Tuesday, 2015-11-03

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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov  3 08:00:43 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:00
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lennyb_anteaya: Hi08:01
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anteayahey lennyb_08:01
anteayahow are you today?08:01
lennyb_hard to say yet, it's still morning08:02
lennyb_how are you?08:02
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anteayagood thanks08:02
anteayajet lag made getting up at 3am easy today08:02
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anteayadid you make any progress updating your wikipage?08:02
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lennyb_anteaya: yes, I've updated it after our meeting.08:03
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lennyb_#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ThirdPartySystems/Mellanox_CI08:03
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anteayathank you08:04
anteayayou understood the salient point, communicating the reuse of the node08:05
lennyb_how was Tokia city? I've never been to Japan08:05
anteayathank you08:05
anteayawell for me it was overwhelming08:05
anteayabut I doubt most people had a similar experience to mine08:05
anteayaand I don't eat fish08:05
lennyb_anteaya: what do you mean by 'salient point' ?08:05
anteayathe important part of our conversation last meeting08:05
anteayathe fact the node is being reused08:06
anteayaso thank you08:06
lennyb_anteaya: I am not sure now08:06
anteayawhat part are you not sure about?08:06
anteayaI was offering you a compliment08:06
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lennyb_I guess I missed it :).08:07
anteayano worries08:07
anteayaso japanese food has a lot of fish in it08:07
anteayaand fish broth08:07
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anteayaso I ate Indian food all week08:08
anteayabut it is really really lovely08:08
lennyb_:) it's in the sea, they have to eat sea food :)08:08
anteayavery calm08:08
anteayamakes perfect sense08:08
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anteayatokyo has one of the lowest crime rates in the world I am told08:09
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anteayaI felt totally safe walking around by myself anywhere in the city08:09
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anteayait was marvelous08:09
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lennyb_I am sorry I've missed this summit.08:09
anteayame too08:09
anteayait would have been nice to see you08:09
anteayado you think you might be able to make it to Austin in the spring?08:10
lennyb_you too....maybe next summit.08:10
anteayasorry, Austin in April08:10
anteayahopefully you can come to Texas08:10
lennyb_btw, I have nothing, except Tokio that I've missed, to discuss  today, and I guess it's a late night at your place08:11
anteayait is okay I am up08:12
anteayahad to have something to eat to satisfy the jet lag08:12
anteayabeen awake for about 2 hours before the meeting08:12
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* lennyb_ looking for link08:14
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lennyb_#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/glance/+bug/148458808:15
openstackLaunchpad bug 1484588 in Glance "glance startup gives ERROR: Could not bind to after trying for 30 seconds on stable-kilo after attempting service restart" [Undecided,Confirmed]08:15
anteayalennyb_: have you hit this bug?08:16
lennyb_anteaya: .... recalled that there was somthing I wanted to ask. There is a glance issue that we see quite often, but cant reproduce it08:16
anteayawhat is happening when you see it?08:17
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lennyb_stack fails, but if I run this command manually, it passes.08:17
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lennyb_looks like glance needs more time for starting08:18
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anteayaflaper87: are you awake yet?08:19
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anteayaflaper87: lennyb_ is seeing a glance bug, I was wondering if perhaps you might be awake and be able to share some input08:19
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lennyb_it's might be related to the fact that we are reusing the node, so probably some of the processes sometimes not clearly exit even after ./clean.sh08:20
anteayathat is possilble yes08:21
lennyb_#paste http://paste.openstack.org/show/477833/08:22
anteayaI can't seem to access those logs08:22
lennyb_and something similar that started to happen few days ago and most likely related to this as well. I had no time to debug it yet08:23
anteayathey aren't loading for me08:23
anteayathe paste appears to be giving me an error that is different than the glance error08:23
lennyb_sorry, wrong jenkins08:24
anteayaah okay now I can see those logs08:24
anteayawhat should I be looking for in the logs?08:24
lennyb_error in the end of file08:25
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anteayaCould not determine a suitable URL for the plugin08:25
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anteayathat one?08:25
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* lennyb_ looking for glance log08:26
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anteayaokay so are you saying the Could not determine a suitable URL for the plugin error is related to the glance error?08:26
anteayaor are they two seperate errors?08:26
lennyb_anteaya: sorry. they are 2 separate errors.08:27
lennyb_glance issue08:27
anteayaah okay08:27
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lennyb_#paste http://paste.openstack.org/show/477834/08:28
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anteayayou say you see this error but can't reproduce it08:29
anteayathe glance error08:29
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lennyb_yes, it's not reproducible easily, but it happen quite a lot. I have some time now, so I will try to debug/reproduce it08:30
anteayaokay but it happens when you reinstall devstack?08:30
anteayado you remove devstack when you finish and reclone it?08:31
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lennyb_yes, but not always. yes I run ./clean.sh; sudo rm -rf /opt/stack; and even kill all python procs after it08:31
anteayadevstack was never meant to be brought up and down, it was meant to be used once and destroyed08:32
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anteayaactually not being able to restart devstack is a feature since it prevents folks from using devstack in deployment08:32
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anteayacan you remove devstack at the end of every test run and reclone it?08:33
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lennyb_yes, I am removing and reclone it, by the way from what I saw, reclone only removes *.pyo, *.pyc files08:33
anteayatell me again why you need to reuse the node08:34
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anteayarather than create a new node for each test08:35
lennyb_a HW configuration and OS installation is something that takes  time and efford08:35
anteayaokay how much time?08:36
lennyb_I guess with a proper scripts it will take 30min08:36
anteayathat doesn't seem like too much time to me08:37
anteayais there some other part I don't understand?08:37
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lennyb_our tests take from 30-50mins, and we are triggered by neutron, nova, tempest, cinder and internal developments, so adding additional 30mins... I need to make some calculations again08:40
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anteayawell I appreciate you talking to me about this08:40
anteayabut you are using devstack in a way it was never designed to be used in08:40
anteayaso that may be the source of the issue08:41
anteayaI want to help you08:41
anteayato me using devstack the way it was meant to be used seems like the best direction08:41
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lennyb_thanks, btw, I am hitting more bugs this way :)08:41
anteayafixing your own bugs is wonderful08:42
anteayahitting devstack bugs that may not be fixed because devstack isnt' meant to be used like this seems like a waste of your time08:42
lennyb_actually I was talking about glance:). ok I will try to debug this issue and update you if/when I will find smthing08:42
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anteayaand yes the glance bug might be due to how you are reusing devstack08:43
anteayaand if so, it may not be fixed08:43
lennyb_i see08:43
anteayajust wanted to share that with you as a possiblity08:43
anteayaI don't know, but before you but a lot of time into it08:44
anteayawhen folks find bugs restarting devstack we tell them not to08:44
anteayabut to use a fresh devstack08:44
flaper87anteaya: here now, reading the backlog.08:45
lennyb_ok, but as I said I am not restarting devstack. I clean and reinstall it each time. But I see your point. Thanks you.08:45
anteayaflaper87: thank you08:45
lennyb_anteaya: irc question, if I may, what tools are you using to be notified when you are offline or not not here?08:46
anteayaah I use weechat in a vm08:47
anteayaand ssh into it, so weechat is connected regardless of whether my laptop is powered on or off08:47
lennyb_thanks, I will check it08:47
anteayaand when I am offline I recieve no notifications08:47
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anteayaand when I am online and someone uses my nick the channel name and buffer number are highlighted08:48
anteayasome people use their phone to recieve notifications from irc, I don't do that08:48
lennyb_phone seems like a nice idea, I will check it as well08:48
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anteayasure it depends on how you like to interact08:49
anteayawhen I am offline I need my private time08:49
bkeroI can't count the amount of times I have done that, then had to turn it off again in a few days. :)08:49
anteayabkero: turn what off, the phone notifications?08:49
lennyb_I do want to know when someone uses my name, regardless if I am on/off line or in front of the channel08:50
bkeroanteaya: I get too many pings :)08:50
anteayalennyb_: then that is an option open to you08:50
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anteayabkero: it is what happens when you are popular08:50
bkeroIt was doing about 200+ notifications per day08:50
bkeroand I could definitely tell when Google's cloud messaging would have a delay (often).08:51
anteayabkero: wow, do you fix bugs or something08:51
bkeroanteaya: Haha, don't ask me to fix your bugs. :P08:51
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lennyb_bkero: any android app recommendations ?08:52
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anteayaflaper87: any feedback from backscroll?08:52
lennyb_bkero: I promise not to ping you often :)08:52
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flaper87anteaya: not yet, sorry! But I will provide it :) lennyb_ feel free to ping me for more feedback08:53
flaper87I see Stuart has commented on the bug already08:53
flaper87I'll read in more detail08:53
anteayaflaper87: well do you feel it is a glance bug?08:53
bkerolennyb_: NotifyMyAndroid08:54
bkeroThere are plugins to use it from weechat, irssi, and likely znc.08:54
flaper87anteaya: I don't think it is08:54
anteayaflaper87: okay that helps, thank you08:54
flaper87np, I'll dig more into this08:54
anteayalennyb_: so check back on that bug report and with flaper8708:54
anteayaflaper87: thank you08:54
lennyb_flaper87,anteaya,breko: thanks08:55
anteayalennyb_: thanks for mentioning what you are experiencing08:55
anteayawe have 5 more mintues left08:55
anteayaanything more to say here?08:56
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anteayaokay I will wrap up08:57
anteayathanks all for your kind attendance and participation08:57
anteayasee you next week08:57
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"08:57
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov  3 08:57:24 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:57
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-11-03-08.00.html08:57
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-11-03-08.00.txt08:57
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-11-03-08.00.log.html08:57
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lennyb_lennyb: thanks09:53
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alex_xu#startmeeting nova api12:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov  3 12:00:21 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is alex_xu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.12:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.12:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova_api'12:00
alex_xuhi, who is here today?12:00
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: hi12:01
alex_xunot sure people get back to work12:01
johnthetubaguyyeah, its quite sleepy on IRC at the moment12:01
alex_xujichen: hi12:01
jichenalex_xu: hi, seems no people working :)12:02
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alex_xujichen: yea, I'm thinking maybe we should cancel meeting this week12:02
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johnthetubaguywell, we can try keep it short, and kick things off12:03
johnthetubaguywondering if there are any blueprints I forgot to approve that folks said they were going to create in our last meeting?12:03
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alex_xujohnthetubaguy: i guess most of thing is ok12:04
alex_xuthere is action from last meeting, gmann_ create bp for microversion top bottom and changed testing12:04
alex_xubut I didn't saw that bp yet12:04
alex_xuprobably check with gmann next time12:04
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alex_xujohnthetubaguy: hi, for api concept doc and api reference doc, the only way to get people involve is file low hanging fruits?12:05
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johnthetubaguyI think we can put things into the etherpad, linking to a blueprint12:05
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johnthetubaguycreating lots of little bugs seems like a big pain12:06
johnthetubaguyan ML post to advertise who we are tracking things, and a general call to action seems like a good plan12:06
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jichenalex_xu: is this something related to bp complete-todo-in-api-concept-doc ?12:06
johnthetubaguythats the one, and there are some API reference doc bugs too, I think12:07
jichenok, I am working on some of them ,will track the etherpad12:07
alex_xujichen: yea12:07
alex_xujichen: thanks :)12:07
jichenalex_xu: :)12:07
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: you mean the little bugs for api reference? the api concept already have bp12:09
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johnthetubaguyalex_xu: yeah12:10
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: and we still want to maintain the wadl api reference, right?12:10
johnthetubaguyalex_xu: for now, I think we have to12:10
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johnthetubaguywhile we get the swagger sorted12:10
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alex_xujohnthetubaguy: ok12:10
johnthetubaguynow the nice bit, is I think we can just cut and paste all the details from the reference into the swagger based doc12:11
johnthetubaguyat least I think thats what the doc folks were wanting us to do, as a starting point12:11
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alex_xuimprove the doc and implement swagger at sametime12:11
johnthetubaguycool, so process wise, alex_xu I will put you down as the contact for the priority?12:11
johnthetubaguyalex_xu: +112:11
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: yea, no problem12:11
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johnthetubaguycool, I will add in sdague too, mostly of the service catalog bits12:12
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alex_xucool, I think this week I can just work on prepare the track of api doc stuff. and adverties it12:13
johnthetubaguyso this meeting time is super late for many of the folks here, I am wondering if we want to try an alternating meeting?12:13
johnthetubaguyalex_xu: sounds like a really good goal, I like that12:13
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alex_xujohnthetubaguy: super early you mean?12:13
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alex_xujohnthetubaguy: only late for Asia12:14
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johnthetubaguytrue, its great for me, its lunchtime, but thinking we could try one thats better for you folks in Asia12:14
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jichenit's around 6-7 am in US12:14
alex_xuyea, I'm afraid if more early, sdague can't join anymore  :)12:15
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johnthetubaguyI guess your morning is too late of east coast, so maybe this is the best we can do12:15
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johnthetubaguyanyways, just keen to make sure folks don't need to attend meetings at crazy times, if we can easily avoid it12:16
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alex_xuyea, let me check the time later, to see if there is better one. if I found one I will propose it12:16
