Tuesday, 2016-09-06

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hongbin_#startmeeting zun03:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep  6 03:00:09 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hongbin_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.03:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.03:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'zun'03:00
hongbin_#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2016-09-06_0300_UTC Today's agenda03:00
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hongbin_#topic Roll Call03:00
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hongbin_Thanks for joining the meeting yanyanhu Namrata haiwei_ sudipto Wenzhi yuanying03:01
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hongbin_shu-mutou: shubhams Thanks for joining03:02
hongbin_#topic Announcements03:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)"03:02
hongbin_1. Project rename finished: our project has been renamed in Gerrit and Github last Friday.03:02
hongbin_#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/329247/03:02
hongbin_So, everything is renamed to Zun now03:02
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hongbin_#topic Review Action Items03:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: zun)"03:03
hongbin_1. hongbin raise a ML to discuss container image (DONE)03:03
hongbin_#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-September/102777.html03:03
hongbin_It looks nobody replied to the ML, but we can discuss it later in the agenda03:03
hongbin_#topic Nova integration (Namrata)03:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Nova integration (Namrata) (Meeting topic: zun)"03:03
hongbin_#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/nova-integration The BP03:03
hongbin_#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-nova-integration The etherpad03:04
hongbin_Namrata: ^^03:04
Namratai worked on my bp last night(here)03:04
Namratabut i guess there is some error(-1 jenkins)03:04
Namrataso i will see it today03:04
Namratai have some doubts to clear03:04
hongbin_Namrata: btw, the -1 on jenkins has nothing to do with your patch03:05
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Namratai am new.Then what it refers to?03:05
hongbin_Namrata: it is something incorrect in project-config, and it will be fixed https://review.openstack.org/#/c/365803/03:05
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Namrataokay cool03:06
sudiptohongbin_, wondering why that job is added as a part of the build?03:06
sudiptowe don't need the devstack jobs for specs - do we?03:07
hongbin_sudipto: the job will run on every patches03:07
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hongbin_sudipto: however, we can disable it if the patch is a spec03:07
sudiptohongbin_, agreed,03:07
sudiptothat was my point too.03:07
hongbin_will create a bug for that03:07
hongbin_#action create a bug to disable devstack job if a patch is a spec or doc change03:08
sudiptohongbin_, apologies for not replying to the ML - I had customer meet ups till Friday and yesterday was a site holiday.03:08
hongbin_sudipto: NP at all03:09
sudiptoI will catch up with you today! in your day time. Anyway - let's continue.03:09
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hongbin_Namrata: anything else from you about nova integration?03:09
hongbin_Thanks Namrata03:09
Namratai will update the patch03:09
hongbin_#topic Container image store03:09
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*** openstack changes topic to "Container image store (Meeting topic: zun)"03:09
hongbin_#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/glance-integration03:10
hongbin_#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-image03:10
hongbin_OK, let's discuss the container image03:10
hongbin_let's continue from the ML03:10
hongbin_#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-September/102777.html03:10
hongbin_what we agreed is to support a special prefix 'glance/'03:11
hongbin_if a container image name has that prefix (i.e. glance/busybox), then pull it from Glance03:11
hongbin_if not, pull it from the Docker Hub03:11
hongbin_so far, any comment?03:12
yanyanhuyes, this makes sense. Another option is we always try to pull image from local registry(glance)03:12
yanyanhuif not found, try to pull from docker hub, e.g.03:13
hongbin_yanyanhu: yes, that could be an alternative03:13
hongbin_what are the pros and cons03:13
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Wenzhiglance can provide multi-tenancy support03:14
sudiptoThe reason why yanyanhu 's proposal is better is probably because - if you have a compose file that has been worked on a different COE (say kubernetes) - when you run it in zun - it should run as is, without any edits.03:14
hongbin_sudipto: i see03:15
yanyanhuyes, this is one important reason03:15
hongbin_sudipto: I agree with that the advantage is the portability03:15
yanyanhuto keep compatible03:15
haiwei_agree, make glance as the first priority seems reasonable03:16
hongbin_ok, any oppositing point of view?03:16
hongbin_if no, i mark it as a agreed03:16
sudiptoanother conflicting point03:16
shubhamshongbin : should we provide a command to set up and config a local repo . something line : zun --repo-create  and zun --repo-config (thats inside glance) and in zun --create provide option "use-repo" for which value can be "local repo" or "other"03:17
sudiptoare we on the same page w.r.t having this in glance or glare?03:17
sudiptoI can't seem to understand the way forward...03:17
sudiptonikhil, hi - are you here?03:17
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sudiptolooks like he isn't.03:18
hongbin_shubhams: your suggestion is to introduce a new API to manage image repo?03:18
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shubhamshongbin : yes and that way we can allow user/admin to manage their repo03:18
haiwei_why not use glance directly? shubhams03:19
Wenzhiagreed ^^03:19
shubhamsthere might be cases when they want to use their repo in private and do not want to share and their might be cases when they first want to pull images and then make changes and push them directly in their local  repo only03:19
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sudiptoglance should be able to handle that no?03:20
haiwei_I think so03:21
shubhamssudipto: I think glance should be able to handle that but need confirmation and api should be added just for better management03:21
sudiptoagreed some evaluation is needed. I am broadly confused about the way forward for image management vs artefact management as well.03:22
shubhamsuser/admin knows better from where they want an image (based on their usecase)03:22
sudiptoyeah that's the functionality that glance provides - multi-tenancy03:22
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hongbin_I think shubhams point is valid. There might be use cases that users want to always pull from docker hub03:23
hongbin_because all the images are versioned there03:23
hongbin_in this case, a config is needed for operators to define a list of repo03:24
hongbin_and the order of each repo03:24
shubhamsIf we try to decide it by ourself in zun code( like first check in local repo and then checks online) then it might add unnecessary time for pulling because you are first waiting for local repo and then asking for docker hun03:24
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nikhilI don't know your use case for artifacts , image management is currently only glance03:25
sudiptoyeah the  only thing is - you are going to still have the same problem with the ordering of config option. That is the lower order repo has the image - you would reach there only after evaluating the higher order ones.03:26
sudiptonikhil, ok03:27
hongbin_yes, it is up to the operators to define a good list of repos and their orders to minimize the misses03:28
hongbin_if they don't want multiple repos, define a list with single repo03:28
hongbin_then images will be always pulled from that repo03:28
shubhamsone more use case:  If we manage repo and addition of images is the job of admin then they can pull images in background without affecting others and users of those images can seemlessly use local repo only.03:29
shubhamsThat will be a kind of abstraction which users of images will have . probably good from security perspective as well03:29
nikhilIt almost looks like you guys are talking about different backends03:30
sudiptoshubhams, how would the admin know - what image to pull?03:30
nikhilRather than different repositories03:30
nikhilKey difference is abstraction fir03:30
sudiptonikhil, we are basically talking about everything atm, we will definitely use glance at some point in time after we settle the dust :)03:30
hongbin_nikhil: the initial proposal is to pull from glance first, if there is a miss, pull it from DOcker hub03:31
hongbin_nikhil: then the discussion evolve to let admins define a list of repos and define their orders03:31
nikhilFrom users perspective is way simple for diff backends rather than repo03:31
nikhilhongbin_: so...03:31
hongbin_nikhil: nothing, just explain03:32
nikhilGlance has this image locations feature for admins03:32
nikhilSryy ipad==typo and less speed03:32
nikhilUsing locations you can define strategy to pull images from in a specific order /algorithm03:33
hongbin_nikhil: thx. good to knnow03:33
sudiptonikhil, wasn't that something you wanted to deprecate? since it was a security hole or something? (Sorry if i am wrong)03:34
nikhilI think if we can think of docker hub as anothrt backend for glance03:34
nikhilDarn... We need better at communicating03:34
nikhilNot deprecate for admins03:34
hongbin_ok, maybe we need to investigate the glance feature further03:35
nikhilAnyway, from my perspective a good opportunity to create a docker hub driver in glance store just like one exists for ceph, swift , http etc03:35
nikhilMy$0.02, thx!03:36
hongbin_nikhil: thanks for your advice03:36
hongbin_ok, folks, let's think of this topic further, and re-discuss it at the next meeting03:37
sudiptonikhil, thank you!03:37
hongbin_#topic Container network03:37
*** openstack changes topic to "Container network (Meeting topic: zun)"03:37
hongbin_#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/neutron-integration03:37
hongbin_#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/365754/03:37
hongbin_for this topic, i proposed a spec03:37
hongbin_i can briefly explain the spec a little03:38
hongbin_requirement, bind neutron ports to container so that containers have networking03:38
hongbin_like a vm, it should have private ip address, ability to attach floating ip, has security group, etc.03:39
sudiptohongbin_, sure...03:39
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hongbin_the proposed method:03:39
hongbin_1. use nova-docker to provision an empty container03:39
hongbin_2. nova-docker will attach neutron ports to the empty container, so it has networking03:40
hongbin_3. has zun provision a container (called zun container), has the zun container attach to the empty container03:40
hongbin_by using "docker run --net=container:<container>"03:41
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hongbin_then, the zun container will have the same network with the empty container03:41
hongbin_because the "--net" option allow to create a container to join the network namespace of existing container03:42
sudiptohongbin_, why nova-docker?03:42
hongbin_sudipto: it doesn't need to be nova-docker, but it needs to be a nova virt driver that provision container03:42
hongbin_sudipto: the point is to leverage nova to do everything for us03:43
hongbin_sudipto: rather than re-inventing everything by ourselves03:43
sudiptoIngress in kubernetes does a similar thing...03:44
sudiptohowever, that's for a POD.03:44
hongbin_yes, consider it as a pod here03:44
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sudiptoand why would you use a POD kinda thing for a single container?03:44
hongbin_has nova-docker (or a new virt driver) to provision a pod03:44
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hongbin_has zun to provision container inside a pod03:45
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sudiptook - my confusion is -is this talking about the COE implementation of ZUN?03:45
hongbin_sudipto: no, it is runtime implementation03:45
sudiptoor you just in general want the containers to be accessible for  users?03:45
hongbin_i mean from implementation point of view, this is similar to k8s pod03:46
sudiptook got it.03:46
sudiptoPOD == 1 container in this case.03:46
sudiptoAlso is this an config option? or is it mandatory?03:46
hongbin_this is mandatory, otherwise, container will have no networking03:47
sudiptobut that makes us heavily dependent on nova to accept the nova docker or whatever virt driver we write...03:47
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hongbin_sudipto: yes, there is a hard dependency on nova03:48
hongbin_sudipto: however, we should control the virt driver03:48
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sudiptoTalking about a situation where consumers of zun - will have to get the nova driver from out of tree or something.03:49
hongbin_sudipto: we can develop a custom virt driver in zun tree03:49
sudiptohongbin_, hmm ok...03:50
hongbin_sudipto: i know it might be complicated for consume, but other methods needs to copy almost the entire nova to zun03:51
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hongbin_sudipto: at least, all the networking bits, which is undesirable03:51
sudiptohongbin_, hmm, yeah that's definitely not good. if unless we have any other alternative.03:51
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yanyanhuhongbin_, actually, agree with sudipto, maybe we should also consider other alternate if there is one03:53
hongbin_yanyanhu: sure03:53
yanyanhusince this is really a hard dependency on nova-docker03:53
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hongbin_that is true03:53
hongbin_let's leave it one week, and revisit it at the next meeting03:54
WenzhiI think it's Ok to depend on nova-docker or other virt driver for now, otherwise we need to copy code from nova03:54
hongbin_at the same time, we could discuss it further on the review03:54
yanyanhulets wait for more comments03:54
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sudiptoagreed, let's wait a bit and revisit03:54
hongbin_#topic Open Discussion03:55
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shu-mutousince renaming to zun is finished, it's time to create zun-ui subproject, I think.03:55
sudiptoJust one update, I have got my dev environment up - and i will push that code into my github03:55
sudiptomysql + keystone/rabbit + zun03:55
shu-mutouif you guys are interested in zun-ui, please write up your name at last of following etherpad. https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/plan-for-zun-ui03:55
yanyanhushu-mutou, +103:55
hongbin_shu-mutou: yes, i am ok with that03:55
yanyanhuthat will be very helpful for enduer03:56
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haiwei_shu-mutou , great03:56
hongbin_shu-mutou: i will submit a request to create a ui repo03:56
hongbin_shu-mutou: then we can start working on that03:56
shu-mutouthanks guys!!03:57
shu-mutoualso, I will invite someone from horizon.03:57
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hongbin_#action hongbin help shu-mutou to create a new repo for ui03:58
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hongbin_ok, nothing else?03:59
hongbin_then let's end the meeting. time is up03:59
hongbin_all, thanks for your attending this meeting03:59
hongbin_hope to see you all next week03:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"03:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep  6 03:59:57 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)03:59
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openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-09-06-03.00.html04:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-09-06-03.00.txt04:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-09-06-03.00.log.html04:00
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WuChenghello world11:58
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Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep  6 13:01:11 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:01
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Qimingjust started meeting in senlin channel, the meeting bot is working there too, ;)13:02
zzxwillI felt strange just now as I saw a meeting room in senile channel.13:02
Qimingyup, a mistake13:03
Qiminglet's get started13:03
Qiming#topic newton work items13:03
*** openstack changes topic to "newton work items (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:03
Qiming#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-newton-workitems13:03
yanyanhurally support13:03
Qimingtesting side, the profile context one is finally in13:04
yanyanhuprofile context patch has been merged13:04
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yanyanhuwill work on cluster context in next step13:04
yanyanhuand have proposed patch to revise existing test job in senlin repo13:04
yanyanhuto use profile context support13:04
Qimingokay, just keep working on it13:04
Qimingcan remove the working item related with cmcc?13:05
yanyanhuhmm, feel so13:05
Qimingdon't think they are investing on that13:05
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yanyanhuI think they are still using old version rally to perform the test13:06
yanyanhusince their environment is also not latest one13:06
yanyanhuso we'd better help them mirgate to latest one13:06
yanyanhuwill talk to eldon about it13:06
Qimingokay, thx13:06
yanyanhuno problem13:06
Qimingdon't think xinhui is online, I don't have update on health management13:06
Qimingno update on documentation either13:07
Qimingthe tutorial doc has pretty much what we have got today13:07
Qimingthat item on line 21 can be removed13:07
Qimingjust need to polish the wiki13:07
yanyanhuversioning support on policy/profile, it will be a work session in Barcelona13:07
Qimingbefore that, we can do some experiments now13:08
Qimingbase everything that should be versioned on oslo.versionedobjects13:08
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yanyanhuhi, ruijie, welcome13:09
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Qimingwe can remove the whole item and add a version control item into the FEATURES.rst?13:09
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Qiminghi, ruijie!13:09
yanyanhuQiming, sure13:09
yanyanhuwill add it13:09
Qimingcontainer support is pretty much there already13:10
Qiminga lot of features to be added though, but as a POC, it is working now13:10
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Qimingfinally haiwei has got cycles to work on it13:10
yanyanhuwe have a work session on this as well13:11
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Qimingmaybe (some of) you have noticed13:11
Qimingwe have added a 'dependents' column to the node table13:11
Qimingthat property will be deserialized and exposed to users13:11
Qimingwe will use that column to record that a node is being depended by another node (maybe of a different profile)13:12
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Qimingthe current usage scenario is that a VM node may be hosting one or more containers (nodes)13:12
Qimingwithout getting those containers deleted, the VM node cannot be deleted13:13
Qimingthis will be further extended into other usage scenarios in future13:13
yanyanhuI believe that field will be useful in more scenarios13:13
Qimingfor example, a DB node may be treated as depended by a web node, thus it cannot be removed13:13
yanyanhuwhere dependency relationship exists13:14
Qimingjust want to leave a note here that the 'dependency' we are talking about is pretty generic13:14
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QimingI was trying the ceilometer driver using opentacksdk recently13:15
