Tuesday, 2016-07-26

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hongbin#startmeeting zun03:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 26 03:00:26 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.03:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.03:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'zun'03:00
hongbin#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2016-07-26_0300_UTC Today's agenda03:00
hongbin#topic Roll Call03:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
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WenzhiWenzhi Yu03:00
mkraiMadhuri Kumari03:00
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hongbinThanks for joining the meeting Wenzhi mkrai shubhams_ Namrata yanyanhu flwang03:02
hongbin#topic Announcements03:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)"03:02
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hongbinWe have a CLI now!03:02
hongbin#link https://github.com/openstack/python-zunclient03:02
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/337360/ service-list command is supported03:02
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/344594/ it is enabled in devstack03:02
hongbinThanks mkrai for the work :)03:03
mkraiMy Pleasure :)03:03
hongbin#topic Review Action Items03:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: zun)"03:03
hongbin1. hongbin investigate an option for message passing (DONE)03:03
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-state-management03:03
hongbinWe have a session below to discuss it03:04
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hongbin#topic Re-consider RabbitMQ. How about using key/value store (i.e. etcd) for passing messages (shubhams)03:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Re-consider RabbitMQ. How about using key/value store (i.e. etcd) for passing messages (shubhams) (Meeting topic: zun)"03:04
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-state-management03:04
hongbinHere you go03:04
hongbinWant a few minutes to work on the etherpad?03:05
mkraihongbin, Thanks for the work03:05
mkraiBut seems we haven't looked at taskflow03:05
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hongbintaskflow looks more high level03:05
mkraiShall we also look at it and then decide on a final option03:05
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hongbinmkrai: do you have an idea about how to use taskflow?03:06
mkraiNo not yet03:06
mkraiBut I can look at it03:06
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shubhams_taskflow has more use cases for a component like heat .. Dividing each operation in small tasks and then work upon them03:06
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hongbinSounds like it is not conflict with the choice of data store03:07
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hongbinYou can have taskflows for tasks, but not for data store03:07
mkraiYes more of message passing03:07
hongbinnot sure for messaging pssing03:08
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WenzhiIMO rabbitmq is reliable for message passing03:08
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mkraiAnd etcd for storage03:09
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Wenzhiand it's easy to implement by importing oslo.messaging03:09
hongbinYes, it is03:09
hongbinsudipto: hey03:10
hongbinsudipto: we are discussing this etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-state-management03:10
sudiptohongbin, thanks. Looking.03:10
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hongbinOK. Maybe I could summarize03:11
hongbinFor data store03:11
hongbinThe choice is etcd and db03:11
hongbinBoth have pros and cons03:11
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hongbinFor options for passing message03:11
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Wenzhietcd is not designed for message passing but rabbitmq is03:11
hongbinThe choices is http or message queue03:11
hongbinWenzhi: yes03:12
WenzhiI think it's risky to employ etcd for message passing03:12
hongbinNo, etcd is not for passing message03:13
yanyanhuWenzhi, I think that depends on how we design the communication mechanism between different modules03:13
yanyanhuusing etcd, watching on configuration change is used to support it03:14
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yanyanhubut in most OpenStack services, messaging is the way applied03:14
hongbinyanyanhu: good summarize03:15
yanyanhumyself is also not so sure which one is better, but we do have two choices here03:15
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Wenzhiyanyanhu: yes I agree, etcd also could be used for message passing, but I don't think it's as reliable as rabbitmq03:15
Wenzhias I said, it's not designed for this03:15
yanyanhuI see.03:16
hongbinThere are ways to deal with the unreliability I think03:16
yanyanhujust have little experience about them03:16
mkraiYes may be we are sure about rabbitmq because it is used in Openstack03:17
mkraiAnd that's not the case with etcd03:17
hongbinFor example, perioidcally sync data from data store03:17
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hongbinmkrai: good point. rabbitmq is easier to understand for us  maybe03:17
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hongbinThen, I would suggest to have both03:18
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hongbinWe can abstract the message passing03:18
shubhams_hongbin : option#3 in etherpad ?03:18
sudiptonovice question w.r.t the etherpad - when you schedule the container - you are storing the 'data' of the container in the datastore - what is this data? The provisioning request? When you create the container - host agents again store back the 200 OK or SUCCESS states back to the data store?03:18
hongbinshubhams_: yes03:18
hongbinsudipto: I copied the idea from k8s03:19
hongbinsudipto: here is how it works (i think)03:19
mkraisudipto, Is it architecture #1?03:19
sudiptomkrai, either #1 or #303:19
hongbinsudipto: the api server write the pod to etcd03:19
hongbinsudipto: the schedule assign pod to node, and write it to etcd, with state "pending"03:20
mkraiIt is the scheduling request03:20
hongbinsudipto: kubelet watch the node, figure out there is a new pod03:21
sudiptohongbin, and this figuring out - happens through some kind of polling?03:21
hongbinsudipto: then, create the pod. WHen finish, write the state as "running"03:21
hongbinsudipto: In k8s, they do both03:21
hongbinsudipto: they call it list and watch03:21
sudiptohongbin, or is it some kind of a rpc call back?03:22
hongbinsudipto: they periodically pulling data from api, also watch data chance03:22
sudiptohongbin, ok03:22
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hongbinThe watch will figure out there is a new pod03:22
sudiptodata chance == data channel?03:23
hongbinIf the watch is miss, it can be catched in the next pull03:23
hongbinI guess yes, it is basically a push03:23
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hongbinif kubelet watch a node, kubeapiserver will push an event to kubelet03:24
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hongbinI guess it happens via a http socket03:24
sudiptohongbin, ok... however, it does sound like - we will re-implement a scheduler in zun then?03:24
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sudiptosudipto, which i think is mostly needed since we want to do container scheduling and the reference architecture.03:25
hongbinsudipto: yes03:25
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sudiptohongbin, but i guess it should have some by pass mechanism while we are doing the COE support? Or should we just not think about it atm?03:25
hongbinNo, this is not for COE03:26
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hongbinThis is the runtime architecture03:26
hongbinwhich we call "referenced COE"03:26
sudiptohongbin, alrite. The runtime architecture which is the referenced one.03:26
sudiptohongbin, got it!03:26
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sudiptohongbin, the model does seem nice to follow for me. The only thing though is - this is a bit orthogonal to openstack03:27
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sudiptosounds like a lot of investment from development per say - but may be it's what we need.03:27
hongbinsudipto: yes, it is totally news for openstack devs03:27
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hongbinOK. Everyone, you have a choice or needs more time to decide?03:28
mkraiI think option #3 is better03:29
yanyanhuagree with #303:29
mkraiBut nothing can be said now as it all depends on performance03:29
yanyanhumkrai, +103:29
hongbinThen, I think option #3 is more flexible03:30
shubhams_agree with #303:30
sudipto#3 with a proof of concept03:30
hongbinif we find performance is not good, we can switch the backends03:30
hongbinsounds we agreed on #303:30
mkraiYes the architecture remains the same03:30
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hongbin#agreed try option #3 in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-state-management03:31
sudiptohongbin, the language of choice to code - is still python right?03:31
hongbinsudipto: yes python03:31
sudiptowith the Global Interpreter Lock :D03:31
sudiptogah - sorry about that. Basically I was talking about the slowness of python .03:31
hongbinWe are an OpenStack project, I guess we don't have choice for hte language03:32
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hongbineven if it is slow03:32
hongbinOK. Advance topic03:32
hongbin#topic Runtimes API design03:32
*** openstack changes topic to "Runtimes API design (Meeting topic: zun)"03:33
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/api-design The BP03:33
yanyanhuI have almost forgot everything I have learned about other language since I worked on openstack :)03:33
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-api The etherpad03:33
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-api-spec The spec03:33
mkraiI worked on the api patch last week but it is not yet ready03:33
mkraiTo test it we first need to finalize the backend services03:33
mkraiLike what services we will have conductor or compute or both?03:34
hongbinmkrai: we just decided to go with #303:34
hongbinmkrai: that means no conductor basically03:34
mkraiOk so compute and scheduler03:35
hongbinmkrai: just api and agent (compute)03:35
hongbinmkrai: yes03:35
mkraiOk so I need to work on compute agent as it doesn't have the docker api calls03:35
mkraiThis makes things more simpler03:36
mkraiI will work on same03:36
sudiptomkrai, can you explain what you meant by "doesn't have the docker api calls"?03:36
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mkraisudipto, the compute code is not yet implemented that has the essential container related actions03:37
mkraiLike the docker container create or etc03:37
sudiptomkrai, sigh! My bad. Got it.03:37
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mkraiI have a patch upstream for conductor that has this all03:38
mkraiNow I will work on adding it to compute03:38
sudiptoyour calls to docker APIs were in the conductor?03:38
Wenzhimkrai: I'll help on that03:38
mkraiYes sudipto03:38
mkraiWe are following the openstack architecture and that was bad03:39
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sudiptooh - that doesn't sound like the place to put them anyway right? Since you would always have that in the compute agent - with the new design or otherwise.03:39
mkraiYes that patch was submitted before compute agent I remember03:39
sudiptoyeah ok...03:39
mkraiSo that's why03:39
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sudiptoi am up for doing code reviews - and help wherever i can.03:40
mkraiThanks sudipto :)03:40
mkraihongbin, that's all from my side.03:40
hongbinthanks mkrai03:40
sudiptothe design of the compute agent probably also should go into an etherpad?03:40
sudiptobefore we start realizing it with code?03:40
Wenzhimkrai: this is the bp for compute agent https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/zun-host-agent03:41
sudiptosince i would imagine a stevedore plugin or some such thing to load drivers?03:41
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mkraiThanks Wenzhi03:41
hongbinsudipto: I guess we can code first03:41
mkraiI will connect to you later03:41
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sudiptohongbin, i guess we should design first :) but that's me.03:42
hongbinsudipto: The compute is basically the implementation details, which cannot be explained clearly in an etherpad03:42
sudiptosince we have now involved arch # 3 which will vary from the traditional openstack projects.03:42
hongbinsudipto: yes, maybe03:43
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sudiptobut either way - i am good.03:43
mkraiYes agree sudipto03:43
hongbinsudipto: OK, then I will leave it to the contribution03:43
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hongbinsudipto: if the contributor like to have the design in etherpad, it works03:43
sudiptohongbin, ok - shall be eager to work with mkrai and Wenzhi to have that in place.03:43
hongbinsudipto: if the contributor want to code first, it also works03:44
hongbinsudipto: k03:44
Wenzhieither works for me03:44
sudiptogreat progress so far :)03:44
hongbinlet's advance topic03:45
hongbin#topic COE API design03:45
*** openstack changes topic to "COE API design (Meeting topic: zun)"03:45
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-coe-service-api Etherpad03:45
hongbinI guess we can leave the etherpad as homework03:45
hongbinand discuss the details there03:45
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hongbinAnything you guys want to discuss about the COE api?03:46
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mkraiI think we can discuss later03:46
hongbin#topic Nova integration03:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Nova integration (Meeting topic: zun)"03:46
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/nova-integration The BP03:47
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-nova-integration The etherpad03:47
sudiptohongbin, not related to the API design as such, but i think - we can have a way to plug the scheduler as well. For instance - we could plug a mesos scheduler and work with runtimes above it?03:47
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hongbinsudipto: good point03:47
hongbinsudipto: I think this is a good idea, besides you, there are other people asking for that03:48
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mkraisudipto, That's only specific to the COEs?03:48
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mkraiLet's discuss that in open discussion03:48
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sudiptomkrai, I would guess so - unless we build a zun runtime - that could be plugged to the mesos scheduler as well. So yeah open discussions then.03:49
mkraiNow nova integration :)03:49
hongbinNamrata_: are you the one who volunteer to work on Nova integration?03:49
hongbinNamrata_: anything you wan tto update the team?03:49
Namrata_i have gone through ironic code03:49
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Namrata_Nova conductor and scheduler are tightly coupled03:50
Namrata_as we are considering scheduler for zun03:50
Namrata_we have two schedulers03:51
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Namrata_imo we wwill give preference to zun's scheduler03:51
Namrata_and discard the host info given by nova's scheduler03:51
mkraiYes that's a pitfall for us03:51
hongbinyanyanhu: what do you think?03:52
sudiptoi thought we were looking at it more like a replacement to the nova-docker driver? Is that still true?03:52
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mkraiYes sudipto03:52
mkraiBut nova-docker doesn't have any scheduler03:52
sudiptomkrai, yeah coz it's yet another compute driver to nova.03:53
sudiptobut i keep forgetting... the reason we want to think like ironic is because of the dual scheduler thingy?03:53
hongbinFor Ironic, it uses the nova scheduler03:53
yanyanhuhongbin, sorry, just trapped by some other stuff03:53
hongbinyanyanhu: we are discussing the scheduler03:54
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yanyanhuabout scheduler, if we can reuse the nova scheduler, that will be the best I feel03:54
yanyanhubut not sure when they will split it out03:54
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WenzhiI think it's not easy for us to reuse nova scheduler03:55
sudiptoi am wondering - the API design we just had for the zun runtime - doesn't necessarily map to the nova VM states - so how do we want to deal with it?03:55
Wenzhicontainer is not like server(virtual or physical)03:55
yanyanhuWenzhi, yes, they behaves differently03:56
mkraiSo does it mean schedulers also differ?03:56
Wenzhiironic use nova scheduler because physical servers are also servers03:56
yanyanhujust feel the scheduling mechanism could be similar03:56
Wenzhithey can fit into nova data model, but containers can not, right?03:56
yanyanhujust placement decision03:57
sudiptoWenzhi, precisely the point i thought...03:57
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hongbin#topic Open Discussion03:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)"03:57
mkraisudipto, Doesn't the scheduler also?03:57
yanyanhubased on resource capability and also other advanced strategy03:57
sudiptomkrai, scheduler also - does not fit for containers you mean?03:58
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mkraiI mean the nova scheduler for containers03:58
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yanyanhumkrai, you mean for nova-docker?03:59
sudiptomkrai, yeah - i would guess so. It's a rabbit hole there.03:59
sudiptoanyway that i don't mean to de-rail that effort... so either way again - it works for me.03:59
hongbinOK. Time is up.03:59
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hongbinThanks everyone for joining the meeting03:59
mkraiLets discuss on zun channel04:00
Wenzhithanks all04:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"04:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 26 04:00:11 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)04:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-07-26-03.00.html04:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-07-26-03.00.txt04:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-07-26-03.00.log.html04:00
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Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 26 13:00:23 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
Qiming#topic roll call13:00
*** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
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Qimingxinhui or haiwei online?13:01
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lixinhui_Just jumped in13:02
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Qimingyou jumped beautifully13:02
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Qiming#topic newton work items13:02
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Qiming#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-newton-workitems13:02
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Qimingany progress on stress testing last week?13:03
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QimingI saw yanyan's rally work blocked for release-cut window13:03
yanyanhuQiming, yes13:04
yanyanhustill waiting, guess still need to wait for a while13:04
Qimingis that patch the last one we will "beg" rally to merge in?13:04
yanyanhuQiming, it is not necessary to add all them into rally repo13:05
yanyanhubut letting them stay in rally side is better than keeping them inside senlin13:05
yanyanhuso will first add plugins into our repo and migrate them into rally gradually13:05
yanyanhuwe don't need to hold them by ourselves13:05
Qimingbut it will still be senlin team to maintain it13:06
Qimingthen what's the benefit?13:06
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yanyanhujust once there some structure refactoring inside rally, we will know at once if it breaks senlin plugin I think13:07
Qiminghopefully, we won't forget adding/modifying rally jobs when we change things ...13:07
Qimingthat testing can be done at senlin gate as well13:07
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Qiminga little bit upset by the slow reviews there13:08
yanyanhuQiming, yes, me too...13:08
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yanyanhulooks like the team has no enough bandwidth for all these reviews...13:08
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yanyanhubut we do get lots of important comments :)13:09
yanyanhuto help improve my patch and let me get better understand of rally13:09
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Qiminganyway, I agree we should do this at senlin repo at first, then migrate to rally step by step13:09
yanyanhuQiming, yes13:09
yanyanhuthis is my plan13:09
Qimingany other updates about benchmarking/performance testing?13:10
Qimingguess no13:10
Qimingmoving on13:10
yanyanhuno other progress I think13:10
Qiminghealth management13:11
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QimingI spent some time reading oslo.messaging code13:11
Qiming2 findings13:11
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Qiming1. the transport used for listeners is supposed to be different from the one used for RPC, that one has been fixed, although we still get a working listener there somehow13:12
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Qiming2. when invoking 'get_notification_listener', we have an opportunity to specify the 'executor'13:13
Qimingwhich defaults to 'blocking' today13:13
Qimingother choices are 'threading', 'eventlet'13:13
QimingI tried them both but had to revert to 'blocking' for the listeners to work properly13:14
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lixinhui_what do the other two mean?13:14
