Tuesday, 2015-12-08

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yamamotohi07:00
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* yamamoto waiting07:01
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ryu25hello07:02
yamamotohi07:02
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yamamotoanyone else?07:02
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yamamotolet's wait for a few minutes07:03
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yamamotohi joe07:04
joe__Hi07:04
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red_trelahey07:05
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yamamotohi07:05
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yamamotolet's start07:05
yamamoto#startmeeting networking_midonet07:05
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 07:05:24 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yamamoto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.07:05
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.07:05
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:05
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking_midonet'07:05
yamamoto#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NetworkingMidoNet agenda07:05
yamamotonot many items on agenda.  this will be a short meeting i guess.07:06
yamamoto#topic Announcements07:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:06
yamamotodo anyone have announcements?07:06
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yamamotowe are past mitaka-1.  we are not doing milestones though.07:07
ryu25I wonder if we should07:07
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red_trelanot sure it qualifies as an announcement, but: we now have gerritbot in #midonet for networking-midonet :)07:07
yamamotored_trela: thank you for setting it up!07:07
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ryu25red_trela: thanks!07:08
yamamoto#info we have gerritbot in #midonet for networking-midonet07:08
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yamamotomove on07:09
ryu25no accouncement from me07:09
yamamoto#topic Bugs07:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:09
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yamamoto#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/networking-midonet/07:09
yamamotothe number of NEW bugs seems growing but still small07:10
yamamotono urgent bugs afaik07:10
ryu25looks completely manageable07:10
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yamamotoryu25: i think you are going to set up bug deputy07:11
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ryu25yamamoto: I set it up for midonet but I think it should be different for networking-midonet due to difficulty of doing both07:12
ryu25so let's set one up for networking-midonet07:12
yamamotoi see07:12
ryu25I would be more than happy to volunteer for the first week07:12
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yamamotothank you!07:13
ryu25yamamoto: currently there are not too many developers that are familiar with both projects, and they are tracked rather differently07:13
ryu25though now that we are inching towards adopting more openstack-ways for midonet, this problem may go away07:13
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yamamotoi agree07:14
irenabyamahata: is this meeting for neutron midonet only or for midonet as well?07:14
yamamotolet's start from this week.07:14
yamamotoirenab: plugin only07:14
ryu25irenab: networking-midonet only07:14
irenabok07:14
ryu25there will be a separate one for midonet later today07:14
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ryu25yamamoto: I'm not sure what the best way to track the deputies.  I suppose we can just update the meetings page like in Neutron07:15
ryu25what do you think?07:15
yamamotoryu25: i think it's fine.07:16
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irenabryu25: +107:16
yamamoto#action yamamoto will create a bug deputy schedule on the meetings wiki07:17
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red_trelabtw, did anyone follow the current neutron deputy discussion on the openstack-dev list?07:17
yamamoto#info bug deputy for the first week will be ryu2507:17
yamamotored_trela: how current?  url?07:18
red_trelalast week: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081132.html07:18
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yamamotothe summary of the thread is "the process is working well" afaik.07:19
red_trelaalright then :)07:19
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ryu25yeah i think generally people seem to be happy with the bug deputy process07:20
yamamotoanyone has a specific bug to discuss here?07:20
ryu25no i have no comment on the bugs07:21
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yamamotolets move on07:22
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yamamoto#topic Open Discussion07:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:22
yamamotoi have a question07:22
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yamamotodo we want rfe bug process similar neutron?07:22
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irenabyamamoto: I am not sure. I think having blueprint is enough07:23
red_trelasince networking-midonet is part of Neutron, do we have a choice?07:23
irenabred_trela: what do you mean by part of neutron?07:24
yamamotoblueprints are not convenient for discussion.  it's ok as far as a single company just decides the direction, though.07:24
red_trelain terms of governance07:24
irenabI think we do have a choice07:25
ryu25in both processes, we still need drivers to agree on whether we accept them or not right?07:25
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ryu25irenab: you prefer blueprint because it's less heavy?07:25
irenabryu25: yes07:26
irenabless steps in the process07:26
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irenabneutron proccesses still evolve07:27
yamamotoprobably "drivers" thing is more appropriate for midonet meeting, not this meeting.07:27
irenablets keep with waht works well for networking-midonet07:27
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red_trelaisn't the purpose of the new RFE approach, that the discussion can happen very early in the process, while the blueprint approach requires quite some upfront work that might be lost if it's not accepted or needs considerable change?07:28
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red_trelaAlso, can't they co-exist? if you want an early opinion or look for more helping hands, go with an RFE. Otherwise, with a blueprint.07:29
irenabred_trela: spec will require more work, blueprint at launchpad is short desctiption07:29
ryu25so the extra step in the RFE process is the evaluation of the initial request?07:30
red_trelaah, I thought it was the other way around...sorry for the noise :)07:30
irenabI think we should have policies defined, so contributors will be aware of the procedures. Any process can be adopted.07:30
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irenablets be agile and improve the process if it does not work well07:31
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yamamotoirenab: do you mean to document the current procedure?07:32
ryu25i can go either way.  Why not just adopt what neutron is doing then? (RFE)07:32
irenabyamamoto: yes, something like neutron having policies defined in the source tree07:32
yamamotoirenab: do you volunteer?07:32
irenabyamamoto: I do not mind.07:33
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irenabplease add action for me to do so07:33
yamamotoi tend to think it's simpler to adapt neutron policies but i'm fine with either ways as far as someone volunteer to document.07:34
yamamoto#action irenab document the current procedure/policy for new features07:35
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yamamotoirenab: thank you!07:35
irenabyamamoto: :-). I want to check similar projects, so be aligned with other vendor plugins07:35
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red_trelawe should probably revisit this in 6 months or so, see how the new process is working for Neutron07:37
yamamotoirenab: good idea.  i've heard odl has some procedure.07:37
irenabred_trela: I would even do it earlier07:37
irenabred_trela: by the end of Mitaka07:37
yamamoto+1 earlier, 6 months sound too long07:37
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irenabyamamoto: thanks, will check with odl07:38
yamamotoit seems we finished agenda items.  does anyone has anything more to discuss?07:38
red_trela"6 months" was more of a random term anyway...I was just thinking that they might do a retrospect after Mitaka which we could use as a base07:39
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red_trelayes, one thing - once MidoNet is part of OpenStack (i.e. an accepted project), should we move networking-midonet from Neutron to MidoNet, governance wise?07:39
red_trelawe'll probably also have to see what the Neutron folks think about this, if we want to move07:40
yamamotored_trela: i'm not sure.  can't we belong to the both?07:40
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red_trelano07:41
ryu25red_trela: I'm not sure if that will make sense since it's more tightly coupled with neutron for things like release cycles07:41
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apuimedo\o/07:41
ryu25apuimedo: hello07:41
apuimedosorry that I'm late07:41
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apuimedowhere are we on getting the plugin packages on distros?07:42
apuimedordo and Ubuntu cloud archives07:42
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red_trelaryu25: yea, that's what I thought - just been wondering whether people maybe think that it's the same people, so it should be governed together07:42
red_trelabut I'm fine with leaving it as-is :)07:42
ryu25i definitely wouldn't mind consolidating if it makes sense07:43
ryu25but i don't think it makes sense at this moment07:43
yamamotoryu25: +107:43
red_trelagot it07:43
ryu25red_trela: let's see how it goes running two separate projects.  We may feel differently later07:44
red_trelasure07:44
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ryu25nothing more from me07:45
yamamotoapuimedo: i have no idea about packaging07:46
apuimedoryu25: ^^07:46
ryu25i thought apuimedo answered his own question07:46
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red_trelamaybe apuimedo needs to clarify the question07:50
apuimedoI'll send to ml07:51
apuimedosorry ;P07:51
yamamotonp07:51
yamamotosee you later on the midonet meeting07:51
apuimedo307:51
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yamamoto#endmeeting07:52
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"07:52
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 07:52:09 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)07:52
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2015/networking_midonet.2015-12-08-07.05.html07:52
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2015/networking_midonet.2015-12-08-07.05.txt07:52
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2015/networking_midonet.2015-12-08-07.05.log.html07:52
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ryu25yamamoto: thanks you!07:53
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red_trelayea, thanks yamamoto and everyone07:53
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irenabthnaks guys07:53
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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 08:00:16 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:00
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anteayahello08:01
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lennyb_anteaya: Hi08:01
anteayahow are you lennyb_08:01
lennyb_thanks, how are you nowdays?08:01
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anteayagood thank you08:01
anteayayou saw the links I posted at yesterday's meeting, yes?08:02
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lennyb_not yet,08:02
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anteayayou were at yesterday's meeting were you not?08:04
lennyb_yes08:04
lennyb_I just didnt have much time to look at them08:05
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anteayaoh okay08:05
anteaya#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081527.html08:05
anteayathat is a post about documentation changes for neutron drivers08:06
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anteaya#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/080867.html08:06
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anteayaand that is a mailing list thread that folks setting up third party ci for ironic should read08:06
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lennyb_great, thanks, but Ironic is currently irrelevant for us08:08
anteayaright08:08
anteayabut those are the links I posted in yesterday's meeting08:08
anteayaso I posted them again in this meeting for consistentcy08:08
anteayamake sense?08:09
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lennyb_I've also sent email asking permission for voting for our Nova CI, but this is for email thread and not this chat08:09
anteayagreat08:09
anteayayes I saw08:09
anteayaI hope you have a good discussion08:09
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anteayado you have anything to discuss today?08:10
lennyb_me too. And your consistency is very helpful08:10
anteayathank you08:10
anteayathat is kind of you to say08:10
lennyb_not really.08:10
anteayaokay08:10
lennyb_have a good rest of the night... I guess08:11
anteayathanks you too08:11
anteayaany objection to me closing the meeting?08:11
lennyb_noop08:11
anteayaokay thanks lennyb_08:11
lennyb_u208:12
anteayaI appreciate you being here08:12
anteayasee you next week08:12
anteaya#endmeeting08:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"08:12
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 08:12:14 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:12
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-08.00.html08:12
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-08.00.txt08:12
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-08.00.log.html08:12
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ryu25hi, midonet meeting is about to start08:59
yamamotohi08:59
ryu25yamamoto: hi again!08:59
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ryu25hello Brandon_Berg09:00
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jfjolyHi everyone!09:01
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red_trelahello again09:01
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ryu25jfjoly: red_trela: hi!09:01
ryu25let me see if I can manage an openstack meeting as well as yamamoto did09:02
ryu25#startmeeting midonet09:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 09:02:29 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ryu25. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.09:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.09:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: midonet)"09:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'midonet'09:02
ryu25#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/MidoNet agenda09:03
ryu25#topic Announcements09:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: midonet)"09:03
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ryu25The first announcement I have is that I have created a Launchpad page for midonet09:04
ryu25#link https://launchpad.net/midonet09:04
ryu25Still need to fill in the details, but with help rom red_trela, it's getting there09:04
ryu25it's not done yet, so for now, we will continue to file bugs against JIRA09:05
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red_trelawhat's missing at this point?09:05
ryu25but I am hoping that we can start migrating all the bugs from JIRA to LP in January...09:05
ryu25red_trela: I think we just need to start moving the existing bugs around in one shot09:06
ryu25to avoid having yet another place to look for bugs09:06
red_trelagot it09:06
yamamotoare we going to do "mitaka", aligning with the rest of openstack?09:06
yamamotohttps://launchpad.net/midonet/mitaka09:06
ryu25yamamoto: good question, I originally thought so but I was told by thierry that we don't necessary follow the OpenStack releases09:07
ryu25I personally think it will be much easier to just follow it09:08
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ryu25I will ask in the ML09:08
ryu25i think the discussion belongs there09:08
red_trelaI think we should still do "mitaka", but with our own schedule (which is allowed and pretty common ever since the big tent was introduced)09:08
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red_trelaright, let's discuss it on the ml09:08
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ryu25red_trela: it seems pretty confusing to call it mitaka but yet release completely separately from the rest of the mitaka OpenStack projects09:09
ryu25anyway, let's disscuss in ML09:09
jfjolyWe can do releases in between and decide which one is for Mitaka.09:09
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ryu25#action ryu25 ask in ML about the midonet release cycle and versioning09:10
ryu25jfjoly: we can do milestones09:11
red_trelaother announcements? ;)09:11
ryu25anyone?09:12
red_trelaso, #midonet is now an official OpenStack channel09:12
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ryu25red_trela: so no more #midonet-dev then?  Just #midonet, right?09:13
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red_trelaand eavesdrop (OpenStack logging facility) should be added soon - pending +A from openstack infra09:13
red_trelaryu25: right09:13
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red_trelawe also got gerritbot, but as our repos are not yet on OpenStack infra, it only just notifies about networking-midonet yet.09:14
ryu25#info midonet-dev irc chnanel is replaced by midonet09:14
red_trelaand we'll get statusbot, which is used by the openstack (infra) folks to share some important information, like "gate it broken, don't +A anything"09:14
ryu25very cool!09:15
yamamoto#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252172/09:15
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red_trelawell, cool once we use the gate and other infra ;)09:15
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ryu25any other announcement?09:16
red_trelanot sure whether we also get meetbot, which would be cool for an irregular meeting, I guess...will try to have it added as well09:16
ryu25one last announcement from me - v5.1 is scheduled to have an RC in the beginning of January.09:17
ryu25jfjoly: please correct me if I'm wrong on that09:17
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jfjolyryu25: That's correct 😃09:18
red_treladon't forget to update the release schedule in the wiki, please09:19
jfjolyred_trela: thanks good point09:19
yamamotowhich wiki?  i thought we are moving to launchpad :-)09:19
ryu25#info midonet v5.1 RC scheduled the first half of Janurary09:20
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red_trelaI guess that's one of the parts that's not ready yet...but right, release schedules go to launchpad as well I guess09:20
jfjolyyamamoto: we can update both , that's a different audience.09:21
red_trelabut launchpad doesn't completely replace having a wiki ;)09:21
red_trelawe'll probably move to the OpenStack wiki, though09:21
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ryu25any more announcement?09:21
red_trelaguess that we moved to openstack-dev ml is old news by now :)09:22
ryu25red_trela, still good to be reminded, thanks09:22
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ryu25#topic Bugs09:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: midonet)"09:23
ryu25it might be blasphemous to post a link to JIRA in this channel but that's all we have at this moment09:24
ryu25#link #link https://midonet.atlassian.net/browse/MNA-1112?jql=project%20%3D%20MidoNet%20AND%20priority%20%3D%20Major%20and%20issuetype%20%3D%20Bug%20AND%20status%20in%20(Proposed%2C%20Reopened)%20ORDER%20BY%20createdDate%20Desc%2C%20priority%20Desc09:24
ryu25sorry i double linked09:25
ryu25#link https://midonet.atlassian.net/browse/MNA-1112?jql=project%20%3D%20MidoNet%20AND%20priority%20%3D%20Major%20and%20issuetype%20%3D%20Bug%20AND%20status%20in%20(Proposed%2C%20Reopened)%20ORDER%20BY%20createdDate%20Desc%2C%20priority%20Desc09:25
ryu25this is the list of bugs marked as major that we have currently09:25
ryu25 no Critical bug09:25
red_trelathat links brings me to MNA-1112, not to a list09:26
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red_trelaoh, wait09:26
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ryu25red_trela: supposed to search09:26
ryu25filter the bugs09:26
red_trelalooks like my console doesn't like the link09:26
red_trelatoo long :P09:26
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red_trelaworks now ;)09:27
ryu25sorry i knew JIRA gets discriminated here09:27
ryu25nothing urgent on this list except that I think most of these should be fixed for v5.109:27
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ryu25anyone has any comment on these bugs?09:28
ryu25I wanted to try out the Bug Deputy process of Neutron in midonet, so I volunteered myself last week to see how that goes09:29
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ryu25and the experience was quite good, and very educational09:29
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ryu25i got to clean up a lot too, by removing duplicates and invalid ones09:30
red_trelathe cleaner the better to move to launchpad ;)09:31
ryu25i think it's a good idea to continue, and kitsuneninetails has already kindly volunteered to take on this role for this week09:31
ryu25i will work with him on this process since we're all new to it09:31
red_trelaawesome09:31
ryu25I will update the meeting wiki page with the deputy schedule09:32
ryu25and a brief summary of the bugs reported last week09:32
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ryu25#info kitsuneninetails is the next bug deputy09:33
ryu25#action ryu25 update meeting wiki with bug deputy sched and bug summary for last week09:33
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ryu25there is no bug that requires any special attention, so going to move on.  feel free to stop me if you want to discuss the bugs further09:35
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ryu25#topic Open Discussion09:36
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: midonet)"09:36
ryu25for feature proposal in midonet, i would like to follow the RFE process practiced in Neutron.  anyone has opinions on this?09:38
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ryu25I will ask in ml also09:39
yamamotoryu25: do you mean to have a separate drivers meeting or do it here?09:39
red_trelaI think sticking to Neutron's best practices is always a good idea :)09:40
ryu25yamamoto: I don't know actually, I'm thinking a separate meeting09:41
ryu25but that might be too heavy09:41
ryu25but i guess the process is to simply create a bug reporing what you want to implement09:41
ryu25and we can go over them here to start09:41
red_trelanot sure there's enough time, but can't hurt to try09:42
ryu25right, we'll adjust as we go09:42
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ryu25#action ryu25 start a conversation about feature proposal in ML09:43
ryu25red_trela, you might be the best preson to answer this, but I would like to know a bit more about migrating midonet to the OpenStack infra09:44
red_trelabig question09:44
red_trelaand not one I'm prepared to answer right now, so I might be forgetting things09:45
ryu25i see a lot of value in doing that, but i also see a lot of unknowns...09:45
red_trelaanything specific?09:45
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red_trelamaybe I know the answers, otherwise I need to find them :)09:45
ryu25no, it's a big topic so let's discuss elsewhere09:45
red_trelaokay09:46
red_trelafeel free to ask me in #midonet or on openstack-dev ml with anything that is not clear in this regard :)09:47
yamamotored_trela: are there todos somewhere?09:47
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red_trelayamamoto: no, I should probably put them in the wiki or something - I did everything so far, but there's a few steps that I will certainly need help with09:48
red_trelaI already brought up one or two things on the mailing list09:48
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ryu25red_trela: organizing it in one place will be useful, i think09:48
ryu25for everyone to start helping out in the process09:49
red_trelasure09:49
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red_trelawell, for now, I need people help with decisions (see ml) - and then to implement those :)09:49
red_trelabut yes, will do09:50
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ryu25#action red_trela create a doc (wiki, lp,...) to organize and share the process for the move to openstack infra09:51
ryu25red_trela: sure, let's work together on it09:51
red_trelathe trickiest one will be the migration to Gerrit, as we can't migrate/import (unmerged) review requests09:51
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red_trelaso people probably need to re-open them, i.e. we want to first merge as many as possible, I guess09:52
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ryu25right, we can't have them co-exist pointing to the same code base09:53
ryu25ok interesting, that's something we can discuss in the community09:53
ryu25red_trela also started a thread today about moving PMC out of midonet09:53
ryu25#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081693.html09:54
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ryu25with the original discussion started by yamamoto09:55
ryu25i'm +1 on this idea09:55
yamamotodo you have any idea why it's put in the current structure?09:55
ryu25for ease of maintenance09:55
red_trelaright, this might actually be required by OpenStack (release management) - and I'm sure downstream distributions would appreciate it as well, as the expect a 1:1 tarball to package mapping09:55
ryu25managing releases together for example09:56
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red_trelaand we might have to put the midonet-cli into yet another repo as it uses a different license (GPLv3)09:56
red_trelaI'll bring that up as a separate discussion, though09:57
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red_trelaneed to make sure it's really required first09:57
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ryu25as for PMC, let's see what others say on this.  I know we have differing opinions09:57
red_trelaindeed09:58
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yamamotoryu25: so currently pmc is incompatible with different versions of midonet?09:58
red_trelaI wonder, if we want to put PMC on pypi, does it need to be a separate repo? Because pypi is another requirement by OpenStack.09:58
ryu25yamamoto: not necessarily so, though I cannot say for sure to which version it is compatible with09:59
ryu25now that it has been merged into midonet for a while09:59
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red_trelaokay, I think we need to finish here as our reserved time slot is over :)09:59
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ryu25red_trela: afaik yes, which is why we mirror it to a different PMC repo (yuck)09:59
ryu25ok ending the meeting, thanks everyone!10:00
