Tuesday, 2016-12-13

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hongbin#startmeeting zun03:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec 13 03:00:06 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.03:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.03:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'zun'03:00
hongbin#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2016-12-13_0300_UTC Today's agenda03:00
hongbin#topic Roll Call03:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
mkrai_Madhuri Kumari03:00
hongbinthanks for joining the meeting Namrata pksingh kevinz Namrata eliqiao mkrai_ shubhams Wenzhi03:01
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hongbin#topic Announcements03:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)"03:01
hongbin1. Welcome Pradeep to the core team03:01
mkrai_Congratulations pksingh!03:01
shubhamsCongrats Pradeep03:01
eliqiaogreat addition!03:01
hongbinpksingh: thanks for your contribution. it is good to have you in the core team03:01
pksinghthanks all :)03:01
hongbin#topic Review Action Items03:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: zun)"03:02
hongbin1. hongbin create a etherpad to discuss the zun core api (DONE)03:02
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-core-api03:02
hongbinwe will revisit this etherpad later in the agenda03:02
hongbin2. hongbin start a ML to discuss the k8s integration bp (DONE)03:02
hongbin#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-December/108569.html03:02
hongbinshubhams replied to the ML03:03
hongbinso, let's continue the discussion here03:03
hongbin#topic Kubernetes integration (shubhams)03:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Kubernetes integration (shubhams) (Meeting topic: zun)"03:03
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/k8s-integration The BP03:03
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-k8s-integration The etherpad03:03
hongbinshubhams: want to drive this one?03:04
shubhamshongbin:  Had discussion with mkrai_ and pksingh  and we think that having a pod (or similar concept) within zun is better than just acting like a proxy03:04
hongbinshubhams: ack03:04
shubhamsWe want to know views of team as it will require considerable efforts and analysis if we do it03:04
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hongbinthoughts everyone?03:05
hongbinwelcome to the meeting diga03:05
digahongbin: thnks :)03:05
Wenzhiacting like a proxy is definitely not a good idea03:05
mkrai_+1 for it as I think behaving as proxy to any COE wouldn't add much value to zun03:06
eliqiao+1 for not using proxy as k8s03:06
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hongbini also agree on this: no proxy03:06
pksinghand having purpose of comon interface for different coe will be defeated if we act like proxy03:06
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hongbini think some team members also challenged the necessary to bring k8s to zun03:07
shubhams#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-December/108735.html03:07
sudiptoo/ sorry for being late.03:07
mkrai_+1 pksingh03:07
hongbinsudipto: hey03:07
sudiptologged in from the car :)03:07
hongbinsudipto: :)03:08
hongbinsudipto: we just discussed the k8s integration bp03:08
shubhamsLink I posted has the reasoning for our suggestion. Interested people can see :)03:08
hongbinsudipto: do you have any comment about that?03:08
hongbinshubhams: i think we can break this bp into two : 1. introduce pod, 2. k8s integration03:09
shubhamshongbin: agree03:09
pksinghhongbin: +103:09
hongbinshubhams: but we can start them in parallel03:09
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shubhamshongbin: And I think both should work in parallel03:09
hongbin#action hongbin split the k8s bp into two03:09
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Wenzhiif we introduce pod, do we need to introduce k8s's RC and service as well?03:10
hongbinWenzhi: i don't think we should do it right now03:10
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shubhamsWenzhi: ATM, I dont think we should focus on having them03:10
hongbinthe last question i have for all of you03:11
hongbindo you think if it is valuable to bring k8s to zun (since several poeple challenged this idea in before)03:11
hongbinjust want to make sure if everyone think this is the right direction03:12
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hongbinany opposition point of view?03:12
sudipto_I have POVs, but i am not hard bound.03:12
mkrai_As of now I would say "no". When we have our own pod like concept we can eventually integrate k8s also without affecting the end users.03:13
hongbinsudipto_: yes, we would like to hear your point of view03:13
sudipto_I feel that k8s integration is as good as asking people to use another abstraction on top of kubernetes and us chasing the kubernetes releases to have feature parity.03:13
mkrai_All COEs will act yes the drivers and we can plug them in as per use.03:13
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shubhamsI think having k8s is just optional , and not necessary for zun's success .03:14
sudipto_yeah and i think the trade off is, whether we should work on optional features or the relatively important ones.03:14
sudipto_but if there's a real need for k8s, i would like to hear that.03:14
digahongbin: mkrai_ : Ultimate target is to use zun to provision/manage containers on top of Container infrastructure like k8s, docker swarm etc03:15
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shubhamshongbin: IIRC, when you came back from Barcelona Summit, you said that people are interested in k8s with zun. What was their motivation for this(if by any chance you could discuss in details)03:16
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hongbinshubhams: they just kept asking if zun support k8s03:17
mkrai_diga: Initially we planned to integrate with k8s, swarm but now it seems people are not in favor of it03:17
shubhamshongbin: ok03:17
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hongbinshubhams: the one that really asked for k8s is other openstack team (i.e. trove). they wanted a unified api for different coe03:18
sudipto_My take is, i am not opposed to supporting k8s but it's good to build on the docker driver to support composition of containers first.03:18
digamkrai_: okay03:18
mkrai_+1 sudipto_03:19
Wenzhisudipto_: agreed03:19
sudipto_else we could have just stuck to being a gateway for the COEs03:19
hongbinok, sounds like we should adjust the priority of the k8s bp?03:19
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shubhamshongbin: agree03:19
kevinz+1 sudipto_03:19
hongbinright now, the bp is essential, let's drop it to medium?03:19
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hongbini will create a pod bp, which will be given a higher priority03:20
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hongbinsounds good to everyone?03:20
hongbinany other comment?03:20
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hongbinQiming: :)03:21
shubhamshongbin: sounds good03:21
hongbinvery good03:21
hongbinnext one03:21
hongbin#topic Support interactive mode (kevinz)03:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Support interactive mode (kevinz) (Meeting topic: zun)"03:21
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/support-interactive-mode The BP03:21
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/396841/ The design spec03:21
hongbinkevinz: ^^03:21
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hongbinkevinz: do you like to give an update for this one?03:23
kevinzThis week I'm still working to give protocol,,,so I don't have much more update this week. Hope to submit first draft before next meeting03:23
hongbinkevinz: ack. that is fine03:23
hongbinnext topic03:23
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hongbin#topic Should we hold a team meeting at 2016-12-27 UTC 0300?03:23
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mkrai_hongbin: Why we don't want to hold meeting?03:24
shubhamsI will be available03:24
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hongbinit is xmas03:24
pksinghI am available too03:24
shubhamsmkrai_: many people will be gone for new year leave (i guess)03:25
sudiptoi will be off.03:25
mkrai_I will be available :)03:25
kevinzI Will be off too03:25
sudiptoGoing to thailand :)03:25
pksinghsudipto: :)03:25
hongbinok, sounds like half of hte team members will not be available03:25
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hongbinlet me ask another question03:26
hongbin#topic Should we hold a team meeting at 2017-01-03 UTC 0300?03:26
*** openstack changes topic to "Should we hold a team meeting at 2017-01-03 UTC 0300? (Meeting topic: zun)"03:26
hongbinwill everyone available at Jan 03?03:26
sudiptoAvailable for that one :)03:26
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hongbinok, then how about dropping the 12-27 one, then hold the 01-0303:27
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sudiptowould you be available hongbin03:27
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hongbinsudipto: i am not sure, it is a holiday at Canada :)03:27
hongbinsudipto: but Jan 03, i will be available03:27
sudiptohopefully not logging in from a motor vehicle like me right now :)03:28
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hongbin#agreed cancel the team meeting at 12-2703:28
hongbinsudipto: :)03:28
hongbin#topic Open Discussion03:28
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)"03:28
hongbinthere is an etherpad that needs to be discussed: #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-core-api03:29
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-core-api03:29
digahongbin: I would like to take this BP - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/coe-integration03:29
hongbinwe can do it right now, or leave it as homework03:29
hongbindiga: this bp is of priority "not"03:30
digaWe need to generic layer may be based on the factory implementation03:30
Qimingjust posted some comments to the core api03:30
hongbindiga: which means it is not in the recent roadmap, it is a long term idea03:30
digahongbin: okay03:30
hongbindiga: however, you can work with mkrai_ shubhams pksingh for the k8s bp, it is one of the coe03:30
digahongbin: anything I can start03:31
digahongbin: okay03:31
hongbinQiming: you are of color blue?03:31
QimingI cannot read colors, :)03:31
Qimingyes, probably03:31
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Qimingmy suggestion is to merge all container operations into a single URL03:32
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hongbinQiming: you were suggestion: /containers/<ID>/actions/<ACTION> ?03:32
hongbinQiming: ack03:33
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hongbinothers, thoughts?03:34
hongbinQiming: i see. nova is designed the api in this way03:35
pksinghhongbin: i think action is part of the body?03:35
Qimingalso, for these operations, maybe we should return 202 instead of 20003:35
hongbinpksingh: yes, <action> is in the body03:35
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hongbinthat means make them async?03:35
Qimingyes, they are inherently async operations03:36
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hongbini see03:36
mkrai_Qiming: the benefit is reduced no of APIs exposed?03:36
Qimingyes, mkrai_03:36
mkrai_Single API endpoint for all actions03:36
Qimingexcept for basic CRUD calls03:37
mkrai_Yes got it03:37
Qiminga POST to the collection 'actions' means a creation of an action resource03:37
pksinghQiming: isn't it confusing having same url for different controller actions?03:37
Qimingthat is a more RESTful way to operate your resources03:38
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Qimingit is different from CLI or GUI03:38
Qimingfrom CLI or dashboard, you can still present these operations in whatever way users appreciate03:39
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Qimingjust my 2 cents for team to consider03:39
csomervilleIt might be worth asking the nova team if they're happy with that design decision.03:39
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eliqiaosuggest to fellow API design as https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/API_Working_Group03:40
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pksinghcsomerville: +103:41
hongbinok, i can create a bp for that first03:41
Qimingthere was a patch #234994 proposing this idea03:41
Qiminghowever, it was stuck by some trivial things, and blocked by the tendency people loves "-1" a patch03:42
csomervilleWas just discussing today how multiple actions to single URL in nova makes it more difficult to track feature usage by http access logs03:42
hongbinthen, everyone can cast feedback to the bp (i.e. what is nova POV)03:42
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Qimingcsomerville, reasonable concern though03:42
mkrai_hongbin: Qiming How about raising ML with nova in subject?03:42
Qimingsounds tood03:43
pksinghmkrai_: +103:43
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hongbinmkrai_: maybe raise it with API WG is more appropreciate03:43
hongbin#action hongbin raise a ML with API WG to discuss the consolidate of actions into single URL03:44
hongbinat the same time, we can ping the nova channel to get more feedback03:44
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hongbinanything else to discuss?03:45
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hongbinsounds no more03:45
hongbinall, thanks for joining the meeting03:45
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"03:45
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec 13 03:45:44 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)03:45
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-12-13-03.00.html03:45
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-12-13-03.00.txt03:45
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-12-13-03.00.log.html03:45
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Dinesh_BhorsamP: Hi04:01
tpatilsamP: Hi04:01
samPhi Dinesh_Bhor04:01
samPhi tpatil04:01
rkmrhjsamP: Hi04:01
abhishekk0/ hi04:01
samPhi abhishekk04:02
samPshall we start?04:02
samP#startmeeting masakari04:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec 13 04:02:20 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is samP. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.04:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.04:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'masakari'04:02
samPHi all04:02
samPThank you all for attending to our first masakari IRC04:03
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samPFirst I would like to make quick intro from every one04:03
tpatilI think we should add weekly agenda on masakari wiki page04:04
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tpatil#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Masakari04:04
abhishekk#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Masakari#Agenda_for_next_meeting04:04
samPcan we use the rollcall?04:04
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samPtpatil: sure, I will do that04:05
samP#action samP add add weekly agenda on masakari wiki page04:05
abhishekksamP: I have added some points for todays discussion04:05
samPabhishekk: thank you04:06
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abhishekkshall we start with the discussion?04:08
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tpatilLet's start the discussion as per agenda04:09
samPwe dont have opens bugs right? can we stat jump in to next?04:09
tpatilOnly one issue is open04:10
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samP#topic Discussion new features04:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Discussion new features (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:10
tpatilin fact there are 3 open issues but none is critical04:10
samPtpatil: OK, lets do it after this discussion04:11
tpatilsamP: ok04:11
samPFirst, evacuate_all config option04:11
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samPnow we dont evacuate VMs without HA flag, this option enable/disable the evacuation of all VMs04:12
abhishekkyes, we are using this option for host_failure flow04:12
abhishekkif this option is True then we should evacuate all the instances else only ha_enabled instances should be evacuated04:13
tpatil#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/407538/04:13
abhishekkIMO we should rename this option so that we can use for instance_failure flow as well04:13
samPabhishekk: agree, we have kind of same issue there04:14
abhishekkas of now in instance_failure we are only processing HA-Enabled instances04:15
samPhow about rescue_all?04:15
rkmrhjrescue is other API name of nova.04:15
abhishekkright, we can decide about the config name in internal disscussion04:16
samPrkmrhj: ah,, thank you04:16
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samPIn future, we are going to impliment custormize rescue patterns,04:17
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samPI think we need to define separate options for evacuate and instance_failure04:19
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tpatilsamP: Let's add  a new blueprint to describe about new feature04:19
samPsuch as, evacuate for all but instance_failure only for HA enable VMS04:19
tpatilalso, we should add a litespec to describe how we are going to implement it04:19
samPtpatil: sure04:20
samPdo we need a spec repo? or just document it someware?04:20
tpatilrepo is better04:20
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samPOK, in future, spec repo is more useful. I'll try to get one04:21
samP#action create spec repo for masakari04:21
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samPare we going to create BP for "evacuate_all config option"?04:23
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tpatilI think blueprint should be enough for this change as design wise it's not a big change04:23
samPtpatil: agree04:24
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tpatilcan we move to the next item04:25
samPany volunteer for that BP?04:25
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abhishekkI will do that04:25
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samP#action abhishekk crate evacuate_all config option BP04:26
samPabhishekk: thanks04:26
samPOK lets go to next item04:26
abhishekksamP: no problem04:26
samPitem2: an we have one periodic task?04:26
abhishekkOk, I will explain about this04:26
abhishekkEarlier we were planning to have two periodic tasks,04:26
abhishekkprocess_error_notifications, for processing notifications which are in error state04:27
abhishekkprocess_queued_notifications, for processing notifications which are in new state for long time due to ignored/missed by messaging server.04:27
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abhishekkbut we can club this into one as in both the tasks we are going to execute the workflow again04:27
abhishekkthis way we can eliminate the duplicate code04:27
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tpatilthe question is, we can process both these tasks in a single periodic task04:29
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tpatilthe only difference is in case of notification status is new, if the periodic task fails to execute the workflow , should the status be set to "failed" or "error"?04:29
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tpatilabhishekk: can you please explain the status transition that takes place during processing notifications04:30
abhishekkError flow, error >> running >> error >> failed04:31
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abhishekkSuccess flow, error >> running >> finished04:31
abhishekkfor process_queued_notifications:04:31
abhishekkError flow, new >> running >> error04:31
abhishekkSuccess flow, new >> running >> finished04:31
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abhishekkIn case of secnond periodic task it we set status to error then that will again be taken for execution by process_error_notifications04:32
abhishekkso we cab club this and have common flow like,04:32