Qiminghoping that we can leverage that metering service for container scheduling13:15
Qimingwe don't have to monitor loads on all VM nodes because ceilometer (maybe also monasca?) has already done so13:15
zzxwillUse ceilometer to meter the burden of each container?13:16
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Qimingwe just need to check the statistics from ceilometer, and select the node with the lightest node to run a new container13:16
Qimingnot sure if container monitoring is supported by ceilometer13:16
zzxwillGot it. Thanks.13:16
yanyanhuzzxwill, the burden of vm which will be used as the host for container cluster :)13:16
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Qimingstill need some time to understand the pros/cons of ceilometer doing load monitoring13:17
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Qimingour best hope is that it can do a good job in this, though I know some drawbacks not yet fixed so far13:18
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yanyanhuone potential issue is the metric data could be inaccurate13:18
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Qimingeven if users are not using ceilometer, they are using something else for monitoring, that 'something' should expose an API for query13:18
Qimingso we don't bother to do the monitoring outselves13:19
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Qimingyup, cpu overcommit is not yet handled well as far as I know, memory consumption may not be accurate13:19
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Qimingnetwork bandwidth consumption is another complex area, it is really up to how the network is set up (i.e. how many nics, which one is for business data ...)13:20
Qiminganyway, we can assume that the metering project can solve those problems13:21
yanyanhusure, that's why we want to rely on them :)13:21
Qimingnext thing is receiver support13:21
yanyanhuworking on trust building between enduser and zaqar service user13:22
Qimingyes, a soft dependency13:22
yanyanhubasic workflow is ok I think. Just some authentication issues need to figure out13:22
yanyanhue.g. the roles to specify when building trust13:22
Qimingyep, pls think of a more generic multi-tenancy support scenario13:22
yanyanhuand need more tests here I think13:22
Qimingright, also the authentication thing13:22
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yanyanhuhopefully, basic support can be done before newtone release13:23
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Qimingreceivers are not supposed to be reused across projects, right?13:23
yanyanhuQiming, sure13:23
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yanyanhuideally, each user should create their own message type of receiver(s)13:24
yanyanhufor different purpose13:24
Qimingokay, that is one of the rules we are not supposed to break13:24
Qimingalso security perspective13:24
yanyanhuright, that part need more thorough thinking13:25
Qiminghow much do I have to know if I want to trigger an operation on a cluster/node I don't own?13:25
yanyanhuto avoid potential security risk13:25
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yanyanhuQiming, that is problem. Actually haven't got a clear idea about it yet13:26
Qimingsometimes a cluster is owned by Alice, but she trusts Bob to trigger some operations on that cluster13:26
yanyanhuneed more thinking here after basic workflow is ok13:26
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yanyanhugood news is zaqar trust support works well till now :)13:26
yanyanhuas expected13:26
Qimingthe initial step could be very restrictive, we can gradually relax the constraints when we feel comfortable13:26
yanyanhuso we can rely on it to build our solution13:27
yanyanhuQiming, yes, that makes sense13:27
yanyanhustarts from most strict one13:27
Qimingif we work in the other direction, we will receive a lot of complaints in near future13:27
Qimingevents/notifications, we don't have them yet13:28
Qimingmaybe cannot get them implemented this cycle due to short of hands13:28
Qiming#topic planning for RC releases13:29
*** openstack changes topic to "planning for RC releases (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:29
Qiming#link https://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html13:29
QimingNext week would be the RC-1 release13:29
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QimingRC2 is 2016-09-26, 20 days away13:30
QimingI'm planning to fix two things before RC213:30
Qiming1. exception handling, regarding the interaction with nova/heat drivers13:31
Qiming2. expected/desired capacity, when there are failures13:31
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Qimingnow I'm working on the former one13:31
yanyanhuthese two things are not related to features13:31
Qimingyes, if all these can be completed13:32
QimingI'll resume the work on versioning support13:32
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Qimingusing ovo to control request/response/notification etc13:33
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zzxwillWhat's ovo?13:33
yanyanhuwe may also need a plan for features we want to include to newtone release13:33
Qimingalso need to sync up with eldon on summit preparation13:33
Qimingoslo.versionedobjects, zzxwill13:33
yanyanhusince I feel we may not be able to finish all items we planned before for newton cycle13:33
zzxwillThanks Qiming.13:34
yanyanhuin last summit13:34
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Qimingwhat's in your mind yanyan, regarding features?13:34
Qimingwe are almost there13:35
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yanyanhuhmm, basic HA support, message receiver, basic versioning support, tests(almost done), doc(almost done)13:35
yanyanhucontainer cluster(partially done)13:35
Qimingversioning is a bigger problem than we thought, --- because we got too ambitious13:35
yanyanhuQiming, yes, almost there13:35
Qimingcontainer cluster is a POC now13:35
yanyanhuQiming, seems so :)13:36
elynnbasic HA support means service HA? yanyanhu13:36
yanyanhuversion everything13:36
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Qimingnot perfect, need more work on network/storage13:36
yanyanhuhi, elynn, VM HA13:36
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Qimingmaybe also a very restrictive message receiver?13:37
yanyanhuservice HA is another topic actually, but we have provides some basic supports for it I think :)13:37
yanyanhuQiming, yes13:37
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yanyanhuhopefully, it will be there13:37
Qimingthe whole health monitoring loop is completed and working13:37
Qimingthough I believe there are things to improve, as always13:37
Qimingthat is the reason we put it as a design summit topic13:38
yanyanhusure. Further improvement can be done step by step13:38
Qimingbtw, we proposed 4 slots13:38
yanyanhuno much, but I think it's sufficient13:38
Qimingall working sessions13:38
yanyanhuhope we all can be there to have some f2f discussion :)13:39
QimingI'd like to join more sessions from other projects, interact with them13:39
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yanyanhulike, zaqar, taker13:39
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yanyanhualso HA I think13:39
Qimingmagnum, zun, etc13:40
Qiming#topic open discussions13:40
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:40
yanyanhulooking forward to listen to hongbin and eli's topic on zun :)13:40
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yanyanhuoh, BTW, I have removed integration test work item from etherpad13:41
yanyanhubut actually it is broken again after latest patch is merged...13:41
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yanyanhuthe reason is zaqarclient was not setup correctly...13:41
Qimingbut the integration fix is merged this afternoon, right?13:41
yanyanhubut I doubted that problem should be fixed in zaqar not devstack-gate13:42
yanyanhuQiming, yes, mysql service is there now13:42
yanyanhubut zaqarclient installing failed13:42
Qimingthis one ^13:42
Qimingwe have to install zaqarclient?13:43
Qimingaren't we interacting with zaqar thru sdk?13:43
yanyanhuyep. very appreciated for Andreas and yolanda's quick approval13:43
yanyanhuQiming, yes, but client setting up is part of zaqar devstack setting up13:43
Qimingbroken gate is always a high priority13:43
yanyanhusince we enabled zaqar as plugin, zaqar client will be setup automatically during zaqar installation13:44
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yanyanhuit failed during this progress13:44
Qimingthat is not something to be fixed at gate side13:44
yanyanhuyes, feel so13:44
yanyanhuthere could be some tricky things here13:44
yanyanhuwill dig it13:44
QimingI saw zaqar has functional tests13:44
Qimingthey may have some tricks on this13:44
yanyanhuQiming, yes. and I also noticed zaqar rally test job failed for a while13:45
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yanyanhuso not sure whether that is caused by the same problem13:45
Qimingokay, pitty13:45
yanyanhuanyway, will investigate it13:45
yanyanhuafter message receiver support is done, will add integration test for it13:46
Qiminganything else?13:46
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yanyanhunope from me13:46
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Qimingelynn, zzxwill, ruijie_ ?13:47
elynnno from me13:47
zzxwillme neither.13:47
ruijie_Actually, I got one13:47
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ruijie_I jsut registered a BP for supporting cluster-replace-nodes13:47
ruijie_from the TODO.rst13:47
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yanyanhugreat, thanks for working on it :)13:47
ruijie_So, I'm going work on it and try to figure it out asap13:48
yanyanhuany question about it, just feel free to ping me or mail me :)13:48
Qimingdon't hesitate if you got questions ...13:48
ruijie_Sure, I will :)13:48
Qimingor, better yet, stay on irc channel13:49
Qimingask your questions13:49
yanyanhuyep, using irc is better :)13:50
Qimingmail is fine, but sometimes it is personal or private communication, not the community way, ;)13:50
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ruijie_yea, I will attend IRC whenever I am free :)13:50
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Qimingthank you all for joining13:50
yanyanhuruijie_, or you can leave msg if we are not online13:50
Qimingtake your 10 minutes back into your sweet dreams13:51
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:51
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep  6 13:51:12 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:51
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-09-06-13.01.html13:51
zzxwillThank you. Have a good night.13:51
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-09-06-13.01.txt13:51
yanyanhuhave good night13:51
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-09-06-13.01.log.html13:51
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saggi#topic karbor15:00
saggi#startmeeting karbor15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep  6 15:00:23 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is saggi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: karbor)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'karbor'15:00
saggiHi everyone15:00
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saggichenying ping15:01
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saggiAre we waiting on anyone?15:01
chenying_I don't think so.15:02
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saggiThere are no items in the agenda.15:02
saggibut I'll start with15:02
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saggi#topic post repository name change celebrations15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "post repository name change celebrations (Meeting topic: karbor)"15:02
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zhonghuasorry, I forgot to update the date15:02
saggiHo, I see15:03
zhonghuathe last date should be 2016-9-615:03
chenying_Good news.15:03
saggiWe are now past the repo name change15:03
saggieverything seems to be working15:03
saggiSo I can say we've officially changed15:03
chenying_The fullstack tests seem not work.15:04
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saggiI know15:04
saggiI think I saw patches by yuval to try and fix it15:04
chenying_yuval did lots of work about karbor name change.15:04
saggiI know, too bad he isn't here15:04
chenying_hi leon_wang welcome15:04
saggiWe'll just say that chenying did all the work15:05
saggigood job chenying !15:05
chenying_Thanks eveyone did lots of work about it.15:05
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saggiyuval: You are just in time15:06
chenying_hi  yuval.15:06
yuvalhey, sorry for being late15:06
chenying_We just say you did lots of work about karbor name change. good job! :)15:07
yuvalthanks :)15:07
yuvalstill missing requirements patch which should be merged as soon as requirements cores finish review15:07
yuvalyou can help reviewing it: https://review.openstack.org/35337115:07
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leon_wangyuval:I have installed the OpenStack on Ubuntu,but the local.conf you gave me didn't work15:08
yuvalonce this patch is merged, we can merge the requirements change in karbor and karbor-dashboard15:08
yuvalleon_wang: replace every 'smaug' with 'karbor', should work now15:09
yuvalleon_wang: I managed to install devstack today a couple of times15:09
saggiHopfully next meeting we'll have everything in working order15:09
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yuvalleon_wang: oh, one thing15:09
yuvaluse these lines:15:10
yuvalenable_plugin karbor http://git.openstack.org/openstack/karbor refs/changes/91/365191/215:10
yuvalenable_plugin karbor-dashboard http://git.openstack.org/openstack/karbor-dashboard refs/changes/30/365330/115:10
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leon_wangyuval:thanks a lot15:10
yuval(it takes the karbor and karbor-dashboard with the specific change that should be merged soon)15:10
yuval(instead of master branch)15:10
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saggi#topic Generic database Bank implementation(chenying)15:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Generic database Bank implementation(chenying) (Meeting topic: karbor)"15:11
yuvalbtw, almost all of the rename job was done by the infra team, and they did a great job15:11
chenying_I have submitted a spec about database bank plugins. Plz help me to review it . That is the only thing I want to say.15:11
yuvalso, I guess thanks should go to them15:12
yuvalchenying_: sure15:12
yuvalchenying_: one thing. We onced discussed single site protect and restore15:13
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yuvalchenying_: and whether resources will be deleted or new resources will be created15:13
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yuvalchenying_: remember?15:13
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chenying_yuval: Oh I forget.15:14
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yuvalchenying_: lol :)15:14
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yuvalchenying_: we discussed that when I visited you15:15
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chenying_yuval: Do you mean the resore action flow?15:15
yuvalchenying_: yes, single site restore15:15
chenying_yuval: OK I know.15:16
yuvalchenying_: well, this is an issue we need to tackle, and probably mean creating new resources, possibly deleting the old ones15:16
chenying_yuval: IMO, we can do different work about restore action from the plan parameter.15:17
yuvalchenying_: there's more to just choosing the strategy15:18
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yuvalchenying_: the issue is, if karbor creates new resources, where will they be created? same project? different project? how will the tenant understand which were the 'old' resources and which are the 'new'?15:19
chenying_yuval: Ok we need think it over about it.15:19
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yuvalchenying_: and if we intend to delete 'old' resources - how can karbor match a 'new' resource to an 'old' resource15:19
yuvalchenying_: me, saggi and oshidoshi have some thoughts about it, just wanted to raise that into awareness15:20
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* yuval breathes15:20
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zhonghuayuval: what's the "delete old resources" meaning?15:21
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zhonghuarestore target is the exsiting resource?15:22
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yuvalzhonghua: consider you have resource A->B->C in a checkpoint, and you restore into a project having A->D->C . One option is to restore into a different project, or create new resources. Another option is to delete and create resources in order to bring the project into the checkpoint 'state'15:22
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yuval(clarification: even when you restore into a new project, new resources are created015:23
zhonghuaI think the most use case is only one layer dependency.15:24
zhonghuaespecially only for volume.15:24
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yuvalthat's it from me15:26
saggiAnything else?15:26
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saggiOK than were done here15:27
saggiThanks everyone15:27
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:27
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep  6 15:27:44 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:27
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openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2016/karbor.2016-09-06-15.00.html15:27
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2016/karbor.2016-09-06-15.00.txt15:27
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2016/karbor.2016-09-06-15.00.log.html15:27
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leon_wangso what's next topic?15:28
saggileon_wang: There was no next topic15:29
leon_wangif not, I have some questions15:29
saggiDo you have something you wanted to talk about15:29
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saggileon_wang: go ahead15:29
leon_wangi want to know why I can't find the rejoin file when install devstack15:30
leon_wangsorry, type on the phone so a bit slow15:30
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saggileon_wang: No problem15:30
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saggileon_wang: rejoin-stack was removed15:31
leon_wangwhat should I rejoin the OpenStack horizon when I reboot the machine15:32
saggileon_wang: If you already ran stack.sh you can just screen -r stack15:32
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leon_wangsaggi:that's it?15:32
saggileon_wang: Should be15:34
leon_wangsaggi:Also,I don't know what the "req" "body" "context" means when I read the source code15:34
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saggiIn the dashboard?15:35
leon_wangno, the karbor source code15:36
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leon_wangi found a lot of parameters in the python code which I don't know15:37
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leon_wangIf I want to create a plan then the API module will run a create(self, req),and I don't know what the req contains15:39
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leon_wangsaggi:and when the api module calls the rpc module,then what does the code go?15:41
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saggileon_wang: Could you send me a link to the specific file\line15:42
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leon_wangsaggi:can I send it to you tomorrow? because I can't find it on my phone15:43
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saggileon_wang: No problem15:44
saggiFind anyone on #openstack-karbor15:44
saggiThey all should be able to help you even if I'm not there15:44
leon_wangOk,thanks a lot,saggi😄15:45
