wow, do you fix bugs or something | 08:51 |
| bkero | anteaya: Haha, don't ask me to fix your bugs. :P | 08:51 |
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| lennyb_ | bkero: any android app recommendations ? | 08:52 |
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| anteaya | flaper87: any feedback from backscroll? | 08:52 |
| lennyb_ | bkero: I promise not to ping you often :) | 08:52 |
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| flaper87 | anteaya: not yet, sorry! But I will provide it :) lennyb_ feel free to ping me for more feedback | 08:53 |
| flaper87 | I see Stuart has commented on the bug already | 08:53 |
| flaper87 | I'll read in more detail | 08:53 |
| anteaya | flaper87: well do you feel it is a glance bug? | 08:53 |
| bkero | lennyb_: NotifyMyAndroid | 08:54 |
| bkero | There are plugins to use it from weechat, irssi, and likely znc. | 08:54 |
| flaper87 | anteaya: I don't think it is | 08:54 |
| anteaya | flaper87: okay that helps, thank you | 08:54 |
| flaper87 | np, I'll dig more into this | 08:54 |
| anteaya | lennyb_: so check back on that bug report and with flaper87 | 08:54 |
| anteaya | flaper87: thank you | 08:54 |
| lennyb_ | flaper87,anteaya,breko: thanks | 08:55 |
| anteaya | lennyb_: thanks for mentioning what you are experiencing | 08:55 |
| anteaya | we have 5 more mintues left | 08:55 |
| anteaya | anything more to say here? | 08:56 |
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| anteaya | okay I will wrap up | 08:57 |
| anteaya | thanks all for your kind attendance and participation | 08:57 |
| anteaya | see you next week | 08:57 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 08:57 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 08:57 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 3 08:57:24 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:57 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-11-03-08.00.html | 08:57 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-11-03-08.00.txt | 08:57 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-11-03-08.00.log.html | 08:57 |
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| alex_xu | #startmeeting nova api | 12:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 3 12:00:21 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is alex_xu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 12:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 12:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_api' | 12:00 |
| alex_xu | hi, who is here today? | 12:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 12:00 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: hi | 12:01 |
| alex_xu | not sure people get back to work | 12:01 |
| jichen | o/ | 12:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, its quite sleepy on IRC at the moment | 12:01 |
| alex_xu | jichen: hi | 12:01 |
| jichen | alex_xu: hi, seems no people working :) | 12:02 |
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| alex_xu | jichen: yea, I'm thinking maybe we should cancel meeting this week | 12:02 |
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| johnthetubaguy | well, we can try keep it short, and kick things off | 12:03 |
| alex_xu | ok | 12:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | wondering if there are any blueprints I forgot to approve that folks said they were going to create in our last meeting? | 12:03 |
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| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: i guess most of thing is ok | 12:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool | 12:04 |
| alex_xu | there is action from last meeting, gmann_ create bp for microversion top bottom and changed testing | 12:04 |
| alex_xu | but I didn't saw that bp yet | 12:04 |
| alex_xu | probably check with gmann next time | 12:04 |
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| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: hi, for api concept doc and api reference doc, the only way to get people involve is file low hanging fruits? | 12:05 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I think we can put things into the etherpad, linking to a blueprint | 12:05 |
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| johnthetubaguy | creating lots of little bugs seems like a big pain | 12:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | an ML post to advertise who we are tracking things, and a general call to action seems like a good plan | 12:06 |
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| jichen | alex_xu: is this something related to bp complete-todo-in-api-concept-doc ? | 12:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | thats the one, and there are some API reference doc bugs too, I think | 12:07 |
| jichen | ok, I am working on some of them ,will track the etherpad | 12:07 |
| alex_xu | jichen: yea | 12:07 |
| alex_xu | jichen: thanks :) | 12:07 |
| jichen | alex_xu: :) | 12:07 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: you mean the little bugs for api reference? the api concept already have bp | 12:09 |
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| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: yeah | 12:10 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: and we still want to maintain the wadl api reference, right? | 12:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: for now, I think we have to | 12:10 |
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| johnthetubaguy | while we get the swagger sorted | 12:10 |
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| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: ok | 12:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | now the nice bit, is I think we can just cut and paste all the details from the reference into the swagger based doc | 12:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | at least I think thats what the doc folks were wanting us to do, as a starting point | 12:11 |
| alex_xu | +1 | 12:11 |
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| alex_xu | improve the doc and implement swagger at sametime | 12:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool, so process wise, alex_xu I will put you down as the contact for the priority? | 12:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: +1 | 12:11 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: yea, no problem | 12:11 |
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| johnthetubaguy | cool, I will add in sdague too, mostly of the service catalog bits | 12:12 |
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| alex_xu | cool, I think this week I can just work on prepare the track of api doc stuff. and adverties it | 12:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | so this meeting time is super late for many of the folks here, I am wondering if we want to try an alternating meeting? | 12:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: sounds like a really good goal, I like that | 12:13 |
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| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: super early you mean? | 12:13 |
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| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: only late for Asia | 12:14 |
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| johnthetubaguy | true, its great for me, its lunchtime, but thinking we could try one thats better for you folks in Asia | 12:14 |
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| jichen | it's around 6-7 am in US | 12:14 |
| alex_xu | yea, I'm afraid if more early, sdague can't join anymore :) | 12:15 |
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| johnthetubaguy | true | 12:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess your morning is too late of east coast, so maybe this is the best we can do | 12:15 |
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| johnthetubaguy | anyways, just keen to make sure folks don't need to attend meetings at crazy times, if we can easily avoid it | 12:16 |
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| alex_xu | yea, let me check the time later, to see if there is better one. if I found one I will propose it | 12:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool | 12:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | maybe we are done for today then? | 12:17 |
| * edleafe yawns and starts reading the scrollback | 12:17 | |
| alex_xu | yea, no more from me | 12:17 |
| * alex_xu waves to edleafe | 12:18 | |
| johnthetubaguy | I don't think there was anything major from the design summit really, that was more telling folks what we are up to in the end | 12:18 |
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| jichen | +1 | 12:18 |
| alex_xu | yea | 12:18 |
| alex_xu | but looks like we still have lot of thing to do this release | 12:18 |
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| alex_xu | we will talk all of those next meeting | 12:19 |
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| johnthetubaguy | +1 :) | 12:19 |
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| johnthetubaguy | really excited about fixing the docs, will make a big impact for our users | 12:19 |
| alex_xu | yea | 12:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | and auto-generating should really help us do it more efficiently :) | 12:20 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: yea, that will end the pain from api doc | 12:20 |
| alex_xu | if no more question, let's end the meeting early | 12:20 |
| alex_xu | 3... | 12:21 |
| alex_xu | 2.. | 12:21 |
| alex_xu | 1. | 12:21 |
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| alex_xu | thanks all! | 12:21 |
| jichen | thanks~ | 12:21 |
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| alex_xu | #endmeeting | 12:21 |
| edleafe | but I just got here! :) | 12:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 12:21 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 3 12:21:33 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 12:21 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-11-03-12.00.html | 12:21 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-11-03-12.00.txt | 12:21 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-11-03-12.00.log.html | 12:21 |
| alex_xu | edleafe: :) | 12:21 |
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| Qiming | #startmeeting senlin | 12:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 3 12:59:52 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 12:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 12:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 12:59 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 12:59 |
| Qiming | hello | 13:00 |
| yanyanhu | hi | 13:00 |
| elynn | Hi | 13:00 |
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| Qiming | evening | 13:00 |
| HAIWEI | hi | 13:00 |
| Qiming | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda | 13:00 |
| Qiming | please check the meeting agenda and see if you have things to add | 13:00 |
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| Qiming | the only thing I have in mind is about mitaka plan | 13:01 |
| Qiming | let's start with it | 13:01 |
| Qiming | #topic Mitaka work items | 13:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mitaka work items (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:01 | |
| Qiming | so we have several places that document our previous work items/plan | 13:02 |
| Qiming | yanyanhu has helped revise the TODO.rst file | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | yes, we now have etherpad, TODO.rst and also blueprint I think | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | https://review.openstack.org/240764 | 13:03 |
| Qiming | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/240764/2/TODO.rst | 13:03 |
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| Qiming | we may need to consolidate backlogs into the TODO.rst file | 13:03 |
| Qiming | or at most we can maintain a single etherpad page for collaborative editing | 13:04 |
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| yanyanhu | agree with this | 13:04 |
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| Qiming | let's do some editings, :) | 13:05 |
| HAIWEI | just saw the Mitaka tasks, about placement policy, is Multi-region different from multi-cloud? | 13:05 |
| Qiming | I'm moving liberty items to the mitaka items page | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | they should be different | 13:05 |
| HAIWEI | i thought they were the same | 13:06 |
| Qiming | multi-cloud may have more options than multi-region, HAIWEI | 13:07 |
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| Qiming | liberty items cleaned, :) | 13:07 |
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| yanyanhu | Qiming, do we need to list all possible workitems in etherpad? | 13:09 |
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| Qiming | let's move our meetup items into the mitaka items, and then we compare the list with the TODO.rst revision | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | I guess maybe we can just record those items with lower priority in TODO? | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:09 |
| HAIWEI | Or specify the work items to Mitaka-1? | 13:10 |
| Qiming | we cannot edit the TODO.rst file directly | 13:10 |
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| elynn | Do we need a specs folder for BP design? | 13:10 |
| HAIWEI | maybe we should | 13:10 |
| Qiming | HAIWEI, we need a list of all work items, then we prioritize them | 13:11 |
| Qiming | then we set our goal for mitaka-1 | 13:11 |
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| HAIWEI | ok | 13:11 |
| Qiming | elynn, we have been doing things a little bit different from other openstack projects | 13:12 |
| Qiming | we have two files maintained in the code base: TODO.rst file for workitems that doesn't require a blueprint or spec | 13:12 |
| Qiming | FEATURES.rst for things (most of which are about mid-term/long-term goals) we will do in future, and they all needs some detailed design before being worked on | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | or maybe each time we pick up a work item from TODO.rst, we file a blueprint/spec for it? | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | and when the bp/spec is completed, we remove the item from TODO list | 13:14 |
| Qiming | items in TODO.rst are not the place for bug reports | 13:14 |
| yanyanhu | yep | 13:14 |
| Qiming | please use launchpad for bug reports, we track bugs there | 13:14 |
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| HAIWEI | yes, I think we should be strict for the bug fix, if the patch is fixing a bug, we should file the bug in launchpad first | 13:15 |
| Qiming | is this clear for everyone? | 13:15 |
| yanyanhu | HAIWEI, agree | 13:15 |
| Qiming | agreed | 13:15 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:15 |
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| elynn | yes | 13:15 |
| lixinhui | yes | 13:15 |
| HAIWEI | I am clear about it | 13:15 |
| Qiming | okay, so we will have several things to maintain, mostly follow the community practices | 13:16 |
| Qiming | speaking of specs, we may need it soon | 13:16 |
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| Qiming | if it is about a new feature, or a huge refactor, we need a plan/discussion before working on it | 13:17 |
| Qiming | that's what specs are used for | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | yea | 13:17 |
| Qiming | my etherpad connection is very unstable at the moment | 13:18 |
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| Qiming | seems having two etherpad pages open is not a good idea | 13:19 |
| Qiming | let's focus on the mitaka meetup page | 13:20 |
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| yanyanhu | ok | 13:20 |
| Qiming | delete items that are already merged into the TODO.rst file | 13:21 |
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| Qiming | then we have a clear picture of where we are heading, :) | 13:21 |
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| yanyanhu | hi, Qiming, or maybe we keep this page for some people we want to check the result of our discussion in Tokyo meetup? | 13:21 |
| Qiming | API consistency has been merged, right? | 13:21 |
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| yanyanhu | since somebody may not got the chance to join the discussion | 13:22 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes | 13:22 |
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| elynn | That's me | 13:22 |
| Qiming | yanyanhu, don't think so, we'd better maintain information in the same place | 13:22 |
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| Qiming | scatter things everywhere will only cause confusion | 13:22 |
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| yanyanhu | ok | 13:22 |
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| Qiming | need check existing API WG guidelines and find the gaps | 13:23 |
| Qiming | this is not merged, right? | 13:23 |
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| yanyanhu | yes, I think so | 13:23 |
| Qiming | API versioning is not merged, but it is of low priority, let's focus on v1 at present | 13:23 |
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| Qiming | yanyanhu, for the items mentioned, I'm leaving them there, pls help merge them to TODO.rst and FEATURE.rst respectively, offline | 13:24 |
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| yanyanhu | ok | 13:24 |
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| Qiming | elynn, lixinhui ... you were not at the meetup | 13:26 |
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| Qiming | please speak up if you have questions, :) | 13:26 |
| elynn | So finally, which etherpad do we maintain? | 13:26 |
| Qiming | senlin-mitaka-workitems | 13:26 |
| Qiming | on etherpad, we only maintain this single page, for weekly meetings | 13:27 |
| elynn | ok, and just saw that webhook will be rename to receiver? | 13:27 |
| Qiming | right, that was discussed during meetup | 13:28 |
| Qiming | webhook is a special type of receiver | 13:28 |
| Qiming | we want the senlin API as stable as possible, after all, it is a contract with senlin service users | 13:29 |
| Qiming | other types of receivers may include message queues etc | 13:29 |
| elynn | I see. | 13:29 |
| Qiming | if we have webhook only api, we will have a lot of difficulty to deprecate it | 13:30 |
| Qiming | the lessons we learnt ... don't even try to deprecate anything, :) | 13:30 |
| elynn | That's right, backward compatible is not an easy thing. | 13:31 |
| Qiming | elynn, heat resource type support is clear right? | 13:31 |
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| Qiming | it should be okay to say that we only support one type of receivers | 13:31 |