yamamotobye10:00
ryu25#endmeeting10:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"10:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 10:00:09 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)10:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/midonet/2015/midonet.2015-12-08-09.02.html10:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/midonet/2015/midonet.2015-12-08-09.02.txt10:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/midonet/2015/midonet.2015-12-08-09.02.log.html10:00
red_trelathanks ryu25 and everyone :)10:00
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jfjolyThanks!10:00
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alex_xu#startmeeting nova api12:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 12:00:08 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is alex_xu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.12:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.12:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova_api'12:00
alex_xuwho is here today?12:00
gmann_hi12:00
jicheno/12:00
sdaguemorning12:00
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alex_xumorning/evening everyone12:02
alex_xuwe probably have short meeting today, as today is api doc sprint!12:02
alex_xu#topic actions from last meeting12:02
alex_xuwe didn't have any action from prevous meeting12:02
*** openstack changes topic to "actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:02
johnthetubaguycools12:02
cdento/12:02
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alex_xuonly thing is, sdague do you have any update for api ref approve permission?12:02
oomichihi12:02
sdaguealex_xu: I don't yet12:02
alex_xusdague: ok, it's fine, without that, it still works for us12:03
alex_xu#topic doc sprint12:03
*** openstack changes topic to "doc sprint (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:03
sdagueI told anne that I'd like the nova cores that do API work to be in an approve group for that, so me, johnthetubaguy, alex_xu, oomichi12:03
sdagueshe seemed ok with it, but it hasn't yet materialized12:03
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alex_xuwe have some patch up for concept doc12:04
alex_xu#link #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:bp/complete-todo-in-api-concept-doc,n,z12:04
alex_xuoops12:04
alex_xusdague: johnthetubaguy would you like take a look few of patches from me, it adds more todos, I think it is useful for people looking for tasks12:04
johnthetubaguyalex_xu: looking at them now actually12:05
sdaguealex_xu: sure, can do, I meant to start going through these yesterday, but fell down a rabbit hole with unwinding our glance configuration12:05
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alex_xuand gmann_ create a topic for api-ref, it will be great people use same topic12:06
alex_xu#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/api-site+branch:master+topic:fix-compute-api-ref,n,z12:06
alex_xuam i still online, looks like super quiet...12:06
sdagueyep, still online12:06
cdentI see you12:06
alex_xujichen: oomichi gmann_ sdague any response?12:07
oomichirelated to this api-ref, I sent a mail about http20312:07
oomichito openstack-dev12:07
sdagueoomichi: link?12:07
oomichiok,12:07
gmann_yea 203 needs to be discussed12:07
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oomichi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081690.html12:08
oomichithat is12:08
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oomichiapi-site contains a lot of 203 as valid code12:08
gmann_sdague: oomichi yea but for some API not all12:09
alex_xuoops, I have huge delay for message12:09
gmann_we may need to define that at upper level if that is valid one12:09
sdaguehonestly, it seems weird12:09
oomichisdague: someone tried to add 203 as valid code to tempest before12:10
sdagueoomichi: do you have that patch?12:10
gmann_there are some discussion over patches - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254483/  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/242901/12:10
oomichiI cannot find it now, too old12:10
sdaguewere they doing it because it was in the doc? or do they have a real reason12:10
johnthetubaguywell we have to start with documenting what we have, I suspect we will find lots of odd things during this process12:10
gmann_sdague: ^^12:10
oomichisdague: because of the doc12:10
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johnthetubaguybecause of the doc... arg12:10
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gmann_#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/242901/12:11
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* cdent can't imagine a situation where _application_ code should be generating 20312:11
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: is this a repose thing?12:11
gmann_that is not what any API returns its manipulated from proxy thing actually12:11
johnthetubaguyso lets back up a bit, is it possible to get 203 in the code?12:12
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sdaguejohnthetubaguy: no, it is not12:12
johnthetubaguysdague: its possible, not sure how it got in the docs though12:12
sdague203 can't be generated by the code today12:12
gmann_yea12:12
johnthetubaguyright, lets just drop that form the API description then12:12
sdagueso I feel like it should be removed from the docs12:12
johnthetubaguyyeah12:12
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: agreed12:12
* cdent nods12:12
johnthetubaguythe concept of having two success codes for an API call just freaks me out12:13
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jichen+1 I tried to submit one but someone told me it's added by Annta, let me try to search the history12:13
sdagueyep12:13
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oomichisdague: I see12:14
alex_xu+1 remove it12:14
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sdagueI suspect it has to do with the rax setup, but it's fine that we separate what OpenStack expects to be true, and any particular vendor setup12:14
gmann_yea +1 to remove12:14
oomichican we discuss this on -dev for getting a consensus from wide area including doc team?12:15
sdagueoomichi: sure, or on the review12:15
sdagueI explained why I think it should go in my +112:15
oomichisdague: thanks :)12:15
johnthetubaguyyeah, totally should not include any vendor specifics in our API docs12:16
alex_xuone more question for me, when i look at version section in concept doc12:16
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alex_xuwe have '/v1.1' endpoint, but we won't return '1.1' api in the version API12:17
alex_xu#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254687/2/api-guide/source/versions.rst12:17
alex_xuI just send a patch, the current response from the version API just include 2.0 and 2.112:17
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oomichialex_xu: because /v1.1 is just alias12:17
johnthetubaguyits not been in there long enough that I am not worried about it, I guess. Although that sure makes it harder to remove/detect12:18
alex_xuoomichi: ok, alias make sense12:18
alex_xuok, if no worry, just move on12:19
johnthetubaguyin a related area, I just put a -1 on here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254473/12:19
jichenhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/246297/1/api-ref/src/wadls/compute-api/src/v2.1/wadl/images-v2.1.wadl12:19
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: I thought we were going to drop the /v1.1 in the default paste?12:19
jichenalex_xu: is the one I mentioned for the 203 return code12:19
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johnthetubaguysdague: I didn't think we could, as its always been there12:19
sdagueso, I know of no one, and no tests using it12:20
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sdagueI would really like to do whatever is required to deprecate and phase it out12:20
sdagueat least in our defaults12:20
oomichijohnthetubaguy: that is because mentioning later "v2.0"12:20
sdaguebecause vendors can add it back12:20
johnthetubaguysdague: sure, but it feels like so little cost to keep it, seems bad to break backwards compatibility12:21
alex_xujichen: emm, I didn't get the comment, the 203 for some purpose?12:21
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: how many rax users hit it?12:21
johnthetubaguyoomichi: OK, probably need to phrase it differently12:21
sdaguebrb12:21
oomichijohnthetubaguy: the endpoint seemed to imply "v2.0" as the endpoint, but I removed the "v2.0" on the patch. then I added it.12:21
johnthetubaguysdague: I don't know actually, thats a good question12:21
jichenalex_xu: - Anne Gentle updated all these to separate out the 203 return code for the purposes of migration to RST, I don't know what's RST, I thought it might be history related12:22
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johnthetubaguyoomichi: added an alternative way of phrasing that in the patch, to see if that helps12:23
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oomichijohnthetubaguy: sorry, difficult to get your comment for me.12:24
oomichijohnthetubaguy: nice to clarify what is v2.0 separately in the doc, right?12:24
alex_xujichen: from the title of your patch, it is going to remove 203 response. So I guess that comment isn't related we should keep 203 as valid return code.12:25
sdaguethe thing is, v1.1 hasn't been returned in our version discover for years12:25
johnthetubaguyoomichi: added a new comment in the review for a new way to word that12:25
sdaguewhen we say remove, what we're saying is removing 1 paste pipeline line so that new installs don't get this12:25
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oomichijohnthetubaguy: ok, thanks!12:25
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sdaguehttps://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/7c02bde804434dfd769fdaf7fb6d1ccbcb946d66/etc/nova/api-paste.ini#L7812:26
jichenalex_xu: oops, I misunderstanding it ..12:26
johnthetubaguysdague: we are also saying we break users that wrote scripts against the version that only had the /v1.1 endpoint present12:26
johnthetubaguysdague: but thats long enough ago, I would not block that12:26
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: no, we actually aren't12:27
sdaguebecause existing clouds typically don't blindly blast over their paste.ini12:27
alex_xuemm..sounds good pint12:27
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: also, if we believe v1.1 is a thing, it should be in our version list12:27
alex_xus/pint/point12:27
sdagueGET /12:27
johnthetubaguysdague: true12:27
sdaguewhich it is not, and has not been for 3 years?12:28
alex_xuyes, that is a little strange12:28
sdagueso, that makes me believe it is not a thing12:28
johnthetubaguyyeah, I don't want to add it in there12:28
cdentsdague++12:28
johnthetubaguyso probably easiest to just drop v1.112:28
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sdaguethen we should remove it, and reno the fact that we're doing this, and what a site should do if they want to keep it locally12:28
johnthetubaguywe could call that three year deprecation window or something, if it makes us feel happier about that12:29
johnthetubaguyyup12:29
alex_xushould we have mail to operator-ML before we remove12:29
sdagueyou can sign me up for that, I'll make the patch today12:29
oomichinice to drop v1.1, and that is a nice step before droping v2.012:29
sdagueoomichi: dropping v2.0 is not on the table any time soon12:29
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sdagueor possibly ever12:29
johnthetubaguywe should inform the operators, not sure we should give them the option12:29
johnthetubaguyoomichi: yeah, I can't see me ever not -2ing /v2.0 removal12:30
oomichisdague: yeah, I know in short-term12:30
sdagueyeh, lets land the patch and FYI it to the ops12:30
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johnthetubaguyyeah12:30
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alex_xu#action sdague make a patch for remove 1.1 and info the ops12:30
sdaguethanks alex_xu, was about to record that myself :)12:31
alex_xusdague: :)12:31
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alex_xuok, so let's move on?12:31
sdagueyep12:31
alex_xuany more question about sprint?12:31
alex_xuok, move on12:31
sdaguealex_xu: is it worth updating the nova-spec dashboard in gerrit dash creator with the topics you want reviewed?12:32
sdagueor making another dashboard for this?12:32
johnthetubaguyits in the review etherpad at least12:32
johnthetubaguy#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-nova-priorities-tracking12:32
alex_xusdague: I think it's fine, we just have one topic for concept doc and one topic for api-ref12:33
sdagueyeh, I just find the dashboards easier because they typically have NOT label:Code-Review>=-2,self12:33
sdaguewhich means you know all the ones you don't have an active vote on12:33
sdagueso you can use it as a todo list12:33
sdagueanyway, just a thought, lets move on12:34
alex_xuok12:34
alex_xu#topic API futures - specs12:35
*** openstack changes topic to "API futures - specs (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:35
alex_xu#link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/mitaka/approved/live-migration-progress-report.html12:35
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: ^ your turn12:35
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alex_xuemm...did I get network slow again?12:36
jichenno, I see you :)12:36
alex_xuok :)12:36
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gmann__alex_xu: yea you are fine :)12:36
* edleafe yawns12:36
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oomichiyeah, I can see alex_xu12:36
alex_xusdague: ^ do you know the detail about that?12:37
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* alex_xu pokes edleafe avoid him get sleep12:37
alex_xuif they are no response, let us jump to the open, maybe they will be back after few minutes12:38
sdagueI think the issue is that we did all this conversation about using the servers/{id}/migrations/{id} for pause12:38
sdagueand that is the resource that should be used for status12:38
sdagueinstead of a global lookup resource12:39
* edleafe thanks alex_xu 12:39
alex_xusdague: so the servers/{id}/migrations/{id} is totally different resource with /migrations?12:39
sdagueyes12:39
sdaguewhich does not yet exist12:39
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alex_xuwhat is for /migrations in the future?12:40
sdaguebut johnthetubaguy didn't want to further expand /migrations12:40
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sdaguegood question, and I'm not sure, but the future here should be per server12:40
sdaguebecause a migration is about a server12:40
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johnthetubaguyyeah, I think we drop /migrations in a later microversion12:41
johnthetubaguyonce the per-server stuff works better12:41
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johnthetubaguyor just make it a cross server list for admins, so you query by host12:41
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: if we drop /migrations, we are missing a function for query old migration?12:41
johnthetubaguybut anyways, feels like we should really add that stuff in the new place for now12:42
johnthetubaguyalex_xu: yeah, maybe thats what we keep it for then, the admin use caess12:42
gmann__johnthetubaguy: sdague alex_xu yea how we will get history data for migration12:42
gmann__because that helpfull if any migration has not completed or failed12:42
johnthetubaguyanyways, just feels like this data would fit better on the per server active migrations, than it does after the migrations have finishished12:43
johnthetubaguythe progress info12:43
johnthetubaguyalso, it doesn't seem to be clear on live-migrate vs migrate, and what happens when info is not available, but I may have just missed that.12:43
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oomichiimaging use case: when migrating servers, they want to make some host free. is it nice to get the migrating servers with secific *source host* ?12:44
sdagueI think /migrations is a thing that goes away should we get a tasks interface12:44
sdaguebecause migrations are always going to be outstanding tasks12:44
sdagueand that would be the way you seach for them12:44
alex_xuI'm a little prefer to keep same view for two resources, different view will make user confused. for keep same view, we also can remove the /migration directly in the future12:44
sdagueservers/{id}/migrations/{id} is the specific migration12:45
oomichiI am imaging we can do that on /migrations12:45
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sdaguealex_xu: no, we don't want /migrations format extended12:45
sdaguethat can be the list to get links to servers/{id}/migrations/{id}12:45
alex_xusdague: that is for people won't continue depend on the old /migrations?12:46
sdagueI think we need to just consider that /migrations is the existing search interface12:46
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sdagueand that's what it is, search12:46
sdaguewith more info at the new resource12:47
sdagueso the only thing that should extend about it is each migration should include a link to the new migration resource12:47
oomichinice to extend new resource with using /migrations for searching12:48
gmann__sdague: or just migration id list12:48
alex_xusdague: what is the purpose of the link?12:48
sdaguegmann__: I think the existing info is fine12:48
sdaguealex_xu: so that you can get all those details12:48
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sdagueor cancel it12:49
sdaguethe whole theory of the API is you have collection resources like /servers /migrations /images that you can search on12:49
alex_xusdague: ok12:49
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sdaguethat provide links to things you operate on12:49
sdagueor get more details with12:49
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sdagueso that all the resources are discoverable via link following12:50
alex_xuok, so that will be N release work?12:50
gmann__yea sounds standard way.12:50
sdaguealex_xu: no, this has to be for M12:51
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sdaguebecause there are 2 specs approved to change migrations, and the assumption is they'd operate on this new resources12:52
alex_xusdague: ok, cool, happy to see this move on, if we have plan12:52
sdaguei.e. I'm -2 on all patches on this live migration status if they update the existing resource12:52
alex_xuso we need update the spec12:52
sdaguealex_xu: so can you circle with the intel folks and get them to make a spec update?12:52
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sdagueyeh, that was the point of the agenda item12:53
alex_xusdague: yup, I will do that12:53
sdaguerealizing this fell through the cracks12:53
alex_xusdague: I mean for adding link in /migration is N release work?12:53
sdaguealex_xu: yeh, it needs to be as part of the same version that adds the extended status12:54
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sdagueotherwise how to people discover the new resources?12:54
alex_xusdague: ok, I see now12:54
alex_xuthen let talk about remove /migration in the future12:54
sdaguethat requires tasks I think12:55
sdagueand I don't think it's urgent12:55
johnthetubaguyI think lets just focus on getting the specs representing the current agreed direction12:55
johnthetubaguyyeah, we can punt the rest of it12:55
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: agreed12:55
alex_xuok, I didn't get the relationship about migration and task yet, I thought they are same purpose12:55
johnthetubaguyI have an exception request in to look at making os-instance-actions more consistently used, in the hope of making some progress on "tasks"12:55
alex_xucool, if we have progress on tasks12:56
alex_xu#topic open12:56
*** openstack changes topic to "open (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:56
johnthetubaguyalex_xu: long term, I think a migration might also be tracked by a task, but lets worry about that later I guess12:56
alex_xusorry, jump to open direclty, avoid people need help12:56
sdagueok, open topic question - api samples testing12:56
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oomichijohnthetubaguy: yeah, that is nice direction in long term12:56
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: ok, expect that12:57
sdagueI was a little confused by some of the testscenarios logic in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254401/1/nova/tests/functional/api_sample_tests/api_sample_base.py,cm because it seems like there are some odd conditionals in there to setup the tests12:57
sdagueespecially as we want to add a 4th path which doesn't have project_ids in the path12:57
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sdaguepost meeting, can we go through that in #openstack-nova?12:58
alex_xusure12:58
alex_xuand gmann__ are expert onthat12:58
johnthetubaguyyeah, I think we had a TODO to turn all extensions on, not sure if we got that done yet12:58
sdagueand one additional question, the patch auggy is working on for making project_id optional12:58
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alex_xuyup, I saw patch from gmann__12:58
gmann__sdague: sure i thought to remove project id from existing one12:58
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alex_xuwe can talk about that in next meeting also12:58
gmann__johnthetubaguy: in progress done for image and flavor only12:59
sdaguein order to samples test that, my suggestion is we put a new set of samples in doc/api_samples/{foo}/v2.1312:59
sdaguebecause we'll signal this with a microversion12:59
sdagueand wanted to make sure that made sense to folks12:59
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sdagueor if there is a better way to do it12:59
alex_xu1 mins left, let move to openstack-nova directly12:59
sdagueok, sounds good12:59
gmann__ok12:59
alex_xuthanks all! enjoy the doc sprint!13:00
alex_xu#endmeeting13:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"13:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 13:00:12 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-12-08-12.00.html13:00
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-12-08-12.00.txt13:00
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-12-08-12.00.log.html13:00
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Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 13:00:49 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
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Qiminggood evening/morning/...13:01
haiweihi13:01
Yanyanhuhello13:01
elynn__o/13:01
lixinhuihi13:01
Qimingplease check agenda and see if you have things to add13:01
Qiminghttps://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda13:02
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Qimingas usual, lets start with the etherpad13:02
Qiming#topic Mitaka work items13:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Mitaka work items (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:02
Qiming#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-mitaka-workitems13:02
QimingResource type -- elynn13:03
elynn__hi13:03
Qimingpreviously, it was delayed by the api change13:03
elynn__no progress this week, api change is done?13:04
QimingI think the API modification is drawing near its end13:04
Qimingwe will do some modifications next to the senlinclient13:04
elynn__good to know, I will update these patches this week13:04
Qimingokay, the latest patch to sdk is about profile type13:05
elynn__I would like to add a template to heat-templates, what do you think?13:05
Qimingref: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/253817/13:05
Qimingelynn__, we can do that later13:05
Qimingfirst we need to make sure things work stable13:05
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elynn__Qiming: you mean after other resources added to heat?13:06
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Qimingyes, elynn__13:06
elynn__like policy or webhook13:06
Qimingfor example, the update operation is not fully supported I think13:06
Qimingpolicy and webhook are midterm goals13:06
elynn__ok, I will focus on cluster and node resources now.13:07
Qimingwill need specs on that before working on the code13:07
Qimingyes, focus on the basics please13:07
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elynn__Qiming: yes, I haven't fully tests update now, I might wait for senlin to get stable.13:07
Qimingthe last missing resource type in sdk is policy-type13:07
Qimingthat won't be a big deal13:07
Qimingafter that senlinclient can be pretty simplified13:08
Qimingelynn__, please help get it stable instead of waiting if you have cycles13:08
elynn__Qiming: ok , I can start to test the codes now.13:08
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Qimingwe need at least CRUD working properly13:08
Qiminggreat13:09
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Qiming#topic senlinclient unit test13:09
*** openstack changes topic to "senlinclient unit test (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:09
elynn__Qiming: yes, I will do some test on senlin.13:09
haiweiI didn't do it this week13:09
haiweithe unit test13:09
Qiminghttps://review.openstack.org/25179813:09
Qimingthis one was reviewed13:09
haiweifocused on the api side13:09
Qimingokay13:09
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haiweihonestly I don't know why jenkins failed13:10
Qimingplease check if changing 'MagicMock' to 'Mock' makes sense to you13:10
haiweievery single test case can be passed but when running all the tests some of them failed13:10
haiweireplacement of MagicMock is Ok to me13:11
Qimingalright, when help is needed, pls let the team know, :) we can share tears13:11
Qimingokay, another concurrency problem13:11
haiweiI will update the patch soon13:11
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Qiminggood luck13:11
haiweiyes13:11
Yanyanhu:)13:11
Qiming#topic api modification13:11
*** openstack changes topic to "api modification (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:11
haiweiyou and me, right?13:12
Qiming201/202 response code is already done, right?13:12
haiweiI uploaded two patches in the afternoon13:12
Qimingcurrent focus is to make sure we are returning a 'location' header when appropriate13:12
Qimingyep, saw that, progress is good13:13
haiweimost of the APIs have been done, I think13:13
haiweiI will check if anything is missing13:13
haiwei201/202 are done13:14
Qimingokay, when you are checking it again, please cross verify it with the docs13:14
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elynn__Is there any change for senlinclient?13:14
Qiming#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252245/13:14
haiweiok, I will check the docs13:14
Qimingthis is the doc patch, finally got some commens from cores13:14
haiweithe long doc13:14
Qimingthe PDF version is easier to read: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/45/252245/10/check/gate-api-site-tox-doc-publish-checkbuild/d1f26a1//publish-docs/api-ref-guides/bk-api-ref-clustering-v1.pdf13:14
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Qimingthe HTML version is more interation oriented: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/45/252245/10/check/gate-api-site-tox-doc-publish-checkbuild/d1f26a1//publish-docs/api-ref/api-ref-clustering-v1.html13:15
Qiming400/404 rework is completed13:16
Qimingrelease notes commited as well13:16