leon_wangsaggi:it's almost 12:00 pm here so I have to go to bed,bye😴15:47
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saggileon_wang: Good night15:47
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sridhar_ram#startmeeting tacker16:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep  6 16:01:57 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sridhar_ram. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tacker'16:02
sridhar_ram#topic Roll Call16:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:02
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sridhar_ramhowdy all !!16:03
sridhar_ram#chair sripriya tbh KanagarajM16:03
openstackCurrent chairs: KanagarajM sridhar_ram sripriya tbh16:03
sridhar_ram#topic Announcements16:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:03
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sridhar_ramWe are heading towards Newton RC1 target ..16:04
sridhar_ram#link https://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html16:04
sridhar_ramjust two more weeks left to wrap up Newton16:04
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sridhar_ramnothing else to announce from my side16:05
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sripriyasridhar_ram: when exactly is the server freeze, any specific date?16:05
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sripriyasridhar_ram: meant tacker main16:05
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sridhar_ramsripriya: as agreed earlier, that would be Sept 15th16:06
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sripriyasridhar_ram: thanks16:06
sridhar_ram#topic Newton Release Status16:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Newton Release Status (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:07
bobhsridhar_ram: sorry late16:07
sridhar_ramsripriya: again, on the deadline.. the reasoning is, once all server patchsets land by Sept 16th we will have one week of buffer time to take care of any critical bugs16:08
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sridhar_rambobh: np16:08
sridhar_rambtw, s3wong won't be able to make it to this call today16:08
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sridhar_ramas always, we shd expect few last minute issues / tidy ups to take care16:09
sripriyasridhar_ram: ack16:09
sridhar_ramany question related to the deadline ?16:09
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sridhar_ramnow, let's go around the outstanding features..16:10
sridhar_ramtung_doan: team: can you give an update on alarm monitoring ?16:10
tung_doansridhar_ram: it is almost done.. Now, just need some minor updates.. if possible, scaling action could be fired in my spec...16:10
tung_doan#link: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/365435/16:10
sridhar_ramtung_doan: thats great.. i know many community members are pitching in..16:11
dkushwahasridhar_ram, tung_doan I am trying to test the patch with respawn, but getting some issue.16:11
tung_doansridhar_ram: thanks all :)16:11
sridhar_ramdkushwaha: can you elaborate ?16:12
tung_doandkushwaha: shoot please16:12
dkushwahasridhar_ram, tung_doan it looks respawn not done, even cpu utilization goes upto limit16:12
dkushwahasridhar_ram, tung_doan i am looking into that16:13
sridhar_ramtung_doan: one suggestion in this area, is to starting using audit-event logs introduced recently by KanagarajM and vishwanathj16:13
tung_doanother metrics you set the same, dkushwaha?16:13
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dkushwahatung_doan, yea16:14
sridhar_ramtung_doan: it will serve both as an enhancement and help debugging such situations..16:14
tung_doansridhar_ram: recognized it.. thanks sridhar16:14
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: vishwanathj: please guide tung_doan to add that capability16:14
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: given you are going for an all-in-one patchset .. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/365435/16:15
tung_doandkushwaha: i thivk the problem from ceilometer side16:15
sridhar_ramtung_doan: .. you also need to include unit and func tests as well16:16
tung_doandkushwaha: please try with curl -X POST first to know what happens16:16
dkushwahatung_doan, ok, i will try try with same also16:17
tung_doansridhar_ram: understand.. thanks16:17
sridhar_ramtung_doan: great.. i see this feature is coming together, it is going to cut close.. but i'm hopeful this will make it..16:17
jankisridhar_ram, tung_doan: also shouldn't there be a single abstract_drvier file for all monitor drivers?16:17
sridhar_ramtacker-cores: can couple of you sign up to review this ?16:18
tung_doanjanki: we think we already discussed that we should have an abstract driver for them.. could oyu elaborate it?16:18
sridhar_rambobh: given your previous monitoring creds, would you be able give this a scan ?16:18
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bobhsridhar_ram: I can take a look16:19
sridhar_rambobh: thanks!16:19
jankitung_doan, contents of this https://review.openstack.org/#/c/365435/6/tacker/vnfm/monitor_drivers/alarm_abstract_driver.py should be merged with https://github.com/openstack/tacker/blob/master/tacker/vnfm/monitor_drivers/abstract_driver.py16:19
tung_doanjanki: it is the same with ping, httpping16:19
jankitung_doan, yes, I have noticed that. Are all these intentinally kept separate or they will be merged in future/16:20
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jankisridhar_ram, your view on this ^^16:20
* sridhar_ram is looking up16:20
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sridhar_ramjanki: my initial thought is it should be merged..16:21
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jankisridhar_ram, +1, for all infra, mgmt and other drivers16:22
tung_doanjanki: i think we should sepaparat.. in the future, maybe we had a lot of function for drivers16:22
sridhar_ramjanki: .. only thing we need to be careful is collateral damage to existing  non-alarm monitoring like ping, http-ping, custom monitor drivers16:23
tung_doanjanki: *sepaparat --> separate16:23
tung_doansridhar_ram: that's correct16:23
sridhar_ramlet's take this specific item to the gerrit..16:23
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sridhar_ramjanki: good catch, btw!!16:24
tung_doansridhar_ram: I realize that when implementing...16:24
jankisridhar_ram, thanks :)16:24
sridhar_ramanything else of concern on alarm-mon ?16:24
sridhar_ramI'm super glad to see this community coming together as a team to help on this feature! you folks are awesome!16:25
sridhar_rammoving onto VNFC16:25
tung_doanok.. thank all guys for looking :) please continue reviewing it16:25
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sridhar_ram#link https://review.openstack.org/33979816:25
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sridhar_ramGiven where we are in the release window.. i propose we move this feature to Ocata16:26
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sridhar_ramThis is a critical feature and there are still many review comments to be captured, agreed up and .. then to be implemented16:27
sridhar_ramwe just don't have enough runway to land this16:27
sridhar_ramLet's make this (and NSD) as one of the initial features in Ocata16:27
sridhar_ramThoughts ?16:28
sridhar_ramtbh: what do you think ?16:29
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tbhsridhar_ram, Yup, agree, instead of comprimising on features it provide, let's have a detailed discussion and implement completely in Ocata16:30
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sripriyasridhar_ram: given that we are stilll implementing/reviewing existing rfes/bugs, good to move them to next cycle but we can continue to implement/review the features and patches16:30
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sridhar_ramtbh: sripriya: thanks.. and i agree16:30
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manikanta_tadisridhar_ram:  tbh : I do agree with you16:31
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sridhar_ramtbh: again, just so that we don't loose focus, we can continue the current scope penciled in .. to use Heat SD as the initial VNFC mechanism..16:32
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sridhar_ramI'll move the bp to Ocata16:32
sridhar_rammoving on..16:32
sridhar_ramtrozet: s3wong: provided offline status..16:33
sridhar_rammost pieces should come together by end of this week..16:33
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sridhar_ramdiga: did you had chance to try the patchsets in your testbed ?16:33
sridhar_ramanyone else tried vnffg ?16:34
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digasridhar_ram: I am contineously pinging to trozet about it but never got reply from his side16:34
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sridhar_ramdiga: I think he was busy w/ OPNFV commitments last few days.. he shd be available this week16:35
digamy setup is ready but need to discuss with him for testing16:35
sridhar_ramdiga: did anything fail explicitly in your trials ?16:35
sridhar_ramdiga: fair enough, you probably need an initial cheat sheet of CLIs to fire at this feature ?16:35
digasridhar_ram: yes16:36
sridhar_ramdiga: alright.. will ping trozet for this16:36
digaI am waiting for trozet to provide me details so that I can understand the feature & test it appropriately16:36
sridhar_rami know gongysh was also planning to try this feature out.. more eyes are better :)16:37
sridhar_ramdiga: sounds good..16:37
jankisridhar_ram, diga I believe it should start with creating a vnffgd and then a vnffg based on it16:37
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trozethi diga16:37
digatrozet: Hi16:38
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digatrozet: lets discuss on this feature after the meeting16:38
trozetdiga: kk16:38
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sridhar_ramdiga: trozet: thanks!16:39
sridhar_rammoving on..16:39
sridhar_ram#topic Newton Priority Issues16:39
*** openstack changes topic to "Newton Priority Issues (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:39
digasridhar_ram: wc!16:39
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sridhar_rambeyond major features.. please flag any issues that needs to be fixed for newton16:40
sridhar_ram#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tacker-newton-release-priority16:40
sridhar_ram^^^ etherpad is still valid..16:40
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sridhar_rambefore picking any Ocata features, please help out on this for next two weeks...16:41
sridhar_ramI also realized we need reviewers for tacker-horizon16:42
sridhar_ram#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/tacker-horizon+status:open16:42
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sridhar_ramplease review them as well16:42
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sridhar_ramSpecifically https://review.openstack.org/349755 and https://review.openstack.org/34777916:43
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sridhar_rammoving on16:43
sridhar_ram#topic Ocata Grooming16:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Ocata Grooming (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:43
sridhar_ram#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tacker-ocata-grooming16:43
sridhar_ramHeads up on Ocata duration..16:44
digasridhar_ram: when we can start the dev for ocata ?16:44
sridhar_ramOcata is going to be shorter dev cycle than Newton.. it is not the usual 6months window16:45
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sridhar_ramThe guidance from TC is to plan our work to be less than we used to16:45
sridhar_ramdiga: we can start by 3rd week of Sept..16:45
sridhar_ramdiga: in fact we can start to review / merge patchsets immediately after stable/newton branch is pulled16:46
digasridhar_ram: okay16:46
sridhar_ramLet's continue to start writing blueprints and informally gather ideas in the etherpad above .. so that have enough discussion ahead of the design summit16:47
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sridhar_ramIt will be great to use the design summit to make "final" implementation decisions and go into low-level design16:47
digaI will push my spec by tomorrow, due to Ganesh Festival I couldn't do that, but its ready now16:47
sridhar_ramdiga: is that for API framework ?16:48
sridhar_ramdiga: sounds good..16:48
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digasridhar_ram: :)16:48
mike_mhi, with regard to the EM module, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tacker/+spec/em-module, I'm not sure if caoyue is writing that?16:49
digasridhar_ram: how many talks are selected from tacker project to summit16:49
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sridhar_ramdiga: btw, for api framework, other projects have use a separate branch to develop the feature and then merge back to the master.. this is something we should consider doing to avoid affecting other features in flight16:49
digasridhar_ram: yep +116:50
sridhar_rammike_m: i haven't seen a detailed tacker-specs write up beyond that BP request16:50
mike_mJust wondering where we go with that, that is something I can help with, but not sure if someone else is picking that up.16:50
sridhar_rammike_m: let's check with caoyue and go from there..16:51
sridhar_rammike_m: can you briefly describe your "need" here ?16:52
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sridhar_rammike_m: that BP write-up is bit too broad IMO and it needs to be narrowed down16:52
mike_msure.  I'd like to see a EM interface on the VNFM so that a EM could interact with the VNFM.16:53
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mike_mlooking at the ETSI specifically, things like life cycle management for specific VNF's, configuration, notification of VNF/VFNS as they become instantiated, etc.16:53
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sridhar_rammike_m: okay .. we can put this as an agenda for our upcoming meeting and drill down a bit16:55
mike_mok thanks!16:55
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sridhar_rammoving on..16:55
sridhar_ram#topic Open Discussion16:55
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:55
sridhar_ramdiga: officially, there is a VNF FFG talk that got accepted for the summit16:56
digasridhar_ram: Gr8!16:56
sridhar_ramI believe there are few other talks like the one on OPNFV Domino that is going to touch on Tacker16:56
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sridhar_ramFolks - anything else ?16:56
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sridhar_ramalright .. that's a wrap!16:57
sridhar_ramthanks everyone!16:57
jankisridhar_ram, there is a bug to move to keystone3 in functional tests. Cann't find its url right now16:57
jankisridhar_ram, that needs to go in newton too IMO16:57
sridhar_ramjanki: sure, let's flag that into our etherpad..16:58
jankisridhar_ram, will do, thanks16:58
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sridhar_ramwe can catchup in #tacker as needed16:58
sridhar_rambye folks16:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep  6 16:58:51 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-09-06-16.01.html16:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-09-06-16.01.txt16:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-09-06-16.01.log.html16:58
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mmedvede#startmeeting third-party17:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep  6 17:00:09 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mmedvede. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'17:00
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mmedvede#link meeting agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty17:00
mmedvedeanyone around for third-party wg meeting?17:01
ja3I yam17:01
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mmedvedehi ja317:01
mmedvedeI have one item on agenda17:02
mmedvede#topic Jenkins Security-17017:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Jenkins Security-170 (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:02
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mmedvedeit was brought up that people deploying puppet-openstackci still have non-functioning CI due to the security fix in new Jenkins17:03
mmedvedeand it looks like the version pinning does not work for jenkins as proposed in17:04
mmedvede#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/35408617:05
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ja3quoting jar jar: how wooed17:05
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mmedvedeso maybe we should concentrate on getting jenkins config more flexible, as proposed in17:06
mmedvede#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/262787/17:06
mmedvedeasselin: are you around?17:06
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mmedvedeI'll update the patch, seems like there was no activity on it recently17:08
mmedvede#action mmedvede to update https://review.openstack.org/#/c/262787/17:08
mmedvedeja3: did you have any troubles with jenkins?17:09
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ja3I have not heard of any.  I'm not sure that we're caught up to infra yet in terms of how we configure that piece.  We might still be horsing around pre-refactoring in some areas.17:09
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ja3...but I also have been routing anythingn from here, and the -dev email I saw with [third party ci] today, same subject, to bob.17:10
ja3It appears that The Bob is still OTL17:10
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mmedvedeja3: if you have Jenkins <= 1.651.1, you are fine. For newer version you'll need to have some workaround to allow it to set environment variables from zuul17:11
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ja3always nice to know where damacles is lurking17:12
mmedvede#topic Open Discussion17:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:13
mmedvedeI might be unable to chair the next two meetings17:14
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mmedvedeso with low attendance, I wonder if we should cancel them17:14
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ja3not sure - depends what ramy is up to.17:15
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ja3if it's just the two of us, canceling (or not) won't hurt.17:16
ja3if ramy has some new 3pci iron in the fire, potentially a different story.17:16
mmedvede+1, I'll catch him later17:16
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mmedvedeja3: do you want to discuss anything else?17:17
ja3nope; Bob back, says we're not auto-updating17:17
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mmedvedeit is wise17:18
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mmedvedethanks for attending17:18
ja3prod is 1.642.1, dev is 1.651.217:18
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mmedvededev is not broken?17:19
ja3he says not.  I call that "intewesting"17:20
mmedvedeja3: ^17:20
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mmedvedeja3: ok, I got 1.651.1 from https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Plugins+affected+by+fix+for+SECURITY-17017:21
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mmedvedemaybe 1.651.2 is not completely broken17:21
ja3that fits the observed behavior17:21
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:25
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep  6 17:25:11 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:25
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-09-06-17.00.html17:25
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-09-06-17.00.txt17:25
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-09-06-17.00.log.html17:25
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stevemarping ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gagehugo, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, jaugustine, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, MaxPC, morgan, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek, nishaYadav17:58