Qimingthe only pitfall is that we will get a warning from oslo.messaging saying that our listener may be hang forever listening to events13:14
Qimingthat is acceptable13:15
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Qimingthey are imported from package 'futurist' directly13:15
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Qimingthat package provides options to execute taks in different flavors13:15
QimingI don't have a lot bandwidth to dig into that13:15
Qimingif anyone is interested in this, here is the doc: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/futurist/api.html#executors13:16
Qimingthat is how oslo.message dispatches events13:16
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QimingLB bug fix, any news there?13:16
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lixinhui_Two of three patches have been accepted13:17
lixinhui_still this one https://review.openstack.org/32562413:17
Qimingbtw, someone stopped by on senlin channel asking for a working version of health policy13:17
Qiminghe said he watched our presentation on austin summit13:17
lixinhui_I can provide one13:18
Qimingthat is ringing a loud alarm to me13:18
lixinhui_if he or she needs13:18
Qimingwe should be very very very careful when delivering presentation/demos13:18
lixinhui_Adam has some concerns13:18
Qimingunless we can ensure users can reproduce the demo easily using the public code base13:19
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lixinhui_I think you have revised the health policy from WIP13:19
Qimingor else, we will have difficulties attracting them to come back13:20
Qimingthat health policy is still not working13:20
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Qimingthe loop is not closed13:20
Qimingand fencing is not there yet13:20
Qimingpeople will git clone and try it and see that it doesn't work13:21
Qimingthen they leave13:21
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Qimingso ... for the coming barcelona presentations, no matter which one(s) are accepted13:22
Qimingthe demos used in those talks must work13:22
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Qimingthe code/profile/policy has to show up in main tree13:22
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QimingI'll spend time on health management this week13:23
Qimingtry to close the loop asap13:23
Qiminglet's move on?13:24
yanyanhuone question13:24
yanyanhudoes https://review.openstack.org/345916 fixes the issues xinhui mentioned?13:24
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yanyanhuabout wait after listener is tarted13:24
yanyanhuthis one13:24
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Qimingpls check the bug report13:25
openstackLaunchpad bug 1605869 in senlin "hang: wait is waiting for stop to complete" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Cindia-blue (miaoxinhuili)13:25
Qimingit is not an error reported by oslo.messaging13:25
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Qimingoslo.messaging is too smart in this respect13:25
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Qimingwhen it detects we didn't set a timer when calling wait()13:26
Qimingit will warn us that the listener may listen forever13:26
yanyanhuI see13:26
Qimingthus a 'hang'13:26
Qimingactually, that is what we wanted in a listener thread13:26
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Qiminga dedicated listener thread13:27
Qimingokay, moving on13:27
yanyanhujust need to ensure stop is explicitly called before stoping health manager13:27
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Qimingyep, that will be desirable13:27
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Qiminghowever, in multi-engine setup, we don't have a way to gracefully shutdown all threads13:27
Qimingif we start a single engine, we can see that all threads are gracefully killed13:28
Qimingthat is a broader problem to solve13:28
yanyanhuyes, it is13:28
Qimingmoving on, documentation13:28
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QimingI'm working on tutorial documentation for autoscaling today13:29
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Qimingto make auto-scaling work, I am using ceilometer + aodh + senlin13:29
Qimingmany interesting/annoying findings13:29
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Qimingbut finally, I got auto-scaling with cpu_util working now13:30
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Qimingthough I know in theory it should work13:30
Qimingshare some findings with you:13:30
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Qiming1. aodh alarm-update cannot process --query parameters properly, we have to get --query specified properly when doing 'aodh alarm create'13:31
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Qiming2. recent modifications to python-openstacksdk is breaking server details retrieval13:32
yanyanhusounds like a bug?13:32
Qimingwe cannot get 'image' and 'flavor' properties if we are using latest master13:32
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yanyanhumeans senlin node-show -D will break as well?13:32
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Qimingyes, that one was broken as well13:32
yanyanhuI see...13:33
QimingI have rebased senlin resources to resource2/proxy213:33
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Qimingto make that work, I have spent a lot time discussing with sdk team about the 'to_dict()' method which was removed from resource2.Resource13:34
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Qimingit will break all senlinclient resource show command13:34
yanyanhuyes, think so13:34
yanyanhuwe use [''] now13:34
Qimingif you are interested in this, you can check the review history: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/331518/13:35
yanyanhunot a backward compatible change13:35
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Qimingit took about one month to get that accepted13:35
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Qimingback to the auto-scaling experiment13:36
yanyanhuyes, noticed the discussion between you and brian13:36
yanyanhuwill check it :)13:36
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Qimingthis is how I created an alarm:13:36
Qimingaodh alarm create -t threshold --name c1a1 -m cpu_util --threshold 50 --comparison-operator gt --evaluation-periods 1 --period 60 --alarm-action http://node1:8778/v1/webhooks/518fc9b7-01e8-410a-ac34-59fb33cb398f/trigger?V=1 --repeat-actions True --query metadata.user_metadata.cluster=113707a0-8fdc-434f-b824-98fd706a5e0d13:36
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Qimingthe tricky part is in the --query parameter, not well documented, and it is using 'pyparsing'13:37
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Qimingthe docs says that '==' can be used, but it won't work13:37
Qimingno one is telling you that you should use 'metadata.user_metadata.cluster' for filtering13:38
yanyanhuwell, inconsistency in document again...13:38
Qiminghad to read the source code to get it work13:38
yanyanhusure, I did that two and half years ago13:38
yanyanhuwhen I first time try fitlering in ceilometer13:38
Qimingafter this step, you won't get an alarm13:38
yanyanhustill happening :)13:38
Qimingbecause in all the cpu_util samples, you won't see the nova metadata included13:39
Qimingthen ceilometer cannot evaluate the samples, aodh cannot fire an alarm13:39
yanyanhulooks weird13:40
Qimingafter reading the source code, I figured that I have to add one line into ceilometer.conf file:13:40
Qimingreserved_metadata_keys = cluster13:40
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yanyanhuwhat does that mean?13:40
Qimingafter that, restart ceilometer compute agent13:40
Qimingthe ceilometer compute pollster will now know  that 'cluster' value in the nova.metadate should be reserved13:41
Qimingor else, ceilometer is dropping all metadata key-values, unless the keys are prefixed by 'metering.'13:41
QimingI don't think this is documented anywhere13:41
yanyanhuI see13:42
yanyanhuI recalled I met similar problem before13:42
yanyanhuat the end of 201413:42
QimingI'll document the process into the tutorial doc, so users will know how to make the whole thing work13:42
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yanyanhuneeded to do some hack to address it13:42
yanyanhusince this condition was not always satisfied13:43
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Qimingsince haiwei is not online and no one is working on container support, we can skip the container profile item13:44
yanyanhunot a pleasant experience :)13:44
Qimingengine, NODE_CREATE, NODE_DELETE13:44
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QimingI think the problem is solved now13:44
yanyanhusaw those patches13:44
QimingI was thinking of deriving cluster actions from node actions so that policies will be respected13:44
Qimingbut it turned out to be too complicated13:45
yanyanhucurrent solution is good I think13:45
QimingI did a workaround, making policy aware of NODE_xxx actions13:45
Qimingthat is making things much more clearer13:45
yanyanhuyes, and differentiate node actions derived from different sources13:45
Qimingso .. deleting that work item13:46
Qimingyep, we had that design/impl in place, these patches were just leveraging them13:46
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Qimingem ... need to add some release notes about this13:46
yanyanhuright :)13:46
Qimingzaqar receiver thing13:47
Qimingwhere are we?13:47
yanyanhuno progress this week...13:47
yanyanhustill pending for sdk support13:47
yanyanhuand also document updating13:47
yanyanhuI have made some local test on 'message' resource13:47
Qimingif sdk support is in, we will get a working version soon?13:47
yanyanhubut still some problems need to fix13:47
yanyanhuto figure out13:47
Qimingthen grab wangfl13:48
yanyanhunope, it is just for queue13:48
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yanyanhuhe is working on that I think13:48
yanyanhusaw his patch13:48
Qimingthen continue grabbing him when necessary, :)13:48
Qimingno update about event/notification from last week13:49
yanyanhusure :) owe him a beer13:49
Qiming#topic newton deliverables13:49
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Qimingguys, if you take a look at the newton release schedule13:49
Qiming#link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html13:49
Qimingyou will see that we are at week R-1013:50
Qimingthat means we still have 10 weeks before the final 2.0.0 release13:50
yanyanhua month left13:50
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Qimingif we consider newton-3 milestone, we only have 1 month13:51
yanyanhuyes, for feature freeze13:51
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Qiminghopefully, we can deliver what we planned at the beginning of this cycle13:51
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Qiminge.g. profile-validate, policy-validate, cluster-collect, cluster-do, health policy, notification, container profile13:51
yanyanhualso message type of receiver13:52
elynnI might got some spare time next week, hope we can finish that.13:52
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yanyanhuelynn, great :)13:52
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Qimingyep, time to step up and claim some items that most interested you13:52
yanyanhuknow you are really trapping on some annoying stuff :)13:52
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Qimingthat is life13:53
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yanyanhualways :)13:53
Qimingnever meant to be an easy one for anybody13:53
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Qimingglad wie can still get things moving forward and even accomplish something we feel good13:54
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Qiminglet's see what we can complete during the coming month13:54
Qiming#topic open discussions13:54
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:54
yanyanhuoh, BTW, about the mascot13:54
Qimingright, I replied their email13:55
yanyanhuI guess forest?13:55
Qimingmaybe just forest13:55
yanyanhuits an obvious choice for us13:55
Qimingthat is what senlin means13:55
Qimingwe still have choices13:55
Qimingif you have some favorite animal13:55
elynnyes!that what senlin is :)13:55
yanyanhuforest is straightforward :)13:56
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yanyanhueasy to understand, I think the picture we always use in the slice is ok13:56
Qimingemail from Heidi:13:56
QimingThank you so much for the reply! Of course I won’t mock you. Actually, I’m thrilled to know you already have a great mascot that works with this project. Senlin will have the first right of refusal on a forest since that’s already your logo. You might want to discuss with your team whether you intend the trees in your forest to look deciduous, evergreen, or a specific variety (stands of Aspen, for example). That can help guide our illustrator13:56
Qiming to make a forest that reflects what you like.13:56
yanyanhuhope no conflict with other projects :P13:56
QimingHeidi Joy13:56
Qimingdeciduous, evergreen, or ...13:57
yanyanhuevergreen sounds good, haha13:57
yanyanhufor HA13:57
Qiminggood point13:57
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Qiming2 minutes left13:58
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Qimingthanks for joining boys and girls13:59
yanyanhuno other topic from me13:59
Qimingwill you all a happy night13:59
Qimingpleasant one13:59
yanyanhutake good care of you baby :)13:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 26 13:59:54 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-07-26-13.00.html13:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-07-26-13.00.txt13:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-07-26-13.00.log.html14:00
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saggiping xiangxinyong45615:00
saggiDo you want to chair the meeting or should I?15:00
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xiangxinyong456saggi, you best.15:01
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saggi#startmeeting smaug15:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 26 15:01:25 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is saggi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'smaug'15:01
xiangxinyong456i am on my mobile15:01
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saggiHi everyone15:01
saggiAnyone else here?15:01
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saggiAre we waiting for anyone?15:02
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xyang1saggi: can I bring up something quickly?15:03
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saggiThough there is an open discussion portion at the end15:03
xyang1saggi: I can wait to the end15:03
saggi#topic Add pause and resume interface for scheduled operations15:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Add pause and resume interface for scheduled operations (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:03
saggiIIRC We already have this15:04
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zhonghua-leealready have?15:05
chenzengsaggi:yes, does everybody take a look at this suggestion15:05
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chenzengsaggi:maybe we have not suppot these two apis15:06
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saggiWhy not just change the status?15:06
saggiIf status is disabled\paused we don't trigger15:06
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saggino need to unregister in the API15:06
chenzengbecause we have registered the opertion to the trigger in the memory15:06
saggichenzeng: In memory we can unregister. But no in the DB.15:07
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chenzengsaggi:yes, so we have two steps15:07
saggiSo if the user modifies the scheduler operation to have status="paused". We will unregister internally.15:08
saggiNo need for new API paths15:08
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chenzengsaggi:as i know, we don't have the logic as you said15:09
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saggichenzeng: We can add it. I think it's preferable to having new API paths for pause\resume15:10
chenzengsaggi:i agree15:11
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saggiAnything else on this topic?15:12
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saggi#topic Where to show the status of restoration?15:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Where to show the status of restoration? (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:12
saggiThis is an interesting question.15:12
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saggiDon't we get this from HEAT?15:13
saggiWhat does it use?15:13
xiangxinyongsaggi: yeah. we can get it from heat.15:13
saggiIt could be added to the restore model.15:13
saggiwe get the information from heat and retrieve it there.15:14
saggiSimilar to how we do it for checkpoint.15:14
xiangxinyongsaggi: it seems we are talking about another question15:14
xiangxinyongWhen the end user restore a checkpoint15:14
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saggiThis is what I'm talking about. This creates a restore object.15:15
xiangxinyongwe will add a record into the restore table15:15
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xiangxinyongcould i think the restore object is put into restores table?15:15
saggiCould you rephrase that. I don't understand.15:16
xiangxinyongWe have a db table named "Restores" to store the records when we restore from a checkpoint.15:17
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saggiIt should relate the the corresponding Heat operation15:18
xiangxinyongand the DB table "Restores" has a field named "Status"15:18
xiangxinyongand also we have a "Status" on the checkpoint15:19
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zhonghua-leewhere to restore the status?15:19
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xiangxinyongthe status of checkpoint include "Protecting" "Available"15:19
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saggixiangxinyong: "protecting"?15:19
saggirestoring maybe15:19
xiangxinyongsaggi: about this question: Where to show the status of restoration?15:20
xiangxinyongdo you think we need to show "Restoring" on the checkpoint?15:20
xiangxinyongor just onlu show "Restoring" on the DB table "Restores"15:21
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xiangxinyongor both?15:21
saggiI think just in restores15:21
saggiSince it's not a status for the checkpoint15:22
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saggiThe restore should point the the checkpoint15:22
sagginot the other way around15:22
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xiangxinyongso you think the status of checkpoint just only include the protecting and available?15:23
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zhonghua-leesaggi: so smaug will update the record in Restore table after restoration. am I right?15:23
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zhonghua-leelooks good15:24
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xiangxinyongOK. understood.15:25
saggi#topic add policy for checkpoints management15:25
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*** openstack changes topic to "add policy for checkpoints management (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:25
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zhonghua-leethis proposal just want to add a policy for checkpoint management15:26
saggiThis is what Schedule Operations are for. You can have one that limits the amount of checkpoints every night to 10.15:27
zhonghua-leee.g. the end user want to keep three checkpoints for one plan.15:27
zhonghua-leesaggi: yes15:27
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zhonghua-leebut how about add this function in checkpoint management moudule?15:28
saggiI don't understand the suggestion15:28
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yuvalbrHey, sorry for being late15:28
zhonghua-leeI mean we can add a moudule to manage the checkpoints15:28
saggiThese kind of operation are by design relegated to the Operation Engine or some external Policy mechanism15:29
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zhonghua-leewhat means for external Policy mechanism?15:30
zhonghua-leesmaug provide a Rest API to delete checkpoint? query checkpoints by plan?15:31
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zhonghua-leethe other module do this operation?15:31
saggiSomething can use the Rest API to query and delete.15:32
zhonghua-leeI perfer to  Smaug.15:32
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saggiIt will need to handle the transaction15:32
saggiThe problem with implementing it in Smaug is that we find that many users want to use their own policy mechanisms15:32
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zhonghua-leesaggi: yes15:32
zhonghua-leeif we add this function into Operation Engine15:33
saggiThis is it's purpose.15:33
zhonghua-leethat will make the policy very complex15:33
zhonghua-leenot only for backup policy15:34
zhonghua-leebut also for checkpoints policy15:34
saggiI'm sorry, but I don't understand the problem. Could you please be more specific?15:34
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xiangxinyongsaggi: zhonghua means that if some users want to keep only 3 checkpoints every plan in the bank15:35
chenzengsaggi: what's your opinion about question 'just keep 3 checkpoint for a scheduled protection operation which will generate 1 checkpoint every day'15:35
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zhonghua-leeyeah , chenzegn give the example15:36
saggiYou can have an advance operation that creates and deletes. The operation engine is built for these kind of transaction.15:36