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Qiming#topic health management13:16
*** openstack changes topic to "health management (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:16
QimingI've being thinking about it13:17
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Qimingneed another brain13:17
Qiminglixinhui, want to work on this?13:17
lixinhuiSure13:17
QimingI was told that your brain quality is good, :)13:18
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haiweican you explain the basic goal of health policy13:18
lixinhuireally?13:18
haiweihealth management13:18
Yanyanhu:)13:18
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zhangguoqingexplain please :)13:19
Qimingnetwork problem again13:19
Qimingi heard something, then I was disconnected13:19
lixinhuiPowerful ears :)13:20
Qiminglixinhui, let's start with some use cases13:20
haiweiseems someone want Senlin to control like : if a vm is dead senlin will start a new one13:20
Qimingwe are not about to solve all problems13:20
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Qimingyes, haiwei it sounds pretty simple a scenario13:20
Qimingbut it is not that straightforward13:21
lixinhuiyes, whole picture is so complicated13:21
haiweibut it seems not easy13:21
haiweimaybe need a new command for it?13:21
Qimingyes, there are at least three factors for consideration:13:21
Qiming1. failure detection; 2. failure notification; 3. failure recovery13:21
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Qimingsenlin will have to do recovery, either manually or automatically13:22
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Qimingbecause it is MANAGER of the groups13:23
haiweiseems there is a long way to go13:23
Qimingsenlin will provide receivers for notifications13:23
Qimingit should allow recovery to be triggered by any external alert/alarm/event/monitoring systems13:24
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Qimingfinally, we will look into some naive (builtin) detection mechanisms13:25
Qimingthere is no easy answer to any of these three questions13:25
Yanyanhuis that possible the failure detection and notification is from senlin service inside?13:25
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haiweioff line again?13:25
Yanyanhu...my question make him disconnected again?13:26
haiweihaha13:26
lixinhuihaha13:26
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Qimingsigh ... I was out again13:26
Qimingdid I miss something?13:26
Yanyanhunope13:27
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lixinhui:)13:27
Qiminghexchat is very unstable13:27
haiwei<Yanyanhu> is that possible the failure detection and notification is from senlin service inside?13:27
Yanyanhuso the last question is13:27
QimingI'd say yes13:27
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YanyanhuI also think so13:28
Qimingbut reliable failure detection is a domain by itself13:28
QimingI'm using mIRC now13:28
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Qimingjust bought a license13:28
Qimingokay, moving on?13:29
Yanyanhuyes13:29
Qimingor there are questions?13:29
elynn__ok13:29
haiweino13:29
Qiming#topic update operation13:29
*** openstack changes topic to "update operation (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:29
Yanyanhuactually didn't have time to work on it this week...13:29
QimingI think yanyan was completely trapped by the DB concurrency problem13:29
Yanyanhuyea...13:29
Qimingfinally, functional tests are passing now13:30
YanyanhuI'm a little worried there could be no perfect solution for this issue...13:30
Qimingexcept for the webhook one13:30
haiweisaw the patch , but can't help13:30
QimingI spent some time reading sqlalchemy docs as well13:30
Qimingmaybe this is the only workaround we have today13:31
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Yanyanhuyes, I also have the same feeling...13:31
Yanyanhumaybe we have to make a tradeoff here13:31
Qiminglisten to the developers, they may cheat you, but they are the most honest people you are talking to, :)13:31
Yanyanhuyes13:31
Qimingso we will follow the docs13:31
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Yanyanhuand I found some most useful info sometimes came from stackoverflow :)13:32
Qimingokay, moving on13:32
Qiming#topic Receiver13:32
*** openstack changes topic to "Receiver (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:32
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QimingI don't think Julio will have cycles in the coming weeks13:32
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Qimingso I'm gonna take over that13:32
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Yanyanhuok13:33
Qiming#topic lock breaker13:33
*** openstack changes topic to "lock breaker (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:33
elynn__I will13:33
elynn__find a way to add related tests this week13:33
Qiminghaven't do some real tests on the lock breaker thing13:33
Qimingcool, thanks, god13:34
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Qiming#topic parser test case13:34
*** openstack changes topic to "parser test case (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:34
Yanyanhuelynn__, great13:34
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lixinhuicool13:34
Qimingem ... anyone want to claim this?13:34
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elynn__I can do that13:35
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Qimingthanks, god^213:35
elynn__;)13:35
Qiming#topic functional tests13:35
*** openstack changes topic to "functional tests (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:35
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YanyanhuI think after DB sync issue is resolved, we can have a clean basement for new coming test cases13:36
Qimingwe are almost there?13:36
Yanyanhuespecially for those ones about lock13:36
Yanyanhuyes13:36
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Yanyanhuhope can finish it this week13:36
Qimingit is rebased on the webhook patch?13:36
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Yanyanhuyes, I rebased it13:37
Qimingcool13:37
elynn__good to hear!13:37
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Yanyanhulets wait for the result :)13:37
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QimingI was thinking maybe not just mark_succeed needs this, other similar functions will needed the fix as well13:37
Qimingfor completeness13:37
Qiming#topic bug clearance13:38
*** openstack changes topic to "bug clearance (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:38
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QimingI did spend some time on reviewing the bugs, but ... I need to spend more13:38
Qimingmanually mark them as 'fix released'13:39
Yanyanhuit's a hard work...13:39
Qimingthis will be done automatically in future, fortunately13:39
lixinhuirobot model13:39
haiweithere are many ones which are open?13:39
YanyanhuQiming,  http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081612.html this mail link you shared13:39
Qiminghaiwei, you got to do an 'advanced' search, to find the open ones13:39
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Qimingcurrently, 'fix commited' ones are still not treated as closed13:40
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Qiminglet's take a look at the blueprints?13:41
Qiming#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/senlin/+specs?show=all13:41
Yanyanhuok13:41
haiweisome are started but not approved13:41
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Yanyanhumost backlogs have been marked as implemented13:41
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Qimingem ...13:42
Qiminglock breaker patches were not linking back the the bp13:43
elynn__Seems most of my patch didn't link back to launchpad13:43
YanyanhuI can see three patches there13:43
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elynn__Hmm, This BP have all my patches links.13:44
Yanyanhuthis one? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/senlin/+spec/lock-breaker13:44
Qimingokay, maybe because it was not approved?13:44
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haiweiI don't think so Qiming13:45
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Qimingokay, maybe this has to be manually reviewed13:46
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Qiming#topic open discussions13:47
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:47
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haiweielynn__ has submitted a patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254254/413:48
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Qiminganything folks want to discuss?13:48
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elynn__ah, this one13:49
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haiweiI am a little confused about the original implement13:49
Yanyanhuquick question about action API rework. So we still have action_id returned back in resp body right?13:49
elynn__haiwei: You mean after policy/profile_create, we should retrieve policy again ?13:49
QimingYanyanhu, it was not mentioned anywhere13:50
haiweiYanyanhu, I think so, client side is using it13:50
Yanyanhuyes, just check the code and feel so13:50
QimingI was thinking about the same question13:50
Qiminghowever, no one is preventing us from doing so13:51
haiweielynn__ I just don't know why we should both support policy_id and policy13:51
haiweiQiming, what question?13:51
Qimingreturning action id in body13:52
haiweielynn__  since only one way is in effect13:52
elynn__Good question, the codes are already there before I modify it... If use policy, we can save a call to get resource back.13:52
Qimingwhether we should do that, my feeling is that it is okay, no one said 202 cannot return a body13:52
haiweifor update, we do return a body13:53
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elynn__haiwei: It's ok to remove policy support and always retrieve resource after creation.13:53
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haiweiI feel the same way, elynn__13:54
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QimingI was lost, seems the patch is about profiles, and you are talking about policies13:54
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Yanyanhu:)13:54
elynn__Qiming: It's a bug report by you13:55
haiweipolicy should be done exactly as profile, but it is not13:55
haiweiI don't know why13:55
YanyanhuQiming, about the action_id. I agree to keep it in resp body13:55
Qimingah, that title should be changed13:55
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QimingI mean the commit message13:55
Qimingit is talking about both profile and policy, but the patch only fixes profile, not policy, that is the issue you are talking about?13:56
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elynn__I just make them behave the same.13:56
elynn__this patch touches both of them.13:56
elynn__Qiming: It also fixes policy13:57
haiweiactually no, I don't know both policy_id and policy are both in the parameters Qiming13:57
elynn__Qiming: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254254/4/senlinclient/v1/client.py L9013:57
haiweiI am lost too when reviewing this patch for the first time13:58
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elynn__heihei, Seems my commit message mislead you...13:58
Qimingem... need some time to understand the 'extra_attrs' parameter13:58
elynn__If extra_attrs is True ,will use response body to update resource attributes13:59
Qimingsdk code says so?13:59
elynn__like created_time, so that we can display them correctly.13:59
elynn__No...13:59
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Qimingokay, let's continue in #senlin14:00
haiweitime is up14:00
Qiming#endmeeting14:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"14:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 14:00:20 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-12-08-13.00.html14:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-12-08-13.00.txt14:00
Qimingthanks guys14:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-12-08-13.00.log.html14:00
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armaxping15:00
HenryGpong15:00
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armaxcarl_baldwin, kevinbenton, dougwig, HenryG, amotoki ping15:00
armaxmestery won’t be joining us15:01
armaxhe’ll provide a doctor letter on behalf of his wife15:01
armaxbut it looks like it might be just you and me HenryG15:02
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armaxthat’s energizing15:02
* haleyb is here to lurk if that helps15:02
HenryGarmax: then it should go fast15:02
* neiljerram is lurking in case helpful15:02
carl_baldwinpong15:02
amotokihi15:02
dougwigO/15:02
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armaxwe have almost universal attendance15:02
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* carl_baldwin sorry hens15:02
* carl_baldwin sorry he is late15:03
carl_baldwinstupid autocorrect15:03
armaxkevinbenton looks to be the latest of all15:03
armaxhe probably had a late nite fixing bugs15:03
armaxlet’s get started15:03
njohnstono/15:03
armax#startmeeting neutron_drivers15:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 15:03:41 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is armax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)"15:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers'15:03
armaxjust to provide a snapshot15:04
armaxwe have 0 new RFE15:04
armax19 confirmed RFE15:04
armaxand 10 triaged15:04
armaxwe’ve been going over the triaged ones over this meeting15:04
armaxfor anyone who is not familiar with the format of this meeting15:05
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armaxwe assume that the triaged ones are those that have had a reasonable offline discussion already15:05
armaxand we make a synchronous decision during the online meeting15:05
armaxwe go over bugs in the order they have been received15:05
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armaxthe members of the drivers team process the confirmed bugs offline and move them to triaged when there’s been enough offline discussion15:06
armaxanyone is welcome to attend and contribute15:06
armaxok15:06
armaxlet’s dive in15:06
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armaxyou guys with me?15:07
dougwigWith bells on15:07
armaxbug 146446515:07
openstackbug 1464465 in neutron "binding_type improvements to simplify Nova interactions" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/146446515:07
* carl_baldwin didn't know all of that. now he does15:07
armaxthis was reported by ianw a while back15:08
* njohnston is appreciative for the process clarification, thanks armax15:08
armaxI recall kevinbenton making positive comments on this15:08
armaxunfortunately most of the heavy lifting is in nova15:08
armaxread comment #315:08
armaxhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1464465/comments/315:08
openstackLaunchpad bug 1464465 in neutron "binding_type improvements to simplify Nova interactions" [Wishlist,Triaged]15:08
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HenryGWrong ian FYI15:09
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armaxHenryG: thanks15:09
armaxHenryG: I knew the irc looked funky15:09
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carl_baldwinanyone know if progress was made on the nova spec?15:10
armaxnova is in freeze right now15:10
armaxcarl_baldwin: I don’t think it made it15:10
armaxI spoke with the Nova ptl15:10
dougwigis this similar to the vif library stuff?15:10
armaxand they will be accepting only exception for priority items15:10
armaxdougwig: no15:10
amotokihow is os-vif effort going? I think it is related too.15:11
armaxbut the sounds of it15:11
armaxamotoki: yes15:11
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armaxamotoki: it is tangentially related15:11
armaxso I’d be tempted to say: any effort at simplying the interface betweeren nova and neutron is +2 from me15:11
armaxbut15:11
armaxthe devils is in the details15:11
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* kevinbenton arrives late 15:12
armaxkevinbenton: there you are!15:12
amotokiagree. it would be nice if we can sync with nova progress.15:12
armaxanyhow let’s follow dougwig’s suggestion to time box bug discussion15:12
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carl_baldwinIt kind of seems there isn't much we can do about this one until it is a Nova priority.15:12
armaxamotoki: I’ll sync up with nova15:12
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armaxcarl_baldwin: right, let me comment on this one, I think we should approve in principle, meaning we’ll give it enough attention at least from a specification point of view15:13
armaxthe actual work may end up starting post-mitaka15:13
carl_baldwin++15:13
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dougwig+115:13
amotoki+115:14
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armax#bug 146823615:14
openstackbug 1468236 in neutron "enable neutron support distributed DHCP agents" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1468236 - Assigned to shihanzhang (shihanzhang)15:14
armaxthis is a tough nut to crack15:14
armaxthere’s been a long discussion15:14
armaxtwo camps afaik15:14
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armaxone that says: going fully distributed may be overkill and raise more problems than it solves15:15
armaxthe other: ‘we gotta distributed all the things because it’s the right thing to do no matter what'15:15
armaxsorry for oversimplifying15:16
neiljerramI guess that's me; but I was just trying to add useful info; not really in any 'camp'15:16
armaxneiljerram: your input was highly appreciated15:16
shzthx neil15:16
armaxand I agree with most of your points15:16
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HenryGI am no dhcp expert but it seems to me dnsmasq is a constraint for doing distribution nicely15:16
armaxthe problem I personally see is that dhcp is not really where the pain point lies from a scale perspective15:16
armaxdhcp gets out of the way relatively quickly15:17
armaxwe have a somewhat nice HA dhcp story15:17
dougwigwhere does it bottleneck?15:17
kevinbenton(as long as you have them spread across enough agents)15:17
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armaxkevinbenton: we have load based scheduling now15:18
armaxand distributing dhcp over computes with an agent based approach is a huge no-no from me15:18
kevinbentonarmax: right, but people that host 10000 networks on two agents run into issues15:18
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armaxif DVR taught us anything is that we should be very careful on disseminating control plane logic all over the code base15:18
armaxkevinbenton: so run more15:18
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kevinbentonarmax: that's what I was saying15:19
shzthe centralized dhcp service haa same problems15:19
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armaxkevinbenton: adding more agents should address the scaling need15:20
armaxkevinbenton: no?15:20
armaxisn’t that what you’re saying?15:20
kevinbentonYes15:20
kevinbentonRun it on every compute node and you won't have an issue15:20
amotokiwhy can't we run multiple agents on compute node the current way?15:20
armaxkevinbenton: right, but you could do that already15:20
armaxno changes whatsoever15:20
amotokiit's same as what kevin says15:20
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armaxthere’s nothing today in the neutron archicteture that prevents you from running a dhcp agent on every host of your cloud15:21
armaxand I know of customers who do15:21
amotokii know too.15:21
armaxso as far as I am concerned, if you do want to use a dhcp-based approach to distribute dhcp agents15:21
armaxyou can do that already15:21
armaxnow15:21
armaxthat can bring the control plane issues that neiljerram mentioned15:22
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dougwigwe're past the timebox on this one, fyi.15:22
armaxbut I really don’t want to go down the path of optimizing a deployment architecture that’s atypical anyway15:22
kevinbentonarmax: right. I'm saying I don't think this is a high priority because we can schedule multiple per network and have agents on every node15:22
armaxdougwig: thanks dougwig15:22
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armaxkevinbenton: indeed15:22
armaxkevinbenton: in other words we already have building blocks to address the concerns being reaised15:22
armaxkevinbenton: is there a fair statemnt?15:23
kevinbentonarmax: yes. Need a better justification for where current fails15:23
armaxkevinbenton: I’ll provide feedback on this one15:23
armaxbug 150824315:24
openstackbug 1508243 in neutron "Store Private Key Passphrase in Neutron-LBaaS for TLS Terminations" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/150824315:24
armaxwe talked about this one15:24
armaxbut said we’ll defer to the meetup15:24
armaxthat’s happening for lbaas15:24
armaxdougwig: can you remind us of the dates?15:24
dougwigjan 12th.15:24
armaxok15:24
armaxwe’ll keep it warm until them15:24
armaxthen15:24
armaxbug 150899715:24
openstackbug 1508997 in neutron "Reusable firewall rules" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/150899715:24
armaxthis is invalid15:24
armaxnext15:24
armax:)15:25
armaxbug 151619515:25
openstackbug 1516195 in neutron "Push all object information in AMQP notifications" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/151619515:25
armaxhas anyone had a chance to review the spec proposal?15:25
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kevinbentonThat sounds like a spec I wrote15:26
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armaxyes15:26
dougwigthe initial description sounds counter to how you usually make an event stream scale.15:26
carl_baldwinI gave it a once over.  Sounds like it is dependent on some versioning.15:26
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armaxwe need eyes on the spec15:27
armaxto make sure that kevinbenton is not rambling15:27
armaxbut he may be onto something15:27
kevinbentondougwig: you make an event stream scale by not providing enough information to be useful? :)15:27
armaxthe internal bus communitation is far from perfect15:27
dougwighttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/225995/15:27
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armaxso I15:27
dougwigkevinbenton: exactly, i'll take it to the spec. plus you get upgrade issues galore.15:27
armaxso I’d say, let’s read the spec, see how sounds it is15:27
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armaxand then we make an executive decision15:28
kevinbentondougwig: upgrade is dealt with with objects15:28
armaxI think it’s premature to make a decision now15:28
kevinbentonQoS already took this path, so we need to fix them either way15:28
dougwigkevinbenton: i need to read your spec. i'm talking out of my ass right now.15:29
armaxkevinbenton: there’s enough flexibility for any feature to take its own path in having agent synchronize with the server15:29
dougwigarmax: you really want every agent making up its own rpc? that sounds like madness.15:30
armaxkevinbenton: as much as I love consistency, that doesn’t necessarily mean that we should go over and flip everything15:30
amotokiwe need to break down rpc call from server to agent. there are a lot of mess in rpc versioning in this direction.15:30
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armaxdougwig: no, I am talking about the existing realitiy15:30
kevinbentonarmax: this isn't for consistency, it's because I think it's a better pattern15:31
amotokii think we need some preparetion before doing it. but i need to read the spec.15:31
armaxkevinbenton: and I don’t disagree15:31
armaxkevinbenton: all I am saying, let’s spend some time going over the details15:31
kevinbentonBut they have a race condition right now, which is what I was referring to when I said they needed to be fixed15:31
armaxkevinbenton: I see that we hardly had any meaningful discussion on this one15:31
armaxto make an informed decision15:32
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dougwigpast the timebox.  punt and review spec?15:33
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* carl_baldwin will review spec15:33
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armaxdougwig: let’s make sure we review the spec this week15:33
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armaxdougwig: I am in favor of revisiting the communication pattern15:33
dougwigarmax: +115:33
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armaxbut I don’t want to replace a set of problems with another15:34
armaxbug 151808715:34
openstackbug 1518087 in neutron "[RFE] security group event need be enforced by at least one mech driver" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/151808715:34
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armaxso I have kept an eye on this one ever since it was submitted15:35
armaxand I am honestly not sold on the rationale15:35
armaxin the latest form of the RFE15:36
armaxthe author is advocating for overhauling the MD mechanism to allow for enforcement of security groups15:36
armaxby at least one mech driver15:36
armaxmy feedback was two-fold: a) today network creation is fully delagated to MD’s just as well and there’s no mechanism for enforcing the creation on at least by one driver, so this RFE should not be limited to SG only15:37
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kevinbentonSo making port binding fail if nobody reported they applied security groups15:38
kevinbentonarmax: that's not the same though15:38
dougwigare sg's an l2 or l3 construct? i guess i never really considered them as l2 related from a high-level.15:38
armaxb) actually, this sounds like overengineering, because any deployer who wants to use more than one mech-driver will have to know in advance if the two mech drivers are really compatible15:38
armaxby ranning some validation tests before going to prod15:39
amotokii think it is the role of MD which makes the lowest level binding.15:39
armaxdougwig: agreed, but ML2 is anything but15:39
kevinbentonarmax: Yeah, saying 'run tempest' seems legitimate15:39
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armaxI am arguing whether careful planning would allow for this issue not to show up in prod15:40
armaxit sounds too little too late to detect this issue at run time15:40
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dougwigi think the point of the rfe is that there's too much magic that you have to *just know* before prod, and we should start enforcing some of it, like, SG's that actually work as advertised.15:41
dougwigi may be reading between the lines too much.15:41
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armaxdougwig: that15:41
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kevinbentonBut that's what tempest will tell you15:41
armaxdougwig: that’s a fair point15:41
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armaxdougwig: but what does enforcement tell you? That your MD’s of choice don’t work together well?15:42
armaxdougwig: you don’t go to prod willy nilly do you?15:42
armax:)15:42
amotokiit sounds a reasonable assumption that operators do some functional tests in advance :)15:43
dougwigi certainly don't run tempest first, but then, i'm not an operator.  :)15:43
armaxdougwig: either tempest of your validation suite of choice15:43
