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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Gerrit is going to be restarted because is not processing new changes | 09:05 | |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: No jobs are being processed by gerrit and zuul . We are working to solve the problem, please be aware that no changes have been sent to the queue in the last hour, so you will need to recheck jobs for that period. | 09:20 | |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Zuul and gerrit are working normally now. Please recheck any jobs that may have been affected by this failure. | 09:49 | |
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| dhellmann | #startmeeting releaseteam | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Apr 15 14:00:20 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dhellmann. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'releaseteam' | 14:00 |
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| dhellmann | courtesy ping for ttx, dims, lifeless | 14:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 14:00 |
| dhellmann | our agenda is at the bottom of https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-release-tracking | 14:00 |
| dhellmann | #topic release postmortem review | 14:01 |
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| dhellmann | I've started copying some of the actionable items from the postmortem over to the newton planning document | 14:02 |
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| dhellmann | I've annotated those where appropriate | 14:02 |
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| dhellmann | the merge-release-tags job failures are pretty straightforward, so I don't know that we need to discuss those | 14:02 |
| dhellmann | we should try to think about ways to mitigate the fact that we only run the release process for most projects twice a month | 14:03 |
| dhellmann | maybe now that we have the release-test repo we can do the test work the week before each milestone/deadline? | 14:03 |
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| ttx | hm | 14:04 |
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| dhellmann | we can take that as it comes, if we change fewer things maybe it won't be as necessary | 14:05 |
| dhellmann | though I expect we'll want to test the final release process | 14:05 |
| ttx | It's tricky. We should I think determine what code paths in the automation only run on release day | 14:05 |
| ttx | and apply extra testing / care to that | 14:06 |
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| ttx | But as we are still changing things it's difficult to tell now | 14:06 |
| dhellmann | right. I'm not sure we actually have that many parts of the code that *only* run on the final release | 14:06 |
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| dhellmann | there's the announcement email thing, but if we're going to turn those off for milestone projects that will be a new change | 14:07 |
| ttx | code paths is not the right term | 14:07 |
| dhellmann | we'll want to test that when we make the change :-) | 14:07 |
| dhellmann | process paths? | 14:07 |
| ttx | It's just taht we want things to behave slightly differently on release day | 14:07 |
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| ttx | like announcements | 14:07 |
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| dhellmann | right | 14:08 |
| ttx | or at least we need to think about it | 14:08 |
| ttx | maybe it's ok to have separate emails announcing on release day | 14:08 |
| dhellmann | I've been making notes in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-relmgt-plan for a while | 14:08 |
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| ttx | but I just didn't expect them so early | 14:08 |
| ttx | Also difficultt o judge the result from a test repo | 14:08 |
| dhellmann | yeah, it's tricky to coordinate the timing of those automatic emails with the press release | 14:08 |
| ttx | FOr example we didn't spot the "only rc1..release" stuff | 14:09 |
| dhellmann | yeah, that result makes sense but it's not what we want | 14:10 |
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| ttx | So short of running a dry-run with copies of repos and alternate email addresses for destination... | 14:11 |
| ttx | it's actually tricky to spot all the potential issues | 14:11 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 14:11 |
| ttx | food for thoughts | 14:11 |
| ttx | nothing urgent | 14:11 |
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| dhellmann | I'm not sure what the "Master Sample config" item means, can you elaborate on that one? | 14:12 |
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| dhellmann | is that just that because we're doing post-versioning the version of master hasn't actually changed yet? | 14:12 |
| ttx | so yeah, it's a variant on the "colliding versions" between stable and master | 14:12 |