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zhonghua-leeoperation extension sounds the best choice15:37
chenzengsaggi:so you want to add a new operation?15:37
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zhonghua-leebut how the operation know the new checkpoint created successfully?15:38
chenzengthis operation will invoke the api to create the checkpoint, and then check the number of checkpoint, if ecceed the 3, delete the oldest15:38
saggichenzeng: Exactly15:39
xiangxinyongbut if the user only use the method "protect now"?15:40
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saggiIt will delete when the scheduled operation runs.15:41
saggiSince this is the point it will check for the number of checkpoints.15:41
zhonghua-leexiangxinyong: you mean user create checkpoint manully?15:41
saggiWe could add checkpoint MD to make sure they don't get counted.15:41
xiangxinyongzhonghua-lee: yeah15:41
chenzengzhonghua-lee:the 'create checkpoint' api will return a id of checkpoint if it success15:41
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zhonghua-leesaggi: who will check when ceeating manully?15:42
zhonghua-leethe caller?15:42
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saggicreate checkpoint returns an ID from the start. Not only for success.15:43
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saggizhonghua-lee: yes15:43
zhonghua-leechenzeng: yeah, but it not really success until the status changed15:43
saggiWhoever calls is responsible for tracking15:43
zhonghua-lees/it/it is15:43
saggizhonghua-lee: Even if it fails the scheduled op needs to log it.15:44
zhonghua-leesaggi:but the number is not correct15:45
chenzengzhonghua-lee:we can ignore the checkpoint which is created this time, just make sure the success checkpoint will not exceed 3.15:45
zhonghua-leecheckpoint number15:45
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saggiof course15:45
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xiangxinyongso it seems like whoever it invokes "createcheckpoint" will check the checkpoint amount?15:46
zhonghua-leechenzeng: you mean we only care about the chenckpoints model numbers15:46
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zhonghua-leeok, I agree15:47
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saggiI'm not sure that manual checkpoints should count. But this is a matter of policy.15:47
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saggiIn any case, it has to be done in the operation engine. And the details are policy dependent :).15:48
zhonghua-leelet me think it over15:48
zhonghua-leesaggi: thanks15:48
saggi#topic Mark the source of checkpoint data15:49
*** openstack changes topic to "Mark the source of checkpoint data (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:49
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saggiThis puts us back with the suggestion of having user defined MD on the checkpoints.15:49
saggiIt's fine by me as long as it can only be set on checkpoint creation and can't be modified.15:50
xiangxinyongchenying sumbit this topic.15:50
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zhonghua-leeI think it's just for record15:50
saggiThis means that scheduled operations can just add an MD key ("CHECKPOINT_SOURCE": "SCHEDULED_OPERATION-123")15:50
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xiangxinyongsaggi: like that.15:51
saggiIf it doesn't have this we can assume it was manual or some other source that doesn't wish to identify.15:51
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saggisimilar to custom volume MD in cinder15:51
xiangxinyongadd a parameter in the createcheckpoint interface15:52
xiangxinyongCHECKPOINT_SOURCE: Scheduled/Now15:52
saggiwe just add the ability to add any user metadata.15:52
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saggiand use the convention for 'smaug-checkpoint-source' to mark the source15:53
saggiif it's missing we assume manual since the scheduled operation will add it15:53
saggiand we would recommend other tools to add their own name in the entry15:53
saggiwe need a proper blueprint for this though15:53
saggiI'll write one tomorrow.15:54
zhonghua-leesaggi: +115:54
saggiWe could comment on that.15:54
xiangxinyongok. we could add the checkpoint source into metadata15:54
saggiWe'll continue this on the blueprint when I put it up.15:55
xiangxinyongsaggi: thanks15:55
saggi#topic open discussion15:55
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:55
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saggixyang1: You had something you wanted to discuss15:55
xyang1saggi: yes15:55
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xyang1saggi: about the discussions on cinder replication spec15:56
xyang1saggi: We talked about it at our mid cycle last week15:56
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xyang1so the suggestion is fir smaug team to submit another spec about this requirement15:57
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saggixyang1: Instead of the current one?15:57
xyang1also we like to have an irc meeting to discuss15:57
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saggixyang1: Sure, do you want to do it on the Cinder weekly spot or should we do it out of band?15:58
xyang1saggi: the one I am working on is cinder replication group, you should submit another spec on hide namespace15:58
saggixyang1: Sure15:58
xyang1saggi: we could probably add an item to cinder meeting15:58
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xyang1saggi: if it runs over, we can schedule a separate one to follow up15:59
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saggiI could try and have something ready for tomorrow's IRC15:59
saggiIt's not complicated15:59
xyang1can you add an item to the meeting, I can add it too16:00
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xyang1saggi: ?16:01
zhonghua-leetime out.16:01
chenyingI have a problom with my network.16:01
* saggi is looking for the meeting wiki16:01
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saggiFound it16:02
saggixyang1: I'll add it now and update tomorrow with an etherpad link for the first bp draft16:02
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saggixyang1: So we'll pick it up tomorrow16:03
xiangxinyonggood night16:04
saggiGoof meeting16:04
saggiThanks everybody16:04
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:04
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 26 16:04:26 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:04
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-07-26-15.01.html16:04
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-07-26-15.01.txt16:04
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-07-26-15.01.log.html16:04
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mmedvede#startmeeting third-party17:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 26 17:00:20 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mmedvede. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'17:00
mmedvedehi there, anyone around for third-party WG meeting?17:00
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mmedvedenothing on agenda today17:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:08
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 26 17:08:27 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:08
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-07-26-17.00.html17:08
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-07-26-17.00.txt17:08
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-07-26-17.00.log.html17:08
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topol I didnt get the ping18:00
lbragstadping ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gagehugo, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, jaugustine, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, MaxPC, morgan, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek18:00
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stevemarno one did yet topol :O18:01
stevemar#startmeeting keystone18:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 26 18:01:14 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:01
topolits like the resistance killed the ping18:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:01
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stevemartopol: spies 4 life18:01
stevemaragenda https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:01
ayounganything to discuss since everyone scooted early from the Midcycle?18:01
stevemarthanks everyone for coming to the midcycle!18:02
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lbragstadthanks cburgess for helping host!18:02
stevemarand notmorgan for organizing :)18:02
cburgessSure no problem18:02
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topol+++ Thanks cburgess18:02
ayounganyone care if I clear authorship colors from the Agenda? Hard to read as is18:02
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ayoungcburgess, thanks so much!18:03
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stevemarayoung: you can change a setting in etherpad so you don't see colors18:03
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stevemardolphm already posted a summary of the retrospective: http://dolphm.com/retrospective-on-openstack-midcycles/18:03
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stevemari'll be posting a summary on big topics18:03
topolgood job dolphm18:03
stevemarbut if you could not attend, then check out https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-newton-midcycle18:03
henrynashan excellent midcycle18:04
lbragstadayoung under the settings wheel select/deselect authorship colors.18:04
stevemarits got pretty decent notes18:04
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dolphmhoping other projects find it useful, and we learn something in return18:04
bknudsonhopefully we'll remember to look at it for the next midcycle.18:04
bknudsonmaybe we need a checklist.18:04
stevemarbknudson: definitely18:04
gyeenice summary18:04
dolphmbknudson: i thought about structuring it that way - it's not far off18:04
stevemarespecially for organizers18:05
* rodrigods has a lot to catch up18:05
lbragstads/bullet points/check boxes/18:05
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stevemarfirst topic coming up18:05
dolphmi found it'd be too tempting to lose the "why's" if i went straight to a checklist18:05
stevemar#topic nasty bugs that need triaging and fixing before we release18:05
*** openstack changes topic to "nasty bugs that need triaging and fixing before we release (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:05
samueldmqhi all18:05
topoldolphm the justifications are very helpful18:05
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lbragstaddolphm topol agreed18:06
stevemarbug 1606426, bug 1604479, bug 1602407, and bug 160039318:06
openstackbug 1606426 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Upgrading to Mitaka casues significant slow down on user-list " [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1606426 - Assigned to Ron De Rose (ronald-de-rose)18:06
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openstackbug 1604479 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "tenantId/default_project_id missing on Keystone service user in Mitaka" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1604479 - Assigned to Kam Nasim (knasim-wrs)18:06
openstackbug 1602407 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "MySQL tests significantly slower than PostgreSQL tests" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160240718:06
openstackbug 1600393 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "AttributeError: 'list' object has no attribute 'items'" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160039318:06
bretoni am investigating 160642618:06
stevemari did a preliminary review of open bugs and those were nasty ones18:06
dolphmthose all sound pretty bad18:06
stevemarthanks breton18:06
crinkle1602407 i don't think is a keystone issue18:06
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stevemarany one else want to jump on one (if you're not busy with reviews/features)?18:07
stevemarcrinkle: yeah, thanks for looking into that one18:07
dstanekthe mysql vs. postgres sounds like an interesting one, but is it keystone specific?18:07
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stevemardstanek: see crinkle's comment ^ :)18:07
crinkledstanek: i don't believe so, i saw the same thing running the nova tests18:07
ayoung "MySQL tests significantly slower than PostgreSQL tests"  so we are going to swtich to Postgres?18:07
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dolphmcrinkle: should it be marked as incomplete or invalid?18:07
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ayoungMySQL is a bug?18:07
bknudsonit's possible that the live tests are doing something wrong in the setup18:08
stevemardolphm: maybe incomplete for now? i'd like to see if clarkb has any other comments on it18:08
dstanekcrinkle: could it be a misuse of certain features in our code or is it truly the db?18:08
bknudsonlike not re-using the database or something18:08
dstaneki wouldn't mark it as invalid until we know why it's a problem18:08
crinkledolphm: probably yes but i'm not sure which project it should be filed under18:08
crinkledstanek: i think it's the db connector engine18:08
samueldmqbknudson: good point18:09
stevemarcrinkle: oslo.db and nova would be good starts18:09
stevemarsince we know nova is also affected18:09
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stevemaranyone know Kam from bug 1604479 ?18:09
openstackbug 1604479 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "tenantId/default_project_id missing on Keystone service user in Mitaka" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1604479 - Assigned to Kam Nasim (knasim-wrs)18:09
dstanekcrinkle: can you document in the bug how you came to that conclusion so i can duplicate?18:09
crinkledstanek: i did18:09
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dstanekcrinkle: cool, thanks. i'll take a look today then18:09
henrynashstevemar: so I conversed with him a bit on that18:10
gyeehenrynash, is that bug reproducible?18:10
henrynashstevemar: I think the issues is that the services users weren't created with default projects18:10
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rodrigodscrinkle, great investigation, btw18:11
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crinklerodrigods: ty18:12
henrynashstevemar, gyee: and (perhaps) with how we now map v2 from v3, there is a comment saying don;t but tennatID attribute in the entity if the value of devault projet is None18:12
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gyeehenrynash, we don't touch the default_project_id, even with local user migration18:12
dolphmrderose: have you looked at that bug?18:12
ayoungis it possible that the "user" table is conflicting with something in Postgresql?18:13
stevemarhenrynash: if the service wasn't created with a default project that's fine, but if he had data there then it should still work and have been migrated18:13
henrynashgyee: I don't think there is anything wrong with our migration18:13
dolphmayoung: we've always had a user table18:13
ayoungthat bug report looks suspiciously like postgres is executing a view when doing select * from user;18:13
gyeeI am very confused by the bug description, especially comment #818:13
ayoungdolphm, I know, and I think that user is a reserved word in postgres.18:14
stevemarall, we don't have to diagnose them all *here* :)18:14
rderosedolphm: I did briefly, but as henrynash says, I think the issue was that the services weren't created with a default project18:14
stevemarit was more of a call to action :)18:14
dolphmayoung: yeah, the final query makes no sense in the context of a keystone db18:14
rderosedefault_project_id remained in the user table; wasn't moved18:14
dolphmrderose: they should still have the attribute in the API though18:14
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rderosedolphm: true, I was going to look at it further, but already assigned to Kam, who said he had a solution18:14
stevemari can get jamie to diagnose the last one since it's probably middleware or auth related :P18:15
rderosedolphm: was waiting on him18:15
henrynashgyee, stevemar: I'll drive resolution on https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/160447918:15
openstackLaunchpad bug 1604479 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "tenantId/default_project_id missing on Keystone service user in Mitaka" [Critical,New] - Assigned to Kam Nasim (knasim-wrs)18:15
stevemarrderose: kam seems afk, don't wait too long if it's a critical bug18:15
stevemarrderose ^ thanks henrynash18:15
stevemarrderose: you got a lot on your plate already :P18:15
rderosestevemar :) you keep saying that18:15
gyeehenrynash, go get'em tiger!18:16
stevemarand you keep adding to it18:16
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stevemarrderose: glutton for punishment!18:16
dstanek/ join #plugdj18:16
stevemardstanek is a DJ in his spare time18:16
dstaneklol, sorry!18:16
bknudsondstanek is bored.18:16
stevemarbknudson: ++18:16
rderosestevemar: call me what you want, but at least I'm not a cheater!18:16
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stevemar#topic keep plugging away with code reviews for new features18:17
*** openstack changes topic to "keep plugging away with code reviews for new features (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:17
stevemar#link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/newton-318:17
dstanekrderose: are you sure?18:17
rderosedstanek: not really18:17
stevemarmost of the BPs are in good shape18:17
stevemaranyone want to deprecate something in newton before i mark the BP as implemented?18:17
samueldmqwhen is n3 happening ? just to state it here in the meeting18:18
samueldmqstevemar: ^18:18
stevemarAug 29-02R-5     newton-3 milestone18:18
lbragstadAug 29 - Sept 0218:18
bretonpff, still a month to go18:18
stevemarwe also need to add henrynash's migrate complete stuff18:18
samueldmqstevemar: lbragstad thanks!18:18
stevemarbreton: it'll fly by :)18:18
dstanekstevemar: nothing specific that i want to deprecate, but i'd be more than happy to review deprecations if we have them18:18
stevemardstanek: all existing ones are merged18:19
stevemari'll mark it as complete18:19
gyeedeprecate the mongo dogpile backend if we haven't already18:19
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stevemarso if you're looking for stuff to review, those are always available18:19
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stevemargyee: that'll be an oslo change, bug them18:19
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gyeestevemar, sure18:20
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stevemar#topic one last review for migrate complete18:20
*** openstack changes topic to "one last review for migrate complete (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:20
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stevemari think this is ready: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/337680/18:20
dstanekgyee: i think ours can be deleted now18:20
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gyeedstanek, yes18:20
xekstevemar, I just posted a comment on the spec18:20
stevemardstanek: it's just an entry point, check the existing warning, i dont remember when it was changed18:21
stevemarxek: what was the comment?18:21
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stevemarnooo -118:21
dstanekstevemar: deprecated in M and to be removed in +118:21
stevemardstanek: there ya go, reference removed-as-of-newton18:21
xekstevemar, I think there is a problem, where some instances can read outdated data in the scenario outlined in the spec18:22
stevemarhenrynash: xek has some comments18:22
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henrynashxex: ok, I'll look18:22
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dstanekxek: yes, that is a good point you brought up18:23
xekadding a step in between will fix it, I hope it doesn't get too complicated18:23
stevemarxek: would you consider your comment a stopper or can we start implementation now (i think we can based on my understand of it)18:23
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samueldmqthat should be a minor update in the spec18:24
rodrigodssamueldmq, ++18:24
samueldmqand just adpt it in the implementation18:24
xekI think we can start implementing it, the spec is somewhat high level, the devils are always in the details18:25
henrynashxek: always!18:25
stevemarokay, unless someone has something against the idea now, i'll approve the next revision18:25
dstanekbasically that means that release n will read and write from both columns and only in release n+1 can we actually just use the new column?18:25
samueldmqbut this is conceptual, I believe the spec could be easily updated18:25
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samueldmqhenrynash: ^ just fixing a sentence/paragraph? :)18:26
bknudsonhaving to keep columns around for an entire release isn't going to work for us since we're releasing from master.18:26
samueldmqstevemar: want us to merge it this week right ?18:26
xekdstanek, it can still be done in one release, but there would be to changes of the configuration / data compatibility mode18:26
* ayoung has to check out soon (double booked on meetings) but will leave client up and will field any questions directed at /me in #openstack-keystone18:26
henrynashstevemar, xek: and of course we don't support on-the-fly migration in N anyway, but it woul dbe good to get the sequence correct18:26
xek*two changes18:26
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dstanekxek: that means that all keystones would need to get the new configuration at the exact same time right?18:27
stevemarxek henrynash thanks18:27
