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| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 5 08:00:22 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:00 |
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| anteaya | hello | 08:00 |
| lennyb_ | anteaya: hi | 08:01 |
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| anteaya | hey lennyb_ | 08:01 |
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| anteaya | how are you today? | 08:01 |
| lennyb_ | anteaya: thanks, how are you? | 08:01 |
| anteaya | good thanks | 08:02 |
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| anteaya | do you have anything you want to discuss today? | 08:02 |
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| lennyb_ | not really. | 08:02 |
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| anteaya | I don't have anything myself | 08:02 |
| anteaya | okay thanks for being here | 08:02 |
| lennyb_ | u tii | 08:02 |
| lennyb_ | you roo | 08:02 |
| anteaya | we will see if anyone else shows up | 08:03 |
| anteaya | I don't understand your last two statements | 08:03 |
| lennyb_ | thank you too :) | 08:03 |
| anteaya | oh okay thank you | 08:03 |
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| anteaya | I do see anyone else showing up for this meeting so far | 08:08 |
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| anteaya | any objection to me closing the meeting? | 08:08 |
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| lennyb_ | no, see you next week | 08:09 |
| anteaya | thanks lennyb_ | 08:09 |
| anteaya | have a good day | 08:09 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 08:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 08:09 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 5 08:09:38 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:09 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-01-05-08.00.html | 08:09 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-01-05-08.00.txt | 08:09 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-01-05-08.00.log.html | 08:09 |
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| alex_xu | #startmeeting nova api | 12:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 5 12:00:03 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is alex_xu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 12:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 12:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_api' | 12:00 |
| alex_xu | Who is here in new year? | 12:00 |
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| jichen | :) | 12:00 |
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| cdent | o/ | 12:01 |
| alex_xu | jichen: happy new year :) | 12:01 |
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| jichen | alex_xu: you too ~ | 12:01 |
| alex_xu | cdent: happy new year too :) | 12:01 |
| cdent | thanks, happy new year everybody | 12:01 |
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| alex_xu | I know gmann and Ken'ichi won't be here today | 12:01 |
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| * bauzas prepares to lurk actively | 12:02 | |
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| alex_xu | ok, let's run the meeting, and quickly go through the thing as today just few peoples here | 12:02 |
| alex_xu | #topic actions from last meeting | 12:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:02 | |
| alex_xu | alex_xu take a look at merge user-data into servers and contact the contributor | 12:02 |
| alex_xu | #link https://review.openstack.org/258235 | 12:02 |
| alex_xu | I worked out that patch, and contributor happy to see this help, so people just need help for review | 12:03 |
| alex_xu | #topic content patches up for review | 12:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "content patches up for review (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:03 | |
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| alex_xu | about api doc, I saw few patch for concept docs at here | 12:04 |
| alex_xu | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:bp/complete-todo-in-api-concept-doc,n,z | 12:04 |
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| alex_xu | I didn't found any activity on api ref, so probably we will focus on that later | 12:04 |
| alex_xu | jichen: thanks for working server query section :) | 12:04 |
| jichen | yw :) | 12:05 |
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| alex_xu | #topic remove project id | 12:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "remove project id (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:05 | |
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| alex_xu | not sure sdague at here. before the holiday, the focus is cleanup the sample tests, and progress looks great. that is all of thing i know | 12:06 |
| sdague | oh, I'm here now | 12:06 |
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| alex_xu | sdague: :) | 12:06 |
| alex_xu | any update on this? | 12:06 |
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| sdague | patches are up for that in nova, we're still working through testing. I need to assess where we are at today | 12:07 |
| alex_xu | sdague: cool | 12:07 |
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| alex_xu | I saw there still have few patches | 12:07 |
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| alex_xu | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:api_samples_2 | 12:08 |
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| alex_xu | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:api_samples_3 | 12:08 |
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| sdague | yeh, the get_regexes remove patch is needed to help clean up some of this path | 12:09 |
| sdague | I ended up cleaning up some of the api samples testing while I was down here, because it makes testing this another way a bit easier | 12:09 |
| sdague | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/257439/ is really the patch which we should land next on that | 12:09 |
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| sdague | anyway, all for me for now | 12:10 |
| alex_xu | sdague: what kind of help need here? I saw your patch already touch all the sample tests? | 12:11 |
| sdague | it just needs review | 12:11 |
| alex_xu | sdague: ok, got it | 12:11 |
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| alex_xu | ok, so let's move on | 12:11 |
| alex_xu | #topic API futures - patches for approved specs | 12:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "API futures - patches for approved specs (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:12 | |
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| alex_xu | I didn't see anything bring up at here | 12:12 |
| alex_xu | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:rm_v1_1 | 12:12 |
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| alex_xu | I saw this one, looks like everything already done at here | 12:13 |
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| sdague | yeh, we just need to make it past the gate | 12:13 |
| sdague | the current one is just some clean up of tests | 12:13 |
| alex_xu | sdague: ok, cool | 12:14 |
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| alex_xu | if no more question, just move on | 12:14 |
| alex_xu | #topic | 12:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:15 | |
| alex_xu | oops | 12:15 |
| alex_xu | #topic open | 12:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:15 | |
| alex_xu | top key of action return value https://review.openstack.org/#/c/259319/7/nova/api/openstack/compute/migrate_server.py | 12:15 |
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| alex_xu | looks like eliqiao need help at here | 12:15 |
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| alex_xu | but looks like he isn't online | 12:15 |
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| alex_xu | But I prefer we didn't add top key for action's return, as it is same as other action's response | 12:16 |
| sdague | alex_xu: yeh, I think consistency with what we have there is the right thing to do | 12:18 |
| sdague | good call | 12:18 |
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| alex_xu | sdague: most of actions is no return | 12:19 |
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| alex_xu | create_backup and rescue return admin_password and without top-key. remote-console return something with topkey with 'console', that looks like strange also | 12:20 |
| alex_xu | so I still prefer just no top-key | 12:20 |
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| alex_xu | I will reply that patches | 12:20 |
| alex_xu | ok, any more open today? otherwise we will have short meeting today | 12:21 |
| alex_xu | 3... | 12:22 |
| alex_xu | 2.. | 12:22 |
| alex_xu | 1. | 12:22 |
| alex_xu | thanks all, and welcome back! | 12:22 |
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| * cdent waves | 12:23 | |
| alex_xu | #endmeeting | 12:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 12:23 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 5 12:23:03 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 12:23 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2016/nova_api.2016-01-05-12.00.html | 12:23 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2016/nova_api.2016-01-05-12.00.txt | 12:23 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2016/nova_api.2016-01-05-12.00.log.html | 12:23 |
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| Qiming | #startmeeting senlin | 13:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 5 13:00:34 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:00 |
| lixinhui | hi | 13:00 |
| Qiming | hello | 13:00 |
| haiwei | hi | 13:00 |
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| elynn | hi | 13:01 |
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| Qiming | pls revise agenda if you have things to add | 13:01 |
| Qiming | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | hello | 13:02 |
| Qiming | let's check the etherpad | 13:02 |
| Qiming | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-mitaka-workitems | 13:03 |
| Qiming | heat resource type | 13:03 |
| elynn | yes | 13:03 |
| Qiming | mostly blocked by the header thing and action id | 13:03 |
| elynn | two patches are already merged | 13:03 |
| Qiming | we have discussed that this afternoon | 13:03 |
| elynn | on block by openstacksdk | 13:03 |
| Qiming | we still don't support cluster update properly I think | 13:04 |
| elynn | I will according to your suggestion to work on senlin side. | 13:04 |
| Qiming | that would be great | 13:04 |
| Qiming | senlinclient unit tests | 13:04 |
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| haiwei | finished? | 13:04 |
| haiwei | v2/shell.py is finished | 13:05 |
| haiwei | v1 | 13:05 |
| Qiming | mostly I believe | 13:05 |
| haiwei | should we do something else? | 13:05 |
| Qiming | coverage is 86^ | 13:05 |
| Qiming | 86% | 13:05 |
| Qiming | pretty good | 13:05 |
| Qiming | this one: senlinclient/openstack/common/cliutils.py | 13:05 |
| Qiming | it only has 32% coverage | 13:06 |
| haiwei | oh | 13:06 |
| Qiming | it is from oslo | 13:06 |
| haiwei | not easy to test? | 13:06 |
| Qiming | I recalled that something is happening in oslo regarding this module | 13:06 |
| Qiming | cannot remember the details | 13:06 |
| Qiming | haiwei can you help do a search on mailinglist? | 13:07 |
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| haiwei | about oslo's change? | 13:07 |
| Qiming | this is the only one we are relying on oslo incubation | 13:07 |
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| Qiming | maybe it has already graduated? | 13:07 |
| haiwei | ok, I will check it | 13:08 |
| Qiming | senlinclient/common/utils.py | 13:08 |
| Qiming | this one has 42% | 13:08 |
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| Qiming | we are about to remove senlinclient/v1/models.py | 13:08 |
| Qiming | since models are all supported in sdk now | 13:08 |
| haiwei | great | 13:09 |
| Qiming | service calls are all revised | 13:09 |
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| Qiming | health policy | 13:10 |
| Qiming | we do have some progress on this, from lixinhui | 13:10 |
| Qiming | we are adding do_check and do_recover for profiles | 13:10 |
| haiwei | saw the patches | 13:10 |
| yanyanhu | good start point I think | 13:11 |
| Qiming | those will serve the foundation for failure detection and recovery | 13:11 |
| Qiming | node update support in profiles | 13:11 |
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| yanyanhu | worked on metadata update support last week | 13:12 |
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| yanyanhu | patch in senlin side is ready | 13:12 |
| Qiming | yep, saw that, brian has some comments | 13:12 |
| yanyanhu | but it depends on the metadata refactoring in sdk side | 13:12 |
| haiwei | good job, yanyanhu | 13:12 |
| Qiming | maybe we should help push that work | 13:12 |
| yanyanhu | brian is working on it I think | 13:12 |
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| yanyanhu | yep | 13:12 |
| yanyanhu | will wait for brian's job | 13:12 |
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| Qiming | last time I checked it, it is still merge conflict | 13:12 |
| Qiming | we'll have to push him, :) | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | yes, it is still in that status now | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | thanks :) | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | seems they are waiting for some work about image metadata | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | but I guess progress is not good | 13:13 |
| Qiming | if he doesn't have cycles, we can take it over | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | will keep looking at it | 13:14 |
| Qiming | just need to understand server_metadata and metadata | 13:14 |
| Qiming | the difference and the direction | 13:14 |
| yanyanhu | yes, actually I think the latest design is better | 13:14 |
| Qiming | okay | 13:14 |
| yanyanhu | it's more clear for user | 13:14 |
| Qiming | good | 13:14 |
| yanyanhu | although the old one follows the sdk design a little bit better | 13:14 |
| yanyanhu | will spend some time on disk update support, will do some investigation first | 13:15 |
| Qiming | it is always difficult to unify things | 13:15 |
| Qiming | cool | 13:15 |
| yanyanhu | yep | 13:15 |
| Qiming | receiver | 13:16 |
| yanyanhu | haven't started this job | 13:16 |
| Qiming | we are removing webhook functional tests | 13:16 |
| yanyanhu | yep | 13:16 |
| yanyanhu | will work on it soon | 13:16 |
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| yanyanhu | to recover our functional test :) | 13:16 |
| Qiming | next time we work on a receiver test, please consider some actions simpler | 13:16 |
| yanyanhu | yep | 13:16 |
| yanyanhu | understand | 13:17 |
| Qiming | because we are already testing scaling operations in other functional tests | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | yes, so just testing webhook workflow is enough | 13:17 |
| Qiming | as we are adding more features, functional tests may eventually take a lot time | 13:17 |
| Qiming | just be careful when moving forward | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:17 |
| Qiming | release notes | 13:18 |
| Qiming | proposed a patch containing most backlogs | 13:18 |
| yanyanhu | saw your patch adding omitted release note | 13:18 |
| yanyanhu | have +2 it | 13:18 |
