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| hongbin | #startmeeting zun | 03:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 03:00:09 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 03:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 03:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'zun' | 03:00 |
| hongbin | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2016-07-05_0300_UTC Today's agenda | 03:00 |
| hongbin | #topic Roll Call | 03:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:00 | |
| mkrai | Madhuri Kumari | 03:00 |
| Wenzhi | Wenzhi Yu | 03:00 |
| shubhams | Shubham sharma | 03:00 |
| Vivek_ | Vivek Jain | 03:00 |
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| sudipto | o/ | 03:01 |
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| hongbin | Thanks for joining the meeting mkrai Wenzhi shubhams Vivek_ sudipto | 03:01 |
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| hongbin | #topic Announcements | 03:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:02 | |
| flwang1 | o/ | 03:02 |
| hongbin | The python-zunclient repo was created! | 03:02 |
| yanyanhu | hi | 03:02 |
| hongbin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317699/ | 03:02 |
| hongbin | #link https://github.com/openstack/python-zunclient | 03:02 |
| hongbin | Thanks mkrai for creating the repo | 03:02 |
| mkrai | hongbin, :) | 03:03 |
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| hongbin | flwang1: yanyanhu hey | 03:03 |
| yanyanhu | :) | 03:03 |
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| hongbin | Any question about the python-zunclient repo ? | 03:03 |
| mkrai | service-list command is now supported | 03:03 |
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| mkrai | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/337360/ | 03:04 |
| hongbin | Great! | 03:04 |
| Wenzhi | great! will try zunclient later | 03:04 |
| shubhams | I will check and confirm | 03:04 |
| mkrai | Thanks! | 03:04 |
| hongbin | #topic Review Action Items | 03:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:04 | |
| hongbin | hongbin draft a spec for design option 1.1 (Work In Progress) | 03:04 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-design-spec | 03:04 |
| hongbin | I will continue to work on the etherpad this week | 03:05 |
| hongbin | You are welcome to collaborate :) | 03:05 |
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| yanyanhu | looks great | 03:05 |
| hongbin | thanks | 03:05 |
| hongbin | I will leave the etherpad offline | 03:06 |
| hongbin | #topic Architecture design | 03:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Architecture design (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:06 | |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-architecture-decisions | 03:06 |
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| hongbin | At the last meeting, we decided to choose option #1.1 | 03:06 |
| hongbin | I want to confirm it again | 03:07 |
| hongbin | Is everyone on the same page? | 03:07 |
| yanyanhu | yes, I think so :) | 03:07 |
| shubhams | Yes | 03:07 |
| Wenzhi | +1 | 03:07 |
| mkrai | +1 | 03:07 |
| hongbin | Anyone want a clarification. Now it is hte time | 03:07 |
| hongbin | OK. Looks everyone agree | 03:08 |
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| hongbin | Then, we will work according to the decision | 03:08 |
| hongbin | #topic API design | 03:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "API design (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:08 | |
| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/api-design The BP | 03:08 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-api Etherpad | 03:08 |
| hongbin | mkrai: I gave the stage to you :) | 03:09 |
| mkrai | hongbin, Thanks | 03:09 |
| mkrai | I have started creating spec for zun API according to our design | 03:09 |
| mkrai | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-api-spec | 03:09 |
| mkrai | I want everyone to please have a look | 03:09 |
| mkrai | And feel free to add to it | 03:10 |
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| mkrai | According to our discussion, in our first implementation we will support docker and later COEs | 03:10 |
| flwang1 | mkrai: just had a quick glance | 03:10 |
| flwang1 | i think at the init stage | 03:10 |
| flwang1 | we don't have to care about the details of each api endpoint | 03:11 |
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| flwang1 | we need to figure out the resource asap | 03:11 |
| hongbin | Yes, agree | 03:11 |
| flwang1 | and define the details later | 03:11 |
| mkrai | Yes it will generally evolve flwang1 | 03:11 |
| mkrai | Ok that will be helpful for me too :) | 03:11 |
| mkrai | I will add all the resources this week | 03:12 |
| flwang1 | since it's easy to define the action if we can figure out the objects/resources | 03:12 |
| mkrai | That's all from my side | 03:12 |
| flwang1 | and a relationship between each resources will be lovely | 03:12 |
| mkrai | Sure I will add that | 03:13 |
| sudipto | yeah and given that we have two overlapping runtimes, i wanted to understand if everyone feels - we should look for an overlap - or should we be more like - building our stuff around one runtime - support it well - and then move to the other? | 03:13 |
| hongbin | sudipto: good question | 03:13 |
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| mkrai | We should abstract container runtimes also | 03:14 |
| flwang1 | sudipto: define the two runtimes? you mean container and COE? | 03:14 |
| mkrai | docker and rocket | 03:14 |
| sudipto | flwang1, sorry should have been clearer. I meant docker and rkt | 03:14 |
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| sudipto | my point being, is there a need to build both of these API supports simultaneously? (I'd be clear i have no bias towards either) | 03:15 |
| mkrai | IMO it is not good to have different set of APIs for container runtimes even. | 03:15 |
| sudipto | it is not about two different set of APIs | 03:15 |
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| sudipto | think about libvirt being the driver nova was built on and later VMWare was added...if that serves as a good analogy | 03:16 |
| Wenzhi | one set of API, two different drivers? | 03:16 |
| sudipto | Wenzhi, yeah it will be one set of APIs only. However, you will probably have NotImplementedError() for the one that doesn't support it. | 03:17 |
| hongbin | sudipto: you mean two set of APIs for docker and rkt? or two set of APIs for runtimes and COEs? | 03:17 |
| sudipto | hongbin, two set of APIs for runtimes and COEs... | 03:17 |
| hongbin | sudipto: I see | 03:17 |
| hongbin | sudipto: It looks you challenge the design option 1.1 :) | 03:17 |
| hongbin | sudipto: but let's discuss it | 03:17 |
| sudipto | hongbin, no, i don't think i am challenging that :) | 03:18 |
| sudipto | hongbin, i am just sticking to the API design discussion... | 03:18 |
| sudipto | anyway, i think we can take it offline... | 03:18 |
| hongbin | sudipto: ok. could you clarify ? | 03:18 |
| sudipto | on the etherpad that is... | 03:18 |
| sudipto | basically - should be building around OCI/CNCF? | 03:19 |
| sudipto | *we | 03:19 |
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| hongbin | If collaboration between OCI/CNCF is possible, I am open to that | 03:19 |
| sudipto | and my point in a more crude way was - if docker supports x y z APIs - should we be building the same x y z for rocket and through a NotImplementedError() | 03:20 |
| hongbin | That mean we needs to figure out something, and propose it to OCI/CNCF? or just imeplement whatever OCI/CNCF? | 03:20 |
| sudipto | maybe mkrai is right - we should probably abstract it at a level - where there is a overlap | 03:21 |
| sudipto | my only concern is - we shouldn't end up doing things not so well for either runtimes...that's all | 03:21 |
| hongbin | Yes, that is one option | 03:21 |
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| hongbin | eliqiao: hey | 03:21 |
| sudipto | hongbin, i will take this on the etherpad and with you and mkrai later, don't want to derail the meeting over it :) | 03:22 |
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| flwang1 | focus on docker, my 0.02 | 03:22 |
| hongbin | sudipto: well, I don't have much items to discuss later :) | 03:22 |
| sudipto | flwang1, yeah i think i meant something like that :) as in the focus bit :) | 03:22 |
| sudipto | don't end up being a place where nothing works well... | 03:23 |
| sudipto | Also, important to refer to what version of remote APIs we will support. | 03:23 |
| mkrai | Do we agree to concentrate on docker now? | 03:23 |
| mkrai | sudipto, the latest one? | 03:24 |
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| sudipto | mkrai,yeah mostly, but document per say - latest would be a good to cite in numbers. | 03:24 |
| sudipto | since the API updates are pretty frequent | 03:24 |
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| mkrai | Ok | 03:24 |
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| hongbin | well, I compared the APIs of docekr and rkt | 03:25 |
| hongbin | obviously, docker have double APIs operations than rkt | 03:25 |
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| hongbin | However, the basic looks the same | 03:25 |
| mkrai | Agree hongbin | 03:25 |
| hongbin | e.g. start, stop, logs, .... | 03:25 |
| sudipto | hongbin, mkrai so we would look at mostly the basic operations? | 03:25 |
| sudipto | i was more looking at a thing like docker attach for instance... | 03:26 |
| sudipto | do you consider that basic or necessary? | 03:26 |
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| hongbin | This is a challenging question | 03:26 |
| mkrai | The basic ones | 03:26 |
| shubhams | I think that we should focus on necessary | 03:27 |
| flwang1 | docker the target, but we can implement it in several stages | 03:27 |
| flwang1 | that said | 03:27 |
| mkrai | Yes the basic ones first and later the necessary ones | 03:27 |
| flwang1 | at 1st stage, implement the basic(common) api between docker and rokect | 03:28 |
| eliqiao | agreed. | 03:28 |
| flwang1 | and then adding more | 03:28 |
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| shubhams | agree | 03:28 |
| flwang1 | that's not a problem | 03:28 |
| sudipto | sounds good! | 03:28 |
| hongbin | wfm | 03:28 |
| mkrai | +1 | 03:28 |
| mkrai | hongbin, please mark it as agreed | 03:29 |
| hongbin | Everyone agree? | 03:29 |
| namrata | agreed | 03:29 |
| * sudipto is worried for the future, but agrees in the present | 03:29 | |
| hongbin | #agreed I think there are two general approach to define the API at the beginning, and then adding more later | 03:29 |
| Wenzhi | so we agreed on one set of container runtime API and two different drivers(for docker and rkt)? | 03:29 |
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| hongbin | sudipto: We can discuss it further later | 03:30 |
| sudipto | hongbin, yeah sounds good. | 03:30 |
| hongbin | Wenzhi: One thing one set of API for both docker and rkt | 03:30 |
| hongbin | For the runtimes and COEs, we can discuss if it is one set of APIs or two set | 03:31 |
| hongbin | sudipto: We have plenty of time, we can touch this topic a bit here? | 03:31 |
| mkrai | I think it will be very difficult to abstract COE and container runtime | 03:32 |
| sudipto | hongbin, you mean the COE API design? | 03:32 |
| hongbin | yes | 03:32 |
| hongbin | sudipto: you seem to propose one set of APIs for COEs and runtimes? | 03:32 |
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| sudipto | hongbin, no no, i don't think it is to overlap them | 03:33 |
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| sudipto | flwang1, the other day had a mention of the vmware apis in nova - i thought you meant something like managing a cluster with the same set of apis - that a compute driver like libvirt would support? | 03:34 |
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| flwang1 | maybe i missed something, but i think we're not going to create one set API to fit both container and COE | 03:34 |
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| flwang1 | IMHO, we do need a group/set of api for container and one for COE, and the hard part is not on the container part | 03:35 |
| mkrai | Yes flwang1 | 03:35 |
| flwang1 | the hard part is the COE part | 03:35 |
| hongbin | Yes, possibly need another etherpad for COE | 03:35 |
| flwang1 | because, we're going to have a native COE and the other COE support may from magnum | 03:35 |
| flwang1 | so how to work out a group/set of api to make everybody happy is the hard part, does that make sense? | 03:36 |
| flwang1 | or i'm making it mess ;) | 03:36 |
| sudipto | yeah it is not just hard, it's like probably impossible. | 03:36 |
| mkrai | Each COE has different resources, so different set of APIs for each COE | 03:36 |
| mkrai | sudipto, I agree with you | 03:36 |
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| mkrai | hongbin, I think its better to create an etherpad for all COE APIs | 03:37 |
| mkrai | And then try to take out some common if possible | 03:37 |
| flwang1 | hah, i think that's the interesting part of software design :) | 03:37 |
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| flwang1 | since we have to compromise | 03:38 |
| hongbin | #action hongbin create an etherpad for the COE API design | 03:38 |
| Wenzhi | different set of APIs for each COE is not beautiful I think | 03:38 |
| flwang1 | or i would say balance | 03:38 |
| sudipto | you will be biased in such a case, i think that's fine though ;) | 03:38 |
| flwang1 | figure out a balance point between the reality and the design | 03:38 |
| hongbin | I think the hardest part is that almost everyone is using native COE API, how to convince them to use our API is the question | 03:39 |
| sudipto | hongbin, ++ | 03:39 |
| sudipto | that's my primary concern | 03:39 |
| hongbin | Frankly, I don't have an answer for that | 03:39 |
| hongbin | Unless, we make it much simpler or more high-level or somthing | 03:40 |
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| shubhams | hongbin : its only possible if we provide wrapper over existing coe and that wrapper should be same for each COE to end user/customer for all | 03:40 |
| Wenzhi | unless we can unify them, or I don't think people will use a cmd like zun k8s XXX | 03:40 |
| shubhams | Wenzhi : yeah right | 03:41 |
| flwang1 | hongbin: i don't think that's a really problem IMHO | 03:41 |
| hongbin | flwang1: why? | 03:41 |
| flwang1 | the main target user of Zun is the application developer, not operator | 03:41 |
| flwang1 | do you remember our discussion about the user case of Zun? | 03:41 |
| hongbin | yes | 03:41 |
| flwang1 | IMHO, it's like: As a user, i want to create a container | 03:42 |
| flwang1 | then i can manage its lifecycle with zun's api/client | 03:42 |
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| flwang1 | if | 03:42 |
| hongbin | As a user, I want to replicate my container to N | 03:42 |
| flwang1 | the user also want to create container based on a COE cluster | 03:42 |
| hongbin | Another use case? | 03:43 |
| flwang1 | and the cloud provider didn't provide it | 03:43 |
| flwang1 | then he may have to play with the COE API | 03:43 |
| flwang1 | then that's users choice | 03:43 |
| flwang1 | if we're doing bad job | 03:43 |
| flwang1 | then don't expect user will use zun's api to talk with COE | 03:44 |
| flwang1 | i think that's fair enough | 03:44 |
| hongbin | Yes, this area needs more thinking | 03:44 |
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| hongbin | I am still struggle to figure it out | 03:44 |
| flwang1 | imagine a supermarket A has good price and service, why do you want to chose B? | 03:44 |
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| mkrai | I think user would want to use Zun if they want to run COEs on container infrastructure | 03:45 |
| flwang1 | unless B has better price and service | 03:45 |
| mkrai | Sorry *openstack infrastructure | 03:45 |
| flwang1 | mkrai: yep, the good gene of zun is, it's the native container api of openstack | 03:46 |
| flwang1 | it should know more about the infra than the COE itself | 03:47 |
| hongbin | Yes, that is a point | 03:47 |
| sudipto | mkrai, that's a weak case at the moment... since the direction is more towards making openstack as an app on kubernetes :) If i read through the SIG discussions right. | 03:47 |
| flwang1 | in other words, we can provide better integration with other services | 03:47 |
| sudipto | however, that doesn't mean the other way around is not possible, | 03:47 |
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| sudipto | and it's probably good for people who already have invest heavily on openstack to try out containers as well. | 03:47 |
| hongbin | How to make COE integrate well with OpenStack? | 03:48 |
| hongbin | I think it is not our job to teach operators to how enable Kuryr in COE? | 03:49 |
| hongbin | If Kuryr/neutron is not configured in COE, Zun cannot use it | 03:49 |
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| hongbin | Same for Cinder, Keystone, ... | 03:50 |
| hongbin | OK. Looks like we need to take the discussion to an etherpad | 03:51 |
| hongbin | #topic Open Discussion | 03:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:51 | |
| mkrai | I have a concern on managing state of containers | 03:51 |
| mkrai | Are we planning to manage it in Zun db? | 03:51 |
| hongbin | mkrai: I think yes | 03:52 |
| hongbin | mkrai: Although we need to reconsider the "db" | 03:52 |
| mkrai | How do we sync it will container runtime? | 03:52 |
| hongbin | mkrai: I think etcd will be better | 03:52 |
| mkrai | s/will//with | 03:52 |
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| yuanying | etcd +1 | 03:52 |
| hongbin | mkrai: I think it is similar as how Nova sync with VMs | 03:53 |
| sudipto | I certainly have a strong feeling that we shouldn't treat containers and VMs similarly. | 03:53 |
| mkrai | Ok sounds good | 03:53 |
| Wenzhi | we can sync them with a periodic task maybe | 03:53 |
| sudipto | the state sync in VMs can be asynchronous - you might end up killing a container before that happens :) | 03:53 |
| hongbin | sudipto: OK. I think it is like how kubelet sync with containers :) | 03:54 |
| sudipto | as in containers could be very short lived as well. | 03:54 |
| sudipto | hongbin, hah ok. | 03:54 |
| sudipto | mkrai, were you inclined towards something like a distributed db? like yuanying pointed out? | 03:54 |
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| hongbin | but agree, containers are started and stopped very frequently, so db is not the right choice | 03:55 |
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| Wenzhi | sounds reasonable ^^ | 03:55 |
| mkrai | Yes | 03:56 |
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| hongbin | OK. sound like an agree? | 03:56 |
| hongbin | silient.... | 03:57 |
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| sudipto | agreed., | 03:57 |
| yuanying | agree | 03:57 |
| hongbin | :) | 03:57 |
| mkrai | +1 | 03:58 |
| Wenzhi | +1 we need a db operation implementation for etcd backend | 03:58 |
| yuanying | And also what about to re-consider "rabbitMQ"? | 03:58 |
| shubhams | +1 | 03:58 |
| hongbin | #agreed store container state at etcd instead of db | 03:58 |
| hongbin | yuanying: Yes, I am thinking about the message queue as well | 03:58 |
| hongbin | yuanying: what do you think? | 03:59 |
| yuanying | taskflow also uses kvs for message passing | 03:59 |
| yuanying | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/TaskFlow | 03:59 |
| yuanying | We can implements conductor on KVS | 03:59 |
| hongbin | OK. TIme is up. We can re-discuss the rabbitmq in the ML or next meeting | 04:00 |
| hongbin | All, thanks for joining hte meeting | 04:00 |
| mkrai | Thanks everyone | 04:00 |
| hongbin | #endmeeting | 04:00 |
| yuanying | thanks | 04:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 04:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 04:00:32 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 04:00 |
| Wenzhi | thanks | 04:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-07-05-03.00.html | 04:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-07-05-03.00.txt | 04:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-07-05-03.00.log.html | 04:00 |
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| loquacities | hi! anyone here for the install guide meeting? | 06:00 |
| ildikov | o/ | 06:00 |
| loquacities | #startmeeting docinstallteam | 06:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 06:00:29 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is loquacities. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 06:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 06:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'docinstallteam' | 06:00 |
| loquacities | hi ildikov :) | 06:00 |
| ildikov | hi :) | 06:00 |
| loquacities | anyone else here? | 06:01 |
| AJaeger | morning | 06:01 |
| loquacities | hi AJaeger | 06:01 |
| katomo | hi loquacities | 06:01 |
| loquacities | hi katomo | 06:01 |
| strigazi | Spyros Trigazis (magnum) | 06:01 |
| loquacities | hi strigazi | 06:01 |
| loquacities | that looks like a quorum to me, let's get started :) | 06:01 |
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| loquacities | #topic Draft index page | 06:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Draft index page (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:01 | |
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| loquacities | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/331704 | 06:01 |
| loquacities | this is the current patch for the draft index page | 06:02 |
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| AJaeger | thanks for that page. It's something to get us started but far too long. You miss the different OSes. | 06:02 |
| loquacities | you can see the built pages here: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/04/331704/4/check/gate-openstack-manuals-tox-doc-publish-checkbuild/9c63720//publish-docs/www/draft/draft-index.html and here http://docs-draft.openstack.org/04/331704/4/check/gate-openstack-manuals-tox-doc-publish-checkbuild/9c63720//publish-docs/www/project-install-guide/draft/index.html | 06:02 |
| loquacities | AJaeger: yes, i agree | 06:02 |
| loquacities | but i also think we need to merge *something* | 06:02 |
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| loquacities | we can't bikeshed on this forever | 06:02 |
| AJaeger | loquacities: I'm fine with merging now - and refine then. | 06:03 |
| AJaeger | But if we merge now, let's put an item on our todo list: Rework index page ;) | 06:03 |
| loquacities | yes, i think that's a good plan | 06:03 |
| katomo | +1 | 06:03 |
| loquacities | all those in favour say aye? | 06:03 |
| strigazi | +1 | 06:04 |
| loquacities | #action AJaeger to merge #331704 | 06:04 |
| ildikov | +1 to get progress and refine later :) | 06:04 |
| loquacities | #action loquacities to add 'refine index page' to to do list | 06:04 |
| loquacities | awesome, thanks everyone | 06:04 |
| loquacities | #topic Use of the ``only`` directive | 06:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Use of the ``only`` directive (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:04 | |
| loquacities | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2016-July/008804.html | 06:05 |
| loquacities | i'd like to get some opinions on this | 06:05 |
| loquacities | i can see how restricting use of only can make life a lot easier for us | 06:05 |
| * AJaeger said everything in his emails - or should I state again here? | 06:05 | |
| loquacities | AJaeger: hopefully everyone has read the thread | 06:06 |
| ildikov | I've worked on the Ceilometer content and we have quite many files and I didn't even add Debian as we didn't have instructions for that in many places | 06:06 |
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| loquacities | what i'm mainly concerned about is how many projects will want to use only, and will us saying not to use it make life difficult for everyone? | 06:06 |
| ildikov | so for some projects we might think about proposing structure as well as if someone just adds all the files that will be a mess | 06:06 |
| loquacities | ildikov: proposing a structure that uses only? | 06:07 |
| ildikov | loquacities: no a structure if we remove only | 06:07 |
| loquacities | oh, right | 06:07 |
| strigazi | ildikov: can share some patches to see the files? | 06:07 |
| ildikov | loquacities: I mean how to organize the files in a digestible way kind of thing | 06:07 |
| loquacities | right, that makes sense | 06:07 |
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| loquacities | isn't that what the cookiecutter already does, though? | 06:08 |
| AJaeger | the coookiecutter template does not use only - so that's one structure to use. | 06:08 |
| ildikov | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330051/ | 06:08 |
| ildikov | sorry, it wasn't handy, the Ceilo files ^ | 06:08 |
| loquacities | is the cookiecutter structure not sufficient? | 06:08 |
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| strigazi | ildikov: thx | 06:09 |
| ildikov | loquacities: I'll check the latest | 06:09 |
| loquacities | ok | 06:10 |
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| loquacities | so, is the sensible path forward to say no ``only`` for now, and let's review in six months? | 06:10 |
| ildikov | loquacities: my only concern is that it's not always easy to get people update the docs and if they don't feel comfortable as the structure is not straight forward then it's not really a win either | 06:10 |
| loquacities | just to simplify things for us at least in the short term while we find our feet | 06:10 |
| loquacities | ildikov: is the cookiecutter structure not appropriate then? | 06:11 |
| loquacities | do we need to work on that some more? | 06:11 |
| ildikov | loquacities: from build job, etc. perspective it's fine to remove "only" | 06:11 |
| loquacities | right | 06:11 |
| ildikov | loquacities: I'll check and come back if I have any better idea | 06:11 |
| loquacities | ok | 06:11 |
| loquacities | do we have a consensus on cutting out only use for now, and reviewing later? | 06:12 |
| strigazi | ildikov: if you put the files in dirs? would that help? eg one dir for install-nove | 06:12 |
| ildikov | loquacities: let's leave it how it is now and iterate if I or anyone else has suggestions as I'm not even sure it's good enough how the Ceilometer structure looks right now | 06:12 |
| AJaeger | ildikov: Yes, I agree with the straightforward structure. I fear with using only it gets more complex. loquacities, could you review the current structure and see whether we can make it better, please? | 06:12 |
| strigazi | loquacities: +1 | 06:12 |
| loquacities | #action ildikov to review cookiecutter structure | 06:12 |
| ildikov | strigazi: I have folders already | 06:12 |
| loquacities | #action loquacities to review cookiecutter structure | 06:12 |
| loquacities | sure :) | 06:12 |
| strigazi | ildikov: oh yes, sorry | 06:13 |
| loquacities | maybe we should get a good IA involved here too. darrenc maybe, if he has time? | 06:13 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: yeah, I think what we can do here is to choose one option and get the best out of it | 06:13 |
| loquacities | ok, so i think we have a plan of action here, anyway | 06:13 |
| loquacities | i'll update the ML with a 'don't use only for now' message, and add it to my newsletter this week | 06:13 |
| loquacities | and we can review the cookiecutter to see if we can improve it | 06:14 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: mixing up the two looks messy, I think we all agree on that | 06:14 |
| loquacities | +1 | 06:14 |
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| katomo | +1 | 06:14 |
| loquacities | #action loquacities to message about not using only | 06:14 |
| AJaeger | ildikov: I don't want to mix them up, no worries. | 06:14 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: I just raise my concerns here as I don't want to be the only person updating the Ceilo install guide for the rest of my life as others don't get the structure, but I might just overcomplicate it :) | 06:15 |
| loquacities | ildikov: you need an apprentice! | 06:16 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: coolio :) | 06:16 |
| AJaeger | ildikov: that's why I'm happy to hear that others will take a look at your change and cookiecutter - we need to keep it simple. | 06:16 |
| ildikov | loquacities: good idea | 06:16 |
| loquacities | ok, final thing on the agenda ... | 06:17 |
| loquacities | #topic work items | 06:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "work items (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:17 | |
| loquacities | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/InstallGuideWorkItems | 06:17 |
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| loquacities | i've gone through and updated this, and we're a good way through the list now | 06:17 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: agreed, tnx | 06:17 |
| loquacities | AJaeger: what needs to be done on the ops:docs:install-guide tag ? | 06:18 |
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| AJaeger | loquacities: somebody needs to talk with operators or with Tom Fifield directly. | 06:18 |
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| loquacities | well, thingee has his name up there | 06:19 |
| loquacities | maybe we should reach out to him? | 06:19 |
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| AJaeger | loquacities: the operators are in charge of that tag. | 06:19 |
| loquacities | hrm, ok | 06:19 |
| AJaeger | loquacities: if it's his name, then try him first;) | 06:19 |
| loquacities | heh | 06:19 |
| loquacities | ok, i might send mail, but i'll copy you in because i don't fully understand what needs to happen here | 06:20 |
| ildikov | they should get together this week I think due to OpenStack Days in that area | 06:20 |
| loquacities | i think that and the testing scripts are about all that's left on this list that hasn't been started now | 06:20 |
| ildikov | so if you can reach out to them they might get a chance to discuss it face to face, I mean Mike and Tom | 06:20 |
| loquacities | which is pretty awesome, really | 06:20 |
| loquacities | ildikov: oh, good plan | 06:20 |
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| loquacities | i'll send that email today before i finish, then | 06:20 |
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| ildikov | coolio :) | 06:21 |
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| strigazi | loquacities: about the launch an instance section | 06:22 |
| loquacities | yes? | 06:22 |
| strigazi | I sent an email the other day, should I push in openstack manuals | 06:22 |
| strigazi | or we are going to move that section as well? | 06:22 |
| strigazi | to project repos | 06:23 |
| loquacities | i think i missed this email, sorry | 06:23 |
| AJaeger | strigazi: Why do you want to move it? | 06:23 |
| loquacities | ah, found it | 06:23 |
| loquacities | it got lost in all the only emails ;) | 06:23 |
| AJaeger | It fits IMHO perfectly into what we have... | 06:23 |
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| strigazi | ok | 06:24 |
| AJaeger | For magnum, I guess, you'll want to have a sepcific "launch a container" section. | 06:24 |
| loquacities | that would be considered core services, i think ... | 06:24 |
| strigazi | it's launch a COE :) | 06:24 |
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| strigazi | loquacities: so what I should do? | 06:25 |
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| strigazi | push in our repo? | 06:26 |
| loquacities | i think AJaeger is right to leave it where it is | 06:26 |
| loquacities | in our repo | 06:26 |
| AJaeger | strigazi: push it in your repo - and I suggest that we revisit this in a couple of weeks again and see how it looks like. | 06:26 |
| strigazi | under install-guide? | 06:27 |
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| AJaeger | IMHO we need the complete guide first up and then might need to consolidate | 06:27 |
| loquacities | right | 06:27 |
| AJaeger | strigazi: yes, under install-guide | 06:27 |
| strigazi | AJaeger: makes sense | 06:27 |
| loquacities | any other businesS? | 06:27 |
| ildikov | we discussed one more topic in the mails last week | 06:28 |
| ildikov | which was how to organize docs in the project repos | 06:28 |
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| ildikov | we agreed on having the install-guide folder and the doc folder co-existing | 06:28 |
| loquacities | oh, right, yeah | 06:28 |
| loquacities | yeah, moving everything under /doc is appealing, but i think it's a huge scale change | 06:29 |
| ildikov | I think it would be good to revisit this later as well and try to have one doc folder | 06:29 |
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| ildikov | we can have this as a cross-project topic | 06:29 |
