Tuesday, 2016-05-31

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hongbin#startmeeting higgins03:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 31 03:00:03 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.03:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.03:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: higgins)"03:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'higgins'03:00
hongbin#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Higgins#Agenda_for_2016-05-31_0300_UTC Today's agenda03:00
hongbin#topic Roll Call03:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: higgins)"03:00
yuanyingOTSUKA, Yuanying03:00
madhuriMadhuri Kumari03:00
NamrataNamrata Sitlani03:00
yanyanhuhi, yanyan hu03:00
haiwei_xuhaiwei, hi03:00
adiskyhi, aditi03:01
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hongbinThanks for joining hte meeting yuanying madhuri Namrata yanyanhu haiwei_ adisky eliqiao03:02
hongbinPause a few more minutes for potential participants03:02
hongbinhey shu-mutou03:03
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hongbinhey Qiming03:04
hongbin#topic Announcements03:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: higgins)"03:04
hongbinI have no annoucement03:04
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hongbinAnyone else has annoucement?03:04
hongbinflwang1: hey03:04
Qimingannouncement: flwang1 joined03:05
hongbin#topic Review Action Items03:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: higgins)"03:05
hongbinQiming: :)03:05
flwang1Qiming: :)03:05
hongbin1. Hongbin start a ML to discuss the container composition topic (DONE)03:05
hongbin#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/095833.html03:05
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hongbinFrom the ML, it looks we agree to revisit the idea later03:05
madhuriYes agree03:06
flwang1hongbin: as for that thread, i think Joshua mad a valid point03:06
hongbinflwang1: could you elaborate more?03:06
flwang1we need to define a vision for higgins03:07
hongbinYes, that is true03:07
hongbinI can tell you that I have a vision, everyone else has it too03:07
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hongbinSo we have a meeting to gather opinions03:07
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hongbinflwang1: you have any suggestion for that?03:08
hongbinlike actionable suggestion03:08
flwang1hongbin: i think we should define some basic features and advanced features03:08
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flwang1and create some small sub teams03:09
flwang1to investigate those advanced topics03:09
flwang1and report/propose in ML and with specs03:09
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flwang1IMHO, which can speed up our progress03:10
flwang1and to avoid duplication effort03:10
flwang1just my 2 cents03:10
hongbinFor basic features, I tried to define them in this meeting03:11
hongbinFor advanced features, I need to identify the list of features that needs to be discussed03:11
hongbinThen, discuss it one-by-one03:11
hongbin#action hongbin collect a list of advanced features03:12
hongbinflwang1: sounds good?03:12
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eliqiaoI have a basic question, what the archeture looks like for higgins? only higgins-api and higgins-cond?03:12
flwang1hongbin: good, thanks03:12
eliqiaoshould we run a agent on each host like nova does?03:12
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madhurieliqiao: Yes for now03:13
flwang1eliqiao: it's related to the scope, IMHO03:13
hongbineliqiao: I think yes03:13
hongbinLet's discuss it later in the agenda03:13
hongbinMaybe in hte open discussion03:14
hongbin2. hongbin start a ML to discuss container host management (DONE)03:14
hongbin#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/095833.html03:14
hongbinFor this one, it looks we agree to not expose host to end-users03:14
hongbinHowever, I think it is really up to operators03:15
hongbinEventually, operators need to tune the policy.json to decide which APIs to expose03:15
flwang1hongbin: yep, we do have host apis, but admin only03:15
hongbinOK, Le't make the host API default to admin only03:15
yanyanhuhongbin, that's reasonable03:16
hongbin#agreed make host api admin only by default03:16
hongbin#topic Project rename (shu-mutou)03:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Project rename (shu-mutou) (Meeting topic: higgins)"03:16
hongbinshu-mutou: could you propose the idea?03:16
hongbin#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/095746.html ML discussion03:16
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shu-mutouHow about "Gatling"? It's only association from Magnum. It's not used on both Launchpad and PYPI.03:17
madhuriWhat does Gatling mean?03:17
eliqiaomadhuri: a gun03:18
yanyanhumachine gun :)03:18
madhuriWe could have some more options and then have a voting03:18
hongbinshu-mutou: maybe you can explain a bit about why renaming is necessary?03:18
madhuriWhat do you guys think?03:18
shu-mutouNow, our project name on Launchpad and PYPI (=package name) is 'python-higgins', because 'higgins' is already used in other product.03:19
haiwei_the 'Gatling' word is not using by some business use?03:19
shu-mutouIt means 'python-higgins' is used for package name.03:20
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flwang1maybe we can  ask TC or foundation to get some legal support about the name03:20
shu-mutouhaiwei_: I'm not sure, but 'gatling' is not used in Launchpad and PYPI03:21
shu-mutouflwang1: yes. The naming 'python-higgins' is according to the guide for project naming as following. http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/creators.html#choosing-a-good-name-for-your-project It says, "Try 'python-' as a prefix if necessary".03:22
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QimingI'm not sure 'gatling' is a good option03:22
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haiwei_there is a test tool named gatling https://github.com/gatling/gatling03:23
Qimingbetter avoid some sensitive words in a project name03:23
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hongbinOK. Let's table this if we cannot think of a perfect name03:24
hongbin#action hongbin raise a ML to collect idea of project naming03:24
hongbin#topic Drive consensus on project scope03:24
*** openstack changes topic to "Drive consensus on project scope (Meeting topic: higgins)"03:24
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/container-management-service etherpad for collaborating on project requirements03:24
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hongbinIn the etherpad, at the bottom, there is a set of decision to make03:25
hongbinThat includes the basic features and advanced features03:25
hongbinIn the last meeting, we covered half of the list03:26
hongbinLet's start with what is left over03:26
hongbinTopic: Integration with Other OpenStack Project03:26
hongbinThere are a list of projects were mentioned as intergration candidates03:27
hongbin1. Nova03:27
hongbin2. Magnum03:27
hongbin3. Heat03:27
hongbin4. Neutron/Kuryr03:27
hongbin5. Cinder03:27
hongbin6. Glance03:27
hongbin7. Keystone03:27
hongbinFor me, we should start a project with minimum dependencies03:28
Qiming1, 4, 5, 6, 7 sound higher priority to me03:28
hongbinQiming: ack03:29
hongbinQiming: 6 is interesting03:29
Qiming2, 3, are more of higher level orchestration / management03:29
Qimingright, to start a container, you will need to provide an image somewhere03:29
Qimingthat "somewhere" in the openstack native way would be glance03:29
hongbinAn alternative is docker registry03:30
hongbinOH, we know we can host a private docker registry backed by swift03:30
madhuri4 is also a priority03:30
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hongbinFor glance, I know there is a drawback, which is that it cannot support layers of images03:30
eliqiaomaybe we chose swift which will be better than glance03:31
Qiminglayers of images ... is it a hard requirement?03:31
flwang1hongbin: yep, layered images is in review03:31
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* flwang1 is putting his glance hat03:31
hongbinNo, layer of images is not a hard requirement03:32
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hongbinflwang1: That is great03:32
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flwang1hongbin: i can take a look at that03:32
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Qiminglayered images sounds more like a docker-specific thing03:32
flwang1i mean from the higgins side03:32
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Qimingif we focus on providing a openstack native runtime support for containers, image layering is not that interesting, imho03:33
hongbinflwang1: right now, glance supports docker image?03:34
hongbinflwang1: if not, what is the timeline?03:34
flwang1hongbin: yes03:34
hongbinflwang1: do you have any link?03:34
hongbinoh, glare?03:35
flwang1hongbin: a good proof https://github.com/openstack/nova-docker#1-enable-the-driver-in-glances-configuration :D03:35
hongbin#link https://github.com/openstack/nova-docker#1-enable-the-driver-in-glances-configuration03:35
hongbinThen, I have no problem for glance03:35
flwang1hongbin: :) cool03:36
hongbinBack to the integration list, Qiming mentioned 1, 4, 5, 6, 703:36
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hongbinWhat are other opinions03:36
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flwang1hongbin: yep, i will take a look at the #6, Glance part03:36
hongbinflwang1: thx03:37
wang-jianmadhuri;: +103:37
madhuriIs Kuryr ready to be used?03:37
hongbinQiming: I think 1 could be optional at current stage03:37
madhuriAgree hongbin03:37
madhuriWe are implementing non-nested containers in first stage03:38
eliqiaowhat function will nova provide us?03:38
eliqiaocreate vm as higgins host?03:38
hongbinmadhuri: AFAIK, it is not stable yet03:38
madhuriHost to run containers03:38
yanyanhuactually, even for nested cases, we may no need talk to nova directly :)03:38
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yanyanhusome services can help us manage VMs easily I think03:39
madhuriHow yanyanhu ?03:39
yanyanhue.g. Heat as what magnum is doing03:39
Qimingso... we are not adopting nova-docker ?03:40
yanyanhuor Senlin03:40
hongbineliqiao: 1) container host, 2) compute API to call higgins03:40
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Qimingeliqiao, I'm thinking about scheduling03:40
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eliqiaoQiming: get it03:41
Qimingbut ... maybe we can start something simple stupid03:41
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flwang1hmm... i think Higgins is on the similar position like Ironic03:41
hongbinQiming: Use nova scheduler, higgins as a virt-driver?03:41
flwang1hongbin: yes, that's one of two ways03:41
Qimingyep, I think we may take nova-docker03:41
hongbinI think so, we are replacing nova-docker03:42
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hongbinHowever, I am not sure if it is a priority now03:42
madhuriBut container and vms have different use cases. So will nova-scheduler fit for us?03:42
Qimingon one hand, we keep nova-docker alive ... and higgins provide a simple naive driver for nova03:42
Qimingon the other hand, higgins is growing its own apis03:42
hongbinYes, we should support two APIs03:43
hongbin1. nova03:43
hongbin2. higgins native03:43
yanyanhumadhuri, so I guess leveraging those services can provide higgins an easier way to manage those VM which will be used as container host03:43
flwang1hongbin: yes, +1 for that03:43
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Qimingwe don't have a lot to do regarding #103:43
hongbinQiming: ack03:43
hongbinLet's call out each one03:44
hongbinFor #1, nova03:44
hongbinDo everyone agree this is a priority?03:44
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flwang1hongbin: it's03:44
madhuriYes scheduling is03:45
hongbinany opposing point of view?03:45
haiwei_not a priority currently I think03:45
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hongbinhaiwei_: could you elaborate a bit?03:45
haiwei_what is the thing you want if you want to do with Nova? scheduler?03:46
haiwei_or host?03:47
wang-jianMaybe we can focus on higgins own apis for now, and implement a simple sheduler03:47
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hongbinI guess the benefit is a single compute API for container/VM/baremetal03:47
madhurihongbin: I don't get it03:47
madhuriCould you please explain last point?03:48
hongbinmadhuri: launching vm/container/baremetal with a single API03:48
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madhuriWe are writing our own APIs03:48
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eliqiaocontainer and vm has different APIs, but how can we reuse nova API?03:48
madhurihongbin: From nova?03:48
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hongbinmadhuri: Ironic has its own API03:48
hongbinmadhuri: but it can be called by nova api03:48
hongbinmadhuri: Ironic API is a superset of nova API03:49
madhuriOk got it03:49
yanyanhuactually, there was a long discussion in ML about unified API interface for bare metal/VM/containers03:49
madhurihongbin: Thanks for the explanation03:49
yanyanhuhiggins will be part of it :)03:49
hongbinLet's table the nova03:49
hongbinWe can discuss it later03:49
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hongbin4. Kuryr/Neutron03:50
Qimingthat is interesting ... "container and VM has different APIs" ... is it a conclusion or a premise?03:50
eliqiaoQiming: permise03:50
hongbinQiming: I believe they do have different API, with a common set03:50
hongbincontainer and vm share some common features, but vary differently on each other03:51
Qimingeliqiao, if that premise is true, you don't need openstack at all, ;)03:51
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eliqiaoQiming: I agree that we can think higgins as Ironic03:52
flwang1eliqiao: cool, more guys are on the same page :D03:52
Qimingopenstack is irrelevant if you really need the unique features of containers (or more specifically, dockers)03:52
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Qiming+1, on that metaphor03:53
hongbinQiming: that is why we need to provide both APIs, higgins and nova03:53
Qimingyes, hongbin, totally agree03:53
madhuri+1 hongbin03:54
hongbinTHe prboem is which one is hte priority03:54
hongbinI guess both are needed03:54
yanyanhuthe common set?03:54
QimingIMHO, they are equally important03:54
hongbinBut we disagreed on which one we should focus right now03:54
hongbinQiming: Yes, maybe both are important03:54
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madhuriHiggins API is priority now03:55
Qimingcan we start with some use cases and work on some API design?03:55
madhurithe basic CRUD APIs03:55
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yanyanhumadhuri, that's for sure03:55
Qimingyes, basic CRUD03:55
flwang1Qiming: +1, re define core user case03:55
eliqiaoif I get the nova part correctlly, we may need to implement a virt-driver and put it to nova repo, right?03:56
madhuriWe have few mins left03:56
hongbin#agreed define core use cases for API design03:56
madhuriYes eliqiao03:56
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eliqiaoNova doesn't support 3rd part driver now.03:56
hongbin#topic Open Discussion03:56
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*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: higgins)"03:56
hongbinSorry, don't have time to cover other integrating projects yet03:57
eliqiaoand Nova is spec freeze this thursday03:57
yanyanhuhi, hongbin, just post some comments on your draft of announcement of higgins project03:57
madhuriAnyone tried setting up Higgins03:57
hongbinyanyanhu: will check that. thx03:57
yanyanhubut they are just suggestion :)03:57
madhuriWe need it to pace up the work03:57
eliqiaomadhuri: yes, I did03:57
madhuriDB part is not yet ready I guess03:57
madhurieliqiao: What were your observation?03:58
hongbinmadhuri: The API part is not ready as well03:58
madhuriYes I will be working on it to have a running Higgins03:58
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eliqiaowe have devstack plugin now03:58
madhuriIt's at highest priority now03:58
hongbinLast minute03:59
hongbinLet's wrap up03:59
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madhuriThanks everyone03:59
yanyanhuneed more eyes on this patch https://review.openstack.org/319143 I think03:59
hongbinAll, thanks for joining hte meeting. Hope to see you all in the next team meeting03:59
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yanyanhuit's important as well03:59
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"03:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 31 03:59:55 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)03:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/higgins/2016/higgins.2016-05-31-03.00.html03:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/higgins/2016/higgins.2016-05-31-03.00.txt03:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/higgins/2016/higgins.2016-05-31-03.00.log.html04:00
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Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 31 13:00:35 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
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Qiming#topic newton work items13:02
*** openstack changes topic to "newton work items (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:02
Qimingyanyan won't be able to join today duing family reasons13:02
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elynntempest api gate job is enabled13:02
Qiminggate job added and enabled as experimental, yes13:02
elynnin experimental queue13:03
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Qimingremoving line 6-713:03
elynnnegative tests are slow...13:03
Qimingevent show test is in, right?13:03
elynnI will continue negative tests during my part time.13:04
QimingI suggest we do finer granularity test for cluster actions13:04
Qimingone of the reasons we didn't document api using openapi is that we have many cluster actions, all on the same uri13:04
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elynnSo you suggest to test rest cluster actions?13:05
Qimingthose actions differ from each other regarding parameters, better test each and every of them because they are all different apis13:05
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Qimingyes, cluster_add_node cluster_del_node cluster_resize ... etc13:06
elynnOkay, I will work on them.13:06
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elynnDo we need to test all parameters?13:06
elynnfor each cluster action13:06
Qimingby the way, I spent quite some time rework the tempest test cases13:07
elynnI saw that, you move some functions to util.py13:07
Qimingseparating util functions out; and use setUp and addCleanup for test case preparation13:07
elynnThanks for doing that!13:07
QimingI don't get the idea of doing resource_setup classmethod calls13:08
Qimingit is very cumbersome to do cls.profile = ... then later reference it as self.profile13:08
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elynnYes, I thought it's weird...13:09
QimingI think adding new ones would be much easier now13:09
elynnMost of them are classmethod...13:09
elynnThanks for that job13:09
QimingI started trying on a few of them and it worked, so I extended the revision to all tests13:09
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QimingI have removed some validations after api triggering13:10
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Qimingbecause they were making the api test impure, i.e. making them more like functional tests13:10
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elynnSaw that too, some of tests are using two or more API in one test.13:11
Qimingonce the whole collection of api tests are in place, we may want to make the gate voting13:11
elynnI will follow your mofication to add new tests.13:11
Qimingor, maybe we can enable it now13:11
elynnOkay, I will submit a patch to enable it later :)13:12
Qiminglixinhui_, there?13:12
lixinhui_Yes, Qiming13:12
Qiminghi, any news from stess tests?13:12
lixinhui_Sorry, Qiming13:12
Qiminggood news is that #138453 is in13:13
lixinhui_We are stilling focus to intergate the Senlin with VIO 2.513:13
Qimingnow we can add some more rally tests when yanyan gets cycles13:13
lixinhui_but I am thinking to delay it13:13
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Qimingokay, let's switch to that later13:14
Qiminghealth management ... no progress last week13:14
lixinhui_not really13:14
lixinhui_I am thinking13:14
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Qimingi have refactored the health_manager code last week, to make room for event listener13:15
lixinhui_to use heat stack installing the linux ha13:15
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Qiminginto vm instances?13:15
lixinhui_is that a right way to think that?13:15
lixinhui_to help fencing13:15
Qimingthat is one option13:16
Qimingfencing has to be done on physical servers, which is beyond heat control13:16
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lixinhui_do we have other choice?13:16
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lixinhui_I know13:16
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lixinhui_just still need to install a agent in the vm13:17
lixinhui_for vm level control, right?13:17
QimingI have am impression that nova has some work on fencing interface, but cannot recall the details at the moment13:17
lixinhui_did get any info about that13:17
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lixinhui_did not13:17
Qiming... I am not a fan of installing things into VMs13:17
Qimingnot at this stage at least13:18
lixinhui_I see13:18
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lixinhui_so I am trying to know if any other choice13:18
Qimingour next topic on agenda will touch this topic13:18
lixinhui_go head13:18
Qimingno comment received on the senlin-ha-recover etherpad13:19
Qimingmoving on13:19
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Qimingno news about documentation last week, we have done api-ref migration I believe13:19
Qimingthe new site is up and looks great so far13:19
Qimingcontainer support13:20
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xuhaiwei__yes, i am working on adding docker driver13:20
Qimingsaw that, xuhaiwei__13:20
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xuhaiwei__need to get the ip from nova server13:21
Qiminglet's see if our driver work can help shape the API design of higgins13:21
Qimingyes, you will get that info13:21
xuhaiwei__currently I am concerning about one thing13:21
Qimingwhen node-create, or cluster-create is triggered13:21
Qimingthe profile will get those information filled in13:21
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xuhaiwei__that is Senlin supports two kinds of nodes, nova server and heat stack, heat stack node can contain more than one nova server13:22
Qimingit is like the region_name, scheduler_hints we fed to nova server13:22