| elynn | Yes, after the senlinclient patch is merged, I can start to work on senlin plugin in heat. | 13:31 |
| Qiming | cluster, node, profile ... these resources are merged into sdk now | 13:32 |
| Qiming | so no blocker to support them in heat, except for the senlinclient refactor | 13:32 |
| Qiming | yanyanhu has helped tested the new interface, it seems work well | 13:33 |
| elynn | But we still need get_file support for senlinclient and heatclient. | 13:33 |
| yanyanhu | yes, I think it has been ready | 13:33 |
| Qiming | we need to bump client version to 0.1.5 soon, so your heat resource type work and the senlin-dashboard can move on | 13:33 |
| elynn | yes, needs a new version after refactor. | 13:34 |
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| elynn | Speaking of openstacksdk, I notice that workitem 10. Dependency on openstack-sdk (how about using openstack-client) | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | hope the invocations would be smooth afterwards | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | elynn, I spent sometime on reading osc code | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | it won't serve our use case | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | we need to stick to sdk | 13:36 |
| Qiming | osc is only about command line | 13:36 |
| elynn | Ok, so this is not an workitem yet. got it. | 13:36 |
| Qiming | we talked to Brian in Tokyo, the code review will catch up | 13:36 |
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| Qiming | yanyanhu, have we documented TOSCA related items? | 13:38 |
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| yanyanhu | not yet, Qiming | 13:38 |
| Qiming | seems to me we need a couple of specs before getting hands on them | 13:38 |
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| Qiming | okay, need to work with Matt on it | 13:39 |
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| yanyanhu | yes, I think we need some specs to clarify more detail about this job | 13:39 |
| Qiming | we do no convergence, but we need to manage objects we created on behalf of users, that was the conclusion, right? | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | that's right since we are cluster management service | 13:41 |
| Qiming | policy data passing thing, merged? | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | not just cluster deployment service | 13:41 |
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| yanyanhu | let me check | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | hi, Qiming, not yet | 13:42 |
| Qiming | ok, leaving it there | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | since I was not quite sure how to describe the workitem accurately | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | will think through about it | 13:42 |
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| Qiming | just try your best, we are a team, we can help polish it once there is a draft | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | ok :) | 13:43 |
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| Qiming | the only big mistake we should avoid is we forget what we have discussed, :) | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | right | 13:43 |
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| Qiming | having all these captured into the TODO.rst file and/or the FEATURE.rst file will help | 13:43 |
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| Qiming | anything we neeed to delete from the meetup page? | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | - Scavenger of objects (should be configurable.) | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | - object status consitency (clearly document ) | 13:45 |
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| Qiming | those two already merged? | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | hi, Qiming, I think we can also remove these two items which are listed under Housekeeping catalog | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | yes, they were also added in today's patch | 13:45 |
| Qiming | cool | 13:46 |
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| Qiming | okay, after the meeting, please help consolidate the rest into the two rst files | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:47 |
| Qiming | time to move on, :) | 13:47 |
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| Qiming | don't think we'll have time to work on this today: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-mitaka-workitems | 13:47 |
| Qiming | this will be our focus next meeting, | 13:48 |
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| HAIWEI | discuss about it? | 13:48 |
| yanyanhu | after we update TODO.rst, we can sync them | 13:48 |
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| Qiming | we review your patch and dump things here | 13:48 |
| Qiming | the current list for mitaka is too long | 13:49 |
| Qiming | we won't have a chance to complete all of them | 13:49 |
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| yanyanhu | also think so | 13:50 |
| Qiming | need to prioritize things, set a clear goal for m-1 | 13:50 |
| HAIWEI | yes | 13:50 |
| HAIWEI | when is the end of m-1 | 13:50 |
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| yanyanhu | by the end of this year? | 13:50 |
| Qiming | https://launchpad.net/senlin/+milestones | 13:51 |
| Qiming | we have only one month for m-1 | 13:51 |
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| HAIWEI | only a month away | 13:51 |
| yanyanhu | ... short period | 13:51 |
| Qiming | yup, got to be realistic | 13:51 |
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| Qiming | so the top priority in my view is about stability and heat resource type | 13:52 |
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| Qiming | all features can be added later on | 13:52 |
| Qiming | they can be driven by requests | 13:52 |
| Qiming | let's continue this next week | 13:54 |
| Qiming | #topic open discussions | 13:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:54 | |
| Qiming | see if any thing guys want to bring up? | 13:54 |
| yanyanhu | nice, will clean all items left in meetup page tomorrow and wait for you guys comments | 13:54 |
| yanyanhu | nope from me | 13:54 |
| Qiming | you already got some from me, :) | 13:54 |
| yanyanhu | will check it :) | 13:55 |
| HAIWEI | it seems we got some new members | 13:55 |
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| HAIWEI | hope more and more people will join | 13:55 |
| Qiming | yes, that is getting things nicer :) | 13:55 |
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| HAIWEI | that's all from me | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | HAIWEI, I noticed yuanying san is also in the irc channel :) | 13:56 |
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| HAIWEI | yes, but I think he will not contribute :) | 13:56 |
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| HAIWEI | he mainly focuses on magnum | 13:56 |
| Qiming | buy hime some sake | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | np, just stand there to support us :) | 13:56 |
| Qiming | HAIWEI, we need to continue client test cases | 13:57 |
| HAIWEI | anyway, we want to use senlin for our local team | 13:57 |
| Qiming | at least for the shell module | 13:57 |
| HAIWEI | ok, Qiming | 13:57 |
| elynn | I have some concern about the patch for senlinclient. | 13:58 |
| elynn | about profile_create | 13:58 |
| Qiming | the client module will change, when we have better support from sdk | 13:58 |
| elynn | I will comment in that patch. | 13:58 |
| HAIWEI | you start a patch, and we cooperate with the job, Qiming | 13:58 |
| Qiming | okay, thanks, elynn | 13:58 |
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| Qiming | HAIWEI, I think I have already done that | 13:59 |
| Qiming | maybe need more, ;) | 13:59 |
| Qiming | let's release this channel, time's up | 13:59 |
| Qiming | #endmeeting | 13:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 13:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 3 13:59:44 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 13:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-11-03-12.59.html | 13:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-11-03-12.59.txt | 13:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-11-03-12.59.log.html | 13:59 |
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| kevinbenton | no neutron meeting today | 14:01 |
| crc32 | ??? | 14:01 |
| crc32 | I was told this was a neutron on demand meeting | 14:01 |
| kevinbenton | crc32: oh, i thought this week was cancelled. let me look through email | 14:02 |
| ajo | crc32, what do you demand? :D | 14:02 |
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| ajo | It was cancelled I think | 14:02 |
| crc32 | I'm new here actually. Ok. Canceleld it is | 14:03 |
| kevinbenton | crc32: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-October/078051.html | 14:03 |
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| davidsha | Meetings resume next week is it? | 14:03 |
| kevinbenton | yes | 14:03 |
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| davidsha | All meetings are canceled this week is it? I heard that the week after the summit usually nothing happens while things are being wrapped up. | 14:04 |
| kevinbenton | davidsha: not sure about all but it is pretty common to have this week be a cool-down recovery from the summit :) | 14:05 |
| persia | Or, no meetings happen because everyone is exhausted, and half of us are jetlagged. | 14:05 |
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| persia | (plus, lots of people often get ill) | 14:05 |
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| davidsha_ | kevinbenton: Cool, thanks! | 14:06 |
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| * gongysh_ test | 14:57 | |
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| cbits | is there a NeutronDrivers meeting today? | 15:06 |
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| cbits | Guess not | 15:14 |
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| domc1 | Is the Tokyo summit still going on? Meetings were cancelled last week | 15:15 |
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| carl_baldwin | cbits: I guess it was implicitly cancelled along with the regular Neutron meeting. | 15:15 |
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| cbits | Cheers! | 15:16 |
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| dstanek | ping ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, claudiub, rderose, samleon | 18:02 |
| amakarov | o/ | 18:02 |
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| lbragstad | dstanek o/ | 18:02 |
| rodrigods | pong | 18:02 |
| raildo | \o/ | 18:02 |
| topol | o/ | 18:02 |
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| david8hu | \o | 18:02 |
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| ericksonsantos | o/ | 18:02 |
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| gyee | \o/ | 18:02 |
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| ayoung | I'm here but in a nother meeting, too. Ping me explicitly if you need my input. Otherwise, I'll just view from time to time | 18:03 |
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| dstanek | our recent time change had me all messed up | 18:03 |
| htruta | o/ | 18:03 |
| dstanek | #startmeeting Keystone | 18:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 3 18:03:53 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dstanek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:03 |
| dstanek | dolphm: yt? | 18:04 |
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| lbragstad | thingee doesn't appear to be here either | 18:05 |
| dstanek | it looks like that was our only meeting agenda item | 18:05 |
| lbragstad | i can see if he is in the office | 18:05 |
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| dstanek | anyone have anything else that needs to be discussed? | 18:05 |
| bknudson | I can't think of anything. | 18:06 |
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| htruta | dstanek: seems like henrynash is not around, but his email about reseller hasn't been replied yet | 18:07 |
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| dstanek | htruta: who does he need a reply from? | 18:07 |
| htruta | dstanek: good question | 18:07 |
| topol | lbragstad you need t explain that ... to me :-) | 18:07 |
| dolphm | damn time change | 18:07 |
| lbragstad | ok, dolphm is on his way | 18:07 |
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| dstanek | #topic Assert standard deprecation | 18:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Assert standard deprecation (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:08 | |
| dstanek | #link http://governance.openstack.org/reference/tags/assert_follows-standard-deprecation.html | 18:08 |
| dstanek | dolphm: all you! | 18:08 |
| dolphm | I put this on the agenda for everyone who couldn't attend the cross project session at the summit on deprecation policies | 18:08 |
| topol | ++ Thanks | 18:08 |
| dolphm | there was a lot of discussion about how to approach deprecating APIs, how to approach removing them, and how to handle all of this in the context of immature and mature projects | 18:09 |
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| dolphm | keystone is very much in the "mature" camp, so we have to be super conservative | 18:09 |
| topol | dolphm +++ Definitely | 18:10 |
| dolphm | and i'm happy to report that i think we've demonstrated pretty good leadership within the broader community on this already, but we're not one of the projects that has made the assertion to follow this document | 18:11 |
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| dstanek | dolphm: ++ nice | 18:11 |
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| dolphm | so, i'm hoping everyone will take a few minutes today to read through this, and if we're all on the same page, we can voluntold stevemar to add keystone as one of these projects | 18:11 |
| gyee | what's the verdict on v2.0? | 18:12 |
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| lbragstad | we had action items from the summit for v2.0 | 18:12 |
| bknudson | v2 has been essentially deprecated "Code will be frozen and only receive minimal maintenance" for a few releases now | 18:12 |
| dstanek | #action stevemar to add Keystone to the list of project that follow the standard deprecation process | 18:13 |
| gyee | but we can't mark it as deprecated yet | 18:13 |
| * dstanek likes to assign tasks to those that are not here :-) | 18:13 | |
| bknudson | we don't meet the criteria | 18:13 |
| bknudson | "uses an automated test to verify that configuration files are forward-compatible from release to release " | 18:14 |
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| lbragstad | introducing v3 only jobs to projects, make the v3 job voting, moving the last few bits that don't work on v3 | 18:14 |
| dstanek | dolphm: i thought we had to essentially keep v2 around forever | 18:14 |
| bknudson | we can deprecate it even if we never remove it | 18:14 |
| dstanek | bknudson: sounds like there are addition work items to weed out of there | 18:14 |
| lbragstad | make v2.0 middleware that translates to and from v3 | 18:15 |
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| gyee | we are keeping the public facing v2.0 APIs and deprecate the rest, if I remember correctly | 18:15 |
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| gyee | that still the plan? | 18:16 |
| bknudson | are we going to allow adding new features to the v2.0 APIs? | 18:16 |
| lbragstad | we narrowed it down to about four calls that we will never be able to remove | 18:16 |
| lbragstad | etherpad from the summit #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-mitaka-summit-deprecations | 18:16 |
| dstanek | bknudson: i would love to say no | 18:16 |
| bknudson | we could add support for domains to v2 auth | 18:16 |
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| dolphm | gyee: that's my idea for a long term plan, yes | 18:17 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: the reason why we didn't do that is to not break v2 validation responses that would otherwise be domain-unaware and thus result in namespace conflicts | 18:17 |
| dolphm | bknudson: so, no, we can't | 18:17 |
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| gyee | dolphm, that's good, so as long as the doc didn't say we have to deprecate the entire set | 18:18 |
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| dolphm | gyee: the ideal is that you deprecate nothing, and you're committed to every API forever | 18:18 |
| bknudson | the reason to deprecate the v2 api is that we'd like to remove it so that we don't have to support the code | 18:19 |
| dolphm | as long as you have users, you support the API, end of story. i think keystone can eventually get operators off of v2.0 administrator crud, but it'll be a much longer process to get users off v2 auth, if ever | 18:19 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: removal will not happen quickly. certainly not in 2 cycles. | 18:20 |
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| bknudson | the code is made more complicated and we'll likely have security bugs due to having to keep it around | 18:20 |
| dolphm | agree | 18:20 |
| dolphm | that's the cost of publishing an API in the first place | 18:20 |
| topol | dolphm, so removal wont happen quickly but hopefully its stable and does not require much maintneance... and no enhancements | 18:20 |
| raildo | n | 18:21 |
| dstanek | there is also the discussion of making v2 just use the v3 API under the hood | 18:21 |
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| topol | bknudson how many security bugs normally come in? | 18:21 |
| dolphm | topol: ++ | 18:21 |
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| bknudson | topol: I don't think we've seen any due to v2 support yet. | 18:22 |
| dolphm | i can't think of any, either | 18:22 |
| gyee | pki? :) | 18:22 |
| topol | gyee never mention that again :-) | 18:22 |
| bknudson | v2 already has a security problem where the tokens are in the request path | 18:22 |
| dolphm | the original v2 security bug was "tokens in URLs may be logged" | 18:22 |
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| dolphm | so v3 doesn't put bearer tokens in URLs | 18:23 |
| thingee | o/ | 18:23 |
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| dstanek | "security issues can't be fixed due to backward compatibility requirements. see v3 API" | 18:23 |
| bknudson | so do we wait until everyone is off to deprecate v2 crud or deprecate it to get people to stop using it? | 18:23 |
| lbragstad | dstanek ++ | 18:23 |
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| bknudson | what's the point of deprecating? | 18:24 |