johnthetubaguymaybe we are done for today then?12:17
* edleafe yawns and starts reading the scrollback12:17
alex_xuyea, no more from me12:17
* alex_xu waves to edleafe12:18
johnthetubaguyI don't think there was anything major from the design summit really, that was more telling folks what we are up to in the end12:18
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alex_xubut looks like we still have lot of thing to do this release12:18
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alex_xuwe will talk all of those next meeting12:19
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johnthetubaguy+1 :)12:19
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johnthetubaguyreally excited about fixing the docs, will make a big impact for our users12:19
johnthetubaguyand auto-generating should really help us do it more efficiently :)12:20
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: yea, that will end the pain from api doc12:20
alex_xuif no more question, let's end the meeting early12:20
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alex_xuthanks all!12:21
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edleafebut I just got here! :)12:21
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"12:21
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov  3 12:21:33 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)12:21
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-11-03-12.00.html12:21
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-11-03-12.00.txt12:21
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-11-03-12.00.log.html12:21
alex_xuedleafe: :)12:21
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Qiming#startmeeting senlin12:59
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov  3 12:59:52 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.12:59
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.12:59
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"12:59
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'12:59
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Qiming#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda13:00
Qimingplease check the meeting agenda and see if you have things to add13:00
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Qimingthe only thing I have in mind is about mitaka plan13:01
Qiminglet's start with it13:01
Qiming#topic Mitaka work items13:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Mitaka work items (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:01
Qimingso we have several places that document our previous work items/plan13:02
Qimingyanyanhu has helped revise the TODO.rst file13:02
yanyanhuyes, we now have etherpad, TODO.rst and also blueprint I think13:03
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Qimingwe may need to consolidate backlogs into the TODO.rst file13:03
Qimingor at most we can maintain a single etherpad page for collaborative editing13:04
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yanyanhuagree with this13:04
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Qiminglet's do some editings, :)13:05
HAIWEIjust saw the Mitaka tasks, about placement policy, is Multi-region different from multi-cloud?13:05
QimingI'm moving liberty items to the mitaka items page13:05
yanyanhuthey should be different13:05
HAIWEIi thought they were the same13:06
Qimingmulti-cloud may have more options than multi-region, HAIWEI13:07
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Qimingliberty items cleaned, :)13:07
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yanyanhuQiming, do we need to list all possible workitems in etherpad?13:09
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Qiminglet's move our meetup items into the mitaka items, and then we compare the list with the TODO.rst revision13:09
yanyanhuI guess maybe we can just record those items with lower priority in TODO?13:09
HAIWEIOr specify the work items to Mitaka-1?13:10
Qimingwe cannot edit the TODO.rst file directly13:10
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elynnDo we need a specs folder for BP design?13:10
HAIWEImaybe we should13:10
QimingHAIWEI, we need a list of all work items, then we prioritize them13:11
Qimingthen we set our goal for mitaka-113:11
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Qimingelynn, we have been doing things a little bit different from other openstack projects13:12
Qimingwe have two files maintained in the code base: TODO.rst file for workitems that doesn't require a blueprint or spec13:12
QimingFEATURES.rst for things (most of which are about mid-term/long-term goals) we will do in future, and they all needs some detailed design before being worked on13:13
yanyanhuor maybe each time we pick up a work item from TODO.rst, we file a blueprint/spec for it?13:13
yanyanhuand when the bp/spec is completed, we remove the item from TODO list13:14
Qimingitems in TODO.rst are not the place for bug reports13:14
Qimingplease use launchpad for bug reports, we track bugs there13:14
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HAIWEIyes, I think we should be strict for the bug fix, if the patch is fixing a bug, we should file the bug in launchpad first13:15
Qimingis this clear for everyone?13:15
yanyanhuHAIWEI, agree13:15
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HAIWEII am clear about it13:15
Qimingokay, so we will have several things to maintain, mostly follow the community practices13:16
Qimingspeaking of specs, we may need it soon13:16
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Qimingif it is about a new feature, or a huge refactor, we need a plan/discussion before working on it13:17
Qimingthat's what specs are used for13:17
Qimingmy etherpad connection is very unstable at the moment13:18
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Qimingseems having two etherpad pages open is not a good idea13:19
Qiminglet's focus on the mitaka meetup page13:20
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Qimingdelete items that are already merged into the TODO.rst file13:21
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Qimingthen we have a clear picture of where we are heading, :)13:21
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yanyanhuhi, Qiming, or maybe we keep this page for some people we want to check the result of our discussion in Tokyo meetup?13:21
QimingAPI consistency has been merged, right?13:21
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yanyanhusince somebody may not got the chance to join the discussion13:22
yanyanhuQiming, yes13:22
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elynnThat's me13:22
Qimingyanyanhu, don't think so, we'd better maintain information in the same place13:22
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Qimingscatter things everywhere will only cause confusion13:22
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Qimingneed check existing API WG guidelines and find the gaps13:23
Qimingthis is not merged, right?13:23
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yanyanhuyes, I think so13:23
QimingAPI versioning is not merged, but it is of low priority, let's focus on v1 at present13:23
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Qimingyanyanhu, for the items mentioned, I'm leaving them there, pls help merge them to TODO.rst and FEATURE.rst respectively, offline13:24
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Qimingelynn, lixinhui ... you were not at the meetup13:26
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Qimingplease speak up if you have questions, :)13:26
elynnSo finally, which etherpad do we maintain?13:26
Qimingon etherpad, we only maintain this single page, for weekly meetings13:27
elynnok, and just saw that webhook will be rename to receiver?13:27
Qimingright, that was discussed during meetup13:28
Qimingwebhook is a special type of receiver13:28
Qimingwe want the senlin API as stable as possible, after all, it is a contract with senlin service users13:29
Qimingother types of receivers may include message queues etc13:29
elynnI see.13:29
Qimingif we have webhook only api, we will have a lot of difficulty to deprecate it13:30
Qimingthe lessons we learnt ... don't even try to deprecate anything, :)13:30
elynnThat's right, backward compatible is not an easy thing.13:31
Qimingelynn, heat resource type support is clear right?13:31
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Qimingit should be okay to say that we only support one type of receivers13:31
elynnYes, after the senlinclient patch is merged, I can start to work on senlin plugin in heat.13:31
Qimingcluster, node, profile ... these resources are merged into sdk now13:32
Qimingso no blocker to support them in heat, except for the senlinclient refactor13:32
Qimingyanyanhu has helped tested the new interface, it seems work well13:33
elynnBut we still need get_file support for senlinclient and heatclient.13:33
yanyanhuyes, I think it has been ready13:33
Qimingwe need to bump client version to 0.1.5 soon, so your heat resource type work and the senlin-dashboard can move on13:33
elynnyes, needs a new version after refactor.13:34
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elynnSpeaking of openstacksdk, I notice that workitem 10. Dependency on openstack-sdk (how about using openstack-client)13:35
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Qiminghope the invocations would be smooth afterwards13:35
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Qimingelynn, I spent sometime on reading osc code13:35
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Qimingit won't serve our use case13:35
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Qimingwe need to stick to sdk13:36
Qimingosc is only about command line13:36
elynnOk, so this is not an workitem yet. got it.13:36
Qimingwe talked to Brian in Tokyo, the code review will catch up13:36
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Qimingyanyanhu, have we documented TOSCA related items?13:38
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yanyanhunot yet, Qiming13:38
Qimingseems to me we need a couple of specs before getting hands on them13:38
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Qimingokay, need to work with Matt on it13:39
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yanyanhuyes, I think we need some specs to clarify more detail about this job13:39
Qimingwe do no convergence, but we need to manage objects we created on behalf of users, that was the conclusion, right?13:40
yanyanhuthat's right since we are cluster management service13:41
Qimingpolicy data passing thing, merged?13:41
yanyanhunot just cluster deployment service13:41
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yanyanhulet me check13:41
yanyanhuhi, Qiming, not yet13:42
Qimingok, leaving it there13:42
yanyanhusince I was not quite sure how to describe the workitem accurately13:42
yanyanhuwill think through about it13:42
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Qimingjust try your best, we are a team, we can help polish it once there is a draft13:42
yanyanhuok :)13:43
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Qimingthe only big mistake we should avoid is we forget what we have discussed, :)13:43
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Qiminghaving all these captured into the TODO.rst file and/or the FEATURE.rst file will help13:43
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Qiminganything we neeed to delete from the meetup page?13:44
yanyanhu  - Scavenger of objects (should be configurable.)13:45
yanyanhu   - object status consitency (clearly document )13:45
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Qimingthose two already merged?13:45
yanyanhuhi, Qiming, I think we can also remove these two items which are listed under Housekeeping catalog13:45
yanyanhuyes, they were also added in today's patch13:45
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Qimingokay, after the meeting, please help consolidate the rest into the two rst files13:47
Qimingtime to move on, :)13:47
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Qimingdon't think we'll have time to work on this today: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-mitaka-workitems13:47
Qimingthis will be our focus next meeting,13:48
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HAIWEIdiscuss about it?13:48
yanyanhuafter we update TODO.rst, we can sync them13:48
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Qimingwe review your patch and dump things here13:48
Qimingthe current list for mitaka is too long13:49
Qimingwe won't have a chance to complete all of them13:49
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yanyanhualso think so13:50
Qimingneed to prioritize things, set a clear goal for m-113:50
HAIWEIwhen is the end of m-113:50
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yanyanhuby the end of this year?13:50
Qimingwe have only one month for m-113:51
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HAIWEIonly a month away13:51
yanyanhu... short period13:51
Qimingyup, got to be realistic13:51
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Qimingso the top priority in my view is about stability and heat resource type13:52
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Qimingall features can be added later on13:52
Qimingthey can be driven by requests13:52
Qiminglet's continue this next week13:54
Qiming#topic open discussions13:54
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:54
Qimingsee if any thing guys want to bring up?13:54
yanyanhunice, will clean all items left in meetup page tomorrow and wait for you guys comments13:54
yanyanhunope from me13:54
Qimingyou already got some from me, :)13:54
yanyanhuwill check it :)13:55
HAIWEIit seems we got some new members13:55
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HAIWEIhope more and more people will join13:55
Qimingyes, that is getting things nicer :)13:55
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HAIWEIthat's all from me13:56
yanyanhuHAIWEI, I noticed yuanying san is also in the irc channel :)13:56
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HAIWEIyes, but I think he will not contribute :)13:56
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HAIWEIhe mainly focuses on magnum13:56
Qimingbuy hime some sake13:56
yanyanhunp, just stand there to support us :)13:56
QimingHAIWEI, we need to continue client test cases13:57
HAIWEIanyway, we want to use senlin for our local team13:57
Qimingat least for the shell module13:57
HAIWEIok, Qiming13:57
elynnI have some concern about the patch for senlinclient.13:58
elynnabout profile_create13:58
Qimingthe client module will change, when we have better support from sdk13:58
elynnI will comment in that patch.13:58
HAIWEIyou start a patch, and we cooperate with the job, Qiming13:58
Qimingokay, thanks, elynn13:58
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QimingHAIWEI, I think I have already done that13:59
Qimingmaybe need more, ;)13:59
Qiminglet's release this channel, time's up13:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov  3 13:59:44 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-11-03-12.59.html13:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-11-03-12.59.txt13:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-11-03-12.59.log.html13:59
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kevinbentonno neutron meeting today14:01
crc32I was told this was a neutron on demand meeting14:01
kevinbentoncrc32: oh, i thought this week was cancelled. let me look through email14:02
ajocrc32, what do you demand? :D14:02
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ajoIt was cancelled I think14:02
crc32I'm new here actually. Ok. Canceleld it is14:03
kevinbentoncrc32: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-October/078051.html14:03
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davidshaMeetings resume next week is it?14:03
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davidshaAll meetings are canceled this week is it? I heard that the week after the summit usually nothing happens while things are being wrapped up.14:04
kevinbentondavidsha: not sure about all but it is pretty common to have this week be a cool-down recovery from the summit :)14:05
persiaOr, no meetings happen because everyone is exhausted, and half of us are jetlagged.14:05
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persia(plus, lots of people often get ill)14:05
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davidsha_kevinbenton: Cool, thanks!14:06
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* gongysh_ test14:57
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cbitsis there a NeutronDrivers meeting today?15:06
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cbitsGuess not15:14
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domc1Is the Tokyo summit still going on?  Meetings were cancelled last week15:15
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carl_baldwincbits: I guess it was implicitly cancelled along with the regular Neutron meeting.15:15
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dstanekping ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, claudiub, rderose, samleon18:02
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lbragstaddstanek  o/18:02
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ayoungI'm here but in a nother meeting, too.  Ping me explicitly if  you need my input.  Otherwise, I'll just view from time to time18:03