| loquacities | probably sensible | 06:29 |
| katomo | yeah | 06:29 |
| ildikov | but as I said in the mails it's not that urgent, although I think it would be beneficial long term | 06:30 |
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| AJaeger | ildikov: My assumption is that we have several books - developer guides, install-guide, api-ref. | 06:30 |
| AJaeger | Each of them gets published to a different place. | 06:30 |
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| katomo | ildikov: +1 | 06:30 |
| AJaeger | So, we cannot have a single doc/source directory to publish all of them with one sphinx invocation. | 06:30 |
| AJaeger | doc/source for developer docs;doc/install-guide;doc/api-ref; looks very strange to me. | 06:31 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: I guess we can have a doc/<name-of-teh-guide>/source or something similar structure | 06:31 |
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| AJaeger | And I don't want to rename developer docs - accross all OPenStack repos... | 06:31 |
| loquacities | yeah, that's my main concern too | 06:31 |
| AJaeger | So, this would work: doc/developer for developer docs;doc/install-guide;doc/api-ref - but that's a lot rename from doc/source to doc/developer/source | 06:31 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: openstack manuals is using mostly sphinx as well and has a good structure | 06:32 |
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| AJaeger | ildikov: but has not doc/source | 06:32 |
| katomo | hmmm... | 06:32 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: I understand your concern, but it's not a big restructuring, although in lots of repos | 06:32 |
| ildikov | if we consider moving more content to project trees, then I still think one folder is more reasonable | 06:33 |
| AJaeger | ildikov: If you get it done, I'm happy to review - but this is task that I don't want to push ;) | 06:33 |
| ildikov | but we don't necessarily have to solve this today | 06:33 |
| loquacities | heh | 06:33 |
| AJaeger | ildikov: yes, it's only a move - if we change anything we need to see how it integrates with CI scripts and how to have consistency accross repos | 06:33 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: I'm happy to at least try and if we get too much push back then we can be relaxed that it's a community decision :) | 06:34 |
| loquacities | +1 | 06:34 |
| loquacities | i think this needs to be brought up in a cross-project meeting | 06:34 |
| AJaeger | ildikov: go for it ;) But let's not block us on this, please (and I don't see us blocking right now) | 06:34 |
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| ildikov | AJaeger: of course, my plan wasn't to secretly ruin the whole docs build ;) | 06:34 |
| loquacities | although i never seem to get to those any more ... | 06:34 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: so +1 on that | 06:34 |
| loquacities | lol | 06:35 |
| loquacities | #topic open discussion | 06:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:35 | |
| loquacities | anything else? | 06:35 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: again, I think it's more a long term task, so I'll try to put some plan together and we can discuss it on the next Summit also as a cross-project topic maybe | 06:36 |
| AJaeger | loquacities: which chapters still need moving to project repos? | 06:36 |
| loquacities | swift, and manila, i think? | 06:36 |
| loquacities | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330070/ | 06:36 |
| loquacities | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317152/ | 06:36 |
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| strigazi | Yes, that is all | 06:37 |
| AJaeger | manila uses only AFAIU. | 06:37 |
| loquacities | ah | 06:38 |
| katomo | ToT | 06:38 |
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| AJaeger | hope that those two will be merged for our next meeting. I suggest to help reviewing - and ping for core reviews once we're happy. | 06:39 |
| loquacities | ah, yes, it does | 06:39 |
| loquacities | do we need to discuss this with goutham? | 06:39 |
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| loquacities | will it be a problem having only in there? | 06:40 |
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| katomo | become complex... | 06:42 |
| AJaeger | loquacities: do you want to open the discussion from earlier again? I thought we had consensus to not use only for now - and revisit later | 06:42 |
| loquacities | well, that's my point | 06:42 |
| loquacities | we have consensus to not use it, so why should we merge the manila patch? | 06:43 |
| loquacities | shouldn't we be asking goutham to remove it? | 06:43 |
| AJaeger | loquacities: Oh, I misunderstood you -yes, we should ask him. | 06:43 |
| katomo | ah | 06:43 |
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| loquacities | ok, i'll reach out to him | 06:44 |
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| AJaeger | thanks | 06:44 |
| katomo | thanks | 06:44 |
| loquacities | np | 06:44 |
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| loquacities | #action loquacities to chat to goutham about use of only in manila patch 317152 | 06:44 |
| loquacities | ok, anything else? | 06:44 |
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| loquacities | or can i give you 16 minutes back | 06:44 |
| loquacities | ? | 06:45 |
| AJaeger | 15 mins, please ;) | 06:45 |
| katomo | nothing from me. | 06:45 |
| loquacities | yay! | 06:45 |
| ildikov | :) | 06:45 |
| loquacities | thanks for attending everyone :) | 06:45 |
| katomo | we get 15 mins ! | 06:45 |
| strigazi | bye | 06:45 |
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| loquacities | #endmeeting | 06:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 06:45 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 06:45:32 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 06:45 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-07-05-06.00.html | 06:45 |
| katomo | thanks, all | 06:45 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-07-05-06.00.txt | 06:45 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-07-05-06.00.log.html | 06:45 |
| ildikov | thanks! | 06:45 |
| AJaeger | have a great day/night etc everybody | 06:45 |
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| saggi | #startmeeting smaug | 09:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 09:00:14 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is saggi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 09:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 09:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 09:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'smaug' | 09:00 |
| saggi | hi everyone | 09:00 |
| yuval | hello | 09:00 |
| yinwei_computer | hi | 09:00 |
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| saggi | is it just the 3 of us? | 09:01 |
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| yinwei_computer | not sure | 09:01 |
| oshidoshi | o/ | 09:01 |
| chenpengzi | hi | 09:01 |
| yuval | chenying, chenzeng and xiangxinyong will not arrive | 09:01 |
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| zhonghua-lee | hi | 09:02 |
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| saggi | OK, let's start. They all can look at the logs later. | 09:02 |
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| saggi | #topic Core Nomination | 09:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Core Nomination (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 09:02 | |
| smile-luobin | hi | 09:02 |
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| saggi | I would like to nominate yinwei_computer as a core team member for Smaug. She has been one of the leading minds on the project from the start and I think she deserves it. | 09:03 |
| oshidoshi | +1 | 09:04 |
| yuval | +1 | 09:04 |
| smile-luobin | +1 | 09:04 |
| zhonghua-lee | though i am not core, +1 | 09:04 |
| chenpengzi | +1 | 09:04 |
| saggi | I think that's unanimous. | 09:04 |
| yinwei_computer | thanks saggi | 09:04 |
| saggi | So from here on forth, yinwei by my ptl powers I dub thee a core member. | 09:05 |
| yuval | Congratulations yinwei! | 09:05 |
| saggi | congratulations | 09:05 |
| yinwei_computer | thanks guys! | 09:06 |
| zhonghua-lee | congratulations | 09:06 |
| zhangshuai | congratulations | 09:06 |
| smile-luobin | congratulations | 09:06 |
| yinwei_computer | it's my pleasure and honor to work with you guys. Let's do it better! | 09:06 |
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| saggi | #topic enhance restore object with status and resource info | 09:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "enhance restore object with status and resource info (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 09:07 | |
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| saggi | I did not put this on the docket, so whoever wanted this discussed please speak. | 09:08 |
| yinwei_computer | I put it | 09:08 |
| yinwei_computer | so the background is we want to support concurrent restore on the same checkpoint | 09:09 |
| yinwei_computer | which introduces to maintain restore status on restore object | 09:09 |
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| yinwei_computer | But one issue smile-luobin has raised is that, since cinder doesn't support multiple restore on the same backup | 09:09 |
| yinwei_computer | is it necessary for smaug to support that feature? | 09:10 |
| saggi | Can we queue it on our end? | 09:10 |
| saggi | Also, it might not matter when restoring since cinder might not be involved. | 09:10 |
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| yinwei_computer | ok. so the answer is smaug will support concurrent restore on one checkpoint, right? | 09:11 |
| saggi | yes | 09:11 |
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| yuval | btw, since you can't backup a volume concurrently, that means that protecting the same resources twice in the same time has this issue as well | 09:12 |
| yinwei_computer | If this is the requirement, then we need maintain session of restore, same as checkpoint | 09:12 |
| saggi | We might get less concurrent if we block on cinder but if\when they fix it we will be ready. | 09:12 |
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| saggi | keystone session? | 09:12 |
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| yinwei_computer | yuval, do you mean we backup one volume in two plans at the same time? | 09:13 |
| yuval | yinwei_computer: yes | 09:13 |
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| yinwei_computer | saggi, sorry, when I said session here I mean lease | 09:13 |
| yinwei_computer | yuval, yes, the same issue. | 09:13 |
| saggi | How hard is it to internally reuse to the backup. | 09:14 |
| saggi | ? | 09:14 |
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| saggi | Or is it too complex for now | 09:15 |
| yinwei_computer | reuse existed lease mechanism, you mean? | 09:15 |
| yuval | saggi: and what happens upon delete? | 09:15 |
| saggi | refcount | 09:15 |
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| yinwei_computer | yes, ref count | 09:15 |
| yuval | saggi: maintained where? | 09:15 |
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| saggi | yuval: has to be on the backup md | 09:16 |
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| yinwei_computer | another index | 09:16 |
| yinwei_computer | ref from restore to checkpoint | 09:17 |
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| saggi | I'm less worried about the refcounting and more about internal synchronization | 09:18 |
| yinwei_computer | what do you think to assign smile-luobin to update current lease rst to show the solution? so people can check the details on review board? | 09:18 |
| yinwei_computer | you mean sync from protection service to api service? | 09:18 |
| saggi | yinwei_computer: Sure, it should be similar to checkpoint. Since it's just there to protect the restore object. | 09:18 |
| saggi | sync protection service with itself | 09:19 |
| yuval | Using leases for cinder backup sounds like a solution, but this is in the hands of the protection plugin | 09:19 |
| yuval | maybe we can provide protection plugins with a general lease api | 09:19 |
| yinwei_computer | could you tell more about the sync? sync what, from whom, to whom? | 09:19 |
| saggi | Why do we need leases for cinder? don't they tell us if we double act? | 09:19 |
| yinwei_computer | lease is not a cinder specific solution | 09:20 |
| yuval | saggi: I figured that was yinwei_computer meant | 09:20 |
| saggi | I would prefer not having a resource specific lease | 09:20 |
| saggi | lease for checkpoint and restore make sense | 09:20 |
| yinwei_computer | lease is a general solution which is maintained by protection service itself | 09:20 |
| yinwei_computer | from protection to bank server | 09:21 |
| saggi | I think we are having multiple discussions at once | 09:21 |
| yinwei_computer | saggi, I think we're on the same page | 09:21 |
| saggi | **cinder not allowing multiple actions on the same resource | 09:21 |
| saggi | Let's say that we just wait until cinder allows us to perform the action. I assume if you try while another operation is in progress you get a special error. | 09:22 |
| yuval | lease for checkpoint and restore - how does it cope with different providers and the same resources? | 09:22 |
| saggi | yuval: in a minute | 09:22 |
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| saggi | yinwei_computer: would that solve cinder issue? | 09:23 |
| yinwei_computer | yes | 09:23 |
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| yinwei_computer | I got your idea, we just queue inside protection service to avoid parallel failure on cinder | 09:23 |
| saggi | yinwei_computer: exactly | 09:24 |
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| yinwei_computer | the lease is to check idle restoring status restore objects | 09:24 |
| saggi | But it needs to also work if multiple protection services on different hosts act | 09:24 |
| saggi | **restore status | 09:24 |
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| saggi | for restore adding a lease seems like the right solution to check for stale restores | 09:25 |
| yinwei_computer | hmm, sounds like we need a test before queueing | 09:25 |
| saggi | yinwei_computer: yes, it needs to keep checking. Unless there is a way to get a notification from cinder | 09:26 |
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| yinwei_computer | agree | 09:27 |
| saggi | as for restore. The lease is just for liveness or do we want to support continuing a failed restore? | 09:27 |
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| saggi | I think for a start we just use it for liveness unless there is some Heat magic that can solve this for us easily. | 09:28 |
| yinwei_computer | liveness for now | 09:28 |
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| yinwei_computer | unless we first have task flow to work in a persisted storage, we are not able to support continuing failed restore/protect | 09:29 |
| saggi | OK | 09:29 |
| yinwei_computer | we depend on the task flow to maintain status | 09:29 |
| saggi | BTW errors should also be reported on the restore object. Similar to checkpoint. | 09:29 |
| yinwei_computer | yes | 09:29 |
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| yinwei_computer | ok. Let's check the details from later rst commit for review. | 09:30 |
| yinwei_computer | if there's no more questions about this issue | 09:30 |
| saggi | I'm good | 09:30 |
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| yinwei_computer | others? | 09:30 |
| yinwei_computer | I think we can switch to next topic | 09:31 |
| saggi | #topic yuval is going to China | 09:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "yuval is going to China (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 09:31 | |
| saggi | $topic | 09:32 |
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| yinwei_computer | wow, welcome! | 09:32 |
| saggi | is everyone properly excited | 09:32 |
| yuval | ^^ | 09:32 |
| yinwei_computer | Beijing and chengdu are on you agenda? | 09:32 |
| yuval | yes, both | 09:33 |
| saggi | yuval: Could you say what you are planning on doing for the record? | 09:33 |
| yuval | Ofcourse | 09:33 |
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| yuval | I'll be attending OpenStack Days China in Beijing, with zhonghua-lee | 09:33 |
| yuval | Hopefully be part of his talk | 09:33 |
| yuval | Later I'll arrive to Chengdu | 09:34 |
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| zhonghua-lee | sorry, I left for a while... | 09:34 |
| zhonghua-lee | yuval: welcome | 09:34 |
| yinwei_computer | you will have a speech in beijing, yuval? | 09:34 |
| zhonghua-lee | wish you have a nice journey | 09:34 |
| yuval | yinwei_computer: zhonghua-lee is speaking, and hopefully I'll deliver a short talk about Smaug | 09:35 |
| yuval | Maybe zhonghua-lee can elaborate | 09:35 |
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| zhonghua-lee | I will try my best | 09:36 |
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| yinwei_computer | have you two guys got a rehearsal? | 09:37 |
| zhonghua-lee | not yet | 09:37 |
| yinwei_computer | zhonghua-lee, what are you going to talk? an introduction or cooperation? | 09:37 |
| zhonghua-lee | I am writing the presentation | 09:37 |
| zhonghua-lee | now | 09:37 |
| yinwei_computer | ok | 09:38 |
| zhonghua-lee | we plan to show some demo about DP | 09:38 |
| zhonghua-lee | introduce all the related projects | 09:38 |
| yinwei_computer | oh, yes | 09:38 |
| zhonghua-lee | e.g. Smaug, Cinder... | 09:39 |
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| yinwei_computer | are you going to demo cross regions DP? | 09:39 |
| zhonghua-lee | that's in our plan | 09:39 |
| zhonghua-lee | but we met some problem right now, I am not sure if it will be finished before the summit starting | 09:40 |
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| yinwei_computer | let's check issues together | 09:41 |
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| zhonghua-lee | yinwei_computer: thank you | 09:42 |
| saggi | I hope you are going to show Yuval a good time | 09:42 |
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| saggi | #topic open discussion | 09:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 09:43 | |
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| zhonghua-lee | saggi: :) | 09:43 |
| saggi | Anything else anyone want to talk about? | 09:43 |
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| yinwei_computer | I used to talk with chenying, about supporting cross region/openstack DP | 09:44 |
| yinwei_computer | what's the plan about this feature? | 09:44 |
| saggi | It should be implicitly supported in the right configuration. | 09:45 |
| zhonghua-lee | do we plan to discuss about the RoadMap? | 09:45 |
| yinwei_computer | cross regions, cinder/nova/glance.. don't share db | 09:45 |
| saggi | For nova and glance it shouldn't matter. | 09:46 |
| yinwei_computer | so there will issues to protect in region1 but restore to region2 | 09:46 |
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| saggi | For cinder jgriffith offered to make sure that we know if we can perform a cinder manage on a target. This is required for restore on a different site. | 09:47 |
| saggi | As in make it something that a volume type will report | 09:47 |
| yinwei_computer | cross region, keystone is shared | 09:48 |
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| yinwei_computer | so it's not a problem to manage cinder | 09:48 |
| saggi | cinder manage is an api call | 09:48 |
| saggi | to make a volume managed under cinder | 09:48 |
| saggi | so you copy it to the target and than add all the cinder metadata | 09:49 |
| yinwei_computer | will it generate a cinder volume for the data backend? | 09:49 |
| saggi | It's for cases where the data exists on the target but cinder doesn't know about it | 09:50 |
| yinwei_computer | so the procedure of restore is not to call cinder restore, but cinder manage, right? | 09:50 |
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| saggi | restore only works for backups that where made on the same cinder instance | 09:50 |
| saggi | We need to move the data to the new site and then add the information to cinder | 09:51 |
| saggi | this is what cinder manage is fore | 09:51 |
| yinwei_computer | but from which way we notify the backend to restore from backup data to a volume? | 09:51 |
| saggi | Than we should be able to restore | 09:51 |
| yuval | I'm not sure managing a volume also 'imports' its backup | 09:52 |
| saggi | It' | 09:53 |
| yinwei_computer | say, we have a backend like ceph, which backup rbd from site1 to site2. The backup data is in a snapshot diff format. We need first ask the backend to restore snapdiff to a rbd image. Then we call cinder manage to map a cinder volume to the backend:ceph rbd image. | 09:53 |
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| yinwei_computer | another way beyond 'manage', as yuval told is 'import' backup. | 09:54 |
| saggi | Cinder manage is a way to set up the MD for data that is already on the target | 09:54 |
| saggi | import is for data that isn't on the target | 09:54 |
| yinwei_computer | then we can restore the imported backup to a volume, where the backend will be notified in this way. | 09:54 |
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| yinwei_computer | import backup, i mean | 09:55 |
| saggi | For volumes on swift import should work | 09:55 |
| saggi | for replicated volume we will need to use manage | 09:55 |
| saggi | Since they are already on the target | 09:55 |
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| yinwei_computer | at least there should be a link to know the volume backend id (swift object), and if it is available (swift replication) | 09:56 |
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| saggi | We're almost out of time. yinwei_computer could you write a blueprint so we could start discussing this on gerrit? | 09:57 |
| yinwei_computer | this link is missing if we use manage procedure: we need a link to check/restore the data of the volume on the target backend | 09:57 |
| yinwei_computer | np | 09:57 |
| yinwei_computer | sure | 09:57 |
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| saggi | OK Thanks everybody | 09:59 |
| saggi | #endmeeting | 09:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 09:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 09:59:05 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 09:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-07-05-09.00.html | 09:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-07-05-09.00.txt | 09:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-07-05-09.00.log.html | 09:59 |
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| yanyanhu | #startmeeting senlin | 13:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 13:00:43 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yanyanhu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:00 |
| yanyanhu | hi | 13:00 |
| elynn | Hi! | 13:00 |
| Qiming | hi | 13:00 |
| haiwei_ | hi | 13:01 |
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| yanyanhu | hi :) | 13:01 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, you are here | 13:01 |
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| Qiming | seems so | 13:01 |
| Qiming | watching | 13:01 |
| yanyanhu | :P | 13:01 |
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| yanyanhu | free to hold the meeting? | 13:01 |
| Qiming | pls go ahead | 13:01 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:01 |
| yanyanhu | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda#Weekly_Senlin_.28Clustering.29_meeting | 13:01 |
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| yanyanhu | plz feel free to add items to agenda | 13:02 |
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| yanyanhu | #topic newton workitem | 13:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "newton workitem (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:02 | |
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| yanyanhu | ok, lets go through newton workitem first | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-newton-workitems | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | no new progress in testing I think | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | but the functional test migration has been done | 13:02 |
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| lixinhui_ | hi | 13:03 |
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| yanyanhu | so will remove this item from etherpad | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | I guess also no progress in performance test | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | so lets skip it | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | hi, lixinhui_ | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | next item is about HA | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | hi, lixinhui_, so you mentioned the fencing part has been done last week? | 13:04 |
| lixinhui_ | yes | 13:04 |
| lixinhui_ | manually set up | 13:04 |
| lixinhui_ | need to consider how to automatically enable the scenario | 13:05 |
| * Qiming raises his thumb, both ... | 13:05 | |
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| lixinhui_ | and the bug of nuetron-lbaas... | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | Great. Since we have proposed a topic about end-to-end HA solution based on Senlin HA to summit, we may need to finish some basic support to build a PoC for it | 13:05 |
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| lixinhui_ | still need some time to get review | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | lixinhui_, yes, I saw you have assigned the bug to yourself :) | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | hi, Qiming, any idea about this work item | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | or something we need to pay attention | 13:06 |
| Qiming | it is fine | 13:06 |
| Qiming | we may need a full story | 13:06 |
| Qiming | even though we still have something missing | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | yes, full story is very important, not only for a demo | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/senlin/+spec/support-health-management-customization | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | so this etherpad is about HA design | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-ha-recover | 13:08 |
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| yanyanhu | something is still missing | 13:09 |
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| yanyanhu | especially about the health policy | 13:09 |
| Qiming | we can have a basic policy poc before summit | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | that's a basic goal I think | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | not very difficult I guess | 13:10 |
| Qiming | a broader topic may involve mistral | 13:10 |
| Qiming | which should be discussed in section 4.1 | 13:10 |
| yanyanhu | to control the workflow of node recovery? | 13:10 |
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| Qiming | yes | 13:11 |
| Qiming | there might be some out-of-band resources that need to be taken care of | 13:11 |
| yanyanhu | I see. | 13:11 |
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| lixinhui_ | agree | 13:11 |
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| yanyanhu | another item I'm still not clear is about application/service deployed inside VM | 13:12 |
| yanyanhu | will senlin handle their failure as well? | 13:12 |
| yanyanhu | by watching lbaas member status e.g. | 13:13 |
| lixinhui_ | I think so | 13:13 |
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| lixinhui_ | we should provide listening to the event of member status change | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | it is possible to support app HA partially | 13:13 |
| lixinhui_ | if the lbaas service is created by senlin | 13:14 |
| zzxwill | For all different kinds of applications/services? | 13:14 |
| Qiming | not an easy job, but we, as always, can do our best for failure detection | 13:14 |
| lixinhui_ | difficult for all ... I think | 13:14 |
| yanyanhu | sorry, just dropped | 13:15 |
| haiwei_ | detect application's failure? | 13:15 |
| Qiming | another thought on this -- maybe a thread in parallel --- is to setup guest level Linux HA cluster | 13:15 |
| zzxwill | Is there a layer controlled by senlin which can detect their status? | 13:15 |
| Qiming | suppose an application has been protected using Linux HA before, migrating them to Senlin cluster should be an easy job | 13:16 |
| Qiming | zzxwill, a generic solution for application failure detection is almost impossible | 13:16 |
| yanyanhu | so maybe we build a full HA story with typical use case and then figure out how senlin support it? | 13:17 |
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| Qiming | yes | 13:17 |
| zzxwill | Thanks. lixinhui and Qiming. | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | if there are some gap, we know what part is missing in Senlin's HA mechanism | 13:18 |
| Qiming | for example, in some domains, openais has been planted into the application code, so that reliable failure detection becomes a possibility | 13:18 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes | 13:18 |
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| yanyanhu | actually, I think whether senlin can support the fail over of an app also depends on how app expose their user interface | 13:19 |
| Qiming | we can start with some wireframe diagram | 13:19 |
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| yanyanhu | yes. we need more detailed design and complete the proposal which is just a draft now | 13:20 |
| Qiming | based on such a draft we can identify where it makes sense for senlin to play a role, and where it makes sense to reuse/integrate with existing technology/solutions | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | agree | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | to decide our scope | 13:21 |
| Qiming | we have quite some piece technologies to integrate, to massage ... | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | and then we can start more concrete work | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | and decide their priority | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | yes, actually I just try to add zaqar driver to senlin | 13:22 |
| yanyanhu | but met lots of problem | 13:22 |
| yanyanhu | will talk about this issue a bit more later | 13:22 |
| Qiming | right, so ... comment on the etherpad would be very helpful: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-ha-recover | 13:22 |
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| Qiming | ok | 13:22 |
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| yanyanhu | Qiming, will you be free for a call this week or next week before tuesday? | 13:23 |
| Qiming | yes, I think so | 13:23 |
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| yanyanhu | great, then I will arrange a call for some discussion about this topic | 13:23 |
| Qiming | pls involve everyone who feels interested in this | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | ok, anything else about HA? | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | sure | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | will send out the invitation | 13:24 |
| zzxwill | Great. | 13:24 |
| Qiming | the listener implementation has some flaws | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | #action yanyanhu send out invitation about the call for HA topic discussion | 13:25 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, lets move on | 13:25 |
| Qiming | I was seeing some exceptions thrown from oslo.messaging occasionally | 13:25 |
| Qiming | will dig more into it | 13:25 |
| yanyanhu | #topic profile for docker | 13:25 |
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| yanyanhu | hi, haiwei_ , any new progress about it? | 13:25 |
| haiwei_ | I have no progress on container jobs, this week | 13:26 |
| yanyanhu | big network latency here... | 13:26 |
| haiwei_ | honestly, I am a little confused what to do the next | 13:26 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, great, thanks :) | 13:26 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei_, yes? | 13:26 |
| haiwei_ | the network is not good to me, either | 13:27 |
| Qiming | pour your confusion here, haiwei_ | 13:27 |
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| haiwei_ | I have added container create/delete functions to Senlin, maybe container_list , and after that what should we do? | 13:28 |
| haiwei_ | to support storage and network? | 13:28 |
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| Qiming | think from a user's perspective | 13:29 |
