Tuesday, 2016-01-05

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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jan  5 08:00:22 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:00
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lennyb_anteaya: hi08:01
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anteayahey lennyb_08:01
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anteayahow are you today?08:01
lennyb_anteaya: thanks, how are you?08:01
anteayagood thanks08:02
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anteayado you have anything you want to discuss today?08:02
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lennyb_not really.08:02
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anteayaI don't have anything myself08:02
anteayaokay thanks for being here08:02
lennyb_u tii08:02
lennyb_you roo08:02
anteayawe will see if anyone else shows up08:03
anteayaI don't understand your last two statements08:03
lennyb_thank you too :)08:03
anteayaoh okay thank you08:03
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anteayaI do see anyone else showing up for this meeting so far08:08
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anteayaany objection to me closing the meeting?08:08
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lennyb_no, see you next week08:09
anteayathanks lennyb_08:09
anteayahave a good day08:09
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"08:09
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jan  5 08:09:38 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:09
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-01-05-08.00.html08:09
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-01-05-08.00.txt08:09
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-01-05-08.00.log.html08:09
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alex_xu#startmeeting nova api12:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jan  5 12:00:03 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is alex_xu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.12:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.12:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova_api'12:00
alex_xuWho is here in new year?12:00
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alex_xujichen: happy new year :)12:01
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jichenalex_xu: you too ~12:01
alex_xucdent: happy new year too :)12:01
cdentthanks, happy new year everybody12:01
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alex_xuI know gmann and Ken'ichi won't be here today12:01
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* bauzas prepares to lurk actively12:02
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alex_xuok, let's run the meeting, and quickly go through the thing as today just few peoples here12:02
alex_xu#topic actions from last meeting12:02
*** openstack changes topic to "actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:02
alex_xualex_xu take a look at merge user-data into servers and contact the contributor12:02
alex_xu#link https://review.openstack.org/25823512:02
alex_xuI worked out that patch, and contributor happy to see this help, so people just need help for review12:03
alex_xu#topic content patches up for review12:03
*** openstack changes topic to "content patches up for review (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:03
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alex_xuabout api doc, I saw few patch for concept docs at here12:04
alex_xu#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:bp/complete-todo-in-api-concept-doc,n,z12:04
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alex_xuI didn't found any activity on api ref, so probably we will focus on that later12:04
alex_xujichen: thanks for working server query section :)12:04
jichenyw :)12:05
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alex_xu#topic remove project id12:05
*** openstack changes topic to "remove project id (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:05
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alex_xunot sure sdague at here. before the holiday, the focus is cleanup the sample tests, and progress looks great. that is all of thing i know12:06
sdagueoh, I'm here now12:06
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alex_xusdague: :)12:06
alex_xuany update on this?12:06
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sdaguepatches are up for that in nova, we're still working through testing. I need to assess where we are at today12:07
alex_xusdague: cool12:07
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alex_xuI saw there still have few patches12:07
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alex_xu#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:api_samples_212:08
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alex_xu#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:api_samples_312:08
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sdagueyeh, the get_regexes remove patch is needed to help clean up some of this path12:09
sdagueI ended up cleaning up some of the api samples testing while I was down here, because it makes testing this another way a bit easier12:09
sdaguehttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/257439/ is really the patch which we should land next on that12:09
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sdagueanyway, all for me for now12:10
alex_xusdague: what kind of help need here? I saw your patch already touch all the sample tests?12:11
sdagueit just needs review12:11
alex_xusdague: ok, got it12:11
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alex_xuok, so let's move on12:11
alex_xu#topic API futures - patches for approved specs12:12
*** openstack changes topic to "API futures - patches for approved specs (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:12
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alex_xuI didn't see anything bring up at here12:12
alex_xu#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:rm_v1_112:12
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alex_xuI saw this one, looks like everything already done at here12:13
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sdagueyeh, we just need to make it past the gate12:13
sdaguethe current one is just some clean up of tests12:13
alex_xusdague: ok, cool12:14
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alex_xuif no more question, just move on12:14
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:15
alex_xu#topic open12:15
*** openstack changes topic to "open (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:15
alex_xutop key of action return value https://review.openstack.org/#/c/259319/7/nova/api/openstack/compute/migrate_server.py12:15
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alex_xulooks like eliqiao need help at here12:15
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alex_xubut looks like he isn't online12:15
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alex_xuBut I prefer we didn't add top key for action's return, as it is same as other action's response12:16
sdaguealex_xu: yeh, I think consistency with what we have there is the right thing to do12:18
sdaguegood call12:18
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alex_xusdague: most of actions is no return12:19
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alex_xucreate_backup and rescue return admin_password and without top-key. remote-console return something with topkey with 'console', that looks like strange also12:20
alex_xuso I still prefer just no top-key12:20
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alex_xuI will reply that patches12:20
alex_xuok, any more open today? otherwise we will have short meeting today12:21
alex_xuthanks all, and welcome back!12:22
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* cdent waves12:23
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"12:23
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jan  5 12:23:03 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)12:23
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2016/nova_api.2016-01-05-12.00.html12:23
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2016/nova_api.2016-01-05-12.00.txt12:23
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2016/nova_api.2016-01-05-12.00.log.html12:23
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Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jan  5 13:00:34 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
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Qimingpls revise agenda if you have things to add13:01
Qiming#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda13:02
Qiminglet's check the etherpad13:02
Qiming#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-mitaka-workitems13:03
Qimingheat resource type13:03
Qimingmostly blocked by the header thing and action id13:03
elynntwo patches are already merged13:03
Qimingwe have discussed that this afternoon13:03
elynnon block by openstacksdk13:03
Qimingwe still don't support cluster update properly I think13:04
elynnI will according to your suggestion to work on senlin side.13:04
Qimingthat would be great13:04
Qimingsenlinclient unit tests13:04
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haiweiv2/shell.py is finished13:05
Qimingmostly I believe13:05
haiweishould we do something else?13:05
Qimingcoverage is 86^13:05
Qimingpretty good13:05
Qimingthis one: senlinclient/openstack/common/cliutils.py13:05
Qimingit only has 32% coverage13:06
Qimingit is from oslo13:06
haiweinot easy to test?13:06
QimingI recalled that something is happening in oslo regarding this module13:06
Qimingcannot remember the details13:06
Qiminghaiwei can you help do a search on mailinglist?13:07
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haiweiabout oslo's change?13:07
Qimingthis is the only one we are relying on oslo incubation13:07
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Qimingmaybe it has already graduated?13:07
haiweiok, I will check it13:08
Qimingthis one has 42%13:08
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Qimingwe are about to remove senlinclient/v1/models.py13:08
Qimingsince models are all supported in sdk now13:08
Qimingservice calls are all revised13:09
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Qiminghealth policy13:10
Qimingwe do have some progress on this, from lixinhui13:10
Qimingwe are adding do_check and do_recover for profiles13:10
haiweisaw the patches13:10
yanyanhugood start point I think13:11
Qimingthose will serve the foundation for failure detection and recovery13:11
Qimingnode update support in profiles13:11
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yanyanhuworked on metadata update support last week13:12
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yanyanhupatch in senlin side is ready13:12
Qimingyep, saw that, brian has some comments13:12
yanyanhubut it depends on the metadata refactoring in sdk side13:12
haiweigood job, yanyanhu13:12
Qimingmaybe we should help push that work13:12
yanyanhubrian is working on it I think13:12
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yanyanhuwill wait for brian's job13:12
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Qiminglast time I checked it, it is still merge conflict13:12
Qimingwe'll have to push him, :)13:13
yanyanhuyes, it is still in that status now13:13
yanyanhuthanks :)13:13
yanyanhuseems they are waiting for some work about image metadata13:13
yanyanhubut I guess progress is not good13:13
Qimingif he doesn't have cycles, we can take it over13:13
yanyanhuwill keep looking at it13:14
Qimingjust need to understand server_metadata and metadata13:14
Qimingthe difference and the direction13:14
yanyanhuyes, actually I think the latest design is better13:14
yanyanhuit's more clear for user13:14
yanyanhualthough the old one follows the sdk design a little bit better13:14
yanyanhuwill spend some time on disk update support, will do some investigation first13:15
Qimingit is always difficult to unify things13:15
yanyanhuhaven't started this job13:16
Qimingwe are removing webhook functional tests13:16
yanyanhuwill work on it soon13:16
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yanyanhuto recover our functional test :)13:16
Qimingnext time we work on a receiver test, please consider some actions simpler13:16
Qimingbecause we are already testing scaling operations in other functional tests13:17
yanyanhuyes, so just testing webhook workflow is enough13:17
Qimingas we are adding more features, functional tests may eventually take a lot time13:17
Qimingjust be careful when moving forward13:17
Qimingrelease notes13:18
Qimingproposed a patch containing most backlogs13:18
yanyanhusaw your patch adding omitted release note13:18
yanyanhuhave +2 it13:18
Qimingjust realized how much we have accomplished .... really amazing13:18
haiweimerged now13:19
elynnso quick13:19