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henrynashbknudson: I am absolutely goingto make sure this lets someone run close to master and still do rolling upgrades18:27
xekdstanek, if there is that additional step of writing to both columns and reading from the new one, then no18:27
samueldmqdstanek: good point. update config/restart service consistently18:27
dstaneksamueldmq: not so sure it's just a sentence change. i at least want to look at the spec again with this new information18:27
samueldmqdstanek: okay. agree it's worth it to take a look at it again as a whole to make sure it looks correct18:28
dstanekwho is going to make the update?18:28
stevemardstanek: henrynash volunteered18:29
henrynashstevemar: yep, down to me18:29
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stevemardstanek: give it a once over when it's updated18:29
dstanekcoolio... henrynash can you kick me when you get it done so i can have a peek18:29
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stevemarmay i recommend a poke rather than a kick18:29
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henrynashdstanek: absolutely18:30
stevemar#topic MFA = password + TOTP18:30
*** openstack changes topic to "MFA = password + TOTP (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:30
stevemarthis is a fun topic...18:30
henrynash(poke with toe extended)18:30
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stevemargyee: you're up18:30
gyeeI like the MFA patch, an elegant solution18:30
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gyeeproblem is how do we make it backward compatible18:30
gyeewe have two options as commented in the review18:31
bknudsonit's opt-in, right?18:31
gyeebknudson, opt-in can be done in two different ways18:31
gyee1) do not set a totp credential18:31
stevemarbknudson: sort of?18:31
gyee2) explicitly configure the passwordtotp plugin18:31
gyeeI like 2) for a number of reasons18:32
gyee1) we save an extra roundtrip to the backend for credential lookup18:32
stevemargyee: i think it should be it's own incase the authenticator gets broken or some nonsense18:32
bknudsonconfiguring passwordtotp means that using methods: ["password"] does password:totp?18:32
dstaneki also like #2, but i would make it MFAPlugin so you can configure it to use any other plugins, not just password and totp18:33
bknudsonor do I have to do methods: ["passwordtotp"]18:33
gyeebknudson, just "password"18:33
gyeeso we don't have to change the clients18:33
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gyeeno need for another plugin on the client side18:33
bknudsonbut then every user has to do totp, right?18:34
stevemarnot changing the clients would make adoption easier18:34
bknudsonlike service users?18:34
stevemarbknudson: nope18:34
lbragstadwell - don't the clients have to append the totp?18:34
dstaneklbragstad: yes18:34
stevemarbknudson: there will be a check to see if the authenticated user *has* any TOTP credentials18:34
lbragstadso there is a client change required18:34
gyeebknudson, no, it is teeing off on the credential lookup18:34
stevemarbknudson: if no credentials, then regular password18:34
bknudsonoh, it still does credential lookup18:34
dstanekbknudson: if you have a totp secret it would force you to use it18:35
gyeeonly users have a totp credential will be participate in totp18:35
stevemarif it has credentials, then it'll do password then passcode (totp)18:35
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bknudsonthe credential lookup needs to be optional otherwise that's going to slow down token issue.18:35
gyeebknudson, right, that's why I suggested option #218:35
stevemarthats another aspect18:35
gyeemake the plugin explicit18:35
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stevemargyee: okay, i think we need to go with #218:35
stevemarit'll be more "opt-in" like that18:36
gyeestevemar, alllrighty then18:36
stevemarwe'll need to create a new auth plugin :(18:36
gyeestevemar, no, even #2 does not require client-side changes18:36
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lbragstadis that a bad thing?18:36
stevemargyee: how so?18:36
gyeejust keystone.conf changes18:36
stevemarlbragstad: would be nice to be able to do it out of box18:36
gyeepassword = PasswordTOTP18:37
stevemargyee: that'll make it for the whole cloud18:37
bknudsonis there going to be a keystoneauth plugin, also?18:37
lbragstadgyee the clients need to know how to append the totp to the password18:37
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gyeestevemar, no, still toggle on the totp credential18:37
lbragstadi thought in order for people to use the new feature, they'd need a new client that supports totp18:37
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stevemarlbragstad: check the patch, you'll see why18:38
gyeelbragstad, no, on the client side, just <passcode> + <password>18:38
gyeebknudson, no client-side changes needed18:38
lbragstadoh - so the user just passes that *as* the password and the plugin doesn't concatenate them...18:38
gyeethe magic happens at the server side18:39
dstanekso with this in play users will have to do something different than they do now and we should document that18:39
bknudsonthe password keystoneauth plugin is going to be useless, it will try to refresh the token with the old totp value.18:39
gyeedstanek, we should document the behavior18:39
stevemardstanek: only if they have totp credentials18:39
lbragstadbknudson yeah - that would be a problem18:39
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gyeebknudson, yes, token refresh will be a bit problematic18:39
clarkbis there a plan for how keystoneauth will reup tokens using this?18:40
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gyeebut for MFA, we never have a good solution for token refresh anyway18:40
lbragstadtoken refresh will have to be user initiated...18:40
topolbknudson great catch!18:40
dstanekstevemar: agreed. as a user though it may be confusing?18:40
bknudsonif the auth plugin had the key it could generate a new totp value.18:40
lbragstadwell - token refresh and automation in general gets harder with more than one factor18:40
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gyeeremember, totp is not really intended for non-interactive users18:40
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stevemarthis is all ocata work anyway18:41
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lbragstadglad we're having the discussion early though18:41
gyeestevemar, we can't sneak it in? :(18:41
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samueldmqhow will this affect other libraries like horizon auth lib ?18:41
dstanekgyee: noooo!18:41
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topolgyee, what could go wrong???18:42
gyeenothing could go wrong18:42
stevemargyee: not a chance :P18:42
topoldeath or glory gyee in the house18:42
gyeeit works, guaranteed18:42
stevemargyee: unless you've proven that you've thought of all the edge cases18:42
lbragstad(famous last words)?18:42
bknudsonyou can deploy the plugin internallly and tell us how it goes.18:42
topolif I had a dime everytime I heard that...18:42
gyeeI only use the 80/20 rule18:43
gyeewhen it comes to design18:43
stevemargyee: just upgrade weekly like bknudson does18:43
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stevemargyee: next topic?18:43
gyeethat's all I have18:43
dstanek80% this should work, 20% close enough18:43
stevemarwe didn't end on anything here18:43
stevemar#topic should PCI-DSS lockout include LDAP18:44
*** openstack changes topic to "should PCI-DSS lockout include LDAP (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:44
stevemarrderose: ^18:44
gyeeI thought we are going with #218:44
rderoseThe lockout feature locks out a user after x number of failed auth attempts. Currently, it's specific to the SQL backend driver for identity. However, we've had a request to include LDAP as well.18:44
rderoseThe idea being that a user is locked out of keystone, but not locked out of all corporate systems.18:44
rderoseLDAP services typically do have a lockout policy, but doesn't allow you to only lockout a specific application.18:44
stevemarrderose: selfishly, this is not my problem :P18:44
rderoseexactly ;)18:44
shalehrderose: how hard is it to make it an option?18:44
rderoseI'm on the side of not adding LDAP, as the LDAP lockout is expected behavior, but want to hear your thoughts.18:44
shalehI can see some wanting and some not18:44
dstanekgyee: stevemar: yes, #2 with docs on how users must change, token refresh issues and other corner cases18:44
rderoseshaleh: not hard18:45
gyeedstanek, amen, brother!18:45
topolit was stakeholder requested by AT&T18:45
shalehrderose: I have worked with real hard cases that insist on locking early and often :-)18:45
topolso its causing real pain18:45
stevemardstanek: gyee theres a spec out there for the mfa stuff, comment on the spec18:45
bknudsonoh, I thought this was moving it into the manager and enforcing there.18:45
gyeestevemar, yes will do18:45
bknudsonI would be fine if this was configurable in the ldap backend.18:45
shalehI think an option, disabled by default is the right path.18:46
stevemarbknudson: elaborate?18:46
dstanektopol: so they wanted a lockout shorter in openstack that didn't lockout a user from the corporate system?18:46
bknudsonI thought it was going to be a global config option so enforced on every backend18:46
gyeelockout is done at shadow user right?18:46
topolI believe the issues is through OpenStack/Keystone folks could repeatedly lock out LDAP.18:46
samueldmqif it"s in the manager, maybe have a list of backends it apply ?18:46
bknudsonbut if it was a config per backend I'd be fine with that.18:46
gyeeis that the whole point for shadow users, consistency?18:46
topoldstanek yes!18:46
lbragstadbknudson meaning that if you were to deploy an ldap backend you could opt into using the lockout provided by ldap, or choose a more strict lockout through keystone config18:46
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dstanektopol: isn't that why corporate locks exist?18:47
topolkeystone lockout ok, LDAP lockout bit corp headach18:47
topolmust have been happening too much initiated from OpenStack18:47
dstanekit's no different then the user using the wrong password (or getting attacked) on their email...i'm surprised they care18:47
gyeelockout is a *keystone* policy18:47
bknudsonlbragstad: yes, I agree with that.18:48
brownethe ldap server may already have a lockout configured18:48
rderoselbragstad bknudson: in that case, why not just enforce lockout for SQL and LDAP18:48
topolwe can go back and ask Tan from AT&T to explain the diff18:48
stevemartopol: so our internal messaging system relies on our LDAP, if i log into that thing 10x i'll be locked out of my corporate credentials too.18:48
lbragstadright - so the only case that would make sense would be to set keystone's lockout to a smaller value than the corp system18:48
stevemartopol: we don't change it there18:48
lbragstadotherwise its going to be confusing user experience18:48
dstanektopol: did they publish their usecase?18:48
henrynashlbragstad: the LDAP corpaorte lockout will happen on not depending on the config of LDAP, we can't opt in/out of that....we could only augment with a keystone if we chose to allow you to opt in to that18:49
topoldstanek. dont think so. just discussed at midcycle18:49
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stevemarlamt: did the login happen with the CLI or horizon?18:49
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lbragstadhenrynash right18:49
stevemarmaybe this is an issue with branding or lack of docs about what credentials to use?18:49
lamtthe use case we have, not published, is that using keystone, we can send incorrect credential to LDAP, so the LDAP lockout policy kicks in18:50
lamtand locks the users out of the corporate LDAP18:50
stevemarbut ... if i'm logging into something with "stevemar@ca.ibm.com" << i *know* i better use my corporate password18:50
dstaneklamt: do you'd have a more stick keystone lockout policy?18:50
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rderosehenrynash lbragstad: all PCI is opt-in, but don't think we need a separate config for SQL and LDAP18:50
stevemarthis is outside of PCI18:50
dstanekfor instance, ldap locks after 5 tries and keystone after 4...18:50
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bknudsonbeing more strict or not doesn't make much sense... if you allow 10 for keystone and 11 for ldap there might be 5 invalid ldap attempts already from another app.18:51
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dstanekbknudson: yep, it only helps you in the case where there are no pending bad logins18:51
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lamtit is true that there may be bad pending logins from other application18:52
lbragstadthis feels a little like the PCI implementation from SQL is bleeding into LDAP18:52
stevemarlbragstad: thing is, it's independent of pci18:52
rderosefor PCI though, LDAP has a lockout policy, whereas SQL doesn't currently18:53
lbragstadaccount lockouts are pci, right?18:53
stevemarif i setup an ldap now, i can toast my corporate credentials18:53
browneif your ldap server already has lockout policy, don't know why you want one in keystone too18:53
samueldmqbtw, do we show useful messages in keystone side if there is a ldap-side lockout ?18:53
rderoselbragstad: right18:53
dstanekstevemar: ...but is it? we only implemented this is get SQL update for PCI compliance18:53
lbragstad PCI-DSS 8.1.6: Limit repeated access attempts by locking out the user18:53
lbragstadID after not more than 6 attempts.18:53
dstaneksamueldmq: probably not18:53
brownesamueldmq: ++ good question18:53
dstaneksamueldmq: at best we can show the message we got and i have no idea what that would be18:54
brownehonor the ldap policy and expose the proper error messages IMO18:54
gyeePCI is application-specific, not backend-specific right?18:54
stevemarbrowne: ++18:54
samueldmqquestion is whether we support pci in keystone regardless backend vs backend specific (sql)18:54
dstanekbrowne: ++ agreed18:54
samueldmqwhat was our primary decision?18:54
bknudsonthere's no question about honoring the ldap policy. there's no way to override it.18:54
stevemarsamueldmq: we stated that its SQL only18:54
samueldmqdstanek: ++18:55
lbragstadthe main reason for the PCI work was so that keystone would have a somewhat PCI compliant backend out of the box18:55
dstaneksamueldmq: we support being PCI compliant, but the organization still have work to do. nothing is compliant out of the box18:55
samueldmqstevemar: got it. who has the usecase? perhaps we should hear more why it is needed. and if it really is18:55
bknudsonalthough I think we might have had problems with honoring ldap policy in the past when cn=admin was used.18:55
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brownebknudson: well, i can imagine wonky states where keystone user is locked but the ldap user backing it was already unlocked18:55
stevemarlbragstad: right18:55
samueldmqdstanek: ++18:55
stevemarbrowne: right18:56
bknudsonhow do you unlock the locked ldap user?18:56
jaugustine_Hey sorry in a physical meeting too. the issue was raised that keystone could be used to query ldap and lockout users18:56
dstanekunless there is a clear usecase i think we should move on....18:56
bknudsonalso, we'd have to store ldap user data in sql.18:56
topolbknudson doughnut bribe admin18:56
brownebknudson: making a phone call to IT and complaining18:56
samueldmqdstanek: ++18:56
lbragstadbknudson you'd have to contact someone on the corp ldap team, or something like that18:56
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dstanekjaugustine_: yes, that's correct18:56
samueldmqjaugustine_: so keytone lockout users in ldap (and maybe affecting other apps ) ?18:57
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bknudsonI mean when the ldap user is locked in keystone.18:57
stevemarif we went down this route, the ldap user could be locked out of keystone, and their corp credentials; then the user would have to contact the LDAP admin to be unlocked; then the openstack admin to be enabled again18:57
gyeebknudson, go to the self-service portal and answer a few personal questions18:57
gyeebknudson, I'll send you a link18:57
bknudsonwhat's my favorite color?18:57
stevemargyee: lol18:57
bknudsonor sea animal?18:57
dstanekstevemar: it's back because you can be locked out of either or both18:57
bknudsonwe'd all pick turtle.18:57
samueldmqtopol: what's your email address and ldap address again?18:57
stevemardstanek: nope, it wouldn't be in the case of a keystone specific lock out18:58
jaugustine_We want to avoid malicious intent I believe. I can get more details18:58
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samueldmqkk gotcha, turtle as favorite animal, thanks topol18:58
dstanekjaugustine_: do you do the same with other applications? like webmail, etc?18:58
stevemarjaugustine_: sure, but you can lock out lamt by trying to log into *any* application as him :P18:58
stevemarjaugustine_: you just don't do it, cause you're a nice fella18:59
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dstanekstevemar: you could be locked out of keystone and not ldap, vice versa, or even both - so not you have to determine who you need to talk to18:59
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samueldmqstevemar: and that seems like we would be writting something to ldap, which is something we don't want anymore18:59
rderosebknudson: we already store ldap data in SQL, we shadow ldap users as well18:59
stevemari gotta stop now, have to run to dentist18:59
stevemarthanks all18:59
stevemargood discussion18:59
rderosedstanek: ++19:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 26 19:00:04 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-07-26-18.01.html19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-07-26-18.01.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-07-26-18.01.log.html19:00
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rderosewhat was the conclusion?19:00
fungiwho's around for an infra meeting?19:00
lbragstadhead to #openstack-keystone rderose19:00
dstaneklamt: jaugustine_: please document a usecase :-)19:00
lamtwill do19:00
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fungitoday's topics courtesy of Zara, SotK, anteaya, markus_z, fungi, pleia2, pabelanger, zaro19:00
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anteayaI'm here19:01
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corvustoo many people to count19:02
anteayaha ha ha19:02
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fungi#startmeeting infra19:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 26 19:03:08 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:03
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:03
fungi#topic Announcements19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
pleia2I was interviewed for the Super User blog, talked about us some, hoping to raise visibility again of the fact that support for our team is essential to openstack: http://superuser.openstack.org/articles/why-infrastructure-is-the-key-to-openstack-s-big-tent19:03
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fungipleia2: thanks for your tireless efforts marketing us! ;)19:03
anteayapleia2: thank you19:04
corvuspleia2: cool!19:04
fungii haven't read it yet, but it's probably way better than my superuser interview19:04
bkeroGood stuff, thanks pleia219:04
prometheanfirenice :D19:04
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fungi#info Reminder: late-cycle joint Infra/QA get together to be held September 19-21 (CW38) in at SAP offices in Walldorf, DE19:04
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/QAInfraNewtonSprint19:04
clarkbwe have started the xenial as default test platform switchover19:04
fungioh, good one19:05
clarkbhad a minor issue getting job + branch selection correct for openstack-ansible which we fixed19:05
clarkbno one else has screamed19:05
fungii should start having people submit announcements to me (or add them to the agenda) ahead of time19:05
clarkbso uh if you have time/interest feel free to help write chagnes to switch us over19:05
bkeroclarkb: is that for stable releases as well, or are those in-time?19:05
clarkbbkero: no stable remains on trusty so we roll forward on xenial19:05
anteayafungi: that sounds reasonable19:05
bkeroSo once newton is cut it will be xenial, then o, etc19:05
fungiwe could discuss this (xenial testing) under the priority efforts if there's a lot of questions19:06
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fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:06
fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-19-19.02.html19:06
fungipleia2 Submit a spec to host an instance of limesurvey19:06
fungii didn't see one in review... keep for next week?19:06
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pleia2it's half written, I'll finish it before friday (when I am traveling)19:06
fungi#action pleia2 Submit a spec to host an instance of limesurvey19:06
fungiright on19:07
fungi#topic Specs approval19:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:07
funginone new this week19:07
fungi#topic Priority Efforts: A Task Tracker for OpenStack (Zara, SotK, anteaya, markus_z)19:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: A Task Tracker for OpenStack (Zara, SotK, anteaya, markus_z) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:07
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fungithere was interest from markus_z in specifying a minimum warning period (maybe one month?) between tc acceptance and migration date19:07
fungianybody think this is unreasonable to add to the spec?19:07
SotKI think its sensible19:08
anteayaI do not think it is unreasonable19:08
ZaraI'm fine with it :)19:08
fungibasically providing some stability for the community to finish up tool rewrites that were using the lp api so that they work with sb19:08