| Qiming | just realized how much we have accomplished .... really amazing | 13:18 |
| yanyanhu | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/263083/ | 13:19 |
| haiwei | merged now | 13:19 |
| haiwei | :) | 13:19 |
| lixinhui | cool | 13:19 |
| elynn | so quick | 13:19 |
| Qiming | please feel proud about ourselves, :) | 13:19 |
| Qiming | lock breaker | 13:20 |
| elynn | yes | 13:20 |
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| elynn | I'm thinking about adding a db table to record engine status | 13:20 |
| Qiming | I'm blocking your reenabling proposal, elynn | 13:20 |
| Qiming | yep | 13:20 |
| elynn | like other projects do | 13:20 |
| Qiming | that would be great | 13:20 |
| Qiming | maybe a dlm ? | 13:20 |
| elynn | so we don't need to call rpc to check engine status | 13:20 |
| elynn | dlm means? | 13:21 |
| Qiming | distributed lock manager | 13:21 |
| Qiming | search back mailinglist | 13:21 |
| Qiming | there have been some discussions on it | 13:21 |
| Qiming | we may need a blueprint for this | 13:21 |
| elynn | I don't know what it is now, will search for it first. | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | yes, I remeber there is a long thread talking about this | 13:21 |
| Qiming | it is more complicated than we thought | 13:22 |
| Qiming | it is a solution for distributed processes to notify each other reliably | 13:22 |
| Qiming | there is a project tooz | 13:23 |
| Qiming | just heard of its name, no details | 13:23 |
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| elynn | Seems we have a lot more project I don't know but helpful | 13:23 |
| Qiming | deletion policy for cross-az/region | 13:23 |
| elynn | I will search for it. | 13:23 |
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| Qiming | elynn, yep, share the same feeling | 13:24 |
| haiwei | just discussed it this afternoon | 13:24 |
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| Qiming | so ... whenever we start to work on some features, first thing is to check if there are existing wheels | 13:24 |
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| haiwei | it seems the use case we need will determine the design | 13:24 |
| Qiming | yes, haiwei | 13:24 |
| Qiming | really a good discussion | 13:25 |
| lixinhui | yes, it is | 13:25 |
| haiwei | we should list out what we need | 13:25 |
| Qiming | we won't be able to cover all use cases | 13:25 |
| Qiming | one design philosophy we had when proposing these policies is that we want them to be orthogonal | 13:26 |
| haiwei | will summarize it in a ether pad page for discussion | 13:26 |
| Qiming | okay | 13:26 |
| lixinhui | okay | 13:26 |
| yanyanhu | great :) | 13:26 |
| haiwei | currently I have no idea about cross region | 13:26 |
| Qiming | I do agree that all the problems we are solving can be combined into fewer number of policies | 13:26 |
| haiwei | it maybe similar to cross-zones | 13:27 |
| Qiming | yes | 13:27 |
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| Qiming | let's rethink about the design if we are not so sure where we are heading | 13:27 |
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| lixinhui | yes | 13:28 |
| haiwei | ok | 13:28 |
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| Qiming | etherpad discussion would be good | 13:28 |
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| Qiming | #topic mid-cycle meetup plan | 13:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mid-cycle meetup plan (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:29 | |
| Qiming | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-mitaka-midcycle | 13:29 |
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| Qiming | so we have a schedule for a 2-days discussion | 13:29 |
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| Qiming | first day is mostly about meeting users | 13:30 |
| haiwei | can we make the schedule more specific? for example add time period | 13:30 |
| Qiming | good suggestion | 13:30 |
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| yanyanhu | will try to contact presenter to confirm the time slot | 13:30 |
| haiwei | also including some coffee time | 13:30 |
| yanyanhu | sure :) | 13:31 |
| haiwei | thanks | 13:31 |
| Qiming | #action Qiming to refine meetup schedule (add **coffee** time) | 13:31 |
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| Qiming | haiwei, do you have something to share in the afternoon? | 13:31 |
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| haiwei | I have no idea | 13:32 |
| Qiming | okay | 13:32 |
| Qiming | lixinhui, how about you? | 13:33 |
| haiwei | maybe about tempest? | 13:33 |
| yanyanhu | the second afternoon? | 13:33 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei, good topic, I'm intereted in it :) | 13:33 |
| haiwei | ok, I will prepare for it | 13:33 |
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| Qiming | haiwei, will add a quality assurance session for you | 13:34 |
| lixinhui | I am working on health_manager | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | feel free to add other things you want to talk about | 13:35 |
| lixinhui | I do not know if proper to share some work about this | 13:35 |
| haiwei | so we will talk in Chinese, right? | 13:35 |
| Qiming | lixinhui, 'health management' session will be yours | 13:35 |
| lixinhui | oh | 13:35 |
| lixinhui | Thanks, Qiming | 13:36 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, about those topics related to Senlin, we should prepare presentation or they are feel talk? | 13:36 |
| Qiming | haiwei, you can speak Japanese if you like | 13:36 |
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| Qiming | it would be mostly free talk | 13:36 |
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| haiwei | I like free talk | 13:36 |
| yanyanhu | got it | 13:36 |
| lixinhui | :) | 13:37 |
| Qiming | certainly you can create charts to show your design idea or whatever | 13:37 |
| yanyanhu | but we can have a holder for them :) | 13:37 |
| lixinhui | It would be nice if Yanyan can share something about scalability analysis | 13:37 |
| haiwei | currently who are 100% sure to be present? | 13:37 |
| yanyanhu | ok, will try to share something about it :) | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | we do meet some issues about DB concurrency | 13:38 |
| lixinhui | Great, thanks, yanyanhu | 13:38 |
| Qiming | all people who just talked | 13:38 |
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| Qiming | and some names appeared on etherpad | 13:38 |
| Qiming | plus ... some people I don't know | 13:38 |
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| yanyanhu | lixinhui, no problem :) | 13:38 |
| Qiming | yanyanhu, 'container management' session is yours | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:39 |
| lixinhui | cool | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | just haven't got too much idea how to talk about it :P | 13:39 |
| elynn | cool, I can learn a lot from your guys. | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | maybe some experience about mesos? | 13:39 |
| Qiming | emm, if you like to lead a dicussion session, please sign your name there | 13:40 |
| Qiming | yanyanhu, day 2 is mostly about senlin design | 13:40 |
| Qiming | it would be good to share experiences learnt from mesos anyway | 13:40 |
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| elynn | I'm interesting in mesos | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | understand, just try to think about something we can work on container management :) | 13:41 |
| Qiming | right | 13:41 |
| lixinhui | interesting | 13:41 |
| Qiming | #topic open discussion | 13:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:41 | |
| lixinhui | will IBM offer coffee and cake? | 13:42 |
| lixinhui | for the 2 days | 13:42 |
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| lixinhui | lunch, maybe | 13:42 |
| Qiming | lixinhui, you can bring some from vmware if you can | 13:42 |
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| lixinhui | ... | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | LoL | 13:42 |
| haiwei | how about the lunch? | 13:42 |
| Qiming | don't worry | 13:42 |
| haiwei | that's important | 13:42 |
| lixinhui | enen, haiwei | 13:43 |
| Qiming | we will try not to starve you | 13:43 |
| haiwei | can we have si cai yi tang? | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | haha | 13:43 |
| Qiming | we may order lunch boxes | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | you can, haiwei :) | 13:43 |
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| Qiming | too many topics during the day | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | hello, Daisy | 13:43 |
| elynn | si cai yi tang for each :) | 13:44 |
| haiwei | in fact, I want to eat lunch boxes | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, ... | 13:44 |
| haiwei | I miss it | 13:44 |
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| Daisy | Hi, yanyanhu | 13:44 |
| lixinhui | god | 13:44 |
| Qiming | we can find some nice place for dinner together though | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | sure | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | that's important :P | 13:44 |
| Qiming | critical? | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | absolutely | 13:45 |
| lixinhui | :) | 13:45 |
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| lixinhui | no north gate resaurant of software park | 13:45 |
| Qiming | btw, I have released senlinclient 0.2.1 today, seeing complaints about compatibility | 13:45 |
| Qiming | we are in a good shape now, regarding the client side | 13:46 |
| haiwei | why not after deleting v1/models? | 13:46 |
| haiwei | doesn't harm though | 13:47 |
| Qiming | didn't realize we still have garbage, :( | 13:48 |
| Qiming | another heads up | 13:48 |
| Qiming | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/258222/ | 13:48 |
| Qiming | we have promised to do official release this cycle, together with all those famous projects | 13:48 |
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| haiwei | I understand your urge mode | 13:49 |
| yanyanhu | hmm, do need to fix those bugs marked as critical ASAP | 13:49 |
| Qiming | yep | 13:49 |
| Qiming | http://docs.openstack.org/releases/schedules/mitaka.html | 13:50 |
| haiwei | we still have? | 13:50 |
| Qiming | Jan 16-22 would be m-2 milestone | 13:50 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei, yep, e.g. lb policy doesn't work now | 13:51 |
| Qiming | after meetup, we will do a m-2 freeze | 13:51 |
| haiwei | I have tested lb policy a few days ago, got an 403 | 13:51 |
| Qiming | we can discuss more details about things we can finish in this cycle | 13:51 |
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| yanyanhu | haiwei, soft delete is removed now, so some logic about deleting lb member in lb policy doesn't work | 13:52 |
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| haiwei | ok, yanyanhu, I will read the source | 13:52 |
| Qiming | 403 is a rejection? | 13:53 |
| yanyanhu | yes, 403 usually means policy check failed | 13:53 |
| haiwei | it seems only admin user can get loadbalancer | 13:53 |
| Qiming | what?! | 13:53 |
| yanyanhu | hmm, didn't meet this issue before | 13:54 |
| haiwei | we are requesting loadbalancer list , right? | 13:54 |
| yanyanhu | will check it | 13:54 |
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| Qiming | pls double check | 13:54 |
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| haiwei | ok, I am not sure about that | 13:55 |
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| haiwei | will test it again | 13:55 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei, I remeber we didn't do loadbalancer list in lb_policy | 13:55 |
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| yanyanhu | will also check it | 13:55 |
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| yanyanhu | haiwei, if it does exist, you can report a bug for it :) | 13:56 |
| Qiming | 4 mins | 13:56 |
| haiwei | ok | 13:56 |
| Qiming | we'll skip weekly IRC meeting next week | 13:56 |
| haiwei | cool | 13:56 |
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| yanyanhu | haiwei, did you find proper hotel | 13:57 |
| Qiming | more accurately, replace it with a face-to-face, beer-in-hand meeting | 13:57 |
| haiwei | yes | 13:57 |
| lixinhui | :) | 13:57 |
| yanyanhu | nice | 13:57 |
| haiwei | on zhichun road | 13:57 |
| cschulz | Will there be a conference call hookup for the meet? | 13:57 |
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| yanyanhu | ok | 13:57 |
| lixinhui | wow | 13:57 |
| haiwei | not far from IBM I think | 13:57 |
| Qiming | cschulz, it will last a whole day | 13:57 |
| lixinhui | very close to VMware, haiwei | 13:57 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, maybe we can enable a callin number? | 13:57 |
| Qiming | we can use a etherpad though, cschulz | 13:58 |
| haiwei | haha, have a visit to your company? | 13:58 |
| yanyanhu | but not sure we can get a passcode | 13:58 |
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| lixinhui | Welcome, haiwewi | 13:58 |
| lixinhui | :) | 13:58 |
| Qiming | yanyanhu, we can | 13:58 |
| lixinhui | webex | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | cool, some people who can't be onsite can join by calling in | 13:59 |
| lixinhui | if need, I can share my account out | 13:59 |
| Qiming | time's up | 13:59 |
| Qiming | switch to #senlin now | 13:59 |
| haiwei | see you | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | thanks | 13:59 |
| Qiming | #endmeeting | 13:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 13:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 5 13:59:47 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 13:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-01-05-13.00.html | 13:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-01-05-13.00.txt | 13:59 |
| Qiming | thanks for attending | 13:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-01-05-13.00.log.html | 13:59 |
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| rajinir | o/ | 17:19 |
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| stevemar | o/ | 18:00 |
| raildo | o/ | 18:00 |
| shaleh | o/ | 18:00 |
| tsymanczyk | \o | 18:00 |
| david8hu | \o | 18:00 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 18:00 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:00 |
| htruta | \o | 18:00 |
| stevemar | light crowd today? or is everyone back? | 18:00 |
| gyee | \o | 18:00 |
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| stevemar | courtsey ping again: ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, claudiub, rderose, samleon, xek, MaxPC, tjcocozz | 18:01 |
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| lbragstad | stevemar not going to be able to make the meeting today :( I'll read scroll back after though! | 18:01 |
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| stevemar | lbragstad: thanks for the heads up | 18:01 |
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| stevemar | henrynash is away today too | 18:01 |
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| lbragstad | stevemar absolutely, ping if you need anything and I'll see it | 18:01 |
| shaleh | roxana is as well | 18:01 |
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| claudiub | o/ | 18:01 |
| browne | hi | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | hey team!! | 18:01 |
| lhcheng | o/ | 18:01 |
| diazjf | o/ | 18:01 |