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| dhellmann | ok, that should be sorted out when we tag the first milestone | 14:12 |
| ttx | Our response to that was that it shouldn't collide, since you pick a branch and stay there | 14:12 |
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| ttx | BUT the pbr version also appears elsewhere | 14:13 |
| ttx | like in sample config and doc versioning | 14:13 |
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| dhellmann | I suppose we could have projects tag an a0 or b0 version if they want | 14:13 |
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| ttx | so for master it ends up showing 13.0.1.dev187 instead of 14.0.0.dev187 | 14:13 |
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| ttx | You can read the logs of the discussion with sdague | 14:14 |
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| ttx | he was the one who brought the issue up | 14:14 |
| dhellmann | ok, I'll do that later | 14:14 |
| ttx | yes, it will fall into place when b1 is tagged | 14:14 |
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| ttx | but that may be another reason to do early a0 tagging | 14:14 |
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| sdague | right, this is about things like docs which we publish per commit, and start diverging within weeks of the release, but look like they are explaining the stable branch, which they aren't | 14:15 |
| dhellmann | yeah, maybe we should add a step to tag something on master with an alpha tag to raise that version # | 14:15 |
| sdague | yeh, that could work | 14:16 |
| ttx | and would also solve the issue for packagers in the same go | 14:16 |
| sdague | I'm open to any possible solutions, just raised the issue | 14:16 |
| ttx | might be worth the hassle | 14:16 |
| ttx | sdague: it's good, we oversaw that issue (focused on the colliding versioned tarballs) | 14:16 |
| dhellmann | we would want a commit that's on master but not on the new stable branch, so we would need a way to determine that when the branch is created | 14:16 |
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| ttx | hmm | 14:17 |
| dhellmann | sdague : thanks for raising it | 14:17 |
| ttx | yeah, that was the issue | 14:17 |
| ttx | I remember now | 14:17 |
| ttx | we had to push setup.cfg bump as the very first commit in master | 14:17 |
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| ttx | and then create stable from the /previous/ commit | 14:17 |
| ttx | craeted a bit of a painful window | 14:17 |
| dhellmann | yeah, switching everything to post-versioning was to avoid having to do that dance | 14:17 |
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| ttx | the new model didn't require any commit | 14:18 |
| dhellmann | right | 14:18 |
| dhellmann | so we can stage the alpha commit at any point after the branch is created, when the project has a new commit of some sort | 14:18 |
| ttx | now we would require a commit, which would generate a conflict version, and then tag | 14:18 |
| ttx | a bit dirty | 14:18 |
| dhellmann | it wouldn't be a problem if we just plan to fix it retroactively | 14:19 |
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| dhellmann | we could go back now and find the commit that landed in master right after the branch and tag that | 14:19 |
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| ttx | sure but we'd still generate at least one conflicting/wrong version | 14:19 |
| dhellmann | for newton, we just encourage liaisons to do that right after we branch | 14:19 |
| dhellmann | to shorten the window | 14:20 |
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| ttx | so we shorten the window but don't eliminate it | 14:20 |
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| dhellmann | we also move it to a time before the final release | 14:20 |
| dhellmann | so that by the time the release comes, master and the branch have different versions already | 14:20 |
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| ttx | hmm | 14:20 |
| ttx | makes me think | 14:21 |
| dhellmann | yeah, we should discuss this more at the summit | 14:21 |
| ttx | when we branch post-RC1... what does pbr generate for master versions ? | 14:21 |
| ttx | 0rc1.dev1234 | 14:21 |
| ttx | ? | 14:21 |
| dhellmann | something like that, I think | 14:22 |
| ttx | or 13.0.1.dev123 | 14:22 |
| ttx | anyway, yes we need to revisit that one | 14:22 |
| dhellmann | I'd have to go test that | 14:22 |
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| dhellmann | yep, noted for summit work session | 14:22 |
| dhellmann | moving on? | 14:22 |
| ttx | with more neurons | 14:22 |
| ttx | yes | 14:22 |
| dhellmann | "During the release process once master is unfrozen, master u-c and g-r may have either bot proposed or from others updates with library versions cut from stable" | 14:22 |
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| ttx | that was from dims | 14:23 |