| gyee | topol, my bad, I was shouting a random word :) | 18:24 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: to discourage any remaining use and say that v3 is ready for everyone to use | 18:24 |
| topol | bknudson a nudge as opposed to a push | 18:24 |
| thingee | bknudson: I've heard from operators that when they do upgrades, they look for scary warnings that mention deprecation... so they can make plans for finishing upgrades. | 18:25 |
| topol | dolphm +++ | 18:25 |
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| dolphm | i still come across people within the openstack community asking the question "should i use v3 yet?" | 18:25 |
| bknudson | ok, let's deprecate v2 crud | 18:25 |
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| amakarov | dolphm, ++ | 18:25 |
| bknudson | and we can also deprecate v2 public since we want operators to be scared and switch. | 18:25 |
| dolphm | bknudson: disagree | 18:26 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: on the public auth calls | 18:26 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: the v2 token validation API should be deprecated though (but that's on the admin side, not :5000) | 18:26 |
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| dolphm | v2 auth usage is not remotely close to zero yet, not even within openstack/ - we have to achieve that first | 18:27 |
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| gyee | yeah we can't deprecate v2 auth yet | 18:28 |
| dstanek | sounds like we need a spec to layout the deprecation strategy | 18:28 |
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| dolphm | dstanek: that'd be reasonable in this case | 18:29 |
| dolphm | #action dolphm to document keystone's approach to v2 deprecation in a spec | 18:29 |
| dstanek | for each logical component v2 crud, v2 auth, etc. just what the strategy will be and maybe some high level timelines | 18:29 |
| bknudson | if we write down the criteria for deprecating a feature we can use it when doing reviews | 18:30 |
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| topol | dstanek, spec would help | 18:30 |
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| dstanek | i have another topic that came up just now... | 18:31 |
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| dstanek | #topic stop editing the paste.ini? | 18:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "stop editing the paste.ini? (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:31 | |
| dstanek | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185464/ | 18:31 |
| dstanek | i've seen this ask a couple of times and haven't really heard the general opinion of the group | 18:32 |
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| dolphm | stop editing? | 18:32 |
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| bknudson | maybe this means we shouldn't require editing paste.ini to disable admin token | 18:33 |
| dstanek | dolphm: right now you need to change it when you install keystone - that review attempts to start fixing that | 18:33 |
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| dstanek | bknudson: yes | 18:33 |
| bknudson | I agree that the default for admin token (if not specified) should be that admin token is disabled | 18:33 |
| gyee | didn't we agree to provide the bootstrapping capability via keystone-manage and remove admin token? | 18:33 |
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| gyee | so that patch can go away | 18:33 |
| dstanek | we've taken our setting outs and blocked reviews like the OSProfiler one that wants to add setting to out paste.ini | 18:33 |
| dstanek | gyee: i've heard we want to do that, but i don't know that we've committed to it | 18:34 |
| bknudson | we have a cors review now that wants to add cors middleware to paste.ini | 18:34 |
| ayoung | paste should be how we enable disable V2, but beyond that, no | 18:34 |
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| ayoung | althougjh...wanted a way to enable a specific auth mechansim for a pipeline | 18:34 |
| gyee | dstanek, I thought we all agree on that going forward, though I don't remember on who's plate | 18:35 |
| ayoung | yeah, killing admin token should not require editing paste, except for backports | 18:35 |
| bknudson | it's on my list of things to do to look into keystone-manage but it's low priority | 18:35 |
| dolphm | i forget which session, but we had a short list of "remaining" things that required the admin token to bootstrap, so we could possibly just remove it as a thing altogether | 18:35 |
| dstanek | gyee: maybe that's the problem then. | 18:35 |
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| dstanek | dolphm: oh, nice. i didn't remember seeing a list like that | 18:36 |
| bknudson | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185464/ looks like it's essentially abandoned since no updates for a couple months | 18:36 |
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| dstanek | so maybe this just needs a spec to enumerate the things we still have to fix before removing auth token | 18:36 |
| gyee | tempest I think | 18:37 |
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| bknudson | tempest uses admin token? | 18:37 |
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| ayoung | I'm not in love with the current state of paste but don't have the time to rewrite it ATM. | 18:37 |
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| gyee | bknudson, I thought someone mentioned it at the session, but I'll need to double check | 18:38 |
| dstanek | dolphm: is the bottom of this what you where talking about? | 18:38 |
| dstanek | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-mitaka-summit-deprecations | 18:38 |
| dolphm | dstanek: no | 18:39 |
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| dstanek | #action dstanek to sort out the remaining things that depend on auth_token | 18:40 |
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| dstanek | ok, switching topics... | 18:41 |
| dstanek | #topic Office Hours | 18:41 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Office Hours (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:41 | |
| dolphm | dstanek: *admin_token | 18:41 |
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| dstanek | just wanted to let everyone know that i'll only be available for a bit this Friday to help with bugs and not at all on the 13th due to a vacation | 18:42 |
| bknudson | I don't think we're getting rid of auth_token any time soon | 18:42 |
| bknudson | although gyee might have a plan for that | 18:42 |
| dstanek | dolphm: doh, thx | 18:42 |
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| topol | dstanek Enjoy your vacation | 18:42 |
| dstanek | does anyone have anything to discuss or do y'all want your time back? | 18:43 |
| bknudson | I'll be here on friday. | 18:43 |
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| gyee | bknudson, dstanek volunteer for the auth_token investigation | 18:44 |
| dstanek | feel free to add yourselves to the list | 18:44 |
| dstanek | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-office-hours | 18:44 |
| dstanek | gyee: no, no, no... misspeak! misspeak! | 18:44 |
| gyee | hah | 18:44 |
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| dstanek | we did really good the last office hours day, but i'm hoping we can still do better | 18:45 |
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| lbragstad | ++ | 18:46 |
| dstanek | only other topics...going once | 18:46 |
| topol | I second ending the meeting early | 18:46 |
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| dstanek | #endmeeting | 18:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:46 | |
| dolphm | woo | 18:46 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 3 18:46:39 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:46 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-11-03-18.03.html | 18:46 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-11-03-18.03.txt | 18:46 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-11-03-18.03.log.html | 18:46 |
| topol | :-) | 18:46 |
| dstanek | enjoy your extra 15 minutes! | 18:46 |
| dolphm | dstanek: thanks for running the meeting! | 18:46 |
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| dstanek | dolphm: mah, pleasure | 18:47 |
| topol | +++ great job dstanek. Thanks for not mentioning the steelers | 18:47 |
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| fungi | infra team: assemble! | 19:00 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:00 |
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| crinkle | o/ | 19:00 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:00 |
| pabelanger | o/ | 19:00 |
| SotK | o/ | 19:00 |
| mordred | topol: aren't the panthers doing, like, really well this season? | 19:00 |
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| jhesketh | o/ | 19:00 |
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| jesusaurus | o/ | 19:01 |
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| clarkb | hello | 19:01 |
| yolanda | o/ | 19:01 |
| mmedvede | o/ | 19:01 |
| topol | mordred yes... but Im a steelers fan | 19:01 |
| fungi | jeblair: SergeyLukjanov: infra team meeting starting now | 19:01 |
| fungi | (if you're around) | 19:01 |
| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 3 19:01:55 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:02 |
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| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:02 |
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| mordred | topol: ah. maybe it's time to become a panthers fan | 19:02 |
| fungi | #topic Announcements | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| ianw | o/ | 19:02 |
| fungi | #info crinkle added to infra-puppet-core | 19:02 |
| yolanda | woot! | 19:03 |
| jeblair | crinkle: yay! | 19:03 |
| fungi | thanks to crinkle for agreeing to help as an infra-puppet-core reviewer! | 19:03 |
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| mordred | woot | 19:03 |
| pleia2 | welcome, crinkle! | 19:03 |
| jesusaurus | crinkle: congrats | 19:03 |
| topol | mordred... getting close | 19:03 |
| crinkle | :) | 19:03 |
| pabelanger | /me claps | 19:03 |
| fungi | her insightful review work has already been a huge help to us, and i'm pleased that she's willing to take on more responsibility there | 19:03 |
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| jhesketh | +1 | 19:03 |
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| SotK | congrats crinkle | 19:04 |
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| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
| tsymanczyk_ | o/ | 19:04 |
| fungi | there were none, though we did implicitly have a "meet in tokyo and do infra stuff" action item, which i think we accomplished | 19:05 |
| mordred | I did stuff, so I concur | 19:05 |
| fungi | #topic Specs approval | 19:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:05 | |
| fungi | based on discussions in tokyo with some of the other infrastructure core reviewers, i've drafted an update to our priorities list | 19:06 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/241331 | 19:06 |
| fungi | the tl;dr is that we kept the remaining four priorities which were lingering from liberty, and added four new ones to our plate | 19:06 |
| fungi | those are ansible puppet apply, gerrit 2.11 upgrade, infra-cloud and zuul v3 | 19:07 |
| clarkb | several of which should be able to get finished quickly (puppet apply, gerrit upgrade, openstackci) | 19:07 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:07 |
| jeblair | clarkb: ++ | 19:07 |
| fungi | right, a lot of the lingering ones and some of the new additions are "easy wins" in terms of being able to wrap them up early in mitaka | 19:08 |
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| fungi | so it's not as daunting at is might look | 19:08 |
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| zaro | o/ | 19:08 |
| anteaya | congratulations crinkle | 19:08 |
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| fungi | #info council voting is open on Infra Mitaka Priority Updates until 19:00 UTC Thursday, November 5 | 19:09 |
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| fungi | just so we can register any objections | 19:09 |
| fungi | also, that meditation room we found in the garden was very nice | 19:10 |
| olaph | hai | 19:10 |
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| fungi | hopefully the zen from that bleeds through in our cycle planning ;) | 19:10 |
| jeblair | and meetings of the infra council should really happen in wood paneled rooms with fireplaces | 19:10 |
| * jeblair hangs wood panels in #openstack-meeting | 19:10 | |
| fungi | barefoot on tatami mat floors | 19:11 |
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| cody-somerville | \o | 19:11 |
| pleia2 | fungi: that was pretty fun :) | 19:11 |
| * jhesketh agrees | 19:11 | |
| fungi | #agreed #openstack-meeting will be outfitted with wood paneling and tatami mats | 19:11 |
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| fungi | also that change adds a dummy spec for the gerrit upgrade just so we have something to link in the priorities and to document the review topic | 19:12 |
| fungi | it's probably rife with typos and i don't really care much | 19:12 |
| fungi | also extremely light on detail | 19:12 |
| fungi | we've discussed it to death in other venues already | 19:13 |
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| clarkb | and eve ndone it once | 19:13 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts: maniphest migration (ruagair) | 19:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: maniphest migration (ruagair) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:13 | |
| fungi | ruagair: i see you added some updates on this... anything critical? | 19:13 |
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| pleia2 | thanks to ruagair for taking a lead here | 19:14 |
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| anteaya | I have a question is this called maniphest or phabricator? | 19:15 |
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| anteaya | when I call it one I am told to call it the other | 19:15 |
| mordred | yes | 19:15 |
| fungi | it's worth noting that the outcome of the task tracker discussion in tokyo is that we will continue working on implementing maniphest (as evidenced by the priorities list) | 19:15 |
| anteaya | so I'm confused | 19:15 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: maniphest is a component of phabricator | 19:15 |
| mordred | the entire thing is called phabricator | 19:15 |
| fungi | anteaya: phabricator is a suite of tools | 19:15 |
| mordred | yeah. what pleia2 said | 19:15 |
| pleia2 | we're just deploying maniphest for now | 19:15 |
| anteaya | okay thank you maniphest | 19:15 |
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| jeblair | (but i think pholio will soon follow) | 19:16 |
| fungi | #info from Tokyo: task tracker effort will continue on the storyboard to maniphest migration | 19:16 |
| mordred | well, pholio is also enabled in the current deployment | 19:16 |
| mordred | so - it might be worth just calling it phabricator | 19:16 |
| anteaya | task tracker? | 19:16 |
| jeblair | mordred: what current deployment? | 19:16 |
| anteaya | can it that? | 19:16 |
| mordred | jeblair: the puppet that is driving ruagair's work | 19:16 |
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| jeblair | mordred: ah cool. | 19:16 |
| mordred | jeblair: it includes phabricator configs that disable/enable components and whatnot | 19:17 |
| jeblair | so not following very far behind at all. | 19:17 |
| fungi | #info from Tokyo: the Infra team will try not to get in the way of the new Storyboard dev team, and will be much more flexible about new featureset/design plans there following Maniphest migration for OpenStack | 19:17 |
| mordred | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/puppet-phabricator/tree/templates/local.json.erb#n10 | 19:17 |
| mordred | for anyone who is interested | 19:17 |
| mordred | (that section says "please turn these off") | 19:18 |
| jeblair | mordred: (pholio not in uninstalled-applications == pholio installed?) | 19:18 |
| anteaya | mordred: thank you | 19:18 |
| mordred | jeblair: yes | 19:18 |
| fungi | anything else on this topic? it looks like ruagair is not around to discuss | 19:19 |
| tchaypo | it’s 5:20am his time :( | 19:19 |
| clarkb | also jetlag | 19:20 |
| fungi | yep, understandable | 19:20 |
| zaro | does anybody know ETA on turning on? | 19:20 |
| clarkb | though not so bad for people on that half of the owrld | 19:20 |
| fungi | i slept through a meeting this morning myself | 19:20 |
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| jeblair | fungi: was it this one? | 19:20 |
| anteaya | I almost slept through this one | 19:20 |
| fungi | jeblair: zzzzz | 19:20 |
| jeblair | zaro: eta for making the phabricator instance available? | 19:20 |
| mordred | I believe he wants to get auth working before he opens the gates on letting people poke at a beta | 19:20 |
| zaro | jeblair: yes. | 19:21 |
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| fungi | zaro: your question is missing too many words for me to be confident i'm parsing it accurately | 19:21 |
| jeblair | zaro: yeah, what mordred said, which i read as "pretty soon now" | 19:21 |
| mordred | ruagair now has the phabricator side working | 19:21 |
| mordred | and just needs to put cauth in front of it | 19:21 |
| fungi | excellent | 19:21 |
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| fungi | though it sounded from the discussion at the summit like cauth was potentially abandonware and in need of some fixing? | 19:22 |
| mordred | I think that was the phab plugin | 19:22 |
| fungi | oh, got it | 19:22 |
| mordred | cauth is an enovance thing | 19:22 |
| mordred | https://github.com/redhat-cip/cauth | 19:22 |
| fungi | wmf is using it for their deployment though, right? | 19:22 |
| mordred | I do not believe so, no | 19:23 |
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| mordred | we need to use it because we want to integrate with an openid SSO provider | 19:23 |
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| mordred | but phab does not suppor that. with the help of a plugin, phab _does_ support REMOTE_USER auth | 19:23 |
| mordred | which is how cauth provides auth to applications it works with | 19:24 |
| mordred | so the easiest path forward that did not involve us writing PHP | 19:24 |
| fungi | got it | 19:24 |
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| fungi | okay, so discussion on this update seems to be winding down. any other points that need covering before we move on? | 19:25 |
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| fungi | #topic stackalytics.o.o (pabelanger) | 19:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "stackalytics.o.o (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:25 | |