abhishekkError flow, new/error >> running >> error >> failed04:32
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abhishekkSuccess flow, new/error >> running >> finished04:33
samPIs there any flag to stop it at some point?04:33
tpatilabhishekk: Let's add a litespec to explain all these possible cases04:34
abhishekkno, these periodic tasks will run at regular interval04:34
samPOK, lets discuss this further on the spec04:35
samPabhishekk: can I assign this spec to you?04:35
abhishekksamP: yes04:35
samP#action abhishekk create spc for merge periodic tasks04:36
samPabhishekk: thank you04:36
samPshall we move to next then?04:36
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samPitem3: configurable workflow04:37
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abhishekkthis is a new requirement04:37
samPis this configurable recovery patterns or smt else?04:37
samPabhishekk: ok04:37
tpatilsamP: configurable recovery patterns04:38
samPtpatil: thanks04:38
tpatilI think Kajinami explained you the problems we are having in the current design04:38
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samPtpatil: actually, I couldn't. we gonna meet tomorrow04:39
tpatilsamP: Ok04:39
tpatilPost that discussion, let's finalize on the new requirement before we go ahead and add a new blueprint for it04:40
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samPtpatil: sure, I will discuss with this on ML with kajinami04:41
samPtpatil: we can have more details discuss on next meeting04:41
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tpatilsamP: Sure04:41
abhishekksamP: we have one more item for discussion04:42
samPabhishekk: sure04:42
abhishekkDinesh_Bhor will explain you about that04:42
Dinesh_Bhorok I have a question that  whether the workflow should be executed synchronously or asynchronously?04:42
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samPspecific work flow or all of them?04:43
abhishekkPrticulary host_failure04:44
Dinesh_BhorThe problem is we want to mark the used reserved_hosts after the execution of host failure workflow as reserved=False04:44
Dinesh_BhorFor this we are passing that reserved_host_list dictionary to workflow for further execution.04:45
samPah.. got it04:45
Dinesh_BhorWhen the reserved_host is taken for evacuation, it is set to reserved_host['reserved'] = False. As the dictionary is mutable we get the updated dictionary after the execution of workflow.04:45
Dinesh_BhorAfter the execution of whole workflow we are looping over through the reserved_host_list in manager.py and if the reserved_host is marked as false then we are getting the related object and marking it as reserved=False.04:45
Dinesh_BhorThe above solution is based on the assumption that we are executing the workflow synchronously.04:46
tpatilIn future, if some one wants to contribute another driver say Mistral then the workflow might execute asychronously and you might not get the results from the workflow execution in engine, right?04:47
Dinesh_Bhortpatil: yes, correct04:47
tpatilwhere you will can db apis to update reserve_host flag to False04:47
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tpatilthe current supported driver run on the local machine where engine is running. but in future any one can contribute new driver and we don't know whether it will return result  or not.04:49
samPas tpatil said, if some one bring other driver to call this workflow, we can not do this synchronously04:49
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tpatilso the main question is how to set reserve_host flag to False after the instances are evacuated from the failover segment.04:50
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tpatillet's discuss the design offline but one thing is sure we cannot assume workflow to return results04:51
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tpatilsamP: Do you agree?04:52
samPtpatil: yes, I am thing abt some kind of locking or intermediate state for it04:52
samPtpatil: agree, shall we raise a spec for this?04:53
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tpatilsamP: yes04:53
samPtpatil: thanks04:53
samPDinesh_Bhor: may I assign this spec to you?04:53
Dinesh_BhorsamP: yes04:54
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samP#action Dinesh_Bhor spec for synchronous/asynchronous work flows04:55
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samPany other discussion topics, if no lest move to #any_other_topics04:56
samP#topic AOB04:56
*** openstack changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:56
samPI will update masakari wiki with our release schedule.04:57
samPOur initial plan, we had milestone b1 on 12/904:58
samPsince we have new topics to discuss, I would like this to extend this 12/1604:59
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samPok then.05:00
tpatilI think we should use LP milestone feature to figure out details of each milestone05:00
samPtpatil: sure05:01
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abhishekkthank you all05:01
tpatilsamP: Thank you05:01
samPOK then, its almost time05:01
Dinesh_Bhoryes, thanks all05:01
samPplease use ML openstack-dev[masakari] for further discussions05:02
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samPThank you all05:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"05:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec 13 05:02:16 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)05:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2016/masakari.2016-12-13-04.02.html05:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2016/masakari.2016-12-13-04.02.txt05:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2016/masakari.2016-12-13-04.02.log.html05:02
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samPThank you all and bye05:02
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yamamoto#startmeeting networking_midonet07:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec 13 07:00:41 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yamamoto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.07:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.07:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking_midonet'07:00
yamamotoanyone here for the meeting?07:00
yamamoto#topic Agenda07:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:01
yamamoto#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NetworkingMidoNet07:01
yamamoto#topic Announcements07:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:01
yamamotowe now have stable/newton branch07:01
yamamotoand 3.0.0 has been released.  it doesn't have features we wanted though.07:02
yamamotoeg. lbaasv207:02
yamamoto#topic Bugs07:02
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*** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:02
yamamoto#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/networking-midonet/07:02
yamamotoat this point gate seems ok07:03
yamamoto#link http://grafana.openstack.org/dashboard/db/networking-midonet-failure-rate07:03
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yamamotoas always i'll continue bug deputy07:03
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yamamoto#topic Open Discussion07:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:04
yamamotoi'm going to attend PTG07:04
yamamotothat's all from me07:04
* yamamoto waiting for a few minutes before closing the meeting07:04
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yamamotolet's call it a day07:15
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"07:15
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec 13 07:15:15 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)07:15
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-12-13-07.00.html07:15
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-12-13-07.00.txt07:15
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-12-13-07.00.log.html07:15
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eranrom#start-meeting storlets08:02
eranrom#startmeeting storlets08:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec 13 08:02:37 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is eranrom. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: storlets)"08:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'storlets'08:02
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eranromakihito: Hi!08:03
akihitoTakashi is absent today..08:04
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eranromI see. So its only the two of us :-)08:05
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eranromkota cannot make it as well.08:05
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eranromLets start then.08:05
akihitooh. ok.08:05
eranrom#topic Big-Tent08:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Big-Tent (Meeting topic: storlets)"08:05
eranromWe will be on the agenda in next's week IRC meeting08:06
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eranromA lot of work has been done, and I expect that the project will be approved (perhaps with some todos)08:07
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eranromAt any rate we still have a couple of pending patches that need to get in as part of the work we have done08:07
eranromWould be good to merge them this week08:08
eranromMost important is: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/394168/08:08
eranromthen there is also the testr patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/394437/08:08
akihitoI think that is good.08:09
eranromI would still like to discuss with Kota python3 and the testr patch, but we can do it when he is available.08:10
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eranromFor the record, this etherpad has a summery as well as all details on the work done so far: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/storlets-big-tent08:11
eranromThis is what I have on the topic.08:11
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akihitohmm. ok. sorry, I am not a core reviewr, so discussion is difficult.08:12
eranromakihito: no worries!08:12
eranromakihito: Do you plan on coming to the PTG?08:12
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eranromakihito: Great!08:13
eranromI have seen that you have been working on the functional tests a lot.08:14
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akihitoThank you!  I use java's FTs as a reference.08:15
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eranromgood. I guess they are not perfect, but surely a good starting point.08:15
eranromAnything else for today?08:16
akihitoPlease advice if there are missing items.08:16
akihitoI am nothing.08:16
eranromakihito: sure will do.08:16
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akihitothank you!08:17
eranromSo we get back 40 minutes.08:17
eranromTalk to you later. and thanks for joining.08:17
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"08:19
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec 13 08:19:01 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:19
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storlets/2016/storlets.2016-12-13-08.02.html08:19
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storlets/2016/storlets.2016-12-13-08.02.txt08:19
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storlets/2016/storlets.2016-12-13-08.02.log.html08:19
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yanyanhu#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec 13 13:00:03 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yanyanhu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
yanyanhuhello, everyone13:00
elynnhi yanyanhu13:00
yanyanhuhi, elynn13:00
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yanyanhuhi, Ruijie_13:01
Ruijie_evening, yanyanhu13:01
yanyanhulets wait for a while for other attenders13:01
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yanyanhuhere is the agenda, please feel free to add topics13:01
lvdongbinghello, everyone13:02
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yanyanhuhi, lvdongbing13:02
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yanyanhuok, lets start13:02
yanyanhu#topic ocata workitem13:02
*** openstack changes topic to "ocata workitem (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:02
yanyanhuocata workitem13:03
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yanyanhuwill start to work on tempest API improvement after versioend request support is done13:03
yanyanhuand Ruijie_ has spent some time on rally test recently13:04
Ruijie_asked that question in rally channel13:04
yanyanhutry to support more scenarios13:04
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Ruijie_but didn't get answered13:05
yanyanhuso maybe we can use 'public' rather than 'private' network in nova server profile as a workaround temporarily13:06
Ruijie_will try to update the network to "shared:true"13:06
yanyanhuthen we need to find a better way to address this issue, e.g. creating specific network for test13:06
yanyanhuRuijie_, that is also feasible I think13:06
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Ruijie_if that can pass the test, then it's a netwrok problem13:07
yanyanhuI think you can refer to the "server" scenario in Rally13:07
yanyanhuI recalled there are some network related operations included13:07
yanyanhuRuijie_, yes13:07
Ruijie_yes, yanyanhu, will check it13:08
yanyanhugreat, thanks a lot :)13:08
yanyanhuok, next one, health management13:08
Ruijie_my pleasure :)13:08
yanyanhuI think xinhui is in business travel this week13:08
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yanyanhujust sent a mail to Michael to seek oppotunity for more discussion on the following bp13:09
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yanyanhuwill wait for their feedback13:09
Qimingalso, xinhui mentioned that she will work on integrating mistral into senlin when she is back13:10
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yanyanhumaybe she can give us a quick introduction about mistral13:11
yanyanhuespecially how it works with Senlin for HA scenario13:11
Qiminganother thing I have been thinking of is about health detection13:11
Qimingsuppose I have a monitoring service deployed13:11
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Qimingfrom HA's perspective, it is equivalent to LBaaS13:12
QimingI mean, it can help monitor the service availability from nodes13:12
Qimingwe should enable this service to tell us that a specific node is unhealthy13:12
yanyanhuyou mean we enable it (on behalf of user)?13:13
Qimingthe question is, how that service is supposed to notify senlin?13:13
yanyanhuummm, good question. Currently, we have listener13:14
yanyanhubut it is created within health policy I think13:14
Qimingseveral options: 1 send a message into zaqar, we listen to that13:14
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Qiming2. send a message to the control plane message queue, just like nove-compute does13:14
yanyanhulooks like option1 is more reasonable13:15
Qiminghowever, the monitoring service is doing failure detection from business plane13:15
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Qiming3. send a webhook API, invoking an operation in senlin13:15
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Qimingor directly invoke a senlin API13:15
Qimingbut we don't have such an API yet13:16
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yanyanhuoption3 is almost euqal to calling senlin API directly13:16
Qimingem, yep13:16
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XueFengLiuwant to add?13:16
yanyanhuimho, option1 is the most flexible and safe one :)13:16
Qimingthe only concern about option 1 is about zaqar's stability13:17
elynnI would prefer option 2....13:17
Qimingits API is so .... weird to me, :D13:17
yanyanhuyes, that could be a issue13:17
elynnSince not every env deploy zaqar...13:17
yanyanhuhonestly, Zaqar is really important is many cases13:17
Qimingokay, option 3 is left to me for vote?13:17
QimingI agree13:18
elynnYes, agree with you yanyanhu13:18
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Qimingso we should support that scenario13:18
yanyanhuand it also provides enough flexibility for user to control the workflow, including building the queue, let monitoring service to send message13:19
QimingPATCH /v1/nodes/<node_id>  {'node': {'status': 'DEAD'}} ?13:19
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Qimingnot sure yet, but we can keep thinking about it13:19
yanyanhumark a node to failed status manually :)13:19
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Qimingthis is still a notification based failure detectin13:20
yanyanhuI believe all those options have their own use cases13:20
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Qimingin the other direction, there will be HTTP GET, ICMP ping operations to detect node failures13:20
yanyanhuthe polling way13:21
Qimingin other words, we kinda "replicate" the health monitor function locally13:21
Qimingno matter we do LB or not13:21
yanyanhulike a simple health monitor implemented inside senlin13:22
Qimingif we have that capability, we stop bugging the octavia team for fixing their bugs13:22
Qimingwe don't duplicate things unless we HAVE TO13:23
yanyanhumaybe we can add those items we discussed to TODO list13:24
Qimingokay, just some random thoughts on buidling a comprehensive HA solution13:24
yanyanhuthat is very helpful13:24
Tracks16http://ilredentore.dynv6.net regards...13:24
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Qimingokay, will do that13:24
yanyanhuespecially the message based notification13:24
yanyanhugreat, thanks a lot13:24
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yanyanhulater, we can pick them up and file bp/spec for them13:25
yanyanhuplease feel free to claim it :)13:26
yanyanhuok, next one13:26
yanyanhuno progress I guess13:26
yanyanhuversioned request support13:26
yanyanhuit is done now?13:26
yanyanhureceiver notify support has been added I think13:26
yanyanhuany other unfinished parts?13:27
* Qiming is looking13:27
yanyanhuthanks :)13:27
Qimingcredential_create, credential_get13:27
yanyanhuthose two are user invisible ones13:27
Qimingbut they live on RPC interfaces13:28
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Qimingunder review already? ^13:28
yanyanhuguess so13:28
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yanyanhulet me check13:28
Qimingthat's all13:28
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XueFengLiuaction_delete need delete13:28
yanyanhuhas been there13:29
Qimingit is only about the object13:29
XueFengLiuthe old need delete13:29
Qimingengine service is not yet changed13:30
yanyanhuoh, here is the eng support13:30
yanyanhuthere is no action_delete API I think13:30
yanyanhuXueFengLiu, yes13:30
yanyanhuneed to remove dead code13:30
Qimingah, ... finally I understand what you said, XueFengLiu13:30
XueFengLiuyes ,api no need to do13:30
yanyanhuok, will work on left ones13:30
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yanyanhuand hope to catch the ocata-2 release13:31
XueFengLiualso checked ploicy/profile update13:31
yanyanhuthen we can rename those "**2" service calls :)13:31
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Qimingyes, please, :D13:31
XueFengLiutwo problems meraged13:32
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yanyanhuXueFengLiu, yes, saw your bug report13:32
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yanyanhuso those fixes have been merged13:32
Qimingyou mean two patches merged?13:32
yanyanhuQiming, yes13:33
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yanyanhuand this one?13:33
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yanyanhuXueFengLiu, did I miss anything?13:33
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yanyanhuok, lets move on13:34
yanyanhucontainer profile13:34
yanyanhuhaiwei is not here?13:34
yanyanhuok, lets skip it13:34
Qiming#368539 has been abandoned13:35
XueFengLiuSorroy, offline just now13:35
XueFengLiumove on13:35
Qimingand I have reworked that profile thing13:35
yanyanhuQiming, ah, right13:36
Qimingnow we have a 'create' classmethod of Profile13:36
