Tuesday, 2017-06-27

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hongbin#startmeeting zun03:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 27 03:00:02 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.03:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.03:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'zun'03:00
hongbin#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2017-06-27_0300_UTC Today's agenda03:00
hongbin#topic Roll Call03:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
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hongbinthanks for joining the meeting Namrata kevinz FengShengqin diga03:01
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hongbinpause a few more seconds for potential attendee03:02
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hongbinhi mkrai03:02
hongbinok, let's get started03:02
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hongbin#topic Announcements03:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)"03:02
hongbin1. Welcome Zhou Shunli to the core team03:02
hongbin#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-June/118883.html03:02
hongbinzsli_: hey03:03
hongbinzsli_: welcome to the core team03:03
zsli_Thanks all.03:03
mkraiZsli_ congratulations03:03
digazsli_: congrats!03:03
zsli_thanks all03:04
hongbinzsli_ did a lot of coding for the scheduler, it is good to have shunli in the core team03:04
hongbinagain, welcome03:04
hongbin2. New BPs03:04
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/auto-allocate-network Automatically allocate network if none available03:04
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/multiple-networks Support connect container with multiple network03:04
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/zun-api-as-container Running zun-api in a container managed by Zun03:04
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/support-pcipassthroughfilter Support PciPassthroughFilter in Zun Scheduler03:04
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/container-pci-device-modeling Build a data model for PCI_passthrough devices03:04
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/container-sr-iov-networking support SR-IOV networking03:04
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mkraiLooks like a long list03:05
hongbini wanted to mention those bps because i want to make sure if you think if it is a good idea03:05
digait seems lot things planned for this release03:05
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hongbinyes, there are several bps created last week03:05
hongbinit doesn't have to fit into this release03:06
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kevinzI see much of them are useful in NFV user cases03:06
kevinzvaluable BPs03:06
hongbini would leave it as a homework for everyone, so please feel free to comment on the bp's whiteboard if you have any comment03:06
digawho is working on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/container-sr-iov-networking ?03:06
hongbinopposing point of view are welcome03:07
hongbindiga: i believe lakerzhou is working on it03:07
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digawould to participate in it03:07
hongbindiga: i think you could ping him if you interest to work with him on this bp03:07
digahongbin: sure03:08
hongbinok, any other comment so far?03:08
digahongbin: about cinder integration, I have pushed latest patch by resolving all the comments & modification03:08
digahongbin: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/429943/ did you get a chance to look at that ?03:08
hongbindims: ack03:08
hongbindims: sorry, wrong person03:09
hongbindiga: ack03:09
hongbindiga: it doesn't pass the gate though03:09
digahongbin: yes, I need your help on that03:09
hongbindiga: make the patch pass the gate is your next step imo03:10
hongbindiga: ok, ping me offline for that03:10
digahongbin: okay03:10
digahongbin: sure03:10
hongbin#topic Review Action Items03:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: zun)"03:10
hongbin1. lakerzhou create a bp for supporting SR-IOV usage (COMPLETE)03:10
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/support-pcipassthroughfilter03:10
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/container-pci-device-modeling03:10
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/container-sr-iov-networking03:10
hongbinthis concludes the action items03:11
hongbinnext topic03:11
hongbin#topic Cinder integration03:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Cinder integration (Meeting topic: zun)"03:11
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/direct-cinder-integration Direct Cinder integration03:11
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/cinder-zun-integration Cinder integration via Fuxi03:11
hongbini think diga just gave an update for the fuxi part03:11
hongbinin addition, i am working on the cinder part, will continue to work on it this week03:12
hongbinany question on this topic?03:12
digawill go through the BP & spec03:12
hongbindiga: ack03:12
hongbin#topic Introduce container composition (kevinz)03:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Introduce container composition (kevinz) (Meeting topic: zun)"03:13
hongbinkevinz: ^^03:13
kevinzhi hongbin03:13
kevinzThix week I'm working about a WIP patch to support "zun capsule create"03:13