Qimingthen we don't support specifying a heat stack cluster as the hosting cluster for containers13:22
Qimingthat is the easy, quick decision13:23
Qimingin the long run, I think we can re-enable heat stack clusters to play this role, provided it has a OS::Server output13:23
xuhaiwei__maybe for the first step, we care about nova server node only13:24
QimingI have an impression that a heat stack has a secret output attribute allowing to treat that stack as a nova server13:24
Qimingif you really need that, please dig it out13:24
Qimingas the first step, it is fine13:24
Qimingwill take a look at the driver code and think about it, ... how can we generalize that13:25
Qimingno progress on engine work13:25
xuhaiwei__In fact when I did the demo for the summit session, I used heat stack output directly to get the server's ip13:25
Qimingyes, it is possible13:25
xuhaiwei__it's convenient13:26
Qimingso long as we controle the heat template ... to ensure that the template has server ip in its output13:26
Qimingplease keep on exploring that13:26
xuhaiwei__yes, that's kind of forcing user to do it13:26
Qimingand feel free to call for discussions on details13:27
Qimingit is not generic, but still doable, :)13:27
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Qimingzaqar support, em ... I'm thinking if we can get some support from fei long on that13:27
Qimingthere have been a spec proposal13:28
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Qiminghaven't got time to catch up on the review history13:28
Qimingif you are interested in connecting the dots, that might be an interesting thread to follow13:29
Qimingmoving on13:29
Qimingthat is a big topic than I imagined13:29
Qimingso after reading the nova specs, I figured that we need to get oslo.versionedobject landed first13:30
Qimingall senlin db objects then can be represented as a versioned object13:30
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Qimingwe can isolate the db changes from senlin-engine/senlin-api, so in future, live upgrade of the service is possible13:31
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Qimingwhen working on that, I was also hoping that we can use o.vo to model API requests which should be versioned as well, and notifications, which needs version too13:32
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Qimingnotification's priority is higher than requests because we got requirements to notify other software what happened in senlin13:32
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Qimingthat is a key interface for integrating with existing software13:33
Qimingwill keep working on that in coming weeks13:33
Qimingso ... that's all from the agenda13:33
Qimingthe first topic13:34
Qimingwhile implementing the o.vo, there were two blockers ...13:35
Qimingcan share with you as experiences13:35
elynnThat's great!13:35
Qimingone is that many database are storing DateTime fields without time zone info13:35
Qimingincluding mysql13:35
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Qimingbut o.vo is forcing the DateTimeField to carry TZ info by default13:36
Qimingto solve this conflict, you can either turn off TZ in o.vo, or enable TZ at sqlalchemy layer13:36
QimingI chose the latter13:36
Qiminganother one is about obj_name, which was a column in the event table in senlin db13:37
Qimingbut o.vo VersionedObject has a obj_name method13:37
Qimingyes, the same name13:38
Qimingso we had to change to db schema to make things smooth13:38
Qimingthat is reason why we have version 5 of db migration13:38
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Qimingwe changed obj_id, obj_name, and obj_type to oid, oname and otype correspondingly13:39
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Qimingstill working on some complaints about some IDs not being UUID format13:39
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Qimingbut anyway, stricter checkings do help make the code stable13:39
Qiming#topic senlin cluster-do operation13:40
*** openstack changes topic to "senlin cluster-do operation (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:40
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Qimingduring a discussion with lixinhui_ and a long 4.5 hours meeting today with a customer13:40
QimingI'm feeling an urgent need to add the cluster_do operation to senlin-api13:40
xuhaiwei__what is it?13:41
Qimingin general, it is an API that allows users to do things they want on all or some specific nodes in a cluster (focus on nova server cluster now)13:41
QimingI'm thinking of three layers of "things to do" at the moment13:42
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Qiminglayer one: operations exposed by the backend drivers, thus implementable in senlin profiles13:42
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Qiminge.g. nova evacuate, nova reboot, nova shelf, ...13:43
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Qimingthese operations are specific to a profile type13:43
Qiminge.g. 'evacuate' only makes sense to nova servers13:43
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Qimingwe can augment senlin profile types by adding an 'operations' property that captures the operations a backend can understand13:44
Qimingthen a user can do this:13:44
Qimingsenlin cluster-do evacuate <cluster_id>13:44
Qimingsenlin cluster-do evacuate --role blue_region <cluster_id>13:45
xuhaiwei__sounds reasonable13:45
Qimingit is a batch operation you can perform on a cluster, and the operation logic is programmed into the profile type implementation13:45
Qiminglayer two: run some user specified scripts on a cluster (still nova cluster here)13:46
Qimingsenlin cluster-do --script <install_linux_ha.sh> <cluster_id>13:46
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Qimingsenlin can take the specified script and scp that code to each and every cluster node, and ssh to those nodes for execution13:47
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Qimingit is a generic logic, that can be used to run any shell scripts13:48
Qimingits function is comparable to the software-config and software-deployment, but with less constraints13:48
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Qiminglayer three: enable senlin to run a ansible playbook directly13:49
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Qimingsenlin cluster-do --playbook install_mysql_cluster.yml <cluster_id>13:50
Qimingbehind the scene, you can imagine, senlin is calling ansible to run the playbooks13:50
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lixinhui_very useful13:51
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Qimingthis is a measure to save those guys trapped by heat softwareconfig/deployments13:52
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Qimingwe have been working with them a long time ago to set up a multi-tiered enterprise application13:52
Qimingat least layer one and layer two will be useful for your use case, lixinhui_, right?13:53
lixinhui_to be honesty13:53
lixinhui_I wanna layer313:53
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lixinhui_or a super CLI13:53
lixinhui_you know13:54
lixinhui_install some agent13:54
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lixinhui_or remove some gent13:54
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Qimingyes, it would be very useful and very convenient to provision application HA13:54
QimingI have already tried to invoke ansible from a python program ... it works13:56
Qimingthough I need to figure out how to manage the keys13:56
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QimingI'm not a super fan of layer 3, to be honest13:56
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Qimingit sounds a wrapper to ansible, if users already have some ansible playbooks, they may want to use ansible directly13:57
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Qimingthe advantage of layer 3 ... is that with such an API, it can be exposed to horizon13:58
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Qiminga user can paste their playbook directly into the web page13:58
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Qimingor the link to the playbook to the web page, and click 'run', :)13:59
Qimingoh ... time's up13:59
Qiminghave to free the channel13:59
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lixinhui_okay, talk more tomorrow13:59
Qimingthanks for your time, guys, you are always good listeners, :D13:59
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Qiminggood night13:59
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 31 13:59:55 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:59
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openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-31-13.00.html13:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-31-13.00.txt14:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-31-13.00.log.html14:00
saggiyamamoto: Hi, how are you?14:00
saggiDid you come to the Smaug meeting? :)14:00
gsagiemy first official smaug IRC meeting..14:00
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gampelwelcome :)14:01
saggi#startmeeting smaug14:01
openstackMeeting started Tue May 31 14:01:05 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is saggi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:01
yuvalhello everybody :)14:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: smaug)"14:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'smaug'14:01
saggiAre we waiting for anyone?14:01
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gampelhi everyone14:01
yamamotosaggi: hi14:01
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saggi#topic news14:02
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saggiWe had an internal meeting earlier this week.14:03
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saggiWe are trying to use trello more14:03
saggiAlso every day at 09:00 UTC is happy hour at the #smaug channel.14:04
yuvalCurrently the Trello is organized by topics14:04
gsagiesaggi, yuval: Trello link14:04
zhonghua-leesaggi: could you please print the Trello link here14:04
saggiwhere you can get you patch boosted to the top of the core reviewer list just by showing up.14:04
xiangxinyongyeah. I update some bugs which need to be reviewed14:04
gsagie#link https://trello.com/invite/b/Sudr4fKT/826e3dcffc7259b1447d4ecc448c1a45/smaug14:05
zhonghua-leeyuval: thank you14:05
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yuvalFeel free to open cards in tasks you think need review14:05
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yuvalArchive tasks that are complete and requrie no further discussion or work14:05
xiangxinyongok. good rules14:06
yuvalIf someone is in need of admin priviliges for the Trello, tell me14:06
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saggiWe currently give priority in review to the Protection Service.14:06
xiangxinyongyuval: could you give me admin priviliges14:07
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xiangxinyongsaggi: yeah. protection service is very important14:08
gampeladditional update--> yuval and zhonghua-lee will propose a topic about smaug to openstack day in china14:08
yuvalchenying here?14:09
saggiI submitted the patch for the meeting change but it hasn't gotten merged yet. Hopefully this is the last week the guys from china need to stay up late. :)14:09
saggi#topic china openstack day14:09
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gampelplease share so we could vote14:09
saggiCould you elaborate on what you intend to do there?14:09
zhonghua-leegampel:but there still have some work to do14:10
gampelzhonghua-lee: yuval:  what topics are you planing to propose ?14:10
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zhonghua-leegampel: I am planning to present all the projects related protection that OpenStack have14:11
yuvalWe are proposing an introduction talk about Smaug. The intention is to give people idea what is smaug, how does it work, the difference and interface with other DR solutions14:11
zhonghua-leegampel: we may think it over14:12
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xiangxinyongArchitecture and high availability? may be this one14:12
zhonghua-leeyuval: yeah that's the important one14:12
xiangxinyongzhonghua-lee: :)14:12
zhonghua-leeyuval: especially the difference between Smaug and Freezer14:12
gampelxiangxinyong demo video  could be part of it14:13
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zhonghua-leexingxinyong:I think so, it should be part of the presentation14:14
xiangxinyonggampel: got iy14:14
xiangxinyonggot it.14:14
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saggi#topic full stack testing14:15
*** openstack changes topic to "full stack testing (Meeting topic: smaug)"14:15
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gampeli noticed it is failing, does any one know why ?14:16
saggiHow are the patches for $topic? We've got a important stuff being blocked on this.14:16
yuvalchenying not here?14:16
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zhonghua-leeyuval:he is connecting14:17
xiangxinyongthe failed reason is this patch.14:17
zhonghua-leeyuval: as far as I know :)14:17
xiangxinyongI research it and find the novnv should be removed from the ci14:18
gampelOk  i saw that patch from chenying14:19
saggiSo we're blocked on infra14:19
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saggiThere was also a patch with misc fixes that was supposed to be related.14:19
saggiI asked for it to be split to several logical bits.14:19
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gampelwe were just talking about the CI (fullstack)14:20
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saggichenying, what is preventing it from working?14:21
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chenying_This afternoon, zhangshua and chenpengzhi have test protent/delte full test OK14:22
chenying_Did they submit the patches?14:22
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gampelthat's great news so we have end to end with cinder volume ?14:22
yuvalWe have this patch, which should fix the noVNC issue. Please review and +1 it: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323316/14:22
saggiAs I said, I saw a huge patch of misc fixes. I asked for it to get split up.14:22
yuval(patch by xiangxinyong)14:23
chenying_jikins check have problom, xiangxinyong have submit a patch to fix it.14:23
chenying_As I said, I saw a huge patch of misc fixes. I asked for it to get split up.   Yes I am splitint up it.14:23
saggichenying, thanks!14:24
chenying_Yes I am spliting up the patch. I will submit it later.14:24
xiangxinyonghi guys, about the fullstack.14:24
xiangxinyongthese patches are merged by chenpengzi14:24
xiangxinyongthese patches are reviewing by zhangshuai14:25
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chenying_I have submited a patch about checkpoint delete. This flow works now.14:26
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saggiSo we just need to tie up a few loose threads and then it should all work14:27
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saggi#topic patch splitting14:28
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saggiI try and not be too strict about patches containing more than one fix14:28
saggiBut it's becoming harder and harder to review14:29
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saggiPlease make sure to take out parts of you patch that are unrelated to the core fix and can be submitted independently.14:29
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saggiIt also makes more patches require to be manually rebased14:30
yuvalMay I add: write commit messages14:30
gampelthe patch will be merged faster if it is small14:30
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chenying_I think so14:30
saggiSo try and get all the cleanups in a base patch and the complex logic in a patch on top of it14:30
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gampelwe have currently 32 open patch for review14:31
saggiIt will make things easier for everyone. Most of the time the base patches can just be merged and at least part of your change is now in master.14:31
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saggiIf you don't already know about `git add -p` and `git reset -p` I suggest you read the man page. It will help you split up patches once you are done with a fix.14:32
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xiangxinyongsaggi: thanks your guide14:33
saggigit is built to make this kind of stuff easy.14:33
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saggi#topic open discussion14:34
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: smaug)"14:34
saggiSince we already did a team meeting yesterday there isn't much coordination to do.14:35
saggiAnyone else anything they want to raise?14:35
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chenying_about the wiki and doc. saggi can you give a link to us?14:36
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saggi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Smaug14:36
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gampelwe need to add install Guide and maybe a tutorial how to use it14:37
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chenying_the api docment Can we need write like othe project such as cinder ?14:37
gampelyou mean in md file14:37
saggichenying: I can try and generate it from the swagger yaml14:37
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gampelsaggi: we could convert the swag to html14:38
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chenying_ install Guide and maybe a tutorial how to use it  I think I can do this work.14:38
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saggixiangxinyong, do you have time to work on the user guide?14:38
zhonghua-leechenying_:please add me in14:39
saggizhonghua-lee: Add you where?14:39
zhonghua-leesaggi: document work14:39
saggichenying, you can work on the install guide.14:39
saggior zhonghua-lee14:39
chenying_zhonghua-lee Do you have time to do this?14:40
zhonghua-leechenying_: let's work together14:40
chenying_we work together14:41
saggiDon't forget to add links to the wiki pages you make to the main wiki page.14:41
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saggianything else?14:42
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gampelI think we need html view of the API14:42
chenying_xiangxinyong I think we could plan to do integration testing with UI. what's your opinion?14:42
saggiI'll generate it from swagger14:42
saggiI should already have the tools installed14:42
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zhonghua-leechenying_: do you mean the manual test from UI?14:44
xiangxinyong456chenying: i think it is not most important at present.14:44
chenying_Net step I think most importent work is review. We need spent more time to review and get these patches marged ASAP.14:44
yuvalchenying_: I agre3e14:44
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xiangxinyong456we should stable our present function14:45
zengchenhi, guys, please review my two patch which are listed in the trello.14:45
saggiBTW, tomorrow I'll be available an hour early on IRC from 10:00-11:00 IST which I think is 15:00 in China and then I'll be gone for the rest of the day. So try and be there if there are stuff you want me to look at.14:46
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zengchensaggi:got it.14:47
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yuvalI'll be here all day, but on Thursday I'll be at the OpenStack Israel conference14:47
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saggiI'm going to try and be available for an hour or two the days I'm not working so that things don't get stuck but I need your help. Can't make any promises though. Finals month is next month :(14:48
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saggiOK, thanks everybody.14:48
xiangxinyong456thanks guy14:48
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"14:49
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 31 14:49:13 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:49
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-05-31-14.01.html14:49
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-05-31-14.01.txt14:49
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-05-31-14.01.log.html14:49
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sridhar_ram#startmeeting tacker16:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 31 16:00:53 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sridhar_ram. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tacker'16:00
sridhar_ram#topic Roll Call16:01
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sridhar_ramwho is here ?16:01
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sridhar_ramhowdy all ! Let's start...16:01
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sridhar_ram#topic Agenda16:01
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sridhar_ram#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Tacker#Meeting_May_31.2C_201616:02
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sridhar_ramanything else to discuss beyond this ?16:02
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sridhar_ramtwm2016: santoshk: hi16:02
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sridhar_ramBTW, going forward please suggest your agenda items few days before the meeting..16:03
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sridhar_ram#topic Annoucements16:03
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sridhar_ramWe are at Newton release milestone 1 (m1)16:03
tung_doansridhar_ram: any session for alarm-based monitoring driver today?16:03
sridhar_ram#link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html16:03
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: yes, we plan to discuss that .. important to get that going :)16:04
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sridhar_ramWhile we don't have a formal spec approval deadline, it is important to wrap up as many specs as possible within next couple of weeks.16:04
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sridhar_ramnext ..16:05
sridhar_ramI'd like to welcome Lin Hua Cheng as a core member in tacker-horizon project,16:05
sridhar_ram#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/096218.html16:05
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vishwanathjvery good addition to the tacker-horizon project....16:06
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sridhar_ramLin is a core member in the main horizon project. He has been our go to person for things related to UI dashboard in Tacker.16:06
sripriyacongrats lhcheng16:06
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vishwanathjlhcheng congrats16:06
sridhar_ramvishwanathj: indeed, thanks for introducing Lin to our team !16:06
santoshklhcheng congrats..16:06
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sridhar_ramI can imagine interesting UI additions for our upcoming features.. particularly VNFFG !16:07