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dougwigstill, i can't think of any software package off the top of my head that gives the advice of, "stuff might work. run some test frameworks first to make sure."15:43
armaxdougwig: I’d argue that you go and make sure your expectations are met before handing over the environment to your user15:43
armaxs15:43
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armaxdougwig: you just described openstack!15:44
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kevinbentondougwig: you've never used linux device drivers have you :)15:44
* armax teases15:44
dougwigarmax: i'm not debating that point; just the degree to which we expect our ops to basically be devs.15:44
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dougwigpast double timebox on this one so far, btw.15:44
HenryGcan something be done in sanity_check.py?15:44
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armaxok, I’ll go over the spec one more time and perhaps dougwig can do the same15:45
kevinbentonHenryG: the issue is that a combination of drivers could fail to do it15:45
armaxwe can talk about this again next week, but I am provisionally not in favor of this one15:45
kevinbentonSriov won't have sg, but OVS will15:46
armaxbug #152129115:46
openstackbug 1521291 in neutron "[RFE] Transition neutron CLI from python-neutronclient to python-openstackclient" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/152129115:46
kevinbentonSo you can't know until after a port is bound15:46
dougwigso, you're provisionally not in favor based on implementation flaws, or the use case being bad? because i think the rfe should focus on the latter, whereas we're all looking at this and groaning, "oh boy, that'd suck in ml2."15:47
dougwigwill take it to the spec.15:48
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armaxdougwig: ack15:48
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HenryGI get the impression the osc folks have got quite far along with supporting neutron. amotoki, what do you think?15:48
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armaxas for bug 1521291, I think we’re all universally in favor of some progress on this front15:48
openstackbug 1521291 in neutron "[RFE] Transition neutron CLI from python-neutronclient to python-openstackclient" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/152129115:48
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amotokii think we can move forward osc implementation15:49
armaxI checked with nova what the latest is on the novaclient integration15:49
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amotokibut it needs more time until it becomes mature.15:49
armaxwe need to make sure we don’t overlap with their client, because it also allows for some networking related operations15:49
amotokiI think there is no need to block the effort from our side.15:49
armaxamotoki: agreed15:49
armaxamotoki: one point I’d like to make though is: we need to set expectations15:50
amotokithe first milestone is feature parity to the current neutronclient.15:50
armaxamotoki: because I think it’s not clear where the OSC starts and where it ends, and whether it’s meant to make the native client superseded15:50
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amotokii understand your point.15:51
dougwigamotoki: feature parity with or without extensions? is there a similar mechanism? is there a shim to use old extensions?15:52
amotokiosc natively supports the extension mechanism thru entry_points.15:52
armaxamotoki: I would like to see some document, either a spec or a devref, probably a devref that explain what the future for the clients looks like15:52
amotokiarmax: totally agree.15:52
dougwig+115:53
amotokithere are sevearl points to be clarified before moving it forward.15:53
armaxamotoki: and that should serve developers so that they redirected correctly for their client efforts15:53
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amotokiin neutron devref?15:53
armaxthen we’d need to have user docs, but that’s for later when things have reached maturity15:53
armaxamotoki: best in the client devref15:54
amotokigot it. sounds good.15:54
armaxamotoki: btw I don’t think that that has an entry point on docs.o.o15:54
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dougwigin that doc, i'd like to see, when do they expect 1.0, when will docs support it, what is the deprecation plan for the old neutronclient, in addition to the 'how'.15:54
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armaxI’ll comment on the RFE, but I think we all agree some progress here is in order and if we have volunteers we should encourage to work on it15:55
amotokifor client, documents on docs.o.o are for released version.15:55
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armaxamotoki: I’ll have a look last time I checked I couldnt’ find it15:55
armaxamotoki: you happy to sponsor this initiative?15:55
amotokiarmax: sure15:55
armaxamotoki: good stuff15:56
amotokiarmax: you need to follow "Language Bindings and Python Clients" instead of "python developer documentation".15:56
armaxok I’ll look it up15:56
armaxnext we have 3 bugs that apparently have both tags RFE and RFE-APPROVED15:57
armaxdougwig I think is at fault for that :)15:57
armaxbug 152321915:57
openstackbug 1523219 in neutron "[RFE] Support X-Forwarded-For header in LBaaSv2" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1523219 - Assigned to Kobi Samoray (ksamoray)15:57
armaxbug 152322215:57
openstackbug 1523222 in neutron "LBaaSv2 TLS support is limited to offloading" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1523222 - Assigned to Kobi Samoray (ksamoray)15:57
armaxand15:57
armaxbug 152323115:57
openstackbug 1523231 in neutron "LBaaSv2 HTTP, HTTPS health monitor validates only return code" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1523231 - Assigned to Kobi Samoray (ksamoray)15:57
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armaxif these are turned out these quickly they probably shouldn’t be RFE15:58
dougwigi think they're all no brainers if they have a resource.  constrained, make sense, widely used in industry, don't bring up any general neutron issues.15:58
armaxthese basically overtook a lot of bugs that have been in the pile for a while15:58
armaxand that’s not fair15:58
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dougwighmm, i may have gorked the process, but i thought we could punt the drivers meeting for the obvious stuff? i was trying to save time.15:59
armaxso, they are minor enhancement, well scoped things that fix something that you think it’s broken15:59
armaxthey are probably not RFE in the first place15:59
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dougwigwait, isn't that exactly what an rfe is?  not a bug, needs to be tracked?15:59
armaxwe can discuss this offline15:59
armax#endmeeting15:59
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"15:59
dougwigok.15:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 15:59:58 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-12-08-15.03.html16:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-12-08-15.03.txt16:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-12-08-15.03.log.html16:00
armaxthanks for joining!16:00
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amotokithanks16:00
carl_baldwinthanks!16:02
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dstaneknotmorgan: you hanging around?16:13
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notmorgandstanek: hmm?16:13
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dstaneknotmorgan: have you thought much about the testing of legacy driver interfaces with regards to driver versioning?16:14
notmorganNope16:14
dstaneknotmorgan: let me run this by you and maybe you can mull it over today...16:15
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dstanekin https://review.openstack.org/#/c/242853/29/ the old SQL driver is kept around specifically for unit testing to make sure we can support V8 drivers using a V9 manager16:16
dstanekthe architecture is simple the Manager always uses the newest interface. if keystone is configured with an older driver interface it is wrapped with an adapter16:16
dstanekthe problem right now is that if both models are loaded into memory, i think that one of them will win out when the table is created since they both want the same table name.16:17
dstaneknotmorgan: lots of way to solve this like having the old driver user a _v8 suffix for the table name. not sure what i'd do yet.16:18
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notmorgandstanek: I think you described the initial plan16:22
notmorganI don't know how to resolve the table schema differences16:22
notmorgandstanek: honestly... I am a lot less interested in that stuff ATM. :(  trying to stay focused on client/ksa things.16:23
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dstaneknotmorgan: sure, i was hoping you had already thought about it :-(16:24
notmorganNope =\16:24
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asselin_#startmeeting thirdparty17:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 17:01:23 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is asselin_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:01
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openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: thirdparty)"17:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'thirdparty'17:01
asselin_who's here for thirdparty ci working group meeting?17:01
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asselin_mmedvede, you around?17:03
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mmedvedeasselin_: hi, yes17:03
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mmedvedewas it always called thirdparty, without a dash? my irc client pings me when it is third-party :)17:04
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asselin_maybe I messed up17:04
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asselin_#endmeeting17:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"17:05
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 17:05:21 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:05
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/thirdparty/2015/thirdparty.2015-12-08-17.01.html17:05
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/thirdparty/2015/thirdparty.2015-12-08-17.01.txt17:05
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/thirdparty/2015/thirdparty.2015-12-08-17.01.log.html17:05
asselin_#startmeeting third-party17:05
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 17:05:30 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is asselin_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:05
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:05
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:05
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'17:05
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asselin_who's here for thirdparty ci working group meeting?17:06
ja3moi17:06
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asselin_bonjour ja317:06
ja3konichiwa (my best phoenetic attempt17:06
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asselin_#link  agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#12.2F8.2F15_1700_UTC17:07
asselin_#topic announcements17:07
*** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:07
asselin_anyone have any announcements to make?17:08
ja3none here17:08
ja3best I could do would be teaser for a new-ish CI17:08
asselin_#topic CI Watch17:08
*** openstack changes topic to "CI Watch (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:08
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asselin_mmedvede, want to give an update?17:09
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mmedvedeI did send out an email requesting to add cores to puppet-ciwatch17:10
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mmedvedebecause it is official infra repo, probably would need to go through official nomination if any of us wants to get added17:10
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mmedvedefor now, infra/infra-core groups can approve changes there17:11
asselin_do you have a link to the e-mail request?17:11
* mmedvede looking17:11
asselin_I see pleia2 responded. We'll need fungi to chime in17:12
fungimmedvede: asselin_: right, this is an infra puppet module, correct?17:12
asselin_yes17:13
fungiwe have a dedicated infra-puppet-core team for those17:13
fungithey should already have access set up17:13
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mmedvedefungi: I am fine with this, as long as infra team has time to review at this initial phase17:13
fungimmedvede: we should see about expanding that group with people who want to review that module and others as well17:14
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fungithe challenge is making sure we maintain some sort of consistency across infra-governed puppet modules17:14
asselin_yeah, currently it's really just infra-core and crinkle17:14
mmedvederight now I am the only one who is working on that module. +1 for enforcing consistency17:15
fungiand yolanda and nibalizer17:15
asselin_they're core now right?17:15
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fungihave been for months17:15
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fungibut we can certainly discuss expanding that group further to handle the review load17:15
mmedvedefungi: while you are here, myself and asselin_ are cores in ciwatch project. There is a lot of refactoring needs to happen there, as it did not start out as infra project17:16
mmedvedeso we were, maybe wrongfully, approving our patches there17:16
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funginah, that's fine17:17
nibalizeralso crinkle has puppet-core17:17
fungiprojects like that in their infancy tend to have small dedicated review groups17:17
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nibalizerasselin_: mmedvede feel free to ping me for reviews if I am not getting to them in my normal pattern17:17
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mmedvedenibalizer: thanks! would do. Not many reviews there at the moment17:18
asselin_nibalizer, 1st patch :) https://review.openstack.org/#/q/puppet-ciwatch,n,z17:18
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mmedvedeasselin_: thanks17:18
fungimmedvede: so given that you, asselin_ and skylerberg are the only dedicated core reviewers on ciwatch (infra-core are included more for oversight/emergencies) and the primary authors, it's expected you'll be approving each others patches17:18
asselin_fungi, +117:19
mmedvedefungi: cool!17:19
mmedvedewe have a blessing :)17:19
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asselin_mmedvede, so other than reviews, how's everything else going?17:21
mmedvede#link email request to add puppet-ciwatch cores17:21
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mmedvedeasselin_: my time was short last week (problems in our CI). Otherwise, we need to start adding testing17:21
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mmedvedeI think I mentioned that last week17:22
mmedvedebut most bad bugs were fixed, and ciwatch is running stable in our test deployments17:22
mmedvedewithout having tests, it is very hard to proceed17:23
asselin_+117:23
asselin_apoorvad, you around?17:23
mmedvedewhat blocks us requesting infra to deploy ciwatch is ability to reload config17:23
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asselin_what about restart?17:24
mmedvedebut config itself needs a lot of refactoring17:24
mmedvedeasselin_: you are thinking outside the box! :)17:24
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mmedvedecould use restart17:25
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apoorvadasselin_: yup17:25
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asselin_not as nice as reload, but can work if there's no state that needs to be saved17:25
mmedvede+117:26
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apoorvadmmedvede, asselin_ : ciwatch is running stable in my env as well.17:27
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asselin_apoorvad, are you using mmedvede puppet scripts?17:27
mmedvede#link http://ci-watch.tintri.com/project?project=nova17:27
apoorvadasselin_: yes sir!17:27
asselin_cool!17:28
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asselin_apoorvad, could you mention that in the review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/238606/617:28
apoorvadasselin_: sure17:29
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asselin_#action ci-watch next steps is to add some unit tests17:30
mmedvedeasselin_: also, should mention this "small" patch that brought up some issues with current config implementation: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252050/17:30
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mmedvede+117:30
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apoorvad+117:30
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mmedvedewe can approve 252050, and start working on unit tests. Once some of basics are in place, can do refactoring a bit easier17:31
apoorvadasselin_: Should we merge https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252050/ and then work on config refactoring?17:31
apoorvadmmedvede : +117:32
asselin_yeah, noticing I have the -1 now17:32
apoorvadmmedvede: I would work with you on unit test additions17:32
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asselin_ok +2. We'll certianly have more follow-ups.17:34
mmedvedeapoorvad: thanks. I was looking into reusing oslotest, that was used in cookiecutter template17:34
mmedvedeasettle: apoorvad: any objection to oslotest? I thought it could be too specific to OpenStack17:34
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apoorvadmmedvede: Frankly, I have not worked with it.17:35
asselin_what is used for the other infra tools?17:35
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mmedvedeasselin_: python testtools for zuul17:36
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asselin_I'm seeing the same for nodepool17:37
mmedvedeI think oslotest wraps a lot of other tools, and adds ability to test cross-project etc17:37
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apoorvadasselin_, mmedvede: Since skylerberg is not active these days, can I replace him as ciwatch core reviewer?17:37
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asselin_+1 from me17:39
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mmedvedeno objections. Only three of us are more or less active there at the moment. And I trust we can keep it moving in the right direction17:40
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asselin_mmedvede, do you recommend oslotest for testtools?17:41
apoorvadasselin_, mmedvede: thanks17:41
asselin_s/for/over17:42
mmedvedeasselin_: what would be a correct way to replace a core? official e-mail?17:42
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mmedvedeasselin_: I have not used either much17:42
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mmedvedeasselin_: so if infra is using testtools for two of their big projects, it would be a good start17:42
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asselin_mmedvede, not sure. let's ask in infra17:43
mmedvedekeeping it consistent would be good17:43
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asselin_mmedvede, yes, I like consistency, but also familiarity. Seems consistency is winning here17:43
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mmedvedefamiliarity and consistency come together, I thought. Less different things to trip over17:44
mmedvedeasselin_: it would be clearer as we add actual testing. I'll take a deeper look in what oslotest adds17:45
asselin_mmedvede, ok17:46
asselin_#action mmedvede to compare oslotest and testtools17:46
asselin_mmedvede, apoorvad are we going to include the 'features' in the agenda in launchpad?17:47
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asselin_agenda here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#12.2F8.2F15_1700_UTC17:48
asselin_would those be launchpad blueprints?17:48
mmedvedeThe bigger items could be blueprints, e.g. separate backend from frontend is big17:49
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apoorvadmmedvede: +17:50
apoorvad+217:50
apoorvad+1 :)17:50
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mmedvedeasselin_: do you think they all should be blueprints?17:52
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asselin_well, they shouldn't be line items in an agenda, so if not a blueprint, then a bug 'feature'.17:52
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asselin_But I'm thinking of just created blueprints for all of them, title only.17:53
asselin_just creating*17:53
mmedvedewe can always use 'partial-bug' in commits17:53
mmedvedeso we keep track of bigger features17:53
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mmedvedeasselin_: ok, lets do blueprints17:54
asselin_#action asselin to created initial blueprints for desired features.17:54
asselin_anything else? we've got 6 minutes17:54
asselin_#topic Common-CI Solution17:55
*** openstack changes topic to "Common-CI Solution (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:55
asselin_realy quick, lots of the previous issues/patches are now merged.17:55
asselin_there's one more know issue fixed here17:55
asselin_#link Open Issue: Cannot run jobs on jenkins master: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252768/17:55
asselin_#Topic Open Discussion17:56
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:56
asselin_anything else to discuss?17:56
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asselin_ok then, thanks everyone!17:57
asselin_#endmeeting17:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"17:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 17:58:00 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-17.05.html17:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-17.05.txt17:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-12-08-17.05.log.html17:58
mmedvedethanks asselin_ !17:58
apoorvadasselin_: mmedvede :thanks!17:58
ja3tschuss17:58
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stevemarpings for all the folks17:59
stevemarajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, claudiub, rderose, samleon, xek, MaxPC, tjcocozz17:59
lbragstadstevemar o/17:59
stevemaro/17:59
henrynashhi17:59
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stevemarkeystoners, ASSEMBLE!17:59
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davecheno/18:00
amakarovhi!18:00
nonameenternameo/18:00
HoloIRCUser1o/18:00
hogepodgeo/18:00
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stevemarHoloIRCUser1 needs a new nick18:00
gyee\o18:00
stevemar:)18:00
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stevemarnonameentername: glad to see you here!18:00
lhchengo/18:00
htrutao/18:00
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samueldmqhi18:00
HoloIRCUser1o/18:00
nonameenternamestevemar: thanks18:01
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stevemar#startmeeting keystone18:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 18:01:25 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:01
stevemarthanks for coming to this week's installment of keysone-meeting :)18:01
stevemarthe agenda is here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:01
stevemar#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:01
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ayoungHe yo!18:02
stevemarits rather light, i guess some folks are already in holiday mode18:02
stevemar#topic MFA18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "MFA (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
stevemarnonameentername: did you want to chat about this one?18:02
dstaneko/18:02
stevemar#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130376/18:02
stevemarthe review is up here ^18:03
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gyeedo it!18:03
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lbragstadgyee will you champion?18:03
topolo/18:03
stevemari know *a lot* of folks want this in18:03
dstanekgyee is a champion!18:03
nonameenternameYeah, basically I want to add another authntication type 'passcode' that is based on TOTP, HOTP18:03
gyeelbragstad, you mean like writing code?18:03
lbragstadgyee i think champion is dedicating review time18:03
lbragstadgyee owner is the one writing the code18:04
stevemarlbragstad: correct18:04
gyeelbragstad, sure, I am quite familiar with that one18:04
bknudsonwhat if the owner gets too busy?18:04
lbragstadgyee awesome18:04
nonameenternameand require users to specify both password and passcode for some domains and projects.18:04
stevemarbknudson: then someone else can pick up the work or we can see it in N18:04
lbragstadnonameentername how far along are you?18:04
lbragstadon the implementation?18:04
lbragstadif at all..18:04
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stevemarnonameentername: so the things i'm looking for in the spec... where are the API changes? what's the impact to non SQL users (ldap/federated/trust/etc)18:05
nonameenternameI already have a poc that has TOTP working for authenticate, but it's missing the database part that stores backend18:05
gyeeso as long as we do the time hash only18:05
gyeemanaging sequence is not fun18:05
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bknudsondo we need to change the current auth plugin framework we have in keystone?18:06
gyeeno18:06
nonameenternamestevemar: I can add api changes to the spec18:06
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gyeejust another plugin18:06
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nonameenternameit, will need an apy to enable / disable mfa for user, domain and project18:06
nonameentername*api18:07
nonameenternameand also to setup mfa for a specific user18:07
bknudsonit's unfortunate that we have to implement this in keystone. we already have federation so can't the idps do this?18:07
gyeenonameentername, you want to go that far?18:07
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gyeeso far we don't tied auth mechanism with users18:07
stevemarbknudson: so yeah, if i have google as my IDP, then i get MFA for free18:07
jamielennoxbknudson: ++18:07
bknudsonI guess it depends on how easy it is. Maybe it's only a few lines of code. In which case go ahead.18:08
lbragstadbut that's only for federation, right?18:08
stevemarlbragstad: correct18:08
bknudsonis there a python library for google auth?18:08
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nonameenternameWhat if a user wants to setup mfa for his own account without using federation?18:08
stevemarthis would be useful for sql accounts and possibly.... ldap?18:08
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stevemarnonameentername: right, theres definitely a use case for sql users18:09
jamielennoxnonameentername: i think it's more a case of if a provider wants to make those sort of requirements then it should be done via federation18:09
bknudsonI wish we'd get rid of sql users.18:09
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jamielennoxbecause this sounds to me like enhancing the SQL user store - which i thought we weren't doing18:09
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lbragstadwe also have the shadow user stuff coming18:09
lbragstaddoesn't that enhance the sql user store?18:10