Qimingplease feel proud about ourselves, :)13:19
Qiminglock breaker13:20
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elynnI'm thinking about adding a db table to record engine status13:20
QimingI'm blocking your reenabling proposal, elynn13:20
elynnlike other projects do13:20
Qimingthat would be great13:20
Qimingmaybe a dlm ?13:20
elynnso we don't need to call rpc to check engine status13:20
elynndlm means?13:21
Qimingdistributed lock manager13:21
Qimingsearch back mailinglist13:21
Qimingthere have been some discussions on it13:21
Qimingwe may need a blueprint for this13:21
elynnI don't know what it is now, will search for it first.13:21
yanyanhuyes, I remeber there is a long thread talking about this13:21
Qimingit is more complicated than we thought13:22
Qimingit is a solution for distributed processes to notify each other reliably13:22
Qimingthere is a project tooz13:23
Qimingjust heard of its name, no details13:23
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elynnSeems we have a lot more project I don't know but helpful13:23
Qimingdeletion policy for cross-az/region13:23
elynnI will search for it.13:23
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Qimingelynn, yep, share the same feeling13:24
haiweijust discussed it this afternoon13:24
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Qimingso ... whenever we start to work on some features, first thing is to check if there are existing wheels13:24
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haiweiit seems the use case we need will determine the design13:24
Qimingyes, haiwei13:24
Qimingreally a good discussion13:25
lixinhuiyes, it is13:25
haiweiwe should list out what we need13:25
Qimingwe won't be able to cover all use cases13:25
Qimingone design philosophy we had when proposing these policies is that we want them to be orthogonal13:26
haiweiwill summarize it in a ether pad page for discussion13:26
yanyanhugreat :)13:26
haiweicurrently I have no idea about cross region13:26
QimingI do agree that all the problems we are solving can be combined into fewer number of policies13:26
haiweiit maybe similar to cross-zones13:27
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Qiminglet's rethink about the design if we are not so sure where we are heading13:27
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Qimingetherpad discussion would be good13:28
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Qiming#topic mid-cycle meetup plan13:29
*** openstack changes topic to "mid-cycle meetup plan (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:29
Qiming#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-mitaka-midcycle13:29
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Qimingso we have a schedule for a 2-days discussion13:29
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Qimingfirst day is mostly about meeting users13:30
haiweican we make the schedule more specific? for example add time period13:30
Qiminggood suggestion13:30
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yanyanhuwill try to contact presenter to confirm the time slot13:30
haiweialso including some coffee time13:30
yanyanhusure :)13:31
Qiming#action Qiming to refine meetup schedule (add **coffee** time)13:31
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Qiminghaiwei, do you have something to share in the afternoon?13:31
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haiweiI have no idea13:32
Qiminglixinhui, how about you?13:33
haiweimaybe about tempest?13:33
yanyanhuthe second afternoon?13:33
yanyanhuhaiwei, good topic, I'm intereted in it :)13:33
haiweiok, I will prepare for it13:33
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Qiminghaiwei, will add a quality assurance session for you13:34
lixinhuiI am working on health_manager13:35
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Qimingfeel free to add other things you want to talk about13:35
lixinhuiI do not know if proper to share some work about this13:35
haiweiso we will talk in Chinese, right?13:35
Qiminglixinhui, 'health management' session will be yours13:35
lixinhuiThanks, Qiming13:36
yanyanhuQiming, about those topics related to Senlin, we should prepare presentation or they are feel talk?13:36
Qiminghaiwei, you can speak Japanese if you like13:36
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Qimingit would be mostly free talk13:36
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haiweiI like free talk13:36
yanyanhugot it13:36
Qimingcertainly you can create charts to show your design idea or whatever13:37
yanyanhubut we can have a holder for them :)13:37
lixinhuiIt would be nice if Yanyan can share something about scalability analysis13:37
haiweicurrently who are 100% sure to be present?13:37
yanyanhuok, will try to share something about it :)13:38
yanyanhuwe do meet some issues about DB concurrency13:38
lixinhuiGreat, thanks, yanyanhu13:38
Qimingall people who just talked13:38
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Qimingand some names appeared on etherpad13:38
Qimingplus ... some people I don't know13:38
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yanyanhulixinhui, no problem :)13:38
Qimingyanyanhu, 'container management' session is yours13:39
yanyanhujust haven't got too much idea how to talk about it :P13:39
elynncool, I can learn a lot from your guys.13:39
yanyanhumaybe some experience about mesos?13:39
Qimingemm, if you like to lead a dicussion session, please sign your name there13:40
Qimingyanyanhu, day 2 is mostly about senlin design13:40
Qimingit would be good to share experiences learnt from mesos anyway13:40
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elynnI'm interesting in mesos13:41
yanyanhuunderstand, just try to think about something we can work on container management :)13:41
Qiming#topic open discussion13:41
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:41
lixinhuiwill IBM offer coffee and cake?13:42
lixinhuifor the 2 days13:42
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lixinhuilunch, maybe13:42
Qiminglixinhui, you can bring some from vmware if you can13:42
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haiweihow about the lunch?13:42
Qimingdon't worry13:42
haiweithat's important13:42
lixinhuienen, haiwei13:43
Qimingwe will try not to starve you13:43
haiweican we have si cai yi tang?13:43
Qimingwe may order lunch boxes13:43
yanyanhuyou can, haiwei :)13:43
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Qimingtoo many topics during the day13:43
yanyanhuhello, Daisy13:43
elynnsi cai yi tang for each :)13:44
haiweiin fact, I want to eat lunch boxes13:44
yanyanhuelynn, ...13:44
haiweiI miss it13:44
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DaisyHi, yanyanhu13:44
Qimingwe can find some nice place for dinner together though13:44
yanyanhuthat's important :P13:44
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lixinhuino north gate resaurant of software park13:45
Qimingbtw, I have released senlinclient 0.2.1 today, seeing complaints about compatibility13:45
Qimingwe are in a good shape now, regarding the client side13:46
haiweiwhy not after deleting v1/models?13:46
haiweidoesn't harm though13:47
Qimingdidn't realize we still have garbage, :(13:48
Qiminganother heads up13:48
Qimingwe have promised to do official release this cycle, together with all those famous projects13:48
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haiweiI understand your urge mode13:49
yanyanhuhmm, do need to fix those bugs marked as critical ASAP13:49
haiweiwe still have?13:50
QimingJan 16-22 would be m-2 milestone13:50
yanyanhuhaiwei, yep, e.g. lb policy doesn't work now13:51
Qimingafter meetup, we will do a m-2 freeze13:51
haiweiI have tested lb policy a few days ago, got an 40313:51
Qimingwe can discuss more details about things we can finish in this cycle13:51
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yanyanhuhaiwei, soft delete is removed now, so some logic about deleting lb member in lb policy doesn't work13:52
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haiweiok, yanyanhu, I will read the source13:52
Qiming403 is a rejection?13:53
yanyanhuyes, 403 usually means policy check failed13:53
haiweiit seems only admin user can get loadbalancer13:53
yanyanhuhmm, didn't meet this issue before13:54
haiweiwe are requesting loadbalancer list , right?13:54
yanyanhuwill check it13:54
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Qimingpls double check13:54
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haiweiok, I am not sure about that13:55
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haiweiwill test it again13:55
yanyanhuhaiwei, I remeber we didn't do loadbalancer list in lb_policy13:55
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yanyanhuwill also check it13:55
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yanyanhuhaiwei, if it does exist, you can report a bug for it :)13:56
Qiming4 mins13:56
Qimingwe'll skip weekly IRC meeting next week13:56
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yanyanhuhaiwei, did you find proper hotel13:57
Qimingmore accurately, replace it with a face-to-face, beer-in-hand meeting13:57
haiweion zhichun road13:57
cschulzWill there be a conference call hookup for the meet?13:57
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haiweinot far from IBM I think13:57
Qimingcschulz, it will last a whole day13:57
lixinhuivery close to VMware, haiwei13:57
yanyanhuQiming, maybe we can enable a callin number?13:57
Qimingwe can use a etherpad though, cschulz13:58
haiweihaha, have a visit to your company?13:58
yanyanhubut not sure we can get a passcode13:58
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lixinhuiWelcome, haiwewi13:58
Qimingyanyanhu, we can13:58
yanyanhucool, some people who can't be onsite can join by calling in13:59
lixinhuiif need, I can share my account out13:59
Qimingtime's up13:59
Qimingswitch to #senlin now13:59
haiweisee you13:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jan  5 13:59:47 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-01-05-13.00.html13:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-01-05-13.00.txt13:59
Qimingthanks for attending13:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-01-05-13.00.log.html13:59
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stevemarlight crowd today? or is everyone back?18:00
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stevemarcourtsey ping again: ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, claudiub, rderose, samleon, xek, MaxPC, tjcocozz18:01
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lbragstadstevemar not going to be able to make the meeting today :( I'll read scroll back after though!18:01
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stevemarlbragstad: thanks for the heads up18:01
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stevemarhenrynash is away today too18:01
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lbragstadstevemar absolutely, ping if you need anything and I'll see it18:01
shalehroxana is as well18:01
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samueldmqhey team!!18:01
samueldmqhappy new year all! o/18:02
gyeesamueldmq, happy new year to you too18:02
stevemaralrighty, let's start, the meeting agenda seems light18:02
stevemar#startmeeting keystone18:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jan  5 18:02:47 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:02
stevemar#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:02
samueldmqgyee: ++18:02
stevemaragenda meeting ^18:03
stevemarit's just what i added last night :(18:03
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stevemari'll leave time for open discussion, or we can end early18:03
stevemarthe first two are just announcements18:03
stevemar#topic keystoneauth-saml2 has been retired18:03
*** openstack changes topic to "keystoneauth-saml2 has been retired (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:03
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stevemarthe repo is now empty, aside from a README, there are only no-op jobs running for it's CI18:04
stevemarthere were no releases of it, and we managed to roll the functionality into keystoneauth (by using setuptool's extras)18:05
stevemarso it's dead, one less repo to review - yay18:05
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stevemarthanks goes to the infra team for pushing that ahead18:05
stevemarany questions about it?18:05
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samueldmqno feelings involved, bye keystoneauth-saml218:06
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stevemar#topic midcycle18:06
*** openstack changes topic to "midcycle (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:06
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stevemarplease make sure you've registered here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/KeystoneMitakaSprint - i'll add this to the channel's topic18:06