| ttx | not sure what he had in mind there | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | this time around I resisted updating constraints to put mitaka updates into the master test environment | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | late in the game he convinced me that was a bad idea | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | so I think next time we just need to remember that it's ok to approve those constraint changes | 14:24 |
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| ttx | oh ok | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | same for the next one, "Once the release announce email is sent, we can start processing pending release requests from master etc." | 14:24 |
| ttx | yeah | 14:24 |
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| dhellmann | I thought it would be better to just focus on mitaka, and not do any newton releases during the mitaka release week | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | maybe we can be less strict with that | 14:24 |
| ttx | yeah, it's more "if we can" | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | right | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | "Project teams that were aggressively backporting fixes clogged up the review lists so we didn't know which things were critical to land and which were not." | 14:25 |
| ttx | yeah, not sure how to fix that | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | that was mostly an issue with the neutron team, but some others did, too | 14:25 |
| ttx | It's true that it doesn't facilitate our work | 14:25 |
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| ttx | two options | 14:25 |
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| ttx | commuinicatinbg that backports should not be proposed unless critical | 14:26 |
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| ttx | or | 14:26 |
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| dhellmann | if we encourage them to WIP the changes they can still backport and we can filter those out of what we look at | 14:26 |
| ttx | forget about that and let PTLs do stuff | 14:26 |
| * dims back | 14:26 | |
| dhellmann | letting the PTLs deal with it on their own is also a good option | 14:26 |
| ttx | currently we use teh pre-release ACL to reduce approval to PTL+us | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | trying to track all of the projects was a lot of effort, and I'd like to distribute that more | 14:26 |
| ttx | I ended up reviewing most of the changes to check that the change was in master | 14:26 |
| ttx | some PTLs also just waited for our approval and pinged us | 14:27 |
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| ttx | we couls remove ourselves from the preocess, give the pre-release acl top the release liaison and giev them the guidance | 14:27 |
| * ttx topes | 14:27 | |
| ttx | typos | 14:27 |
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| dhellmann | pushing that review work back on the PTL/core team would also solve the issue we identified with infra of not wanting to have to make acl changes as part of the release process | 14:28 |
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| ttx | well, you would still have an ACL issue | 14:28 |
| ttx | PTL/core is different from stable | 14:28 |
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| dhellmann | ah, true | 14:28 |
| ttx | and I kinda like to put the release liaison on the critical path | 14:29 |
| dhellmann | clarkb suggested creating a new group and changing its membership. I sort of like that, if we can automate the setup. | 14:29 |
| ttx | because they check FFEs and all | 14:29 |
| dhellmann | if we have foo-newton groups for all projects, we can start them out with us, PTL, liaisons and then eventually add the foo-stable group | 14:29 |
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| ttx | so... | 14:29 |
| dhellmann | that's a lot more gerrit groups, though, so I don't know if we want to do that | 14:29 |
| ttx | wouldn't be an issue if we had kept proposed/* | 14:29 |
| ttx | but we didn't | 14:30 |
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| ttx | ACLs cover stable/*, we can't have them target stable/latest | 14:30 |
| dhellmann | I suppose resurrecting that is another option to consider | 14:30 |
| ttx | but yeah, we can brainstorm | 14:30 |
| dhellmann | sure we can, we just have to replace the * with the series name, right? | 14:30 |
| ttx | how do you do that without updating the acl ? | 14:31 |
| dhellmann | we could add those acls at any point, which would remove the project-config patch from the critical path for making the release happen | 14:31 |
| dhellmann | which would at least be a timing improvement over what we have now | 14:31 |
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| ttx | oh sure, you can create the acl in adva,ce | 14:32 |
| ttx | you still need to remove it postrelease though | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | I guess we couldn't do it in one place, though, since it would be a team-specific group | 14:32 |