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| haiwei_ | or support cluster actions for container first? | 13:30 |
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| Qiming | either way | 13:30 |
| yanyanhu | This is really a big topic I think. Maybe we first finish the work we have done as PoC in last summit? | 13:31 |
| Qiming | supporting cluster actions doesn't sound a great challenge, IIUC | 13:31 |
| yanyanhu | including the docker driver/profile and a basic placement policy for it | 13:31 |
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| Qiming | however, if we are running some workloads, we will find that we will need to provision storage/network for some basic services | 13:32 |
| Qiming | right, "scheduling" is another topic to work on | 13:33 |
| haiwei_ | I am still concern about the container's host when thinking about cluster actions, because things are different when containers are in one host or different hosts | 13:34 |
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| Qiming | that is not senlin's scope | 13:34 |
| Qiming | we will just leverage whatever existing technology to provision the network | 13:34 |
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| yanyanhu | oh, BTW, in latest docker release, more and more functionality has been integrated into the docker-engine, including the orchestration | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | the difference should be masked from users | 13:35 |
| Qiming | because ... they don't care | 13:35 |
| yanyanhu | this is not a bad news I think | 13:35 |
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| yanyanhu | that means relying on less 3rd service/tools to support container cluster | 13:36 |
| yanyanhu | imo | 13:36 |
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| yanyanhu | s/3rd/3rd part | 13:37 |
| haiwei_ | docker will use docker swarm to support container cluster I think | 13:37 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei_, in latest 1.12, swarm has been the history :) | 13:37 |
| yanyanhu | it is part of docker engine now I think | 13:37 |
| zzxwill | Yes, I heard it from your WeChat. | 13:37 |
| Qiming | so ... my general feeling is ... sometimes we are too easy to be brain washed | 13:37 |
| haiwei_ | ok, really | 13:37 |
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| lixinhui_ | I am not a docket kong | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei_, yes, they call it docker orchestration | 13:38 |
| Qiming | to understand the reality, we have to try it out | 13:38 |
| lixinhui_ | but feel interested at network part | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes | 13:38 |
| lixinhui_ | will you leverge kuryr for that? | 13:38 |
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| yanyanhu | so my feeling is their are in fast progress | 13:38 |
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| Qiming | setup swarm and use it, and see if it works as expected | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | lixinhui_, you mean senlin? | 13:39 |
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| lixinhui_ | yes | 13:39 |
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| lixinhui_ | yanyanhu | 13:39 |
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| lixinhui_ | orchestration part is very complicated | 13:39 |
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| yanyanhu | Qiming, announcement is different from reality some times :P | 13:39 |
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| Qiming | everyone is moving fast, because this is a brutal, crazy world | 13:39 |
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| lixinhui_ | I am trying to understand the driver part firstly | 13:39 |
| Qiming | some companies are very good at "generalizing" things | 13:40 |
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| lixinhui_ | for example | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | lixinhui_, based on my understanding, docker network is still in preliminary mode, compared with SDN support in openstack | 13:40 |
| lixinhui_ | deploy a lbaas in container | 13:40 |
| Qiming | better test and verify it using your own machine | 13:40 |
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| lixinhui_ | can senlin automatically fo that? | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | its overlay network or some 3rd part tools support | 13:40 |
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| yanyanhu | lixinhui_, lb in side container? | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | or lb for container cluster | 13:41 |
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| lixinhui_ | the the one | 13:42 |
| lixinhui_ | the later one | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | I'm not sure about the former one. for the latter one, it is a basic requirement I guess? | 13:42 |
| lixinhui_ | do not know | 13:43 |
| lixinhui_ | at least | 13:43 |
| Qiming | yes, will definitely need it | 13:43 |
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| lixinhui_ | network need to be done | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | they need to support it, otherwise, it is useless :P | 13:43 |
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| yanyanhu | so we may need more investigation here | 13:43 |
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| yanyanhu | for what docker-engine can support now | 13:44 |
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| yanyanhu | and what it doesn't | 13:44 |
| lixinhui_ | I do not think so | 13:44 |
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| haiwei_ | yes, yanyanhu | 13:44 |
| lixinhui_ | since floating ip is created by neutron in this way | 13:44 |
| lixinhui_ | how for applications or container know that? | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | after we better understand it, we can make the correct decision :) | 13:45 |
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| yanyanhu | lixinhui_, if you mean network integration with openstack for docker, I'm not clear about the progress... | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | but I feel it is not an easy job | 13:46 |
| Qiming | for networking stuff, we already have kuryr working on that, so we don't have to reinvent a thing (hopefully) | 13:46 |
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| Qiming | if we don't know kuryr, then we should learn it, instead of just imagining it | 13:46 |
| yanyanhu | at least not as easy as integrating nova with neutron :P | 13:46 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes | 13:46 |
| yanyanhu | this is a homework have to do | 13:47 |
| Qiming | yes | 13:47 |
| lixinhui_ | forgive me if driver layer is not ready | 13:47 |
| Qiming | when we have found something missing from kuryr, we propose a work item for that team/project | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | I'm trying to build a docker1.12 env and try it | 13:47 |
| elynn | I think it's almost about container cluster, not about the IaaS cluster for container, we can proceed it and assume that network is done. | 13:47 |
| lixinhui_ | orchestration is more complicated to discuss | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | hope can understand its latest release better | 13:47 |
| elynn | We should focus how do we use senlin to deploy docker application on senlin cluster cluster. | 13:48 |
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| Qiming | right, 'orchestration' may mean a thousand different things from different group, to different people | 13:48 |
| elynn | openstack have magnum to deploy the IaaS cluster for cluster. | 13:48 |
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| elynn | for docker cluster | 13:49 |
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| yanyanhu | kinda agree with elynn | 13:49 |
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| Qiming | em ... magnum is not about clustering | 13:49 |
| yanyanhu | yes, it isn't | 13:50 |
| Qiming | IIUC, it is always about glueing a COE onto openstack | 13:50 |
| yanyanhu | just feel maybe focusing on docker app cluster deployment is a better idea? | 13:50 |
| yanyanhu | and more useful | 13:50 |
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| yanyanhu | for end user | 13:51 |
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| Qiming | from end user's perspective, that is true, I think | 13:51 |
| elynn | That's what I mean yanyanhu :) | 13:51 |
| haiwei_ | yanyanhu, not really understand you, build a docker app cluster is different from building a docker cluster? | 13:51 |
| yanyanhu | yes, since pure docker instance(s) is not that useful I feel | 13:51 |
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| yanyanhu | haiwei_, it is the same if you treat docker instance deployment as app deployment | 13:52 |
| haiwei_ | when you start a container, you use an docker image, and in the image the app is installed, right? | 13:52 |
| yanyanhu | since the reason user deploy docker is for deploying app I think | 13:52 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei_, yes | 13:52 |
| Qiming | yes? what is the difference? | 13:52 |
| yanyanhu | so a docker cluster is actually an app cluster | 13:52 |
| haiwei_ | so, I think it is the same thing | 13:53 |
| yanyanhu | so docker orchestration is actually service orchestration I feel? | 13:53 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei_, yes | 13:53 |
| haiwei_ | I think so | 13:53 |
| Qiming | why are we deploying pure docker instances? | 13:53 |
| yanyanhu | just want to clarify which layer we are focusing on :) | 13:53 |
| Qiming | it is only about wording | 13:53 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes :) | 13:53 |
| Qiming | any technology difference? | 13:54 |
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| Qiming | I am not a big fan of strict layering | 13:54 |
| Qiming | it means nothing to end users | 13:54 |
| Qiming | they don't care | 13:54 |
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| yanyanhu | yea | 13:54 |
| yanyanhu | so I think we are on the same page now for this topic :) | 13:54 |
| Qiming | is this service a paas, or a iaas? | 13:54 |
| Qiming | who cares? | 13:55 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, last 5 minutes | 13:55 |
| haiwei_ | since we import containers to senlin, we need to think about how to make containers fit for senlin's architecture | 13:55 |
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| yanyanhu | haiwei_, +1 | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | after we finish our homework :) | 13:56 |
| Qiming | yes, we can transparently adapt senlin's architecture for this purpose, provided that we are not breaking existing users | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | will learn more about in coming weeks | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | and lets have further discussion about it later | 13:56 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, anything else about this issue? | 13:57 |
| lixinhui_ | cool | 13:57 |
| haiwei_ | ok, I will express my thoughts by code | 13:57 |
| Qiming | +2, got to jump into the pool an learn swimming that way | 13:57 |
| yanyanhu | oops, big latency again... | 13:57 |
| Qiming | instead of reading a thousand books on swimming, staying away from the pool | 13:57 |
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| yanyanhu | Qiming, +2 | 13:58 |
| yanyanhu | trying it is the best way to learn it in most cases | 13:58 |
| haiwei_ | I went to pool last sunday, and got burnt | 13:58 |
| elynn | it's always a controversial topic, better done then always discuss. Just do IT ;) | 13:58 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei_, :P | 13:58 |
| Qiming | LOL | 13:58 |
| yanyanhu | yea | 13:58 |
| yanyanhu | ok, last 2 minutes | 13:58 |
| yanyanhu | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-proposal-barcelona-summit | 13:58 |
| Qiming | btw, forwarded you (yanyanhu) an email from a user | 13:58 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, ok | 13:58 |
| Qiming | they are seeing some NULL respose from senlin API | 13:58 |
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| Qiming | which is impossible in theory | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | ok, will check it | 13:59 |
| Qiming | thx | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | no problem | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-proposal-barcelona-summit | 13:59 |
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| yanyanhu | plz add concrete idea to this etherpad | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | it is for our topic proposal for coming summit | 13:59 |
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| yanyanhu | we may have to finish the proposal before this weekend | 13:59 |
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| Qiming | ok | 14:00 |
| yanyanhu | since next Wednesday is the deadline | 14:00 |
| yanyanhu | ok, time is over | 14:00 |
| yanyanhu | lets move back to senlin channel | 14:00 |
| yanyanhu | thanks you guys for joining | 14:00 |
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| yanyanhu | #endmeeting | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 14:00:48 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-07-05-13.00.html | 14:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-07-05-13.00.txt | 14:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-07-05-13.00.log.html | 14:00 |
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| armax | ho | 14:01 |
| armax | hi | 14:01 |
| yamamoto | hi | 14:01 |
| namnh | Hì | 14:01 |
| boden | howdy | 14:01 |
| armax | #startmeeting networking | 14:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 14:01:14 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is armax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| haleyb | hi | 14:01 |
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| hichihara | hi | 14:01 |
| HenryG | o/ | 14:01 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking' | 14:01 |
| hoangcx | hi | 14:01 |
| annp | Hì | 14:01 |
| andreas_s | hi | 14:01 |
| korzen | hello | 14:01 |
| john-davidge | o/ | 14:01 |
| blogan | hi | 14:01 |
| rossella_s | hi | 14:01 |
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| bcafarel | howdy | 14:01 |
| andy__ | wow | 14:01 |
| carl_baldwin | Hi | 14:01 |
| amuller | hiya | 14:02 |
| annp | Hi | 14:02 |
| andy__ | hi | 14:02 |
| akamyshnikova_ | hi | 14:02 |
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| armax | Today is national holiday for Ihar, so he won’t be joining | 14:02 |
| namnh | Hi | 14:02 |
| jschwarz | hello | 14:02 |
| amotoki | \o | 14:02 |
| armax | let’s dive in | 14:02 |
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| armax | The agenda, as usual | 14:03 |
| armax | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings | 14:03 |
| armax | #topic Announcements | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:03 | |
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| armax | Some mid-cycles are approaching | 14:03 |
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| armax | for more details | 14:03 |
| armax | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints#Newton_sprints | 14:03 |
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| armax | please sign up if you plan to attend, make sure you watch out the etherpads and contribute in the area of your interest, even if you don't | 14:04 |
| armax | please be aware of the Nova FFE process | 14:05 |
| armax | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-July/098666.html | 14:05 |
| armax | if you have something in your work plan that affects | 14:05 |
| armax | Noca | 14:05 |
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| armax | Nova | 14:05 |
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| armax | I strongly advise you to stay on top of the Nova’s schedule | 14:06 |
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| armax | Another thing I wanted to mention is this thread | 14:08 |
| armax | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-June/097930.html | 14:08 |
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| armax | at one point we had gate-neutron-dsvm-functional-py34 in the check queue | 14:09 |
| armax | and we demoted it to experimental because it was not working as it should have | 14:09 |
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| armax | if there’s anyone interested in this low hanging fruit activity | 14:09 |
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| armax | perhaps we can see if we can restore it and replace it with the py27 counterparts? | 14:10 |
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| armax | singular, counterpart | 14:10 |
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| HenryG | armax: I will sync up with you on that later | 14:11 |
| armax | thanks HenryG | 14:11 |
| armax | at the time we demoted I recall there was something wrong with the DB migrations | 14:11 |
| armax | but don’t quote me on that | 14:11 |
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| armax | ok, enough with reminder | 14:12 |
| armax | s | 14:12 |
| armax | unless someone has anything to add? | 14:12 |
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| armax | no? Ok, moving on | 14:13 |
| armax | #topic Blueprints | 14:13 |
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| armax | that’s our current workload | 14:13 |
| armax | #link https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/newton-2 | 14:13 |
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| armax | the next milestone is in a week | 14:14 |
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| armax | I mean | 14:14 |
| armax | N-2’s deadline is in a week-ish | 14:14 |
| armax | #link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 14:14 |
| armax | Can I trouble the assignee/approvers of blueprints to update the whiteboard to reflect the latest status of the work you’re following? | 14:14 |
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| ajo | of course you can | 14:15 |
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| rossella_s | armax yes :) | 14:15 |
| armax | please captures things outstanding, things that landed and potential blockers | 14:15 |
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| armax | Once the milestone is cut we can over what items can realistically land safely for Newton | 14:16 |
| armax | ajo, rossella_s: thanks for the support! | 14:16 |
| armax | we have currently 22 blueprints outstanding, we can probably squeeze a handful more, but only if we behave | 14:16 |
| armax | ok if nobody has anything to add, let’s move on | 14:17 |
| armax | but before I do | 14:17 |
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| armax | please remember http://status.openstack.org/reviews/ | 14:18 |
| armax | and the teeny tiny link at the top | 14:18 |
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| armax | kudos to rossella_s | 14:18 |
| armax | if you wake up in the morning and you don’t know what to review | 14:18 |
| rossella_s | armax thanks | 14:18 |
| armax | that link helps you stay focussed and review what matters for the release | 14:19 |
| HenryG | +1 rossella_s | 14:19 |
| armax | not that we all have this problem, but you never know, I thought I’d better remember | 14:19 |
| hichihara | I use :) | 14:19 |
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| armax | hichihara: good :) | 14:20 |
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| armax | next topic | 14:21 |
| armax | #topic Bugs | 14:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:21 | |
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| armax | deputy for last week was rossella_s | 14:22 |
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| armax | rossella_s: anything you want to share? | 14:22 |
| rossella_s | I was in charge of bugs last week...it was a quiet week, nothing to report apart from https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1598525 | 14:22 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1598525 in neutron "KeyError: 'processor_architecture' on ./stack.sh" [Critical,Confirmed] | 14:22 |
| rossella_s | this should be fixed by infra | 14:22 |
| armax | yes, that has been fixed | 14:22 |
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| armax | #link http://grafana.openstack.org/dashboard/db/neutron-failure-rate | 14:23 |
| armax | shows that things have gone back to sanity | 14:23 |
| armax | though... | 14:23 |
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| armax | there’s been an interesting spike lately | 14:24 |
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| armax | not sure if it’s related to 1598525 as I only saw it affecting the functional job | 14:24 |
| armax | as far as jobs are concerned | 14:25 |
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| armax | please be aware of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/319770/ and | 14:25 |
| armax | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/336099/ | 14:25 |
| armax | if you are a maintainer of a project that depends on the ovs agent | 14:25 |
| armax | please make sure that the switch to native interfaces is something you’re happy with | 14:26 |
| armax | I know that the switch to ovsdb caused a little hiccup to OVN | 14:26 |
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| armax | another potential hiccup might be caused by https://review.openstack.org/#/c/181023/ | 14:26 |
| armax | this is the switch to pluggable ipam | 14:27 |
| rossella_s | lot's of switches :) | 14:28 |
| armax | I just noticed bug 1599086 | 14:28 |
| openstack | bug 1599086 in neutron "Security groups: exception under load" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1599086 - Assigned to Gary Kotton (garyk) | 14:28 |
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| armax | marked as critical, can someone look into it? | 14:28 |
| armax | kevinbenton: ^ | 14:28 |
| rossella_s | armax, I had a brief look before the meeting, garyk has a patch for it | 14:29 |
| armax | rossella_s: I am not sure we can blindly retry | 14:29 |
| armax | rossella_s: but I don’t fully understand the failure mode | 14:29 |
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| rossella_s | armax, that's what I thought too...I remember a conversation with you about all these retries | 14:30 |
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| rossella_s | armax, me neither, I didn't have the time to look more into it | 14:30 |
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| armax | rossella_s: ok, thanks | 14:30 |
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| armax | is there anyone interested in being deputy for the week of July 18? | 14:31 |
| armax | this week we’re covered by johndperkins and next week by blogan | 14:31 |
| armax | kudos to both of them | 14:31 |
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| armax | ok, while you go and check your calendars… | 14:32 |
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| armax | I wanted to remind you that there’s another potential low hanging fruit activity related to bug 1552960 | 14:33 |
| openstack | bug 1552960 in neutron "Tempest and Neutron duplicate tests" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1552960 - Assigned to Assaf Muller (amuller) | 14:33 |
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| armax | if anyone is interested helping moving this activity along, please reach out to amuller | 14:33 |
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| amuller | I will buy a beer to anyone who merges a patch related to that bug in Barca | 14:33 |
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| armax | and I’ll match amuller’s offer | 14:34 |
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| ajo | :-) | 14:34 |
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| armax | I’d rather see some of the patches targeting this work than some silly trivialfix for a grammar typo | 14:34 |
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| armax | but that’s just me | 14:35 |
| armax | I should probably start -2 stuff and tell people to go and work on that instead | 14:35 |
| * armax has got a great idea! | 14:35 | |
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| armax | ok, anyone for deputy the week after the next? | 14:36 |
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| mlavalle | armax: I'll do July 18th | 14:36 |
| armax | mlavalle it is! | 14:36 |
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| armax | #action mlavalle bug deputy for the week of July 18th | 14:36 |
| armax | mlavalle: thanks! | 14:36 |
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| armax | ok | 14:38 |
| armax | moving on | 14:38 |
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| armax | #topic Docs | 14:38 |
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| armax | anything to bring up? | 14:38 |
| armax | if not, we can dive in into the special sections of the meeting OSC and Keystone v3 respectively | 14:39 |
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| armax | #topic OSC | 14:39 |
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| amotoki | i just proposed many backports to mitaka. if you write something which can be backported to mitaka, please add 'backport: mitaka' tag to doc commit msg. | 14:39 |
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| amotoki | oh... OSC.... | 14:39 |
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| armax | amotoki: that’s good too | 14:40 |
| hichihara | amotoki: you are very slow | 14:40 |
| armax | rtheis: ^ anything you want to add on OSC | 14:40 |
| korzen | I have started some defref about hot to use objects in Neutron: https://review.openstack.org/336518 | 14:40 |
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| armax | rtheis: is there anything the team should be aware of? | 14:40 |
| rtheis | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/309587/ | 14:40 |
| rtheis | amotoki is working the initial plugin support | 14:40 |
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| amotoki | I confirmed it worked with most cases. | 14:40 |
| armax | rtheis: great, thansk | 14:40 |
| amotoki | without and with SSL (insecure and verify) | 14:41 |
| rtheis | hopefully we can get that merged soon which opens the way for the plugins | 14:41 |
| amotoki | i believe it can go. | 14:41 |
| armax | amotoki: ack | 14:41 |
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| rtheis | Also, osc is working on an osc-lib which can be used by plugins for common functionality | 14:41 |
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| armax | the failures seem genuine though | 14:42 |
| rtheis | as soon as it is ready, I think we'll have neutron plugin us it | 14:42 |
| armax | #link http://logs.openstack.org/87/309587/7/check/gate-tempest-dsvm-neutron-src-python-neutronclient/7f533dc/logs/devstacklog.txt.gz#_2016-07-04_14_54_18_332 | 14:42 |
| armax | is there a missing dependency? | 14:42 |
| amotoki | am looking at this | 14:43 |
| armax | anyhow, good job, let’s get this pushed asap | 14:43 |
| armax | a reminder for the team | 14:43 |
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| armax | neutronclient changes will follow the stricter requirements feature freeze | 14:43 |
| armax | so if you have things that must go in the neutronclient be aware that once feature freeze kicks in you’ll have a harder time getting an exception | 14:44 |
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| armax | QOS folks got burned last cycle for this very reason | 14:44 |
| armax | ajo: ring any bell? | 14:44 |
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| ajo | it does | 14:44 |
| ajo | it does :) | 14:44 |
| armax | ok, anything else to add? | 14:45 |
| armax | amotoki, rtheis thanks for pushing this activity | 14:45 |
| armax | #topic Keystone v3 | 14:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Keystone v3 (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:45 | |
| rtheis | yw | 14:45 |
| armax | HenryG, dasm ^ | 14:45 |
| armax | anything worth sharing? | 14:46 |
| dasm | one thing: currently i'm dealing with db migrations | 14:46 |
| HenryG | dasm has the big change out for review | 14:46 |
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| sbelous_ | is there any plan to make gate-tempest-dsvm-neutron-identity-v3-only-full-nv voting? anybody knows? | 14:46 |
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| amotoki | the review is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/335786/ | 14:46 |
| dasm | yes, and it occured that this db migration breaks a lot of other subprojects | 14:46 |
| armax | sbelous_: I did not know, but I’ll look into it | 14:46 |
| armax | dasm: ack | 14:47 |
| HenryG | thanks for alerting to that job sbelous_ | 14:47 |
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| armax | dasm: let’s take this offline on how to best manage the merge of this patch | 14:48 |
| sbelous_ | armax: thanks! | 14:48 |
| dasm | armax: ok. | 14:48 |
| armax | we may want to help some of the subprojects out | 14:48 |
| HenryG | at least do one that the others can copy | 14:48 |
| armax | dasm, HenryG do we expect that after dasm’s patch merges that no more migrations using ‘tenant_id’s are valid? | 14:49 |
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| HenryG | armax: I would say we can impose that rule now | 14:49 |
| armax | HenryG: you mean after merge? | 14:50 |
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| amotoki | HenryG: does it mean we always need to use contract migrations? | 14:50 |
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| amotoki | HenryG: sorry. it is not true. ignore me | 14:50 |
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| HenryG | armax: any patches now that touch tenant_id will interfere with dasm's patch | 14:51 |
| armax | HenryG: of course | 14:51 |
| armax | HenryG: but that’s how it is | 14:51 |
| armax | we currently have dasm’s conflicting with dasm’s patch | 14:51 |
| armax | and there are others that are affected as well | 14:51 |
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| ajo | So it's correct to keep telling people to use project_id on API & DB layers on new patches, | 14:52 |
| HenryG | most of the conflicting patches are not directly with tenant_id | 14:52 |
| ajo | I'm just remembering that I'm doing that later, but that I had to check | 14:52 |
| ajo | later->lately | 14:52 |
| armax | ajo: if we are 99% ready to pull the trigger on the tenant->project transition yes | 14:53 |
| armax | what I want to avoid is a mixed tenant/project id user experience | 14:53 |
| armax | the goal would be at teh end of Newton to have one or the other | 14:53 |
| armax | not both | 14:53 |
| ajo | ah, ok | 14:54 |
| ajo | I will keep that in mind while reviewing | 14:54 |
| armax | I imagine we may want to enforce a mini-freeze while we handle dasm’s patches | 14:54 |
| HenryG | armax: yup | 14:54 |
| armax | I’ll sit down with HenryG to figure out a plan and share it with the core review team | 14:55 |
| armax | so that we know which patches to block/defer/rebase | 14:55 |
| ajo | makes sense | 14:56 |
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| hichihara | I hope that the mini-freeze is very short so that it doesn't interrupt our development | 14:57 |
| siam0ss | Hi | 14:57 |
| amotoki | sounds reasonable. I think API patch will come after that. | 14:57 |
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| amotoki | i think it can lead to more discussion. | 14:58 |
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| armax | amotoki: or before, depending on how quickly we can whip dasm’s patch into shape | 14:58 |
| dasm | amotoki: that's the plan to tackle api after db. but we can discuss this later. | 14:58 |
| armax | oh hang on I misunderstood | 14:58 |
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| hichihara | 1min | 14:59 |
| armax | amotoki: what API patch(es) are you talking about? | 14:59 |
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| amotoki | armax: what in my mind is a patch which accepts project_id. | 14:59 |
| amotoki | am i missing it? | 14:59 |
| armax | amotoki: right | 14:59 |
| armax | ok | 14:59 |
| armax | I am with you | 15:00 |
| armax | we’ll have to adapt the API layer to handle both tenant and project id too | 15:00 |
| HenryG | Time. Let's switch to the neutron channel. | 15:00 |
| amotoki | i try my best on the series of reviews. | 15:00 |
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| armax | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 15:00:35 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-07-05-14.01.html | 15:00 |
| armax | thanks for joining folks | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-07-05-14.01.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-07-05-14.01.log.html | 15:00 |
| dasm | thanks | 15:00 |
| yamamoto | bye | 15:00 |
| davidsha | thanks | 15:00 |
| hichihara | bye | 15:00 |
| annp | bye | 15:00 |
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| namnh | Bye | 15:00 |
