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| yamamoto | hi | 07:00 |
|---|---|---|
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| * yamamoto waiting | 07:01 | |
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| ryu25 | hello | 07:02 |
| yamamoto | hi | 07:02 |
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| yamamoto | anyone else? | 07:02 |
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| yamamoto | let's wait for a few minutes | 07:03 |
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| yamamoto | hi joe | 07:04 |
| joe__ | Hi | 07:04 |
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| red_trela | hey | 07:05 |
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| yamamoto | hi | 07:05 |
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| yamamoto | let's start | 07:05 |
| yamamoto | #startmeeting networking_midonet | 07:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 07:05:24 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yamamoto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 07:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 07:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)" | 07:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking_midonet' | 07:05 |
| yamamoto | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NetworkingMidoNet agenda | 07:05 |
| yamamoto | not many items on agenda. this will be a short meeting i guess. | 07:06 |
| yamamoto | #topic Announcements | 07:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)" | 07:06 | |
| yamamoto | do anyone have announcements? | 07:06 |
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| yamamoto | we are past mitaka-1. we are not doing milestones though. | 07:07 |
| ryu25 | I wonder if we should | 07:07 |
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| red_trela | not sure it qualifies as an announcement, but: we now have gerritbot in #midonet for networking-midonet :) | 07:07 |
| yamamoto | red_trela: thank you for setting it up! | 07:07 |
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| ryu25 | red_trela: thanks! | 07:08 |
| yamamoto | #info we have gerritbot in #midonet for networking-midonet | 07:08 |
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| yamamoto | move on | 07:09 |
| ryu25 | no accouncement from me | 07:09 |
| yamamoto | #topic Bugs | 07:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)" | 07:09 | |
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| yamamoto | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/networking-midonet/ | 07:09 |
| yamamoto | the number of NEW bugs seems growing but still small | 07:10 |
| yamamoto | no urgent bugs afaik | 07:10 |
| ryu25 | looks completely manageable | 07:10 |
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| yamamoto | ryu25: i think you are going to set up bug deputy | 07:11 |
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| ryu25 | yamamoto: I set it up for midonet but I think it should be different for networking-midonet due to difficulty of doing both | 07:12 |
| ryu25 | so let's set one up for networking-midonet | 07:12 |
| yamamoto | i see | 07:12 |
| ryu25 | I would be more than happy to volunteer for the first week | 07:12 |
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| yamamoto | thank you! | 07:13 |
| ryu25 | yamamoto: currently there are not too many developers that are familiar with both projects, and they are tracked rather differently | 07:13 |
| ryu25 | though now that we are inching towards adopting more openstack-ways for midonet, this problem may go away | 07:13 |
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| yamamoto | i agree | 07:14 |
| irenab | yamahata: is this meeting for neutron midonet only or for midonet as well? | 07:14 |
| yamamoto | let's start from this week. | 07:14 |
| yamamoto | irenab: plugin only | 07:14 |
| ryu25 | irenab: networking-midonet only | 07:14 |
| irenab | ok | 07:14 |
| ryu25 | there will be a separate one for midonet later today | 07:14 |
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| ryu25 | yamamoto: I'm not sure what the best way to track the deputies. I suppose we can just update the meetings page like in Neutron | 07:15 |
| ryu25 | what do you think? | 07:15 |
| yamamoto | ryu25: i think it's fine. | 07:16 |
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| irenab | ryu25: +1 | 07:16 |
| yamamoto | #action yamamoto will create a bug deputy schedule on the meetings wiki | 07:17 |
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| red_trela | btw, did anyone follow the current neutron deputy discussion on the openstack-dev list? | 07:17 |
| yamamoto | #info bug deputy for the first week will be ryu25 | 07:17 |
| yamamoto | red_trela: how current? url? | 07:18 |
| red_trela | last week: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081132.html | 07:18 |
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| yamamoto | the summary of the thread is "the process is working well" afaik. | 07:19 |
| red_trela | alright then :) | 07:19 |
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| ryu25 | yeah i think generally people seem to be happy with the bug deputy process | 07:20 |
| yamamoto | anyone has a specific bug to discuss here? | 07:20 |
| ryu25 | no i have no comment on the bugs | 07:21 |
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| yamamoto | lets move on | 07:22 |
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| yamamoto | #topic Open Discussion | 07:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)" | 07:22 | |
| yamamoto | i have a question | 07:22 |
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| yamamoto | do we want rfe bug process similar neutron? | 07:22 |
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| irenab | yamamoto: I am not sure. I think having blueprint is enough | 07:23 |
| red_trela | since networking-midonet is part of Neutron, do we have a choice? | 07:23 |
| irenab | red_trela: what do you mean by part of neutron? | 07:24 |
| yamamoto | blueprints are not convenient for discussion. it's ok as far as a single company just decides the direction, though. | 07:24 |
| red_trela | in terms of governance | 07:24 |
| irenab | I think we do have a choice | 07:25 |
| ryu25 | in both processes, we still need drivers to agree on whether we accept them or not right? | 07:25 |
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| ryu25 | irenab: you prefer blueprint because it's less heavy? | 07:25 |
| irenab | ryu25: yes | 07:26 |
| irenab | less steps in the process | 07:26 |
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| irenab | neutron proccesses still evolve | 07:27 |
| yamamoto | probably "drivers" thing is more appropriate for midonet meeting, not this meeting. | 07:27 |
| irenab | lets keep with waht works well for networking-midonet | 07:27 |
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| red_trela | isn't the purpose of the new RFE approach, that the discussion can happen very early in the process, while the blueprint approach requires quite some upfront work that might be lost if it's not accepted or needs considerable change? | 07:28 |
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| red_trela | Also, can't they co-exist? if you want an early opinion or look for more helping hands, go with an RFE. Otherwise, with a blueprint. | 07:29 |
| irenab | red_trela: spec will require more work, blueprint at launchpad is short desctiption | 07:29 |
| ryu25 | so the extra step in the RFE process is the evaluation of the initial request? | 07:30 |
| red_trela | ah, I thought it was the other way around...sorry for the noise :) | 07:30 |
| irenab | I think we should have policies defined, so contributors will be aware of the procedures. Any process can be adopted. | 07:30 |
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| irenab | lets be agile and improve the process if it does not work well | 07:31 |
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| yamamoto | irenab: do you mean to document the current procedure? | 07:32 |
| ryu25 | i can go either way. Why not just adopt what neutron is doing then? (RFE) | 07:32 |
| irenab | yamamoto: yes, something like neutron having policies defined in the source tree | 07:32 |
| yamamoto | irenab: do you volunteer? | 07:32 |
| irenab | yamamoto: I do not mind. | 07:33 |
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| irenab | please add action for me to do so | 07:33 |
| yamamoto | i tend to think it's simpler to adapt neutron policies but i'm fine with either ways as far as someone volunteer to document. | 07:34 |
| yamamoto | #action irenab document the current procedure/policy for new features | 07:35 |
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| yamamoto | irenab: thank you! | 07:35 |
| irenab | yamamoto: :-). I want to check similar projects, so be aligned with other vendor plugins | 07:35 |
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| red_trela | we should probably revisit this in 6 months or so, see how the new process is working for Neutron | 07:37 |
| yamamoto | irenab: good idea. i've heard odl has some procedure. | 07:37 |
| irenab | red_trela: I would even do it earlier | 07:37 |
| irenab | red_trela: by the end of Mitaka | 07:37 |
| yamamoto | +1 earlier, 6 months sound too long | 07:37 |
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| irenab | yamamoto: thanks, will check with odl | 07:38 |
| yamamoto | it seems we finished agenda items. does anyone has anything more to discuss? | 07:38 |
| red_trela | "6 months" was more of a random term anyway...I was just thinking that they might do a retrospect after Mitaka which we could use as a base | 07:39 |
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| red_trela | yes, one thing - once MidoNet is part of OpenStack (i.e. an accepted project), should we move networking-midonet from Neutron to MidoNet, governance wise? | 07:39 |
| red_trela | we'll probably also have to see what the Neutron folks think about this, if we want to move | 07:40 |
| yamamoto | red_trela: i'm not sure. can't we belong to the both? | 07:40 |
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| red_trela | no | 07:41 |
| ryu25 | red_trela: I'm not sure if that will make sense since it's more tightly coupled with neutron for things like release cycles | 07:41 |
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| apuimedo | \o/ | 07:41 |
| ryu25 | apuimedo: hello | 07:41 |
| apuimedo | sorry that I'm late | 07:41 |
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| apuimedo | where are we on getting the plugin packages on distros? | 07:42 |
| apuimedo | rdo and Ubuntu cloud archives | 07:42 |
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| red_trela | ryu25: yea, that's what I thought - just been wondering whether people maybe think that it's the same people, so it should be governed together | 07:42 |
| red_trela | but I'm fine with leaving it as-is :) | 07:42 |
| ryu25 | i definitely wouldn't mind consolidating if it makes sense | 07:43 |
| ryu25 | but i don't think it makes sense at this moment | 07:43 |
| yamamoto | ryu25: +1 | 07:43 |
| red_trela | got it | 07:43 |
| ryu25 | red_trela: let's see how it goes running two separate projects. We may feel differently later | 07:44 |
| red_trela | sure | 07:44 |
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| ryu25 | nothing more from me | 07:45 |
| yamamoto | apuimedo: i have no idea about packaging | 07:46 |
| apuimedo | ryu25: ^^ | 07:46 |
| ryu25 | i thought apuimedo answered his own question | 07:46 |
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| red_trela | maybe apuimedo needs to clarify the question | 07:50 |
| apuimedo | I'll send to ml | 07:51 |
| apuimedo | sorry ;P | 07:51 |
| yamamoto | np | 07:51 |
| yamamoto | see you later on the midonet meeting | 07:51 |
| apuimedo | 3 | 07:51 |
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| yamamoto | #endmeeting | 07:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 07:52 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 07:52:09 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 07:52 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2015/networking_midonet.2015-12-08-07.05.html | 07:52 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2015/networking_midonet.2015-12-08-07.05.txt | 07:52 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2015/networking_midonet.2015-12-08-07.05.log.html | 07:52 |
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| ryu25 | yamamoto: thanks you! | 07:53 |
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| red_trela | yea, thanks yamamoto and everyone | 07:53 |
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| irenab | thnaks guys | 07:53 |
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| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 08:00:16 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:00 |
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| anteaya | hello | 08:01 |
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| lennyb_ | anteaya: Hi | 08:01 |
| anteaya | how are you lennyb_ | 08:01 |
| lennyb_ | thanks, how are you nowdays? | 08:01 |
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| anteaya | good thank you | 08:01 |
| anteaya | you saw the links I posted at yesterday's meeting, yes? | 08:02 |
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| lennyb_ | not yet, | 08:02 |
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| anteaya | you were at yesterday's meeting were you not? | 08:04 |
| lennyb_ | yes | 08:04 |
| lennyb_ | I just didnt have much time to look at them | 08:05 |
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| anteaya | oh okay | 08:05 |
| anteaya | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081527.html | 08:05 |
| anteaya | that is a post about documentation changes for neutron drivers | 08:06 |
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| anteaya | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/080867.html | 08:06 |
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| anteaya | and that is a mailing list thread that folks setting up third party ci for ironic should read | 08:06 |
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| lennyb_ | great, thanks, but Ironic is currently irrelevant for us | 08:08 |
| anteaya | right | 08:08 |
| anteaya | but those are the links I posted in yesterday's meeting | 08:08 |
| anteaya | so I posted them again in this meeting for consistentcy | 08:08 |
| anteaya | make sense? | 08:09 |
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| lennyb_ | I've also sent email asking permission for voting for our Nova CI, but this is for email thread and not this chat | 08:09 |
| anteaya | great | 08:09 |
| anteaya | yes I saw | 08:09 |
| anteaya | I hope you have a good discussion | 08:09 |
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| anteaya | do you have anything to discuss today? | 08:10 |
| lennyb_ | me too. And your consistency is very helpful | 08:10 |
| anteaya | thank you | 08:10 |
| anteaya | that is kind of you to say | 08:10 |
| lennyb_ | not really. | 08:10 |
| anteaya | okay | 08:10 |
| lennyb_ | have a good rest of the night... I guess | 08:11 |
| anteaya | thanks you too | 08:11 |
| anteaya | any objection to me closing the meeting? | 08:11 |
| lennyb_ | noop | 08:11 |
| anteaya | okay thanks lennyb_ | 08:11 |
| lennyb_ | u2 | 08:12 |
| anteaya | I appreciate you being here | 08:12 |
| anteaya | see you next week | 08:12 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 08:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 08:12 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 08:12:14 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:12 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-08.00.html | 08:12 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-08.00.txt | 08:12 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-08.00.log.html | 08:12 |
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| ryu25 | hi, midonet meeting is about to start | 08:59 |
| yamamoto | hi | 08:59 |
| ryu25 | yamamoto: hi again! | 08:59 |
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| ryu25 | hello Brandon_Berg | 09:00 |
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| jfjoly | Hi everyone! | 09:01 |
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| red_trela | hello again | 09:01 |
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| ryu25 | jfjoly: red_trela: hi! | 09:01 |
| ryu25 | let me see if I can manage an openstack meeting as well as yamamoto did | 09:02 |
| ryu25 | #startmeeting midonet | 09:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 09:02:29 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ryu25. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 09:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 09:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: midonet)" | 09:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'midonet' | 09:02 |
| ryu25 | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/MidoNet agenda | 09:03 |
| ryu25 | #topic Announcements | 09:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: midonet)" | 09:03 | |
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| ryu25 | The first announcement I have is that I have created a Launchpad page for midonet | 09:04 |
| ryu25 | #link https://launchpad.net/midonet | 09:04 |
| ryu25 | Still need to fill in the details, but with help rom red_trela, it's getting there | 09:04 |
| ryu25 | it's not done yet, so for now, we will continue to file bugs against JIRA | 09:05 |
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| red_trela | what's missing at this point? | 09:05 |
| ryu25 | but I am hoping that we can start migrating all the bugs from JIRA to LP in January... | 09:05 |
| ryu25 | red_trela: I think we just need to start moving the existing bugs around in one shot | 09:06 |
| ryu25 | to avoid having yet another place to look for bugs | 09:06 |
| red_trela | got it | 09:06 |
| yamamoto | are we going to do "mitaka", aligning with the rest of openstack? | 09:06 |
| yamamoto | https://launchpad.net/midonet/mitaka | 09:06 |
| ryu25 | yamamoto: good question, I originally thought so but I was told by thierry that we don't necessary follow the OpenStack releases | 09:07 |
| ryu25 | I personally think it will be much easier to just follow it | 09:08 |
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| ryu25 | I will ask in the ML | 09:08 |
| ryu25 | i think the discussion belongs there | 09:08 |
| red_trela | I think we should still do "mitaka", but with our own schedule (which is allowed and pretty common ever since the big tent was introduced) | 09:08 |
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| red_trela | right, let's discuss it on the ml | 09:08 |
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| ryu25 | red_trela: it seems pretty confusing to call it mitaka but yet release completely separately from the rest of the mitaka OpenStack projects | 09:09 |
| ryu25 | anyway, let's disscuss in ML | 09:09 |
| jfjoly | We can do releases in between and decide which one is for Mitaka. | 09:09 |
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| ryu25 | #action ryu25 ask in ML about the midonet release cycle and versioning | 09:10 |
| ryu25 | jfjoly: we can do milestones | 09:11 |
| red_trela | other announcements? ;) | 09:11 |
| ryu25 | anyone? | 09:12 |
| red_trela | so, #midonet is now an official OpenStack channel | 09:12 |
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| ryu25 | red_trela: so no more #midonet-dev then? Just #midonet, right? | 09:13 |
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| red_trela | and eavesdrop (OpenStack logging facility) should be added soon - pending +A from openstack infra | 09:13 |
| red_trela | ryu25: right | 09:13 |
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| red_trela | we also got gerritbot, but as our repos are not yet on OpenStack infra, it only just notifies about networking-midonet yet. | 09:14 |
| ryu25 | #info midonet-dev irc chnanel is replaced by midonet | 09:14 |
| red_trela | and we'll get statusbot, which is used by the openstack (infra) folks to share some important information, like "gate it broken, don't +A anything" | 09:14 |
| ryu25 | very cool! | 09:15 |
| yamamoto | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252172/ | 09:15 |
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| red_trela | well, cool once we use the gate and other infra ;) | 09:15 |
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| ryu25 | any other announcement? | 09:16 |
| red_trela | not sure whether we also get meetbot, which would be cool for an irregular meeting, I guess...will try to have it added as well | 09:16 |
| ryu25 | one last announcement from me - v5.1 is scheduled to have an RC in the beginning of January. | 09:17 |
| ryu25 | jfjoly: please correct me if I'm wrong on that | 09:17 |
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| jfjoly | ryu25: That's correct 😃 | 09:18 |
| red_trela | don't forget to update the release schedule in the wiki, please | 09:19 |
| jfjoly | red_trela: thanks good point | 09:19 |
| yamamoto | which wiki? i thought we are moving to launchpad :-) | 09:19 |
| ryu25 | #info midonet v5.1 RC scheduled the first half of Janurary | 09:20 |
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| red_trela | I guess that's one of the parts that's not ready yet...but right, release schedules go to launchpad as well I guess | 09:20 |
| jfjoly | yamamoto: we can update both , that's a different audience. | 09:21 |
| red_trela | but launchpad doesn't completely replace having a wiki ;) | 09:21 |
| red_trela | we'll probably move to the OpenStack wiki, though | 09:21 |
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| ryu25 | any more announcement? | 09:21 |
| red_trela | guess that we moved to openstack-dev ml is old news by now :) | 09:22 |
| ryu25 | red_trela, still good to be reminded, thanks | 09:22 |
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| ryu25 | #topic Bugs | 09:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: midonet)" | 09:23 | |
| ryu25 | it might be blasphemous to post a link to JIRA in this channel but that's all we have at this moment | 09:24 |
| ryu25 | #link #link https://midonet.atlassian.net/browse/MNA-1112?jql=project%20%3D%20MidoNet%20AND%20priority%20%3D%20Major%20and%20issuetype%20%3D%20Bug%20AND%20status%20in%20(Proposed%2C%20Reopened)%20ORDER%20BY%20createdDate%20Desc%2C%20priority%20Desc | 09:24 |
| ryu25 | sorry i double linked | 09:25 |
| ryu25 | #link https://midonet.atlassian.net/browse/MNA-1112?jql=project%20%3D%20MidoNet%20AND%20priority%20%3D%20Major%20and%20issuetype%20%3D%20Bug%20AND%20status%20in%20(Proposed%2C%20Reopened)%20ORDER%20BY%20createdDate%20Desc%2C%20priority%20Desc | 09:25 |
| ryu25 | this is the list of bugs marked as major that we have currently | 09:25 |
| ryu25 | no Critical bug | 09:25 |
| red_trela | that links brings me to MNA-1112, not to a list | 09:26 |
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| red_trela | oh, wait | 09:26 |
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| ryu25 | red_trela: supposed to search | 09:26 |
| ryu25 | filter the bugs | 09:26 |
| red_trela | looks like my console doesn't like the link | 09:26 |
| red_trela | too long :P | 09:26 |
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| red_trela | works now ;) | 09:27 |
| ryu25 | sorry i knew JIRA gets discriminated here | 09:27 |
| ryu25 | nothing urgent on this list except that I think most of these should be fixed for v5.1 | 09:27 |
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| ryu25 | anyone has any comment on these bugs? | 09:28 |
| ryu25 | I wanted to try out the Bug Deputy process of Neutron in midonet, so I volunteered myself last week to see how that goes | 09:29 |
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| ryu25 | and the experience was quite good, and very educational | 09:29 |
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| ryu25 | i got to clean up a lot too, by removing duplicates and invalid ones | 09:30 |
| red_trela | the cleaner the better to move to launchpad ;) | 09:31 |
| ryu25 | i think it's a good idea to continue, and kitsuneninetails has already kindly volunteered to take on this role for this week | 09:31 |
| ryu25 | i will work with him on this process since we're all new to it | 09:31 |
| red_trela | awesome | 09:31 |
| ryu25 | I will update the meeting wiki page with the deputy schedule | 09:32 |
| ryu25 | and a brief summary of the bugs reported last week | 09:32 |
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| ryu25 | #info kitsuneninetails is the next bug deputy | 09:33 |
| ryu25 | #action ryu25 update meeting wiki with bug deputy sched and bug summary for last week | 09:33 |
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| ryu25 | there is no bug that requires any special attention, so going to move on. feel free to stop me if you want to discuss the bugs further | 09:35 |
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| ryu25 | #topic Open Discussion | 09:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: midonet)" | 09:36 | |
| ryu25 | for feature proposal in midonet, i would like to follow the RFE process practiced in Neutron. anyone has opinions on this? | 09:38 |
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| ryu25 | I will ask in ml also | 09:39 |
| yamamoto | ryu25: do you mean to have a separate drivers meeting or do it here? | 09:39 |
| red_trela | I think sticking to Neutron's best practices is always a good idea :) | 09:40 |
| ryu25 | yamamoto: I don't know actually, I'm thinking a separate meeting | 09:41 |
| ryu25 | but that might be too heavy | 09:41 |
| ryu25 | but i guess the process is to simply create a bug reporing what you want to implement | 09:41 |
| ryu25 | and we can go over them here to start | 09:41 |
| red_trela | not sure there's enough time, but can't hurt to try | 09:42 |
| ryu25 | right, we'll adjust as we go | 09:42 |
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| ryu25 | #action ryu25 start a conversation about feature proposal in ML | 09:43 |
| ryu25 | red_trela, you might be the best preson to answer this, but I would like to know a bit more about migrating midonet to the OpenStack infra | 09:44 |
| red_trela | big question | 09:44 |
| red_trela | and not one I'm prepared to answer right now, so I might be forgetting things | 09:45 |
| ryu25 | i see a lot of value in doing that, but i also see a lot of unknowns... | 09:45 |
| red_trela | anything specific? | 09:45 |
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| red_trela | maybe I know the answers, otherwise I need to find them :) | 09:45 |
| ryu25 | no, it's a big topic so let's discuss elsewhere | 09:45 |
| red_trela | okay | 09:46 |
| red_trela | feel free to ask me in #midonet or on openstack-dev ml with anything that is not clear in this regard :) | 09:47 |
| yamamoto | red_trela: are there todos somewhere? | 09:47 |
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| red_trela | yamamoto: no, I should probably put them in the wiki or something - I did everything so far, but there's a few steps that I will certainly need help with | 09:48 |
| red_trela | I already brought up one or two things on the mailing list | 09:48 |
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| ryu25 | red_trela: organizing it in one place will be useful, i think | 09:48 |
| ryu25 | for everyone to start helping out in the process | 09:49 |
| red_trela | sure | 09:49 |
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| red_trela | well, for now, I need people help with decisions (see ml) - and then to implement those :) | 09:49 |
| red_trela | but yes, will do | 09:50 |
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| ryu25 | #action red_trela create a doc (wiki, lp,...) to organize and share the process for the move to openstack infra | 09:51 |
| ryu25 | red_trela: sure, let's work together on it | 09:51 |
| red_trela | the trickiest one will be the migration to Gerrit, as we can't migrate/import (unmerged) review requests | 09:51 |
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| red_trela | so people probably need to re-open them, i.e. we want to first merge as many as possible, I guess | 09:52 |
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| ryu25 | right, we can't have them co-exist pointing to the same code base | 09:53 |
| ryu25 | ok interesting, that's something we can discuss in the community | 09:53 |
| ryu25 | red_trela also started a thread today about moving PMC out of midonet | 09:53 |
| ryu25 | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081693.html | 09:54 |
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| ryu25 | with the original discussion started by yamamoto | 09:55 |
| ryu25 | i'm +1 on this idea | 09:55 |
| yamamoto | do you have any idea why it's put in the current structure? | 09:55 |
| ryu25 | for ease of maintenance | 09:55 |
| red_trela | right, this might actually be required by OpenStack (release management) - and I'm sure downstream distributions would appreciate it as well, as the expect a 1:1 tarball to package mapping | 09:55 |
| ryu25 | managing releases together for example | 09:56 |
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| red_trela | and we might have to put the midonet-cli into yet another repo as it uses a different license (GPLv3) | 09:56 |
| red_trela | I'll bring that up as a separate discussion, though | 09:57 |
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| red_trela | need to make sure it's really required first | 09:57 |
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| ryu25 | as for PMC, let's see what others say on this. I know we have differing opinions | 09:57 |
| red_trela | indeed | 09:58 |
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| yamamoto | ryu25: so currently pmc is incompatible with different versions of midonet? | 09:58 |
| red_trela | I wonder, if we want to put PMC on pypi, does it need to be a separate repo? Because pypi is another requirement by OpenStack. | 09:58 |
| ryu25 | yamamoto: not necessarily so, though I cannot say for sure to which version it is compatible with | 09:59 |
| ryu25 | now that it has been merged into midonet for a while | 09:59 |
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| red_trela | okay, I think we need to finish here as our reserved time slot is over :) | 09:59 |
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| ryu25 | red_trela: afaik yes, which is why we mirror it to a different PMC repo (yuck) | 09:59 |
| ryu25 | ok ending the meeting, thanks everyone! | 10:00 |
| yamamoto | bye | 10:00 |
| ryu25 | #endmeeting | 10:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 10:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 10:00:09 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 10:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/midonet/2015/midonet.2015-12-08-09.02.html | 10:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/midonet/2015/midonet.2015-12-08-09.02.txt | 10:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/midonet/2015/midonet.2015-12-08-09.02.log.html | 10:00 |