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shalehstevemar: you mean IBM-midcycle :-) Will there be room for anyone else??18:07
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bknudson_security group midcycle is next week, as is barbican18:07
samueldmqshaleh: I was planning to attend it :-(18:07
dolphmbknudson_: going to be in SA?18:07
shalehyeah, busy month for meetups18:07
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bknudson_dolphm: I'll be at the security group midcycle in SA18:07
stevemarshaleh: there are a few rackers coming too :P18:07
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stevemari'm trying to get us food for each day we're there18:08
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stevemarfor lunch18:08
shalehstevemar: our group should be booked by end of week. Guanf and I setup yesterday18:08
bknudson_no jamielennox :(18:08
stevemarso PM me if you have dietary restrictions/allergies18:08
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dolphmIBM, Rackspace, Mirantis and HP are represented so far18:09
jamielennoxbknudson_: i was hoping to combine it with another meeting, but that part has fallen through18:09
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stevemarshaleh: cool, just remember to update the page so i have a clear # on how many ppl are coming18:09
bknudson_next time in australia18:09
shalehbknudson_: ++18:09
jamielennoxbknudson_: i'm sure i can organize some space18:09
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rderosestevemar how do you register?18:09
dolphmnew zealand18:09
stevemarrderose: fill out the table here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/KeystoneMitakaSprint18:09
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stevemarrderose: or email me saying you're coming and i'll fill it out18:10
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dolphmstevemar: there's not actually any instructions on the wiki to tell people to add their names18:10
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stevemarit's a sign up sheet, but sure, i can add a sentence18:11
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bknudson_make sure to <blink>18:11
gyeeI want Pho for lunch18:11
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shalehgyee: hard to cater that18:11
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diazjfgyee: I'll be there and I know some good pho places ;)18:12
stevemardolphm: there: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/KeystoneMitakaSprint#Registration18:12
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gyeediazjf, ++18:12
stevemaralright, moving on18:12
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stevemarspread the word to those who aren't here18:13
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stevemar#topic Mitaka-2 milestone18:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Mitaka-2 milestone (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:13
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stevemarthe due date is coming up quickly - the week of Jan 2118:13
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stevemar#link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/mitaka-218:14
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stevemarthere are some features that haven't been started or have slow progress18:14
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htrutastevemar: can't reseller appear on that list? :(18:14
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notmorganhtruta: no18:15
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stevemarhtruta: there are a few blueprints related to multi-tenancy on the list18:15
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stevemarwe've got a whole lot to do and we need lots of reviews in the next few weeks from folks that aren't proposing code18:16
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htrutastevemar: ok. I'll keep on the reviews18:16
samueldmqstevemar: count me in18:16
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stevemarif you see a bug that should be fixed and it hasn't been triaged, please go ahead and triage it too18:17
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stevemaralso, any feature that doesn't have code proposed by milestone-2 will be moved to N18:19
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stevemarthis was already communicated earlier in the release18:19
gyeestevemar, so MFA will be pushed to N then?18:19
stevemargyee: that's on the agenda, we'll get to it18:19
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stevemargyee: for now, i mean things that a) have been approved for M, and b) have no code18:20
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stevemarAFAIK - mfa hasn't landed it's spec yet18:21
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stevemarif someone has any questions about it, you can bug on -keystone18:21
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stevemar#topic MFA18:22
*** openstack changes topic to "MFA (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:22
stevemarlet's talk MFA now18:22
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gyeeyeah spec is kinda late18:22
stevemargyee: you've recently +2'ed the spec, thoughts?18:22
stevemari'll admit i haven't looked at the latest revision18:22
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bknudson_if it's marked as experimental then why not?18:22
gyeestevemar, the proposed impl should be fairly trivial18:22
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gyeewe cut a lot out from the original spec18:22
stevemarbknudson_: review time taken away from features that were proposed earlier18:23
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gyeethe original proposal was three specs rolled into one18:23
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stevemar#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130376/18:23
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bknudson_do we review features in order that they were proposed?18:24
gyeeit shouldn't take more than a weekend to get it implemented :)18:24
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stevemargyee: pfft, tell that to our growing list of technical debt18:24
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stevemargyee you'll agree to review the implementation?18:25
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gyeestevemar, yes, I will18:25
stevemarany one else?18:25
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gyeestevemar, and other reviews18:25
bknudson_I'll review the changes18:25
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stevemarbknudson_: you eventually need to sleep18:26
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stevemaror recharge, whatever it is cyborgs do18:26
dstanekstevemar: i have no problem reviewing it18:26
bknudson_there's always too much to do so I just prioritize18:26
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gyeebknudson, make sure to download the google app and try it out too18:26
samueldmqstevemar: I can do it too18:26
gyeegoogle authenticator app I mean18:26
bknudson_i've got the symantec app18:26
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gyeethat should work too18:27
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stevemarbknudson_: take a look a the spec then18:27
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stevemardstanek: you too18:27
bknudson_will do18:27
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stevemargive it the old 2x +2 and +A treatment18:28
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jamielennoxbknudson_: no, symantec is weird and different18:28
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gyeejamielennox, oh? you ran into interop issues?18:28
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notmorganyou do know that the way auth plugins work in keystone this wont work as proposed?18:29
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notmorganthis isn't totp18:29
notmorganat all18:29
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jamielennoxthe symantec VIP does some sort of registration with their service to exchange hashes and then you get an ID in the app and exchange - not the hash18:30
notmorganthe issue is you need a new plugin that requires both totp and password not the password,totp18:30
jamielennoxthe only reason i can see for this is so that they can bill per user18:30
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stevemara wild notmorgan appears... explain your concerns please18:30
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notmorganas, even as described in the spec if one plugin passes, the auth is successful18:30
notmorganthis means as proposed you can auth ONLY with totp18:30
gyeeall methods has to pass18:30
notmorgangyee: no18:30
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notmorganthat is not how it has been implemented at least unles someone changed it18:31
gyeeyou CAN auth with totp only18:31
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notmorganthen i am -2 on the spec18:31
shalehgyee: * If one matches, the authentication is considered successful18:31
gyeebut if both methods are specified, all has to pass18:31
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bknudson_once we get a totp implementation we can refine it.18:31
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shalehnotmorgan: that is a small bit of spec refinement to ensure AND, not OR18:32
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shalehnotmorgan: your concern of it working at all is a bigger one18:32
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notmorganthis weakens keystone's auth18:32
notmorganif used18:32
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gyeehow does that weaken keystone auth?18:33
notmorganif the user can specify either password, or totp, or whatever18:33
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notmorganthat is not adding MFA in at all18:33
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gyeeeven totp by itself is a hell lot better than a static password18:34
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gyeelike I said, that was a 3 spec deal18:34
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gyeethe other spec will mandate the methods used for a given user/project/domain18:35
notmorgani am -2 for that spec as is, the same as I was when the same thing was proposed before18:35
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gyeethat existing spec is just the plugin itself18:35
notmorganthe spec as it is proposed18:35
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notmorganit should be part of the password plugin not a separate plugin the user *must* add in like password,totp with the separate sections18:36
notmorganif you want to call it MFA, make it mfa18:36
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notmorganif you want to just implement a totp auth plugin, that isn't what this spec is18:37
gyeeit wouldn't be a password plugin18:37
notmorganit is part of the password auth.18:37
gyeeMFA is a concept18:37
notmorganthis is not MFA18:37
gyeedoesn't have to be a password18:37
notmorganthis is "other ways to auth"18:38
jamielennoxnotmorgan: where are you reading that you don't need to authenticate all methods in a auth request?18:38
gyeeit could be a combination of 2 - n factors18:38
gyeeimpl various18:38
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bknudson_as far as I know there's no way to say that a user must auth with password and totp18:38
notmorganjamielennox: when i looked into this before when it was proposed auth is just bizzarly implemented within keystone18:38
dstaneknotmorgan: i don't know if this weakens it other than to give a false sense of security18:39
gyeebknudson_, you can't, MFA does not tied to passwords18:39
notmorgandstanek: i equate false sense of secutiry to weaken18:39
bknudson_gyee: password was an example. there's no way to say that a user must auth with both x and y methods.18:39
shalehso do we need 'mfa' plugin that calls out to password and totp?18:39
gyeethere's no false sense, the methods are in the token data18:39
notmorganbknudson_: ++18:39
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dolphmbknudson_: policy should be able to say that18:40
dstanekwhy doesn't the new mfa plugin accept the password and token; and then behind the scenes validate them both?18:40
jamielennoxso i think it was the ebay group that wanted to add to keystone that for some projects you needed to have certain forms of auth, this would be a precursor to that18:40
dstaneknotmorgan: fair point18:40
bknudson_dolphm: that would be cool18:40
notmorganso if someone wants to propose that side, i'd support it18:40
dolphmbknudson_: "role:admin and factors:2" or something18:40
gyeebknudson_, that will be in the second spec, tied the auth methods with the user/project/domain, like I said before18:40