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| carl_baldwin | #startmeeting neutron_routed_networks | 15:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 15:01:28 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is carl_baldwin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_routed_networks' | 15:01 |
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| carl_baldwin | Anyone around today? | 15:01 |
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| xiaohhui | hello | 15:01 |
| john-davidge | hi | 15:01 |
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| johndperkins | yo | 15:01 |
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| mlavalle | o/ | 15:01 |
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| carl_baldwin | Hi all. | 15:02 |
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| carl_baldwin | #topic Announcements | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:02 | |
| carl_baldwin | Etherpad is here: | 15:02 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/routed-provider-networks-notes | 15:02 |
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| carl_baldwin | Newton-2 is coming right up. It'd be very good to get a couple of things merged by then. Namely DHCP, deferred IP ports in Nova, and service subnets. | 15:03 |
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| carl_baldwin | But, there are lots of smaller improvements that could go too. | 15:04 |
| carl_baldwin | Any other announcements? | 15:04 |
| * carl_baldwin feels like we were just here. He had a 4 day week-end away from work. | 15:04 | |
| mlavalle | Remind people of the Neutron mid-cycle, August 17 - 19, Cork Ireland | 15:04 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Thanks. I've booked my travel. I'll be there the. | 15:05 |
| carl_baldwin | s/ the// | 15:06 |
| carl_baldwin | Anything else? | 15:06 |
| mlavalle | Talks submission deadline July 13th | 15:06 |
| mlavalle | for the Summit | 15:06 |
| carl_baldwin | Thanks again. | 15:07 |
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| carl_baldwin | Moving on... | 15:08 |
| carl_baldwin | We've got lots of miscellaneous patches on the etherpad. Be sure to check there when you can. | 15:08 |
| carl_baldwin | I've been trying to make sure that all of the patches are listed on there with their status. | 15:08 |
| carl_baldwin | If you have a patch that isn't listed, please list it in the appropriate section. | 15:09 |
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| carl_baldwin | We're still merging at a decent rate. So, just double check the status of your patches. | 15:10 |
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| carl_baldwin | #topic DHCP | 15:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "DHCP (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:11 | |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan said he won't be able to make it today. | 15:11 |
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| * neiljerram slips in late | 15:11 | |
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| carl_baldwin | I'm going to try to pick up where I left off last week and get DHCP working in mlavalle 's fantastic vagrant environment. | 15:12 |
| * mlavalle blushes | 15:12 | |
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| mlavalle | I will also keep an eye on blogan'a next patchset. Janzian and I will also be testing it | 15:13 |
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| carl_baldwin | I think we're close. I think blogan has some work to fix the problem of the agent requesting subnets on other segments and then we've got an RPC thing to fix. | 15:13 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: great. | 15:13 |
| carl_baldwin | I'm going to try hard to get this fixed by Newton-2 | 15:14 |
| carl_baldwin | Anything else on DHCP? | 15:14 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Deferred IP allocation | 15:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deferred IP allocation (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:15 | |
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| carl_baldwin | I've got to close on this one | 15:15 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/299591 | 15:15 |
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| mlavalle | I took a look yesterday and made a comment | 15:16 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Thanks for your comment. I was just replying. | 15:17 |
| carl_baldwin | I don't think it should matter if the extension is enabled the way I wrote it. | 15:17 |
| carl_baldwin | It will return None which will be interpreted as not deferred. | 15:17 |
| mlavalle | Just wanted to make sure it was considered | 15:17 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Thanks. | 15:17 |
| carl_baldwin | I still need to digest the rest of the conversation. I might need to ping Matt today. | 15:18 |
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| mlavalle | I will also try to comment on the broader conversation, now that I have a dded a patchset to that seires | 15:18 |
| mlavalle | series^^^ | 15:19 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: What do you mean by "added a patchset ..."? | 15:19 |
| mlavalle | I added a new patchset for the interaction with routed networks from nova. We can comment in the NOva update | 15:20 |
| mlavalle | doesn't interfere with yours | 15:20 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: ok | 15:21 |
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| carl_baldwin | #topic Service Subnets | 15:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Service Subnets (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:22 | |
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| carl_baldwin | john-davidge: haleyb: Hi, anything on this? | 15:22 |
| haleyb | carl_baldwin: i am trying to get the WIP out so john can iterate on it, too much FTO for me last week :( | 15:23 |
| haleyb | it's my priority today | 15:23 |
| john-davidge | haleyb: Thanks, please do everything you can to get it uploaded today, I'm ready to work on it fulltime | 15:23 |
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| carl_baldwin | I'll be happy to take a look at it too. | 15:24 |
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| carl_baldwin | ... when it is posted. | 15:24 |
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| carl_baldwin | Anything else? | 15:25 |
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| haleyb | not from me | 15:26 |
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| carl_baldwin | It is probably a stretch at this point to get this merged by Newton-2. That is fine but it'd be nice to close on it soon after. I'm willing to help anytime you need another perspective. | 15:26 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Integration with Nova Scheduler | 15:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Integration with Nova Scheduler (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:27 | |
| mlavalle | First of all, many thanks to johnthetubaguy and the Nova core team for merging the patchsets in the prep for network aware scheduling series up to here: | 15:27 |
| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/329851/ | 15:27 |
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| mlavalle | Following johnthetubaguy advise from last week's meeting, I added this patchset on top of it: | 15:28 |
| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/337387/ | 15:28 |
| mlavalle | This patchset adds the ineraction from allocate_for_instance in Nova with the Routed Networks API | 15:29 |
| mlavalle | I made some assumptions as to the precise features in the Neutron side, because some of that is not ready yet | 15:30 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Do you think there is any chance to get this reviewed? | 15:31 |
| carl_baldwin | I have to admit I don't understand this patch's purpose yet. I need to look at it. | 15:31 |
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| mlavalle | carl_baldwin: Well, it was John's advise. So I am assuming they will review it. I will certainly give it visibility on Monday's during the scheduler meeting | 15:32 |
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| carl_baldwin | I'll take a look at it. | 15:33 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Do you know what the time table for the scheduler changes is? | 15:33 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Still targeted for Newton? | 15:33 |
| mlavalle | carl_baldwin: it is still targeted for Newton | 15:34 |
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| mlavalle | Last night I started working in the Vagrant environment adding 2 aggregates | 15:34 |
| mlavalle | On top of that I want to deploy this week the g-r-p series of patchsets | 15:35 |
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| carl_baldwin | Sounds like good progress. Keep up the good work and let me know if / when we need to help. | 15:35 |
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| mlavalle | the purpose is two fold | 15:35 |
| mlavalle | 1) Get a sense of how ready g-r-p is ready | 15:35 |
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| mlavalle | 2) Start prototyping in Neutron the interaction with that API | 15:36 |
| mlavalle | That's all for today | 15:37 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Good plan. | 15:37 |
| reedip | hi | 15:37 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Open Discussion | 15:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:37 | |
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| carl_baldwin | What have we left out? | 15:37 |
| reedip | carl_baldwin, john_davige : wanted to know if l2_adjacency would be false if we have a single segment | 15:38 |
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| mlavalle | tah is when l2_adjacency is true, as far as I understand it | 15:39 |
| carl_baldwin | reedip: I wouldn't count segments. I think if subnets are associated with segments then it should be false. | 15:39 |
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| reedip | hmm ... okay | 15:39 |
| carl_baldwin | A multi-segmented network might start out as a single segment but with the intention that it become multi-segmented soon. | 15:39 |
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| mlavalle | That makes sense | 15:40 |
| reedip | john-davidge had this comment, so wanted to know for sure | 15:40 |
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| mlavalle | The intention being signaled be associating subnets to the segment | 15:40 |
| carl_baldwin | I don't want the value of l2adjacency to suddenly change when a new segment is added. | 15:40 |
| john-davidge | carl_baldwin: Perhaps I misunderstood the spec, but that's how I read it | 15:41 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: ++ | 15:41 |
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| john-davidge | https://specs.openstack.org/openstack/neutron-specs/specs/newton/routed-networks.html#l2-adjacency | 15:42 |
| reedip | john-davidge : thanks for the comment though, made things clear :) | 15:42 |
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| john-davidge | according to the above ^^^ l2 adjacency should be true only if there is a single segment | 15:42 |
| carl_baldwin | john-davidge: Unfortunately, we didn't get some updates in to the spec. | 15:42 |
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| carl_baldwin | :( | 15:42 |
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| carl_baldwin | That is my mistake. I meant to get that updated but did not. | 15:43 |
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| john-davidge | carl_baldwin: Ok, so the new expectation is that l2_adjeacency will be true only if the netowkr has zero segments? | 15:43 |
| mlavalle | john-davidge: yeah, that is how I read it a few months ago. But I think that we should expect this evolution in thinking happen, as we develop the functionality | 15:43 |
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| reedip | mlavalle, john-davidge, carl_baldwin : can you review and let me know how to move forward with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/304647/ , whenever you have time? | 15:43 |
| mlavalle | carl_baldwin, john-davidge: wrestling with the code always enhance our understanding | 15:44 |
| carl_baldwin | john-davidge: Not really. It will be true only if there are no subnets associated with segments. | 15:44 |
| john-davidge | carl_baldwin: Ah, ok | 15:44 |
| carl_baldwin | john-davidge: Sorry about that confusion and thanks for your diligence. This one really is on me. I forgot that was not properly changed in the spec. | 15:45 |
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| mlavalle | Yeah, in both cases the question is what subnets are associated to | 15:45 |
| john-davidge | carl_baldwin: No worries, thanks for the clarification. I guess I missed the discussion where that chnaged | 15:45 |
| carl_baldwin | I'll post an update to the spec but those aren't always given much priority. But, at least we'll have an update to reference. | 15:45 |
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| carl_baldwin | #action carl_baldwin will post update to clarify l2adjacency in the spec. | 15:46 |
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| carl_baldwin | reedip: I will review the update. | 15:48 |
| carl_baldwin | reedip: Thanks for your work there. | 15:48 |
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| carl_baldwin | Anything else? | 15:50 |
| mlavalle | Late last week janzian, yb and I had a conversation about adding tempest tests for routed networks | 15:50 |
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| mlavalle | janzian is going to follow up soon adding segment api support to the neutron driver in tempest | 15:51 |
| mlavalle | and the api tests | 15:51 |
| mlavalle | yb will be working on a scenario test | 15:51 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: It will be great to have well tested code in Newton. I hope we can set a good example. | 15:52 |
| janzian | Yes, please tear my code apart when I get it up for review :) | 15:52 |
| carl_baldwin | Speaking of good examples, we also need good documentation. I started writing some but haven't completed it. | 15:53 |
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| carl_baldwin | janzian: :) I hope that's not what I'm doing when I review. But, I like to be thorough. | 15:53 |
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| carl_baldwin | I will recommit to creating some documentation -- at least a complete draft -- by the end of Newton-3. | 15:54 |
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| carl_baldwin | Anything else? | 15:55 |
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| carl_baldwin | Going once... | 15:56 |
| carl_baldwin | ... twice ... | 15:56 |
| carl_baldwin | #endmeeting | 15:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:57 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 15:57:02 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:57 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-07-05-15.01.html | 15:57 |
| carl_baldwin | Thanks! | 15:57 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-07-05-15.01.txt | 15:57 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-07-05-15.01.log.html | 15:57 |
| john-davidge | bye o/ | 15:57 |
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| sridhar_ram | #startmeeting tacker | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 16:00:53 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sridhar_ram. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tacker' | 16:00 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Roll Call | 16:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:01 | |
| vishwanathj | o/ | 16:01 |
| dkushwaha__ | o/ | 16:01 |
| tbh | o/ | 16:01 |
| janki | o/ | 16:01 |
| sripriya | o/ | 16:01 |
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| sridhar_ram | howdy all ! | 16:01 |
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| manikanta_tadi | o/ | 16:02 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM_: are you here ? | 16:02 |
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| KanagarajM_ | sridhar_ram, hi | 16:02 |
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| sridhar_ram | alright, lets start.. | 16:02 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Agenda | 16:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:02 | |
| sridhar_ram | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Tacker | 16:03 |
| s3wong | o/ | 16:03 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Annoucements | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Annoucements (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:03 | |
| sridhar_ram | master based python-tackerclient is released | 16:03 |
| sridhar_ram | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-announce/2016-June/001259.html | 16:03 |
| sridhar_ram | going forward we will make regular client releases based off master | 16:04 |
| KanagarajM_ | Nice :) | 16:04 |
| sridhar_ram | Doodle poll to narrow down the date / time for Midcycle meetup is at.. | 16:04 |
| sridhar_ram | #link http://doodle.com/poll/qzsagbhnhqbuurth | 16:04 |
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| sridhar_ram | Please respond to the poll | 16:05 |
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| * sridhar_ram notes to send this poll link to ML | 16:05 | |
| sridhar_ram | OpenStack Barcelona Summit talk submission is coming up - July 13th! | 16:05 |
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| sridhar_ram | moving on... | 16:05 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic Audit Event log | 16:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Audit Event log (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:06 | |
| sridhar_ram | vishwanathj: KanagarajM_: please take it away | 16:06 |
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| vishwanathj | sridhar_ram thanks .... | 16:06 |
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| vishwanathj | I think at this time, KanagarajM_ and I believe that the spec is in a reasonable shape for other reviewers including core reviewers to start reviewing and provide feedback ...... | 16:07 |
| sripriya | vishwanathj: can you please share the link? | 16:08 |
| vishwanathj | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/321370/ | 16:08 |
| sripriya | vishwanathj: thanks | 16:08 |
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| sridhar_ram | vishwanathj: KanagarajM_: are Horizon UI changes just going to be per resource ? | 16:09 |
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| sridhar_ram | are you envisioning any general "Events" tab that spans across all tacker resources ? | 16:10 |
| vishwanathj | sridhar_ram, yes we are envisoning a general "Event" tab..... | 16:10 |
| sridhar_ram | vishwanathj: okay | 16:10 |
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| vishwanathj | however, would want to first focus on getting the per resources implementation working..... | 16:11 |
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| sridhar_ram | vishwanathj: sure, that can be a follow on.. | 16:11 |
| vishwanathj | the Events tab display in Horizon would be easier given the way data is structured in the database.... | 16:11 |
| sridhar_ram | agree | 16:12 |
| sridhar_ram | on my side, i'm good to sign off on this one .. i don't see any major blocker at this time | 16:12 |
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| vishwanathj | also we are making an attempt to keep the paradigm for accessing events in Horizon and tacker client similar.... | 16:12 |
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| vishwanathj | the idea in Horizon for e.g; when you click on a VNF, it would display VNF details in one tab and would have another tab for list of asscociated events.... | 16:13 |
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| sripriya | vishwanathj: will we be retaining events data for ever or is there some kind of an expiry on the data? | 16:13 |
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| michael_bredel | o/ | 16:14 |
| vishwanathj | similarly in tacker client when the tacker vnf-show <id> command is executed, we are thinking of displaying VNF details info along with VNF event details info | 16:14 |
| neel | o/ | 16:14 |
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| vishwanathj | KanragarajM_ feel free to chime in..... | 16:15 |
| sridhar_ram | vishwanathj: VNF visibility is a huge deal for NFV ... | 16:15 |
| anshukch | o/ | 16:15 |
| sridhar_ram | vishwanathj: we shd make this a prominent 'first-class' feature of any Tacker resource | 16:15 |
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| vishwanathj | sripriya, there will be a command provided to purge entries from database.... | 16:16 |
| sridhar_ram | lets not relegate this into a show command ooption | 16:16 |
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| vishwanathj | sridhar_ram I see your point for the VNFs | 16:16 |
| sripriya | vishwanathj: i see that, thanks | 16:16 |
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| sridhar_ram | sounds good... | 16:17 |
| vishwanathj | sridhar_ram, there will be a separate events level support for all resources.... | 16:17 |
| vishwanathj | additionally for VNF resources, we plan to have vnf-show-events style command as per your feedback | 16:18 |
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| sridhar_ram | cool, I'd encourage other reviewers to provide their comments / +1s / +2s.. | 16:18 |
| vishwanathj | KanagaragM_ anything that you want to add I might have missed .... | 16:19 |
| manikanta_tadi | +1 for vnf-show-events style command | 16:19 |
| KanagarajM_ | vishwanathj, i think all covered | 16:19 |
| sridhar_ram | okay, let's move on.. | 16:20 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Network Services Descriptor (NSD) | 16:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Network Services Descriptor (NSD) (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:20 | |
| sridhar_ram | #link https://review.openstack.org/304667 | 16:20 |
| sridhar_ram | dkushwaha__: tbh: please take over.. | 16:20 |
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| dkushwaha__ | sridhar_ram, thanks. | 16:21 |
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| dkushwaha__ | sridhar_ram, I have committed WIP prototype patches for nsd | 16:22 |
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| dkushwaha__ | in which tbh also working with me | 16:22 |
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| sridhar_ram | the main thing IMO to be resolved for this effort is (a) scope of this initial NSD work and (b) tosca-parser dependency | 16:23 |
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| sridhar_ram | on the scope, the spec should describe what is the plan for .. | 16:24 |
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| sridhar_ram | (a) VNFFG embedded in NSD .. will this be supported ? | 16:24 |
| tbh | sridhar_ram, regarding the tosca-parser dependency, do you think we have any dependencies on tosca-parser apart from substitution_mappings? | 16:24 |
| sridhar_ram | (b) can each VNF be placed in different VIMs ? | 16:24 |
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| sridhar_ram | tbh: substition_mapping is probably the main thing.. but there might be others that you would get to know only when you starting trying :) | 16:25 |
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| sridhar_ram | back to scope, my suggestion is to introduce this with limited scope - to support just VNFs, VLs and not support VNFFG in the initial NSD | 16:27 |
| tbh | sridhar_ram, sure, for VNF placement I think we are taking --vim-id input, dkushwaha__ am I correct? | 16:27 |
| sridhar_ram | also restrict it, all VNFs in the same VIM | 16:27 |
| KanagarajM_ | tdh: this would need nested template support generation from heat-translator. | 16:27 |
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| dkushwaha__ | sridhar_ram, tbh yes. | 16:27 |
| KanagarajM_ | sridhar_ram, as VNFD already supports to place across VIM, will it be an issue for supporting in NSD ? | 16:28 |
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| dkushwaha__ | sridhar_ram, currently I planed scope with to support just VNFs, VLs | 16:28 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM_: no, we shouldn't take that approach | 16:28 |
| sridhar_ram | Tacker-NSD feature should call Tacker-VNFM to stand-up each VNF specified in the NSD | 16:28 |
| tbh | KanagarajM_, can you elaborate on nested template support? | 16:29 |
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| sridhar_ram | I've placed a midcycle meetup topic to discussion Tacker NFVO and Tacker VNFM separation | 16:29 |
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| KanagarajM_ | tbh, As NSD is containing VNFD and VNFD is already an HOT tempalte, you may endup in placing multiple VNFD hot template inside NSD HOT tempalate | 16:30 |
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| sridhar_ram | we should avoid Tacker NFVO features to be tightly coupled with Tacker VNFM | 16:30 |
| KanagarajM_ | tbh, but i see the sridhar_ram point too | 16:30 |
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| sridhar_ram | i envision we might end up having two git repos in the near future .. one for tacker-nfvo and one for tacker-vnfm | 16:31 |
| KanagarajM_ | sridhar_ram, yes. that is good to address | 16:31 |
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| tbh | KanagarajM_, got it thanks | 16:32 |
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| sridhar_ram | this is one of the learnings from the recent OPNFV summit :) | 16:32 |
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| sridhar_ram | tbh: dkushwaha__ : please continue to shape / iterate on the spec... describe the scope clearly.. what it will do and *more importantly* what it will NOT do :) | 16:33 |
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| sridhar_ram | we also could make use of a workflow engine like mistral to implement.. | 16:34 |
| dkushwaha__ | sridhar_ram, yup, I will update the spec this week | 16:34 |
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| sridhar_ram | .. instead of coding all the workflow steps in python.. | 16:34 |
| sridhar_ram | there are pros and cons to such an approach.. | 16:34 |
| * sridhar_ram wonders if bobh is here .. | 16:34 | |
| tbh | sridhar_ram, sure will update the spec based on recent learnings | 16:34 |
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| * bobh is on a conf call and not really paying attention.... | 16:35 | |
| sridhar_ram | tbh: dkushwaha__ : sounds good.. | 16:35 |
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| michael_bredel | Sonata includes Mistral as workflow engine. If you want, we can share our experiences at some point | 16:36 |
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| sridhar_ram | we can make this a recurring agenda item for next few weekly meeting to track its progress | 16:36 |
| sridhar_ram | michael_bredel: that would be great! | 16:36 |
| dkushwaha__ | sridhar_ram, yes sure | 16:36 |
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| sridhar_ram | IMO, if we can embrace a full-featured worflow engine like Mistral, we can achieve lot more feature velocity by generating worflow templates for features instead of coding lot of python code to achieve the same | 16:38 |
| sridhar_ram | perhaps this could be another Midcycle topic.. | 16:38 |
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| sridhar_ram | michael_bredel: would you be able to join our midcycle meetup to share you Sonata<->Mistral experience ? | 16:38 |
| KanagarajM_ | sridhar_ram, I completely agree on it ! | 16:38 |
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| sridhar_ram | anything else on NSD ? | 16:39 |
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| dkushwaha__ | sridhar_ram, currently no from my side. | 16:40 |
| sridhar_ram | okay, lets move on... | 16:40 |
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| sridhar_ram | tbh: dkushwaha__: nice to see you both picking this piece up! | 16:40 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic Midcycle Meetup Topics | 16:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Midcycle Meetup Topics (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:41 | |
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| sridhar_ram | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tacker-newton-midcycle | 16:41 |
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| sridhar_ram | Please RSVP on this etherpad if you plan to join | 16:41 |
| sridhar_ram | Need less to say, if you would like to discuss a particular topic .. please add them | 16:43 |
| sridhar_ram | based on the content, we can make it 1-day or 2-day event | 16:43 |
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| KanagarajM_ | sridhar_ram, shall we keep the things to discuss on newton cycle priority | 16:43 |
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| KanagarajM_ | sridhar_ram, you have listed many topics for meetup ! | 16:44 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM_: you mean the things currently in flight for Newton ? | 16:44 |
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| KanagarajM_ | sridhar_ram, currently in and planned for newton | 16:45 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM_: sure, we can discuss them.. | 16:45 |
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| sridhar_ram | We have always tried to balance with things in flight + the upcoming roadmap | 16:45 |
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| sridhar_ram | Next, the biggest challenge I've is to find a timeslot that would ensure max participation | 16:46 |
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| sridhar_ram | I see we are spread across vast diff timezones | 16:47 |
| KanagarajM_ | sridhar_ram, yeah. timezone really seems difficult part | 16:47 |
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| sridhar_ram | I've picked early morning PDT that overlaps with late afternoon / evening in India.. but is late evening for Korea | 16:48 |
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| KanagarajM_ | it comes between 7:30 PM to 1:30 AM for india | 16:48 |
| sridhar_ram | US East coast and CET (Central European) gets reasonable | 16:49 |
| sridhar_ram | *has reasonable timing | 16:49 |
| sridhar_ram | perhaps we can go one hour earlier ? | 16:49 |
| sridhar_ram | or make it two-days and reduce the hours | 16:50 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: np.. still keep time if it is fine for almost guys :) | 16:50 |
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| sridhar_ram | may be both :) | 16:50 |
| dkushwaha__ | sridhar_ram, I missed few weekly meetings due to timezone only, as it is 1AM JST :( | 16:50 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: I'm trying my best to see if you can join..! | 16:50 |
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| sridhar_ram | dkushwaha__: ouch! | 16:50 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: thanks :) | 16:52 |
| sridhar_ram | okay, should we do 2-day / 5-hour slots starting at 6AM PDT, 6:30PM IST ? | 16:52 |
| KanagarajM_ | sridhar_ram, its better choice | 16:52 |
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| janki | sridhar_ram: better option | 16:52 |
| sridhar_ram | any violet objections ? | 16:52 |
| sridhar_ram | *violent | 16:53 |
| * sridhar_ram looks at sripriya | 16:53 | |
| * sridhar_ram .. and s3won | 16:53 | |
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| sripriya | sridhar_ram: 2-day works fine IMO | 16:54 |
| sridhar_ram | sripriya: okay | 16:54 |
| sridhar_ram | let's spread the suffering :) | 16:54 |
| sridhar_ram | lets pencil this in.. | 16:54 |
| sridhar_ram | will send a note to ML | 16:54 |
| sripriya | sridhar_ram: coffeee to the rescue | 16:54 |
| sridhar_ram | sripriya: absolutely! | 16:54 |
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| sridhar_ram | anything on this subject ? | 16:55 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic Open Discussion | 16:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:55 | |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: we should also circle back to your monitoring spec.. lets discuss that in the next week's meeting to see if we can wrap that up | 16:56 |
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| KanagarajM_ | please start to review https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+branch:master+topic:tacker-scaling | 16:57 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: yes, right.. i really want. thanks, sridhar | 16:57 |
| sridhar_ram | looks we are done for today.. | 16:57 |
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| sridhar_ram | thanks everyone for joining | 16:57 |
| sridhar_ram | #endmeeting | 16:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:57 | |