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stevemar#startmeeting keystone17:59
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep  6 17:59:51 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:59
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:59
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'17:59
samueldmqhi all17:59
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stevemar#agenda: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:01
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stevemarayoung: i moved your thing to the end of the agenda OK18:01
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ayoungstevemar, not really, no.18:01
stevemarayoung: we will get there by 2:05 :)18:02
ayoungWe break the other projects, it is kindof like the worst thing to do18:02
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stevemarjust push the pause button for 5 minutes18:02
stevemar#topic Announcements18:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:03
stevemarrderose is now core :)18:03
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raildorderose, congrats :)18:03
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stevemarthanks rderose for your hard work18:03
rderoseyeah!  thanks guys :)18:03
gyeerderose, u da man!18:03
rderosegyee: :)18:03
henrynashanother rabbit bites the dust?18:03
henrynashjust kiddin18:03
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stevemarthere are many other great contributors helping make keystone awesome, you're all great in my eyes18:03
ayoungWe just lost another productive community member to the burden of code reviews.18:04
stevemarrderose: thanks for all your coding and reviewing18:04
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rderosestevemar: thanks man, really appreciate all of your support18:04
dolphmayoung: ++18:04
gyeeayoung, then try to write less code damn it!18:04
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stevemar#topic Release status18:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Release status (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:05
stevemarwe're in the RC period, so only critical bug fixes should be merging now18:05
stevemardocs and tests are always OK to merge18:05
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stevemarplease go and play with the latest master level and find bugs :)18:06
stevemarespecially in the PCI support :D18:06
ayounghttps://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1619758  should be on that list18:06
openstackLaunchpad bug 1619758 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Credential Encryption breaks deployments without Fernet" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Adam Young (ayoung)18:06
dolphmand rolling upgrades :)18:06
stevemardolphm: yes that too!18:06
stevemardolphm: have prometheanfire test it for postgres :S18:06
ayoungwhere is the bug list?18:07
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stevemarayoung: the only one targeted for rc1 is yours18:07
stevemarRC bugs will be tracked here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/newton-rc118:07
dolphm#link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/newton-rc118:07
ayoungdolphm,  thanks18:08
stevemari encourage everyone to go and triage some of the open keystone bugs18:08
stevemarmake sure we are not missing any18:08
stevemarthat should go into newton18:08
stevemaralright, done all the organization stuff18:08
stevemar#topic credential encryption breaking the world18:09
*** openstack changes topic to "credential encryption breaking the world (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:09
stevemarsome background on this18:09
stevemaractually, someone else want to take this one? dolphm? it's a lot of typing18:09
dolphmayoung: ?18:09
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stevemarwe broke tripleo18:09
bknudsondid grenade break or did a change have to be made to devstack?18:09
lbragstada change was made to both devstack and grenade18:10
dolphmwe broke everyone that is not following our upgrade release notes and attempting to upgrade anyway18:10
stevemarbknudson: we upgraded grenade https://github.com/openstack-dev/grenade/blob/master/projects/10_keystone/from-mitaka/upgrade-keystone18:10
ayoungyeah, firedrill18:10
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lbragstadit fails because if there are credentials in the backend when the migration is run - it will attempt to encrypt them18:10
ayoungSo...distribution of keys is hard18:10
bknudsondo you need to do this even if you don't have any credentials?18:10
lbragstadbknudson no18:10
stevemarin an attempt to make keystone more secure, by encrypting credentials, we are *forcing* an extra upgrade step for mitaka -> newton, you must run `keystone-manage --credential_setup`18:10
henrynashdolphm: so an offline migration fails?18:11
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lbragstadbknudson it's conditional if you have credentials18:11
ayoungdoing it right is pretty much beyond the scope of what Tripleo should be trying to do between now and release18:11
lbragstadbknudson https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/b47f10290ed83415149f3d2ab6b0dc64646e578a/keystone/common/sql/data_migration_repo/versions/003_migrate_unencrypted_credentials.py#L2618:11
* stevemar waves at EmilienM18:11
dolphmlbragstad: the error in bug 1619758 is not super helpful, btw18:11
openstackbug 1619758 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Credential Encryption breaks deployments without Fernet" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1619758 - Assigned to Adam Young (ayoung)18:11
dolphmshould fix that with a better message18:11
ayoungTo use the Credentials backend now requires a setup of the keys to encrypt the credentials18:11
stevemarayoung: yes, as it should have been from day 118:12
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lbragstaddolphm sure - we can catch that and report something more useful18:12
ayoungand, this key needs to be in sync across all keystone servers that talk to the same database18:12
lbragstaddolphm bug report?18:12
dolphmstevemar: ++ we should never have been storing secrets in plaintext anywhere, but since we're already in that business, we need to correct our behavior ASAP18:12
dolphmlbragstad: https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/161975818:12
openstackLaunchpad bug 1619758 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Credential Encryption breaks deployments without Fernet" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Adam Young (ayoung)18:12
stevemarlbragstad: https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/161975818:12
ayoungdolphm, that is what happens when you record bugs after close of business on a Friday evening18:12
lbragstaddolphm want me to just tack the fix on to that?18:13
stevemardolphm: what are the OSA guys doing?18:13
dolphmayoung: i'm referring to needing to encrypt things, and not let deployers continue to store secrets in plain text using keystone18:13
stevemarlbragstad: you can make the error message improved related to the bug, not close it though18:13
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dolphmstevemar: running credential_setup ?18:13
ayoungEmilienM, check me on this, the breakage was due to Tempest run, rigjht?18:13
lbragstadstevemar yep18:13
lbragstadstevemar I can do that18:13
lbragstadstevemar i'll leave a comment18:13
stevemarlbragstad: thx18:13
lbragstadstevemar andymccr is working on it for OSA18:14
lbragstadi already had a conversation with him about it this morning18:14
EmilienMayoung: tempest could not validate keystone without credentials18:14
dolphmstevemar: OSA is not broken because they're not attempting to upgrade to master or newton-rc1 yet18:14
stevemarayoung: yes, so we had to decide... if someone is not encrypting their credentials, do we break them on upgrade, or when they are using the API18:14
dolphmstevemar: at least, not in their gate or anything18:14
ayoungstevemar, the answer is "Neither"18:14
lbragstaddolphm andymccr was hitting some issues on some tests he is working on locally18:15
ayoungSo, lets get out of the way the real sin is in storing and retrieving credentials, and encrypting them is a bandaid (albeit necessarY) on a sucking chest wound.18:15
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ayoungYes, unencrypted is worse18:15
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ayoungso, we should have no-opped this from the beginning, and given people at least one dev cycle to catch up18:16
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dolphmayoung's patch provides a no-op credential provider, that basically doesn't require any configuration, and he's proposing it as the default. that would let operators switch to the fernet-based credential encryption provider later, but its probably broken by rolling upgrades now (?)18:16
ayoungthe dropped the no-op18:16
ayoungnow...I would be happy with having no-op as an option, but not the default option, as that would only require a single config change18:17
ayoungwe can live with that if necessary18:17
bknudsoncan we add a warning to say to switch it?18:17
ayoungbut, that is just me being selfish18:17
dolphmbknudson: i'd suggest marking the no-op as deprecated immediately to do exactly that18:17
lbragstadthe no-op thing will only work if there aren't any credentials stored in the backend18:17
ayoungdolphm, that makes sense18:17
lbragstadwhen the upgrade takes place18:17
samueldmqdolphm: ++18:18
bknudsonI like the deprecated no-op as a solution.18:18
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stevemarbknudson: but will the noop driver work?18:18
ayoungpasses unit tests18:18
stevemari think lbragstad has doubts18:18
bknudsonnobody knows if anything works.18:18
ayoungapevev said it failed due to a different problem18:18
dolphmayoung: the rolling upgrade process migrates plaintext data in the database to be encrypted -- that's not something operators can postpone18:18
ayoungsomething about entrypoints18:18
lbragstadit won't work if someone has credentials stored in plaintext and they upgrade18:18
dolphmlbragstad: ++18:19
stevemarright, the upgrade will fail18:19
lbragstadif they do that and then switch to the noop provider they will be return cipher text to the end user18:19
ayounglbragstad, won't that migration fail if there is no key?18:19
dolphmayoung: yes, you can't upgrade without running credential_setup first18:19
bknudsonare there grenade tests with credentials?18:20
dolphm"In order to upgrade successfully to Newton, deployers must encrypt all credentials currently stored before contracting the database. Deployers must run keystone-manage credential_setup in order to use the credential API within Newton, or finish the upgrade from Mitaka to Newton. This will result in a service outage for the credential API where credentials will be read-only for the duration of the upgrade process. Once18:20
dolphmthe database is contracted credentials will be writeable again. Database contraction phases only apply to rolling upgrades." http://docs.openstack.org/releasenotes/keystone/unreleased.html#upgrade-notes18:20
ayoungso noop really is not going to help, then, is it18:20
lbragstadbknudson now - but after the upgrade grenade will exercise the credential api18:20
lbragstadbknudson no*18:20
dolphmayoung: i was hoping it would, but lbragstad is right -- it's only useful if you don't have any credentials anyway18:21
lbragstadbknudson the credential api was failing to do stuff because it didn't have any keys to encrypt with18:21
ayoungdolphm, so I don't think there are any easy answers here.18:22
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stevemarayoung: are tripleo users upgrading?18:22
dolphmayoung: i'm afraid to ask, but what's the complexity blocking tripleo from dropping fernet keys on disk prior to upgrading?18:22
ayoungstevemar, they will, so we need to cover that, too18:22
ayoungdolphm, good question, here it goes:18:23
dolphmayoung: there's no reason to *require* credential_setup or any syncing if you can distribute them any other way18:23
dolphmthem = fernet keys18:23
ayoungTripleo does not have an easy way of distributing the credentials in a way that is not world readable18:23
stevemardolphm: i think EmilienM is looking into that https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1619758/comments/318:23
openstackLaunchpad bug 1619758 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Credential Encryption breaks deployments without Fernet" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Adam Young (ayoung)18:23
ayoungif it were just a single entry, then hiera can hide it from the world18:23
dolphmayoung: how are service user passwords and things distributed? or database passwords?18:23
ayoungbut the fact that it is a directory can only, at the moment, make use of a crude mechanism18:24
EmilienMyes I'm currently working on tripleoclient to generate the keys for managing keystone credentials18:24
EmilienMso we can use puppet to put the files on keystone servers18:24
ayoungIN general, Tripleo is Heat generating Hiera which is used to configure puppet18:24
stevemardolphm: the complexity is unknown :(18:24
ayoungso if the puppet modules can't do soemthing, we have limited tools available18:24
ayoungwhich means poor EmilienM is responsible for making everythign work18:24
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antipsychiatryDestroy " Israel" !!!!!!! They are antichrist !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are synagogue of Satan!!!!!!!!!!18:25
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ayoungthe keystone tooling assumes it is executed on the keystone node, but we need to generate the keys on the undercloud and then deploy them in sync to all the other nodes.18:25
ayounghence my Proof of concept using the undercloud's keystone to generate the Repo for the overcloud.18:26
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stevemarthanks infra <318:26
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fungi(any time)18:27
dolphmayoung: you should be able to generate them on either cloud, or outside the cloud, doesn't matter. it's a single line of python to generate a key18:27
lbragstadayoung if you do use the keystone tooling, is there a way to sync them after they are generated?18:27
lbragstadlike how osa does it with fernet keys?18:27
ayoungSo, changes to fix tripleo usually require 1) Puppet changes and 2)triple-heat-template changes.  In this case, I think a third change to generate the Keys might also be required18:27
dolphmi'm pretty sure mfisch has public puppet code out there to illustrate fernet key configuration and distribution without using keystone-manage at all18:27
lbragstad#link https://github.com/pyca/cryptography/blob/master/src/cryptography/fernet.py#L4618:28
ayounglbragstad, not a good way.18:28
dolphmlbragstad: don't even need to install cryptography!18:28
ayoungPossibly sufficient to get through gate, but not one I would support live18:28
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lbragstadnope just need standard lib stuff18:28
ayoungyeah, that is the easy part18:28
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lbragstadi believe EmilienM was working on something using that18:28
lbragstadgenerating the keys and storing them in puppet somewhere?18:29
stevemarwhile EmilienM hacks on his PoC, are there any other avenues we should look at ?18:29
stevemarrevert the credential encryption? :)18:29
ayoungits not an impossible task, just one we should not expect the installers to deal with post Milestone 318:30
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stevemari agree the timing is terrible, which is why i put the revert on the table18:30
ayoungstevemar, so, I'd be OK with a No op solution18:30
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stevemarwhat about a noop and a fernet, but another command to actually do the encrypting of all credentials?18:31
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ayounglbragstad, what if we skip the encryption until the no-op provider is disabled, and do it as an offline operation18:31
dolphmstevemar: the problem there is that a database migration is required18:31
ayoungstevemar, that18:31
dolphmstevemar: and we can't do database migrations outside of the upgrade process18:31
dolphmit's not a standalone, at-will operation like credential rotation is18:32
dolphmor fernet key rotation18:32
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bknudsonhow about don't encrypt/decrypt if there are no keys?18:32
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ayoungdolphm, so, if the no-op provider is enabled, skip the encryption.  If the no-op provider is enabled, and encryption has not happened, report an error18:32
stevemarbknudson: oh, like at all?18:32
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stevemarlbragstad: dolphm is that possible?18:33
ayoungdo we drop the old column?18:33
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bknudsonright, currently it's an error if there are no keys, so the proposal would be to allow no keys to work (don't decrypt/encrypt)18:33
lbragstadayoung yes18:33
dolphmbknudson: that'd require either rewriting our migration history or introducing a new migration after the one that ayoung is struggling with to re-introduce a plaintext column or something18:33
dolphmayoung: yes18:33
ayoungok...what if we put the keys in the database or have a default key that gets removed later?18:33
ayoungencrypt, but poorly18:34
dolphmkeys in the database defeats everything18:34
ayoungand a default key in the config file does, too18:34
dolphmayoung: hardcode your upgrade to use a null key18:34
dolphmayoung: then credential rotate later18:34
Anticimex(as a deployer, hashicorp vault seems better than puppet / puppet-db for distributing secrets - or similar)18:34
ayoungbut...adding a key to the config file that we generate is probably easier than managing the repo...18:34
bretonthe situation with requiring keys is also bad because the keys will be in the backend in the next cycle (i hope)18:35
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ayoungAnticimex, we are not even using the puppet mechanism here18:35
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EmilienMthis is the link of my PoC https://review.openstack.org/366287 (it's only a start and unit tests will fail but save the URL)18:35
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* lbragstad starred18:36
dolphmayoung: EmilienM: seriously, hardcode tripleo to drop two credentials keys on disk that are just a bunch of nulls 'AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA='18:36
EmilienMI also need to patch puppet-keystone and tripleo but I'll do it after my terrible dentist apt :(18:37
dolphmayoung: EmilienM: finish the upgrade, and then at your leisure when running newton, you can rotate new keys in with credential_setup18:37
ayoungdolphm, that is essentially what EmilienM is saying, only actually generating a key instead.  Its the file managment that is the fireddrill here18:37
dolphmor in a future release when you solve the syncing problem18:37
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ayoungbut if Tripleo has to do it, everyone will have to, and keystone will have broken the world18:37
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dolphmayoung: i assume the complexity in the file management is in coordinating the contents of the files?18:37
bknudsonit would be great if tripleo was reporting CI failures18:38
dolphmnot in writing a file with a known value18:38
lbragstadi imagine osa is going to use the same mechanism that it uses for fernet rotation18:38
ayoungdolphm, probably more important is to identify the existence of certain files and get them to the servers.18:38
ayoungthe contents are always in sync across all nodes18:38