| red_trela | thanks ryu25 and everyone :) | 10:00 |
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| jfjoly | Thanks! | 10:00 |
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| alex_xu | #startmeeting nova api | 12:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 12:00:08 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is alex_xu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 12:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 12:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_api' | 12:00 |
| alex_xu | who is here today? | 12:00 |
| gmann_ | hi | 12:00 |
| jichen | o/ | 12:00 |
| sdague | morning | 12:00 |
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| alex_xu | morning/evening everyone | 12:02 |
| alex_xu | we probably have short meeting today, as today is api doc sprint! | 12:02 |
| alex_xu | #topic actions from last meeting | 12:02 |
| alex_xu | we didn't have any action from prevous meeting | 12:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:02 | |
| johnthetubaguy | cools | 12:02 |
| cdent | o/ | 12:02 |
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| alex_xu | only thing is, sdague do you have any update for api ref approve permission? | 12:02 |
| oomichi | hi | 12:02 |
| sdague | alex_xu: I don't yet | 12:02 |
| alex_xu | sdague: ok, it's fine, without that, it still works for us | 12:03 |
| alex_xu | #topic doc sprint | 12:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "doc sprint (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:03 | |
| sdague | I told anne that I'd like the nova cores that do API work to be in an approve group for that, so me, johnthetubaguy, alex_xu, oomichi | 12:03 |
| sdague | she seemed ok with it, but it hasn't yet materialized | 12:03 |
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| alex_xu | we have some patch up for concept doc | 12:04 |
| alex_xu | #link #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:bp/complete-todo-in-api-concept-doc,n,z | 12:04 |
| alex_xu | oops | 12:04 |
| alex_xu | sdague: johnthetubaguy would you like take a look few of patches from me, it adds more todos, I think it is useful for people looking for tasks | 12:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: looking at them now actually | 12:05 |
| sdague | alex_xu: sure, can do, I meant to start going through these yesterday, but fell down a rabbit hole with unwinding our glance configuration | 12:05 |
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| alex_xu | and gmann_ create a topic for api-ref, it will be great people use same topic | 12:06 |
| alex_xu | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/api-site+branch:master+topic:fix-compute-api-ref,n,z | 12:06 |
| alex_xu | am i still online, looks like super quiet... | 12:06 |
| sdague | yep, still online | 12:06 |
| cdent | I see you | 12:06 |
| alex_xu | jichen: oomichi gmann_ sdague any response? | 12:07 |
| oomichi | related to this api-ref, I sent a mail about http203 | 12:07 |
| oomichi | to openstack-dev | 12:07 |
| sdague | oomichi: link? | 12:07 |
| oomichi | ok, | 12:07 |
| gmann_ | yea 203 needs to be discussed | 12:07 |
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| oomichi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081690.html | 12:08 |
| oomichi | that is | 12:08 |
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| oomichi | api-site contains a lot of 203 as valid code | 12:08 |
| gmann_ | sdague: oomichi yea but for some API not all | 12:09 |
| alex_xu | oops, I have huge delay for message | 12:09 |
| gmann_ | we may need to define that at upper level if that is valid one | 12:09 |
| sdague | honestly, it seems weird | 12:09 |
| oomichi | sdague: someone tried to add 203 as valid code to tempest before | 12:10 |
| sdague | oomichi: do you have that patch? | 12:10 |
| gmann_ | there are some discussion over patches - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254483/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/242901/ | 12:10 |
| oomichi | I cannot find it now, too old | 12:10 |
| sdague | were they doing it because it was in the doc? or do they have a real reason | 12:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | well we have to start with documenting what we have, I suspect we will find lots of odd things during this process | 12:10 |
| gmann_ | sdague: ^^ | 12:10 |
| oomichi | sdague: because of the doc | 12:10 |
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| johnthetubaguy | because of the doc... arg | 12:10 |
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| gmann_ | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/242901/ | 12:11 |
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| * cdent can't imagine a situation where _application_ code should be generating 203 | 12:11 | |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: is this a repose thing? | 12:11 |
| gmann_ | that is not what any API returns its manipulated from proxy thing actually | 12:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | so lets back up a bit, is it possible to get 203 in the code? | 12:12 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: no, it is not | 12:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: its possible, not sure how it got in the docs though | 12:12 |
| sdague | 203 can't be generated by the code today | 12:12 |
| gmann_ | yea | 12:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | right, lets just drop that form the API description then | 12:12 |
| sdague | so I feel like it should be removed from the docs | 12:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 12:12 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: agreed | 12:12 |
| * cdent nods | 12:12 | |
| johnthetubaguy | the concept of having two success codes for an API call just freaks me out | 12:13 |
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| jichen | +1 I tried to submit one but someone told me it's added by Annta, let me try to search the history | 12:13 |
| sdague | yep | 12:13 |
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| oomichi | sdague: I see | 12:14 |
| alex_xu | +1 remove it | 12:14 |
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| sdague | I suspect it has to do with the rax setup, but it's fine that we separate what OpenStack expects to be true, and any particular vendor setup | 12:14 |
| gmann_ | yea +1 to remove | 12:14 |
| oomichi | can we discuss this on -dev for getting a consensus from wide area including doc team? | 12:15 |
| sdague | oomichi: sure, or on the review | 12:15 |
| sdague | I explained why I think it should go in my +1 | 12:15 |
| oomichi | sdague: thanks :) | 12:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, totally should not include any vendor specifics in our API docs | 12:16 |
| alex_xu | one more question for me, when i look at version section in concept doc | 12:16 |
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| alex_xu | we have '/v1.1' endpoint, but we won't return '1.1' api in the version API | 12:17 |
| alex_xu | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254687/2/api-guide/source/versions.rst | 12:17 |
| alex_xu | I just send a patch, the current response from the version API just include 2.0 and 2.1 | 12:17 |
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| oomichi | alex_xu: because /v1.1 is just alias | 12:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | its not been in there long enough that I am not worried about it, I guess. Although that sure makes it harder to remove/detect | 12:18 |
| alex_xu | oomichi: ok, alias make sense | 12:18 |
| alex_xu | ok, if no worry, just move on | 12:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | in a related area, I just put a -1 on here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254473/ | 12:19 |
| jichen | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/246297/1/api-ref/src/wadls/compute-api/src/v2.1/wadl/images-v2.1.wadl | 12:19 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: I thought we were going to drop the /v1.1 in the default paste? | 12:19 |
| jichen | alex_xu: is the one I mentioned for the 203 return code | 12:19 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I didn't think we could, as its always been there | 12:19 |
| sdague | so, I know of no one, and no tests using it | 12:20 |
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| sdague | I would really like to do whatever is required to deprecate and phase it out | 12:20 |
| sdague | at least in our defaults | 12:20 |
| oomichi | johnthetubaguy: that is because mentioning later "v2.0" | 12:20 |
| sdague | because vendors can add it back | 12:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: sure, but it feels like so little cost to keep it, seems bad to break backwards compatibility | 12:21 |
| alex_xu | jichen: emm, I didn't get the comment, the 203 for some purpose? | 12:21 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: how many rax users hit it? | 12:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | oomichi: OK, probably need to phrase it differently | 12:21 |
| sdague | brb | 12:21 |
| oomichi | johnthetubaguy: the endpoint seemed to imply "v2.0" as the endpoint, but I removed the "v2.0" on the patch. then I added it. | 12:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I don't know actually, thats a good question | 12:21 |
| jichen | alex_xu: - Anne Gentle updated all these to separate out the 203 return code for the purposes of migration to RST, I don't know what's RST, I thought it might be history related | 12:22 |
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| johnthetubaguy | oomichi: added an alternative way of phrasing that in the patch, to see if that helps | 12:23 |
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| oomichi | johnthetubaguy: sorry, difficult to get your comment for me. | 12:24 |
| oomichi | johnthetubaguy: nice to clarify what is v2.0 separately in the doc, right? | 12:24 |
| alex_xu | jichen: from the title of your patch, it is going to remove 203 response. So I guess that comment isn't related we should keep 203 as valid return code. | 12:25 |
| sdague | the thing is, v1.1 hasn't been returned in our version discover for years | 12:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | oomichi: added a new comment in the review for a new way to word that | 12:25 |
| sdague | when we say remove, what we're saying is removing 1 paste pipeline line so that new installs don't get this | 12:25 |
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| oomichi | johnthetubaguy: ok, thanks! | 12:25 |
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| sdague | https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/7c02bde804434dfd769fdaf7fb6d1ccbcb946d66/etc/nova/api-paste.ini#L78 | 12:26 |
| jichen | alex_xu: oops, I misunderstanding it .. | 12:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: we are also saying we break users that wrote scripts against the version that only had the /v1.1 endpoint present | 12:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: but thats long enough ago, I would not block that | 12:26 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: no, we actually aren't | 12:27 |
| sdague | because existing clouds typically don't blindly blast over their paste.ini | 12:27 |
| alex_xu | emm..sounds good pint | 12:27 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: also, if we believe v1.1 is a thing, it should be in our version list | 12:27 |
| alex_xu | s/pint/point | 12:27 |
| sdague | GET / | 12:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: true | 12:27 |
| sdague | which it is not, and has not been for 3 years? | 12:28 |
| alex_xu | yes, that is a little strange | 12:28 |
| sdague | so, that makes me believe it is not a thing | 12:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I don't want to add it in there | 12:28 |
| cdent | sdague++ | 12:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | so probably easiest to just drop v1.1 | 12:28 |
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| sdague | then we should remove it, and reno the fact that we're doing this, and what a site should do if they want to keep it locally | 12:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | we could call that three year deprecation window or something, if it makes us feel happier about that | 12:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | yup | 12:29 |
| alex_xu | should we have mail to operator-ML before we remove | 12:29 |
| sdague | you can sign me up for that, I'll make the patch today | 12:29 |
| oomichi | nice to drop v1.1, and that is a nice step before droping v2.0 | 12:29 |
| sdague | oomichi: dropping v2.0 is not on the table any time soon | 12:29 |
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| sdague | or possibly ever | 12:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | we should inform the operators, not sure we should give them the option | 12:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | oomichi: yeah, I can't see me ever not -2ing /v2.0 removal | 12:30 |
| oomichi | sdague: yeah, I know in short-term | 12:30 |
| sdague | yeh, lets land the patch and FYI it to the ops | 12:30 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 12:30 |
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| alex_xu | #action sdague make a patch for remove 1.1 and info the ops | 12:30 |
| sdague | thanks alex_xu, was about to record that myself :) | 12:31 |
| alex_xu | sdague: :) | 12:31 |
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| alex_xu | ok, so let's move on? | 12:31 |
| sdague | yep | 12:31 |
| alex_xu | any more question about sprint? | 12:31 |
| alex_xu | ok, move on | 12:31 |
| sdague | alex_xu: is it worth updating the nova-spec dashboard in gerrit dash creator with the topics you want reviewed? | 12:32 |
| sdague | or making another dashboard for this? | 12:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | its in the review etherpad at least | 12:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-nova-priorities-tracking | 12:32 |
| alex_xu | sdague: I think it's fine, we just have one topic for concept doc and one topic for api-ref | 12:33 |
| sdague | yeh, I just find the dashboards easier because they typically have NOT label:Code-Review>=-2,self | 12:33 |
| sdague | which means you know all the ones you don't have an active vote on | 12:33 |
| sdague | so you can use it as a todo list | 12:33 |
| sdague | anyway, just a thought, lets move on | 12:34 |
| alex_xu | ok | 12:34 |
| alex_xu | #topic API futures - specs | 12:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "API futures - specs (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:35 | |
| alex_xu | #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/mitaka/approved/live-migration-progress-report.html | 12:35 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: ^ your turn | 12:35 |
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| alex_xu | emm...did I get network slow again? | 12:36 |
| jichen | no, I see you :) | 12:36 |
| alex_xu | ok :) | 12:36 |
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| gmann__ | alex_xu: yea you are fine :) | 12:36 |
| * edleafe yawns | 12:36 | |
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| oomichi | yeah, I can see alex_xu | 12:36 |
| alex_xu | sdague: ^ do you know the detail about that? | 12:37 |
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| * alex_xu pokes edleafe avoid him get sleep | 12:37 | |
| alex_xu | if they are no response, let us jump to the open, maybe they will be back after few minutes | 12:38 |
| sdague | I think the issue is that we did all this conversation about using the servers/{id}/migrations/{id} for pause | 12:38 |
| sdague | and that is the resource that should be used for status | 12:38 |
| sdague | instead of a global lookup resource | 12:39 |
| * edleafe thanks alex_xu | 12:39 | |
| alex_xu | sdague: so the servers/{id}/migrations/{id} is totally different resource with /migrations? | 12:39 |
| sdague | yes | 12:39 |
| sdague | which does not yet exist | 12:39 |
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| alex_xu | what is for /migrations in the future? | 12:40 |
| sdague | but johnthetubaguy didn't want to further expand /migrations | 12:40 |
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| sdague | good question, and I'm not sure, but the future here should be per server | 12:40 |
| sdague | because a migration is about a server | 12:40 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I think we drop /migrations in a later microversion | 12:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | once the per-server stuff works better | 12:41 |
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| johnthetubaguy | or just make it a cross server list for admins, so you query by host | 12:41 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: if we drop /migrations, we are missing a function for query old migration? | 12:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | but anyways, feels like we should really add that stuff in the new place for now | 12:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: yeah, maybe thats what we keep it for then, the admin use caess | 12:42 |
| gmann__ | johnthetubaguy: sdague alex_xu yea how we will get history data for migration | 12:42 |
| gmann__ | because that helpfull if any migration has not completed or failed | 12:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyways, just feels like this data would fit better on the per server active migrations, than it does after the migrations have finishished | 12:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | the progress info | 12:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | also, it doesn't seem to be clear on live-migrate vs migrate, and what happens when info is not available, but I may have just missed that. | 12:43 |
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| oomichi | imaging use case: when migrating servers, they want to make some host free. is it nice to get the migrating servers with secific *source host* ? | 12:44 |
| sdague | I think /migrations is a thing that goes away should we get a tasks interface | 12:44 |
| sdague | because migrations are always going to be outstanding tasks | 12:44 |
| sdague | and that would be the way you seach for them | 12:44 |
| alex_xu | I'm a little prefer to keep same view for two resources, different view will make user confused. for keep same view, we also can remove the /migration directly in the future | 12:44 |
| sdague | servers/{id}/migrations/{id} is the specific migration | 12:45 |
| oomichi | I am imaging we can do that on /migrations | 12:45 |
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| sdague | alex_xu: no, we don't want /migrations format extended | 12:45 |
| sdague | that can be the list to get links to servers/{id}/migrations/{id} | 12:45 |
| alex_xu | sdague: that is for people won't continue depend on the old /migrations? | 12:46 |
| sdague | I think we need to just consider that /migrations is the existing search interface | 12:46 |
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| sdague | and that's what it is, search | 12:46 |
| sdague | with more info at the new resource | 12:47 |
| sdague | so the only thing that should extend about it is each migration should include a link to the new migration resource | 12:47 |
| oomichi | nice to extend new resource with using /migrations for searching | 12:48 |
| gmann__ | sdague: or just migration id list | 12:48 |
| alex_xu | sdague: what is the purpose of the link? | 12:48 |
| sdague | gmann__: I think the existing info is fine | 12:48 |
| sdague | alex_xu: so that you can get all those details | 12:48 |
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| sdague | or cancel it | 12:49 |
| sdague | the whole theory of the API is you have collection resources like /servers /migrations /images that you can search on | 12:49 |
| alex_xu | sdague: ok | 12:49 |
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| sdague | that provide links to things you operate on | 12:49 |
| sdague | or get more details with | 12:49 |
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| sdague | so that all the resources are discoverable via link following | 12:50 |
| alex_xu | ok, so that will be N release work? | 12:50 |
| gmann__ | yea sounds standard way. | 12:50 |
| sdague | alex_xu: no, this has to be for M | 12:51 |
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| sdague | because there are 2 specs approved to change migrations, and the assumption is they'd operate on this new resources | 12:52 |
| alex_xu | sdague: ok, cool, happy to see this move on, if we have plan | 12:52 |
| sdague | i.e. I'm -2 on all patches on this live migration status if they update the existing resource | 12:52 |
| alex_xu | so we need update the spec | 12:52 |
| sdague | alex_xu: so can you circle with the intel folks and get them to make a spec update? | 12:52 |
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| sdague | yeh, that was the point of the agenda item | 12:53 |
| alex_xu | sdague: yup, I will do that | 12:53 |
| sdague | realizing this fell through the cracks | 12:53 |
| alex_xu | sdague: I mean for adding link in /migration is N release work? | 12:53 |
| sdague | alex_xu: yeh, it needs to be as part of the same version that adds the extended status | 12:54 |
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| sdague | otherwise how to people discover the new resources? | 12:54 |
| alex_xu | sdague: ok, I see now | 12:54 |
| alex_xu | then let talk about remove /migration in the future | 12:54 |
| sdague | that requires tasks I think | 12:55 |
| sdague | and I don't think it's urgent | 12:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think lets just focus on getting the specs representing the current agreed direction | 12:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, we can punt the rest of it | 12:55 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: agreed | 12:55 |
| alex_xu | ok, I didn't get the relationship about migration and task yet, I thought they are same purpose | 12:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | I have an exception request in to look at making os-instance-actions more consistently used, in the hope of making some progress on "tasks" | 12:55 |
| alex_xu | cool, if we have progress on tasks | 12:56 |
| alex_xu | #topic open | 12:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:56 | |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: long term, I think a migration might also be tracked by a task, but lets worry about that later I guess | 12:56 |
| alex_xu | sorry, jump to open direclty, avoid people need help | 12:56 |
| sdague | ok, open topic question - api samples testing | 12:56 |
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| oomichi | johnthetubaguy: yeah, that is nice direction in long term | 12:56 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: ok, expect that | 12:57 |
| sdague | I was a little confused by some of the testscenarios logic in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254401/1/nova/tests/functional/api_sample_tests/api_sample_base.py,cm because it seems like there are some odd conditionals in there to setup the tests | 12:57 |
| sdague | especially as we want to add a 4th path which doesn't have project_ids in the path | 12:57 |
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| sdague | post meeting, can we go through that in #openstack-nova? | 12:58 |
| alex_xu | sure | 12:58 |
| alex_xu | and gmann__ are expert onthat | 12:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I think we had a TODO to turn all extensions on, not sure if we got that done yet | 12:58 |
| sdague | and one additional question, the patch auggy is working on for making project_id optional | 12:58 |
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| alex_xu | yup, I saw patch from gmann__ | 12:58 |
| gmann__ | sdague: sure i thought to remove project id from existing one | 12:58 |
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| alex_xu | we can talk about that in next meeting also | 12:58 |
| gmann__ | johnthetubaguy: in progress done for image and flavor only | 12:59 |
| sdague | in order to samples test that, my suggestion is we put a new set of samples in doc/api_samples/{foo}/v2.13 | 12:59 |
| sdague | because we'll signal this with a microversion | 12:59 |
| sdague | and wanted to make sure that made sense to folks | 12:59 |
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| sdague | or if there is a better way to do it | 12:59 |
| alex_xu | 1 mins left, let move to openstack-nova directly | 12:59 |
| sdague | ok, sounds good | 12:59 |
| gmann__ | ok | 12:59 |
| alex_xu | thanks all! enjoy the doc sprint! | 13:00 |
| alex_xu | #endmeeting | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 13:00:12 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 13:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-12-08-12.00.html | 13:00 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-12-08-12.00.txt | 13:00 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-12-08-12.00.log.html | 13:00 |
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| Qiming | #startmeeting senlin | 13:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 13:00:49 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:00 |
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| Qiming | good evening/morning/... | 13:01 |
| haiwei | hi | 13:01 |
| Yanyanhu | hello | 13:01 |
| elynn__ | o/ | 13:01 |
| lixinhui | hi | 13:01 |
| Qiming | please check agenda and see if you have things to add | 13:01 |
| Qiming | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda | 13:02 |
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| Qiming | as usual, lets start with the etherpad | 13:02 |
| Qiming | #topic Mitaka work items | 13:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mitaka work items (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:02 | |
| Qiming | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-mitaka-workitems | 13:02 |
| Qiming | Resource type -- elynn | 13:03 |
| elynn__ | hi | 13:03 |
| Qiming | previously, it was delayed by the api change | 13:03 |
| elynn__ | no progress this week, api change is done? | 13:04 |
| Qiming | I think the API modification is drawing near its end | 13:04 |
| Qiming | we will do some modifications next to the senlinclient | 13:04 |
| elynn__ | good to know, I will update these patches this week | 13:04 |
| Qiming | okay, the latest patch to sdk is about profile type | 13:05 |
| elynn__ | I would like to add a template to heat-templates, what do you think? | 13:05 |
| Qiming | ref: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/253817/ | 13:05 |
| Qiming | elynn__, we can do that later | 13:05 |
| Qiming | first we need to make sure things work stable | 13:05 |
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| elynn__ | Qiming: you mean after other resources added to heat? | 13:06 |
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| Qiming | yes, elynn__ | 13:06 |
| elynn__ | like policy or webhook | 13:06 |
| Qiming | for example, the update operation is not fully supported I think | 13:06 |
| Qiming | policy and webhook are midterm goals | 13:06 |
| elynn__ | ok, I will focus on cluster and node resources now. | 13:07 |
| Qiming | will need specs on that before working on the code | 13:07 |
| Qiming | yes, focus on the basics please | 13:07 |
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| elynn__ | Qiming: yes, I haven't fully tests update now, I might wait for senlin to get stable. | 13:07 |
| Qiming | the last missing resource type in sdk is policy-type | 13:07 |
| Qiming | that won't be a big deal | 13:07 |
| Qiming | after that senlinclient can be pretty simplified | 13:08 |
| Qiming | elynn__, please help get it stable instead of waiting if you have cycles | 13:08 |
| elynn__ | Qiming: ok , I can start to test the codes now. | 13:08 |
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| Qiming | we need at least CRUD working properly | 13:08 |
| Qiming | great | 13:09 |
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| Qiming | #topic senlinclient unit test | 13:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "senlinclient unit test (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:09 | |
| elynn__ | Qiming: yes, I will do some test on senlin. | 13:09 |
| haiwei | I didn't do it this week | 13:09 |
| haiwei | the unit test | 13:09 |
| Qiming | https://review.openstack.org/251798 | 13:09 |
| Qiming | this one was reviewed | 13:09 |
| haiwei | focused on the api side | 13:09 |
| Qiming | okay | 13:09 |
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| haiwei | honestly I don't know why jenkins failed | 13:10 |
| Qiming | please check if changing 'MagicMock' to 'Mock' makes sense to you | 13:10 |
| haiwei | every single test case can be passed but when running all the tests some of them failed | 13:10 |
| haiwei | replacement of MagicMock is Ok to me | 13:11 |
| Qiming | alright, when help is needed, pls let the team know, :) we can share tears | 13:11 |
| Qiming | okay, another concurrency problem | 13:11 |
| haiwei | I will update the patch soon | 13:11 |
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| Qiming | good luck | 13:11 |
| haiwei | yes | 13:11 |
| Yanyanhu | :) | 13:11 |
| Qiming | #topic api modification | 13:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "api modification (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:11 | |
| haiwei | you and me, right? | 13:12 |
| Qiming | 201/202 response code is already done, right? | 13:12 |
| haiwei | I uploaded two patches in the afternoon | 13:12 |
| Qiming | current focus is to make sure we are returning a 'location' header when appropriate | 13:12 |
| Qiming | yep, saw that, progress is good | 13:13 |
| haiwei | most of the APIs have been done, I think | 13:13 |
| haiwei | I will check if anything is missing | 13:13 |
| haiwei | 201/202 are done | 13:14 |
| Qiming | okay, when you are checking it again, please cross verify it with the docs | 13:14 |
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| elynn__ | Is there any change for senlinclient? | 13:14 |
| Qiming | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252245/ | 13:14 |
| haiwei | ok, I will check the docs | 13:14 |
| Qiming | this is the doc patch, finally got some commens from cores | 13:14 |
| haiwei | the long doc | 13:14 |
| Qiming | the PDF version is easier to read: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/45/252245/10/check/gate-api-site-tox-doc-publish-checkbuild/d1f26a1//publish-docs/api-ref-guides/bk-api-ref-clustering-v1.pdf | 13:14 |
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| Qiming | the HTML version is more interation oriented: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/45/252245/10/check/gate-api-site-tox-doc-publish-checkbuild/d1f26a1//publish-docs/api-ref/api-ref-clustering-v1.html | 13:15 |
| Qiming | 400/404 rework is completed | 13:16 |
| Qiming | release notes commited as well | 13:16 |