| KanagarajM_ | bye. | 16:57 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 16:57:27 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:57 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-07-05-16.00.html | 16:57 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-07-05-16.00.txt | 16:57 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-07-05-16.00.log.html | 16:57 |
| tung_doan | bye | 16:57 |
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| cathy_ | #startmeeting network_common_flow_classifier | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 17:00:49 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is cathy_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'network_common_flow_classifier' | 17:00 |
| cathy_ | hi there | 17:01 |
| igordcard | hello cathy_ | 17:01 |
| davidsha | Hey! | 17:01 |
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| cathy_ | anyone else joining this meeting? Sorry It was US National holiday and long weekend. I did not send out meeting reminder notice. | 17:02 |
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| davidsha | I'm pinging ajo | 17:03 |
| igordcard | hope you've had a great 4th of july | 17:03 |
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| cathy_ | igordcard: thanks | 17:03 |
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| ajo | hi , I'm on another company meting, I didnt' realize we had this | 17:03 |
| ajo | I'll try to be on both | 17:03 |
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| ajo | ping me when necessary | 17:03 |
| cathy_ | ajo: sorry about this. I forgot to send out the meeting notice due to holiday | 17:04 |
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| ajo | np, ping me when you think it's relevant, I will try to follow the meeting | 17:04 |
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| cathy_ | igordcard: davidsha I do not have any urgent issues on my side | 17:04 |
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| cathy_ | igordcard, Louis and I have worked on the spec and posted it for review | 17:05 |
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| cathy_ | So I think we need to wait for more people's review comments | 17:05 |
| igordcard | cathy_: it's now reposted in neutron-specs | 17:05 |
| igordcard | cathy_: all your content preserved | 17:05 |
| cathy_ | igordcard: Ok | 17:05 |
| ajo | link? | 17:05 |
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| cathy_ | igordcard: I see some comments. would you like to respond to it? | 17:06 |
| davidsha | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/333993/ | 17:06 |
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| igordcard | thanks davidsha | 17:06 |
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| cathy_ | davidsha: thanks | 17:06 |
| igordcard | cathy_: yes, I'd appreciate more feedback on approach (at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/333993/) | 17:06 |
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| igordcard | cathy_: I'm also going to provide more feedback about at least approach 1 | 17:07 |
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| cathy_ | igordcard: Ok. | 17:07 |
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| cathy_ | Regarding the bug status, looks like it is not in rfe-approved yet | 17:07 |
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| cathy_ | I see Armando's comment and he would like more clear description of the spec. | 17:08 |
| cathy_ | igordcard: I assume that you will reply to Armando's comment. OK with you? | 17:08 |
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| davidsha | He's reviewing the spec as well, so the conversation will probably be moved to there now. | 17:09 |
| igordcard | cathy_: yes we need to converge on an approach so we can then start discussing the internals, which seems to be what armax is mostly looking for | 17:09 |
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| igordcard | cathy_: any specific comment? | 17:10 |
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| cathy_ | igordcard: you can probably first reply to his comments inline. We can then discuss the approaches in next meeting when more people will join. | 17:10 |
| cathy_ | I will send a reminder of the meeting next time. | 17:11 |
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| cathy_ | Let's continue working on the spec and comments. | 17:11 |
| igordcard | cathy_: sure I'll be replying to the best I can, especially for approach 2 | 17:12 |
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| igordcard | cathy_: but please check as well since there might be questions or doubts about the other approaches too | 17:12 |
| igordcard | cathy_: yeah | 17:12 |
| cathy_ | igordcard: OK | 17:12 |
| cathy_ | I guess we can end the meeting today and resume in two weeks | 17:13 |
| cathy_ | igordcard: davidsha OK with you? | 17:13 |
| igordcard | also, he's commented in the RFE and pointed to the following neutron-drivers meeting minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2016/neutron_drivers.2016-06-30-22.00.log.html#l-86 | 17:13 |
| davidsha | kk, just to throw it out there PS 2 of flow manager is up | 17:13 |
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| cathy_ | davidsha: could you clarify what you mean? | 17:14 |
| cathy_ | there PS 2 of flow manager is up? | 17:14 |
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| davidsha | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323963/ | 17:14 |
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| davidsha | flow table management it the WIP to ajos spec. | 17:15 |
| cathy_ | Which spec are these codes for? | 17:15 |
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| davidsha | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/320439 | 17:15 |
| igordcard | awesome davidsha, I'll have a review of it too | 17:15 |
| cathy_ | davidsha: thanks, will take a look and ask others to review too | 17:16 |
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| davidsha | igordcard, cathy_ : thanks | 17:16 |
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| cathy_ | davidsha: welcome! | 17:16 |
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| cathy_ | Ok, bye for now. talk to you later. | 17:16 |
| cathy_ | #endmeeting | 17:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:17 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 17:17:17 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:17 |
| davidsha | cathy_: thanks! | 17:17 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2016/network_common_flow_classifier.2016-07-05-17.00.html | 17:17 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2016/network_common_flow_classifier.2016-07-05-17.00.txt | 17:17 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2016/network_common_flow_classifier.2016-07-05-17.00.log.html | 17:17 |
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| igordcard | cya all | 17:17 |
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| rodrigods | o/ | 17:59 |
| stevemar | o/ | 17:59 |
| stevemar | #startmeeting keystone | 18:00 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 18:00:04 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:00 |
| stevemar | reminder for ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, MaxPC, morgan, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tjcocozz, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek | 18:00 |
| roxanaghe | o/ | 18:00 |
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| knikolla | o/ | 18:00 |
| xek | o/ | 18:00 |
| jaugustine | hello | 18:00 |
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| MeganR | o/ | 18:00 |
| gyee | \o | 18:00 |
| raildo | o/ | 18:00 |
| stevemar | agenda: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting | 18:00 |
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| gagehugo | o/ | 18:01 |
| dolphm | \o | 18:01 |
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| dstanek | o/ | 18:01 |
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| stevemar | give it a minute or so, lazy cores not showing up >.< | 18:01 |
| shaleh | \o | 18:01 |
| stevemar | oh there they are | 18:01 |
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| henrynash | hi | 18:01 |
| stevemar | everyone ready to talk about specs! | 18:01 |
| henrynash | (laxy core, present and correct) | 18:01 |
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| jamielennox | o/ | 18:02 |
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| samueldmq | hi everyone o/ | 18:02 |
| stevemar | quick first topic before the spec talk | 18:02 |
| stevemar | #topic api-ref sprint | 18:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "api-ref sprint (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| stevemar | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-api-sprint | 18:02 |
| stevemar | all the details are there | 18:02 |
| stevemar | basically, once https://review.openstack.org/#/c/337805/ merges, then http://developer.openstack.org/api-ref-identity-v3.html will pull from the keystone repo | 18:03 |
| stevemar | only trouble is, those are out of date and don't match what we've been doing here: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/keystone-specs/ :( | 18:03 |
| stevemar | I wanted to have a day or two to sprint on getting the APIs from our specs repo migrated over to the API site in the keystone repo | 18:04 |
| gyee | out-of-day? | 18:04 |
| gyee | v3 or v2? | 18:04 |
| stevemar | gyee: out of day? | 18:04 |
| gyee | s/day/date/ | 18:04 |
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| dstanek | stevemar: a sprint is a good idea | 18:05 |
| stevemar | gyee: yes, previously those APIs were maintained by the docs team, but that didn't scale | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | so now each project is keeping an api-ref directory in their project repo | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | see: https://github.com/openstack/keystone/tree/master/api-ref/source | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | there is some content missing, i've outline what is missing in the TODO section of the etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-api-sprint | 18:06 |
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| shaleh | stevemar: bug friday work? | 18:06 |
| dstanek | stevemar: when do you plan on sprinting? | 18:07 |
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| stevemar | dstanek: the dates are on the etherpad, july 13 and 14th | 18:07 |
| gyee | stevemar, we still care about WADLs and XSTs from V2 world? | 18:07 |
| stevemar | gyee: there are no more WADLs or XSTs or any of that | 18:07 |
| gyee | oh good! | 18:07 |
| stevemar | gyee: the pieces that need to be filled are all v3 related | 18:07 |
| dstanek | stevemar: those dates work for me | 18:08 |
| stevemar | dstanek: if you're interested, add your name to the volunteers list :) | 18:08 |
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| dstanek | will do | 18:08 |
| stevemar | i'll publish a hangouts link as the day approaches | 18:09 |
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| stevemar | it'll be a quick way to get reviews and commits, i'll focus on those that day | 18:09 |
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| stevemar | if something doesn't make sense, then ask me in -keystone :) | 18:09 |
| gyee | sounds good | 18:09 |
| stevemar | next topic! specs | 18:09 |
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| stevemar | #topic discuss open keystone specs for newton | 18:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "discuss open keystone specs for newton (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:10 | |
| stevemar | we have the keystone feature proposal freeze happening next week: http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 18:10 |
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| stevemar | err sorry | 18:10 |
| stevemar | we have the spec freeze *THIS* week | 18:10 |
| topol | o/ | 18:11 |
| stevemar | so specs have to be merged this week, or they are bumped to ocata | 18:11 |
| stevemar | start bugging cores | 18:11 |
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| stevemar | #topic specs related to federation | 18:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "specs related to federation (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:11 | |
| stevemar | enhance mapping (dolph) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/324055/ | 18:11 |
| stevemar | federated query API (ayoung) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/313604/ | 18:12 |
| stevemar | specify project id (amakarov) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323499/ | 18:12 |
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| stevemar | dolphm's spec has seen a lot of positive feedback | 18:12 |
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| stevemar | ideally i want only one of these to be approved, since i think they are trying to solve the same issue | 18:12 |
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| gyee | enhance mapping doesn't seem to solve custom project Id, as far as I can tell | 18:12 |
| stevemar | ayoung and amakarov are not here to defend :( | 18:13 |
| stevemar | dolphm: can you speak to that point? ^ | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | it allows you specify a project name, and if that isn't created it does on dmeand | 18:13 |
| gyee | I did a quick review this morning and had a few concerns | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | demand | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | iirc | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | gyee: ^ | 18:13 |
| stevemar | gyee: the custom project ID was (IIRC) so federating projects could happen | 18:13 |
| stevemar | gyee: are your concerns blockers? | 18:14 |
| shaleh | But amarakov was interested in more than just federated, right? | 18:14 |
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| gyee | samueldmq, stevemar, that's for mirroring projects, same ID, same name, same everything | 18:14 |
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| gyee | shaleh, right, basically, replicating projects | 18:14 |
| jamielennox | creating with a custom project id was a cheap version of replication - i'm still not convinced we should allow that | 18:14 |
| henrynash | jamielennox: ++ | 18:15 |
| samueldmq | gyee: If any of those projects or roles do not exist, they must be created by Keystone automatically. | 18:15 |
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| stevemar | gyee: what jamielennox said | 18:15 |
| samueldmq | gyee: from the spec ^ | 18:15 |
| gyee | jamielennox, sure, but that's a different argument | 18:15 |
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| jamielennox | gyee: why? if we don't need it then we don't need to cover the spec | 18:15 |
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| stevemar | gyee: the mapping enhancements that dolph proposed will create the project automatically if it's not there | 18:15 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: exactly | 18:16 |
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| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/324055/ | 18:16 |
| gyee | stevemar, that's very different than asking for the same project ID :-) | 18:16 |
| shaleh | as for dolphm's spec I like the idea of it but I share ayoung's concern over testability and maintainability | 18:16 |
| gyee | so those specs are unrelated | 18:16 |
| dstanek | i really don't like the idea of supporting replication through the api | 18:16 |
| dstanek | there be dragons there and i don't like dragons | 18:16 |
| shaleh | there is a lot of room for oops and not a lot of great ways to test it. | 18:16 |
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| shaleh | dstanek: agreed | 18:16 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: ++ | 18:16 |
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| gyee | I am merely pointing out that the two are unrelated | 18:17 |
| shaleh | dolphm: as an operator making map files how do you intend for them to ensure they are not over/under specing? | 18:17 |
| stevemar | gyee: they are not as unrelated as you think | 18:17 |
| gyee | so we are not confused | 18:17 |
| dolphm | dstanek: shaleh: which spec has dragons? all 3 result in some means of "replication" | 18:17 |
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| stevemar | gyee: they are both trying to solve the case of federating keystones | 18:17 |
| gyee | stevemar, no, the replicate project one is very different | 18:18 |
| shaleh | stevemar: amarakov was not necessarily using federation. | 18:18 |
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| dolphm | shaleh: "over / under speccing" as in granting or not granting enough authorization? | 18:18 |
| shaleh | stevemar: he just has multiple datacenters trying to use the same data | 18:18 |
| gyee | dolphm, does mapping allowed replicating by ID? | 18:18 |
| dstanek | dolphm: 'specify project id (amakarov) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323499/' moreso than yours, but it's possible yours can be abused too? | 18:18 |
| shaleh | dolphm: yes. or mistaking the projects named, etc. | 18:18 |
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| shaleh | dolphm: as you point out in the spec when an oops is found the clean up can be non-trivial. | 18:19 |
| ayoung | shaleh, question for you later...don't disappear | 18:19 |
| dolphm | gyee: i only specified it for project names, but you could extend it to project IDs if there was a use case | 18:19 |
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| shaleh | dolphm: while I do not 100% agree with ayoung's spec I like the problems he raises | 18:19 |
| gyee | dolphm, if we extend it to project IDs then we can close the other one | 18:19 |
| stevemar | ayoung: welcome | 18:20 |
| shaleh | ayoung: k | 18:20 |
| gyee | that's precisely what the other one wants | 18:20 |
| jamielennox | and i'd still be -1 | 18:20 |
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| ayoung | luddites. | 18:21 |
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| ayoung | myself included | 18:21 |
| gyee | -1 for what? | 18:21 |
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| jamielennox | don't specifiy project id! | 18:21 |
| gyee | duuuude | 18:21 |
| jamielennox | anywhere! | 18:21 |
| shaleh | dolphm: I would be positive on your spec if we included some helping mechanism like ayoung proposes. | 18:21 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, I like that | 18:21 |
| ayoung | treat ids like inodes | 18:21 |
| ayoung | how often do you specify anything by inode id | 18:22 |
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| stevemar | gyee: do any other APIs allow to specify ids? | 18:22 |
| gyee | jamielennox, what we are offering is choice and flexibility, didn't ops said galera replication falls over after certain number of masters? | 18:22 |
| jamielennox | anyway personal opinion, dolphm to fix spec to commit this cycle - others not | 18:22 |
| ayoung | TODO list: 1. Kille domains. 2. Make projects hierarchical. 3. Make project name a URL | 18:22 |
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| shaleh | ayoung: not there yet :-) | 18:23 |
| ayoung | shaleh, I've beeen *there* for 4+ years now | 18:23 |
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| gyee | ayoung, unless you enjoying typing the entire url via cURL | 18:23 |
| shaleh | ayoung: no, I mean we are talking about other specs at the moment | 18:23 |
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| ayoung | gyee, no problem | 18:23 |
| ayoung | its called a hyperlink | 18:23 |
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| ayoung | new fangled thing | 18:24 |
| ayoung | think it is going to catch on | 18:24 |
| gyee | lets make ayoung type in his LDAP DN every time he authenticates | 18:24 |
| stevemar | :) | 18:24 |
| ayoung | gyee, nah, I want LDAP to convert to using URLs too | 18:24 |
| stevemar | ayoung: can the snark :P | 18:24 |
| ayoung | X500 notation is gah | 18:24 |
| shaleh | dolphm: in classic ops there is a testing env before rolling a change out to prod. I do not see a sensible way to validate the mapping change in testing env. | 18:24 |
| ayoung | stevemar, all this is, strange to say, that I like and support dolphm's spec | 18:25 |
| gyee | shaleh, if you don't validate mapping during testing, you are asking for trouble :-) | 18:25 |
| stevemar | ayoung: \o/ hallelujah | 18:25 |
| ayoung | stevemar, I think that, however, we are going to need all those other things I posted only "seemingly" humorously | 18:25 |
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| ayoung | we need to kill, or at least, de-emphasize domains | 18:26 |
| henrynash | proposal: dolph’s speec gets the nod, the others are bumped | 18:26 |
| ayoung | we need to have the ability to have users be self adminig for common tasks | 18:26 |
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| stevemar | henrynash: i was just writing that | 18:26 |
| gyee | you can self admin today, just tweak the policies | 18:26 |
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| henrynash | esp, man, esp | 18:26 |
| ayoung | we need to be able to ahve a project on keystone-over-there mirrored in this keystone for federation, but the unique namiong thing gets in the way | 18:26 |
| stevemar | gyee: are your concerns about dolphm's spec blockers? | 18:26 |
| topol | ayoung did you check with henrynash on your domain bashing? I think he needs them for something | 18:26 |
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| ayoung | topol, nah he is having them forced on him | 18:27 |
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| stevemar | gyee: ? | 18:27 |
| ayoung | to aboid the the strict naming thing | 18:27 |
| gyee | stevemar, no, if you guys added id mapping, I am happy | 18:27 |
| henrynash | (ducks) | 18:27 |
| stevemar | okay, done | 18:27 |
| stevemar | dolphm's spec gets the nod, provided he does some clean up of the current iteration | 18:27 |
| ayoung | henrynash is a pragmatist, and working within the policies of the current Amdminstration | 18:27 |
| stevemar | others are bumped for now | 18:27 |
| stevemar | #topic specs related to service-to-service communication | 18:27 |
| ayoung | stevemar, list of "opthers" | 18:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "specs related to service-to-service communication (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:27 | |
| * ayoung had network issue | 18:28 | |
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| stevemar | ayoung: federated query API (ayoung) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/313604/ and specify project id (amakarov) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323499/ | 18:28 |
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| stevemar | ayoung: OK to continue to next topic? | 18:28 |
| ayoung | stevemar, yeah, I can live with that | 18:28 |
| ayoung | s2s is important | 18:28 |
| stevemar | ayoung: ty | 18:28 |
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| stevemar | jamielennox: you're on the hot seat | 18:28 |
| gyee | stevemar, no need to bump project id, we just need to merge it with dolphm's | 18:28 |
| ayoung | and I I think jamielennox 's approach is good | 18:28 |
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| dstanek | fg | 18:29 |
| stevemar | gyee: do a follow on patch then | 18:29 |
| gyee | stevemar, yes sir | 18:29 |
| jamielennox | so, i think the service users spec got nacked by the security group and i kind of agree with them | 18:29 |
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| jamielennox | the reservations spec still needs a better name and a lot more work | 18:29 |
| * topol me too :-) | 18:29 | |
| jamielennox | i'm hoping to get some time with people at the midcylce to hash out some more details and make sure everyone understands it | 18:30 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, operational tokens | 18:30 |
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| jamielennox | hopefully have code examples too | 18:30 |
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| stevemar | jamielennox: i left some comments there, i'm not sure if there's an operation that uses the token multiple times right now | 18:30 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, a reservation, as you origianlly described it, is a rule to transition | 18:30 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: so you're aiming for Ocata ? | 18:30 |
| ayoung | from the token a user origianlly requests, | 18:31 |
| ayoung | to permissions for a specified operation. | 18:31 |
| stevemar | samueldmq: i would think it's newton | 18:31 |
| jamielennox | So abandon one, and i want to work with people on the reservations one over the next few months and land early ocata | 18:31 |
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| stevemar | okay | 18:31 |
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| jamielennox | i think of it as capability tokens but whatever, i've been trying to avoid saying token | 18:31 |
| stevemar | jamielennox: can you abandon the correct one | 18:31 |
| ayoung | the idea of a "reservation" though, is that you go to glance and create the reservation. Lets drop that word | 18:31 |
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| * topol reservations always reminds me of Dave Cheritons famous paper on Leases. If anyone besides me and ayoung remember that work | 18:31 | |
| ayoung | it really does not reflect your current design | 18:31 |
| ayoung | topol, oooh | 18:31 |
| ayoung | Lease.... | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | topol, can you find a link? | 18:32 |
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| topol | sure | 18:32 |
| dolphm | #link http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs240/readings/89-leases.pdf | 18:32 |
| gyee | we have trust, oauth, and now reservations, goody | 18:32 |
| dolphm | topol: ^ | 18:32 |
| stevemar | well since one is abandoned and the other is targeting ocata, i don't see a reason to continue this topic | 18:32 |
| ayoung | 1989 | 18:32 |
| topol | http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs240/readings/89-leases.pdf | 18:32 |
| stevemar | jamielennox: are you OK with that? | 18:33 |
| topol | 2nd place | 18:33 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: ++ | 18:33 |
| jamielennox | stevemar: yep | 18:33 |
| ayoung | gyee, this is why we wanted unified delegation | 18:33 |
| ayoung | they are all different use cases | 18:33 |
| stevemar | okay, next topic, none of this is landing in newton | 18:33 |
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| stevemar | #topic specs related to HMT | 18:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "specs related to HMT (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:34 | |
| stevemar | henrynash: where's the popcorn? | 18:34 |
| topol | gyee makes a good point listing all the options that makes our consumability difficult | 18:34 |
| henrynash | ok, so https://review.openstack.org/#/c/332940/ is the key | 18:34 |
| henrynash | request last week was to get more feedback | 18:34 |
| ayoung | So...while I think this review is 100% sane and something we should support, not allowing the nested naming under projects is criminal | 18:35 |
| gyee | henrynash, lets do V4 and get it over with :-) | 18:35 |
| henrynash | so far have feedback from 2 operators in the the UK (once called datacentred,who host revenue and customs), plis one other | 18:35 |
| ayoung | gyee, or just accept the relaxation of the rule in V3. We are making people's lives difficult with no reason. | 18:35 |
| ayoung | But...all that asid | 18:35 |
| ayoung | e | 18:35 |
| ayoung | lets get Henry's work going so we can continue to confuse people with domains...which are still not supported in any service other than Keystone | 18:36 |
| topol | could we goto the TC and get the rule relaxed? | 18:36 |
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| ayoung | topol, no, because4 our local TC rep is one of the luddites keeping us here | 18:36 |
| henrynash | so far thefeedback is supportive of the concept, although I agree 2 feedbacks does not give us a lot of cover | 18:36 |
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| gyee | topol, afaik, TC's job is to cut ribbons | 18:36 |
| jamielennox | i still think when combined with things like domain specific backends and domain specific roles this is going to get difficult | 18:36 |
| stevemar | topol: i see no reason they wouldn't say to keep API compat | 18:36 |
| * topol one time mulligan? | 18:36 | |
| ayoung | topol, here's how I see it | 18:37 |
| ayoung | we can punt and say "aok, diomains can be allowed to do this | 18:37 |
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| ayoung | and in doing so, we've kept the letter of the law | 18:37 |
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| ayoung | effectively cr3eaing a feature that is unusable | 18:37 |
| henrynash | ayoung: ? | 18:37 |
| ayoung | and we do that vbecause the fear of relasing the naming within "proejctes" which, as averyone know, are still usually called tenants | 18:38 |
| ayoung | will break something | 18:38 |
| ayoung | henrynash, nested domains | 18:38 |
| ayoung | henrynash, nested domains are legal and useless | 18:38 |
| ayoung | henrynash, we should never have even included the conceopt of domains | 18:38 |
| ayoung | we should have made projects hierarchical from the get go | 18:38 |
| henrynash | ayoung: namespaces are needed | 18:39 |
| ayoung | we should have made IdPs into domains | 18:39 |
| henrynash | ayoung: agreed, we should have done that for projects | 18:39 |
| ayoung | we did neither fo those things and made a mess | 18:39 |
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| ayoung | henrynash, hierarchical projects *should* have been our namespaces | 18:39 |
| ayoung | ajnd henrynash I won't hold this up | 18:39 |
| ayoung | but, prcatically, these are not going to fit in with an tyhning today | 18:39 |
| ayoung | right now, it is all about quota | 18:40 |
| gyee | ayoung, I disagree, that's a long argument we need to have over beers :-) | 18:40 |
| ayoung | and quoata is not a domain option | 18:40 |
| samueldmq | kk, let's just fix the "mess" if we can or leave with it | 18:40 |
| ayoung | gyee, I blame you | 18:40 |
| breton | indeed, we have a lot of simialar concepts sparsely used | 18:40 |
| samueldmq | we can't rollback doamins ... | 18:40 |
| ayoung | gyee, acatull;y, I blame me | 18:40 |
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| henrynash | ayoung: and sicne domains are projects, you DO get quotes here | 18:40 |
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| ayoung | so...why do we want this? | 18:40 |
| gyee | the reasons for domains are well stated | 18:40 |
| ayoung | henrynash, not really | 18:40 |
| ayoung | henrynash, quoats are assigned on projects *under* domains today | 18:41 |
| ayoung | so if I get a domain scoped token, and iti s under another domain it will not fit under current quota | 18:41 |
| henrynash | ayoung: since they were designed before projects could ast as domains, now we have that, this can be repalces | 18:41 |
| rodrigods | ayoung, you can get a project scoped token | 18:41 |
| rodrigods | with the is_domain on it | 18:41 |
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| ayoung | gyee, the reasons are solid, the fact that they were not done as projects was the mistake | 18:41 |
| rodrigods | right? | 18:41 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: ++ | 18:41 |
| henrynash | rodigods: ++ | 18:42 |
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| rodrigods | so you can enforce this in the policy files | 18:42 |
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| raildo | today, we can set quota for a "domain" using, the project acting as domain since mitaka | 18:42 |
| ayoung | what we need is a way to do openstack <operation> --user-domain-name=somedomain --proejct=name=test and have that work when there are two projects named test | 18:42 |
| rodrigods | and to set "domain" quotas, just need to add the is_domain in the policy rule | 18:43 |
| ayoung | the rest of this is avoiduing that discussion | 18:43 |
| gyee | you can't get a project-scoped token with is_domain set to True today, can you? | 18:43 |
| ayoung | irrelevant | 18:43 |
| ayoung | domains are not a concept we can have outside of Keystone today. We need nested projects for the rest of the world, not for Keystone | 18:43 |
| ayoung | this *is* namespaceing | 18:43 |
| ayoung | and we missed the opportunity to do it right...years agbo | 18:44 |
| ayoung | ago | 18:44 |
| ayoung | hell, we inherited it | 18:44 |
| henrynash | ayoung: we;ve had that discussion. And teh concensus was it was too risky. WE are not green field any more. We have to work within the echos of our past deicsions | 18:44 |
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| ayoung | henrynash, that does not mean making useless mechanism | 18:44 |