stevemarlbragstad: not really18:10
jamielennoxlbragstad: that's more tracking than being source of truth18:10
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stevemarlbragstad: the biggest gain is for federated users18:10
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bknudsonfor sql users we've to the extras column so I don't care if we're expecting new fields.18:11
lhchengI think one reason the MFA needs to be in keystone is we want to setup MFA for certain projects/domain only. Can we do that in federation?18:11
stevemar"certain projects/domains"18:11
rderosemfa can be used with LDAP, correct; not only sql users18:11
stevemarcan you expand on that?18:11
stevemarrderose: thanks for confirming18:11
lhchengstevemar: the use case would be..18:12
stevemari thought it was likely to work with ldap18:12
bknudsonsince this doesn't actually require any changes to keystone I'm fine with it going ahead.18:12
lhchengI want to setup a global keystone to access my data center, and within the data center there would be different security zone.18:12
bknudsonlet's see the code18:12
nonameenternameIn a public cloud I setup a project and want users to use the project, but I only want them to use it when they have MFA enabled.18:12
gyeebknudson, it does, it depends how far we want to go18:12
stevemarbknudson: how would it not have changes to keystone?18:13
lhchengfor server running in higher security zone, I want higher security. The idea is have a project that can have access to higher security zone, and add MFA to those projects.18:13
bknudsonit's just a new plugin18:13
gyeeif we have to associate domain/project and user with auth mechanisms, this require framework changes18:13
lbragstadmost of the implementation lives in the authentication plugin18:13
bknudsonso you're not changing any existing code, only adding new18:13
stevemarthats the hope :)18:13
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jamielennoxwould we expect this to affect federtaed users?18:14
jamielennoxor want it to?18:14
bknudsonmaybe we can make the security zone thing explicit and work with any auth18:14
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stevemarnonameentername: update the spec to be explicit about what user's this will work for (I think just SQL and LDAP), and write out any new APIs as well.18:14
bknudsonmaybe give the user a role if they auth with some method and you can use that in policy?18:15
jamielennoxstevemar: well with shadow users table you'll pretty much get it anyway18:15
nonameenternamestevemar: ok, I can do that18:15
lbragstadso, no federated support for mfa initially (i'm not sure that seems right anyway?)18:15
bknudsonfederation already gives you mfa today18:15
stevemarnonameentername: i believe lhcheng and lbragstad are going to "champion" this spec18:15
bknudsonif you're using federation you don't need this18:15
topolbknudson how so?18:15
stevemarbknudson: right-o!18:15
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lbragstadright, so i'm not sure it makes sense to have federation in the scope of this sepc18:15
gyeefederation is orthogonal to MFA18:16
lbragstadspec*18:16
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davechenbknudson: how? +118:16
stevemartopol: the idp will have it for free18:16
bknudsonset up your identity provider to do mfa18:16
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stevemartopol: like how google tells me to enter the code it sends to my phone18:16
topolbknudson, k just checking. thought you would say that18:16
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topolstevemar +++18:16
stevemarnonameentername: you've got 2 TODOs and 2 champions18:16
stevemarupdate the spec and we'll approve18:16
gyeejust to be clear, this one is not about entering codes send to the phone18:17
nonameenternamestevemar: thanks18:17
gyeethis is strictly for time hash18:17
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stevemargyee: yes yes18:17
lbragstadso TOTP specific?18:17
bknudsonso federation is even better18:17
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nonameenternamegyee: this is not for sms, only totp, and hotp18:17
stevemarbknudson: it's always better18:17
gyeenonameetername, no sequence hash please18:17
jamielennoxwhere's ayoung, i expect he's going to have some opinions on how this is done18:17
gyeethat's very hard to manage18:17
gyeesyncing sequence number is not easy to implement18:17
stevemargyee: yes, it was just an example :)18:17
lbragstadgyee did you try this already ?18:17
jamielennoxand doing it in/out of keystone18:17
bknudsonI thought keystone supported auth with multiple roundtrips?18:18
nonameenternamegyee: ok, I can implement only totp and ignore hotp18:18
gyeelbragstad, we have some inhouse POCs awhile back18:18
ayoungNah, I never have opinions18:18
lbragstadgyee gotcha,18:18
jamielennoxbknudson: we could make it work, but not explicitly i think18:18
henrynashayoung: bland, quiet….18:18
jamielennoxayoung: you hadn't said anything for a while - typically i take that to mean you're not around :)18:18
stevemarcalling this topic finito18:19
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henrynashole18:19
stevemar#topic Domain Specific Roles18:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Domain Specific Roles (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:19
stevemar#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254139/18:19
ayoungjamielennox, was still catching up...my kneejerk reaction is "can we do this with federation"18:19
stevemarhenrynash gyee ayoung -- figure this mess out18:19
henrynashoh, didn;t know this was on here!18:19
gyeeI am struggling mightily with that one right now18:19
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ayoungwe tried OTP with SAML and basically had it working18:20
henrynashgyee: so see my comments to the link steve just posted18:20
ayoungtry to keep crypto stuff out of Python if possible.18:20
henrynash(just for background to all): Since gyee had argued for using a role-group concept for Domain Specific Roles, I posted a review (just for discussion) on how that would look: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254139/18:20
jamielennoxayoung: mine to, was mentioned18:20
ayoungbut...still need more details to make a firm recommendation18:20
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gyeehenrynash, we can more or less can accomplish role groups with user groups18:21
gyeeso role groups doesn't buy much18:21
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gyeeuser groups are essentially  perm templates18:22
stevemardomain specific roles are roles that a domain administrator can create/delete/assign, right?18:22
henrynashgyee: so *some* companies might, but others haev strict user groups defined in LDAP etc..  and don’t necessarily lend themslevs to this18:22
gyeeonly difference is that role groups have no targets18:22
lbragstadstevemar that's what I was thinking18:22
topolstevemar I hope so18:22
henrynashstevemar: yes18:22
lbragstadso these roles only mean anything within that domain, how does that tie in with policy?18:22
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gyeestevemar, yes, but we can't prevent the creator from mapping them to some global roles18:23
samueldmqlbragstad: yes, they don't go into the policies, only globalroles go18:23
ayounggyee, so...we could split groups out of the identity backend18:23
henrynashand I think gyee, the nub of your concern is that it will be confusing in the case of DSRs based on implied roles,….that the DSR iteself doesn;t go in the token18:23
stevemarlbragstad: cause you don't want the domain admin to be able to create/delete/assign roles globally18:23
samueldmqlbragstad: they're expanded into global role when issueing  tokens18:23
lbragstadso domain roles won't be applied to other services?18:23
henrynashso see my comment and scenario I posted on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/254139/ - I really don;t see the confusion youare concerend about18:23
ayoungthat might make sense anyway.  It means that a user could get their identity from one domain, and their groups from a second18:24
gyeehenrynash, right, that was my original concern18:24
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henrynashlbragstad: DSRs are mapped into global roles…which is what go esin the token18:24
samueldmqlbragstad: no, other services only need to know about global roles18:24
samueldmqhenrynash: ++18:24
lbragstadsamueldmq ok, so you have super granular global roles18:24
ayounggyee, so, I was thinking we do the "URL safe" approach.  If you go URL safe, then you can do18:24
david8huDomain admin can only delete/create/mod users, roles in his/her domain?18:25
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ayoungdomain/IBM/admin versuse domain/HP/admin vs domain/redhat/admin18:25
lbragstadand the domain roles are combinations of really granular global roles18:25
henrynashdavid8hu yes18:25
samueldmqlbragstad: yes and you can group them as you want, with custom names for your domain ,etc18:25
henrynashlbragstad: ++18:25
ayoungbut...not sure if having them in the token would ever be used to enforce policy18:25
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lbragstadsamueldmq henrynash gotcha, interesting18:25
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gyeeayoung, we can, but its useless till we can update the enforcement part18:25
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ayounggyee, while we could enforce on that now, I just don't know when that would be required18:26
gyeeright now role is unidimentional, not multidimentional18:26
jamielennoxayoung: they'd go in the token?18:26
ayoungI mean, yeah, you would have to edit policy by hand18:26
ayoungjamielennox, this is IF they go in the token, what would they look like18:26
henrynashremember (not wishing to be forward or nothin’) but we did vote on DSRs using implies roles alst week and got 7 For and 6 or 7 abstains, and none against18:26
gyeeif we agree that role is multidimentional, then we have some flexibility there18:26
ayoungjamielennox, I can't see a reason to put them into the token18:27
jamielennoxayoung: yea, not in token18:27
david8huhenrynash, if I create custom role within the domain I administers, are you going to have policy per domain?18:27
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lbragstadthe token will still only have the global roles18:27
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samueldmqgyee: what does that mean ? roles being unidimentional vs multidimentional ?18:27
gyeesamueldmq, it means instead of just a name, it is a set of attributes18:28
gyeerole.name, role.domain_id, role.type, etc18:28
henrynashdavid8hu: so you cannot cahneg the policy file as a domain admin…but the idea is that if yoru cloud provider has created a nice fine-grained policy file, you can use DSRs to better model what those mean to your users18:28
ayoungI kindof agree that what henrynash is working for here is due to the groups concept being taken, but really what we want.  This is an internal mapping step, from individual user to role assignment18:28
samueldmqgyee: so you basically want to expand the role entity, rather than creating a new first citizen in keystone ,18:28
ayoungI really don't want a new concept.  EIther go with DSRs, or rework groups18:29
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henrynashsamuedlmq, gyee: and of course that’s what the current DSR is….a special tyoe of role (that has a domain_id set)18:30
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gyeehenrynash, not really, we don't enforce it on the policy side18:30
gyeesince they don't return in token response18:31
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henrynashgyee: and absolutely don’t want them to…this is a pro onot a con18:31
samueldmqgyee: that'd cause headaches, we'd need to keep list of implied roles synced with endpoints ,etc18:31
ayounggroups might be a little strange.  When the assertion comes in, you would have REMOPTE_USER and REMOTE_GROUPS set. You'd make REMOTE_GROUPS to groups in the users own domain...or in any other domain...and the REMOTE_USER to group mapping would be either from the Federation mapping, or an explicit Federated user to group mapping from... where?18:31
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henrynashgyee: I have to ask you again to read what I posted in the review….I really do not see the confusion of DSRs not goiong in the token18:31
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ayoungSo, I kindof like DSRs as the abstraction, because they are Keystone specific data, not identity.18:32
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gyeehenrynash, if your support person comes to you and ask why don't they get that role as it was seemingly assigned, what do you do?18:33
ayoungI'd like to point out that this is why David CHadwick origianlly wanted the mapping to go from the assertion all the way to the roles, and to skip the group concept.18:33
ayounggyee, that was why I was asking about diagnostic APIS.  I think we would want that18:33
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henrynashgyee: so you have to think through teh scenario….the domain admin and project admin will know what the roels are18:34
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gyeeand figure out which DSRs to assign in order to get some specific role18:34
ayoung#link https://openstack.nimeyo.com/66396/openstack-dev-keystone-diagnostic-apis-for-keystone18:34
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henrynash(sorry to past this, but I already write this out):18:34
henrynash1) A public cloud provider wants to attract as many, diverse customers as possible18:34
henrynash2) To do that, they are likely to offer a flexible, fine-grained set of roles that are encoded in policy rules18:34
henrynash3) As part of the on-boarding of a customer (represented as a domain), they will give the domain admin the spec of what roles they must assign their used to give the permission to execute various APIs. These are set by the cloud provider, the domain admin has no control over this.18:34
henrynash4) Without DSRs the domain admin will either use this list or explain this list to their project admins for project within their domain. They'll work out (and probably circulate internally) how the set of roles defined by the cloud provider shod map onto what every usage model they have18:34
henrynash5) With DSRs, they'll encode that model in DSRs and use those (or tell their project admins to use those). So they'll be fully aware of what roles are cloud provider roles and which are DSRs.18:34
henrynash…hence I don’t see the confusion18:34
samueldmqgyee: DSRs should have very suggestive names (as they can be customized), so not too hard to realize that ?18:35
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gyeesamueldmq, its the working backward part, from token response18:36
ayounghenrynash, I think that any of us that spend time on the issue will come up with a similiar solution.  The real issue is what do we call them, and how do we implement without retolling the entire UI.18:36
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ayoungIf we assume Federation as the starting point (ID in SQL or LDAP is simpler) then there are several layers of indirection18:37
ayoungAssertion->identiyt (users, groups)->role assignments.  DSR adds an additional layer18:37
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ayoungAssertion->identiyt (users, groups)->DSRs->globalrole assignments.18:37
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henrynashayoung: agreed18:37
stevemarit would be an entry in the shadow table, preferably18:38
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ayoungSo, I stand firm on not wanting to add a new abstraction (rokle groups) but am flexible on which of the layers we modify18:38
ayoungstevemar, not quite18:38
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ayoungit would be keyed by the shadow talbes User iD, but these are additional layers of assignment18:38
stevemargyee: your issue with the current API is that policy will be hard to write?18:38
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gyeestevemar, DSRs still constraint by global roles18:39
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gyeeso if you make your policies and global fine grained that's fine18:39
gyeeglobal roles18:39
gyeelike one to one18:39
lbragstadi think gyee's problem is that it's hard to tell what your DSR is from the token response18:39
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gyeeone global role per API or something18:40
henrynashFor me, although I origionally propes role-groups 18 months ago and fought against implied roles for a while, amd convinced that our current (merged) DSR approach is the one we should do for.18:40
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samueldmqDSR (and implied roles) is about easing the way you assign global roles18:40
gyeebut I can't restrict domain-admin from seeing all the global roles18:40
henrynashgyee: in the end, that’s probably where it goes, but with some “cloud wide” grouping encoded in the policy file by teh cloud provdier18:40
samueldmqif you, as a deployer, don't think it does, just don't use it ?18:40
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stevemargyee: OK18:42
henrynashgyee: that’s a different problem18:42
ayoungI think we are going to want a diagnostic API no matter what solution we come to here18:42
gyeesamueldmq, so what kind of role can someone assign?18:42
stevemargyee: the current suggested API is just a new attribute to the roles API, it's pretty minimal, we can get away with have that option be experimental for 1 release18:42
samueldmqgyee: one (who is allowed to assign roles) can assign either global roles or DSR (from his domain) to someone else18:42
gyeeif someone have permission to assign roles, what kind of roles can they assign?18:42
henrynashgyee: I’m not trying to solve role hiding here18:42
stevemarwe can see how it works out and if it sucks, we can go to another design18:42
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gyeestevemar, sure, make it experimental then18:43
stevemargyee: the proposed spec is minimally invasive, let's try it out first18:43
ayoung++18:43
david8huCan domain admin assign the "admin" role to himself?18:43
henrynasharen’t all major new featiures experiemental18:43
stevemargyee: yep, we can add that to the documented APIs18:43
gyeestevemar, I am not worry about the implementation part, its all code18:43
gyeeits the APIs that I am loosing sleep over18:44
gyeeimplement can be changed anytime18:44
gyeeimplementation18:44
stevemargyee: right, but let's try it out first, if we dont like the API, we can rework it a bit since it's experimental18:44
stevemarjust like we did with service providers18:44
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ayoungdavid8hu, in order to solve what you are implying, we need the unified delegation spec18:45
stevemargyee: we cool?18:45
bknudsonyea, we coo'18:45
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gyeestevemar, sure, as our role assignment is pretty messy as is right now :)18:45
ayoungdavid8hu, unified delegation says "a user can only assign(delegate) roles that they themself have"18:45
stevemaralright :)18:45
topolcool18:45
stevemarayoung: gonna give davechen some time18:45
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stevemar#topic need to support delete/get V3 endpoints via V2 API18:46
henrynashabsolutely agree on it being experimental - all majoe new features should be experimental to start - that’s what we agreed a while back18:46
*** openstack changes topic to "need to support delete/get V3 endpoints via V2 API (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:46
ayounggyee, ponder over whether you would be happier with a modification to mapping or groups abstactions than this18:46
stevemardavechen: you've got about 10 minutes, sorry18:46
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davechenokay,18:46
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ayoungwhy do we need to do anything via V2?18:46
davechenit's fine, i am just wondering if we could support to do that.18:46
gyeeayoung, I don't want role groups18:46
bknudsonlet's not support this in v2 api18:46
davechensupport get/del endpoint via v2 api18:46
davechenbut it's currently possible to list v3 endponints18:47
davechenby v2 api18:47
david8huayoung, I have a usecase that combo of DSR and UD will solve.18:47
stevemarhow much work is it? just a few lines?18:47
davechenso, it's looks a little werid that we cannot get or delete. etc.18:47
ayoungdavechen, I'd be more prone to say "allow V3 API modify V2 stuff" than the reverse.  No changes to V2 if we can avoid it.18:47
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lbragstadat the summit we had the opposite discussion in our deprecation session i think?18:48
bknudsonkeystone v2 can be a little weird.18:48
davechenayoung: just keep it as is?18:48
lbragstadwe wanted to deprecate/remove everything that wasn't absolutely required v2 (like auth and validate)18:49
stevemardavechen: if a user is adding endpoints in v3, then how likely is it that they'll list endpoints with v2?18:49
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davechenbknudson: i agree that we should no add new ability for v2 api18:49
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rderosedavechen: what is the risk if we keep it as is?18:49
davechenstevemar: i am not saying add, but get and delete18:49
ayoungwhy delete?18:49
lbragstadrderose just the inconsistency?18:49
ayoungignoring get for the moment18:50
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stevemarrderose: i think the risk is pretty low18:50
davechenayoung: just from end use's persepctive, you can see these endpoint but you can do noting about it18:50
stevemardo we have a bug about this?18:50
davechenis that make sense?18:50
davechenstevemar: not yet18:50
bknudsonyou can do something about it. use the v3 api and do it18:50
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gyeedavechen, look, no touch OK :)18:50
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davechengyee: don't touch it?18:51
davechen:)18:51
dstanekdavechen: how often are people actually modifying/deleting endpoints?18:51
davechendstanek: not quite often, i think18:51
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lbragstadmodifying and deleting v3 endpoints through the v2 api18:51
stevemardavechen: unless someone is actually running into this error, then i say don't bother fixing18:51
davechendstanek: but it quite often for get18:51
dstanekstevemar: ++18:52
ayoungdavechen, reserving admin for V3 for any lingering V2 isms is a better bet18:52
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davechenget some info for specific endpoints18:52
dstanekdevananda: get works for things with a publicURL right?18:52
ayoungyou can read old data, or new data in an old format, but you need to use the new format to change it.18:52
davechenstevemar: gotcha18:52
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stevemari think it's settled that this is a `won't fix` issue18:52
dstanekstevemar: yey!18:53
stevemar#topic champions18:53
*** openstack changes topic to "champions (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:53
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stevemari wanted to share something i've been using to keep track of work18:53
stevemarheres a google doc for anyone to comment on: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MD1WJNasuDkDFstK6kgfZiA7SkIGKdH6n69AoVaTy1g/edit?usp=sharing18:53
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stevemarcores, add yourself as "champions" meaning you *will* review the spec18:54
stevemarerr implementation*18:54
stevemari'll be keeping track of links for implementation, somehow, probably a gist18:54
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gyeestevemar, you'll be adding MFA?18:54
stevemartry not to over commit yourself18:55
henrynashstevemar: like it18:55
stevemargyee: yes, it was blessed just 30 minutes ago LO18:55
samueldmqstevemar: great idea!18:55
stevemar:P18:55
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bknudsonalso, leave lots of room for reviewing bug fixes.18:55
bknudsonbecause we still have to do that, too18:55
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stevemarthats the goal18:55
stevemarbknudson: on that note...18:55
stevemari've updated LP to reflect ALL of our deliverable for mitaka: https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/mitaka-218:55
stevemarso far nothing is in mitaka-318:56
stevemarmitaka-2 ends in ~45 days18:56
henrynashstevemar: the one thing I would add is maybe the Phase 1 of reseller (projects acting as toplevel domains)….althoug the spec was approved in a previous cycle, most of the code is up for review in M18:56
gyeewow, the slots are filling up, fast18:56
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stevemarfeel free to add more slots ... i don't mind additional champs :)18:56
lbragstadgyee do you want to champion the mfa stuff?18:57
stevemarso please HAVE a patch up for review BEFORE MITAKA-2 ENDS!18:57
gyeelbragstad, yes18:57
stevemarotherwise it'll get booted to N :)18:57
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stevemarif the patch is not yet merged, we can still land stuff in M3, even though it was targeted for M218:57
amakarovstevemar, ayoung  I expect unified delegation code to be finished in mitaka timeframe, and the problem is that spec is being modified in the process. Should I just do what I do now and propose everything in N release?18:58
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stevemaramakarov: that sounds like a good plan18:58
stevemarwe can slide that right into N118:58
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stevemari don't want to overcommit ourselves18:58
amakarovstevemar, ok18:58
bknudsonfunctional testing is not on the doc18:58
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bknudsonpython3 support is not on the doc18:59
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stevemarbknudson: it's "ongoing" at the bottom of the doc18:59
stevemarboth are18:59
lbragstadyep18:59
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bknudsonwhat's ongoing?18:59
bknudsonhow is that different than the other work?18:59
stevemarbknudson: they span many releases18:59
* lbragstad high fives bknudson 18:59
samueldmqstevemar: fyi: I am grabbing functional tests on keystoneclient18:59
lbragstadtag team online migrations!18:59
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bknudsonwe're not planning to complete these for M?18:59
ayoungamakarov and if there are any pre-reqs we can do in M that are non-disruptive, we can merge them when they are ready.18:59
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stevemarbknudson: ideally we should19:00
dstanekstevemar: python3 shouldn't it should be completed in M19:00
stevemarout of time!19:00
stevemar#endmeeting19:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 19:00:10 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
ayoungHaving the spec reflect the code is ++19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-12-08-18.01.html19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-12-08-18.01.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-12-08-18.01.log.html19:00
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stevemarkeystoners, roll out!19:00