fungiwithout the api risking changing out from under them19:08
pleia2makes sense19:08
fungianteaya: are you up for writing that spec patch?19:09
fungijust adding a sentence will do19:09
anteayasure I will do so19:09
fungiwe ideally would do some widespread announcement to the community once the tc accepts the migration plan anyway19:09
anteayaoh yes19:09
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anteayacurrently in talking to stakeholders19:10
anteayanext step is tc19:10
fungiso just stating that there would be a minimum of one month from that until the actual migration or something19:10
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fungiin reality i expect it will end up being well more than a month regardless19:10
anteayapart of getting it on the tc agenda involves a post to the ml19:10
anteayaI also think it will be well more than a month19:10
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anteayabut don't see any harm in stating a one month minimum19:11
fungiokay, anything else we need to cover on this effort in the meeting?19:11
anteayato ally fears19:11
anteayanot from me19:11
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SotKnor me19:11
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fungiclarkb: bkero: did you need me to squeeze the "Newton testing on Xenial" effort into today's agenda or were your questions basically addressed during the announcements?19:11
clarkbI am good, but could use volunteers to help write teh changes likely19:13
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clarkbsince I am traveling next week and much of the week after anddon't expect to have consistent internets19:13
bkerofungi: I'm good19:13
clarkbso uh ping me if you can help19:13
fungii expect those volunteers will come out of the woodwork anyway19:13
bkeroclarkb: what changes are you referring to?19:13
clarkbbkero: the changes to project-config that switch jobs to run on xenial19:13
bkeroGot it, thanks.19:14
fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Newton testing on Xenial (clarkb)19:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Newton testing on Xenial (clarkb) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:14
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fungi#info Volunteers needed to draft project-config changes to switch more jobs to run on xenial19:14
clarkbbasically just need to update jjb and zuul togetehr to switch things, there are a few examples up and merged now19:14
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bkeroo/ I'll see if I can help out with that this week.19:14
fungithanks clarkb, bkero!19:14
clarkbbecause we decided to go explicit in the config its not a single 90 line python script we are modifying so lots of typing typing19:14
clarkbbkero: thanks19:14
fungi#topic Infra mascot/logo (fungi)19:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Infra mascot/logo (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:15
bkerotyping typing typing and much seddings19:15
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/infra-mascot-ideas Infra mascot/logo ideas19:15
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fungilooks like we have a bunch more now19:15
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fungiare we all set for me to do a civs poll so we can rank preferences?19:15
fungishould i send ballots to the ptl electorate for infra?19:15
fungior limit it to council members?19:15
clarkbfungi: there is a deadline for tomorrow I think? so we better be ready?19:16
fungiyeah, i've talked to heidijoy about it19:16
clarkbI would let everyone interested vote on it19:16
anteayaon the voting does the top item win?19:16
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anteayalike if everything gets one vote and one thing gets 2 votes, does it win?19:16
fungiwe need fallback choices in case of conflicts either within or (in some situations) outside the community19:16
clarkbwhich is why you wanted to use civs which I think makes sense19:17
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fungiso a condorcet ranking is a sane way to do that fairly, yes19:17
fungii'll send ballots to our ptl electorate then and any of them who care can register their preferences19:17
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fungihow long would make sense to leave it open? one week?19:18
anteayamax one week19:18
pleia2sounds good to me19:18
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clarkbassuming thats fine with heidi that seems like a good time period19:18
anteayaI think most folks will vote in 3 days19:18
fungiokay, i'll get that going right after the meeting, making it 6 days so i can close it before next week's meeting19:18
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fungi#action fungi start a poll for infra mascot19:18
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pleia2thanks fungi19:18
fungi#topic Contributor survey (pleia2)19:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Contributor survey (pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:19
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/infra-newton-contrib-survey Contributor survey draft19:19
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pleia2not much new here, thanks to people who chimed in on the pad19:19
funginext steps?19:19
pleia2once we have a survey server up I'll put the questions in it19:19
fungiahh, right-o19:19
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pleia2we can likely chat about it again before we announce it19:19
fungisounds good. can come off the agenda for now i guess?19:20
pleia2yes, thanks19:20
fungiand you'll readd it once we're close19:20
* pleia2 nods19:20
fungipabelanger: are you back yet?19:20
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fungii'll reorder these two topics to give pabelanger a chance to get back to his computer19:21
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fungi#topic Gerrit 2.11.4 updates (zaro)19:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit 2.11.4 updates (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:21
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fungilooks like we have several fixes merged, a couple still under review19:21
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zaroso it's been a while since we updated gerrit19:21
zaroi thought i would see what we are interested in updating.19:21
fungiyep, as we discussed a few weeks ago, this seems like a good idea19:21
anteayawhat would be involved in updating?19:22
zarothe gson update is needed for storyboard plugin19:22
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zaroanteaya: it means reving the version of gerrit we have on review.o.o19:22
corvuszaro: what's the deal with maven and bouncy castle?19:22
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/345540 re=nofollow spam deterrent (merged)19:22
zaroit would involve a patch to make that update19:22
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/260324 puppet code highlighting (merged)19:22
anteayazaro: right, so how much downtime, do we need db backups, what steps are we following?19:22
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/311903 fix bouncy castle lib download (merged)19:23
anteayaor just restart gerrit once patches are merged?19:23
Zara(I am watching the its-storyboard patches like an oversized hawk; thanks again for working on those)19:23
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corvusyeah that one :)19:23
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zarocorvus: the libs disappeared from the repo so we needed to update the link in gerrit. i don't know why it disappeared though19:23
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/340157 update gson lib, required for its-storyboard plugin (open)19:23
corvusdid they update that upstream too?19:23
zaroanteaya: no reindex required19:24
anteayazaro: thank you19:24
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack-infra/gerrit+branch:openstack/2.11.4 other open changes for 2.11.419:24
corvuszaro: or does upstream use a different version of bouncy castle...?19:24
zaroyes, upstream was fixed the same way19:25
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corvusok cool19:25
corvusi mean, weird, but cool.  :)19:25
zarothe first 3 changes on the infra meeting page is required, so i'm wondering about the others open changes for
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anteayazaro: the first three changes have all merged19:26
fungii would like to see https://review.openstack.org/267927 go into the next build too, as that makes our election process more transparent19:26
zaroopps i mean first 4 changes. including the open gson lib update change19:26
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/267927 Remove required access permission to list account emails19:26
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anteayafungi: that would be awesome19:27
anteayazaro: ah okay19:27
zaroi think we also wanted https://review.openstack.org/#/c/267927/ or maybe at least anteaya wanted it19:27
fungii believe that's the only remaining blocker for the revised electoral roll script to be runnable by non-gerrit-admins19:27
corvusare we okay with that from a privacy perspective?19:28
anteayazaro: yes, I fungi linked it above, and yes it would be awesome to have in19:28
zaroohh didn't fungi want this one too? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/277538/19:28
corvusi guess most emails are already publically accessible -- either as the primary account email (is displayed on most pages in the ui) or as emails to match git authors (displayed on git commits)19:28
corvusi can't think of any other cases...19:29
fungicorvus: so gerrit already makes your preferred e-mail address queryable19:29
fungithis just extends it to the additional non-preferred addresses too19:29
corvussounds good then19:29
mordredthat's what I was thinking19:29
anteayazaro: can we get a consistent topic on all the patches you want to see merged prior to the update?19:29
fungizaro: oh! right, 277538 while not necessary, will simplify the electoral roll generation script significantly19:30
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fungitakes out a lot of the current guessing around figuring out when a change actually merged19:30
zarowell ok, i conclude that we want 340157, 267927 and 277538 merged?19:30
anteayazaro: sounds fine to me19:30
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fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/277538 Append submitted info to the change REST endpoint.19:30
fungizaro: those three sound great, yes19:31
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fungianybody have a vested interest in "19:31
zarook, infra-core do your thing and i'll prep a patch for the update19:31
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fungianybody have a vested interest in "Increase default HTTP incoming connection queue" or "Init plugins' AllRequestFilters, even if they are loaded after startup"?19:31
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zaroohh, maybe this one too? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/268689/  fix javamelody plugin updates19:32
fungiis that a significant bump in javamelody featureset over what we have now?19:33
zarono changes to javamelody itself it just fixes a problem with updating the javamelody plugin while gerrit is running19:33
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zaroit's a fix to the mechanism of deploying the plugin.19:34
zaroalso i can prep a change to update on review-dev.o.o and test it out there first before we update review.o.o19:35
fungiwas it causing a problem for us, or is it likely to do so if we don't approve that backport?19:35
fungijust wondering what the impetus was for backporting that19:35
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zarocurrently if we attempt to update the javamelody plugin without restarting gerrit it won't work.19:36
fungii can't remember having done that19:36
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clarkbI thought the plugin version was tied to the war build anyways19:36
zarook, then it's probably not important.  we can just restart gerrit when updating javamelody19:36
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fungito clarkb's point, i think our current process for updating gerrit plugins has an implicit gerrit restart baked into its assumptions19:37
zaroclarkb: it is build against our fork of gerrit core but it's not packaged with the war19:37
fungiso yeah, this seems like something we can probably drop. we'll consume the fix the next time we upgrade to a newer gerrit release containing it19:37
zarook, then we should skip it.19:37
zaroi think it only failing for javamelody anyways.19:38
fungithanks. anything else you wanted to cover on gerrit upgrades in the meeting? we should likely get the outstanding changes we've identified reviewed/merged prior to scheduling an upgrade maintenance19:38
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zaroso action is to merge 340157, 267927 and 277538 ?19:39
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zarocool, that's it.19:39
fungi#info We want 340157, 267927 and 277538 merged before we schedule a production Gerrit upgrade maintenance19:39
zaroohh do we need to identify a date?19:40
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Info object at 0x7f5bbfd22550>19:40
fungi#agreed We want 340157, 267927 and 277538 merged before we schedule a production Gerrit upgrade maintenance19:40
fungiwanted to make that an agreement, not an info19:40
fungizaro: we can probably leave scheduling for after those changes merge. it ought to be a relatively quick outage so lengthy warning announcement is probably not warranted. a few days heads up should be sufficient19:41
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fungipabelanger: are you back at your keyboard yet?19:41
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fungi#topic Release git-review (fungi)19:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Release git-review (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:42
fungigiving pabelanger a few more minutes to get back19:42
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fungii want to tag a new git-review release later this week19:43
rcarrillocruzwill that come with voting ? i.e. git review plus wip'it ?19:43
fungianybody feel like reviewing probably non-impacting open changes for any we should squeeze in?19:43
rcarrillocruzi kind of remember a change for doing that in review19:43
clarkbfungi: do you think its worth adding a note about gerrit without bouncy castle and newer git support in git-review?19:43
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack-infra/git-review open git-review changes19:43
clarkber newer ssh support19:43
clarkbI don't actually know how supporting gerrit without bouncy castle is considered19:44
zarowhat's included in that git-review release?19:44
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fungiclarkb: to the readme/manpage? probably wouldn't hurt19:44
clarkbfungi: ok I can try to write that up quickly since I know at least one other person/group was affected19:45
zarorcarrillocruz: #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/281504/19:45
fungizaro: see stuff above the 1.25.0 tag for what's already landed in master19:45
fungi#link https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/git-review/log/ git-review log19:46
rcarrillocruzoh, there you go, thx19:46
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fungircarrillocruz: we want to avoid baking openstack community gerrit configuration assumptions into git-review features, so i don't expect a "wip" feature in git-review until we have a generic way of setting wip status in gerrit19:47
zarofungi: i suggest this one, #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/285620/19:48
fungia compromise has been floated to add a feature for submitting an arbitrary review comment/vote immediately following a patchset push19:48
rcarrillocruzyeah, makes sense19:48
Kiallfungi: <drive by>add a --wip=Workflow-1 into .gitreview</drive by>19:48
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corvusnot a bad idea19:49
zarofungi: i don't understand your stament19:49
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zarois the 'wip' vote the issue?19:49
zarothat feature is generic to set any vote, not specific to wip19:50
fungizaro: proposing a git-review feature where you can ask it to submit a review comment with vote (e.g. workflow -1) when pushing a patchset19:50
zarothat feature is not specific to wip vote. you can set Code-Review vote or verified vote or any vote19:51
zaroyou can do that with gerrit itself19:51
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fungizaro: yes, this comes on the heels of prior patches proposing "wip" features to git-review where our advice was to implement what 281504 is doing19:52
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fungizaro: i was probably not being clear. 281504 makes sense, and it's a good compromise19:52
* rcarrillocruz went straight to the commit msg example and didn't realize the change is about setting whatever vote19:53
rcarrillocruzso ++19:53
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zarowe can change the example to Verified vote to ease your concern19:54
fungipabelanger: back yet?19:54
rcarrillocruzno need :P19:54
fungizaro: i don't have any concern. i'm in favor of the idea of 281504 i just haven't reviewed the implementation yet. it's on my short list now19:54
zarosounds good, and i think i've already reviewed just about all of the oustand changes.19:55
fungi#topic Open discussion19:55
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:55
fungithanks zaro, it's a huge help19:55
clarkbJust a heads up I am likely to be AFK for all of next week and much of the week after. Visiting family and they live without Internets19:55
prometheanfireI'd like to see a lesser puppet run for simpler image builds19:56
anteayaclarkb: yay a break for you19:56
anteayaclarkb: have fun19:56
fungiprometheanfire: can you elaborate?19:56
zaroclarkb: those are the family i avoid visiting :)19:56
prometheanfireadding gentoo support to all the puppet modules is becoming a real pain19:56
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fungiprometheanfire: we're trying to unpuppetize our image builds over time19:57
prometheanfireI realize that, and that'd likely help19:57
fungithis is mostly an artifact of the bad old days when we only had static job nodes and they were built the same way as our other servers19:57
clarkbzaro: I have no idea how they survive (well really I do they live on a mountain side in hawaii and don't need Internets)19:57
prometheanfireit the thing I've been stumbling on19:57
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pleia2I'm also AFK next week, conference+giving a tutorial in Mumbai and then may try to dodge rain as I attempt to tourist a bit during monsoon season19:58
anteayapleia2: yay, break for you too19:59
zaroclarkb: well, i would compromise for hawaii though :)19:59
fungipleia2: clarkb: don't get washed away!19:59
fungiwe need you back soon19:59
mtreinishclarkb: aren't the mountains in hawaii volcanoes? :)19:59
prometheanfireall that puppet needs to do with the gentoo image is create a user19:59
clarkbmtreinish: they are and its active, all good fun19:59
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fungiokay, that's it for times19:59
prometheanfireso adding support for everything else seems excessive19:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 26 20:00:04 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-26-19.03.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-26-19.03.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-26-19.03.log.html20:00
zaropleia2: yeah, lots of reviews in queue20:00
flaper87Gentle Reminder TC Meeting: annegentle dims dhellmann flaper87 johnthetubaguy mestery mtreinish thingee mordred morgan russellb sdague ttx20:00
bkeroprometheanfire: the user resource should work on Gentoo in the same way as other systems.20:00
russellberr, hi20:00
mesterylol russellb20:00
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russellboff by one error :)20:00
* dhellmann pushes russellb's keyboard a bit to the right20:00
dhellmanner ,left20:00
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* flaper87 gives some extra mins and hopes for quorum20:01
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flaper87joehuang: hi, glad to see you around20:01
* jroll says hi20:01
joehuanghi, all20:01
flaper87I know ttx and annegentle won't be around20:01
joehuangThanks to Monty and Mike for the chance to have a f2f talk in OpenStack China Days :) Hope to meet others f2f if possible, the more discussion, the better, I think all of us want to make OpenStack better:)20:02
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flaper87ok, there's our quorum20:02
flaper87#startmeeting tc20:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 26 20:02:52 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is flaper87. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:02
* rockyg slinks into the back, drinking a smoothie20:02
* edleafe tries to look cool hanging in the back20:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:02
* mordred agrees with joehuang - it was good to sit down in person ... although I have not yet produced my follow up email I said I would20:03
mordredrockyg: did you bring enough smoothies for everyone?20:03
flaper87#topic Equal Integration Chances for all Projects ( mugsie )20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Equal Integration Chances for all Projects ( mugsie ) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
flaper87#link https://review.openstack.org/34236620:03
joehuangto mordred :)20:03
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flaper87mugsie: floor is yours20:03