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dstanekour recent time change had me all messed up18:03
dstanek#startmeeting Keystone18:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov  3 18:03:53 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dstanek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:03
dstanekdolphm: yt?18:04
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lbragstadthingee doesn't appear to be here either18:05
dstanekit looks like that was our only meeting agenda item18:05
lbragstadi can see if he is in the office18:05
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dstanekanyone have anything else that needs to be discussed?18:05
bknudsonI can't think of anything.18:06
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htrutadstanek: seems like henrynash is not around, but his email about reseller hasn't been replied yet18:07
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dstanekhtruta: who does he need a reply from?18:07
htrutadstanek: good question18:07
topollbragstad you need t explain that ... to me :-)18:07
dolphmdamn time change18:07
lbragstadok, dolphm  is on his way18:07
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dstanek#topic Assert standard deprecation18:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Assert standard deprecation (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:08
dstanek#link http://governance.openstack.org/reference/tags/assert_follows-standard-deprecation.html18:08
dstanekdolphm:  all you!18:08
dolphmI put this on the agenda for everyone who couldn't attend the cross project session at the summit on deprecation policies18:08
topol++ Thanks18:08
dolphmthere was a lot of discussion about how to approach deprecating APIs, how to approach removing them, and how to handle all of this in the context of immature and mature projects18:09
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dolphmkeystone is very much in the "mature" camp, so we have to be super conservative18:09
topoldolphm +++ Definitely18:10
dolphmand i'm happy to report that i think we've demonstrated pretty good leadership within the broader community on this already, but we're not one of the projects that has made the assertion to follow this document18:11
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dstanekdolphm: ++ nice18:11
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dolphmso, i'm hoping everyone will take a few minutes today to read through this, and if we're all on the same page, we can voluntold stevemar to add keystone as one of these projects18:11
gyeewhat's the verdict on v2.0?18:12
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lbragstadwe had action items from the summit for v2.018:12
bknudsonv2 has been essentially deprecated "Code will be frozen and only receive minimal maintenance" for a few releases now18:12
dstanek#action stevemar to add Keystone to the list of project that follow the standard deprecation process18:13
gyeebut we can't mark it as deprecated yet18:13
* dstanek likes to assign tasks to those that are not here :-)18:13
bknudsonwe don't meet the criteria18:13
bknudson"uses an automated test to verify that configuration files are forward-compatible from release to release "18:14
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lbragstadintroducing v3 only jobs to projects, make the v3 job voting, moving the last few bits that don't work on v318:14
dstanekdolphm: i thought we had to essentially keep v2 around forever18:14
bknudsonwe can deprecate it even if we never remove it18:14
dstanekbknudson: sounds like there are addition work items to weed out of there18:14
lbragstadmake v2.0 middleware that translates to and from v318:15
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gyeewe are keeping the public facing v2.0 APIs and deprecate the rest, if I remember correctly18:15
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gyeethat still the plan?18:16
bknudsonare we going to allow adding new features to the v2.0 APIs?18:16
lbragstadwe narrowed it down to about four calls that we will never be able to remove18:16
lbragstadetherpad from the summit #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-mitaka-summit-deprecations18:16
dstanekbknudson: i would love to say no18:16
bknudsonwe could add support for domains to v2 auth18:16
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dolphmgyee: that's my idea for a long term plan, yes18:17
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dolphmbknudson: the reason why we didn't do that is to not break v2 validation responses that would otherwise be domain-unaware and thus result in namespace conflicts18:17
dolphmbknudson: so, no, we can't18:17
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gyeedolphm, that's good, so as long as the doc didn't say we have to deprecate the entire set18:18
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dolphmgyee: the ideal is that you deprecate nothing, and you're committed to every API forever18:18
bknudsonthe reason to deprecate the v2 api is that we'd like to remove it so that we don't have to support the code18:19
dolphmas long as you have users, you support the API, end of story. i think keystone can eventually get operators off of v2.0 administrator crud, but it'll be a much longer process to get users off v2 auth, if ever18:19
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dolphmbknudson: removal will not happen quickly. certainly not in 2 cycles.18:20
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bknudsonthe code is made more complicated and we'll likely have security bugs due to having to keep it around18:20
dolphmthat's the cost of publishing an API in the first place18:20
topoldolphm, so removal wont happen quickly but hopefully its stable and does not require much maintneance... and no enhancements18:20
dstanekthere is also the discussion of making v2 just use the v3 API under the hood18:21
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topolbknudson how many security bugs normally come in?18:21
dolphmtopol: ++18:21
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bknudsontopol: I don't think we've seen any due to v2 support yet.18:22
dolphmi can't think of any, either18:22
gyeepki? :)18:22
topolgyee never mention that again :-)18:22
bknudsonv2 already has a security problem where the tokens are in the request path18:22
dolphmthe original v2 security bug was "tokens in URLs may be logged"18:22
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dolphmso v3 doesn't put bearer tokens in URLs18:23
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dstanek"security issues can't be fixed due to backward compatibility requirements. see v3 API"18:23
bknudsonso do we wait until everyone is off to deprecate v2 crud or deprecate it to get people to stop using it?18:23
lbragstaddstanek ++18:23
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bknudsonwhat's the point of deprecating?18:24
gyeetopol, my bad, I was shouting a random word :)18:24
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dolphmbknudson: to discourage any remaining use and say that v3 is ready for everyone to use18:24
topolbknudson a nudge as opposed to a push18:24
thingeebknudson: I've heard from operators that when they do upgrades, they look for scary warnings that mention deprecation... so they can make plans for finishing upgrades.18:25
topoldolphm +++18:25
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dolphmi still come across people within the openstack community asking the question "should i use v3 yet?"18:25
bknudsonok, let's deprecate v2 crud18:25
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amakarovdolphm, ++18:25
bknudsonand we can also deprecate v2 public since we want operators to be scared and switch.18:25
dolphmbknudson: disagree18:26
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dolphmbknudson: on the public auth calls18:26
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dolphmbknudson: the v2 token validation API should be deprecated though (but that's on the admin side, not :5000)18:26
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dolphmv2 auth usage is not remotely close to zero yet, not even within openstack/ - we have to achieve that first18:27
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gyeeyeah we can't deprecate v2 auth yet18:28
dstaneksounds like we need a spec to layout the deprecation strategy18:28
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dolphmdstanek: that'd be reasonable in this case18:29
dolphm#action dolphm to document keystone's approach to v2 deprecation in a spec18:29
dstanekfor each logical component v2 crud, v2 auth, etc. just what the strategy will be and maybe some high level timelines18:29
bknudsonif we write down the criteria for deprecating a feature we can use it when doing reviews18:30
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topoldstanek, spec would help18:30
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dstaneki have another topic that came up just now...18:31
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dstanek#topic stop editing the paste.ini?18:31
*** openstack changes topic to "stop editing the paste.ini? (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:31
dstanek#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185464/18:31
dstaneki've seen this ask a couple of times and haven't really heard the general opinion of the group18:32
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dolphmstop editing?18:32
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bknudsonmaybe this means we shouldn't require editing paste.ini to disable admin token18:33
dstanekdolphm: right now you need to change it when you install keystone - that review attempts to start fixing that18:33
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dstanekbknudson: yes18:33
bknudsonI agree that the default for admin token (if not specified) should be that admin token is disabled18:33
gyeedidn't we agree to provide the bootstrapping capability via keystone-manage and remove admin token?18:33
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gyeeso that patch can go away18:33
dstanekwe've taken our setting outs and blocked reviews like the OSProfiler one that wants to add setting to out paste.ini18:33
dstanekgyee: i've heard we want to do that, but i don't know that we've committed to it18:34
bknudsonwe have a cors review now that wants to add cors middleware to paste.ini18:34
ayoungpaste should be how we enable disable  V2, but beyond that, no18:34
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ayoungalthougjh...wanted a way to enable a specific auth mechansim for a pipeline18:34
gyeedstanek, I thought we all agree on that going forward, though I don't remember on who's plate18:35
ayoungyeah, killing admin token should not require editing paste, except for backports18:35
bknudsonit's on my list of things to do to look into keystone-manage but it's low priority18:35
dolphmi forget which session, but we had a short list of "remaining" things that required the admin token to bootstrap, so we could possibly just remove it as a thing altogether18:35
dstanekgyee: maybe that's the problem then.18:35
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dstanekdolphm: oh, nice. i didn't remember seeing a list like that18:36
bknudsonhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/185464/ looks like it's essentially abandoned since no updates for a couple months18:36
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dstanekso maybe this just needs a spec to enumerate the things we still have to fix before removing auth token18:36
gyeetempest I think18:37
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bknudsontempest uses admin token?18:37
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ayoungI'm not in love with the current state of paste but don't have the time to rewrite it ATM.18:37
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gyeebknudson, I thought someone mentioned it at the session, but I'll need to double check18:38
dstanekdolphm: is the bottom of this what you where talking about?18:38
dolphmdstanek: no18:39
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dstanek#action dstanek to sort out the remaining things that depend on auth_token18:40
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dstanekok, switching topics...18:41
dstanek#topic Office Hours18:41
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*** openstack changes topic to "Office Hours (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:41
dolphmdstanek: *admin_token18:41
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dstanekjust wanted to let everyone know that i'll only be available for a bit this Friday to help with bugs and not at all on the 13th due to a vacation18:42
bknudsonI don't think we're getting rid of auth_token any time soon18:42
bknudsonalthough gyee might have a plan for that18:42
dstanekdolphm: doh, thx18:42
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topoldstanek Enjoy your vacation18:42
dstanekdoes anyone have anything to discuss or do y'all want your time back?18:43
bknudsonI'll be here on friday.18:43
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gyeebknudson, dstanek volunteer for the auth_token investigation18:44
dstanekfeel free to add yourselves to the list18:44
dstanek#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-office-hours18:44
dstanekgyee: no, no, no... misspeak! misspeak!18:44
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dstanekwe did really good the last office hours day, but i'm hoping we can still do better18:45
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dstanekonly other topics...going once18:46
topolI second ending the meeting early18:46
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:46
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov  3 18:46:39 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:46
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-11-03-18.03.html18:46
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-11-03-18.03.txt18:46
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-11-03-18.03.log.html18:46
dstanekenjoy your extra 15 minutes!18:46
dolphmdstanek: thanks for running the meeting!18:46
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dstanekdolphm: mah, pleasure18:47
topol+++ great job dstanek. Thanks for not mentioning the steelers18:47
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fungiinfra team: assemble!19:00
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mordredtopol: aren't the panthers doing, like, really well this season?19:00
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topolmordred yes... but Im a steelers fan19:01
fungijeblair: SergeyLukjanov: infra team meeting starting now19:01
fungi(if you're around)19:01
fungi#startmeeting infra19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov  3 19:01:55 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:02
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fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:02
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mordredtopol: ah. maybe it's time to become a panthers fan19:02
fungi#topic Announcements19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
fungi#info crinkle added to infra-puppet-core19:02
jeblaircrinkle: yay!19:03
fungithanks to crinkle for agreeing to help as an infra-puppet-core reviewer!19:03
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pleia2welcome, crinkle!19:03
jesusauruscrinkle: congrats19:03
topolmordred... getting close19:03
pabelanger /me claps19:03
fungiher insightful review work has already been a huge help to us, and i'm pleased that she's willing to take on more responsibility there19:03
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SotKcongrats crinkle19:04
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fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:04
fungithere were none, though we did implicitly have a "meet in tokyo and do infra stuff" action item, which i think we accomplished19:05
mordredI did stuff, so I concur19:05
fungi#topic Specs approval19:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
fungibased on discussions in tokyo with some of the other infrastructure core reviewers, i've drafted an update to our priorities list19:06
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/24133119:06
fungithe tl;dr is that we kept the remaining four priorities which were lingering from liberty, and added four new ones to our plate19:06
fungithose are ansible puppet apply, gerrit 2.11 upgrade, infra-cloud and zuul v319:07
clarkbseveral of which should be able to get finished quickly (puppet apply, gerrit upgrade, openstackci)19:07
jeblairclarkb: ++19:07
fungiright, a lot of the lingering ones and some of the new additions are "easy wins" in terms of being able to wrap them up early in mitaka19:08
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fungiso it's not as daunting at is might look19:08
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anteayacongratulations crinkle19:08
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fungi#info council voting is open on Infra Mitaka Priority Updates until 19:00 UTC Thursday, November 519:09
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fungijust so we can register any objections19:09
fungialso, that meditation room we found in the garden was very nice19:10
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fungihopefully the zen from that bleeds through in our cycle planning ;)19:10