natarajkCongrats lhcheng16:07
sridhar_rammoving on ..16:07
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sridhar_ram#topic Project Review Cadence16:07
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sridhar_ramcouple of mins on this last min topic..16:08
sridhar_ramWe have received few offline suggestions to improve our review response time in this project.16:08
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sridhar_ramThis is a valid request though the solution needs some collective effort.16:08
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sridhar_ramI'm open for ideas in this area..16:08
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sridhar_ramas I see from my side, first, we need more time from the Tacker core team dedicated to reviews.16:09
vishwanathjsridhar_ram are there are any metrics that you can share16:09
sridhar_ramSecond, the order in which patchsets are reviewed and merged.16:09
sridhar_ramOne tool available in this area is the review report from stackalytics,16:09
sridhar_ram#link http://stackalytics.com/report/reviews/tacker-group/open16:09
sridhar_ramKeep an eye on the ones that are 'starved' with high response times. My hope is to drive down the average wait times.16:10
vishwanathjthanks for the link16:10
sridhar_ramThird, perhaps more impactful one, is to increase the core team strength. I'm looking for opportunities to do this as we get more committed team members.16:10
sridhar_ramIf you are interested in working towards becoming a core team member in an openstack project, please do consider Tacker 8-)16:10
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sridhar_ramif you've other ideas, please drop a line.. thanks16:11
sridhar_rammoving on...16:11
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sridhar_ramlhcheng: welcome to Tacker core team!16:11
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lhchengall, thanks for all the support!16:12
KanagarajMi think if core team could spare little more time daily, eventaully review will come to normal rate16:12
janki91sridhar_ram: I am interested in contributing16:12
lhchengwould try my best to help :)16:12
KanagarajMlhcheng, congrats !16:12
tbhcongrats lhcheng16:12
janki91sridhar_ram: I do solve bugs, would like to contribute to a feature though16:13
vishwanathjthe core team that is small in number has done a great job.....have seen them review and merge over weekends as well16:13
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: yes, I'd encourage tacker-core team spend more time reviewing... i'm personally planning to time box some time everyday for reviewing.16:13
sridhar_ramvishwanathj: thanks!16:14
sridhar_ramlets move on...16:14
sridhar_ram#topic Spec progress round up16:14
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sridhar_ramjanki91: sure, absolutely !16:14
sridhar_ram#topic Resource Audit Logs16:14
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sridhar_ramthe new kid in the block..16:15
sridhar_ramvishwanathj: KanagarajM: can you guys give a quick update ?16:15
vishwanathjKanagarajM and I had a very productive discussion last week and this week.....16:15
vishwanathjwe now have a spec at a stage that is ready for review and feedback16:15
KanagarajMyeah, i really flet good dicussion and it helped to fine tune the spec16:16
sridhar_ramvishwanathj: cool, link please16:16
vishwanathjKanagarajM please feel free to chime in.....https://review.openstack.org/#/c/321370/16:16
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trozethi tacker team, joining late16:17
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: vishwanathj : great, thanks for getting this going16:17
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sridhar_ramtrozet: np, we are about to get to VNFFG soon..!16:17
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sridhar_ram#topic Networking-SFC driver16:18
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sridhar_ramVNFFG spec from trozet merged .. https://review.openstack.org/29219616:18
trozetthanks everyone reviews and getting it through16:18
trozetfor reviews*16:19
vishwanathjtrozet nice work16:19
sridhar_ramnow, we need to complete the food chain further down.. the networking-sfc driver..16:19
sridhar_ram#link https://review.openstack.org/29077116:19
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sridhar_rams3wong: can you give an update ?16:19
sridhar_ramis Louis is in the channel ?16:20
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sridhar_ramtrozet: did you had a chance to review this spec ?16:20
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trozetsridhar_ram: not the latest patch set, will do it today16:21
sridhar_ramtrozet: okay, thanks...!16:21
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sridhar_rams3wong: are you here ?16:22
sridhar_rami'll follow up w/ the networking-sfc team offline..16:22
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sridhar_ramlets move on...16:22
sridhar_ram#topic Alarm based monitoring16:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Alarm based monitoring (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:23
sridhar_ramtung_doan: can you give an update on your spec ?16:23
sridhar_ramtung_doan: are things clear from architecture, scope and work items for this spec .. ?16:23
tung_doansridhar_ram: I already update new patchset.. please see https://review.openstack.org/#/c/306562/9/specs/newton/alarm-based-monitoring-driver.rst16:24
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sridhar_ramokay.. we can spend rest of this meeting to talk about this spec and the related auto-scaling...16:24
tung_doanIn this spec, the alarm based monitoring should be generic framework16:25
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sridhar_ramlooking at the diagram at L45.. what you think the interface between the different components...16:26
tung_doansridhar: In real implemenntation, I will go with Ceilometer first16:26
sridhar_ramVNFM plugin <---> alarm-f/w <--> [Ceilometer, ...]16:26
sridhar_ramtung_doan: sounds good...16:27
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sridhar_ramquestion to tung_doan and team... does alarm-framework be a separate process taking to main tacker-server using RPCs ?16:27
sridhar_rams/be a/need to be a/16:28
sripriyasridhar_ram: that is what i have in mind as well16:28
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sripriyasridhar_ram: monitor/alarm should be a separate module of its own emitting events16:28
sridhar_ramsripriya: I see...16:28
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sridhar_ramtacker-server is already overloaded with lots of in-process threads16:29
KanagarajMi feel its better to split api and plugins over RPC16:29
sripriyasridhar_Ram: before all this, we need to extract our monitor monolithic file out of vm dir. and carve a module for this16:29
KanagarajMbut it might be BIG thing to go !16:29
sripriyasridhar_ram: i created a RFE to refactor it16:29
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: yes, we need to do that.. but exactly.. it is a BIG thing, perhaps for Ocata16:29
tung_doansridhar_ram: regrading to the intefarce, tacker monitoring driver can use Ceilometer alarm interface and Monaca alarm interface.. Once we go with Ceilomester, monasca is the same16:30
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, ok16:30
sridhar_ramhowever, we can be oppurtunistic and introduce some new features with that future decomposition in mind16:30
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KanagarajMtung_doan, only thing to abstact, while defining the TOSCA model for alarm based monitoring, better to keep it generic16:31
sridhar_ramfuture (Ocata) we could decompose to api , plugin and alarm/mon f/w in separate scalable processes16:31
KanagarajMtung_doan, instead of carrying the ceilometer jargan to it. b16:31
sripriyayes, +116:31
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, yes, that is good plan16:32
tung_doanKanagarajM: agree16:32
sridhar_ramnear term (Newton) tacker-server (api, pluging) and alarm-mon f/w process ..16:32
sridhar_ramis this doable ?16:32
sripriyatbh: ^^ VIM could be using this monitoring framework as well16:33
sridhar_rambobh_: ^^16:33
tbhsripriya, yes we can leverage to use this framework too16:34
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sridhar_ramtbh: sripriya: it could be a follow on .. but let's not add too much to tung_doan spec / scope !16:35
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram, yes, i feel its better to bring in the feature (alarm) then we could latter make into seprate process16:36
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sripriyasridhar_ram: yes, it need not be dependent, but just to keep in mind of how it could evolve16:36
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sridhar_ramsripriya: sure16:36
tbhsridhar_ram, no at present I am trying to check reachability only. But once we implement monitoring fw, we can leverage  VIM monitoring part, it won't disturb the spec I think16:37
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sridhar_ramtbh: sure, as a follow on..16:37
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: I'd like to hear your thoughts .. on separating alarm mon to separate process as part of your spec.16:38
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: you think it is better to bring-in this feature into the current monolithic tacker-server first and then break it out as a separate process ?16:38
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, yes, bec, IMO, when we bring the RPC in place, it would make it simple to impl16:39
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, so in O release, we easily make it. I hope :)16:40
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: okay...16:40
tung_doansridhar_ram: agree wuth KanagarajM16:40
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sridhar_ramsripriya: i know you are looking at refactoring tasks... does this sound reasonable ?16:40
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sripriyasridhar_ram: i would still hope to remove the actions out of monitor module as a day 0 refactoring just to get things started16:41
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sripriyasridhar_ram: we need not do a full fledged refactoring of monitor framework this cycle16:42
sripriyasridhar_ram: i will do take that ASAP16:42
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sridhar_ramsripriya: what you mean by "remove actions out of monitor module"16:43
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tung_doansridhar_ram: same question16:43
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sripriyasridhar_ram: i'm referring to log and respawn action logic that are in monitor file16:43
sripriyasridhar_ram: given scaling spec is coming in, scale out scale in can be other actions16:44
sridhar_ramsripriya: ah, you mean.. move them into say, separate files in our code tree ?16:44
sripriyasridhar_ram: it is better to have a separate interface for these actions than integrating them into our monitor fie16:44
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sridhar_ramsripriya: agree..16:44
sripriyasridhar_ram: thats correct, but i'm open to people' thoughts16:45
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sridhar_ramSo, the conclusion i'm hearing, atleast so far, is to bring in the "new features" like alarm-based mon, scaling using existing single process architecture...16:46
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sridhar_ram.. and then have a follow on specs to re-architecture tacker into decomposable / scalable function (api, plugin, mon)16:46
tung_doansridhar_ram: agree16:46
sridhar_ramperhaps we can start this re-arch work later half of newton and deliver it in O-release16:47
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: so, this means getting the correct interfaces between VNFM --> alarm-mon --> Ceilometer is important16:48
sridhar_ramplease review the latest alarm-mon spec from tung_doan with this discussion in mind..16:48
tung_doansridhar_ram: sure16:48
sridhar_rammoving on..16:48
sridhar_ram#topic Scaling16:48
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: before talking about Scaling...16:49
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: ... thank you so much for your contributions beyond Scaling... much appreciated !16:49
sripriyaa big +116:49
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram, thanks, i really like to work in tacker as technology and team :)16:50
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: :)16:50
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram, i am addressing your comments and having some questions asked16:50
KanagarajMsripriya, thanks :)16:50
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KanagarajMlike whether to giving caling per vdu or per VNFD?16:51
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: I had similar thoughts on VDU scaling vs VNF scaling...16:51
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sridhar_ramIf a VNF has only one VDU.. then mapping is trivial16:52
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KanagarajMyeah, but in other cases16:53
qwebirc81199Have we talked about containers and microservices yet?16:53
KanagarajMsonus, shall we go in phases16:53
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, now introduce the scaling at VDU level first16:53
sridhar_ramBTW, we need to nail the TOSCA portion of this spec...some scaling policies have "targets: [VDU1, VDU2, ...]16:53
KanagarajMand once its in place, then extend it to VNF16:53
sridhar_ramqwebirc81199: can you clarify your question please ?16:54
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, yeah i tried to go thru the NFV scaling part and it does like this,16:54
KanagarajMsridhar_ram and team, your suggestions16:55
* sridhar_ram notes 5 mins left...16:55
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: this question is specific to manual scaling, correct ?16:56
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram, no, in both manual & auto, it would applicable.16:57
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sridhar_ramokay... i think we can take this back to the gerrit review..16:57
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, sure.16:58
sridhar_ramTeam - please review the scaling spec...16:58
sridhar_rammoving on...16:58
sridhar_ram#topic Open Discussion16:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:58
KanagarajMok, i have a topic https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tacker-db16:58
KanagarajMi'm trying to optimze the db schema16:58
* sridhar_ram looking up...16:58
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KanagarajMas i felt its good to optimze now than latter..16:59
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: agree...16:59
sripriyaKanagarajM: very cool, yes.16:59
sridhar_ramtimes up folks..17:00
sridhar_ramthanks all for joining!17:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 31 17:00:24 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:00
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openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-31-16.00.html17:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-31-16.00.txt17:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-31-16.00.log.html17:00
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mmedvede#startmeeting third-party17:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 31 17:00:57 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mmedvede. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'17:01
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asselinhi mmedvede17:01
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mmedvedehi asselin17:01
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mmedvedenothing new on agenda for this week's meeting17:02
ja3howdy ho17:02
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ja3there must be an internet meme for that state of affairs, misha.17:02
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mmedvede#link meeting agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty17:03
mmedvedehey ja317:03
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ja3actually "nothing new on agenda" works well for me, I have to ditch in about 10 minutes17:04
mmedvede#topic CI Watch17:04
*** openstack changes topic to "CI Watch (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:04
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mmedvedeI did decide to rework the long patch series I have on unit-tests branch to address asselin 's comments and to simplify17:04
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mmedvedeI'd like to merge land patches without it becoming a long chain17:05
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asselinmmedvede, yeah saw a bunch of related e-mail this morning. Any specific reviews you need? +1 on landing smaller merges, if possible.17:06
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mmedvedeasselin: please give a quick look to this one, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/267980/17:06
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mmedvedeif you +1, I'll merge it17:06
mmedvedeso we get it moving17:07
asselinwill take a loook17:07
mmedvedethank you17:07
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mmedvede#topic Common-CI Solution17:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Common-CI Solution (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:08
mmedvedeI did not see anything new17:08
mmedvedeasselin: any updates?17:08
asselinseems stable now. saravana had issues on the mailing list, but no replies yet.17:09
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mmedvede#topic Open Discussion17:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:09
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ja3bob is starting to construct our dev CI using the latest upstream infra so we can converge prod CI to it17:10
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mmedvedeja3: are you using openstackci?17:10
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ja3I think that's his intent.  latest+greatest.17:11
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asselinanyone know what's going on with this patch? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/239810/17:12
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ja3not me17:12
mmedvedeasselin: no17:12
mmedvedelooks like it has not been updated lately17:12
asselinno...getting stalled since last -117:13
mmedvedeI wonder if the work should be split into bite-size pieces, like migrate single thing to common CI17:14
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ja3I have to drop, see you folks in 2 wks.17:14
mmedvedeI personally just deployed graphite/grafana17:14
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mmedvedeso I think it is useful for other operators17:14
mmedvedeja3, thanks for being here17:14
asselinmmedvede, yeah that's a good point. It is a bit too open-ended.17:15
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mmedvedeasselin: I did not have time to work on the spec, and probably would not have time in near future17:17
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asselinmmedvede, if you could add your comment ^^ I think that can help.17:18
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asselinadd to the patch17:18
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mmedvedebump it :)17:19
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mmedvedeasselin: also, I still think I need to remove the logstash/elastic search puppet that has landed in puppet-openstaci17:19
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mmedvedeand abandon the other patch that removes it from system-config17:20
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asselinmmedvede, why's that?17:20
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mmedvedeit was supposed to be an atomic change - as soon as it landed, it should have been removed from system-config17:20
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mmedvedenow there are two copies17:21
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mmedvedeand they have diverged a lot17:21
* asselin sighs17:21
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mmedvedein retrospect it should have been smaller change, not entire elk moved17:22
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asselinthere's 3 manifests17:23
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asselinso you'd prefer to do each separately?17:24
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mmedvedeif we still would move it. it needs to be smaller pieces17:25
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asselinok, maybe we should discuss with more folks. perhaps in the infra meeting?17:25
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mmedvedeI am checking agenda to see if there is a spot17:26
asselintoday's agenda is light. we can add it17:26
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mmedvedeasselin: I'll add it. thanks for bringing it up17:27
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mmedvedeI have another thing17:28
mmedvede(should have added to agenda)17:28
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mmedvedezuul-merge hangups17:28
mmedvedeI brought it up during another meeting last week17:28
mmedvedeand noone seemed to have seen the problem17:29
asselinI haven't seen it either....what's the issue?17:29
rcarrillocruzhey folks17:29
rcarrillocruzrandomly reading17:29
rcarrillocruzso, i chatted with pschwartz at the meeting17:30
mmedvedehi rcarrillocruz17:30
asselinrcarrillocruz, yeah ricky17:30
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rcarrillocruzhe told me he planned to get back to that spec17:30
rcarrillocruzto sort out -1s, etc17:30
rcarrillocruzhey asselin :-)17:30
rcarrillocruzto be fair, nibalizer comments are spot on17:31
rcarrillocruzi had same opinion and removed the server abstraction in a previous patchset17:31
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rcarrillocruzbut per yolanda's comment, i refused to get into that rabbit hole17:31
rcarrillocruzimho, server abstraction should be out of puppet-openstackci17:31
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rcarrillocruzthat should be a downstream thing17:31
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rcarrillocruzcreating an interface to server seems a bit unnecessary to me17:32
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mmedvedeI need to reread the spec. But what you are saying makes sense to me17:32
mmedvedeserver class should not be part of openstackci17:32
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mmedvedeserver setup is specific to each environment17:34
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mmedvedercarrillocruz: thanks for the update17:35
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mmedvedeasselin: on zuul-merger: git fetch is basically taking upwards 15 minutes to get changes off of review.o.o. Maybe you would not notice if you are not looking for it17:36