kevinzNow the Object and data models is finished, continue working on capsule create process03:14
kevinzI hope to give a WIP patch to gerrit this week03:14
hongbinkevinz: sounds like a good progress03:14
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kevinzhongbin: first I reuse zun-api and add a /capsules/ method03:15
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kevinzhongbin: Then after finish zun capsule create  ,will move to zun-capsule-api03:16
hongbinkevinz: got that, it sounds like a good approach for incremental improvement03:16
kevinzhongbin: yes :-)03:17
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hongbinfor others, a bit of the context, we are going to have a new api called zun-capsule-api, that run in parallel with zun-api03:18
zsli_why do we need separate api?03:18
hongbinthe discussion started from the last meeting, and we think this would be the less confusing option for end-user point of view03:18
hongbinzsli_: because the "capsule" api would be somehow duplicate with the "container" api03:19
mkraihongbin I have some questions related to two api servers03:19
hongbinmkrai: go ahead03:19
mkraiBoth would be running listening on different port. Right?03:19
hongbinmkrai: i think yes03:20
mkraiIf yes, user would have to know the ports where the apis are available03:20
hongbinmkrai: one option is to advertise it at the keystone service catalog03:21
mkraiOr is there other way so that user don't have to worry about which port they should send request?03:21
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mkraiHongbin: ack. Also what are the other advantages having two api servers?03:22
hongbinthe usual approach for service discovery is using keystone service catalog, inofrmation like ip address / port of each api service will be available there03:22
mkraihongbin: ack03:23
zsli_+1 for what other advantages03:23
FengShengqinhow to manage resource for two apis?03:23
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hongbinfor the question of advantages, i stated what i can think of, kevinz might want to add more03:24
hongbin1. both "container" and "capsule" can create container, users might find it confusing for which one to use03:25
digahongbin: mkrai : what use case we are going to achieve by introducing two apis services for zun ?03:25
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hongbinsome want to use "container", others want to use "capsule", both are doing the same thing (create containers). then it looks confused to have two in the same api03:25
kevinzdiga: we treat two apis just like "docker" and "swarm"03:26
hongbin2. it could make "capsule" funtionality as an optional deployment for operators (for those who just wanted "container", they don't have to deploy the capsule part, so save their operational efforts)03:26
hongbinkevinz: do you have more?03:27
digahongbin: okay03:27
zsli_seems 2 make sense03:27
hongbinzsli_: ack03:28
kevinzI have one, two apis will low the cost of capsule and container bottleneck in API server.03:28
mkraiSorry got dc03:29
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zsli_kevinz: i think low the load of api does not make sense.03:29
zsli_i think apis all run for many workers03:29
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kevinzzsli_: ack, it is just my un mature thought:-)03:31
hongbinok, any other comment for this topic?03:31
hongbin(good questions so far)03:32
zsli_still wondering if it's a good idea to have two separate apis03:32
digahongbin: just 1 question - how many operators use capsule for container deployment ?03:32
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hongbinzsli_: another option is to have them in the same process, but treat "capsule" as an api extension03:33
hongbinzsli_: then have a config to disable/enable the extension (like neutron)03:34
zsli_my concern is same as shengqin, there maybe resource sync problem for two apis.03:34
hongbinzsli_: both apis are stateless i assume?03:35
zsli_the advantage #2 also make sense, so it's a hard choice.03:35
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hongbinzsli_: ok, we could discuss it further offline if you have a chance03:36
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hongbindiga: for your question, i don't know yet03:36
mkraiPlease include me as well in discussion03:37
zsli_let me think it for sometime.03:37
hongbinmkrai: sure03:37
digahongbin: NP, will go through capsule docs03:37
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hongbinok, next topic03:37
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hongbini have the nfv topic in the agenda, but lakerzhou is not here so i propose to skip it03:38
hongbinthe next one is the retry filter03:38
hongbin#topic Add Retry filter (Shunli)03:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Add Retry filter (Shunli) (Meeting topic: zun)"03:38
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/476299/03:38
hongbinzsli_: you want to start to introduce this topic?03:39
zsli_the idea is simple like nova to introduce the retry to zun.03:39
zsli_when one compute host failed, then we can retry other host to boot the container.03:40
zsli_there are somes obstacles to implement this BP.03:41
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hongbinthe major concern i have is nova is going to get rid of the retry filter, i am not sure if it still make sense to implement it in zun03:41