jeblairand meetings of the infra council should really happen in wood paneled rooms with fireplaces19:10
* jeblair hangs wood panels in #openstack-meeting19:10
fungibarefoot on tatami mat floors19:11
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pleia2fungi: that was pretty fun :)19:11
* jhesketh agrees 19:11
fungi#agreed #openstack-meeting will be outfitted with wood paneling and tatami mats19:11
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fungialso that change adds a dummy spec for the gerrit upgrade just so we have something to link in the priorities and to document the review topic19:12
fungiit's probably rife with typos and i don't really care much19:12
fungialso extremely light on detail19:12
fungiwe've discussed it to death in other venues already19:13
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clarkband eve ndone it once19:13
fungi#topic Priority Efforts: maniphest migration (ruagair)19:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: maniphest migration (ruagair) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:13
fungiruagair: i see you added some updates on this... anything critical?19:13
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pleia2thanks to ruagair for taking a lead here19:14
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anteayaI have a question is this called maniphest or phabricator?19:15
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anteayawhen I call it one I am told to call it the other19:15
fungiit's worth noting that the outcome of the task tracker discussion in tokyo is that we will continue working on implementing maniphest (as evidenced by the priorities list)19:15
anteayaso I'm confused19:15
pleia2anteaya: maniphest is a component of phabricator19:15
mordredthe entire thing is called phabricator19:15
fungianteaya: phabricator is a suite of tools19:15
mordredyeah. what pleia2 said19:15
pleia2we're just deploying maniphest for now19:15
anteayaokay thank you maniphest19:15
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jeblair(but i think pholio will soon follow)19:16
fungi#info from Tokyo: task tracker effort will continue on the storyboard to maniphest migration19:16
mordredwell, pholio is also enabled in the current deployment19:16
mordredso - it might be worth just calling it phabricator19:16
anteayatask tracker?19:16
jeblairmordred: what current deployment?19:16
anteayacan it that?19:16
mordredjeblair: the puppet that is driving ruagair's work19:16
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jeblairmordred: ah cool.19:16
mordredjeblair: it includes phabricator configs that disable/enable components and whatnot19:17
jeblairso not following very far behind at all.19:17
fungi#info from Tokyo: the Infra team will try not to get in the way of the new Storyboard dev team, and will be much more flexible about new featureset/design plans there following Maniphest migration for OpenStack19:17
mordredfor anyone who is interested19:17
mordred(that section says "please turn these off")19:18
jeblairmordred: (pholio not in uninstalled-applications == pholio installed?)19:18
anteayamordred: thank you19:18
mordredjeblair: yes19:18
fungianything else on this topic? it looks like ruagair is not around to discuss19:19
tchaypoit’s 5:20am his time :(19:19
clarkbalso jetlag19:20
fungiyep, understandable19:20
zarodoes anybody know ETA on turning on?19:20
clarkbthough not so bad for people on that half of the owrld19:20
fungii slept through a meeting this morning myself19:20
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jeblairfungi: was it this one?19:20
anteayaI almost slept through this one19:20
fungijeblair: zzzzz19:20
jeblairzaro: eta for making the phabricator instance available?19:20
mordredI believe he wants to get auth working before he opens the gates on letting people poke at a beta19:20
zarojeblair: yes.19:21
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fungizaro: your question is missing too many words for me to be confident i'm parsing it accurately19:21
jeblairzaro: yeah, what mordred said, which i read as "pretty soon now"19:21
mordredruagair now has the phabricator side working19:21
mordredand just needs to put cauth in front of it19:21
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fungithough it sounded from the discussion at the summit like cauth was potentially abandonware and in need of some fixing?19:22
mordredI think that was the phab plugin19:22
fungioh, got it19:22
mordredcauth is an enovance thing19:22
fungiwmf is using it for their deployment though, right?19:22
mordredI do not believe so, no19:23
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mordredwe need to use it because we want to integrate with an openid SSO provider19:23
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mordredbut phab does not suppor that. with the help of a plugin, phab _does_ support REMOTE_USER auth19:23
mordredwhich is how cauth provides auth to applications it works with19:24
mordredso the easiest path forward that did not involve us writing PHP19:24
fungigot it19:24
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fungiokay, so discussion on this update seems to be winding down. any other points that need covering before we move on?19:25
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fungi#topic stackalytics.o.o (pabelanger)19:25
*** openstack changes topic to "stackalytics.o.o (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:25
fungii guess this is going well?19:26
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fungii saw discussion on the infra ml about database dumps...19:26
anteayathere is a patch19:27
anteaya#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/190708/19:27
pabelangerWe are at the point for people to review code, and then spin up instances19:27
fungia couple if the agenda is to be believed19:27
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pabelangerstill needs some work before production ready, but could use some help launching the node, and eyes on puppet reviews19:27
pleia2pabelanger: I'm around all week and can help with the node launch19:28
fungiany infra-root admins willing to volunteer to launch the stackalytics.openstack.org production server?19:28
fungiright on!19:28
fungii'm looking forward to this19:28
fungianything else you wanted to talk about wrt stackalytics?19:29
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pabelangerNot too much. going to need some tuning for the server, but think mirantis will help more with that19:30
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fungisounds good19:30
pabelangerall and all, works as expected19:30
fungi#topic Project Renames and Moves19:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Project Renames and Moves (Meeting topic: infra)"19:30
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fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Upcoming_Project_Renames19:30
fungiwe've got a few queued up19:31
fungia typo slipped through in the puppet-openstack_health module's repo name19:31
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clarkbwe should consider moving pbr to openstack/19:31
funginetworking-bigswitch and compass-install want to be unretired and moved to openstack19:31
mordredshould we attempt to get openstack-dev/pbr -> openstack19:31
clarkbso that we don't have to special case it everywhere19:31
mordredclarkb is quicker19:31
anteayawho asked about compass-monit?19:31
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jeblairwhere do we special case pbr?19:32
anteayacompass-monit never indicated they needed to be moved that I saw19:32
funginetworking-bagpipe-l2 apparently wants a slightly shorter repo name19:32
clarkbjeblair: in the install lib from source jobs19:32
fungiand akanda is now astara19:32
clarkbjeblair: so that we can stop cloning all the libs on every d-g run and install them from pypi anyways19:32
fungii agree, rolling these up with some openstack-dev namespace moves would be swell19:32
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jeblairclarkb: wait i don't understand what you just said about cloning...19:33
anteayafungi: did you ask about compass-monit?19:33
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fungianteaya: i added the question about compass-monit mainly because i don't want the compass devs to come back next and ask us to unretire it after the compass-install unretirement19:33
clarkbjeblair: every single d-g job clones the entire default PROJCETS list which is huge19:33
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clarkbjeblair: this list includes a large number of projects that are never used from source on most runs19:34
jeblairclarkb: right, i think you're shortening it?19:34
clarkbjeblair: primarily the oslo libs and python clients19:34
fungianteaya: if we already asked them about the second repo and they said they definitely don't need it, i'll take it off the bullet list there19:34
anteayafungi: oh okay fair, I was concerned I missed something19:34
clarkbjeblair: yup19:34
anteayaI didn't ask them about compass-monit, no19:34
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clarkbjeblair: one of the things I did was in the -src jenkins jobs which install a specific component from source I add openstack/{name} to PROJECTS19:34
clarkbjeblair: that works in all but one case: pbr19:34
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jeblairclarkb: got it19:34
jeblairi understand the connection now :)19:35
fungianteaya: mostly assuming it was the same people responsible for both repos, so if they missed notifications about one then they might have missed both19:35
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anteayafungi: okay fair I will get some specific feedback about compass-monit19:35
fungithanks anteaya!19:35
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fungiso, anyway, i was going to suggest a short-notice maintenance window to knock out the pending renames/moves listed there, so we could squeeze it in prior to the upgrade maintenance, but if we want to bundle it with the openstack-dev moves then maybe we should consider waiting until after the upgrade?19:36
fungii know at least a few projects in -dev wanted to move to openstack proper19:37
anteayaI'm available the 13th, 14th, 20th and 21st19:37
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fungidevstack being the most painful, the others might be a lot simpler (based on discussions with mtreinish and sdague in tokyo)19:37
anteayasorry we are moving all of openstack-dev? I missed that19:38
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fungithe 21st is our gerrit upgrade maintenance, so best not to comingle those i expect19:38
anteayaI thought the 18th was the upgrade?19:39
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pleia2er, isn't that the 18th?19:39
fungioh, right19:39
fungiwe made it wednesday19:39
* pleia2 nods19:39
zarois that bad?19:39
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anteaya#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-November/003357.html19:40
jeblairnibalizer announced the 18th19:40
fungiwell, anyway i'm not around the 13th/14th or 20th/21st either, but if people are eager to get these out of the way then you don't necessarily need me for it19:40
clarkbwould it be worthwhile doing all but devstack?19:40
clarkbjust wondering if we have enough time to do devstack on say the 13th19:41
clarkband if not maybe go ahead with all the others19:41
anteayaclarkb: it would be easy to do all but devstack19:41
fungizaro: we settled on wednesday for the upgrade because of availability of participants and scheduling (per the meeting a couple weeks ago)19:41
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mordredI have a weird suggestions with devstack ...19:41
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mordredwhat if we special-cased it somehow and had gerrit replicate to both openstack/devstack and openstack-dev/devstack for a while19:42
mordredmainly because ther eare SO MANY getting started with devstack guides out there19:42
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mordredthat all start "git clone git://git.openstack.org/opentack-dev/devstack"19:42
fungii did brainstorm that we might be able to symlink it on the filesystem19:42
jeblairmordred: that seems reasonable19:42
fungitalking about it with sdague19:42
mordredI think gerrit can do name mapping in replication config yeah?19:42
fungimight be easier than double-replicating19:42
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jeblairmordred: i'm not certain we can configure gerrit to replicate like that, but worth looking into19:43
mordred(I think we need to have it show up in github too ... unless we put a tiny script in github/openstack-dev/devstack that is a script that clones from github/openstack/devstack19:43
mordredjeblair: ++19:43
clarkbmordred: github will automagically redirect19:43
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fungigithub we'd just transfer it to the openstack prg and their redirects should solve it19:43
jeblairmordred: with github we can take advantage of the redirect19:43
mordredoh! duh19:44
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mordrednm then - symlinks would probably work just fine then19:44
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fungiwe should probably perform a simple test to make sure git:// handles a symlinked repo name19:44
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fungii can give that a try tomorrow probably unless someone beats me to it19:46
mordredso ... while we're at it ...19:46
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mordredmaybe we should just move all the retired stackforge projects to be retired openstack projects so that if ever any of them need to be unretired we don't have to do a rename?19:46
mordred(sine we have a rename event planned anyway)19:47
jeblairmordred: i can see arguments either way on that; but i lean toward thinking they were never in openstack so it's weird/unintuitive to put them there when they are abandoned.19:47
fungiit might make their retired status less discoverable19:47
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mordredya - I don't feel strongly about it at all19:48
mordredjust thought I'd mention as an option19:48
fungiwe did briefly discuss it months ago when the rename plan was being drafted19:48
mordredI was probably drunk19:48
fungii'm sure i was19:48
anteayaI'm in favour of not having to do more reviews than I have to, as I don't want to make mistakes19:48
mordredanteaya: good point19:48
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anteayaif we want to do it another time, I'm fine with that, i just don't favour competition for review time with something more important19:49
fungialso i expect that it's been long enough now and few enough projects actually came forward saying they missed/misunderstood the announcements that i don't expect many more (if any)19:49
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fungiokay, so did we want to consider a rename batch this coming weekend? or one of the weekends immediately before/after the rename, or push it off until late november/later?19:51
anteayaI'm at pyconca this weekend, but y'all don't need me19:51
fungiif we want to batch it up with openstack-dev moves then this weekend is probably too soon19:51
anteayaI'm in favour of splitting them19:51
anteaya-dev with be big and the other renames should be simple19:52
anteayabut I'm thinking about reviewing not downtime19:52
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fungii lean toward expecting we need to provide a bit more advance notice of moving teh contents of openstack-dev since they're pretty widely used compared to the other stuff on the roster19:52
anteayaI agree with that point19:53
mordredfungi: yah19:53
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anteayaif someone is able to do renames this weekend I can review patches before I go19:53
fungialso the weekend before the gerrit upgrade may be a bad idea because that's only a handful of days to iron out any problems resulting from, e.g., the devstack move and it could encroach on upgrade preparations19:54
clarkbI will likely be around this weekend if we do a first batch19:54
fungiyeah, i'm here this weekend as well and can help19:54
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anteayai'll prep the current renames, nothing from -dev19:54
anteayaand get stuff set up if fungi and clarkb want to do the downtime bit19:54
anteayaI will be away Friday and all weekened19:55
jeblairi'm gerrit conferencing this weekend and will not be around19:55
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fungisince we'd be sticking to the simple renames, a couple of us should be plenty19:55
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fungiso let's plan for moving what we can this weekend, and anything which isn't ready for that window will get batched up with an openstack-dev move in late november?19:55
zaroi'm @ gerrit with jeblair as well19:55
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fungis/moving/renaming or moving/19:56
anteayafungi: I can live with that19:56
zaroheads up, watch for this after gerrit restart: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/236056/19:56
anteayaI'll do as much prep as I can and sync with you and clarkb on Thursday19:56
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anteayazaro: thank you19:56
fungizaro: that's only happening on review-dev at the moment, right?19:57