rockygmordred, Sure!  You like tomato/mint/berry smoothies?20:04
flaper87mugsie: if you're around, of course20:04
mugsieso, I proposed this (as a long term) way for us to move forward in the big tent20:04
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joehuangwhat's the topic now?20:04
flaper87joehuang: Equal Integration Chances for all Projects20:04
mugsieI think that if we are going to contiune in the big tent, we need to work on getting everyone equal oportunites for intergrating with horizontal teams20:04
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mugsiethere has been a few emails about the issue20:05
mugsieand some good reviews.20:05
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dhellmann#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-July/100007.html20:05
mugsieI suppose the question is if the substantive aim of the motion is something we can work towards20:05
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dhellmann#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-July/099290.html20:06
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mugsieor if it is not really something people agree with20:06
flaper87dhellmann: thanks for getting those links20:06
mugsieyeap, thanks dhellmann20:06
* mugsie should have had them ready20:06
dhellmannwere those the only 2 threads? I actually lost track of how many different threads we've had...20:06
isunilis this openstack scientific work group?20:06
mugsieI think so20:06
mtreinishdhellmann: I think it was just those 220:06
flaper87I don't disagree with the view of giving projects equal opportunities but perhaps the approach proposed in the resolution is not the right one20:06
jrollI think there was a third subject line on the tail of one of those threads20:07
dhellmannmtreinish : thanks20:07
Kiallisunil: nope20:07
flaper87Maybe a resolution itself is not the right first step forward20:07
dhellmannjroll : maybe you can find that one?20:07
* jroll looks20:07
flaper87mugsie: the issues you highlight there seem, to great extent, to be technical. Some of them (OSC) seem to be being worked on20:07
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mugsiemaybe - I am just trying to find a way forward20:07
johnthetubaguyso I like sharing the best practices between horizontal teams20:08
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jrolldhellmann: "plugins for all" -> "Equal Chances for all projects" here: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-July/100007.html20:08
dhellmannwe considered this case when we originally discussed the big tent, and we wanted to give the cross-project teams flexibility in addressing how they would work with other teams. So we said that they had to come up with something, but that something might be different for different levels of support.20:08
dhellmannjroll : thanks20:08
mugsieyes, there is bugs, and yes they are being worked on, but to try and avoid them as we grow, i think something like htis in policy is a good thing20:08
flaper87#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-July/100007.html20:08
flaper87jroll: thanks20:08
sdagueI also think that part of the intent of the big tent was to give horizontal teams the freedom to figure out what pattern works for them, which this also rolls back20:08
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mtreinishflaper87: that was dhellmann's first link :)20:08
sdaguedhellmann: right, exactly that20:09
dhellmannmost of the teams have put some sort of liaison system into place to address the coordination and contribution load issues20:09
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sdagueand the way you increase interactions between teams isn't policy, it's people stepping across fences and helping out20:09
mtreinishsdague: yes, that ++20:10
johnthetubaguysdague: +120:10
mugsieand as I have said, I will do when the skills I have can help20:10
flaper87sdague: indeed, that's why I think a resolution is not the right first step20:10
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dhellmannso unless we have a situation where a team is refusing to cooperate at all, I don't think we want to start adding more rules on top20:10
dtroyerAnd even in that case, rules are not the first resort…20:10
dhellmannmugsie : yep, your commitment isn't in question20:10
mugsiesmaller project have had rules added to them to start using some of these projects20:10
flaper87mugsie: identifying the issues is also a thing to do and you've helped there. I think highlighting those issue to each project would be a way to contribute20:10
dhellmanndtroyer : right20:10
sdaguedtroyer: agreed20:10
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johnthetubaguymaybe I missed something in the email, but mugsie where are you hitting issues?20:11
mugsietempest, docs, grenade, osc, horizon20:11
jrollmtreinish: oops on the dupe link, I was thinking the "Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)" was one of the first two mentioned20:11
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mugsieis the short list in my head from this cycle20:11
sdagueno one has to use grenade20:11
mugsiewell, if we want to say we support upgrade, we basically20:11
sdaguemy life would be easier if less people did :)20:11
KiallIt's not necessary (IMO) about increasing interaction between teams. That's never going to scale to big tent, it's, again IMO, about ensuring horizontal teams are building a core widget, which is used by the projects they support in the same way projects they don't support can use that widget.20:11
mugsie+ do20:11
dhellmannmugsie : having the cross-project teams document their expectations is to be expected. by "rules" do you mean things you consider too onerous?20:12
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mugsiedhellmann: no, it is when developers from the project I work on see and issue, try to fix itm and get a -2, saying that @$thing is not for plugins@20:12
* mugsie switches KB mapping20:12
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dhellmannKiall : all of the existing examples appear to already be doing that, to varying degrees of "finished"20:13
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mugsiedhellmann: but in each case, there is a special section that is reserved for "privaledged projects"20:13
dhellmannmugsie : that sounds like a discussion that needs to happen with the team in question, to understand how their interfaces work?20:13
dhellmannyou keep using that word, but is it really "priviledged" or is it "not yet ported"?20:13
mugsiewell, i was told to stop using core :)20:14
mordredI'm starting to have an old-grandpa moment where this is reminding me of pre-integrated release days20:14
flaper87mugsie: each team should work with you on understanding how the interface works, what solutions you have and we should go from there20:14
russellbis there a specific case we can look at?20:14
dhellmannmugsie : I understand your frustration, but you're coming at this presenting the issue as bad intent on the part of these other teams that I just don't see20:14
mugsiemordred: yup20:14
sdaguedhellmann: right, it's like when I show up to change things in oslo.context, and you tell me "well... actually you shouldn't do it this way", and I bounce off a couple of options before I find a workable one20:14
Kialldhellmann: yes, I think many are working that way, but it's so common that most of us smaller projects give up after a while and just use the APIs we aren't allowed to, or reimplement things. A formal policy helps keep this on the minds of everyone, and ensures over time we see this less and less.20:15
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sdaguebut that's just what happens when you explore into unfamiliar territory that doesn't have every use case documented out with examples20:15
Kiall(I'm on a cell, and typing real slow ;))20:15
mugsiedocs. we are told to put docs in docs.o.o/developer/<project> which is not linked from docs.o.o for users20:15
johnthetubaguyrussellb: +120:15
russellbdocs is a good example, though that issue has been specifically discussed on list20:15
dhellmannmugsie : that's changing right? loquacities has described the experimentation they're doing with install guides, for example.20:15
sdagueand, is evolving20:15
mugsiewhich in turn causes issues for adoption, which makes getting to the main docs eve harder20:15
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russellbi don't think a TC resolution helps that20:15
johnthetubaguymugsie: so thats a good specific, but I thought they are working on that20:16
mugsiein one small area20:16
jrollrandom data point: ironic has been working through some of the same issues. and it *is* difficult to understand where the boundaries are and how everything works. but with enough talking to people, we've stumbled our way through it20:16
flaper87FWIW, I think these issues are real but we should look at them individually.20:16
johnthetubaguyby they, I mean us20:16
russellbflaper87: ++20:16
flaper87We as in OpenStack/TEams and not necessarily the TC itself20:16
jrolldocs people are very focused on fixing these things, e.g. they just finished up making the install guide pluggable20:16
dhellmannno, we had a very production session in austin with the docs team getting to the point of allowing more teams to write guides using their tools. this is all in flux.20:16
mtreinishjohnthetubaguy: 'one of us' :)20:16
jrollbut they can't do everything at once, if someone wants to make it move faster, they need to jump in and help :/20:16
dhellmannjroll : does that point to a need for more documentation on those "boundaries"?20:16
sdaguejroll: right, and I think that's kind of the point. OpenStack is really big, and everyone runs into things like that when in unfamiliar teritory20:16
flaper87I don't think moving forward with a resolution will help us solving issues that, as of now, seem to be mostly technical and (hopefully) solvable20:16
sdagueflaper87: or, honestly, more social20:17
flaper87sdague: that too20:17
mugsieactually, this seems ot be a misconception - the timeline is not proposed in this motion20:17
johnthetubaguywhat jroll said, they are working on it20:17
flaper87(time check: giving this topic 4 more mins)20:17
mugsieand in no way do I think it should be in this cycle20:17
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Kiallflaper87: I think these are as much mindset as they are technical. But I've nothing to back that up bar my gut.20:17
sdaguebecause I think there seems to be an expectation that the rest of openstack is a solved problem, without realizing the whole problem space is co-evolving20:17
jrolldhellmann: maybe, it might just be us trying to go between docs and code examples (which may or may not be doing it right)20:17
mugsieif it was 1 or 2 - yes - do it on a case by case basis20:17
flaper87sdague: amen20:17
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dhellmannjroll : ok, I was looking for some sort of positive action we could recommend here20:18
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mugsiebut as it is not, is seems to be a more overarchig problem, which would (in my mind) end up in the TC space20:18
jrolldhellmann: I think as more projects adopt these pluggable things, they should help others (e.g. I sit in -qa and try to help with devstack/grenade plugin questions if I can)20:18
sdagueyeh, and jroll is super awesome with that. thanks for it.20:19
dhellmannmugsie : if we approved this resolution, what change would you expect to see as an outcome from that?20:19
jrolldhellmann: or file bugs / write docs if they aren't sufficient20:19
mugsieand thank you for that jroll - i had been banging my head on a wall for a few days when you replied20:19
dhellmannjroll : ++20:19
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jrollsdague: mugsie: :)20:19
flaper87ok, the time for this topic is almost over. I can write a summary for this discussion but I'd like to close it with an action item if possible20:20
mugsiedhellmann: as we move forward over then next (x) cycles we would move all proects to plugins (or in tree)20:20
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mugsieflaper87: I honestly don;t think we are there yet20:20
dhellmannmugsie : ok. we have in each of these cases indicated why we do not want to do that, though.20:20
sdaguemugsie: I think blanket statements like that aren't really useful20:20
flaper87Among the issues mugsie listed, can we at least identify which ones the TC can help with and which ones should be discussed with the different communities?20:20
flaper87mugsie: well, I'm not looking for a solution but a step forward for the discussion20:20
Kiall(cell phone ;))20:21
fungimugsie: i'm curious who the "we" is you're volunteering to "move all proects to plugins (or in tree)"20:21
johnthetubaguyit seems like most of the groups are working really hard on this already20:21
dhellmannmugsie : and the fact that we have those reasons, and they are different for each cross-project concern, and the solutions are therefore different, is why we did not have this "treat all projects the same way" policy to begin with20:21
johnthetubaguyis there something we can do to ask for more help, or are there specific gaps that we should highlight here?20:21
fungimugsie: it sounds like you're offering to show up with an army of new contributors to make your dream a reality20:21
mugsieand this seems weird to me. if we are oving this way already in projects, why should we not have it in policy20:21
johnthetubaguyit feels like all the key bits are moving forward right now20:21
flaper87#info we need to identify what issues are being worked on and which ones should be discussed further with the TC or other teams20:21
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dhellmannmugsie : because we are not moving to the place that your policy defines20:22
Kiallflaper87 / mugsie I'd be interested in a poll of PTLs, assessing general agreement / disagreement with mugsie's resolution. Broken down by project size etc. I imagine that will shed light on if this is really a problem, or not20:22
flaper87#action flaper87 to summarize the discussion on the review20:22
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dhellmannwe do not want all projects to be treated exactly the same way in all cases, because we want cross-project teams to have flexibility in what they sign up to "own" versus what they sign up to support others doing20:22
mugsiei can do that20:22
mugsieKiall: ^20:23
flaper87dhellmann: ++20:23
jrollKiall: it's complicated, as a PTL I agree with mugsie's problem statement ("this is really hard right now"), but not the solution20:23
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sdagueKiall: that would be fine data to collect, but I also expect you would find that everyone thinks things are a problem that are different problems20:23
johnthetubaguydhellmann: ++20:23
sdaguedhellmann: ++20:23
Kialldhellmann: agree, docs can't write everyone's docs.20:23
fungias an example, the vmt is very specific about which deliverables they support directly and which they merely provide consultation and recommendations for20:23
fungii don't think that can be changed safely/sanely20:23
dhellmannthat's another good example, fungi20:23
KiallBut they can (as a medium to long term goal, which they are doing) ensure the tooling works from projects they manage, AND projects they don't by using the same APIs for both.20:24
dhellmannthe way to solve these issues is to add more people to the *cross-project work* not just the siloed project work20:24
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fungiKiall: in the case of the vmt, that "api" is a group of people having conversations20:24
anteayadhellmann: ++20:24
sdagueKiall: sometimes, and sometimes they have to evolve things20:24
mugsiebut, the vmt will not block a project based on when it was integrated / other metrics, just on the basis of a review, which will have actionalble changes a project can do to get supprt20:24
dhellmannKiall : that is already documented as an expectation20:24
mugsieand are activly moving in that direction20:25
Kiallfungi: yea, some groups really are different. And the resolution likely needs updating to reflect that20:25
johnthetubaguy+1 dhellmann, also I think its generally all a work in progress and happening20:25
dhellmannmugsie : which team is blocking you in that way?20:25
mugsiein which way? getting in tree?20:25
fungisimilarly, you can't demand that the i18n team start translating more projects just because they're big tent. they need to decide where makes the most sense to focus their limited labor force20:25
dhellmannmugsie : in whatever way you just implied by the "based on when it was integrated ..." statement20:26
flaper87fungi: another good example20:26
mugsiefungi: but you could ask them to allow all project into the transaltion system20:26
dhellmannmugsie : if you want to make a change-the-whole-world policy change, you need to be talking in more detail20:26
mugsieand they can use that to translate themselves20:26
flaper87ok, we need to move on as there are other topics to discuss20:26
fungimugsie: they already allow that20:26
Kiallfungi: agree, but the i18n tooling is open to all projects, and it's the same API used by all. Thus the problem mugsie's proposal is addressing doesn't exist20:26
flaper87We'll bring this up again in the next meeting if necessary20:26
mugsieso, htey wouodl be fine in this motion20:26
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dhellmannflaper87 : +1 to moving on20:27
flaper87mugsie: thanks a lot for your work there, as much as it might not look like it, I think we're moving somewhere20:27
flaper87#topic Add project Tricircle to OpenStack big-tent ( joehuang )20:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Add project Tricircle to OpenStack big-tent ( joehuang ) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:27
flaper87#link https://review.openstack.org/338796 (round 2)20:27
flaper87So, we discussed this topic in our lsat meeting20:27
flaper87There were different opinions and feedback on the proposal and by now many of them have been posted in the review already20:28
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flaper87joehuang: thanks again from joining us, we know this is a difficult hour in your TZ20:28
joehuangsome questions I asked in the comment now answered yet20:28
flaper87joehuang: anything you'd like to share/say ?20:28
joehuangthanks to flapper8720:28
joehuangyes, I would like to express my opinion a little20:29
flaper87joehuang: please do20:29
joehuangThanks Kyle to check the material based on guideline. I think -1 should be based on guideline, http://governance.openstack.org/reference/new-projects-requirements.html. So I can't accept other -1 for now, need more clarification on why -1 for other comment. There are already several projects with tag "single vendor", single vendor is also not the reason to stop a project joining the big-tent.20:29
sdagueI'm super not thrilled by the proxy API nature of this... especially as we've been deprecating the API proxies in Nova over this cycle20:29
joehuangwhich api proxy, you mean cells API proxy?20:30
johnthetubaguysdague: +120:30
dhellmannjoehuang : I'm not sure anyone is arguing your team has not followed the 4 opens. The objections I'm seeing are related to questions about whether "The project aligns with the OpenStack Mission"20:30
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joehuangto dhellmann20:30
* jroll <3 flaper87's review on this20:31
joehuangso I asked question in ttx's comment,20:31
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flaper87mordred you had a discussion f2f with joehuang a couple of weeks ago, right. Anything you want/can share?20:31
flaper87jroll: <320:31
mordredI've written adn deleted like 12 things since this topic started :)20:31
russellbi think this fundamentally changes nearly all OpenStack APIs and gives them 2 very different ways they may work, and i'm not convinced that's a good direction we should take20:31
joehuangcan't figure out how the Tricircle will harmfully dilute an OpenStack cloud and hurt the mission, could you help me to point out more concretely, for example from technology, scenario, use case, etc aspect? From my understanding, the Tricircle will address four use cases listed in the communication material:20:31
flaper87mordred: lol20:31
flaper87mordred: take your time20:31
russellboverall, i'd like to see stronger consensus around this before making it official in any way20:31
joehuangTo get more consensus is a good proposal, The Tricircle has already been developed under the "four open" guidelines, and discussed/reviewed almost one year in the design, not received objection during the development. When we talk about the "get consensus", I would like to know what's the process is, and what's the criteria, so that we have a target to strive for.20:32
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russellbi've rejected plenty in the past :)20:32
mordredI'm also not sure that the current proxy approach is the right one, and thingee and I chatted with joehuang a little bit about that. but that's an impl detail and one that can be worked on over time20:32
mesteryjoehuang: I posted another comment on the review, but I think russellb summarized my thoughts quite well20:32
dhellmannjoehuang : we are working very hard to establish a single openstack API even among the existing projects so that we can have deployment interoperability. Tricircle is a proxy layer on top of that with subtle differences, which means it is yet another API. That dilutes the mission.20:32
mordredI think what's more important is the intent of the team and what they are trying to accomplish20:32
russellbi have absolutely no problem with the project existing, no need to object to that ... i just don't think it should be an official project20:32