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notmorganbut i don't support this spec. i didn't support this spec when it was implemented before18:40
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bknudson_gyee: I'm fine with it being a separate spec.18:40
shalehnotmorgan: could this spec be adjusted with the understanding that it is laying groundwork and not the final goal?18:41
gyeedolphm, right, you can authz with policy as well, given we have the aut methods in the headers18:41
notmorganthis spec is "add a totp auth method", which seems absurd as a spec18:41
notmorganwell without more detail on where the secrets live etc18:41
gyeenotmorgan, how is it absurd? totp is a hell lot better than passwords18:42
gyeesecrets comes from credentials18:42
shalehgyee: the spec says it needs to store user secrets but is not clear on where or how18:42
stevemarnotmorgan: the secrets are stored in /v3/credentials18:42
gyeethe 3rd spec would be to roll a credentials backend for barbican18:42
notmorganstevemar: oh god18:42
notmorganstevemar: terrible place to store it :(18:43
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jamielennoxi don't think keystone can rely on barbican18:43
notmorganbut w/e18:43
gyeeI am not saying we will18:43
shalehjamielennox: the current spec removed the barbican requirement18:43
gyeecredential backends are pluggable, just like any backends18:43
gyeehell you can roll a credential backend for your favorite ESKM :)18:44
notmorganso this spec does not cover MFA, this spec sortof kindof says it's adding totp as a method of authentication18:44
notmorganso, i stand by the -218:44
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shalehnotmorgan: what would it take to change that to a +2?18:44
gyeeit lays the ground work for MFA, so if we want to play with the wording18:44
notmorganif you want to change the spec and make it clear it is only adding a totp auth method and clarify where the secrets are stored/generated/etc?18:44
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notmorgani'd -1 it instead18:45
haneefstevemar:  u can't have  secrets for totp stored in plain text in  /v3/cred table just like we store  key pairs18:45
samueldmqis it a matter of changing from 'adding mfa' to 'adding totp'? mfa comes later in another spec ?18:45
gyeesure, I can update it to make it more clear18:45
notmorgando not call it mfa18:45
notmorganthis is not mfa18:45
gyeelike I said, this is a 3 spec deal18:45
stevemarhaneef: that's another good point :(18:45
gyeeto get what we really wanted18:45
notmorgani think you're doing this the wrong way18:45
notmorganyou should fix the other side of this first18:45
stevemargyee: refer to haneef's comment18:45
shalehgyee: the spec does not explain that it is 1 of 3.18:45
gyeehaneef, the spec said we encrypt it18:45
gyeemaster key is configurable18:46
notmorgangyee: "we swear we will ecrypt this"18:46
notmorgani really don't think this spec is baked18:46
notmorganstatic master key isn't really much better.18:46
notmorganbut enough to dodge the "this is plain text" argument18:46
shalehnotmorgan: agreed. Which is why I am asking for how to help the submitter get to a good position.18:46
gyeewhahhh? are we saying fernet keys are no good?! :)18:46
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gyeelets be realistic here18:47
notmorgangyee: totp keys aren't rotated18:47
notmorganin most cases18:47
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gyeethey can be rotated via cred apis18:47
jamielennoxgyee: no one does that18:47
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notmorganok anyway so here is what you need for me to lift the -2 from this spec18:47
gyeeAPIs are there, what do you mean no one does that18:48
gyeeno one rotate fernet keys?18:48
notmorgan1) either fix it to address adding MFA support not just TOTP auth plugin18:48
gyeeif their compliance officer as them to, they better18:48
jamielennoxgyee: if MFA is a 3 part spec, then this would seem to be the simplest part of MFA. why not attempt one of the other parts first ?18:48
notmorganor 2) make it about just adding totp as an auth method and clarify the secret storing/generation/etc18:48
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notmorganand at that point i'll move my -2 to a -118:48
notmorganand let stevemar determine if it is baked enough to land18:49
jamielennoxgyee: when was the last time you changed your google authenticator totp key? it's only when you change devices18:49
dstaneki'm not sure i understand what secret it wants to store18:49
gyeejamielennox, I've got emails form my IT department to change my password every 3 froggin months18:49
notmorganif you want to address the MFA suport (vs just adding an auth plugin) I'd consider dropping the -2 to a no-score18:49
jamielennoxgyee: right, but never to change your 2fa PSK18:49
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notmorgandstanek: if it's doing TOTP the server needs to know the shared secert18:50
gyeejamielennox, if my IT department mandates it, I have no choice18:50
notmorgandstanek: to make sure your HMAC+time offset is sane18:50
gyeewhether I like it or not18:50
dstanekdoes this want to create its own want to do totp instead of using something like rsa?18:50
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notmorgandstanek: TOTP is a well defined algorithm18:50
gyeecompliance is non-negotiable18:50
notmorgandstanek: regardless of the implementation18:50
dstaneknotmorgan: sure, but if we are implementing then there are lots of details missing18:51
notmorgandstanek: if it is doing RSA proprietary it'll need to talk to the RSA device18:51
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gyeeanyway, let me touch up that spec and we'll go from there18:51
dstanekis nonameentername here?18:52
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stevemardoesn't look like it18:53
gyeeif we get this working, he owe me Pho18:53
stevemarhe'll owe you his first born18:53
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dstanekgyee: that's too much work, just ask for the Pho18:54
stevemarquick topic change while we still have 6 minutes18:54
stevemar#topic Deprecating python-keystoneclient-kerberos18:54
*** openstack changes topic to "Deprecating python-keystoneclient-kerberos (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:54
stevemari talked to jamielennox and bknudson_ about this, there's no reason to keep it around18:55
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stevemarthe logic is in keystoneauth now18:55
shalehyeah, see I told you ayoung. No one uses kerberos :-)18:55
bknudson_keystoneauth is the greates18:55
ayoungshaleh, not true...but that plugin is not needed as is18:55
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ayoungwe need negotiate on the session,18:55
ayoungso auth pluginis just a generic Federatation plugin18:55
stevemarayoung: i think keystoneauth has all the patches you are looking for18:56
gyeeayoung, tell these guys the keytabs are not encrypted :)18:56
ayounggyee, tell who that?18:56
stevemarlooks like django-openstack-auth is the only library that uses keystone-kerberos, jamielennox i think you created DOA?18:56
stevemarerr... DOA-kerb18:56
gyeeyeah, DOA-kerb is jamie's work18:57
bknudson_If DOA-kerb stopped using it then that would be easier to justify removing it18:57
stevemarwe need to deprecate ksc-kerb and migrate DOA-kerb to use ksa18:57
jamielennoxstevemar: yea, it's essentially the same deal as ksc-kerberos, we didn't want DOA to have a direct dependency on kerberos libs18:57
gyeeayoung, I was referring to the unencrypted creds discussion we had earlier18:57
ayoungKeytabs are unencrypted18:58
jamielennoxAFAIK there has not been a similar discussion in DOA about using extras, lhcheng_ might know18:58
ayoungthere I told them18:58
* gyee high-5s ayoung18:58
jamielennoxstevemar: but doa-kerb can easily be made to use ksa-kerberos (though i don't think it's been ported to ksa yet)18:58
notmorgangyee: but totp keys are not rotated in most cases and doing a master key rotation via the API is not even discussed18:58
jamielennoxah, sorry ksa[kerberos]18:58
stevemarjamielennox: it has18:58
jamielennoxstevemar: really? then doa-kerberos is broken anywa18:59
stevemarjamielennox: ?18:59
stevemarbah, out of time18:59
stevemarthanks everyone18:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jan  5 18:59:44 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-01-05-18.02.html18:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-01-05-18.02.txt18:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-01-05-18.02.log.html18:59
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fungiinfra team, assemble!19:00
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pabelangeryo joe!19:00
fungiknowing is half the battle19:00
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* anteaya wonders what we are waiting for19:03
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fungijeblair: nibalizer: jhesketh: pleia2: SergeyLukjanov: around?19:04
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anteayacontinuation of health coverage?19:04
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anteayapleia2 may still be at the vet19:04
fungitimothyb89: austin81: AJaeger: i also have you on the agenda19:04
fungii guess we'll go ahead and start19:05
fungi#startmeeting infra19:05
openstackMeeting started Tue Jan  5 19:05:21 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:05
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:05
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:05
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:05
fungi#topic Announcements19:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
fungii didn't have any new announcements for this week, but will repeat any from the past couple meetings for the benefit of those who had a life ;)19:06
fungi#info Tentative deadline for infra-cloud sprint registrations is Friday, January 29, 2016.19:06
fungi#info HPE is catering lunches at the infra-cloud sprint; please update your registration with any dietary restrictions.19:06
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-December/003602.html19:07
nibalizerthanks hpe19:07
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/InfraMitakaSprint19:07
fungithat was all we had under announcements looks like19:07
jeblairi'm hungry already19:07
fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:07
fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-12-29-19.02.html19:08
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fungiAJaeger propose a spec to consolidate translation setup19:08
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fungithat was based on outcome from the discussion in last week's meeting19:08
fungianybody happen to spot of that is up?19:08
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fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/26254519:09
fungii think that19:09
fungi's it19:09
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anteayalooks like it19:09
fungistill wip, but i'll not readd the action19:09
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fungiit's at least in progress19:09
fungithat's all we still had on action items19:09
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fungi#topic Specs approval19:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:09
AJaegeryep, in progress - I need some input from all of you on this ;)19:09
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fungirepeating this one since i deferred it an extra week to give vacationers some opportunity to check it out19:10
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/24655019:10
fungiPROPOSED: Consolidation of docs jobs19:10
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fungi#info Council voting is open on the "Consolidation of docs jobs" spec until 19:00 UTC on Thursday, January 7, 2016.19:10
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fungiAJaeger has been a spec-writing fiend lately19:11
fungianyway, that's the only spec on the agenda currently19:11
AJaegerThat's enough specs for this year, fungi ;)19:11
jeblairoh hrm19:11
jeblairit's worth discussing why we don't just run 'tox -e docs' now19:12
AJaegerjeblair: I'm happy to have that discussion!19:12
fungicue pti discussion from 2015 tc meetings?19:12
jeblairwhich is because in the past, people have put extra steps in the tox env which means the normal way of building docs with setup.py doesn't work19:12
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jeblairthis previously came up at the tc level with a proposed change to the project testing interface19:13
jeblairanyway -- i'm not advocating that we must keep things the way they are...19:13
AJaegerjeblair: the challenge is if there's more than one root - releasenotes, api doc, and "normal" docs which gets also published in different places19:13
pabelangerYa, I was pretty surprised to find out tox -edocs wasn't run in the gate a few weeks ago.19:14