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mmedvedemy workaround so far is to detect the stall and to kill the ssh process that is hanging17:37
asselincbader, have you noticed this ^^ ?17:37
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asselini'll follow up with him later17:40
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mmedvedeI mentioned I'll get an email out once I have something tangible, nothing I can see so far. At least the workaround works17:41
mmedvedeasselin: thanks17:41
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mmedvedethis is all on zuul-merger topic17:41
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mmedvedeif nothing else to discuss, see you here in 2 weeks17:44
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mmedvedethank you for attending17:45
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:45
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 31 17:45:26 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:45
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-05-31-17.00.html17:45
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-05-31-17.00.txt17:45
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-05-31-17.00.log.html17:45
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asselinthanks mmedvede17:46
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notmorganlbragstad: it's not early.18:00
henrynashbig ben strikes....18:00
notmorganlbragstad: also.. congrats you're now on the hook for running the meeting18:00
notmorganlbragstad: :P18:00
* lbragstad slowly wanders towards the door18:01
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henrynashthe ‘ol “first person to ask who is running the meeting gets the job” approach18:01
notmorganajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, MaxPC, morgan, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tjcocozz, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek18:01
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ayoungwoo hoo18:02
ayoungnotmorgan, no jamielennox running it today?18:02
jamielennoxi'm here18:02
notmorganayoung: i'm not running it, just collecting people18:02
jamielennox#startmeeting keystone18:02
openstackMeeting started Tue May 31 18:02:52 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jamielennox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:02
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jamielennoxhey everybody18:03
jamielennoxquick reminder as with last week that the spec proposal freeze is this week18:03
rodrigodshi jamesmcarthur18:03
dolphmooh, damn, i have one to get up18:03
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jamielennoxhopefully there is nothing still outstanding that wants to get up this cycle18:04
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amakarovweek of new ideas: the new ideas growth is doubled this week :)18:04
jamielennox#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:04
jamielennox#topic Multiple datacenters18:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Multiple datacenters (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:05
jamielennoxagrebennikov, amakarov: all yours18:05
agrebennikovjamielennox, I guess we discussed it last week after meeting18:05
amakarovI've created a spec for ayoung patch (see etherpad ^)18:05
agrebennikovand ayoung's comment was "create a spec if you need it "18:05
agrebennikovamakarov, I believe it is there18:06
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ayoungdoes anyone really have a problem with a cloud admin being able to create a project with a specificID?18:06
amakarovagrebennikov: https://review.openstack.org/32349918:06
ayoungACKing that we would need a microversion anyway?18:06
notmorganayoung: no, not as a break-glass scenario as long as it conforms (uuid)18:06
amakarovayoung: I believe there were no complains in API v218:06
henrynashayoung: microversion spec approved!18:07
gyeedone done18:07
jamielennoxayoung: the only case i'm comfortable with is the restore a project so you can deleete its resources18:07
ayounghenrynash, we were pretty close to microversion compliant thus far anyway18:07
ayoungjamielennox, what about syncing two sites?18:07
jamielennoxpersonally i think that's a keystone-manage command but ok18:07
notmorganjamielennox: that would be the use-case imo. but you kindof open the door to lots of things.18:07
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shalehvanity IDs for one18:07
jamielennoxayoung: nope, there's a bunch of ways to do syncing that we shouldn't touch18:07
jamielennoxshaleh: nope18:07
notmorganjamielennox: and i am *ok* with the ability being added, not specific to where/how it makes it into the db.18:07
gyeein that case, why stop at project, why not ALL IDs?18:08
shalehjamielennox: not saying I support them :-)18:08
notmorgangyee: honestly, i think this is a case of backing away from the remove the row on delete18:08
amakarovso what are the objection?18:08
ayoungare we limiting it to projects ?18:08
notmorganin general18:08
jamielennoxgyee: exactly, currently projects is all that is required because they can LDAP backend the rest - but that's just the current pain point18:08
amakarovayoung: this is the current need18:08
notmorgangyee: but....18:08
ayoungnot users, .... roles  ... meh the ids for roles should be the role names18:08
notmorganok hold on18:09
ayounguuids are dumb there18:09
gyeejamielennox, I worry about consistency18:09
gyeespecial cases = magic18:09
notmorgan"restore" is off the table as part of this discussion right now18:09
jamielennoxnot sure why you can't LDAP backend the projects but whatever18:09
notmorganthis is the API need amakarov is asking for18:09
ayoungjamielennox, we killed that off18:09
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amakarovayoung: ++18:09
notmorganto have consistent ids across different deployments in keystone18:09
henrynashso let’s review the conceptual objection to this….since we now know of multiple requirements (which various of us may or may not think important)18:09
notmorganon that topic18:09
notmorganwhat is the feeling?18:10
notmorganthis is clearly an API change.18:10
ayoungwhat is the risk?18:10
gyeeI don't have a problem with it, I understand the objective, but the argument seem pretty weak18:10
henrynashI think the conceptual objection was to avoid collisions across clouds?18:10
notmorganhenrynash: no.18:10
ayoungI go to a remote system, create a project with a deliberate UUID, and the thing already exists...18:10
ayoungthat was probably deliberately done18:11
notmorganhenrynash: to have the same resources (projects, by id) in multiple deplyments18:11
ayoungcuz...uuid clash... not too likely18:11
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notmorganif a uuid collides18:11
jamielennoxnotmorgan: more i don't like the precendent of having different subsets of data present in different keystones18:11
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lbragstadthis allows for more than just making sure the same id exists in a single keystone - for that case wouldn't you just share the resource backend?18:11
notmorgani'll buy the next round of drinks for the entire keystone team at the summit18:11
gyeeif DB replication is not an options because 1) too expensive, 2) unreliable, and 3) error prone18:11
notmorganthe whole team. (everyone here)18:11
gyeethen lets say it in the spec18:11
ayoungnotmorgan, like I said,  its probably deliberate18:11
rodrigodsyou could be bolder notmorgan18:11
jamielennoxassuming that because you can create a project in another keystone that you can just use that keystone as if it was the original18:11
dstanekjamielennox: ++ that worries me18:11
jamielennoxit's not18:11
rodrigodseveryone in -meeting maybe18:12
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henrynashnotmorgan: that’s the specific requirement here….weve discused this on many occasions, but always felt uncomfortabtle…just trying to (re)flush out the ojections18:12
notmorganrodrigods: sure.18:12
jamielennoxit doesn't have the roles or any other information18:12
ayoungbut that could be done today with V218:12
jamielennoxdomains will suffer the same proble18:12
jamielennoxand it can be done today with either a custom backend or a working database sync18:12
ayoungjamielennox, I feel that your new role is the "I say no to things" person.18:12
notmorganayoung: someone has to do it18:13
jamielennoxbut i don't want keystone to figure out how to provide keystone sync-ing via PAI18:13
jamielennoxbecause i'm still not sure why project is special from other things that would need to be transfered to effective duplicate a keystone deployment18:13
gyeejamielennox, ++18:13
ayoungjamielennox, why not.  We really don't provide people with sufficient tools for K2K yet18:14
notmorganso specifically on this topic, there has been a lot of asking for this feature. because when a cloud has a new deployment they want to have the customer in the same project. and they don't sync keystones.18:14
notmorgani don't know if this is a usecase we need to solve?18:14
lbragstaddidn't we have an action item from the last meeting to see what about our federation implementation was preventing this?18:14
agrebennikovjamielennox, because users are the same in the backend, and roles are pretty static18:14
notmorganjamielennox: and roles are referenced by name, not id, outside of keystone.18:15
jamielennoxagrebennikov: "same backend"? why not put projects in this same backend that works?18:15
gyeelbragstad, right18:15
agrebennikovjamielennox, I'd love to have them in ldap!18:15
lbragstadgyee do you know if/where that list of short-comings is?18:15
jamielennoxnotmorgan: i don't understand your use case18:16
ayoungWith K2K, we need some form of sync.  And we need to map from local to remote.  THat could be done by naming, or could be done by ID18:16
gyeelbragstad, no, I was hoping to see them in the spec18:16
dstanekagrebennikov: you can't assume that users are in LDAP18:16
ayoungdstanek, why not?18:16
dstanekso jamielennox's question is valid...how is project different from other data18:16
ayoungprojects in LDAP was based on an assumption that is no longer valid18:16
jamielennoxagrebennikov: so do it :) we may not provide the backend upstream but there's nothing stopping you from doing what works for your case18:16
dstanekayoung: like it or not we still support other backends18:16
ayoungif we do resources in LDAP, we need to redesign, and I would not recommend that18:16
notmorganjamielennox: i'm just echoing what i've been asked for.18:16
ayoungdstanek, that is not the same thing18:17
agrebennikovdstanek, right, if they are not the rest of the stuff doesn't make any sense, since it will not be "clouds in sync" usecase18:17
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ayoungLDAP  users and groups  should not be tied to assignments in the LDAP backend18:17
jamielennoxnotmorgan: i mean i'm not understanding what's being asked for, 'customer in the same project' why does this involve preset uuids?18:17
notmorganjamielennox: oh hold on. customer HAVING the same uuid (project) for ease of access18:18
ayoungwe go out of our way to be hostile to users...UUIDs are not pleasant things to work with18:18
ayoungremember the whole Killer for dynamic policy?18:18
notmorganok so.18:18
ayoung"Don't make use add an endpoint, get the uuid, and stick that in the config fil"18:18
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notmorgani think this feature is asking for something that opens weird edge cases and doesn't solve them.18:19
ayoungnotmorgan, that was already open18:19
notmorganbasically there is nothing to prevent name collisions in domains if both are active.18:19
notmorganfor domains*18:19
notmorganyou have the same issues with domains.18:19
henrynashayoung: so although I wasn’t thinking about this use case, the spec I’m working on might help here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318605/418:19
notmorganyou have the same issues with user_ids.18:19
ayounghenrynash, yep18:20
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ayoungnotmorgan, I have the same issues with everything!18:20
notmorgani really don't think we can reliably say this is a good plan - creating specific ID'd resources across multiple installations that don't share the authoritative data backend18:20
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henrynashayoung: this would certainy allow project scopig without eitehr domain ID or project ID18:20
notmorganyou need far more syncronization than just project ids... to the level of "not something keystone should figure specifically" imo18:21
lbragstadnotmorgan that sounds like federation18:21
ayoungnotmorgan, you also need role assignments, etc18:21
dolphmi think the spec i want to post for newton will actually address this rather elegantly -- what's the spec proposal deadline exactly, end of week?18:21
ayoungyou can do it with out IDs.  Just not via K2K18:21
ayoungdolphm, yep18:21
notmorganlbragstad: federation would be the logical goal to solve this imo.18:21
henrynashso to pick up on ayoungs: point, what if you didn’t need to use projectIDs to auth…would that solve this use case?18:21
jamielennoxdolphm: yes18:22
ayoungdolphm, what's the gist of it?18:22
ayoungnotmorgan, then we need to seriously look at cleaning up the mapping mechanism18:22
agrebennikovnotmorgan, but is is allowed for users (since they may be inthe same backend), and All others Must be different. Or federation. No other options18:22
dolphmayoung: leverage shadow users and make the mapping engine way more powerful18:22
amakarovlbragstad: there is a place on Earth where peaple are killing eachother for that word18:22
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jamielennoxnotmorgan, lbragstad: federation is a difficult thing to set up here because you would need to map every project to every other project - and then assume things like horizon can make the jump18:22
jamielennoxit's not a transparent operation18:23
dstanekthat's what i think we are missing. that sort of project mapping.18:23
dolphmayoung: user presents keystone with a saml doc, keystone creates a shadow user, maybe creates a project, maybe even creates a role, then does a role assignment... all according to the mapping engine output18:23
gyeewe support project mapping today18:23
notmorgandolphm: that sound sreasonable18:23
notmorganat face value (i'd need to see more obviously)18:23
dstaneki think talking about this as a sync is going down the wrong path18:23
amakarovjamielennox: the strait-forward way is to allow usage of wildcards and aliases in mappings18:23
ayoungdolphm, so..in order to makethat manageable, we need to limit "this is what you canmap TO"18:24
lbragstaddolphm so building on our current mapping engine18:24
amakarovI'm not sure we want that )18:24
ayoungand make it so IdP admins can manage their own mapping files18:24
dolphmlbragstad: ++18:24
notmorganok so, going to call time box on this in 5 minutes.18:24
jamielennoxamakarov: yea, ew could improve the mapper to handle something like that properly i just don't think it will today18:24
henrynashayoung: we need that anyway, imho18:24
dolphmayoung: i'd like to see a stronger constraints around domains to manage that18:24
ayounghenrynash, ++18:24
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ayoungidp to domain associations18:24
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henrynashayoung: actually, i’ll raise a spec for that anyway18:25
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dolphmayoung: basically yes. so a domain admin is also free to manage a mapping18:25
ayoungthis idp can map to domain X,y,z butn not p,d,or q18:25
agrebennikovfolks, don't you think federation setup will dramatically slow down the process of authorization in production?18:25
notmorgangenerally speaking, as an API, I am against user-provided IDs.18:25
amakarovagrebennikov: ++18:25
ayoungagrebennikov, nope18:25
notmorganayoung, dolphm, henrynash: lets see what the federation spec looks like before we dive too far into it, but it sounds like an option18:25
dolphmnotmorgan: you don't love race conditions?18:25
dstanekamakarov: are you alredy solving your usecase and just looking to upstream the idea? or have you not started to do it yet?18:26
notmorgandolphm: hehe18:26
ayoungagrebennikov, look at the Federation via SSSD and Mod_lookup_+identity setup I did a few years ago18:26
ayoungno slower than LDAP, and much cleaner18:26
dolphmamakarov: your use case on the mailing list is exactly what i have in mind18:26
dstanekagrebennikov: it shouldn't18:26
amakarovdstanek: I'm sticking to upstream wherever possible18:26
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agrebennikovayoung, I mean if every time user tries to authorize in one cloud it has to call to remote keystone18:26
dolphms/wherever possible//18:27
dstanekamakarov: ok, was just going to see about any experiments you've done18:27
amakarovdolphm: thanks )18:27
dstanekagrebennikov: not authorize, just authenticate18:27
jamielennoxayoung: explain to me from before why you think you couldn't implent a custom LDAP resource backend?18:27
agrebennikovdstanek, we are talking about projects, rigth?18:27
ayoungjamielennox, OK, so when I first did LDAP Identity and Assignment were in a single backend18:27
notmorganamakarov: fwiw, this really sounds like db replication is the solution (or LDAP backend, or anything with replication)18:27
dstanekagrebennikov: once you have a token for the cloud you want to operate on you won't talk to the other keystone18:27
ayoungtoday, there would be no clean way to pull in users from federation etc via LDAP18:28
ayoungI mean, you could put it in LDAP, but it would be Keystone only data18:28
agrebennikovdstanek, but when you bring it to local keystone, does it have to verify the token against the remote one?18:28
ayoungand not have the role assignments, as those really should be in SQL18:28
jamielennoxnotmorgan: ++ to db replication, this stemmed from having problems doing reliable sync but i think something behind the scenes is still correct here18:28
amakarovnotmorgan: and db replication souns like an overkill :)18:28
dolphmayoung: the problem is that you want to manage user-specific authorization before there are users, right?18:28
ayoungamakarov, you can never have too much overkill18:29
notmorganamakarov: it provides consistency and a shared authoritative data store18:29
jamielennoxayoung: but for whatever reason they are not having to duplicate the assignments backend, just resources, so you could put that in LDAP ?18:29
agrebennikovnotmorgan, why do you always try to enforce third-party service to do the job which may be avoided? :)18:29
notmorganamakarov: allowing user-provided ids only solves a very small case and i am almost 100% sure you're going to need a lot more.18:29
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ayoungjamielennox, they would be aback asking for assignments once they realized....18:29
ayoungyou need the whole kit and kaboodle18:30
notmorganagrebennikov: because the NIH in openstack is strong.18:30
jamielennoxayoung: i'm pretty sure that's going to happen here anyway18:30
ayoungand it should not be in LDAP18:30
ayoungjamielennox, so...I like dolphm 's approach18:30
agrebennikovayoung, please, bring it back to ldap))18:30
ayoungor SQL sync18:30
ayoungagrebennikov, Nope.18:30
ayoungagrebennikov, not the right tool18:30
ayoungLDAP is general purpose data, not app specific18:30
jamielennoxdolphm's approach being allow the mapper to create projects on first access?18:31
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ayoungwhy is ldap replication any better than SQL replication?18:31
dolphmjamielennox: ++18:31
gyeeayoung, because LDAP data is "highly static"18:31
ayoungjamielennox, it also solves the long standing "autoprovisioning" feature request18:31
notmorganok we have other topics to cover18:31
jamielennoxdolphm: i like that - but it still wouldn't let you specify a static project id output right?18:31
notmorganwe should close up this one.18:31
dolphmjamielennox: first authN, or on an authN when the mapping produces a new result (new attribute in SAML, or new mapping rules)18:31
dstanekdolphm: would your approach deal with the project id issue so that users only have to know one?18:32
notmorganwe can circle back at the end.18:32
dolphmnotmorgan: ++ let me get this into a spec, and we can resume next week18:32
jamielennoxyea, ok, allow for evolution of mapping18:32
dolphmdstanek: yes, it could18:32
amakarovnotmorgan: what's the conclusion?18:32
notmorganso, in wrapping up18:32
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notmorganlets see what dolphm proposes18:32
dolphmamakarov: conclusion is i owe you a spec :P18:32
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notmorgani personally am against supporting this in the API, what do the other folks feel (temperature) wise on the user supplied ids?18:33
* amakarov writing down in a very special notebook "claim a spec from dolphm"18:33
notmorgan#action dolphm to write up federation spec for next week.18:33
jamielennoxi'm still -1 on the whole idea, i feel like you need only projects because of a very specific deployment setup18:33
jamielennoxto do this properly would require access to a whole lot more18:33
jamielennoxand i think the answer should be db replication, because you are actually trying to horizontally scale keystone18:34
notmorganayoung, henrynash, dstanek, shaleh, rodrigods, samueldmq ?18:34
agrebennikovyeah, give me my custom project IDs! :P18:34
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lbragstadi'm not a huge fan of user defined IDs because it can cause weird edge cases18:34
ayoungnotmorgan, meh18:34
rodrigodslbragstad, ++18:34
dstanekgenerally i'm -1 on this idea. it seems like it would open too many corner cases18:35
amakarovlast time it was OK as an admin-only action, no18:35
ayoungnotmorgan, I want them for other reasons, see no reason to feat them18:35
henrynashi remain skeptical of user defined IDs as well18:35
dolphmwhat is the reasoning behind avoiding DB replication? what's described on the agenda just sounds like a technical exercise rather than a use case18:35
agrebennikovyou man check they are unique18:35
henrynashdolphm: ++18:35
notmorgandolphm:  ok lets get an answer to that then close up the topic18:35
lbragstadbut if we can do it with something like the mapping engine and solve the auto-provisioning case that would be cool18:35
notmorganagrebennikov, amakarov^18:35
shalehnotmorgan: via the API, not so keen. As say a keystone-manage so it was ensure for admins for special purposes. Maybe.18:36
dolphm"Customer doesn't want to replicate databases between several geo-distributed datacenters" -- why not?18:36
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amakarovagrebennikov: ^18:36
notmorgandolphm: a low-volume of change, small dataset db.18:36
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notmorgandolphm: keystone with fernet isn't crazy changing data.18:36
* notmorgan narrows the case down a little18:37