yanyanhuthose two patches have been merged13:36
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yanyanhuthat logic should stay in container profile rather than engine service call13:36
Qimingit is enabling us to do extra work in subclasses when a profile is created or deleted13:36
QimingAs I have left a TODO in the profile13:37
Qimingit is only capable of removing dependency from clusters today13:37
Qimingstill needs to handle dependency on nodes13:37
QimingI'm adding an item and assigning it to myself13:38
Qimingfeel free to rob it from me, guys13:38
yanyanhuthanks :)13:38
yanyanhuok, next one, Events/Notifications13:39
yanyanhuQiming, configuration options have been added?13:39
Qimingnot yet13:39
Qimingor else line 27 could be removed13:39
yanyanhuI see :)13:39
yanyanhunoticed you're working on reorg the code of versioned request support in API layer13:39
yanyanhuto remove those duplicated code for request parsing13:40
Qimingyes, adding that into etherpad now13:40
yanyanhuby adding a util func13:40
Qimingline 2113:40
yanyanhugreat, thanks13:40
Qimingyes, I hate duplicated codes13:40
yanyanhume too :)13:40
yanyanhudoesn't look good13:40
Qimingthe 'parse_request' function is very powerful13:40
Qimingit can build formalized primitives13:41
Qimingit can lookup class names for a request, instantiate it13:41
Qimingit can validate request using jsonschema13:41
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yanyanhuyes, almost everything is done there13:42
Qimingit can do version search based on the api_version in the context now13:42
yanyanhumaybe we can wrap it to a decorator :)13:42
Qimingthought about that13:42
Qimingproblem is that not all APIs have the same collection of positional arguments and/or keyword arguments13:43
yanyanhuah, right13:43
Qimingthe creatoin of request objects would need those arguments13:43
Qimingit is not an easy job13:44
yanyanhuand it's not functional necessary13:44
Qimingalso, decorators are not easy to override13:44
Qimingif a handler has a slightly different logic, you will need a different decorator?13:44
Qimingthose are two reasons I refrained from decorators13:45
yanyanhuright, that will be a problem13:45
yanyanhuI see.13:45
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yanyanhuok, so those are all items in the list13:45
yanyanhuanything missing13:46
yanyanhuok, lets move on13:46
yanyanhu#topic Join Tacker IRC meeting to discuss Senlin based VDU support13:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Join Tacker IRC meeting to discuss Senlin based VDU support (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:46
yanyanhujust remind, Tacker IRC meeting will be at 0530UTC13:46
yanyanhuanyone who is interested in it, please join it13:47
* Qiming marking it in calendar now13:47
elynnhmm, it is an important thing13:47
yanyanhuwill join it as well13:47
elynnwould be 13:30 china time13:47
yanyanhuI believe haiwei and xinhui will join it as well13:47
elynnHow to join it?13:47
yanyanhuyes, good time for us, haha13:47
elynnat openstack-meeting?13:47
yanyanhujust join the meeting channel13:47
yanyanhuI guess so :)13:48
yanyanhuwill double confirm with haiwei tomorrow morning13:48
yanyanhuto see whether he needs any help13:48
Qimingcool, we will have a lot people making noises there I hope13:48
yanyanhuor a smooth discussion if we have concensus :)13:48
Qimingmaybe bring sahdev in ?13:49
yanyanhuQiming, oh, right13:49
yanyanhuthat will be great13:49
yanyanhumaybe you can send him a mail to ask him13:49
elynntoo late for him I guess13:49
Qimingah, yes13:49
yanyanhuyes, a little bit late13:49
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yanyanhuI guess 12:30?13:50
yanyanhuhe is in Austin?13:50
Qimingyes, Austin I think13:50
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yanyanhuif so, should be around 10:30pm?13:51
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yanyanhucan't recall the time difference between us13:51
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yanyanhuanyway, hope he can join it13:51
yanyanhuok, next topic?13:51
yanyanhu#topic Ocata-2 release13:52
*** openstack changes topic to "Ocata-2 release (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:52
Qimingor we can sync with him at least, after the meeting13:52
yanyanhuQiming, sure13:52
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yanyanhuhe is also the key of this work I think13:52
yanyanhuso everyone, ocata-2 release will be cut this week13:53
Qimingany high priority bugs ?13:53
yanyanhuQiming, just the one ethan is working on I guess?13:53
Qimingthis one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/senlin/+bug/164868113:53
openstackLaunchpad bug 1648681 in senlin "Don't set action to failed if acquire lock failed." [Critical,In progress] - Assigned to Ethan Lynn (ethanlynn)13:53
yanyanhuabout the action lock acquiring13:54
yanyanhuthis one13:54
yanyanhuother ones are not critical13:54
elynnpatches are all submitted at least13:54
elynnneed to modify the first patch a little bit.13:54
Qimingwill look into them tomorrow13:54
yanyanhuelynn, great13:54
Qimingthx, elynn, acquire_1st_ready is useless now13:54
yanyanhuwill check it as well. I think Qiming's comment on the first patch makes sense to me as well13:55
yanyanhuwe can just remove ***_1st_ready api13:55
yanyanhuit will not be used after the new db api is added13:55
elynnThe main purpose of these patches are remove acquire_lock  retries, and let scheduler pick them up later.13:55
yanyanhuelynn, yep13:56
Qimingthat makes sense13:56
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elynnSo that actions would get failed because of acquire lock failed.13:56
yanyanhuok, I plan to cut the release on Thursday13:56
Qimingwe will need to ensure that scheduler will try find some jobs periodically13:56
yanyanhuby the end of Thursday evening or Friday morning13:56
Qimingalright, will check if there are other things urgent13:57
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yanyanhugreat, thanks a lot13:57
yanyanhuok, open discussion now13:57
yanyanhu2 minutes left...13:57
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yanyanhu#topic open discussion13:57
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:57
Qimingstill some patches open for review: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/senlin+status:open13:57
yanyanhuyes, maybe need to close some ones13:58
yanyanhuwhich are not active for a long while13:58
Qimingmost of them are not critical I think13:58
yanyanhuand they can be restored if needed13:58
yanyanhuQiming, I see13:58
yanyanhuwill check the list13:58
Qimingexcept for elynn's13:58
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yanyanhuok, great13:59
yanyanhuonly one minutes left13:59
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QimingI'll complete the node dependency patch13:59
yanyanhuQiming, great13:59
yanyanhuwill help to review13:59
yanyanhuok, time is almost over13:59
yanyanhulets release the channel13:59
yanyanhuthanks all you guys for joinging13:59
yanyanhuhave a good night14:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"14:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec 13 14:00:04 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-12-13-13.00.html14:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-12-13-13.00.txt14:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-12-13-13.00.log.html14:00
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saggi#startmeeting karbor15:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec 13 15:02:20 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is saggi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: karbor)"15:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'karbor'15:02
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saggiHi everyone15:02
zhonghua hi15:02
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chenying_Do we have any topics?15:03
saggiDoesn't look like it15:03
saggi#topic open discussion15:03
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: karbor)"15:03
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yuvalWell, I tried to fix the fullstack gate15:04
yuvalAt first I thought the move to ubuntu-xenial was the issue15:04
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yuvalnow it doesn't look like it15:04
chenying_Yes It seam that the fullstack have failed for serval days.15:04
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yuvalbesides, heat was removed from devstack and is now an plugin15:05
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yuvalI'll update our devstack to include it, but it doesn't solve the gate failure15:05
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yuvalI assume something changed in devstack or devstack-gate15:07
yuvalwill continue working on it tomorrow15:07
chenying_yuval Good job.15:07
chenying_I have submitted a patch about purging deleted rows data. If you are free, you can review it.15:08
yuvalI wasn't here last week, but if someone sees the gate fails - take a look, it is a high priority15:08
yuvaldon't assume someone else will take care of it for you15:08
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chenying_yuval I thought it is a network isuue.15:09
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chenying_yuval we note that there is a download error about a pip lib.15:09
yuvalchenying_: has anyone tried contacting the infra team? send something to the mailing list?15:10
chenying_yuval  Have not yet.15:10
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saggiOK, Listen we are getting close to the Ocata deadline.15:11
saggiThings are still very much unstable15:12
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saggiI don't see a lot of bugs being opened or closed15:12
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chenying_we may need pay more attention on bugfix.15:14
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saggiWe need to pick up the pace15:14
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yuvaland a reminder that https://review.openstack.org/348163 is a high priority for ocata15:16
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chenying_Yuval I don't have any more comments about it. I more care about the refactoring plugins base on this patch. As you know, we need refactor all the plugins base on this one. including the eisoo plugins.15:19
yuvalchenying_: we need to merge this one15:20
yuvalchenying_: and base plugins on it15:20
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yuvalchenying_: unless there are any other comments15:21
chenying_I will give +1 on it, if there are not any comments for anyone else, we can merged it.15:22
yuvalwe have 18 more bugs in ocata besides that15:22
chenying_yuval You mean that the bugs in luanchpad?15:23
yuvalchenying_: yes15:23
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chenying_yuval I already notes these bug. Some of them are bug, some of them is work task trace.15:24
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chenying_yuval I will pay more attention on the real bug, and to fix it.15:25
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yuvalchenying_: what is 'work task trace'15:26
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yuvalwhat bothers me most, and maybe saggi will agree, is that over half of the bugs have no assignee15:27
yuvalmaybe zhonghua can comment as well15:28
chenying_just use bug to trace the work want to do. It not a real bug in karbor.15:28
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saggiI agree, you all should look at the list and try and see what you are best suited to fix.15:30
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chenying_Ok I will. If we have any questions about the bugs in the list, we can discuss it in irc.15:32
saggiOK, any other topics?15:32
saggiThanks everyone!15:33
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:33
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec 13 15:33:51 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:33
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2016/karbor.2016-12-13-15.02.html15:33
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2016/karbor.2016-12-13-15.02.txt15:33
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2016/karbor.2016-12-13-15.02.log.html15:33
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stevemarping agrebennikov, amakarov, annakoppad, ayoung, bknudson, breton, browne, chrisplo, crinkle, davechen, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, edtubill, gagehugo, gyee, henrynash, hrybacki, jamielennox, jaugustine, jgrassler, knikolla, lbragstad, kbaikov, ktychkova, morgan, nisha, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, ravelar, rderose, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, shaleh, spilla, srwilkers, StefanPaetowJisc, stevemar, topol17:59
ayounghey ho, lets go17:59
stevemar#startmeeting keystone17:59
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec 13 17:59:50 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:59
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:59
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"17:59
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'17:59
* morgan doesn't want to meeeeet.18:00
* morgan is here though.18:00
stevemarmorgan: i feel you, i'm only half way through lunch18:00
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morganstevemar: i need breakfast.18:00
morganstevemar: and coffeeeeeeee18:01
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stevemaralright, let's kick things off18:01
stevemar#topic Announcements18:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
stevemarCutting Ocata-2 this week! This is also spec freeze week, specs must merge now!18:01
stevemarerrr, agenda: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:01
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morgan#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:02
stevemarso i'm kinda concerned about the status of new features and the short release cycle18:02
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stevemarwe've got 1 complete, 6 in progress, 4 not started18:02
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stevemarand ocata-2 is *this* week18:03
samueldmqstevemar: also those specs (whose haven't merged) are related to trusts, and ayoung is against18:03
stevemarsamueldmq: ignore the specs for now18:03
lbragstadi have time blocked off for http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/keystone-specs/specs/keystone/ocata/pci-dss-password-requirements-api.html today and tomorrow18:03
stevemarthese are approved ones18:03
lbragstadi plan to have something up to review this week18:03
* samueldmq nods18:03
stevemarSee gerrit topics for where to start reviewing: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/156q820cXcEc8Y9YWQgoc_hyOm3AZ2jtMQM3zdDhwGFU/edit?usp=sharing18:03
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stevemarend of ocata-3 is only about 5-6 weeks away18:04
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stevemartheres no stopping it for holiday break either18:04
stevemarso i'm pessimistic on a lot of these18:04
stevemarespecially the "not started" ones18:04
dstanekwith all the policy discussions i haven't revisited my saml work, but i'll get on that this week again18:04
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rodrigodsstevemar is going to be manager!18:05
stevemartheres also the fact that if everyone is heads down coding, then no one is reviewing18:05
rderoseravelar will help with extending user API, so we'll have something soon18:05
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morganthe MFA spec is on it's way (working on the migrations etc), but unfortunately, I have a move happening as well.18:05
samueldmqlbragstad: since you're focusing on that one, perhaps shaddow mappings could be postponed ?18:05
morgani'm trying to toss in reviews around coding and packing18:05
samueldmqlbragstad: or you think you can do both ?18:05
ayoungmfa was close IIRC18:05
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samueldmqlbragstad: shadow mapping doesn't seem to be a small one18:05
morganayoung: mfa spec merged. just needs code18:06
stevemarthis is just a heads up -- we can re-evaluate in a few weeks based on how much a specific feature affects critical paths18:06
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samueldmqstevemar: I am reviewing. no features on me18:06
morganbut it is ok if mfa slips, we can implement parts now and final code / enable next cycle if needed18:06
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lbragstadsamueldmq i'm still planning on doing both - but i wanted to tackle the password requirements one first since horizon is expecting it18:06
morganit isn't a ton of code18:06
morganfwiw, expect a bit more code/reviews from me once i'm moved (next week) and over holidays18:07
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stevemarhopefully everyone has a few quiet last week or two (at work) before the holidays kick in and can review a bit more18:07
samueldmqlbragstad: gotcha18:07
* morgan also has shade code to write/review18:07
stevemarocata-3 is Jan 23-2718:07
stevemarat which point anything that isn't merged will get bumped to backlog/pike, or can ask for an exception18:08
stevemaranywho, i'm tired of acting like a PM for 8 minutes :P18:08
stevemarnext topic!18:08
stevemar#topic Require domain_id when registering Identity Providers18:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Require domain_id when registering Identity Providers (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:09
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stevemarrderose: ^18:09
rderoseIn preparation for extending the user API and to help Horizon with domain admin support,18:09
rderoseWe want to replace the hardcoded 'Federated' domain with a real domain for federated users.18:09
rderoseThe new domain will be related to the IdP (1:1) and thus, we'll require a domain_id when registering new IdPs.18:09
rderoseTo be backwards compatible, if the domain is not explicitly set via the API, we'll automatically create the domain and relate it to the IdP.18:09
rderoseI'm just looking to get this reviewed, but let me know if you have any questions or concerns.18:09
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stevemarrderose: that sounds all good to me18:09
stevemarrderose: quick observation...18:09
ayoungI like this.  Should have been this way from the get go18:09
henrynashayoung: ++18:10
samueldmqrderose: any specific question or something to discuss or just a "this is the status, needs review"?18:10
dstanekrderose: automatically create the 'Federated' domain right?18:10
stevemarrderose: what about auto-creating a domain with the same name if one isn't supplied when creating an idp?18:10
morganas long as we avoid more magic domains like default18:10
rderosesamueldmq: yeah, just want to bring into attention18:10
samueldmqrderose: ++18:10
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stevemardstanek: that can possibly be done with a migration18:11
rderosedstanek: auto create the IdP domain18:11
morganif we can, in any way avoid it18:11
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ayoungrderose, the domain_id attribute on the IDP is going to be editable, right, so that people can munge things that they got wrong when creating IdPs?18:11
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rodrigodsrderose, like the idea!18:11
morganand by magic i mean "default:" being the ID18:11
rderosestevemar: it will create a domain and the name will be the IdP id18:11
rderoseIdP doesn't have a name18:11
stevemarrderose: cool18:11
morganso as long as it doesn't get magic ids on the new domain, i'm ok with it18:11
dstanekrderose: is that backward compatible?18:11
ayoungrderose, if there is a clash, if there is a domain already named that way, what do you propose?18:12
rderoseayoung: no updates18:12
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dstanekright now all idps share a domain namespace (err....kinda, if it were working)18:12