jeblairhowever, i think it's worth noting that they are the way they are on purpose, and if we want to change them, we need to either decide that we don't care about the benefits we're getting now or find some other way to get them19:14
jeblairand also, that if we change this, we need to change the PTI as well (simply an infra spec is not sufficient)19:14
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clarkbAJaeger: couldn't you have all o fthose be built by default?19:16
clarkbvia a common root19:16
AJaegerclarkb: they might have different themes19:16
AJaegerclarkb: still, it's worth trying to do this.19:17
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AJaegerclarkb: I don't know yet how to do this properly and would evaluate that option, so please mention it in the spec.19:18
fungiany particular reason why they should have different themes for docs, api reference and release notes?19:18
fungii mean, just because some of them do doesn't necessarily mean that was intended or even desired19:19
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dhellmannit is desired19:19
AJaegerfungi: http://developer.openstack.org/api-guide/compute/ uses openstackdocstheme, the others use oslo.sphinx19:19
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AJaegerso, that was intentional by annegentle19:19
dhellmannthe release notes theme may change, too19:19
fungicool, just making sure that was complicating this for a good reason19:20
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fungiso i guess the other concern is that the problem description doesn't come out and describe a problem19:21
fungiit notes that we run multiple brief jobs but doesn't say why that's bad19:22
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fungisometimes the cure can be worse than the disease. need to be able to evaluate whether the overhead of multiple jobs for this is sufficiently undesirable to warrant the proposed solution19:22
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AJaegerfungi, agreed - as I said last time: Please evaluate whether the complications this will bring is worth the decrease in jobs19:23
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fungiit's counter-intuitive, but long-running jobs tie up a lot more resources. the waste from these is a relatively small % of quota being burned in node churn19:24
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fungianyway, let's put comments in the review and move on with the meeting agenda19:24
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fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Store Build Logs in Swift19:25
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fungijhesketh has recently put updates up for the remaining pieces it looks like19:25
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fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:enable_swift19:25
jeblairyep; apparently there's a zuul change needed too19:25
funginot sure if he's around and has anything else to add19:25
jeblairso we'll need a restart somewhere in there19:26
fungitwo zuul changes from the look of things19:26
fungior at least a change in two parts19:26
fungialso looks like it includes a scope expansion on the spec19:27
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fungicovering swift-based file tree metadata management19:27
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fungii guess nothing else to cover here at the moment, other than we can hopefully knock this out soon with some reviewing and a zuul maintenance19:28
anteayathanks jhesketh19:28
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fungibut probably best not to schedule the maintenance until changes are close to approval19:28
fungii don't see anything else being called out on the priority efforts this week, so moving on to other meeting agenda topics19:29
fungi#topic How to setup translations?19:29
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clarkbAJaeger: I think I saw that the claim is django must use django.pot?19:30
fungilooks like this is the wip spec i mentioned earlier19:30
AJaegernot sure whether we need to discuss this again after talking about it last week.19:30
AJaegerplease review the linked spec19:30
fungiAJaeger: okay, and we covered the spec under action items19:30
AJaegerclarkb: indeed19:30
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fungibut to reiterate19:30
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/26254519:30
fungithanks AJaeger!19:30
fungi#topic StackViz integration? (timothyb89, austin81)19:30
*** openstack changes topic to "StackViz integration? (timothyb89, austin81) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:31
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BKgWlKIjgQ19:31
fungiwhat's all this then?19:31
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timothyb89right, so, we're looking for input on how best to get CI going for stackviz, and to get it running for gate jobs19:31
timothyb89we've detailed our goals in the etherpad, along with some examples and possible solutions19:32
AJaegertimothyb89: what's stackviz?19:32
fungithis is a tool which analyzes metrics about the services which were running under devstack during a test job?19:32
jeblairthis looks like subunit2html?19:33
clarkbare you able to use the npm that ships with distros?19:33
timothyb89more or less, its a performance viz and debugging tool for devstack/tempest runs19:33
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fungioh, it's analyzing tempest tests individually?19:33
clarkbjeblair: it does a bit more, mapping resource use on the system against test runs over time19:33
timothyb89clarkb: yes, it uses the same setup as openstack-health on the build-side, which is already working19:33
jeblairah i see the cpu/mem stuff now19:33
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clarkbtimothyb89: so the npm runtime cost is because npm is slow not installing/building npm?19:34
fungiis the test-specific part making use of the same subunit2sql database openstack-health uses?19:34
austin81clarkb: Correct19:34
fungiahh, you just answered that before i asked it19:34
timothyb89fungi: right now it pulls all data from an actual subunit file, no db connection is needed at all19:34
jeblairaha, i think i'm caught up19:35
austin81We are leaning towards the tarball option for storing a pre-built site, then pulling it from a d-g cleanup script19:36
jeblairso there's some heavy work (build stackviz) with 2 options for making sure it can happen before test runs, and then inside of test runs, just a little bit of post-processing then we can upload the statically generated results with the test results19:36
timothyb89jeblair: yes, exactly that19:36
jeblairthe downside to building in nodepool images is that sometimes we go for a long time without being able to sucessfully build them19:37
fungiyeah, need to be able to tolerate days, maybe even weeks, of staleness there19:37
jeblairso it means that if you want to change stackviz itself, there may be periods (like a week or more) where what's on nodepool is stale19:37
fungialso need to be able to tolerate inconsistency across providers/regions19:38
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timothyb89that isn't a huge problem for us, with just the 2 of us development isn't fast-paced at all19:38
fungiwe might successfully upload in ovh and two of three rackspace regions but have one that's exhibiting issues getting new images uploaded19:38
fungior something like that19:38
jeblairif you're okay with that, i think building them into nodepool images is fine, and fairly simple.  but if stackviz is evolving enough that you wouldn't be able to tolerate that, then the tarball think is better19:38
jeblairdownside of tarball is there's extra network traffic and delay in each job19:39
fungiso as long as we expect that it will sometimes lag and may lag by different amounts in different places, it's a possibility19:39
clarkbhow big is the output? I guess I can just look at the examples19:39
timothyb89realistically we're looking at maybe 1-2 changes merged per week, and I don't see a pressing need to have changes applied immediately19:39
timothyb89clarkb: ~500kb to 1.5MB if compressed, depending on log sizes19:39
fungiif the tarball is tiny, then it's probably not any worse than a lot of other things devstack downloads (distro package lists, for ecample)19:39
jeblairfungi: right19:39
clarkbok thats not bad (I always worry with log related things as they can explode)19:40
austin81What sort of delay are we looking at with pulling form the tarball site?19:40
timothyb89clarkb: actually, the actual tarball would be only ~100kb, that larger size is post-data processing19:40
jeblairaustin81: just whatever it takes to fetch that (possibly over an ocean) and install it19:40
clarkbya I am interested in the post data processing since that gets uploaded to the log server for each job right?19:40
fungiaustin81: no real delay. if you build in a post job for stackviz changes merged or something then basically just depends on how long the post pipeline backlog is on any given day. sometimes hours19:41
jeblair(clarkb and i are talking about 2 different network transfers, i'm talking about downloading stackviz itself to the worker node, clarkb is talking about uploading from the worker to the log server)19:41
fungiand i'm talking about uploading your tarball to the tarballs site19:41
fungiso make that three transfers19:41
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austin81fungi: Ah okay I was more curious about pulling it onto the logs server. Not too concered about the upload speed19:42
austin81Since, like timothyb89 said we are not dealing with very many patches19:42
clarkband its not a python project that could hvae a prebuilt sdist on our pypi mirrors?19:42
timothyb89clarkb: the demo site has a 9.8MB footprint with data due to logs, but when trimmed it is < 1MB compressed19:42
clarkb(I see pip on the etherpad so not sure how that works)19:43
fungiyeah, if tarballs are an option, then packaging them in an sdist/wheel and mirroring them on our pypi mirrors could make sense19:43
fungijust tag a release when you have new changes you want incorporated19:43
timothyb89clarkb: the data processing is a small python module, we'll probably want some form of prepackaging for that19:43
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clarkbtimothyb89: I am suggesting combine it all so that when you push a tag of stackviz you get a pip installable sdist that works19:44
clarkbthen that can be done whenever you are happy with it, devstack intsalls from mirror and runs it19:44
fungiand includes the static web components prebuilt19:44
timothyb89clarkb: ah, right, that makes sense19:44
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fungianyway, it sounds like we have some potential direction on next steps for this? want to move on to the other three agenda items in the next 15 minutes19:45
timothyb89that's a lot of good advice, thanks all for input!19:45
austin81fungi: Yes, thank you for the discussion19:45
fungithanks timothyb89/austin81!19:45
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fungi#topic Next steps for release automation work (dhellmann)19:45
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fungi#link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/complete-reviewable-release-automation.html19:45
fungidhellmann: i suppose some of this is dependent on me working on the artifact signing pieces i have planned19:46
dhellmannwe have most of the scripts we need in the release-tools repo, so I'm looking for what our next steps are19:46
fungithe key management bits in particular19:46
dhellmannright now those scripts have 2 dependencies I don't know how we'll work with in CI: git keys and sending email19:46
mordreddoes key management depend on zuul v3?19:46
funginot in the current design, no19:47
fungijust a trusted jenkins slave19:47
jeblairwhat's a git key?19:47
mordredjeblair: gpg key19:47
fungithat spec is also published but not really underway yet19:47
jeblairoh ok19:47
mordredjeblair: to use to sign the tag19:47
dhellmannsorry, gpg19:47
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fungi#link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/artifact-signing.html19:47
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jeblairso that's probably just another secret on a trusted slave, yeah?19:48
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fungii think we determined at the summit that we were just going to use the same openpgp key to make detached signatures of artifacts and to sign git tags19:48
dhellmannyes, that's what I remember, too19:48
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mordredjeblair: yah. I think so. although I'm guessing we'd want to sign that key with infra-root and release-team keys at some point maybe?19:48
fungiso, yes, stick in hiera, puppet onto worker19:48
jeblair(which means the signing job can't run any in-repo code)19:48
fungimordred: yep, mentioned in the second spec i linked19:48