| ayoung | s | 18:44 |
| ayoung | and nested domains are going to be just that | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | from a UX perspective to perform this will require a user to use --os-domain-name parent/project instead of --os-project-name which i feel is also weird | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | (and we should say "project acting as a domain" as little as possible to the rest of the world) | 18:44 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, that is what everything should be a URL | 18:45 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: ++ | 18:45 |
| ayoung | when I get a scoped token, I should pass in a URL | 18:45 |
| ayoung | and only that URL, I might add | 18:45 |
| stevemar | i don't see this being resolved any time soon, i am more than happy to give this a FFE after the midcycle, i'm thinking it'll be better discussed in person? | 18:45 |
| ayoung | seriaously, If I were doing this from scratch: BASIC_AUTH <userid>/passwrod GET https://url/down/to/project and dopne | 18:45 |
| henrynash | stevemar: agreed | 18:45 |
| ayoung | but..regardless...will nested domains buy us anything | 18:46 |
| ayoung | ? | 18:46 |
| henrynash | ayoung: yes, but lets defere to in-person | 18:46 |
| ayoung | can anywon besides henrynash say that it will? | 18:46 |
| henrynash | ayoung (it’s nice to be special) | 18:46 |
| ayoung | henrynash, sorry to do this to you, becuase I know you are trying to get things done | 18:46 |
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| henrynash | ayoung: but if I can’t convince more than myslef, then we shouldn’t do it | 18:47 |
| stevemar | ayoung: it's fine, i appreciate your opinion on this | 18:47 |
| dstanek | ayoung: henrynash: does this solve/hurt reseller? | 18:47 |
| henrynash | dstanek: it aids reseller big time | 18:47 |
| henrynash | dstanek: but I didn’t wnat to complicate the spec with that | 18:47 |
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| stevemar | dstanek: yeah, it would be essential for reseller | 18:47 |
| raildo | dstanek, this help a lot the reseller use case, but I think we need a couple more of work on it | 18:47 |
| raildo | but it is a huge step | 18:48 |
| dstanek | henrynash: i just asked because ayoung was asking what else it buys us | 18:48 |
| ayoung | henrynash, I think it limits reseller to one level, if I understand how things are going to be done. | 18:48 |
| ayoung | say..Verizon to momandpop | 18:48 |
| ayoung | mom and pop need to be able to create domains under momandpop. | 18:48 |
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| henrynash | ayoung: no it can be multi-level (but again, a discssio for another day) | 18:48 |
| henrynash | stevemar: next | 18:48 |
| ayoung | and ther we run into the unique naming thing/information hiding issues that were so central to Reserller years ago | 18:48 |
| stevemar | is amakarov here? | 18:48 |
| stevemar | #topci spec for RBAC support | 18:49 |
| stevemar | #topic spec for RBAC support | 18:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "spec for RBAC support (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:49 | |
| breton | he's not | 18:49 |
| stevemar | (amakarov) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/325326/ | 18:49 |
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| stevemar | i haven't reviewed it yet, the title confuses me, i thought we already have rbac support :P | 18:49 |
| ayoung | stevemar, termie suggested this back in Vancouver | 18:49 |
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| henrynash | this is basically to have non-bearer tokens... | 18:50 |
| ayoung | move policy enforcement into Keystone instead of "token validation" in Keystone, policy in middleware | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | this wont fly | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | jst fyi | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | other projects have to opt in/buy in. i am doubtful this will happen | 18:50 |
| raildo | on this spec, I like the idea to improve the oslo.policy support | 18:50 |
| henrynash | ….by having keystone give the final say on whether user has sufficient roles at the point of policy enforcement | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | not that it would be good/bad | 18:50 |
| shaleh | notmorgan: agreed. I do not see Nova going for this after the work they have put in recently. | 18:51 |
| jamielennox | from my understanding of it we need to discuss it a lot more first | 18:51 |
| dstanek | i don't see how this eliminates bearer tokens, but i've old just browsed the spec | 18:51 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, so...it could actually be done without their support | 18:51 |
| henrynash | jamielennox: ++ | 18:51 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: it doesn't | 18:51 |
| ayoung | since the call to validate a token is in Keystone middleware, it would jsut require adding more data into the call, which could, in theory, be validated later | 18:51 |
| jamielennox | i was hoping he'd be at the midcycle but i don't thinks o | 18:51 |
| henrynash | isn’t that in the pre-amble? | 18:52 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: but enforcement has to happen based on results from the data in db. | 18:52 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, it would be kindof like the suggesting that we split policy | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | because it would tie into policy ideas for reservations | 18:52 |
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| notmorgan | so, we can't enforce in middleware | 18:52 |
| notmorgan | at the moment | 18:52 |
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| ayoung | notmorgan, just hte "role" part would be in middleware | 18:52 |
| ayoung | not the the "and the proejct matches" part | 18:52 |
| henrynash | stevemar: I can’t imagine we can apprive this for Newton…given the scope of this | 18:53 |
| shaleh | henrynash: +++++ | 18:53 |
| ayoung | instead we say "assumign the proejct matches, would this be allowed" | 18:53 |
| stevemar | this is certainly a large endeavor | 18:53 |
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| dstanek | i thought a tenant of the openstack architecture was to push out the policy on purpose so that identity wasn't hit when it didn't need to be | 18:53 |
| ayoung | and then policy would do "and the proejct matches" inside the code in the API call, aftermiddleware | 18:53 |
| dstanek | henrynash: i thought i read that somewhere in the spec | 18:53 |
| topol | dstanek +++ | 18:53 |
| stevemar | henrynash: for sure not newton, but no reason we can't aim for ocata and start the work now | 18:53 |
| ayoung | dstanek, it is hit for token validation anyway | 18:53 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: current architecture does not work that way | 18:53 |
| ayoung | if you wanted to optimize, you could do this: | 18:53 |
| stevemar | i'm going to ask for reviews to look at the spec, but i honestly don't think it can make newton | 18:54 |
| ayoung | call keystone with token and proejct Id. Response comes back with a list of operations that are allowed | 18:54 |
| stevemar | we are cutting newton-2 in 7 days | 18:54 |
| stevemar | and this is moving a mountain | 18:54 |
| ayoung | it really is not | 18:54 |
| raildo | stevemar, ++ | 18:54 |
| henrynash | dstanek: line 89: The current architecture (with role assignment control and policy enforcement | 18:54 |
| henrynash | separated) forces us to use bearer tokens | 18:54 |
| gyee | so we are hitting keystone on every authz call? performance will be fun | 18:54 |
| ayoung | it might be triggering a landslide... | 18:54 |
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| stevemar | ayoung: :) | 18:54 |
| topol | tsunami! | 18:55 |
| henrynash | where’s that boat I had handy | 18:55 |
| shaleh | ayoung: there is now a tool in oslo.policy which does what you ask | 18:55 |
| stevemar | ayoung: something i'm not comfortable with in the middle of the cycle, things like this need to land *early* | 18:55 |
| stevemar | like crazy early | 18:55 |
| ayoung | stevemar, I think all it would allow is adding in a flag to allow returing a list of allowed operations for the given endpoint | 18:55 |
| ayoung | shaleh, I know. I wrote it. | 18:55 |
| shaleh | stevemar: talking about it now, preparing for O is not a bad idea though. But the spec is still a little rough. | 18:55 |
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| stevemar | shaleh: yep, also why O is a better candidate here | 18:56 |
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| stevemar | really quickly, i want to talk about henry's last spec | 18:56 |
| ayoung | stevemar, I think we should discuss at the midcycle. We might be able to do this with minimal impact. WOuld be Beta quality whenver it lands | 18:56 |
| stevemar | #topic keystone-manage migration-complete step for rolling upgrades | 18:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "keystone-manage migration-complete step for rolling upgrades (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:56 | |
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| henrynash | https://review.openstack.org/337680 | 18:56 |
| stevemar | ayoung: i'm OK with that | 18:56 |
| ayoung | henrynash, I think I was too harsh on nested domains | 18:56 |
| henrynash | ayoung: np | 18:57 |
| ayoung | I think that I was conflating two issues | 18:57 |
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| henrynash | This is really to fix bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1596500 as well as prevent the same happening with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/328447/, but given questions about our rolling upgrade support, I wrote a short spec for it. | 18:57 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1596500 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Passwords created_at attribute could remain unset during rolling upgrade" [Undecided,New] - Assigned to Henry Nash (henry-nash) | 18:57 |
| ayoung | and I think that nested domains, for reseller, while it would impose some limitations, is a legitimate way to work it | 18:57 |
| shaleh | henrynash: I like this. It sounds very reasonable. | 18:57 |
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| henrynash | dolphm: I think you had (many) concerns about rolling upgrdaes? | 18:58 |
| ayoung | henrynash, just so I have it here on the record...I am not opposed to nested domains, and support it for HMT. | 18:58 |
| henrynash | ayoung: Ok! | 18:58 |
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| dstanek | ayoung: that's a ringing endorsement if i've ever heard one | 18:59 |
| stevemar | henrynash: i am wondering how other services (nova) does this | 18:59 |
| henrynash | any other comments of https://review.openstack.org/337680? | 18:59 |
| topol | dstanek +++. Write that down | 18:59 |
| gyee | dstanek, he'll change his mind tomorrow :-) | 18:59 |
| ayoung | dstanek, I still think we messed up, and we're making henrynash the cleanup guy here. | 18:59 |
| henrynash | stevemar: so this is how they “say” they are going to do it! | 18:59 |
| topol | no. its set in stone now and we move fwd | 18:59 |
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| stevemar | henrynash: include any refs to that statement :) | 19:00 |
| henrynash | stevemar; I can’t see andy cide, however | 19:00 |
| ayoung | OK...we need a block of time to talk rolling upgrades | 19:00 |
| henrynash | any code | 19:00 |
| stevemar | henrynash: i don't want to confuse any ops with new db commands | 19:00 |
| stevemar | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| ayoung | henrynash, I think I see what you are getting at. | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 19:00:27 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-07-05-18.00.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-07-05-18.00.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-07-05-18.00.log.html | 19:00 |
| topol | ayoung, we all are in this together. we all live with the consequences | 19:00 |
| dolphm | henrynash: can we catchup on that bug tomorrow? rderose is afk today | 19:00 |
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| stevemar | thanks for attending all! | 19:00 |
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| fungi | who wants to talk about infra things? and stuff? | 19:00 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:00 |
| clarkb | me | 19:01 |
| Zara | o/ | 19:01 |
| anteaya | I am here | 19:01 |
| fungi | topics proposed by nibalizer, jhesketh, anteaya (with a request for zaro), and clarkb | 19:01 |
| SotK | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | only thingies! | 19:01 |
| AJaeger | o/ | 19:01 |
| bkero | o/ | 19:01 |
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| fungi | clarkb: i say you have a topic on the agenda, but you haven't added it (yet) | 19:01 |
| asselin__ | o/ | 19:01 |
| clarkb | fungi: I did... | 19:01 |
| jhesketh | Morning | 19:01 |
| AJaeger | fungi, it's there | 19:01 |
| nibalizer | ohai | 19:02 |
| nibalizer | i don't actually need my topic, its stale | 19:02 |
| fungi | clarkb: oh, under priority efforts | 19:02 |
| clarkb | under priority efforts since I think that was how we were going t oapproach it | 19:02 |
| rcarrillocruz | o/ | 19:02 |
| clarkb | I just need to make a mini spec once we hvae a rough plan sorted out of all the bad ideas | 19:02 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:02 |
| fungi | clarkb: fine by me | 19:02 |
| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 19:02:41 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:02 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:02 |
| fungi | #topic Announcements | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| fungi | #info Reminder: late-cycle joint Infra/QA get together to be held September 19-21 (CW38) in at SAP offices in Walldorf, DE | 19:02 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/QAInfraNewtonSprint | 19:03 |
| fungi | also, for those of you who missed last week's meeting due to travel/holiday/other, we have two new infra-core reviewers/infra-root sysadmins: rcarrillocruz (just back from holiday) and ianw (now on holiday himself, i believe) | 19:03 |
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| mordred | \o/ | 19:03 |
| pleia2 | \o/ | 19:03 |
| rcarrillocruz | \o/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | congrats! | 19:03 |
| rcarrillocruz | thx folks :-) | 19:03 |
| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-28-19.03.html | 19:03 |
| fungi | clarkb bring xenial default job transition discussion to the mailing list | 19:03 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-June/004479.html | 19:03 |
| fungi | discussion underway! | 19:04 |
| pabelanger | o/ | 19:04 |
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| fungi | that's all we had from last week's actions | 19:04 |
| jeblair | thank you for that -- i was much more able to participate in ml discussion on that last week than i would have otherwise | 19:04 |
| fungi | and there's a discussion topic proposed later in the meeting to go into detail | 19:04 |
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| fungi | #topic Specs approval | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
| fungi | #info APPROVED Update Artifact Signing details | 19:04 |
| fungi | #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/artifact-signing.html | 19:04 |
| fungi | #topic APPROVED Add wiki modernization spec | 19:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "APPROVED Add wiki modernization spec (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:05 | |
| Zara | \o/ | 19:05 |
| fungi | #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/wiki_modernization.rst | 19:05 |
| bkero | \o/ | 19:05 |
| pleia2 | ^^ which will be real the next time the specs jobs runs ;) | 19:05 |
| fungi | i just ran it moments ago, so should be there now? | 19:05 |
| pleia2 | 404 here | 19:05 |
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| bkero | 404s here too | 19:05 |
| fungi | (had to look up the trigger-job.py syntax since it was only in my history on the old zuul) | 19:05 |
| notmorgan | o/ | 19:06 |
| anteaya | I have http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/wiki_modernization.html | 19:06 |
| abregman|afk | \o | 19:06 |
| fungi | oh | 19:06 |
| fungi | #undo | 19:06 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x7f2b35c722d0> | 19:06 |
| anteaya | the .rst file 404s | 19:06 |
| fungi | #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/wiki_modernization.html | 19:06 |
| anteaya | thanks | 19:06 |
| pleia2 | aha thanks anteaya | 19:06 |
| anteaya | welcome | 19:06 |
| fungi | i formed the link incorrectly since i wrote the notes before that job ran ;) | 19:06 |
| anteaya | ah | 19:06 |
| fungi | #topic Specs approval: EXTENDED Finglonger (nibalizer) | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: EXTENDED Finglonger (nibalizer) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/310948 | 19:06 |
| fungi | looks like this needed a little more time to bake in review | 19:06 |
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| fungi | nibalizer: do you want to shoot for council voting on it this week, or does it need more work still? | 19:07 |
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| fungi | i'm guessing we have no nibalizer | 19:07 |
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| fungi | it can be reproposed for voting when he's ready to bring it back up | 19:08 |
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| nibalizer | no im here | 19:08 |
| fungi | ahh, cool! | 19:08 |
| nibalizer | but yea we're having conversation in the spec | 19:08 |
| nibalizer | so lets just shelve this until we're ready to bring it back to the council | 19:08 |
| fungi | we can put it back to proposed for next week if you want, sure | 19:08 |
| fungi | i'll pull it from the agenda in the interim | 19:09 |
| nibalizer | thanks clarkb rcarrillocruz ianw_pto an jhesketh for feedback | 19:09 |
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| nibalizer | yes pull it, i can add it back when it is time | 19:09 |
| rcarrillocruz | ++ | 19:09 |
| fungi | #topic (Proposed) Priority Effort: Newton on Xenial (clarkb) | 19:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "(Proposed) Priority Effort: Newton on Xenial (clarkb) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:10 | |
| fungi | on the agenda you wrote: "Need to decide on Gearman strategy then we can work up a small spec." | 19:10 |
| clarkb | ya so I sent mail to the infra list with a few options | 19:11 |
| clarkb | the two basic ideas are go with what we did last time which no one seems to like much. Make every test job in JJB have a specific node type then zuul can run different tests for old and new branches | 19:11 |
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| clarkb | if we don't change zuul at all then the first option will result in ~1.5X the number of jobs we have right now. The second will result in ~2X | 19:12 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-June/004479.html | 19:12 |
| clarkb | if we use https://review.openstack.org/#/c/336311/ then we can keep the job registrations roughly equivalent to what we hvae now | 19:12 |
| fungi | (same thread linked in the action items topic earlier) | 19:12 |
| anteaya | thanks | 19:12 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/336311 | 19:12 |
| clarkb | Considering previous feedback I think we should go with the explicit job per image type with change 336311 in use with zuul | 19:13 |
| clarkb | if there isn't strong opposition I will throw that into a spec this afternoon so we can make it official like. Also open to other ideas that people like more | 19:13 |
| jeblair | i don't know what our current job registration max is -- i think/hope the mass_do change made things better there -- but i'd rather not find out this way, so i like 336311. | 19:13 |
| fungi | i haven't reviewed the diff, but the suggestion in the commit message is at least very compelling | 19:14 |
| clarkb | jeblair: we have also cleaned out about 1300ish unused jobs | 19:14 |
| clarkb | which should help keep us in a more reasonable place | 19:14 |
| jeblair | nice! | 19:14 |
| fungi | by gettign a little more judicious about what jobs are included in some of the more common job-groups | 19:15 |
| clarkb | yes thank you AJaeger for pushing on that | 19:15 |
| jhesketh | +1 | 19:15 |
| AJaeger | keep in mind that python-jobs has fewer jobs now... | 19:16 |
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| clarkb | anyways I don't hear dissent or more better ideas so will go with explicit image type jobs and the zuul change as th eplan | 19:17 |
| fungi | #agreed Newton on Xenial spec will propose distro-specific job names with zuul-launcher improvement to make node labels optional in registrations | 19:17 |
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| fungi | that look right? | 19:17 |
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| anteaya | it does to me | 19:17 |
| clarkb | lftm | 19:18 |
| clarkb | *lgtm | 19:18 |
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| * fungi read that as "looks fine to me" ;) | 19:18 | |
| anteaya | I thought you were going with 'looks fine to me' | 19:18 |
| fungi | #topic Barcelona summit talk submissions (jhesketh) | 19:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Barcelona summit talk submissions (jhesketh) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:18 | |
| anteaya | and I was thinking clarkb you trendsetter you | 19:18 |
| jhesketh | This was just a reminder the deadline is coming up if anybody wants to work on a proposal | 19:18 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-June/004416.html | 19:18 |
| rcarrillocruz | yep, thx for reminding | 19:18 |
| jhesketh | Possibly the easiest way is to start a new etherpad and share on the list | 19:19 |
| pleia2 | jhesketh: newer than this? https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/barcelona-upstream-openstack-infa | 19:19 |
| pabelanger | i think we can use the same etherpad, just reorg it better | 19:19 |
| pleia2 | I think we're doing ok with this one from pabelanger's initial email | 19:19 |
| pleia2 | pabelanger: yeah | 19:19 |
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| pabelanger | that's what we did last time around | 19:19 |
| pabelanger | worked well I think | 19:19 |
| pleia2 | did anyone reach out to thingee to see if lightning talks are a thing this time around? | 19:20 |
| fungi | mtreinish and i are putting in one to the upstream dev track for the "firehose" spec (whereby i actually mean mtreinish has done all the work so far and i've been slacking, so i need to put something together on my end asap) | 19:20 |
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| mtreinish | fungi: heh | 19:20 |
| pleia2 | fungi: great | 19:20 |
| thingee | pleia2: yes, session is in | 19:20 |
| pabelanger | I'm interested to get some feedback from crinkle, rcarrillocruz on infracloud. See if there is interest to do a talk on that | 19:20 |
| jhesketh | Sure I didn't realise the intention was to put abstracts in there but that works (rather than talk ideas) | 19:20 |
| mtreinish | fungi: to be fair everything I've done has been incomplete too :) | 19:20 |
| rcarrillocruz | pabelanger: yup, just wrote it down my insterest | 19:20 |
| pleia2 | thingee: cool, how should we submit proposals for that? | 19:20 |
| thingee | pleia2: I should send that email. was distracted with leadership training then fourth of july stuffs | 19:20 |
| fungi | mtreinish: story of my life | 19:20 |
| pleia2 | thingee: yes, thank you :) | 19:21 |
| rcarrillocruz | i'm cool working with you crinkle and whoever on writing it down | 19:21 |
| * thingee makes to do item now | 19:21 | |
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| pabelanger | rcarrillocruz: sure | 19:21 |
| fungi | okay, so was this a good sync-up/redirect to the thread and etherpad, or do we need to go deeper in th emeeting? | 19:22 |
| fungi | jhesketh: ^ ? | 19:22 |
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| pabelanger | I'm happy to work on it this week | 19:22 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/barcelona-upstream-openstack-infa | 19:22 |
| jhesketh | fungi: I think let's work on it in the pad and on the list | 19:23 |
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| fungi | jhesketh: great--thanks for bringing it up! | 19:23 |
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| pleia2 | pabelanger: I'll come up with a title for the infra beginners talk and we can collaborate on that over the next few days | 19:23 |
| fungi | #topic What is the current status of the gerrit its-storyboard plugin? (anteaya) | 19:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "What is the current status of the gerrit its-storyboard plugin? (anteaya) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:23 | |
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| anteaya | fungi: well zaro isn't here that I can see | 19:24 |
| anteaya | so perhaps we can skip to the next item? | 19:24 |
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| fungi | well, one thing i can tell you is that puppet probably accidentally reverted his alterations on review-dev again back on june 30 because of a bug we have where groups weren't getting expanded | 19:24 |
| anteaya | fungi: I saw that yeah, I'll remind him to reconfigure when he returns | 19:25 |
| anteaya | he might still be on holiday | 19:25 |
| fungi | i added mordred's recommended workaround yesterday (adding everything from the disabled group in git to our emergency file for now) | 19:25 |
| anteaya | oh nice | 19:25 |
| fungi | but mordred is working on a more properish solution | 19:25 |
| Zara | I think https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330925/ is safe to be un-WIP'd, btw | 19:25 |
| pabelanger | pleia2: thanks | 19:25 |
| anteaya | wonderful | 19:25 |
| Zara | I'm on holiday for the next few days but I've merged the patch that was waiting for | 19:25 |
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| Zara | so if anyone needs to pass that on... there you go :) | 19:26 |
| anteaya | Zara: thanks for that update, I'll share that with zaro upon his return | 19:26 |
| mordred | fungi: yah. I will write that up soonish | 19:26 |
| anteaya | thank you, will pass it along | 19:26 |
| fungi | i guess we can just move on to the other sb topic you've proposed? | 19:26 |
| anteaya | sure | 19:26 |
| fungi | #topic StoryBoard comments, editing/deleting allowed or no? (anteaya) | 19:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "StoryBoard comments, editing/deleting allowed or no? (anteaya) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:26 | |
| fungi | #link http://docs.openstack.org/infra/storyboard/webapi/v1.html#put--v1-stories--story_id--comments currently the StoryBoard api allows for editing and deleting comments | 19:26 |
| anteaya | so the api allows one to edit or delete a comment | 19:26 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/333418 | 19:26 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/332208 | 19:27 |
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| anteaya | the description says update for both, but the second one is the delete action | 19:27 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/333409 | 19:27 |
| anteaya | I wanted to hear folks opinion on this | 19:27 |
| anteaya | personally I'm not a fan of being able to edit or delete a comment | 19:27 |
| anteaya | create yes, not other actions | 19:27 |
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| anteaya | anyone else care to share their thoughts? | 19:27 |
| mordred | we do not allow deleting comments in gerrit | 19:27 |
| SotK | I don't think we should allow deletion | 19:28 |
| mordred | I am in general agreement that for us deleting things like that is bad | 19:28 |
| jeblair | i agree. if anything, it should be admin only. | 19:28 |
| fungi | i'd like it to at least be configurable so that we can disable that behavior (except maybe for admins) | 19:28 |
| mordred | although I could certainly see other sb users having a different point of view on that | 19:28 |
| Zara | I think editing comments was originally requested on the nova bugs team etherpad | 19:28 |
| bkero | It would be confusing to post something to StoryBoard then delete it, only to have it replicated to Gerrit. | 19:28 |
| mordred | yah - what fungi said | 19:28 |
| reed | admin only, yes | 19:28 |
| SotK | Zara: indeed | 19:28 |
| reed | sometimes you just need to delete stuff | 19:28 |
| pabelanger | have we ever had to delete with spam or disrespectful comments? | 19:28 |
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| SotK | is there any intention to duplicate StoryBoard comments to Gerrit? | 19:29 |
| fungi | my concern is that altering comments (the historical record) bifurcates discussion between those who have previously read them and those who are reading them for the first time | 19:29 |
| * SotK doesn't think that would be hugely useful | 19:29 | |
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| mordred | fungi: ++ | 19:29 |
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| anteaya | SotK: we don't do that with launchpad | 19:29 |
| mordred | SotK: not to my knowledge, no - I was mostly mentioning as a point of "we have a ton of comments over there and don't allow deletion" | 19:29 |
| pabelanger | okay, now I understand | 19:29 |
| Zara | the suggested implementation allows comment history to be retrieved | 19:29 |
| fungi | i don't think we need sb to echo gerrit comments or vice versa | 19:30 |
| anteaya | Zara: if you know to retrive it | 19:30 |
| * SotK should've mentioned bkero in that | 19:30 | |
| anteaya | Zara: I think not knowing where to look would again lead to the bifurcation fungi mentions | 19:30 |
| mordred | I'm fine with editing if the old version remains (so that edit doesn't become "you delete it by replacing the comment with an empty string") | 19:30 |
| bkero | SotK: I didn't know if that was a desired feature or not. I could see it being, so I thought I would comment. | 19:30 |
| fungi | well, more "not knowing to look" | 19:30 |
| anteaya | fungi: fair | 19:30 |
| SotK | anteaya: the WIP UI patch I sent allows anyone to see the full history of an edited comment | 19:30 |
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| Zara | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/333418/ | 19:31 |
| anteaya | SotK: I think as fungi said that at the very least it should be configurable to have that as the default, or disable the editing features | 19:31 |
| SotK | and we now keep history of any comments that are edited via the API, which is better than it was a couple of weeks back | 19:31 |
| reed | fungi, author's remorse, spam, legal requests all are good reasons to allow deletion | 19:31 |
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| anteaya | well if an admin needs to delete spam comments I would hope the history can be cleared too | 19:32 |
| bkero | reed: there are non-regular-user ways of handling those in extreme cases | 19:32 |
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| anteaya | otherwise we are in the same problem with the wiki spam continually picked up by search engines even after it is deleted | 19:32 |
| fungi | reed: yes, though it's currently by request on lp, so i don't see lack of general deletion support for users as something which would block our adopting storyboard | 19:32 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:32 |
| reed | ++ | 19:32 |
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| pleia2 | yeah, we do still have access to the database, after all | 19:33 |
| SotK | by request seems like the most sensible way to do deletion, if it is done at all | 19:33 |
| fungi | and the goal at this phase is to only identify things which prevent us from moving projects to storyboard, not poll them for ideas on how to make storyboard superior to what they're currently using | 19:33 |
| anteaya | right now I am leaning admin only on edit and delete on comments and if so then I don't think having a history is helping | 19:34 |
| SotK | it will be trivial for a DB admin to delete the history of a comment incidentally, and easy to write a patch to make the API do it if that is the intended behaviour | 19:34 |
| anteaya | unless all the history says is "deleted by admin" | 19:34 |
| pleia2 | SotK: yeah, that's what I gathered from looking at the schema | 19:34 |
| fungi | yeah, i'm not particularly concerned about occasional deletion requests being handled with a mysql query. we already do that for, e.g., paste.o.o | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | yes, in my experience, the main reason to allow deletion for admins in a case like this is for legal reasons. and in that case, we would not want to make history available. | 19:35 |
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| Zara | as a user, I like being able to edit things. | 19:35 |