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| Qiming | #topic health management | 13:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "health management (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:16 | |
| Qiming | I've being thinking about it | 13:17 |
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| Qiming | need another brain | 13:17 |
| Qiming | lixinhui, want to work on this? | 13:17 |
| lixinhui | Sure | 13:17 |
| Qiming | I was told that your brain quality is good, :) | 13:18 |
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| haiwei | can you explain the basic goal of health policy | 13:18 |
| lixinhui | really? | 13:18 |
| haiwei | health management | 13:18 |
| Yanyanhu | :) | 13:18 |
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| zhangguoqing | explain please :) | 13:19 |
| Qiming | network problem again | 13:19 |
| Qiming | i heard something, then I was disconnected | 13:19 |
| lixinhui | Powerful ears :) | 13:20 |
| Qiming | lixinhui, let's start with some use cases | 13:20 |
| haiwei | seems someone want Senlin to control like : if a vm is dead senlin will start a new one | 13:20 |
| Qiming | we are not about to solve all problems | 13:20 |
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| Qiming | yes, haiwei it sounds pretty simple a scenario | 13:20 |
| Qiming | but it is not that straightforward | 13:21 |
| lixinhui | yes, whole picture is so complicated | 13:21 |
| haiwei | but it seems not easy | 13:21 |
| haiwei | maybe need a new command for it? | 13:21 |
| Qiming | yes, there are at least three factors for consideration: | 13:21 |
| Qiming | 1. failure detection; 2. failure notification; 3. failure recovery | 13:21 |
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| Qiming | senlin will have to do recovery, either manually or automatically | 13:22 |
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| Qiming | because it is MANAGER of the groups | 13:23 |
| haiwei | seems there is a long way to go | 13:23 |
| Qiming | senlin will provide receivers for notifications | 13:23 |
| Qiming | it should allow recovery to be triggered by any external alert/alarm/event/monitoring systems | 13:24 |
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| Qiming | finally, we will look into some naive (builtin) detection mechanisms | 13:25 |
| Qiming | there is no easy answer to any of these three questions | 13:25 |
| Yanyanhu | is that possible the failure detection and notification is from senlin service inside? | 13:25 |
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| haiwei | off line again? | 13:25 |
| Yanyanhu | ...my question make him disconnected again? | 13:26 |
| haiwei | haha | 13:26 |
| lixinhui | haha | 13:26 |
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| Qiming | sigh ... I was out again | 13:26 |
| Qiming | did I miss something? | 13:26 |
| Yanyanhu | nope | 13:27 |
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| lixinhui | :) | 13:27 |
| Qiming | hexchat is very unstable | 13:27 |
| haiwei | <Yanyanhu> is that possible the failure detection and notification is from senlin service inside? | 13:27 |
| Yanyanhu | so the last question is | 13:27 |
| Qiming | I'd say yes | 13:27 |
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| Yanyanhu | I also think so | 13:28 |
| Qiming | but reliable failure detection is a domain by itself | 13:28 |
| Qiming | I'm using mIRC now | 13:28 |
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| Qiming | just bought a license | 13:28 |
| Qiming | okay, moving on? | 13:29 |
| Yanyanhu | yes | 13:29 |
| Qiming | or there are questions? | 13:29 |
| elynn__ | ok | 13:29 |
| haiwei | no | 13:29 |
| Qiming | #topic update operation | 13:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "update operation (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:29 | |
| Yanyanhu | actually didn't have time to work on it this week... | 13:29 |
| Qiming | I think yanyan was completely trapped by the DB concurrency problem | 13:29 |
| Yanyanhu | yea... | 13:29 |
| Qiming | finally, functional tests are passing now | 13:30 |
| Yanyanhu | I'm a little worried there could be no perfect solution for this issue... | 13:30 |
| Qiming | except for the webhook one | 13:30 |
| haiwei | saw the patch , but can't help | 13:30 |
| Qiming | I spent some time reading sqlalchemy docs as well | 13:30 |
| Qiming | maybe this is the only workaround we have today | 13:31 |
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| Yanyanhu | yes, I also have the same feeling... | 13:31 |
| Yanyanhu | maybe we have to make a tradeoff here | 13:31 |
| Qiming | listen to the developers, they may cheat you, but they are the most honest people you are talking to, :) | 13:31 |
| Yanyanhu | yes | 13:31 |
| Qiming | so we will follow the docs | 13:31 |
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| Yanyanhu | and I found some most useful info sometimes came from stackoverflow :) | 13:32 |
| Qiming | okay, moving on | 13:32 |
| Qiming | #topic Receiver | 13:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Receiver (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:32 | |
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| Qiming | I don't think Julio will have cycles in the coming weeks | 13:32 |
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| Qiming | so I'm gonna take over that | 13:32 |
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| Yanyanhu | ok | 13:33 |
| Qiming | #topic lock breaker | 13:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "lock breaker (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:33 | |
| elynn__ | I will | 13:33 |
| elynn__ | find a way to add related tests this week | 13:33 |
| Qiming | haven't do some real tests on the lock breaker thing | 13:33 |
| Qiming | cool, thanks, god | 13:34 |
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| Qiming | #topic parser test case | 13:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "parser test case (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:34 | |
| Yanyanhu | elynn__, great | 13:34 |
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| lixinhui | cool | 13:34 |
| Qiming | em ... anyone want to claim this? | 13:34 |
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| elynn__ | I can do that | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | thanks, god^2 | 13:35 |
| elynn__ | ;) | 13:35 |
| Qiming | #topic functional tests | 13:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "functional tests (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:35 | |
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| Yanyanhu | I think after DB sync issue is resolved, we can have a clean basement for new coming test cases | 13:36 |
| Qiming | we are almost there? | 13:36 |
| Yanyanhu | especially for those ones about lock | 13:36 |
| Yanyanhu | yes | 13:36 |
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| Yanyanhu | hope can finish it this week | 13:36 |
| Qiming | it is rebased on the webhook patch? | 13:36 |
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| Yanyanhu | yes, I rebased it | 13:37 |
| Qiming | cool | 13:37 |
| elynn__ | good to hear! | 13:37 |
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| Yanyanhu | lets wait for the result :) | 13:37 |
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| Qiming | I was thinking maybe not just mark_succeed needs this, other similar functions will needed the fix as well | 13:37 |
| Qiming | for completeness | 13:37 |
| Qiming | #topic bug clearance | 13:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "bug clearance (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:38 | |
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| Qiming | I did spend some time on reviewing the bugs, but ... I need to spend more | 13:38 |
| Qiming | manually mark them as 'fix released' | 13:39 |
| Yanyanhu | it's a hard work... | 13:39 |
| Qiming | this will be done automatically in future, fortunately | 13:39 |
| lixinhui | robot model | 13:39 |
| haiwei | there are many ones which are open? | 13:39 |
| Yanyanhu | Qiming, http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081612.html this mail link you shared | 13:39 |
| Qiming | haiwei, you got to do an 'advanced' search, to find the open ones | 13:39 |
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| Qiming | currently, 'fix commited' ones are still not treated as closed | 13:40 |
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| Qiming | let's take a look at the blueprints? | 13:41 |
| Qiming | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/senlin/+specs?show=all | 13:41 |
| Yanyanhu | ok | 13:41 |
| haiwei | some are started but not approved | 13:41 |
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| Yanyanhu | most backlogs have been marked as implemented | 13:41 |
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| Qiming | em ... | 13:42 |
| Qiming | lock breaker patches were not linking back the the bp | 13:43 |
| elynn__ | Seems most of my patch didn't link back to launchpad | 13:43 |
| Yanyanhu | I can see three patches there | 13:43 |
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| elynn__ | Hmm, This BP have all my patches links. | 13:44 |
| Yanyanhu | this one? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/senlin/+spec/lock-breaker | 13:44 |
| Qiming | okay, maybe because it was not approved? | 13:44 |
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| haiwei | I don't think so Qiming | 13:45 |
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| Qiming | okay, maybe this has to be manually reviewed | 13:46 |
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| Qiming | #topic open discussions | 13:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:47 | |
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| haiwei | elynn__ has submitted a patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254254/4 | 13:48 |
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| Qiming | anything folks want to discuss? | 13:48 |
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| elynn__ | ah, this one | 13:49 |
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| haiwei | I am a little confused about the original implement | 13:49 |
| Yanyanhu | quick question about action API rework. So we still have action_id returned back in resp body right? | 13:49 |
| elynn__ | haiwei: You mean after policy/profile_create, we should retrieve policy again ? | 13:49 |
| Qiming | Yanyanhu, it was not mentioned anywhere | 13:50 |
| haiwei | Yanyanhu, I think so, client side is using it | 13:50 |
| Yanyanhu | yes, just check the code and feel so | 13:50 |
| Qiming | I was thinking about the same question | 13:50 |
| Qiming | however, no one is preventing us from doing so | 13:51 |
| haiwei | elynn__ I just don't know why we should both support policy_id and policy | 13:51 |
| haiwei | Qiming, what question? | 13:51 |
| Qiming | returning action id in body | 13:52 |
| haiwei | elynn__ since only one way is in effect | 13:52 |
| elynn__ | Good question, the codes are already there before I modify it... If use policy, we can save a call to get resource back. | 13:52 |
| Qiming | whether we should do that, my feeling is that it is okay, no one said 202 cannot return a body | 13:52 |
| haiwei | for update, we do return a body | 13:53 |
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| elynn__ | haiwei: It's ok to remove policy support and always retrieve resource after creation. | 13:53 |
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| haiwei | I feel the same way, elynn__ | 13:54 |
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| Qiming | I was lost, seems the patch is about profiles, and you are talking about policies | 13:54 |
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| Yanyanhu | :) | 13:54 |
| elynn__ | Qiming: It's a bug report by you | 13:55 |
| haiwei | policy should be done exactly as profile, but it is not | 13:55 |
| haiwei | I don't know why | 13:55 |
| Yanyanhu | Qiming, about the action_id. I agree to keep it in resp body | 13:55 |
| Qiming | ah, that title should be changed | 13:55 |
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| Qiming | I mean the commit message | 13:55 |
| Qiming | it is talking about both profile and policy, but the patch only fixes profile, not policy, that is the issue you are talking about? | 13:56 |
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| elynn__ | I just make them behave the same. | 13:56 |
| elynn__ | this patch touches both of them. | 13:56 |
| elynn__ | Qiming: It also fixes policy | 13:57 |
| haiwei | actually no, I don't know both policy_id and policy are both in the parameters Qiming | 13:57 |
| elynn__ | Qiming: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254254/4/senlinclient/v1/client.py L90 | 13:57 |
| haiwei | I am lost too when reviewing this patch for the first time | 13:58 |
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| elynn__ | heihei, Seems my commit message mislead you... | 13:58 |
| Qiming | em... need some time to understand the 'extra_attrs' parameter | 13:58 |
| elynn__ | If extra_attrs is True ,will use response body to update resource attributes | 13:59 |
| Qiming | sdk code says so? | 13:59 |
| elynn__ | like created_time, so that we can display them correctly. | 13:59 |
| elynn__ | No... | 13:59 |
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| Qiming | okay, let's continue in #senlin | 14:00 |
| haiwei | time is up | 14:00 |
| Qiming | #endmeeting | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 14:00:20 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-12-08-13.00.html | 14:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-12-08-13.00.txt | 14:00 |
| Qiming | thanks guys | 14:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-12-08-13.00.log.html | 14:00 |
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| armax | ping | 15:00 |
| HenryG | pong | 15:00 |
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| armax | carl_baldwin, kevinbenton, dougwig, HenryG, amotoki ping | 15:00 |
| armax | mestery won’t be joining us | 15:01 |
| armax | he’ll provide a doctor letter on behalf of his wife | 15:01 |
| armax | but it looks like it might be just you and me HenryG | 15:02 |
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| armax | that’s energizing | 15:02 |
| * haleyb is here to lurk if that helps | 15:02 | |
| HenryG | armax: then it should go fast | 15:02 |
| * neiljerram is lurking in case helpful | 15:02 | |
| carl_baldwin | pong | 15:02 |
| amotoki | hi | 15:02 |
| dougwig | O/ | 15:02 |
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| armax | we have almost universal attendance | 15:02 |
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| * carl_baldwin sorry hens | 15:02 | |
| * carl_baldwin sorry he is late | 15:03 | |
| carl_baldwin | stupid autocorrect | 15:03 |
| armax | kevinbenton looks to be the latest of all | 15:03 |
| armax | he probably had a late nite fixing bugs | 15:03 |
| armax | let’s get started | 15:03 |
| njohnston | o/ | 15:03 |
| armax | #startmeeting neutron_drivers | 15:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 15:03:41 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is armax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)" | 15:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers' | 15:03 |
| armax | just to provide a snapshot | 15:04 |
| armax | we have 0 new RFE | 15:04 |
| armax | 19 confirmed RFE | 15:04 |
| armax | and 10 triaged | 15:04 |
| armax | we’ve been going over the triaged ones over this meeting | 15:04 |
| armax | for anyone who is not familiar with the format of this meeting | 15:05 |
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| armax | we assume that the triaged ones are those that have had a reasonable offline discussion already | 15:05 |
| armax | and we make a synchronous decision during the online meeting | 15:05 |
| armax | we go over bugs in the order they have been received | 15:05 |
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| armax | the members of the drivers team process the confirmed bugs offline and move them to triaged when there’s been enough offline discussion | 15:06 |
| armax | anyone is welcome to attend and contribute | 15:06 |
| armax | ok | 15:06 |
| armax | let’s dive in | 15:06 |
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| armax | you guys with me? | 15:07 |
| dougwig | With bells on | 15:07 |
| armax | bug 1464465 | 15:07 |
| openstack | bug 1464465 in neutron "binding_type improvements to simplify Nova interactions" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1464465 | 15:07 |
| * carl_baldwin didn't know all of that. now he does | 15:07 | |
| armax | this was reported by ianw a while back | 15:08 |
| * njohnston is appreciative for the process clarification, thanks armax | 15:08 | |
| armax | I recall kevinbenton making positive comments on this | 15:08 |
| armax | unfortunately most of the heavy lifting is in nova | 15:08 |
| armax | read comment #3 | 15:08 |
| armax | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1464465/comments/3 | 15:08 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1464465 in neutron "binding_type improvements to simplify Nova interactions" [Wishlist,Triaged] | 15:08 |
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| HenryG | Wrong ian FYI | 15:09 |
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| armax | HenryG: thanks | 15:09 |
| armax | HenryG: I knew the irc looked funky | 15:09 |
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| carl_baldwin | anyone know if progress was made on the nova spec? | 15:10 |
| armax | nova is in freeze right now | 15:10 |
| armax | carl_baldwin: I don’t think it made it | 15:10 |
| armax | I spoke with the Nova ptl | 15:10 |
| dougwig | is this similar to the vif library stuff? | 15:10 |
| armax | and they will be accepting only exception for priority items | 15:10 |
| armax | dougwig: no | 15:10 |
| amotoki | how is os-vif effort going? I think it is related too. | 15:11 |
| armax | but the sounds of it | 15:11 |
| armax | amotoki: yes | 15:11 |
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| armax | amotoki: it is tangentially related | 15:11 |
| armax | so I’d be tempted to say: any effort at simplying the interface betweeren nova and neutron is +2 from me | 15:11 |
| armax | but | 15:11 |
| armax | the devils is in the details | 15:11 |
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| * kevinbenton arrives late | 15:12 | |
| armax | kevinbenton: there you are! | 15:12 |
| amotoki | agree. it would be nice if we can sync with nova progress. | 15:12 |
| armax | anyhow let’s follow dougwig’s suggestion to time box bug discussion | 15:12 |
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| carl_baldwin | It kind of seems there isn't much we can do about this one until it is a Nova priority. | 15:12 |
| armax | amotoki: I’ll sync up with nova | 15:12 |
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| armax | carl_baldwin: right, let me comment on this one, I think we should approve in principle, meaning we’ll give it enough attention at least from a specification point of view | 15:13 |
| armax | the actual work may end up starting post-mitaka | 15:13 |
| carl_baldwin | ++ | 15:13 |
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| dougwig | +1 | 15:13 |
| amotoki | +1 | 15:14 |
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| armax | #bug 1468236 | 15:14 |
| openstack | bug 1468236 in neutron "enable neutron support distributed DHCP agents" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1468236 - Assigned to shihanzhang (shihanzhang) | 15:14 |
| armax | this is a tough nut to crack | 15:14 |
| armax | there’s been a long discussion | 15:14 |
| armax | two camps afaik | 15:14 |
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| armax | one that says: going fully distributed may be overkill and raise more problems than it solves | 15:15 |
| armax | the other: ‘we gotta distributed all the things because it’s the right thing to do no matter what' | 15:15 |
| armax | sorry for oversimplifying | 15:16 |
| neiljerram | I guess that's me; but I was just trying to add useful info; not really in any 'camp' | 15:16 |
| armax | neiljerram: your input was highly appreciated | 15:16 |
| shz | thx neil | 15:16 |
| armax | and I agree with most of your points | 15:16 |
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| HenryG | I am no dhcp expert but it seems to me dnsmasq is a constraint for doing distribution nicely | 15:16 |
| armax | the problem I personally see is that dhcp is not really where the pain point lies from a scale perspective | 15:16 |
| armax | dhcp gets out of the way relatively quickly | 15:17 |
| armax | we have a somewhat nice HA dhcp story | 15:17 |
| dougwig | where does it bottleneck? | 15:17 |
| kevinbenton | (as long as you have them spread across enough agents) | 15:17 |
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| armax | kevinbenton: we have load based scheduling now | 15:18 |
| armax | and distributing dhcp over computes with an agent based approach is a huge no-no from me | 15:18 |
| kevinbenton | armax: right, but people that host 10000 networks on two agents run into issues | 15:18 |
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| armax | if DVR taught us anything is that we should be very careful on disseminating control plane logic all over the code base | 15:18 |
| armax | kevinbenton: so run more | 15:18 |
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| kevinbenton | armax: that's what I was saying | 15:19 |
| shz | the centralized dhcp service haa same problems | 15:19 |
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| armax | kevinbenton: adding more agents should address the scaling need | 15:20 |
| armax | kevinbenton: no? | 15:20 |
| armax | isn’t that what you’re saying? | 15:20 |
| kevinbenton | Yes | 15:20 |
| kevinbenton | Run it on every compute node and you won't have an issue | 15:20 |
| amotoki | why can't we run multiple agents on compute node the current way? | 15:20 |
| armax | kevinbenton: right, but you could do that already | 15:20 |
| armax | no changes whatsoever | 15:20 |
| amotoki | it's same as what kevin says | 15:20 |
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| armax | there’s nothing today in the neutron archicteture that prevents you from running a dhcp agent on every host of your cloud | 15:21 |
| armax | and I know of customers who do | 15:21 |
| amotoki | i know too. | 15:21 |
| armax | so as far as I am concerned, if you do want to use a dhcp-based approach to distribute dhcp agents | 15:21 |
| armax | you can do that already | 15:21 |
| armax | now | 15:21 |
| armax | that can bring the control plane issues that neiljerram mentioned | 15:22 |
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| dougwig | we're past the timebox on this one, fyi. | 15:22 |
| armax | but I really don’t want to go down the path of optimizing a deployment architecture that’s atypical anyway | 15:22 |
| kevinbenton | armax: right. I'm saying I don't think this is a high priority because we can schedule multiple per network and have agents on every node | 15:22 |
| armax | dougwig: thanks dougwig | 15:22 |
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| armax | kevinbenton: indeed | 15:22 |
| armax | kevinbenton: in other words we already have building blocks to address the concerns being reaised | 15:22 |
| armax | kevinbenton: is there a fair statemnt? | 15:23 |
| kevinbenton | armax: yes. Need a better justification for where current fails | 15:23 |
| armax | kevinbenton: I’ll provide feedback on this one | 15:23 |
| armax | bug 1508243 | 15:24 |
| openstack | bug 1508243 in neutron "Store Private Key Passphrase in Neutron-LBaaS for TLS Terminations" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1508243 | 15:24 |
| armax | we talked about this one | 15:24 |
| armax | but said we’ll defer to the meetup | 15:24 |
| armax | that’s happening for lbaas | 15:24 |
| armax | dougwig: can you remind us of the dates? | 15:24 |
| dougwig | jan 12th. | 15:24 |
| armax | ok | 15:24 |
| armax | we’ll keep it warm until them | 15:24 |
| armax | then | 15:24 |
| armax | bug 1508997 | 15:24 |
| openstack | bug 1508997 in neutron "Reusable firewall rules" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1508997 | 15:24 |
| armax | this is invalid | 15:24 |
| armax | next | 15:24 |
| armax | :) | 15:25 |
| armax | bug 1516195 | 15:25 |
| openstack | bug 1516195 in neutron "Push all object information in AMQP notifications" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1516195 | 15:25 |
| armax | has anyone had a chance to review the spec proposal? | 15:25 |
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| kevinbenton | That sounds like a spec I wrote | 15:26 |
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| armax | yes | 15:26 |
| dougwig | the initial description sounds counter to how you usually make an event stream scale. | 15:26 |
| carl_baldwin | I gave it a once over. Sounds like it is dependent on some versioning. | 15:26 |
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| armax | we need eyes on the spec | 15:27 |
| armax | to make sure that kevinbenton is not rambling | 15:27 |
| armax | but he may be onto something | 15:27 |
| kevinbenton | dougwig: you make an event stream scale by not providing enough information to be useful? :) | 15:27 |
| armax | the internal bus communitation is far from perfect | 15:27 |
| dougwig | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/225995/ | 15:27 |
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| armax | so I | 15:27 |
| dougwig | kevinbenton: exactly, i'll take it to the spec. plus you get upgrade issues galore. | 15:27 |
| armax | so I’d say, let’s read the spec, see how sounds it is | 15:27 |
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| armax | and then we make an executive decision | 15:28 |
| kevinbenton | dougwig: upgrade is dealt with with objects | 15:28 |
| armax | I think it’s premature to make a decision now | 15:28 |
| kevinbenton | QoS already took this path, so we need to fix them either way | 15:28 |
| dougwig | kevinbenton: i need to read your spec. i'm talking out of my ass right now. | 15:29 |
| armax | kevinbenton: there’s enough flexibility for any feature to take its own path in having agent synchronize with the server | 15:29 |
| dougwig | armax: you really want every agent making up its own rpc? that sounds like madness. | 15:30 |
| armax | kevinbenton: as much as I love consistency, that doesn’t necessarily mean that we should go over and flip everything | 15:30 |
| amotoki | we need to break down rpc call from server to agent. there are a lot of mess in rpc versioning in this direction. | 15:30 |
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| armax | dougwig: no, I am talking about the existing realitiy | 15:30 |
| kevinbenton | armax: this isn't for consistency, it's because I think it's a better pattern | 15:31 |
| amotoki | i think we need some preparetion before doing it. but i need to read the spec. | 15:31 |
| armax | kevinbenton: and I don’t disagree | 15:31 |
| armax | kevinbenton: all I am saying, let’s spend some time going over the details | 15:31 |
| kevinbenton | But they have a race condition right now, which is what I was referring to when I said they needed to be fixed | 15:31 |
| armax | kevinbenton: I see that we hardly had any meaningful discussion on this one | 15:31 |
| armax | to make an informed decision | 15:32 |
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| dougwig | past the timebox. punt and review spec? | 15:33 |
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| * carl_baldwin will review spec | 15:33 | |
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| armax | dougwig: let’s make sure we review the spec this week | 15:33 |
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| armax | dougwig: I am in favor of revisiting the communication pattern | 15:33 |
| dougwig | armax: +1 | 15:33 |
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| armax | but I don’t want to replace a set of problems with another | 15:34 |
| armax | bug 1518087 | 15:34 |
| openstack | bug 1518087 in neutron "[RFE] security group event need be enforced by at least one mech driver" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1518087 | 15:34 |
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| armax | so I have kept an eye on this one ever since it was submitted | 15:35 |
| armax | and I am honestly not sold on the rationale | 15:35 |
| armax | in the latest form of the RFE | 15:36 |
| armax | the author is advocating for overhauling the MD mechanism to allow for enforcement of security groups | 15:36 |
| armax | by at least one mech driver | 15:36 |
| armax | my feedback was two-fold: a) today network creation is fully delagated to MD’s just as well and there’s no mechanism for enforcing the creation on at least by one driver, so this RFE should not be limited to SG only | 15:37 |
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| kevinbenton | So making port binding fail if nobody reported they applied security groups | 15:38 |
| kevinbenton | armax: that's not the same though | 15:38 |
| dougwig | are sg's an l2 or l3 construct? i guess i never really considered them as l2 related from a high-level. | 15:38 |
| armax | b) actually, this sounds like overengineering, because any deployer who wants to use more than one mech-driver will have to know in advance if the two mech drivers are really compatible | 15:38 |
| armax | by ranning some validation tests before going to prod | 15:39 |
| amotoki | i think it is the role of MD which makes the lowest level binding. | 15:39 |
| armax | dougwig: agreed, but ML2 is anything but | 15:39 |
| kevinbenton | armax: Yeah, saying 'run tempest' seems legitimate | 15:39 |
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| armax | I am arguing whether careful planning would allow for this issue not to show up in prod | 15:40 |
| armax | it sounds too little too late to detect this issue at run time | 15:40 |
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| dougwig | i think the point of the rfe is that there's too much magic that you have to *just know* before prod, and we should start enforcing some of it, like, SG's that actually work as advertised. | 15:41 |
| dougwig | i may be reading between the lines too much. | 15:41 |
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| armax | dougwig: that | 15:41 |
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| kevinbenton | But that's what tempest will tell you | 15:41 |
| armax | dougwig: that’s a fair point | 15:41 |
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| armax | dougwig: but what does enforcement tell you? That your MD’s of choice don’t work together well? | 15:42 |
| armax | dougwig: you don’t go to prod willy nilly do you? | 15:42 |
| armax | :) | 15:42 |
| amotoki | it sounds a reasonable assumption that operators do some functional tests in advance :) | 15:43 |
| dougwig | i certainly don't run tempest first, but then, i'm not an operator. :) | 15:43 |
| armax | dougwig: either tempest of your validation suite of choice | 15:43 |