fungiinfra team, assemble!19:00
fungi#startmeeting infra19:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 19:00:25 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:00
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:00
AJaeger\o/19:00
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fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:00
fungiwe have a _very_ full agenda so i'm going to timebox the topics and rearrange the order a little to make sure we hit scheduling-critical discussions19:00
SotKo/19:00
fungiif i cut you off in the middle of discussing something, please don't take offense and make a note to continue with it on the mailing list or in the infra channel after we're done19:00
funginow, on with the show!19:00
fungi#topic Announcements [timebox 1 minute, until 19:01]19:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements [timebox 1 minute, until 19:01] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
fungi#info Reminder: Gerrit 2.11 upgrade is now scheduled for Wednesday of next week, December 16, 17:00 UTC.19:01
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fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/081037.html19:01
jhesketho/19:01
fungi#topic Actions from last meeting [timebox 1 minute, until 19:02]19:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting [timebox 1 minute, until 19:02] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
cody-somerville\o_19:01
asselin_o/19:01
clarkbhello19:01
fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-12-01-19.01.html19:01
dhellmanno/19:01
funginibalizer: send announcement about rescheduled gerrit upgrade maintenance19:01
fungicompleted, see above19:01
fungi#topic Specs approval [timebox 1 minute, until 19:03]19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval [timebox 1 minute, until 19:03] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
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fungiPROPOSED: Complete the reviewable release automation work (dhellmann)19:02
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/24590719:02
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pabelangero/19:02
fungi#info Voting is open on the "Complete the reviewable release automation work" spec until 19:00 UTC Thursday, December 10.19:02
ruagairI/19:02
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dhellmannfungi : I'm not sure what the process is, but if you want to discuss it in the meeting I'm here for that19:02
dhellmannotherwise comments on the spec work, too19:03
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fungidhellmann: if we weren't so short on time, yes19:03
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fungibut in this case, comments on the review please19:03
dhellmannfungi : understood19:03
fungi#topic Mid-cycle sprint for infra-cloud in Ft. Collins proposal (pleia2, jhesketh) [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:13]19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Mid-cycle sprint for infra-cloud in Ft. Collins proposal (pleia2, jhesketh) [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:13] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
fungiduring the mitaka priorities discussion in tokyo, it was pointed out that infra-cloud is one of the biggest efforts we've undertaken as a team, and that organizing a mid-cycle sprint around it would useful19:03
fungithe timing is convenient since it's just after hpcloud sunset and we've got the possibility of inheriting a fair amount of replacement hardware/upgrades from that19:03
fungipleia2 has done an awesome job (along with wendar and purp) of negotiating access for contributors to tour the facility where our west region of infra-cloud is housed, so this makes hp's fort collins site an excellent location for a sprint19:03
fungilate february, say the last week in february, would probably work out best? it doesn't conflict with lca and so far i don't see any february sprints scheduled in the wiki19:03
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints#Mitaka_sprints19:03
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fungijhesketh has offered to take point coordinating logistics for this19:03
jeblair++19:03
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anteayalast week of feb also misses ansible fest dates according to the dates mordred posted in a prior meeting19:04
jheskethYep, so probably we just need to get an indication if end of Feb in ft Collins is a good idea or if there are any strong objections19:04
pleia2anteaya: thanks for checking19:04
anteayalast week of feb works for me19:04
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anteayagood idea19:05
fungii'm strongly in favor19:05
jhesketh+119:05
jeblairalso skiing19:05
fungiheh19:05
fungittx will want to come!19:05
clarkbworks for me, does anyone know if flaying to FNL is doable or is DEN the best bet? (probably getting ahead of myself iwth that question)19:05
pleia2greghaynes, crinkle, does this work for you?19:05
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greghaynesI wouldnt be able to make feb, but I also am pretty unlikely to make any of the possible dates19:06
greghaynes(baby incoming)19:06
anteayaclarkb: Sam-I-Am would know19:06
pleia2greghaynes: ah, right19:06
fungiso just to confirm, the proposal is for fort collins, colorado, usa, the week of february 22, 201619:06
crinkleif we made it march-ish maybe greghaynes would be more able to pbx in?19:06
anteayahe flies small aircraft out of denver19:06
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crinklefeb works for me19:07
clarkbas someone that just babied I highly recommend against rytrying to do that in march19:07
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jeblairdo they have those telepresence robots at ftc?19:07
greghaynescrinkle: possible. I wouldnt plan around me - I will do my best to call in but I cant really promise anything about any dates around then19:07
anteayajeblair: not that I have seen19:07
nibalizero/19:07
crinklegreghaynes: mmk19:07
anteayajeblair: just speaker phones19:07
rcarrillocruzwfm end of Feb19:07
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fungimarch is also starting to close in on cycle end and summit prep, which is why we were thinking earlier19:08
jeblairwe'll get a little wagon to pull a speakerphone around on.19:08
fungialso, how many and which days should we be considering for this?19:08
pleia2thinking 3-5, but I don't know which in that range is best19:08
anteayaI think we have said in the past optimum time for a mid-cycle is 3 days19:08
clarkbearly week is best for me19:08
pleia2by day 5 I get very useless and tired19:09
anteayafolks get tired by end of day 319:09
jheskethI'd say min of 3 to make it worth the trip19:09
pleia2anteaya: ++19:09
pleia2jhesketh: yeah19:09
fungimonday through wednesday? with thursday as an option?19:09
rcarrillocruzerm19:09
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rcarrillocruzyeah19:09
jeblairwe should be thinking of this as dedicated single-topic workdays19:09
rcarrillocruzless than 319:09
jeblairso hopefully not as exhausting19:09
zaroo/19:09
rcarrillocruzwould be killing for non-US people19:09
clarkb(it is easier for us to get help with babies early week due to family schedules)19:09
jheskethAttendance for the whole thing is also clearly optional. So we could aim for 4 and have a light schedule19:09
pabelanger4 days works here19:09
greghaynesactually, SpamapS ^19:10
fungijeblair: very good point, we'll have to make sure we plan the topic->day mapping to make it a little less exhausiting19:10
greghaynesSpamapS: This is relevant to your interests19:10
jeblair4 with understanding that some may have to leave after 3 sounds like it might work19:10
rcarrillocruzyeah, 4 seems like a good sweet spot to me19:10
pleia2jeblair: agreed19:10
anteayamonday-wednesday with optional thursday is my vote19:10
rcarrillocruz^ ++19:10
jheskethOr even people start rolling in late/finishing early etc throughout the week19:10
jeblair(and skiing on friday)19:11
jheskethAs they tire19:11
anteayajeblair: has to be19:11
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krotschecko/19:11
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jheskethOkay so I can take an action to work with pleia2 on the logistics and announcing etc19:12
fungiwe've got one more minute budgeted for this topic. are we at consensus or do we need to flesh out details on the infra ml?19:12
fungithanks jhesketh!19:12
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anteayaI'm feeling heard on this topic19:12
jheskethAssuming pleia2 is happy to help with the office side19:12
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jeblairskiing!19:12
jeblairi'm done19:12
fungi#action jhesketh finalize omfra-cloud sprint planning details on the infra ml19:12
jheskethHeh :-)19:13
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anteayaomfra-cloud19:13
greghaynesI like omfra-cloud, makes it sound epic19:13
fungi#undo19:13
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x9736910>19:13
rcarrillocruzheh19:13
crinklei am in favor of calling it omfra-cloud19:13
anteayaloving the new words19:13
fungi#action jhesketh finalize infra-cloud sprint planning details on the infra ml19:13
jeblairoomfra loompahs?19:13
krotscheckommmmmmmmmfra cloud?19:13
* fungi is a terrible typist19:13
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jheskethAww19:13
anteayagood typos19:13
fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Gerrit 2.11 Upgrade [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:23]19:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Gerrit 2.11 Upgrade [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:23] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:13
fungizaro: are we still on track for next week? looks like there's still quite a few open changes needing reviews...19:13
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:gerrit-upgrade,n,z19:13
zaroyes, just need reviews.19:13
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zaroi cherry-picked what i thought were the most important fixes for 2.11 onto our 2.11.4 branch.19:14
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mordredo/19:15
clarkbdid we end up deciding on what fix we would use for the openid redirects? notmorgan's proxypass vhost change?19:15
anteayayes19:15
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zaroi believe notmorgan is the best solution19:15
anteayaI believe that is what is hand configured on review-dev now19:16
notmorgan\o/19:16
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zaroanteaya is correct19:16
jeblairoh cool, notmorgan you were able to do the thing you hoped you would be able to do that fixes it in apache without breaking the initial redirect?19:16
notmorganYep!19:16
fungizaro: i also noted that we've still got some pending cleanup for the "akanada" typo from the last rename maintenance. i'm worried our cruft projects database cleanup step to fix indexing will end up misinterpreting that as a missing project, so i assume we should fix it at the start of the maintenance?19:16
fungimainly want to make sure that ends up as part of the maintenance plan if so19:17
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* jeblair hands notmorgan a case of booze he filched from mordred19:17
zarofungi: i can look into that if you can provide another dump of the db.19:17
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fungizaro: get up with me after the meeting and i absolutely will--thanks!19:17
* mordred warns notmorgan it's not booze in there, but apple juice he used to make it look like he drinks less19:17
notmorganmordred: ahh. I see.19:18
krotscheck"apple juice"19:18
* krotscheck is skeptical19:18
mordredkrotscheck: ++19:18
clarkbso its mostly just reviews then?19:18
jeblairfungi: i agree we should attempt to not screw that up.  :)19:18
* clarkb makes note to do reviews19:18
anteayaclarkb: yes19:19
zaroclarkb: correct19:19
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-infra-gerritdevelopment19:19
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fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/test-gerrit-2.1119:19
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gerrit-2.11-upgrade19:20
fungi(the planning bits)19:20
fungiwe have 2 more minutes for this. anything else we need to cover or remind in preparation for next week?19:21
anteayaI'm happy19:21
fungido we need a reminder notice to the ml closer to the window?19:21
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anteayacan't hurt19:21
fungilike at the beginning of the week?19:21
notmorganfungi: reminder never hurts19:21
zaroi have nothing else.19:21
fungisince it's in the middle of a wednesday and all, there are likely those who will be taken by surprise19:22
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jeblairyeah, also, things seem _busy_ now.19:22
AJaegercan we get it into the weekly newsletter?19:22
fungiAJaeger: we should get thingee to add it to his dev digest, yes19:22
funginibalizer: do you mind following up on your maintenance notice with a reminder on mondayish too?19:22
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nibalizercan do19:23
fungi#action fungi get gerrit maintenance included in thingee's dev digest19:23
fungi#action nibalizer send follow-up gerrit maintenance reminder19:23
fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Infra-cloud [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:33]19:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Infra-cloud [timebox 10 minutes, until 19:33] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:23
crinklehi19:23
fungioof, a lot of stuff here on the agenda. crinkle, can you run through this real quick?19:23
crinkleyes19:23
mordredomfra-cloud!19:23
fungi;)19:24
crinklethere is a small cloud up that rooters can log into and poke at19:24
mordred\o/19:24
crinkleI would like help reviewing topic:infra-cloud and I need rooters to help get DNS and hiera stuff set up19:24
anteayayay19:24
crinkleI had some discussion items but I can bring those up after the meeting19:24
crinklefungi: done19:24
jeblaircan we point a nodepool at it?19:24
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fungicrinkle: wow, fast!19:24
jeblairjust to exercise it?19:24
fungii'm happy to volunteer to do the dns bits, unless someone else wants that19:24
crinklejeblair: we'd need a user and possibly sec groups and stuff but yes19:25
nibalizeroo cloud19:25
crinklealso nibalizer had a policy issue that i haven't looked at yet19:25
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clarkb++ to pointing nodepool at it19:25
mordredwould anyone mind me creating two non-admin users on it for Shrews and I to do functional shade testing against it?19:25
crinklemordred: go for it19:25
jeblaircan anyone else point nodepool at it?19:25
jeblairi'm trying to keep my plate clear for zuulv3 for a little bit19:25
nibalizerim interested in learning how to do that19:26
jeblair(doesn't have to be prod nodepool, can be a private nodepool)19:26
* mordred can help nibalizer19:26
nibalizersweet19:26
jeblaircool, i'll be backup help19:26
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pabelangerI can help if needed19:26
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asselin_I have a private nodepool as well we can use. I can also help.19:26
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mordredcrinkle: so does that mean that the stack of infra-cloud patches should land now?19:26
funginodepool people are coming out of the woodwork--glad i didn't volunteer! ;)19:27
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crinklemordred: there are a couple of blockers there19:27
mordredooh. neat. nibalizer you might get higher bandwidth from asselin_19:27
crinklebut at least getting feedback on them would be good19:27
mordred++19:27
nibalizercool19:27
clarkbI am also happy to help19:27
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clarkbits dead simple to make nodepool and point at cloud19:28
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nibalizercrinkle: you'll create users for me or I'll be doing that myself?19:28
clarkb(devstack plugin in tree should be a good example of how that looks step by step)19:28
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crinklenibalizer: you do it and if you have the same issue i'll help19:28
nibalizerkk19:28
Clinto/19:29
mordredcrinkle: where are the creds to log in to the cloud found?19:29
nibalizermordred: we must make our users19:29
fungiour ssh keys are installed on the bastion19:29
crinklemordred: the IP is 15.184.52.4 and your rooter key is on it, and the cloud credentials are in /root/adminrc19:29
mordredthanks19:29
mordred/root/adminrc was what I was looking for19:29
fungibeyond that, it's a self-service pump19:30
mordredyup19:30
* mordred can pump19:30
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fungiwhat name did we end up giving this first region?19:31
mordredRegionOne19:31
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fungiswell--just like bluebox!19:31
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* notmorgan is reminded that he needs to look over those configs.19:31
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greghayneswe put our most creative minds to work on coming up with that name19:32
rcarrillocruzheh19:32
crinkleheh that's just default, we can change it19:32
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fungiso the region rcarrillocruz and yolanda are hacking on is RegionTwo?19:32
jeblairwe'll fix that with the mirror rename... but we should also rename it i think19:32
mordredhow about hpuswest - to match what's in the hostname19:32
jeblairdidn't we say we could start with vanilla?19:32
rcarrillocruzyeah, east in HP naming19:32
crinkleya it should be hpuswest19:32
clarkbor regionb19:32
clarkb:)19:32
rcarrillocruzi'd rather call it hpuswest / hpuseast yeah19:32
mordredclarkb: _that_ would be confusing :)19:33
crinklelol19:33
rcarrillocruzindeed19:33
rcarrillocruz:-)19:33
mordredoh!19:33
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mordredthere is a service running we don't need19:33
fungi#info Our initial infra-cloud region is accessible to Infra root admins, and the next phase of acceptance testing will be exercising via nodepool and glean.19:33
* mordred learns how to remove things with the puppet ...19:33
AJaegerhpeuswest ?19:33
mordred2. there are 2 services we do not need19:33
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clarkbmordred: which services?19:33
mordredcrinkle: after the meeting, I would like to learn enough about the puppet to learn how to remove "ec2" and "computev3"19:34
fungithere's some time budgeted for open discussion at the end of the meeting too if we need19:34
* mordred knows he can delete them from the catalog in keystone19:34
fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Store Build Logs in Swift [timebox 1 minute, until 19:34]19:34
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Store Build Logs in Swift [timebox 1 minute, until 19:34] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:34
mordredbut wants to use this to learn more about our setup19:34
fungilooks like this is primarily a request from jhesketh to review a blocking change, so for the sake of time i'll link it here and skip ahead19:34
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/25471819:34
fungiwas there anything else urgent with that, jhesketh?19:34
jheskethYep no need to waste more time, just getting some eyes would be good :-)19:35
fungi#topic Priority Efforts: maniphest migration [timebox 1 minute, until 19:35]19:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: maniphest migration [timebox 1 minute, until 19:35] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:35
fungisimilarly, a few blocking reviews for this which ruagair wants to highlight19:35
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:maniphest,n,z19:35
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ruagairYes.19:35
ruagairMorning.19:35
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ruagairairporting so I'll be interrupted.19:35
fungiruagair: i didn't budget additional time for this topic, mostly just reminding people to review those19:36
notmorganmordred: ++19:36
fungihope that's okay19:36
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ruagairYes.19:36
fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Zuul v3 [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:40]19:36
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Zuul v3 [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:40] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:36
fungijeblair: you had a couple of (hopefully quick) items here19:36
jeblairi have created the feature/zuulv3 branch on zuul and i will do the same for nodepool after the builder changes land19:36
jeblairsince we're on a branch, i'd like to take the approach of rapidly sketching out the basic work on zuulv3 by focusing on the simple case and breaking everything else -- skipping tests, etc.19:36
jeblairbut not *removing* tests -- after the basics are there, we can work on getting it back into shape.  this way we can see the whole thing take shape and find any big design flaws early19:36
jeblair(basically, facebook it at first and then knuth it later)19:36
jeblairi plan to focus heavily on this and will be less available for interrupt-driven work for a while19:36
jeblairif others can pick up any new-provider work that pops up, that would be great (though there isn't much of that right now)19:36
jeblair[end of pastebomb]19:36
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mordred++19:37
fungihah on facebook-to-knuth19:37
clarkbmy only ocncern is that its really hard to review nodepool and zuul changes without tests19:37
clarkbI worry that we might not understand the general shape if we don't have something there to point out where it isn't working yet and where it is working19:37
pabelangerI actually plan to running zuulv3 locally as soon as possible. So, I don't mind providing feedback from a test POV19:38
fungimaybe a zuul-dev continuous deployment from that feature branch?19:38
jeblairclarkb: in my first change, i have one test working.19:38
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clarkbor run the tests non voting so reviewres can at least look at the results19:38
jeblairthat's enough for me to see the general approcah19:38
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clarkb(instead of skipping them entirely)19:38
jeblairclarkb: sure, they'll break and timeout19:38
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jeblair(i'm talking tests, not jobs)19:38
* SpamapS arrives late after double-booked call19:39
jeblairmy hope is by using this approach, we can avoid giant patches19:39
greghaynesThe skipping test - that is just to land things in the zuulv3 branch?19:40
fungiand lots more tests toward the end?19:40
jeblairlots of small patches that are easier to work with, even though they may not work in all cases, but then followup patches that will flesh things out more and fix more cases19:40
jeblairgreghaynes: yes, only in the v3 branch19:40
clarkbI juts know that experience has said the hurry up and test later process doesn't work that well19:40
clarkbthat doesn't necessarily mean we can't do better this time around, but I am concerned about it19:40
jeblairfungi: yes, certainly we would not merge the feature branch until it is robust19:40
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jeblairclarkb: the other approach does not work for us for large changes19:41
clarkbI think we can do small changes and have tests19:41
jeblairwe have spent 6-8 months on nodepool and zuul changes that are *much* smaller in scope than this19:41
greghaynesone other thing that I have noticed while doing the nodepool builders is that bugfixes which conflict with the patch series are *extremely* easy to accidentally regress on (you fix the merge conflict but dont copy the fix in to your copied out code)19:41
mordredyeah - I agree with jeblair19:41
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clarkbwe may not have every test working but if we add in tests specific to zuulv3 we can see they work and watch the existing tests converege to working19:41
mordredthis isn't intended to be incrementally working19:42
greghaynesso one suggestion I would have is to also make sure any zuul bugfixes have tests for that fix while we work on zuulv319:42
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clarkbjeblair: yes and the problem with nodepool has been we have had to backhaul tests in that did not exist19:42
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clarkbthe large changes have trouble because the safety net is missing19:42
mordredthe whole point of the v3 work was so that we can clean slate it19:42
jeblairclarkb: yes, i plan on focusing only on tests that immediately exercise the code being written19:42
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clarkbyup I am fine with tests failing and clean slating19:42
mordredcool19:42
clarkbI am just saying we should continue to run the tests19:42
clarkbnot skip them19:42
greghaynesah, if it is that big of a code removal then the bugfix thing is not as relavent19:43
jeblairclarkb: that does make it harder to merge19:43
clarkbjeblair: but only when the change in question breaks tests that shouldn't break?19:43
jeblairclarkb: i want to break all the tests19:44
jeblairexcept one19:44
fungii guess it's a question of how closely tied the current tests are to zuul v2 internals and design19:44
fungiv3 isn't aiming to be backward-compatible19:44
jeblairi want "test_jobs_launched" to work19:44
fungiafaik19:44
clarkbin particular with nodepool we have done a lot of work recently to add tests in and fix bugs19:44
clarkbbut because the code is already merged there is less interest in reviewing and getting that code in19:44
jeblairi don't care about anything else right now... later on, i want to make sure each test either works or is altered or removed as appropriate for the new design19:45
mordredright. I tihnk this is different than that19:45
clarkbmordred: we are saying upfront don't write tests till the end19:45
jeblairclarkb: oh no19:45
clarkbbut at that point if everything is merged why will anyone care?19:45
krotscheckjeblair: Do you need help making the web side of zuulv3 pretty?19:45
jeblairclarkb: we should write tests as we go19:45
clarkbjeblair: ok I misunderstood then I thought you were saying no tests19:45
clarkbjeblair: until some undetermined point in the future19:45
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krotschecks/need/want/19:46
clarkb(which we know doesn't work well)19:46
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jeblairclarkb: i'm saying zuul has 200 tests i don't care about right now19:46
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fungicool, contention clarified. i let the discussion run longer than budgeted to make sure that was settled19:46
jeblairfungi: ack19:47
fungi#topic Mirror efforts (krotscheck, greghaynes) [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:52]19:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Mirror efforts (krotscheck, greghaynes) [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:52] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:47
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krotscheckSpec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/252678/19:47
krotscheckFirst patch in chain: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/253236/19:47