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zsli_1, the nova plan to move the resource claim to scheduler, then retry will not be needed.03:42
mkraiHongbin is nova going to replace with placement api or something else?03:42
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zsli_2, zun do not have the separate scheduler and conductor service to reschedule the request.03:42
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hongbinmkrai: yes the nova-scheduler will be replaced by the placement api03:43
zsli_I'm also not sure if we can works well without retry filter?03:44
mkraiI think we can also reuse the placement api03:44
zsli_would like to know you guys opinion.03:44
mkraiAdding scheduler service would be extra overhead imo03:45
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zsli_mkrai: ack.03:46
zsli_without the scheduler service, all works well so far.03:46
hongbinzsli_: do you think if it is a good idea to move claim to scheduler as well (like what nova planned)03:46
zsli_seems no need to add scheduler service now.03:47
zsli_I need to investigate the nova implementation first.03:47
hongbinzsli_: if this is the goal, then the retry filter doesn't make sense imo03:47
mkraihongbin (IRC): agree03:48
hongbinzsli_: because we don't need to retry if we calimed on scheduler03:48
zsli_hongbin: ok.03:48
zsli_hongbin: i will abandon the patch.03:49
hongbinzsli_: ack, thanks for bringing up this topic, it is a good discussion03:49
zsli_and investigate the nova implementation, to see if we can implement like nova.03:49
hongbinsounds good03:49
hongbinany other comment on this topic?03:50
hongbinok, next one03:50
hongbin#topic Add Zun Resources to Heat03:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Add Zun Resources to Heat (Meeting topic: zun)"03:51
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/heat-plugin-zun03:51
hongbinNamrata: there?03:51
Namratayes hongbin03:51
Namratathanks for updating the patch03:51
hongbinNamrata: want to give a brief update for this topic?03:51
hongbinNamrata: np03:51
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/437810/03:51
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Namratawe have got +2 on the patch03:52
Namratawaiting for approval03:52
hongbinyes, 2 +2 so far03:52
Namratai guess will be merged this week03:53
zsli_thanks namrata for the grate work.03:53
Namratathanks hongbin03:53
Namratathanks zsli_03:53
zsli_I think this patch is great feature for zun.03:53
hongbinzsli_: +103:53
hongbinok, let's get into open discussion03:54
hongbinthanks Namrata for the great patch03:54
hongbin#topic Open Discussion03:54
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)"03:54
hongbinanyone has topic to bring up?03:54
zsli_hongbin: did your kuryr work with zun now?03:55
hongbinzsli_: i think yes03:55
zsli_my devstack broken for someday, seems kuryrlib-network bug.03:55
zsli_ping you offline about the problem03:56
hongbinmkrai: your env doesn't work either?03:56
mkraiIt worked on weekend03:56
hongbinmkrai: ack03:57
mkraiBut I was facing some issue with docker03:57
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hongbinmkrai: zsli_ ok, let's work those out at the zun channel03:57
hongbinall, thanks for joining the meeting03:58
hongbinhave a good day03:58
zsli_my problem is that seems kuryrlib-network add tag to networks failed in neturon.03:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"03:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 27 03:58:28 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)03:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-06-27-03.00.html03:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-06-27-03.00.txt03:58
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-06-27-03.00.log.html03:58
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samPhi all for Masakari04:00
samP#startmeeting masakari04:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 27 04:00:23 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is samP. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.04:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.04:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'masakari'04:00
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samPabhishekk: First of all, congratulations for become a glance core04:01
abhishekksamP: thank you04:01
sagaraabhishekk: congratulations!04:01
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abhishekksagara: thank you04:01
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samPOK, lets start04:02
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samP#topic Critical bugs04:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Critical bugs (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:02
samPAny bugs to discuss?04:02
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Dinesh_Bhor#link: https://bugs.launchpad.net/masakari/+bug/169099504:03
openstackLaunchpad bug 1690995 in masakari "If masakari recover "resized" instance that's state was "stopped" before resizing, it will be "active"." [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Dinesh Bhor (dinesh-bhor)04:03
Dinesh_BhorAccording to the bug report if the instance is in stopped state before resize then after recovery it should be stopped.04:04