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| dougwig | still, i can't think of any software package off the top of my head that gives the advice of, "stuff might work. run some test frameworks first to make sure." | 15:43 |
| armax | dougwig: I’d argue that you go and make sure your expectations are met before handing over the environment to your user | 15:43 |
| armax | s | 15:43 |
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| armax | dougwig: you just described openstack! | 15:44 |
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| kevinbenton | dougwig: you've never used linux device drivers have you :) | 15:44 |
| * armax teases | 15:44 | |
| dougwig | armax: i'm not debating that point; just the degree to which we expect our ops to basically be devs. | 15:44 |
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| dougwig | past double timebox on this one so far, btw. | 15:44 |
| HenryG | can something be done in sanity_check.py? | 15:44 |
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| armax | ok, I’ll go over the spec one more time and perhaps dougwig can do the same | 15:45 |
| kevinbenton | HenryG: the issue is that a combination of drivers could fail to do it | 15:45 |
| armax | we can talk about this again next week, but I am provisionally not in favor of this one | 15:45 |
| kevinbenton | Sriov won't have sg, but OVS will | 15:46 |
| armax | bug #1521291 | 15:46 |
| openstack | bug 1521291 in neutron "[RFE] Transition neutron CLI from python-neutronclient to python-openstackclient" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1521291 | 15:46 |
| kevinbenton | So you can't know until after a port is bound | 15:46 |
| dougwig | so, you're provisionally not in favor based on implementation flaws, or the use case being bad? because i think the rfe should focus on the latter, whereas we're all looking at this and groaning, "oh boy, that'd suck in ml2." | 15:47 |
| dougwig | will take it to the spec. | 15:48 |
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| armax | dougwig: ack | 15:48 |
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| HenryG | I get the impression the osc folks have got quite far along with supporting neutron. amotoki, what do you think? | 15:48 |
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| armax | as for bug 1521291, I think we’re all universally in favor of some progress on this front | 15:48 |
| openstack | bug 1521291 in neutron "[RFE] Transition neutron CLI from python-neutronclient to python-openstackclient" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1521291 | 15:48 |
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| amotoki | i think we can move forward osc implementation | 15:49 |
| armax | I checked with nova what the latest is on the novaclient integration | 15:49 |
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| amotoki | but it needs more time until it becomes mature. | 15:49 |
| armax | we need to make sure we don’t overlap with their client, because it also allows for some networking related operations | 15:49 |
| amotoki | I think there is no need to block the effort from our side. | 15:49 |
| armax | amotoki: agreed | 15:49 |
| armax | amotoki: one point I’d like to make though is: we need to set expectations | 15:50 |
| amotoki | the first milestone is feature parity to the current neutronclient. | 15:50 |
| armax | amotoki: because I think it’s not clear where the OSC starts and where it ends, and whether it’s meant to make the native client superseded | 15:50 |
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| amotoki | i understand your point. | 15:51 |
| dougwig | amotoki: feature parity with or without extensions? is there a similar mechanism? is there a shim to use old extensions? | 15:52 |
| amotoki | osc natively supports the extension mechanism thru entry_points. | 15:52 |
| armax | amotoki: I would like to see some document, either a spec or a devref, probably a devref that explain what the future for the clients looks like | 15:52 |
| amotoki | armax: totally agree. | 15:52 |
| dougwig | +1 | 15:53 |
| amotoki | there are sevearl points to be clarified before moving it forward. | 15:53 |
| armax | amotoki: and that should serve developers so that they redirected correctly for their client efforts | 15:53 |
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| amotoki | in neutron devref? | 15:53 |
| armax | then we’d need to have user docs, but that’s for later when things have reached maturity | 15:53 |
| armax | amotoki: best in the client devref | 15:54 |
| amotoki | got it. sounds good. | 15:54 |
| armax | amotoki: btw I don’t think that that has an entry point on docs.o.o | 15:54 |
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| dougwig | in that doc, i'd like to see, when do they expect 1.0, when will docs support it, what is the deprecation plan for the old neutronclient, in addition to the 'how'. | 15:54 |
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| armax | I’ll comment on the RFE, but I think we all agree some progress here is in order and if we have volunteers we should encourage to work on it | 15:55 |
| amotoki | for client, documents on docs.o.o are for released version. | 15:55 |
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| armax | amotoki: I’ll have a look last time I checked I couldnt’ find it | 15:55 |
| armax | amotoki: you happy to sponsor this initiative? | 15:55 |
| amotoki | armax: sure | 15:55 |
| armax | amotoki: good stuff | 15:56 |
| amotoki | armax: you need to follow "Language Bindings and Python Clients" instead of "python developer documentation". | 15:56 |
| armax | ok I’ll look it up | 15:56 |
| armax | next we have 3 bugs that apparently have both tags RFE and RFE-APPROVED | 15:57 |
| armax | dougwig I think is at fault for that :) | 15:57 |
| armax | bug 1523219 | 15:57 |
| openstack | bug 1523219 in neutron "[RFE] Support X-Forwarded-For header in LBaaSv2" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1523219 - Assigned to Kobi Samoray (ksamoray) | 15:57 |
| armax | bug 1523222 | 15:57 |
| openstack | bug 1523222 in neutron "LBaaSv2 TLS support is limited to offloading" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1523222 - Assigned to Kobi Samoray (ksamoray) | 15:57 |
| armax | and | 15:57 |
| armax | bug 1523231 | 15:57 |
| openstack | bug 1523231 in neutron "LBaaSv2 HTTP, HTTPS health monitor validates only return code" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1523231 - Assigned to Kobi Samoray (ksamoray) | 15:57 |
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| armax | if these are turned out these quickly they probably shouldn’t be RFE | 15:58 |
| dougwig | i think they're all no brainers if they have a resource. constrained, make sense, widely used in industry, don't bring up any general neutron issues. | 15:58 |
| armax | these basically overtook a lot of bugs that have been in the pile for a while | 15:58 |
| armax | and that’s not fair | 15:58 |
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| dougwig | hmm, i may have gorked the process, but i thought we could punt the drivers meeting for the obvious stuff? i was trying to save time. | 15:59 |
| armax | so, they are minor enhancement, well scoped things that fix something that you think it’s broken | 15:59 |
| armax | they are probably not RFE in the first place | 15:59 |
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| dougwig | wait, isn't that exactly what an rfe is? not a bug, needs to be tracked? | 15:59 |
| armax | we can discuss this offline | 15:59 |
| armax | #endmeeting | 15:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 15:59 | |
| dougwig | ok. | 15:59 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 15:59:58 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-12-08-15.03.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-12-08-15.03.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-12-08-15.03.log.html | 16:00 |
| armax | thanks for joining! | 16:00 |
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| amotoki | thanks | 16:00 |
| carl_baldwin | thanks! | 16:02 |
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| dstanek | notmorgan: you hanging around? | 16:13 |
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| notmorgan | dstanek: hmm? | 16:13 |
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| dstanek | notmorgan: have you thought much about the testing of legacy driver interfaces with regards to driver versioning? | 16:14 |
| notmorgan | Nope | 16:14 |
| dstanek | notmorgan: let me run this by you and maybe you can mull it over today... | 16:15 |
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| dstanek | in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/242853/29/ the old SQL driver is kept around specifically for unit testing to make sure we can support V8 drivers using a V9 manager | 16:16 |
| dstanek | the architecture is simple the Manager always uses the newest interface. if keystone is configured with an older driver interface it is wrapped with an adapter | 16:16 |
| dstanek | the problem right now is that if both models are loaded into memory, i think that one of them will win out when the table is created since they both want the same table name. | 16:17 |
| dstanek | notmorgan: lots of way to solve this like having the old driver user a _v8 suffix for the table name. not sure what i'd do yet. | 16:18 |
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| notmorgan | dstanek: I think you described the initial plan | 16:22 |
| notmorgan | I don't know how to resolve the table schema differences | 16:22 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: honestly... I am a lot less interested in that stuff ATM. :( trying to stay focused on client/ksa things. | 16:23 |
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| dstanek | notmorgan: sure, i was hoping you had already thought about it :-( | 16:24 |
| notmorgan | Nope =\ | 16:24 |
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| asselin_ | #startmeeting thirdparty | 17:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 17:01:23 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is asselin_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:01 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: thirdparty)" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'thirdparty' | 17:01 |
| asselin_ | who's here for thirdparty ci working group meeting? | 17:01 |
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| asselin_ | mmedvede, you around? | 17:03 |
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| mmedvede | asselin_: hi, yes | 17:03 |
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| mmedvede | was it always called thirdparty, without a dash? my irc client pings me when it is third-party :) | 17:04 |
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| asselin_ | maybe I messed up | 17:04 |
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| asselin_ | #endmeeting | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 17:05 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 17:05:21 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:05 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/thirdparty/2015/thirdparty.2015-12-08-17.01.html | 17:05 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/thirdparty/2015/thirdparty.2015-12-08-17.01.txt | 17:05 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/thirdparty/2015/thirdparty.2015-12-08-17.01.log.html | 17:05 |
| asselin_ | #startmeeting third-party | 17:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 17:05:30 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is asselin_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 17:05 |
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| asselin_ | who's here for thirdparty ci working group meeting? | 17:06 |
| ja3 | moi | 17:06 |
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| asselin_ | bonjour ja3 | 17:06 |
| ja3 | konichiwa (my best phoenetic attempt | 17:06 |
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| asselin_ | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#12.2F8.2F15_1700_UTC | 17:07 |
| asselin_ | #topic announcements | 17:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:07 | |
| asselin_ | anyone have any announcements to make? | 17:08 |
| ja3 | none here | 17:08 |
| ja3 | best I could do would be teaser for a new-ish CI | 17:08 |
| asselin_ | #topic CI Watch | 17:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "CI Watch (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:08 | |
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| asselin_ | mmedvede, want to give an update? | 17:09 |
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| mmedvede | I did send out an email requesting to add cores to puppet-ciwatch | 17:10 |
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| mmedvede | because it is official infra repo, probably would need to go through official nomination if any of us wants to get added | 17:10 |
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| mmedvede | for now, infra/infra-core groups can approve changes there | 17:11 |
| asselin_ | do you have a link to the e-mail request? | 17:11 |
| * mmedvede looking | 17:11 | |
| asselin_ | I see pleia2 responded. We'll need fungi to chime in | 17:12 |
| fungi | mmedvede: asselin_: right, this is an infra puppet module, correct? | 17:12 |
| asselin_ | yes | 17:13 |
| fungi | we have a dedicated infra-puppet-core team for those | 17:13 |
| fungi | they should already have access set up | 17:13 |
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| mmedvede | fungi: I am fine with this, as long as infra team has time to review at this initial phase | 17:13 |
| fungi | mmedvede: we should see about expanding that group with people who want to review that module and others as well | 17:14 |
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| fungi | the challenge is making sure we maintain some sort of consistency across infra-governed puppet modules | 17:14 |
| asselin_ | yeah, currently it's really just infra-core and crinkle | 17:14 |
| mmedvede | right now I am the only one who is working on that module. +1 for enforcing consistency | 17:15 |
| fungi | and yolanda and nibalizer | 17:15 |
| asselin_ | they're core now right? | 17:15 |
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| fungi | have been for months | 17:15 |
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| fungi | but we can certainly discuss expanding that group further to handle the review load | 17:15 |
| mmedvede | fungi: while you are here, myself and asselin_ are cores in ciwatch project. There is a lot of refactoring needs to happen there, as it did not start out as infra project | 17:16 |
| mmedvede | so we were, maybe wrongfully, approving our patches there | 17:16 |
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| fungi | nah, that's fine | 17:17 |
| nibalizer | also crinkle has puppet-core | 17:17 |
| fungi | projects like that in their infancy tend to have small dedicated review groups | 17:17 |
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| nibalizer | asselin_: mmedvede feel free to ping me for reviews if I am not getting to them in my normal pattern | 17:17 |
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| mmedvede | nibalizer: thanks! would do. Not many reviews there at the moment | 17:18 |
| asselin_ | nibalizer, 1st patch :) https://review.openstack.org/#/q/puppet-ciwatch,n,z | 17:18 |
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| mmedvede | asselin_: thanks | 17:18 |
| fungi | mmedvede: so given that you, asselin_ and skylerberg are the only dedicated core reviewers on ciwatch (infra-core are included more for oversight/emergencies) and the primary authors, it's expected you'll be approving each others patches | 17:18 |
| asselin_ | fungi, +1 | 17:19 |
| mmedvede | fungi: cool! | 17:19 |
| mmedvede | we have a blessing :) | 17:19 |
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| asselin_ | mmedvede, so other than reviews, how's everything else going? | 17:21 |
| mmedvede | #link email request to add puppet-ciwatch cores | 17:21 |
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| mmedvede | asselin_: my time was short last week (problems in our CI). Otherwise, we need to start adding testing | 17:21 |
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| mmedvede | I think I mentioned that last week | 17:22 |
| mmedvede | but most bad bugs were fixed, and ciwatch is running stable in our test deployments | 17:22 |
| mmedvede | without having tests, it is very hard to proceed | 17:23 |
| asselin_ | +1 | 17:23 |
| asselin_ | apoorvad, you around? | 17:23 |
| mmedvede | what blocks us requesting infra to deploy ciwatch is ability to reload config | 17:23 |
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| asselin_ | what about restart? | 17:24 |
| mmedvede | but config itself needs a lot of refactoring | 17:24 |
| mmedvede | asselin_: you are thinking outside the box! :) | 17:24 |
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| mmedvede | could use restart | 17:25 |
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| apoorvad | asselin_: yup | 17:25 |
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| asselin_ | not as nice as reload, but can work if there's no state that needs to be saved | 17:25 |
| mmedvede | +1 | 17:26 |
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| apoorvad | mmedvede, asselin_ : ciwatch is running stable in my env as well. | 17:27 |
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| asselin_ | apoorvad, are you using mmedvede puppet scripts? | 17:27 |
| mmedvede | #link http://ci-watch.tintri.com/project?project=nova | 17:27 |
| apoorvad | asselin_: yes sir! | 17:27 |
| asselin_ | cool! | 17:28 |
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| asselin_ | apoorvad, could you mention that in the review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/238606/6 | 17:28 |
| apoorvad | asselin_: sure | 17:29 |
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| asselin_ | #action ci-watch next steps is to add some unit tests | 17:30 |
| mmedvede | asselin_: also, should mention this "small" patch that brought up some issues with current config implementation: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252050/ | 17:30 |
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| mmedvede | +1 | 17:30 |
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| apoorvad | +1 | 17:30 |
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| mmedvede | we can approve 252050, and start working on unit tests. Once some of basics are in place, can do refactoring a bit easier | 17:31 |
| apoorvad | asselin_: Should we merge https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252050/ and then work on config refactoring? | 17:31 |
| apoorvad | mmedvede : +1 | 17:32 |
| asselin_ | yeah, noticing I have the -1 now | 17:32 |
| apoorvad | mmedvede: I would work with you on unit test additions | 17:32 |
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| asselin_ | ok +2. We'll certianly have more follow-ups. | 17:34 |
| mmedvede | apoorvad: thanks. I was looking into reusing oslotest, that was used in cookiecutter template | 17:34 |
| mmedvede | asettle: apoorvad: any objection to oslotest? I thought it could be too specific to OpenStack | 17:34 |
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| apoorvad | mmedvede: Frankly, I have not worked with it. | 17:35 |
| asselin_ | what is used for the other infra tools? | 17:35 |
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| mmedvede | asselin_: python testtools for zuul | 17:36 |
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| asselin_ | I'm seeing the same for nodepool | 17:37 |
| mmedvede | I think oslotest wraps a lot of other tools, and adds ability to test cross-project etc | 17:37 |
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| apoorvad | asselin_, mmedvede: Since skylerberg is not active these days, can I replace him as ciwatch core reviewer? | 17:37 |
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| asselin_ | +1 from me | 17:39 |
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| mmedvede | no objections. Only three of us are more or less active there at the moment. And I trust we can keep it moving in the right direction | 17:40 |
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| asselin_ | mmedvede, do you recommend oslotest for testtools? | 17:41 |
| apoorvad | asselin_, mmedvede: thanks | 17:41 |
| asselin_ | s/for/over | 17:42 |
| mmedvede | asselin_: what would be a correct way to replace a core? official e-mail? | 17:42 |
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| mmedvede | asselin_: I have not used either much | 17:42 |
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| mmedvede | asselin_: so if infra is using testtools for two of their big projects, it would be a good start | 17:42 |
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| asselin_ | mmedvede, not sure. let's ask in infra | 17:43 |
| mmedvede | keeping it consistent would be good | 17:43 |
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| asselin_ | mmedvede, yes, I like consistency, but also familiarity. Seems consistency is winning here | 17:43 |
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| mmedvede | familiarity and consistency come together, I thought. Less different things to trip over | 17:44 |
| mmedvede | asselin_: it would be clearer as we add actual testing. I'll take a deeper look in what oslotest adds | 17:45 |
| asselin_ | mmedvede, ok | 17:46 |
| asselin_ | #action mmedvede to compare oslotest and testtools | 17:46 |
| asselin_ | mmedvede, apoorvad are we going to include the 'features' in the agenda in launchpad? | 17:47 |
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| asselin_ | agenda here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#12.2F8.2F15_1700_UTC | 17:48 |
| asselin_ | would those be launchpad blueprints? | 17:48 |
| mmedvede | The bigger items could be blueprints, e.g. separate backend from frontend is big | 17:49 |
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| apoorvad | mmedvede: + | 17:50 |
| apoorvad | +2 | 17:50 |
| apoorvad | +1 :) | 17:50 |
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| mmedvede | asselin_: do you think they all should be blueprints? | 17:52 |
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| asselin_ | well, they shouldn't be line items in an agenda, so if not a blueprint, then a bug 'feature'. | 17:52 |
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| asselin_ | But I'm thinking of just created blueprints for all of them, title only. | 17:53 |
| asselin_ | just creating* | 17:53 |
| mmedvede | we can always use 'partial-bug' in commits | 17:53 |
| mmedvede | so we keep track of bigger features | 17:53 |
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| mmedvede | asselin_: ok, lets do blueprints | 17:54 |
| asselin_ | #action asselin to created initial blueprints for desired features. | 17:54 |
| asselin_ | anything else? we've got 6 minutes | 17:54 |
| asselin_ | #topic Common-CI Solution | 17:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Common-CI Solution (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:55 | |
| asselin_ | realy quick, lots of the previous issues/patches are now merged. | 17:55 |
| asselin_ | there's one more know issue fixed here | 17:55 |
| asselin_ | #link Open Issue: Cannot run jobs on jenkins master: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252768/ | 17:55 |
| asselin_ | #Topic Open Discussion | 17:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:56 | |
| asselin_ | anything else to discuss? | 17:56 |
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| asselin_ | ok then, thanks everyone! | 17:57 |
| asselin_ | #endmeeting | 17:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 17:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 17:58:00 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-17.05.html | 17:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-17.05.txt | 17:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-17.05.log.html | 17:58 |
| mmedvede | thanks asselin_ ! | 17:58 |
| apoorvad | asselin_: mmedvede :thanks! | 17:58 |
| ja3 | tschuss | 17:58 |
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| stevemar | pings for all the folks | 17:59 |
| stevemar | ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, claudiub, rderose, samleon, xek, MaxPC, tjcocozz | 17:59 |
| lbragstad | stevemar o/ | 17:59 |
| stevemar | o/ | 17:59 |
| henrynash | hi | 17:59 |
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| stevemar | keystoners, ASSEMBLE! | 17:59 |
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| davechen | o/ | 18:00 |
| amakarov | hi! | 18:00 |
| nonameentername | o/ | 18:00 |
| HoloIRCUser1 | o/ | 18:00 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 18:00 |
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| stevemar | HoloIRCUser1 needs a new nick | 18:00 |
| gyee | \o | 18:00 |
| stevemar | :) | 18:00 |
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| stevemar | nonameentername: glad to see you here! | 18:00 |
| lhcheng | o/ | 18:00 |
| htruta | o/ | 18:00 |
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| samueldmq | hi | 18:00 |
| HoloIRCUser1 | o/ | 18:00 |
| nonameentername | stevemar: thanks | 18:01 |
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| stevemar | #startmeeting keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 18:01:25 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
| stevemar | thanks for coming to this week's installment of keysone-meeting :) | 18:01 |
| stevemar | the agenda is here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:01 |
| stevemar | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:01 |
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| ayoung | He yo! | 18:02 |
| stevemar | its rather light, i guess some folks are already in holiday mode | 18:02 |
| stevemar | #topic MFA | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "MFA (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| stevemar | nonameentername: did you want to chat about this one? | 18:02 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:02 |
| stevemar | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130376/ | 18:02 |
| stevemar | the review is up here ^ | 18:03 |
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| gyee | do it! | 18:03 |
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| lbragstad | gyee will you champion? | 18:03 |
| topol | o/ | 18:03 |
| stevemar | i know *a lot* of folks want this in | 18:03 |
| dstanek | gyee is a champion! | 18:03 |
| nonameentername | Yeah, basically I want to add another authntication type 'passcode' that is based on TOTP, HOTP | 18:03 |
| gyee | lbragstad, you mean like writing code? | 18:03 |
| lbragstad | gyee i think champion is dedicating review time | 18:03 |
| lbragstad | gyee owner is the one writing the code | 18:04 |
| stevemar | lbragstad: correct | 18:04 |
| gyee | lbragstad, sure, I am quite familiar with that one | 18:04 |
| bknudson | what if the owner gets too busy? | 18:04 |
| lbragstad | gyee awesome | 18:04 |
| nonameentername | and require users to specify both password and passcode for some domains and projects. | 18:04 |
| stevemar | bknudson: then someone else can pick up the work or we can see it in N | 18:04 |
| lbragstad | nonameentername how far along are you? | 18:04 |
| lbragstad | on the implementation? | 18:04 |
| lbragstad | if at all.. | 18:04 |
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| stevemar | nonameentername: so the things i'm looking for in the spec... where are the API changes? what's the impact to non SQL users (ldap/federated/trust/etc) | 18:05 |
| nonameentername | I already have a poc that has TOTP working for authenticate, but it's missing the database part that stores backend | 18:05 |
| gyee | so as long as we do the time hash only | 18:05 |
| gyee | managing sequence is not fun | 18:05 |
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| bknudson | do we need to change the current auth plugin framework we have in keystone? | 18:06 |
| gyee | no | 18:06 |
| nonameentername | stevemar: I can add api changes to the spec | 18:06 |
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| gyee | just another plugin | 18:06 |
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| nonameentername | it, will need an apy to enable / disable mfa for user, domain and project | 18:06 |
| nonameentername | *api | 18:07 |
| nonameentername | and also to setup mfa for a specific user | 18:07 |
| bknudson | it's unfortunate that we have to implement this in keystone. we already have federation so can't the idps do this? | 18:07 |
| gyee | nonameentername, you want to go that far? | 18:07 |
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| gyee | so far we don't tied auth mechanism with users | 18:07 |
| stevemar | bknudson: so yeah, if i have google as my IDP, then i get MFA for free | 18:07 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: ++ | 18:07 |
| bknudson | I guess it depends on how easy it is. Maybe it's only a few lines of code. In which case go ahead. | 18:08 |
| lbragstad | but that's only for federation, right? | 18:08 |
| stevemar | lbragstad: correct | 18:08 |
| bknudson | is there a python library for google auth? | 18:08 |
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| nonameentername | What if a user wants to setup mfa for his own account without using federation? | 18:08 |
| stevemar | this would be useful for sql accounts and possibly.... ldap? | 18:08 |
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| stevemar | nonameentername: right, theres definitely a use case for sql users | 18:09 |
| jamielennox | nonameentername: i think it's more a case of if a provider wants to make those sort of requirements then it should be done via federation | 18:09 |
| bknudson | I wish we'd get rid of sql users. | 18:09 |
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| jamielennox | because this sounds to me like enhancing the SQL user store - which i thought we weren't doing | 18:09 |
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| lbragstad | we also have the shadow user stuff coming | 18:09 |
| lbragstad | doesn't that enhance the sql user store? | 18:10 |
| stevemar | lbragstad: not really | 18:10 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad: that's more tracking than being source of truth | 18:10 |
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| stevemar | lbragstad: the biggest gain is for federated users | 18:10 |
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| bknudson | for sql users we've to the extras column so I don't care if we're expecting new fields. | 18:11 |
| lhcheng | I think one reason the MFA needs to be in keystone is we want to setup MFA for certain projects/domain only. Can we do that in federation? | 18:11 |
| stevemar | "certain projects/domains" | 18:11 |
| rderose | mfa can be used with LDAP, correct; not only sql users | 18:11 |
| stevemar | can you expand on that? | 18:11 |
| stevemar | rderose: thanks for confirming | 18:11 |