| fungi | i guess this is going well? | 19:26 |
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| fungi | i saw discussion on the infra ml about database dumps... | 19:26 |
| pabelanger | Yup | 19:27 |
| mordred | \o/ | 19:27 |
| anteaya | there is a patch | 19:27 |
| anteaya | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/190708/ | 19:27 |
| pabelanger | We are at the point for people to review code, and then spin up instances | 19:27 |
| fungi | a couple if the agenda is to be believed | 19:27 |
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| pabelanger | still needs some work before production ready, but could use some help launching the node, and eyes on puppet reviews | 19:27 |
| pleia2 | pabelanger: I'm around all week and can help with the node launch | 19:28 |
| fungi | any infra-root admins willing to volunteer to launch the stackalytics.openstack.org production server? | 19:28 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:28 |
| fungi | right on! | 19:28 |
| pabelanger | perfect | 19:28 |
| fungi | i'm looking forward to this | 19:28 |
| fungi | anything else you wanted to talk about wrt stackalytics? | 19:29 |
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| pabelanger | Not too much. going to need some tuning for the server, but think mirantis will help more with that | 19:30 |
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| fungi | sounds good | 19:30 |
| pabelanger | all and all, works as expected | 19:30 |
| fungi | #topic Project Renames and Moves | 19:30 |
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| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Upcoming_Project_Renames | 19:30 |
| fungi | we've got a few queued up | 19:31 |
| fungi | a typo slipped through in the puppet-openstack_health module's repo name | 19:31 |
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| clarkb | we should consider moving pbr to openstack/ | 19:31 |
| fungi | networking-bigswitch and compass-install want to be unretired and moved to openstack | 19:31 |
| mordred | should we attempt to get openstack-dev/pbr -> openstack | 19:31 |
| clarkb | so that we don't have to special case it everywhere | 19:31 |
| mordred | clarkb is quicker | 19:31 |
| anteaya | who asked about compass-monit? | 19:31 |
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| jeblair | where do we special case pbr? | 19:32 |
| anteaya | compass-monit never indicated they needed to be moved that I saw | 19:32 |
| fungi | networking-bagpipe-l2 apparently wants a slightly shorter repo name | 19:32 |
| clarkb | jeblair: in the install lib from source jobs | 19:32 |
| jeblair | k | 19:32 |
| fungi | and akanda is now astara | 19:32 |
| clarkb | jeblair: so that we can stop cloning all the libs on every d-g run and install them from pypi anyways | 19:32 |
| fungi | i agree, rolling these up with some openstack-dev namespace moves would be swell | 19:32 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: wait i don't understand what you just said about cloning... | 19:33 |
| anteaya | fungi: did you ask about compass-monit? | 19:33 |
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| fungi | anteaya: i added the question about compass-monit mainly because i don't want the compass devs to come back next and ask us to unretire it after the compass-install unretirement | 19:33 |
| clarkb | jeblair: every single d-g job clones the entire default PROJCETS list which is huge | 19:33 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: this list includes a large number of projects that are never used from source on most runs | 19:34 |
| jeblair | clarkb: right, i think you're shortening it? | 19:34 |
| clarkb | jeblair: primarily the oslo libs and python clients | 19:34 |
| fungi | anteaya: if we already asked them about the second repo and they said they definitely don't need it, i'll take it off the bullet list there | 19:34 |
| anteaya | fungi: oh okay fair, I was concerned I missed something | 19:34 |
| clarkb | jeblair: yup | 19:34 |
| anteaya | I didn't ask them about compass-monit, no | 19:34 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: one of the things I did was in the -src jenkins jobs which install a specific component from source I add openstack/{name} to PROJECTS | 19:34 |
| clarkb | jeblair: that works in all but one case: pbr | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: got it | 19:34 |
| jeblair | i understand the connection now :) | 19:35 |
| fungi | anteaya: mostly assuming it was the same people responsible for both repos, so if they missed notifications about one then they might have missed both | 19:35 |
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| anteaya | fungi: okay fair I will get some specific feedback about compass-monit | 19:35 |
| fungi | thanks anteaya! | 19:35 |
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| fungi | so, anyway, i was going to suggest a short-notice maintenance window to knock out the pending renames/moves listed there, so we could squeeze it in prior to the upgrade maintenance, but if we want to bundle it with the openstack-dev moves then maybe we should consider waiting until after the upgrade? | 19:36 |
| fungi | i know at least a few projects in -dev wanted to move to openstack proper | 19:37 |
| anteaya | I'm available the 13th, 14th, 20th and 21st | 19:37 |
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| fungi | devstack being the most painful, the others might be a lot simpler (based on discussions with mtreinish and sdague in tokyo) | 19:37 |
| anteaya | sorry we are moving all of openstack-dev? I missed that | 19:38 |
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| fungi | the 21st is our gerrit upgrade maintenance, so best not to comingle those i expect | 19:38 |
| anteaya | I thought the 18th was the upgrade? | 19:39 |
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| pleia2 | er, isn't that the 18th? | 19:39 |
| fungi | oh, right | 19:39 |
| fungi | we made it wednesday | 19:39 |
| * pleia2 nods | 19:39 | |
| zaro | is that bad? | 19:39 |
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| anteaya | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-November/003357.html | 19:40 |
| jeblair | nibalizer announced the 18th | 19:40 |
| fungi | well, anyway i'm not around the 13th/14th or 20th/21st either, but if people are eager to get these out of the way then you don't necessarily need me for it | 19:40 |
| clarkb | would it be worthwhile doing all but devstack? | 19:40 |
| clarkb | just wondering if we have enough time to do devstack on say the 13th | 19:41 |
| clarkb | and if not maybe go ahead with all the others | 19:41 |
| anteaya | clarkb: it would be easy to do all but devstack | 19:41 |
| fungi | zaro: we settled on wednesday for the upgrade because of availability of participants and scheduling (per the meeting a couple weeks ago) | 19:41 |
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| mordred | I have a weird suggestions with devstack ... | 19:41 |
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| mordred | what if we special-cased it somehow and had gerrit replicate to both openstack/devstack and openstack-dev/devstack for a while | 19:42 |
| mordred | mainly because ther eare SO MANY getting started with devstack guides out there | 19:42 |
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| mordred | that all start "git clone git://git.openstack.org/opentack-dev/devstack" | 19:42 |
| fungi | i did brainstorm that we might be able to symlink it on the filesystem | 19:42 |
| jeblair | mordred: that seems reasonable | 19:42 |
| fungi | talking about it with sdague | 19:42 |
| mordred | I think gerrit can do name mapping in replication config yeah? | 19:42 |
| fungi | might be easier than double-replicating | 19:42 |
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| jeblair | mordred: i'm not certain we can configure gerrit to replicate like that, but worth looking into | 19:43 |
| mordred | (I think we need to have it show up in github too ... unless we put a tiny script in github/openstack-dev/devstack that is a script that clones from github/openstack/devstack | 19:43 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 19:43 |
| clarkb | mordred: github will automagically redirect | 19:43 |
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| fungi | github we'd just transfer it to the openstack prg and their redirects should solve it | 19:43 |
| jeblair | mordred: with github we can take advantage of the redirect | 19:43 |
| mordred | oh! duh | 19:44 |
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| mordred | nm then - symlinks would probably work just fine then | 19:44 |
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| jeblair | cool | 19:44 |
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| fungi | we should probably perform a simple test to make sure git:// handles a symlinked repo name | 19:44 |
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| fungi | i can give that a try tomorrow probably unless someone beats me to it | 19:46 |
| mordred | so ... while we're at it ... | 19:46 |
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| mordred | maybe we should just move all the retired stackforge projects to be retired openstack projects so that if ever any of them need to be unretired we don't have to do a rename? | 19:46 |
| mordred | (sine we have a rename event planned anyway) | 19:47 |
| jeblair | mordred: i can see arguments either way on that; but i lean toward thinking they were never in openstack so it's weird/unintuitive to put them there when they are abandoned. | 19:47 |
| fungi | it might make their retired status less discoverable | 19:47 |
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| mordred | ya - I don't feel strongly about it at all | 19:48 |
| mordred | just thought I'd mention as an option | 19:48 |
| fungi | we did briefly discuss it months ago when the rename plan was being drafted | 19:48 |
| mordred | nod | 19:48 |
| mordred | I was probably drunk | 19:48 |
| fungi | i'm sure i was | 19:48 |
| anteaya | I'm in favour of not having to do more reviews than I have to, as I don't want to make mistakes | 19:48 |
| mordred | anteaya: good point | 19:48 |
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| anteaya | if we want to do it another time, I'm fine with that, i just don't favour competition for review time with something more important | 19:49 |
| fungi | also i expect that it's been long enough now and few enough projects actually came forward saying they missed/misunderstood the announcements that i don't expect many more (if any) | 19:49 |
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| fungi | okay, so did we want to consider a rename batch this coming weekend? or one of the weekends immediately before/after the rename, or push it off until late november/later? | 19:51 |
| anteaya | I'm at pyconca this weekend, but y'all don't need me | 19:51 |
| fungi | if we want to batch it up with openstack-dev moves then this weekend is probably too soon | 19:51 |
| anteaya | I'm in favour of splitting them | 19:51 |
| anteaya | -dev with be big and the other renames should be simple | 19:52 |
| anteaya | but I'm thinking about reviewing not downtime | 19:52 |
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| fungi | i lean toward expecting we need to provide a bit more advance notice of moving teh contents of openstack-dev since they're pretty widely used compared to the other stuff on the roster | 19:52 |
| anteaya | I agree with that point | 19:53 |
| mordred | fungi: yah | 19:53 |
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| anteaya | if someone is able to do renames this weekend I can review patches before I go | 19:53 |
| fungi | also the weekend before the gerrit upgrade may be a bad idea because that's only a handful of days to iron out any problems resulting from, e.g., the devstack move and it could encroach on upgrade preparations | 19:54 |
| clarkb | I will likely be around this weekend if we do a first batch | 19:54 |
| fungi | yeah, i'm here this weekend as well and can help | 19:54 |
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| anteaya | i'll prep the current renames, nothing from -dev | 19:54 |
| anteaya | and get stuff set up if fungi and clarkb want to do the downtime bit | 19:54 |
| anteaya | I will be away Friday and all weekened | 19:55 |
| jeblair | i'm gerrit conferencing this weekend and will not be around | 19:55 |
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| fungi | since we'd be sticking to the simple renames, a couple of us should be plenty | 19:55 |
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| fungi | so let's plan for moving what we can this weekend, and anything which isn't ready for that window will get batched up with an openstack-dev move in late november? | 19:55 |
| zaro | i'm @ gerrit with jeblair as well | 19:55 |
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| fungi | s/moving/renaming or moving/ | 19:56 |
| anteaya | fungi: I can live with that | 19:56 |
| zaro | heads up, watch for this after gerrit restart: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/236056/ | 19:56 |
| anteaya | I'll do as much prep as I can and sync with you and clarkb on Thursday | 19:56 |
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| anteaya | zaro: thank you | 19:56 |
| fungi | zaro: that's only happening on review-dev at the moment, right? | 19:57 |
| zaro | nope, should be for both review and review-dev | 19:57 |
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| anteaya | has review-dev been restarted with that change yet? | 19:57 |
| zaro | yes. | 19:58 |
| clarkb | zaro: did it fix the cgit linkage? | 19:58 |
| zaro | yes | 19:58 |
| clarkb | yay | 19:58 |
| fungi | where are the cgit links on review.o.o? i only see it doing gitweb there | 19:58 |
| clarkb | fungi: review.o.o isn't cgit yet iirc | 19:58 |
| clarkb | because of this thing | 19:58 |
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| fungi | and this is going to turn it on? | 19:59 |
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| clarkb | no, this just fixes pathing for if/when we turn it on | 19:59 |
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| * mordred is excited about turning that on | 19:59 | |
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| fungi | my confusion is over zaro's comment to watch out for it when restarting gerrit | 19:59 |
| clarkb | I think just make sure that gitweb still works | 20:00 |
| zaro | i just meant, check that it works. | 20:00 |
| clarkb | so mabe we want to check that on review-dev too | 20:00 |
| mordred | yeah - I think the subject of the patch is bong | 20:00 |
| mordred | it's also about fixing gitweb links | 20:00 |
| fungi | ahh, thanks. make sure that change didn't break gitweb links and/or the config parsing at startup. got i | 20:00 |
| anteaya | I'm clicking things in review-dev, what should I be clicking? | 20:00 |
| fungi | y | 20:00 |
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| fungi | we're waay over time | 20:01 |
| zaro | mordred: yes, could have been more general with that. | 20:01 |
| fungi | let's move this to #-infra | 20:01 |
| fungi | thanks all! | 20:01 |
| mordred | zaro: no worries :) | 20:01 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 3 20:01:28 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-11-03-19.01.html | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-11-03-19.01.txt | 20:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-11-03-19.01.log.html | 20:01 |
| lifeless | o/ | 20:01 |
| fungi | sorry ttx/tc members! | 20:01 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:01 |
| * mordred waves at lifeless | 20:01 | |
| mestery | o/ | 20:01 |
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| * mestery waves at lifeless and mordred | 20:02 | |
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| * mordred waves at mestery | 20:02 | |
| * mestery feels a breeze | 20:02 | |
| * fungi wonders how many tc members are still asleep/hung over | 20:02 | |
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| jaypipes | o..../ | 20:02 |
| * angdraug settles down in a far corner | 20:02 | |
| mestery | lol | 20:02 |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 20:02 |
| * edleafe lurks as usual | 20:02 | |
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| * krotscheck wonders if ttx is still hung over/asleep ;) | 20:03 | |
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| flaper87 | o/ | 20:04 |
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| daemontool | \o | 20:04 |
| mordred | krotscheck: I saw him before once in the past | 20:04 |
| krotscheck | mordred: So he's not schrödinger's ttx? | 20:04 |
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| mordred | krotscheck: he may or may not be | 20:04 |
| * mestery wonders if he should just go vote in the school board election instead of waiting for the TC meeting to start | 20:04 | |
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| mordred | I only count 6 members so far | 20:05 |
| mordred | which is not quorum | 20:05 |
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| markmcclain | o/ | 20:05 |
| mordred | there's 7 | 20:06 |
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| * lifeless waves all around | 20:06 | |
| lifeless | well if we're not quorum | 20:06 |
| lifeless | can we perhaps do the open chat bits | 20:07 |
| * mordred hands lifeless a nice steak that's almost not chewed on | 20:07 | |
| mihgen | daylight savings in ttx timezone.. ? | 20:07 |
| lifeless | there are three things that came up at the summit I wanted to get broad tc viewpoints on before writing up as governance resolutions | 20:07 |
| * dhellmann is pretty sure ttx lives in UTC | 20:07 | |
| jaypipes | mihgen: yeah, he may have been caught by that | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : do you want to startmeeting so we get this logged? | 20:07 |
| lifeless | #startmeeting tc | 20:07 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 3 20:07:53 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is lifeless. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:07 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:07 | |
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| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:07 |
| lifeless | (hopefully thats the right name) | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | yup | 20:08 |
| lifeless | so, skipping the voting bits for now, we have open discussion with a few starter points | 20:08 |
| lifeless | Open discussion | 20:08 |
| lifeless | Summit feedback | 20:08 |
| lifeless | Reconsidering delayed project team applications | 20:08 |
| lifeless | Automating objective tag updates | 20:08 |
| lifeless | Should TC require scaling information from projects (lifeless)? | 20:08 |