dstanekdolphm: last week it was said that they had a sync issue and they killed the DBs in multiple datacenters18:37
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samueldmqnotmorgan: I am with other cores, don't like the idea of changing only the porject API for a very specific case18:37
ayoungwhat about revocations18:37
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rodrigodssamueldmq, another good point18:37
jamielennoxok, we do need to move along18:37
ayoungthose would need to be replicated.18:37
notmorganayoung: i know hold up.18:37
notmorgandstanek: ok. fair enough.18:37
samueldmqsounds like an issue that should be solved at deployment level, like dolphm just mentioned18:37
agrebennikovdstanek, that was exactly the issue they had18:38
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jamielennoxso i'm going to take it as a -1 from most cores to the general idea but we can continue to discuss it all after the meeting18:38
notmorganjamielennox: ++18:38
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dstanekagrebennikov: is it possible that they were just doing it wrong or is this a problem with the sync software you use?18:39
notmorganjamielennox: that was the result here.18:39
jamielennox#topic Return request-id to caller" and other meta values18:39
*** openstack changes topic to "Return request-id to caller" and other meta values (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:39
lbragstadlet's all resync after dolphm gets a spec up?18:39
jamielennoxbreton_: yours18:39
breton_as far as i remember, you guys decided to talk about the subject at the summit18:39
breton_and choose which approach to use for adding properties to responses returned by ksc18:39
breton_there were 2 possible ways:18:39
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breton_1. Somehow add properties to default python types (eeryone boo here)18:39
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notmorganbreton_: euuuuwwww :(18:40
breton_2. Create a new class, "Response", and do things there18:40
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notmorganbreton_: generally speaking, working with a response object (imo) sounds more correct than wedging data onto python primatives.18:40
breton_i am interested in this because i need to do something similar for horizon -- they want to consume flag "truncated" returned for list operations18:40
dstanekbreton_: i didn't just boo. i threw my laptop in a fit of rage18:41
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breton_and we decided that i'll do it the same way as "return request id to caller"18:41
gyeedstanek, I can only imaging that :D18:41
breton_https://review.openstack.org/#/c/261188/ is moving but too slow, and i want finally some consensus on that18:41
jamielennoxah, there it is, i couldn't find it18:41
jamielennox#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/261188/18:42
breton_because i need to do my thing too18:42
breton_did you discussed it? Also, please add your thoughts to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/261188/18:43
amakarovbreton_: maybe you contack the author and pick that up?18:43
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breton_amakarov: the author wrote to the mailing list today18:43
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dstanekbreton_: isn't that review doing #1?18:43
breton_dstanek: it is18:44
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jamielennoxi'm not sure that request_id ever escapes keystoneclient doing it this way18:44
jamielennoxbut they can be review comments18:44
dstanekjamielennox: ++ i said that early on. that casting or type maniplation may give you a new python primitive without the request id.18:45
jamielennoxbreton_: ok, so we need to get some eyes on that review - i think we need to look at a better response object, i'm not sure about wrapt-ing the whole thing18:45
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dstaneki think a response object is in order so that we can expose other meta data18:45
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jamielennoxdstanek: right, so that response gets turned into a manager specific resource before returning to the user, so we should be able to figure out something there18:46
jamielennoxbreton_: ok for me to move on?18:46
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breton_jamielennox: yes. Everyone, please comment on that review.18:46
jamielennox#topic KeystoneAuth Release today18:46
*** openstack changes topic to "KeystoneAuth Release today (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:46
shalehany chance this work could also assist with the cross project goal of having a shared request_id so a request can be tracked through the layers of OS?18:46
notmorganjust an FYI, we're going to release ksa this week.18:47
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jamielennoxshaleh: sigh - that's a long discussion18:47
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notmorganit has new betamax support etc.18:47
shalehjamielennox: I know :-(18:47
jamielennoxso https://review.openstack.org/#/c/321814/ is the only outstanding review i would want to see in this review18:47
notmorganscream and yell if you're unhappy.18:47
jamielennoxthere are a couple of +2s but no +A as ayoung has offered to test it for us :)18:48
notmorganayoung: can you confirm/ upgrade to +2/+A today?18:48
notmorganayoung: or tomorrow18:48
ayoungjamielennox, was wokring on getting a setup running again18:48
ayoungturns out I was running OSP 7...Pre mitaka stuff18:48
jamielennoxayoung: yea, it broke for me too18:48
jamielennoxlove to get a gate going on this stuff18:49
ayoungbut I should be able to test that on my laptop talking to it18:49
notmorgani'll hold the release until you've tested it/are ok (at least until wednesday)18:49
ayoungwill do18:49
notmorganayoung: thanks. :)18:49
jamielennox#action ayoung test and approve https://review.openstack.org/#/c/321814/18:49
shalehayoung: you have 6 hours, run.....18:49
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jamielennox#topic Service user permissions18:49
*** openstack changes topic to "Service user permissions (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:49
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samueldmqayoung: thanks18:50
jamielennox#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317266/18:50
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jamielennoxso i prompted everyone to think about the consequences of this last week (week before?) and so far have no reviews18:50
shalehon the face of it this sounds like a bad idea18:51
jamielennoxi'd really like everyone's impression of this because it's a big conceptual change that i would like people to be on board with or kill18:51
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gyeejamielennox, I suggest OSS folks take a look at it as well18:51
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shaleh"just trust me" is never good security18:51
jamielennoxgyee: good point - i need to ML it with [security]18:52
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ayoungyeah,  disagree18:52
ayoungwe don't want the token validated, we want the "user still has this allowed" validate18:52
notmorganayoung: i disagree so much with that18:53
ayoungtwo distinc things...a service user should not be tied to the token expiry, but they should only be able to do things a user has asked them...its like S4U2Proxy18:53
notmorganvalidating that every single step is crazypants imo.18:53
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notmorganbut then again i clearly am in the minority here.18:54
gyeesomething to consider, if we are sharing memcache for token validation result, it will have similar issues, security-wise18:54
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dstaneknotmorgan: validating the authz is crazypants?18:54
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jamielennoxayoung: that was my initial gut feeling here as well, still validate the credential headers for consistency at every step18:54
jamielennoxbut i'm having a hard time coming up with what that solves rather than just trusting everything from another service18:55
notmorgandstanek: validating at every single stage in the chain is crazypants because we end up with the broken model of "oh we didn't know you cant do X 5 services deep"18:55
ayoungnotmorgan, if a user loses access to, say a Cinder volume, that she might have had a month ago, the service user should not be able to override18:55
gyeeI have two words, PKI tokens!18:55
ayoungthe service user should not be tied to token expiry, but the delegation should not be infinite, either18:55
ayounga service request should be good for , say, 24 hours18:55
notmorganayoung: and if you're coming back a month later, you shouldn't be using the same request :P18:55
ayoungand a token for 5 minutes18:56
ayoungnotmorgan, exactly18:56
jamielennoxyea,  i don't think a month is reasonable here, there is a certain level of trust we would need to put on the services to forward the right thing, but we have that anyway18:56
notmorganayoung: within a specific scope/request validating permissions (not general auth) at every step is crazy. once you know you're allowed to do X, let them do it.18:56
notmorganayoung: i think we're quibbling over some small details thugh, mostly we're on the same page.18:56
ayoungjamielennox, so  what is proposed here is that nova would be able to do anything anywhere18:57
jamielennoxalso unfortunately this doesn't fix the enforce policy only at the edge either, just token expiration18:57
dstaneki'm generally +1 to this idea, but i have to admin i haven't read the spec yet18:57
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jamielennoxayoung: it has that effect - however conversely to make things work at all nova service user typically has admin already18:58
notmorganjamielennox: that is a big step forward18:58
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notmorganjamielennox: the expiry check is a huge win for openstack18:58
ayoungnotmorgan, we are not 100% on the same page.  I do wantto check up front "can the user do, right now, everything they are erequesting" and return a 40X if they can't18:58
ayoungthere we both agree18:58
notmorganjamielennox: so, generally +1.18:58
ayoungbut there are 2 things I want byond that18:58
ayoung1.  that the servcie use does not have carcte blanche to do anything anywhere18:58
jamielennoxayoung: that is a possible future thing18:59
ayoung2.  that the permission gets rechecked based on the delegation at the time of execution18:59
notmorganayoung: fwiw, they already pretty much do :P most service users *are* admins.18:59
ayoungI care far more about 1 than 218:59
ayoungnotmorgan, I know18:59
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ayoungnotmorgan, I'm the crazy person that came up wiuth trusts....remember?18:59
jamielennoxok - were out of time again18:59
jamielennoxi'll send a ML this week18:59
notmorganjamielennox: ++18:59
jamielennoxlbragstad: ?19:00
notmorganthat is the next logical step.19:00
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jamielennoxplease review19:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 31 19:00:36 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-31-18.02.html19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-31-18.02.txt19:00
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-31-18.02.log.html19:00
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fungiinfra team, assemble!19:00
fungilooks like we have some topics added by mmedvede and dmsimard19:01
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fungittx: if you're around, i wanted to talk about moving forward with the task tracker spec today too19:01
fungipleia2: jeblair: mordred: nibalizer: around?19:02
fungiyolanda doesn't seem to be in channel19:03
fungi#startmeeting infra19:03
openstackMeeting started Tue May 31 19:03:20 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:03
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:03
nibalizerfungi: not really19:03
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fungino worries, just making sure you know there's a meeting afoot19:03
fungi#topic Announcements19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
fungi#info REMINDER: Gerrit downtime on Friday 2016-06-03 at 20:00 UTC19:04
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-May/004322.html19:04
fungifor those planning to help with that, remember that's this friday19:04
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fungialso we're still missing a review for the openstack-infra/ansible-puppet -> openstack-infra/ansible-role-puppet rename, in case someone wants to volunteer to write it before friday19:04
fungiin unrelated news, anyone have any stats for the rename sprint from last week?19:05
fungier, upgrade sprint19:05
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fungilike how many servers we upgraded? how many left to go?19:05
pabelangerI think we managed to upgrade about 43 servers last week19:06
fungi(don't all shout at once!)19:06
pabelangerwith 5 (or 6) remaining19:06
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clarkbpabelanger: I counted closer to 30, we will have to see where our numbers differ :)19:06
clarkb20 logstash-workers, 6 elasticsearch, logstash.o.o, eavesdrop, zuul-dev, cacti, and probably a small handful I am forgetting19:07
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pabelangerzm was 819:07
fungi#info At least 30 servers were upgraded from Ubuntu 12.04 to 14.04 during last week's sprint, with roughly half a dozen remaining19:07
clarkboh right the mergers19:07
fungiso more than 40?19:07
clarkbfungi: sounds like it :)19:07
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Info object at 0x7f2dd3915910>19:07
fungi#info At least 40 servers were upgraded from Ubuntu 12.04 to 14.04 during last week's sprint, with roughly half a dozen remaining19:08
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fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:09
fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-24-19.03.html19:09
fungi set up filtering to direct provider account contact address(es) into a high priority inbox19:09
fungier, pleia2 set up filtering to direct provider account contact address(es) into a high priority inbox19:09
fungi(my highlighter didn't highlight right the first time)19:09
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anteayaI think she said she was going to work on that while she was vacationing19:10
fungipleia2 was travelling this week, so might not be around for the meeting19:10
fungii'll punt discussion of that to next week19:10
fungi#action pleia2 set up filtering to direct provider account contact address(es) into a high priority inbox19:10
fungi#action fungi start an ml thread revisiting current priority efforts list19:10
fungii didn't get to that either19:10
fungihopefully tonight19:11
clarkbfungi: on that I think we can finally remove the nodepool dib effort19:11
clarkbthat is all done now with the bare-precise nodes gone19:11
fungiexcellent, and yes i agree. if you want to propose that for removal i'll happily approve it19:11
pabelangerthe only thing left is tripleo-cloud, they still do a fedora-22 snapshot build19:11
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pabelangerI'm still working to migrate them to centos-7 DIB19:11
fungioh, hrm19:11
fungiright, i wonder for purposes of our priorities list whether that matters19:12
clarkboh for some reason I thought taht was done too, in any case really close19:12
pabelangerThe work is done, but they are having HDD issues (lack of space)19:12
jeblairi would like to remove the snapshot code from nodepool19:12
asselinwe had to use different centos images with large partition19:12
pabelangerSo, I could use some help getting tripleo on board with the migration :)19:12
fungiyeah, so if we want to consider removing snapshot support from nodepool a priority, then it needs to stay on the list for now19:12
fungianyway, we can discuss this on the ml19:13
asselinpabelanger, ping me or jesusaur later on that19:13
fungi#topic Specs approval19:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:13
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fungi(very) late addition to the agenda, but i wanted to propose the current state of https://review.openstack.org/314185 (A common task tracker for OpenStack) for council vote19:14
fungior at least test the waters on how close we are to being able to vote on it19:14
fungii tried to address the outstanding questions/concerns on it today19:14
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fungiand if we don't think it's ready for voting this week, i wanted to at least try to get some consensus on whether we should encourage unofficial projects who are interested in helping beta test it and possibly contribute to development19:16
fungii know dmsimard is interested in having task tracking for his ara project and was disinterested in using lp for that, and wanted to use storyboard if possible19:17
fungi(that was you, right dmsimard?)19:17
dmsimardyeah, I'd like to skip an eventual migration from launchpad especially for a new project19:18
dmsimardI don't like launchpad too much anyway so I'm biased :)19:18
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Zarain a move that surprises nobody, I'm in favour of having more contributors :)19:18
* anteaya is not surprised19:18
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dmsimardI don't think I have the bandwidth or the throughput to contribute code to storyboard but if I can contribute feedback, comments and ideas, I sure will19:19
anteayaI'm in favour of letting folks who want to use storyboard use storyboard19:19
SotKI'm also in favour of allowing folk like dmsimard to jump on and use it19:19
* fungi wonders if the usa contingent is fighting holiday weekend hangovers19:19
anteayadmsimard: your contributions have been supportive thus far, thank you19:19
clarkbfungi: paint fume induced yes19:19
anteayaclarkb: mmmm paint fumes19:19
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anteayaI have no objections to putting the spec to a council vote19:20
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anteayaI'm hearing no one else object19:21
clarkbI am fine with opening it up to the adventurous19:21
* jhesketh is fighting the morning..19:21
fungioh, i should have linked it for convenience :/19:22
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/31418519:22
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clarkband putting the spec up for voting seems fine, we need to start moving on that early this cycle if we want to have something concrete done by the end of the cycle19:22
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fungi#info Council voting on "A common task tracker for OpenStack" is open until 19:00 UTC Thursday, June 219:23
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fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Common OpenStack CI Solution (mmedvede)19:24
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Common OpenStack CI Solution (mmedvede) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:24
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fungisome questions here about a couple of reviews for elasticsearch and logstash support?19:24
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/24001119:24
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/19979019:24
dmsimardI have a topic item but I have to step away for around 20 minutes -- sorry. Keep me for the end ?19:24
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mmedvedespec had the move of elasticsearch/logstash to openstackci19:25
dmsimardBe back asap.19:25
mmedvedethe move is half done (patch that adds things to openstackci merged, removal patch did not)19:25
fungidmsimard: sure (though you're the only other topic besides open discussion, but i can always add something)19:25
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dmsimardfungi: either that or feel free to discuss it, I think the review and the openstack-infra thread contains a sane amount of information19:25
clarkbmmedvede: we likely need to reconverge the setups then get the deletion one in19:26
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mmedvedeso I'd like advise on either to abandon the move as it is now, and revert the patch that merged, or split the move in smaller pieces19:26
clarkbmmedvede: my suggestion would be to do it per service19:26
clarkbelasticsearch, lgostash worker, logstash.o.o, and subunit workers as 4 migrations19:26
clarkbwill be easier to debug issues and revert if we need to19:26
anteayammedvede: what paatch do you want to revert?19:27
asselinshould we revert the puppet-openstackci changes and do them clean?19:27
fungiyeah, it's a lot of moving parts, i agree an incremental move would introduce fewer things to have to debug at each step19:27
clarkbasselin: I don't think you need to do that, just updat ethem19:27
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mmedvedeanteaya: the patch that merged into openstackci19:27
anteayawell I think we need to take a look at who is using openstackci19:27
anteayadoes the target audience want elk too?19:28
anteayammedvede: have you a url?19:28
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mmedvedethat is the only concern, if any of thrid-party CI operator use the pieces already19:28
asselinanteaya, yeah it was part of the original spec19:28
asselin#link openstack common-ci spec https://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/openstackci.html19:28
fungijust a separate change for each class in 199790 right?19:28
anteayammedvede: I have not come across anyone asking about elk for their third party ci19:29
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mmedvedefungi: yes, I'd prefer to split it, and make it as atomic as possible19:29
jesusaurI think if we rework https://review.openstack.org/#/c/240011/ to be a short stack of changes that each address a separate service, then we can move forward without a revert19:29
clarkbanteaya: I think people are more interested in it for their on prem CI maybe less so for CI that reports to us19:29
anteayathat is fine19:30
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anteayamy concern is having to field support questions on it from folks who can't get their zuul figured out, it it is an all in one19:30
anteayaasselin: and my apologies for not following the spec closly enough to know elk was in it19:30
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asselinanteaya, no worries elk is an acronym. spec as written is only inlcuding the 'l' and 'k' poritons: Logstash / kibana (optional)19:31
mmedvedeok, so as I understand, agreed on reverting the patch (maybe send out email just in case) and do the move by service?19:32
asselinmmedvede, no revert, just update19:32
mmedvedeok, no revert. thanks19:33
fungiokay, so way forward determined?19:33
mmedvedefungi: affirmative19:33
clarkbI think so, update openstackci, do one srevice at a time for migrations19:33
asselinany core sponsers to help review?19:33