| lhcheng | stevemar: the use case would be.. | 18:12 |
| stevemar | i thought it was likely to work with ldap | 18:12 |
| bknudson | since this doesn't actually require any changes to keystone I'm fine with it going ahead. | 18:12 |
| lhcheng | I want to setup a global keystone to access my data center, and within the data center there would be different security zone. | 18:12 |
| bknudson | let's see the code | 18:12 |
| nonameentername | In a public cloud I setup a project and want users to use the project, but I only want them to use it when they have MFA enabled. | 18:12 |
| gyee | bknudson, it does, it depends how far we want to go | 18:12 |
| stevemar | bknudson: how would it not have changes to keystone? | 18:13 |
| lhcheng | for server running in higher security zone, I want higher security. The idea is have a project that can have access to higher security zone, and add MFA to those projects. | 18:13 |
| bknudson | it's just a new plugin | 18:13 |
| gyee | if we have to associate domain/project and user with auth mechanisms, this require framework changes | 18:13 |
| lbragstad | most of the implementation lives in the authentication plugin | 18:13 |
| bknudson | so you're not changing any existing code, only adding new | 18:13 |
| stevemar | thats the hope :) | 18:13 |
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| jamielennox | would we expect this to affect federtaed users? | 18:14 |
| jamielennox | or want it to? | 18:14 |
| bknudson | maybe we can make the security zone thing explicit and work with any auth | 18:14 |
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| stevemar | nonameentername: update the spec to be explicit about what user's this will work for (I think just SQL and LDAP), and write out any new APIs as well. | 18:14 |
| bknudson | maybe give the user a role if they auth with some method and you can use that in policy? | 18:15 |
| jamielennox | stevemar: well with shadow users table you'll pretty much get it anyway | 18:15 |
| nonameentername | stevemar: ok, I can do that | 18:15 |
| lbragstad | so, no federated support for mfa initially (i'm not sure that seems right anyway?) | 18:15 |
| bknudson | federation already gives you mfa today | 18:15 |
| stevemar | nonameentername: i believe lhcheng and lbragstad are going to "champion" this spec | 18:15 |
| bknudson | if you're using federation you don't need this | 18:15 |
| topol | bknudson how so? | 18:15 |
| stevemar | bknudson: right-o! | 18:15 |
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| lbragstad | right, so i'm not sure it makes sense to have federation in the scope of this sepc | 18:15 |
| gyee | federation is orthogonal to MFA | 18:16 |
| lbragstad | spec* | 18:16 |
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| davechen | bknudson: how? +1 | 18:16 |
| stevemar | topol: the idp will have it for free | 18:16 |
| bknudson | set up your identity provider to do mfa | 18:16 |
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| stevemar | topol: like how google tells me to enter the code it sends to my phone | 18:16 |
| topol | bknudson, k just checking. thought you would say that | 18:16 |
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| topol | stevemar +++ | 18:16 |
| stevemar | nonameentername: you've got 2 TODOs and 2 champions | 18:16 |
| stevemar | update the spec and we'll approve | 18:16 |
| gyee | just to be clear, this one is not about entering codes send to the phone | 18:17 |
| nonameentername | stevemar: thanks | 18:17 |
| gyee | this is strictly for time hash | 18:17 |
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| stevemar | gyee: yes yes | 18:17 |
| lbragstad | so TOTP specific? | 18:17 |
| bknudson | so federation is even better | 18:17 |
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| nonameentername | gyee: this is not for sms, only totp, and hotp | 18:17 |
| stevemar | bknudson: it's always better | 18:17 |
| gyee | nonameetername, no sequence hash please | 18:17 |
| jamielennox | where's ayoung, i expect he's going to have some opinions on how this is done | 18:17 |
| gyee | that's very hard to manage | 18:17 |
| gyee | syncing sequence number is not easy to implement | 18:17 |
| stevemar | gyee: yes, it was just an example :) | 18:17 |
| lbragstad | gyee did you try this already ? | 18:17 |
| jamielennox | and doing it in/out of keystone | 18:17 |
| bknudson | I thought keystone supported auth with multiple roundtrips? | 18:18 |
| nonameentername | gyee: ok, I can implement only totp and ignore hotp | 18:18 |
| gyee | lbragstad, we have some inhouse POCs awhile back | 18:18 |
| ayoung | Nah, I never have opinions | 18:18 |
| lbragstad | gyee gotcha, | 18:18 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: we could make it work, but not explicitly i think | 18:18 |
| henrynash | ayoung: bland, quiet…. | 18:18 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: you hadn't said anything for a while - typically i take that to mean you're not around :) | 18:18 |
| stevemar | calling this topic finito | 18:19 |
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| henrynash | ole | 18:19 |
| stevemar | #topic Domain Specific Roles | 18:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Domain Specific Roles (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:19 | |
| stevemar | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254139/ | 18:19 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, was still catching up...my kneejerk reaction is "can we do this with federation" | 18:19 |
| stevemar | henrynash gyee ayoung -- figure this mess out | 18:19 |
| henrynash | oh, didn;t know this was on here! | 18:19 |
| gyee | I am struggling mightily with that one right now | 18:19 |
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| ayoung | we tried OTP with SAML and basically had it working | 18:20 |
| henrynash | gyee: so see my comments to the link steve just posted | 18:20 |
| ayoung | try to keep crypto stuff out of Python if possible. | 18:20 |
| henrynash | (just for background to all): Since gyee had argued for using a role-group concept for Domain Specific Roles, I posted a review (just for discussion) on how that would look: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254139/ | 18:20 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: mine to, was mentioned | 18:20 |
| ayoung | but...still need more details to make a firm recommendation | 18:20 |
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| gyee | henrynash, we can more or less can accomplish role groups with user groups | 18:21 |
| gyee | so role groups doesn't buy much | 18:21 |
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| gyee | user groups are essentially perm templates | 18:22 |
| stevemar | domain specific roles are roles that a domain administrator can create/delete/assign, right? | 18:22 |
| henrynash | gyee: so *some* companies might, but others haev strict user groups defined in LDAP etc.. and don’t necessarily lend themslevs to this | 18:22 |
| gyee | only difference is that role groups have no targets | 18:22 |
| lbragstad | stevemar that's what I was thinking | 18:22 |
| topol | stevemar I hope so | 18:22 |
| henrynash | stevemar: yes | 18:22 |
| lbragstad | so these roles only mean anything within that domain, how does that tie in with policy? | 18:22 |
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| gyee | stevemar, yes, but we can't prevent the creator from mapping them to some global roles | 18:23 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: yes, they don't go into the policies, only globalroles go | 18:23 |
| ayoung | gyee, so...we could split groups out of the identity backend | 18:23 |
| henrynash | and I think gyee, the nub of your concern is that it will be confusing in the case of DSRs based on implied roles,….that the DSR iteself doesn;t go in the token | 18:23 |
| stevemar | lbragstad: cause you don't want the domain admin to be able to create/delete/assign roles globally | 18:23 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: they're expanded into global role when issueing tokens | 18:23 |
| lbragstad | so domain roles won't be applied to other services? | 18:23 |
| henrynash | so see my comment and scenario I posted on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254139/ - I really don;t see the confusion youare concerend about | 18:23 |
| ayoung | that might make sense anyway. It means that a user could get their identity from one domain, and their groups from a second | 18:24 |
| gyee | henrynash, right, that was my original concern | 18:24 |
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| henrynash | lbragstad: DSRs are mapped into global roles…which is what go esin the token | 18:24 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: no, other services only need to know about global roles | 18:24 |
| samueldmq | henrynash: ++ | 18:24 |
| lbragstad | samueldmq ok, so you have super granular global roles | 18:24 |
| ayoung | gyee, so, I was thinking we do the "URL safe" approach. If you go URL safe, then you can do | 18:24 |
| david8hu | Domain admin can only delete/create/mod users, roles in his/her domain? | 18:25 |
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| ayoung | domain/IBM/admin versuse domain/HP/admin vs domain/redhat/admin | 18:25 |
| lbragstad | and the domain roles are combinations of really granular global roles | 18:25 |
| henrynash | david8hu yes | 18:25 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: yes and you can group them as you want, with custom names for your domain ,etc | 18:25 |
| henrynash | lbragstad: ++ | 18:25 |
| ayoung | but...not sure if having them in the token would ever be used to enforce policy | 18:25 |
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| lbragstad | samueldmq henrynash gotcha, interesting | 18:25 |
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| gyee | ayoung, we can, but its useless till we can update the enforcement part | 18:25 |
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| ayoung | gyee, while we could enforce on that now, I just don't know when that would be required | 18:26 |
| gyee | right now role is unidimentional, not multidimentional | 18:26 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: they'd go in the token? | 18:26 |
| ayoung | I mean, yeah, you would have to edit policy by hand | 18:26 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, this is IF they go in the token, what would they look like | 18:26 |
| henrynash | remember (not wishing to be forward or nothin’) but we did vote on DSRs using implies roles alst week and got 7 For and 6 or 7 abstains, and none against | 18:26 |
| gyee | if we agree that role is multidimentional, then we have some flexibility there | 18:26 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, I can't see a reason to put them into the token | 18:27 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: yea, not in token | 18:27 |
| david8hu | henrynash, if I create custom role within the domain I administers, are you going to have policy per domain? | 18:27 |
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| lbragstad | the token will still only have the global roles | 18:27 |
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| samueldmq | gyee: what does that mean ? roles being unidimentional vs multidimentional ? | 18:27 |
| gyee | samueldmq, it means instead of just a name, it is a set of attributes | 18:28 |
| gyee | role.name, role.domain_id, role.type, etc | 18:28 |
| henrynash | david8hu: so you cannot cahneg the policy file as a domain admin…but the idea is that if yoru cloud provider has created a nice fine-grained policy file, you can use DSRs to better model what those mean to your users | 18:28 |
| ayoung | I kindof agree that what henrynash is working for here is due to the groups concept being taken, but really what we want. This is an internal mapping step, from individual user to role assignment | 18:28 |
| samueldmq | gyee: so you basically want to expand the role entity, rather than creating a new first citizen in keystone , | 18:28 |
| ayoung | I really don't want a new concept. EIther go with DSRs, or rework groups | 18:29 |
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| henrynash | samuedlmq, gyee: and of course that’s what the current DSR is….a special tyoe of role (that has a domain_id set) | 18:30 |
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| gyee | henrynash, not really, we don't enforce it on the policy side | 18:30 |
| gyee | since they don't return in token response | 18:31 |
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| henrynash | gyee: and absolutely don’t want them to…this is a pro onot a con | 18:31 |
| samueldmq | gyee: that'd cause headaches, we'd need to keep list of implied roles synced with endpoints ,etc | 18:31 |
| ayoung | groups might be a little strange. When the assertion comes in, you would have REMOPTE_USER and REMOTE_GROUPS set. You'd make REMOTE_GROUPS to groups in the users own domain...or in any other domain...and the REMOTE_USER to group mapping would be either from the Federation mapping, or an explicit Federated user to group mapping from... where? | 18:31 |
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| henrynash | gyee: I have to ask you again to read what I posted in the review….I really do not see the confusion of DSRs not goiong in the token | 18:31 |
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| ayoung | So, I kindof like DSRs as the abstraction, because they are Keystone specific data, not identity. | 18:32 |
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| gyee | henrynash, if your support person comes to you and ask why don't they get that role as it was seemingly assigned, what do you do? | 18:33 |
| ayoung | I'd like to point out that this is why David CHadwick origianlly wanted the mapping to go from the assertion all the way to the roles, and to skip the group concept. | 18:33 |
| ayoung | gyee, that was why I was asking about diagnostic APIS. I think we would want that | 18:33 |
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| henrynash | gyee: so you have to think through teh scenario….the domain admin and project admin will know what the roels are | 18:34 |
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| gyee | and figure out which DSRs to assign in order to get some specific role | 18:34 |
| ayoung | #link https://openstack.nimeyo.com/66396/openstack-dev-keystone-diagnostic-apis-for-keystone | 18:34 |
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| henrynash | (sorry to past this, but I already write this out): | 18:34 |
| henrynash | 1) A public cloud provider wants to attract as many, diverse customers as possible | 18:34 |
| henrynash | 2) To do that, they are likely to offer a flexible, fine-grained set of roles that are encoded in policy rules | 18:34 |
| henrynash | 3) As part of the on-boarding of a customer (represented as a domain), they will give the domain admin the spec of what roles they must assign their used to give the permission to execute various APIs. These are set by the cloud provider, the domain admin has no control over this. | 18:34 |
| henrynash | 4) Without DSRs the domain admin will either use this list or explain this list to their project admins for project within their domain. They'll work out (and probably circulate internally) how the set of roles defined by the cloud provider shod map onto what every usage model they have | 18:34 |
| henrynash | 5) With DSRs, they'll encode that model in DSRs and use those (or tell their project admins to use those). So they'll be fully aware of what roles are cloud provider roles and which are DSRs. | 18:34 |
| henrynash | …hence I don’t see the confusion | 18:34 |
| samueldmq | gyee: DSRs should have very suggestive names (as they can be customized), so not too hard to realize that ? | 18:35 |
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| gyee | samueldmq, its the working backward part, from token response | 18:36 |
| ayoung | henrynash, I think that any of us that spend time on the issue will come up with a similiar solution. The real issue is what do we call them, and how do we implement without retolling the entire UI. | 18:36 |
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| ayoung | If we assume Federation as the starting point (ID in SQL or LDAP is simpler) then there are several layers of indirection | 18:37 |
| ayoung | Assertion->identiyt (users, groups)->role assignments. DSR adds an additional layer | 18:37 |
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| ayoung | Assertion->identiyt (users, groups)->DSRs->globalrole assignments. | 18:37 |
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| henrynash | ayoung: agreed | 18:37 |
| stevemar | it would be an entry in the shadow table, preferably | 18:38 |
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| ayoung | So, I stand firm on not wanting to add a new abstraction (rokle groups) but am flexible on which of the layers we modify | 18:38 |
| ayoung | stevemar, not quite | 18:38 |
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| ayoung | it would be keyed by the shadow talbes User iD, but these are additional layers of assignment | 18:38 |
| stevemar | gyee: your issue with the current API is that policy will be hard to write? | 18:38 |
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| gyee | stevemar, DSRs still constraint by global roles | 18:39 |
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| gyee | so if you make your policies and global fine grained that's fine | 18:39 |
| gyee | global roles | 18:39 |
| gyee | like one to one | 18:39 |
| lbragstad | i think gyee's problem is that it's hard to tell what your DSR is from the token response | 18:39 |
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| gyee | one global role per API or something | 18:40 |
| henrynash | For me, although I origionally propes role-groups 18 months ago and fought against implied roles for a while, amd convinced that our current (merged) DSR approach is the one we should do for. | 18:40 |
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| samueldmq | DSR (and implied roles) is about easing the way you assign global roles | 18:40 |
| gyee | but I can't restrict domain-admin from seeing all the global roles | 18:40 |
| henrynash | gyee: in the end, that’s probably where it goes, but with some “cloud wide” grouping encoded in the policy file by teh cloud provdier | 18:40 |
| samueldmq | if you, as a deployer, don't think it does, just don't use it ? | 18:40 |
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| stevemar | gyee: OK | 18:42 |
| henrynash | gyee: that’s a different problem | 18:42 |
| ayoung | I think we are going to want a diagnostic API no matter what solution we come to here | 18:42 |
| gyee | samueldmq, so what kind of role can someone assign? | 18:42 |
| stevemar | gyee: the current suggested API is just a new attribute to the roles API, it's pretty minimal, we can get away with have that option be experimental for 1 release | 18:42 |
| samueldmq | gyee: one (who is allowed to assign roles) can assign either global roles or DSR (from his domain) to someone else | 18:42 |
| gyee | if someone have permission to assign roles, what kind of roles can they assign? | 18:42 |
| henrynash | gyee: I’m not trying to solve role hiding here | 18:42 |
| stevemar | we can see how it works out and if it sucks, we can go to another design | 18:42 |
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| gyee | stevemar, sure, make it experimental then | 18:43 |
| stevemar | gyee: the proposed spec is minimally invasive, let's try it out first | 18:43 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:43 |
| david8hu | Can domain admin assign the "admin" role to himself? | 18:43 |
| henrynash | aren’t all major new featiures experiemental | 18:43 |
| stevemar | gyee: yep, we can add that to the documented APIs | 18:43 |
| gyee | stevemar, I am not worry about the implementation part, its all code | 18:43 |
| gyee | its the APIs that I am loosing sleep over | 18:44 |
| gyee | implement can be changed anytime | 18:44 |
| gyee | implementation | 18:44 |
| stevemar | gyee: right, but let's try it out first, if we dont like the API, we can rework it a bit since it's experimental | 18:44 |
| stevemar | just like we did with service providers | 18:44 |
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| ayoung | david8hu, in order to solve what you are implying, we need the unified delegation spec | 18:45 |
| stevemar | gyee: we cool? | 18:45 |
| bknudson | yea, we coo' | 18:45 |
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| gyee | stevemar, sure, as our role assignment is pretty messy as is right now :) | 18:45 |
| ayoung | david8hu, unified delegation says "a user can only assign(delegate) roles that they themself have" | 18:45 |
| stevemar | alright :) | 18:45 |
| topol | cool | 18:45 |
| stevemar | ayoung: gonna give davechen some time | 18:45 |
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| stevemar | #topic need to support delete/get V3 endpoints via V2 API | 18:46 |
| henrynash | absolutely agree on it being experimental - all majoe new features should be experimental to start - that’s what we agreed a while back | 18:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "need to support delete/get V3 endpoints via V2 API (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:46 | |
| ayoung | gyee, ponder over whether you would be happier with a modification to mapping or groups abstactions than this | 18:46 |
| stevemar | davechen: you've got about 10 minutes, sorry | 18:46 |
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| davechen | okay, | 18:46 |
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| ayoung | why do we need to do anything via V2? | 18:46 |
| davechen | it's fine, i am just wondering if we could support to do that. | 18:46 |
| gyee | ayoung, I don't want role groups | 18:46 |
| bknudson | let's not support this in v2 api | 18:46 |
| davechen | support get/del endpoint via v2 api | 18:46 |
| davechen | but it's currently possible to list v3 endponints | 18:47 |
| davechen | by v2 api | 18:47 |
| david8hu | ayoung, I have a usecase that combo of DSR and UD will solve. | 18:47 |
| stevemar | how much work is it? just a few lines? | 18:47 |
| davechen | so, it's looks a little werid that we cannot get or delete. etc. | 18:47 |
| ayoung | davechen, I'd be more prone to say "allow V3 API modify V2 stuff" than the reverse. No changes to V2 if we can avoid it. | 18:47 |
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| lbragstad | at the summit we had the opposite discussion in our deprecation session i think? | 18:48 |
| bknudson | keystone v2 can be a little weird. | 18:48 |
| davechen | ayoung: just keep it as is? | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | we wanted to deprecate/remove everything that wasn't absolutely required v2 (like auth and validate) | 18:49 |
| stevemar | davechen: if a user is adding endpoints in v3, then how likely is it that they'll list endpoints with v2? | 18:49 |
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| davechen | bknudson: i agree that we should no add new ability for v2 api | 18:49 |
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| rderose | davechen: what is the risk if we keep it as is? | 18:49 |
| davechen | stevemar: i am not saying add, but get and delete | 18:49 |
| ayoung | why delete? | 18:49 |
| lbragstad | rderose just the inconsistency? | 18:49 |
| ayoung | ignoring get for the moment | 18:50 |
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| stevemar | rderose: i think the risk is pretty low | 18:50 |
| davechen | ayoung: just from end use's persepctive, you can see these endpoint but you can do noting about it | 18:50 |
| stevemar | do we have a bug about this? | 18:50 |
| davechen | is that make sense? | 18:50 |
| davechen | stevemar: not yet | 18:50 |
| bknudson | you can do something about it. use the v3 api and do it | 18:50 |
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| gyee | davechen, look, no touch OK :) | 18:50 |
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| davechen | gyee: don't touch it? | 18:51 |
| davechen | :) | 18:51 |
| dstanek | davechen: how often are people actually modifying/deleting endpoints? | 18:51 |
| davechen | dstanek: not quite often, i think | 18:51 |
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| lbragstad | modifying and deleting v3 endpoints through the v2 api | 18:51 |
| stevemar | davechen: unless someone is actually running into this error, then i say don't bother fixing | 18:51 |
| davechen | dstanek: but it quite often for get | 18:51 |
| dstanek | stevemar: ++ | 18:52 |
| ayoung | davechen, reserving admin for V3 for any lingering V2 isms is a better bet | 18:52 |
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| davechen | get some info for specific endpoints | 18:52 |
| dstanek | devananda: get works for things with a publicURL right? | 18:52 |
| ayoung | you can read old data, or new data in an old format, but you need to use the new format to change it. | 18:52 |
| davechen | stevemar: gotcha | 18:52 |
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| stevemar | i think it's settled that this is a `won't fix` issue | 18:52 |
| dstanek | stevemar: yey! | 18:53 |
| stevemar | #topic champions | 18:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "champions (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:53 | |
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| stevemar | i wanted to share something i've been using to keep track of work | 18:53 |
| stevemar | heres a google doc for anyone to comment on: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MD1WJNasuDkDFstK6kgfZiA7SkIGKdH6n69AoVaTy1g/edit?usp=sharing | 18:53 |
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| stevemar | cores, add yourself as "champions" meaning you *will* review the spec | 18:54 |
| stevemar | err implementation* | 18:54 |
| stevemar | i'll be keeping track of links for implementation, somehow, probably a gist | 18:54 |
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| gyee | stevemar, you'll be adding MFA? | 18:54 |
| stevemar | try not to over commit yourself | 18:55 |
| henrynash | stevemar: like it | 18:55 |
| stevemar | gyee: yes, it was blessed just 30 minutes ago LO | 18:55 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: great idea! | 18:55 |
| stevemar | :P | 18:55 |
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| bknudson | also, leave lots of room for reviewing bug fixes. | 18:55 |
| bknudson | because we still have to do that, too | 18:55 |
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| stevemar | thats the goal | 18:55 |
| stevemar | bknudson: on that note... | 18:55 |
| stevemar | i've updated LP to reflect ALL of our deliverable for mitaka: https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/mitaka-2 | 18:55 |
| stevemar | so far nothing is in mitaka-3 | 18:56 |
| stevemar | mitaka-2 ends in ~45 days | 18:56 |
| henrynash | stevemar: the one thing I would add is maybe the Phase 1 of reseller (projects acting as toplevel domains)….althoug the spec was approved in a previous cycle, most of the code is up for review in M | 18:56 |
| gyee | wow, the slots are filling up, fast | 18:56 |
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| stevemar | feel free to add more slots ... i don't mind additional champs :) | 18:56 |
| lbragstad | gyee do you want to champion the mfa stuff? | 18:57 |
| stevemar | so please HAVE a patch up for review BEFORE MITAKA-2 ENDS! | 18:57 |
| gyee | lbragstad, yes | 18:57 |
| stevemar | otherwise it'll get booted to N :) | 18:57 |
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| stevemar | if the patch is not yet merged, we can still land stuff in M3, even though it was targeted for M2 | 18:57 |
| amakarov | stevemar, ayoung I expect unified delegation code to be finished in mitaka timeframe, and the problem is that spec is being modified in the process. Should I just do what I do now and propose everything in N release? | 18:58 |
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| stevemar | amakarov: that sounds like a good plan | 18:58 |
| stevemar | we can slide that right into N1 | 18:58 |
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| stevemar | i don't want to overcommit ourselves | 18:58 |
| amakarov | stevemar, ok | 18:58 |
| bknudson | functional testing is not on the doc | 18:58 |
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| bknudson | python3 support is not on the doc | 18:59 |
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| stevemar | bknudson: it's "ongoing" at the bottom of the doc | 18:59 |
| stevemar | both are | 18:59 |
| lbragstad | yep | 18:59 |
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| bknudson | what's ongoing? | 18:59 |
| bknudson | how is that different than the other work? | 18:59 |
| stevemar | bknudson: they span many releases | 18:59 |
| * lbragstad high fives bknudson | 18:59 | |
| samueldmq | stevemar: fyi: I am grabbing functional tests on keystoneclient | 18:59 |
| lbragstad | tag team online migrations! | 18:59 |
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| bknudson | we're not planning to complete these for M? | 18:59 |
| ayoung | amakarov and if there are any pre-reqs we can do in M that are non-disruptive, we can merge them when they are ready. | 18:59 |
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| stevemar | bknudson: ideally we should | 19:00 |
| dstanek | stevemar: python3 shouldn't it should be completed in M | 19:00 |
| stevemar | out of time! | 19:00 |
| stevemar | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 19:00:10 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| ayoung | Having the spec reflect the code is ++ | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-12-08-18.01.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-12-08-18.01.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-12-08-18.01.log.html | 19:00 |
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| stevemar | keystoners, roll out! | 19:00 |
| fungi | infra team, assemble! | 19:00 |
| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 19:00:25 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:00 |
| AJaeger | \o/ | 19:00 |
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| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:00 |
| fungi | we have a _very_ full agenda so i'm going to timebox the topics and rearrange the order a little to make sure we hit scheduling-critical discussions | 19:00 |
| SotK | o/ | 19:00 |
| fungi | if i cut you off in the middle of discussing something, please don't take offense and make a note to continue with it on the mailing list or in the infra channel after we're done | 19:00 |
| fungi | now, on with the show! | 19:00 |
| fungi | #topic Announcements [timebox 1 minute, until 19:01] | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements [timebox 1 minute, until 19:01] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| fungi | #info Reminder: Gerrit 2.11 upgrade is now scheduled for Wednesday of next week, December 16, 17:00 UTC. | 19:01 |