zaronope, should be for both review and review-dev19:57
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anteayahas review-dev been restarted with that change yet?19:57
clarkbzaro: did it fix the cgit linkage?19:58
fungiwhere are the cgit links on review.o.o? i only see it doing gitweb there19:58
clarkbfungi: review.o.o isn't cgit yet iirc19:58
clarkbbecause of this thing19:58
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fungiand this is going to turn it on?19:59
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clarkbno, this just fixes pathing for if/when we turn it on19:59
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* mordred is excited about turning that on19:59
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fungimy confusion is over zaro's comment to watch out for it when restarting gerrit19:59
clarkbI think just make sure that gitweb still works20:00
zaroi just meant, check that it works.20:00
clarkbso mabe we want to check that on review-dev too20:00
mordredyeah - I think the subject of the patch is bong20:00
mordredit's also about fixing gitweb links20:00
fungiahh, thanks. make sure that change didn't break gitweb links and/or the config parsing at startup. got i20:00
anteayaI'm clicking things in review-dev, what should I be clicking?20:00
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fungiwe're waay over time20:01
zaromordred: yes, could have been more general with that.20:01
fungilet's move this to #-infra20:01
fungithanks all!20:01
mordredzaro: no worries :)20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov  3 20:01:28 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-11-03-19.01.html20:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-11-03-19.01.txt20:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-11-03-19.01.log.html20:01
fungisorry ttx/tc members!20:01
* mordred waves at lifeless20:01
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* mestery waves at lifeless and mordred 20:02
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* mordred waves at mestery20:02
* mestery feels a breeze20:02
* fungi wonders how many tc members are still asleep/hung over20:02
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* angdraug settles down in a far corner20:02
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* edleafe lurks as usual20:02
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* krotscheck wonders if ttx is still hung over/asleep ;)20:03
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mordredkrotscheck: I saw him before once in the past20:04
krotscheckmordred: So he's not schrödinger's ttx?20:04
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mordredkrotscheck: he may or may not be20:04
* mestery wonders if he should just go vote in the school board election instead of waiting for the TC meeting to start20:04
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mordredI only count 6 members so far20:05
mordredwhich is not quorum20:05
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mordredthere's 720:06
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* lifeless waves all around20:06
lifelesswell if we're not quorum20:06
lifelesscan we perhaps do the open chat bits20:07
* mordred hands lifeless a nice steak that's almost not chewed on20:07
mihgendaylight savings in ttx timezone.. ?20:07
lifelessthere are three things that came up at the summit I wanted to get broad tc viewpoints on before writing up as governance resolutions20:07
* dhellmann is pretty sure ttx lives in UTC20:07
jaypipesmihgen: yeah, he may have been caught by that20:07
dhellmannlifeless : do you want to startmeeting so we get this logged?20:07
lifeless#startmeeting tc20:07
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov  3 20:07:53 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is lifeless. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:07
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:07
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:07
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:07
lifeless(hopefully thats the right name)20:08
lifelessso, skipping the voting bits for now, we have open discussion with a few starter points20:08
lifelessOpen discussion20:08
lifeless    Summit feedback20:08
lifeless    Reconsidering delayed project team applications20:08
lifeless    Automating objective tag updates20:08
lifeless    Should TC require scaling information from projects (lifeless)?20:08
lifeless    Leadership training for PTL & TC (lifeless)20:08
lifeless    Stabilisation cycle (lifeless)20:08
lifelessis there any general summit feedback ?20:09
dhellmann#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:09
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mesterylifeless: Other than the usual bits about burnout, it was great seeing folks! And Tokyo was quite pleasant :)20:09
mordredthe summit was great- I was very strangely NOT complete toast at the end but was actually excited about stuff20:09
mordredwhich is typically not my emotional or mental state by friday/saturday20:09
lifelessIt was great, but my brain had porridged by the last session every day20:10
flaper87I think it was great, it was packed. The venues layout was a bit unfortunate but I guess there was nothing we could do about that.20:10
angdraugwhat about talks selection process?20:10
lifelessworking till 6 when doing such intense stuff is melty20:10
flaper87I think the TC + Board meeting was better this time20:10
dhellmannI heard from one or two folks who might have wanted to participate in design discussions, but are not ATCs, that they feel the design sessions are being more aggressively closed off to new contributors. One of these people is building up a team with the intent of contributing upstream, so that was particularly concerning to me.20:10
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jeblairdhellmann: what stopped them?20:10
lifelessdhellmann: I've heard a similar thing around facilitation of input20:10
flaper87dhellmann: oh uh20:10
mordreddhellmann: I tink that's a really good point - and speaks to a conflict I think has been growing20:11
angdraugdhellmann: wasn't our experience with puppet-openstack, these were open to lots of new people20:11
lifelessdhellmann: which the leadership training thing overlaps with20:11
mordredwhich is "summit as place for the current cores to plan" vs. "summit as a place to grow community"20:11
dhellmannjeblair : the separation, in part, but also an impression from the way the sessions were run that they might not be welcome. There was no "hard" blocker.20:11
lifelessdhellmann: was it that they couldn't get in the room; couldn't identify the session; couldn't participate once in the room ?20:11
dhellmannangdraug : good to hear20:11
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flaper87dhellmann: do we know what projects exactly left them out? What were the exact actions?20:11
flaper87This would be great material for the diversity group20:11
dhellmannlifeless : a bit more of the latter, though I'd need to get more details20:12
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lifelessflaper87: I don't; the stuff I've heard is second hand20:12
flaper87which I happen to have volunteered to help20:12
lifelessflaper87: ruagair was telling me; perhaps he can follow up with you with more detail20:12
mordredflaper87: ++20:12
lifelessflaper87: (though also see under leadership training)20:12
dhellmannflaper87 : I'll poll for more detail and get back to you directly20:12
lifelessangdraug: what about the talk selection process?20:12
flaper87lifeless: dhellmann awesome, thanks!20:12
jeblairwell, let's be clear -- we have intentionally tried to make it clear that it is not helpful for everyone in the world to attend a design session.  in the past they have been overwhelmed by people showing up requesting features but with no resources to contribute.20:12
angdrauglifeless: https://www.mirantis.com/blog/fixing-openstack-summit-submission-process/20:12
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mordredI'd like to argue that growth and depth are different goals for session20:13
mordred(yeah, what jeblair said)20:13
angdraugthere was a lot of grumbling before the summit that the selection process is not transparent enough20:13
mordredand I think _both_ are valuable20:13
mordredbut trying to do both in a single session is almost impossible20:13
angdraugdisclaimer: my talk wasn't accepted, too :)20:13
flaper87jeblair: mordred yeah, that's why I'd like to understand what happened exactly20:13
dhellmannjeblair : true, but in this case these are folks who do want to become contributors so we may be sending that message too strongly20:13
mordredbecause in one case it's about growing context20:13
lifelessangdraug: that seems to be a foundation thing not tc20:13
jeblairi think people with resources to contribute should very much be welcome, but a design session isn't the place for "can you add foo to neutron?"20:13
mordredjeblair: ++20:13
dhellmannangdraug : we don't select talks20:13
lifelessangdraug: - I agree with the criticism, but I think the most we can do here is resolve that we think it should be open and ask the board/foundation to discuss20:14
angdraugwell maybe that's part of the problem )20:14
dhellmannjeblair : right, this is a company building a new upstream team with the intent of being involved and contributing code, etc. not just "requirements"20:14
lifelessangdraug: I don't think the tc *should* own talk selection :)20:14
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flaper87lifeless: ++20:14
angdraugno, but TC operates in a fairly open manner which can serve as an example20:14
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mordredangdraug: ++20:15
jeblairdhellmann: did they talk to the relevant ptls?20:15
jaypipesangdraug: I will quit the TC if I am forced to review eleventy billion vendor crap talk proposals for the conference.20:15
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lifelessangdraug: sure; anyhow - I suggest your next step is to start a thread on the foundation list, and if it needs tc support, propose a governance resolution to the effect tat we support openness there20:15
dhellmannjeblair : I'll have to get more detail about what actually happened, this was a somewhat casual comment dropped  when I didn't have time for that20:15
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lifelessany other summit feedback ?20:15
jeblairdhellmann: cool20:15
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mordredlifeless: moar robot restaurant at all summits20:15
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angdrauglifeless: thanks, I'll do that20:15
flaper87mordred: ++20:15
greghaynesmordred: ++20:16
angdraugmordred: ++20:16
markmcclaindhellmann: sounds like we need to tweak teh messaging.. ie ATCs and those who intend to contribute in the upcoming cycle20:16
mordredmarkmcclain: ++20:16
edleafemarkmcclain: technical contributors, present and future20:16
lifeless#topic Reconsidering delayed project team applications20:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Reconsidering delayed project team applications (Meeting topic: tc)"20:16
lifeless^ next thing from the list20:17
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flaper87there are 2 projects that need to be reconsidered and from the TC m-l thread, it sounds those will be discussed next week20:17
dhellmannmarkmcclain : right20:17
lifelessthere is no annotation about it; I presume this is saying 'is it time for us to do that yet'? Or perhaps its reconsidering the decision to defer?20:17
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flaper87At least, jaypipes mentioned Monasca and Fuel on the meeting thread20:18
jeblairlooks like monasca, fuel, compass are on our calendar for reconsidering "when mitaka is started"20:18
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jaypipesmarkmcclain: honestly, sounds like a way for people to game the purpose of the design summit to gain entrance when they have no intent to contribute.20:18
lifelessthey are still in the backlog on the wiki page20:18
jaypipesmarkmcclain: see: Paris design summit sessions.20:19
dhellmannttx mentioned in that thread that it would be good to have a mentor assigned to each project to pull together details about where they stand before we proceed20:19
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lifelessI believe ttx was going to play matchmaker20:19
angdraugfor the record, I've updated https://review.openstack.org/#/c/199232/ with links to reports on current state of what was raised as blockers the last time fuel was discussed20:19
jaypipesangdraug: excellent work on that, BTW, thank you.20:19
lifelessso lets defer this till we have a ttx?20:19
jaypipeslifeless: yeah, I think a vote on these next week was the general consensus from the ML.20:20
dhellmannyeah, unless we have volunteers now?20:20
dhellmannoh, definitely defer the voting20:20
flaper87I guess we can add them to the meeting topics anyway20:20
lifelessI'll put them in the list for next week after the meeting20:20
lifeless#topic Automating objective tag updates20:20
*** openstack changes topic to "Automating objective tag updates (Meeting topic: tc)"20:20
daemontoolsorry, what's a ttx?20:20
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lifelessdaemontool: the chair of this meeting20:20
lifelessdaemontool: thierry carrez20:20
lifelessI don't know who put this topic up20:21
lifelessif you're here, speak up :)20:21
lifeless... deferring to next week20:22
lifeless#topic Should TC require scaling information from projects (lifeless)20:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Should TC require scaling information from projects (lifeless) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:22
angdrauglifeless: that was ttx20:22
lifelessso this came out of one of the cross project sessions20:22
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lifelessI'll turn it into a governance thing, but I wanted to have some informal discussion first20:22
lifelessthe basic idea is that we're missing at a governance level: a clear lexicon for talking about scaling20:23
lifeless(e.g. request rate vs cloud-size vs workload dynamics)20:23
mordredI will agree that there is no clear lexicon for this currently20:23
lifelessand that projects should be responsible for their own scaling destiny but20:23
lifelesswe can and should require them to document how they scale, and how deployers should scale them20:24
angdraughow can you keep something like that objective?20:24
lifelesse.g. does $project  scale by a single big cluster, or a federation of clusters, or ...20:24
flaper87mmh, isn't that part of the deployment docs?20:24
mihgenscale has a number of implications on architecture in general, not only deployment architecture20:24
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lifelessflaper87: certainly you'd expect it there, but it also speaks to the architecture and design20:25
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lifelessflaper87: e.g. if someone wants to make nova more scalable, what does that mean? Whats the vision there?20:25
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lifeless(I happen to know, but tribal knowledge vs clear articulation)20:25
lifeless[and actually I suspect nova is one of the more clear cases]20:26
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flaper87sure, I agree that's helpful. But, that's still documentation. I guess I'd rather require having docs than just architectural docs20:27
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flaper87lifeless: I guess you're thinking to communicate this through a tag20:27
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angdraugone way to measure scalability objectively is require projects to run specific Rally test scenarios...20:27
lifelessflaper87: so you're not against the idea of us requiring that projects figure this out20:27
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lifelessangdraug: I don't actually care about object here.20:28
lifelessangdraug: I care that projects a) own the problem b) know they own it, c) communicate about it20:28
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lifelessflaper87: I don't know if a tag is the right thing, but perhaps it is20:28
flaper87I'm not against the idea this is something projects should figure out20:28
lifelessflaper87: I'm entirely fine if we say that this goes in the deploy docs20:28
flaper87lifeless: I don't think it is, which is why I mentioned it20:28
flaper87deploy docs should be fine20:29
lifelessflaper87: but I *do* think this should be a basic thing that we require of everyone20:29
jaypipeslifeless: perhaps this is something we can have the newly-formed performance working group be responsible for enforcing the documentation requirements in such a tag?20:29
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dhellmannso the proposal is that we just have projects include this kind of information in their docs? what sort of governance change does that require?20:30
flaper87jaypipes: ah, good thought20:30
lifelessjaypipes: if they wanted to take on following up with each project etc that would be great.20:30
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lifelessjaypipes: I worry that performance != scaling, and that a centralised WG may not be a good fit for the work needed.20:30
lifelessjaypipes: but we can certainly try that as a first iteration.20:30