| tjcocozz__ | o/ | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | happy new year all! o/ | 18:02 |
| gyee | samueldmq, happy new year to you too | 18:02 |
| jamielennox | o/ | 18:02 |
| stevemar | alrighty, let's start, the meeting agenda seems light | 18:02 |
| stevemar | #startmeeting keystone | 18:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 5 18:02:47 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:02 |
| stevemar | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:02 |
| samueldmq | gyee: ++ | 18:02 |
| stevemar | agenda meeting ^ | 18:03 |
| stevemar | it's just what i added last night :( | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | i'll leave time for open discussion, or we can end early | 18:03 |
| stevemar | the first two are just announcements | 18:03 |
| stevemar | #topic keystoneauth-saml2 has been retired | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "keystoneauth-saml2 has been retired (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
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| stevemar | the repo is now empty, aside from a README, there are only no-op jobs running for it's CI | 18:04 |
| stevemar | there were no releases of it, and we managed to roll the functionality into keystoneauth (by using setuptool's extras) | 18:05 |
| stevemar | so it's dead, one less repo to review - yay | 18:05 |
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| shaleh | yay | 18:05 |
| stevemar | \o/ | 18:05 |
| samueldmq | great! | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | thanks goes to the infra team for pushing that ahead | 18:05 |
| stevemar | any questions about it? | 18:05 |
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| samueldmq | no feelings involved, bye keystoneauth-saml2 | 18:06 |
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| stevemar | cool | 18:06 |
| stevemar | #topic midcycle | 18:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "midcycle (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:06 | |
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| stevemar | please make sure you've registered here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/KeystoneMitakaSprint - i'll add this to the channel's topic | 18:06 |
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| shaleh | stevemar: you mean IBM-midcycle :-) Will there be room for anyone else?? | 18:07 |
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| bknudson_ | security group midcycle is next week, as is barbican | 18:07 |
| samueldmq | shaleh: I was planning to attend it :-( | 18:07 |
| dolphm | bknudson_: going to be in SA? | 18:07 |
| shaleh | yeah, busy month for meetups | 18:07 |
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| bknudson_ | dolphm: I'll be at the security group midcycle in SA | 18:07 |
| stevemar | shaleh: there are a few rackers coming too :P | 18:07 |
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| stevemar | i'm trying to get us food for each day we're there | 18:08 |
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| stevemar | for lunch | 18:08 |
| shaleh | stevemar: our group should be booked by end of week. Guanf and I setup yesterday | 18:08 |
| bknudson_ | no jamielennox :( | 18:08 |
| stevemar | so PM me if you have dietary restrictions/allergies | 18:08 |
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| dolphm | IBM, Rackspace, Mirantis and HP are represented so far | 18:09 |
| jamielennox | bknudson_: i was hoping to combine it with another meeting, but that part has fallen through | 18:09 |
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| stevemar | shaleh: cool, just remember to update the page so i have a clear # on how many ppl are coming | 18:09 |
| bknudson_ | next time in australia | 18:09 |
| shaleh | bknudson_: ++ | 18:09 |
| jamielennox | bknudson_: i'm sure i can organize some space | 18:09 |
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| rderose | stevemar how do you register? | 18:09 |
| dolphm | new zealand | 18:09 |
| stevemar | rderose: fill out the table here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/KeystoneMitakaSprint | 18:09 |
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| stevemar | rderose: or email me saying you're coming and i'll fill it out | 18:10 |
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| dolphm | stevemar: there's not actually any instructions on the wiki to tell people to add their names | 18:10 |
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| stevemar | ... | 18:10 |
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| stevemar | it's a sign up sheet, but sure, i can add a sentence | 18:11 |
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| bknudson_ | make sure to <blink> | 18:11 |
| stevemar | lol | 18:11 |
| gyee | I want Pho for lunch | 18:11 |
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| shaleh | gyee: hard to cater that | 18:11 |
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| dolphm | <blink><marquee> | 18:12 |
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| diazjf | gyee: I'll be there and I know some good pho places ;) | 18:12 |
| stevemar | dolphm: there: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/KeystoneMitakaSprint#Registration | 18:12 |
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| gyee | diazjf, ++ | 18:12 |
| stevemar | alright, moving on | 18:12 |
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| stevemar | spread the word to those who aren't here | 18:13 |
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| stevemar | #topic Mitaka-2 milestone | 18:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mitaka-2 milestone (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:13 | |
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| stevemar | the due date is coming up quickly - the week of Jan 21 | 18:13 |
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| stevemar | #link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/mitaka-2 | 18:14 |
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| stevemar | there are some features that haven't been started or have slow progress | 18:14 |
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| htruta | stevemar: can't reseller appear on that list? :( | 18:14 |
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| notmorgan | htruta: no | 18:15 |
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| stevemar | htruta: there are a few blueprints related to multi-tenancy on the list | 18:15 |
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| stevemar | we've got a whole lot to do and we need lots of reviews in the next few weeks from folks that aren't proposing code | 18:16 |
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| htruta | stevemar: ok. I'll keep on the reviews | 18:16 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: count me in | 18:16 |
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| stevemar | if you see a bug that should be fixed and it hasn't been triaged, please go ahead and triage it too | 18:17 |
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| stevemar | also, any feature that doesn't have code proposed by milestone-2 will be moved to N | 18:19 |
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| stevemar | this was already communicated earlier in the release | 18:19 |
| gyee | stevemar, so MFA will be pushed to N then? | 18:19 |
| stevemar | gyee: that's on the agenda, we'll get to it | 18:19 |
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| stevemar | gyee: for now, i mean things that a) have been approved for M, and b) have no code | 18:20 |
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| stevemar | AFAIK - mfa hasn't landed it's spec yet | 18:21 |
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| stevemar | if someone has any questions about it, you can bug on -keystone | 18:21 |
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| stevemar | #topic MFA | 18:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "MFA (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:22 | |
| stevemar | let's talk MFA now | 18:22 |
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| gyee | yeah spec is kinda late | 18:22 |
| stevemar | gyee: you've recently +2'ed the spec, thoughts? | 18:22 |
| stevemar | i'll admit i haven't looked at the latest revision | 18:22 |
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| bknudson_ | if it's marked as experimental then why not? | 18:22 |
| gyee | stevemar, the proposed impl should be fairly trivial | 18:22 |
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| gyee | we cut a lot out from the original spec | 18:22 |
| stevemar | bknudson_: review time taken away from features that were proposed earlier | 18:23 |
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| gyee | the original proposal was three specs rolled into one | 18:23 |
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| stevemar | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130376/ | 18:23 |
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| bknudson_ | do we review features in order that they were proposed? | 18:24 |
| gyee | it shouldn't take more than a weekend to get it implemented :) | 18:24 |
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| stevemar | gyee: pfft, tell that to our growing list of technical debt | 18:24 |
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| stevemar | gyee you'll agree to review the implementation? | 18:25 |
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| gyee | stevemar, yes, I will | 18:25 |
| stevemar | any one else? | 18:25 |
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| gyee | stevemar, and other reviews | 18:25 |
| bknudson_ | I'll review the changes | 18:25 |
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| stevemar | bknudson_: you eventually need to sleep | 18:26 |
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| stevemar | or recharge, whatever it is cyborgs do | 18:26 |
| dstanek | stevemar: i have no problem reviewing it | 18:26 |
| bknudson_ | there's always too much to do so I just prioritize | 18:26 |
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| gyee | bknudson, make sure to download the google app and try it out too | 18:26 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: I can do it too | 18:26 |
| gyee | google authenticator app I mean | 18:26 |
| bknudson_ | i've got the symantec app | 18:26 |
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| stevemar | alright | 18:27 |
| gyee | that should work too | 18:27 |
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| stevemar | bknudson_: take a look a the spec then | 18:27 |
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| stevemar | dstanek: you too | 18:27 |
| bknudson_ | will do | 18:27 |
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| stevemar | give it the old 2x +2 and +A treatment | 18:28 |
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| jamielennox | bknudson_: no, symantec is weird and different | 18:28 |
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| gyee | jamielennox, oh? you ran into interop issues? | 18:28 |
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| notmorgan | you do know that the way auth plugins work in keystone this wont work as proposed? | 18:29 |
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| notmorgan | this isn't totp | 18:29 |
| notmorgan | at all | 18:29 |
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| jamielennox | the symantec VIP does some sort of registration with their service to exchange hashes and then you get an ID in the app and exchange - not the hash | 18:30 |
| notmorgan | the issue is you need a new plugin that requires both totp and password not the password,totp | 18:30 |
| jamielennox | the only reason i can see for this is so that they can bill per user | 18:30 |
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| stevemar | a wild notmorgan appears... explain your concerns please | 18:30 |
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| notmorgan | as, even as described in the spec if one plugin passes, the auth is successful | 18:30 |
| gyee | nope | 18:30 |
| notmorgan | this means as proposed you can auth ONLY with totp | 18:30 |
| gyee | all methods has to pass | 18:30 |
| notmorgan | gyee: no | 18:30 |
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| notmorgan | that is not how it has been implemented at least unles someone changed it | 18:31 |
| gyee | you CAN auth with totp only | 18:31 |
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| notmorgan | then i am -2 on the spec | 18:31 |
| shaleh | gyee: * If one matches, the authentication is considered successful | 18:31 |
| gyee | but if both methods are specified, all has to pass | 18:31 |
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| bknudson_ | once we get a totp implementation we can refine it. | 18:31 |
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| shaleh | notmorgan: that is a small bit of spec refinement to ensure AND, not OR | 18:32 |
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| shaleh | notmorgan: your concern of it working at all is a bigger one | 18:32 |
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| notmorgan | this weakens keystone's auth | 18:32 |
| notmorgan | if used | 18:32 |
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| gyee | how does that weaken keystone auth? | 18:33 |
| notmorgan | if the user can specify either password, or totp, or whatever | 18:33 |
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| notmorgan | that is not adding MFA in at all | 18:33 |
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| gyee | even totp by itself is a hell lot better than a static password | 18:34 |
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| gyee | like I said, that was a 3 spec deal | 18:34 |
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| gyee | the other spec will mandate the methods used for a given user/project/domain | 18:35 |
| notmorgan | i am -2 for that spec as is, the same as I was when the same thing was proposed before | 18:35 |
| notmorgan | sorry | 18:35 |
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| gyee | that existing spec is just the plugin itself | 18:35 |
| notmorgan | the spec as it is proposed | 18:35 |
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| notmorgan | it should be part of the password plugin not a separate plugin the user *must* add in like password,totp with the separate sections | 18:36 |
| notmorgan | if you want to call it MFA, make it mfa | 18:36 |
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| notmorgan | if you want to just implement a totp auth plugin, that isn't what this spec is | 18:37 |
| gyee | it wouldn't be a password plugin | 18:37 |
| notmorgan | it is part of the password auth. | 18:37 |
| gyee | MFA is a concept | 18:37 |
| notmorgan | this is not MFA | 18:37 |
| gyee | doesn't have to be a password | 18:37 |
| notmorgan | this is "other ways to auth" | 18:38 |
| jamielennox | notmorgan: where are you reading that you don't need to authenticate all methods in a auth request? | 18:38 |
| gyee | it could be a combination of 2 - n factors | 18:38 |
| gyee | impl various | 18:38 |
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| bknudson_ | as far as I know there's no way to say that a user must auth with password and totp | 18:38 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: when i looked into this before when it was proposed auth is just bizzarly implemented within keystone | 18:38 |