| SotK | Zara: +1 | 19:36 |
| bkero | As a user I like being able to see that a message was edited though, especially if I am reviewing a thread | 19:36 |
| anteaya | as a consumer of a long standing comment stream, I like to have an accurate history | 19:36 |
| bkero | Not that I need to see the content of that history. Just edited=1 | 19:36 |
| rcarrillocruz | that is a good compromise ^ | 19:36 |
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| mordred | I think it's important to continue our policy that once it's public, it's public, and there are no take-backs | 19:36 |
| bkero | Otherwise I will review an old thread and might think I've gone crazy from mis-remembering because someone altered history silently | 19:36 |
| anteaya | mordred: +! | 19:36 |
| mordred | because that is true whether you think it is or not | 19:36 |
| anteaya | and +1 | 19:36 |
| fungi | though if you're following stories via e-mail update, you would need some indication that had happened (especially in a particularly long story) | 19:36 |
| jeblair | does anyone think editing is important? | 19:37 |
| rcarrillocruz | i believe editing should be a thing, thinking of a user accidentally putting creds or something when pasting errors, logs, etc | 19:37 |
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| anteaya | jeblair: I do not | 19:37 |
| SotK | this is the WIP UI btw: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/18/333418/3/check/gate-storyboard-webclient-js-draft/808fe8a//dist/ | 19:37 |
| fungi | i do not. the arguments i've seen so far are "it makes some users feel good that they can correct their typos" and "people who use popular web forums are used to being able to edit comments: | 19:37 |
| mordred | rcarrillocruz: we have actually explicitly refused to delete such mistakes in the past | 19:37 |
| jeblair | rcarrillocruz: that's the thing -- it's a false sense of security there. people will have already received those in email. | 19:37 |
| anteaya | rcarrillocruz: well it is the same situation if you do that in gerrit or launchpad or paste or etherpad now | 19:38 |
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| mordred | yah | 19:38 |
| mordred | what jeblair said | 19:38 |
| Zara | this is a story that has been edited via the wip if anyone wants an example: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/18/333418/3/check/gate-storyboard-webclient-js-draft/808fe8a//dist/#!/story/24 | 19:38 |
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| bkero | I think that editing is an important feature for admins to have, but I generally like the idea that discussion pieces are immutable | 19:38 |
| bkero | s/editing/removal/ | 19:38 |
| jeblair | as an admin, i don't want editing. i want, at most, deleting | 19:38 |
| jeblair | (and i'm okay if the way to do that is a database) | 19:38 |
| anteaya | bkero: well as has been pointed out admins have access to the db | 19:38 |
| clarkb | jeblair: as long as its a simple db edit | 19:39 |
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| fungi | and the schema is cleanly designed to make it safe and easy to delete a comment | 19:39 |
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| bkero | So we're only discussing the ability for a user to edit posts then | 19:39 |
| jeblair | but i don't think user self-editing should be a thing -- it doesn't do what people will think it does, and it encourages confusion in messages | 19:39 |
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| anteaya | bkero: I'm dicussing the api | 19:39 |
| anteaya | bkero: right now the api allows any registered user to edit and delete comments | 19:39 |
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| bkero | okay | 19:40 |
| anteaya | bkero: thanks for clarifying | 19:40 |
| bkero | So is the proposal a toggle to remove 'UD' from the API's CRUD? | 19:40 |
| rcarrillocruz | if notifications by email send the whole comment, then yeah, mistake has already shipped | 19:40 |
| anteaya | bkero: well I hadn't gotten as far as proposing, mostly I wanted to hear others opinions and I'm glad folks are offering them | 19:41 |
| anteaya | rcarrillocruz: right | 19:41 |
| bkero | anteaya: I hope you can interpret them into something useful :) | 19:41 |
| * SotK still thinks we should talk to markus_z about this, given he was the one who initially expressed a desire for this :) | 19:41 | |
| Zara | agreed. | 19:42 |
| rcarrillocruz | so i see your point jeblair | 19:42 |
| anteaya | well I'm hoping fungi comes up with something by meeting's end | 19:42 |
| anteaya | bkero: but he is patient to his credit, and conversation is still underway | 19:42 |
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| anteaya | SotK: I think gathering infra opinons at this point is useful, as infra has to maintain it as well as already has policy in place with other tools | 19:43 |
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| anteaya | no sense offering a project an option that goes against what already exists as infra policy | 19:43 |
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| fungi | yes, so markus_z was proposing this as something that would prevent moving nova off lp? (given that lp lacks this feature too) | 19:44 |
| Zara | I don't think so; this was some time ago | 19:44 |
| anteaya | fungi: noone knows, this was an artifact in an etherpad | 19:44 |
| fungi | okay | 19:44 |
| anteaya | he was away then I was away | 19:44 |
| Zara | it was more a list of features that a preferred task-tracker would have. | 19:45 |
| anteaya | so I haven't talked to him about it yet | 19:45 |
| SotK | there were IRC logs too, I'll see if I can find them | 19:45 |
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| fungi | moving storyboard migration along is very important, and we have no other topics proposed this week, so as far as i'm concerned we can take the remaining 15 minutes to continue discussing this if needed | 19:46 |
| anteaya | fungi: thanks | 19:46 |
| anteaya | Zara: have you a link to the etherpad? | 19:46 |
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| Zara | but I'd take it as more representative of a viewpoint of various potential users, and I don't know how big that group is yet | 19:47 |
| anteaya | umm, I'm hesitating to go that far | 19:47 |
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| anteaya | it could just be one person and end up as a note in an etherpad | 19:47 |
| SotK | etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-bugs-team | 19:47 |
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| anteaya | line 119 | 19:48 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-bugs-team | 19:48 |
| Zara | :) well we know it's at least 3 of us. so I'd want to be clear on the reasons behind policy, if it goes that way | 19:48 |
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| anteaya | by the same token I'm not a fan of rating comments either | 19:49 |
| SotK | iirc the list came from the nova bugs team's discussions about desired features in a task tracker | 19:49 |
| * SotK isn't a fan of that either | 19:49 | |
| anteaya | a comment is a comment, if folks want to disagree with me, say so in a comment | 19:49 |
| fungi | yeah, so the definition of "requirement" there must differ from what i think is commonly accepted as its meaning | 19:49 |
| anteaya | okay so this is useful, thank you | 19:49 |
| fungi | it looks like a feature wishlist | 19:49 |
| SotK | line 127 is markus_z's order of priorities for it | 19:49 |
| ttx | fungi: yeah | 19:49 |
| anteaya | well wishlist is nice | 19:50 |
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| anteaya | and it is great markus took the time to offer some feedback and put some thought into it | 19:50 |
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| fungi | what we need is for markus_z to put together a list of missing features in sb that need to be implemented to avoid a regression for his (and nova's in general) use of lp bug tracking | 19:50 |
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| anteaya | my question once the api docs all have examples is, if we move to storyboard tomorrow would you be able to get work done | 19:51 |
| anteaya | and I'll be paying attention to anyone who says they can't get their work done on storyboard as it is right now and find out what more they need | 19:51 |
| fungi | while i appreciate the ideas and suggestions about what else a task tracker _could_ do, at this phase we need to focus on what it _must_ do for us to switch to it and not muddy that discussion with arbitrary wishlist items | 19:51 |
| Zara | yeah, that etherpad was created before the last summit. it wasn't intended as a list of storyboard requirements | 19:51 |
| anteaya | fungi: yeah, thank you | 19:51 |
| anteaya | okay great | 19:52 |
| anteaya | given that | 19:52 |
| SotK | http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-infra/%23openstack-infra.2016-03-02.log.html#t2016-03-02T11:38:09 is the IRC discussion from around that list | 19:52 |
| anteaya | can we come to agreement on how to address the current api comment features? | 19:52 |
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| fungi | we have devs willing to help implement what we'll absolutely need in sb, and i really don't want to end up with conflicting directives from our end making it harder for them | 19:52 |
| anteaya | I am in the disable edit and delete and see how far we get with db queries by admins when requested to do so | 19:52 |
| fungi | yes, so i think from the "can openstack use sb now?" perspective, being _able_ to edit/delete comments beyond admin database queries is not relevant for us | 19:53 |
| fungi | and if sb is going to expose that ability for some deployments, we would very much like to be able to disable it in our deployment | 19:54 |
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| fungi | which of course means disabling that part of the api since the web interface is just an api client | 19:55 |
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| anteaya | I agree with that assessment | 19:55 |
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| * SotK will send a patch to that effect soon-ish then | 19:56 | |
| fungi | anyone here disagree with that position? | 19:56 |
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| rcarrillocruz | that sounds reasonable to me | 19:56 |
| fungi | it's just my opinion, though i feel like it reflects the opinions of others on the team who have opinions on it | 19:56 |
| jeblair | fungi: i agree with that position | 19:56 |
| ttx | agreed | 19:56 |
| fungi | #agreed OpenStack should not need the ability for task tracker users to edit and delete comments, but would like the ability to disable that if it becomes a feature | 19:57 |
| anteaya | thank you | 19:57 |
| fungi | #topic Open discussion | 19:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:57 | |
| anteaya | thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion | 19:57 |
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| fungi | we have two minutes and change | 19:57 |
| anteaya | anyone know the status of ipsilon? | 19:57 |
| anteaya | storyboard migration depends on it being in place | 19:58 |
| anteaya | is anyone working on it? | 19:58 |
| fungi | smarcet should be back from his honeymoon now, so we wanted to pick that topic back up | 19:58 |
| pabelanger | any changes to our mid-cycle? | 19:58 |
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| pabelanger | seems pretty quiet | 19:58 |
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| fungi | pabelanger: what sort of changes are you anticipating? | 19:59 |
| rcarrillocruz | i don't think dates will change | 19:59 |
| notmorgan | delete/edit comments shouldnt be allowed IMHO. | 19:59 |
| rcarrillocruz | agenda there was an etherpad from nibalizer iirc | 19:59 |
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| notmorgan | sorry was a bit late there. | 19:59 |
| anteaya | notmorgan: thanks for reading the backscroll | 19:59 |
| pabelanger | fungi: nothing, wanted to see if zuulv3 and infracloud were the topics of choice | 19:59 |
| fungi | okay, we're out of time. thanks everyone! | 20:00 |
| anteaya | thank you | 20:00 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| notmorgan | (so was just agreeing with fungi's view) | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 20:00:08 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-05-19.02.html | 20:00 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-05-19.02.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-05-19.02.log.html | 20:00 |
| fungi | all yours, tc! | 20:00 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 20:00 |
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| abregman|afk | o/ | 20:00 |
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| * fungi had to make sure he typed "all" and not "up" | 20:00 | |
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| ttx | how many do we have | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | ttx: russellb will join us when he gets to 10k feet | 20:00 |
| annegentle | o/ here | 20:00 |
| dims | o/ | 20:00 |
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| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 20:00 |
| * edleafe- hides behind annegentle | 20:00 | |
| * jroll pokes his head in | 20:01 | |
| dims | fungi : LOL | 20:01 |
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| ttx | mtreinish, mordred, sdague: around ? | 20:01 |
| * annegentle jumps up | 20:01 | |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 5 20:01:31 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| annegentle | hey jroll | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
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| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:01 |
| edleafe- | damn you annegentle! | 20:01 |
| ttx | jroll: o/ | 20:01 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:01 |
| mtreinish | o/ | 20:01 |
| amrith | \./ | 20:01 |
| ttx | Hi everyone... Short agenda for today, should be plenty of time for open discussion at the end | 20:01 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:01 |
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| dims | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
| ttx | #topic Add project Bilean to OpenStack big-tent | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add project Bilean to OpenStack big-tent (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/334350 | 20:02 |
| ttx | So... Bilean implements trigger-type billing, which is reactive to events rather than usage | 20:02 |
| ttx | This is pretty close to the CloudKitty/Ceilometer/Gnocchi combination in scope, but different | 20:02 |
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| ttx | That is in itself fine, it may well be different enough to justify a separate project | 20:02 |
| ttx | But the path of developing the missing features in existing projects should be explored first | 20:02 |
| ttx | Since otherwise we may end up with separate projects both dying of not reaching critical mass (instead of one successful project) | 20:03 |
| ttx | sheeprine (CloudKitty PTL) opened a thread to discuss that on the ML | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | yeah | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-July/098640.html | 20:03 |
| annegentle | yeah | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | I've put my thoughts on the review | 20:03 |
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| ttx | no answer yet | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | and I still think it makes sense to wait before adding Bilean | 20:03 |
| ttx | (and I really think that should have happened before this was ever presented to us) | 20:03 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:03 |
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| ttx | Also, quick glance at Bilean shows that most changes are massive and self-approved | 20:04 |
| dhellmann | it looks like this repo was imported from a bunch of existing code? | 20:04 |
| dims | they had one meeting (http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/bilean/2016/) - 2 emails to openstack-dev. that's it | 20:04 |
| ttx | So even ignoring the scope issue I'm not convinced we would approve it as it stands | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: yup, that's my understanding | 20:04 |
| russellb_ | Seems premature | 20:04 |
| russellb_ | (Here via mobile until take off) | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | russellb_: safe travels | 20:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, seems premature right now to add it, regardless | 20:05 |
| ttx | OK, I'll draft careful rejection pointing at the started thread, the Project Team Guide and the need for more core reviewers | 20:05 |
| dims | one person committing code - http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/bilean/log/ (mostly) | 20:05 |
| ttx | dims: same person +2/W+1 ing too | 20:05 |
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| flaper87 | is this perhaps one of those cases where the contributor thinks being in the big tent is a requirement ? | 20:05 |
| russellb_ | Thanks ttx | 20:05 |
| flaper87 | I honestly didn't dive much into the list of contributors | 20:05 |
| dims | flaper87 : yea, possibly | 20:05 |
| ttx | flaper87: I don't think so. Looks more like a case of an internal development that they thought they would propose to us | 20:06 |
| flaper87 | sure but given the state of the project, it feels like the former | 20:06 |
| dims | ttx : ah | 20:06 |
| ttx | I'm not convinced they are interested in converging with CK. They have something and use it the way it stands | 20:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | in many ways, the process worked, they proposed it, and we have told them who they should talk to first | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | good point, johnthetubaguy | 20:06 |
| ttx | But we'll see where the discussion goes. Could be good news and additional contributors to CK | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | anway, without THE contributor around (I don't know his/her IRC nick) it'll be a bit hard to clarify these things | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | there's some evidence that the company here has worked with other teams already | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | http://stackalytics.com/?user_id=&project_type=all&release=all&metric=marks&company=Kylin%20Cloud&module=bilean | 20:07 |
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| dhellmann | oops, try http://stackalytics.com/?project_type=all&release=all&metric=marks&company=Kylin%20Cloud | 20:07 |
| dims | flaper87 : 3 people nicks are listed in meeting - http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/bilean/2016/bilean.2016-06-23-14.00.html | 20:08 |
| russellb_ | I just want to encourage collaboration wherever we can. I haven't taken a close look yet. The lack of discussion or analysis was enough for me to start with. | 20:08 |
| amrith | flaper87, his irc name is lvdongbing, I think. | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : looks like a chinese company, so this may be a bad time for synchronous discussion | 20:08 |
| ttx | OK, I think we can move on, I'll write up something on the review. If you have other points you can file them there | 20:08 |
| annegentle | okay. | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | russellb_ : ++ | 20:08 |
| dims | ++ ttx | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | let's move on and I'd love to see more collaboration too | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | amrith: thanks | 20:08 |
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| russellb_ | Cheers. | 20:08 |
| ttx | #topic Exclude inactive core reviewers from core metrics | 20:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Exclude inactive core reviewers from core metrics (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:08 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/332751 | 20:09 |
| *** dimtruck is now known as zz_dimtruck | 20:09 | |
| ttx | This proposes that we ignore *inactive* core reviewers from the 'core reviewers %' and 'core reviews %' metrics used in diversity tags | 20:09 |
| russellb_ | +1 to the idea of this. | 20:09 |
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| ttx | My initial reaction to this one was that the "core reviews %" metric already takes activity into account, so I didn't think we'd capture additional issues using this adjustment | 20:09 |
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| ttx | But then I agree that inactive core reviewers should just be considered as leftover entries rather than real core reviewers | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | while this doesn't actually encourage folks to clean up their core teams, it closes a whole where we were rewarding them for not doing so | 20:09 |
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| dhellmann | *hole | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | yeah | 20:09 |
| dims | dhellmann : right | 20:09 |
| ttx | I'm not sure the '30' threshold is the best one to capture that, but we can nitpick that in the tools by looking at the effect of the change | 20:10 |
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| dhellmann | yes, I think we should definitely have that separate discussion | 20:10 |
| ttx | So I agree that we can add the word 'active' to the tag definition, and then adjust the tools. | 20:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I like how its nice and explicit, and simple | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | Also, note the goal of this patch is not to discuss what active/inactive is. It also doesn't define what the right threshold should be. I'm working on a follow-up patch for that | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | we should stick to the current definition and threshold | 20:10 |
| annegentle | flaper87: and I added (just now) a request to put the definition of "active" in the text itsefl | 20:10 |
| annegentle | itself | 20:10 |
| annegentle | flaper87: ah ok. | 20:10 |
| mtreinish | I understand the motivation here, but it seems kinda arbitrary to me without the second part flaper87 just mentioned | 20:11 |
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| mtreinish | I think we should have the definition first before applying it to things | 20:11 |
| annegentle | flaper87: so you don't mind updating the patch after discussing here? So the text and code are synched? | 20:11 |
| dims | ++ mtreinish | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | mtreinish: fwiw, we already do this for the diverse-affiliation tag. We're adopting it in the single-vendor one | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : yeah, we use it elsewhere in the repo both in text and code, but I agree we should move the definition to text somewhere and have the tool refer to that (as ttx said) | 20:11 |
| russellb_ | Doesn't one of the tools already check this? | 20:11 |
| ttx | flaper87: I'm good with how it stands right now | 20:11 |
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| russellb_ | And we just didn't document it? | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: there was one and I just removed it | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | mtreinish : we do have a definition already, it's just documented as code | 20:11 |
| ttx | russellb_: no, we only used the threshold for "reviewers" | 20:12 |
| fungi | so this is at least 6 commits merged and at least 30 reviews posted in a 6-month period? | 20:12 |
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| russellb_ | Ah ok | 20:12 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: is it, flaper87 just said we're not defining 'active' in the code patch. That it'll be a follow up change | 20:12 |
| amrith | to ttx's point here though, I'm not certain what this change would actually accomplish. If a core reviewer is not active (i.e. not a lot of reviews) then the other metric (core reviews by company) would trip. So, what really is the change? So I tried to run flavio's code and noticed nothing really changed in terms of tags. So, is it worth it? Should we figure out what metrics we want to measure first and then decide | 20:12 |
| amrith | the metrics? | 20:12 |
| flaper87 | fungi: it currently just uses the reviews number | 20:12 |
| mtreinish | the 30 in there feels kinda random to me, and just a starting point | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | mtreinish : we're going to propose moving that definition to prose and possibly changing the value | 20:12 |
| flaper87 | amrith: it does change if you print the values of the metric | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | bah, this is exactly what we were trying to avoid | 20:12 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: and I'm saying that should come first | 20:12 |
| flaper87 | several projects get close to the threshold | 20:13 |
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| dhellmann | we have 2 things to do: fix this tag and fix the active definition. they're orthogonal. let's focus on this patch. | 20:13 |
| ttx | mtreinish: why ? I'm fine giving us some flexibility there | 20:13 |
| ttx | for example, 30 might be too large for smallish projects | 20:13 |
| ttx | but 2 too small for largish projects | 20:13 |
| notmorgan | mtreinish: i am -1 unless we have a clear definition at least proposed on what is active | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | mordred proposed looking at standard deviations, too | 20:13 |
| notmorgan | i'm also ok with a "scaling" 'active' standard | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | notmorgan : the existing script is the definition of active. | 20:14 |
| notmorgan | but we need some level of metric (or range?) | 20:14 |
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| notmorgan | dhellmann: that is not sufficient imo, it needs to be in the text. | 20:14 |
| notmorgan | not digging into python code | 20:14 |
| ttx | notmorgan: why ? | 20:14 |
| notmorgan | it should be clearly published in the same place we define activity is required | 20:14 |
| flaper87 | whether it is in text or not, I don't think we should block this patch on that. | 20:14 |
| notmorgan | not "oh go find it here in the python ->>>>" | 20:15 |
| jroll | presumably, not everyone reading tag definitions can read python | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | or wherver, or at least *linked* to the place in the code | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | jroll: ++ | 20:15 |
| ttx | notmorgan: we could let it be slightly subjective | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | we are going to do both | 20:15 |
| flaper87 | I've some text written (Actual text) to define this but I was not happy with the wording so I decided not to publish it yet | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | we are trying to close a loophole first | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | ttx: i'm fine with it being subjective, but define "active" | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | not say "active is needed" without definition | 20:15 |
| ttx | notmorgan: "not dead" ? | 20:15 |
| mtreinish | notmorgan: ++ | 20:15 |
| dims | ttx : dhellmann : which repo? (python code) | 20:16 |
| flaper87 | dims: governance: teamstats.py | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | dims : the script in the governance repo that is used to apply this tag to projects | 20:16 |
| ttx | notmorgan, mtreinish: (I don't really disagree with you, playing devil's advocate to get to the bottom of your objection) | 20:16 |
| notmorgan | a minimal definition of "what is active" | 20:16 |
| ttx | I also think we can do it in two steps | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | even if ti claims it is subjective | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | that is fine | 20:17 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: FWIW, I don't think it's not defined. The way I see it is that we need to make the definition more explicit (the follow-up patch). But that won't change the fact that we should be excluding inactive core reviewers. We've a definition that we're using already and this proposes sticking to that definition until the next discussion happens | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | just be clear what the current definition is before we add it | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | also, a followup patch is fine. | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | just have it proposed. | 20:17 |
| ttx | notmorgan: we use the wording "active reviewer" in the other tag definition, without defining it. That just proposes to make the "core reviewers" side of the equation catch up | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | i'm -1 code review, but wont -1 Rollcall | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | i also wont +1 either way. | 20:17 |
| ttx | then we can refine | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | just my view. | 20:17 |
| annegentle | flaper87: what's interesting then is the definition of core reviewer, right? each project will have a different set of criteria / activity and some may have written those down. then what? | 20:17 |
| mtreinish | notmorgan: I did the same | 20:17 |
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| ttx | could be done the other way around though, I agree | 20:18 |
| notmorgan | so, feel free to override me, i'll support. my -1 is a voice of i dislike this change w/o some level of definition | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : we don't usually get into that in terms of stats. We look at members of the team with +2 rights. | 20:18 |
| notmorgan | since we're leaning on it. but i'm also not wanting to block this. | 20:18 |
| annegentle | flaper87: do we encode what projects have already written down as "here's how you get to core?" | 20:18 |
| notmorgan | if that makes sense. | 20:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | annegentle: its always someone who can +2 though, which I think is OK | 20:18 |
| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: yeah, that definition is true any given query | 20:18 |
| notmorgan | it's "good", just should have a minimal level of refinement so if we lean on this at all before we change the definition we have something to point at | 20:19 |
| ttx | annegentle: that's subjective rather than quantitative | 20:19 |
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| notmorgan | thats all. | 20:19 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: this metric and definition is for use in the governance repo. I don't think we should get into the business of defining what active/core means for project teams | 20:19 |
| annegentle | flaper87: but some teams already do... I think. I may be wrong. | 20:19 |
| annegentle | flaper87: I looked into this for docs. Lana then wrote down a definition. | 20:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | annegentle: all I mean is, projects define who they trust to have +2, and thats fine, largely | 20:19 |
| ttx | flaper87: looks like you won't get enough votes to do it in two steps | 20:19 |
| notmorgan | even just linking to a previous definition of active (fwiw, it should be central) | 20:19 |
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| notmorgan | is fine | 20:19 |
| notmorgan | not "every doc re-defines" active | 20:20 |
| mtreinish | flaper87: yeah I agree, we just should make that point clear. This is for governane purposes and project teams still define who has +2 etc... | 20:20 |
| flaper87 | I could publish my draft for the second patch now, I've it written down but I don't see why having the second patch up will change some of the votes | 20:20 |
| ttx | Hrm. this is not about defining core reviewers anyway | 20:20 |
| dims | i am ok with 2 step tango | 20:20 |
| fungi | it might make more sense to avoid using the term "active" in the prose in that case, and just indicate what is actually being measured objectively rather than using a subjective term for it | 20:21 |
| notmorgan | fungi: that would work for me too. | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | fungi : that's like using a constant instead of a variable. if we end up changing the definition of active, we have to go change it here, too. | 20:21 |
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| dims | fungi : I like it | 20:21 |
| annegentle | ttx: hm, true... it's about a metric | 20:21 |
| fungi | dhellmann: yep, i'm saying don't have a definition for "active" | 20:21 |
| notmorgan | i just worry that we're going to lean on this verbiage and then need to justify it AND then change it after the fact | 20:22 |
| notmorgan | which could make people who are affected unhappyu | 20:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | I would rather the rule was subjective, and we note we estimate that with this objective measure, as I think thats closer to the reality here | 20:22 |