samPIts looks like a nova bug to me..04:05
Dinesh_BhorIn this particular patch we have decided to stop the instance after recovery if it is in vm_state other than active and stopped : https://review.openstack.org/#/c/469029/04:06
tpatilsamP: After resized operation and before confirm_resize, if the compute host goes down, in that case after evacuation the vm_state should be stopped instead of active as per bug reporter04:07
samPDinesh_Bhor: that is one possible solution..04:07
samPtpatil: yes..it should be on "stopped"04:08
tpatilit should be stopped only in case the previous action on the instance is stopped before user calling resize operation04:09
samPuser stopped it for a reason, and make it active after evacuate could cause troubles.04:09
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samPtpatil: correct04:09
tpatilsamP:In that case, we will need to get instance_actions to take this decision04:09
rkmrHonjosamP: thank you for explaining. Your explanation is right.04:10
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tpatilIn future, if we decide to move the workflow to Mistral, we cannot call db_apis to get instance actions. Will need to add restFul apis to get instance actions04:10
samPtpatil: I thought in previous discussion we agreed to use instance_actions to refer its previous status04:10
samPtpatil: Ah...got it04:11
rkmrHonjotpatil: There is List Actions For Server API in nova.04:12
tpatilsamP: we have confirmed there is an existing nova api to get instance actions (instance_action_list)04:12
rkmrHonjo#link https://developer.openstack.org/api-ref/compute/#servers-actions-servers-os-instance-actions04:12
samPrkmrHonjo: I am looking at same04:13
tpatilrkmrHonjo: Yes, the api is present04:13
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samPtpatil: can we use this API to get previous actions?04:14
tpatilWe may need to add this action in mistral to get the instance_actions for an instance04:14
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Dinesh_BhorThis can be fixed in the same patch: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/469029/ I will fix it04:15
samPtpatil: so, we do not need to call db_apis, right?04:15
tpatilsamP: correct04:15
samPDinesh_Bhor: thank you..04:15
samPtpatil: OK, thanks04:16
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samPHowever, regarding these cases, my initial concern stays same..04:17
samPwhich is, VMs are turn on instantly before we turn them off..04:18
samPIMO, we have to fix these in nova04:19
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sagarasamP: I agree. We need some internal state change (or something locking) API in Nova.04:20
samPsuch as, in this case, evacuate does not turn the instance to active, if states before resize it stopped.04:20
tpatilIdeally, user will expect the vm_state to be resized instead of stopped or active.04:20
abhishekksamP: First we need to find out the reason why nova is not allowing evacuatiuon if instance is in reset state04:20
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abhishekksamP: we need to convince them, otherwise nova will never accept this fix if there is any strong reason04:21
samPabhishekk: agree..04:21
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samPcan some one please check why nova does not allow this?04:24
samPThen we could start to talk with nova, if we have strong reason.04:24
sagaraI will do that, but if I cannot, I will ask someone to help me04:25
samPsagara: sure..thank you..04:25
samPsagara: lets use ML with [masakari]04:25
tpatilsamP: so what we want to confirm with nova community is after evacuation the instance should be set to active or stopped state based on the previous action before resize04:26
rkmrHonjosagara: thank you.04:26
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sagara#action: sagara find out the reason why nova is not allowing evacuatiuon if instance is in reset state04:26
samPtpatil: yes04:26
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samPsagara: thank you.04:27
samPOK then, any other bugs04:27
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samPif not, lets move to pike work items04:28
samP#topic pike work items04:28
*** openstack changes topic to "pike work items (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:28
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tpatilsamP: the nova is not allowing resize vm state to be evacuated before the instance files resding on the source compute node will not be accessible during evacuation04:29
samPtpatil: but that does not true in shared storage case, right?04:30
tpatilbut in case of shared_storage, it should be allowed04:30
samPtpatil: in non shared storage cases, it does make sense04:31
tpatilsamP: Can nova community allow evacuation in resize vm_state based on the shared_storage/non-shared storage, is the main question04:31
tpatilsamP: Let's discuss this point on the nova ML04:32
samPtpatil: might hard to convince them, but lets give it a try04:32
samPtpatil: sure04:33
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tpatilsagara: Do you want to send this mail or should I request Abhishek to send it04:33
sagaratpatil: Please send a mail to Nova ML. thanks.04:34
tpatilsagara: OK04:35
sagaraI will look up the reason from source or commit log.04:35