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| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081037.html | 19:01 |
| jhesketh | o/ | 19:01 |
| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting [timebox 1 minute, until 19:02] | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting [timebox 1 minute, until 19:02] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| cody-somerville | \o_ | 19:01 |
| asselin_ | o/ | 19:01 |
| clarkb | hello | 19:01 |
| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-12-01-19.01.html | 19:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 19:01 |
| fungi | nibalizer: send announcement about rescheduled gerrit upgrade maintenance | 19:01 |
| fungi | completed, see above | 19:01 |
| fungi | #topic Specs approval [timebox 1 minute, until 19:03] | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval [timebox 1 minute, until 19:03] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
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| fungi | PROPOSED: Complete the reviewable release automation work (dhellmann) | 19:02 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/245907 | 19:02 |
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| pabelanger | o/ | 19:02 |
| fungi | #info Voting is open on the "Complete the reviewable release automation work" spec until 19:00 UTC Thursday, December 10. | 19:02 |
| ruagair | I/ | 19:02 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : I'm not sure what the process is, but if you want to discuss it in the meeting I'm here for that | 19:02 |
| dhellmann | otherwise comments on the spec work, too | 19:03 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: if we weren't so short on time, yes | 19:03 |
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| fungi | but in this case, comments on the review please | 19:03 |
| dhellmann | fungi : understood | 19:03 |
| fungi | #topic Mid-cycle sprint for infra-cloud in Ft. Collins proposal (pleia2, jhesketh) [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:13] | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mid-cycle sprint for infra-cloud in Ft. Collins proposal (pleia2, jhesketh) [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:13] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| fungi | during the mitaka priorities discussion in tokyo, it was pointed out that infra-cloud is one of the biggest efforts we've undertaken as a team, and that organizing a mid-cycle sprint around it would useful | 19:03 |
| fungi | the timing is convenient since it's just after hpcloud sunset and we've got the possibility of inheriting a fair amount of replacement hardware/upgrades from that | 19:03 |
| fungi | pleia2 has done an awesome job (along with wendar and purp) of negotiating access for contributors to tour the facility where our west region of infra-cloud is housed, so this makes hp's fort collins site an excellent location for a sprint | 19:03 |
| fungi | late february, say the last week in february, would probably work out best? it doesn't conflict with lca and so far i don't see any february sprints scheduled in the wiki | 19:03 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints#Mitaka_sprints | 19:03 |
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| fungi | jhesketh has offered to take point coordinating logistics for this | 19:03 |
| jeblair | ++ | 19:03 |
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| anteaya | last week of feb also misses ansible fest dates according to the dates mordred posted in a prior meeting | 19:04 |
| jhesketh | Yep, so probably we just need to get an indication if end of Feb in ft Collins is a good idea or if there are any strong objections | 19:04 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: thanks for checking | 19:04 |
| anteaya | last week of feb works for me | 19:04 |
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| anteaya | good idea | 19:05 |
| fungi | i'm strongly in favor | 19:05 |
| jhesketh | +1 | 19:05 |
| jeblair | also skiing | 19:05 |
| fungi | heh | 19:05 |
| fungi | ttx will want to come! | 19:05 |
| clarkb | works for me, does anyone know if flaying to FNL is doable or is DEN the best bet? (probably getting ahead of myself iwth that question) | 19:05 |
| pleia2 | greghaynes, crinkle, does this work for you? | 19:05 |
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| greghaynes | I wouldnt be able to make feb, but I also am pretty unlikely to make any of the possible dates | 19:06 |
| greghaynes | (baby incoming) | 19:06 |
| anteaya | clarkb: Sam-I-Am would know | 19:06 |
| pleia2 | greghaynes: ah, right | 19:06 |
| fungi | so just to confirm, the proposal is for fort collins, colorado, usa, the week of february 22, 2016 | 19:06 |
| crinkle | if we made it march-ish maybe greghaynes would be more able to pbx in? | 19:06 |
| anteaya | he flies small aircraft out of denver | 19:06 |
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| crinkle | feb works for me | 19:07 |
| clarkb | as someone that just babied I highly recommend against rytrying to do that in march | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | do they have those telepresence robots at ftc? | 19:07 |
| greghaynes | crinkle: possible. I wouldnt plan around me - I will do my best to call in but I cant really promise anything about any dates around then | 19:07 |
| anteaya | jeblair: not that I have seen | 19:07 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:07 |
| crinkle | greghaynes: mmk | 19:07 |
| anteaya | jeblair: just speaker phones | 19:07 |
| rcarrillocruz | wfm end of Feb | 19:07 |
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| fungi | march is also starting to close in on cycle end and summit prep, which is why we were thinking earlier | 19:08 |
| jeblair | we'll get a little wagon to pull a speakerphone around on. | 19:08 |
| fungi | also, how many and which days should we be considering for this? | 19:08 |
| pleia2 | thinking 3-5, but I don't know which in that range is best | 19:08 |
| anteaya | I think we have said in the past optimum time for a mid-cycle is 3 days | 19:08 |
| clarkb | early week is best for me | 19:08 |
| pleia2 | by day 5 I get very useless and tired | 19:09 |
| anteaya | folks get tired by end of day 3 | 19:09 |
| jhesketh | I'd say min of 3 to make it worth the trip | 19:09 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: ++ | 19:09 |
| pleia2 | jhesketh: yeah | 19:09 |
| fungi | monday through wednesday? with thursday as an option? | 19:09 |
| rcarrillocruz | erm | 19:09 |
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| rcarrillocruz | yeah | 19:09 |
| jeblair | we should be thinking of this as dedicated single-topic workdays | 19:09 |
| rcarrillocruz | less than 3 | 19:09 |
| jeblair | so hopefully not as exhausting | 19:09 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:09 |
| rcarrillocruz | would be killing for non-US people | 19:09 |
| clarkb | (it is easier for us to get help with babies early week due to family schedules) | 19:09 |
| jhesketh | Attendance for the whole thing is also clearly optional. So we could aim for 4 and have a light schedule | 19:09 |
| pabelanger | 4 days works here | 19:09 |
| greghaynes | actually, SpamapS ^ | 19:10 |
| fungi | jeblair: very good point, we'll have to make sure we plan the topic->day mapping to make it a little less exhausiting | 19:10 |
| greghaynes | SpamapS: This is relevant to your interests | 19:10 |
| jeblair | 4 with understanding that some may have to leave after 3 sounds like it might work | 19:10 |
| rcarrillocruz | yeah, 4 seems like a good sweet spot to me | 19:10 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: agreed | 19:10 |
| anteaya | monday-wednesday with optional thursday is my vote | 19:10 |
| rcarrillocruz | ^ ++ | 19:10 |
| jhesketh | Or even people start rolling in late/finishing early etc throughout the week | 19:10 |
| jeblair | (and skiing on friday) | 19:11 |
| jhesketh | As they tire | 19:11 |
| anteaya | jeblair: has to be | 19:11 |
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| krotscheck | o/ | 19:11 |
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| jhesketh | Okay so I can take an action to work with pleia2 on the logistics and announcing etc | 19:12 |
| fungi | we've got one more minute budgeted for this topic. are we at consensus or do we need to flesh out details on the infra ml? | 19:12 |
| fungi | thanks jhesketh! | 19:12 |
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| anteaya | I'm feeling heard on this topic | 19:12 |
| jhesketh | Assuming pleia2 is happy to help with the office side | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | skiing! | 19:12 |
| jeblair | i'm done | 19:12 |
| fungi | #action jhesketh finalize omfra-cloud sprint planning details on the infra ml | 19:12 |
| jhesketh | Heh :-) | 19:13 |
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| anteaya | omfra-cloud | 19:13 |
| greghaynes | I like omfra-cloud, makes it sound epic | 19:13 |
| fungi | #undo | 19:13 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x9736910> | 19:13 |
| rcarrillocruz | heh | 19:13 |
| crinkle | i am in favor of calling it omfra-cloud | 19:13 |
| anteaya | loving the new words | 19:13 |
| fungi | #action jhesketh finalize infra-cloud sprint planning details on the infra ml | 19:13 |
| jeblair | oomfra loompahs? | 19:13 |
| krotscheck | ommmmmmmmmfra cloud? | 19:13 |
| * fungi is a terrible typist | 19:13 | |
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| jhesketh | Aww | 19:13 |
| anteaya | good typos | 19:13 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts: Gerrit 2.11 Upgrade [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:23] | 19:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Gerrit 2.11 Upgrade [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:23] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:13 | |
| fungi | zaro: are we still on track for next week? looks like there's still quite a few open changes needing reviews... | 19:13 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:gerrit-upgrade,n,z | 19:13 |
| zaro | yes, just need reviews. | 19:13 |
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| zaro | i cherry-picked what i thought were the most important fixes for 2.11 onto our 2.11.4 branch. | 19:14 |
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| mordred | o/ | 19:15 |
| clarkb | did we end up deciding on what fix we would use for the openid redirects? notmorgan's proxypass vhost change? | 19:15 |
| anteaya | yes | 19:15 |
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| zaro | i believe notmorgan is the best solution | 19:15 |
| anteaya | I believe that is what is hand configured on review-dev now | 19:16 |
| notmorgan | \o/ | 19:16 |
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| zaro | anteaya is correct | 19:16 |
| jeblair | oh cool, notmorgan you were able to do the thing you hoped you would be able to do that fixes it in apache without breaking the initial redirect? | 19:16 |
| notmorgan | Yep! | 19:16 |
| fungi | zaro: i also noted that we've still got some pending cleanup for the "akanada" typo from the last rename maintenance. i'm worried our cruft projects database cleanup step to fix indexing will end up misinterpreting that as a missing project, so i assume we should fix it at the start of the maintenance? | 19:16 |
| fungi | mainly want to make sure that ends up as part of the maintenance plan if so | 19:17 |
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| * jeblair hands notmorgan a case of booze he filched from mordred | 19:17 | |
| zaro | fungi: i can look into that if you can provide another dump of the db. | 19:17 |
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| fungi | zaro: get up with me after the meeting and i absolutely will--thanks! | 19:17 |
| * mordred warns notmorgan it's not booze in there, but apple juice he used to make it look like he drinks less | 19:17 | |
| notmorgan | mordred: ahh. I see. | 19:18 |
| krotscheck | "apple juice" | 19:18 |
| * krotscheck is skeptical | 19:18 | |
| mordred | krotscheck: ++ | 19:18 |
| clarkb | so its mostly just reviews then? | 19:18 |
| jeblair | fungi: i agree we should attempt to not screw that up. :) | 19:18 |
| * clarkb makes note to do reviews | 19:18 | |
| anteaya | clarkb: yes | 19:19 |
| zaro | clarkb: correct | 19:19 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-infra-gerritdevelopment | 19:19 |
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| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/test-gerrit-2.11 | 19:19 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gerrit-2.11-upgrade | 19:20 |
| fungi | (the planning bits) | 19:20 |
| fungi | we have 2 more minutes for this. anything else we need to cover or remind in preparation for next week? | 19:21 |
| anteaya | I'm happy | 19:21 |
| fungi | do we need a reminder notice to the ml closer to the window? | 19:21 |
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| anteaya | can't hurt | 19:21 |
| fungi | like at the beginning of the week? | 19:21 |
| notmorgan | fungi: reminder never hurts | 19:21 |
| zaro | i have nothing else. | 19:21 |
| fungi | since it's in the middle of a wednesday and all, there are likely those who will be taken by surprise | 19:22 |
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| jeblair | yeah, also, things seem _busy_ now. | 19:22 |
| AJaeger | can we get it into the weekly newsletter? | 19:22 |
| fungi | AJaeger: we should get thingee to add it to his dev digest, yes | 19:22 |
| fungi | nibalizer: do you mind following up on your maintenance notice with a reminder on mondayish too? | 19:22 |
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| nibalizer | can do | 19:23 |
| fungi | #action fungi get gerrit maintenance included in thingee's dev digest | 19:23 |
| fungi | #action nibalizer send follow-up gerrit maintenance reminder | 19:23 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts: Infra-cloud [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:33] | 19:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Infra-cloud [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:33] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:23 | |
| crinkle | hi | 19:23 |
| fungi | oof, a lot of stuff here on the agenda. crinkle, can you run through this real quick? | 19:23 |
| crinkle | yes | 19:23 |
| mordred | omfra-cloud! | 19:23 |
| fungi | ;) | 19:24 |
| crinkle | there is a small cloud up that rooters can log into and poke at | 19:24 |
| mordred | \o/ | 19:24 |
| crinkle | I would like help reviewing topic:infra-cloud and I need rooters to help get DNS and hiera stuff set up | 19:24 |
| anteaya | yay | 19:24 |
| crinkle | I had some discussion items but I can bring those up after the meeting | 19:24 |
| crinkle | fungi: done | 19:24 |
| jeblair | can we point a nodepool at it? | 19:24 |
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| fungi | crinkle: wow, fast! | 19:24 |
| jeblair | just to exercise it? | 19:24 |
| fungi | i'm happy to volunteer to do the dns bits, unless someone else wants that | 19:24 |
| crinkle | jeblair: we'd need a user and possibly sec groups and stuff but yes | 19:25 |
| nibalizer | oo cloud | 19:25 |
| crinkle | also nibalizer had a policy issue that i haven't looked at yet | 19:25 |
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| clarkb | ++ to pointing nodepool at it | 19:25 |
| mordred | would anyone mind me creating two non-admin users on it for Shrews and I to do functional shade testing against it? | 19:25 |
| crinkle | mordred: go for it | 19:25 |
| jeblair | can anyone else point nodepool at it? | 19:25 |
| jeblair | i'm trying to keep my plate clear for zuulv3 for a little bit | 19:25 |
| nibalizer | im interested in learning how to do that | 19:26 |
| jeblair | (doesn't have to be prod nodepool, can be a private nodepool) | 19:26 |
| * mordred can help nibalizer | 19:26 | |
| nibalizer | sweet | 19:26 |
| jeblair | cool, i'll be backup help | 19:26 |
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| pabelanger | I can help if needed | 19:26 |
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| asselin_ | I have a private nodepool as well we can use. I can also help. | 19:26 |
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| mordred | crinkle: so does that mean that the stack of infra-cloud patches should land now? | 19:26 |
| fungi | nodepool people are coming out of the woodwork--glad i didn't volunteer! ;) | 19:27 |
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| crinkle | mordred: there are a couple of blockers there | 19:27 |
| mordred | ooh. neat. nibalizer you might get higher bandwidth from asselin_ | 19:27 |
| crinkle | but at least getting feedback on them would be good | 19:27 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:27 |
| nibalizer | cool | 19:27 |
| clarkb | I am also happy to help | 19:27 |
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| clarkb | its dead simple to make nodepool and point at cloud | 19:28 |
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| nibalizer | crinkle: you'll create users for me or I'll be doing that myself? | 19:28 |
| clarkb | (devstack plugin in tree should be a good example of how that looks step by step) | 19:28 |
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| crinkle | nibalizer: you do it and if you have the same issue i'll help | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | kk | 19:28 |
| Clint | o/ | 19:29 |
| mordred | crinkle: where are the creds to log in to the cloud found? | 19:29 |
| nibalizer | mordred: we must make our users | 19:29 |
| fungi | our ssh keys are installed on the bastion | 19:29 |
| crinkle | mordred: the IP is 15.184.52.4 and your rooter key is on it, and the cloud credentials are in /root/adminrc | 19:29 |
| mordred | thanks | 19:29 |
| mordred | /root/adminrc was what I was looking for | 19:29 |
| fungi | beyond that, it's a self-service pump | 19:30 |
| mordred | yup | 19:30 |
| * mordred can pump | 19:30 | |
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| fungi | what name did we end up giving this first region? | 19:31 |
| mordred | RegionOne | 19:31 |
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| fungi | swell--just like bluebox! | 19:31 |
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| * notmorgan is reminded that he needs to look over those configs. | 19:31 | |
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| greghaynes | we put our most creative minds to work on coming up with that name | 19:32 |
| rcarrillocruz | heh | 19:32 |
| crinkle | heh that's just default, we can change it | 19:32 |
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| fungi | so the region rcarrillocruz and yolanda are hacking on is RegionTwo? | 19:32 |
| jeblair | we'll fix that with the mirror rename... but we should also rename it i think | 19:32 |
| mordred | how about hpuswest - to match what's in the hostname | 19:32 |
| jeblair | didn't we say we could start with vanilla? | 19:32 |
| rcarrillocruz | yeah, east in HP naming | 19:32 |
| crinkle | ya it should be hpuswest | 19:32 |
| clarkb | or regionb | 19:32 |
| clarkb | :) | 19:32 |
| rcarrillocruz | i'd rather call it hpuswest / hpuseast yeah | 19:32 |
| mordred | clarkb: _that_ would be confusing :) | 19:33 |
| crinkle | lol | 19:33 |
| rcarrillocruz | indeed | 19:33 |
| rcarrillocruz | :-) | 19:33 |
| mordred | oh! | 19:33 |
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| mordred | there is a service running we don't need | 19:33 |
| fungi | #info Our initial infra-cloud region is accessible to Infra root admins, and the next phase of acceptance testing will be exercising via nodepool and glean. | 19:33 |
| * mordred learns how to remove things with the puppet ... | 19:33 | |
| AJaeger | hpeuswest ? | 19:33 |
| mordred | 2. there are 2 services we do not need | 19:33 |
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| clarkb | mordred: which services? | 19:33 |
| mordred | crinkle: after the meeting, I would like to learn enough about the puppet to learn how to remove "ec2" and "computev3" | 19:34 |
| fungi | there's some time budgeted for open discussion at the end of the meeting too if we need | 19:34 |
| * mordred knows he can delete them from the catalog in keystone | 19:34 | |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts: Store Build Logs in Swift [timebox 1 minute, until 19:34] | 19:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Store Build Logs in Swift [timebox 1 minute, until 19:34] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:34 | |
| mordred | but wants to use this to learn more about our setup | 19:34 |
| fungi | looks like this is primarily a request from jhesketh to review a blocking change, so for the sake of time i'll link it here and skip ahead | 19:34 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/254718 | 19:34 |
| fungi | was there anything else urgent with that, jhesketh? | 19:34 |
| jhesketh | Yep no need to waste more time, just getting some eyes would be good :-) | 19:35 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts: maniphest migration [timebox 1 minute, until 19:35] | 19:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: maniphest migration [timebox 1 minute, until 19:35] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:35 | |
| fungi | similarly, a few blocking reviews for this which ruagair wants to highlight | 19:35 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:maniphest,n,z | 19:35 |
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| ruagair | Yes. | 19:35 |
| ruagair | Morning. | 19:35 |
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| ruagair | airporting so I'll be interrupted. | 19:35 |
| fungi | ruagair: i didn't budget additional time for this topic, mostly just reminding people to review those | 19:36 |
| notmorgan | mordred: ++ | 19:36 |
| fungi | hope that's okay | 19:36 |
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| ruagair | Yes. | 19:36 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts: Zuul v3 [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:40] | 19:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Zuul v3 [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:40] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:36 | |
| fungi | jeblair: you had a couple of (hopefully quick) items here | 19:36 |
| jeblair | i have created the feature/zuulv3 branch on zuul and i will do the same for nodepool after the builder changes land | 19:36 |
| jeblair | since we're on a branch, i'd like to take the approach of rapidly sketching out the basic work on zuulv3 by focusing on the simple case and breaking everything else -- skipping tests, etc. | 19:36 |
| jeblair | but not *removing* tests -- after the basics are there, we can work on getting it back into shape. this way we can see the whole thing take shape and find any big design flaws early | 19:36 |
| jeblair | (basically, facebook it at first and then knuth it later) | 19:36 |
| jeblair | i plan to focus heavily on this and will be less available for interrupt-driven work for a while | 19:36 |
| jeblair | if others can pick up any new-provider work that pops up, that would be great (though there isn't much of that right now) | 19:36 |
| jeblair | [end of pastebomb] | 19:36 |
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| mordred | ++ | 19:37 |
| fungi | hah on facebook-to-knuth | 19:37 |
| clarkb | my only ocncern is that its really hard to review nodepool and zuul changes without tests | 19:37 |
| clarkb | I worry that we might not understand the general shape if we don't have something there to point out where it isn't working yet and where it is working | 19:37 |
| pabelanger | I actually plan to running zuulv3 locally as soon as possible. So, I don't mind providing feedback from a test POV | 19:38 |
| fungi | maybe a zuul-dev continuous deployment from that feature branch? | 19:38 |
| jeblair | clarkb: in my first change, i have one test working. | 19:38 |
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| clarkb | or run the tests non voting so reviewres can at least look at the results | 19:38 |
| jeblair | that's enough for me to see the general approcah | 19:38 |
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| clarkb | (instead of skipping them entirely) | 19:38 |
| jeblair | clarkb: sure, they'll break and timeout | 19:38 |
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| jeblair | (i'm talking tests, not jobs) | 19:38 |
| * SpamapS arrives late after double-booked call | 19:39 | |
| jeblair | my hope is by using this approach, we can avoid giant patches | 19:39 |
| greghaynes | The skipping test - that is just to land things in the zuulv3 branch? | 19:40 |
| fungi | and lots more tests toward the end? | 19:40 |
| jeblair | lots of small patches that are easier to work with, even though they may not work in all cases, but then followup patches that will flesh things out more and fix more cases | 19:40 |
| jeblair | greghaynes: yes, only in the v3 branch | 19:40 |
| clarkb | I juts know that experience has said the hurry up and test later process doesn't work that well | 19:40 |
| clarkb | that doesn't necessarily mean we can't do better this time around, but I am concerned about it | 19:40 |
| jeblair | fungi: yes, certainly we would not merge the feature branch until it is robust | 19:40 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: the other approach does not work for us for large changes | 19:41 |
| clarkb | I think we can do small changes and have tests | 19:41 |
| jeblair | we have spent 6-8 months on nodepool and zuul changes that are *much* smaller in scope than this | 19:41 |
| greghaynes | one other thing that I have noticed while doing the nodepool builders is that bugfixes which conflict with the patch series are *extremely* easy to accidentally regress on (you fix the merge conflict but dont copy the fix in to your copied out code) | 19:41 |
| mordred | yeah - I agree with jeblair | 19:41 |
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| clarkb | we may not have every test working but if we add in tests specific to zuulv3 we can see they work and watch the existing tests converege to working | 19:41 |
| mordred | this isn't intended to be incrementally working | 19:42 |
| greghaynes | so one suggestion I would have is to also make sure any zuul bugfixes have tests for that fix while we work on zuulv3 | 19:42 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: yes and the problem with nodepool has been we have had to backhaul tests in that did not exist | 19:42 |
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| clarkb | the large changes have trouble because the safety net is missing | 19:42 |
| mordred | the whole point of the v3 work was so that we can clean slate it | 19:42 |
| jeblair | clarkb: yes, i plan on focusing only on tests that immediately exercise the code being written | 19:42 |
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| clarkb | yup I am fine with tests failing and clean slating | 19:42 |
| mordred | cool | 19:42 |
| clarkb | I am just saying we should continue to run the tests | 19:42 |
| clarkb | not skip them | 19:42 |
| greghaynes | ah, if it is that big of a code removal then the bugfix thing is not as relavent | 19:43 |
| jeblair | clarkb: that does make it harder to merge | 19:43 |
| clarkb | jeblair: but only when the change in question breaks tests that shouldn't break? | 19:43 |
| jeblair | clarkb: i want to break all the tests | 19:44 |
| jeblair | except one | 19:44 |
| fungi | i guess it's a question of how closely tied the current tests are to zuul v2 internals and design | 19:44 |
| fungi | v3 isn't aiming to be backward-compatible | 19:44 |
| jeblair | i want "test_jobs_launched" to work | 19:44 |
| fungi | afaik | 19:44 |
| clarkb | in particular with nodepool we have done a lot of work recently to add tests in and fix bugs | 19:44 |
| clarkb | but because the code is already merged there is less interest in reviewing and getting that code in | 19:44 |
| jeblair | i don't care about anything else right now... later on, i want to make sure each test either works or is altered or removed as appropriate for the new design | 19:45 |
| mordred | right. I tihnk this is different than that | 19:45 |
| clarkb | mordred: we are saying upfront don't write tests till the end | 19:45 |
| jeblair | clarkb: oh no | 19:45 |
| clarkb | but at that point if everything is merged why will anyone care? | 19:45 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Do you need help making the web side of zuulv3 pretty? | 19:45 |
| jeblair | clarkb: we should write tests as we go | 19:45 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ok I misunderstood then I thought you were saying no tests | 19:45 |
| clarkb | jeblair: until some undetermined point in the future | 19:45 |
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| krotscheck | s/need/want/ | 19:46 |
| clarkb | (which we know doesn't work well) | 19:46 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: i'm saying zuul has 200 tests i don't care about right now | 19:46 |
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| fungi | cool, contention clarified. i let the discussion run longer than budgeted to make sure that was settled | 19:46 |
| jeblair | fungi: ack | 19:47 |
| fungi | #topic Mirror efforts (krotscheck, greghaynes) [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:52] | 19:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mirror efforts (krotscheck, greghaynes) [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:52] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:47 | |
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| krotscheck | Spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252678/ | 19:47 |
| krotscheck | First patch in chain: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/253236/ | 19:47 |
| krotscheck | All the patches: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+branch:master+topic:unified_mirror,n,z | 19:47 |
| krotscheck | [eopb] | 19:47 |
| fungi | mordred: you were working with greghaynes on the last steps of the pypi mirror builder deployment? | 19:47 |
| fungi | rather, pypi wheel builder | 19:47 |
| greghaynes | fungi: We had to rework our plan after some issues were discovered in the patches | 19:47 |
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| mordred | yah | 19:48 |
| * mordred is awaiting further instructions from krotscheck and greghaynes | 19:48 | |
| krotscheck | Right, so the whole thing is now a unified mirror effort. | 19:48 |
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| greghaynes | Yep, step1 is now getting buy in on the spec | 19:48 |
| krotscheck | All patches are dependent on the spec merging. | 19:48 |
| krotscheck | The big infra-root effort starts when https://review.openstack.org/#/c/238754/ lands. | 19:49 |
| krotscheck | So, go forth and review :) | 19:49 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/238754 | 19:49 |
| jeblair | i am not sure we can accomodate that amount of space everywhere | 19:49 |
| fungi | so we're delaying the wheel mirror deployment based on needing further design work and a new spec? | 19:50 |