| lifeless | Leadership training for PTL & TC (lifeless) | 20:08 |
| lifeless | Stabilisation cycle (lifeless) | 20:08 |
| lifeless | is there any general summit feedback ? | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:09 |
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| mestery | lifeless: Other than the usual bits about burnout, it was great seeing folks! And Tokyo was quite pleasant :) | 20:09 |
| mordred | the summit was great- I was very strangely NOT complete toast at the end but was actually excited about stuff | 20:09 |
| mordred | which is typically not my emotional or mental state by friday/saturday | 20:09 |
| lifeless | It was great, but my brain had porridged by the last session every day | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | I think it was great, it was packed. The venues layout was a bit unfortunate but I guess there was nothing we could do about that. | 20:10 |
| angdraug | what about talks selection process? | 20:10 |
| lifeless | working till 6 when doing such intense stuff is melty | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | I think the TC + Board meeting was better this time | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | I heard from one or two folks who might have wanted to participate in design discussions, but are not ATCs, that they feel the design sessions are being more aggressively closed off to new contributors. One of these people is building up a team with the intent of contributing upstream, so that was particularly concerning to me. | 20:10 |
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| jeblair | dhellmann: what stopped them? | 20:10 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: I've heard a similar thing around facilitation of input | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: oh uh | 20:10 |
| mordred | dhellmann: I tink that's a really good point - and speaks to a conflict I think has been growing | 20:11 |
| angdraug | dhellmann: wasn't our experience with puppet-openstack, these were open to lots of new people | 20:11 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: which the leadership training thing overlaps with | 20:11 |
| mordred | which is "summit as place for the current cores to plan" vs. "summit as a place to grow community" | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | jeblair : the separation, in part, but also an impression from the way the sessions were run that they might not be welcome. There was no "hard" blocker. | 20:11 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: was it that they couldn't get in the room; couldn't identify the session; couldn't participate once in the room ? | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | angdraug : good to hear | 20:11 |
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| flaper87 | dhellmann: do we know what projects exactly left them out? What were the exact actions? | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | This would be great material for the diversity group | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : a bit more of the latter, though I'd need to get more details | 20:12 |
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| lifeless | flaper87: I don't; the stuff I've heard is second hand | 20:12 |
| flaper87 | which I happen to have volunteered to help | 20:12 |
| lifeless | flaper87: ruagair was telling me; perhaps he can follow up with you with more detail | 20:12 |
| mordred | flaper87: ++ | 20:12 |
| lifeless | flaper87: (though also see under leadership training) | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : I'll poll for more detail and get back to you directly | 20:12 |
| lifeless | angdraug: what about the talk selection process? | 20:12 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: dhellmann awesome, thanks! | 20:12 |
| jeblair | well, let's be clear -- we have intentionally tried to make it clear that it is not helpful for everyone in the world to attend a design session. in the past they have been overwhelmed by people showing up requesting features but with no resources to contribute. | 20:12 |
| angdraug | lifeless: https://www.mirantis.com/blog/fixing-openstack-summit-submission-process/ | 20:12 |
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| mordred | I'd like to argue that growth and depth are different goals for session | 20:13 |
| mordred | (yeah, what jeblair said) | 20:13 |
| angdraug | there was a lot of grumbling before the summit that the selection process is not transparent enough | 20:13 |
| mordred | and I think _both_ are valuable | 20:13 |
| mordred | but trying to do both in a single session is almost impossible | 20:13 |
| angdraug | disclaimer: my talk wasn't accepted, too :) | 20:13 |
| flaper87 | jeblair: mordred yeah, that's why I'd like to understand what happened exactly | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | jeblair : true, but in this case these are folks who do want to become contributors so we may be sending that message too strongly | 20:13 |
| mordred | because in one case it's about growing context | 20:13 |
| lifeless | angdraug: that seems to be a foundation thing not tc | 20:13 |
| jeblair | i think people with resources to contribute should very much be welcome, but a design session isn't the place for "can you add foo to neutron?" | 20:13 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | angdraug : we don't select talks | 20:13 |
| lifeless | angdraug: - I agree with the criticism, but I think the most we can do here is resolve that we think it should be open and ask the board/foundation to discuss | 20:14 |
| angdraug | well maybe that's part of the problem ) | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | jeblair : right, this is a company building a new upstream team with the intent of being involved and contributing code, etc. not just "requirements" | 20:14 |
| lifeless | angdraug: I don't think the tc *should* own talk selection :) | 20:14 |
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| flaper87 | lifeless: ++ | 20:14 |
| angdraug | no, but TC operates in a fairly open manner which can serve as an example | 20:14 |
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| mordred | angdraug: ++ | 20:15 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: did they talk to the relevant ptls? | 20:15 |
| jaypipes | angdraug: I will quit the TC if I am forced to review eleventy billion vendor crap talk proposals for the conference. | 20:15 |
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| lifeless | angdraug: sure; anyhow - I suggest your next step is to start a thread on the foundation list, and if it needs tc support, propose a governance resolution to the effect tat we support openness there | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | jeblair : I'll have to get more detail about what actually happened, this was a somewhat casual comment dropped when I didn't have time for that | 20:15 |
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| lifeless | any other summit feedback ? | 20:15 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: cool | 20:15 |
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| mordred | lifeless: moar robot restaurant at all summits | 20:15 |
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| angdraug | lifeless: thanks, I'll do that | 20:15 |
| flaper87 | mordred: ++ | 20:15 |
| greghaynes | mordred: ++ | 20:16 |
| angdraug | mordred: ++ | 20:16 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: sounds like we need to tweak teh messaging.. ie ATCs and those who intend to contribute in the upcoming cycle | 20:16 |
| mordred | markmcclain: ++ | 20:16 |
| edleafe | markmcclain: technical contributors, present and future | 20:16 |
| lifeless | #topic Reconsidering delayed project team applications | 20:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reconsidering delayed project team applications (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:16 | |
| lifeless | ^ next thing from the list | 20:17 |
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| flaper87 | there are 2 projects that need to be reconsidered and from the TC m-l thread, it sounds those will be discussed next week | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | markmcclain : right | 20:17 |
| lifeless | there is no annotation about it; I presume this is saying 'is it time for us to do that yet'? Or perhaps its reconsidering the decision to defer? | 20:17 |
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| flaper87 | At least, jaypipes mentioned Monasca and Fuel on the meeting thread | 20:18 |
| jeblair | looks like monasca, fuel, compass are on our calendar for reconsidering "when mitaka is started" | 20:18 |
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| jaypipes | markmcclain: honestly, sounds like a way for people to game the purpose of the design summit to gain entrance when they have no intent to contribute. | 20:18 |
| lifeless | they are still in the backlog on the wiki page | 20:18 |
| jaypipes | markmcclain: see: Paris design summit sessions. | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | ttx mentioned in that thread that it would be good to have a mentor assigned to each project to pull together details about where they stand before we proceed | 20:19 |
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| lifeless | I believe ttx was going to play matchmaker | 20:19 |
| angdraug | for the record, I've updated https://review.openstack.org/#/c/199232/ with links to reports on current state of what was raised as blockers the last time fuel was discussed | 20:19 |
| jaypipes | angdraug: excellent work on that, BTW, thank you. | 20:19 |
| lifeless | so lets defer this till we have a ttx? | 20:19 |
| jaypipes | lifeless: yeah, I think a vote on these next week was the general consensus from the ML. | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | yeah, unless we have volunteers now? | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | oh, definitely defer the voting | 20:20 |
| flaper87 | I guess we can add them to the meeting topics anyway | 20:20 |
| lifeless | I'll put them in the list for next week after the meeting | 20:20 |
| lifeless | #topic Automating objective tag updates | 20:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Automating objective tag updates (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:20 | |
| daemontool | sorry, what's a ttx? | 20:20 |
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| lifeless | daemontool: the chair of this meeting | 20:20 |
| daemontool | ty | 20:20 |
| lifeless | daemontool: thierry carrez | 20:20 |
| lifeless | I don't know who put this topic up | 20:21 |
| lifeless | if you're here, speak up :) | 20:21 |
| lifeless | ... deferring to next week | 20:22 |
| lifeless | #topic Should TC require scaling information from projects (lifeless) | 20:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Should TC require scaling information from projects (lifeless) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:22 | |
| angdraug | lifeless: that was ttx | 20:22 |
| lifeless | so this came out of one of the cross project sessions | 20:22 |
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| lifeless | I'll turn it into a governance thing, but I wanted to have some informal discussion first | 20:22 |
| lifeless | the basic idea is that we're missing at a governance level: a clear lexicon for talking about scaling | 20:23 |
| lifeless | (e.g. request rate vs cloud-size vs workload dynamics) | 20:23 |
| mordred | I will agree that there is no clear lexicon for this currently | 20:23 |
| lifeless | and that projects should be responsible for their own scaling destiny but | 20:23 |
| lifeless | we can and should require them to document how they scale, and how deployers should scale them | 20:24 |
| angdraug | how can you keep something like that objective? | 20:24 |
| lifeless | e.g. does $project scale by a single big cluster, or a federation of clusters, or ... | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | mmh, isn't that part of the deployment docs? | 20:24 |
| mihgen | scale has a number of implications on architecture in general, not only deployment architecture | 20:24 |
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| lifeless | flaper87: certainly you'd expect it there, but it also speaks to the architecture and design | 20:25 |
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| lifeless | flaper87: e.g. if someone wants to make nova more scalable, what does that mean? Whats the vision there? | 20:25 |
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| lifeless | (I happen to know, but tribal knowledge vs clear articulation) | 20:25 |
| lifeless | [and actually I suspect nova is one of the more clear cases] | 20:26 |
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| flaper87 | sure, I agree that's helpful. But, that's still documentation. I guess I'd rather require having docs than just architectural docs | 20:27 |
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| flaper87 | lifeless: I guess you're thinking to communicate this through a tag | 20:27 |
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| angdraug | one way to measure scalability objectively is require projects to run specific Rally test scenarios... | 20:27 |
| lifeless | flaper87: so you're not against the idea of us requiring that projects figure this out | 20:27 |
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| lifeless | angdraug: I don't actually care about object here. | 20:28 |
| lifeless | bah | 20:28 |
| lifeless | objective | 20:28 |
| angdraug | okay | 20:28 |
| lifeless | angdraug: I care that projects a) own the problem b) know they own it, c) communicate about it | 20:28 |
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| lifeless | flaper87: I don't know if a tag is the right thing, but perhaps it is | 20:28 |
| flaper87 | I'm not against the idea this is something projects should figure out | 20:28 |
| lifeless | flaper87: I'm entirely fine if we say that this goes in the deploy docs | 20:28 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: I don't think it is, which is why I mentioned it | 20:28 |
| flaper87 | deploy docs should be fine | 20:29 |
| lifeless | flaper87: but I *do* think this should be a basic thing that we require of everyone | 20:29 |
| jaypipes | lifeless: perhaps this is something we can have the newly-formed performance working group be responsible for enforcing the documentation requirements in such a tag? | 20:29 |
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| dhellmann | so the proposal is that we just have projects include this kind of information in their docs? what sort of governance change does that require? | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | jaypipes: ah, good thought | 20:30 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: if they wanted to take on following up with each project etc that would be great. | 20:30 |
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| lifeless | jaypipes: I worry that performance != scaling, and that a centralised WG may not be a good fit for the work needed. | 20:30 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: but we can certainly try that as a first iteration. | 20:30 |
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| lifeless | dhellmann: governance - I'm thinking a resolution that projects must do this, which is then included under "The project meets any policies that the TC requires all projects to meet" on http://governance.openstack.org/reference/new-projects-requirements.html | 20:31 |
| angdraug | lifeless: performance group is a subgroup of large deployments team, so it is specifically about performance at scale | 20:32 |
| lifeless | angdraug: this just illustrates how performance != scale :) | 20:32 |
| lifeless | angdraug: a small deployment doing very dynamic workloads may have huge scaling concerns | 20:32 |
| jaypipes | lifeless: angdraug knows the difference between scale and performance. he is saying that the perf working group deals with both. | 20:33 |
| angdraug | what he said :) | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: ok, I guess that makes sense. We could collect some other basic expectations for documentation at the same time or in another patch. | 20:33 |
| flaper87 | I honestly don't know if this should be part of the governance enforcement. If we're going to make it so, I'd like to see other docs being required as well | 20:34 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: I'd like to make other docs things separate, because each thing we ask for implies a chunk of work | 20:34 |
| flaper87 | even basic deployment, which in some cases are missing | 20:34 |
| lifeless | flaper87: so, for servers, having basic deployment docs seems like a thing we should indeed require | 20:34 |
| lifeless | flaper87: much as we require the project testing interface so they can be CI tested | 20:34 |
| lifeless | and I'd support that; just suggest it be a series of patches. | 20:35 |
| flaper87 | lifeless:++ | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: sure | 20:35 |
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| lifeless | ok, I think there's little disagreement here, so I'll put a proposal up in the near future | 20:35 |
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| lifeless | #topic Leadership training for PTL & TC (lifeless) | 20:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Leadership training for PTL & TC (lifeless) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:35 | |
| lifeless | this was suggested to me in a hallway track session :) | 20:36 |
| lifeless | basically, we've got 2.5k folk in our technical sub-community | 20:36 |
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| lifeless | and at the moment a completely adhoc set of skills for doing the leadership | 20:36 |
| lifeless | we're voted in and that doesn't imply knowing how to ... lead | 20:36 |
| mestery | lifeless: I'd consider it more tribal knowledge, but we're close | 20:36 |
| * fungi certainly doesn't know how to lead. recommendations welcome! | 20:37 | |
| lifeless | so, what do we think of the idea of having a (say) 2-day leadership course before each summit? paid for my the foundation | 20:37 |
| lifeless | s/my/by/ | 20:37 |
| lifeless | seems like a small amount of investment for an actually very important thing | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | I like the idea | 20:38 |
| flaper87 | fwiw, I've brought this up a couple of times from a TC perspective and a PTL perspective. One thing we did to help here was writing the project-team-guide but that's certainly enough. | 20:38 |
| lifeless | flaper87: *is enough* or *isn't enough* ? | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | I'm not sure we want to limit attendance to ptls, maybe all cores could be invited (to grow new ptls for the next cycle, for example) | 20:38 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: isn't* (sorry) | 20:38 |