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lifelessdhellmann: governance - I'm thinking a resolution that projects must do this, which is then included under "The project meets any policies that the TC requires all projects to meet" on http://governance.openstack.org/reference/new-projects-requirements.html20:31
angdrauglifeless: performance group is a subgroup of large deployments team, so it is specifically about performance at scale20:32
lifelessangdraug: this just illustrates how performance != scale :)20:32
lifelessangdraug: a small deployment doing very dynamic workloads may have huge scaling concerns20:32
jaypipeslifeless: angdraug knows the difference between scale and performance. he is saying that the perf working group deals with both.20:33
angdraugwhat he said :)20:33
dhellmannlifeless: ok, I guess that makes sense. We could collect some other basic expectations for documentation at the same time or in another patch.20:33
flaper87I honestly don't know if this should be part of the governance enforcement. If we're going to make it so, I'd like to see other docs being required as well20:34
lifelessdhellmann: I'd like to make other docs things separate, because each thing we ask for implies a chunk of work20:34
flaper87even basic deployment, which in some cases are missing20:34
lifelessflaper87: so, for servers, having basic deployment docs seems like a thing we should indeed require20:34
lifelessflaper87: much as we require the project testing interface so they can be CI tested20:34
lifelessand I'd support that; just suggest it be a series of patches.20:35
dhellmannlifeless: sure20:35
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lifelessok, I think there's little disagreement here, so I'll put a proposal up in the near future20:35
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lifeless#topic Leadership training for PTL & TC (lifeless)20:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Leadership training for PTL & TC (lifeless) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:35
lifelessthis was suggested to me in a hallway track session :)20:36
lifelessbasically, we've got 2.5k folk in our technical sub-community20:36
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lifelessand at the moment a completely adhoc set of skills for doing the leadership20:36
lifelesswe're voted in and that doesn't imply knowing how to ... lead20:36
mesterylifeless: I'd consider it more tribal knowledge, but we're close20:36
* fungi certainly doesn't know how to lead. recommendations welcome!20:37
lifelessso, what do we think of the idea of having a (say) 2-day leadership course before each summit? paid for my the foundation20:37
lifelessseems like a small amount of investment for an actually very important thing20:38
dhellmannI like the idea20:38
flaper87fwiw, I've brought this up a couple of times from a TC perspective and a PTL perspective. One thing we did to help here was writing the project-team-guide but that's certainly enough.20:38
lifelessflaper87: *is enough* or *isn't enough* ?20:38
dhellmannI'm not sure we want to limit attendance to ptls, maybe all cores could be invited (to grow new ptls for the next cycle, for example)20:38
flaper87lifeless: isn't* (sorry)20:38
mesteryI like the idea too20:38
markmcclainconcerned that it would make for a very loooong week20:38
mesterydhellmann: ++20:39
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lifelessdhellmann: so theres a magnitude thing. Leadership courses in my experience are pretty hands-on for the teachers20:39
jeblairi'm not a fan of formalized leadership training20:39
mesterymarkmcclain: It would be optional, of course20:39
lifelessdhellmann: and 200+ cores is a big group20:39
dhellmannlifeless: true20:39
flaper87I like the idea but I'd like us, as a community, to think what else we can do throughout the cycle20:39
dhellmannlifeless: I wouldn't expect them all to attend, and we could cap it20:39
flaper87for example, how can we help folks to run for PTL ?20:39
lifelessjeblair: would you object to other people going? Like, is it a negative? Or you don't want to be forced to go?20:39
flaper87I think part of the PTL job is to create new PTLs20:39
flaper87What can we do to help spreading that knowledge?20:39
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lifelessflaper87: I think thats a good thing to do too.20:39
anteayaleadership isn't something you learn by taking a course20:39
flaper87The same thing goes for the TC20:39
fungimy main objection to formal leadership training is that it's usually pretty terrible20:40
daemontoolanteaya,  ++20:40
jeblairlifeless: forced to go?  now i don't even like talking about it.20:40
dhellmannanteaya: there are definitely skills that can be explained, though20:40
lifelessjeblair: I'm trying to understand where you are coming from! I had no intention of suggesting mandatory attendance20:40
mesteryI'm not sure we could force people to go even if we wanted to20:41
fungito extend anteaya's comment, leadership isn't something you learn by taking a course, but you may learn it by teaching a course ;)20:41
angdraugI'm worried that having only some target people attend the course will create a divide between them and those who couldn't or chose not to attend20:41
flaper87ttx: welcome ?20:41
anteayadhellmann: I think mentoring is the best support structure of leadership skills, which yes can be learned20:41
lifelessttx: ola!20:41
ttxsorry had connection trouble20:41
anteayafungi: true20:41
* ttx catches up20:41
angdrauganteaya: ++20:41
dhellmannanteaya : ok, not everyone learns the same way20:42
lifelessanteaya: I think having a mentor is an important thing; courses can be useful too.20:42
anteayadhellmann: yes20:42
flaper87What I'm saying is: I'd like us to do something as a community rather than doing it at the summit. If we can get something going, we may as well start thinking how to bring this to the summit20:42
lifelessright now we have neither mentors nor courses.20:42
ttxare we at quorum now ? Or should we just defer all topics to next week ?20:42
dhellmannttx: we had at least 7 when we started20:42
flaper87ttx: if we can make it in 20mins, sure20:42
lifelessttx: I don't know; I've another discussion topic to cover stil...20:42
flaper87sure == "lets do it now"20:42
fungithe leadership summits which run before oscon might make an interesting model. how well have those worked (for those who have attended)?20:43
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dhellmannfungi : good question20:43
lifelessfungi: I believe they're an unconference, but yes an interesting model20:43
lifelessFWIW I suspect I can find a volunteer to research a -good- trainer if we were to have funds20:44
dhellmannlifeless : do you have a specific course in mind, yet? or are you seeking approval for the general idea at this point?20:44
persialeadership unconference tends to cause leaders to emerge in ways that leadership lectures do not20:44
ttxNot a big fan of mandatory leadership training. Agree with fungi all the leadership training I've been forced to go through so far has been pretty terrible20:44
lifelessso the main thing I want to do is to get enough consensus that we can write a request to the foundation asking for money to put something on20:44
mordredttx: ++20:44
dhellmannttx: I don't think this was meant to be mandatory20:44
lifelesswhich we'd need for either an unconference or a course20:44
thingeettx: +120:44
anteayaI advocate for money for a formal mentoring program20:44
lifelessdhellmann: it was not meant to be mandatory20:44
fungii'm more of an unconference person myself, so maybe it's different strokes for different folks20:44
anteayawhich includes outreachy20:45
mordredI have never taken a leadership training course that has been good. I have taken many leadership training courses20:45
mordredthis does not mean that future courses will not be good20:45
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mordredmerely that my past experience has been rather bad20:45
lifelessmordred: so gothicmindfood in particular was interested in this20:45
angdraugmordred: then again, see the definition of madness20:45
lifelessmordred: I rather suspect she could find a good one, if there is a good one20:45
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persiaThe only leadership training course that I know to be good involves many months of mud, and is too large a time sacrifice for most folk.20:45
ttxlifeless: do you have a specific training in mind ?20:45
mordredlifeless: I agree with you on that20:45
lifelessttx: not at this point; it sounds like that would be important to a number of the folk here20:46
anteayapersia: that is my experience as well20:46
anteayapersia: including the mud20:46
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pleia2fungi: I'm a big fan of the leadership summits and have attended a couple times, they're particularly valuable to me since they also still tend to skew toward open source leadership/communities20:46
lifelessttx: so I'll see if gothicmindfood can lay hands on one. I believe zimmermans do one, for instance20:46
pleia2actually, three times20:46
jeblairpersia: now i'm seeing an opportunity to combine leadership training and the stabilization cycle (if we get the right group of people in 6 month mud-based leadership training)20:46
lifelessjeblair: ++20:46
mordredjeblair: ++20:46
lifeless#topic Stabilisation cycle (lifeless)20:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Stabilisation cycle (lifeless) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:47
lifelessspeaking of20:47
fungii have no problem bringing it to the foundation staff if there's a more concrete idea, but keep in mind we've just gotten approval for the 2016 budget so some budget wizardry may be necessary20:47
mordredfungi: we allocated _plenty_ of money for the 2016 budget :)20:47
jeblairmordred: i think that was fungi's point :)20:47
lifelessso in the cross project session20:47
lifelessI forget which one20:47
jeblairlifeless: priorities?20:48
lifelessthere was lots of support for more effort on stabilisation20:48
lifelessjeblair: yes20:48
dhellmannfungi: maybe the thing to do is encourage folks to attend the leadership summit you and pleia2 mentioned20:48
jeblairor 'themes'?20:48
dhellmannjeblair : themes20:48
lifelessdhellmann: so a whole extra trip is a big deal for folk with families/larg travel loads20:48
dhellmannlifeless : encourage not require20:48
lifelessdhellmann: I am talking opportunity20:48
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lifelessdhellmann: e.g. if they want to go but can't20:49
lifelessdhellmann: but could do 2 more days on the summit20:49
anteayaleadership work fries your brain20:49
lifelessdhellmann: for me, I spend 3 days travelling to get anywhere(and back)20:49
anteayaI don't see it mixing well with summit20:49
dhellmannlifeless : yeah, I get it. Just looking at options.20:49
lifelessok so stabilisation20:49
lifelessthere was considerable concern that we *can't* do stabilisation work because orgs will push stuff up regardless20:50
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fungior perhaps the concern was that we don't have an effective way to tell them that we'll be ignoring most of their feature patches in favor of bug fixes?20:50
lifelessI think we as tc need to lead the way to enable it20:50
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lifelesse.g specifically I'm thinking that we need to:20:50
lifeless 1) declare that in our view X% of time should be stabilisation work (whether thats 25%, 50%, whatever) for some cycle.20:51
lifeless 2) tell the *board* that we've declared this and ask them to communicate back to the member companies to please work with on this20:51
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lifeless 3) act as a point of contact for folk feeling squashed out or whatever20:52
lifelessI'm told that some companies tie bonuses to employees getting features into upstream20:52
persia(3) could be a significant time sink20:52
ttxlifeless: I don't expect that to make a lot of difference20:52
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lifelessso when we push back on features20:52
lifelessfolk lose money20:52
lifelessand get very stressed20:52
fungiwhen we ignore languishing bugs, openstack breaks and folk lose money20:52
flaper87I've the feeling we've tried this before (or at least some projects did)20:52
mordredI think a declaration in enough advance20:52
flaper87Am I wrong?20:52
lifelesspersia: compared to the time lost across 200+ cores dealing with intransigent contributors?20:53
ttx"telling the board" has never worked to influence priorities or get resources for specific things.20:53
lifelesspersia: drop in the ocean20:53
russellbsorry i missed the meeting ... i got pwned by DST20:53
mesteryI have a hard time seeing how any sort of declaration from the TC could be effective here20:53
mordredlifeless: I'd like to suggest an amendment to your suggestoin20:53
fungirussellb: utc for life!20:53
mesteryHow many of these orgs actually pay attention to what we're already declaring?20:53
anteayarussellb: everyone has their turn, thanks for taking one for the team20:53
russellbfungi: someone tell google calendar to support putting things in UTC time :(20:53
persialifeless: Yes which implies that we don't really expect to do (3), so it is perhaps inappropriate to claim it?20:53
ttxWe have been "telling the board" about a lot of things.20:53
jaypipesttx: ++20:53
ttxlike "infra is important"20:53
mordredwhich is that in 2, we don't tell the board, we go the board and say "we'd like to take a cycle to do a stabalization cycle, whacha think, y'all on board with us?"20:53
persiarussellb: Tell Google Calendar you live in Reykjavik20:54
lifelessmestery: the users are telling us they want it, the product wg is telling us they want very *specific* features, and the product wg is a delegate of the board20:54
ttxor "technical writers could be helpful"20:54
russellbpersia: noted20:54
stevebakerI hear some on the board want an even faster feature velocity :/20:54
angdraugjust a thought: how about declaring that if by milestone-2 an objective bugs metric per project doesn't reach a level considered stable, the project has to announce an early feature freeze?20:54
lifelesspersia: no, it implies that we can save a huge amount of time if we can divert the effort from individuals into an org-to-org discussion20:54
fungiapparently you also told the board the big tent was a thing, and then at the last meeting they were all like "wait, what, that happened?"20:54
flaper87stevebaker: indeed, and that was brought up at the meeting on monday20:54
jeblairfungi: well, 1/24 of the board20:54
persialifeless: Ah, at that level.  I retract my concern20:54
dhellmannfungi : to be fair, only a couple of board members seemed surprised20:55
lifelessttx: I'm proposing a specific ask of the board, not a general 'you should know' statement20:55
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lifelessmordred: whats your amendment ?20:55
mordredwhich is that in 2, we don't tell the board, we go the board and say "we'd like to take a cycle to do a stabalization cycle, whacha think, y'all on board with us?"20:55
lifelessmordred: fair, sure.20:55
ttxlifeless: well, we did formally ask for a few things in the past, too20:55
lifelessttx: like the dco, which we got...20:55
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anteayaafter asking and asking and asking20:56
mordredI belive we also need to be clearer on this20:56
ttxlifeless: that's different from influencing resources20:56
mordrednot "we want to do more stabalization"20:56
fungipersistence pays off, apparently20:56
lifelessI know that the board members don't actually control the engingeering at their orgs20:56
mordredbut rather "N will be a stabalization release with _no_ features"20:56
ttxlifeless: right, my point20:56
lifelessbut right now the leaders in various projects believe they can't even *try*20:56
ttxit's doable to switch to DCO, that's a board decision.20:56
mordredand we ask the foundation staff to help us communicate that to all of the orgs out there20:56
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lifelessso I think it is up to us to find a way to enable them20:56
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ttxit's much more difficult to relay that nobody should add features20:56
mordredttx: yes it is20:57
mordredttx: however, we should still try20:57
lifelessI believe it is worth doing20:57
lifelessdoes anyone here object to trying ?20:57
mordredit turns out that we DO have the ability as a project to not take features20:57
ttxAlso not sure we can have a blanket % for stable work for all projects20:57
persiaMany orgs will add features in forks, saving them for the following cycle.20:57
ttxpersia: ++20:57
lifelesspersia: I could care less if they do that.20:57
mordredsame here20:57
dhellmannlifeless : we'd need to be careful with scheduling. Is N too soon?20:57
lifelesspersia: if we save the core bandwidth - our bottleneck - duing N, (or O, or whatever) - great20:58
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flaper87there are projects doing multi-cycle schedules20:58
persialifeless: when they use engineering that might otherwise collaborate in reviews?20:58
flaper87this would just break that20:58
flaper87I don't mind trying/fighting for this20:58
lifelessok so it sounds like20:58
ttxHmm, just two points I want to salvage from the agenda in the remaining 2 min20:58
lifeless0) discuss with the PTLs20:58
lifeless1) etc my proposal with mordreds amendment20:59