jesusauranteaya: if your main concern is fielding support questions, I understand the system pretty well and generally reply to pings19:34
clarkbI can help with it though am fairly swamped iwth life right now19:34
fungi#agreed Split proposed elasticsearch/logstash refactor changes into incremental per-class migrations rather than the current big bang19:34
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anteayajesusaur: well yes I know it is less that we don't know how to support it and more the consumers don't know enough to even be able to explain what they are experiencing19:35
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jesusauranteaya: ahh19:36
anteayajesusaur: yeah19:36
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anteayaanyway looks like there is agreement on a thing19:36
anteayamoving on19:36
asselin#link storyboard for common-ci https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/200010119:36
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fungii think the stated goal of the openstackci module was to be able to stand up a complete ci system (eventually including log analysis and code review system)19:36
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fungiand that it was just starting at the third-party ci use case with plans to extend to the rest of our commonly-consumed ci stack19:37
asselinfungi, ++19:38
fungianyway, sounds like this is licked for now19:38
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fungi#topic Gauging interest in a late-cycle in-person sprint (fungi)19:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Gauging interest in a late-cycle in-person sprint (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:38
fungifiller topic while we wait for dmsimard to return19:39
anteayafungi: do you have any idea on location and suggested dates?19:39
anteayaneutron just announced theirs in cork ireland for 17-19 aug19:39
fungiit's been offered that the organization interested in sponsoring the qa sprint this cycle would be interested in making it a joint qa and infra sprint19:39
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clarkbmy biggest thing would be to have a cohesive topic that we can collaborate on. I really liked how the infra cloud one turned out (maybe we do infra cloud pt 2?)19:39
rcarrillocruzabout to say that thing19:40
anteayaqa isn't in the wiki yet19:40
fungiyeah, this is my concern as well. for one, i don't want us to get locked into the idea that we need to have a "mid-cycle" get together every cycle19:40
anteayawhere and when is the qa sprint?19:40
anteayamtreinish: ^^19:40
fungiit's still being debated, but the proposal is in the frankfurt area again, latter half of september19:41
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* notmorgan would consider showing up to a late cycle sprint.19:41
anteayawow that is late19:41
jeblairwe could consider a zuulv3 sprint -- that may be a good time for it19:41
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notmorganjeblair: :)19:41
fungimy concern is that this puts it during the final rc weeks, immediately prior to release week19:41
* rcarrillocruz is cool with germany again19:41
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fungii'd be cool with a reduced-scope agenda for it so that it doesn't seem like something everyone in infra feels like they need to show up for19:42
jeblair(i'm hoping by then we're on our way to running it)19:42
pabelanger+1 for zuulv319:42
rcarrillocruzis it going to be a single topic to get the most out of it or a couple of them19:42
ttxfungi: I'm available for questions19:42
rcarrillocruzi think the numbering pattern pls renaming could be good too19:42
anteayalate september is also during the ptl and tc elections19:43
fungittx: awesome, i'll wedge in a topic for further task tracker discussion in just a sec19:43
jhesketh*I think a sprint on any of our priority efforts would be time well spent19:43
anteayajhesketh: hope you can attend this time, missed you last time19:43
fungianteaya: yeah, i have a feeling i wouldn't go mostly because i want there to be some coverage for election and release activities, but i also don't want to turn down a hosting offer on behalf of our team if there are people interested in taking advantage of it19:44
anteayafungi: I understand19:44
jheskethanteaya: so do I :-)19:44
anteayajhesketh: :)19:44
anteayafungi: but this hosting opporunity doesn't have to be the only opportunity for an infra sprint19:44
anteayait is just _an_ opportunity19:44
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jheskethI have no objection to Germany but it'll be more expensive for most people19:45
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fungianteaya: agreed. i'd also be strongly in favor of doing a virtual sprint for one of our priority efforts (including zuul v3)19:46
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fungii feel like last week's upgrade sprint wet awesomely (did i mention that earlier? thanks everyone for pitching in on that!)19:46
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clarkb3 europe trips in less than 6 months does seem like a bit much but I am happy to go if we think it would be useful19:47
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jheskethOn the election if I could get some reviews on https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:add_elections it'd be good to do soon19:48
fungiokay, so if i get back to the people offering to host a joint qa/infra thing in late september in germany, any guess how many people i should estimate from infra?19:48
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anteayafungi: fair enough19:48
jheskethclarkb: 3?19:48
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clarkbjhesketh: I get on a plane for openstack day prague on saturday19:48
anteayajhesketh: agreed19:48
jheskethAh cool19:49
dmsimardI'm back o/19:49
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pabelangerfungi: Depending on travel approval, I'm a maybe19:49
fungijhesketh: foundation staff are taking advantage of openstack events in hungary and czech republic to co-opt a meeting space for our quarterly meeting19:49
rcarrillocruzi depend on approval19:49
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jheskethfungi: I would make an effort to go but can't promise anything  (budget, timing etc)19:49
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rcarrillocruzobviously is more likely i get approval on EMEA than US/APJ19:49
fungisounds like maybe we would be in the 5-10 infra attendees range?19:50
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clarkbthat sounds about right. ft collins was a little closer to 20 iirc19:51
fungiokay, i'll iterate with them and i guess position it as a zuul v3 polishing sprint?19:51
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fungior infra cloud second installment?19:51
clarkbI htink both of those make good sprints19:52
fungithose were the only concrete ideas i saw pitched so far19:52
jheskethfungi: why not just priority efforts?19:52
fungithat doesn't seem like a focus19:52
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jeblairalso, i bet in a few weeks/months we will have a better idea of which might be effective...19:53
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fungii guess for some people it is, but ideally our priority efforts on the whole are hopefully things we're generally working on anyway19:53
jeblair(current/future infra-cloud hardware state -- progress/roadmap on zuulv3)19:53
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jheskethIt allows others to come and pick their work, but I do see the advantages of being narrow19:53
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anteayawaldorf or dresden19:54
fungiyeah, if everyone picks their work then we'll likely be sitting in a room together more or less working on what we always work on19:54
anteayacan we get to dmsimard's thing and come back to the sprint?19:55
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fungi#topic Ara project interest (dmsimard)19:56
*** openstack changes topic to "Ara project interest (dmsimard) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:56
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/32122619:56
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fungidmsimard: i guess you put this on the agenda because you're curious about whether infra use cases are compelling for it?19:56
dmsimardHi, tl;dr ARA is a project born out of RDO because we have a lot of CI that installs and tests openstack-related things through ansible.19:56
dmsimardAnd we have logs like these: https://dmsimard.com/files/ansible-jenkins.txt19:57
dmsimardThese are not fun.19:57
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fungithat looks familiar to me19:57
rcarrillocruzwell, i can tell that tool can be useful in the world where we automate one-off playbooks against our infra servers... looks very cool19:57
jeblairoh yeah, we ran into the "all puppet stdout in one line" thing too :)19:57
dmsimardWe're seeking a home for the project and believe that OpenStack is a good one for it19:57
dmsimardProjects like jenkins job builder were also born out of OpenStack requirements19:58
fungidmsimard: starting as an unofficial project in openstack's gerrit, sounded like and maybe looking to join infra later or something?19:58
dmsimardUp to you guys, really - a first step would be to join the ecosystem first, yes.19:59
dmsimardI added the item on the agenda due to lack of -2 or +2, really, though19:59
jeblairi think it might prove really useful in zuulv3, but i don't think we're ready to think about the details yet.  i'd love to see it generating some static stuff from devstack-gate tempest runs though -- that might be useful, shouldn't be too hard, and would show it off a bit19:59
dmsimardBecause the project needs a home and if that home isn't openstack, we can house it as a RDO project19:59
jeblairwe might want to think about using in in connection with/instead of puppetboard19:59
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jeblair(for infra system-config reporting)19:59
dmsimardjeblair: yes, ara is fairly analogous to puppetboard20:00
fungiyeah, it seems like it might be a fit for becoming an infra project, _if_ we get to the point where we're depending on it. i'd just hesitate to adopt it officially if we're not making use of it20:00
fungialso we're out of time20:00
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anteayathank you fungi20:00
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dmsimardthanks for your time :)20:00
rcarrillocruzttyl folks20:00
fungianyway, i guess anyone interested in maybe implementing ara, review dmsimard's change and get up with him20:01
fungithanks everyone!20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 31 20:01:18 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-31-19.03.html20:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-31-19.03.txt20:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-31-19.03.log.html20:01
* amrith coughs discreetly20:01
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bkerothanks everybody, have a good week!20:01
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notmorganttx: i owe you an email.20:01
* rockyg quietly snacks on blueberries20:01
notmorganrussellb: o/ HI :)20:01
ttxannegentle, johnthetubaguy, mtreinish, mordred, sdague : around ?20:01
ttx#startmeeting tc20:02
openstackMeeting started Tue May 31 20:02:07 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:02
* devananda heats up lunch and sits in the back20:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:02
russellbnotmorgan: hello there!20:02
ttxHi everyone!20:02
ttxalmost full house today20:02
* dims is at a soccer field parking lot20:02
* flaper87 bows and says hi20:02
annegentlewhy hello there20:02
ttxOur agenda:20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:02
mesterydims: that sounds fun :)20:02
* edleafe waves from PyCon20:02
ttxNB: We'll skip the golang discussion this week as we made little progress over the past week20:02
* dhellmann waves to edleafe from pycon20:02
ttxWe should gather enough info to push it forward next week though.20:02
notmorganedleafe: i'll wave from a couple miles away from pycon :)20:03
ttxIn the mean time let's burn some backlog20:03
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ttx#topic Add resolution explaining which tests we think defcore should use20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Add resolution explaining which tests we think defcore should use (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/31271820:03
ttxdhellmann: care to present this one ?20:03
dhellmannthis is the result of a part of the discussion at the summit20:03
dhellmannthere was some talk of supporting tests outside of tempest, and in fact tempest and or refstack already do20:03
dhellmannbut for the purposes of defcore, I think that having a strong central review team is valuable20:04
dhellmannand so I am proposing that we "indicate the technical direction" of the project by asking defcore to look only at tests in the tempest repo20:04
dhellmannthat will mean adding or moving tests from other places, but I didn't want to specify the process for doing that in the resolution itself20:05
dhellmannthe defcore, qa, and project teams can handle the details20:05
ttxok. It's not completely crazy to require some consistency in tests that are used to assess interoperability20:05
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notmorganttx: ++20:05
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dimsdhellmann : are the respective teams ok to carry out this work?20:05
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mesteryttx: I think require is actually fine20:06
dhellmanndims : I discussed it with the qa team, and they agreed20:06
notmorganAIUI the QA/tempest team were ok with this20:06
dimsnotmorgan : dhellmann : cool20:06
flaper87dhellmann: so, the QA team will do most of this work20:06
sdaguethe qa and refstack folks were in the room, right?20:06
ttxand the qa PTL supported the change20:06
catherineDsdague: yes I am from the refstack team20:06
dhellmannflaper87 : no. as tests are identified for defcore needs, I would expect the project teams to work with the qa team to get them moved20:06
sdagueflaper87: the qa team does the review work, they don't write every test20:06
dhellmannwith trademark and interop support as the carrot to do that20:06
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flaper87sdague: yeah, I meant that and some of the moving work, not really writing the tests20:07
* flaper87 should have been more specific20:07
* notmorgan sighs.20:07
flaper87dhellmann: ok, thanks for clarifying20:07
notmorganstupid OTP.20:07
* dhellmann waits for notmorgan to touch his yubikey again20:07
johnthetubaguyso I totally like the idea of it being in a central place, tempest sounds good if tempest folks like that idea20:07
rockygI have a question:  Defcore may also include "scenario tests" in the future (like my first app)  can we make this a "future" collaboration with QA?20:07
notmorgandhellmann: it'll get me out of sync and i'll need to re-sync the token soon enough.20:07
sdaguerockyg: yeh, future things are always subject to figuring out the right thing to do in the future20:07
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dhellmannrockyg : likely. The proposal is that we ask defcore to only use tests from tempest, which will trigger adding more tests there to support them.20:08
sdaguethis seems more like a statement of how to do all the things that are being done now20:08
hogepodgeas a defcore working group member I am happy to work with the qa team and projects20:08
notmorganhogepodge: good to hear20:08
flaper87hogepodge: ++20:08
ttxOK, we seem to have agreement20:08
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dhellmannhogepodge : great! and I want to be clear that although we may rely on defcore to identify tests, I think it's entirely reasonable to leave the work of moving/updating them to project teams20:09
ttx8 votes without counting Doug20:09
johnthetubaguyI guess we start marking tests as explicitly interop tests in tempest at some point?20:09
rockygMom and apple pie20:09
hogepodgenote that markvoelker and eglute are the chairs of the working group, so speak on an official capacity for it20:09
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy : yes, that's a good idea20:09
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: maybe, refstack already has a way to track that in their repo20:09
mtreinishjohnthetubaguy: maybe, how we tag things isn't necessarily that straightforward20:09
hogepodgeI administer defcore for the foundation20:09
johnthetubaguydhellmann: I loved your point on them needing a different sort of review20:09
mtreinishjohnthetubaguy: because there is already a list maintained20:09
sdaguethat's why the stable uuid exists to make that external tagging work well20:10
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy : thanks20:10
johnthetubaguyI was thinking a more reverse things20:10
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johnthetubaguyhang on, thats nonsense20:10
ttxdhellmann: do you think that needs a new patchset or should it be approved as-is ?20:10
annegentlettx: do we know who all needs to agree for this resolution to work out?20:10
johnthetubaguyI mean make it clear to reviewers the intent of the test is interop20:10
dimsas a result of this action, is there a project likely to drop from defcore radar/coverage?20:10
annegentlewondering as I read some of the comments20:11
dhellmannttx: I can spin a new version if needed. I don't remember any edits that I thought I needed, but let me look again20:11
johnthetubaguyI know we track it, but its not infront of your else right now, but I could be missing something20:11
ttxannegentle: the way it's phrased it's just a TC resolution, so majority of TC member votes20:11
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dhellmannannegentle : TC, QA, DefCore?20:11
flaper87dhellmann: the only one I remember is the third option but we can add that in a follow-up patch20:11
mtreinishdims: not really, the projects currently covered by defcore all have existing tempest tests20:11
hogepodgedims: defcore is completely covered in tempest right now, with additional features from heat and swift in external test repos20:11
dhellmannflaper87 : at that point in the resolution I was recording history, and that option was not part of the history20:11
annegentledhellmann: ok so do we need Mark and Egle to vote or is it okay as-is?20:11
dimsmtreinish : hogepodge : cool!20:12
ttxbut then to "work out" someone will have to carry the work, so QA+Defcore support can't hurt20:12
flaper87dhellmann: ah, fair enough20:12
hogepodgethe additional features are not required or advisory, just under review20:12
dimsttx : +120:12
dhellmannannegentle : it's a tc resolution, so we need to vote and then it's our suggestion/request to them20:12
annegentledhellmann: ok check20:12
dimshogepodge : ack.20:12
ttxdhellmann: ready to approve on your command20:12
dhellmannttx: I'm happy with this draft20:12
ttxok, sold20:12
devanandadhellmann: I thought there was an initiative to move a lot of the tempest tests to use tempest-lib -- ie, put them in the project specific repos20:13
ttx#topic Add resolution asking defcore committee to avoid using proxy APIs in tests20:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Add resolution asking defcore committee to avoid using proxy APIs in tests (Meeting topic: tc)"20:13
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/31271920:13
dhellmanndevananda : that's good for non-interop functional tests20:13
ttxdhellmann: you again20:13
* ttx sits back20:13
dhellmanndevananda : and in the review comments I mention that this resolution may result in some test duplication20:13
dhellmannok, this one is another "please take this as technical direction" request for defcore to avoid using tests that use features of one service proxied through another20:14
dhellmannfor example, calling nova apis to proxy to glance to test image management features20:14
dhellmannthey have used those tests because those were the ones that existed, which is understandable20:14
dhellmannI think a better outcome is to identify the need for those tests and ask for new ones to be written that do not use the proxies20:14
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dhellmannand then those are more appropriate for interop testing and trademark20:14
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ttxThat sounds sane, actually already has majority votes in support20:15
rockygfyi, DefCore is on top of this, but having the resolution is a hard direction point that makes it easier to score "future direction -not"20:15
sdaguedhellmann: yep, all very sensible. Also, fyi, Nova is deprecating all those proxies this cycle20:15
flaper87I'm sold already20:15
ttxI agree with comments who say that we should probably also state at some point that proxy APIs are evil and should diaf20:15
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dhellmannjohnthetubaguy pointed out that this follows nova's -- what sdague said faster20:15
dimsdhellmann : sounds good to me20:15
mtreinishdhellmann: in most cases those tests which go right to the projects already exist (and have for a long time)20:15
johnthetubaguyso I think the image api is a bad example here in some ways, but totally agree with us saying not to add the proxy APIs20:15
annegentlecan someone define proxy as we see it?20:15
mesteryttx: ++20:15
* flaper87 thanks all the gods for the proxies deprecations20:15
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dhellmannmtreinish : ok, cool.20:15
devanandafwiw, I'm very much in agreement with this20:15
rockygIn fact, I think this is a great start for doing this with more phase-out or phase-in stuff20:15
flaper87thingee: that was me, I think. Happy t owrite that down20:16
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flaper87ttx: ^20:16
annegentleso is a proxy only one service to another service?20:16
flaper87thingee: sorry20:16
annegentlewhat about keystone v2.0 to v3? Is that not a proxy?20:16
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notmorganannegentle: that is not a proxy20:16
annegentleor is that a redirect?20:16
sdagueannegentle: no, that's not a proxy20:16
dhellmannannegentle : yeah, if I call nova to do something and it really only talks to another service to do the work where I could have called that API myself20:16
notmorgannot even a redirect20:16
dimsannegentle : if we test something in glance by calling Nova's REST API for example20:16
notmorganthey are separate paths.20:16
annegentledims: I get that one. I'm not sure about the keystone case.20:17
notmorganand run concurrently today20:17
sdaguethis is things like /images or /volumes in Nova which are really just proxies to another REST service, there for historical reasons20:17
dhellmannif you want to test the feature of an openstack project, you should talk directly to it as much as possible20:17
sdaguebecause that other service used to be Nova20:17