| dstanek | notmorgan: i don't know if this weakens it other than to give a false sense of security | 18:39 |
| gyee | bknudson_, you can't, MFA does not tied to passwords | 18:39 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: i equate false sense of secutiry to weaken | 18:39 |
| bknudson_ | gyee: password was an example. there's no way to say that a user must auth with both x and y methods. | 18:39 |
| shaleh | so do we need 'mfa' plugin that calls out to password and totp? | 18:39 |
| gyee | there's no false sense, the methods are in the token data | 18:39 |
| notmorgan | bknudson_: ++ | 18:39 |
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| dolphm | bknudson_: policy should be able to say that | 18:40 |
| dstanek | why doesn't the new mfa plugin accept the password and token; and then behind the scenes validate them both? | 18:40 |
| jamielennox | so i think it was the ebay group that wanted to add to keystone that for some projects you needed to have certain forms of auth, this would be a precursor to that | 18:40 |
| dstanek | notmorgan: fair point | 18:40 |
| bknudson_ | dolphm: that would be cool | 18:40 |
| notmorgan | so if someone wants to propose that side, i'd support it | 18:40 |
| dolphm | bknudson_: "role:admin and factors:2" or something | 18:40 |
| gyee | bknudson_, that will be in the second spec, tied the auth methods with the user/project/domain, like I said before | 18:40 |
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| notmorgan | but i don't support this spec. i didn't support this spec when it was implemented before | 18:40 |
| notmorgan | s/implemented/proposed/ | 18:40 |
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| bknudson_ | gyee: I'm fine with it being a separate spec. | 18:40 |
| shaleh | notmorgan: could this spec be adjusted with the understanding that it is laying groundwork and not the final goal? | 18:41 |
| gyee | dolphm, right, you can authz with policy as well, given we have the aut methods in the headers | 18:41 |
| notmorgan | this spec is "add a totp auth method", which seems absurd as a spec | 18:41 |
| notmorgan | well without more detail on where the secrets live etc | 18:41 |
| gyee | notmorgan, how is it absurd? totp is a hell lot better than passwords | 18:42 |
| gyee | secrets comes from credentials | 18:42 |
| shaleh | gyee: the spec says it needs to store user secrets but is not clear on where or how | 18:42 |
| stevemar | notmorgan: the secrets are stored in /v3/credentials | 18:42 |
| gyee | the 3rd spec would be to roll a credentials backend for barbican | 18:42 |
| notmorgan | stevemar: oh god | 18:42 |
| notmorgan | stevemar: terrible place to store it :( | 18:43 |
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| jamielennox | i don't think keystone can rely on barbican | 18:43 |
| notmorgan | but w/e | 18:43 |
| gyee | I am not saying we will | 18:43 |
| shaleh | jamielennox: the current spec removed the barbican requirement | 18:43 |
| gyee | credential backends are pluggable, just like any backends | 18:43 |
| gyee | hell you can roll a credential backend for your favorite ESKM :) | 18:44 |
| notmorgan | so this spec does not cover MFA, this spec sortof kindof says it's adding totp as a method of authentication | 18:44 |
| notmorgan | so, i stand by the -2 | 18:44 |
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| shaleh | notmorgan: what would it take to change that to a +2? | 18:44 |
| gyee | it lays the ground work for MFA, so if we want to play with the wording | 18:44 |
| notmorgan | if you want to change the spec and make it clear it is only adding a totp auth method and clarify where the secrets are stored/generated/etc? | 18:44 |
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| notmorgan | i'd -1 it instead | 18:45 |
| haneef | stevemar: u can't have secrets for totp stored in plain text in /v3/cred table just like we store key pairs | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | is it a matter of changing from 'adding mfa' to 'adding totp'? mfa comes later in another spec ? | 18:45 |
| gyee | sure, I can update it to make it more clear | 18:45 |
| notmorgan | do not call it mfa | 18:45 |
| notmorgan | this is not mfa | 18:45 |
| gyee | like I said, this is a 3 spec deal | 18:45 |
| stevemar | haneef: that's another good point :( | 18:45 |
| gyee | to get what we really wanted | 18:45 |
| notmorgan | i think you're doing this the wrong way | 18:45 |
| notmorgan | you should fix the other side of this first | 18:45 |
| stevemar | gyee: refer to haneef's comment | 18:45 |
| shaleh | gyee: the spec does not explain that it is 1 of 3. | 18:45 |
| gyee | haneef, the spec said we encrypt it | 18:45 |
| gyee | master key is configurable | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | gyee: "we swear we will ecrypt this" | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | i really don't think this spec is baked | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | static master key isn't really much better. | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | but enough to dodge the "this is plain text" argument | 18:46 |
| shaleh | notmorgan: agreed. Which is why I am asking for how to help the submitter get to a good position. | 18:46 |
| gyee | whahhh? are we saying fernet keys are no good?! :) | 18:46 |
| gyee | duuuude | 18:47 |
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| gyee | lets be realistic here | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | gyee: totp keys aren't rotated | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | in most cases | 18:47 |
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| gyee | they can be rotated via cred apis | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | gyee: no one does that | 18:47 |
| * ayoung shows up late | 18:47 | |
| gyee | huh? | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | ok anyway so here is what you need for me to lift the -2 from this spec | 18:47 |
| gyee | APIs are there, what do you mean no one does that | 18:48 |
| gyee | no one rotate fernet keys? | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | 1) either fix it to address adding MFA support not just TOTP auth plugin | 18:48 |
| gyee | if their compliance officer as them to, they better | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | gyee: if MFA is a 3 part spec, then this would seem to be the simplest part of MFA. why not attempt one of the other parts first ? | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | or 2) make it about just adding totp as an auth method and clarify the secret storing/generation/etc | 18:48 |
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| notmorgan | and at that point i'll move my -2 to a -1 | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | and let stevemar determine if it is baked enough to land | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | gyee: when was the last time you changed your google authenticator totp key? it's only when you change devices | 18:49 |
| dstanek | i'm not sure i understand what secret it wants to store | 18:49 |
| gyee | jamielennox, I've got emails form my IT department to change my password every 3 froggin months | 18:49 |
| notmorgan | if you want to address the MFA suport (vs just adding an auth plugin) I'd consider dropping the -2 to a no-score | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | gyee: right, but never to change your 2fa PSK | 18:49 |
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| notmorgan | dstanek: if it's doing TOTP the server needs to know the shared secert | 18:50 |
| gyee | jamielennox, if my IT department mandates it, I have no choice | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: to make sure your HMAC+time offset is sane | 18:50 |
| gyee | whether I like it or not | 18:50 |
| dstanek | does this want to create its own want to do totp instead of using something like rsa? | 18:50 |
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| notmorgan | dstanek: TOTP is a well defined algorithm | 18:50 |
| gyee | compliance is non-negotiable | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: regardless of the implementation | 18:50 |
| dstanek | notmorgan: sure, but if we are implementing then there are lots of details missing | 18:51 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: if it is doing RSA proprietary it'll need to talk to the RSA device | 18:51 |
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| gyee | anyway, let me touch up that spec and we'll go from there | 18:51 |
| dstanek | is nonameentername here? | 18:52 |
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| stevemar | doesn't look like it | 18:53 |
| gyee | if we get this working, he owe me Pho | 18:53 |
| stevemar | he'll owe you his first born | 18:53 |
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| gyee | hah | 18:54 |
| dstanek | gyee: that's too much work, just ask for the Pho | 18:54 |
| gyee | ++ | 18:54 |
| stevemar | quick topic change while we still have 6 minutes | 18:54 |
| stevemar | #topic Deprecating python-keystoneclient-kerberos | 18:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deprecating python-keystoneclient-kerberos (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:54 | |
| stevemar | i talked to jamielennox and bknudson_ about this, there's no reason to keep it around | 18:55 |
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| stevemar | the logic is in keystoneauth now | 18:55 |
| shaleh | yeah, see I told you ayoung. No one uses kerberos :-) | 18:55 |
| stevemar | hehe | 18:55 |
| bknudson_ | keystoneauth is the greates | 18:55 |
| bknudson_ | greates | 18:55 |
| ayoung | shaleh, not true...but that plugin is not needed as is | 18:55 |
| bknudson_ | greatest | 18:55 |
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| ayoung | we need negotiate on the session, | 18:55 |
| ayoung | so auth pluginis just a generic Federatation plugin | 18:55 |
| stevemar | ayoung: i think keystoneauth has all the patches you are looking for | 18:56 |
| gyee | ayoung, tell these guys the keytabs are not encrypted :) | 18:56 |
| ayoung | gyee, tell who that? | 18:56 |
| stevemar | looks like django-openstack-auth is the only library that uses keystone-kerberos, jamielennox i think you created DOA? | 18:56 |
| stevemar | err... DOA-kerb | 18:56 |
| gyee | yeah, DOA-kerb is jamie's work | 18:57 |
| bknudson_ | If DOA-kerb stopped using it then that would be easier to justify removing it | 18:57 |
| stevemar | we need to deprecate ksc-kerb and migrate DOA-kerb to use ksa | 18:57 |
| jamielennox | stevemar: yea, it's essentially the same deal as ksc-kerberos, we didn't want DOA to have a direct dependency on kerberos libs | 18:57 |
| gyee | ayoung, I was referring to the unencrypted creds discussion we had earlier | 18:57 |
| ayoung | Keytabs are unencrypted | 18:58 |
| jamielennox | AFAIK there has not been a similar discussion in DOA about using extras, lhcheng_ might know | 18:58 |
| ayoung | there I told them | 18:58 |
| * gyee high-5s ayoung | 18:58 | |
| jamielennox | stevemar: but doa-kerb can easily be made to use ksa-kerberos (though i don't think it's been ported to ksa yet) | 18:58 |
| notmorgan | gyee: but totp keys are not rotated in most cases and doing a master key rotation via the API is not even discussed | 18:58 |
| jamielennox | ah, sorry ksa[kerberos] | 18:58 |
| notmorgan | so... | 18:58 |
| stevemar | jamielennox: it has | 18:58 |
| jamielennox | stevemar: really? then doa-kerberos is broken anywa | 18:59 |
| jamielennox | y | 18:59 |
| stevemar | jamielennox: ? | 18:59 |
| stevemar | bah, out of time | 18:59 |
| stevemar | thanks everyone | 18:59 |
| stevemar | #endmeeting | 18:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 5 18:59:44 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-01-05-18.02.html | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-01-05-18.02.txt | 18:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-01-05-18.02.log.html | 18:59 |
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| fungi | infra team, assemble! | 19:00 |
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| SotK | o/ | 19:00 |
| pabelanger | yo joe! | 19:00 |
| Zara | o/ | 19:00 |
| fungi | knowing is half the battle | 19:00 |
| AJaeger | o/ | 19:00 |
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| crinkle | o/ | 19:01 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:01 |
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| mordred | o/ | 19:02 |
| clarkb | ohai | 19:02 |
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| * anteaya wonders what we are waiting for | 19:03 | |
| pabelanger | COBRA | 19:03 |
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| fungi | jeblair: nibalizer: jhesketh: pleia2: SergeyLukjanov: around? | 19:04 |
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| asselin | o/ | 19:04 |
| anteaya | continuation of health coverage? | 19:04 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:04 |
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| anteaya | pleia2 may still be at the vet | 19:04 |
| fungi | timothyb89: austin81: AJaeger: i also have you on the agenda | 19:04 |
| jeblair | o/ | 19:05 |
| fungi | i guess we'll go ahead and start | 19:05 |
| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:05 |
| austin81 | o/ | 19:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 5 19:05:21 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:05 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:05 |
| fungi | #topic Announcements | 19:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:05 | |
| fungi | i didn't have any new announcements for this week, but will repeat any from the past couple meetings for the benefit of those who had a life ;) | 19:06 |
| fungi | #info Tentative deadline for infra-cloud sprint registrations is Friday, January 29, 2016. | 19:06 |
| fungi | #info HPE is catering lunches at the infra-cloud sprint; please update your registration with any dietary restrictions. | 19:06 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-December/003602.html | 19:07 |
| nibalizer | thanks hpe | 19:07 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/InfraMitakaSprint | 19:07 |
| fungi | that was all we had under announcements looks like | 19:07 |
| jeblair | i'm hungry already | 19:07 |
| mordred | mmmm | 19:07 |
| fungi | me^2 | 19:07 |
| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:07 | |
| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-12-29-19.02.html | 19:08 |
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| fungi | AJaeger propose a spec to consolidate translation setup | 19:08 |
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| fungi | that was based on outcome from the discussion in last week's meeting | 19:08 |
| fungi | anybody happen to spot of that is up? | 19:08 |
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| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/262545 | 19:09 |
| fungi | i think that | 19:09 |
| fungi | 's it | 19:09 |
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| anteaya | looks like it | 19:09 |
| fungi | still wip, but i'll not readd the action | 19:09 |
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| fungi | it's at least in progress | 19:09 |
| fungi | that's all we still had on action items | 19:09 |
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| fungi | #topic Specs approval | 19:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:09 | |