| ttx | I was surprised how many people asked for it just after release | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | hmm, I thought we would just change the members | 14:32 |
| ttx | Ah. You would create different groups for stable/newton, stable/ocata | 14:33 |
| dhellmann | right | 14:33 |
| ttx | and leave them all in the acl | 14:33 |
| dhellmann | yeah, or clean them up when we delete old branches | 14:33 |
| ttx | and/or consolidate once per cycle | 14:33 |
| ttx | when you add the new one | 14:33 |
| dhellmann | sure | 14:33 |
| ttx | yeah, that sounds doable | 14:33 |
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| dhellmann | ok, more for the summit discussion | 14:33 |
| ttx | one level of indirection | 14:33 |
| dhellmann | "Communication with PTLs and Liaisons was spotty for the entire cycle." | 14:34 |
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| dhellmann | I have no good ideas here, aside from stressing that everyone needs to actually figure out how to read a lot of email. | 14:34 |
| dhellmann | this will be a topic of discussion for the fishbowl session, for sure | 14:34 |
| ttx | frankly... given the number of PTLs who didn't read my design summit scheduling emails... I don't know what to do | 14:35 |
| dhellmann | the other thing I'm going to do is discourage you from chasing folks down | 14:35 |
| ttx | Over the last days I had about 6 of them asking me how they can edit the titles on their sessions | 14:35 |
| EmilienM | ttx: that is something that could be addressed during a TC meeting | 14:35 |
| ttx | EmilienM: how ? By throwing out of the tent projects that have PTLs that won't read their emails ? | 14:36 |
| EmilienM | it's part of PTL's duty to take care of scheduling sessions | 14:36 |
| EmilienM | I don't know :( | 14:36 |
| ttx | The problem is that email is stateless notification. You don't have a list of standing items to process and check them one by one | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | I want folks to come to rely on the weekly countdown emails for reminders and notices, so we can avoid doing lots of 1:1 discussions. We need to figure out how to train people to read those. :-/ | 14:37 |
| ttx | For that you need a task tracking system | 14:37 |
| ttx | one that would be part of your daily workflow | 14:37 |
| ttx | I think we are paying the fact that we don't have a good solution for task tracking today | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | interesting insight, maybe that's what's missing -- copy the emails to your task system | 14:38 |
| ttx | and we trained PTLS to ignore Launchpad/StoryBoard/.whatever | 14:38 |
| ttx | at least as a work organization tool | 14:38 |
| dhellmann | maybe we should experiment with something like trello | 14:38 |
| EmilienM | mhh we tried in puppet group | 14:38 |
| EmilienM | lot of people don't want to create an account | 14:38 |
| dhellmann | that might help with another issue I noted, which was that keeping track of all of the state of all projects for RCs was a lot of manual work | 14:38 |
| ttx | (FWIW it's the same with the periodic jobs failure, you want them to go in a queue and get processed by someone) | 14:39 |
| ttx | email is good for discussion, not for deadlines/ work notification | 14:39 |
| dhellmann | EmilienM : that's not going to be an acceptable excuse for whatever we decide to use | 14:39 |
| ttx | unless you specifically set up specific folders and use them for task tracking | 14:39 |
| EmilienM | dhellmann: right. | 14:39 |
| dhellmann | ttx: yeah, I put task emails into evernote, myself | 14:40 |
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| ttx | I do use inbox 0 / action folder and process them all, but I realize I'm a bit special | 14:40 |
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| ttx | some people just go one week in vacation and just mark as read the 1500 emails when they come back | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | would it make sense to do something like trello, or try to figure out a way to use launchpad? | 14:41 |
| ttx | some/most | 14:41 |
| EmilienM | ttx: same ;-) | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | maybe we can brainstorm more by the summit | 14:41 |
| EmilienM | we have the trello/storyboard/launchpad discussion at every summit | 14:41 |
| ttx | dhellmann: we need to think about something, because no amount of email/blog communication will cut it | 14:42 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I like your insight that we need a task tracker | 14:42 |
| ttx | you want to be able to put work on the PTLs/liaisons queue | 14:42 |
| ttx | we have no way to do that | 14:42 |
| ttx | the only way is to ping them and put the work in their face (several times) | 14:42 |
| ttx | which does not scale | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | I also need a good way to visually see status, and I don't think launchpad is a good answer for that, though I've seen some tools for copying LP to trello | 14:43 |