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samPsagara: could you please share those in ML with [masakari], then abhishekk could use those info04:36
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sagarasamP: Yes, of course.04:36
samPsagara: thanks04:37
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samPOK, about pike work items... need to do lot of review work..04:38
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abhishekkFor recovery method customization, to add mistral driver in masakari we have analyzed some issues04:39
abhishekk1. need to add some actions in mistral, like filter vms on the basis of metadata, custom evacuation in which we need to find out aggregate host and add reserved_host to that aggregate, confirmation of evacuation, reset instances state to stop if instance is in state other than active or stop etc.04:39
tpatil#link Pike work items https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/masakari-pike-workitems04:39
abhishekk2. Mistral workflow executes in asynchronous way and to get the output we have to continuously hit the "mistral execution-get <execution-id>" API04:39
abhishekkproblem: If any workflow is executing and mistral-engine service goes down  suddenly during execution and workflow remains in "RUNNING" state until the mistral-engine comes up again and processes the pending workflow (there must be some periodic task which is picking up the pending executions).04:40
abhishekk3. Assuming we have a mistral driver then in case of recovery_method as a "reserved_host" we are going to loop through the reserved_hosts and will pass  the reserved_host one by one to workflow for execution. In this case if operator has configured "send e-mail" action after completion of workflow execution.04:41
abhishekk   For partial workflow execution operator will get multiple emails that the workflow is failed and it has evacuated some instances out of total.04:41
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samPabhishekk: That is lot of Mistral work there...04:41
abhishekkFor point 3 consider we have set reserved_host recovery action,04:42
abhishekksamP: yes04:42
samPIs it possible to ask Mistral team to help up with this..04:42
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tpatilsamP: Right now, mistral has only one action servers_evacuate which takes instance id for evacuation04:43
tpatilsamP: but we will need to add a major action in mistral to evacuate instances from a failed compute host04:43
samPtpatil: is that the evacuate work flow?04:43
abhishekksamP: for reference https://github.com/gryf/mistral-evacuate04:44
samPabhishekk: ah.. that is not a part of Mistral04:45
abhishekksamP: yes04:45
tpatilsamP: yes, but we will need to work with Mistral community to add the required actions in mistral04:45
samPwe could define our own workflows for evacuation or start, stop etc..04:46
abhishekksamP: we need to make major changes to this workflow to address our need, for example filter on the basis of metadata, add host to aggreagte, reset instance state to error etc04:46
samPabhishekk: yes04:46
tpatilApart from making all these changes, there are few challenges04:47
samPthe problem is, does Mistral engine support those requirements? <- this is the part we should discuss with Mistral Team04:48
tpatilProblem 1: As pointed above by Abhishek, if mistral_engine is down, the workflow will remain in running state forever04:48
tpatilProblem 204:48
tpatilFor reserved_host recovery_method, there is a possibility all instance might not be evacuated on a reserved_host04:49
tpatilso we will need to call workflow again from masakari passing the next reserved host04:49
tpatilin this particular case, if operator has configured email action, these email will be sent multiple times04:50
samPtpatil: IMHO, problem1 is very important and can not be done without Mistral support04:51
samPfor Problem2, Mistral work flow could return value with "not done yet, need another reserved host" and then masakari could call it again with another reserved host.04:53
tpatilsamP: Problem 1: Yes, mistral_api should check mistral_engine is up or down and according return status to the caller04:54
samPtpatil: agree04:54
tpatilsamP: problem 2: that's what is in my mind too, but then we may need to add some conditions to execute partial actions from the workflow on the mistral side for the subsequent evacuation of the remaining instances04:55
tpatilsamP: that's anyway ,we will need in masakari specs for discussion04:56
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tpatilsamP:  that's anyway ,we will need to add in masakari specs for discussion04:56
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samPtpatil: agree04:57
samPI think we should use ML for this.04:57
samP+ masakari spec04:57
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samPwe could get Mistral community feed back for this in ML04:58
tpatilsamP: First, we will upload a new PS in masakari-specs and then start this discussion on the ML if required04:58
samPtpatil: sure..04:58
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tpatilsamP: Thanks04:59
samPsounds good!04:59
samPwe only have 1min left04:59
samPplease continue the discussion on #openstack-masakari or ML with [masakari]04:59
samPthank you all....05:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"05:00