| mestery | I like the idea too | 20:38 |
| markmcclain | concerned that it would make for a very loooong week | 20:38 |
| mestery | dhellmann: ++ | 20:39 |
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| lifeless | dhellmann: so theres a magnitude thing. Leadership courses in my experience are pretty hands-on for the teachers | 20:39 |
| jeblair | i'm not a fan of formalized leadership training | 20:39 |
| mestery | markmcclain: It would be optional, of course | 20:39 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: and 200+ cores is a big group | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: true | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | I like the idea but I'd like us, as a community, to think what else we can do throughout the cycle | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: I wouldn't expect them all to attend, and we could cap it | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | for example, how can we help folks to run for PTL ? | 20:39 |
| lifeless | jeblair: would you object to other people going? Like, is it a negative? Or you don't want to be forced to go? | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | I think part of the PTL job is to create new PTLs | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | What can we do to help spreading that knowledge? | 20:39 |
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| lifeless | flaper87: I think thats a good thing to do too. | 20:39 |
| anteaya | leadership isn't something you learn by taking a course | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | The same thing goes for the TC | 20:39 |
| fungi | my main objection to formal leadership training is that it's usually pretty terrible | 20:40 |
| daemontool | anteaya, ++ | 20:40 |
| jeblair | lifeless: forced to go? now i don't even like talking about it. | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: there are definitely skills that can be explained, though | 20:40 |
| ttx | erm | 20:40 |
| lifeless | jeblair: I'm trying to understand where you are coming from! I had no intention of suggesting mandatory attendance | 20:40 |
| mestery | I'm not sure we could force people to go even if we wanted to | 20:41 |
| fungi | to extend anteaya's comment, leadership isn't something you learn by taking a course, but you may learn it by teaching a course ;) | 20:41 |
| angdraug | I'm worried that having only some target people attend the course will create a divide between them and those who couldn't or chose not to attend | 20:41 |
| flaper87 | ttx: welcome ? | 20:41 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: I think mentoring is the best support structure of leadership skills, which yes can be learned | 20:41 |
| flaper87 | :D | 20:41 |
| lifeless | ttx: ola! | 20:41 |
| ttx | sorry had connection trouble | 20:41 |
| anteaya | fungi: true | 20:41 |
| * ttx catches up | 20:41 | |
| angdraug | anteaya: ++ | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | anteaya : ok, not everyone learns the same way | 20:42 |
| lifeless | anteaya: I think having a mentor is an important thing; courses can be useful too. | 20:42 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: yes | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | What I'm saying is: I'd like us to do something as a community rather than doing it at the summit. If we can get something going, we may as well start thinking how to bring this to the summit | 20:42 |
| lifeless | right now we have neither mentors nor courses. | 20:42 |
| ttx | are we at quorum now ? Or should we just defer all topics to next week ? | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | ttx: we had at least 7 when we started | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | ttx: if we can make it in 20mins, sure | 20:42 |
| lifeless | ttx: I don't know; I've another discussion topic to cover stil... | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | sure == "lets do it now" | 20:42 |
| fungi | the leadership summits which run before oscon might make an interesting model. how well have those worked (for those who have attended)? | 20:43 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : good question | 20:43 |
| lifeless | fungi: I believe they're an unconference, but yes an interesting model | 20:43 |
| lifeless | FWIW I suspect I can find a volunteer to research a -good- trainer if we were to have funds | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : do you have a specific course in mind, yet? or are you seeking approval for the general idea at this point? | 20:44 |
| persia | leadership unconference tends to cause leaders to emerge in ways that leadership lectures do not | 20:44 |
| ttx | Not a big fan of mandatory leadership training. Agree with fungi all the leadership training I've been forced to go through so far has been pretty terrible | 20:44 |
| lifeless | so the main thing I want to do is to get enough consensus that we can write a request to the foundation asking for money to put something on | 20:44 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I don't think this was meant to be mandatory | 20:44 |
| lifeless | which we'd need for either an unconference or a course | 20:44 |
| thingee | ttx: +1 | 20:44 |
| anteaya | I advocate for money for a formal mentoring program | 20:44 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: it was not meant to be mandatory | 20:44 |
| fungi | i'm more of an unconference person myself, so maybe it's different strokes for different folks | 20:44 |
| anteaya | which includes outreachy | 20:45 |
| mordred | I have never taken a leadership training course that has been good. I have taken many leadership training courses | 20:45 |
| mordred | this does not mean that future courses will not be good | 20:45 |
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| mordred | merely that my past experience has been rather bad | 20:45 |
| lifeless | mordred: so gothicmindfood in particular was interested in this | 20:45 |
| angdraug | mordred: then again, see the definition of madness | 20:45 |
| lifeless | mordred: I rather suspect she could find a good one, if there is a good one | 20:45 |
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| persia | The only leadership training course that I know to be good involves many months of mud, and is too large a time sacrifice for most folk. | 20:45 |
| ttx | lifeless: do you have a specific training in mind ? | 20:45 |
| mordred | lifeless: I agree with you on that | 20:45 |
| lifeless | ttx: not at this point; it sounds like that would be important to a number of the folk here | 20:46 |
| anteaya | persia: that is my experience as well | 20:46 |
| anteaya | persia: including the mud | 20:46 |
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| pleia2 | fungi: I'm a big fan of the leadership summits and have attended a couple times, they're particularly valuable to me since they also still tend to skew toward open source leadership/communities | 20:46 |
| lifeless | ttx: so I'll see if gothicmindfood can lay hands on one. I believe zimmermans do one, for instance | 20:46 |
| pleia2 | actually, three times | 20:46 |
| jeblair | persia: now i'm seeing an opportunity to combine leadership training and the stabilization cycle (if we get the right group of people in 6 month mud-based leadership training) | 20:46 |
| lifeless | jeblair: ++ | 20:46 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 20:46 |
| lifeless | #topic Stabilisation cycle (lifeless) | 20:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Stabilisation cycle (lifeless) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:47 | |
| lifeless | speaking of | 20:47 |
| fungi | i have no problem bringing it to the foundation staff if there's a more concrete idea, but keep in mind we've just gotten approval for the 2016 budget so some budget wizardry may be necessary | 20:47 |
| mordred | fungi: we allocated _plenty_ of money for the 2016 budget :) | 20:47 |
| fungi | indeed | 20:47 |
| jeblair | mordred: i think that was fungi's point :) | 20:47 |
| lifeless | so in the cross project session | 20:47 |
| lifeless | I forget which one | 20:47 |
| jeblair | lifeless: priorities? | 20:48 |
| lifeless | there was lots of support for more effort on stabilisation | 20:48 |
| lifeless | jeblair: yes | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | fungi: maybe the thing to do is encourage folks to attend the leadership summit you and pleia2 mentioned | 20:48 |
| jeblair | or 'themes'? | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | jeblair : themes | 20:48 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: so a whole extra trip is a big deal for folk with families/larg travel loads | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : encourage not require | 20:48 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: I am talking opportunity | 20:48 |
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| lifeless | dhellmann: e.g. if they want to go but can't | 20:49 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: but could do 2 more days on the summit | 20:49 |
| anteaya | leadership work fries your brain | 20:49 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: for me, I spend 3 days travelling to get anywhere(and back) | 20:49 |
| anteaya | I don't see it mixing well with summit | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : yeah, I get it. Just looking at options. | 20:49 |
| lifeless | ok so stabilisation | 20:49 |
| lifeless | there was considerable concern that we *can't* do stabilisation work because orgs will push stuff up regardless | 20:50 |
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| fungi | or perhaps the concern was that we don't have an effective way to tell them that we'll be ignoring most of their feature patches in favor of bug fixes? | 20:50 |
| lifeless | I think we as tc need to lead the way to enable it | 20:50 |
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| lifeless | e.g specifically I'm thinking that we need to: | 20:50 |
| lifeless | 1) declare that in our view X% of time should be stabilisation work (whether thats 25%, 50%, whatever) for some cycle. | 20:51 |
| lifeless | 2) tell the *board* that we've declared this and ask them to communicate back to the member companies to please work with on this | 20:51 |
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| lifeless | 3) act as a point of contact for folk feeling squashed out or whatever | 20:52 |
| lifeless | I'm told that some companies tie bonuses to employees getting features into upstream | 20:52 |
| persia | (3) could be a significant time sink | 20:52 |
| ttx | lifeless: I don't expect that to make a lot of difference | 20:52 |
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| lifeless | so when we push back on features | 20:52 |
| lifeless | folk lose money | 20:52 |
| lifeless | and get very stressed | 20:52 |
| fungi | when we ignore languishing bugs, openstack breaks and folk lose money | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | I've the feeling we've tried this before (or at least some projects did) | 20:52 |
| mordred | I think a declaration in enough advance | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | Am I wrong? | 20:52 |
| lifeless | persia: compared to the time lost across 200+ cores dealing with intransigent contributors? | 20:53 |
| ttx | "telling the board" has never worked to influence priorities or get resources for specific things. | 20:53 |
| lifeless | persia: drop in the ocean | 20:53 |
| russellb | sorry i missed the meeting ... i got pwned by DST | 20:53 |
| mestery | I have a hard time seeing how any sort of declaration from the TC could be effective here | 20:53 |
| mordred | lifeless: I'd like to suggest an amendment to your suggestoin | 20:53 |
| fungi | russellb: utc for life! | 20:53 |
| mestery | How many of these orgs actually pay attention to what we're already declaring? | 20:53 |
| anteaya | russellb: everyone has their turn, thanks for taking one for the team | 20:53 |
| russellb | fungi: someone tell google calendar to support putting things in UTC time :( | 20:53 |
| persia | lifeless: Yes which implies that we don't really expect to do (3), so it is perhaps inappropriate to claim it? | 20:53 |
| ttx | We have been "telling the board" about a lot of things. | 20:53 |
| jaypipes | ttx: ++ | 20:53 |
| ttx | like "infra is important" | 20:53 |
| mordred | which is that in 2, we don't tell the board, we go the board and say "we'd like to take a cycle to do a stabalization cycle, whacha think, y'all on board with us?" | 20:53 |
| persia | russellb: Tell Google Calendar you live in Reykjavik | 20:54 |
| lifeless | mestery: the users are telling us they want it, the product wg is telling us they want very *specific* features, and the product wg is a delegate of the board | 20:54 |
| ttx | or "technical writers could be helpful" | 20:54 |
| russellb | persia: noted | 20:54 |
| stevebaker | I hear some on the board want an even faster feature velocity :/ | 20:54 |
| angdraug | just a thought: how about declaring that if by milestone-2 an objective bugs metric per project doesn't reach a level considered stable, the project has to announce an early feature freeze? | 20:54 |
| lifeless | persia: no, it implies that we can save a huge amount of time if we can divert the effort from individuals into an org-to-org discussion | 20:54 |
| fungi | apparently you also told the board the big tent was a thing, and then at the last meeting they were all like "wait, what, that happened?" | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | stevebaker: indeed, and that was brought up at the meeting on monday | 20:54 |
| jeblair | fungi: well, 1/24 of the board | 20:54 |
| persia | lifeless: Ah, at that level. I retract my concern | 20:54 |
| fungi | heh | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | fungi : to be fair, only a couple of board members seemed surprised | 20:55 |
| lifeless | ttx: I'm proposing a specific ask of the board, not a general 'you should know' statement | 20:55 |
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| lifeless | mordred: whats your amendment ? | 20:55 |
| mordred | which is that in 2, we don't tell the board, we go the board and say "we'd like to take a cycle to do a stabalization cycle, whacha think, y'all on board with us?" | 20:55 |
| lifeless | mordred: fair, sure. | 20:55 |
| ttx | lifeless: well, we did formally ask for a few things in the past, too | 20:55 |
| lifeless | ttx: like the dco, which we got... | 20:55 |
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| anteaya | after asking and asking and asking | 20:56 |
| mordred | I belive we also need to be clearer on this | 20:56 |
| ttx | lifeless: that's different from influencing resources | 20:56 |
| mordred | not "we want to do more stabalization" | 20:56 |
| fungi | persistence pays off, apparently | 20:56 |
| lifeless | I know that the board members don't actually control the engingeering at their orgs | 20:56 |
| mordred | but rather "N will be a stabalization release with _no_ features" | 20:56 |
| ttx | lifeless: right, my point | 20:56 |
| lifeless | but right now the leaders in various projects believe they can't even *try* | 20:56 |
| ttx | it's doable to switch to DCO, that's a board decision. | 20:56 |
| mordred | and we ask the foundation staff to help us communicate that to all of the orgs out there | 20:56 |
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| lifeless | so I think it is up to us to find a way to enable them | 20:56 |
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| ttx | it's much more difficult to relay that nobody should add features | 20:56 |
| mordred | ttx: yes it is | 20:57 |
| mordred | ttx: however, we should still try | 20:57 |
| lifeless | I believe it is worth doing | 20:57 |
| lifeless | does anyone here object to trying ? | 20:57 |
| mordred | it turns out that we DO have the ability as a project to not take features | 20:57 |
| ttx | Also not sure we can have a blanket % for stable work for all projects | 20:57 |
| persia | Many orgs will add features in forks, saving them for the following cycle. | 20:57 |
| ttx | persia: ++ | 20:57 |
| lifeless | persia: I could care less if they do that. | 20:57 |
| mordred | same here | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : we'd need to be careful with scheduling. Is N too soon? | 20:57 |
| lifeless | persia: if we save the core bandwidth - our bottleneck - duing N, (or O, or whatever) - great | 20:58 |
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| flaper87 | there are projects doing multi-cycle schedules | 20:58 |
| persia | lifeless: when they use engineering that might otherwise collaborate in reviews? | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | this would just break that | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | I don't mind trying/fighting for this | 20:58 |
| lifeless | ok so it sounds like | 20:58 |
| ttx | Hmm, just two points I want to salvage from the agenda in the remaining 2 min | 20:58 |
| lifeless | 0) discuss with the PTLs | 20:58 |
| lifeless | 1) etc my proposal with mordreds amendment | 20:59 |
| jeblair | flaper87: multi-cycle schedules might still work with 50% stabilization effort | 20:59 |
| lifeless | I'll put up a thing | 20:59 |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : maybe rather than declaring that all projects will do this, we build a way for a given project to declare that they will do it, and then let them decide when it's appropriate? | 20:59 |
| lifeless | ttx: go | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | Might be a good cross-project session for the next cycle | 20:59 |
| lifeless | flaper87: I think we need to socialise this now | 20:59 |
| markmcclain | stabilization is a tricky thing because there will likely be some features we'll want in a release so for those that do have long term roadmaps they could select 1-2 important ones | 20:59 |
| lifeless | flaper87: its a discussion with 4 or so different constituencies | 20:59 |
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| flaper87 | dhellmann: that would be better. Instead of doing it on every project, we let projects to schedule their own | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | I really feel like some projects have done this but I might be wrong. I'm saying this because I'd like to hear the feedback | 21:00 |
| lifeless | flaper87: I don't think the board is capable of agreeing at that granularity | 21:00 |
| mordred | isn't the real thing that's being asked for is the air cover for projects who want to do it and feel that they cannot make the choice to? | 21:00 |
| lifeless | exactly, I'm proposing we put in place the air cover | 21:00 |
| mordred | yah | 21:00 |