krotscheckAll the patches: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+branch:master+topic:unified_mirror,n,z19:47
krotscheck[eopb]19:47
fungimordred: you were working with greghaynes on the last steps of the pypi mirror builder deployment?19:47
fungirather, pypi wheel builder19:47
greghaynesfungi: We had to rework our plan after some issues were discovered in the patches19:47
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mordredyah19:48
* mordred is awaiting further instructions from krotscheck and greghaynes19:48
krotscheckRight, so the whole thing is now a unified mirror effort.19:48
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greghaynesYep, step1 is now getting buy in on the spec19:48
krotscheckAll patches are dependent on the spec merging.19:48
krotscheckThe big infra-root effort starts when https://review.openstack.org/#/c/238754/ lands.19:49
krotscheckSo, go forth and review :)19:49
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/23875419:49
jeblairi am not sure we can accomodate that amount of space everywhere19:49
fungiso we're delaying the wheel mirror deployment based on needing further design work and a new spec?19:50
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jeblairthe spec looks good and i think we can still proceed19:51
krotscheckfungi: Yeah, there were a couple of things pointed out in the wheel work that made it not work so well.19:51
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fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/25267819:51
greghaynesfungi: Yes - what came up is we shouldnt be spinning up new nodes for wheel mirrors given that we have a goal of mirrors using a single host19:51
fungiwell, we were spinning up new job workers to do the on-demand wheel building19:52
fungi(per platform)19:52
clarkbjeblair: if we end up not having that space maybe we should look into some version of global load balancing19:52
fungibut i'll look over the spec19:52
clarkband use the nodes where we do have the resources as the backends19:52
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jeblairclarkb: or distributed filesystems or caching http proxies19:53
fungi#topic Infra "holiday party" knowledge transfer virtual sprint (anteaya) [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:58]19:53
*** openstack changes topic to "Infra "holiday party" knowledge transfer virtual sprint (anteaya) [timebox 5 minutes, until 19:58] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:53
jeblairclarkb: but we should probably proceed with this plan first19:53
krotscheckjeblair: Maybe ^^ makes the most sence. Basically an infra mirror CDN19:53
clarkbjeblair: agreed19:53
anteaya#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/infra-holiday-party-201519:53
anteayaso we don't get to see each other in person to celebrate the holiday19:54
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anteayaso I thought we could try something online19:54
fungi<insert preferred holiday>19:54
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anteayayou aren't obliged if this isn't your thing19:54
pleia2that's sweet :)19:54
anteayabut I thought we could try something19:54
pabelangerfungi: festivus for the rest of us19:54
fungii thought it was a neat idea19:54
clarkbI will be out all day on the 21st, have babysitter and star wars tickets19:54
anteayathe etherpad offers my thoughts19:54
clarkbno spoilers!19:54
anteayayou are welcome to add yours19:54
anteayaI suggested 3 days19:55
fungicurrently all o fthe listed days work for my schedule19:55
jeblairclarkb: darth vader is luke's father19:55
pleia2all work for me (my tickets are for the 17th)19:55
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anteayaplease vote on your preference and include reasons you will be out a certain day if you will19:55
anteayaclarkb: okay star wars counts19:55
fungii'm not expecting to disappear until teh 23rd, since i have a lot of ground to cover in a car over the subsequent 5 days19:55
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anteayathat was all for meeting time, I think the rest can take place on the etherpad19:56
anteayathank you19:56
fungiso i'll be not at all around 23-2719:56
* krotscheck will be sipping mai thai's during all those days, which is sortof like a holiday.19:56
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* krotscheck does not plan on being online :)19:56
fungikrotscheck: that's my idea of a holiday anyway19:56
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jeblairkrotscheck: that's not a normal day? :)19:56
fungijeblair: normal day is just shots19:56
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krotscheckjeblair: Normal day involves internet :D19:56
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fungipaper drink umbrellas are for special occasions19:57
* jeblair tops up19:57
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pleia2I'll be around through the holidays19:58
pleia2for some reason no one schedules conferences then19:58
fungiso the one objection was for the 21st. we can go with either the 18th or the 22nd?19:58
anteayaI thinnk it is the perfect time19:58
anteayafew tourists19:58
clarkbfungi: +1 18th19:58
pleia2I like the 18th19:58
fungii'd lean toward the 18th. we can celebrate the (successful!) gerrit upgrade19:58
anteayaeither is fine19:58
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pleia2and celebrate star wars19:58
anteayahappy to lean toward the 18th19:59
zaroi'm ok with any19:59
fungi#action anteaya plan an infra virtual sprint for knowledge transfer and holiday festivity, friday, december 18th19:59
pleia2thanks anteaya!19:59
anteaya00:00 utc on the 18th until 23:59 utc?19:59
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anteayacan do19:59
anteayawelcome19:59
fungi#topic Open discussion [timebox 30 seconds, until 20:00]19:59
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion [timebox 30 seconds, until 20:00] (Meeting topic: infra)"19:59
anteayaother activity suggestions welcome19:59
fungiheh--i promised open discussion and i delivered!19:59
Zara:)20:00
fungiand now we're out of time--thanks everyone!20:00
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fungi#endmeeting20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 20:00:13 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-12-08-19.00.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-12-08-19.00.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-12-08-19.00.log.html20:00
AJaegerwow ;)20:00
AJaegerfungi, we're speechless ;)20:00
fungittx: all yours20:00
ttxAnyone here for the TC meeting ?20:00
jheskethThanks fungi, great job!20:00
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dhellmanno/20:00
dougwiglol fungi20:00
sdagueo/20:00
mordredo/20:00
* dougwig lurks20:00
* edleafe lurks suspiciously behind a tree20:00
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ttxrussellb, mestery, annegentle, lifeless, flaper87, dtroyer, markmcclain, jeblair, jaypipes: around ?20:01
dtroyero/20:01
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flaper87o/20:01
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russellbhi20:01
devananda\o20:01
annegentleo/20:01
ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec  8 20:01:27 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
ttxHi everyone!20:01
russellbmestery sends his regrets20:01
ttxOur agenda for today:20:01
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:01
* flaper87 is connected through H+ (tethering)20:01
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flaper87expect some lag :D20:01
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ttxrussellb: good, we'll freely bitch about the Neutron stadium then20:02
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annegentleoh my20:02
ttxBut let's start with another topic20:02
ttx#topic Should DefCore explictly require running Linux as a compute capability20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Should DefCore explictly require running Linux as a compute capability (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-tc/2015-December/001085.html20:02
annegentlean even more fun topic!20:02
ttxDo we have anyone wanting to introduce the topic ?20:03
sdague#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/244782/ the critical review in question20:03
ttxhogepodge maybe20:03
flaper87markvoelker: ?20:03
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sdagueI can proxy if neither of them are here20:03
markvoelkerSure, if hogepodge isn't around....20:03
zehicleo/20:03
hogepodgeo/20:03
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markvoelker#link https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q_N93hJ-8WK4C3Ktcrex0mxv4VqoAjBzP9g6cDe0JoY/edit20:03
ttxAlso a report of what happened at the last board meeting could be helpful20:03
sdagueok, looks like we've got hogepodge & markvoelker20:03
hogepodgeand zehicle20:03
annegentlehey hogepodge zehicle markvoelker20:03
ttxsince it was discussed there (and no report was done yet)20:03
russellblast board meeting was mostly informational for board members, no real action to report IMO20:04
* markvoelker yields the floor to hogepodge since he got this on the agenda for the day20:04
* zehicle waves in an OS agnostic way20:04
russellbsome opinions expressed, but no consensus or any real new perspectives20:04
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sdagueso, given that some tc members might not be fully up on the topic, it would be good to have a summary presented20:04
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* mordred also sent an email to the tc list recently if you haven't seen it20:04
sdaguebefore we get to discussion20:04
* ttx throws interop tests at hogepodge20:04
* markmcclain sneaks in late20:04
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dhellmann#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-tc/2015-December/001088.html mordred's email20:04
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hogepodgeSome tempest tests used for defcore implicitly require linux20:05
sdagueclarification: requires Linux guests be running on the cloud20:05
hogepodgeThis has raised the question of if booting Linux should be an explicitly required capability for passing Defcore interoperability tests.20:05
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sdaguebecause they attempt to log into those guests after booting them to ensure that the OS actually is on the network, and the cloud is working20:05
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ttxI kinda like mordred's vision of it, but it goes a bit beyond the question (i.e. requires image upload)20:06
dhellmanndo those tests boot the image using a hard-coded name?20:06
mordredyah. it's a test of the inbound API presented by the cloud to the guest20:06
zehicleclarification: since those tests ARE required now, Linux guests are required until fix/flag the tests or change the rules20:06
hogepodgesdague: correct, it checks # cpus, hostname, and other capabilities20:06
russellbi'd be curious what disagreements there are with mordred's position20:06
sdaguedhellmann: no, the image_ref is specified in tempest.conf20:06
russellbcould save some time with just restating agreement there20:06
dhellmannsdague : ok20:06
mordredrussellb: ++20:06
hogepodgezehicle: a guest could possibly wrap the commands and pass20:06
clarkbI do wonder why we keep saying "linux" when really its just a small set of tools that could run on unix or cygwin right? eg maybe we should say ssh, ifconfig, etc are required and not worry about the kernel ?20:07
zehiclerussellb, people want to keep image upload and what runs in guest as different concerns20:07
ttxI'm fine supporting mordred's line20:07
mordredI mean, I knowit goes beyond the specific question, but if we're all in agreement with the one-step-past position, it will make the situation pretty clear20:07
clarkbbut it is simpler to say "linux"20:07
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dhellmannrussellb : I agree with mordred's email20:07
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sdagueright, but I think this brings up the more important heart and soul of what it means to be OpenStack, there are lots of technical ways to work around this, but the point is we don't really want to do that20:07
hogepodgeclarkb: yes, that's more accurate to say, but most linux distros give you the tools outright.20:07
mordredsdague: ++20:07
russellbsdague: ++20:07
hogepodgeclarkb: as would linux containers20:07
ttxmordred: I think it's a good medium-term goal yes20:08
flaper87well, if the test requires the cloud to be able to boot a linux guest and there isn't one, we need to be able to boot one20:08
annegentleclarkb: that's helpful, thanks20:08
zehicleclarkb, we could and ignore the larger question.  it's worth discussing the broader question too20:08
dhellmannyeah, let's not identify technicalities that let someone bypass this and just more clearly declare the intent20:08
flaper87and I think that's why mordred also mentioned uploading an image20:08
annegentledhellmann: agreed, this is about intentions20:08
sdagueright, because what is an OpenStack application going to look like in the future that you'd want to take off the shelf and apply to a cloud20:08
ttxbut I'll admit I'm not 100% clear on why we are asking this question. Is that because someone wants to call a cloud that can't bnoot a Linux VM "an OpenStack cloud" ?20:08
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mordredttx: yes20:08
hogepodgeflaper87: so a container-based openstack cloud would fail on that point20:08
russellbyes, solaris zones20:08
sdaguettx: yes, see the link to the review20:08
annegentlettx: precisely20:09
jeblairi agree with morderd and sdague on the goals and roasoning20:09
jeblairi think it's an important clarification -- it's important that a user *be able to run anything*, including linux, which happens to be the most common factor in the hardware/os matrix20:09
sdagueit's in there in pretty specific detail20:09
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markvoelkerYEah, one of the points that's been brought up is that we already have a way to identify required capabilities for OpenStack Powered(TM) clouds.  So if we think "can boot linux" should be a required capability, perhaps we should just use them.20:09
ttxmordred, sdague I read it -- was checking that was the only reason why the question was asked20:09
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dhellmannjeblair : I would be happy to support going further, if we had tests for other operating systems20:09
mordredmarkvoelker: I'd love that20:09
flaper87hogepodge: can a linux container be uploaded ? I think that's good as well20:09
markvoelkerWhich means we score that capability against the 12 Criteria, etc.20:09
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russellbi think "can boot linux" is the wrong thing to say.  it's "can provide full machine virt"20:09
jeblairrussellb: ya20:10
mordredyah20:10
hogepodgeflaper87: a container cloud can't boot cirros, though. It's a distinction20:10
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mordred"can boot linux" is an easy way to _verify_ full machine virt20:10
clarkbrussellb: that certainly clears up any confusion I might have had20:10
sdaguerussellb: well, maybe, it's really "can show up with own arbitrary image"20:10
markvoelkerrussellb: sure, both have brought up20:10
mordredtht does not present an undue burden20:10
mordredbut it is a detail20:10
sdaguewhich baremetal also supports20:10
annegentlerussellb: that's a good clarification20:10
annegentlewe also need to realize that defcore is a lookback20:10
mordredsdague: ++20:10
ttxOK, I think the TC's opinion is requested and we seem to be OK holding the line where mordred eloquently set it.20:10
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russellbyep, baremetal is fine with me too20:10
russellbttx: ++20:10
markvoelkerFWIW, baremetal will fail other tests anyway IIRC20:10
mordred++20:11
ttxI'm not sure how to best formalize that20:11
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russellbTC resolution?20:11
flaper87ttx: ++20:11
jeblairrussellb: ++20:11
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russellbwitha a formal vote20:11
mordredttx: there was a suggestion on the list for a resolution20:11
dhellmannrussellb : ++20:11
flaper87russellb: ++20:11
ttxmarkvoelker, hogepodge: would you require a TC resolution ?20:11
markmcclain++20:11
jeblairlet's write it up and vote20:11
hogepodgethere are capabilities we check for that bare metal will fail.20:11
zehiclettx, technical community also needs to be aware of issue from a fix test perspective too.  Or add tests to make intent clear20:11
zehicleDefCore is limited to what exists as tests20:11
russellbI don't like saying "fix test"20:11
markvoelkerIMHO not necessary since DefCore is Board body, but helpful.20:11
dhellmannhogepodge : there's no need to conflate VM and baremetal. Separate tests, separate things, separate capabilities.20:11
russellbbecause that implies it's broken :)20:11
persiaJust as a point of curiosity, would taking this position mean that clouds that currently support non-x86 architectures would no longer meet the test, or is that just an interim position from mordred?20:12
mordredI think we can write a resolution that captures this20:12
ttxzehicle: right -- this originally comes from a a test, but what we affirm here is that that was actually a good thing20:12
russellbright, i don't think TC resolution is required, but a very helpful way of formally adopting a position communicated in important cases like this20:12
mordredpersia: iterim20:12
hogepodgedhellmann: it's making a statement that OpenStack Powered is VM only, which is important. There are some opinions that OpenStack should be about compute in general. Just want to make sure that point is raised.20:12
persiaAh, so existing multiarchitecture clouds may comtinue to claim to be compliant?20:12
ttxI think that will let us come up with clear wording that represents our position20:12
jeblairyes, if we want to say "the tc feels this way" we should vote on a resolution20:12
ttx(a resolution)20:12
mordredpersia: if they can boot the linux needed for the test, sure20:12
ttxmordred: feeling ready to draft it ?20:12
sdaguehogepodge: I think the spirit is the user can show up with their own image and get that to work, and being able to run Linux, as it is a free and open OS, is very reasonable validation of that20:12
mordredjeblair: ++20:12
dhellmannpersia : yes, the point isn't that all of your cloud supports this feature, it's that some part of your cloud supports it20:12
markvoelkerSo, FYI it's currently too late to add stuff to the Guideline that goes up for a vote in January.  Next one will go up for a vote in July, so if folks want to take some time to craft their opinions there is some time20:12
mordredttx: yeah. I'll write it20:13
mordredttx: I can just clean up the email20:13
zehiclettx, I don't think the current test is a good way to ensure the objectives being stated here.  it's really a side effect.20:13
russellbmordred: thanks!20:13
ttxWe can iterate on it on the review all week20:13
markvoelkerThe more urgent thing is just to decide whether we grant the flag request for this Guideline.20:13
persiaI know of no multiarchitecture clouds that do not have x86 flavours, making that easy.20:13
ttxand vote on it last week20:13
sdaguepersia: yes, an OpenStack can do more things20:13
zehicleDefCore will do better with explicit tests so we can create and score capabilities20:13
flaper87damnit, too much lag here. I can help with the resolution20:13
mordredmarkvoelker: I would request that you do not20:13
sdaguebut there is some base commonality20:13
russellbtests can be improved, but i think avoiding a step backward here is important20:13
dhellmannrussellb : ++20:13
mordredmarkvoelker: there is nothing broken in the test, nor any intent on the part of the tech community to alter it20:13
russellbdefcore is admittedly already such a low bar, let's not lower it more20:13
flaper87oh, mmh, mordred took it already20:13
dhellmannzehicle : one of those scoring criteria is also "future technical direction", which we're trying to give you20:14
zehicledhellmann, that's true.20:14
mordredmarkvoelker: admitting the flag would imply that the thing being flagged is a potential issue, and it's not a door that is likely to change in the direction the flag is requesting any time in the forseeable future20:14
sdaguemarkvoelker: I believe there is pretty clear voice on that flag requests should not be approved20:14
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zehiclewe discussed having "runs Linux" "runs Windows" and "runs Solaris" capabilities.  that would be VERY explicit20:14
markvoelkerAlso FWIW, one thing that came out of the Board meeting is that there are some very different opinions on what "interoperability" means.  Some seem to think it should stop at the API, others expect full workload portability, etc.20:14
ttxzehicle: agreed. I think what was a side-effect needs to have its own clear capabilities/tests20:14
markvoelkerMay not change anyone's minds, but worth considering: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/UnofficialBoardNotes-Dec3-201520:14
ttxif we are to follow that road20:14
sdaguemarkvoelker: we can make that part of the TC resolution if you don't think it's clear enough with the 3 TC -1s on the review20:15
russellb"stop at the API" is meaningless to me20:15
russellbif you can't say anything about expected input and output, what the heck does that mean20:15
sdaguerussellb: ++20:15
russellbanyway ..20:15
mordredmarkvoelker: anybody who thinks it stops at the API20:15
dhellmannrussellb : ++20:15
mordredmarkvoelker: has never run antyhing on a cloud20:15
dhellmanncertainly not 2 clouds20:15
mordredmarkvoelker: and CERTAINLY has not run anything on multiple clouds20:15
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russellbmordred: ++20:15
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sdaguethat means the nova unit tests could be an OpenStack (tm)20:15
* zehicle recalls that API vs Implementation has always been a challenge for DefCore discussions [e.g. designated sections]20:15
mordredzehicle: yup20:15
flaper87russellb: ++20:15
hogepodgemordred: we can flag in waiting for test or functionality improvements, and we have done that in the past.  In this case the flag wouldn't eliminate a capability, but defer testing until the suite is "better". I'm not advocating any position, just trying to clarify the process.20:15
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sdaguehogepodge: right, and I think the point is we explicitly don't want this20:16
mordredhogepodgetotally. but I think the entirety of the TC is saying "the test is not broken and is by design"20:16
dhellmannhogepodge : I would not expect this test to be changed at all.20:16
mordredhogepodge: so, we _could_ do that20:16
mfisher_orahogepodge: that's like exactly why I submitted the patch...20:16
mordredbut the test is spot on20:16
russellb+120:16
ttxI don't see the point in disabling a test that ends up having the side-effect of testing something we also want20:16
mfisher_oraThe test is fine, I just want it to not use hard coded commands20:16
annegentlettx: agreed20:17
mordredmfisher_ora: but we're saying that those commands are not going to change20:17
hogepodgeI guess my position is that "boot linux" needs to have a test so we can test for it as a capability. That is my preference, and I would be happy to work with qa to write that test.20:17
sdaguemfisher_ora: right, and we disagree with you20:17
ttxI agree with zehicle it should end up having its own test if that's something we want20:17
dhellmannhogepodge : ++20:17
mordredmfisher_ora: because upstream cannot test changed commands20:17
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ttxrather than just being another test sideeffect20:17
mordredand we do not accept changes we cannot test20:17
mfisher_orasdague, mordred: yep, we get that now20:17
markvoelkerttx: I'm fine with tests depending on things that are also required, the bone here is that "boot linux as a full-virt guest" currently isn't.  So a useful conversation has ensued. =)20:17
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zehiclettx, that is not a consensus position.  some see that it is a side effect as reason enough to kill it20:17
russellbit's consensus here :)20:18
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mordredmfisher_ora: thank you, by the way, for highlighting the issue and diving in to this with us20:18
russellbwhich is what we're trying to arrive at20:18
russellbTC opinion to communicate back20:18
dhellmannzehicle : as I said before, we are trying to clarify the technical direction as intended by the contributors. Are you getting that feedback from contributors?20:18
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zehiclerussellb, clearly.  wanted to speak for other points of view I've heard20:18
mfisher_oramordred: uh I'd say no problem, but obviously I'm a little disappointed at the moment :)20:18
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mordredmfisher_ora: sure - totally understand :)20:18
zehicledhellmann, DefCore has a very broad audience.20:18
russellbmordred: we might want to address some of these common other opinions in the resolution20:18
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mordredrussellb: happy to20:19
dhellmannzehicle : I think maybe you give too much weight to some of them.20:19
russellbmordred: maybe it's covered well enough in your mail, i'll think it over again and comment on resolution if i think of something20:19
dhellmannzehicle : but that's a discussion for another day, I think20:19
mordredrussellb: thanks!20:19
zehicledhellmann, my goal is to hear that from everyone.  then I know I got it right20:19
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sdaguezehicle: the right answer isn't the median one20:19
dhellmannsdague : ++20:19
ttxOK, I think we can move on. mordred will draft a resolution to formalize the TC's position on that question20:20
ttxwe'll hopefully iterate on it fast enough to be able to vote it next week20:20
zehiclesdague, totally agree!  point is to hear and understand everyone.20:20
lifelessttx: o/20:20
hogepodgeThanks for your time and attention everyone. It's great to see the community input to defcore.20:20
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lifelessttx: had some ECHILD at top of the hour, sorry20:20
flaper87hogepodge: ++20:20
mordredzehicle: ++20:20
ttxlifeless: That happens20:20
ttxlifeless: That happens20:20
* zehicle thanks TC for being direct and vocal. it helps discussion to have a position taken20:20
ttxIt's good that we seem to have consensus on a position too20:21
ttxcould have turned out a lot less clear20:21
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mordredzehicle: it's not every day we can be this clear :)20:21
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ttxAlright, moving on to the other topics20:21
pbredenb1yes, quite clear. thank you.20:22
annegentleI think cloud providers want to serve customers, and customers benefit from a clear understanding.20:22
* dhellmann puts a big red circle around today on the calendar20:22
flaper87mordred: lol, unfortunately, that's true :D20:22
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ttxzehicle: hogepodge markvoelker: thx20:22
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ttx#topic Open discussion20:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:22