rderoseayoung: concerned about the implications of changing the domain18:12
rderoseayoung: so you'd have to delete and recreate the IdP18:12
rderosedstanek: yes, backwards compatible18:12
ayoungrderose, if I create the domain first, then create the IdP, and it creates a new domain, I guess delete the IdP and recreate with the new API18:12
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morganrderose: that is... not great. can we provide an admin a mechanism to map the idp to a domain sideband in that case?18:12
rodrigodsmorgan, ++18:13
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ayoungmorgan, it is suboptimal, but it will also be rare18:13
morganit would mean things change for user(s), but it's really letting the admin do something about it18:13
ayoungI say lets go with this for now, and add additional mechanisms as a follow on18:13
stevemarrderose: rather than answering this flurry of questions, can you map out the different cases that'll happen in an etherpad or in a spec or release note ?18:13
dstanekrderose: in an existing cloud with 2 idps will you migrate them to have two new domains?18:13
rderosemorgan: what's the concern?  if we create a domain for the IdP18:13
dstanekstevemar: ++18:13
morganrderose: if the domain exists18:13
ayoungBTW, do NOT cascade the delte18:13
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rderosedstanek: yes18:13
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ayoungif we delete the IdP, do not delete the domain18:14
morganrderose: let the admin map the idp ito the domain.18:14
morganalso waht ayoung said.18:14
ayoungif there is a domain with the name that matches the IdP, grab it18:14
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stevemarrderose: address the migration case, the create case and the update case18:14
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ayounglet me restart that18:14
stevemar*cough* etherpad for this *cough*18:14
rderosestevemar: will do18:14
ayoungwhen creating, if the idp_id matches an existing domain name, make that the domain for the IdP18:14
stevemarway too many combinations to flesh out in a meeting ayoung -- but i'll give you a quick go at it18:14
ayoungdiscuss after meeting.  Lets get this one in18:14
dstaneketherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-idp-domain-questions18:15
stevemardstanek: ty18:15
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ayoungpost in the code review, please18:15
stevemarayoung: the code review being https://review.openstack.org/#/c/399684/18:16
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ayoungI mean post response in the review request18:16
ayoungnot in etherpad18:16
ayoungthat is what review is for18:16
stevemarayoung: can be easily done18:16
stevemarnext topic18:16
stevemar#topic Role check from middleware18:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Role check from middleware (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:16
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stevemari think this is the only spec that is close to making the ocata cut-off18:17
ayoungthis had 2 +2s, but I left it open18:17
ayoungthere are not radical changes from last weekl18:17
stevemarare there any last minute dissenters on this one ?18:17
ayoung1: better defaults18:17
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ayoung2: allowing multiple roles per API18:17
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morgani am not opposed to this.18:17
stevemari think henrynash gave it his blessing18:18
morgani think it is closest to the right direction for policy updates that has been proposed.18:18
henrynashindeed :-)18:18
lbragstadi had a bunch of comments - specifically around mapping things using the URLs, but dstanek ayoung edmondsw and I have been talking through it since Friday18:18
morgani can add a +2 if you'd like.18:18
ayoungplease do18:18
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dstanekyeah, i'll still not a fan of using URLs for this at all18:18
stevemaredmondsw: o/18:18
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ayoungWe can amend if there are new details18:18
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morganayoung: link?18:18
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edmondswayoung have you made any of the changes we were discussing end of last week?18:19
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ayoungedmondsw, yes, I added in the multiple roles part18:19
edmondswI was out yesterday, haven't looked18:19
stevemarfyi - i'm probably going to -2 the rest of the open specs18:19
dstanekRBAC by URL and policy by operational target18:19
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samueldmqdstanek: what is operational target ?18:19
ayoungdstanek, I think what we can work toward over time is a closer mapping from URL to the existing policy rules18:20
morganayoung: done18:20
dstaneksamueldmq: what we use in policy today18:20
edmondswsamueldmq target = the resource you're acting on18:20
morganayoung: it is explicitly stated as ok since it's ongoing and such18:20
ayoungwithout some way to map that, though, we need to start with the URL18:20
dstanekedmondsw: it's not the resource it the operation you are doing18:20
stevemarlbragstad: you had the policy working group going on, does this align what that?18:20
samueldmqedmondsw: gotcha18:20
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stevemarlbragstad: i'll admit i haven't been keeping up with that one18:21
lbragstadstevemar we're starting from square one there18:21
edmondswdstanek I'd say it's both18:21
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dstanekget user isn't a resource18:21
edmondswuser is a resource18:21
lbragstadstevemar we want to define usecases on what the idea solution should be and we're (mainly dstanek and myself) still working on that18:21
edmondswand policy can check attributes of the resource18:21
dstanekuser is a specific instance of the get_user operation with additional context...namely the id you want to get18:22
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samueldmqlbragstad: nice, starting from usecases is always the right path18:22
dstanekas i understand it the RBAC is on the operation and the existing policy is on the resource18:22
morgandstanek: ++18:22
stevemarlbragstad: my concern is that we get ayoung working on this solution and then you and dstanek come up with another overhaul in a few months18:23
morganthat is what the core of this change is started18:23
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dstanekstevemar: for the policy meeting we have been going around in circles...just begining to have an architectural vision defined18:23
edmondswdstanek, right... well, existing policy is on both operation and resource... that's what I'm saying18:23
lbragstadstevemar ^ yeah.. that's a problem, too18:23
ayoungstevemar, so, I don't think having the mechanism defined this way is super committing18:23
dstanekstevemar: that's my concern as well - that's why lbragstad and i have been trying to capture all the things18:23
lbragstadright now - i'd be happy if we could agree on a vision18:23
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stevemarayoung: right, this is pretty isolated code, i liked that18:24
ayoungwe can alwasy build better automation to tie oslo policy and RBAC together if we find they start to diverge18:24
morganthe split of operation and resource action aslo makes a lot of sense in general18:24
ayoungwhat is really lacking in code now is a mapping between URL and Role.18:24
stevemarayoung: and i think this will take the Pike cycle as well right?18:24
morganregardless of what policy meeting comes up with18:24
ayoungstevemar, I think that I can get a proof of concept of this workig in Ocata18:24
morgansince it's mostly an enhancement of what we do today18:24
ayoungthe changes are pretty minimal: keystone server change needs to be updated to reflect the spec18:25
morganit should give the policy folks more fidelity in definition even if there are changes.18:25
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ayoungkeystone client is essentially a REST API18:25
stevemarOK, it sounds like we still have runway for dstanek and lbragstad to figure out if they can come up with something and live with the RBAC check in middleware regardless18:25
ayoungmiddleware needs to use the keystoneclient and cache18:25
dstanekmorgan: i agree on the split. my biggest issue with the spec as-is is that we use the URL18:25
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stevemardstanek: what else is there to use?18:26
dstanekstevemar: we already use the operation target - so know you have to know that an the URL18:26
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dstanekand to be honest i don't know the URLs for 95% of what i use in openstack18:26
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dstanekactually it's not just the URL you need, you also need to know what verb is going to be used18:27
knikollaalmost everything is /<project_id>/resource/<resource_id> thankfully18:27
morgandstanek: unfortuantely from middleware you can't easily map operation to url.18:27
stevemardstanek: that's funny, i prefer looking at the APIs / URLs18:27
morgansince middlweware is above the application18:27
morgani also tend to prefer the URL vs the underlying method(s) like we have today18:27
dstanekmorgan: yeah, i think there would have be be a mapping defined and i think it would be pretty easy to pull that out of routes18:28
morganknikolla: there has been a real effort to remove <project_id> from URIs in projects18:28
dstanekat least in keystone18:28
ayoungdstanek, but the URL+VERB is what is documented18:28
morgandstanek: in keystone is different then in nova18:28
ayoungnot 100% of course18:28
ayoungas edmondsw was about to state, I am sure18:28
edmondswdstanek stevemar's question is a good one, though... what other option do we have? How would middleware map from the Verb+URL of the request to something you would recognize?18:28
morgandstanek: so, look at it from not-keystone perspective.18:28
ayoungbut that is what is in the api-refs18:28
dstanekmorgan: no, i agree we need to. i'm saying we should :-)18:29
edmondswayoung ++18:29
dstanekso if i want to know if i can restart a vm i'll have to know the URL and the target to check?18:29
morgani've always hated the policy file referencing the underlying methods18:29
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morganURLs are far far more stable18:30
knikollamorgan: oh, cool. right now only glance doesn't have the project_id in the url.18:30
edmondswdstanek but "you" aren't a user in that case... you're horizon or another client18:30
ayoungdstanek, yes, that is the contract18:30
morganknikolla: nova was working on it18:30
morganknikolla: and has made strides to support both18:30
dstanekedmondsw: i could be the user...what can i do with this token...right?18:30
morganknikolla: and i think cinder is really the only other one.... the project id is in the token.18:30
knikollamorgan: now if they only supported a unified pagination method :)18:30
morganknikolla: not now.18:31
dstaneki just think in general that a service should be responsible for what it's URLs mean and not everyone else18:31
dstanekRESTful and all that18:31
morganknikolla: lets not derail this18:31
edmondswedmondsw dstanek doubtful... a user would use a client, and that client would abstract this from them18:31
morgandstanek: ah you're asking for something different then. not urls but also not what we have today18:31
edmondswdstanek if the user is using the APIs directly rather than a client, then obviously they already understand APIs18:32
* morgan still thinks URLs is most correct.18:32
samueldmqput a description on it18:32
dstanekedmondsw: sure, but they also have to now the target so that case is moot18:32
knikollaedmondsw: they understand the type of resource and the action they want to do.18:32
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edmondswdstanek knikolla of course they understand the target resource, but the middleware doesn't18:33
dstaneki know i want to list domains not /v3/domains/list or is it /v3/list/domains or /v3/domains?18:33
dstanekok. so instead of making the serivce keep a mapping for the middleware to use we are making then keep a mapping that they have to jam directly into keystone?18:34
edmondswdstanek so you go to openstackclient, right? and it can map Verb+URL information from the keystone API's response into something prettier if we want18:34
samueldmq{'action':'GET', 'url':' /v3/domains', 'description': 'List domains'}18:34
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edmondswdstanek, but how would middleware know anything but the Verb+URL?18:35
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dstanekedmondsw: the service would somehow configure that mapping18:35
samueldmqso it's easy to operators to see what is the semantics on the operation18:35
edmondswdstanek how?18:35
ayoungdstanek, I think, over time, we can do that18:36
dstanekedmondsw: simple was is config file, complex way is a callback, and i can probably think of other ways to do this18:36
ayoungbut not out the gate18:36
knikollakeystone already has the service catalog, maybe services would expose a URL with mappings when registering to the catalog18:36
morgandstanek: would you be ok with URLs and an addition to make it easier / friendlier down the line once you've thought of it18:36
morgandstanek: so both could be done?18:36
edmondswdstanek if you can solve that, then I don't see why we couldn't support 2 different formats... one that is Verb+URL and another based on that mapping, and let the caller determine which they want to provide/receive18:36
morgani really think URLs is a correct method to use.18:36
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ayoungthe router framework in Keystone, for example, gives us a logical place to link to the policy rule18:36
morganeven if we have another as well18:36
dstanekmorgan: well right out of the gate how does nova upgrade?18:36
ayoungbut that differs for every project18:36
ayoungso we do that manually to start18:36
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dstanekayoung: yeah in keystone it's trivial to look up the route and inspect @protected18:37
ayoungwe Need it at the URL level.  the trick is to then map that to the policy rules, and that will take a lot of effort18:37
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morganayoung: ++18:37
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ayoungdstanek, and I suspect that, over time, we could do the same for other projects18:37
dstanekayoung: yeah, i'm just arguing who should own the mapping18:37
ayoungthe way Nova does it, for example18:37
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ayoungdstanek, so, to start, we use good defaults on the ROles and punt on detailed mapping18:38
ayoungwe can make a first hack using the api-ref18:38
ayoungbut if most APIs require the Member role, we can focus on excludimng those that would be broken by an RBAC  checjk18:38
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ayounglike discovery18:38
dstanekayoung: keeping URLs?18:39
ayoungdstanek, we need to be able to report at the URL level18:40
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ayoungit is a requirement18:40
ayoung"what role do I need for this operation"18:40
ayoungwe can change the mechanism, but that requirement has to be met18:40
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dstaneki'm just saying that the service should own the mapping and that is best left out of keystone - not that roles shouldn't be checked at the verb+url level18:41
stevemarthanks morgan18:41
dstanekwe can continue in -keystone later if needed18:42
stevemardstanek: we actually have time, only 1 topic left18:42
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stevemardstanek: your topic, actually18:42
dstanekstevemar: no expired tokens?18:43
morgani don't see jamielennox18:43
stevemardstanek: no, i think jamie and i figured it out18:43
stevemarlets switch gears to your topic dstanek18:44
stevemar#topic versioning mapping18:44
*** openstack changes topic to "versioning mapping (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:44
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dstanekayoung: when you ask "what role do I need for this operation" are you asking the service or keystone?18:44
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dstanekversion mapping....i just wanted to get community thoughts on this18:44
edmondswdstanek keystone18:44
dstanekwe have mapping for federation right now that is nice, but has its warts18:45
ayoungdstanek, what does that mean?18:45
dstanekalso maybe needs a feature or two18:45
ayoungVesioning of what?  APIS?18:45
dstanekwould anyone be opposed to adding something in the mapping to indicated a version identifier?18:45
morgandstanek: can you describe the use-case18:46
dstanekayoung: not APIs. the mapping itself18:46
dstanekso some possible things that have been thrown around:18:46
morgani'm not clear on the use. i'm sure it's not something i'm opposed to18:46
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ayoungdstanek, Federation mapping?18:46
morganbut i want to know what you're talking about18:46
stevemarayoung: yes federation mapping18:46
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dstanek- fix the way to do indexed matching that that all remote matches are available18:46
dstanek- add the provisioning stuff that dolphm & lbragstad have talked about18:47
stevemari think what dstanek is getting at is that if you create a new mapping and have something like {version: 2} in the payload, it'll go through a different set of rules ?18:47
dstanek- adding some extra features allowing mapping to grab data directly out of SAML instead of just the environment18:47
ayoungdstanek, ++18:47
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lbragstadstevemar ++18:47
morganno issues with that idea at all18:47
ayoungI am not 100% sure it is required, but it does let us deprecate features18:47
dstanekstevemar: yeah, and first step is to say the next version is an object and not a list18:48
morgansimilar to fernet token types18:48
stevemardstanek: how will you "grab data directly out os SAML" ?18:48
morganjust for the mapping.18:48
morgandstanek: thanks for clarifying18:48
lbragstadstevemar that would probably come with native saml support18:48
stevemarlbragstad: okay, thought as much18:48
dstanekstevemar: in my saml work i have to recreate the shib mapping stuff already18:48
dstanekmorgan: yep, just for mapping18:48
stevemarright right, it just looked funny when comparing it to today's functionality18:48
morganit's fine to give versions for rulesets like that18:48
morganjust make sure it's usable18:49
dstanekayoung: i would love the ability to deprecate anything we see as cruft :-)18:49
stevemardstanek: i think this is fine -- nova did similar things with block_mapping18:49
morgandstanek: it's much the same as i want for auth in general18:49
morgandstanek: so we can move auth data/types/payloads forward without breaking everyone18:49
lbragstaddstanek so - kind of related, but does that make the shadow mapping stuff dependent on introducing versioning first?18:49
stevemardstanek: the engine mapper needs love, but if starting from scratch is easier, then go for it18:49
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stevemardstanek: is that something i should look for soon or no?18:51
dstaneklbragstad: good question. i don't think it needs to be if you dn't change the behavior of existing mappings18:51
dstanekstevemar: i'll write up a spec today18:51
dstanekstevemar: if push comes to shove it can wait a release18:51
stevemardstanek: why not piggy back that the existing mapping engine spec?18:51
dstanekstevemar: sure, i can do that18:52
ayoungdstanek, you might recall the jdennis had a pretty exhaustive mapping mechanism which he proposed a few years back18:52
lbragstaddstanek do we have a good reason to wait for mapping versions for provisioning?18:52
stevemardstanek: i think it aligns with http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/keystone-specs/specs/keystone/ocata/shadow-mapping.html18:52