| AJaeger | yep, in progress - I need some input from all of you on this ;) | 19:09 |
| cody-somerville | \o_ | 19:09 |
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| fungi | repeating this one since i deferred it an extra week to give vacationers some opportunity to check it out | 19:10 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/246550 | 19:10 |
| fungi | PROPOSED: Consolidation of docs jobs | 19:10 |
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| fungi | #info Council voting is open on the "Consolidation of docs jobs" spec until 19:00 UTC on Thursday, January 7, 2016. | 19:10 |
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| fungi | AJaeger has been a spec-writing fiend lately | 19:11 |
| fungi | anyway, that's the only spec on the agenda currently | 19:11 |
| AJaeger | That's enough specs for this year, fungi ;) | 19:11 |
| jeblair | oh hrm | 19:11 |
| fungi | heh | 19:11 |
| jeblair | it's worth discussing why we don't just run 'tox -e docs' now | 19:12 |
| AJaeger | jeblair: I'm happy to have that discussion! | 19:12 |
| fungi | cue pti discussion from 2015 tc meetings? | 19:12 |
| jeblair | which is because in the past, people have put extra steps in the tox env which means the normal way of building docs with setup.py doesn't work | 19:12 |
| jeblair | right | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | this previously came up at the tc level with a proposed change to the project testing interface | 19:13 |
| jeblair | anyway -- i'm not advocating that we must keep things the way they are... | 19:13 |
| AJaeger | jeblair: the challenge is if there's more than one root - releasenotes, api doc, and "normal" docs which gets also published in different places | 19:13 |
| pabelanger | Ya, I was pretty surprised to find out tox -edocs wasn't run in the gate a few weeks ago. | 19:14 |
| jeblair | however, i think it's worth noting that they are the way they are on purpose, and if we want to change them, we need to either decide that we don't care about the benefits we're getting now or find some other way to get them | 19:14 |
| jeblair | and also, that if we change this, we need to change the PTI as well (simply an infra spec is not sufficient) | 19:14 |
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| clarkb | AJaeger: couldn't you have all o fthose be built by default? | 19:16 |
| clarkb | via a common root | 19:16 |
| AJaeger | clarkb: they might have different themes | 19:16 |
| clarkb | ah | 19:16 |
| krotscheck | o/ | 19:17 |
| AJaeger | clarkb: still, it's worth trying to do this. | 19:17 |
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| AJaeger | clarkb: I don't know yet how to do this properly and would evaluate that option, so please mention it in the spec. | 19:18 |
| fungi | any particular reason why they should have different themes for docs, api reference and release notes? | 19:18 |
| fungi | i mean, just because some of them do doesn't necessarily mean that was intended or even desired | 19:19 |
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| dhellmann | it is desired | 19:19 |
| AJaeger | fungi: http://developer.openstack.org/api-guide/compute/ uses openstackdocstheme, the others use oslo.sphinx | 19:19 |
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| AJaeger | so, that was intentional by annegentle | 19:19 |
| dhellmann | the release notes theme may change, too | 19:19 |
| fungi | cool, just making sure that was complicating this for a good reason | 19:20 |
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| fungi | so i guess the other concern is that the problem description doesn't come out and describe a problem | 19:21 |
| fungi | it notes that we run multiple brief jobs but doesn't say why that's bad | 19:22 |
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| fungi | sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease. need to be able to evaluate whether the overhead of multiple jobs for this is sufficiently undesirable to warrant the proposed solution | 19:22 |
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| AJaeger | fungi, agreed - as I said last time: Please evaluate whether the complications this will bring is worth the decrease in jobs | 19:23 |
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| fungi | it's counter-intuitive, but long-running jobs tie up a lot more resources. the waste from these is a relatively small % of quota being burned in node churn | 19:24 |
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| fungi | anyway, let's put comments in the review and move on with the meeting agenda | 19:24 |
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| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts: Store Build Logs in Swift | 19:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Store Build Logs in Swift (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:25 | |
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| fungi | jhesketh has recently put updates up for the remaining pieces it looks like | 19:25 |
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| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:enable_swift | 19:25 |
| jeblair | yep; apparently there's a zuul change needed too | 19:25 |
| fungi | not sure if he's around and has anything else to add | 19:25 |
| jeblair | so we'll need a restart somewhere in there | 19:26 |
| fungi | two zuul changes from the look of things | 19:26 |
| fungi | or at least a change in two parts | 19:26 |
| fungi | also looks like it includes a scope expansion on the spec | 19:27 |
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| fungi | covering swift-based file tree metadata management | 19:27 |
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| fungi | i guess nothing else to cover here at the moment, other than we can hopefully knock this out soon with some reviewing and a zuul maintenance | 19:28 |
| anteaya | thanks jhesketh | 19:28 |
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| fungi | but probably best not to schedule the maintenance until changes are close to approval | 19:28 |
| fungi | i don't see anything else being called out on the priority efforts this week, so moving on to other meeting agenda topics | 19:29 |
| fungi | #topic How to setup translations? | 19:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "How to setup translations? (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:29 | |
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| clarkb | AJaeger: I think I saw that the claim is django must use django.pot? | 19:30 |
| fungi | looks like this is the wip spec i mentioned earlier | 19:30 |
| AJaeger | not sure whether we need to discuss this again after talking about it last week. | 19:30 |
| AJaeger | please review the linked spec | 19:30 |
| fungi | AJaeger: okay, and we covered the spec under action items | 19:30 |
| AJaeger | clarkb: indeed | 19:30 |
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| fungi | but to reiterate | 19:30 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/262545 | 19:30 |
| fungi | thanks AJaeger! | 19:30 |
| fungi | #topic StackViz integration? (timothyb89, austin81) | 19:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "StackViz integration? (timothyb89, austin81) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:31 | |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BKgWlKIjgQ | 19:31 |
| fungi | what's all this then? | 19:31 |
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| timothyb89 | right, so, we're looking for input on how best to get CI going for stackviz, and to get it running for gate jobs | 19:31 |
| timothyb89 | we've detailed our goals in the etherpad, along with some examples and possible solutions | 19:32 |
| AJaeger | timothyb89: what's stackviz? | 19:32 |
| fungi | this is a tool which analyzes metrics about the services which were running under devstack during a test job? | 19:32 |
| jeblair | this looks like subunit2html? | 19:33 |
| clarkb | are you able to use the npm that ships with distros? | 19:33 |
| timothyb89 | more or less, its a performance viz and debugging tool for devstack/tempest runs | 19:33 |
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| fungi | oh, it's analyzing tempest tests individually? | 19:33 |
| clarkb | jeblair: it does a bit more, mapping resource use on the system against test runs over time | 19:33 |
| timothyb89 | clarkb: yes, it uses the same setup as openstack-health on the build-side, which is already working | 19:33 |
| jeblair | ah i see the cpu/mem stuff now | 19:33 |
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| clarkb | timothyb89: so the npm runtime cost is because npm is slow not installing/building npm? | 19:34 |
| fungi | is the test-specific part making use of the same subunit2sql database openstack-health uses? | 19:34 |
| austin81 | clarkb: Correct | 19:34 |
| fungi | ahh, you just answered that before i asked it | 19:34 |
| timothyb89 | fungi: right now it pulls all data from an actual subunit file, no db connection is needed at all | 19:34 |
| jeblair | aha, i think i'm caught up | 19:35 |
| fungi | thanks | 19:36 |
| austin81 | We are leaning towards the tarball option for storing a pre-built site, then pulling it from a d-g cleanup script | 19:36 |
| jeblair | so there's some heavy work (build stackviz) with 2 options for making sure it can happen before test runs, and then inside of test runs, just a little bit of post-processing then we can upload the statically generated results with the test results | 19:36 |
| timothyb89 | jeblair: yes, exactly that | 19:36 |
| jeblair | the downside to building in nodepool images is that sometimes we go for a long time without being able to sucessfully build them | 19:37 |
| fungi | yeah, need to be able to tolerate days, maybe even weeks, of staleness there | 19:37 |
| jeblair | so it means that if you want to change stackviz itself, there may be periods (like a week or more) where what's on nodepool is stale | 19:37 |
| fungi | also need to be able to tolerate inconsistency across providers/regions | 19:38 |
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| timothyb89 | that isn't a huge problem for us, with just the 2 of us development isn't fast-paced at all | 19:38 |
| fungi | we might successfully upload in ovh and two of three rackspace regions but have one that's exhibiting issues getting new images uploaded | 19:38 |
| fungi | or something like that | 19:38 |
| jeblair | if you're okay with that, i think building them into nodepool images is fine, and fairly simple. but if stackviz is evolving enough that you wouldn't be able to tolerate that, then the tarball think is better | 19:38 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:39 |
| jeblair | downside of tarball is there's extra network traffic and delay in each job | 19:39 |
| fungi | so as long as we expect that it will sometimes lag and may lag by different amounts in different places, it's a possibility | 19:39 |
| clarkb | how big is the output? I guess I can just look at the examples | 19:39 |
| timothyb89 | realistically we're looking at maybe 1-2 changes merged per week, and I don't see a pressing need to have changes applied immediately | 19:39 |
| timothyb89 | clarkb: ~500kb to 1.5MB if compressed, depending on log sizes | 19:39 |
| fungi | if the tarball is tiny, then it's probably not any worse than a lot of other things devstack downloads (distro package lists, for ecample) | 19:39 |
| jeblair | fungi: right | 19:39 |
| clarkb | ok thats not bad (I always worry with log related things as they can explode) | 19:40 |
| austin81 | What sort of delay are we looking at with pulling form the tarball site? | 19:40 |
| timothyb89 | clarkb: actually, the actual tarball would be only ~100kb, that larger size is post-data processing | 19:40 |
| jeblair | austin81: just whatever it takes to fetch that (possibly over an ocean) and install it | 19:40 |
| clarkb | ya I am interested in the post data processing since that gets uploaded to the log server for each job right? | 19:40 |
| fungi | austin81: no real delay. if you build in a post job for stackviz changes merged or something then basically just depends on how long the post pipeline backlog is on any given day. sometimes hours | 19:41 |
| jeblair | (clarkb and i are talking about 2 different network transfers, i'm talking about downloading stackviz itself to the worker node, clarkb is talking about uploading from the worker to the log server) | 19:41 |
| fungi | and i'm talking about uploading your tarball to the tarballs site | 19:41 |
| fungi | so make that three transfers | 19:41 |
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| austin81 | fungi: Ah okay I was more curious about pulling it onto the logs server. Not too concered about the upload speed | 19:42 |
| austin81 | Since, like timothyb89 said we are not dealing with very many patches | 19:42 |
| clarkb | and its not a python project that could hvae a prebuilt sdist on our pypi mirrors? | 19:42 |
| timothyb89 | clarkb: the demo site has a 9.8MB footprint with data due to logs, but when trimmed it is < 1MB compressed | 19:42 |
| clarkb | (I see pip on the etherpad so not sure how that works) | 19:43 |
| fungi | yeah, if tarballs are an option, then packaging them in an sdist/wheel and mirroring them on our pypi mirrors could make sense | 19:43 |
| fungi | just tag a release when you have new changes you want incorporated | 19:43 |
| timothyb89 | clarkb: the data processing is a small python module, we'll probably want some form of prepackaging for that | 19:43 |
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| clarkb | timothyb89: I am suggesting combine it all so that when you push a tag of stackviz you get a pip installable sdist that works | 19:44 |
| clarkb | then that can be done whenever you are happy with it, devstack intsalls from mirror and runs it | 19:44 |
| fungi | and includes the static web components prebuilt | 19:44 |
| clarkb | ya | 19:44 |
| timothyb89 | clarkb: ah, right, that makes sense | 19:44 |
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| fungi | anyway, it sounds like we have some potential direction on next steps for this? want to move on to the other three agenda items in the next 15 minutes | 19:45 |
| timothyb89 | that's a lot of good advice, thanks all for input! | 19:45 |
| austin81 | fungi: Yes, thank you for the discussion | 19:45 |
| fungi | thanks timothyb89/austin81! | 19:45 |
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| fungi | #topic Next steps for release automation work (dhellmann) | 19:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for release automation work (dhellmann) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:45 | |
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| fungi | #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/complete-reviewable-release-automation.html | 19:45 |
| fungi | dhellmann: i suppose some of this is dependent on me working on the artifact signing pieces i have planned | 19:46 |
| dhellmann | we have most of the scripts we need in the release-tools repo, so I'm looking for what our next steps are | 19:46 |
| fungi | the key management bits in particular | 19:46 |
| dhellmann | right now those scripts have 2 dependencies I don't know how we'll work with in CI: git keys and sending email | 19:46 |
| mordred | does key management depend on zuul v3? | 19:46 |
| fungi | not in the current design, no | 19:47 |
| mordred | kk | 19:47 |
| mordred | col | 19:47 |
| fungi | just a trusted jenkins slave | 19:47 |
| mordred | cool | 19:47 |
| jeblair | what's a git key? | 19:47 |