abhishekkthank you05:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 27 05:00:15 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)05:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-06-27-04.00.html05:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-06-27-04.00.txt05:00
rkmrHonjothank you05:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-06-27-04.00.log.html05:00
sagarathank you05:00
samPthank you all..05:00
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Qiminghi, xinhuili13:04
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xinhuiliHi Qiming13:07
xinhuiliso we have meeting?13:07
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Qimingxinhuili, I'm not sure if there are others joining13:08
xinhuiliI am tring to integrate Senlin into ONAP13:08
xinhuilias part of VMware VIM13:08
Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:08
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 27 13:08:44 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:08
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:08
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:08
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:08
Qimingwe can get this conversation recorded, :)13:09
QimingSenlin is part of VIM now?13:09
xinhuilinot yet13:09
QimingI'm happy to know any feedback13:09
xinhuiliI am exploring the chance13:09
Qimingwhere we need to improve, where we need to change13:09
xinhuilito expose recovery action to the higher level13:09
xinhuilicontrol flow13:09
Qimingthat makes sense13:10
xinhuiliI see13:10
xinhuiliyou always open to any13:10
Qimingseems to me the recover action of workflow is not fixed in senlin yet13:10
Qimingshould be request driven now13:10
xinhuiliI will check the bug13:10
xinhuiliIn ONAP13:11
Qimingthere are always a thousand new features to develop13:11
xinhuilithere are projects named as policy and DCAE data collection and analysis engine13:11
xinhuilithey handle the close loop13:11
QimingDCAE will collect VNF failure events?13:12
Qimingis it agent based or agentless?13:12
xinhuiliVES is an OPENFV project13:13
xinhuiliagent based13:13
Qimingsigh ...13:13
xinhuilireinvent the wheel?13:13
QimingI'm never a big fan of a huge collection of software13:13
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xinhuiliI see13:14
xinhuiliI am thinking to adopt senlin for the cluster.do functions13:14
xinhuilibut the loop is so big13:14
xinhuiliI do not know if we can implement it in this release13:15
Qimingone thing I recently read is about solution space and problem space13:15
xinhuilitell me more :)13:15
Qimingthere are always people trying to solve a problem in a solution space13:16
Qimingfew people are trying to find a solution from a problem space13:16
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Qimingcan you feel the difference?13:17
xinhuilihammer nail13:18
Qimingthe former group of people favor integrating a lot of software components to achieve a goal13:19
Qimingthe latter group of people focus more on what is good enough to solve the problem13:19
Qiminganother survey I read is about why people are pursuing a phd degree13:21
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xinhuilitop three reasons?13:22
QimingI was shocked by the result: only 5% of the candidates are really interested in academic research13:22
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xinhuiliat least you are13:22
xinhuiliso you are shocked13:22
QimingI'm trying to comparing that to a open-source community, :)13:22
xinhuiliwhat do the people want13:23
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Qiminghow many people are really interested in building a good opensource software13:24
Qimingyou can do an analysis in the ONAP community as well, :)13:24
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xinhuiliI saw xuefeng13:25
Qiminghi, XueFengLiu13:26
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Qimingthanks for joining13:26
Qimingany news from your side?13:26
XueFengLiurdo is in process by a new colleague13:28
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xinhuilisorry for my long lose13:28
rbowenRPM Distribution of OpenStack - http://rdoproject.org/13:28
XueFengLiuAnd two person research  TIGK13:28
XueFengLiufor monitoring13:29
Qiminggetting senlin released under RDO13:29
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XueFengLiuyes, we need rpm for senlin13:30
XueFengLiua framework for monitoring13:30
Qimingnever heard of that, an opensource solution?13:32
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XueFengLiuhere is the install for them13:33
XueFengLiuand for senlin and zaqar13:34
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Qimingalright, G-Grafana, I-Influx, K-Kapacitor ... what is T?13:36
Qiminggot it13:36
XueFengLiunow ,we only research and comparison13:37
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QimingI was chatting with xinhui about this13:37
XueFengLiuand xinhui's video, I have watched13:37
QimingIf I can make a suggestion13:37
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QimingI would start from the requirements at hand, instead of from the software available13:38
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QimingI have recently shared a paste on wechat, about "not everyone should be a google"13:38
Qiminghope that article can be of help13:39
XueFengLiuso it means?13:40