morgantimecheck 8 min left18:52
stevemarlbragstad: i thought versioning would make provisioning easier?18:52
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stevemarthats why you wanted to do it?18:52
dstanekayoung: yeah, this would allow us to use other mapping engines like what he propesed. i actually was thinking of his demo when we were talking about this yesterday18:53
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lbragstadstevemar yeah - it probably would.. because you'd be able to create mappings with versions and that could imply auto provisioning18:53
dstanekstevemar: yes, among other reasons18:54
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stevemardstanek: okay, so it would go versioning -> provisioning -> profit?18:54
stevemardstanek rderose lbragstad thanks for all the federation work -- really nice to see it become a first class citizen18:55
lbragstadso in that case - provisioning would only work for mappings that have specific versions.18:55
ayoung5 minute warning18:55
stevemarlbragstad: i'm open to either, i assumed you wanted it that way for ease of impl.18:55
stevemarrather than add a bunch of new checks to already hacky mapping code18:56
dstanekstevemar: ayoung inspired me to think about federation in a different way :-)18:56
ayoungUh oh18:56
stevemarayoung inspires all of us18:56
lbragstadstevemar that's true18:56
stevemarlbragstad: i'll leave that call to you18:56
dstaneklbragstad: you and i can talk about that offline and come up with a strategy18:56
stevemar#topic open discussion18:56
* lbragstad ponders18:56
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:56
stevemarany last minute stuff n things?18:56
lbragstadwell - we have a policy meeting tomorrow18:57
rodrigodsjust fyi... think we are close to have federated auth tests18:57
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stevemari'll run the meeting next week, but probably cancel the one on the 27th18:57
stevemari'll run the meeting on the 3rd again, half-expecting low attendance :)18:58
samueldmqmakes senes18:58
stevemari think we're all good18:58
stevemarthanks for coming folks18:58
samueldmqthanks stevemar18:58
lbragstadgood meeting18:58
samueldmqthanks all18:58
stevemarsee you next week, same bat-time, same bat-channel18:59
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stevemarhenrynash: bam!18:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec 13 18:59:21 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-12-13-17.59.html18:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-12-13-17.59.txt18:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-12-13-17.59.log.html18:59
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* stevemar feels clever for ending the keystone meeting the same way fungi ended the infra meeting last week18:59
fungithanks stevemar!19:00
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fungiinfra team, assemble!19:00
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fungithis week we have topics proposed by jeblair and auggy19:01
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jeblairauggy: ^519:01
fungii'll give everyone another minute to file in while i finish last-minute prep19:01
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fungi#startmeeting infra19:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec 13 19:03:08 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:03
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:03
fungi#topic Announcements19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
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fungi#info REMINDER: If you want to come hack on Infra things at the PTG a couple months from now in Atlanta, don't forget to sign up!19:03
fungi#link https://pikeptg.eventbrite.com/19:03
fungi#link http://www.openstack.org/ptg19:03
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fungii'm told there is plenty of travel assistance available too--if you need it don't be embarassed to ask for it19:03
fungi#link http://www.openstack.org/ptg#tab_travel19:03
fungiSpamapS asked if there would be zuul v3 goodness happening there, and unless the next ptl (if it isn't me) decides otherwise, i expect it to be a primary activity19:04
fungii hope to have some semblance of an agendaish thing put together soon19:04
* morgan needs to book a hotel for PTG things19:05
fungibut really if there's anything infra-related you want to work on and you think at least one other person will be around to collaborate on it with you, we'll work it in somehow19:05
fungias always, feel free to hit me up with announcements you want included in future meetings19:05
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fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-12-06-19.03.html19:05
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fungipabelanger add openstackci::zuul_launcher puppet class19:06
fungithat was the only one we had19:06
fungiwe're using that at this point, yeah?19:06
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fungior are we still going through the openstack_project module for it?19:06
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fungihrm, yeah i don't see any recent changes of pabelanger's, open or merged, for puppet-openstackci19:07
clarkbI think zaro and pabelanger mentioned that is still todo19:07
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fungioh, there's pabelanger!19:08
pabelangerfungi: clarkb: yes, on the list to start today19:08
fungishould i just push that reminder back on the stack for now?19:08
pabelangersorry for dragging this on19:08
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fungino apologies needed19:08
fungi#action pabelanger add openstackci::zuul_launcher puppet class19:08
fungiwe can revisit next week19:08
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pabelangerYes, will have patches ready before then19:09
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fungiawesome. thanks!19:09
fungi#topic Specs approval19:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:09
fungi#info APPROVED "Zuul v3: use Zookeeper for Nodepool-Zuul protocol"19:09
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/305506 "Zuul v3: use Zookeeper for Nodepool-Zuul protocol" spec update19:09
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fungithat's even less scary now that we're actually using zk in nodepool.o.o already ;)19:10
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jeblairyay!  and i'll shortly clear the zuulv3->master merge so we can start working on it19:10
fungi#info "Newton testing on Xenial" spec moved to implemented19:11
fungi[and there was much rejoicing]19:12
fungi#info "Automate Creating Branches" spec moved to implemented19:12
fungii also have proposed to mark the artifact signing spec as implemented19:12
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fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/409906 "Artifact signing is now implemented" change19:13
fungithough there's one last outstanding documentation change it's waiting on reviews for:19:13
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/409905 "Document documenting rotated signing keys" change19:13
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fungiif anybody thinks of any other specs in the approved list that can be moved to abandoned or implemented, please give me a heads up19:14
fungi#topic Specs approval: PROPOSED "Zuul v3: update with Ansible role information" spec  update (jeblair)19:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: PROPOSED "Zuul v3: update with Ansible role information" spec update (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:14
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/381329 "Zuul v3: update with Ansible role information" spec update19:14
jeblairi think this is ready for approval; and with it, we should be able to actually write the bit of zuulv3 that runs ansible jobs for real19:15
rcarrillocruzi like the fact it leaves the door open for requirements.yaml19:16
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rcarrillocruz+1 from me19:16
fungiyeah, seems like a great fleshing out of the missing bits for the ansible portion of the spec19:17
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fungianybody have any immediate questions about it they want to raise here?19:18
fungi#info The "Zuul v3: update with Ansible role information" spec update is open for Infra Council vote until 19:00 UTC Thursday, December 15.19:18
fungiif you come up with questions, obviously follow up in the review linked above19:18
fungi#topic Priority Efforts19:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)"19:19
fungijust a side note that the xenial job transition spec which was a priority effort was, as i mentioned, moved to implemented19:19
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clarkbyes after a long week of staring at yaml this is now done19:20
fungithough the publish jobs for the specs site raced, so it doesn't reflect it at the moment19:20
fungii'm going ahead and removing it from the priority efforts section of our agenda now19:20
fungithanks clarkb for driving that, and to everyone who helped write and review changes for it19:21
jeblairclarkb: thanks!19:21
clarkbits worth noting that there is apparently a libvirtd realloc issue that e-r is tracking on xenial. (This is why we test like this)19:21
pabelangerindeed, thanks for that19:21
fungiand it's now officially off the agenda ;)19:22
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fungii don't see any priority effort updates for this week, aside from the zuul v3/nodepool specs mentioned above19:22
jeblairclarkb: that's a "nice" reminder that this is actually a thing, despite all the stuff we pip install, etc.  :)19:22
fungioh, though i guess...19:22
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fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Nodepool: Use Zookeeper for Workers19:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Nodepool: Use Zookeeper for Workers (Meeting topic: infra)"19:23
fungias of friday i guess? this is more or less working19:23
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clarkbI think pabelanger said there is a known oustanding issue to be corrected by next daemon restart19:23
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-December/004972.html Upcoming Nodepool changes19:24
jeblairyeah, i've proposed the merge of the zuulv3 branch to master19:24
jeblairand after that lands, i will switch the prod machines back to running from master19:24
funginodepool 0.3.1 (final pre-zk release) was tagged a couple hours ago be jeblair19:24
fungier, by19:24
pabelangerclarkb: yup19:24
clarkbI =2'd it but didn't approve so that we can check the integration tests first19:24
jeblairand after that, we'll restart19:25
clarkbbut otherwise it looked fine to me19:25
jeblairclarkb: good call19:25
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/410357 "Merge feature/zuulv3 into master" change19:25
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fungianything else need saying about this?19:26
fungioh, i remember... does the zk merge effectively drop snapshot image support for now?19:26
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jeblairfungi: yes19:27
fungii assume snapshot images still work in 0.3.119:27
fungiso that'll be a big warning when we release 0.4.0 or whatever i guess19:27
clarkbit was integration tested too up to taht point19:27
clarkbso pretty confident it was working in 0.3.119:28
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fungii recall there was mention of adding support for telling nodepool to use a pre-built image instead of trying to build one. i'm guessing that's not on the roadmap for 0.4.0, is it?19:29
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jeblairfungi: i think it's something we should support, but it's not in our critical path for infra atm so isn't on the immediate roadmap.19:30
clarkbit would probably be a farily straightforward change though if someone wanted to make it19:30
fungii guess the messaging around it will be that we recommend 0.4.0 for anyone who can use dib-built diskimages, and those who rely on snapshot images should continue to pin to <0.4.019:30
clarkbbasically a nodepool.yaml edit to provider images with an image uuid19:30
clarkband teach nodepool to not talk to zk if thats set19:30
clarkbor something19:30
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jeblairclarkb: yep19:30
jeblairit's mostly a matter of *not* doing things :)19:31
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fungicool, just wanted to make sure i was clear on the point at which we were dropping support for that, since i know it's been mildly contentious19:32
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jeblairalso, if anyone wants to write support for that, it can definitely be done in the new system19:32
fungiand if nothing else, we have a recommended feature implementation should someone miss it so much that they want to hack on the alternative solution19:32
fungiyeah, that19:32
jeblairand the same holds true for snapshot builds19:33
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fungianybody want to talk about anything else having to do with the nodepool work on zookeeper-connected workers?19:33
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fungithanks jeblair and pabelanger for getting that into place last week (and to everyone else who worked on it up to now as well)19:34
ianwi spent a bit of time looking at the centos7 zookeeper story again -> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zookeeper-epel719:35
ianwwe'll keep working on it19:35
fungioh, right, so that nodepool 0.4.0 and zuul v3 can continue to be packaged?19:35
fungithat looked like a crazy dep chain19:36
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ianwyeah, it's turtles all the way down19:36
pabelangerYa, hoping to help with the zookeeper effort for centos :)19:36
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ianwi have a "package", that's a zk release stuffed into an rpm19:37
fungipresumably it's all been packaged on debian, so should be packagable on centos as well (if there's enough elbow grease on hand)19:37
clarkbya debuntu has packages19:38
fungi#link https://packages.debian.org/sid/libzookeeper-java where the dep chain starts to show up19:38
pabelangerfedora rawhide has zookeeper RPM, so all the bits are there, just need to get it into epel19:39
pabelangerI've been using that locally, works as expected19:39
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fungioh, so mostly a backporting challenge then, bot a lot of specfiles that need to be written from scratch?19:39
jeblairbot a lot indeed19:39
fungiit's a botload19:39
fungi#topic possible hosting for a nova bugs dashboard (auggy)19:40
*** openstack changes topic to "possible hosting for a nova bugs dashboard (auggy) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:40
fungi#link current nova bugs dashboard19:40
auggyyes! we chatted in #openstack-infra about this19:41
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auggyi just wanted to check on what you all need from me in order to evaluate this request19:41
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-December/108872.html Useful metrics?19:41
fungi(related ml thread)19:41
auggybasically we have this dashboard we use that markus wrote and hosted, and we just want it centralized so it's not depending on a single person19:41
auggyso i thought i'd ask if it made sense to have you all host it, but if you have other suggestions then I'm open to that too19:42
fungi#link https://github.com/markuszoeller/openstack/blob/master/scripts/launchpad/bugs_dashboard.py Creates a HTML file which can be used as a dashboard for cleanup tasks of the bug management.19:42
auggyIt's a python script that runs via cron on the hour that makes some read only queries to launchpand and then renders the results to html19:42
auggythx fungi !19:43
auggyit's also potentially usable by other openstack projects but i'm not sure how custom our bug queries are in that code19:43
fungiwe have this...19:44
JayFauggy: just as a note, Ironic has http://ironic-divius.rhcloud.com -- I don't know where the source is that generates that though. It looks like yours covers our use case + maybe more.19:44
fungi#link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/puppet-bugdaystats/tree/manifests/site.pp19:44
fungicould likely call it from an adjacent cron19:44
jeblairi think the infrastructure is run by and for all the openstack projects, so these should absolutely be run centrally.  any project should feel free to propose changes to infra systems to add things like this.  :)19:44
clarkbmy preference would be to incorporate wahtever we do into bugday, we can evolve it if we need to, but seems like every project has their own one of these thigns and if we had to host a different one for each project well thats not really scalable19:44
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jeblairclarkb: collaboration, if possible would be nice19:45
clarkb(neutron had similar things at one point that did get incorporated into bugday fwiw)19:45
jeblairclarkb: this seems a little different than bugday though19:45
fungi#link https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/bugdaystats19:45
jeblairclarkb: are you thinking of the neutron reviewday thing?19:45
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clarkbjeblair: ya19:45
fungiyeah, neutron's thing is a gerrit dashboard url generator run as part of reviewday19:46
clarkbya using bug info as an input iirc19:46
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fungiwell, sure, reviewday itself is also doing lp queries to line reviews up with open bugs, blueprints, et cetera19:46
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auggyso if you want me to look at bugday or another tool you already have and see about integrating this into that then i can do that and then come back19:46
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fungibugday has graphs of bug status changes over time but is currently short-duration and high-frequency updates19:48
persiaIs the scale issue about execution resources, or maintenance over time?19:48
clarkbright, I guess my point is I think its ok to fix deficiencies in bugday so that it works for the larger set of use cases19:48
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clarkblike neutron has done19:48
clarkband potentially ironic and nova could do19:48
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fungipersia: more about target audience/use case i think19:48
jeblairyeah, any integration with existing tools would be great as collectively we can spend time on making fewer tools better rather than all writing the same tool over19:48
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jeblairhowever, i'd rather see us running 5 redundant tools centrally than 5 redundant tools in random hosting places19:49
persiaSo, one tool with per-project views?19:49
fungii think sdague also makes a good point that we have a lot of tooling built around graphite now, and bugday is relatively simple and could stand to be redone in something more inline with our present toolset too19:50
jeblairyeah, bugday -> graphite would be pretty easy19:50
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fungiso maybe this script could seed a new bugstat project of some kind that can repace the bugday use cases as well with some graphs once someone wants to implement that part of it19:51
auggyyeah i could work with markus to set it up in an openstack repo under infra or wherever you all think is best19:51
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fungiwith graphite/grafana we can easily accommodate the old bugday use case (what did our squash impact look like in a 24 hour period) along with longer trending bug managers want to see19:52
persiaWith nova workflow, but for selectable project?19:52
auggywell that's the work that would have to be done on it19:52
fungiit wouldn't be the first time nova's workflow for something got adopted by a ton of other projects ;)19:53