dolphmayoung: /etc/keystone/credentials-keys/0 should always contain AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=18:38
dolphmayoung: /etc/keystone/credentials-keys/1 should always contain AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=18:39
bknudsonhow do you re-encrypt the credentials with the new keys?18:39
dolphmbknudson: keystone-manage credential_rotate does the db work to do that18:39
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bretonthe requirement to have the keys before keystone starts bugs me18:39
dolphmbknudson: or keystone-manage credential_migrate? (help, lbragstad)18:40
bretoni already tried to address it in https://review.openstack.org/362785 with low-priority18:40
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lbragstadbknudson keystone-manage credential_migrate assumes you have keys on disk in order to re-encrypt your credentials18:40
lbragstadbknudson https://gist.github.com/lbragstad/ddfb10f9f9048414d1f781ba006e95d1#encrypted-credential-key-management18:41
dolphmbreton: that's only for the fernet token provider?18:41
lbragstadexplained in more detail there ^18:41
EmilienMayoung: sorry I have to leave now, I'm back in 1h3018:41
dolphmbreton: not for the fernet credential provider18:41
bretondolphm: yes. But i guess it would have to be done for credential provider when the keys move to backend.18:41
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bknudsonlbragstad: neat18:42
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stevemarbknudson: will your time be able to handle credential encryption?18:43
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ayoungso we could run the encrypt with a null key18:43
stevemarbknudson: i assume you guys are using fernet tokens now anyway18:43
bknudsonstevemar: arrrsula supports fernet tokens.18:44
bknudsonnot sure what's going to happen with this change.18:44
stevemarbknudson: i'm assuming you'll use the same mechanisms then18:44
bknudsonnobody has reported any failures18:44
dolphmayoung: does that make sense?18:44
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dolphmayoung: it lets you postpone the hard part, and we can document it as a minimum viable upgrade solution18:45
dolphm(in keystone)18:45
ayoungdolphm, I think you misunderstand what I am saying18:45
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ayoungwe could have keystone operate using the null key until one is provided18:45
ayoungif the key database is not populated18:45
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ayoungand deprecate that, too18:46
ayoungdolphm, we just need to give people breathing room, not maintain the no-change upgrade forever18:46
lbragstadwhy not just have tripleo drop two null keys on disk as /etc/keystone/credential-keys/0 and /etc/keystone/credential-keys/1 ?18:47
dolphmi'm a little lost on how why supporting insecure upgrades needs to be keystone's responsibility18:47
ayoungIf we had landed this first thing in the cycle, I would be right there with you18:47
ayoungit is purely the timing that leads me to want to compromise here18:47
bretonlbragstad: what would be the contents of the null keys? AAA...=?18:48
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lbragstadbreton yeah18:48
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dolphmbreton: it's the null byte base64 encoded18:48
dolphmwell, several null bytes :)18:48
ayoungThe insecurity was Keystone's in the first place. A Credential Database is a scary thing, and it should never have existed, certainly not the way it was implemented.  The encryption of credentials with a single key is still medicocre at best.18:48
lbragstador if there is a syncing mechanism in place they could be randomly generated18:48
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bretondolphm: lbragstad: :( why should tripleo know such implementation details about keystone?18:49
ayoungIt is not just Tripleo.  It is all of the installers that are going to be messed up buy this. Tripleo was just the one that reported it18:49
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bknudsonwe already knew about it because of the grenade change18:50
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lbragstadbreton i thought we considered encryption keys as configuration18:50
dolphmbreton: this is something we can document "if you'd like to opt-out of securely storing credentials in your database, then put these two well-known keys in these two files on disk to operate insecurely"18:50
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ayoungdolphm, I know it seems simple, but until you've worked through the mechanisms, it is a change that has significant impact18:51
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ayoung"here are two file that have cryptographic info in them, but use defaults..."18:52
dolphmyeah, it seems like this is an option that could have been implemented before this meeting was over18:52
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ayoungwhat I did in my POC for Fernet tokens  would also work for the credentials. it just would be world readable18:52
ayoungWe broke it, we own it.18:53
dolphmayoung: if you're implying that keystone broke tripleo, i don't think that's fair to say at all18:54
ayoungdolphm, I am saying keystone broken Tripleo.18:54
dolphmtripleo broke itself by attempting upgrades entirely blindly. we write release notes, documentation, examples, configuration docs, etc, for a reason18:54
ayoungand doing so is OKish early in the development cycle18:54
ayoungdolphm, Keystone broke every installer out there that uses this stuff18:54
ayoungWe essentially deprecated no-op with no lead time and no transition time18:55
ayoungThe end state, with encryption, is probably worth it18:55
dolphmi've literally never heard of anyone attempting to upgrade without at least reading release notes18:55
ayoungdolphm, it wasn't an upgrade18:56
ayoungit was an install18:56
ayoungthat install used the credentials basckend18:56
stevemarthe install is fine, it's trying to use the credentials backend that failed18:56
ayoungand that fails without the keys in place18:56
stevemarit's tempest that fails18:56
stevemarits the tests *after* install18:56
ayoungAs I said, it is probably the right thing to do, in the absolute sense.  Just that the timing sucks18:57
dolphmayoung: an installation of master?18:57
ayoungdolphm, yep18:57
bknudsonIBM public cloud process is going to automate upgrading. We're not going to have people reading release notes on every change.18:57
bknudsonat least that's the plan18:58
bretonwhy... do we write them then18:58
dolphmbknudson: i'm all for automating it, but expect it to fail and to require maintenance to keep it working when changes to your moving target require additional steps18:58
bretongit rm -fr release_notes18:58
stevemarbreton: so when upgrades fail, we can point bugs to them18:58
lbragstadsome folks rely on them for their upgrade process18:58
bknudsondolphm: yes, we'll have tests in place and do expect to do maintenance when the tests fail.18:59
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stevemarfor most deployments, it'll be a one-time step18:59
breton1 minute left18:59
stevemarthat's the point of the scripts in grenade18:59
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stevemartripleo is unfortunately, not a routine deployment of openstack18:59
stevemarotherwise it would be a 1 line command19:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep  6 19:00:09 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
stevemarmove to -keystone19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-09-06-17.59.html19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-09-06-17.59.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-09-06-17.59.log.html19:00
fungiinfra team, assemble!19:00
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rcarrillocruzJUST IN TIME, phew19:01
fungilooks like we have a very light agenda today19:01
fungione proposed spec from jeblair (corvus) if he's around to comment on it19:01
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anteayaif he isn't are we still meeting?19:02
fungiwe can go through the other bits of the meeting quickly and end early19:02
clarkbI think jeblair mentioned he wuold be out this week?19:03
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anteayaokay thanks19:03
mordredyah - something about holes in his walls19:03
fungiaha, cool. i know how that goes19:03
anteayaoh yeah, something about vacation19:03
fungianyway, i'll channel him on the spec19:03
fungi#startmeeting infra19:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep  6 19:03:42 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:03
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:03
fungi#topic Announcements19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
fungi#info Reminder: late-cycle joint Infra/QA get together to be held September 19-21 (CW38) in at SAP offices in Walldorf, DE19:04
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/QAInfraNewtonSprint19:04
fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:04
fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-08-30-19.02.html19:04
fungipleia2 set up sprint booking for infra bug day19:04
fungilast week we settled on teh 12th, but it looks like that's taken for an upstream training sprint in #openstack-sprint19:04
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints#Upstream_training_Sprint19:04
pleia2I am ok moving to tuesday or wednesday19:04
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anteayafewer meetings19:05
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pleia2yeah, Tuesday is pretty meeting heavy19:05
clarkbeither day works for me though wednesday is slightly better19:05
fungianybody who wanted to participate in the infra bug sprint have issues with or a preference for wednesday?19:05
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bkerotuesday similarly heavy with meetings *cough*19:05
fungiand yeah, i'll echo the concern about meetings consuming most of tuesday19:05
pleia2ok, I'll get that firmed up today w/ wiki+announcement19:05
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anteayapleia2: thank you19:06
zaroeither day wfm19:06
Zara(weds is storyboard meeting so... don't do anything exciting at 15:00 UTC)19:06
fungi#agreed Infra bug sprint is being moved to Wednesday, September 1419:06
* fungi double checks calendars19:06
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fungiyeah, that looks right19:06
anteayayup, the 14th is the wed19:06
fungi#action pleia2 set up sprint booking for infra bug day19:07
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fungianything else on this? maybe at 15:00-16:00 utc during the sprint, we can take the hour to crash^H^H^H^H^Hpitch in on the storyboard meeting19:07
fungi#topic Specs approval19:08
pleia2or that can be when we begin19:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:08
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fungi#info APPROVED: Docs Publishing via AFS19:08
fungi#link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/doc-publishing.html Docs Publishing via AFS19:08
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fungi#topic Specs approval: PROPOSED "Zuulv3: drop variable interpolation and add nodesets"19:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: PROPOSED "Zuulv3: drop variable interpolation and add nodesets" (Meeting topic: infra)"19:08
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/361463 Zuulv3: drop variable interpolation and add nodesets19:09
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fungithis change seems to have superseded the one we talked about last week, and appears to have some mindshare at this point19:09
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mordredsharing minds is important19:09
fungiso i'm going to guess it's jeblair's intent that we move forward with it instead19:09
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anteayafungi: you added this one to the agenda though right? not jeblair?19:09
mordredthat is my understanding19:10
fungianteaya: yeah, well he asked last week that we vote on its predecessor, but then he superseded it with this new alternative before the voting period ended19:10
anteayafungi: ah okay thank you19:10
clarkbI thouight we talked about this one last week?19:10
anteayafungi: you explained before in -infra, just wanted the flow again for the logs19:11
anteayafungi: thanks for being willing to repeat yourself19:11
fungihrm, lemme go find it again19:11
fungioh! yes19:11
fungithere were two versions, he had linked the earlier one19:11
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fungiokay, so i'm going ahead and approving 361463 now19:11
anteayaoh okay that was easy19:12
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fungii forgot that the wrong (old) one had been linked in the agenda19:12
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fungi#info APPROVED "Zuulv3: drop variable interpolation and add nodesets"19:13
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fungi#topic Priority Efforts19:13
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fungiwe have some time, if there's anybody who had something in the priority efforts list they wanted to cover but were hesitant to put on the agenda19:14
fungioh, i know, we were going to discuss making the "Docs Publishing via AFS" a priority spec19:14
anteaya+1 priority spec19:15
clarkbI started the newton-xenialing late last week as we seem to be stablizing our image build/new cloud provider situation. I think nova is all done at this point. So the migration is getting there19:15
anteayaclarkb: yay19:15
fungii think we're needing some additional volunteers to help with the docs one19:15
pabelangerI should be able to start work on the AFS docs spec this week19:15
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pabelangerso feel free to assign me some tasks19:16
fungilast meeting mordred and pabelanger volunteered19:16
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fungiso that's probably plenty19:16
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mordredI think we can make the progresses19:16
fungii'll propose a change to add the two of you as additional assignees and make it a priority spec. just a sec19:17
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fungihuh, it also needs a review topic19:18
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anteayaafs-docs ?19:19
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anteayawhat a guess19:20
pleia2great minds19:20
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anteayacan we have more meetings like this?19:21
anteayathis is great19:21
fungisorry for the delay19:21
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/366303 Prioritize Docs Publishing via AFS19:22
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fungi#info Council voting will remain open on the "Prioritize Docs Publishing via AFS" change until 19:00 UTC on Thursday, September 819:22
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anteayano no, I loved it19:22
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anteayaa moment to actually relax with the team19:23
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fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Newton testing on Xenial19:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Newton testing on Xenial (Meeting topic: infra)"19:23
fungiclarkb: you were saying...?19:23
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clarkbjust that I started picking this work up again19:24
fungi"nova is all done" meaning their unit tests, devstack jobs, everything?19:24
clarkbsince the more pressing feature freeze make clouds work stuff has slowed down19:24
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clarkbfungi: ya for a master/newton change against nova their check/gate jobs appear to all have been xenialed where necessary according to zuul status19:25
fungii've been a little too out of touch with this one, so couldn't recall what was already running on xenial19:25
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clarkbbasically unit tests, docs, pep8, functional tests, and integration tests19:25
clarkbthen grenade will happen when we switch grenade to doing newton -> master instaed of mitaka -> master19:25
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clarkbI think I am going to focus on using the zuul status page to identify the current gaps as that shows me projects that are active and haven't been xenialed yet19:26
fungifor other projects generally, what's the status? are most of them doing non-integration jobs on xenial already but not devstack-based?19:26
clarkbthere is some work in progress to conservatively test some of the stragglers for neutron for example19:26
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clarkbfungi: correct. Basically the common "core" of python-jobs docs and pep8 unittests etc is mostly done.19:27
fungiand yeah, periodically sampling the zuul status.json is a great way to see what's running most often (though i guess you could parse it out of zuul's logs)19:27
clarkbthen any projects using the common integration tests also are done19:27
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clarkbwhere the biggest gap seems to be now is where we have all of the one off jobs19:27
clarkboslo messaging for example has like 30 jobs for this massive matrix of testing against different backends19:28
clarkband ironic had >100 integration tests that need modifying last I counted19:28
fungioh, or i guess you could get it from grpahite too19:28
fungiironic isn't actually _running_ all those jobs though, right?19:29
fungilike they just did some sort of matric expansion template and only run a handful of the resulting set?19:29
clarkbyes though its a fairly large subset of that matrix19:29
* fungi it typing worse than usual today19:29
clarkbits complicated enough that I handed off to ironic a few weeks back and asked them to sort out what they want to do there19:29
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fungigot it19:30
fungiany specific bits of this you need volunteers to jump in and help on besides reviewing?19:30
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clarkbwould also help if others could keep pushing patches to split the jobs between trusty and xenial as well19:31
clarkbits just going to be slow methodical work19:31
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clarkbI should probably also send mail to the dev list asking projects that have a lot of one off stuff like oslo.messaging and ironic and so on to do their own evaluation from their side19:32
fungicool--hopefully we have people interested enough in this (as it's a team priority) who might at least be comfortable with being able to follow the recipe from your previous changes to promose some more19:32
fungibut yes, an ml thread covering that would be helpful19:33
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fungi#info Assistance welcome proposing incremental patches to split jobs between trusty (for <=stable/mitaka) and xenial (for >=stable/newton) welcome19:34
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Info object at 0x7f5bbff76b50>19:34
fungi#info Assistance welcome proposing incremental patches to split jobs between trusty (for <=stable/mitaka) and xenial (for >=stable/newton)19:34
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fungidon't want people to feel doubly-welcomed19:34
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fungithat's just a bit too much welcome, even for us19:34
fungistill not seeing any last-minute additions to the agenda, so...19:35
fungi#topic Open discussion19:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:35
fungianyone have anything else of a general nature to bring up?19:35
pabelangerwe have a lot of clouds now19:35
fungii've noticed19:35
pabelangerturned up osic-cloud8 today19:35
pabelangerwhile bumping internap-mtl01 to 15019:36
fungibetween the additional quota and feature freeze, zuul is hardly breaking a sweat19:36