| mordred | jeblair: gpg key | 19:47 |
| fungi | that spec is also published but not really underway yet | 19:47 |
| jeblair | oh ok | 19:47 |
| mordred | jeblair: to use to sign the tag | 19:47 |
| dhellmann | sorry, gpg | 19:47 |
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| fungi | #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/artifact-signing.html | 19:47 |
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| jeblair | so that's probably just another secret on a trusted slave, yeah? | 19:48 |
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| fungi | i think we determined at the summit that we were just going to use the same openpgp key to make detached signatures of artifacts and to sign git tags | 19:48 |
| dhellmann | yes, that's what I remember, too | 19:48 |
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| mordred | jeblair: yah. I think so. although I'm guessing we'd want to sign that key with infra-root and release-team keys at some point maybe? | 19:48 |
| fungi | so, yes, stick in hiera, puppet onto worker | 19:48 |
| jeblair | (which means the signing job can't run any in-repo code) | 19:48 |
| fungi | mordred: yep, mentioned in the second spec i linked | 19:48 |
| mordred | woot | 19:48 |
| fungi | yeah | 19:48 |
| mordred | its like you've thought through this already | 19:49 |
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| fungi | it's like we've written this stuff a while ago because it's sometimes easier to find free time to plan than to execute ;) | 19:49 |
| jeblair | as for email -- i suppose we can have a slave (probably the same) send email; they all probably already run exim servers anyway... | 19:49 |
| dhellmann | jeblair : the signing script is http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/release-tools/tree/release.sh but I don't know if that runs code you'd define as in-tree | 19:49 |
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| jeblair | where is the email being sent to? | 19:50 |
| dhellmann | openstack-dev or openstack-announce | 19:50 |
| fungi | dhellmann: i think we discussed a while back that it might need to move to project-config jenkins/scripts directory instead | 19:50 |
| jeblair | just to lists.o.o? | 19:50 |
| dhellmann | jeblair : yeah | 19:50 |
| dhellmann | fungi : we did, that's true | 19:50 |
| fungi | and yeah, exim is running on release.slave.o.o for example | 19:50 |
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| fungi | so having the worker send e-mail is pretty trivial | 19:50 |
| jeblair | cool, then since we control that anyway, it seems like it shouldn't be much of a problem -- we don't really need a smarthost or anything since lists.o.o will effectively handle that for us. | 19:50 |
| dhellmann | the scripts generate a fully formatted email with headers and all, so we just need a way to get that into the outgoing mail queue | 19:51 |
| fungi | import smtp | 19:51 |
| fungi | smtp.send(foo) | 19:51 |
| fungi | if memory serves ;) | 19:51 |
| jeblair | (and that means this will transition to zuulv3 easily where the slave will be short-running -- we'll just make sure lists.o.o can accept mail from our slaves) | 19:51 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : yeah, I could write a little thing; I wasn't sure if something like that already existed. I'm using msmtp on my local system | 19:52 |
| jeblair | dhellmann, fungi: yeah, either smtp over port 25 or /usr/lib/sendmail should be fine. | 19:52 |
| clarkb | but zuulv3 also supports long running slave too right? so we won't have to make that transition immediately | 19:52 |
| clarkb | or as part of the switch (depending on what is easier) | 19:52 |
| jeblair | clarkb: yeah | 19:52 |
| dhellmann | what's the difference between long and short running and how does it apply here? | 19:52 |
| fungi | yeah, preferably stuff it through /usr/lib/sendmail so we get queuing in the event of a network issue | 19:52 |
| jeblair | fungi: smtp to localhost | 19:53 |
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| fungi | oh, right, that | 19:53 |
| jeblair | fungi: so network issues highly unlikely | 19:53 |
| fungi | dhellmann: the current proposal is a persistent manually maintained job worker rather than dynamic single-use nodepool-maintained workers | 19:53 |
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| jeblair | honestly, if there's no other reasion, i'd go with smtp because it's more flexible (can be used in other situations to talk to a remote smarthost with no local server) | 19:54 |
| fungi | but in zuul v3 it'll just all be the latter | 19:54 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ah, ok | 19:54 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : in that latter case, would there be a chance that the node would be killed before the queued email is actually sent? | 19:54 |
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| fungi | jeblair: yeah, the smtp module in stdlib pointed at the loopback makes the most sense, and exim is almost certainly already configured to dtrt there | 19:54 |
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| * dhellmann makes a note to work on a script to push mail to smtp on localhost | 19:55 | |
| fungi | dhellmann: hrm, perhaps. we might have to make sure the job doesn't terminate until the message is delivered | 19:55 |
| jeblair | ya | 19:55 |
| mordred | dhellmann, jeblair: I think when we go to ephemeral nodes, we'll want to do smtp to remote smarthost | 19:55 |
| fungi | worth pondering anyway | 19:55 |
| dhellmann | mordred : yeah | 19:55 |
| fungi | mordred: agreed, though then we need to do our own retrying | 19:56 |
| jeblair | yeah | 19:56 |
| mordred | indeed | 19:56 |
| jeblair | well, if we write the script now to use smtp to localhost, then it's trivial to smtp to smarthost later | 19:56 |
| fungi | we're about out of time, two topics remaining on the agenda | 19:56 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 19:56 |
| persia | Perhaps one of the small desktop-intended SMTP outbound servers would work for that, rather than all of exim. | 19:56 |
| fungi | clarkb: pabelanger: can your topics wait for next week? | 19:56 |
| mordred | persia: we've already got exim everywhere | 19:56 |
| clarkb | fungi: maybe? its time bound to january 31 | 19:56 |
| mordred | persia: doing a different smtp server would be harder | 19:56 |
| clarkb | and I will be afk ish the week prior to that | 19:56 |
| fungi | clarkb: that's why i thought it might | 19:57 |
| persia | mordred: Now, but for ephemeral? | 19:57 |
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| jeblair | (and if we're sure that we only deliver to lists.o.o, we can skip the step of setting up a smarthost and just 'smarthost' to lists.o.o :) | 19:57 |
| pabelanger | fungi: Yup | 19:57 |
| pabelanger | no rush | 19:57 |
| clarkb | we can also just discuss it really quickly after the meeting | 19:57 |
| mordred | persia: it's in our basic puppet manifests | 19:57 |
| jeblair | persia: nothing is easier than exim | 19:57 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 19:57 |
| fungi | clarkb: sounds good | 19:58 |
| fungi | pabelanger: thanks | 19:58 |
| dhellmann | jeblair : should I just have it send directly to lists.o.o now, then? | 19:58 |
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| jeblair | dhellmann: maybe? | 19:59 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: that would probably be fine, though you may want to block and retry until it succeeds in case the network hates us for brief periods | 19:59 |
| mordred | jeblair: won't he have to deal with retry logic if he does? | 19:59 |
| mordred | yeah | 19:59 |
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| fungi | anyway, we're out of time | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | k | 20:00 |
| fungi | thanks everyone! | 20:00 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 5 20:00:09 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-01-05-19.05.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-01-05-19.05.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-01-05-19.05.log.html | 20:00 |
| fungi | ttx: all yours | 20:00 |
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| ttx | ohai | 20:00 |
| russellb | hi | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:00 |
| jeblair | yellow | 20:00 |
| mestery | o/ | 20:00 |
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| mordred | herro | 20:01 |
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| * mriedem waits for the meeting to start | 20:01 | |
| * markvoelker settles in quietly in the back | 20:01 | |
| hogepodge | o/ on behalf of defcore committee | 20:01 |
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| ttx | annegentle, lifeless, flaper87, dtroyer, markmcclain, jaypipes, sdague: around ? | 20:01 |
| * edleafe lurks in the shadows... | 20:01 | |
| sdague | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 5 20:01:55 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | Hi everyone! | 20:02 |
| mriedem | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | Happy new year! | 20:02 |
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| prometheanfire | hi | 20:02 |
| lifeless | ttx: o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:02 |
| russellb | happy new year, indeed | 20:02 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
| * dims lurks | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #topic Resolution about Image Uploads and Linux Kernels | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Resolution about Image Uploads and Linux Kernels (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/256438/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | This is getting pretty close | 20:02 |
| mordred | there is a good feedback from russelb | 20:02 |
| mordred | I was waiting for any additoinal feedback before revving again | 20:02 |
| ttx | yeah I think we should add Russell's paragraph | 20:02 |
| thingee | o/ | 20:02 |
| mestery | there is indeed | 20:02 |
| russellb | would prefer that tweak, but happy otherwise | 20:03 |
| dhellmann | ++ | 20:03 |
| mordred | cool. if nobody else has anyting else, I'll rev and have it ready for next week | 20:03 |
| ttx | better include it and have a new vote round and see how far we end up | 20:03 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:03 |
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| lifeless | +1 on the tweak | 20:03 |
| ttx | if you inline edit it we can even vote on it in this meeting | 20:03 |
| mordred | oh. weird | 20:03 |
| mordred | that's super fancy | 20:03 |
| mestery | SUPER fancy | 20:03 |
| russellb | not sure that you *have* to inline edit to be able to vote in meeting, but yes :-p | 20:04 |
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| * dhellmann makes the mind blown gesture | 20:04 | |
| * ttx tried that earlier today, lots fun | 20:04 | |
| * devananda lurks as well | 20:04 | |
| russellb | i tried inline edit once, screwed it up. :( | 20:04 |
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| ttx | mordred: if you submit a new rev while the meeting is still going, let us know and we'll revote | 20:05 |
| jeblair | don't forget to save your file then save the edit then publish the edit | 20:05 |
| mordred | I inlined edited | 20:05 |
| ttx | and click OK then save | 20:05 |
| * mordred feels very hipster | 20:05 | |
| ttx | feels almost like github | 20:05 |
| mordred | not enough emoji for that | 20:06 |
| ttx | Update from Monty Taylor Show Ignore | 20:06 |
| * prometheanfire has trust issues | 20:06 | |
| ttx | hmm; tough choices | 20:06 |
| russellb | +1 | 20:06 |
| russellb | (to the update) | 20:06 |
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| lifeless | is there a hotkey for review in the new gerrit ? | 20:06 |
| russellb | 'a' | 20:06 |
| lifeless | what 'r' used to be? | 20:06 |
| lifeless | russellb: thanks | 20:06 |
| russellb | np | 20:06 |
| mestery | Nice work mordred | 20:06 |
| mordred | \o/ | 20:06 |
| * dhellmann looks for "a" in the words "review" or "reply" | 20:07 | |
| ttx | ok one more | 20:07 |
| russellb | that's 6 ... | 20:07 |
| russellb | dhellmann: yeah, no idea | 20:07 |
| russellb | dhellmann: i have it as "append" in my head | 20:07 |
| russellb | which only kind of barely makes sense | 20:07 |
| ttx | and we have a winner | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | russellb : "a review"? :-) | 20:07 |
| ttx | approved | 20:07 |
| russellb | heh, that works too | 20:07 |
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| jeblair | 'add review'? | 20:08 |
| mordred | I've been thinking "answer" | 20:08 |
| mordred | don't know why | 20:08 |
| lifeless | autobots transform ? | 20:08 |
| ttx | russellb, mordred: I suppose you will push that to appropriate board corners ? | 20:08 |
| * jeblair just hits alt-2 | 20:09 | |
| sdague | I gave up on google key shortcuts making sense a while ago with the gmail ones | 20:09 |
| mordred | ttx: I think I saw hogepodge representing defcore lurking already | 20:09 |
| russellb | hogepodge is here on behalf of defcore | 20:09 |
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| russellb | so that's a first step :) | 20:09 |
| russellb | get the feedback to that committee | 20:09 |
| ttx | ok good | 20:09 |
| russellb | so done! | 20:09 |
| ttx | #topic Add The Four Opens | 20:09 |
| hogepodge | markvoelker: is here also | 20:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add The Four Opens (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:09 | |
| russellb | hogepodge: thanks for coming | 20:09 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/256439 | 20:09 |
| russellb | and markmcclain | 20:09 |
| mordred | I have not yet done ttx's edit | 20:09 |
| russellb | err markvoelker | 20:09 |
| ttx | This one looks good to go, with the dependent patch from Doug | 20:09 |
| mordred | but I think it's a good idea | 20:09 |
| * markvoelker has duly noted it | 20:10 | |
| ttx | The version from the project team guide was a bit refactored, but I'll propose it as a followup | 20:10 |
| lifeless | ttx: well, I have a -1 on it | 20:10 |
| ttx | ah hm recent one | 20:10 |
| lifeless | ttx: basically the exact same thing as the edit on the prior patch | 20:10 |
| * purp_too catches up while lurking | 20:10 | |
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| mordred | yah - I was trying to not re-wordsmith this | 20:10 |
| mordred | it was really about moving the wiki content to the governance repo | 20:10 |
| lifeless | if we're making it more official | 20:10 |
| lifeless | I think we need to | 20:10 |
| lifeless | because well, its more official | 20:11 |
| russellb | it was already pretty official *shrug* | 20:11 |
| russellb | it gets linked all the time | 20:11 |
| ttx | lifeless: I think we can import the current version and push changes as subsequent edits | 20:11 |
| russellb | +1 to that | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | I'm comfortable with the wording as it is | 20:11 |
| ttx | same reason I'll push my refactoring from the Project Team Guide as a follow-up too | 20:11 |
| ttx | mordred is just importing the current one from the wiki | 20:12 |
| mestery | Makes sense to me | 20:12 |
| sdague | yeh, this seems fine to me | 20:12 |
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| ttx | I tend to agree that we could reword that paragraph, but I think we can bikeshed this one quite a bit and wouldn't like to hold the import too long | 20:13 |