auggyi haven't looked to see how specific the lp queries are but potentially one could specify them seperately to match their bugs19:53
fungiso i'm not going to push for adding more to bugday unless this is the start of a bugday v2 reimplementation anyway19:53
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auggyeg, what queries do you want to go with which tabs kind of thing19:54
auggykk how about i work with markus to set this up as an openstack-infra repo project thingy?19:54
auggyand then do some work to make it more project universal?19:54
fungibut running this from a cron in the bugdaystats::site class and adding a tab on status.o.o for it or whatever seems fine to me19:54
fungiauggy: i think that sounds like a fine plan19:55
fungianyone disagree?19:55
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auggythanks :)19:56
fungi#agreed The current Nova bug dashboard authors are welcome to import their work into a new Infra repo and then work on making it generalized for other projects' use.19:56
fungionce that step is done, we can get more into the weeds on how to automate deployment and where to link/display it19:56
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fungi#topic Open discussion19:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:57
fungi2.5 minutes to go19:57
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pabelangermeeting next week? or holidays?19:57
clarkband week after and weke after19:58
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EmilienMI didn't know infra folks would take holidays :-D19:58
* EmilienM runs19:58
clarkbI am likely to be around all but the 27th19:58
* jeblair trips EmilienM before he can get to the door19:58
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fungiyeah, i'm here at least for the 20th and can chair19:58
jeblairi should be around19:59
ttxI would appreciate some reviews on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/408284/ and friends, to close that before the holidays19:59
clarkbmy brother works weekends and has monday's and tuesdays off so that stretch of 25-27 will likely be family time19:59
fungii will likely be in a car for much of the 27th so maybe we should cancel that one unless someone wants to chair for me?19:59
jeblairi don't plan on being around from 26-3019:59
fungii'll be available to chair again on january 319:59
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EmilienMjust a random question: who is here during that time? in case something breaks hard19:59
fungiso yeah, let's plan to cancel the meeting for the 27th20:00
ttxsafe bet20:00
fungioh, and we're out of time!20:00
fungithanks everyone20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec 13 20:00:21 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-12-13-19.03.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-12-13-19.03.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-12-13-19.03.log.html20:00
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ttxflaper87, fungi, johnthetubaguy, mordred, stevemar: around ?20:00
ttxthingee is excused, busy parenting20:00
* fungi never left20:01
ttxsdague and mtreinish told me they would likely be a bit late20:01
* fungi never leaves20:01
ttxWe have quorum20:01
ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec 13 20:01:19 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
* edleafe hides in the back20:01
ttxHi everyone!20:01
ttxOur agenda for today:20:01
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:01
ttx(remember to use #info #idea and #link liberally to make for a more readable summary)20:01
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ttxdolphm: around ?20:01
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* ttx starts with the second topic to give time for dolphm to maybe join us20:02
ttx#topic Some early contribution stats for Ocata (ttx)20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Some early contribution stats for Ocata (ttx) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
ttxI ran some stats last week to look into early Ocata cycle contributions20:02
ttxto try to see if we had projects that were very affected by recent changes at various companies20:02
ttxIt's still pretty early (not much data), but there are early signs20:02
* stevemar is eager to hear about this data20:03
dolphmttx: yes20:03
ttxFigured I should share20:03
ttxI compared changes merged during first 5 weeks of Mitaka (including Thanksgiving) with first 5 weeks of Ocata20:03
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ttxto have comparable timeframes in terms of holidays and such20:03
ttxAnd tried to ponder the results with Mitaka -> Newton trends, to isolate Ocata data20:03
ttxI only looked up projects that are used in 10%+ of installs (according to user survey)20:03
ttxMost affected project is clearly Designate, with a -63% drop between first weeks of Ocata and first weeks of Mitaka20:03
* Rockyg slides in next to edleafe and waves hi20:03
ttx(while activity in Newton had increased +35% compared to Mitaka !)20:03
ttxOther Ocata visibly-affected projects included:20:04
* smcginnis notes the goals of the shorter cycle may also have some impact there.20:04
ttxsmcginnis: yes, that is a good caveat indeed20:04
ttxNova (-6% while activity in Newton was +30% compared to Mitaka)20:04
ttxCinder (-25% while activity in Newton was +7% compared to Mitaka)20:04
* edleafe waves back20:04
ttxRally (-48% while Newton was only -9% compared to Mitaka)20:04
ttxKeystone (-31% while activity in Newton was only -3% compared to Mitaka)20:04
ttxThose ^ mostly due to attrition in changes proposed, not really to core bandwidth20:05
ttxso might point to what smcginnis just said20:05
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ttxSahara (-44% while Newton was only -7% compared to Mitaka)20:05
ttxInfrastructure (-15% while activity in Newton was +20% compared to Mitaka)20:05
ttxTelemetry (-41% while Newton was down -12% compared to Mitaka)20:05
ttxThose ^ mostly due to attrition in core reviews, since changes were still proposed20:05
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ttxSome other projects have a ~50% drop but the reduced activity started in Newton, so not exclusively an Ocata artifact:20:05
ttxGlance (-58% but Newton was already down -32%)20:05
ttxHeat (-52% but Newton was already -20%)20:05
ttxDocs (-48% but Newton was already -25%)20:05
ttxOther projects are doing relatively well, or are even in good shape (Oslo, Manila)20:06
johnthetubaguythe docs one seems a massive concern to me20:06
ttxjohnthetubaguy: probably part of a larger trend20:06
flaper87johnthetubaguy: well, glance too, tbh20:06
stevemarjohnthetubaguy: they all seem like massive concerns to me :)20:06
ttxI'll refresh those stats once we have more data, and keep you posted.20:06
dims++ stevemar20:06
edleafettx: did you count nova and nova-specs together? Or just nova?20:06
johnthetubaguystevemar ++20:06
flaper87the core team keeps shrinking and so do contributions20:06
ttxedleafe: just nova20:06
flaper87stevemar: my point exactly20:06
dhellmannttx: do you have the latest numbers on core reviewer team attrition?20:06
johnthetubaguyttx: so I forgot the doc split out... ignore me a little20:07
ttxdhellmann: I just have our notes20:07
dhellmannok, those should be up to date afaik20:07
ttxraw data at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/iFoG829Xig for those playing at home20:08
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dhellmannit would be interesting to match up the review stats changes with the team stats changes to see if there's any correlation20:08
dhellmannas flaper87 said, we keep seeing folks step down from core teams20:08
ttxdhellmann: I tried, it's not as clear-cut as I thought it could be20:08
ildikovjohnthetubaguy: ttx: on the docs one, some parts of the docs is moved back to project repos, which can lead to changing numbers regarding the OS Manuals activities too20:09
dhellmannthough I've also noticed a few teams enrolling new members20:09
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ttxildikov: yes, good point20:09
EmilienMon a positive side, a lot of projects still have good progress20:09
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johnthetubaguyildikov: yeah, thats what I was attempting to say above after remembering it, its tricker/better than it looks20:09
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dhellmannit would also be interesting to see if the individual contributors who are doing less work in project X are doing more work in project Y, so focus is changing (versus leaving entirely)20:10
ildikovjohnthetubaguy: yeap, more complex to follow that this way20:10
ttxThe only project that is seriously in danger is Designate imho, so maybe we could communicate a bit more about it20:10
dhellmannthat would be more complicated ot produce, though20:10
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* flaper87 will look at the data in more detail20:11
* dims spots the drop in "Fuel"20:11
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dhellmannttx: I think some of those longer term trends show projects in trouble, too20:11
ttxOnce we reach the holidays I'll refresh the data20:11
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ttxdhellmann: yes20:11
dhellmannjust not as suddenly20:11
ttxthat should give us a better sample20:11
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ttxAnyway, I thought you would appreciate a heads-up20:12
ttxNext topic ?20:12
dimsthanks ttx dhellmann this is definitely helpful20:12
flaper87ttx: thanks for the data20:12
EmilienMbeside recent layoffs, do we know other reasons of such changes?20:12
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mordredpretty much layoffs20:12
EmilienMI've also seen people moving their focus on something else20:12
ttxEmilienM: foir the Ocata oddities, definitely the "staffing changes"20:12
fungifrom infra's perspective, it's almost all employment-related challenges20:13
johnthetubaguy"staffing changes" is probably more accurate20:13
ttxfor the larger trends, disaffection for boring infrastructure plays a bit20:13
dhellmannyes, it's not just folks losing jobs, some companies are keeping their engineers, but putting them on other projects20:13
dimsright dhellmann20:13
ttxok, back to our schedule20:13
johnthetubaguyso we are certainly "less cool" in the hype curve sense20:13
ttx#topic Do not allow data plane downtime during upgrades20:13
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*** openstack changes topic to "Do not allow data plane downtime during upgrades (Meeting topic: tc)"20:13
ttxI think it was renames since20:14
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/40436120:14
ttxdolphm: o/20:14
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ttxI think the recent split version is technically fine...20:14
ttxI'm just struggling understanding *what* that level of granularity really brings us20:14
dhellmannyes, thanks for doing that20:14
ttxlike the motivation behind adding it20:14
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ttxCould you give an example of a deployer question that tag would answer ?20:14
ttxOr which project we expect to strive to reach that specific level (rather than directly reach for zero-downtime or zero-impact upgrades)20:15
dolphmi see them as parallel paths for projects to pursue20:15
dolphmso, assuming your project has basic upgrade capabilities...20:15
ttxah, classify them in terms of backend effects rather than frontend effects ?20:15
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dolphmthe next two steps you can pursue in parallel are either rolling upgrades (intermixing service versions) OR testing to ensure that your "controlled resources" (VMs, networks, data storage, etc) do not become unavailable at any point during the upgrade process20:16
ttxok, got it20:17
dimsi like the step-by-step approach dolphm20:17
ttxother questions ?20:17
dhellmannI got a little confused in the discussion of neutron issues20:17
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* flaper87 had the same question as ttx and it's now answered20:17
dhellmannit sounds like some backends are always going to be disruptive during upgrades?20:17
sdagueexcept, we already test controlled resources work when the control plane is offline20:17
dhellmannif that's the case, would neutron every be able to have this tag?20:17
dolphmdhellmann: neutron or not, there are likely pluggable choices in every project that will cause you to sacrifice certain features of the upgrade process (feature support matrix, anyone?)20:18
mordreddhellmann: I believe that's backend specific20:18
sdaguedhellmann: I guess the question is whether that's a product of neutron architecture, or backends20:18
sdagueovs has specific issues when restarting iirc20:18
dhellmannmordred : right, but the tag only applies to a deliverable, with no metadata to indicate that it may not always work as advertised20:18
ttxone could argue that dropping packets is thing healthy networks do :)20:19
mordreddhellmann: that's an _excellent_ point20:19
flaper87and it applies to type:service20:19
dolphmdhellmann: my thinking is that if there is *a* well tested, ideally default configuration upstream that can satisfy all these requirements, then the project deserves the tag20:19
dhellmannyes, I don't think we guarantee no packet loss even in normal operation without an upgrade in progress, do we?20:19
johnthetubaguyyeah, the tag used to be there is *a* way and its clear what that is20:19
dhellmanndolphm : ok, I haven't had a chance to review the latest draft, is this issue covered in the text?20:19
fungialso depends a lot on how far into the controlled infrastructure those guarantees extend20:20
dhellmannmaybe by saying that any caveats have to be documented?20:20
dolphmdhellmann: the notion of only requiring a single happy path? no20:20
dhellmanndolphm : "at least one happy path"20:20
sdagueI do have concerns about splitting this out - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/404361/3/reference/tags/assert_supports-accessible-upgrade.rst - because we already do that in default testing, unless I'm misunderstanding20:20
dolphmdhellmann: (no, but) i think the notion of a happy path applies to all the upgrade tags, not just this one20:21
johnthetubaguysdague: certainly plan A was to keep it together, but there were issues or "redefining" the existing tag20:21
fungiwhile i'm not a fan of the "control plane" and "data plane" terminology, it does seem a bit out of place to make data plane guarantees about projects which are mostly control plane20:21
dhellmanndolphm : ok, that's fair. Maybe we can get that clarified in an update20:21
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: it's not really redefining, it is being explicit a thing that was an implicit piece of this20:22
dolphmfungi: perhaps projects need to be able to apply for a tags with a "not applicable to me" status?20:22
ttxsdague: there may be a gap between "verify resources are still working after upgrade" and "verify resources were not changed in any way after upgrade"20:22
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dhellmannand "verify resources are still working *during* the upgrade" which is what this says, right?20:22
sdaguettx: their may be, but the intent was that was the check we've been running for 4 years20:22
fungidolphm: hrm... maybe i guess20:22
sdaguemaybe 3 years20:22
ttxsdague: do all projects check that ?20:23
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EmilienMttx: not afik20:24
sdaguettx: right now, I doubt it20:24
ttxThere are two dimensions: availability and integrity20:24
sdaguebut the intent is there20:24
ttxWe test availability and that is what dolphm baked into the base tag20:24
dhellmannintent would be sufficient if we didn't already have a bunch of projects claiming the existing tag20:24
ttxThe other tag requires integrity20:24
ttx(i.e. the resource has not been altered)20:24
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ttxbut fungi has a point20:25
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ttxit bleeds a bit into data-side implementation20:25
sdaguefungi: so the reason that we need to make those guaruntees, is that they are easy to screw up20:25
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fungiit's sort of like having a tag that says nova upgrades won't cause it to tell libvirt to reboot your instances, i guess?20:25
sdaguefungi, or delete them20:26
flaper87fungi: yup20:26
dhellmannor pause them20:26
sdaguewhich it did back in essex at times20:26
ttx(Timeboxing this to 5 more minutes, since it feels like it could use a bit more iterations on the review)20:26
sdaguebecause replumbing in existing stuff and not modifying it needs to be front and center20:26
fungiso this ends up being more about making sure that control plane services don't tell data plane services to take destructuve actions during a control plane upgrade20:27
sdagueright, that consumer workloads in your cloud will be fine as you upgrade your openstack infrastructure around them20:27
mordredfungi: that's my understanding20:27
dolphmfungi: sdague: mordred: ++20:27
fungiwhereas we can't make general guarantees about those data plane services themselves20:27
dims"end user created resources still continue to function during and after upgrade"?20:28
fungisince we don't produce them20:28
sdaguewhich gives you a lot more confidence that you can upgrade your cloud without destroying all your users20:28
fungiso it's not "libvirt won't reboot your instances during a nova upgrade" and more "nova won't tell libvirt to reboot your instances during a nova upgrade"20:28
persiaAlthough ideally user services cannot identify an upgrade is happening, reducing the chance a crash there is upgrade-related.20:28
dolphmoverall, the spirit of this whole effort is basically "i should be able to upgrade openstack continuously without impacting my customers / workloads / etc"20:29
johnthetubaguyfungi: thats my take20:29
dhellmannfungi : right20:29
dimsright dolphm20:29
sdaguedolphm: yeh, definitely20:29
ttxok, looks like we can iterate on the review and converge to something around "no destructive actions"20:29
johnthetubaguydolphm: +120:29
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ttxdolphm: Maybe iterate on the review and come back next week ?20:29
dolphmttx: ++20:29
sdagueI just want to make sure that we don't make our taxonomy of that so complex, given that "upgrade that destroys my workloads" isn't really worth even talking about20:30
ttxok, thanks, I understand it a lot better now20:30
johnthetubaguysdague: +1 thats totally a worry20:30
sdaguethat's my basic objection, I feel like it makes the upgrade tag pointless because it doesn't give the fundamental table stakes we should expect20:30
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johnthetubaguymight be worth the cost of dropping the tag from everyone and making them re-apply20:31
dolphmsdague: i feel that's the slipperly slope i'm on with this new tag, especially because it's no longer a linear series of milestones (at least, not necessarily)20:31
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sdagueand I'd rather clarify that the the table stakes are real, and prune some projects from it if we have to20:31
ttxthen you fall in the "redefine existing tag" rathole20:31
sdaguettx: sure20:31
fungii could get behind merging this expectation into the normal upgrade tag20:31
sdaguebut since when are all tags idempotent?20:32
ttxbut yeah, let's continue that discussion on the review20:32
fungi"expectation we failed to call out explicitly"20:32
ttxHaving an idea of which projects would be dropped would help20:32
sdaguefungi: yep, we made an oversight, lets fix it20:32
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mugsiewell, all of them20:32
dhellmannit's not that all tags are immutable, it's that this appeared to add a large new expectation to an existing tag without documentation that all of the projects using the tag met the requirement20:32
flaper87dhellmann: ++20:32
mugsieas none of the test that everything works *during* the upgrade20:33