jeblairflaper87: multi-cycle schedules might still work with 50% stabilization effort20:59
lifelessI'll put up a thing20:59
dhellmannflaper87 : maybe rather than declaring that all projects will do this, we build a way for a given project to declare that they will do it, and then let them decide when it's appropriate?20:59
lifelessttx: go20:59
flaper87Might be a good cross-project session for the next cycle20:59
lifelessflaper87: I think we need to socialise this now20:59
markmcclainstabilization is a tricky thing because there will likely be some features we'll want in a release so for those that do have long term roadmaps they could select 1-2 important ones20:59
lifelessflaper87: its a discussion with 4 or so different constituencies20:59
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flaper87dhellmann: that would be better. Instead of doing it on every project, we let projects to schedule their own20:59
flaper87I really feel like some projects have done this but I might be wrong. I'm saying this because I'd like to hear the feedback21:00
lifelessflaper87: I don't think the board is capable of agreeing at that granularity21:00
mordredisn't the real thing that's being asked for is the air cover for projects who want to do it and feel that they cannot make the choice to?21:00
lifelessexactly, I'm proposing we put in place the air cover21:00
ttxtime is off21:00
flaper87mordred: yup21:00
edleafe'stabilization' is also vague. We should first identify the instabilities21:00
flaper87lifeless: end the meeting21:01
mesteryedleafe: ++21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov  3 21:01:13 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-11-03-20.07.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-11-03-20.07.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-11-03-20.07.log.html21:01
lifelessedleafe: mestery: actually I don't think that that is compatible with what we need21:01
thingee#startmeeting crossproject21:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov  3 21:01:30 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is thingee. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'crossproject'21:01
thingeehi everyone!21:01
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thingeecourtesy ping for smelikyan morganfainberg adrian_otto bswartz slagle21:01
thingeecourtesy ping for adrian_otto mestery kiall jeblair thinrichs j^2 stevebaker21:02
thingeecourtesy ping for mtreinish Daisy Piet notmyname ttx isviridov gordc SlickNik21:02
thingeecourtesy ping for cloudnull loquacities thingee hyakuhei redrobot dirk TravT21:02
thingeecourtesy ping for vipul annegentle SergeyLukjanov devananda boris-42 nikhil_k and lifeless21:02
* edleafe is still lurking in the shadows21:02
* fungi wonders how this courtesy ping list is assembled21:02
PietRunning late21:02
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thingeefungi: copy/paste from last chair21:02
fungi(not that i need more irc highlights)21:02
thingeeAgenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting21:02
PietMeeting with LBaaS folks21:02
thingee#topic Review past action items21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Review past action items (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:03
jeblairthingee: please s/jeblair/fungi/ :)21:03
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dhellmannthingee : would you add me to the ping list, please?21:03
markmcclainthingee: that looks to mix of old/new ptls21:03
docaedoo/ (sans courtesy ping!)21:03
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thingeeso the only thing I noticed from the previous meeting that's still left is...21:04
thingeefrom the api-wg Add http400 for reference to nonexistent resource21:04
thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/221163/21:04
thingeeI think we were expecting PTL love with that review...21:05
thingeeanything else I'm missing?21:05
thingee#topic Horizontal Team Announcements21:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Horizontal Team Announcements (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:05
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dhellmannplease check the [release] topic on the mailing list for several announcements related to release process and tool changes21:06
fungi#info Gerrit 2.11 upgrade maintenance will be Wednesday, November 1821:06
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thingee#info Release communication change21:07
thingee#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/078277.html21:07
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/078113.html21:07
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thingee#info release process change21:07
Jokke_could we also get everyone announcing releases to use that [release] tag in the subject, please?21:07
thingee#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/078280.html21:07
thingee#info release stable changes21:07
thingee#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/078281.html21:07
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dhellmannJokke_ : release announcements should actually be going to openstack-announce not openstack-dev21:07
dhellmannthingee : thanks21:08
Jokke_dhellmann: they do ... and most of them has [release] tag in the subject so they are easy to filter, but there are some odds that comes through :P21:08
dhellmannJokke_ : ok21:08
fungithose are probably ones not being done through the release management scripts21:08
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thingee#info consensus from the summit on distributed lock management21:09
thingee#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/078214.html21:09
thingeethanks lifeless for write up21:09
thingeeanything else?21:10
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thingee#topic Proposed changes to the cross-project meeting21:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Proposed changes to the cross-project meeting (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:10
thingee#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-October/077997.html21:11
thingeedarn was hoping anne would be here21:11
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thingeeso in the summit session...21:11
thingee#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-crossproject-comms21:11
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thingeewe discussed the proposal of having an ad-hoc meeting as oppose to have meetings at a set time like we do today21:12
ttxthingee: skipped the design summit feedback topic ?21:12
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* thingee was feeling anxious21:13
thingeettx: sorry accident21:13
persiathingee: was there not also discussion of a dedicated channel for those to avoid schedule hassle here?21:13
ttxok, let's talk about that after this one21:13
thingeethe idea would be the meetings would be held in a separate channel is neccesary, but people can call meetings for the needed people and announce them for the public to attend as well.21:14
ttxthingee: one consequence is that we wouldn't have news anymore, only targeted meetings21:14
bknudsonmy understanding of the way that the x-proj work for service catalog standardization is going to be coordinated is in their own standing meeting21:15
notmynamethe idea presented as a replacement for the meeting (curated list of "current happenings") isn't bad. the thing I worry about though is completely automating away interpersonal communication21:15
bknudsonso that will be an interesting experiment in x-proj work21:15
Jokke_That sounds like really messy and good way to exclude lots of people who don't have time or resources to keep track if and when such meeting was called together21:15
thingeethis would be great because hopefully meetings would be less frequent, which could bring more usefulness to these kind of meetings.21:15
Jokke_I'm all up for own channel that is for ad-hoc but I don't think it should replace the static one21:15
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thingeeJokke_: my advice to those people is don't rely on ptl's to attend. I voiced in the session to assign people to be the liaison.21:16
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thingeeptls are not reliable here.21:16
thingeenor should they be21:16
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bknudsondoes the product wg have their own weekly meeting? seems like there's overlap with this one.21:16
bknudson(didn't find it https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings )21:16
thingeethis existed before product wg21:16
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thingeebut seriously, I don't know what the overlap is21:17
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Jokke_thingee: I'm not PTL and I don't have intention to track if someone happens to call meeting for some arbitrary time ;)21:17
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fungilooks like they do wednesdays 20-21 hour utc21:18
dhellmannJokke_ : I think the idea is that only folks interested need to attend those meetings, so they would schedule it at a time that is convenient for them21:18
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thingeeso here's the proposal, lets allow the meetings to happen as they needed, we'll pick the days they can possibly happen... they won't just be any random days.21:19
ttxOK so the two concerns seem to be: losing in-person direct communication of random things (the "news" part of this meeting), and increased difficulty to follow cross-project spec work due to weirdly-scheduled meetings21:19
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thingeebut teams should be assigning someone or multiple people to attend the meetings to report back if the ptl is too busy.21:19
fungialso worth noting the wiki list of meetings is likely best replaced by a link to http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/ now21:19
Jokke_dhellmann: and that's perfectly fine, but if it kills this one clear moment every week to catch up what's going on, I don't think it's way to go. It might be just me who relies for this meeting and if so I just suck my losses21:19
fungithe meeting in question is listed there21:20
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lifelessthingee: so I haven't replied to the list21:20
lifelessthingee: esummitbusy21:20
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lifelessthingee: but I really don't like the idea of having to figure out every single week where I should be21:20
lifelessthingee: meetings are super disruptive to my flow21:20
lifelessthingee: and I suspect to other peoples too21:20
lifelessthingee: the back-to-back thing works welle21:20
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lifelessthingee: I have *no* objection to folk having additional adhoc meetings21:21
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thingeeJokke_: may I suggest for folks that rely on this meeting to keep up to use the dev summary from the newsletter http://www.openstack.org/blog/2015/09/openstack-weekly-community-newsletter-sept-19-25/21:21
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nikhilthe channel cant be a replacement, surely an addition to xprj work21:22
Jokke_somehow for me the proposal seems like Product WG wants to take over this meeting, so I'd like to ask how many of the participans are part of that WG currently?21:22
thingeelifeless: so the idea would be we would have one (or two?) potential day(s) picked out the meeting can be called for, but they might not happen.21:22
dhellmannJokke_ : that's not where the proposal came from21:22
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thingeeJust like today, it will be announced a day before on a list.21:22
fungiwhy would the product working group want to take over this meeting? as i said, they meet wednesdays21:22
thingeeSo the only real change is, the meeting may happen, or it may not.21:23
thingeethat's about it21:23
persiaMy memory of the session was that things that needed everyone would be here, and things that only needed 2-3 projects could be at more convenient times for the relevant stakeholders.21:23
thingeedoes anyone have a problem with the meeting potentially not happening some weeks?21:23
thingeebecausee there is nothing to discuss21:23
Jokke_dhellmann: fungi: that's what the etherpad says under "Way Forward:"21:23
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lifelessthingee: so I'm being more specific - if the meeting is on different days week to week there's something like 90% chance I won't be able to make it at all21:23
fungithingee: we've got precedent. we already have cancelled in the past when the agenda was empty21:24
lifelessthingee: my us-overlap hours combined with other meetings that already exist21:24
thingeeotherwise people are saying, yes we want to have this meeting to discuss what is already been given in the dev list summary.21:24
lifelessthingee: plus the disruption of a meeting in the middle of a productive time period21:24
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lifelessthingee: I have no problem with a cancelled meeting21:24
thingeelifeless: ok, so the day(s) won't change.21:24
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thingeeor time21:24
lifelessthingee: sure, so this time slot but cancelled if nothing to discuss - fine21:25
dhellmannthingee : I'm happy for this meeting to continue as-is, and I will try to attend as often as possible, but I have already told folks not to expect me to repeat myself about release-related things in this meeting.21:25
smcginnislifeless: +121:25
thingeedhellmann: +121:25
notmynamedhellmann: that seems harsh (or extreme)21:26
thingeecool, that's pretty much the proposal.. I guess it sounds scary when we propose it that people call the agenda (like we do today), and it can be cancelled otherwise (like we do today).21:26
Jokke_thingee: I think you put it really well ... discussed over the meeting vs. given in the newsletter ... I hope that wasn't intentional other than the announcements part dhellmann referred to21:26
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bknudson"We need to make progress on migrating off Launchpad" -- what are we migrating to?21:26
dhellmannnotmyname : I want the discussion on the ML for everyone to be able to be involved/informed21:26
angdraugbknudson: Maniphest21:27
fungibknudson: and openstackid21:27
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persia+Reno +???21:27
fungibknudson: and specs.openstack.org21:27
fungibknudson: it depends on what lp feature you're talking about, of course21:27
thingeenotmyname, dhellmann: I think it goes back to what I said in the session... there are too many places people have discussions on things. It would be good if we can pick the places for certain things and leave it there for referencing.21:27
notmynameyeah, but flat-out rejecting one place that is designed for dissemination of info because people should have read it elsewhere seems like it would lead to less communication, not more21:27
dhellmannthingee : right21:28
fungibknudson: the new release management toolchain is also replacing some things for which our community uses launchpad21:28
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dhellmannnotmyname : I don't want 1/2 of the message in one place and 1/2 in another, and I don't think this meeting is particularly well suited to the discussion of the things I expect to be bringing up21:28
fungibknudson: and uploading signed tarballs to pypi replaces yet another thing we do with launchpad now21:29
nikhilfungi: what abt bugs?21:30
funginikhil: maniphest21:30
notmynamedhellmann: yeah, I understand that. and yet here we are having a discussion about this during the meeting, not on the ML ;-)21:30
thingeenotmyname: is this just in regard to release announcements, or all projects?21:30
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dhellmannnotmyname : so don't expect me to repeat myself about this on the ML :-)21:30
docaedojust want to share I'm pretty excited about move to maniphest21:31
nikhilseems like we want to encourage async comm more on a few things21:31
ttxnotmyname: what type of information do you think would be missing ? We have been asking for news all of Liberty cycle and very few apart from infra and release managhement have given news here21:31
nikhilbut we should not get rid of real time , interactive comm -- what irc is made for21:31
ttxnews that were already communicated on the ML21:32
ttxand already repeated in digest channels21:32
Pietdocaedo: The cool thing about Phabricator is that it also has a mock review tool so we can move from Invision to a open source solution21:32
dhellmannnikhil : I don't want to get rid of it, just use it for the types of things it is more appropriate for. There's no reason for anyone to sit through a real-time info dump of announcements in this meeting, for example.21:32
thingeeso for other project announcements, usually don't concern everyone IMO. ANy other time you want to communicate something it can be on the ML for those interested, or I find some announcements are successful related things, in which you can use the successbot https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Successes21:32
ttxso it feels like a request for infra/relmgt people to show up and talk on the channel you're used to tune to21:32
notmynamettx: I think there's 2 types of things that happen in IRC meetings vs ML threads: (1) quick clarifying questions with real-time feedback and (2) prioritized things to highlight21:33