mordredits like you've thought through this already19:49
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fungiit's like we've written this stuff a while ago because it's sometimes easier to find free time to plan than to execute ;)19:49
jeblairas for email -- i suppose we can have a slave (probably the same) send email; they all probably already run exim servers anyway...19:49
dhellmannjeblair : the signing script is http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/release-tools/tree/release.sh but I don't know if that runs code you'd define as in-tree19:49
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jeblairwhere is the email being sent to?19:50
dhellmannopenstack-dev or openstack-announce19:50
fungidhellmann: i think we discussed a while back that it might need to move to project-config jenkins/scripts directory instead19:50
jeblairjust to lists.o.o?19:50
dhellmannjeblair : yeah19:50
dhellmannfungi : we did, that's true19:50
fungiand yeah, exim is running on release.slave.o.o for example19:50
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fungiso having the worker send e-mail is pretty trivial19:50
jeblaircool, then since we control that anyway, it seems like it shouldn't be much of a problem -- we don't really need a smarthost or anything since lists.o.o will effectively handle that for us.19:50
dhellmannthe scripts generate a fully formatted email with headers and all, so we just need a way to get that into the outgoing mail queue19:51
fungiimport smtp19:51
fungiif memory serves ;)19:51
jeblair(and that means this will transition to zuulv3 easily where the slave will be short-running -- we'll just make sure lists.o.o can accept mail from our slaves)19:51
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dhellmannfungi : yeah, I could write a little thing; I wasn't sure if something like that already existed. I'm using msmtp on my local system19:52
jeblairdhellmann, fungi: yeah, either smtp over port 25 or /usr/lib/sendmail should be fine.19:52
clarkbbut zuulv3 also supports long running slave too right? so we won't have to make that transition immediately19:52
clarkbor as part of the switch (depending on what is easier)19:52
jeblairclarkb: yeah19:52
dhellmannwhat's the difference between long and short running and how does it apply here?19:52
fungiyeah, preferably stuff it through /usr/lib/sendmail so we get queuing in the event of a network issue19:52
jeblairfungi: smtp to localhost19:53
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fungioh, right, that19:53
jeblairfungi: so network issues highly unlikely19:53
fungidhellmann: the current proposal is a persistent manually maintained job worker rather than dynamic single-use nodepool-maintained workers19:53
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jeblairhonestly, if there's no other reasion, i'd go with smtp because it's more flexible (can be used in other situations to talk to a remote smarthost with no local server)19:54
fungibut in zuul v3 it'll just all be the latter19:54
dhellmannfungi : ah, ok19:54
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dhellmannfungi : in that latter case, would there be a chance that the node would be killed before the queued email is actually sent?19:54
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fungijeblair: yeah, the smtp module in stdlib pointed at the loopback makes the most sense, and exim is almost certainly already configured to dtrt there19:54
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* dhellmann makes a note to work on a script to push mail to smtp on localhost19:55
fungidhellmann: hrm, perhaps. we might have to make sure the job doesn't terminate until the message is delivered19:55
mordreddhellmann, jeblair: I think when we go to ephemeral nodes, we'll want to do smtp to remote smarthost19:55
fungiworth pondering anyway19:55
dhellmannmordred : yeah19:55
fungimordred: agreed, though then we need to do our own retrying19:56
jeblairwell, if we write the script now to use smtp to localhost, then it's trivial to smtp to smarthost later19:56
fungiwe're about out of time, two topics remaining on the agenda19:56
mordredjeblair: ++19:56
persiaPerhaps one of the small desktop-intended SMTP outbound servers would work for that, rather than all of exim.19:56
fungiclarkb: pabelanger: can your topics wait for next week?19:56
mordredpersia: we've already got exim everywhere19:56
clarkbfungi: maybe? its time bound to january 3119:56
mordredpersia: doing a different smtp server would be harder19:56
clarkband I will be afk ish the week prior to that19:56
fungiclarkb: that's why i thought it might19:57
persiamordred: Now, but for ephemeral?19:57
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jeblair(and if we're sure that we only deliver to lists.o.o, we can skip the step of setting up a smarthost and just 'smarthost' to lists.o.o :)19:57
pabelangerfungi: Yup19:57
pabelangerno rush19:57
clarkbwe can also just discuss it really quickly after the meeting19:57
mordredpersia: it's in our basic puppet manifests19:57
jeblairpersia: nothing is easier than exim19:57
mordredjeblair: ++19:57
fungiclarkb: sounds good19:58
fungipabelanger: thanks19:58
dhellmannjeblair : should I just have it send directly to lists.o.o now, then?19:58
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jeblairdhellmann: maybe?19:59
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fungidhellmann: that would probably be fine, though you may want to block and retry until it succeeds in case the network hates us for brief periods19:59
mordredjeblair: won't he have to deal with retry logic if he does?19:59
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fungianyway, we're out of time20:00
fungithanks everyone!20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jan  5 20:00:09 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-01-05-19.05.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-01-05-19.05.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-01-05-19.05.log.html20:00
fungittx: all yours20:00
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* mriedem waits for the meeting to start20:01
* markvoelker settles in quietly in the back20:01
hogepodgeo/ on behalf of defcore committee20:01
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ttxannegentle, lifeless, flaper87, dtroyer, markmcclain, jaypipes, sdague: around ?20:01
* edleafe lurks in the shadows...20:01
ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jan  5 20:01:55 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:02
ttxHi everyone!20:02
ttxHappy new year!20:02
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lifelessttx: o/20:02
ttxOur agenda for today:20:02
russellbhappy new year, indeed20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:02
* dims lurks20:02
ttx#topic Resolution about Image Uploads and Linux Kernels20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Resolution about Image Uploads and Linux Kernels (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/256438/20:02
ttxThis is getting pretty close20:02
mordredthere is a good feedback from russelb20:02
mordredI was waiting for any additoinal feedback before revving again20:02
ttxyeah I think we should add Russell's paragraph20:02
mesterythere is indeed20:02
russellbwould prefer that tweak, but happy otherwise20:03
mordredcool. if nobody else has anyting else, I'll rev and have it ready for next week20:03
ttxbetter include it and have a new vote round and see how far we end up20:03
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lifeless+1 on the tweak20:03
ttxif you inline edit it we can even vote on it in this meeting20:03
mordredoh. weird20:03
mordredthat's super fancy20:03
mesterySUPER fancy20:03
russellbnot sure that you *have* to inline edit to be able to vote in meeting, but yes :-p20:04
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* dhellmann makes the mind blown gesture20:04
* ttx tried that earlier today, lots fun20:04
* devananda lurks as well20:04
russellbi tried inline edit once, screwed it up.  :(20:04
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ttxmordred: if you submit a new rev while the meeting is still going, let us know and we'll revote20:05
jeblairdon't forget to save your file then save the edit then publish the edit20:05
mordredI inlined edited20:05
ttxand click OK then save20:05
* mordred feels very hipster20:05
ttxfeels almost like github20:05
mordrednot enough emoji for that20:06
ttxUpdate from Monty Taylor Show Ignore20:06
* prometheanfire has trust issues20:06
ttxhmm; tough choices20:06
russellb(to the update)20:06
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lifelessis there a hotkey for review in the new gerrit ?20:06
lifelesswhat 'r' used to be?20:06
lifelessrussellb: thanks20:06
mesteryNice work mordred20:06
* dhellmann looks for "a" in the words "review" or "reply"20:07
ttxok one more20:07
russellbthat's 6 ...20:07
russellbdhellmann: yeah, no idea20:07
russellbdhellmann: i have it as "append" in my head20:07
russellbwhich only kind of barely makes sense20:07
ttxand we have a winner20:07
dhellmannrussellb : "a review"? :-)20:07
russellbheh, that works too20:07
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jeblair'add review'?20:08
mordredI've been thinking "answer"20:08
mordreddon't know why20:08
lifelessautobots transform ?20:08
ttxrussellb, mordred: I suppose you will push that to appropriate board corners ?20:08
* jeblair just hits alt-220:09
sdagueI gave up on google key shortcuts making sense a while ago with the gmail ones20:09
mordredttx: I think I saw hogepodge representing defcore lurking already20:09
russellbhogepodge is here on behalf of defcore20:09
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russellbso that's a first step :)20:09
russellbget the feedback to that committee20:09
ttxok good20:09
russellbso done!20:09
ttx#topic Add The Four Opens20:09
hogepodgemarkvoelker: is here also20:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Add The Four Opens (Meeting topic: tc)"20:09
russellbhogepodge: thanks for coming20:09
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/25643920:09
russellband markmcclain20:09
mordredI have not yet done ttx's edit20:09
russellberr markvoelker20:09
ttxThis one looks good to go, with the dependent patch from Doug20:09
mordredbut I think it's a good idea20:09
* markvoelker has duly noted it20:10
ttxThe version from the project team guide was a bit refactored, but I'll propose it as a followup20:10
lifelessttx: well, I have a -1 on it20:10
ttxah hm recent one20:10
lifelessttx: basically the exact same thing as the edit on the prior patch20:10
* purp_too catches up while lurking20:10
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mordredyah - I was trying to not re-wordsmith this20:10
mordredit was really about moving the wiki content to the governance repo20:10
lifelessif we're making it more official20:10
lifelessI think we need to20:10
lifelessbecause well, its more official20:11
russellbit was already pretty official *shrug*20:11
russellbit gets linked all the time20:11
ttxlifeless: I think we can import the current version and push changes as subsequent edits20:11
russellb+1 to that20:11
dhellmannI'm comfortable with the wording as it is20:11
ttxsame reason I'll push my refactoring from the Project Team Guide as a follow-up too20:11
ttxmordred is just importing the current one from the wiki20:12
mesteryMakes sense to me20:12
sdagueyeh, this seems fine to me20:12
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ttxI tend to agree that we could reword that paragraph, but I think we can bikeshed this one quite a bit and wouldn't like to hold the import too long20:13
sdaguehonestly, there are times for being more explicit and shoe banging to get the spirit across20:13
sdagueI'm fine that this has that tone20:13
ttxand as russellb said, the current version is still "official" until we approve this one20:13
mordredwe have had to be VERY explicit on the open core topic several times in the past20:13
ttxso not worse20:13
mordredincluding once with me yelling in a  board meeting20:13
sdagueif there was more of that previously, we wouldn't have had to spend so much time on the bring your own kernel issue20:14
mordredit's a "give an inch and they'll take a mile" topic20:14
lifelessmordred: so, I'd like to see that statement from the board too then! (Amd I can't think of a better person to make that happen :))20:14
dhellmannI also think it's fine to take this stance as a technical position, which is well within our purview20:14
mordredrussellb: perhaps we should propose something at a board meeting to get the board to also say the same thing?20:15
ttxso I'm fine taking the majority votes we already have and merging this now, taking lifeless concern to a subsequent change20:15
russellbit's important for us to take a stance on, actually, because it has large implications on project scope20:15
ttxlifeless: does that work for you ?20:15
mordredjbryce: ^^ would love some feedback at some point about how such a thing might look from the board side20:15