dolphmdhellmann: ++20:33
mugsienone of them*20:33
sdaguemugsie: it's testing, nothing tests everything20:33
sdaguetesting is about representative use cases and verifying them20:33
sdaguesee: halting problem :)20:33
mugsienova's grenade test does not test a vm is accessable *during* the upgrade phase20:33
ttxwe could set them up as separate tags with the goal of removing the simpler version once it's all obsoleted20:33
sdaguemugsie: yes it does20:33
fungihaving some tests before making this change might still be in order20:33
sdaguemugsie: define during20:34
dhellmannsdague : while the new version of nova is being installed and started20:34
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dhellmannincluding any database changes20:34
mugsiewhile the nova services have the code replaced and restarted20:34
sdaguedhellmann: so... I don't know that you can build infrastructure that guaruntees that because you are racing20:34
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ttxok, I'll have to cut this one short and ask to continue on the review. This is clearly not ready for immediate merging anyway20:35
dhellmannsdague : which may not be a big deal for nova, but it appears to be *the* case where neutron would fail to meet these requirements20:35
sdaguewe test pre shutdown, during shutdown, post upgrade20:35
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sdaguedhellmann: yeh... the neutron ovs issue is one that would need thought20:35
dhellmannttx: ack, let's move on20:35
sdaguepart of it is going to require architecture inspection + testing20:35
ttx#topic Driver teams: remaining options20:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Driver teams: remaining options (Meeting topic: tc)"20:35
sdagueto know if the tests are an acurate reflection of reality20:35
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ttxstevemar distilled the discussion from last week down to 4 remaining options:20:36
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/403826 (fallback)20:36
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/403829 (grey, amended)20:36
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/403836 (soft black)20:36
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/403839 (soft white)20:36
ttxI did a pass at optimizing "grey" to try to address fungi's concerns with it20:36
stevemar(really 3 options, fallback is just that)20:36
ttx(basically reducing the risk of it being abused as a registry of drivers where you want to place brands)20:36
ttxNot sure what's next step20:36
fungiyeah, i'm +1 on it now. while still not my preference, i can see it working out20:36
ttxI could quickly set up a Condorcet to help us order those20:36
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ttxif you feel that's sueful20:37
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ttxor just vote on them20:37
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flaper87what about we all vote for our preference first ?20:37
flaper87and eventually vote for the second prefered option20:37
ttxyeah, let's try that -- setting up that condorcet with all your email addrseses is not fun20:37
stevemarmight be worth seeing what neutron/cinder/nova folks feel, or the folks working on the drivers20:37
EmilienMflaper87: yes20:38
ttxstevemar: I'm not saying approving it20:38
stevemarof course not20:38
ttxI'm saying having a good candidate20:38
fungistevemar: can you encourage them to respond to the ml thread or jump in here?20:38
sdaguestevemar: especially neutron folks, as this is driven a bit from that community20:38
stevemarfungi: smcginnis chimed in last week20:38
fungithe point of bringing it to the ml first is so they could weigh in more easily20:38
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fungiyep, smcginnis did. but in general feedback on the ml was pretty minimal20:39
fungimost responses were from tc members :/20:39
stevemarjust re-iterating the fact that if we're coming up with a solution then we should include the people it'll affect. i can certainly try to encourage them20:39
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smcginnisI think it makes sense for the tc to vett the options here, then have the teams chime in on a ML thread.20:39
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smcginnisOnce things are narrowed down a little, that might help focus the dicussion.20:39
dimsttx : can we check if anyone still wants to pursue the 2 soft reviews? if not we can prune them20:39
flaper87the grey option seems to have 7 votes already20:39
stevemarsmcginnis: we already did a first pass, there are 3 options now-ish20:40
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johnthetubaguyso from a Nova view, it says using established plugin interfaces, Nova doesn't have one for drivers, which keeps things as they are today (in a good way)20:40
ttxgrey has a majority of +1 now, so we could refine it over the week and push it back to the thread for further discussion ?20:40
flaper87ttx: was writing just that20:40
fungimaybe if we go forward with a non-binding vote and ping the ml thread with a "this is what the tc is leaning toward" update...20:40
ttxfungi: yes20:40
smcginnisstevemar: Yep. Just thinking it might be good to start a thread saying the TC sees options x or y as possible, we'd like team input. Or something like that.20:40
dimsttx : ++20:40
mordredttx: sooooo ... combining our thinking about this topic with the previous topic ...20:40
flaper87fungi: ttx ++20:40
stevemarttx: yeah, its probably easier to present one choice instead of three20:41
ttxre: upgrades ?20:41
mordredI could see a point in the future where we might want to be able to give a rolling-upgrade tag to drivers20:41
mordredlike "nova has no-downtime upgrades as  aproject, and libvirt and xen also do as drivers, but nova-docker doesn't" _for_instance_20:41
ttxmordred: the trick is in-tree drivers, would all have to pass20:41
ttx(a worthwhile goal, but maybe would hinder in-tree drivers a bit)20:42
mordredttx: no clue - this is purely an inthefuture thought - but I'd think we'd want to be able to enumerate and tag them20:42
fungiyeah, tags are per-deliverable or per-team20:42
mordredwe should not block anything on this thought20:42
mordredjust a thought I had for future mulling20:42
fungiwe'd need to adjust the tag data model further20:42
ttxOK, I'll take that one back to the ML20:42
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mordredbecause it might take a while to figure out :)20:42
sdagueI think that if reality is complicated, and we need to break out descriptions of what things work with what drivers, that's fine. We need to not be too stuck on existing boundaries of tags.20:42
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dhellmannyeah, I'd rather we just use lots of words to say things where binary flags fall short20:42
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ttx#action ttx to push "amended grey" back to the ML for final discussion before approval20:43
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ttxmoving on20:43
dhellmannthere's a bit of feedback from JayF about the API restriction causing issues for ironic, too20:43
sdaguetags, like anything else, are high level approximations of reality. They are fine as long as you realize they are low fidelity approximations, and dangerous the moment you believe your frictionless spherical elephants are real :)20:43
ttx#topic Relaxing IRC meeting policy20:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Relaxing IRC meeting policy (Meeting topic: tc)"20:43
ttxThere was a thread about IRC meeting rooms, which concluded with:20:43
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-December/108604.html20:44
ttxSome of the proposed actions may increase the silo-ing in some teams, so I wanted to run those past you first20:44
ttxFirst action is to remove artificial scarcity by creating more meeting rooms, which will result in more concentration of meetings.20:44
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ttxPretty much everyone agreed that's a necessary evil now, so we went ahead and created #openstack-meeting-5 last week20:44
ttxSecond action is to remove the requirement of holding team meetings in common channels20:44
ttx(and allow team meetings in team channels)20:44
ttxThis one is slightly more questionable, as it reduces external exposure and reinforces silos20:44
ttxSo I wanted to check that it was OK with you before proceeding (as you were mostly silent on that thread)20:45
mtreinishI'm not really a fan of that second thing20:45
mtreinishfor the reasons you mentioned20:45
ttx(alternatively, we could try first part and wait a bit before doing anything on the second part)20:45
mtreinishI also don't idle in all the project channels :)20:45
mordredI mean ... I'm also not a fan of the second thing - but the Big Tent has brought us enough teams that have effectively no interaction that forcing folks into arbitrary meeting rooms also seems weird20:45
sdaguemordred: yeh20:46
johnthetubaguygiven timezone differences, and everything else, as long as its logged and open, we have got the main things20:46
dimsmtreinish : those of us working across a bunch of things don't like it BUT those who exclusively live in a couple of channels would love it20:46
mordredhowever, I do get pinged in random meetings sometimes20:46
johnthetubaguymordred: +120:46
stevemarmtreinish: it causes a whole lot of scheduling pain for a "regular" meeting channel20:46
ttxI'm pinged in random meeting rooms about twice a day20:46
fungiat least that many for me as well20:46
sdagueI also am not sure the expecting people to idle everywhere is the right expectation anyway20:46
EmilienMpeople who want to join a meeting just /join the channel and that's it? how is it a problem and how does it create silos? we should let people working together and avoid private meetings, that's all20:46
dtroyerI think if you are having the meeting in a project channel you simply will not be able to assume random folk will see a ping20:46
stevemarttx: mordred wouldn't that mean you get pinged in project channel rooms instead ?20:46
dhellmannI'm probably pinged once a week or so; sometimes more20:46
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ttxit feels people will miss my awesome insights by hiding in channels I don't lurk in :)20:46
mtreinishdims: right, that's the reinforcing silos thing20:47
stevemarttx: lurk in more channels ;)20:47
ttxstevemar: but would miss them20:47
JayFThe only weirdness about holding a meeting in a project channel is that it makes for a very strange experience should a first time user drop into IRC mid-meeting.20:47
dhellmannsdague : ++20:47
johnthetubaguysdague: yeah, if nothing else, it feels very timezone silly to me20:47
dimsJayF : true20:47
ttxstevemar: difficult to keep track20:47
fungii also get pinged many times a day in random project channels too, yes, but only high-profile ones i happen to idle in (probably others too i just don't see them since i'm not there)20:47
dhellmannJayF : yes, that's a concern I had, too20:47
RockygI think new teams or teams applying for big tent should be in a meeting channel until they have some momentum20:47
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EmilienMdtroyer, dhellmann: imho, if you miss a ping, that's not a big deal. Most of our problems can be solved async. versus during an irc meeting20:47
smcginnisIf someone needs to jump out of a meeting to ping someone in that person's specific project channel asking them to join - I don't see that as any kind of major burden.20:48
stevemarRockyg: i was thinking the opposite :)20:48
dhellmannEmilienM : yeah, I'll start expecting more email on the -dev list :-)20:48
ttxsmcginnis: feels almost like a PTG20:48
fungigoing back to the time when most everything happened in #openstack-dev, #openstack-meeting provided a quiet haven to host an irc meeting without people popping in interrupting with off-topic randomness20:48
sdaguehonestly, it wouldn't be bad if that meant the expectation wasn't that you were in 4 meeting channels, but instead you were in #openstack-dev when active, and that was the common ping bus20:48
smcginnissdague: +120:49
ttxsdague: +120:49
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dimsagree sdague20:49
Rockygsdague, +120:49
johnthetubaguysdague: good point20:49
ttxmaybe we could relax one and reinforce the other20:49
EmilienMTC should help projects to work together. If teams want to use their own channels, go ahead. I don't think we should make a rule for that20:49
mtreinishEmilienM: it already is a rule20:49
flaper87I'd bee ok with projects having meetings in their own channels if possible20:49
ttxEmilienM: not a rule, just allowing it (currently irc-meetings prevents it)20:49
sdagueI also kind of wonder if part of the issue is the awkwardness of drilling into meeting archived content20:49
flaper87and then for random pings just use -dev20:49
dims++ flaper8720:50
fungii'd strongly discourage teams having meetings in their own channels, but expect that many of them who think it's a cool idea at first will switch to wanting to have them in a separate channel from their general discussion channels eventually20:50
ttxok, I think we can proceed with relaxing the gate check at least and altering MUST -> SHOULD in some literature20:50
RockygThe reason I'd like new eams to be in meeting channel is they tend to be more single vendor.  I;ve see good things happen when a veteran openstacker jumps into the middle of one of those meetings because of trigger words20:50
EmilienM(I'm personally not in love with IRC meetings, specially in distributed teams. I think most of our problems can be solved by email or gerrit)20:50
cdentirc logs are not great20:50
fungiand i don't want to see us adding #openstack-nova-meeting and #openstack-cinder-meeting and so on20:51
dimsRockyg : you mean why is this random person messing with us? :)20:51
RockygUh, yeah, that's it, dims20:51
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ttxAnyway, if you care one way or another, please chime in on thread, otherwise i'll probably go ahead and implement it20:51
flaper87EmilienM: yup20:51
ttxWe need to move to Open discussion, a few things to cover there20:51
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ttx#topic Open Discussion20:52
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:52
mordredRockyg: ++20:52
ttx1/ Joint BoD+TC meeting around PTG20:52
ttxThe Board would like to have a Board+TC meeting around the PTG20:52
ttxThey propose to hold the joint meeting on Friday afternoon20:52
ttxSince most teams will run for 2 or 2.5 days anyway, I think that's doable20:52
ttxWe could push back and ask to hold it on Sunday afternoon instead, but I'm not a big fan of 6-day work streaks20:52
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ttxAlso it's not really an issue if some TC members end up being busy elsewhere20:52
ttxnot as if all board members would be present20:52
fungiobviously this impacts attendees who panned to work on vertical team stuff for the full 3 days20:53
ttxopinions / strong feelings ?20:53
EmilienMSunday is usually the day spent on travels :-/20:53
fungier, planned20:53
johnthetubaguyafternoon means one more hotel day for me, I gess20:53
EmilienMfungi: right20:53
johnthetubaguyEmilienM: I was thinking that too20:53
dtroyerGiven that choice, I'd much prefer Friday20:53
ttxjohnthetubaguy: sunday too probably20:53
dimswas waiting for a decision on this to book flights...20:53
ttxfungi: not so many teams plan to do full 3 days20:53
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mordredif we're going to have one of these co-located friday afternoon, it would be great if it was treated as important on the board side - it often feels like we lose people for the TC section of board meetings20:53
EmilienMit also means most of people would need to travel on Saturday.20:53
fungigood to know20:53
sdaguettx: well, the nova team does20:53
johnthetubaguyttx: true20:54
sdagueand we20:54
ttxbut yes, some will and I guess it's fine to prioritze that over the joint BoD/TC20:54
dims++ mordred20:54
sdaguewe've got a few nova core members that are in this pool :)20:54
ttxmordred: I can make that clear20:54
fungimordred: in this case instead of leaving mid-day and skipping the joint meeting, those people will just not come there at all i guess?20:54
flaper87if we're having it on the PTG, I guess I'd prefer it on Friday20:54
EmilienM+1 for Friday20:54
flaper87this is the first PTG and I'd like to first see how it pans out20:54
stevemari'm okay with sunday afternoon only because it's easy to get to ATL; but friday works too20:54
mordredI'm going to be tired and would prefer to go home, but will show up at the meeting. I'll be annoyed if I show up at the meeting and it's a ghost town. nobody wants a grumpy monty in a room20:54
flaper87instead of adding more days to it20:54
fungior is the board planning to have a board meeting before the joint meeting again too?20:54
ttxfungi: they will yes20:55
sdaguemordred: right, it does feel like a Friday afternoon is going to be sparse20:55
EmilienM(can't we make it during an evening in a piano bar?) :-)20:55
ttxsdague: they come to town exclusively for that day though20:55
dims++ EmilienM20:55
dhellmannfrom what I saw, most of the board wasn't planning to come to the ptg for any other reason20:55
flaper87EmilienM: with some rum20:55
fungioh, so friday attendees get to choose between vertical team ptg stuff and board meeting as well20:55
ttxsdague: so I don't think they would come to ATL just for the morning20:55
ttxbut who knows20:56
ttxOK, I'll communicate that back. It's not mandatory anyway20:56
sdagueso, personally either I guess is fine. The flights from here are pretty direct. As long as we nail it down soon20:56
EmilienMfungi: you, stevemar and me are PTL, it would be hard for us to make a choice :-/20:56
dhellmannI'm slightly more in favor of Sunday, but I understand the objections to the long week that would cause.20:56
ttxWe can sync before so that if you are stuck in a room, your views are represented20:56
sdaguedhellmann: yeh, I would say I would lean Sunday20:56
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flaper87ttx: I know it's not mandatory but if it'll happen, it kinda feels that way20:56
fungiEmilienM: at least my team's assigned ptg days are monday/tuesday (yours as well?) harder for stevemar20:56
flaper87if you know what I mean20:56
johnthetubaguy+1 on knowing soon, I expect most folks are booking pre new year, I believe I am meant to20:56
mtreinishdhellmann: I'm leaning the same way20:56
flaper87I feel it's part of my job as TC member to attend20:57
flaper87and I want to be there20:57
johnthetubaguywhat about Monday?20:57
johnthetubaguyits a cross project thing?20:57
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mordredmonday is bad for horizontal team things20:57
stevemarfungi: it's just a bit of time anyway, i can break away from keystone-y stuff for a bit20:57
ttxjohnthetubaguy: the horizontal stuff only has 2 days, can't burn one20:57
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johnthetubaguymordred: true20:57
fungiEmilienM: though ptg is also after ptl elections, so maybe none of us will be ptls by then ;)20:57
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy : a different set of TC members wouldn't be able to attend in that case :-)20:57
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ttxok, I'll start a -tc thread on that20:57
EmilienMfungi: we are verticial20:57
ttx2/ Progress on Amend reference/PTI with supported distros (https://review.openstack.org/402940)20:57
ttxEmilienM wanted to unblock this review20:57
stevemarfungi: that's the hope! :P20:57
EmilienMfungi: who knows? :-)20:57
sdaguettx: I guess the second question is is this a normal 3 hour cross section? Or are we talking about the whole day?20:57
EmilienMstevemar: talk for you :P20:58
ttx#action ttx to start a thread on the -tc list to see what is most popular20:58
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fungiEmilienM: oh, for some reason i thought the deployment teams ended up on monday/tuesday as well20:58