| sdague | honestly, there are times for being more explicit and shoe banging to get the spirit across | 20:13 |
| sdague | I'm fine that this has that tone | 20:13 |
| ttx | and as russellb said, the current version is still "official" until we approve this one | 20:13 |
| mordred | we have had to be VERY explicit on the open core topic several times in the past | 20:13 |
| ttx | so not worse | 20:13 |
| mordred | including once with me yelling in a board meeting | 20:13 |
| sdague | if there was more of that previously, we wouldn't have had to spend so much time on the bring your own kernel issue | 20:14 |
| mordred | it's a "give an inch and they'll take a mile" topic | 20:14 |
| prometheanfire | +1 | 20:14 |
| lifeless | mordred: so, I'd like to see that statement from the board too then! (Amd I can't think of a better person to make that happen :)) | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | I also think it's fine to take this stance as a technical position, which is well within our purview | 20:14 |
| mordred | russellb: perhaps we should propose something at a board meeting to get the board to also say the same thing? | 20:15 |
| ttx | so I'm fine taking the majority votes we already have and merging this now, taking lifeless concern to a subsequent change | 20:15 |
| russellb | it's important for us to take a stance on, actually, because it has large implications on project scope | 20:15 |
| ttx | lifeless: does that work for you ? | 20:15 |
| mordred | jbryce: ^^ would love some feedback at some point about how such a thing might look from the board side | 20:15 |
| russellb | mordred: sure, not sure what form that would take ... | 20:15 |
| lifeless | ttx: my only concern is being respectful to the boundaries between tc and board | 20:15 |
| russellb | but generally +1 | 20:15 |
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| lifeless | I *totally* agree with the thing itself. | 20:15 |
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| russellb | kinda funny, the red hat product has enterprise in the name :-) | 20:16 |
| ttx | lifeless: I get it -- consider this version to be the import of the current situation and a base for subsequent changes | 20:16 |
| lifeless | we won't turn down contributions because they might endanger any of the open core strategies other folk are building around openstack | 20:16 |
| russellb | we could tweak working later though, i'm not worried | 20:16 |
| mordred | lifeless: that is true | 20:16 |
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| mordred | lifeless: and we also don't prevent people from having those strategies | 20:17 |
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| ttx | I'd rather review the change separately from the import | 20:17 |
| lifeless | mordred: right. Sadly. | 20:17 |
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| ttx | makes it clearer what changes and why | 20:17 |
| lifeless | ttx: sure | 20:17 |
| russellb | not really in the spirit of our licensing to prevent it, either ... i look at it as more that we don't want to artificially limit scope | 20:17 |
| lifeless | ttx: my concerns are being actioned by russellb and mordred now, so I happy :) | 20:17 |
| jeblair | we will not accept contributions that only exist to facilitate them | 20:17 |
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| ttx | ok, then I'll approve this now based on current approvals | 20:18 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 20:18 |
| ttx | approved | 20:18 |
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| ttx | looking forward to the discussion on watering down the language there (or not) | 20:18 |
| russellb | we're efficient in this new year | 20:18 |
| ttx | #topic Remove containers from Nova's mission | 20:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Remove containers from Nova's mission (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:19 | |
| ttx | Moar fun | 20:19 |
| mordred | SOOOOOO | 20:19 |
| russellb | all kinds of agreeing | 20:19 |
| purp | russellb: was just noticing that. =] | 20:19 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/256440 | 20:19 |
| mordred | there's tons of good feedback on this one | 20:19 |
| ttx | The discussion is still ongoing on this one | 20:19 |
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| ttx | Most seem to agree that containers are a second-class citizen in Nova, so the mission could omit them | 20:19 |
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| mordred | which has made me want to circle back around and try to express the intent before hacking on wording | 20:19 |
| ttx | BUT most seem also to agree that support for containers should stay in Nova | 20:19 |
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| mordred | yah | 20:19 |
| ttx | So the discussion is now around what changing the mission would actually result in. | 20:19 |
| mordred | I don't think I ever wanted to suggest deleting them | 20:19 |
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| mordred | it's pluggable, you can do whatever | 20:19 |
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| russellb | just not the primary intent of the API | 20:20 |
| mordred | but making it clear that nova's purpose in life is not to be a docker/kube competing container management/orchestration system, but rather a system that shines as infrastructure on which to run things like kube and swarm | 20:20 |
| russellb | making it a primary target implies lots of stuff that could/should be done, so makes sense to change it to me | 20:20 |
| mordred | russellb: exactly | 20:20 |
| russellb | ++ | 20:20 |
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| mordred | I do not believe what is currently written in this expresses that clearly | 20:20 |
| mestery | mordred: ++ to what you're saying there | 20:21 |
| russellb | nice to see all the good feedback | 20:21 |
| mordred | and to the concern in the comments, I think if we do it _right_ it's a positive message to the container ecosystem, not a "openstack doesn't care about containers" | 20:21 |
| ttx | mordred: agree that putting containers on the same level as VM in the current mission was a bit misleading | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | on a procedural note, how do we get the nova team to sign off on the change, since they're not pushing it? | 20:21 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: ptl +1 | 20:21 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: ask them ? | 20:21 |
| ttx | although in theory we can just push it | 20:21 |
| sdague | well, there is a lot of nova core feedback on the change already | 20:22 |
| mordred | I think getting nova ptl happy is important | 20:22 |
| ttx | I'd rather have them agree with the mission they have :) | 20:22 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | sdague : enough, though? | 20:22 |
| sdague | dhellmann: it's mostly negative | 20:22 |
| jbryce | i think the “run a kernel/image/look like a server” delineation coming from the earlier position around defcore is really important. containers can sometimes look like a server—a unit of infrastructure—but more and more are used as the application unit vs an infrastructure unit and i think that kind of usage is what fits poorly with nova | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | sdague : how many nova core +1 do we need to feel comfortable that the team has had a chance to consider the change? | 20:22 |
| mordred | jbryce: ++ | 20:22 |
| devananda | mordred: no, I jbryce ++ | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | sdague , ttx: I don't think the ptl is enough | 20:22 |
| russellb | dhellmann: i'd say leave that to the PTL to ensure before he signs off | 20:23 |
| devananda | woops. typo | 20:23 |
| bauzas | I don't really see a consensus on removing that | 20:23 |
| russellb | meaning, trust the PTL to gather the team's consensus | 20:23 |
| purp | russellb ++ | 20:23 |
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| sdague | right, so what about just truncating the mission statement | 20:23 |
| sdague | To implement services and associated libraries to provide massively scalable, on demand, self service access to compute resources. | 20:23 |
| jbryce | treating containers in ways that look like a server makes some sense under the nova api and i think people will continue to have some use cases for that. treating a container in the way that kubernetes does for instance makes no sense in nova land to me | 20:24 |
| sdague | and stop calling out the tech | 20:24 |
| russellb | jbryce: agreed | 20:24 |
| jbryce | sdague: i think “compute resource” is not quite specific enough, thought, and leads to some of the confusion | 20:24 |
| dansmith | sdague: FWIW, I think calling out the specific layer is important | 20:24 |
| dansmith | jbryce: agreed | 20:24 |
| russellb | yeah, i think some more detail is useful here | 20:24 |
| jbryce | sdague: a kubernetes container construct is about a differently abstracted type of compute resource | 20:24 |
| dansmith | TBH, I don't really want baremetal to be in the scope as stated | 20:24 |
| sdague | sure, and I don't disagree with that | 20:24 |
| devananda | dansmith: calling out the specific tech is only adding confusion, esp. as the tech (and how its used) changes | 20:25 |
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| jbryce | hence why i (clunkily) was saying infrastructure unit of compute vs application unit of compute | 20:25 |
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| dansmith | devananda: well, I disagree :) | 20:25 |
| jbryce | don’t know that i have the best terms myself, but when i’ve talked with people about the issue that seems to be where things start to get confusing | 20:25 |
| mordred | dansmith: right. but I think _that_ is a different conversatoin tbh - I was trying to keep this specifically about "things that can run kernels" vs " things that can't" | 20:25 |
| sdague | but I also think that this sentences is the wrong place to slice all that | 20:25 |
| mordred | dansmith: since the bare metal conversation is on murkier lines and needs to also be sorted out | 20:25 |
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| devananda | dansmith: unless you think nova should be about virtualization -- and nothing else? | 20:25 |
| sdague | I mean look at the mission statements from other projects | 20:25 |
| sdague | "To implement services and associated libraries to provide on-demand, | 20:25 |
| sdague | scalable, and technology-agnostic network abstraction." | 20:25 |
| russellb | heh, yeah, that's pretty broad | 20:26 |
| mestery | Indeed | 20:26 |
| dansmith | mordred: yeah I just would hate someone to expect us to adopt another baremetal driver peer to ironic on the grounds that it's in here. But, agree it can be a different convo | 20:26 |
| ttx | It's an aspiration, not a description | 20:26 |
| mordred | dansmith: I also agree with that - that would be hella yuck | 20:26 |
| mestery | Something to strive for | 20:26 |
| markmcclain | mission: boil the ocean | 20:26 |
| dansmith | heh | 20:26 |
| ttx | the goal, not the status | 20:26 |
| devananda | dansmith: I agree with your concern there too | 20:26 |
| mestery | sdague: I really like your truncated mission statement from above. | 20:27 |
| ttx | mordred: so it looks like you need to have another take at wording and come back another week ? | 20:27 |
| mordred | oh yeah | 20:27 |
| sdague | because I think that what gets done in a project at the end of the day is based on a shared understanding in that project | 20:27 |
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| mordred | sdague: it is - BUT - nova is special and important tbh | 20:27 |
| ttx | and then we need to revive the feedback loop from Nova people | 20:27 |
| dansmith | sdague: we do have a mission statement in nova itself, so should this just say "do what nova considers to be its mission" ? | 20:27 |
| mordred | in that people outside the project need to understand its boundries more so than with the other projects | 20:28 |
| sdague | and in reality, I think there is a general shared understand in Nova right now that this is mostly about Virt, and some other things that can expose to look at it a bit, when they make sense. | 20:28 |
| bauzas | I know that johnthetubaguy is pushing hard for describing feature classification, it would probably help the discussion | 20:28 |
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| dansmith | bauzas: still, johnthetubaguy has said on that review that he favors things that run a kernel, so I think he's still on board with tightening | 20:28 |
| bauzas | I mean, we have some feature capabilities that need to be accepted by drivers, others that would not be fine for some features look not good for Nova mission | 20:28 |
| sdague | bauzas: yeh, that's a long road to get there | 20:28 |
| mordred | thing is - I tihnk this isn't just about the nova team - largely because the nova team thinks it's just about virt - but consumers want a compute api that can give vms and bare metal - so if nova is just a virt layer, we might need to grow a compute consolidation layer that has nova and ironic backends | 20:29 |
| mordred | and I think that's a very big kind of decision | 20:29 |
| ttx | Also not totally sold on this change being a natural consequence of the previous position on byok | 20:29 |
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| mordred | dansmith: ++ | 20:29 |
| edleafe | ttx: +1 | 20:29 |
| cdent | mordred: I think that's somewhat true. I also think people want to sometimes choose a container | 20:29 |
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| mestery | mordred: That would be a much larger decision | 20:29 |
| bauzas | dansmith: yeah, I agree with that position | 20:29 |
| lifeless | mission statements are largely for not-the-team IMO | 20:30 |
| cdent | not coordination thereof, just booting one | 20:30 |
| lifeless | they are a coordination and communication thing | 20:30 |
| ttx | It's a welcome clarification on what the priority is, not a natural consequence of byok | 20:30 |
| jbryce | mordred: i agree completely | 20:30 |
| bauzas | our hypervisor support matrix already provide some way to explain what a nova driver should implement | 20:30 |
| mordred | cdent: I have heard people say tht they've heard people want that, but I haven't experienced many people actually wanting that - as evidenced by how historically nobody has ever cared about the lxc driver that's been there for 6 years | 20:30 |
| devananda | so it seems there are two parallel ways of looking at this: is Nova only about virt (or also baremetal or containers or other tech) vs. is Nova about "computers" or "units of compute" | 20:30 |
| bauzas | that comes to a far larger scope | 20:31 |
| ttx | mordred: yeah, I don't expect fat (infra-unit) containers to stay a thing for long | 20:31 |
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| mordred | me either | 20:31 |
| purp | lifeless: Having struggled with how to explain the reasoning for a DefCore decision, I tend to agree ... but they need to be crisp enough to help the team think, too. | 20:31 |
| devananda | as jbryce said earlier, the way many folks use containers does not fit well with Nova as it is today -- and I think that's perfecty fine | 20:32 |
| lifeless | purp: certainly, yes. | 20:32 |
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| mordred | devananda: ++ | 20:32 |
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| devananda | and I think it's worth the TC making a statement about that | 20:32 |