ttxWe have a number of topics to cover in Open discussion20:22
ttx* Standardizes name of freezer service to match conventions20:22
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ttxThis review (not needing formal vote) seems stuck:20:22
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/24978820:22
ttxIf we could come to an agreement on the color of that bikeshed and be done with it...20:22
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mordredI think we should store shovels in the shed20:23
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annegentleplease :)20:23
mordredred shovels20:23
dhellmannI don't know what a "Recover service" is but if we get that changed to "Recovery" I think it looks fine20:23
annegentledhellmann: ok20:23
russellbi'd like to recover some service20:23
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ttxYeah I agree Recover doesn't make sense20:23
annegentleflaper87: did you find where freezer does disaster recovery?20:23
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annegentleflaper87: that was the other concern to address20:23
dhellmannannegentle : that's what they said they're building20:23
jeblair(if you change it to recovery, do you need to change it to restoration?)20:23
dhellmannannegentle : line 561 of the same file20:24
annegentledhellmann: but. but... I couldn't find proof of it so do we publish that in the service name?20:24
flaper87annegentle: not in their code, but I did ping folks from the freezer team and asked them to chime in.20:24
annegentledhellmann: so...20:24
flaper87that didn't happen, unfortunately20:24
dhellmannannegentle : I don't think we've asked that question of other projects?20:24
flaper87I think the mission statement has it, though20:24
annegentleflaper87: ah ok. well thanks for following up20:24
ttxBackup, restore and recovery might not be 3 verbs, they are three operations of Freezer20:24
ttxSo I'm fine with that20:24
dhellmann"prove you are building the thing you claim but haven't yet finished"?20:24
sdagueyeh20:25
annegentledhellmann: heh, well. ok. names without claims, we're ok with?20:25
dhellmannyeah, "backup and restore" is common parlance, if not good grammar20:25
ttxRestoration and Recover are not backupland concepts20:25
lifeless+1 to mordred's mail20:25
annegentleor claims in names20:25
dhellmannannegentle : trust?20:25
flaper87yup, that's in their mission statement20:25
annegentledhellmann: sure, seems fair to extend20:25
annegentleso, I'll change to Disaster Recovery and gtg?20:26
ttxannegentle: how strongly do you feel on verb consistency ?20:26
ttxannegentle: +120:26
dhellmannannegentle : ++20:26
annegentlettx: I like it. A lot. But I'm bad at catching it early enough :)20:26
flaper87annegentle: ++20:26
annegentlettx: and recovery/restore is particularly badly patterned in the industry20:26
ttxannegentle: probably why I don't care about that industry and use tar20:26
annegentlehee20:26
ttxAlright sounds like we have a way forward20:27
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ttx#agreed annegentle to change "Recover" to "Disaster Recovery"20:27
annegentlecheck!20:27
jeblairwhew.  i guess they can't always be as easy as the defcore topic can they?20:27
sdaguefreezer is really about recovering the cloud right?20:28
sdagueit's not tenant backup/restore20:28
flaper87hahahah20:28
dhellmannjeblair : it depends on the size of the shed, right?20:28
ttxcovering teh last toipic first since the second one will likely take us until the top of the hour20:28
ttx* N/O naming status20:28
sdaguejust to make sure that distinction is out there20:28
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ttxWe are now getting very late for the N naming, where voting was supposed to start 2015-11-3020:28
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ttxmordred: need help with this one ?20:28
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mordredI will try to get to this today20:29
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ttxkewl. I don't care taht much about O20:29
mordredsorry - I'm running mildly behind20:29
mordredwell20:29
lifelessruhroh, ECHILD again.20:29
mordredI'm going to do them both at the same time20:29
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ttxsure, but if that is the main reason why it's late... better do N first20:29
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anteayacan we start N even if O is blocked for any reason?20:29
flaper87that was the plan, AFAIR20:29
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mordredttx: it's not. literally splitting a file into 20 smaller files and then propping my feet up to click "submit" 40 times is what I'm waiting on20:30
mordredneither are blocked by anything20:30
mordredI just suck20:30
ttx#agreed mordred will try to get to start the N/O voting today20:30
* dhellmann hands mordred an intern20:30
ttxthat's all I wanted to hear.20:30
annegentlego go mordred20:30
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dougwigmordred: don't you have minions for that?20:30
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ttx:)20:30
mordreddougwig: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA20:30
ttx* The neutron stadium discussion20:31
russellbcan i give some background and context on this one?20:31
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/080865.html20:31
flaper87russellb: please20:31
russellbThis started when Neutron split its drivers out into other git repos.  I suggested those repos be adopted as officially part of Neutron.20:31
ttxWanted to discuss this a bit -- I was a bit alarmed to hear the neutron PTL say he can't vouch for anything in the neutron "stadium"20:31
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russellbIt has since grown to include other types of repos, so it's hard to generalize now.  I attempted to start breaking down the different types here:  http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-December/080876.html20:31
flaper87I read through the thredad but I wouldn't mind some background20:31
russellbThe key point is that the Neutron PTL feels that the PTL/delegates can't appropriately track all of these efforts.  How to deal with that is the question at hand.   There are a few different possibilities in my view.20:31
russellbthat's the tl;dr20:32
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russellbmy opinion varies depending on which type of thing we're talking about20:32
annegentlerussellb: is the outcome to avoid PTL overwhelms or to better manage expectations for stadium inclusion?20:32
ttxCurrently we have governance reviews stuck because the PTL defers to others accepting new things into it (like mentioned on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/230699/)20:32
sdagueso I would agree the stadium is pretty big at this point, it would be nice to have more things really stand on their own20:32
ttxWe let project teams freely add repositories on the basis that the project team (and its PTL) are responsible for anything in them20:32
russellbthere are some easy ones that should probably be independent20:32
russellbthe least obvious is a basic neutron driver20:33
ttxIt doesn't seem to be the case in the neutron stadium...20:33
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anteayaI wish armax were here20:33
russellbbut right, if neutron says "we can't keep track" then we can split it all up, it honestly doesn't matter to me much20:33
dhellmannrussellb : are you saying the driver should or should not be independent?20:33
dougwignote that armax is unavailable right now, and he'd like to be part of this discussion/decision.20:33
sdaguehowever a lot of the advanced services, which would be really good to stand on their own, still directly import neutron code, which makes that hard20:33
russellbdhellmann: i'm saying it should not, it's a weird thing to set20:33
annegentlerussellb: the categories are helpful20:33
russellbsdague: right.20:33
dhellmannrussellb : ok, that's what I thought, I agree with that I think20:33
ttxdougwig: I don't expect a decision to be made, mostly get a temperature reading from the TC on that question20:34
dougwigsdague: right, so it can't happen immediately.20:34
flaper87russellb: I agree a driver should not be independant20:34
ttxit's "open discussion" time after all20:34
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markmcclainsdague: there is work to make the shared neutron bits a true library20:34
annegentledougwig: yeah this is for us to ensure we have understanding also20:34
dougwigno worries, just wanted to mention it.  :)20:34
annegentledougwig: oh absolutely :)20:34
sdaguemarkmcclain: right, it just seems that should be the #1 priority at the moment, if it would help remove overload20:34
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dougwigmarkmcclain: ironically, via a stadium repo.  :)20:35
annegentlemarkmcclain: would the categories change much if a shared library came to be?20:35
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anteayapart of the issue is that neutron has a workflow it sets out for the stadium and then should a member not follow that workflow it creates a lot more work20:35
dhellmanndougwig : I would expect that library to stay a stadium repo, no?20:35
flaper87sdague: not sure about it being #1 prio but yeah, it'd be good for the project20:35
anteayanot only for neutron20:35
dougwigdhellmann: yes.20:35
russellbeven making advanced services use a shared lib doesn't change the fact that they're tightly coupled to neutron20:35
sdagueI guess I felt the split kind of happened backwards, and that more git repos without clear interfaces just creates more work for everyone20:35
russellbthey run in the neutron-server process20:35
dhellmannsdague : ++20:35
sdaguerussellb: right, that seems problematic20:35
dougwigrussellb: well, that part is more easily broken than you'd think, since they can export their own endpoint, once the co-dependency is broken.20:36
flaper87I think russellb's type clasification on that thread is great20:36
sdaguecould the be really, truely, stand alone processes?20:36
dougwigsdague: lbaas already is, via octavia.  the plan is for neutron-lbaas in neutron-server to become a passthrough.20:36
dhellmanndougwig : is it likely that this problem is going to get worse (by adding more repos) before it gets better (by finishing that library work)?20:36
sdaguedougwig: so why not a separate sc entry, why even a pass through?20:36
dhellmannsdague : backwards compat20:37
dhellmann?20:37
dougwigsdague: both, for backwards compatibility, IMO.20:37
russellbi don't think the library helps here20:37
sdaguedougwig: ok, like the volumes proxy in nova, I can live with that20:37
annegentledougwig: wait, what does "export their own endpoint" mean?20:37
dhellmannrussellb : oh, I thought that would be required for splitting the teams apart, but you think not?20:37
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dougwigdhellmann: i think most of the repo explosion was due to the vendor decomp, and that wave has likely crested. it'll be a trickle from here, until the lib is more mature.20:37
sdaguerussellb: yeh, it very well may not20:37
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dougwigannegentle: lbaas has a service endpoint in keystone.20:37
dougwige.g.20:37
dhellmannannegentle : new rest services20:37
russellbdhellmann: depends on what we're talking about.  part of the library is for each of the plugin interfaces20:38
sdagueI think the more important thing is to figure out how more things really stand on their own, don't run in the neutron processes, only use published neutron REST API to communicate with the rest of neutron20:38
annegentledhellmann: but you can't have lbaas without neutron? Or is that where the shared library bit comes in?20:38
ttxPersonally I'd like to see the neutron project team deliverables reduced to what the neutron team can handle, and teh rest split out into their own project teams (since that's what they actually are)20:38
sdaguethat gives the loose coupling to be independent20:38
russellbsdague: yes.20:38
russellbsdague: and there's only 1 example, maybe 2, of that.20:38
dtroyerttx: ++20:38
dhellmannannegentle : that's where the shared lib comes in. lbass will need neutron, but neutron won't "contain" lbaas20:38
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annegentledhellmann: got it.20:38
ttxThe current situation feels like a bit of a bypass of our "are you OpenStack" review20:38
dougwigsdague: the lib is for stable, versioned internal interfaces, since we've kicked all the plugins out of core.20:39
dhellmannttx: ++20:39
ttxand now we pay that price20:39
anteayattx: +20:39
russellbttx: for which components specifically?20:39
dougwiglbaas needs neutron ports, but doesn't need to import neutron, IMO.20:39
dhellmannyeah, it's also muddying up the release stuff, as anteaya pointed out, when some of the teams don't follow processes20:39
russellbthat is probably true for some things, but i don't think that's true for all.20:39
sdaguedougwig: right, that seems like a more durable architecture20:39
russellbi think  kuryr is the best example of something that should be independent20:39
lifelessttx: sorry, afk for ~25m I suspect20:39
russellbbut a little neutron plugin?  meh.20:39
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anteayaperhaps a committee could be struck to work with neutron leadership to come up with a plan and details?20:40
flaper87I think things consuming neutron should be (kuryr, for example)20:40
flaper87should be independent*20:40
russellbeveryone with opinions should really raise them on the thread btw20:40
russellbto include armax20:40
sdagueI guess the question is, is the neutron team asking for help from beyond the team boundaries here?20:40
dhellmannrussellb : drivers are ok, as long as the neutron team can actually manage the release processes for them. We've slowed down adding libs to oslo in part because as the number grew we started hitting issues tracking them all20:40
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russellbsdague: not formally, but it impacts the TC since it's blocking repo reviews, at least20:40
ttxrussellb: I'm just saying that if the teams producing some of them are so separate the Neutron PTL doesn't want to hear about them, I think those should be dropped from governance and formally apply to become OpenStack project teams20:40
sdagueit sounded like there was some overwhelming of folks, but things weren't super clear to me20:40
anteayasdague: I didnt' get the sense they were20:41
dougwigjust IMO, but i think we need to strike a balance between what should be separate/using strict interfaces, and still moving forward, since the former isn't ready yet.20:41
russellbttx: yep, that's fine20:41
dougwigsdague: i think armax was raising the point to spark a discussion.20:41
russellbi'm actually OK with that at this point, it's not worth arguing over20:41
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clarkbas a user I like it when things that can run on instead of in cloud do so20:41
russellbi just think about it from a precedence POV too20:41
sdaguettx: yeh, I agree. Either the neutron team vouches for stuff, or those things aren't neutron, and shouldn't be included under it in governance20:41
clarkbthen I am not stuck to the features the cloud deploys20:42
russellbdo we want a new top level project for every driver of every project?20:42
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dhellmanndougwig : is there a plan to get things to a technical point to let neutron get past this governance issue?20:42
russellbif not?  what's our guidance?20:42
dhellmannrussellb : I don't think anyone is suggesting that20:42
russellbdhellmann: the original proposal suggested that20:42
ttxI think some groups will be very successful as independent teams. Some others will stay in neutron and be handled by the neutron team. And some others may struggle to adopt enough of the OpenStack Way to become recognized as their own project team20:42
dhellmannrussellb : ok, anyone here20:42
russellbsure20:42
ttxbut at least that's more in line with how we handle everything20:42
sdaguewell maybe the question is, what does the neutron core team feel comfortable vouching for, and make the governance list that. And it might open up a driver question.20:43
russellbttx: yep, that's fine20:43
dhellmannrussellb : the team needs to manage its growth so that it is only trying to take on work it can handle, and adding everything networking related to one team may not line up with that20:43
dougwigdhellmann: no, i think that's what armax is hoping to accomplish. the neutron-lib plan to break the co-dependency hell is targeted at mitaka/N, at which point some of this will happen organically. but i think he wants something more concrete.20:43
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dhellmanndougwig : ok, I think that's a mistake20:43
ttxrussellb: With the caveat that sdague mentioned about interfaces not really being clean yet20:43
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russellbright, none of them are, really20:43
russellbit's fun20:43
dougwigdhellmann: want a concrete plan is a mistake?  parse failure.20:44
sdagueas someone whose spent a lot of time decoupling things in OpenStack.... it does not ever happen organically20:44
dhellmanndougwig : we have previously said that projects run by different teams talk to each other over rest interfaces as a way of clearly delineating boundaries20:44
dougwigtrue, true.20:44
annegentlesdague: not even with compost20:44
sdagueit happens with a machette and a blow torch, and lots of sweat20:44
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dhellmanndougwig : splitting all repos to their own projects, but maybe I misunderstood you20:44
ttxsdague: I'd rather have the neutron team focus on cleaning those interfaces rather than handling everything in the neutron stadium though20:44
sdaguettx: sure20:45
dougwigdhellmann: agree, cutting everything loose is likely too far.20:45
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ttxAt least that gives us a way out of the maze20:45
annegentlettx: I'm with you on that, and it lets services give better thought to API design of their own service20:45
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ttxdougwig: I wouldn't say "everything". Just the things where the teams are so disjoint you don't feel confident about them20:46
dougwigdhellmann: the rest boundary is interesting.  so, something that creates a neutron api extension, but is otherwise 100% separate, should never be a separate openstack project?  even if it's neutron-related, but neutron isn't interested in managing it?  they must have their own service endpoint?20:46
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ttxI bet there are a few things in that list of deliverables that have a lot of overlap with the "core" neutron team20:46
russellbif the neutron team doesn't like the API extension, i dont' think it should be in openstack at all20:46
russellbbuilding some consensus around common APIs is kind of the point :)20:47
dhellmanndougwig : it's difficult to set a hard rule, but I would lean toward finding ways to add more independent services to the networking feature space and stop cramming everything into one service20:47
dhellmannalso, what russellb said about extensions: +120:47
russellb"cramming everything into one service" is often required, because it all has to interact with the same network plumbing20:47
sdaguerussellb: agreed, I don't think anything should be extending the neutron API that isn't controlled by the neutron core team.20:47
dougwignot arguing. the way we do apis is just a lot of duplication and overhead, today.20:47
annegentledougwig: extensions are awful for end user experience so I wouldn't advocate for those specifically but the neutron core API needs to be understandable/reviewable/consumable20:47
russellbit's complicated.20:47
markmcclainrest is hard for a few things... there also has to be a southbound code level defined interface otherwise we'll have a pyramid of rest for drivers for particular technologies20:48
annegentlerussellb: "it depends"20:48
ttxrussellb: you seem to have a pretty good handle on that issue, so maybe it's best to let you calmly come up with solutions there ?20:48
russellbttx: i have my opinions, at least20:48
dhellmannrussellb : sure, if they're tightly coupled they should be the same service. That doesn't sound like an extension, though.20:48
russellbi think it's on the neutron group in general to keep working through it20:48
dhellmannrussellb : ++20:48
russellbgood for TC members to be aware of it though, and please weigh in if you'd like20:48
mordred++20:48
annegentlerussellb: categories are a great way for them to discuss amongst themselves for starters20:48
sdaguerussellb: well, except we do hand off between services to get working network for a guest already with nova / neutron via rest things20:49
sdagueit's harder, but it's doable20:49
ttxI'm not strongly on one specific solution anyway, I just don't think we can continue in the current situation20:49
russellbsdague: ah, right, the VIF plugging bit20:49
russellbthe lines.  they are blurry.20:49
dougwigsdague: isn't the vif plugging library meant to simplify that, though?20:49
sdaguerussellb: and the network proxy20:49
russellbttx: agreed20:49
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russellbsdague: in the nova api?  heh yeah20:49
dhellmannttx: agreed. I'm worried about getting all of those things released if the neutron ptl/release liaison feel they can't manage them all20:49
sdaguedougwig: there will still be per hypervisor code in nova for it as well20:50
dougwigif i'm hearing one thing today, it's that defining a hard boundary for a separate project is likely never going to substitute for a judgement call.20:50
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ttx#agreed let russellb drive and propose solutions to move away from the current deadlock20:50
dhellmannttx: I don't think we got milestones for most of them, for example20:50
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annegentlethanks russellb, it's good stuff20:50
* russellb will start by giving armax another hug20:50
dougwigdhellmann: most are marked release independent, and ping mestery when they want something put up, i think.20:51
ttxdhellmann: there is also the whole "I won't be ready at release time" thing making them release:independent20:51
sdaguedougwig: right, but that mostly seems like a punt, because how does a consumer compose a working set of these things20:51
dhellmanndougwig : ok. I didn't see any on http://docs.openstack.org/releases/releases/mitaka.html so I don't know if they were released quietly or not at all20:51
dhellmannttx: true20:51
ttxrussellb: agreed. I actually am very thankful of armax for putting that dead fish on the table for everyone to see20:51
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sdaguettx: agreed, very thankful of armax kicking off this thread20:52
russellbarmax: when you read this backlog, *hug*20:52
dhellmannthere are a few on http://docs.openstack.org/releases/independent.html20:52
dougwigsdague: fair point. many are vendor code, further muddying it pu.20:52
ttxotherwise the issue would have gone underground for more time20:52
dougwig /pu/up/20:52
sdaguedougwig: right, so that all seems like remove from neutron stadium, and make no guaruntees about it20:52
sdaguebecause that seems to be the actual state of things anyway20:53
dougwignote that i'm not arguing with y'all. the stadium does feel like it's gotten "too big" for its intended purpose to me, too. i just don't know what the end result should look like, or its timeline.20:53
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ttxsdague: yeah, it's about setting expectations more clearly. Currently we assume support due to being under the neutron project team, but that support is not really there20:53
dhellmanndougwig : understood20:53
russellbbar is/was quite low20:53
ttxConsider the floor open for other open discussion topics20:54
ttxAnything else, anyone ?20:54
ttx(we can continue on the neutron thing in parallel)20:54
annegentledougwig: oh yes, I don't see this as argumentative at all, quite constructive20:54
russellbraising bar and evaluating against it adds up to a lot of work20:54
russellbthat nobody is thrilled about doing20:54
russellbthat's part of the deadlock20:54
dougwigttx: it's neutron, the bikeshedding can never end on neutron. or else openstack might cease to exist.20:54
dhellmannheh20:55
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markmcclainhaha20:55
ttxquantum physics after all20:55
mordreddougwig: I want to store shovels in neutron. red shovels20:55
* fungi groans at ttx20:55
russellbfwiw, i dont' think this is bikeshedding at all.20:56
russellbit's an important discussion about how openstack teams are operating in reality20:56
annegentleyeah this is team definition stuff20:57
dhellmannvery true20:57
russellband how best to organize and reflect it20:57
annegentlestorming and norming!20:57
dhellmannthis is exactly why the oslo team asked the os-win folks to start their own project team20:57
annegentledhellmann: ah good parallel I might not have seen20:57
ttxnot the same team, then not the same team.20:58
dougwigright now, it's a TC within a TC.20:58
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russellbdougwig: huh?20:58
dougwigarmax is nipping it before it can form it's own mini-bureacracy.20:58
dougwigthe stadium is its own governance model.20:59
russellbit's not so different than other projects with groups working on new APIs or new drivers ...20:59
russellbjust that it's separate repos20:59
ttxEvery time we tried to fit two separate project teams into a single one it failed. We created the big tent to escape that issue and remove the friction in creating new teams20:59
russellbthing is, once the separate repos exist, clearly not everyone looks at all of them20:59
russellbso ... now what20:59
ttxOh well, time is up21:00
annegentlerussellb: and who's responsible/accountable, etc.21:00
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ttxThanks everyone, was a good one21:00
russellbkthxbai21:00
ttx#endmeeting21:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: storyboard)"21:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec  8 21:00:26 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:00
annegentlethanks all!21:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-12-08-20.01.html21:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-12-08-20.01.txt21:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-12-08-20.01.log.html21:00
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dougwigttx: stadium slightly predates the passage of the tent, which i think might've influenced its evolution. it was trying to bypass some governance warts.21:01
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ttxdougwig: totally. It's a pre-tent workaround since we were stuck and neutron needed a solution21:02
ttxnow we are paying back that debt21:02
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ttxwhich is why I'm very pragmatic about it. It's not anyone's fault. It's just something we need to clean up21:03
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dougwigttx: agree21:03
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russellbdougwig: i reject that view as applied to all repos :)21:07
dougwigrussellb: also fair.  :)21:07
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