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mordredand whether that intent is in keeping with our mission or not20:32
joehuangJust objection is easy, I would like to hear your proposal how to address the use cases mentioned in the reference material[1], if no new proposal to address these issues as, I would recommend to add Tricircle as incubation project. A compromise proposal is to restore incubation project type for Tricircle, or add an incubation tag in big-tent project.20:33
russellbthere's no such thing as "incubation project"20:33
sdaguedhellmann: ++20:33
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joehuangIf just objection is enough, then no consensus can be achieved no matter what proposal is given, because any one can just put -1 without concrete reason based on guideline for governance area.20:33
dhellmannjoehuang: the fact that no one has objected so far does not mean that everyone agrees with the approach you've taken. as ttx points out in his comment, this is a significant architectural decision for the community.20:34
mordredimpl details aside, tricircle is working on cross-cloud use cases, and ways of making certain complex cross-cloud use cases work better for end users20:34
flaper87I'd feel more comfortable letting the project in the tent if there would be more discussions on the topic mostly because it's a difficult topic to address and I think it could definitely use a wider audience20:34
edleafejoehuang: I don't think anyone is placing -1's without reason20:34
joehuangto mordred: ++20:34
russellbmordred: sure, but i do think the architecure matters too20:34
mordredI suggested when we were meeting that it might be worthwhile considering a completely new api that is focused on those use cases, and promised joehuang I would send him an email with a write up of more specific thoughts there20:34
russellband there are fundamental objections to the approach at the most basic level ...20:34
sdaguemordred: sure, but there are other efforts as well, like the federated cloud work from the umass folks20:34
mordredrussellb: I do not think architecture matters, actually. not for big tent inclusion. but that's just my opinion and I respect alternate ones20:35
mordredsdague: sure there are, but the umass folks have not requested big tent inclusion and tricircle has20:35
dhellmannmordred : I don't think we want to have to deal with questions like "which version of the official openstack api do you mean?"20:35
flaper87#info there's no objection to the technical merits and details of the project but rather on the timing of the proposal and its implications community wise20:35
sdaguedhellmann: ++20:35
* flaper87 hopes that's a good first/partial summary20:35
mordreddhellmann: I do not think that is the question we're asking or answering here20:35
russellbflaper87: i object to the technical merits and details of the project20:36
mordrednobody at any point in time has said anything about tricircle being a part of DefCore20:36
dhellmannmordred : I think that is the question we will be asked if we start accepting projects like tricircle20:36
joehuangto make the archi WG get consensus,20:36
sdagueflaper87: I also object to the proxy nature20:36
flaper87russellb: in general or as a part of tent ?20:36
flaper87I meant that as part of the evaluation but it's fair20:36
dhellmannmordred: I don't think that defcore is the be-all-end-all definition of the list of projects for which people will ask that question.20:36
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Info object at 0x7f5bbfbb3a10>20:36
joehuangit's good to include tricircle in the big-tent with incubation tag20:36
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sdaguebecause I think that's the gratuitous overlap20:36
jrollgiven we don't like competing projects (missions?), the architecture does matter, right? or else we'll end up not accepting other valid multi-region scaling things?20:36
russellbthere's no such thing as incubation20:36
dhellmannjoehuang : we do not have a tag like that20:37
jrolls/valid/better/ even?20:37
mordreddhellmann: right. but I don't think adding something to the big tent adds a level of officianess to its api20:37
mordredlike, literally that's the opposite of what we did with big tent20:37
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dhellmannmordred : we call big tent projects "official projects"20:37
russellbjroll: the amount i care about competing/overlapping projects depends on the layer of the stack ... i care for keystone ... i don't care about deployment projects, for example20:37
dtroyermordred: that is not how many outside this group interpret the big tent20:37
dhellmanndtroyer : ++20:37
joehuangto dhellmann, good20:37
sdaguemordred: and we are putting up official API docs now20:37
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mordreddtroyer: sure. that means we have failed at educating them20:37
jrollrussellb: sure, but we like to say there's on compute/identity/etc API, would we want multiple multi-region-control APIs?20:38
mtreinishmordred: maybe, but we don't have any other way to differentiate an apis officialness. If it's in the big tent it kinda means that20:38
edleafewill having tricircle in the big tent affect how we look at the umass project if they later apply for inclusion?20:38
mordredok. listen. I get all of those arguements. but if we want to start judging projects based on the technical merits of their current implementation, then we need to change this process20:38
mordredthat is not what this is currently20:38
mugsiei thought that the big tent was supposed to stop TC doing arch review of projects?20:38
russellbjroll: i would put this int he category of "strongly object to overlap/competition" category, yes20:38
mordredno matter who thinks it is erroneuously20:38
sdaguerussellb: ++20:38
jrollrussellb: right, that's the point I'm trying to make20:38
russellbk :)20:38
joehuangto mordred +120:38
dhellmannmordred : I'm not making a technical judgement here. I'm saying that adding a second version of a nova API to openstack as an official project is a bad idea because it confuses things. It doesn't matter how that API is implemented.20:39
mordreddhellmann: right. which is one of the reasons I was suggesting to joehuang that we talk about different apis for tricircle20:39
russellbsounds like a great discussion20:39
joehuangthat's how to governance tricricle will not make deviation on api20:39
mordredwhich may mean we need to defer making a call on this right now ... I just want to make sure if we reject or defer we're doing it for the right reasons20:39
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dhellmannmordred : ok, cool. I look forward to being a fly on the wall for that.20:39
dtroyerthis is the cnace to get a single (appearing) aPI done 'right' fixing all the things we've learned in 6 years20:40
dtroyerso go do that20:40
joehuangI propose Nova/Cinder team can govern the tricircle api gw20:40
dhellmanndtroyer : shoot, if we could get the API right I'd support having something like this replace all of our existing apis :-)20:40
anteayajoehuang: do the nova/cinder teams want that responsiblity?20:40
sdaguewell, you know right for a week20:40
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jrolldhellmann: heh, +120:40
sdaguethen it would be wrong again20:40
sdaguewhen the first new use case showed up :)20:41
dtroyerdhellmann: maybe in 6 more years it would… but that's what I hear mordred suggeesting, and I think is the right approach for this sort of thing20:41
dhellmannsdague : humbug20:41
mtreinishsdague: and then right again 5 years later :)20:41
sdagueat stopped API is right twice a decade?20:41
joehuangthe use cases are quite new20:41
mordreddhellmann: right. that's sort of exactly what I'm saying the effort here is _really_ wanting to do - but the team doing it is trying their best to play nicely with everyone20:41
dhellmannsdague : ++20:41
joehuangI don't know how deep the new use cases have been discussed in the past 6 years20:41
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dhellmannmordred : I appreciate and am not questioning that in any way20:41
mordredI mean dtroyer20:41
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joehuangplease look at the use case2 from the finiacial segements20:42
sdaguemordred: ok, well my experience is quite different there. Because the umass folks show up and talk with (at least the nova team) through issues, and have been for the past 2 years (summits and midcycles), which has not been true here20:42
mordredsdague: this is quite different than what they're trying to do20:43
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mordredsdague: this is a thing which actually understands all of your cloudregionzones, which is not a construct which exists anywhere in openstack, as openstack regions are completey independent sharednothing entities at the moment20:43
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sdaguemordred: that's fine, I just want to characterize the level of collaboration I've seen20:43
mordredsdague: totally20:43
jrollsdague: well, this is just trying to duplicate the nova API as a proxy, there aren't hard technical problems to work out with the nova team, right?20:43
jrollit's just pick a nova and pass the request20:44
joehuangto mordred, multi-regions don't work for these use cases20:44
sdaguejroll: what about when nova's are at different versions20:44
flaper87Do we agree that we should defer the inclusion of Tricircle and encourage the team to work with the rest of the community on improving/discussing the approach taken on this issue?20:44
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dhellmannflaper87 : +120:44
sdagueflaper87: +120:44
sdagueI think that's what the vote looks like now20:44
mesteryflaper87: +120:44
dhellmannso, not a rejection, but a deferral20:44
mordredflaper87: I will volunteer to work further with joehuang20:44
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flaper87mordred: awesome! Thanks <320:45
dhellmann(which may actually look like a rejection in the short term if we abandon this specific review)20:45
joehuangto mordred: thanks20:45
jrollsdague: doesn't seem like they intend to solve that now (microversions don't exist in tricircle), but I think we digress20:45
mordredas I think that the work the team is doing is valuable, but currently not structured in a way the rest of the community is well positoined to accept20:45
flaper87#action mordred will follow-up with joehuang to help the Tricircle team move forward20:45
dhellmannmordred : +120:45
flaper87mordred: is that action item fair? Want me to change it?20:45
jrollsdague: good point though20:45
sdaguemordred: +120:45
joehuangmicroversion support is listed in our agenda20:45
mordredflaper87: it's great20:45
mordredI owe like 10 different people writeups on like 10 different topics, so step one with joehuang may take a few weeks, and I apologize for that speed20:46
flaper87joehuang: thanks a bunch again for joining and I do hope you all will continue working on what you're doing20:46
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dhellmannmordred : you need some interns or something20:46
flaper87As a final note, joehuang, this is a deferral and not a rejection! Looking forward to the future proposal20:46
joehuangto mordred and flaper87: ok20:46
jrollhe needs clones :)20:46
flaper87ok, let's move on20:47
mordreddhellmann: then I'd have to tell the interns what to do, which would involve me writing up thoughts for them :)20:47
* rockyg hands mordred an honarary tricircle member badge, and a rose20:47
anteayajroll: no, no clones20:47
flaper87#topic Update thresholds for active reviewers ( flaper87 )20:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Update thresholds for active reviewers ( flaper87 ) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:47
flaper87#link https://review.openstack.org/337853 and clarify what an active (core) reviewer is20:47
flaper87#link https://review.openstack.org/34222520:47
jrollanteaya: the more mordreds the merrier :D20:47
joehuangto flaper87, could you comment on the review for "defer but not rejection"20:47
anteayano, no, no20:47
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anteayaone is more than enough20:47
flaper87So, I kept the second link in the topic just to say that I'd prefer to talk about that one later :D20:47
dhellmannflaper87 : mordred mentioned doing something with standard deviations, too, did you look at what impact that would have over a simple %?20:47
rockygor is that the more dreds the merrier?20:47
flaper87I'd love for us to focus on this one https://review.openstack.org/33785320:48
joehuangthank you, I have to sleep now :)20:48
flaper87dhellmann: I did not, tbh20:48
flaper87dhellmann: but I could20:48
dhellmannflaper87 : ok, just checking20:48
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dhellmannI'm curious, but I don't know what actually makes sense here20:48
flaper87So, this is another split of the original proposal and it focuses on the changes to the teamstats.py script we use20:48
flaper87we have majority already20:49
flaper87I wonder if there are other questions20:49
mugsieso, i theory, if a team had 4 cores, the minimum level for an active reviewer wouold be closer to 15%, right?20:49
mugsie(based on each patch needing 2 +2's)20:49
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* flaper87 tries to do the math in his head but it's passed the math hour in his TZ20:50
mugsieand if it had 3 cores, it would be ~ 30%20:50
dhellmannmugsie : if you have 4 folks and one is very slack, the effort goes up for the others. that's one reason for looking into standard deviations, I guess.20:50
* amrith scratches his head on that math20:50
mordredmugsie: that's sort of why I was origianlly musing about standard deviations20:50
mordredit's harder math of course20:50
mtreinishyeah, that's what I was just thinking too. It kinda depends on the number of reviews and the number of cores to be fair20:50
mugsieits just the 2% rule seems ... low20:50
mtreinishmordred: bring in numpy :)20:50
dhellmannmordred : in python 3 it's a function call: https://docs.python.org/3.5/library/statistics.html#statistics.pstdev20:51
* flaper87 stores that link20:51
dhellmannor https://docs.python.org/3.5/library/statistics.html#statistics.stdev20:51
dhellmannor someone who actually knows that math could find the right function :-)20:51
* amrith thinks we should define what we want to accomplish before getting bogged down in the math functions20:51
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sdagueflaper87: so... what changed after this add?20:51
sdaguelike which projects moved across a line?20:52
dhellmannamrith: we're trying to make it so that teams that let core members "linger" even when they are not active do not benefit in terms of appearing to be diverse20:52
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mordreddhellmann: you are a walking encyclopedia of python20:52
flaper87sdague: mostly not visible changes as some projects got closer to the line20:52
amrithdhellmann, in truth, this commit doesn't do that.20:52
dhellmannmordred : it comes in print and all major ebook formats...20:52
mugsieamrith: yeah. thats a good question  - i may have missed a meeting thought - why do we need a definition of an active reviewer? is there teams suffing cores to get diversity?20:52
sdagueflaper87: ok, which projects had the biggest drift?20:52
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sdaguethat might help validate if this feels fine20:52
dhellmannmugsie : not "stuffing" no20:52
flaper87sdague: telemetry is one example20:53
flaper87sdague: it's in the edge of missing the diversity tag20:53
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dhellmannyeah, I stayed on the core team there way longer than I should have and that skewed their diversity stats for a while20:53
mordredmugsie: there are some projects that don't ever clean up old non-active cores so they look like they've got more active core teams than they actually do20:53
mordredmugsie: good example from dhellmann20:54
sdagueflaper87: ok, that seems valid then20:54
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johnthetubaguydid we try 5%?20:54
flaper87johnthetubaguy: we did but it left out some core reviewers that are clearly active20:54
mugsieyeah, meant telemetrey lost the diversity tag, right?20:54
flaper87johnthetubaguy: in teams like Telemetry for example20:54
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johnthetubaguyah, OK20:54
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flaper87so, it was a bit too high20:54
fungithis still seems like a lot of added complexity for very little gain. i'm particularly curious how it handles the fact that many larger teams have different core reviewer groups on different deliverables with some overlap across deliverables20:55
dhellmannflaper87 : how are they "clearly active"?20:55
flaper87We can adjust this later but the main change I would like to see is the check of activity for core reviewers20:55
anteayafungi: like infra?20:55
flaper87dhellmann: number of reviews in the projects they are most focused on20:55
fungianteaya: like infra and a number of others, sure20:55
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flaper87dhellmann: Telemetry has other smaller projects20:55
* anteaya thinks of the jjb team20:55
flaper87and not everyone reviews on every Telemetry project20:56
dhellmannflaper87: ok, oslo is another program like that20:56
flaper87dhellmann: yeah20:56
mugsiewoul that not indicate that we shouldupdate the formula, not the % ?20:56
* mugsie hates this keyboard20:56
johnthetubaguyFWIW the more complicated logic gives me a warmer fuzzier feeling we have a better estimate than the straight 30 review cut off, not that it really makes any more sense20:56
flaper87ok, we've 5mins left20:56
flaper87Unless there are strong objections to discuss, I'll change topics to open discussion20:57
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sdagueflaper87: ++20:57
flaper87(sorry for cutting some ppl off, do post comments on the review)20:57
dhellmannflaper87, johnthetubaguy : maybe we should change it to say "active for one deliverable" or something20:57
fungii think the diversity tag is a fundamentally flawed implementation that needs to be per-deliverable for it to make any sense20:57
corvussome reviews take seconds.  some take hours.  the more complex we make this metric, the more important it is to get it right, and i fear that will be very difficult.20:57
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dhellmanncorvus : good point20:57
flaper87corvus: ++20:57
flaper87#topic Open discussion20:57
johnthetubaguydhellmann: yeah, makes sense20:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:57
mugsiewhich circles back to "why" ?20:58
dhellmannfungi : also a reasonable way to change it20:58
johnthetubaguyso its all an estimate, not sure there will ever by a good "automated" way to do it20:58
flaper87In case ppl have some spare time for a meetbot review: https://review.openstack.org/34206920:58
fungialso, as we know, adding metrics brings pervese incentives to make behavioral changes to meet the metric rather than to necessarily do what the metric intends to try and measure20:58
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fungiso i can see it encouraging core reviewers to focus on quick and easy reviews (to corvus's point) so they meet their quota20:59
flaper87fungi: yeah, that's the main point against having an explicit definition of what "active" is20:59
flaper87which is also why I've split this into several reviews20:59
flaper87one for the code changes and another for the wording20:59
mtreinishjohnthetubaguy: well, thats kinda why I +1'd it, best first effort. We can try to get better in the future or formalize giving up trying and make it subjective20:59
dhellmannmugsie : we want to accurately reflect how active people are, so we can accurately reflect how robust a team is, so users of projects can understand whether teams are stable or subject to the whims of a single corporate entity20:59
johnthetubaguymtreinish: same here20:59
flaper87mtreinish: ++20:59
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johnthetubaguyso we are doing well with open21:00
flaper871 min left21:00
mugsiedhellmann: is there an issue we need solved, based on this? a projects that needs to have the tag removed, or the sibgle verndor one applied, based on this discussion21:00
* flaper87 takes a deep breath before shouting good night to everyone21:00
mugsieor, should we deal with this on project basis?21:00
flaper87mugsie: this is not targeting a single project, fwiw21:00
dhellmannmugsie : looking at some of the teams, we think they're less diverse than our current definition implies, yes21:01
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flaper87ok, time's up21:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 26 21:01:17 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-07-26-20.02.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-07-26-20.02.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-07-26-20.02.log.html21:01
jrollthanks flaper8721:01
dtroyerthanks flaper8721:01
flaper87my pleasure21:01
dhellmannthanks, flaper87, good job keeping us on topic today :-)21:01
dims_shit, i missed the meeting !!21:01
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mtreinishdims_: heh :)21:02
jmlowedims_: no problem, you can join ours starting any second now21:02
b1airodims_, you can join ours!21:02
oneswigReady for scientific WG?21:02
dims_LOL. cool21:02
b1airo#startmeeting scientific-wg21:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 26 21:02:54 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is b1airo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg'21:02
b1airo#chair oneswig21:03
openstackCurrent chairs: b1airo oneswig21:03
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b1airohi all o/21:03
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oneswigWhere to begin?21:04