| ttx | time is off | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | mordred: yup | 21:00 |
| edleafe | 'stabilization' is also vague. We should first identify the instabilities | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: end the meeting | 21:01 |
| mestery | edleafe: ++ | 21:01 |
| flaper87 | :D | 21:01 |
| lifeless | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 3 21:01:13 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-11-03-20.07.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-11-03-20.07.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-11-03-20.07.log.html | 21:01 |
| lifeless | edleafe: mestery: actually I don't think that that is compatible with what we need | 21:01 |
| thingee | #startmeeting crossproject | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 3 21:01:30 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is thingee. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'crossproject' | 21:01 |
| thingee | hi everyone! | 21:01 |
| lifeless | o/ | 21:01 |
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| thingee | courtesy ping for smelikyan morganfainberg adrian_otto bswartz slagle | 21:01 |
| thingee | courtesy ping for adrian_otto mestery kiall jeblair thinrichs j^2 stevebaker | 21:02 |
| thingee | courtesy ping for mtreinish Daisy Piet notmyname ttx isviridov gordc SlickNik | 21:02 |
| thingee | courtesy ping for cloudnull loquacities thingee hyakuhei redrobot dirk TravT | 21:02 |
| thingee | courtesy ping for vipul annegentle SergeyLukjanov devananda boris-42 nikhil_k and lifeless | 21:02 |
| * edleafe is still lurking in the shadows | 21:02 | |
| Jokke_ | o/ | 21:02 |
| ttx | o/ | 21:02 |
| nikhil | o/ | 21:02 |
| smcginnis | o/ | 21:02 |
| * fungi wonders how this courtesy ping list is assembled | 21:02 | |
| stevebaker | \o | 21:02 |
| Piet | Running late | 21:02 |
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| thingee | fungi: copy/paste from last chair | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:02 |
| fungi | (not that i need more irc highlights) | 21:02 |
| thingee | Agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting | 21:02 |
| Piet | Meeting with LBaaS folks | 21:02 |
| thingee | #topic Review past action items | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review past action items (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:03 | |
| jeblair | thingee: please s/jeblair/fungi/ :) | 21:03 |
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| dhellmann | thingee : would you add me to the ping list, please? | 21:03 |
| markmcclain | thingee: that looks to mix of old/new ptls | 21:03 |
| docaedo | o/ (sans courtesy ping!) | 21:03 |
| notmyname | here | 21:03 |
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| thingee | so the only thing I noticed from the previous meeting that's still left is... | 21:04 |
| thingee | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/221163/ | 21:04 |
| thingee | from the api-wg Add http400 for reference to nonexistent resource | 21:04 |
| thingee | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/221163/ | 21:04 |
| thingee | I think we were expecting PTL love with that review... | 21:05 |
| thingee | anything else I'm missing? | 21:05 |
| thingee | #topic Horizontal Team Announcements | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Horizontal Team Announcements (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:05 | |
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| dhellmann | please check the [release] topic on the mailing list for several announcements related to release process and tool changes | 21:06 |
| fungi | #info Gerrit 2.11 upgrade maintenance will be Wednesday, November 18 | 21:06 |
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| thingee | #info Release communication change | 21:07 |
| thingee | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/078277.html | 21:07 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/078113.html | 21:07 |
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| thingee | #info release process change | 21:07 |
| Jokke_ | could we also get everyone announcing releases to use that [release] tag in the subject, please? | 21:07 |
| thingee | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/078280.html | 21:07 |
| thingee | #info release stable changes | 21:07 |
| thingee | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/078281.html | 21:07 |
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| dhellmann | Jokke_ : release announcements should actually be going to openstack-announce not openstack-dev | 21:07 |
| dhellmann | thingee : thanks | 21:08 |
| Jokke_ | dhellmann: they do ... and most of them has [release] tag in the subject so they are easy to filter, but there are some odds that comes through :P | 21:08 |
| dhellmann | Jokke_ : ok | 21:08 |
| fungi | those are probably ones not being done through the release management scripts | 21:08 |
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| thingee | #info consensus from the summit on distributed lock management | 21:09 |
| thingee | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/078214.html | 21:09 |
| thingee | thanks lifeless for write up | 21:09 |
| thingee | anything else? | 21:10 |
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| thingee | #topic Proposed changes to the cross-project meeting | 21:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Proposed changes to the cross-project meeting (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:10 | |
| thingee | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-October/077997.html | 21:11 |
| thingee | darn was hoping anne would be here | 21:11 |
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| thingee | so in the summit session... | 21:11 |
| thingee | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-crossproject-comms | 21:11 |
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| thingee | we discussed the proposal of having an ad-hoc meeting as oppose to have meetings at a set time like we do today | 21:12 |
| ttx | thingee: skipped the design summit feedback topic ? | 21:12 |
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| * thingee was feeling anxious | 21:13 | |
| thingee | ttx: sorry accident | 21:13 |
| persia | thingee: was there not also discussion of a dedicated channel for those to avoid schedule hassle here? | 21:13 |
| ttx | ok, let's talk about that after this one | 21:13 |
| thingee | the idea would be the meetings would be held in a separate channel is neccesary, but people can call meetings for the needed people and announce them for the public to attend as well. | 21:14 |
| ttx | thingee: one consequence is that we wouldn't have news anymore, only targeted meetings | 21:14 |
| bknudson | my understanding of the way that the x-proj work for service catalog standardization is going to be coordinated is in their own standing meeting | 21:15 |
| notmyname | the idea presented as a replacement for the meeting (curated list of "current happenings") isn't bad. the thing I worry about though is completely automating away interpersonal communication | 21:15 |
| bknudson | so that will be an interesting experiment in x-proj work | 21:15 |
| Jokke_ | That sounds like really messy and good way to exclude lots of people who don't have time or resources to keep track if and when such meeting was called together | 21:15 |
| thingee | this would be great because hopefully meetings would be less frequent, which could bring more usefulness to these kind of meetings. | 21:15 |
| Jokke_ | I'm all up for own channel that is for ad-hoc but I don't think it should replace the static one | 21:15 |
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| thingee | Jokke_: my advice to those people is don't rely on ptl's to attend. I voiced in the session to assign people to be the liaison. | 21:16 |
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| thingee | ptls are not reliable here. | 21:16 |
| thingee | nor should they be | 21:16 |
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| bknudson | does the product wg have their own weekly meeting? seems like there's overlap with this one. | 21:16 |
| bknudson | (didn't find it https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings ) | 21:16 |
| thingee | this existed before product wg | 21:16 |
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| thingee | but seriously, I don't know what the overlap is | 21:17 |
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| Jokke_ | thingee: I'm not PTL and I don't have intention to track if someone happens to call meeting for some arbitrary time ;) | 21:17 |
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| fungi | looks like they do wednesdays 20-21 hour utc | 21:18 |
| dhellmann | Jokke_ : I think the idea is that only folks interested need to attend those meetings, so they would schedule it at a time that is convenient for them | 21:18 |
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| fungi | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/product-team | 21:18 |
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| thingee | so here's the proposal, lets allow the meetings to happen as they needed, we'll pick the days they can possibly happen... they won't just be any random days. | 21:19 |
| ttx | OK so the two concerns seem to be: losing in-person direct communication of random things (the "news" part of this meeting), and increased difficulty to follow cross-project spec work due to weirdly-scheduled meetings | 21:19 |
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| thingee | but teams should be assigning someone or multiple people to attend the meetings to report back if the ptl is too busy. | 21:19 |
| fungi | also worth noting the wiki list of meetings is likely best replaced by a link to http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/ now | 21:19 |
| Jokke_ | dhellmann: and that's perfectly fine, but if it kills this one clear moment every week to catch up what's going on, I don't think it's way to go. It might be just me who relies for this meeting and if so I just suck my losses | 21:19 |
| fungi | the meeting in question is listed there | 21:20 |
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| lifeless | thingee: so I haven't replied to the list | 21:20 |
| lifeless | thingee: esummitbusy | 21:20 |
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| lifeless | thingee: but I really don't like the idea of having to figure out every single week where I should be | 21:20 |
| lifeless | thingee: meetings are super disruptive to my flow | 21:20 |
| lifeless | thingee: and I suspect to other peoples too | 21:20 |
| lifeless | thingee: the back-to-back thing works welle | 21:20 |
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| lifeless | thingee: I have *no* objection to folk having additional adhoc meetings | 21:21 |
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| thingee | Jokke_: may I suggest for folks that rely on this meeting to keep up to use the dev summary from the newsletter http://www.openstack.org/blog/2015/09/openstack-weekly-community-newsletter-sept-19-25/ | 21:21 |
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| nikhil | the channel cant be a replacement, surely an addition to xprj work | 21:22 |
| Jokke_ | somehow for me the proposal seems like Product WG wants to take over this meeting, so I'd like to ask how many of the participans are part of that WG currently? | 21:22 |
| thingee | lifeless: so the idea would be we would have one (or two?) potential day(s) picked out the meeting can be called for, but they might not happen. | 21:22 |
| dhellmann | Jokke_ : that's not where the proposal came from | 21:22 |
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| thingee | Just like today, it will be announced a day before on a list. | 21:22 |
| fungi | why would the product working group want to take over this meeting? as i said, they meet wednesdays | 21:22 |
| thingee | So the only real change is, the meeting may happen, or it may not. | 21:23 |
| thingee | that's about it | 21:23 |
| persia | My memory of the session was that things that needed everyone would be here, and things that only needed 2-3 projects could be at more convenient times for the relevant stakeholders. | 21:23 |
| thingee | does anyone have a problem with the meeting potentially not happening some weeks? | 21:23 |
| thingee | becausee there is nothing to discuss | 21:23 |
| Jokke_ | dhellmann: fungi: that's what the etherpad says under "Way Forward:" | 21:23 |
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| lifeless | thingee: so I'm being more specific - if the meeting is on different days week to week there's something like 90% chance I won't be able to make it at all | 21:23 |
| fungi | thingee: we've got precedent. we already have cancelled in the past when the agenda was empty | 21:24 |
| lifeless | thingee: my us-overlap hours combined with other meetings that already exist | 21:24 |
| thingee | otherwise people are saying, yes we want to have this meeting to discuss what is already been given in the dev list summary. | 21:24 |
| lifeless | thingee: plus the disruption of a meeting in the middle of a productive time period | 21:24 |
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| lifeless | thingee: I have no problem with a cancelled meeting | 21:24 |
| thingee | lifeless: ok, so the day(s) won't change. | 21:24 |
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| thingee | or time | 21:24 |
| lifeless | thingee: sure, so this time slot but cancelled if nothing to discuss - fine | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | thingee : I'm happy for this meeting to continue as-is, and I will try to attend as often as possible, but I have already told folks not to expect me to repeat myself about release-related things in this meeting. | 21:25 |
| smcginnis | lifeless: +1 | 21:25 |
| thingee | dhellmann: +1 | 21:25 |
| notmyname | dhellmann: that seems harsh (or extreme) | 21:26 |
| thingee | cool, that's pretty much the proposal.. I guess it sounds scary when we propose it that people call the agenda (like we do today), and it can be cancelled otherwise (like we do today). | 21:26 |
| Jokke_ | thingee: I think you put it really well ... discussed over the meeting vs. given in the newsletter ... I hope that wasn't intentional other than the announcements part dhellmann referred to | 21:26 |
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| bknudson | "We need to make progress on migrating off Launchpad" -- what are we migrating to? | 21:26 |
| dhellmann | notmyname : I want the discussion on the ML for everyone to be able to be involved/informed | 21:26 |
| angdraug | bknudson: Maniphest | 21:27 |
| fungi | bknudson: and openstackid | 21:27 |
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| persia | +Reno +??? | 21:27 |
| fungi | bknudson: and specs.openstack.org | 21:27 |
| fungi | bknudson: it depends on what lp feature you're talking about, of course | 21:27 |
| thingee | notmyname, dhellmann: I think it goes back to what I said in the session... there are too many places people have discussions on things. It would be good if we can pick the places for certain things and leave it there for referencing. | 21:27 |
| notmyname | yeah, but flat-out rejecting one place that is designed for dissemination of info because people should have read it elsewhere seems like it would lead to less communication, not more | 21:27 |
| dhellmann | thingee : right | 21:28 |
| fungi | bknudson: the new release management toolchain is also replacing some things for which our community uses launchpad | 21:28 |
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| dhellmann | notmyname : I don't want 1/2 of the message in one place and 1/2 in another, and I don't think this meeting is particularly well suited to the discussion of the things I expect to be bringing up | 21:28 |
| fungi | bknudson: and uploading signed tarballs to pypi replaces yet another thing we do with launchpad now | 21:29 |
| nikhil | fungi: what abt bugs? | 21:30 |
| fungi | nikhil: maniphest | 21:30 |
| nikhil | cool | 21:30 |
| notmyname | dhellmann: yeah, I understand that. and yet here we are having a discussion about this during the meeting, not on the ML ;-) | 21:30 |
| thingee | notmyname: is this just in regard to release announcements, or all projects? | 21:30 |
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| dhellmann | notmyname : so don't expect me to repeat myself about this on the ML :-) | 21:30 |
| docaedo | just want to share I'm pretty excited about move to maniphest | 21:31 |
| nikhil | seems like we want to encourage async comm more on a few things | 21:31 |
| ttx | notmyname: what type of information do you think would be missing ? We have been asking for news all of Liberty cycle and very few apart from infra and release managhement have given news here | 21:31 |
| nikhil | but we should not get rid of real time , interactive comm -- what irc is made for | 21:31 |
| ttx | news that were already communicated on the ML | 21:32 |
| ttx | and already repeated in digest channels | 21:32 |
| Piet | docaedo: The cool thing about Phabricator is that it also has a mock review tool so we can move from Invision to a open source solution | 21:32 |
| dhellmann | nikhil : I don't want to get rid of it, just use it for the types of things it is more appropriate for. There's no reason for anyone to sit through a real-time info dump of announcements in this meeting, for example. | 21:32 |
| thingee | so for other project announcements, usually don't concern everyone IMO. ANy other time you want to communicate something it can be on the ML for those interested, or I find some announcements are successful related things, in which you can use the successbot https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Successes | 21:32 |
| ttx | so it feels like a request for infra/relmgt people to show up and talk on the channel you're used to tune to | 21:32 |
| notmyname | ttx: I think there's 2 types of things that happen in IRC meetings vs ML threads: (1) quick clarifying questions with real-time feedback and (2) prioritized things to highlight | 21:33 |
| thingee | notmyname: so ping for clairification on #openstack-dev? | 21:33 |
| notmyname | eg "this is the new release procedure" "oh, ok, so that means X for Y ...?" that might not otherwise be asked | 21:33 |
| fungi | i'm happy to keep popping in for this timeslot and announcing things if people really find it helpful, but i also don't mind reclaiming my tuesday evening ;) | 21:33 |
| notmyname | thingee: except the defined time for the meeting means people are here | 21:33 |
| notmyname | thingee: instead of "I wonder if that person is awake now" | 21:34 |
| nikhil | dhellmann: surely, but this meeting has been useful for getting wider audiences in cross prj efforts. sometimes the news isn't much of a news rather a well designed proposal that is good to go but needs some feedback | 21:34 |