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pabelangerYa, things look real good19:36
pleia2pabelanger: really great work on all this, I know you've been putting in a lot19:36
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clarkbwe ran out of disk on our log server and oinly have 2 months of log retention right now so I am poking around to see if I can find where all of that disk went19:36
pabelangerI hope to turn on rax-iad back online now that we have a new glean release too19:36
fungioh, right, that19:36
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clarkbpabelanger: yes excellent work pushing on the clouds19:37
anteayapabelanger: nice, thank you osic and internap for the additional nodes19:37
pabelangerpleia2: np, happy to do the work19:37
zarolooks like gerrit still has memory leak issue, anybody have any more ideas on tweeking? or suggest another course of action?19:37
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fungii have a feeling one part of it is related just to general increase in activity. would be interesting to see if the upward curve in log volume started around the same time as an upward curve in our job volume, for example19:37
rcarrillocruzi thought we were being deffensive on bumping nodes prior to release19:38
fungizaro: what sort of details do you think we should be gathering to provide to upstream to help track down the source of teh leak?19:38
rcarrillocruzre: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/364101/19:38
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rcarrillocruzshould we wait for merging this?19:38
clarkbfungi: ya but I don't think we doubled our job activity. The first major thing I notice is that a lot of jobs don't compress their logs before uploading them19:38
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clarkband we don't appear to be compressing console logs anymore?19:39
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fungiclarkb: oh, right, and we only do a post-upload compression pass weekly19:39
clarkboh that would explain why I don't see compressed console logs from yesterday19:39
clarkbcompressing those upfront might be a good feature for zuul-launcher19:39
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fungiright, that's done each sunday by log_archive_maintenance.sh19:40
clarkbrcarrillocruz: we should figure out why infra cloud can't handle 10 servers before we bump to 5019:40
zarofungi: i've tried to provide all info i know that might help diagnose but we haven't gotten much help from upstream. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/repo-discuss/oj3h3JdioGs/37HTjJieBwAJ19:40
fungi#link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/puppet-openstackci/tree/files/log_archive_maintenance.sh log_archive_maintenance.sh19:40
pabelangerrcarrillocruz: So, I noticed some ConnectionTimeout exceptions on the controller, we should figure out what is causing that first19:40
clarkbrcarrillocruz: that timeout is likely to only get worse if we bump it19:40
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rcarrillocruzright, let's talk that on infra, because i don't know if it was due to sqlite or if you find the root cause already19:41
zarofungi: i'm welcome to suggestions on providing anything else that may help but i'm not sure i know what other info to add.19:41
fungi#link https://groups.google.com/d/msg/repo-discuss/oj3h3JdioGs/37HTjJieBwAJ19:41
zarothe recent tweek with httpd threads did seem to help though, so i'm open to trying other tweeks if that's the path we want to take.19:43
fungizaro: skimming that, i wonder if reducing our cache retention would help19:43
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fungizaro: do you happen to know what gerrit release gerrithub.io is on?19:44
zarohmm, i think flush cache should lower memory usage if that's the issue19:44
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fungiahh, there we go. looks like they're running 2.12-1426-g7e45a4619:45
zaroyeah, different version.19:46
fungizaro: good point. i don't know that we've explicitly tested a cache flush to see what happens with memory usage inside the jvm. i'll give that a shot in a bit19:46
zaroi'm wondering if we should put effort into upgrading instead  of tweeking?19:46
clarkbzaro: only if the upgrade is better ;)19:46
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clarkbzaro: its sort of hard to test the "make gerrit crash after 2 weeks of use" scenario though19:46
fungizaro: well, upgrading _is_ something we should put effort into, but we may still find ourselves in need of tweaking after that's done19:46
zaropolygerrit UI is still not ready though19:46
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zaroi'm cool either way, just wondering which way you think we should go.19:48
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clarkbI will admit that I am extremely wary of gerrit upgrades at this point19:48
fungi#action fungi Test whether gerrit flush-caches significantly reduces memory utilization in Gerrit's JVM19:49
clarkbthe last couple we have done appear to have caught critical bugs that no one else reported and upstream was unwilling to fix for siginficant amounts of time19:49
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clarkbwondering how we can do better testing on our end since upstream isn't able to shake the issues out19:49
zaroi would recommend skipping 2.12 and go to 2.13 but that's only in rc at this point. so maybe upgrade is prematue at this point.19:50
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fungiwe're unlikely to want to upgrade between now and release day anyway19:50
anteayazaro: is there a reason?19:50
zaroso maybe continue to look for memory fix until 2.13 shakes out.19:50
anteayaah okay19:51
fungii assume the suggestion for 2.13 is that at least some of backports we're running aren't present in 2.12 but only in 2.13?19:51
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fungido they release on a schedule, or have any eta on 2.13?19:52
zaroyes, i believe 2.13 has more fixes we need.19:52
clarkbI wonder if this would be a use case for a read only slave gerrit19:52
zarono schedule.19:52
clarkbbasically have it chase upstream gerrit master and we can see if it breaks more or less awesome than the RW master19:52
clarkb(thats probably a really complicated setup to keep running though)19:52
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fungii expect that unless people were using it as actively as the r+w master, we wouldn't really know anyway19:53
clarkbdb migrations etc nto sure how you resolve that19:53
clarkbfungi: ya that too19:53
zaroclarkb: can do, but yeah more complex setup19:53
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zarogerritforge does that for active/pass setup19:53
fungifor example, the big mess where we had to roll back (was it 2.10? 2.9?) only showed up once activity ramped up19:54
fungiso we could very easily have not seen it at all even on a full copy of our production data, because it wouldn't have a full copy of our user volume19:54
clarkbfungi: yes though it was trivially reproduceable on the dev server once we udnerstood the behavior19:54
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fungiright. just pointing out that we'd need a load generator that mostly mimics our usage19:55
fungino idea how hard that would be to build19:55
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fungithough it's worth noting that, at least for now, review-dev has the same size server as production, so we could just leave it that way and let people try to build a load tester that exercises it19:56
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zarook. well maybe think about tweeks we can make to avoid the memory leak until it's a viable option to discuss another gerrit upgrade?19:57
fungiback when our git-review testing ran against review-dev, i was sort of able to generate some of that kind of load19:57
fungijust by firing up multiple instances of the test script19:57
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zaroreview-dev load is very basic. not at all like review at this point.19:57
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fungithough that script obviously only tested git-review relevant interactions, and certainly not browsery things19:58
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clarkbya its always difficult to mimic your users19:59
fungizaro: i think we should plan for another gerrit upgrade regardless. there is a released version newer than what we're running, and we know from experience that the pain from running an extremely outdated version only delays the inevitable upgrade pain19:59
clarkbespecially since gerrit has bits of the ui still not exposed to the rest api iirc19:59
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fungiwe resolved after we got off our 2.4 fork to try and keep up with upstream releases19:59
pleia2I wonder if there's some open source test tooling for testing browser load, there must be19:59
fungiworth looking into20:00
pleia2I might poke around that20:00
fungihey! we managed to fill up the hour20:00
pleia2thanks fungi20:00
fungithanks everyone!20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep  6 20:00:19 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-09-06-19.03.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-09-06-19.03.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-09-06-19.03.log.html20:00
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* jroll pokes his head in20:00
jlvillalstart the meeting?20:00
ttxjlvillal: need quorum first20:00
ttxannegentle, dims, dhellmann, mtreinish, mordred, russellb, sdague: around ?20:01
jlvillalOh, different rules here20:01
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* edleafe gets comfortable20:01
ttxjohnthetubaguy indicated he might be late or miss20:01
ttxjlvillal: http://governance.openstack.org/reference/charter.html20:01
fungijlvillal: the tc can't meet without having a quorum present20:01
ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep  6 20:01:35 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
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ttxHello everyone! Our agenda for today:20:01
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ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:01
ttx(remember everyone can use #info #idea and #link to make for a more readable summary)20:02
ttx#topic Add 'library convergence' to Requirements mission20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Add 'library convergence' to Requirements mission (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/36350220:02
ttxThis is a follow-up patch to address one of my comments on the Requirements team mission20:02
ttxjust reached majority approval20:02
ttxany objection to merging it now ?20:02
ttxI'll take that as a no20:03
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dimsgo for it ttx20:03
ttx#topic Mention where the metric rules are defined/used20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Mention where the metric rules are defined/used (Meeting topic: tc)"20:04
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/34222520:04
ttxThis is a clarification of how those tags is actually applied20:04
ttxLooks like a good incremental improvement to me20:04
ttxflaper87: anything you wanted to mention ?20:04
flaper87nope, I'll address the typos20:04
flaper87if folks have questions, I'm happy to answer them20:04
flaper87I noticed amrith's comment but dhellmann replied to him20:05
dhellmannsince this is a formal-vote item, do you want to do the typos as a separate patch?20:05
flaper87so, I think I'm good20:05
flaper87yup, sounds good to me20:05
ttxyes typo, patches are fasttracked too20:05
dhellmannunless you wanted to do the more substantial rewrite annegentle proposed20:05
annegentleyeah I think that follow up's fine20:05
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annegentleplural possessive ftw20:05
ttxI think "proposed" is valid, so amrith -1 is probably shallow20:06
mtreinishflaper87: how does the tool handle repos with a single review in 6 months?20:06
* mtreinish is just curious20:06
amrithnone of my concerns are of the ilk that require a hold up. my -1 is as ttx said, shallow20:06
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flaper87mtreinish: mmh, good question. I should double check that. can't remember OTOH20:06
ttxmtreinish: we still use common sense when applying tag changes, fwiw20:06
flaper87mtreinish: iirc, it considers the project as not active20:06
ttxwhich is why we end up reviewing the proposed changes20:06
flaper87but yeah20:07
flaper87common sense is still the rule20:07
mtreinishttx: sure, its just we are encoding that it's what the script does in there right?20:07
amrithttx, dhellmann, flaper87 just the observation is that the tool currently doesn't deal with patch proposal, rather with 'reviews during the period'.20:07
amriththe distinciton is subtle but one that exists ...20:07
dhellmannamrith : we're measuring the activity of the reviewer, right?20:07
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ttxmtreinish: patch just says we measure activity based on rules of the script. Not that we blindly apply script's output as law20:08
flaper87dhellmann: +120:08
amrithyes, dhellmann .. in that case you should consider reviews proposed during the period, not patches proposed during the period.20:08
dhellmannamrith : there is no requirement that a core-reviewer submit patches20:08
flaper87mtreinish: the line was more generic and annegentle correctly pointed out that we may want to have some of the current rules explained in plain English20:09
dhellmannamrith : I'm not understanding whatever you're trying to say20:09
amrithdhellmann, if a review lasts longer than the six months20:09
amrithit was not 'proposed' within the period20:09
amrithit was 'reviewed' within the period20:09
dhellmannamrith : a "review" is when I click -1, etc.20:09
amriththat was the distinciton I was looking at20:09
dhellmannwe count those events20:09
dhellmannthose are point-in-time, and don't span releases20:09
flaper87we don't count the proposed patches20:09
ttx"patches currently proposed for review"20:09
flaper87but the reviews made to those patches20:09
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ttxnot patches created in a given timeframe20:09
sambetts"have reviewed at least 2% of the proposed..."20:10
dhellmannI think the word order is confusing some people here20:10
dhellmannreviews need to be on patches that are open20:10
dhellmannthey can have been opened at any time20:10
amriththe verbiage is "of the proposed20:10
amrith patches", change it to "of the proposed reviews" and I think it will say what you are saying here ...20:10
dhellmannthe reviews need to happen in the period being measured20:11
flaper87if annegentle's text is clearer, I'll update the patch20:11
dhellmannamrith : you are using the term 'review' to mean what I think this is meaning when it says 'patch'20:11
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amrithdhellmann, in that case we're saying the same thing. I withdraw my -120:11
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annegentleI'm not sure mine addressed the proposed, vs. not proposed in the window of reviews20:12
dhellmannflaper87 : "review comment" might be clearer20:12
annegentlebut yeah20:12
annegentlemain thing is to write it like we're talking about it20:12
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flaper87dhellmann: would that still count as typo ?20:12
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* flaper87 can do a ninja fix during the meeting20:12
ttxok, let's try that and move on20:13
ttxwe'll be back to this one on open discussion20:13
annegentlesounds good20:13
ttx#topic Write down OpenStack principles (initial discussion)20:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Write down OpenStack principles (initial discussion) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:13
ttxtimeboxing to 15min20:13
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/35726020:13
ttxSo... this one is an effort to document a few principles we historically follow in how we write OpenStack20:13
ttxCredits for the original draft goes to mordred20:14
ttxalthough I removed most of the swearing so you wouldn't be able to tell20:14
ttxOnce we are happy with the draft, we should start a larger discussion on the ML before approving it20:14
annegentlethere's no swearing in OpenStack20:14
ttxBut I'd like to see some consensus on the TC before we move to that20:14
annegentleHow do we revise to be more welcoming?20:15
ttxI've not seen objections from TC members, but from the larger community, so far there is some discussion around the wording of the "One OpenStack" principle20:15
annegentleI mean, I know I said somethign like that on the review, but hadn't offered a true revision.20:15
ttxannegentle: yes, I'll come back to that20:15
annegentlettx ok thanks20:15
ttxOn "One OpenStack" there are definitely some developers who would prefer to see OpenStack as a loose collection of independent projects20:15
ttxI'll just point out that this was discussed and decided before (in 2011) by the ancestor to the TC, the PPB20:16
anteayacan I just ask whoever is doing the style reviews if we could get some consenseus on language before we have a lot more on things like case used in headings20:16
mtreinishttx: my only issue with it was already pointed out among the sea of comments there. Which is a definition of the 'OpenStack Way'20:16
ttxSo this is nothing new, we are just copying it over. That doesn't mean we couldn't change it in the future, but that's not the goal of this change20:16
ttxmtreinish: yes, that is a bit fuzzy and could use other wording20:16
ttxThe other one which seems to trigger reactions is the last one, "Participation is voluntary"20:16
mtreinishbut other than that I was happy with most of what was there (for what I could parse amongst all the inline comments)20:16
ttxwhich is seen as overly negative and could probably be rewritten in a more positive way20:16
ttxThe rest of the principles seem to be mostly acceptable so far, some wording tweaks might be necessary20:17
ttxlike mentioning "the OpenStack Way" without defining it20:17
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ttxshould probably just say "those principles"20:17
notmynamettx: please don't read my comments on the proposed doc as disagreeing with previous TC rules. I simply found the phrasing inconsistent and unclear. I didnt' advocate for a particular "side"20:17
mtreinishttx: well I have know what that is, (especially if it was an mordred draft originally) but I think definiing it would be useful20:18
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mtreinishI think we also mention it in the big tent resolution20:18
ttxSo I'll probably propose a new revision and start a thread on the ML to expose it to more eyes20:19
ttxI don't think there are strong objections to any of those, but the wording matters20:19
dimsttx : agree20:19
dtroyerttx: ++20:19
ttxlike notmyname says, they can be read in a lot of different ways and could use extra precision20:19
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ttxI certainly don't see any need to rush that. I see it more like missing documentation than a new thing though20:20
annegentlettx I wondered if a set of positive statements "If we have these attributes, then these other results happen" along the lines of "we know we are doing these things when..." will help20:20
dtroyerI do like the amount of input from folk with different perspectives.  we assume a bit too much tribal knowledge sometimes20:20
annegentlettx I do see it as helping us to articulate what is not known by all20:20
edleafedtroyer: +120:20
annegentledtroyer exactly20:21
flaper87dtroyer: yeah20:21
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ttxdtroyer: especially those that have been around forever assume that what they think is what others think20:21
ttxI'm guilty of that and I thank mordred for starting the effort to document those20:21