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b1airohi leong, is that Yih Leong Sun from Intel?21:04
mordredoneswig: I misread the meeting start and thought that the topic was "oneswig" and I thought I'd clearly missed the addition of a project21:04
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leongyes b1airo21:04
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anteayaisunil: this is the scientific working group meeting21:04
b1airomordred, lol21:04
anteayaisunil: you were an hour early21:04
* mordred goes back into his hole21:04
oneswigmordred: my life is a project but comparison to openstack is debatable...21:04
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dims_lol mordred21:04
b1airocatchy names are required to stand out in the big tent21:05
oneswigoneswig: more of a peg than a tent21:05
b1airoleong, great so we can talk about openhpc today then!21:05
dims_need a mascot now too b1airo21:05
rockygoh, man, mordred , OneSwig would be a great project name!21:05
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b1airoor is it OnesWig21:05
leongsure! b1airo21:06
oneswigrockyg: In the Queen's English, indeed, One's Wig?21:06
b1airoahh dear me, let's get into it then21:06
rockygoneswig, that give the project with that name even possibly a reason to be!21:06
jmlowetwo's complement21:06
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b1airoso this week we want to talk about:21:07
b1airo1) SC16 activities21:07
b1airo2) OpenHPC21:07
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b1airo3) any news in our focus areas21:07
b1airo#topic SC16 activities21:08
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b1airoquick recap21:08
b1airowe have a panel session already scheduled at SC21:09
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b1airooneswig, I can't recall - did we end up getting confirmation from everyone listed?21:09
oneswigI don't know, I think confirmation went to a person at SC21:09
oneswigI confirmed...21:10
oneswigSure you did too21:10
b1aironot sure whether we heard from Kate or not?21:10
oneswigThere must have been similar responses from others?21:10
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katekeaheyYou have not -- is it OK to confirm now?21:11
leongour team also planning for a BoF, maybe we can coordinate?21:11
oneswigHi Kate!21:11
jmlowehey, Kate's here21:11
b1airohi katekeahey, yes great21:11
katekeaheyHello -- do we know yet when the panel is scheduled?21:11
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b1airono i don't think the programme is out yet21:12
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b1airoi also notice that i have email soliciting "Final Panel Information" by 1st Aug21:12
oneswigMichaela Taufer?21:13
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oneswigDid you get mail from her Kate?21:13
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katekeaheyMail from Michaela? (I get a lot of mail from her but I don't think I got anything about the panel)21:14
b1airooneswig, yes21:14
katekeaheyDo you want me to ask her?21:14
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oneswigAha, digging further back: "Your panel has been tentatively scheduled for Thu Nov 17, 3:30pm-5pm. "21:14
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b1airoit's basically just a confirmation of the submission we already submitted, but there is a chance to add panelist bios21:14
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b1airooneswig, nice find21:14
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katekeaheyOK, excellent so it looks like we have a date -- I should be able to make it21:15
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hogepodgeThis is Chris from the OSF. I'll be at SC this year, and I'm available for any booth duty or events.21:16
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oneswigkatekeahey: I think things continue as they are by default, from a quick scan.  I don't think you need to explicitly confirm but perhaps it wouldn't hurt to do so21:16
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oneswigHi Chris - did you see the mail on user-committee from jmlowe on Indiana University's booth?21:17
b1airopresumably submissions.supercomputing.org will tell you if there are any outstanding actions21:17
katekeaheyI should confirm to Bill then?21:17
hogepodgeoneswig: I did, I will reply to it21:18
jmloweI was just pinged again today about booth talks, so the sooner the better, it's not a lot just a line or two so the schedule can be made21:18
oneswigkatekeahey: if you don't have any mails from SC's organising committee about this, probably worth figuring out21:18
jmloweboth small, I'm going to say up to 10 people, and large, 30 or so21:19
katekeaheyOK, let me send mail then21:19
b1airoI think we have confirmation (email or chat) from everyone currently on the panel programme: katekeahey, Jon Mills, jmlowe, Robert Budden, oneswig, b1airo21:20
oneswigjmlowe: your deadline for submissions is 1st August?21:20
jmlowefriday, if at all possible21:20
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b1airooneswig, did you say you were going to follow up to the panel thread?21:21
oneswigjmlowe: I'll do a lightning talk on our OpenStack project at Cambridge - have to do it for the Bof (if it goes through) anyway21:21
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oneswigb1airo: sorry, you mean on the wording of the Bof?21:22
jmlowethat's great, sounds like a thing for a small talk, you can expect a big talk on jetstream in our booth of course21:22
b1airooh no sorry, confused myself, that was hogepodge21:22
b1airooneswig, do you see any "action" required in the submissions interface?21:23
jmloweanteaya: yep, thanks, where did the time go?21:23
anteayajmlowe: my thoughts exactly21:23
oneswigjmlowe: A talk on how we might use the work from Jetstream at Cambridge for example might tick some boxes?21:23
oneswigjmlowe: I'll get to work on it :-)21:24
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leongdo we have a BoF for SC16?21:24
b1airook so...21:24
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jmloweI'm thinking some sort of "cloud and hpc w/ openstack helps you collaborate and easily move your work around" theme21:25
b1airo#action all: to follow up with jmlowe asap re. booth talks21:25
b1airo#action b1airo: ask SC16 panelists for Bio details21:25
jmloweI can probably sell that21:25
hogepodgeIf we can encourage some academic clouds to consider adding identity federation to help share resources, that would be great21:25
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hogepodgealong the line of collaborating and moving work loads21:26
b1airoleong, we are writing a BoF proposal at the moment, already have a panel21:26
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b1airohogepodge, there is a reasonable amount of interest in that but i think many of us are unclear about the technical requirements21:27
leongour team is interested for a BoF as well, maybe we can collaborate ?21:27
jmlowehogepodge: rbudden and I along with some others are working on setting up a xsede keystone with the express purpose of federating it with anybody and everybody21:27
b1airojmlowe, sounds like something NeCTAR would be interested in21:28
b1airoleong, what topic were you thinking about?21:28
hogepodgeb1airo: I can help out21:28
hogepodgejmlowe: that sounds great21:28
leongsomething along the line with OpenHPC + OpenStack21:28
oneswigleong: Do you have a proposal in the works?  Makes sense to join them if so, increase the weighting21:28
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jmloweI added this to the bof submission today "It is the intent of this BOF to provide the broader HPC community with examples of HPC work being done, lessons learned, and best practices from members of the OpenStack community."21:29
anteayaoneswig: nice direction21:29
katekeaheyIs there a specific objective for the BOF? (such as for example to hear from the HPC community to what extent they would be interested in adopting either OpenStack or more generally IaaS type model?)21:29
* anteaya is so heartened when witnessing collaboration21:29
anteayathank you scientific group21:29
oneswigleong: Wouldn't a BoF be about something people are already established with using?  OpenHPC + OpenStack sounds like something on the event horizon21:29
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leongoneswig, i will discuss with my OpenHPC team on more details21:31
b1airooneswig, that's what i was thinking too, but certainly relevant in the context of the OpenStack BoF21:31
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b1airokatekeahey, we'll send you the draft link...21:31
katekeaheyAh, fantastic, I figured there must be some shared context -- thank you!21:32
oneswigleong: Not to say I'm not highly interested in OpenHPC, it's the kind of topic I'd be very interested to discuss (among others)21:32
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leongi understand :-)21:32
b1airoso there is one question on the BoF submission that we need to sort out21:32
leongthat can also be a potential topic to discuss at Barcelona summit21:32
b1airo(other than paring it down)21:32
b1airowe need a "primary session leader"21:33
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b1airoalso katekeahey - the intent with the BoF is for folks interested in HPC on OpenStack21:34
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b1airoso it's sort of continuing on from the one Jon Mills led last year, which was generally cloud focused I believe, and this time being opinionated about using OpenStack21:34
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b1airooneswig, yes could be Bill i guess. best if it is someone recognisable in the SC/HPC community21:35
b1airojmlowe, you are most welcome to lead it if you like, no need for straws :-)21:36
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b1airothough we haven't heard from Jon for a while, he might expect to be doing it, so need to ping him21:37
jmloweI thought it was convention that the short straw lost and would have to lead21:37
b1airojmlowe - haha, you've exposed my graciousness as an act of laziness :-)21:38
jmloweI'd do if if you had exhausted the list of better candidates21:39
oneswigIs everyone holding a straw?  This one looks long21:39
b1airook, let's take this to email then oneswig ?21:40
oneswigb1airo: good plan, we can't speak for absent friends21:40
b1airo#action oneswig, b1airo: email lists and members re. BoF leaders and participants21:41
b1airowe need a rough idea of the numbers too, but i'm guessing it's going to be large21:41
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b1airook, any objections to moving on so we can here about what leong and Intel are up to in the OpenHPC - OpenStack integration space?21:42
oneswiggo ahead21:43
b1airo#topic OpenHPC - OpenStack Integration21:43
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenHPC - OpenStack Integration (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:43
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b1airoleong, want to give us a run down?21:43
leongwe are starting a project for OpenHPC and OpenStack21:44
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leonginvestigating on how to integrate these two technologies together21:44
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oneswigleong: what do you see as the points of contact, and is there conflict/overlap at all?21:45
anteayahave existing projects been evaluated to see if any are a close fit?21:45
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leongwe are now looking at OpenStack Ironic21:45
anteayaleong: awesome thank you21:45
anteayajroll: ^^21:45
leongis still at the early stages of investigation..21:46
anteayajroll: thought you would want to be here for this21:46
leongbut Ironic is identified as our initial project to integrate with21:46
anteayaleong: please meet jroll the Ironic PTL21:46
jrollthat is great21:46
anteayajroll: leong21:46
leongisunil is my team, he just join this discussion21:46
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oneswigleong: Is OpenHPC expected to image+boot HPC node instances on demand in this scenario?21:47
leongthere is nothing much to report today, i just want to bring up the conversation and interest in this group?21:47
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anteayaI think meeting some ironic folks is a good first step21:48
leongoneswig, that can be one scenario, but we haven't got into that level of details yet21:48
anteayaI'm sure they can help you evaluate if ironic is a good fit21:48
jmlowesure, I bet Bridges at PSC would be really interested21:48
oneswigleong: plenty of interest.  If your focus is on Ironic, I wonder if OpenHPC might contribute a scalable way of imaging x thousand nodes simultaneously21:48
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leongwe will keep this team updated on our progress21:49
jmloweI think I remember rbudden (sends his regrets as he is on vacation) saying that it took 8 hours to image all of his ironic nodes21:49
b1airooneswig, isn't that a problem the Rocks guys have had a pretty good solution to for some years?21:49
leongi'm wondering we can have further discussion at Barcelona for this OpenHPC topic21:49
anteayajmlowe: with an image that already was built? or does that include building the image?21:50
leongwe will probably have more results to share along the next few months21:50
isuniloneswig: I am new to OpenStack, excuse me for dumb question: is scalable provisioning via irnoic has a concern?21:50
oneswigb1airo: question is how to fit it into multi-tenant environment...21:50
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jmloweanteaya: not sure, wasn't paying attention21:50
anteayajmlowe: okay, image builds often take the infra team a considerable amount of time21:50
oneswigjmlowe: anteaya: my recollection was more like 2 days to image the whole lot (but was jetlagged at the time)21:50
leongthere is some scalability concern when scheduling x-thounsand deployment21:51
b1airofor the record: http://www.rocksclusters.org/rocks-doc/papers/two-pager/paper.pdf21:51
anteayaoneswig: /nod21:51
jrolloneswig: ironic gained multitenant networking this cycle, there's just one nova patch left to go, I hope to see that in the newton release21:51
anteayab1airo: thanks for the pdf21:51
jmloweisunil: my understanding is that ironic as a whole doesn't scale well, single threaded and has trouble walking a large number of nodes21:51
oneswigjroll: that is so great, well done21:51
jrolljmlowe: define scale? ironic handles thousands of nodes pretty well21:52
leongthat is one area we need to work closely with Ironic team on the scalability21:52
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jrollI'll admit there's work to do on simultaneous deployments, multicasting images and such21:52
jmlowejroll: I don't run it, just foggy beer soaked recollections from war stories in Austin21:52
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anteayajmlowe: if you can recollect any data with links, do share21:53
oneswigleong: if you came looking for ideas for work, I think you found it :-)21:53
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jrolljmlowe: hm, data would be nice :)21:53
anteayajmlowe: folks in the #openstack-ironic channel are most friendly21:53
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leongjroll, will ping you further when we can into OpenHPC integration with Ironic21:54
b1airoleong, so one thing i'd suggest is that you focus on things a little higher up the stack. to me openhpc looks promising from the perspective of a hpc SOE (insofar as that is an achievable thing). whatever you're doing you'd presumably want it to work for bare-metal and virtualised clusters?21:54
oneswigjroll: is there any work done on using pull models based on swift urls within tripleo for ironic?21:54
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jrollleong: cool21:54
leongsure b1airo21:54
anteayaleong: better yet, join the #openstack-ironic channel and be aware of the chat21:54
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jrolloneswig: I don't work on tripleo, but ironic certainly supports pulling images from swift for deployment21:54
* devananda notices all the chatter about ironic, perks up a bit late to the conversation21:55
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b1airoso the OpenStack integration could e.g. use Heat as the integration point with Nova or Ironic behind ?21:55
jrollI assume tripleo supports it, just needs swift and the right driver selected21:55
anteayadevananda: welcome21:55
oneswigHi devananda21:55
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b1airohi devananda21:56
leongwe have 5 mins to the hour.. i will work with our OpenHPC team and came out with a plan on how to move this forward21:56
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oneswigjroll: is the pull-based deployment documented in ironic dev docs?  Perhaps I should start at the tripleo end.21:56
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b1airoleong, do you have a goal for this project at this stage?21:56
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anteayaleong: here is some information on the ironic weekly meeting: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Ironic_(Bare_Metal)_Team_Meeting21:56
b1airoor is it not yet rubber-stamped by "the business"21:56
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jrolloneswig: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/ironic/drivers/ipa.html21:57
anteayaworking with an existing project would really reduce your project maintenance over head21:57
devanandaoneswig: tripleo is a means to deploy openstack -- it's not specifically about HPC or about Ironic21:57
oneswigThanks jroll looks clear as always.21:57
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oneswigdevananda: no but it does use it (the other way)21:58
anteayahelping a current project with testing and docs is far easier than setting it all up yourself21:58
isunilb1airo: we are right now @very early stage for openHPC & OpenStack integration.21:58
devanandais there documentation or a reference somewhere I could read that explains what openHPC is, what the project goals are, and what the current implementation status is?21:58
b1airohi Sunil21:58
oneswigisunil: leong: got a blog we can track?21:59
b1airodevananda, there is code of course :-)21:59
oneswigThe bell chimes22:00
oneswigWe are out of time22:00
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b1airosorry no time for AOB today!22:01
leonglet me follow up with my team and we can discuss next time22:01
oneswigThanks everyone, leong looking forward to it22:01
b1airoplease take it to the list if there is anything to discuss22:01
oneswigb1airo: +122:01
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b1airoanteaya, jroll devananda - thanks for jumping on-demand22:01
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jmloweleong: while you are here, I definitely want to meet up in Barcelona22:02
b1airos/jumping/jumping in/22:02
jrollblogan: welcome :)22:02
anteayasure, thanks for collaborating22:02
anteayaso heartening22:02
oneswigUntil next week...22:02
anteayajroll: second character is the number one22:02
anteayajroll: took me a few tries too22:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 26 22:02:57 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-07-26-21.02.html22:03
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-07-26-21.02.txt22:03
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-07-26-21.02.log.html22:03
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jrollanteaya: hm?22:03
b1airoanteaya, yeah i think the blair lurker in this channel is me too (an IRC bouncer i setup a while back but haven't got my settings sorted on this machine)22:03
devanandab1airo: fwiw, there are folks currently using ironic for provisioning HPC clusters. the project initially grew out of a join HPC research group from NTT and USC-ISI22:04
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anteayajroll: b 1 <tab>22:04
anteayab1airo: ah22:04
anteayablair: there you are22:05
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b1airodevananda, yes we have some of them in the scientific-wg :-)22:05
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jrollanteaya: aha, I see it now, sorry b1airo :)22:05
b1aironp jroll22:05
anteayajroll: no worries, great multitasking22:05
b1airoi knew what you meant22:05
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b1airodevananda, we haven't tried HPC provisioning with Ironic yet, but definitely interested. in Austin i heard some reports of scalability issues but i'm not too concerned about that as we aren't dealing with thousands of nodes anyway and by the time we get to it we'll be benefiting from the efforts of those trying to use it at scale22:06
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devanandab1airo: if configured appropriately, Ironic should be fine with 10^3 nodes, though there are definitely improvements we can make around parallel deployments to avoid saturating the network22:08
devanandab1airo: there were a couple developers from Cray working on scaling it to 10^5 nodes, but I haven't seen much work come from that team in about a year, I think22:09
b1airoyeah that's why i mentioned the Rocks installer - the p2p idea is a nice one22:09
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devanandawe've drafted designs for p2p or multicast deployments several times, but no one's been motivated to do the work so far ...22:09
devanandaI know several folks on the team would be eager to review / assist with that, if someone championed the development of such22:10
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b1airogood to know it's on the radar. i must run. thanks!22:12
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