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| sdague | I guess I'm not seeing that urgency, personally. We had one confused product team at Oracle that did a thing we didn't like. We've clarified that. | 20:33 |
| ttx | OK, I propose we continue the debate on the review until at least next week. I suspect mordred might push a new rev | 20:33 |
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| annegentle | sdague: I think that's where I am also. Project team missions are their missions. | 20:33 |
| sdague | I think it's ok that we react to things that people do that we don't like by telling them so | 20:34 |
| dansmith | annegentle: +1, and since the TC one currently disagrees with nova's stated one, there should be a fix | 20:34 |
| sdague | not by trying to preemptively imagine all possible failures and protect against them | 20:34 |
| annegentle | dansmith: patch the nova repo you mean? | 20:34 |
| mordred | sdague: I agree - it's not urgent. however, I think it is important to start a conversatoin about the vm/baremetal/conatiner intent more broadly than nova-core, becuase I think more than any other team this particular topic is super far-reaching in terms of openstack as awhole | 20:34 |
| dansmith | annegentle: no, patch the TC one | 20:34 |
| devananda | I'd also like to see some clarification from the nova team as to whether they view Nova as specific to virtualization technologies, since that has come up a few times in this discussion | 20:34 |
| annegentle | dansmith: ah ok then yep | 20:35 |
| devananda | mordred: ++ | 20:35 |
| dansmith | annegentle: nova has a documented mission, and if the TC one conflicts, then change the TC one (or loosen to remove the conflict) | 20:35 |
| devananda | this topic has significant implications for workload scheduling across projects | 20:35 |
| jbryce | sdague: i can see not requiring a new policy to be adopted, but i think discussing these and working through the issues is actually very valuable | 20:35 |
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| dansmith | mordred: who are you calling an awhole? | 20:35 |
| devananda | that is one of, if not, my main interest in it right now | 20:35 |
| mordred | dansmith: who am I not? :) | 20:35 |
| dansmith | mordred: touche. | 20:35 |
| annegentle | dansmith: snort | 20:35 |
| ttx | alright, let's move on | 20:35 |
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| ttx | next topic! | 20:36 |
| mordred | if the nova team thinks one thing for the future of openstack, and the tc thinks a different thing - we need to dig in to that and figure out it - so consider this mainly just an opening to the conversation | 20:36 |
| purp | sdague: I'd argue it's useful to clarify now to lend more guidance/direction so that future folks don't go so far astray. | 20:36 |
| annegentle | it's a valuable conversation and needs lots of talk lots of places :) | 20:36 |
| mordred | annegentle: ++ | 20:36 |
| ttx | and a discussion we'll continue soon ! | 20:36 |
| ttx | #topic Cross-project spec rubberstamp: Add clouds.yaml support specification | 20:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cross-project spec rubberstamp: Add clouds.yaml support specification (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:36 | |
| annegentle | thanks jbryce for insights also | 20:36 |
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| sdague | purp: I will be massively surprised if 1 paragraph in a yaml file prevents people from going astray | 20:36 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/236712 | 20:36 |
| ttx | annegentle posted a few questions and asked for clarification, not much answers on this one | 20:36 |
| sdague | after many dozen person to person conversations did not | 20:37 |
| purp | sdague: True, but it's also the transcripts of these discussions and the review comments that get used as guidance. | 20:37 |
| ttx | mordred: ETOOMANYREVIEWS | 20:37 |
| mordred | ttx: inorite? | 20:37 |
| ttx | Maybe simpler to wait ? | 20:37 |
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| ttx | unless you feel you can answer live to Anne | 20:37 |
| annegentle | ttx: should I follow up on any of the projects to research their current state? | 20:37 |
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| annegentle | or maybe mordred knows what to do with them :) | 20:38 |
| mordred | annegentle: new projects should implement cli's as plugins to openstackclient | 20:38 |
| annegentle | mordred: yeah, that sounds right to me | 20:38 |
| mordred | annegentle: existing projects ... I'm working on making patches for all of them :) | 20:38 |
| mordred | I mostly wrote this so I wouldn't have to explain why I was writing patches for everyone 100 times | 20:38 |
| ttx | annegentle: so do we need another rev or are you good with that one ? | 20:39 |
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| annegentle | mordred: I still need a line for "what do newish projects do?" | 20:40 |
| mordred | kk | 20:40 |
| mordred | I'll rev | 20:40 |
| annegentle | mordred: thanks | 20:40 |
| ttx | alright, let's push it back | 20:40 |
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| ttx | #topic Cross-project spec rubberstamp: Backwards compat for libraries and clients | 20:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cross-project spec rubberstamp: Backwards compat for libraries and clients (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:40 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/226157 | 20:40 |
| mordred | yay this one isn't me!!! | 20:40 |
| annegentle | heh | 20:40 |
| ttx | arh nothing like a last-minute -1 | 20:40 |
| * ttx reads | 20:40 | |
| lifeless | \o/ | 20:41 |
| lifeless | yeah | 20:41 |
| lifeless | mriedem: so, the dependency mgmt spec covered the issues with capping | 20:41 |
| lifeless | mriedem: I really don't want to revisit that *again* | 20:41 |
| lifeless | mriedem: not when its already a spec, and nothing has changed to make capping better | 20:41 |
| mriedem | i don't really have that spec in my head atm | 20:41 |
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| mriedem | there have been things which have made capping less painful | 20:42 |
| mriedem | which i've pointed out several times before | 20:42 |
| lifeless | https://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-specs/specs/requirements-management.html | 20:42 |
| ttx | lifeless: if you end up doing another rev, maybe leave the tag details to the tag definition discussion, as I suggested. But don't do a rev just for that | 20:42 |
| lifeless | ttx: I think I need to, because release-constraints won't be static - it will change as libraries do point releases | 20:43 |
| lifeless | ttx: I didn't add that back in after adding stable branches-stay-a-thing-in post summit discussion, and mriedem noticed (thanks!) | 20:44 |
| ttx | lifeless: ok. Maybe that one was not that ready for rubberstamping after all | 20:44 |
| ttx | let's push it back to the drawing board for a bit ? | 20:44 |
| lifeless | ttx: well, it did previously have mriedem 's +1, so who knew :/ | 20:44 |
| ttx | heh | 20:44 |
| ttx | it's the 2016 mriedem | 20:44 |
| mriedem | well, it's a big spec, and we were hashing it over again in irc today | 20:44 |
| mriedem | i've never been crazy about this honestly | 20:44 |
| mriedem | but i've gotten tired of fighting it | 20:45 |
| dansmith | yeah, there was a big discussion on IRC today, | 20:45 |
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| dansmith | which seemed to open a lot of significant concerns | 20:45 |
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| dansmith | from myself, the stable PTL, and the oslo PTL | 20:45 |
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| lifeless | mriedem: I think the point we disagree on is whether capping works | 20:45 |
| dansmith | so I don't think acting like mriedem is crazy is appropriate here | 20:45 |
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| ttx | better now than after we approve the spec :) | 20:45 |
| lifeless | dansmith: noone is acting like mriedem is crazy, are they ? | 20:45 |
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| mriedem | i get that capping sucks, but it's sucked for a reason many times in the past (icehouse and juno are fresh in my mind), and a lot of those reasons have been improved | 20:45 |
| dansmith | lifeless: the language used above is kinda rude and not very welcoming to discussion, yeah | 20:46 |
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| lifeless | dansmith: thanks for letting me know, though I really can't see that. He had voted, we moved to rubber stamp, and then a problem was found (excellent!) and we're discussing it more | 20:46 |
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| ttx | I for one welcome the extra discussion. We need to get those things right | 20:47 |
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| lifeless | dansmith: I kinda feel like you're escalting in the worst possible way what I'm typing on IRC today | 20:47 |
| mriedem | i've always thought this was weird from a packaging perspective | 20:47 |
| dansmith | TBH, I hadn't had a chance to read this spec before the large discussion today, so I haven't commented on it, | 20:47 |
| dansmith | but it seems like there are some implications or procedures that need to get worked out | 20:47 |
| lifeless | anyhow, procedure wise, this is not ready for TC rubber-stamp | 20:47 |
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| ttx | yes | 20:47 |
| lifeless | so lets let the meeting proceed, and folk interested in this can go to openstack-dev probably as the most relevant place, and we can discuss further | 20:48 |
| ttx | We may have to schedule it again for cross-project discussion if necessary | 20:48 |
| ttx | lifeless: agreed | 20:48 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:48 | |
| ttx | * "Upstream development" track at the Austin OpenStack Summit | 20:48 |
| ttx | Over the holidays came the good news that we'll have an "Upstream development" track at the Austin Summit | 20:48 |
| ttx | It's something I suggested a couple of months ago so that we can clearly have upstream-developer-targeted presentations | 20:48 |
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| ttx | without artificially using cross-project workshop space just to raise developer awareness on specific topics | 20:48 |
| annegentle | ttx: remind me, which direction is that? | 20:49 |
| ttx | It shall happen on the Monday in Austin, with Design Summit starting on Tuesday | 20:49 |
| annegentle | ttx: ah ok | 20:49 |
| ttx | Things I expect to fit in this track are: | 20:49 |
| ttx | general communication about development process changes | 20:49 |
| ttx | new features in a central project that need adoption in other projects | 20:49 |
| ttx | present corner use cases that may need support from development | 20:49 |
| ttx | developer-oriented infra talks | 20:49 |
| ttx | development best practices, lightning talks on cool tricks | 20:49 |
| ttx | things we abused other tracks for in the past, with varying success | 20:50 |
| ttx | I'll need a couple of co-chairs for this track. I suspect everyone is interested, but I only need a few, so only raise your hand if you *really* want to be part of it :) | 20:50 |
| ttx | questions on that ? | 20:50 |
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| russellb | i like it :) | 20:50 |
| russellb | that's not a question, though. | 20:50 |
| jeblair | russellb: do you like it? | 20:50 |
| mestery | Very good idea (also not a question) | 20:50 |
| russellb | jeblair: i do! thanks for asking! | 20:50 |
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| sdague | might be worth a brain storming session on the stuff we'd like to see in there, and rounding up volunteers | 20:51 |
| ttx | (NB: we still have "project updates" as a track for developers to present new features to operators/endusers) | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | sdague : ++ | 20:51 |
| ttx | sdague: yes, before the deadline | 20:51 |
| sdague | ttx: yep | 20:51 |
| ttx | sdague: I'll take the action of organizing that | 20:51 |
| ttx | #action ttx to set up a brainstorming about what the TC would like to see on the upstream dev track | 20:52 |
| purp | n00b question: what does a co-chair do to help organize a track? | 20:52 |
| ttx | sdague: I think I'd like to have a lightning talk slot on cool tricks | 20:52 |
| ttx | purp: vote on proposed talks | 20:52 |
| purp | ttx ... and ... ? | 20:53 |
| ttx | in this case I expect the co-chairs to reflect the consensus from the TC | 20:53 |
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| sdague | ttx: can we make sure those are recorded as well? | 20:53 |
| * purp doesn't believe anything is that simple. ;D | 20:53 | |
| ttx | purp: make the final selection in the summit org interface ? | 20:53 |
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| ttx | sdague: they should all be | 20:53 |
| jbryce | sdague: recording with as well? upstream track or lightning talks? | 20:53 |
| jbryce | which* | 20:53 |
| edleafe | purp: trust us! :) | 20:54 |
| ttx | jbryce: both I suspect... but everything would have a presentation format and benefit from our crazy AV support | 20:54 |
| sdague | jbryce: upstream track | 20:54 |
| purp | edleafe: you forget, I *know* you. | 20:54 |
| purp | =D | 20:54 |
| jbryce | upstream track will be recorded by default, lightning talks, may or may not be depending on where they end up | 20:54 |
| sdague | ok, great | 20:54 |
| ttx | jbryce: they would end up in a traditional presentation slot/room | 20:54 |
| jbryce | unless you’re saying a lightning talk slot in the upstream track itself | 20:54 |
| jbryce | ttx: ahh, then yes | 20:54 |
| ttx | * N/O naming | 20:55 |
| ttx | mordred: I've seen the poll results. Did you already push ordered candidate names to Lauren, or should I ? | 20:55 |
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| ttx | I kind of expect Newton to end up encumbered. Olimpic may also be an issue, given the IOC strongarmed enforcement of trademark. We'll see | 20:55 |
| mordred | I have pushed them to lauren/foundation staff | 20:55 |
| jbryce | ttx: if you want them separated out by video, let us know when you decide on a lightning talk slot because we’ll have to adjust the video set up for that | 20:55 |
| annegentle | ttx: heh I was still parsing N/O | 20:55 |
| jbryce | we’ve sent them to the trademark lawyers for review | 20:55 |
| jbryce | waiting for feedback | 20:55 |
| mordred | I kinda want newton to win so that we can get back at apple for stepping on swift | 20:55 |
| jeblair | sadly NO name is NO go | 20:56 |
| mordred | but that's maybe not a good official position :) | 20:56 |
| edleafe | mordred: I don't think they'd be crying too much | 20:56 |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 20:56 |
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| ttx | hmm, sounds like a no | 20:57 |
| ttx | Alright then... | 20:58 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 20:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 5 20:58:29 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-01-05-20.01.html | 20:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-01-05-20.01.txt | 20:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-01-05-20.01.log.html | 20:58 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone! | 20:58 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:58 |
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