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dhellmannsdague : half day20:58
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sdague2-5 on Friday is one thing, all day friday is different20:58
* dims will be missing kid2's bday 2 years in a row20:58
ttxsdague: Friday afternoon20:58
EmilienMfungi: it was and it changed20:58
ttxor Sunday afternoon20:58
EmilienMttx: thx for bringing it up again20:58
fungiEmilienM: i should pay closer attention20:58
EmilienMttx: I see zero blocker now for this change to be accepted20:58
mordredmy main concern is that I'm looking forwrad to the PTG being super productive - and I don't want to fall into the trap of turning it in to a second summit by cramming additional things in if we can help it20:58
sdaguemordred: yeh...20:59
ttxmordred: yes, not looking forward another 6-day thing20:59
sdaguewe did try to make this different20:59
ttxwhich is why I lean towards Friday20:59
EmilienMfungi: no worries, we changed it very recently. Main reason: tripleo is not horizontal and we need to attend horizontal sessions (infra, etc)20:59
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flaper87mordred: my thoughts exactly20:59
sdaguettx: or a 5 day thing fo being double book20:59
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dhellmannttx: do we have the option of just saying "no, we'll be busy all week"?20:59
sdaguehonestly, I think my actual preference is not to do it at all there :)20:59
ttxEmilienM: difficult to switch focus20:59
johnthetubaguyis it crazy to consider a virtual joint meeting instead?20:59
EmilienMttx: sounds like we're running out of time. Maybe next meeting20:59
EmilienMttx: or maybe I'll ping people to review it.21:00
ttxEmilienM: yeah, that21:00
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ttxthat way we can finalize it next week quickly21:00
ttxflaper87: same for https://review.openstack.org/39887521:00
flaper87ttx: sounds good21:00
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ttxAlso if someone could tell me how useful https://review.openstack.org/406696 is, I would appreciate it21:00
flaper87ppl, read ^21:00
dimsdhellmann : ++21:00
ttxAnd we are out of time21:01
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EmilienMttx: bonne nuit!21:01
ttx#action ttx to finalizer the Friday/Sunday decision in a -tc ML thread21:01
fungido we have a tentative agenda for the meeting? wondering if this is to continue the board discussion on accepting other languages, making emerging trendy technologies first class citizens and restructuring project governance, or other stuff21:01
fungioh, out of time21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec 13 21:01:37 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-12-13-20.01.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-12-13-20.01.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-12-13-20.01.log.html21:01
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ttxfungi: I'll raise a thread so that we make progress on it this week21:01
fungithanks ttx!21:01
dimsthanks ttx21:02
christx2scientific group meeting is on?21:02
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martialchristx2: that is the plan :)21:02
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b1airo#startmeeting scientific-wg21:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Dec 13 21:02:21 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is b1airo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg'21:02
ttxchristx2 blairo: sorry for overrunning21:02
christx2cool, listening - christoph - london, uk21:02
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b1airono probs ttx21:02
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b1airohi christx2 !21:02
b1airo#chair martial21:02
openstackCurrent chairs: b1airo martial21:02
trandleshello all o/21:03
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* ildikov is lurking :)21:03
b1airohi there Time21:03
b1airo*Tim (sorry!)21:03
trandleslol, np21:03
b1airoagenda is at #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_working_group#IRC_Meeting_December_13th_201621:04
lizhongHi all, I am Lizhong working with Martial from NIST21:04
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b1airogreetings lizhong, welcome21:04
b1airoGPUs and Virtualisation:21:04
b1airoGetting set up for virtualising GPU hardware21:04
b1airoPerformance optimisation and further topics21:04
b1airoMonitoring round-up21:04
b1airoReview gathered notes on wiki at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ScientificWGMonitoringAndTelemetry21:04
powerdevening / morning b1airo et al!21:04
b1airooneswig is an apology for today21:04
b1airohowdy powerd21:04
b1airook let's get into it then21:05
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martialb1airo: asked Lizhong to join as he is the coder of the Dmoni software so he will be able to comment/describe it if needed21:05
b1airo#topic GPUs and Virtualisation21:05
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powerdok so i've made a start at the GPUs investigation21:06
b1airothanks martial - i take it lizhong has already seen the etherpad from last couple of weeks?21:06
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powerdwe put a K80 and a K2 in to a system in our lab and have passthrough working now21:06
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powerdjust put a quick blog post together this afternoon - i'll update the wg wiki with the address21:06
b1airopowerd, did you end up starting an etherpad or anything yet?21:06
martialb1airo: yes, he contributed even21:06
b1airoi have just dug up some notes that we had and also some that Joe Topjian from Cybera passed on - i think we could make a pretty good start to some proper docs with these21:07
b1airog'day rbudden o/21:07
b1airopowerd, cool - i will take an action to start an etherpad and share21:08
powerdnot started an etherpad21:08
b1airo#action b1airo to start GPUs on OpenStack etherpad21:08
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b1airo(that should probably be "GPUs in OpenStack" - oh well)21:09
b1airoso powerd , did you have any problems with your setup?21:09
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b1airowe've been doing the GPU passthrough thing for a fairly long time in prod now - ~2.5 years21:10
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jmlowefrom what I remember of our chat the passthrough works great but there is no way currently to virtualize a pci switch?21:11
b1airoanyone else doing GPUs with OpenStack ?21:12
jprcan I ask a naive question.  when you use GPU within an OS instance, I assume you mean it's seen as a HW accelerator like on the compute side, or is this something about the instances graphics21:12
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jmloweI'm in the attempt to wrestle money free to purchase some gpus stage21:12
b1airojmlowe, well not strictly true - you can tell qemu to emulate a particular pci/e topology, but i haven't played with it much yet - lot's of manual XML-ing required21:12
jmloweI'm aiming for a 1U with 4x p100's21:13
b1airojpr, good question - we should aim to have docs answering this sort of thing up front21:13
powerdThe starting point of some instructions have been added to: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ScientificWGGPUs21:13
jmloweb1airo: ok, might be possible but certainly not baked in21:13
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powerdNo - no real problems setting up. But only starting to look at the perf now.21:14
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powerdWe'll have P100 in the lab by the end of the week so will be giving that a spin too21:14
jpr@powerd: thanks. that's clear21:14
b1airojmlowe, correct - and also, i'm not even sure whether the emulated pci topology is the problem for e.g. CUDA P2P21:14
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b1airoit could actually be PCIe ACS21:14
lizhongIn our team, we have someone did passthrough with OpenStack. The GPU appears in the VM, however it fails when you start a GPU program.21:15
b1airojpr, going back to your question - we use GPU passthrough both for GPU compute and to accelerate grpahics, e.g. with VirtualGL21:15
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b1airolizhong, we have seen those sort of problems plenty - the two primary issues that cause that appear to be either hypervisor support (i.e. not new enough qemu/kvm) or a driver in the host already bound to the device21:17
b1airodo you know what hypervisor version you were using?21:17
jpr@b1airo: ah, so do you use that under the hood of the instance to make it think it has GPU hardware  or within the context of the instance via the virtualgl support for graphics at the user level21:19
lizhongI don't know the exact version, but I'll let my colleague know.21:19
b1airopowerd, what hypervisor platform are you using?21:19
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leongfyi.. there is a talk in Barcelona about GPU on openstack.21:19
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leong#link Barcelona Presentation about GPU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9DmE_oUo5I21:20
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rbuddenFWIW, we have K80s and P100s currently that I may try and integrate in OpenStack at some point, but no immediate plans since they are under heavy us through interactive/batch/reservation jobs. If there’s some interesting research/tests to be done I could snag some time on the debug node21:20
b1airojpr, from inside the instance. particularly for HPC desktops, we have a cluster focusing on characterisation and visualisation, so accelerated rendering is important for many of those use-cases and with a virtual desktop on the cluster all data on the PFS is local21:20
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b1airorbudden, cool - we're about to get a rack full of P100 (PCIe) nodes, so far I haven't had any confirmation of anyone using them in pass-through, so crossing fingers at this point!21:22
powerdlizhong/b1ario - we saw that hang on workload with previous versions of OS/KVM ourselves also. Using centos 7 with liberty which works fine. Will be updating to Mitaka soon too and will report back.21:22
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b1airopowerd, i assume you are getting the virt stack from another repo though?21:23
b1airothe RHEV equivalent for centos maybe?21:23
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jmlowerbudden: b1airo: I'd love to hear how it goes with the p100's21:24
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b1airoleong, thanks for reminding me about that talk - if i recall correctly that was more about Intel's GPU virtualisation specifically?21:24
leongb1airo: yup21:24
jpr@b1airo: nice! thanks.21:25
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powerdvirt stack is either epel or standard centos core - i'd need to go double check (or RDO)21:25
b1airoleong, what is the target use-case for that? VM graphics acceleration?21:26
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leonggraphics virtualization...21:28
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b1airoi have seen some work on the libvirt-dev list to add support for virtualisation-able (i.e. device multiplexing) NVIDIA gear too21:28
leongcan be used for media transcoding or hpc use cases as well...21:28
b1airoDNNs? (sorry, just playing buzz-word bingo) ;-)21:29
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jmlowevirtualizing the gpu's, this is new to me, I also need the buzzwords to google21:30
b1airoso one problem that we have not yet solved with using host device based accelerators like GPUs in OpenStack is that it turns nodes into unicorns21:30
b1airoe.g. i've got a bunch of hypervisors with 2x K1 or 2x K2, which equates to 4 or 8 usable (passthrough-able) GPUs and thus 4-8 GPU-enabled cloud instances that can run on that node21:31
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leongthere is some related work in the dev community21:31
martialso if we can get the GPU passed through we can share it :) and then nvidia themselves created docker-nvidia to split the GPU into multiple sub systems https://github.com/NVIDIA/nvidia-docker21:31
leongthis one is about adding support to xenapi21:32
leong#link XenAPI/GPU: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/280099/21:32
b1airothat's all fine until we realise that those GPU instances are often only lightly utilised and we have a bunch of excess compute+memory capacity on the node21:33
b1airothe problem is, i have not yet figured out a way with nova-scheduler to always have room for GPU instances but also let regular CPU-only instances onto the node21:33
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b1airoi'm guessing there are not that many people who have felt that problem yet though21:36
b1airoor just don't care because they only have a few GPU nodes anyway21:36
powerdanother thing I plan to look into is bitfusion for virtualising the GPUs - could be useful for this VDI-like requirement21:37
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b1airobitfusion? don't think i've seen that21:37
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goldenfr_yea the 2nd one for us, only a few GPU nodes so its not a huge issue yet21:37
lizhongI didn't some benchmarking for GPU with  baremetal, KVM and Docker. Baremetal and docker get really better performance than KVM. If we have baremetal + GPU on OpenStak would be really nice.21:37
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priteaub1airo: you want more CPU overcommit on the GPU nodes, but only when there are GPU instances running?21:37
rbuddenb1airo: agreed. i believe we tend to ignore the CPUs on the GPU nodes21:37
lizhongSorry for type. I DID some benchmarking for GPU with  baremetal, KVM and Docker. Baremetal and docker get really better performance than KVM. If we have baremetal + GPU on OpenStak would be really nice.21:37
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rbuddenessentially we schedule no CPU jobs during GPU jobs. the GPU jobs get a portion of the CPU based on the number of GPUs assigned.21:38
powerdwww.bitfusion.io - not opensource but we'll give it a spin anyway.21:38
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b1airolooks suspiciously magic21:39
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b1airolizhong, that's interesting about your benchmarking - the papers i have read all indicate KVM with passthrough is or is almost BM performance21:39
jmlowelizhong: which version of qemu?21:39
b1airoof course, you need to have pinning, numa topology, etc. so perhaps that is difference you saw? we have seen very bad perf degradation for GPU heavy workloads on KVM without that tuning21:40
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lizhongb1airo, actually that's possible, if it's a tuned KVM21:42
b1airoalso, you can have baremetal GPU on OpenStack, you just need an Ironic cloud with GPUs in the nodes - i'm not sure what the hardware discovery and scheduling support is like though21:42
b1airopowerd, what perf tests are you planning?21:43
rbuddenb1airo: true, we have our GPUs controlled through Ironic, although we don’t do anything fancy on the scheduling side since SLURM handles that21:44
rbuddenwe do have a flavor for the GPUs so we can boot independant images if necessary21:44
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powerdSo we are planning on performing some of the host <-> gpu transfer speeds/latencies, linpack and a couple of others. anything to add?21:45
priteaub1airo: for baremetal you can add extra_specs to your flavor and use that for scheduling on a specific node type21:45
powerdwe'll add more GPUs and try node to node / GPUDirect (on a single host, then across fabric too)21:46
b1airopriteau, ah cool21:46
martialb1airo: 13 minutes to go21:47
b1airoand to answer your earlier question about mixing GPU-enabled and CPU-only instances on the same hypervisor, i just always want to be able to launch n GPU instances (where n is # of GPUs in the node), but otherwise i'm happy to fill available capacity21:48
b1airo(this is for general purpose cloud usage, not specifically HPC, so lots of idle dev instances and light desktop acceleration stuff)21:48
b1airopowerd, excellent - that's the problem i'm currently stuck on!21:49
martialwhat is the wiki page where people can add their notes on the GPU work ?21:49
b1airook, that was useful (for me anyway!). martial lizhong did you want to cover off anything about Dmoni21:49
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powerdgood - guess i'll be stuck there too so soon enough ;)21:49
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b1airomartial, i will draft an etherpad and share so that everyone can edit21:50
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martialI see a lot of what is needed to be known is already in https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ScientificWGMonitoringAndTelemetry21:50
b1airo#topic Monitoring round-up21:50
*** openstack changes topic to "Monitoring round-up (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:50
martiallizhong entered this content on the etherpad at the time21:50
priteaub1airo: it sounds a bit tricky. There may be a combination of nova-scheduler filters and their config to do it, but I don't know it!21:50
martialwe have started the discussion on adding the code to github21:51
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martialso that people can see how it works21:51
martialwe have also discussed the release of our prototype BDaaS VM that relies on DMoni21:51
b1airopriteau, i had some ideas i discussed with Joe Topjian (Cybera) a long while back - will add them to the etherpad21:52
b1airowould be good to get your thoughts21:52
martiallizhong is the main engineer on this tool, so I will let him comment21:52
b1airomartial, sounds good21:52
b1airoBDaaS = big data ?21:52
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martialb1airo: yes21:53
martialwe started the work to provide a mean to run a VM with builtin BD tools within our stack on a sequestered set of data21:54
lizhongDmoni is cluster monitoring tool targeting specific application running in a cluster21:54
lizhonglike Hadoop, Spark, etc.21:54
martialand we wanted to know the benchmarking of different algorithms under different paradigms at the "step" level21:55
jmlowefrom now on I will be pronouncing bdaas as badass21:55
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b1airojmlowe, i have a sticker on my laptop that says BADaaS, but it means something else - i don't even know what, it was just fun o_021:57
martialso Dmoni was created to give us additional hooks into the benchmarking layer21:57
lizhongDmoni differs from Ganglia and other cluseter monitoring tools which collect all system info21:57
b1airomartial, the BDaaS thing might be interesting in the context of the scientific datasets activity area21:57
martialb1airo: happy to discuss it obviously21:57
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b1airosorry - just been distracted by a security incident on my cloud21:59
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b1airosomeone spamming from it, the joys of having a research user-bae22:00
martialb1airo: uncool22:00
b1airotime to wrap it up22:00
martialyep 5pm22:00
jmloweglad to see it happens to everybody22:00
b1airothanks all!!22:00
martial(well here :) )22:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Dec 13 22:00:39 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-12-13-21.02.html22:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-12-13-21.02.txt22:00
martialthanks all22:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-12-13-21.02.log.html22:00
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rbuddensee ya’ll later!22:01
priteaubye all22:01
priteaub1airo: will you send the etherpad link by email?22:01
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b1airopriteau, yes22:02
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priteaub1airo: thanks!22:03
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