russellbmordred: sure, not sure what form that would take ...20:15
lifelessttx: my only concern is being respectful to the boundaries between tc and board20:15
russellbbut generally +120:15
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lifelessI *totally* agree with the thing itself.20:15
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russellbkinda funny, the red hat product has enterprise in the name :-)20:16
ttxlifeless: I get it -- consider this version to be the import of the current situation and a base for subsequent changes20:16
lifelesswe won't turn down contributions because they might endanger any of the open core strategies other folk are building around openstack20:16
russellbwe could tweak working later though, i'm not worried20:16
mordredlifeless: that is true20:16
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mordredlifeless: and we also don't prevent people from having those strategies20:17
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ttxI'd rather review the change separately from the import20:17
lifelessmordred: right. Sadly.20:17
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ttxmakes it clearer what changes and why20:17
lifelessttx: sure20:17
russellbnot really in the spirit of our licensing to prevent it, either ... i look at it as more that we don't want to artificially limit scope20:17
lifelessttx: my concerns are being actioned by russellb and mordred now, so I happy :)20:17
jeblairwe will not accept contributions that only exist to facilitate them20:17
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ttxok, then I'll approve this now based on current approvals20:18
mordredjeblair: ++20:18
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ttxlooking forward to the discussion on watering down the language there (or not)20:18
russellbwe're efficient in this new year20:18
ttx#topic Remove containers from Nova's mission20:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Remove containers from Nova's mission (Meeting topic: tc)"20:19
ttxMoar fun20:19
russellball kinds of agreeing20:19
purprussellb: was just noticing that. =]20:19
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/25644020:19
mordredthere's tons of good feedback on this one20:19
ttxThe discussion is still ongoing on this one20:19
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ttxMost seem to agree that containers are a second-class citizen in Nova, so the mission could omit them20:19
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mordredwhich has made me want to circle back around and try to express the intent before hacking on wording20:19
ttxBUT most seem also to agree that support for containers should stay in Nova20:19
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ttxSo the discussion is now around what changing the mission would actually result in.20:19
mordredI don't think I ever wanted to suggest deleting them20:19
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mordredit's pluggable, you can do whatever20:19
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russellbjust not the primary intent of the API20:20
mordredbut making it clear that nova's purpose in life is not to be a docker/kube competing container management/orchestration system, but rather a system that shines as infrastructure on which to run things like kube and swarm20:20
russellbmaking it a primary target implies lots of stuff that could/should be done, so makes sense to change it to me20:20
mordredrussellb: exactly20:20
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mordredI do not believe what is currently written in this expresses that clearly20:20
mesterymordred: ++ to what you're saying there20:21
russellbnice to see all the good feedback20:21
mordredand to the concern in the comments, I think if we do it _right_ it's a positive message to the container ecosystem, not a "openstack doesn't care about containers"20:21
ttxmordred: agree that putting containers on the same level as VM in the current mission was a bit misleading20:21
dhellmannon a procedural note, how do we get the nova team to sign off on the change, since they're not pushing it?20:21
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ttxdhellmann: ptl +120:21
lifelessdhellmann: ask them ?20:21
ttxalthough in theory we can just push it20:21
sdaguewell, there is a lot of nova core feedback on the change already20:22
mordredI think getting nova ptl happy is important20:22
ttxI'd rather have them agree with the mission they have :)20:22
dhellmannsdague : enough, though?20:22
sdaguedhellmann: it's mostly negative20:22
jbrycei think the “run a kernel/image/look like a server” delineation coming from the earlier position around defcore is really important. containers can sometimes look like a server—a unit of infrastructure—but more and more are used as the application unit vs an infrastructure unit and i think that kind of usage is what fits poorly with nova20:22
dhellmannsdague : how many nova core +1 do we need to feel comfortable that the team has had a chance to consider the change?20:22
mordredjbryce: ++20:22
devanandamordred: no, I jbryce ++20:22
dhellmannsdague , ttx: I don't think the ptl is enough20:22
russellbdhellmann: i'd say leave that to the PTL to ensure before he signs off20:23
devanandawoops. typo20:23
bauzasI don't really see a consensus on removing that20:23
russellbmeaning, trust the PTL to gather the team's consensus20:23
purprussellb ++20:23
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sdagueright, so what about just truncating the mission statement20:23
sdagueTo implement services and associated libraries to provide massively scalable, on demand, self service access to compute resources.20:23
jbrycetreating containers in ways that look like a server makes some sense under the nova api and i think people will continue to have some use cases for that. treating a container in the way that kubernetes does for instance makes no sense in nova land to me20:24
sdagueand stop calling out the tech20:24
russellbjbryce: agreed20:24
jbrycesdague: i think “compute resource” is not quite specific enough, thought, and leads to some of the confusion20:24
dansmithsdague: FWIW, I think calling out the specific layer is important20:24
dansmithjbryce: agreed20:24
russellbyeah, i think some more detail is useful here20:24
jbrycesdague: a kubernetes container construct is about a differently abstracted type of compute resource20:24
dansmithTBH, I don't really want baremetal to be in the scope as stated20:24
sdaguesure, and I don't disagree with that20:24
devanandadansmith: calling out the specific tech is only adding confusion, esp. as the tech (and how its used) changes20:25
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jbrycehence why i (clunkily) was saying infrastructure unit of compute vs application unit of compute20:25
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dansmithdevananda: well, I disagree :)20:25
jbrycedon’t know that i have the best terms myself, but when i’ve talked with people about the issue that seems to be where things start to get confusing20:25
mordreddansmith: right. but I think _that_ is a different conversatoin tbh - I was trying to keep this specifically about "things that can run kernels" vs " things that can't"20:25
sdaguebut I also think that this sentences is the wrong place to slice all that20:25
mordreddansmith: since the bare metal conversation is on murkier lines and needs to also be sorted out20:25
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devanandadansmith: unless you think nova should be about virtualization -- and nothing else?20:25
sdagueI mean look at the mission statements from other projects20:25
sdague"To implement services and associated libraries to provide on-demand,20:25
sdague    scalable, and technology-agnostic network abstraction."20:25
russellbheh, yeah, that's pretty broad20:26
dansmithmordred: yeah I just would hate someone to expect us to adopt another baremetal driver peer to ironic on the grounds that it's in here. But, agree it can be a different convo20:26
ttxIt's an aspiration, not a description20:26
mordreddansmith: I also agree with that - that would be hella yuck20:26
mesterySomething to strive for20:26
markmcclainmission: boil the ocean20:26
ttxthe goal, not the status20:26
devanandadansmith: I agree with your concern there too20:26
mesterysdague: I really like your truncated mission statement from above.20:27
ttxmordred: so it looks like you need to have another take at wording and come back another week ?20:27
mordredoh yeah20:27
sdaguebecause I think that what gets done in a project  at the end of the day is based on a shared understanding in that project20:27
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mordredsdague: it is - BUT - nova is special and important tbh20:27
ttxand then we need to revive the feedback loop from Nova people20:27
dansmithsdague: we do have a mission statement in nova itself, so should this just say "do what nova considers to be its mission" ?20:27
mordredin that people outside the project need to understand its boundries more so than with the other projects20:28
sdagueand in reality, I think there is a general shared understand in Nova right now that this is mostly about Virt, and some other things that can expose to look at it a bit, when they make sense.20:28
bauzasI know that johnthetubaguy is pushing hard for describing feature classification, it would probably help the discussion20:28
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dansmithbauzas: still, johnthetubaguy has said on that review that he favors things that run a kernel, so I think he's still on board with tightening20:28
bauzasI mean, we have some feature capabilities that need to be accepted by drivers, others that would not be fine for some features look not good for Nova mission20:28
sdaguebauzas: yeh, that's a long road to get there20:28
mordredthing is - I tihnk this isn't just about the nova team - largely because the nova team thinks it's just about virt - but consumers want a compute api that can give vms and bare metal - so if nova is just a virt layer, we might need to grow a compute consolidation layer that  has nova and ironic backends20:29
mordredand I think that's a very big kind of decision20:29
ttxAlso not totally sold on this change being a natural consequence of the previous position on byok20:29
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mordreddansmith: ++20:29
edleafettx: +120:29
cdentmordred: I think that's somewhat true. I also think people want to sometimes choose a container20:29
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mesterymordred: That would be a much larger decision20:29
bauzasdansmith: yeah, I agree with that position20:29
lifelessmission statements are largely for not-the-team IMO20:30
cdentnot coordination thereof, just booting one20:30
lifelessthey are a coordination and communication thing20:30
ttxIt's a welcome clarification on what the priority is, not a natural consequence of byok20:30
jbrycemordred: i agree completely20:30
bauzasour hypervisor support matrix already provide some way to explain what a nova driver should implement20:30
mordredcdent: I have heard people say tht they've heard people want that, but I haven't experienced many people actually wanting that - as evidenced by how historically nobody has ever cared about the lxc driver that's been there for 6 years20:30
devanandaso it seems there are two parallel ways of looking at this: is Nova only about virt (or also baremetal or containers or other tech)  vs. is Nova about "computers" or "units of compute"20:30
bauzasthat comes to a far larger scope20:31
ttxmordred: yeah, I don't expect fat (infra-unit) containers to stay a thing for long20:31
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mordredme either20:31
purplifeless: Having struggled with how to explain the reasoning for a DefCore decision, I tend to agree ... but they need to be crisp enough to help the team think, too.20:31
devanandaas jbryce said earlier, the way many folks use containers does not fit well with Nova as it is today -- and I think that's perfecty fine20:32
lifelesspurp: certainly, yes.20:32
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mordreddevananda: ++20:32
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devanandaand I think it's worth the TC making a statement about that20:32
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sdagueI guess I'm not seeing that urgency, personally. We had one confused product team at Oracle that did a thing we didn't like. We've clarified that.20:33
ttxOK, I propose we continue the debate on the review until at least next week. I suspect mordred might push a new rev20:33
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annegentlesdague: I think that's where I am also. Project team missions are their missions.20:33
sdagueI think it's ok that we react to things that people do that we don't like by telling them so20:34