annegentleokay, got it.20:17
notmorgansdague: ++ :)20:17
sdaguebut it isn't any more20:17
dimsannegentle : ah. listening :)20:17
rockygdefinition of "proxy api" would be good to have in the resolution20:17
dhellmannit's ok to use other projects to "set up" for a test, but better if you don't have to20:17
annegentleyeah I'll comment on the review, I already said I approve but just want to be clear20:17
dhellmannthat way we get good test isolation, and don't have implicit things being wrapped up in interop tests20:18
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dimsannegentle : good one.20:18
ttxrockyg: feels clear enough, there is an example in the text20:18
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ttxdhellmann: ok, looks like there is agreement. Shall I approve current version of the text or do you want to make changes ?20:18
rockygttx, thanks.  I have problems reading two things at once, especially when one is changing rapidly;-)20:18
annegentleactually, reading it again, it's fine. There's a clear statement of "service to service"20:18
dhellmannttx: I'm happy with this draft20:19
ttxrockyg: I wonder which :)20:19
ttxOK then, approving now20:19
ttx#topic Add Juju Charms for OpenStack20:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Add Juju Charms for OpenStack (Meeting topic: tc)"20:19
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/22479720:19
ttxThis was originally proposed in Sept 2015.20:19
ttxjamespage: o/20:19
ttxBack then it was postponed waiting for some activity in the team and clarification of our licensing rules20:20
ttxSince then activity has happened, and to me it appears to be following the OpenStack way enough20:20
ttxBut we also clarified our licensing rules20:20
dhellmannwhat was the outcome of the license discussion?20:20
ttx#link http://governance.openstack.org/reference/licensing.html20:20
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ttxUnder those rules it seems difficult to accept charms that would be GPLv3. They should be ASLv2, MIT or BSD (any form)20:20
mtreinishttx: then wouldn't this be blocked until things are relicensed?20:21
dhellmannit seems so20:21
ttxmtreinish: that is my interpretation of the current rules yes20:21
thingeemtreinish: +120:21
johnthetubaguyyeah, +120:21
notmorganthat is what it sounds like to me.20:21
dhellmanndoes that need a vote on the patch, or do you want to just communicate that to them ttx?20:22
russellbi figure we don't need to pile on -1s20:22
dimsttx : jamespage : what happens to existing forks under GPLv3 (from folks outside of canonical) if they want to be folded back to our repo?20:22
flaper87russellb: ++20:22
dhellmannrussellb : right, that seems excessive20:22
ttxYeah, maybe I can just register a -1 if you agree with my reading20:22
dhellmannttx: I certainly agree.20:22
notmorgana single -1 for that seems reasonable20:22
ttxand then if the relicensing discussion takes forever we'll temporarily abandon the review until it's settled20:22
* jamespage crosses fingers it won't take for ever but he has some running around todo for that20:23
ttxdo you have other objections that we should record ?20:23
anteayattx when you -1 can you say that you do so as a representative of the group, for archival purposes20:23
notmorgani also want to voice a minor disappointment they're doing independant releases instead of trailing. as long as they're happy with that placement, i'm ok with it20:23
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notmorganbut minor disappointment is strictly because i don't want concern that it's not "part" of the release.20:24
dhellmannjamespage : yeah, if you'd like to talk about release models we can do that next week when I'm back on a non-conference schedule20:24
dimsi am good with just the relicensing20:24
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jamespagedhellmann, sure sounds good - we're every 3 months atm20:24
notmorgandown the road.20:24
dimsnotmorgan : ++20:24
dhellmannjamespage : ok, you may have the right model then, but let's make sure20:25
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dhellmannsort out the license stuff first, the model is easy enough to deal with20:25
dimsdhellmann : agree20:25
ttxFTR I'm good with the proposal if we can get the licensing fixed. I think those packaging teams have been pretty successful collaboration efforts in the big tent20:25
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flaper87ttx: agreed!20:25
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ttxIt's like magic that turns a dozen crappy github forks into something usable20:26
notmorganttx: ++20:26
russellbha... packaging teams?  or you mean the config mgmt teams?20:26
ttxOK, if we don't have further questions on this topic I propose we move on20:26
russellbnot sure the packaging teams have been terribly productive ..20:27
ttxrussellb: packaging/deployment-recipes thingies20:27
russellbk, moving on is fine20:27
ttxrussellb: traditional packaging, yeah20:27
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ttxAlright, moving on20:27
ttx#topic Add project Vitrage to OpenStack big-tent20:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Add project Vitrage to OpenStack big-tent (Meeting topic: tc)"20:27
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/32029620:27
ttxAnyone from Vitrage present ?20:27
ifat_afekhi, I'm here20:28
ttxHi Ifat!20:28
* flaper87 just noticed gertty didn't store his comment on the Vitrage review20:28
ttxflaper87: would you mind explain your -1 ?20:28
dimsflaper87 : what was your -1 for?20:28
flaper87I just commented again20:28
ttxblaming gertty will get you NOWHERE20:28
notmorganflaper87: ah now your -1 is more clear20:28
flaper87It's a nit. The project uses Engine instead of service20:28
dimsah. thx20:29
flaper87I wonder if there's an real motivation for that20:29
ttxoh, nice nit20:29
flaper87otherwise I'd prefer using service20:29
flaper87Vitrage is a service (tagged type:service) so, it kinda makes more sense to use service instead20:29
ifat_afekflaper87: can you please explain?20:29
notmynameflaper87: there isn't an "engine" type defined, is there?20:30
dhellmannifat: we get picky about the wording there, because we want projects to all look the same in the rendered veersion of the documentation20:30
notmorgandhellmann: ++20:30
annegentleifat_afek: it matters for REST API docs too20:30
ifat_afekOh, you mean we should call it RCA service?20:30
flaper87ifat_afek: ^20:30
ttxifat_afek: yes20:30
notmorganifat_afek: yeah20:30
flaper87ifat_afek: yeah20:30
dhellmannifat_afek : right20:30
flaper87ifat_afek: sorry for not being clear20:30
ifat_afekI see you all agree :-) guess it's fine with us20:31
notmorganifat_afek: unless there is a real reason to call it an "engine"20:31
ttxOtherwise Vitrage seems to fit the requirements for me - definitely developed in the OpenStack Way20:31
flaper87I panic'd when I noticed my comment was missing20:31
* thingee is already imagining how this will be expressed in the service type auth repo20:31
ttxLike I said in the review, the use case seems a bit focused on specialized private clouds where exposing the user to underlying topology is seen as a feature rather than a bug20:31
flaper87yup, that's my only comment, otherwise it looks good20:31
ifat_afeknotmorgan: no real reason, it just sounded good to us. We weren't aware of these terminology issues20:31
notmorganifat_afek: no worries then, easy fix20:31
edleafettx: anti-cloud?20:32
notmorganedleafe: what happens if anti-cloud and cloud touch?20:32
mtreinishnotmorgan: warp drive?20:32
edleafenotmorgan: you don't want to know20:32
annegentleifat_afek: do you see this as an admin API only? Or is there a way to configure for admins only to view the topology?20:32
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ttxifat_afek: could you explain how multitenancy would fix that ? It feels like Vitrage provides clarity in a cloud where by design some people want to hide which switch is connected to which VM20:32
sdaguettx: it is a pretty common use case though. self service users make a ton of sense when you have addition trust in your users.20:32
ifat_afekttx: we would like to let admin see everything; and for users of other tenants filter what they see - only their instances, stacks, alarms, etc.20:33
ttxsdague: I understand the use case, I'm just wondering about that comment which says multitenancy would fix it20:33
ttxifat_afek: I see, makes sense20:33
ifat_afekttx: we can add a comment20:33
ttxifat_afek: it's not blocking the review, just wanted to make sure I understood20:34
jrollsounds like the use case for end users could be something like "alert infra@openstack.org that git01.openstack.org is down because foo"20:34
ttxOther questions, objections ?20:34
amrithttx ./20:34
* ttx passes mike to amrith20:34
amriththx ttx20:35
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dhellmannttx: should ifat_afek update the wording in this patch, or via a second?20:35
ttxdhellmann: yes, if that's the only objection20:35
* dhellmann doesn't need a mic20:35
amrithjus a question about the relationship, if any with the telemetry projects.20:35
fungijroll: or notify jroll when we have issues with his employer's cloud and can't get a response on a ticket ;)20:35
amrithis this a part of 'telemetry'20:35
ttxamrith: it gets alamrs from them20:35
flaper87dhellmann: if ifat_afek does it now, I think we can vote quickly20:35
dhellmannflaper87 : ++20:35
ifat_afekamirth: we are currently working on integration with aodh20:35
dimslooks like they are using oslo_messaging, aodh/ceilometer etc20:35
annegentleifat_afek: my question on the review is about whether you'll expect operators to protect the API or if a policy is already builtin20:35
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amrithttx, would that mean it should be part of telemetry or is it a top level project in its own right.20:35
amriththat's my only question20:36
jrollfungi: :D20:36
* amrith returns mic to ttx20:36
ttxamrith: different team, different project team20:36
ifat_afekwe already have an aodh datasource, and we are designing a notifier of vitrage alarms to aodh, in coordination with aodh guys20:36
ttxamrith: we don't do "programs" anymore20:36
ttxso there is no reserved territory for telemetry20:36
amrithah, thanks ttx20:36
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ttxhere it's a complement service that doesn't duplicate feature20:36
ttxand actually integrates with telemetry services20:37
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dimsttx : ++20:37
dhellmannwe have more and more projects now consuming the output of existing projects and building on their features20:37
ifat_afekannegentle: I'm no sure I understand the question, can you please explain?20:37
flaper87ifat_afek: are you amending the review now? Or planning to do it later?20:37
ttxifat_afek: could you quickly fix the wording to say "service" ? I think we could approve it just after you post it20:37
* flaper87 hands ifat_afek a marker20:37
ttxWe can review Watcher in the mean time20:37
ifat_afekttx: sure, doing it now20:37
ttxifat_afek: thanks!20:37
ttx#topic Add project Watcher to OpenStack big-tent20:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Add project Watcher to OpenStack big-tent (Meeting topic: tc)"20:38
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/32094120:38
ttxacabot_: o/20:38
annegentleifat_afek: Wanted to also ask the same as ttx20:38
ttxThis one sounds mostly straightforward to me. Developed in the OpenStack Way, good diversity already for a non-official project20:38
annegentleifat_afek: do you expect this to be an admin api and if so, what's the mechanism20:38
* mestery waves at sballe_ :)20:38
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flaper87ttx: acabot_ looks like there's a small thing to fix.20:38
ttxflaper87: yes20:38
flaper87I held off my vote waiting on that fix, fwiw20:38
flaper87otherwise, lgtm20:38
mesteryflaper87: ++20:38
ttxProactive resource optimization sounds like a useful thing to have in most use cases, be it public or private cloud, and at any size -- so that fits the mission well20:38
notmorganflaper87: ++20:39
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ttxIf we remove the diverse-affiliation claim which is incorrect (as of now), I'm fine approving it20:39
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johnthetubaguylots of operators seemed interested in the project at the ops meetup in manchester, not that thats really relevant to the approval, just interesting20:39
ttxquestions ?20:39
notmorganttx: wfm20:40
flaper87acabot_: any chance you can address ttx's comment now? that way we can approve it now20:40
annegentlegood to know johnthetubaguy20:40
dhellmannsorry for not reading up in advance, but what sort of optimizations are we talking about here?20:40
ttxjohnthetubaguy: yes it seems to strike a chord. Or whatever is appropriate to strike in a tuba20:40
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* ttx is a piano guy20:40
acabot_flaper87 : yes20:40
johnthetubaguyttx: you can do that actually, multi-phonics, but anyways, yeah, it did just that20:40
edleafedhellmann: dynamic relocation of resources based on pre-defined criteria20:40
johnthetubaguydhellmann: shuffle the deck so you can fit more VMs in, or some other handy things20:41
ttxdhellmann: resource placement. Think: consolidate VMs on machines and turn off others to reduce energy consumption20:41
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ttxor spread out heat20:41
thingeeso heat mentions of doing auto scaling ... this wants to optimize resources20:41
dimsttx : i am wondering what kind of things they would need in say Nova or Neutron to make the optimizations possible. guess i have to go read up on what they are doing :)20:41
edleafedhellmann: or spread them ouot to reduce noisy neighbors20:41
dhellmannvery neat. how does that fit with congress' role?20:41
johnthetubaguybasically, it calls Nova's live-migrate, as I understand it20:41
johnthetubaguypost creating of instances20:41
sdaguedims: there have been some specs20:41
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edleafeCongress could be a source for the strategies20:42
dimssdague : ah cool20:42
* ttx has been doing his homework and can explain projects today20:42
dimsyay ttx :)20:42
ttxbut really I should let acabot answer20:42
* flaper87 copied ttx's homework20:42
thingeeso heat autoscale would be to add more instances and watcher is to move things around?20:42
* edleafe hands ttx a sticker20:42
sdaguethere were some concerns about how we were adapting our os-migrations API20:42
johnthetubaguydims: actually edleafe's spec is one, about passing in a list of candidate hosts into live-migrate20:42
sdaguethingee: yeh, this does not assume your stuff is 12 factor stateless apps20:42
edleafedims: yeah, what johnthetubaguy said20:43
sdagueit assumes the apps you launched is what you want20:43
gordcamrith: just fyi, we have a list of services that extend existing services under telemetry umbrella: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Telemetry#Externally_Managed20:43
dimsedleafe : ack20:43
sdagueand then tries to rejigger their placement to optimize for various things as time goes on20:43
dhellmannsdague : so watcher may know more about the cloud implementation than heat would take advantage of?20:43
sdague"cloud defrag"20:44
flaper87acabot_: another small nit, sorry for not catching it earlier20:44
edleafesdague: +120:44
dhellmannbut less about the application?20:44
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dimsacabot_ : one thing about heat was excessive polling of Nova API (as there's no other way to know what's going on)...wondering what kinds of hooks you need more than what exists today20:44
* amrith responds to gordc privately to reduce cross-talk20:44
sdaguedhellmann: it knows about the application from a black box perspective20:44
johnthetubaguyheat starts VMs, watcher moves them later on20:44
dhellmannok, makes sense20:44
edleafedhellmann: yes. Heat is for tenants to optimize their apps, while Watcher is for ops to optimize their deployment20:44
annegentlesdague: I want a visual tool for that cloud defrag20:44
johnthetubaguymoves them after all your friends got deleted as they were less pet-ey than you20:45
dhellmannedleafe : that's very clear, thanks20:45
russellbthis is a very traditional data center virt type feature, but i'm supportive of it20:45
dhellmannannegentle : little colored squares in your terminal? :-)20:45
sdagueso, hey, people shut stuff down, I've got idle capacity on 4 racks, maybe I could get to 3 racks and power down rack 4 entirely to save cooling/power20:45
dims"pet-ey" :) nice johnthetubaguy20:45
annegentledhellmann: zactly20:45
acabot_flaper87 : done ;-)20:45
sdagueit's still early, but it's definitely an interesting space to be tackling20:45
johnthetubaguydims: heh, thats better than I intended20:45
thingeesdague: ok I think I got it. it's just confusing with things like auto scaling.20:45
ttxI like to think of it as more generally the background process that will apply some long-term optimization policy as you have churn on your resources20:45
jrollanother example use case besides power saving: shuffle things around to get a bunch of empty hypervisors, update kernels on the empties, move things back around to get other empties20:46
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sdaguejroll: right, from the "oh noes hypervisor exploit!"20:46
dimsjroll : sold!20:46
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johnthetubaguyyeah, the updates is what makes defrag critical20:46
edleafejroll: good point20:46
jrollsdague: or even basic cleanliness :)20:46
russellb"policy based live migration" is what it's called in some other things ...20:46
ttxLooks like we have a winner: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/320941/320:46
sdaguejroll: yup20:47
flaper87acabot_: thanks20:47
acabot_thanks !20:47
ttxplease vote there20:47
ttxand also at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/32029620:47
acabot_and sorry for not being reactive enough on all your comments !20:47
flaper87ifat_afek: one more nit, sorry :(20:47
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dimsacabot_ : no worries.20:47
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ttxacabot_: you were reactive alright. Thanks for staying up20:47
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edleafeflaper87: eagle-eye!20:48
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ttxhmm https://review.openstack.org/#/c/320296 needs another turn20:48
dhellmannflaper87 : we could fix that in a follow-up to keep this moving. ttx can approve typo-fixes20:48
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dimsdhellmann : ttx : +120:49
flaper87dhellmann: good for me, just thought this one could be super quick20:49
ifat_afekflaper87: sure, will fix in a minute.20:49
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dhellmannflaper87 : sure, either way, just wanted ifat_afek to get the vote today :-)20:49
flaper87ifat_afek: you can do it in a follow-up20:49
ttxok, let's give Ifat a couple more minutes20:49
dimsacabot_ : ifat_afek : thanks!20:49
* flaper87 stfu20:49
flaper87we're confusing ifat_afek20:49
ttxI'm approving Watcher now, please vote if you want to be counted20:49
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annegentlettx: voted20:50
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ttxAlright done20:51
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ttx#topic Open discussion20:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:51
acabot_thanks ttx20:51
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ttxWe have a number of stale changes that it might be good to quickly review20:52
ttxunless someone has another topic20:52
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annegentleI didn't get to my projects.yaml patch with the three-day weekend20:52
ttxhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/293140/ was proposed by lifeless and was supposed to get another revision. If someone is interested you can pick it up20:52
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flaper87We haven't posted anything lately (comm wg) and I think we've accumulated some interesting topics for a blog post20:53
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flaper87annegentle: I can help drafting it20:53
annegentleflaper87: oh yeah, good point20:53
ttxThere is also the series of changes for type:packaging and type:deployment tags (proposed by sdake) but I think those were made mostly redundant by our new cycle-trailing release model20:53
dimsttx : i'll volunteer to touch up that review from lifeless20:53
ttxdims: thx20:53
dhellmannannegentle, flaper87 : a summary of the golang discussion in particular, even though that's ongoing20:54
ifat_afekpushed another fix, waiting for git review :-)20:54
ttxIf those don't get a refresh soon I'll probably abandon them to avoid clogging the view20:54
notmorganttx: just a drop the names?20:54
notmorganttx: who should be included for the review, the TC?20:54
annegentleflaper87: we've done a summit wrapup in the past (though is that old news by now?)20:54
notmorganttx: for the AGPL change20:54
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annegentledhellmann: agreed, though that's difficult :)20:55
flaper87dhellmann: yeah, I think that one will take a couple of blog posts for sure. I guess we should start with a summary as you suggested20:55
flaper87annegentle: mmh, I'd say it's20:55
* notmorgan will fix that line quickly if we have direction on who should be included20:55
ttxnotmorgan: not sure what you're talking about20:55
notmorganttx: Good people to seek initial20:55
notmorganopinions on such cases include Monty Taylor, Jim Blair and Robert Collins20:55
annegentleflaper87: a summary is straightforward20:55
notmorganttx: just drop that line?20:55
dhellmannttx: I'll pick up those type tag reviews in the next couple of weeks if sdake_ doesn't20:56
ttxnotmorgan: somethign like that. dims said he would pick it up though20:56
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ttxdhellmann: ok20:56
notmorganah ok20:56
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dimsnotmorgan : ttx : yep20:56
* notmorgan didn't see dims responding20:56
johnthetubaguyso I just did an inline edit, does that look better?20:56
flaper87I ran the validate tags script yday and there are some "team" tags updates to do. I'll submit a patch in the next couple of days20:56
notmorganjohnthetubaguy: that was what i was going to do20:56
flaper87do we have that automated ?20:56
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ttxHmm, feels like we have enough votes on the Vitrage review with an S20:56
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ttxah, merge conflict now20:57
ttxbad voodoo on this one20:57
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ttxifat_afek: is your git review going through ?20:58
ttxAnd I thought my network was slow...20:58
dhellmannttx: we've previously delegated rebasing approved patches like that and said you can approve once the rebase passes the tests20:58