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| ttx | Storyboard has boards now | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | I've never been able to figure out how to use storyboard, it surprises me too often | 14:43 |
| ttx | anyway, also not a one-hour discussion ;) | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 14:43 |
| *** mrunge is now known as m\runge | 14:43 | |
| dhellmann | #topic Release model tag changes | 14:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Release model tag changes (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 14:44 | |
| EmilienM | o/ | 14:44 |
| ttx | In the meantime we can continue with the current set of tools, but we won't have 100% success until we switch to something else entirely | 14:44 |
| dhellmann | I wrote up the release:cycle-trailing tag, and most of the deployment tool folks seemed to like it | 14:44 |
| ttx | yeah, that sounds reasonable | 14:44 |
| dhellmann | #link https://review.openstack.org/306037 | 14:44 |
| ttx | still a bit fuzzy on what is the release and what is trailing it | 14:44 |
| EmilienM | that's a very good proposal | 14:44 |
| dhellmann | I picked 2 weeks out of the air, so I'm willing to change it if we like a different number better | 14:45 |
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| ttx | I still would prefer to make it clear that the "release" is the thing that was out, and we have trailing projects | 14:45 |
| dhellmann | I figured being generous with the upper bound was a good way to start | 14:45 |
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| ttx | we could still display them on the same page though | 14:45 |
| dhellmann | yeah, we'll need to update the releases.o.o page to separate these projects out into their own section | 14:45 |
| dhellmann | right | 14:45 |
| ttx | I just don't want people to visit the page on mitaka release day and then one week later and see new projects added | 14:46 |
| ttx | but if it's clear that those are trailing projects, it's fine | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | it looks like there are a few more tag changes, so I'll go review those | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | the one for adding the managed tag to congress may take some thought | 14:46 |
| ttx | so, non-related to trailing are: | 14:46 |
| ttx | Change magnum deliverables release tags https://review.openstack.org/300828 | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | I don't want to just add managed projects until we see that they're actually participating and their liaison is active | 14:47 |
| ttx | I guess the magnum one is ok | 14:47 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I'm happy with that one | 14:47 |
| ttx | we still don't have a good story to display something that went from independent to intermediary though | 14:48 |
| ttx | so we can either figure the display out, or retroactively add them to previous releases | 14:48 |
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| ttx | for the same reason I explained above I would rather not rewrite history | 14:49 |
| ttx | although it's less of an issue for libs | 14:49 |
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| dhellmann | I thought we might try adding project pages to combine all of the deliverables for a given project, so maybe we can address the model change there | 14:49 |
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| dhellmann | so we would leave the deliverable files as they are, and add more rendering views | 14:49 |
| ttx | I would add an entry to the independent file taht would explain and point to the new thing | 14:49 |
| dhellmann | that's a good idea, too | 14:50 |
| ttx | i.e. next versions are tied to the cycle, see there | 14:50 |
| ttx | because that's the only place that would look funny | 14:50 |
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| ttx | anyway, approving this one | 14:50 |
| EmilienM | can we talk about the puppet one please? | 14:50 |
| EmilienM | #link https://review.openstack.org/297382 | 14:50 |
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| dhellmann | EmilienM : you don't want to use the trailing model? | 14:51 |
| EmilienM | I think we can follow release:cycle-with-intermediary | 14:51 |
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| EmilienM | we don't need 2 weeks more | 14:51 |
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| dhellmann | what benefit do you see of going with c-w-i instead of c-t? | 14:51 |
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| EmilienM | and if in 6 months we realize it was a mistake, we'll propose a change. But for Mitaka, we did it 1 week before. | 14:52 |
| dhellmann | you don't have to wait the 2 weeks for a release, you know | 14:52 |
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| dhellmann | well, we would actually prefer that you not change models a lot, because as ttx was just pointing out it causes issues reporting what is going into a project | 14:52 |
| dhellmann | s/project/release | 14:52 |