| notmorgan | and it can be defined as subjective | 20:22 |
| notmorgan | just be clear what we're looking at | 20:22 |
| mtreinish | johnthetubaguy: yeah, I'm leaning that way too | 20:22 |
| fungi | just say the tag applies to reviewers with +2 on at least one repo and who have left n comments in 6 months instead of making up a word that it's a definition for | 20:22 |
| notmorgan | "active" is VERY uncertain. | 20:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | notmorgan: true | 20:23 |
| notmorgan | because it could be lots and lots of things. | 20:23 |
| notmorgan | i reviewed 3 things in two days, i am currently active. | 20:23 |
| russellb | surely we can agree that someone who hasn't done anything in 3 years isn't worth counting? | 20:23 |
| notmorgan | is that "Active"? | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | this is one of the most objective we have because there's a script written specifically to generate the output for applying it. We're leaning on that existing, well trod, definition of "active" | 20:23 |
| russellb | and if so, we can draw some sane line? | 20:23 |
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| russellb | it doesn't have to be perfect | 20:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | so exclude inactive reviewers, then estimate that somehow? | 20:24 |
| notmorgan | like i said, my concern is a bait and switch feel from folks affected | 20:24 |
| notmorgan | thats all. | 20:24 |
| fungi | again, which existing, well trod, definition of "active?" | 20:24 |
| dims | flaper87 : do you have a list of projects that will switch tags based on this? | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: so, you want it all in a single patch. Is that correct? | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | fungi : the script that flaper87 referenced above that's used to update the yaml file with this tag | 20:24 |
| notmorgan | flaper87: or proposed as a followup | 20:24 |
| ttx | OK -- SO... We already have a de-facto definition of active, used in the reviews % metric and reviewers % metric | 20:24 |
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| notmorgan | ttx: if we have that, we should lean on it for now or link to it. | 20:24 |
| ttx | This just proposes to apply the same definition to core reviews | 20:25 |
| russellb | which i made up when first writing that script | 20:25 |
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| russellb | and folks said "shrug, seems like a reasonable starting point" | 20:25 |
| dims | russellb :) | 20:25 |
| notmorgan | and it can be adjusted | 20:25 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: I could propose the follow-up *now* but I'm curious to know how/why would that change your mind? It'd still be a 2-steps change | 20:25 |
| fungi | and it was previously called "active" in another tag (but not this one). so i guess that counts as it being a sort of definition of the term | 20:25 |
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| ttx | notmorgan: That's what the proposed patch does. THEN we need to extract it from code to governance, I guess | 20:25 |
| ttx | But this patch doesn't make anything worse | 20:25 |
| notmorgan | flaper87: it means it is in work. i have seen a LOT of things fall off the radar (and I'm guilty of this too), it just keeps the convo active [or ML topic?] | 20:25 |
| annegentle | flaper87: I'd can get behind a second patch that follows on | 20:26 |
| russellb | i'd also like to paint it green | 20:26 |
| mtreinish | ttx: except it silentyl changes what we're enforcing, without any outward indication. You have to look at the script to figure it out | 20:26 |
| notmorgan | it's a continuity, so if someone complains we can say "lok here in XXXX review and comment" | 20:26 |
| flaper87 | ok, proposing it now | 20:26 |
| notmorgan | we have a clear place to point folks vs "oh ... in the future" | 20:26 |
| dims | ttx : if we end up changing definition of active, then some projects will flip flop | 20:26 |
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| notmorgan | flaper87: i prefer it a single patch, but also understand the defnition may need work | 20:26 |
| annegentle | dims: amrith (who's better than me!) tested it though and no projects get different tags because of it (Right?) | 20:27 |
| amrith | I'm trying it again annegentle | 20:27 |
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| amrith | I've used this tool in the past | 20:27 |
| amrith | and am somewhat familiar with it | 20:27 |
| amrith | but the threshold that flaper87 proposed doesn't cause it to generate any warnings like "XYZ shouldn't have this tag" or "XYZ should have this tag" | 20:27 |
| notmorgan | sorry, just trying to make sure we're not causing flip-flopping of project status etc. | 20:27 |
| amrith | which is what I expected. | 20:27 |
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| ttx | Oh well, I guess we could continue that one on the review. It's sad that those opposing it did not read it before | 20:28 |
| amrith | notmorgan, that was my concern as well. | 20:28 |
| notmorgan | without at least a place for those affected to comment after this lands. | 20:28 |
| russellb | it's just a cleanup to be more explicit about something ... | 20:28 |
| ttx | because this is not very constructive | 20:28 |
| russellb | ttx: ++ | 20:28 |
| annegentle | I read it, but didn't test it. | 20:28 |
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| dims | ttx : i am not opposed, just looking for some additional info | 20:28 |
| ttx | The meeting is not the best placve to discover opposition | 20:28 |
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| ttx | place* | 20:28 |
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| flaper87 | annegentle: fwiw, I tested it too and no projects would be tagged as a sinle vendor just yet. Some of them get close, though. | 20:29 |
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| ttx | flaper87: do you think we should continue to discuss it here, or on the review ? | 20:29 |
| amrith | thx flaper87 I concur with that assessment. | 20:29 |
| dims | flaper87 : fair enough. | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | the projects with this tag are going to change over time, whether we change its definition or not | 20:29 |
| annegentle | flaper87: ok, thanks | 20:29 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: mtreinish https://review.openstack.org/#/c/337853/ | 20:29 |
| flaper87 | That's the follow-up | 20:29 |
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| flaper87 | I've marked as WIP but that's the draft I have | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | I'm not super happy with it, I'll be super honest and say I had a bit of a hard time writing that down and finding the "right" wording. | 20:30 |
| ttx | Oh, this one is a bikeshed magnet | 20:30 |
| notmorgan | flaper87: thats fine | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | but I hope the review would be a good place for people to go crazy over the text | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | (go crazy in a good sense) | 20:30 |
| mtreinish | flaper87: yeah, that's what I'm looking for | 20:30 |
| notmorgan | flaper87: removed my -1 on the original one with a link so we can continue the convo | 20:30 |
| dims | flaper87 : "minimum number of gerrit reviews" | 20:30 |
| ttx | "This metric is not used (but will be used) to evaluate reviewers" | 20:31 |
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| fungi | this is what i meant about avoiding the word "active" | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | I'm done now. I hope we can get the first one in while we discuss the second one | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | we can move on | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | I don't expect us to fine the perfect definition for what we really mean in this meeting | 20:31 |
| ttx | me neither | 20:32 |
| dhellmann | fungi : we're trying to define "active" in one place so we can use the same definition in more than one place without having to update it everywhere when that definition changes. Why do you consider that a bad practice? | 20:32 |
| fungi | dhellmann: the word itself is charged | 20:32 |
| flaper87 | s/fine/find/ | 20:32 |
| ttx | ok, moving on | 20:32 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ok, we can pick a new word. | 20:32 |
| fungi | but we can take that discussion off-meetiong | 20:32 |
| dhellmann | ttx: yes, please | 20:32 |
| ttx | #topic remove release:managed tag | 20:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "remove release:managed tag (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:32 | |
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| * dhellmann stops beating his head on his desk | 20:32 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/335440 | 20:33 |
| ttx | dhellmann: care to introduce this one ? | 20:33 |
| ttx | (or I can if you prefer) | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | this tag is no longer used by the release team. I think it's no longer useful to the TC either. Folks have been trying to add it to their project, and I don't want us to spend time on it since no one is using it. | 20:33 |
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| ttx | Still missing a couple of votes | 20:34 |
| russellb | vote added | 20:34 |
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| notmorgan | vote added | 20:34 |
| russellb | still 1 down | 20:35 |
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| notmorgan | i already looked at it, and hadn't scored it | 20:35 |
| ttx | alright, a winner we have | 20:35 |
| notmorgan | lgtm | 20:35 |
| amrith | good to go, this is (yoda) | 20:35 |
| ttx | die, useless tag, die | 20:35 |
| annegentle | it's deliverables not projects... but I didn't vote... | 20:35 |
| notmorgan | lol | 20:35 |
| ttx | annegentle: heh | 20:35 |
| annegentle | I like the spirit! :) | 20:35 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:36 | |
| ttx | Some early feedback from the leadership training that some of us attended last week | 20:36 |
| ttx | I think we were all surprised how useful it was | 20:36 |
| * dims perks up | 20:36 | |
| * notmorgan is super sad to have missed it | 20:36 | |
| ttx | Personally I think the main value was in having us locked in a room for 2/3 days without distraction with some training/inspiration/tooling to learn from and open our minds | 20:37 |
| notmorgan | i... also am just now feeling closer to 100%. stupid flu. | 20:37 |
| * devananda perks up, too | 20:37 | |
| ttx | This was extremely well selected and prepared by gothicmindfood | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | ++ | 20:37 |
| * amrith very honored to have been there. wrote a blog post about it http://www.tesora.com/openstack-tc-will-not-opening-deli/ | 20:37 | |
| jroll | ++ | 20:37 |
| devananda | ++ | 20:37 |
| notmorgan | i am also very glad to not have shared the flu with the TC | 20:37 |
| notmorgan | and other folks. | 20:37 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | notmorgan : thank you for that | 20:37 |
| flaper87 | 2 things | 20:37 |
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| flaper87 | The first is a more general question to other TC members. How do people in the TC feel about the tc-chair delegating some of his duties when he/she is away? This doesn't happen frequently but there are occations when those delegations would help moving things forward in the absence of the tc-chair. We've never talked about this and a quick show hands would be great. | 20:37 |
| annegentle | notmorgan: yeah, thanks, no time for that! | 20:38 |
| notmorgan | i think it's fine. it's the same as a PTL delegating imo | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : we've delegated chairing meetings before. What else did you have in mind? | 20:38 |
| ttx | that would include delegation of the tc-chair +2 rights over the repo | 20:38 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: formal votes | 20:38 |
| mtreinish | flaper87: ttx takes time off? | 20:38 |
| notmorgan | the responsibility is the chair's but delegation is within those rights | 20:38 |
| ttx | mtreinish: no | 20:38 |
| flaper87 | mtreinish: secretly | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | mtreinish : not enough | 20:38 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: ++ | 20:38 |
| annegentle | that's a good idea for sanity and stewardship in combination | 20:39 |
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| flaper87 | just wanted to make sure there weren't strong oppositions to encouraging ttx to take some proper time off | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | :P | 20:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, seems sound to me, to allow that | 20:39 |
| notmorgan | i have zero issue. and ttx should totally take time off. | 20:39 |
| mtreinish | flaper87: heh | 20:39 |
| ttx | I'll be explicit anyway, like posting a warning on the tc list | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | I think it would be fine. We have a good level of trust with each other and it'd be wise to have multiple folks with the experience. | 20:39 |
| * flaper87 calls ttx's ISP and asks them to shut his internet connection DOWN | 20:40 | |
| ttx | whenever I adjust the gerrit group | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | ok, I've one more thing | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | The second thing is a, hopefully, improvement to the way we communicate TC matters to the rest of the community. I'd like to start sending TC meeting logs to the mailing list (again?). This would not replace the communications posted on the foundation blog but it'd give more immediate feedback of what's going on in the TC. | 20:40 |
| ttx | flaper87: you don't need to call, that happens regularly | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | The format of the email would include the agenda and quick (short) notes from the discussion. I'd love for us to start using meetbot's notes/infos more agressively as that would help writing this summary. Ideally, this would go out in the 24h that follow every TC meeting. | 20:40 |
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| flaper87 | ttx: LOOOOOOL | 20:40 |
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| ttx | ew, yeah, we'd need to behave again | 20:40 |
| ttx | and #info and #do things | 20:41 |
| annegentle | flaper87: like more info tags? | 20:41 |
| annegentle | ttx: yeah | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : in the car on the way to the airport last week we identified meeting announcements and summaries as things that could be dropped from the ML to cut down traffic | 20:41 |
| dims | i was thinking the same thing dhellmann | 20:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: I have similar feelings, honestly | 20:41 |
| annegentle | flaper87: do we have input that people want meeting notes? | 20:41 |
| ttx | feels like a step backward | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | anyone can use those commands, right? | 20:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | that being said, I do like the idea of the notes being better | 20:41 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: yeah I know I normally skip the meeting log ml posts | 20:41 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | so we could have a volunteer to add them, so ttx doesn't have to | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: most of those have been dropped, I forgot already when I sent one the last time as PTL. However, the TC being such a cross-project/cross-community thing, it feels like those summaries would be useful | 20:42 |
| jroll | I'd almost rather a newsletter "what's the TC been up to?" | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | and then we would still have the results, but skip the email | 20:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | flaper87: so would just better notes be a reasonable middle ground? | 20:42 |
| jroll | similar to the "what's up doc" thing | 20:42 |
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| ttx | yeah, agree that we should #info more things -- not sure yet another post to the ML helps | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: anyone can run those commands, yes | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | more notes would definitely help | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | jroll : yeah, annegentle and flaper87 have been doing those as blog posts | 20:42 |
| notmorgan | jroll: and the infra thing. | 20:42 |
| mtreinish | jroll: isn't that the foundation blog post? | 20:42 |
| jroll | then it could include things like summaries of threads on the tc mailing list or side conversations | 20:42 |
| jroll | mtreinish: not sure, how often is that published? | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | "as needed" | 20:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | jroll: I do like that general idea, maybe once per milestone ish | 20:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: as needed is a little dangerous, in terms of it not happening | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | jroll: every time we feel there's enough info to publish | 20:43 |
| jroll | ah | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | which is one of the reasons I'd like to make this summaries a routine | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | let me rephrase the intent | 20:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: basing that purely on python-novaclient releases while I was PTL | 20:43 |
| jroll | johnthetubaguy: I was thinking 1-4 times per month | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : they've been mostly doing OK at doing it every few meetings, esp. when there are big topics | 20:43 |
| annegentle | flaper87: yeah state the outcome you're looking for if you can | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | One thing I'd like to improve is the request for input from the community on ongoing discussions | 20:44 |
| ttx | flaper87: you should write a vision for it | 20:44 |
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| dhellmann | flaper87 : I agree that turning it into a routine would be good. I don't think we want to post a log from every meeting just because | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | And to provide quick updates of what has been discussed | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | ttx: jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | the logs aren't that useful without the context you and annegentle have been adding to the blog post | 20:44 |
| annegentle | yeah and the context is the hardest part to write :) | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | I can work on a sample format for that email | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | just posting logs is not what I want | 20:45 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : right. maybe we should go back to rotating that duty | 20:45 |
| annegentle | flaper87: I agree with wanting more input on discussions. | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | I'd send the agenda with notes on the topics that were discussed | 20:45 |
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| flaper87 | with links to the logs at the bottom | 20:45 |
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| ttx | fact is, most weeks we just process boring stuff, so there isn't so much to learn from that | 20:45 |
| jroll | vision: the community is up to speed with the happenings in the TC, and regularly giving feedback on those happenings :) | 20:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | so... on that note, how do we get more of our work done async? | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | ttx: that's cool! Making it a routine would avoid thinking whether it's needed or not | 20:46 |
| jroll | flaper87: I wonder if a better one is publish topics the TC wants input on before they're discussed in the meeting | 20:46 |
| jroll | with a brief summary | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | jroll: sometimes we don't know that in advance :/ | 20:46 |
| amrith | jroll, I thought that was generally the case (generally ...) | 20:46 |
| jroll | yeah | 20:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | so the agenda post could go to the dev list? | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | I mean, some discussions evolve in unexpected ways | 20:46 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: by commenting more on the review and less in the meeting ? | 20:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: yeah, basically | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | input is *always* welcome | 20:47 |
| dims | flaper87 : the email that ttx already sends on mondays...we can add more stuff there? | 20:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | so I think if we are more async, ML and on reviews | 20:47 |
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| johnthetubaguy | it gives everyone more chance to contribute | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | dims: pretty much! Add the notes from the meeting and send that to the ML | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | that's the format I had in mind | 20:47 |
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| ttx | dims: except that is an openstack-tc email | 20:47 |
| ttx | we could move it to -dev though, I guess | 20:47 |
| dims | right | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | ttx: yeah, I'd send that to the -dev ML, of course | 20:48 |
| ttx | but frankly, I would expect most people to not read past the first lines | 20:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | so... should we kill the TC list? or is that still useful for something I haven't seen yet? | 20:48 |
| notmorgan | ttx: i promise i'll at least read the subject! :P | 20:48 |
| ttx | We can't rely on that as a way to communicate | 20:48 |
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| ttx | We are teaching everyone to filter aggressively openstack-dev | 20:48 |
| ttx | so an email that is boring most of the tim shall be quickly ignored | 20:49 |
| ttx | time* | 20:49 |
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| flaper87 | except for the things that are important. I'd personally consider updates from the TC important but that's expected, I guess | 20:49 |
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| flaper87 | (or not :P) | 20:49 |
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| ttx | johnthetubaguy: it's useful for administrativia discussions that we'd rather not spam the list with. | 20:50 |
| amrith | ttx, with sending restrictions in place (must be a member to send), more lists is likely better than fewers lists. | 20:50 |
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| flaper87 | ttx: do you have feedback from thingee w.r.t the ML weekly summaries ? | 20:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | if we don't do it every week, I think the email becomes important | 20:50 |
| ttx | Useful, but we could do without, certainly | 20:50 |
| amrith | rather than the current method of [topic] in the subject. | 20:50 |
| annegentle | flaper87: might be nice to brainstorm more communication and "write it down" ideas | 20:50 |
| annegentle | flaper87: we could meet tomorrow early and send a post with ideas? | 20:51 |
| ttx | flaper87: to make that efficient thingee hasd to cross-post it to planet / openstack blog and 3 MLs | 20:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: I just wonder if we should do [tc-admin] or something, like we tell the projects to do? | 20:51 |
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| flaper87 | annegentle: sounds great. I wrote some ideas down on my flight back last week | 20:51 |
| annegentle | ttx: yeah, that was my thinking as well, you have to drown people with comms | 20:51 |
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| ttx | johnthetubaguy: that will likely result in people learning to ignore [tc] | 20:51 |
| dims | ttx : dhellmann : during the training, was there some carrots or sticks we could be using better? (assuming we did not find any new carrots or sticks to influence) | 20:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: yeah, thats while I think we need a separate tag for it | 20:51 |
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| annegentle | flaper87: ok, cool, I'll find you on IRC around 1430? | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | dims : most of the "next steps" we identified were related to writing down assumptions and expectations that many folks understand but may not be clearly documented | 20:52 |
| mtreinish | ttx: heh, you don't ignore it already? It gets put on random threads all the time | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | mmh, 15UTC would be better. I've a call at 1430 UTC | 20:52 |
| ttx | dims: we're still digesting what we learned. We discussed communications on the last day but without a clear solution | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | dims : and then building on those as a foundation | 20:52 |
| annegentle | dims: it's about writing down expectations (at the six year mark we do need to write more down) | 20:52 |
| annegentle | flaper87: works for me, great | 20:52 |
| dims | dhellmann : ttx : annegentle : ack | 20:52 |
| ttx | annegentle: flaper87: feel free to include me in that | 20:53 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: ++ that stuff is the big (slightly hidden) barrier to entry, did a lot of that kind of documentation with the Nova team last few cycles | 20:53 |
| flaper87 | ttx: sure thing | 20:53 |
| annegentle | dims: you want to read more about influence, I wrote this up afterwards (though it's not completely about the training, it's about having influence when you don't directly manage resources) http://justwriteclick.com/2016/06/30/influencing-community-documentation-contributions/ | 20:53 |
| annegentle | ttx: it's a party | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | dims : one of the big take-aways for me was that the zingerman community of businesses is also based on a group of people who do things a certain way, and not that they do a certain thing. Similar to our big tent change. | 20:53 |
| flaper87 | ok, I'm done | 20:54 |
| annegentle | is thingee around at that time? | 20:54 |
| ttx | I fear we need to fix / facilitate communications first before we had more things to the pile | 20:54 |
| dims | another interesting thought was about recording history of projects, decisions taken etc. (example http://docs.openstack.org/project-team-guide/oslo.html) | 20:54 |
| ttx | annegentle: no, he is in Asia this week | 20:54 |
| annegentle | ttx: ok thanks | 20:54 |
| dims | annegentle : thanks! added to my reading list | 20:54 |
| ttx | s/had/add | 20:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | dims: that sounds a little like the architecture group | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | ttx: yeah, that's what I've been putting most of my thoughts on lately | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | ttx: how to facilitate/improve communication | 20:54 |
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| dims | dhellmann : ack | 20:55 |
| ttx | flaper87: frankly, adding meeting summaries to an overcrowded list doesn't sound like a great solution to that :) | 20:55 |
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| dims | johnthetubaguy : yeah possibly | 20:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | but having meeting summaries available for those that go looking, is useful | 20:55 |
| anteaya | ttx: yeah I was just thinking we already have a lot to read | 20:55 |
| dims | right johnthetubaguy | 20:55 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: yes | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | yeah, we want folks to learn where to find the information they're seeking and make it easy to consume. meetings are already logged somewhere other than the ML. | 20:56 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: but they already are | 20:56 |
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| ttx | We shoudl do better at #info to make readable summaries. We should link them on governance.o.o | 20:56 |
| annegentle | #link http://www.openstack.org/blog/category/technical-committee-updates/ | 20:56 |
| anteaya | doubling up communication I think is less efficient that saying this is where you find it | 20:56 |
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| flaper87 | ttx: it might not be, sure. | 20:56 |
| annegentle | that's the grouping | 20:56 |
| ttx | We should publicize governance.o.o more | 20:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, thats what I am meaning, better summaries, by using the cmds better | 20:56 |
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| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : ++ | 20:56 |
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| ttx | those are all steps that would improve the situation | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | #agreed we should use meetbot more | 20:57 |
| annegentle | yeah | 20:57 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: :) | 20:57 |
| ttx | dhellmann: #agreed is a chair command :) | 20:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | so iterating feels good for these things, hopefully folks start finding us and asking questions, and we can start to build on what we have | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | ttx: :-( | 20:57 |
| ttx | You can do #info #idea #help and #action and #link | 20:58 |
| * flaper87 is happy we agreed on using meetbot more aggressively | 20:58 | |
| flaper87 | :P | 20:58 |
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| ttx | #agreed we should use meetbot more | 20:58 |
| dims | ++ flaper87 | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | #action everyone to use meetbot more aggressively | 20:58 |
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| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | nothing here | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | thanks everyone | 20:58 |
| mtreinish | I likely won't be able to make it to the next 2 meetings | 20:58 |
| mtreinish | I put it on the wiki already | 20:59 |
| dims | mtreinish : safe travels/vacation! | 20:59 |
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| ttx | Any opposition to adding CPLs to projects.yaml ? | 20:59 |
| mtreinish | heh, well linuxcon japan and the nova midcycle :) | 20:59 |
| ttx | https://review.openstack.org/336395 | 20:59 |
| mtreinish | so mostly vacation | 20:59 |
| dims | :) | 20:59 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: feels like CPLs are a bit like cores, dealt with by the project | 21:00 |
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| ttx | On one hand it's good to have information centralized, on the other it feels like more churn for projects.yaml | 21:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: but the wiki feels a bad way to maintain them | 21:00 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: yeah, I'm there too | 21:00 |
| dims | +1 ttx we can treat that as a trivial update | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | ttx: they are series specific, so I suggested to include them in the new series stuff we're going to set up for goals | 21:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: maybe a standard text file in every repo for contact info? | 21:00 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ooooh | 21:00 |
| ttx | nice | 21:00 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: could be in release repo ? | 21:01 |
| dims | even better | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | ttx: we could talk about moving ptls there, too | 21:01 |
| anteaya | what is the benefit to having them in projects.yaml? | 21:01 |
| notmorgan | (FYI timecheck, i think we're at the end) | 21:01 |
| mtreinish | johnthetubaguy: that's an interesting idea | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | ttx: no, governance | 21:01 |
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| ttx | ok, let's move that in-review | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | anteaya : we're starting to build tools that want to parse the wiki page, and yaml is easier | 21:01 |
| ttx | thanks everyone | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 5 21:01:36 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| anteaya | sure but any yaml file does that | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-07-05-20.01.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-07-05-20.01.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-07-05-20.01.log.html | 21:01 |
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