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ifat_afekttx: got messed up with some other updates, working on that20:58
ttxdhellmann: yeah, but looks better with proper recorded approvals20:58
dimsjohnthetubaguy : we should provide something like "drop a note to legal-discuss" or something like that at least20:58
dhellmannttx: ok20:58
johnthetubaguydims: we could20:58
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ttxflaper87, annegentle: so are you up for a blog post ? Feels like the project additions and the various other things we passed since the beginning is enough material20:59
flaper87ttx: yes20:59
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annegentlettx: ayup20:59
dims1 min left20:59
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flaper87annegentle: that's how one sneezes in spanish... almost20:59
flaper87annegentle: s/y/ch/21:00
* amrith wonders if others have ticketed for the training in just over a month.21:00
flaper87random comment for the last minute open discussion21:00
dhellmannamrith : yes, I'm all booked21:00
ttxall booked21:00
amrithdhellmann, sheraton?21:00
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amrithttx sheraton?21:00
dimshave fun you all !21:00
dhellmannamrith : one of the b&b options21:00
* notmorgan needs to book travel.21:00
flaper87amrith: all booked21:00
ttxAt a B&B21:00
* jroll is local and commuting, no booking needed \o/21:00
ttxjroll: nice21:00
notmorganjroll: oh nice.21:00
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amrithok, thanks folks.21:00
ttxok, time is up21:00
* flaper87 is at the same b&b as ttx21:00
jrollamrith: I have a couch!21:00
ttxwe own the HOUSE21:01
annegentleoh nice jroll21:01
dhellmannthanks everyone, good meeting21:01
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flaper87jroll: lucky21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 31 21:01:16 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
*** bIairo is now known as b1airo21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-31-20.02.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-31-20.02.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-31-20.02.log.html21:01
oneswigTake it away Mr Bethwaite...21:01
b1airo#startmeeting scientific-wg21:02
openstackMeeting started Tue May 31 21:02:01 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is b1airo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg'21:02
b1airo#chair oneswig21:02
openstackCurrent chairs: b1airo oneswig21:02
oneswigThank you sir!21:02
b1airohi leong21:02
oneswigHi Leong21:02
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b1airohi LyleWinton21:03
LyleWintonhey Blair21:03
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oneswigHi Lyle21:03
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oneswigThe same!21:04
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b1airook, let's get into it then21:05
b1airoquick roll call...21:06
b1airo(if for nothing more than to get the meetbot stats up ;-) )21:06
oneswig+1 :-)21:06
anteayaan important stat21:06
b1airoleong, craigs - would you please remind me of your names so I can try to recall?21:07
leongleong from Intel21:07
craigsCraig Sterrett21:07
craigsfrom Intel21:07
leongYih Leong Sun :)21:07
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b1airoactually i should probably check irc before asking (sorry) ...21:08
b1airo#topic User Stories21:09
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anteayado we have an agenda?21:09
oneswigWe do, bear with me...21:09
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anteayamight we link to the agenda if we have one?21:09
b1airoyes: #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_working_group#IRC_Meeting_May_31st_201621:09
anteayaoneswig: thanks21:09
anteayawonderful thank you21:09
oneswigGot there first b1airo!21:09
b1airohad it open21:10
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oneswigOK, first item under user stories was the idea of creating a whitepaper describing the current position on OpenStack and HPC21:10
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oneswigThere is interest in creating this in a similar form to the previous papers on OpenStack and containers (for example)21:11
b1airoyes, so perhaps you can remind us of the approach you're talking with the cambridge paper oneswig ?21:11
* b1airo admits he hasn't read one of those papers21:11
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oneswigOK, so the background is I have a contract with Cambridge Uni to deliver a very similar study for informing their purposes21:12
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b1airoand by the way, still happy to contribute to that if we can do so usefully21:12
oneswigAnd the plan is to extend that paper with further contribution, reshape it and improve it and then work with th eFoundation to shape it to their needs21:12
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oneswigb1airo: thanks, looking forward to that, will be in touch...21:13
anteayawhat needs does the foundation have here?21:13
anteayathe user stories are for the scientific working group's consumption I had thought21:13
b1airoglossary brochures by the sound of it :-)21:13
leongoneswig can you share the whitepaper/sutdy with cambridge?21:13
anteayab1airo: can't have too many of those21:13
oneswiganteaya: I'd say it's for anyone but the Scientific WG members21:14
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oneswigIn the sense that that would be preaching to the choir21:14
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oneswigIt's aim I think is to be outreach for organisations that could be considering this option21:14
anteayaoneswig: oh I mis-understood then21:14
LyleWintonagree with oneswig21:14
b1airobut you make a good point anteaya - the User Stories we want to define should be from the user base of the scientific-wg21:14
leongI think it will be great to produce a whitepaper talking about how OpenStack can support the HPC use case21:14
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LyleWintonWas the most frequent question after the scientific clouds panel in Austin, HPC and OS.21:15
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anteayab1airo: yes that was what I had thought I heard from the beginning21:15
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b1airoyeah, there's a big gap there - we should simply create a wiki.o.o/HPC in the mean time21:15
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anteayaLyleWinton: what was the most frequent question?21:15
b1airo"Can I do HPC with/on OS?"21:16
LyleWintonanteaya: questions regarding HPC and OS.21:16
anteayaLyleWinton: right21:16
anteayayes, that was what I had thought21:16
anteayaI just wonder where the foundation needs got in there?21:16
oneswigThe interesting item to discuss for this WG is what members of this group might be able to contribute as material that exemplifies how OpenStack can be configured to deliver HPC21:16
b1airoto which the answer is "yes, for some definitions of HPC and OS"21:17
oneswigb1airo: Right, but lets say the document sticks some stakes in the ground (helping to skirt that tar pit!)21:17
anteayab1airo: awesome and the user stories provide the definitions and examples, yeah?21:18
b1airoanteaya, i guess that would be ideal - but we need to define those...21:18
anteayaokay thanks21:19
oneswigI'm intending to produce with Cambridge a document that describes in some technical depth how a series of capabilities are delivered on OpenStack and introduce case studies and input from project leaders to reinforce21:19
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anteayaoneswig: can that be open sourced and considered a user story?21:19
b1airooneswig, by project leaders i guess you mean science projects that use the infrastructure21:19
oneswigyes and yes, that's what I menat :-)21:20
anteayaoneswig: awesome!21:20
anteayaI think that will make a great user story21:20
anteayaand help drive the conversation in this space when you lead by example21:20
oneswigThere would be a varying degree of reworking by the Foundation to make it into a freestanding whitepaper - or perhaps a set of connected chapters21:21
LyleWintonI have a slide (as of last night) on clusters/HPC cases in the NeCTAR research cloud.  11 specific cases I could follow up in more detail if needed.21:21
anteayaoneswig: 'reworking by the Foundation' what do you mean?21:21
oneswigLyleWinton: that's exactly the kind of material that would be help21:21
LyleWintonb1airo happens to be one of them ;)21:22
oneswiganteaya: I don't think anything i can produce matches the technical material the Foundation can produce, it'll need some polishing without doubt21:22
anteayaoneswig: as long as you have a licence on it that is one of our accepted open source licences it should be good21:22
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anteayaoneswig: ah let's not put the cart before the horse, I think if you open source what you produce for cambridge we can address any issues that arise21:23
anteayalet's not create obstacles before you begin21:23
oneswigEvery deliverable for this project is open source - terms of the contract21:23
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anteayaoneswig: awesome, makes it easy then21:23
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b1airoso should we have a 5 minute brainstorm on what some of our User Stories might be?21:24
oneswigGood idea21:24
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LyleWintonOther user stories do you mean b1airo:21:25
oneswigOne user story that is endless in its variation is cluster-as-a-service.  Is it possible to capture that in some constructive way and compare the ways?21:25
b1airo#idea I want to give users an easy on-demand HPC platform21:25
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b1airojinx oneswig21:26
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b1airoor perhaps from the user's perspective (i always think architect/operator) ?21:26
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LyleWintononeswig: we have a number of operators re-using patterns (orchestration scripts) created by other operators for building clusters, and several are in production use.21:27
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anteayawhat is your definition of cluster?21:28
oneswigLyleWinton: that's useful information.  And another way of doing it too.  Vive la difference21:28
anteayais a cloud a cluster?21:28
b1airo#idea I want to run my (persistent) HPC platform/service using OpenStack as the infrastructure provisioning system21:28
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oneswiganteaya: typically I'd say in scientific compute people would think of a workload manager queue system - typically SLURM21:29
LyleWintonanteaya: these are mostly HPC like clusters, slurm or torque front ended.21:29
b1airoanteaya, yes probably, but i think we're usually talking about HPCC (high performance cluster computing) when we say clusters - which means batch system and/or low-latency interconnect21:29
b1airogood to see we all agree on that :-)21:30
LyleWintonanteaya: but some of the users say "they aren't HPC" because they use general purpose cloud infrastructure. never stopped most researchers using the definition in the past, but it's a distinction21:30
oneswigThere's an open-ended discussion on how to count the ways, should we go onto idea 2?21:30
anteayathank you21:31
dfflandersPerhaps in addition to this ideas for the use cases you would like to have, would be to approach contacts from around the community and ask them to put forward use cases?  See what arises from requesting use cases be put forward from well known scientific users like CERN, NASA, NSA, Cambridge, etc.21:31
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oneswigdfflanders: that's a good point21:32
b1airodfflanders, definitely - but part of the problem i think we want to get towards solving today is figuring out a few examples to set the scene, else it's very open ended21:32
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b1airoso i said: "I want to run my (persistent) HPC platform/service using OpenStack as the infrastructure provisioning system" as a possible #2. thoughts?21:33
oneswigb1airo: how does OpenStack as an infrastructure provisioning system (idea 2) differ?21:33
dfflandersgoing to the users with some exemplars you'd like to achieve is a good approach imho.21:33
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oneswigIs this "I submit a job to SLURM, SLURM uses OpenStack to create infrastructure to run the job"?21:33
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b1airothat's distinct from HPC-aaS because the end-user does not necessarily see cloud anywhere21:33
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b1airooneswig, it could be that dynamic yes, or just that all the compute nodes managed by SLURM are running on an OS cloud21:34
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b1airowith operator controlled expansion/contraction21:34
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LyleWintonCould I offer a perspective on how this might look to the world.  scientific openstack = HPC !  Should we seek a different user story to HPC.21:35
b1airoand also typically a managed system, whereas HPC-aaS is usually fire and forget21:35
b1airoLyleWinton, for sure - getting there :-)21:36
sdake_dhellmann i'll pick up the tag reviews this week21:36
b1airoyou have #321:36
sdake_dhellmann apologies on lag, been super busy dealing with backlog21:36
sdake_which keeps getting longer and longer21:36
b1airooneswig, make sense?21:36
sdake_going wrong direction :(21:36
b1airosdake_, there's a meeting on in here :-)21:36
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rockygsdake:  could you be in the wrong channel?  Maybe you want openstack-release?21:37
oneswigI'm thinking ... what a nice way of hiding the details of a cloud-centric implementation21:37
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b1airoi think #2 is where HPFS is likely to come in too21:38
oneswigA discussion for a user story would be interesting and I'd be interested to see how it might hide the overhead of OpenStack infrastrcutre creation21:38
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rockygSo, in some ways, what I'm reading is that you folks are identifying "work loads" or "work flows" which the scientific community uses and you need to define what they look like on OS21:39
oneswigHPFS could cut across many use cases, lets not box it in21:39
b1airothat's true, but is that a use case on its own ?21:40
oneswigrockyg: I think so, there's an amount of transposition between the interactive and flexible world of cloud versus the fast-but-inflexible world that HPC has lived in thus far21:40
b1airoor does it just fit into various others ?21:40
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oneswigb1airo: perhaps discussion HPFS impelmentation strategies falls better as reference architecture than user story, could this be a distinction?21:41
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rockygthen another good set of user stories is how OS allows a team/multi-team to move from one format to another or live side by side on the same cloud....21:41
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LyleWintonOne of our use cases is a bit hybrid if you like. Automated Galaxy portal creation back-ended by clusterman HPC creation.21:42
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b1airorockyg, +121:42
LyleWintonrockyg +121:42
b1airooneswig, yes that sounds eminently sensible21:43
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LyleWintonrockyg: we may have stories where OS allows separate research project to live side by side, which is of significant research value21:43
b1airoLyleWinton, I think that's a great exemplar of #1 ?21:44
rockygoneswig, ++  so identify architectures, identify workloads, the boundaries of each and how to morph across them?21:44
b1airoGalaxy I mean21:44
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LyleWintonAh, yes, you're right21:45
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oneswigLyleWinton: The Galaxy project is a good example of how cloud can be used to deliver something better than matching the functionality of what came before.  I'd put it above cluster-as-a-service21:45
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LyleWintonb1airo: Oh, yes, it was one of the 11 that I was speaking of21:46
b1airoSo we might be slowly getting somewhere here :-) - sounds like we want use-cases with exemplars and reference architectures for specific capabilities ...?21:46
LyleWintononeswig: me too, but it's a cluster related pattern. One with a newer front end than slurm21:47
rockygblairo, ++  might be easier to start with exemplars and fit the defining bits around them21:47
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b1airorockyg, sure, either way is fine with me21:47
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anteayasounds like it would be up to the person who wants to write them21:48
rockygPick a set of projects, then figure out the buckets that are the same and the ones that are different.  Build the matrix, then reason about the info displayed21:48
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b1airoso just quickly, before we spend the last 10 minutes on this did anyone want to move on to other specific topics? i think this is a valuable discussion and happy to keep it going...21:48
anteayaI think that would depend on who is volunteering to do the work, so far it is oneswig21:48
anteayaso I'd say whatever he is most comfortable with21:49
b1airowe are more than open to having volunteers!21:49
oneswigI am definitely interested in hearing about volunteers to discuss areas of subject expertise!21:49
rockyganteaya, ++21:49
anteayab1airo: oh yes21:49
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oneswigI have your powerpoint in my sights Lyle :-)21:50
LyleWintonOn my todo list to send you!21:50
oneswigLyleWinton: thanks, appreciated21:50
oneswigb1airo: last ten minutes.21:51
oneswigAnything to report from last week21:51
b1airoyeah let's move on then21:51
b1airo#action Send summary of use-cases discussion to lists and seek input21:52
b1airoso i have a skeleton for the science cloud wiki page up: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Science_Clouds21:52
b1airo#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Science_Clouds21:52
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b1airostill need to transfer more of the actual list over and follow up on checking out some of the clouds that were listed at the bottom21:53
anteayathe table looks good21:53
b1airobut mainly interested in feedback around the "Science Cloud" definition21:53
anteayadid you mean for Grid500 to be in square brackets?21:54
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oneswigLooks good so far.  There are many Euro projects in this area I'm only dimly aware of21:54
b1airoanteaya: no, just a formatting glitch21:54
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anteayab1airo: okay great, the wiki has a preview button you might find handy21:54
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anteayaalso when editing a page it is helpful to add a note so you can find edits in the history21:55
b1airoi think the original etherpad was dfflanders brainchild but scientific-wg is best place to curate it from i guess21:55
anteayathe page looks good to me21:55
rockygSo, it sounds like this is more the Public Research cloud definition than Science21:56
anteayaI have something if we are in open discussion phase21:56
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b1airorockyg, what's the distinction there (especially, what do you mean by Public)?21:56
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b1airo#topic General21:57
*** openstack changes topic to "General (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:57
oneswigrockyg: It's interesting that there is a distinction.  Mostly the distinction is in who gets to use it perhaps?21:57
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oneswiganteaya: shoot21:57
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anteayathanks I have some suggestions for https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_working_group21:57
rockygWell, both are good questions.  The reason I said public research is specifically because of the footnote for "non-commercial"21:57
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anteayaput the history section above meetings and the meetings section as the last itme21:58
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anteayathen have the agendas in reverse chronological order, so the most recent agenda is at the top21:58
oneswiganteaya: no problem with that, makes sense to me21:58
LyleWintonFeedback on wiki page. Not sure if research "data" needs mentioning explicitly.21:58
anteayathe page will get very long very fast21:58
b1airorockyg, ahh right - i meant not-for-profit cloud infrastructure, not clear enough i guess21:58
anteayaoneswig: thanks21:58
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anteayaoneswig: I think it will improve useabiltiy once you have 30 or so meeting agendas in there21:58
oneswiganteaya: by that point perhaps all but the most recent meetings ought to be punted onto another page?21:59
b1airoi think we should just cap the number of agendas there21:59
leongthat might also be different for "community science cloud" whereby it is only used by a subset of universities but not offered to "public consumption"21:59
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anteayalet's not plan on that21:59
anteayalet's plan for what we have now21:59
rockygleong, ++21:59
anteayaand then make changes once we have something concrete22:00
b1airooneswig, better yet, we just dump the agenda into the IRC history and let that be the Internet reference for it (then delete from the wiki)22:00
anteayab1airo: there you go22:00
oneswigb1airo: seems OK to me, no value in keeping it for too long22:00
rockygblairo ++22:00
b1airojust creating work for ourselves in shuffling content around22:00
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anteayatechnical committee and infra just change the same agenda in place: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee22:01
anteayaand link to the meeting logs22:01
oneswigtime's up22:01
anteayathank you22:01
oneswigthanks everyone22:01
b1airoso it is!22:01
anteayalovely meeting22:01
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b1airothanks all22:01
oneswiguntil next time!22:01
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rockygThanks all!22:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 31 22:01:44 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-05-31-21.02.html22:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-05-31-21.02.txt22:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-05-31-21.02.log.html22:01
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lifelessdims: thanks22:50
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