anteayaannegentle: ++ postiive statements20:22
ttxok, so I'll do a new revision, let it bake a few days and if it holds the water start a thread on the ML to see how it floats20:22
flaper87ttx: lol20:23
flaper87sounds good to me20:23
ttxCurrently assuming there are no objection to any of the principles from the TC, but that we need to refine the wording20:23
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ttxIn particular the "my way or the highway" tone of the last one is, I think, missing the mark20:24
dhellmannyes, that needs some work20:24
annegentlettx I only did a first read, and I would like to do a deeper read again... I feel it is missing some vision.20:24
annegentlettx like why are we openstack at all?20:24
annegentlettx sounds a bit philosophical I know, but it felt like it was missing vision and purpose20:25
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ttxannegentle: this is not a new thing we don't have, it's a write-up of rules we've been operating under20:25
ttxannegentle: I'd say the vision work is separate20:25
ttxannegentle: vision != principles != mission20:26
flaper87yeah, I'd firs try to write down the things we've been operating on, see how sound they are and see if they still apply20:26
flaper87we can let this evolve from there20:26
edleafePositive statements are great, but the occasional "we don't do it this way" can also be enlightening to someone coming in new20:26
jrolldocument the world before you change the world :)20:26
ttxjroll: yes!20:27
flaper87we can even trim it a bit and discuss some of those points separately if we find them controversial but let's first get some further feedback20:27
ttxAlso like all things we do, the form of this one won't be eternal20:27
ttxit will evolve over time20:27
annegentlettx I sense there's still tension between "are we building blocks for different types of clouds" or "a community that builds software for all clouds" (Hence the storage focused cloud vs. a compute focused cloud could give you a different set of project selections.)20:27
annegentleflaper87 you might be onto something, can the rules be collected in separate patches (they probably shouldn't be though if we really are getting agreement to the agreements we already operate within)20:28
ttxannegentle: I'd say this is a "mission" question -- and we have "interoperability" in the Openstack mission now20:28
dhellmannannegentle : do you think that tension goes beyond the question about whether we're talking about monolithic deployments vs. governance?20:28
flaper87mmh, but I don't think that belongs to the principles20:29
flaper87unless I'm misreading you, annegentle20:29
annegentledhellmann hmmmm thinking20:29
annegentleI'm trying to get at the question of "be governed or hit the road"20:29
ttxone minute to timebox20:29
annegentleWith governance comes accountability, so are we holding the contributors accountable? Yes. The deployers? Not so much.20:30
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ttxok, let's continue the discussion on the review and the future ML thread20:30
dhellmannbut isn't this about the contributors?20:30
annegentleSo I'll re-read and try to offer revisions with those thoughts top-of-mind ttx20:30
annegentledhellmann yep it is.20:30
ttxbut please don't try to pile up too much on this doc. It's n,t a code of conduct nor a mission statement nor a vision description20:31
ttxJust a set of principles beyond the "4 opens"20:31
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ttxIt's not the answer to all the questions20:31
ttxok, moving on20:31
annegentleyeah good point20:31
ttx#topic Add networking-cisco back into the Big Tent20:31
*** openstack changes topic to "Add networking-cisco back into the Big Tent (Meeting topic: tc)"20:31
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/36370920:32
ttxSome history20:32
ttxnetworking-cisco was officially removed from the Neutron stadium back in April20:32
ttxThat was following a decision by the Neutron team in February to "not vouch for projects that are purely interfaces to proprietary technologies"20:32
ttxSo the networking-cisco folks would like to be recognized as a separate official project team20:32
ttxFirst of all, like flaper87 and dtroyer said, I don't think we should fast-track that application on the grounds that it was originally part of the Neutron stadium.20:33
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ttxWe should consider if teams belong in OpenStack separately from decisions made in the past by a specific project team20:33
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ttxLooking at the proposal I have two concerns, which I mentioned in the review20:33
ttxThe first is the timing -- post-FF is a pretty bad timing to add any project team. The release contents is set, the Design Summit tracks are assigned, elections are being organized20:33
ttxThis should really have been proposed earlier, shortly after it was removed in April20:34
ttxSo at this stage I'd rather reconsider this one at the start of Ocata20:34
ttxThen there is my second concern, which is around the "level and open collaboration playing field" requirement20:34
mtreinishttx: also wouldn't this fall under the same thing as poppy, where it only works with a proprietary backend? Or because it's a neutron plugin does that make it different?20:34
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ttxTo me a project team whose deliverables purely interface with proprietary technologies violates that requirement20:34
flaper87mtreinish: that's the second concern :)20:34
dhellmannIt's a bit unfortunate that the dissolution of neutron is leading to this being a question at all. Having different teams handle drivers in different ways is going to lead to a lot of confusion.20:34
mtreinishttx: also I'm fine with deferring to O :)20:35
ttxmtreinish: yes, prettmuch20:35
annegentledo we know the original neutron requirements, are they written down?20:35
ttxOr in other words, should we provide open collaboration resources to a project that is clearly tilted in favor of one single organization contributors20:35
russellbdhellmann: ++20:35
annegentleagreed on timing, btw20:35
dougwigmtreinish: being part of neutron does not confer magical vendor openness powers.  it is not different, IMO.20:35
mtreinishdougwig: I agree with that. I was just playing devil's advocate with the second question20:35
sambettsthe bad timing is my fault, I only realised we had been removed from the big tent too when I dug into why I couldn't publish to docs.openstack.org any more20:36
ttxSo yes, I'd like to defer this one until RC1 at least, and probably the new TC elections20:36
mtreinishbecause in the past we were discussing a service with a proprietary backend, but this isn't a service20:36
dhellmannWe have several teams struggling with how to handle vendor-specific contributions like drivers, and they're coming to different conclusions. It would be useful to see what sort of commonality there might be.20:36
annegentledhellmann yeah I'd like this written down20:36
ttxBut I wouldn't mind a quick read of the current TC on the "level playing field" requirement20:36
annegentledhellmann and agreed to20:36
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dtroyerthe projects that have proprietary components are all still useful on their own in some way without the proprietary bits20:37
fungiit's a bit of an existential question on drivers in general. was the code "more free and open" when it was under neutron's governance than it is when governed separately?20:37
ttxannegentle: yes, neutron subproject acceptance policy is written down20:37
russellbi just think it's organizational bizarre and awkward20:37
dhellmannfungi : as a part of a larger whole, maybe?20:37
edleafeHow is this different than the VMWare or Hyper-V drivers for Nova?20:37
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ttxedleafe: it's not a separate team. If they were, they would fall under the same argument20:38
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flaper87edleafe: It might not be but the governance rules are20:38
dtroyeredleafe: they are part of Nova, and subject to everything Nova is subject to as a whole, with at least one exception of testing in our environment20:38
ttxi.e. the "Nova team" is a level playing field20:38
annegentle#link http://docs.openstack.org/developer/neutron/stadium/sub_projects.html20:38
flaper87I mean, Nova's requirement is not (was not) the same as the big tent20:38
russellbbut it represents the consensus in neutron team at the moment20:38
flaper87it's unfortunate20:38
edleafeI was thinking more in terms of Neutron kicking them out20:38
dougwigedleafe: the nova core team agreed to maintain those drivers.20:38
fungiit's possibel that the neutron stadium was masking vendor-specific teams under a larger non-vendor-specific team20:39
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edleafedougwig: Hyper-v was kicked out because no one was supporting it20:39
fungiso once those subteams are cut loose, they're suddenly exposed as vendor-specific20:39
ttxIn other words, if we were to accept networking-cisco, we'd have an "OpenStack project team" that is clearly a "Cisco project team" since Cisco contributors have access to more data than other contributors20:39
dtroyerfungi: isn't that what led to its undoing?20:39
dhellmannfungi : likely. do we see that in the other teams with vendor-specific drivers?20:39
cburgessfungi I'm pretty sure it was doing exactly like. But then I think you have a similar thing in cinder and nova with some of their driver teams as well.20:39
russellbfungi: of course it was20:39
edleafeThey wer eonly let back in when there were resources from Microsoft and others20:39
russellbnaturally, for any vendor driver ...20:39
dhellmannttx: yes, that's right, I don't think I could vote to accept this as a standalone team :-(20:40
russellbi'd ask this another way ... do vendor drivers belong "in" OpenStack?20:40
fungidtroyer: i'm mostly curious because neutron's stadium governance model is at least suprtficially to infra's council model20:40
edleafeIOW, Nova will not support it if the vendor support disappears20:40
sdagueso... honestly the bigger concern is that, correct me if I'm wrong, in neutron drivers can actually change the API in substantial ways20:40
* fungi really can't type today20:40
dhellmannrussellb : I would like to have them all in-tree, or at least in repos accepted by the parent project team.20:40
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russellbdhellmann: agreed20:41
sambettsin regards to openness, all our code and libraries are apache 2.0 opensource, and though we right now have mostly developers from Cisco, we are unbias to code contributions from anywhere20:41
flaper87dhellmann: ++20:41
persiaIs it important that it is a single vendor, or that the back end is not open, or only if both apply?20:41
russellbsdague: some have in the past, though it's frowned upon these days20:41
dhellmannpersia : the closed backend is more important, imho20:41
sdaguerussellb: do we know where this driver falls on that line?20:41
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russellbin terms of hacking the API?  i don't.  sambetts, does networking-cisco add custom REST APIs?20:41
dhellmannpersia : i have to have access to gear to test, and I have to have access to new project feature information that might not be public to develop20:41
ttxsambetts: but contributors from Cisco happen to have access to the code of the black box you're interfacing with... which gives them a clear advantage20:41
fungilack of an open backend means nobody can test changes to the driver adequately unless they buy/license the target backend20:41
flaper87sdague: not sure that's the biggest concern, tbh.20:41
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ttxsambetts: unless you end up providing every potential contributor with the appliances source code and test hardware20:42
ttxsambetts: the end result will be that only Cisco will contribute to that team, and that team will forever be single-vendor20:42
cburgessttx sambetts how is this different from most of the cinder drivers? Is the difference the fact that this is *out of tree* from an already accepted project?20:43
ttxI don't see the point of putting that under OpenStack governance20:43
dhellmannrather than rejecting this, I would prefer that we work with the neutron team to reverse the dissolution decision20:43
russellbi think the more valuable conversation here is trying to figure out if we can make driver handling more consistent in openstack20:43
flaper87russellb: dhellmann ++20:43
dhellmanncburgess : yes20:43
dougwigdhellmann: that's not likely to happen.20:43
russellbbecause this is going to come up 25 times20:43
fungialso that makes for some rather slow turn-around on adding new contributors if they do. for example i may want to propose some mass changes for a particular bug across many projects. i wouldn't be able to locally test my changes for that particular repo without some significant turn-around time to get the required hardware20:43
russellbjust for neutron20:43
ttxSo, let's use the delay to have a larger discussion about vendor drivers in OpenStack20:43
ttxand try to present a coherent front20:43
flaper87sounds good to me20:44
anteayadhellmann: I think that ship sailed when neutron decided to make driver testing optional20:44
dhellmanndougwig : does neutron have a stable driver API?20:44
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sambettswe have documented open APIs for our hardware, and I don't see why someone unrelated to Cisco who has a peice of our hardware couldn't contribute a feature they want20:44
russellbhas been getting much better lately20:44
annegentleI think this is about consistency in treatment of driver teams -- the conversation about backports comes to mind as well.20:44
dhellmannsambetts : could I do the same for an unreleased piece of hardware?20:45
dougwigdhellmann: even simple requirements bumps can break things.  and with 30+ drivers, and drive-by vendor contributors, it was a lot of work even to kick out the stuff that had gone idle. that solution doesn't scale.20:45
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ttxsambetts: they would still have a harder time than a Cisco developer with access to the black box code, and factory-cost hardware20:45
sambettsdhellmann: we wouldn't consider putting in there20:45
dhellmanndougwig : is the neutron team accepting any of these drivers, or are they all being pushed out? what's the dividing line?20:46
sambettsand we strive to provide third party CI for all hardware backends we support20:46
ttxWe need to move on20:46
russellbeverything is split, except for the "default" stuff, which was honestly too embedded to be split out (my take on how it went down)20:46
dougwigdhellmann: the ref implementation (ovs & lb) are all that remain.  the plugin interfaces are being maintained as stable interfaces.20:46
russellbnobody motivated enough to extract that stuff20:46
ttxMy take is, we need to delay this until Ocata is started and the var is open to new project teams again (and the next TC is elected)20:46
fungisambetts: on the requirements change point, avoiding involvement in community processes which are hard to implement because your backend is proprietary doesn't make for a compelling argument for why it should be an official community project20:46
cburgessttx I think you put too much on this whole access to the black box. I'm a cisco employee and I can't just go download the source for how one of our devices works. It doesn't work that way.20:46
dhellmannttx: I agree with waiting.20:46
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ttxAnd we should take the time until then to reflect back on vendor drivers everywhere and present a more coherent front20:47
russellbttx: +1, especially to the latter point20:47
* flaper87 nods20:47
fungicburgess: i find that (and all proprietary software) unfortunate20:47
ttxok, next topic20:47
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dtroyercburgess: it really is not about individual contributors as much as it is about simply being open and accessible and available20:47
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ttx#topic Add ocata goal "support python 3.5"20:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Add ocata goal "support python 3.5" (Meeting topic: tc)"20:47
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/34906920:48
ttxLast week we explored three ideas -- making unit tests an optional part of the goal, rewrite it with full-stack-testing as an objective, or find some other goal entirely20:48
ttxnotmyname said dropping unit tests would not really make the goal easier for Swift, so there seems to be little point in doing  that20:48
ttxsdague said he would explore a py35 full-stack-testing goal variant but was worried about lack of activity drivers, since most py35-pushing folks are not involved with devstack/gate20:48
ttx... and no alternate goal was proposed20:49
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ttxSo this is a bit stalled20:49
sdaguettx: well, it was feature freeze week :)20:49
sdague+ holiday20:49
dhellmannttx: haypo has agreed to lead a team of helpers. I'll be on the team. We can recruit others.20:49
russellbthis goal still seems to obvious to me ... i'm not sure what to say20:49
dhellmannwhere helpers != "we're going to write your patches for you"20:49
ttxsdague: yes, fair. Happy to put it back on agenda next week. Not much time left today anyway20:49
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sdaguerussellb: I think the end goal is good for sure20:50
sdagueI guess the question is if it's just implementation path, do we figure out how to fuzz that and agree on the end goal20:50
dhellmannI think it would be a mistake to say we can only have goals where we have a set of people "driving" the work. The point is to get project teams to integrate these things with their existing work.20:50
russellbi think it's good enough to just say "yes, we agree this end goal is important, and we should try"20:50
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sdaguedhellmann: I think that assumes that it's complete rote20:51
sdagueI'm not convinced we're at the completely rote stage here20:51
ttxpersonally I'd rather have goals that can be clearly "completed", as opposed to say "advance the state of py35" and have everyone evaluate what "some progress" means20:51
notmynamerussellb: projects work on a goal and report progress?20:51
dhellmannsdague : we have seen over and over that having a central team try to do work across all repos does not scale.20:52
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jrollsdague: I wonder if you might get more folks hacking on nova/devstack/gate than you think, if only because so many projects full stack testing depends on nova working20:52
ttxbut I also agree this one as proposed is a bit assymetric for that20:52
dhellmannjroll : right20:52
sdaguejroll: that's fine20:52
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mtreinishdhellmann: it's more than just an isolated thing in each project. We've had projects declare they're py3 compat on the ML but it's just unit tests. No one is driving getting a dsvm job running or any of the cross project work20:52
sdaguemy instinct is that it won't just happen, but I'm happy to be proved wrong20:52
dtroyerttx: I do think it is worth us saying this is a high community priority, as a lot of the decision makers in corporate sponsors watch these things… this is one way to influence how resources get allcated20:53
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dhellmannmtreinish : that is the entire point of this goal, to make all of that happen20:53
ttxOK, I propose to put it back on agenda next week (hopefully first item) and have people more ready to discuss it then20:53
flaper87ttx: sounds good. We don't have much time left anyway20:53
dhellmannplease be ready to say something more specific than "this won't work"20:53