| EmilienM | there is no benefit, it's just our group/project is able to make releases on time | 14:52 |
| dhellmann | ttx: what if we put the release model in the deliverable file to make the rendering easier? | 14:53 |
| EmilienM | but I don't mind using trailing model. | 14:53 |
| ttx | EmilienM: let's wait for the end of the trailing discussion, maybe it will evolve one way or another | 14:53 |
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| EmilienM | okay | 14:53 |
| dhellmann | EmilienM : ok, I think we'd prefer all deployment tools to use the trailing model for consistency, but this is new so I don't want to force anything | 14:53 |
| ttx | If it ends up describing packaging things, you might want to be displayed in that category | 14:53 |
| dhellmann | right | 14:54 |
| ttx | dhellmann: we mighy want to bake that in the tag description | 14:54 |
| * EmilienM will wait | 14:54 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: we actually don't want random things to be trailing | 14:54 |
| ttx | only things that package other stuff | 14:54 |
| dhellmann | I thought I did cover that somewhat | 14:54 |
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| dhellmann | I didn't want to say "only packaging" but i did say most projects shouldn't use it | 14:54 |
| ttx | It's a bit between a type: and a release: thing | 14:54 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, that's why I tried to express why it might be used, rather than the types of projects that should use it | 14:55 |
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| odyssey4me | that makes some sense, and yeah - perhaps it should describe specifically that the tag is primarily designed for packaging and deployment projects | 14:55 |
| ttx | I like that those would all appear in their own section | 14:55 |
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| odyssey4me | ttx I was thinking about that earlier today, and I think I agree | 14:55 |
| dhellmann | we group by type tags now, IIRC, so we can do that easily | 14:56 |
| ttx | and sections are type-driven currently (pages are model-driven) | 14:56 |
| ttx | the problem is that "trailing" can be milestones-driven or intermediary-driven | 14:56 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I was trying to avoid having 2 separate tags | 14:57 |
| ttx | and the model doesn't describe that | 14:57 |
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| ttx | We could propose it as a type tag that influences how the model operates | 14:57 |
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| dhellmann | that was the original proposal, but we agreed having a separate model entirely would be simpler for explaining what the difference was | 14:57 |
| dhellmann | we put all of the cycle based things on the cycle pages, regardless of their actual model | 14:58 |
| dhellmann | and we split that by type | 14:58 |
| ttx | i.e. introduce the type and then explain in each model how the type changes the model | 14:58 |
| odyssey4me | perhaps the 'type: deployment' and 'type:packaging' tags could inform the way the release cycle is applied? | 14:58 |
| ttx | that would still be a single tag | 14:58 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: but it means we have a bunch of exceptions in all of the model tags | 14:58 |
| ttx | yeah, just brainstorming out loud | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | it also means we're not giving ourselves flexibility if we have another type that needs this model | 14:59 |
| ttx | depends if we need to track the distinction between with-milestones and with-intermediary in trailing | 14:59 |
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| ttx | I fear we need to | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | we could say that projects can combine cycle-trailing and cycle-with-* to indicate which of the latter they use | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | I'm not sure we do, it's just a matter of how important they consider those milestone deadlines, right? | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | and what version types they use? | 15:00 |
| ttx | hmm | 15:00 |
| ttx | yeah, guess os | 15:00 |
| ttx | so | 15:00 |
| ttx | oh well, out of time | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | ah, ok | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | we can move to #openstack-release | 15:00 |
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| dhellmann | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 15:00 | |
| ttx | yep | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Apr 15 15:00:52 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/releaseteam/2016/releaseteam.2016-04-15-14.00.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/releaseteam/2016/releaseteam.2016-04-15-14.00.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/releaseteam/2016/releaseteam.2016-04-15-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
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