thingeenotmyname: so ping for clairification on #openstack-dev?21:33
notmynameeg "this is the new release procedure" "oh, ok, so that means X for Y ...?" that might not otherwise be asked21:33
fungii'm happy to keep popping in for this timeslot and announcing things if people really find it helpful, but i also don't mind reclaiming my tuesday evening ;)21:33
notmynamethingee: except the defined time for the meeting means people are here21:33
notmynamethingee: instead of "I wonder if that person is awake now"21:34
nikhildhellmann: surely, but this meeting has been useful for getting wider audiences in cross prj efforts. sometimes the news isn't much of a news rather a well designed proposal that is good to go but needs some feedback21:34
notmynameand the Ml is very high traffic, to say the least. it's extremely easy to miss stuff on the ML21:34
lifelessnikhil: I believe dhellmann is differentiating between21:34
dhellmannnotmyname : for release management, we'll be sending regular email updates about what projects ought to be focusing on at a given point in the cycle, deadlines coming up, etc. (covering your #2)21:34
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lifelessnikhil: operational release things21:34
ttxhmm, I guess we could keep the "town hall soapbox space" just after the TC meeting21:34
fungii've generally never announced anything in here which didn't already have a corresponding broad announcement to at least the dev ml as well, but i guess it's possible for some people to have needle-in-haystack issues there21:34
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lifelessnikhil: and design work21:35
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nikhillifeless: I am cool with that, just saying out loud on what21:35
nikhilwhat's been helpful21:35
notmynamedon't hear me saying "meetings are awesome and must be kept". I hate meetings as much as the next dev. but I want to make sure that we have good/better communication, and it seems like the arguments against a meeting are about stuff we *could* do, so it's hard to judge its effectiveness against this meeting (IMO)21:35
notmynameI've found the highlighted cross-project and release stuff useful in here21:36
notmynameI've missed things on the mailing list21:36
nikhilfungi: right you are21:36
notmynameand I've gotten clarification for (what I think are) small questions in this meeting. that I probably wouldn't have written an email about21:36
ttxthingee: maybe we should keep the slot for a random announcements space21:36
thingeenotmyname: the dev list summary aims to help with the highlights you mightve missed from the week21:36
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notmynameinstead I would have done a one-off question in -dev or -infra. and that means it's impossible to search or for anyone else to find21:37
ttxfor randomly-present people21:37
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nikhilttx: that's a really hip name you chose21:37
Jokke_dhellmann: I think we're also fine you scripting your presence over the announcements and having hilight when people asks these dumb questions :P21:37
notmynamettx: on the other hand, if people are refusing to mention stuff in a meeting that has already been brought up via the ML, then there isn't really a point to the meeting21:37
thingeettx: I'm fine with keeping the slot. The only change we're really proposing here is we're not going to hold a meeting for announcements. Unless there is something to discuss cross-project wise, the meeting could be cancelled21:37
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lifelessthingee: so where would announcements go21:38
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ttxlifeless: they already happen on the ML21:38
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ttxnot here21:38
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thingeelifeless: what are the kind of announcements people make today?21:38
thingeethat involved others to know?21:38
lifelessso, lets talk about constraints21:38
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lifelesswe announced them21:38
lifelessand gave status updates21:38
lifelessmany times21:38
lifelessand at the last summit folk - old hands, not new folk - were asking what they were21:39
lifelessI'm not sure that announcing them here would work better21:39
thingeeI've covered your constraint discussions in the dev list summary before.21:39
ttxlifeless: right. You can't expect people to be present here, so annoucning something at the meeting is a bit useless21:39
lifelessbut 'its on the list' isn't a sufficient thing21:39
lifelessttx: we announced them *on the list*21:39
persiaNor is here a sufficient thing21:39
ttxlifeless: and on this meeting21:39
lifelessttx: and as thingee says they were in the dev summary too21:40
lifelessso I guess my point is defense in depth21:40
nikhilyeah, so the kind of awareness this meeting builds is lost with making ad-hoc or off-to-async-ML change21:40
ttxmy point is... announcing on the meeting doesn't really change a thing. People ignored the discussion because they thought it didn't affect them21:40
ttxthey ignored it on the ML, on the dev digest *and* on the meeting.21:41
thingeehere's an idea...21:41
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thingeelets try it out21:42
* notmyname predicts that someday elected positions in openstack will be required (strongly encouraged) to submit frequent status updates "up"21:42
persiaAd-hoc forces polity acceptance, as those invited to be present become aware they must be present.21:42
ttxdiluting communication channels can have an unintended consequence of people ignoring all of them21:42
thingeeif we find the new means of announcement is not working out, we'll talk it out on the dev list and could bring back the meeting?21:42
thingeeanyone opposed to trying it out?21:43
dhellmannthingee : wfm21:43
ttxthingee: let's do that, and switch to next topic while there is still time :)21:43
bknudsonhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wfG8ngFvPk -- he he21:43
thingee#action thingee to working Anne on finalizing guideline for approval by community21:43
notmynamethingee: I can work with that. the goal isn't process, it's communication. communication is suboptimal now, so I'm good with trying new things. just don't want to lose anything good we have in favor of the new21:44
thingee#topic Design Summit feedback21:44
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ttxHow did the event work for you ? Is there any change you'd like to make ?21:44
ttxWas any room crowded ?21:44
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notmynamesince this was shared in person, are we allowed to talk about it in the meeting? ;-)21:44
notmyname(just kidding!)21:45
bknudsonthere was a rumor that the workgroup rooms were going to be smaller but they were plenty big for us21:45
ttxThe main feedback I got outside of the design summit feedback session was that 5 days is much better than 4.21:45
smcginnisttx: +221:45
notmynamettx: yes!21:45
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ttx4 days with complete overlap makes it completely impossible for cross-project devs to attend the rest of the summit21:45
thingeenotmyname: communication was horrible in person, so yes ;D21:45
* thingee had trouble hearing people to take notes21:45
ttxI feel like the setup also failed to gets devs to ops sessions (and the other way around)21:45
Jokke_+1 for 5 days21:45
ttxdid you have ops in your devs sessions ? Did you make time to attend ops sessions ?21:46
docaedoI thought the venue was really beautiful, but did not like how spread out it was, and felt like I hardly ran into anyone (vs. Vancouver hallways where social aspect was awesome)21:46
dhellmannttx: yes, I wasn't able to attend some of the ops and product-wg sessions I wanted to participate in21:46
bknudsonwe did get a couple of ops in the keystone sessoins21:46
dhellmanndocaedo : ++21:46
fungidoing the feedback session during lunch likely resulted in poor participation (i wasn't there, at least!)21:46
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ttxyeah that was a bad idea21:46
notmynamewe had a specific ops feedback session for swift. it was lower attended than previous summits, but we got some good feedback. we had a few ops at some other sessions21:46
dhellmannfungi : yeah, I didn't know about that, I'm not sure where it was announced but I obviously missed it21:46
stevebakerI liked the one day of dedicated cross-project tracks21:46
bknudsonfungi: maybe if lunch was pizzas I'd show up.21:46
thingeeI was stretched way too thin and had to cancel attending most of the ops sessions.21:47
notmynamedocaedo: +100021:47
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Jokke_also Paris vs. Vancouver vs. Tokyo; Vancounver won clearly by having everything pretty well together ... Paris was badly spread out and I felt and heard many to complain that Tokyo was even more spread out21:47
docaedoI hate to knock it, because putting on a summit requires an absurd level of effort and you all do such a fantastic job :)  But please not again like that21:47
thingeestevebaker: +121:47
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docaedostevebaker: +121:47
ttxwas any room crowded ? I heard that this time around Neutron didn't fill their room21:48
fungidhellmann: i don't recall it being announced anywhere, and it was up to people noticing it on the schedule or word of mouth21:48
stevebakerif we went to 5 days, maybe a dedicated ops day, a dedicated x-project day, then 3 days of project-specific summits21:48
thingeeI still felt like cross project sessions weren't well attended21:48
dhellmannfungi : ah21:48
edleafestevebaker: +1 to xproj day21:48
persiaVancouver was in two buildings: perhaps some of us did not get to the other building as much, but let us not forget that when praising the hallway.21:48
docaedoroom size worked well, and all the sessions I was in seemed effective21:48
ttxFroday morning some rooms were pretty busy but that's beacsue people stayed around and came to leech wifi21:48
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smcginnisttx: Some of the Cinder ones got a little crowded the last day, but I still think the room should have been more than enough.21:48
dhellmannttx: our work session on friday was a bit awkward until we actually split up, but otherwise the rooms were sized well21:48
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bknudsonttx: there was a security session that a couple people had to stand21:48
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notmynamewe had pretty crowded working session rooms for swift21:49
fungiyeah, i couldn't tell how many of the infra/ironic and infra/qa/relmgmt sprinters were there as active participants and which were there to find a chair21:49
ttxWe had the same Friday effect than in Paris. People staying for the weekend and speding their Friday where light was still on21:49
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bknudsonwe had a few chairs break on us :(21:49
fungibut the workrooms for infra were pretty focused (far better than vancouver) even with similar or larger numbers of attendees21:50
stevebakerbknudson: stop throwing them21:50
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persiafungi: there were plenty of chairs elsewhere: folk in those rooms generally wanted to meetup on those broad topics.21:50
ttxok, that's good feedback. If you have more (or secret feedback) don't hesitate to send me an email21:50
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fungipersia: great! that was my hope21:50
notmynamettx: thanks for getting screens for the working rooms!21:51
bknudsonmaybe the size only worked because ops didn't walk over.21:51
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fungiit's hard to tell since a lot of people don't speak up, and with ptl duties it was hard for me to float and figure out everything people were collaborating on21:51
docaedottx: tables were too big/heavy, I tried to flip one in rage and only strained my back :/21:51
ttxscreens in working rooms... .useful ? not useful ?21:51
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notmynamescreens were useful21:51
fungiwe used them in most (all?) of our infra work sessions21:51
bknudsonwe didn't use the screens, we used the whiteboards21:51
angdraugnot having DP connectors was a problem for us thinkpad users21:52
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fungii also think the community messaging around work sessions and the sprint day must have penetrated better than last time21:52
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smcginnisangdraug: Agree. Most new laptops only have dp.21:52
lifelessone bit of feedback21:52
lifelessalso raied in the tc meeting21:52
PietDid anyone mention the inability to fit everyone into the same room for the keynotes?21:52
lifelesssome folk felt they couldn't contribute21:52
lifelessflaper87 is going to coordinate digging into that21:53
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thingeePiet: there were additional rooms designated for keynote attendees21:53
angdraugsome people actually preferred the overflow rooms for keynotes since they were less noisy21:53
notmynameIMO for swift I don't think "hiding" the work room topics does anything to prevent or encourage attendance. it only makes it slightly more difficult to find the right place to be when you want to "do swift"21:53
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persialifeless: do we know why?  Unlike other summits, nobody seemed to be checking ATC status, etc.21:53
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Pietthingee: Impacted the feeling of community having people in different rooms21:53
lifelesspersia: no; see the tc meeting logs for more detail21:54
dhellmannpersia : it was their impression either from in the room or from the organization of the event; I'm asking for more detail now that we're all home21:54
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fungias in cultural pressure preventing newcomers from speaking up, maybe?21:55
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thingeePiet: At the beginning we streamed on the big screen to show people in the other room and did a wave to them.. I agree it's a bummer, but I found a lot of things in japan were small and might've just been how all venues would've turned out.21:55
persiadhellman: I am very curious, as I felt non-ATCs were more welcomed to design stuff this time than in a country please years.21:55
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dhellmannpersia: good21:55
persias/country please/couple/21:55
lifelessor not enough reaching-out-to-folk from the coordinator21:56
lifelessthere are lots of possible things21:56
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angdraugfungi: ++21:56
angdraugin some meetings, it took a lot of courage to squeeze a word in edgewise21:57
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persiaThere are large venues in Japan, but they are ugly and industrial.21:57
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angdraugnot sure about leadership training, but meeting facilitation training could be of use21:57
dhellmannangdraug: ++21:57
thingee3 minute warning21:57
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fungii'm not really sure how to solve "people are afraid to speak up" but maybe that's something we don't underscore enough in the 101 session?21:58
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thingeeI used to be shy about talking... took some time to get over it21:58
fungii also know at least a few newcomers who i asked about the 101 session and none of them attended21:58
dhellmannfungi: someone did propose having moderators be more explicit about asking folks for input21:58
angdrauga well structured meeting with pauses goes a long way to encourage people to speak up21:58
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angdraugonce again I'd like to commend the way EmilienM ran his sessions21:59
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edleafeangdraug: most of the nova sessions had too many people speaking instead of pauses21:59
Pietthingee: Me too, it took forever to feel comfortable w IRC21:59
fungii will definitely make a point of attending one of EmilienM's sessions next time21:59
bknudsondid others find that 40 mins wasn't enough?21:59
lifelessangdraug: those things are perhaps related :)21:59
angdraugedleafe: good point, indicates nova needed more narrowly focused sessions )22:00
fungino amount of time is ever enough, in my experience22:00
notmynamewe did something new this time with the schedule22:00
thingeeok time is up...22:00
notmynamegroupd topics into session blocks22:00
bknudsonjust like 60 mins isn't enough for this meeting, I guess.22:00
edleafefungi: true22:00
notmynameworked well for us22:00
Jokke_bknudson: always, but at least flaper87 made great call and allocated more than 1 slot for the topics where that was expected22:00
thingeelets continue feedback in #openstack-dev?22:00
edleafebknudson: hah!22:00
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dhellmannnotmyname: good idea22:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov  3 22:00:47 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-11-03-21.01.html22:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-11-03-21.01.txt22:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-11-03-21.01.log.html22:00
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