| notmyname | and the Ml is very high traffic, to say the least. it's extremely easy to miss stuff on the ML | 21:34 |
| lifeless | nikhil: I believe dhellmann is differentiating between | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | notmyname : for release management, we'll be sending regular email updates about what projects ought to be focusing on at a given point in the cycle, deadlines coming up, etc. (covering your #2) | 21:34 |
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| lifeless | nikhil: operational release things | 21:34 |
| ttx | hmm, I guess we could keep the "town hall soapbox space" just after the TC meeting | 21:34 |
| fungi | i've generally never announced anything in here which didn't already have a corresponding broad announcement to at least the dev ml as well, but i guess it's possible for some people to have needle-in-haystack issues there | 21:34 |
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| lifeless | nikhil: and design work | 21:35 |
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| nikhil | lifeless: I am cool with that, just saying out loud on what | 21:35 |
| nikhil | what's been helpful | 21:35 |
| notmyname | don't hear me saying "meetings are awesome and must be kept". I hate meetings as much as the next dev. but I want to make sure that we have good/better communication, and it seems like the arguments against a meeting are about stuff we *could* do, so it's hard to judge its effectiveness against this meeting (IMO) | 21:35 |
| notmyname | I've found the highlighted cross-project and release stuff useful in here | 21:36 |
| notmyname | I've missed things on the mailing list | 21:36 |
| nikhil | fungi: right you are | 21:36 |
| Jokke_ | ++ | 21:36 |
| notmyname | and I've gotten clarification for (what I think are) small questions in this meeting. that I probably wouldn't have written an email about | 21:36 |
| Piet | ++ | 21:36 |
| ttx | thingee: maybe we should keep the slot for a random announcements space | 21:36 |
| thingee | notmyname: the dev list summary aims to help with the highlights you mightve missed from the week | 21:36 |
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| notmyname | instead I would have done a one-off question in -dev or -infra. and that means it's impossible to search or for anyone else to find | 21:37 |
| ttx | for randomly-present people | 21:37 |
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| nikhil | ttx: that's a really hip name you chose | 21:37 |
| Jokke_ | dhellmann: I think we're also fine you scripting your presence over the announcements and having hilight when people asks these dumb questions :P | 21:37 |
| notmyname | ttx: on the other hand, if people are refusing to mention stuff in a meeting that has already been brought up via the ML, then there isn't really a point to the meeting | 21:37 |
| thingee | ttx: I'm fine with keeping the slot. The only change we're really proposing here is we're not going to hold a meeting for announcements. Unless there is something to discuss cross-project wise, the meeting could be cancelled | 21:37 |
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| lifeless | thingee: so where would announcements go | 21:38 |
| lifeless | ? | 21:38 |
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| ttx | lifeless: they already happen on the ML | 21:38 |
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| ttx | not here | 21:38 |
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| thingee | lifeless: what are the kind of announcements people make today? | 21:38 |
| thingee | that involved others to know? | 21:38 |
| lifeless | so, lets talk about constraints | 21:38 |
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| lifeless | we announced them | 21:38 |
| ttx | aw | 21:38 |
| lifeless | and gave status updates | 21:38 |
| lifeless | many times | 21:38 |
| lifeless | and at the last summit folk - old hands, not new folk - were asking what they were | 21:39 |
| lifeless | I'm not sure that announcing them here would work better | 21:39 |
| thingee | I've covered your constraint discussions in the dev list summary before. | 21:39 |
| ttx | lifeless: right. You can't expect people to be present here, so annoucning something at the meeting is a bit useless | 21:39 |
| lifeless | but 'its on the list' isn't a sufficient thing | 21:39 |
| lifeless | ttx: we announced them *on the list* | 21:39 |
| persia | Nor is here a sufficient thing | 21:39 |
| ttx | lifeless: and on this meeting | 21:39 |
| lifeless | ttx: and as thingee says they were in the dev summary too | 21:40 |
| lifeless | so I guess my point is defense in depth | 21:40 |
| nikhil | yeah, so the kind of awareness this meeting builds is lost with making ad-hoc or off-to-async-ML change | 21:40 |
| ttx | my point is... announcing on the meeting doesn't really change a thing. People ignored the discussion because they thought it didn't affect them | 21:40 |
| ttx | they ignored it on the ML, on the dev digest *and* on the meeting. | 21:41 |
| thingee | here's an idea... | 21:41 |
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| thingee | lets try it out | 21:42 |
| * notmyname predicts that someday elected positions in openstack will be required (strongly encouraged) to submit frequent status updates "up" | 21:42 | |
| persia | Ad-hoc forces polity acceptance, as those invited to be present become aware they must be present. | 21:42 |
| ttx | diluting communication channels can have an unintended consequence of people ignoring all of them | 21:42 |
| thingee | if we find the new means of announcement is not working out, we'll talk it out on the dev list and could bring back the meeting? | 21:42 |
| thingee | anyone opposed to trying it out? | 21:43 |
| dhellmann | thingee : wfm | 21:43 |
| ttx | thingee: let's do that, and switch to next topic while there is still time :) | 21:43 |
| bknudson | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wfG8ngFvPk -- he he | 21:43 |
| thingee | #action thingee to working Anne on finalizing guideline for approval by community | 21:43 |
| notmyname | thingee: I can work with that. the goal isn't process, it's communication. communication is suboptimal now, so I'm good with trying new things. just don't want to lose anything good we have in favor of the new | 21:44 |
| thingee | #topic Design Summit feedback | 21:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Design Summit feedback (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:44 | |
| ttx | How did the event work for you ? Is there any change you'd like to make ? | 21:44 |
| ttx | Was any room crowded ? | 21:44 |
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| notmyname | since this was shared in person, are we allowed to talk about it in the meeting? ;-) | 21:44 |
| notmyname | (just kidding!) | 21:45 |
| bknudson | there was a rumor that the workgroup rooms were going to be smaller but they were plenty big for us | 21:45 |
| ttx | The main feedback I got outside of the design summit feedback session was that 5 days is much better than 4. | 21:45 |
| smcginnis | ttx: +2 | 21:45 |
| notmyname | ttx: yes! | 21:45 |
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| ttx | 4 days with complete overlap makes it completely impossible for cross-project devs to attend the rest of the summit | 21:45 |
| thingee | notmyname: communication was horrible in person, so yes ;D | 21:45 |
| * thingee had trouble hearing people to take notes | 21:45 | |
| ttx | I feel like the setup also failed to gets devs to ops sessions (and the other way around) | 21:45 |
| Jokke_ | +1 for 5 days | 21:45 |
| ttx | did you have ops in your devs sessions ? Did you make time to attend ops sessions ? | 21:46 |
| docaedo | I thought the venue was really beautiful, but did not like how spread out it was, and felt like I hardly ran into anyone (vs. Vancouver hallways where social aspect was awesome) | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | ttx: yes, I wasn't able to attend some of the ops and product-wg sessions I wanted to participate in | 21:46 |
| bknudson | we did get a couple of ops in the keystone sessoins | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | docaedo : ++ | 21:46 |
| fungi | doing the feedback session during lunch likely resulted in poor participation (i wasn't there, at least!) | 21:46 |
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| ttx | yeah that was a bad idea | 21:46 |
| notmyname | we had a specific ops feedback session for swift. it was lower attended than previous summits, but we got some good feedback. we had a few ops at some other sessions | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | fungi : yeah, I didn't know about that, I'm not sure where it was announced but I obviously missed it | 21:46 |
| stevebaker | I liked the one day of dedicated cross-project tracks | 21:46 |
| bknudson | fungi: maybe if lunch was pizzas I'd show up. | 21:46 |
| thingee | I was stretched way too thin and had to cancel attending most of the ops sessions. | 21:47 |
| notmyname | docaedo: +1000 | 21:47 |
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| Jokke_ | also Paris vs. Vancouver vs. Tokyo; Vancounver won clearly by having everything pretty well together ... Paris was badly spread out and I felt and heard many to complain that Tokyo was even more spread out | 21:47 |
| docaedo | I hate to knock it, because putting on a summit requires an absurd level of effort and you all do such a fantastic job :) But please not again like that | 21:47 |
| thingee | stevebaker: +1 | 21:47 |
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| docaedo | stevebaker: +1 | 21:47 |
| ttx | was any room crowded ? I heard that this time around Neutron didn't fill their room | 21:48 |
| fungi | dhellmann: i don't recall it being announced anywhere, and it was up to people noticing it on the schedule or word of mouth | 21:48 |
| stevebaker | if we went to 5 days, maybe a dedicated ops day, a dedicated x-project day, then 3 days of project-specific summits | 21:48 |
| Piet | +1 | 21:48 |
| thingee | I still felt like cross project sessions weren't well attended | 21:48 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ah | 21:48 |
| edleafe | stevebaker: +1 to xproj day | 21:48 |
| persia | Vancouver was in two buildings: perhaps some of us did not get to the other building as much, but let us not forget that when praising the hallway. | 21:48 |
| docaedo | room size worked well, and all the sessions I was in seemed effective | 21:48 |
| ttx | Froday morning some rooms were pretty busy but that's beacsue people stayed around and came to leech wifi | 21:48 |
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| smcginnis | ttx: Some of the Cinder ones got a little crowded the last day, but I still think the room should have been more than enough. | 21:48 |
| ttx | Friday* | 21:48 |
| dhellmann | ttx: our work session on friday was a bit awkward until we actually split up, but otherwise the rooms were sized well | 21:48 |
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| bknudson | ttx: there was a security session that a couple people had to stand | 21:48 |
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| notmyname | we had pretty crowded working session rooms for swift | 21:49 |
| fungi | yeah, i couldn't tell how many of the infra/ironic and infra/qa/relmgmt sprinters were there as active participants and which were there to find a chair | 21:49 |
| ttx | We had the same Friday effect than in Paris. People staying for the weekend and speding their Friday where light was still on | 21:49 |
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| bknudson | we had a few chairs break on us :( | 21:49 |
| fungi | but the workrooms for infra were pretty focused (far better than vancouver) even with similar or larger numbers of attendees | 21:50 |
| stevebaker | bknudson: stop throwing them | 21:50 |
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| persia | fungi: there were plenty of chairs elsewhere: folk in those rooms generally wanted to meetup on those broad topics. | 21:50 |
| ttx | ok, that's good feedback. If you have more (or secret feedback) don't hesitate to send me an email | 21:50 |
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| fungi | persia: great! that was my hope | 21:50 |
| notmyname | ttx: thanks for getting screens for the working rooms! | 21:51 |
| bknudson | maybe the size only worked because ops didn't walk over. | 21:51 |
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| fungi | it's hard to tell since a lot of people don't speak up, and with ptl duties it was hard for me to float and figure out everything people were collaborating on | 21:51 |
| docaedo | ttx: tables were too big/heavy, I tried to flip one in rage and only strained my back :/ | 21:51 |
| ttx | screens in working rooms... .useful ? not useful ? | 21:51 |
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| persia | Useful | 21:51 |
| notmyname | screens were useful | 21:51 |
| fungi | we used them in most (all?) of our infra work sessions | 21:51 |
| bknudson | we didn't use the screens, we used the whiteboards | 21:51 |
| angdraug | not having DP connectors was a problem for us thinkpad users | 21:52 |
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| fungi | i also think the community messaging around work sessions and the sprint day must have penetrated better than last time | 21:52 |
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| smcginnis | angdraug: Agree. Most new laptops only have dp. | 21:52 |
| lifeless | one bit of feedback | 21:52 |
| lifeless | also raied in the tc meeting | 21:52 |
| Piet | Did anyone mention the inability to fit everyone into the same room for the keynotes? | 21:52 |
| lifeless | some folk felt they couldn't contribute | 21:52 |
| lifeless | flaper87 is going to coordinate digging into that | 21:53 |
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| thingee | Piet: there were additional rooms designated for keynote attendees | 21:53 |
| angdraug | some people actually preferred the overflow rooms for keynotes since they were less noisy | 21:53 |
| notmyname | IMO for swift I don't think "hiding" the work room topics does anything to prevent or encourage attendance. it only makes it slightly more difficult to find the right place to be when you want to "do swift" | 21:53 |
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| persia | lifeless: do we know why? Unlike other summits, nobody seemed to be checking ATC status, etc. | 21:53 |
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| Piet | thingee: Impacted the feeling of community having people in different rooms | 21:53 |
| lifeless | persia: no; see the tc meeting logs for more detail | 21:54 |
| dhellmann | persia : it was their impression either from in the room or from the organization of the event; I'm asking for more detail now that we're all home | 21:54 |
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| fungi | as in cultural pressure preventing newcomers from speaking up, maybe? | 21:55 |
| dhellmann | right | 21:55 |
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| thingee | Piet: At the beginning we streamed on the big screen to show people in the other room and did a wave to them.. I agree it's a bummer, but I found a lot of things in japan were small and might've just been how all venues would've turned out. | 21:55 |
| persia | dhellman: I am very curious, as I felt non-ATCs were more welcomed to design stuff this time than in a country please years. | 21:55 |
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| dhellmann | persia: good | 21:55 |
| persia | s/country please/couple/ | 21:55 |
| lifeless | or not enough reaching-out-to-folk from the coordinator | 21:56 |
| lifeless | there are lots of possible things | 21:56 |
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| angdraug | fungi: ++ | 21:56 |
| angdraug | in some meetings, it took a lot of courage to squeeze a word in edgewise | 21:57 |
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| persia | There are large venues in Japan, but they are ugly and industrial. | 21:57 |
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| angdraug | not sure about leadership training, but meeting facilitation training could be of use | 21:57 |
| dhellmann | angdraug: ++ | 21:57 |
| thingee | 3 minute warning | 21:57 |
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| fungi | i'm not really sure how to solve "people are afraid to speak up" but maybe that's something we don't underscore enough in the 101 session? | 21:58 |
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| thingee | I used to be shy about talking... took some time to get over it | 21:58 |
| fungi | i also know at least a few newcomers who i asked about the 101 session and none of them attended | 21:58 |
| dhellmann | fungi: someone did propose having moderators be more explicit about asking folks for input | 21:58 |
| angdraug | a well structured meeting with pauses goes a long way to encourage people to speak up | 21:58 |
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| angdraug | once again I'd like to commend the way EmilienM ran his sessions | 21:59 |
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| edleafe | angdraug: most of the nova sessions had too many people speaking instead of pauses | 21:59 |
| Piet | thingee: Me too, it took forever to feel comfortable w IRC | 21:59 |
| fungi | i will definitely make a point of attending one of EmilienM's sessions next time | 21:59 |
| bknudson | did others find that 40 mins wasn't enough? | 21:59 |
| lifeless | angdraug: those things are perhaps related :) | 21:59 |
| angdraug | edleafe: good point, indicates nova needed more narrowly focused sessions ) | 22:00 |
| fungi | no amount of time is ever enough, in my experience | 22:00 |
| notmyname | we did something new this time with the schedule | 22:00 |
| thingee | ok time is up... | 22:00 |
| notmyname | groupd topics into session blocks | 22:00 |
| bknudson | just like 60 mins isn't enough for this meeting, I guess. | 22:00 |
| edleafe | fungi: true | 22:00 |
| notmyname | :-) | 22:00 |
| notmyname | worked well for us | 22:00 |
| Jokke_ | bknudson: always, but at least flaper87 made great call and allocated more than 1 slot for the topics where that was expected | 22:00 |
| thingee | lets continue feedback in #openstack-dev? | 22:00 |
| edleafe | bknudson: hah! | 22:00 |
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| dhellmann | notmyname: good idea | 22:00 |
| thingee | #endmeeting | 22:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 3 22:00:47 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-11-03-21.01.html | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-11-03-21.01.txt | 22:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-11-03-21.01.log.html | 22:00 |
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