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| jeblair | the spec looks good and i think we can still proceed | 19:51 |
| krotscheck | fungi: Yeah, there were a couple of things pointed out in the wheel work that made it not work so well. | 19:51 |
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| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/252678 | 19:51 |
| greghaynes | fungi: Yes - what came up is we shouldnt be spinning up new nodes for wheel mirrors given that we have a goal of mirrors using a single host | 19:51 |
| fungi | well, we were spinning up new job workers to do the on-demand wheel building | 19:52 |
| fungi | (per platform) | 19:52 |
| clarkb | jeblair: if we end up not having that space maybe we should look into some version of global load balancing | 19:52 |
| fungi | but i'll look over the spec | 19:52 |
| clarkb | and use the nodes where we do have the resources as the backends | 19:52 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: or distributed filesystems or caching http proxies | 19:53 |
| fungi | #topic Infra "holiday party" knowledge transfer virtual sprint (anteaya) [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:58] | 19:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Infra "holiday party" knowledge transfer virtual sprint (anteaya) [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:58] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:53 | |
| jeblair | clarkb: but we should probably proceed with this plan first | 19:53 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Maybe ^^ makes the most sence. Basically an infra mirror CDN | 19:53 |
| clarkb | jeblair: agreed | 19:53 |
| anteaya | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/infra-holiday-party-2015 | 19:53 |
| anteaya | so we don't get to see each other in person to celebrate the holiday | 19:54 |
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| anteaya | so I thought we could try something online | 19:54 |
| fungi | <insert preferred holiday> | 19:54 |
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| anteaya | you aren't obliged if this isn't your thing | 19:54 |
| pleia2 | that's sweet :) | 19:54 |
| anteaya | but I thought we could try something | 19:54 |
| pabelanger | fungi: festivus for the rest of us | 19:54 |
| fungi | i thought it was a neat idea | 19:54 |
| clarkb | I will be out all day on the 21st, have babysitter and star wars tickets | 19:54 |
| anteaya | the etherpad offers my thoughts | 19:54 |
| clarkb | no spoilers! | 19:54 |
| anteaya | you are welcome to add yours | 19:54 |
| anteaya | I suggested 3 days | 19:55 |
| fungi | currently all o fthe listed days work for my schedule | 19:55 |
| jeblair | clarkb: darth vader is luke's father | 19:55 |
| pleia2 | all work for me (my tickets are for the 17th) | 19:55 |
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| anteaya | please vote on your preference and include reasons you will be out a certain day if you will | 19:55 |
| anteaya | clarkb: okay star wars counts | 19:55 |
| fungi | i'm not expecting to disappear until teh 23rd, since i have a lot of ground to cover in a car over the subsequent 5 days | 19:55 |
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| anteaya | that was all for meeting time, I think the rest can take place on the etherpad | 19:56 |
| anteaya | thank you | 19:56 |
| fungi | so i'll be not at all around 23-27 | 19:56 |
| * krotscheck will be sipping mai thai's during all those days, which is sortof like a holiday. | 19:56 | |
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| * krotscheck does not plan on being online :) | 19:56 | |
| fungi | krotscheck: that's my idea of a holiday anyway | 19:56 |
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| jeblair | krotscheck: that's not a normal day? :) | 19:56 |
| fungi | jeblair: normal day is just shots | 19:56 |
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| krotscheck | jeblair: Normal day involves internet :D | 19:56 |
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| fungi | paper drink umbrellas are for special occasions | 19:57 |
| * jeblair tops up | 19:57 | |
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| pleia2 | I'll be around through the holidays | 19:58 |
| pleia2 | for some reason no one schedules conferences then | 19:58 |
| fungi | so the one objection was for the 21st. we can go with either the 18th or the 22nd? | 19:58 |
| anteaya | I thinnk it is the perfect time | 19:58 |
| anteaya | few tourists | 19:58 |
| clarkb | fungi: +1 18th | 19:58 |
| pleia2 | I like the 18th | 19:58 |
| fungi | i'd lean toward the 18th. we can celebrate the (successful!) gerrit upgrade | 19:58 |
| anteaya | either is fine | 19:58 |
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| pleia2 | and celebrate star wars | 19:58 |
| anteaya | happy to lean toward the 18th | 19:59 |
| zaro | i'm ok with any | 19:59 |
| fungi | #action anteaya plan an infra virtual sprint for knowledge transfer and holiday festivity, friday, december 18th | 19:59 |
| pleia2 | thanks anteaya! | 19:59 |
| anteaya | 00:00 utc on the 18th until 23:59 utc? | 19:59 |
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| anteaya | can do | 19:59 |
| anteaya | welcome | 19:59 |
| fungi | #topic Open discussion [timebox 30 seconds, until 20:00] | 19:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion [timebox 30 seconds, until 20:00] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:59 | |
| anteaya | other activity suggestions welcome | 19:59 |
| fungi | heh--i promised open discussion and i delivered! | 19:59 |
| Zara | :) | 20:00 |
| fungi | and now we're out of time--thanks everyone! | 20:00 |
| *** hashar is now known as hasharAway | 20:00 | |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 20:00:13 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-12-08-19.00.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-12-08-19.00.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-12-08-19.00.log.html | 20:00 |
| AJaeger | wow ;) | 20:00 |
| AJaeger | fungi, we're speechless ;) | 20:00 |
| fungi | ttx: all yours | 20:00 |
| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
| jhesketh | Thanks fungi, great job! | 20:00 |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 20:00 |
| dougwig | lol fungi | 20:00 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:00 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:00 |
| * dougwig lurks | 20:00 | |
| * edleafe lurks suspiciously behind a tree | 20:00 | |
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| ttx | russellb, mestery, annegentle, lifeless, flaper87, dtroyer, markmcclain, jeblair, jaypipes: around ? | 20:01 |
| dtroyer | o/ | 20:01 |
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| flaper87 | o/ | 20:01 |
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| russellb | hi | 20:01 |
| devananda | \o | 20:01 |
| annegentle | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 8 20:01:27 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:01 |
| ttx | Hi everyone! | 20:01 |
| russellb | mestery sends his regrets | 20:01 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:01 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:01 |
| * flaper87 is connected through H+ (tethering) | 20:01 | |
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| flaper87 | expect some lag :D | 20:01 |
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| ttx | russellb: good, we'll freely bitch about the Neutron stadium then | 20:02 |
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| annegentle | oh my | 20:02 |
| ttx | But let's start with another topic | 20:02 |
| ttx | #topic Should DefCore explictly require running Linux as a compute capability | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Should DefCore explictly require running Linux as a compute capability (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-tc/2015-December/001085.html | 20:02 |
| annegentle | an even more fun topic! | 20:02 |
| ttx | Do we have anyone wanting to introduce the topic ? | 20:03 |
| sdague | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/244782/ the critical review in question | 20:03 |
| ttx | hogepodge maybe | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | markvoelker: ? | 20:03 |
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| sdague | I can proxy if neither of them are here | 20:03 |
| markvoelker | Sure, if hogepodge isn't around.... | 20:03 |
| zehicle | o/ | 20:03 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 20:03 |
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| markvoelker | #link https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q_N93hJ-8WK4C3Ktcrex0mxv4VqoAjBzP9g6cDe0JoY/edit | 20:03 |
| ttx | Also a report of what happened at the last board meeting could be helpful | 20:03 |
| sdague | ok, looks like we've got hogepodge & markvoelker | 20:03 |
| hogepodge | and zehicle | 20:03 |
| annegentle | hey hogepodge zehicle markvoelker | 20:03 |
| ttx | since it was discussed there (and no report was done yet) | 20:03 |
| russellb | last board meeting was mostly informational for board members, no real action to report IMO | 20:04 |
| * markvoelker yields the floor to hogepodge since he got this on the agenda for the day | 20:04 | |
| * zehicle waves in an OS agnostic way | 20:04 | |
| russellb | some opinions expressed, but no consensus or any real new perspectives | 20:04 |
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| sdague | so, given that some tc members might not be fully up on the topic, it would be good to have a summary presented | 20:04 |
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| * mordred also sent an email to the tc list recently if you haven't seen it | 20:04 | |
| sdague | before we get to discussion | 20:04 |
| * ttx throws interop tests at hogepodge | 20:04 | |
| * markmcclain sneaks in late | 20:04 | |
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| dhellmann | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-tc/2015-December/001088.html mordred's email | 20:04 |
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| hogepodge | Some tempest tests used for defcore implicitly require linux | 20:05 |
| sdague | clarification: requires Linux guests be running on the cloud | 20:05 |
| hogepodge | This has raised the question of if booting Linux should be an explicitly required capability for passing Defcore interoperability tests. | 20:05 |
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| sdague | because they attempt to log into those guests after booting them to ensure that the OS actually is on the network, and the cloud is working | 20:05 |
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| ttx | I kinda like mordred's vision of it, but it goes a bit beyond the question (i.e. requires image upload) | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | do those tests boot the image using a hard-coded name? | 20:06 |
| mordred | yah. it's a test of the inbound API presented by the cloud to the guest | 20:06 |
| zehicle | clarification: since those tests ARE required now, Linux guests are required until fix/flag the tests or change the rules | 20:06 |
| hogepodge | sdague: correct, it checks # cpus, hostname, and other capabilities | 20:06 |
| russellb | i'd be curious what disagreements there are with mordred's position | 20:06 |
| sdague | dhellmann: no, the image_ref is specified in tempest.conf | 20:06 |
| russellb | could save some time with just restating agreement there | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | sdague : ok | 20:06 |
| mordred | russellb: ++ | 20:06 |
| hogepodge | zehicle: a guest could possibly wrap the commands and pass | 20:06 |
| clarkb | I do wonder why we keep saying "linux" when really its just a small set of tools that could run on unix or cygwin right? eg maybe we should say ssh, ifconfig, etc are required and not worry about the kernel ? | 20:07 |
| zehicle | russellb, people want to keep image upload and what runs in guest as different concerns | 20:07 |
| ttx | I'm fine supporting mordred's line | 20:07 |
| mordred | I mean, I knowit goes beyond the specific question, but if we're all in agreement with the one-step-past position, it will make the situation pretty clear | 20:07 |
| clarkb | but it is simpler to say "linux" | 20:07 |
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| dhellmann | russellb : I agree with mordred's email | 20:07 |
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| sdague | right, but I think this brings up the more important heart and soul of what it means to be OpenStack, there are lots of technical ways to work around this, but the point is we don't really want to do that | 20:07 |
| hogepodge | clarkb: yes, that's more accurate to say, but most linux distros give you the tools outright. | 20:07 |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:07 |
| russellb | sdague: ++ | 20:07 |
| hogepodge | clarkb: as would linux containers | 20:07 |
| ttx | mordred: I think it's a good medium-term goal yes | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | well, if the test requires the cloud to be able to boot a linux guest and there isn't one, we need to be able to boot one | 20:08 |
| annegentle | clarkb: that's helpful, thanks | 20:08 |
| zehicle | clarkb, we could and ignore the larger question. it's worth discussing the broader question too | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | yeah, let's not identify technicalities that let someone bypass this and just more clearly declare the intent | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | and I think that's why mordred also mentioned uploading an image | 20:08 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: agreed, this is about intentions | 20:08 |
| sdague | right, because what is an OpenStack application going to look like in the future that you'd want to take off the shelf and apply to a cloud | 20:08 |
| ttx | but I'll admit I'm not 100% clear on why we are asking this question. Is that because someone wants to call a cloud that can't bnoot a Linux VM "an OpenStack cloud" ? | 20:08 |
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| mordred | ttx: yes | 20:08 |
| hogepodge | flaper87: so a container-based openstack cloud would fail on that point | 20:08 |
| russellb | yes, solaris zones | 20:08 |
| sdague | ttx: yes, see the link to the review | 20:08 |
| annegentle | ttx: precisely | 20:09 |
| jeblair | i agree with morderd and sdague on the goals and roasoning | 20:09 |
| jeblair | i think it's an important clarification -- it's important that a user *be able to run anything*, including linux, which happens to be the most common factor in the hardware/os matrix | 20:09 |
| sdague | it's in there in pretty specific detail | 20:09 |
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| markvoelker | YEah, one of the points that's been brought up is that we already have a way to identify required capabilities for OpenStack Powered(TM) clouds. So if we think "can boot linux" should be a required capability, perhaps we should just use them. | 20:09 |
| ttx | mordred, sdague I read it -- was checking that was the only reason why the question was asked | 20:09 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair : I would be happy to support going further, if we had tests for other operating systems | 20:09 |
| mordred | markvoelker: I'd love that | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | hogepodge: can a linux container be uploaded ? I think that's good as well | 20:09 |
| markvoelker | Which means we score that capability against the 12 Criteria, etc. | 20:09 |
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| russellb | i think "can boot linux" is the wrong thing to say. it's "can provide full machine virt" | 20:09 |
| jeblair | russellb: ya | 20:10 |
| mordred | yah | 20:10 |
| hogepodge | flaper87: a container cloud can't boot cirros, though. It's a distinction | 20:10 |
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| mordred | "can boot linux" is an easy way to _verify_ full machine virt | 20:10 |
| clarkb | russellb: that certainly clears up any confusion I might have had | 20:10 |
| sdague | russellb: well, maybe, it's really "can show up with own arbitrary image" | 20:10 |
| markvoelker | russellb: sure, both have brought up | 20:10 |
| mordred | tht does not present an undue burden | 20:10 |
| mordred | but it is a detail | 20:10 |
| sdague | which baremetal also supports | 20:10 |
| annegentle | russellb: that's a good clarification | 20:10 |
| annegentle | we also need to realize that defcore is a lookback | 20:10 |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:10 |
| ttx | OK, I think the TC's opinion is requested and we seem to be OK holding the line where mordred eloquently set it. | 20:10 |
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| russellb | yep, baremetal is fine with me too | 20:10 |
| russellb | ttx: ++ | 20:10 |
| markvoelker | FWIW, baremetal will fail other tests anyway IIRC | 20:10 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:11 |
| ttx | I'm not sure how to best formalize that | 20:11 |
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| russellb | TC resolution? | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | ttx: ++ | 20:11 |
| jeblair | russellb: ++ | 20:11 |
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| russellb | witha a formal vote | 20:11 |
| mordred | ttx: there was a suggestion on the list for a resolution | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | russellb : ++ | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | russellb: ++ | 20:11 |
| ttx | markvoelker, hogepodge: would you require a TC resolution ? | 20:11 |
| markmcclain | ++ | 20:11 |
| jeblair | let's write it up and vote | 20:11 |
| hogepodge | there are capabilities we check for that bare metal will fail. | 20:11 |
| zehicle | ttx, technical community also needs to be aware of issue from a fix test perspective too. Or add tests to make intent clear | 20:11 |
| zehicle | DefCore is limited to what exists as tests | 20:11 |
| russellb | I don't like saying "fix test" | 20:11 |
| markvoelker | IMHO not necessary since DefCore is Board body, but helpful. | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | hogepodge : there's no need to conflate VM and baremetal. Separate tests, separate things, separate capabilities. | 20:11 |
| russellb | because that implies it's broken :) | 20:11 |
| persia | Just as a point of curiosity, would taking this position mean that clouds that currently support non-x86 architectures would no longer meet the test, or is that just an interim position from mordred? | 20:12 |
| mordred | I think we can write a resolution that captures this | 20:12 |
| ttx | zehicle: right -- this originally comes from a a test, but what we affirm here is that that was actually a good thing | 20:12 |
| russellb | right, i don't think TC resolution is required, but a very helpful way of formally adopting a position communicated in important cases like this | 20:12 |
| mordred | persia: iterim | 20:12 |
| hogepodge | dhellmann: it's making a statement that OpenStack Powered is VM only, which is important. There are some opinions that OpenStack should be about compute in general. Just want to make sure that point is raised. | 20:12 |
| persia | Ah, so existing multiarchitecture clouds may comtinue to claim to be compliant? | 20:12 |
| ttx | I think that will let us come up with clear wording that represents our position | 20:12 |
| jeblair | yes, if we want to say "the tc feels this way" we should vote on a resolution | 20:12 |
| ttx | (a resolution) | 20:12 |
| mordred | persia: if they can boot the linux needed for the test, sure | 20:12 |
| ttx | mordred: feeling ready to draft it ? | 20:12 |
| sdague | hogepodge: I think the spirit is the user can show up with their own image and get that to work, and being able to run Linux, as it is a free and open OS, is very reasonable validation of that | 20:12 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | persia : yes, the point isn't that all of your cloud supports this feature, it's that some part of your cloud supports it | 20:12 |
| markvoelker | So, FYI it's currently too late to add stuff to the Guideline that goes up for a vote in January. Next one will go up for a vote in July, so if folks want to take some time to craft their opinions there is some time | 20:12 |
| mordred | ttx: yeah. I'll write it | 20:13 |
| mordred | ttx: I can just clean up the email | 20:13 |
| zehicle | ttx, I don't think the current test is a good way to ensure the objectives being stated here. it's really a side effect. | 20:13 |
| russellb | mordred: thanks! | 20:13 |
| ttx | We can iterate on it on the review all week | 20:13 |
| markvoelker | The more urgent thing is just to decide whether we grant the flag request for this Guideline. | 20:13 |
| persia | I know of no multiarchitecture clouds that do not have x86 flavours, making that easy. | 20:13 |
| ttx | and vote on it last week | 20:13 |
| sdague | persia: yes, an OpenStack can do more things | 20:13 |
| zehicle | DefCore will do better with explicit tests so we can create and score capabilities | 20:13 |
| flaper87 | damnit, too much lag here. I can help with the resolution | 20:13 |
| mordred | markvoelker: I would request that you do not | 20:13 |
| sdague | but there is some base commonality | 20:13 |
| russellb | tests can be improved, but i think avoiding a step backward here is important | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | russellb : ++ | 20:13 |
| mordred | markvoelker: there is nothing broken in the test, nor any intent on the part of the tech community to alter it | 20:13 |
| russellb | defcore is admittedly already such a low bar, let's not lower it more | 20:13 |
| flaper87 | oh, mmh, mordred took it already | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | zehicle : one of those scoring criteria is also "future technical direction", which we're trying to give you | 20:14 |
| zehicle | dhellmann, that's true. | 20:14 |
| mordred | markvoelker: admitting the flag would imply that the thing being flagged is a potential issue, and it's not a door that is likely to change in the direction the flag is requesting any time in the forseeable future | 20:14 |
| sdague | markvoelker: I believe there is pretty clear voice on that flag requests should not be approved | 20:14 |
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| zehicle | we discussed having "runs Linux" "runs Windows" and "runs Solaris" capabilities. that would be VERY explicit | 20:14 |
| markvoelker | Also FWIW, one thing that came out of the Board meeting is that there are some very different opinions on what "interoperability" means. Some seem to think it should stop at the API, others expect full workload portability, etc. | 20:14 |
| ttx | zehicle: agreed. I think what was a side-effect needs to have its own clear capabilities/tests | 20:14 |
| markvoelker | May not change anyone's minds, but worth considering: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/UnofficialBoardNotes-Dec3-2015 | 20:14 |
| ttx | if we are to follow that road | 20:14 |
| sdague | markvoelker: we can make that part of the TC resolution if you don't think it's clear enough with the 3 TC -1s on the review | 20:15 |
| russellb | "stop at the API" is meaningless to me | 20:15 |
| russellb | if you can't say anything about expected input and output, what the heck does that mean | 20:15 |
| sdague | russellb: ++ | 20:15 |
| russellb | anyway .. | 20:15 |
| mordred | markvoelker: anybody who thinks it stops at the API | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | russellb : ++ | 20:15 |
| mordred | markvoelker: has never run antyhing on a cloud | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | certainly not 2 clouds | 20:15 |
| mordred | markvoelker: and CERTAINLY has not run anything on multiple clouds | 20:15 |
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| russellb | mordred: ++ | 20:15 |
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| sdague | that means the nova unit tests could be an OpenStack (tm) | 20:15 |
| * zehicle recalls that API vs Implementation has always been a challenge for DefCore discussions [e.g. designated sections] | 20:15 | |
| mordred | zehicle: yup | 20:15 |
| flaper87 | russellb: ++ | 20:15 |
| hogepodge | mordred: we can flag in waiting for test or functionality improvements, and we have done that in the past. In this case the flag wouldn't eliminate a capability, but defer testing until the suite is "better". I'm not advocating any position, just trying to clarify the process. | 20:15 |
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| sdague | hogepodge: right, and I think the point is we explicitly don't want this | 20:16 |
| mordred | hogepodgetotally. but I think the entirety of the TC is saying "the test is not broken and is by design" | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | hogepodge : I would not expect this test to be changed at all. | 20:16 |
| mordred | hogepodge: so, we _could_ do that | 20:16 |
| mfisher_ora | hogepodge: that's like exactly why I submitted the patch... | 20:16 |
| mordred | but the test is spot on | 20:16 |
| russellb | +1 | 20:16 |
| ttx | I don't see the point in disabling a test that ends up having the side-effect of testing something we also want | 20:16 |
| mfisher_ora | The test is fine, I just want it to not use hard coded commands | 20:16 |
| annegentle | ttx: agreed | 20:17 |
| mordred | mfisher_ora: but we're saying that those commands are not going to change | 20:17 |
| hogepodge | I guess my position is that "boot linux" needs to have a test so we can test for it as a capability. That is my preference, and I would be happy to work with qa to write that test. | 20:17 |
| sdague | mfisher_ora: right, and we disagree with you | 20:17 |
| ttx | I agree with zehicle it should end up having its own test if that's something we want | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | hogepodge : ++ | 20:17 |
| mordred | mfisher_ora: because upstream cannot test changed commands | 20:17 |
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| ttx | rather than just being another test sideeffect | 20:17 |
| mordred | and we do not accept changes we cannot test | 20:17 |
| mfisher_ora | sdague, mordred: yep, we get that now | 20:17 |
| markvoelker | ttx: I'm fine with tests depending on things that are also required, the bone here is that "boot linux as a full-virt guest" currently isn't. So a useful conversation has ensued. =) | 20:17 |
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| zehicle | ttx, that is not a consensus position. some see that it is a side effect as reason enough to kill it | 20:17 |
| russellb | it's consensus here :) | 20:18 |
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| mordred | mfisher_ora: thank you, by the way, for highlighting the issue and diving in to this with us | 20:18 |
| russellb | which is what we're trying to arrive at | 20:18 |
| russellb | TC opinion to communicate back | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | zehicle : as I said before, we are trying to clarify the technical direction as intended by the contributors. Are you getting that feedback from contributors? | 20:18 |
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| zehicle | russellb, clearly. wanted to speak for other points of view I've heard | 20:18 |
| mfisher_ora | mordred: uh I'd say no problem, but obviously I'm a little disappointed at the moment :) | 20:18 |
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| mordred | mfisher_ora: sure - totally understand :) | 20:18 |
| zehicle | dhellmann, DefCore has a very broad audience. | 20:18 |
| russellb | mordred: we might want to address some of these common other opinions in the resolution | 20:18 |
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| mordred | russellb: happy to | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | zehicle : I think maybe you give too much weight to some of them. | 20:19 |
| russellb | mordred: maybe it's covered well enough in your mail, i'll think it over again and comment on resolution if i think of something | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | zehicle : but that's a discussion for another day, I think | 20:19 |
| mordred | russellb: thanks! | 20:19 |
| zehicle | dhellmann, my goal is to hear that from everyone. then I know I got it right | 20:19 |
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| sdague | zehicle: the right answer isn't the median one | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | sdague : ++ | 20:19 |
| ttx | OK, I think we can move on. mordred will draft a resolution to formalize the TC's position on that question | 20:20 |
| ttx | we'll hopefully iterate on it fast enough to be able to vote it next week | 20:20 |
| zehicle | sdague, totally agree! point is to hear and understand everyone. | 20:20 |
| lifeless | ttx: o/ | 20:20 |
| hogepodge | Thanks for your time and attention everyone. It's great to see the community input to defcore. | 20:20 |
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| lifeless | ttx: had some ECHILD at top of the hour, sorry | 20:20 |
| flaper87 | hogepodge: ++ | 20:20 |
| mordred | zehicle: ++ | 20:20 |
| ttx | lifeless: That happens | 20:20 |
| ttx | lifeless: That happens | 20:20 |
| * zehicle thanks TC for being direct and vocal. it helps discussion to have a position taken | 20:20 | |
| ttx | It's good that we seem to have consensus on a position too | 20:21 |
| ttx | could have turned out a lot less clear | 20:21 |
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| mordred | zehicle: it's not every day we can be this clear :) | 20:21 |
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| ttx | Alright, moving on to the other topics | 20:21 |
| pbredenb1 | yes, quite clear. thank you. | 20:22 |
| annegentle | I think cloud providers want to serve customers, and customers benefit from a clear understanding. | 20:22 |
| * dhellmann puts a big red circle around today on the calendar | 20:22 | |
| flaper87 | mordred: lol, unfortunately, that's true :D | 20:22 |
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| ttx | zehicle: hogepodge markvoelker: thx | 20:22 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:22 | |
| ttx | We have a number of topics to cover in Open discussion | 20:22 |
| ttx | * Standardizes name of freezer service to match conventions | 20:22 |
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| ttx | This review (not needing formal vote) seems stuck: | 20:22 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/249788 | 20:22 |
| ttx | If we could come to an agreement on the color of that bikeshed and be done with it... | 20:22 |
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| mordred | I think we should store shovels in the shed | 20:23 |
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| annegentle | please :) | 20:23 |
| mordred | red shovels | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | I don't know what a "Recover service" is but if we get that changed to "Recovery" I think it looks fine | 20:23 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: ok | 20:23 |