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sdaguedhellmann: ok, but which project team owns the sunk shared cost? Like getting the first job running is going to be 10x the cost of the second project joining in.20:53
ttxdhellmann: ++20:53
mtreinishdhellmann: except nothing in the goal has people stepping up to do that work. Like d-g is an infra thing and devstack is an qa thing, but who owns getting things running with py320:53
mtreinishthere is a lot of effort in getting things running in the gate on all projects, and it's not owned by a particular silo20:54
dhellmannsdague : do we need to pick someone up front?20:54
ttxmtreinish: a bit of everyone, that's the idea with the goals20:54
sdaguemtreinish: ++20:54
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ttxif we know who will do the work, what's the point in inspiring people to work on a thing20:54
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dims"tiger team"!20:54
sdaguettx: is that the point?20:54
sdagueI thought the point was getting the thing done in a timely manner?20:55
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flaper87sdague: well, that's one of the points.20:55
sdagueif the point is to recruit new folks to a task, that's fine20:55
flaper87If we have a goal, we also need to move it forward20:55
ttxone of the points at least20:55
clarkbmtreinish: there shouldn't be anything required from d-g to run openstack under python320:55
clarkbmtreinish: fwiw20:55
sdaguebut it is actually orthoginal to timely manner20:55
mtreinishclarkb: well flipping a devstack switch probably20:55
mtreinishclarkb: or in project-config20:55
ttxok, need some time for open discussion, so we'll continue this one next week (or on the review in the mean time)20:56
ttx#topic Open discussion20:56
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:56
mtreinishclarkb: but it's a minimal change in code. It's more about tracking things and making it work. Which was kinda my point20:56
flaper87patch updated20:56
ttxI announced the first PTG date/location (Atlanta, Feb 20-24, 2017) in a ML thread20:56
clarkbya project-config might need to be edited to flip an env var, just pointing out python3 vs 2 isn't really something we care about when cloning git repos and collecting logs20:56
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-September/102981.html20:56
flaper87ttx: w00h000020:56
ttxOn the Design Summit side, it will soon be time to plan the cross-project workshop track20:56
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ttxTraditionally we had 7 time slots and used 3 parallel rooms20:56
ttxFor this one, as sdague suggested we'll likely scale it back a little to preserve space for the "normal" sessions20:56
ttxi.e. use only 6 time slots instead of 7 (we can still use 3 rooms, or more if needed)20:57
flaper87happy to help with that, btw!20:57
ttxdoes 6 time slots sound good ?20:57
annegentle#info PTG date/location (Atlanta, Feb 20-24, 2017)20:57
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flaper87annegentle: +120:58
sdaguettx: honestly, I think we should see if we even have 6 x 3 sessions worth having20:58
sdagueI feel like we got very mixed at the bottom of the list last time20:58
fungii guess the minimal registration cost mentioned in the faq will have a specific number associated with it soon?20:58
mtreinishttx: how does that effect scheduling. like how many sessions are there in a day?20:58
amrithttx, I've put my questions into https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gMPYW40Fmq and referenced it in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/342225/8/reference/tags/team_diverse-affiliation.rst; not sure if there's time to discuss here and now.20:58
ttxcan be 6x (2 to 4 based on parallelization needs)20:58
ttxmtreinish: not sure I understand your question, but we can take it offline20:59
ttxflaper87: your patch is up ?20:59
flaper87ttx: yup20:59
annegentleamrith you have a good point on change set nomenclature vs review20:59
annegentlevs patch set20:59
ttxPlease rereview https://review.openstack.org/#/c/342225/20:59
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anteayaannegentle: the gerrit wording is change and change set21:00
ttxIf it gets to majority I'll just approve it, otherwise it will be back next week21:00
annegentleanteaya ah, good to know21:00
anteayaannegentle: patch review CR and others are socialization terms21:00
amrithttx, to be clear, my question isn't a -1, rather a request to clarify.21:00
ttxand ... we are out of time21:00
annegentle:) kidding21:00
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mtreinishttx: what's the diff between 6 session vs 7? Does that mean we have 1 non cross project session on the tues? I'm not sure I see what diff it makes21:00
flaper87bye folks!21:00
flaper87thanks everyone21:00
sambettsthanks :D21:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep  6 21:00:53 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-09-06-20.01.html21:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-09-06-20.01.txt21:00
sdaguemtreinish: the xp sessions bleed into wed21:00
ttxmtreinish: -> #openstack-dev21:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-09-06-20.01.log.html21:00
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oneswigReady blairo?21:01
oneswigTake it away, Mr Music :-)21:01
b1airo#startmeeting scientific-wg21:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep  6 21:01:49 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is b1airo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg'21:01
* anteaya pictures b1airo as Mr Music21:02
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oneswigan easy picture!21:02
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priteauGood evening everyone21:02
b1airoheh, you happen to have that agenda handy oneswig ?21:02
oneswigcoming right up21:02
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oneswig#link agenda for today's meeting https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_working_group#IRC_Meeting_September_6th_201621:02
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b1airoand inline...21:03
b1airoWG activity space requested at the Barcelona summit.21:03
b1airoBoF for poster sessions and lightning talks21:03
b1airoWorking group meeting for progress review and planning21:03
b1airoPossible venue for social (Thursday night)21:03
b1airoSupercomputing preparation21:03
b1airoDiscussion topics for SC panel session21:03
b1airoPriority items for SC BoF (which was accepted!)21:03
b1airoOther business21:03
b1airoDiary date - OpenStack/HPC meetup in London on 1st December21:03
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b1airoCloud-native applications for research computing - target list for App Ecosystem WG21:03
b1airohmm sorry about the formatting21:04
oneswigAh, forgot you preferred it that way21:04
b1airo#topic WG activity space requested at the Barcelona summit21:04
*** openstack changes topic to "WG activity space requested at the Barcelona summit (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:04
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oneswigI put in for two sessions but perhaps we should request another based on user-committee mails today21:04
oneswigHi rbudden!21:04
rbuddensorry, i’m a tad late!21:05
oneswigQuestion was whether we could get a BoF session together, and whether it would overspill one room into two21:05
oneswigNo use if they are not close by though21:05
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b1airoi'm not overly hopeful, sounds like things are gonna be tight21:06
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oneswigThis session 2 weeks ago, martial suggested it might be good to bring posters - if anyone has one handy?21:06
oneswigblairo: it does.  I'll ask anyway, we have 2 sessions reserved.21:07
b1airoi for one do not have any poster fodder readily available21:07
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b1airobut i suppose there is a chance we could create something as an artifact of our joint summit presentation...21:08
b1airo(...need to ping wojciech about that)21:08
oneswigMe neither but that's a good idea21:08
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oneswigWojciech has tonsilitis, poor guy, will be offline for a few days21:09
oneswigSo don't expect an immediate response21:09
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b1airoi certainly like the idea of lightening talks in a scientific-wg bof21:09
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oneswigBut a poster from the Lustre talk is a good idea, and talks are also good21:10
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b1airoanybody present keen to talk about their recent challenges and/or wins related to openstack for science/hpc ?21:10
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b1airo(in a lightening talk in barcelona)21:11
jmlowemaybe, I'll have to think of something21:11
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oneswigI'm happy to talk on either getting SRIOV devices configured in a TripleO deployment or configuring Dell BIOS using Ansible21:11
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oneswig... been one crazy summer21:12
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oneswigNote as actions perhaps?21:12
martial(sorry I am late)21:12
jmloweI might have something in lightening form to say about deploying 300 nodes using salt21:12
b1airowas thinking that but maybe let's hold it till a later date when we have more concrete details of summit sessions ?21:12
b1airohi martial !21:13
b1airojmlowe, that sounds pretty interesting21:13
b1airoBM nodes?21:13
priteauI could give a quick presentation of the Blazar project and how we use it21:13
b1airopriteau, that would definitely be nice, i suspect a bunch of folks don't even know what it does21:14
jmlowepriteau: I'd go to that one21:14
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oneswigpriteau: saw your UI today on chameleoncloud.org, looks good, I had no idea Blazar had that21:14
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priteauthe Horizon support for Blazar that we have is half integration of two year old patches never merged, half own development21:16
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oneswigPatches that old, do they become like fine wine?21:16
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b1airodamn, australian access federation doesn't get me into chameleon21:17
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b1airoor mouldy cheese perhaps ? :-D21:17
oneswigOK it sounds like good enthusiasm for a lightning talk model right now, lets go with that and fill in the slots nearer the time21:17
priteauoneswig: some age better than others ;-)21:18
rbuddenI may be able to do a lightning talk about using Ansible in conjunction with the Slurm prologue to allow Slurm reservations to automate the setup of Nova Compute/OVS for reserving traditional cluster nodes to host VMs/Containers21:18
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priteaub1airo: we're only federated with GENI so far21:18
oneswigrbudden: sounds good, what's the impact on job startup time?21:19
jmloweb1airo: seems like AU/EU/US NSF federation should be a thing, especially with cloud resources21:19
b1airorbudden, a sort of dynamic slurm? that sounds neat21:19
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priteaurbudden: I would be very interested to hear about this21:19
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oneswigAll the more reason to attend the WG meeting then...21:20
b1airowe use slurm at monash but i'm not close enough to hpc queue admin-ing to have looked into existing slurm support for on-demand expansion/contraction of the cluster21:20
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b1airois there such a thing already, or just the hooks?21:21
rbuddenthis is all in the early testing phases but we have a few non traditional use cases where we’ve had to spin up large quantities of VMs21:21
rbuddenthe idea was to have Slurm feed Ansible the requirements so we could metadata tag the nova hypervisors and auto create host aggregates for the user on demand21:22
oneswigThe people at OSU use SLURM in a similar way IIRC, VMs are created for running each workload.  Seems like hard work for the control plane if workloads are short lived?21:22
oneswigI think they do it to inject the inter-VM SHMEM gadget21:22
rbuddenthat way they could do a slurm reservation and within a few min have the resources just show up inside the dashboard and have proper flavors associated with the nodes21:22
oneswigrbudden: so you salloc in slurm and nova instances are created?  Ooh.21:23
b1airorbudden, ahh with you now, interesting, catering to "i want my own environment / i need root" hpc users21:23
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rbuddenyep, exactly21:24
rbuddenwe use slurm for all our accounting, so it makes it easy to charge since the reservation is tied to a project/charge-id21:24
b1airoi would be very interested to see how that turns out, we have some of those cases here too21:24
b1airogrumble grumble bioinformaticians21:25
oneswigHow does slurm know how many resources are available to it, and what happens when someone else uses them?21:25
b1airoof course, giving them a chunk of a parallel filesystem securely is another challenge21:26
rbuddenwe have slurm tied in with pam, so only admins and users who have an active job/servervation can login to the nodes they have been given21:26
rbuddenb1airo: yes, filesystem access is complicated21:27
rbuddenthe majority of our VMs right now are gateway type workloads and they want access to distributed filesystems of Bridges21:28
rbuddenso they don’t get root on those ;)21:28
oneswigWe probably ought to move on?21:28
b1airofair enough!21:28
rbuddeneventually they can on our Slash2 filesystem because i’ll be implementing ticket based auth21:28
rbuddenso that trust is not at the client level21:29
b1airorbudden, how modern! :-)21:29
rbuddenfeel free to ping offline if ppl want to banter about it ;)21:29
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oneswigrbudden: might just do that21:30
b1airoyeah this sort of area would be good delve into more detail on21:30
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b1airo#action: take PFS auth discussion to mailing list21:30
oneswigIs anyone hungry?21:31
b1airohmm meetbot may have gone awry21:31
b1airoyeah, last dot point here was drinks/dinner in barcelona21:31
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oneswig#link Possible candidate for Thursday evening in Barcelona - after Blair's talk - http://www.asadordearanda.net/en21:32
oneswigrecommended by a former workmate who is an occasion local21:32
rbuddeni’m hungry now21:33
oneswigIt's under 5km from the conference venue, 8 stops on the metro.  Could fit the bill21:33
oneswigI checked today, they have room for 30 :-)21:33
jmloweI do have one concern, I'm not planning on bringing much if any cash, so if they are more friendly to a big pile of credit cards than the place in Austin was that would be good21:33
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oneswigjmlowe: hard to know, European places might be more open to it, cash is less prevalent than card AFAIK21:34
b1airothey have a bunch of set group menu options for ~45 euro / head21:35
oneswigYes, thats' for something pretty big, I was reckoning on a course from the basic menu and some beer or wine...21:36
martialall of it sounds very nice so far :)21:36
jmlowewe did that at a Lebanese restaurant with a smaller group in Vancouver, it was great21:36
priteauoneswig: They have three venus in Barcelona, which one did you have in mind?21:37
oneswigjmlowe: sounds ideal.21:37
oneswigCalle ...err ... holdon21:37
rbuddenjmlowe: yes, that was fun indeed21:37
oneswigPau Claris21:37
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b1airoVancouver was so far the winning summit for beer21:37
rbuddenthey did have good beer21:38
b1airogotta get the basics right!21:38
rbuddengelatto was amazing too21:38
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oneswigNearer the time, I might need to get a head count to ensure the booking's within a power of 1021:40
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b1airoi assume it's just like Ceph PGs, round up to the nearest power of 2 ?21:40
oneswigTell that to the maitre d', he'll love it21:40
b1airoi'd prefer to leave with my teeth intact21:41
oneswiglol indeed!21:41
b1airo#topic Supercomputing preparation21:41
*** openstack changes topic to "Supercomputing preparation (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:41
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b1airofirstly, our BOF was accepted - w00t!21:42
oneswigDoes anyone know which days the panel and bof are?21:42
jmlowePannel is Thursday?21:42
rbuddenpanel is thursday at 3:30-5pm21:42
oneswigjmlowe: do you have a link to it?21:42
b1airoyeah that's right for panel, not sure the BOF timing is set yet though21:42
martialreally sweet on the BOF :)21:43
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b1airoah there it is!21:44
oneswigWonderful, thanks jmlowe rbudden21:44
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b1airoi thought we take a moment to brain-dump some discussion points for the SC panel that might help get things underway21:47
oneswigIt's an interesting one, who's a typical attendee?  Cloud skeptics will probably steer clear.21:48
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oneswigIn writing this study, I've learned some interesting capabilities I didn't know about what can be achieved in OpenStack.  Do you think this is an infrastructure-level discussion or higher level?21:50
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b1airoi think if we get it right it will range higher level down to infrastructure and back to "business" level again21:51
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b1airo#link SC16 panel brainstorm etherpad - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/scientificwg-SC16-panel21:52
oneswigGood plan, I'll keep thinking on it in the background21:53
oneswigNext item?21:54
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b1airo#topic AOB21:55
*** openstack changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:55
b1airolondon meetup oneswig ?21:55
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oneswigI had one item - limited use in this group - London meetup for HPC / OpenStack is now 1st December21:56
oneswigSponsored by Mellanox21:56
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b1airowe're having an OpenStack Australia Government Day here soon - http://australiaday.openstack.org.au/21:56
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oneswigThis is selling to Government or government of OpenStack??21:57
b1airoyeah i think it's more aptira selling to government21:58
b1airoor hoping to anyway21:58
oneswigTurns out the UK gov likes OpenStack, why not AU...21:59
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b1airoi have no idea where gov is at with private/hybrid cloud, but to complicate matters we have federal and state govs with separate practices and departmental guidelines22:00
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oneswigOK we are out of time alas,22:00
oneswigI am left wondering why they chose an image with no clouds in it...22:00
b1airolittle bit silly with states of ~6-7 million ppl at most22:00
oneswigSo typical of Australia22:01
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b1airoi will turn to my NZ citizenship at this point22:01
oneswigGot to go, thanks all22:01
jmlowepleasure as always22:01
b1airothanks folks!22:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep  6 22:02:07 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-09-06-21.01.html22:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-09-06-21.01.txt22:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-09-06-21.01.log.html22:02
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priteaubye everyone22:02
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