dansmithannegentle: +1, and since the TC one currently disagrees with nova's stated one, there should be a fix20:34
sdaguenot by trying to preemptively imagine all possible failures and protect against them20:34
annegentledansmith: patch the nova repo you mean?20:34
mordredsdague: I agree - it's not urgent. however, I think it is important to start a conversatoin about the vm/baremetal/conatiner intent more broadly than nova-core, becuase I think more than any other team this particular topic is super far-reaching in terms of openstack as  awhole20:34
dansmithannegentle: no, patch the TC one20:34
devanandaI'd also like to see some clarification from the nova team as to whether they view Nova as specific to virtualization technologies, since that has come up a few times in this discussion20:34
annegentledansmith: ah ok then yep20:35
devanandamordred: ++20:35
dansmithannegentle: nova has a documented mission, and if the TC one conflicts, then change the TC one (or loosen to remove the conflict)20:35
devanandathis topic has significant implications for workload scheduling across projects20:35
jbrycesdague: i can see not requiring a new policy to be adopted, but i think discussing these and working through the issues is actually very valuable20:35
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dansmithmordred: who are you calling an awhole?20:35
devanandathat is one of, if not, my main interest in it right now20:35
mordreddansmith: who am I not? :)20:35
dansmithmordred: touche.20:35
annegentledansmith: snort20:35
ttxalright, let's move on20:35
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ttxnext topic!20:36
mordredif the nova team thinks one thing for the future of openstack, and the tc thinks a different thing - we need to dig in to that and figure out it - so consider this mainly just an opening to the conversation20:36
purpsdague: I'd argue it's useful to clarify now to lend more guidance/direction so that future folks don't go so far astray.20:36
annegentleit's a valuable conversation and needs lots of talk lots of places :)20:36
mordredannegentle: ++20:36
ttxand a discussion we'll continue soon !20:36
ttx#topic Cross-project spec rubberstamp: Add clouds.yaml support specification20:36
*** openstack changes topic to "Cross-project spec rubberstamp: Add clouds.yaml support specification (Meeting topic: tc)"20:36
annegentlethanks jbryce for insights also20:36
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sdaguepurp: I will be massively surprised if 1 paragraph in a yaml file prevents people from going astray20:36
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/23671220:36
ttxannegentle posted a few questions and asked for clarification, not much answers on this one20:36
sdagueafter many dozen person to person conversations did not20:37
purpsdague: True, but it's also the transcripts of these discussions and the review comments that get used as guidance.20:37
ttxmordred: ETOOMANYREVIEWS20:37
mordredttx: inorite?20:37
ttxMaybe simpler to wait ?20:37
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ttxunless you feel you can answer live to Anne20:37
annegentlettx: should I follow up on any of the projects to research their current state?20:37
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annegentleor maybe mordred knows what to do with them :)20:38
mordredannegentle: new projects should implement cli's as plugins to openstackclient20:38
annegentlemordred: yeah, that sounds right to me20:38
mordredannegentle: existing projects ... I'm working on making patches for all of them :)20:38
mordredI mostly wrote this so I wouldn't have to explain why I was writing patches for everyone 100 times20:38
ttxannegentle: so do we need another rev or are you good with that one ?20:39
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annegentlemordred: I still need a line for "what do newish projects do?"20:40
mordredI'll rev20:40
annegentlemordred: thanks20:40
ttxalright, let's push it back20:40
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ttx#topic Cross-project spec rubberstamp: Backwards compat for libraries and clients20:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Cross-project spec rubberstamp: Backwards compat for libraries and clients (Meeting topic: tc)"20:40
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/22615720:40
mordredyay this one isn't me!!!20:40
ttxarh nothing like a last-minute -120:40
* ttx reads20:40
lifelessmriedem: so, the dependency mgmt spec covered the issues with capping20:41
lifelessmriedem: I really don't want to revisit that *again*20:41
lifelessmriedem: not when its already a spec, and nothing has changed to make capping better20:41
mriedemi don't really have that spec in my head atm20:41
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mriedemthere have been things which have made capping less painful20:42
mriedemwhich i've pointed out several times before20:42
ttxlifeless: if you end up doing another rev, maybe leave the tag details to the tag definition discussion, as I suggested. But don't do a rev just for that20:42
lifelessttx: I think I need to, because release-constraints won't be static - it will change as libraries do point releases20:43
lifelessttx: I didn't add that back in after adding stable branches-stay-a-thing-in post summit discussion, and mriedem noticed (thanks!)20:44
ttxlifeless: ok. Maybe that one was not that ready for rubberstamping after all20:44
ttxlet's push it back to the drawing board for a bit ?20:44
lifelessttx: well, it did previously have mriedem 's +1, so who knew :/20:44
ttxit's the 2016 mriedem20:44
mriedemwell, it's a big spec, and we were hashing it over again in irc today20:44
mriedemi've never been crazy about this honestly20:44
mriedembut i've gotten tired of fighting it20:45
dansmithyeah, there was a big discussion on IRC today,20:45
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dansmithwhich seemed to open a lot of significant concerns20:45
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dansmithfrom myself, the stable PTL, and the oslo PTL20:45
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lifelessmriedem: I think the point we disagree on is whether capping works20:45
dansmithso I don't think acting like mriedem is crazy is appropriate here20:45
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ttxbetter now than after we approve the spec :)20:45
lifelessdansmith: noone is acting like mriedem is crazy, are they ?20:45
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mriedemi get that capping sucks, but it's sucked for a reason many times in the past (icehouse and juno are fresh in my mind), and a lot of those reasons have been improved20:45
dansmithlifeless: the language used above is kinda rude and not very welcoming to discussion, yeah20:46
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lifelessdansmith: thanks for letting me know, though I really can't see that. He had voted, we moved to rubber stamp, and then a problem was found (excellent!) and we're discussing it more20:46
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ttxI for one welcome the extra discussion. We need to get those things right20:47
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lifelessdansmith: I kinda feel like you're escalting in the worst possible way what I'm typing on IRC today20:47
mriedemi've always thought this was weird from a packaging perspective20:47
dansmithTBH, I hadn't had a chance to read this spec before the large discussion today, so I haven't commented on it,20:47
dansmithbut it seems like there are some implications or procedures that need to get worked out20:47
lifelessanyhow, procedure wise, this is not ready for TC rubber-stamp20:47
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lifelessso lets let the meeting proceed, and folk interested in this can go to openstack-dev probably as the most relevant place, and we can discuss further20:48
ttxWe may have to schedule it again for cross-project discussion if necessary20:48
ttxlifeless: agreed20:48
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ttx#topic Open discussion20:48
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:48
ttx* "Upstream development" track at the Austin OpenStack Summit20:48
ttxOver the holidays came the good news that we'll have an "Upstream development" track at the Austin Summit20:48
ttxIt's something I suggested a couple of months ago so that we can clearly have upstream-developer-targeted presentations20:48
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ttxwithout artificially using cross-project workshop space just to raise developer awareness on specific topics20:48
annegentlettx: remind me, which direction is that?20:49
ttxIt shall happen on the Monday in Austin, with Design Summit starting on Tuesday20:49
annegentlettx: ah ok20:49
ttxThings I expect to fit in this track are:20:49
ttxgeneral communication about development process changes20:49
ttxnew features in a central project that need adoption in other projects20:49
ttxpresent corner use cases that may need support from development20:49
ttxdeveloper-oriented infra talks20:49
ttxdevelopment best practices, lightning talks on cool tricks20:49
ttxthings we abused other tracks for in the past, with varying success20:50
ttxI'll need a couple of co-chairs for this track. I suspect everyone is interested, but I only need a few, so only raise your hand if you *really* want to be part of it :)20:50
ttxquestions on that ?20:50
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russellbi like it :)20:50
russellbthat's not a question, though.20:50
jeblairrussellb: do you like it?20:50
mesteryVery good idea (also not a question)20:50
russellbjeblair: i do!  thanks for asking!20:50
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sdaguemight be worth a brain storming session on the stuff we'd like to see in there, and rounding up volunteers20:51
ttx(NB: we still have "project updates" as a track for developers to present new features to operators/endusers)20:51
dhellmannsdague : ++20:51
ttxsdague: yes, before the deadline20:51
sdaguettx: yep20:51
ttxsdague: I'll take the action of organizing that20:51
ttx#action ttx to set up a brainstorming about what the TC would like to see on the upstream dev track20:52
purpn00b question: what does a co-chair do to help organize a track?20:52
ttxsdague: I think I'd like to have a lightning talk slot on cool tricks20:52
ttxpurp:  vote on proposed talks20:52
purpttx ... and ... ?20:53
ttxin this case I expect the co-chairs to reflect the consensus from the TC20:53
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sdaguettx: can we make sure those are recorded as well?20:53
* purp doesn't believe anything is that simple. ;D20:53
ttxpurp: make the final selection in the summit org interface ?20:53
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ttxsdague: they should all be20:53
jbrycesdague: recording with as well? upstream track or lightning talks?20:53
edleafepurp: trust us! :)20:54
ttxjbryce: both I suspect... but everything would have a presentation format and benefit from our crazy AV support20:54
sdaguejbryce: upstream track20:54
purpedleafe: you forget, I *know* you.20:54
jbryceupstream track will be recorded by default, lightning talks, may or may not be depending on where they end up20:54
sdagueok, great20:54
ttxjbryce: they would end up in a traditional presentation slot/room20:54
jbryceunless you’re saying a lightning talk slot in the upstream track itself20:54
jbrycettx: ahh, then yes20:54
ttx* N/O naming20:55
ttxmordred: I've seen the poll results. Did you already push ordered candidate names to Lauren, or should I ?20:55
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ttxI kind of expect Newton to end up encumbered. Olimpic may also be an issue, given the IOC strongarmed enforcement of trademark. We'll see20:55
mordredI have pushed them to lauren/foundation staff20:55
jbrycettx: if you want them separated out by video, let us know when you decide on a lightning talk slot because we’ll have to adjust the video set up for that20:55
annegentlettx: heh I was still parsing N/O20:55
jbrycewe’ve sent them to the trademark lawyers for review20:55
jbrycewaiting for feedback20:55
mordredI kinda want newton to win so that we can get back at apple for stepping on swift20:55
jeblairsadly NO name is NO go20:56
mordredbut that's maybe not a good official position :)20:56
edleafemordred: I don't think they'd be crying too much20:56
ttxAnything else, anyone ?20:56
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ttxhmm, sounds like a no20:57
ttxAlright then...20:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jan  5 20:58:29 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-01-05-20.01.html20:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-01-05-20.01.txt20:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-01-05-20.01.log.html20:58
ttxThanks everyone!20:58
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