| russellb | i'd like to recover some service | 20:23 |
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| ttx | Yeah I agree Recover doesn't make sense | 20:23 |
| annegentle | flaper87: did you find where freezer does disaster recovery? | 20:23 |
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| annegentle | flaper87: that was the other concern to address | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : that's what they said they're building | 20:23 |
| jeblair | (if you change it to recovery, do you need to change it to restoration?) | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : line 561 of the same file | 20:24 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: but. but... I couldn't find proof of it so do we publish that in the service name? | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: not in their code, but I did ping folks from the freezer team and asked them to chime in. | 20:24 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: so... | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | that didn't happen, unfortunately | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : I don't think we've asked that question of other projects? | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | I think the mission statement has it, though | 20:24 |
| annegentle | flaper87: ah ok. well thanks for following up | 20:24 |
| ttx | Backup, restore and recovery might not be 3 verbs, they are three operations of Freezer | 20:24 |
| ttx | So I'm fine with that | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | "prove you are building the thing you claim but haven't yet finished"? | 20:24 |
| sdague | yeh | 20:25 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: heh, well. ok. names without claims, we're ok with? | 20:25 |
| dhellmann | yeah, "backup and restore" is common parlance, if not good grammar | 20:25 |
| ttx | Restoration and Recover are not backupland concepts | 20:25 |
| lifeless | +1 to mordred's mail | 20:25 |
| annegentle | or claims in names | 20:25 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : trust? | 20:25 |
| flaper87 | yup, that's in their mission statement | 20:25 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: sure, seems fair to extend | 20:25 |
| annegentle | so, I'll change to Disaster Recovery and gtg? | 20:26 |
| ttx | annegentle: how strongly do you feel on verb consistency ? | 20:26 |
| ttx | annegentle: +1 | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : ++ | 20:26 |
| annegentle | ttx: I like it. A lot. But I'm bad at catching it early enough :) | 20:26 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: ++ | 20:26 |
| annegentle | ttx: and recovery/restore is particularly badly patterned in the industry | 20:26 |
| ttx | annegentle: probably why I don't care about that industry and use tar | 20:26 |
| annegentle | hee | 20:26 |
| ttx | Alright sounds like we have a way forward | 20:27 |
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| ttx | #agreed annegentle to change "Recover" to "Disaster Recovery" | 20:27 |
| annegentle | check! | 20:27 |
| jeblair | whew. i guess they can't always be as easy as the defcore topic can they? | 20:27 |
| sdague | freezer is really about recovering the cloud right? | 20:28 |
| sdague | it's not tenant backup/restore | 20:28 |
| flaper87 | hahahah | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | jeblair : it depends on the size of the shed, right? | 20:28 |
| ttx | covering teh last toipic first since the second one will likely take us until the top of the hour | 20:28 |
| ttx | * N/O naming status | 20:28 |
| sdague | just to make sure that distinction is out there | 20:28 |
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| ttx | We are now getting very late for the N naming, where voting was supposed to start 2015-11-30 | 20:28 |
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| ttx | mordred: need help with this one ? | 20:28 |
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| mordred | I will try to get to this today | 20:29 |
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| ttx | kewl. I don't care taht much about O | 20:29 |
| mordred | sorry - I'm running mildly behind | 20:29 |
| mordred | well | 20:29 |
| lifeless | ruhroh, ECHILD again. | 20:29 |
| mordred | I'm going to do them both at the same time | 20:29 |
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| ttx | sure, but if that is the main reason why it's late... better do N first | 20:29 |
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| anteaya | can we start N even if O is blocked for any reason? | 20:29 |
| flaper87 | that was the plan, AFAIR | 20:29 |
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| mordred | ttx: it's not. literally splitting a file into 20 smaller files and then propping my feet up to click "submit" 40 times is what I'm waiting on | 20:30 |
| mordred | neither are blocked by anything | 20:30 |
| mordred | I just suck | 20:30 |
| ttx | #agreed mordred will try to get to start the N/O voting today | 20:30 |
| * dhellmann hands mordred an intern | 20:30 | |
| ttx | that's all I wanted to hear. | 20:30 |
| annegentle | go go mordred | 20:30 |
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| dougwig | mordred: don't you have minions for that? | 20:30 |
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| ttx | :) | 20:30 |
| mordred | dougwig: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA | 20:30 |
| ttx | * The neutron stadium discussion | 20:31 |
| russellb | can i give some background and context on this one? | 20:31 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/080865.html | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | russellb: please | 20:31 |
| russellb | This started when Neutron split its drivers out into other git repos. I suggested those repos be adopted as officially part of Neutron. | 20:31 |
| ttx | Wanted to discuss this a bit -- I was a bit alarmed to hear the neutron PTL say he can't vouch for anything in the neutron "stadium" | 20:31 |
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| russellb | It has since grown to include other types of repos, so it's hard to generalize now. I attempted to start breaking down the different types here: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/080876.html | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | I read through the thredad but I wouldn't mind some background | 20:31 |
| russellb | The key point is that the Neutron PTL feels that the PTL/delegates can't appropriately track all of these efforts. How to deal with that is the question at hand. There are a few different possibilities in my view. | 20:31 |
| russellb | that's the tl;dr | 20:32 |
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| russellb | my opinion varies depending on which type of thing we're talking about | 20:32 |
| annegentle | russellb: is the outcome to avoid PTL overwhelms or to better manage expectations for stadium inclusion? | 20:32 |
| ttx | Currently we have governance reviews stuck because the PTL defers to others accepting new things into it (like mentioned on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/230699/) | 20:32 |
| sdague | so I would agree the stadium is pretty big at this point, it would be nice to have more things really stand on their own | 20:32 |
| ttx | We let project teams freely add repositories on the basis that the project team (and its PTL) are responsible for anything in them | 20:32 |
| russellb | there are some easy ones that should probably be independent | 20:32 |
| russellb | the least obvious is a basic neutron driver | 20:33 |
| ttx | It doesn't seem to be the case in the neutron stadium... | 20:33 |
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| anteaya | I wish armax were here | 20:33 |
| russellb | but right, if neutron says "we can't keep track" then we can split it all up, it honestly doesn't matter to me much | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | russellb : are you saying the driver should or should not be independent? | 20:33 |
| dougwig | note that armax is unavailable right now, and he'd like to be part of this discussion/decision. | 20:33 |
| sdague | however a lot of the advanced services, which would be really good to stand on their own, still directly import neutron code, which makes that hard | 20:33 |
| russellb | dhellmann: i'm saying it should not, it's a weird thing to set | 20:33 |
| annegentle | russellb: the categories are helpful | 20:33 |
| russellb | sdague: right. | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | russellb : ok, that's what I thought, I agree with that I think | 20:33 |
| ttx | dougwig: I don't expect a decision to be made, mostly get a temperature reading from the TC on that question | 20:34 |
| dougwig | sdague: right, so it can't happen immediately. | 20:34 |
| flaper87 | russellb: I agree a driver should not be independant | 20:34 |
| ttx | it's "open discussion" time after all | 20:34 |
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| markmcclain | sdague: there is work to make the shared neutron bits a true library | 20:34 |
| annegentle | dougwig: yeah this is for us to ensure we have understanding also | 20:34 |
| dougwig | no worries, just wanted to mention it. :) | 20:34 |
| annegentle | dougwig: oh absolutely :) | 20:34 |
| sdague | markmcclain: right, it just seems that should be the #1 priority at the moment, if it would help remove overload | 20:34 |
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| dougwig | markmcclain: ironically, via a stadium repo. :) | 20:35 |
| annegentle | markmcclain: would the categories change much if a shared library came to be? | 20:35 |
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| anteaya | part of the issue is that neutron has a workflow it sets out for the stadium and then should a member not follow that workflow it creates a lot more work | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | dougwig : I would expect that library to stay a stadium repo, no? | 20:35 |
| flaper87 | sdague: not sure about it being #1 prio but yeah, it'd be good for the project | 20:35 |
| anteaya | not only for neutron | 20:35 |
| dougwig | dhellmann: yes. | 20:35 |
| russellb | even making advanced services use a shared lib doesn't change the fact that they're tightly coupled to neutron | 20:35 |
| sdague | I guess I felt the split kind of happened backwards, and that more git repos without clear interfaces just creates more work for everyone | 20:35 |
| russellb | they run in the neutron-server process | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | sdague : ++ | 20:35 |
| sdague | russellb: right, that seems problematic | 20:35 |
| dougwig | russellb: well, that part is more easily broken than you'd think, since they can export their own endpoint, once the co-dependency is broken. | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | I think russellb's type clasification on that thread is great | 20:36 |
| sdague | could the be really, truely, stand alone processes? | 20:36 |
| dougwig | sdague: lbaas already is, via octavia. the plan is for neutron-lbaas in neutron-server to become a passthrough. | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | dougwig : is it likely that this problem is going to get worse (by adding more repos) before it gets better (by finishing that library work)? | 20:36 |
| sdague | dougwig: so why not a separate sc entry, why even a pass through? | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | sdague : backwards compat | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | ? | 20:37 |
| dougwig | sdague: both, for backwards compatibility, IMO. | 20:37 |
| russellb | i don't think the library helps here | 20:37 |
| sdague | dougwig: ok, like the volumes proxy in nova, I can live with that | 20:37 |
| annegentle | dougwig: wait, what does "export their own endpoint" mean? | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | russellb : oh, I thought that would be required for splitting the teams apart, but you think not? | 20:37 |
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| dougwig | dhellmann: i think most of the repo explosion was due to the vendor decomp, and that wave has likely crested. it'll be a trickle from here, until the lib is more mature. | 20:37 |
| sdague | russellb: yeh, it very well may not | 20:37 |
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| dougwig | annegentle: lbaas has a service endpoint in keystone. | 20:37 |
| dougwig | e.g. | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : new rest services | 20:37 |
| russellb | dhellmann: depends on what we're talking about. part of the library is for each of the plugin interfaces | 20:38 |
| sdague | I think the more important thing is to figure out how more things really stand on their own, don't run in the neutron processes, only use published neutron REST API to communicate with the rest of neutron | 20:38 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: but you can't have lbaas without neutron? Or is that where the shared library bit comes in? | 20:38 |
| ttx | Personally I'd like to see the neutron project team deliverables reduced to what the neutron team can handle, and teh rest split out into their own project teams (since that's what they actually are) | 20:38 |
| sdague | that gives the loose coupling to be independent | 20:38 |
| russellb | sdague: yes. | 20:38 |
| russellb | sdague: and there's only 1 example, maybe 2, of that. | 20:38 |
| dtroyer | ttx: ++ | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : that's where the shared lib comes in. lbass will need neutron, but neutron won't "contain" lbaas | 20:38 |
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| annegentle | dhellmann: got it. | 20:38 |
| ttx | The current situation feels like a bit of a bypass of our "are you OpenStack" review | 20:38 |
| dougwig | sdague: the lib is for stable, versioned internal interfaces, since we've kicked all the plugins out of core. | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ++ | 20:39 |
| ttx | and now we pay that price | 20:39 |
| anteaya | ttx: + | 20:39 |
| russellb | ttx: for which components specifically? | 20:39 |
| dougwig | lbaas needs neutron ports, but doesn't need to import neutron, IMO. | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | yeah, it's also muddying up the release stuff, as anteaya pointed out, when some of the teams don't follow processes | 20:39 |
| russellb | that is probably true for some things, but i don't think that's true for all. | 20:39 |
| sdague | dougwig: right, that seems like a more durable architecture | 20:39 |
| russellb | i think kuryr is the best example of something that should be independent | 20:39 |
| lifeless | ttx: sorry, afk for ~25m I suspect | 20:39 |
| russellb | but a little neutron plugin? meh. | 20:39 |
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| anteaya | perhaps a committee could be struck to work with neutron leadership to come up with a plan and details? | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | I think things consuming neutron should be (kuryr, for example) | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | should be independent* | 20:40 |
| russellb | everyone with opinions should really raise them on the thread btw | 20:40 |
| russellb | to include armax | 20:40 |
| sdague | I guess the question is, is the neutron team asking for help from beyond the team boundaries here? | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | russellb : drivers are ok, as long as the neutron team can actually manage the release processes for them. We've slowed down adding libs to oslo in part because as the number grew we started hitting issues tracking them all | 20:40 |
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| russellb | sdague: not formally, but it impacts the TC since it's blocking repo reviews, at least | 20:40 |
| ttx | russellb: I'm just saying that if the teams producing some of them are so separate the Neutron PTL doesn't want to hear about them, I think those should be dropped from governance and formally apply to become OpenStack project teams | 20:40 |
| sdague | it sounded like there was some overwhelming of folks, but things weren't super clear to me | 20:40 |
| anteaya | sdague: I didnt' get the sense they were | 20:41 |
| dougwig | just IMO, but i think we need to strike a balance between what should be separate/using strict interfaces, and still moving forward, since the former isn't ready yet. | 20:41 |
| russellb | ttx: yep, that's fine | 20:41 |
| dougwig | sdague: i think armax was raising the point to spark a discussion. | 20:41 |
| russellb | i'm actually OK with that at this point, it's not worth arguing over | 20:41 |
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| clarkb | as a user I like it when things that can run on instead of in cloud do so | 20:41 |
| russellb | i just think about it from a precedence POV too | 20:41 |
| sdague | ttx: yeh, I agree. Either the neutron team vouches for stuff, or those things aren't neutron, and shouldn't be included under it in governance | 20:41 |
| clarkb | then I am not stuck to the features the cloud deploys | 20:42 |
| russellb | do we want a new top level project for every driver of every project? | 20:42 |
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| dhellmann | dougwig : is there a plan to get things to a technical point to let neutron get past this governance issue? | 20:42 |
| russellb | if not? what's our guidance? | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | russellb : I don't think anyone is suggesting that | 20:42 |
| russellb | dhellmann: the original proposal suggested that | 20:42 |
| ttx | I think some groups will be very successful as independent teams. Some others will stay in neutron and be handled by the neutron team. And some others may struggle to adopt enough of the OpenStack Way to become recognized as their own project team | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | russellb : ok, anyone here | 20:42 |
| russellb | sure | 20:42 |
| ttx | but at least that's more in line with how we handle everything | 20:42 |
| sdague | well maybe the question is, what does the neutron core team feel comfortable vouching for, and make the governance list that. And it might open up a driver question. | 20:43 |
| russellb | ttx: yep, that's fine | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | russellb : the team needs to manage its growth so that it is only trying to take on work it can handle, and adding everything networking related to one team may not line up with that | 20:43 |
| dougwig | dhellmann: no, i think that's what armax is hoping to accomplish. the neutron-lib plan to break the co-dependency hell is targeted at mitaka/N, at which point some of this will happen organically. but i think he wants something more concrete. | 20:43 |
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| dhellmann | dougwig : ok, I think that's a mistake | 20:43 |
| ttx | russellb: With the caveat that sdague mentioned about interfaces not really being clean yet | 20:43 |
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| russellb | right, none of them are, really | 20:43 |
| russellb | it's fun | 20:43 |
| dougwig | dhellmann: want a concrete plan is a mistake? parse failure. | 20:44 |
| sdague | as someone whose spent a lot of time decoupling things in OpenStack.... it does not ever happen organically | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | dougwig : we have previously said that projects run by different teams talk to each other over rest interfaces as a way of clearly delineating boundaries | 20:44 |
| dougwig | true, true. | 20:44 |
| annegentle | sdague: not even with compost | 20:44 |
| sdague | it happens with a machette and a blow torch, and lots of sweat | 20:44 |
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| dhellmann | dougwig : splitting all repos to their own projects, but maybe I misunderstood you | 20:44 |
| ttx | sdague: I'd rather have the neutron team focus on cleaning those interfaces rather than handling everything in the neutron stadium though | 20:44 |
| sdague | ttx: sure | 20:45 |
| dougwig | dhellmann: agree, cutting everything loose is likely too far. | 20:45 |
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| ttx | At least that gives us a way out of the maze | 20:45 |
| annegentle | ttx: I'm with you on that, and it lets services give better thought to API design of their own service | 20:45 |
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| ttx | dougwig: I wouldn't say "everything". Just the things where the teams are so disjoint you don't feel confident about them | 20:46 |
| dougwig | dhellmann: the rest boundary is interesting. so, something that creates a neutron api extension, but is otherwise 100% separate, should never be a separate openstack project? even if it's neutron-related, but neutron isn't interested in managing it? they must have their own service endpoint? | 20:46 |
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| ttx | I bet there are a few things in that list of deliverables that have a lot of overlap with the "core" neutron team | 20:46 |
| russellb | if the neutron team doesn't like the API extension, i dont' think it should be in openstack at all | 20:46 |
| russellb | building some consensus around common APIs is kind of the point :) | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | dougwig : it's difficult to set a hard rule, but I would lean toward finding ways to add more independent services to the networking feature space and stop cramming everything into one service | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | also, what russellb said about extensions: +1 | 20:47 |
| russellb | "cramming everything into one service" is often required, because it all has to interact with the same network plumbing | 20:47 |
| sdague | russellb: agreed, I don't think anything should be extending the neutron API that isn't controlled by the neutron core team. | 20:47 |
| dougwig | not arguing. the way we do apis is just a lot of duplication and overhead, today. | 20:47 |
| annegentle | dougwig: extensions are awful for end user experience so I wouldn't advocate for those specifically but the neutron core API needs to be understandable/reviewable/consumable | 20:47 |
| russellb | it's complicated. | 20:47 |
| markmcclain | rest is hard for a few things... there also has to be a southbound code level defined interface otherwise we'll have a pyramid of rest for drivers for particular technologies | 20:48 |
| annegentle | russellb: "it depends" | 20:48 |
| ttx | russellb: you seem to have a pretty good handle on that issue, so maybe it's best to let you calmly come up with solutions there ? | 20:48 |
| russellb | ttx: i have my opinions, at least | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | russellb : sure, if they're tightly coupled they should be the same service. That doesn't sound like an extension, though. | 20:48 |
| russellb | i think it's on the neutron group in general to keep working through it | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | russellb : ++ | 20:48 |
| russellb | good for TC members to be aware of it though, and please weigh in if you'd like | 20:48 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:48 |
| annegentle | russellb: categories are a great way for them to discuss amongst themselves for starters | 20:48 |
| sdague | russellb: well, except we do hand off between services to get working network for a guest already with nova / neutron via rest things | 20:49 |
| sdague | it's harder, but it's doable | 20:49 |
| ttx | I'm not strongly on one specific solution anyway, I just don't think we can continue in the current situation | 20:49 |
| russellb | sdague: ah, right, the VIF plugging bit | 20:49 |
| russellb | the lines. they are blurry. | 20:49 |
| dougwig | sdague: isn't the vif plugging library meant to simplify that, though? | 20:49 |
| sdague | russellb: and the network proxy | 20:49 |
| russellb | ttx: agreed | 20:49 |
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| russellb | sdague: in the nova api? heh yeah | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | ttx: agreed. I'm worried about getting all of those things released if the neutron ptl/release liaison feel they can't manage them all | 20:49 |
| sdague | dougwig: there will still be per hypervisor code in nova for it as well | 20:50 |
| dougwig | if i'm hearing one thing today, it's that defining a hard boundary for a separate project is likely never going to substitute for a judgement call. | 20:50 |
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| ttx | #agreed let russellb drive and propose solutions to move away from the current deadlock | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I don't think we got milestones for most of them, for example | 20:50 |
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| annegentle | thanks russellb, it's good stuff | 20:50 |
| * russellb will start by giving armax another hug | 20:50 | |
| dougwig | dhellmann: most are marked release independent, and ping mestery when they want something put up, i think. | 20:51 |
| ttx | dhellmann: there is also the whole "I won't be ready at release time" thing making them release:independent | 20:51 |
| sdague | dougwig: right, but that mostly seems like a punt, because how does a consumer compose a working set of these things | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | dougwig : ok. I didn't see any on http://docs.openstack.org/releases/releases/mitaka.html so I don't know if they were released quietly or not at all | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | ttx: true | 20:51 |
| ttx | russellb: agreed. I actually am very thankful of armax for putting that dead fish on the table for everyone to see | 20:51 |
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| sdague | ttx: agreed, very thankful of armax kicking off this thread | 20:52 |
| russellb | armax: when you read this backlog, *hug* | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | there are a few on http://docs.openstack.org/releases/independent.html | 20:52 |
| dougwig | sdague: fair point. many are vendor code, further muddying it pu. | 20:52 |
| ttx | otherwise the issue would have gone underground for more time | 20:52 |
| dougwig | /pu/up/ | 20:52 |
| sdague | dougwig: right, so that all seems like remove from neutron stadium, and make no guaruntees about it | 20:52 |
| sdague | because that seems to be the actual state of things anyway | 20:53 |
| dougwig | note that i'm not arguing with y'all. the stadium does feel like it's gotten "too big" for its intended purpose to me, too. i just don't know what the end result should look like, or its timeline. | 20:53 |
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| ttx | sdague: yeah, it's about setting expectations more clearly. Currently we assume support due to being under the neutron project team, but that support is not really there | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | dougwig : understood | 20:53 |
| russellb | bar is/was quite low | 20:53 |
| ttx | Consider the floor open for other open discussion topics | 20:54 |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 20:54 |
| ttx | (we can continue on the neutron thing in parallel) | 20:54 |
| annegentle | dougwig: oh yes, I don't see this as argumentative at all, quite constructive | 20:54 |
| russellb | raising bar and evaluating against it adds up to a lot of work | 20:54 |
| russellb | that nobody is thrilled about doing | 20:54 |
| russellb | that's part of the deadlock | 20:54 |
| dougwig | ttx: it's neutron, the bikeshedding can never end on neutron. or else openstack might cease to exist. | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | heh | 20:55 |
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| markmcclain | haha | 20:55 |
| ttx | quantum physics after all | 20:55 |
| mordred | dougwig: I want to store shovels in neutron. red shovels | 20:55 |
| * fungi groans at ttx | 20:55 | |
| russellb | fwiw, i dont' think this is bikeshedding at all. | 20:56 |
| russellb | it's an important discussion about how openstack teams are operating in reality | 20:56 |
| annegentle | yeah this is team definition stuff | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | very true | 20:57 |
| russellb | and how best to organize and reflect it | 20:57 |
| annegentle | storming and norming! | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | this is exactly why the oslo team asked the os-win folks to start their own project team | 20:57 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: ah good parallel I might not have seen | 20:57 |
| ttx | not the same team, then not the same team. | 20:58 |
| dougwig | right now, it's a TC within a TC. | 20:58 |
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| russellb | dougwig: huh? | 20:58 |
| dougwig | armax is nipping it before it can form it's own mini-bureacracy. | 20:58 |
| dougwig | the stadium is its own governance model. | 20:59 |
| russellb | it's not so different than other projects with groups working on new APIs or new drivers ... | 20:59 |
| russellb | just that it's separate repos | 20:59 |
| ttx | Every time we tried to fit two separate project teams into a single one it failed. We created the big tent to escape that issue and remove the friction in creating new teams | 20:59 |
| russellb | thing is, once the separate repos exist, clearly not everyone looks at all of them | 20:59 |
| russellb | so ... now what | 20:59 |
| ttx | Oh well, time is up | 21:00 |
| annegentle | russellb: and who's responsible/accountable, etc. | 21:00 |
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| ttx | Thanks everyone, was a good one | 21:00 |
| russellb | kthxbai | 21:00 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 21:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 8 21:00:26 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:00 |
| annegentle | thanks all! | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-12-08-20.01.html | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-12-08-20.01.txt | 21:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-12-08-20.01.log.html | 21:00 |
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| dougwig | ttx: stadium slightly predates the passage of the tent, which i think might've influenced its evolution. it was trying to bypass some governance warts. | 21:01 |
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| ttx | dougwig: totally. It's a pre-tent workaround since we were stuck and neutron needed a solution | 21:02 |
| ttx | now we are paying back that debt | 21:02 |
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| ttx | which is why I'm very pragmatic about it. It's not anyone's fault. It's just something we need to clean up | 21:03 |
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| dougwig | ttx: agree | 21:03 |
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| russellb | dougwig: i reject that view as applied to all repos :) | 21:07 |
| dougwig | russellb: also fair. :) | 21:07 |
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