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Qimingit is an article about the enthusiasm about map-reduce and hadoop during the past 10 years13:41
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Qimingmore and more people found that hadoop is not suitable for their usage scenario13:41
Qimingit is not hadoop's fault, it is the user's fault13:42
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ruijiejthat costs too much:)13:42
Qimingthousands of papers got published, anyway13:43
Qimingyou will come up with a good solution if your focus is on the problem you want to solve13:44
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XueFengLiuthat's right:)13:44
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Qiminghowever, if you focus too much on how famous, how hot a software is today, ...13:44
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Qiminghope I'm not worrying too much, :)13:45
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Qimingruijiej, any update from your side?13:46
XueFengLiuyes, got it13:46
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Qimingalright, ruijiej is snoring ...13:47
XueFengLiuQiming, research these is not by me. it's a team:) And I am continue thing about how to use senlin in the framework.13:48
ruijiejsorry, I am on a trip:)13:48
Qimingokay, feel free to propose any improvements13:49
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Qiminganything else you want to talk about before we release the channel?13:52
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XueFengLiufor network can senlin do more things?13:52
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Qiminge.g. building pools for network resources13:53
Qiminge.g. simplifying the network configuration of a cluster13:53
XueFengLiuthen we can control this resources13:53
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XueFengLiuso we can have more discuss for this13:54
Qimingthe goal is not to control them, the goal, in my opinion, is to make users life easier13:54
Qimingbetter, ease of use abstraction for users13:55
ruijiejWith other platform or component is also interested?13:55
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Qimingso they can focus on only things they need to change13:55
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Qimingyup, ruijiej13:56
XueFengLiuso we can abstraction and intergate with skydive13:56
Qimingif you can brige senlin to libcloud, for example, :)13:56
ruijiejOkay Qiming, cause we are using something to control k8s"s compute node, hope Senlin can do that directly13:57
QimingI see13:57
Qimingshouldn't be difficult13:57
QimingI'm learning myself k8s recently13:58
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Qimingk8s has python client as well13:58
XueFengLiuQiming, we need more discuss13:58
ruijiejThats interesting... I am looking at it's network arch.13:58
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Qimingthen cluster autoscaler won't be a thing you can only do on google compute cloud13:59
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Qimingyou can do that on openstack, :)13:59
ruijiejYes XueFengLiu13:59
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Qimingtime's up, buddy13:59
Qimingswitch to #senlin pls13:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 27 13:59:31 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2017/senlin.2017-06-27-13.08.html13:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2017/senlin.2017-06-27-13.08.txt13:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2017/senlin.2017-06-27-13.08.log.html13:59
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igordcardhi davidsha14:01
igordcardanyone else for ccf?14:02
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igordcard#startmeeting network_common_flow_classifier14:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 27 14:02:54 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is igordcard. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)"14:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'network_common_flow_classifier'14:02
igordcardhi all14:03
igordcardhi reedip_, davidsha14:03
igordcardagenda: Status update14:03
igordcardagenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Neutron/CommonClassificationFramework#Discussion_Topic_27_June_201714:03
igordcard#topic Status update14:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Status update (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)"14:03
igordcardspec has been merged14:04
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igordcardI haven't "wiped" the neutron-classifier repo yet14:04
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igordcardregarding the code, was chatting to davidsha, we will have it before pike-3 for review14:12
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igordcardthat's all about updates14:14
igordcard#topic Open discussion14:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)"14:14
igordcardanything else?14:15
davidshaI'm good.14:15
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igordcardI believe bcafarel can't attend this week, so no coffee today14:15
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davidshareedip_ , any opens?14:16
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reedip_davidsha : none from my side as of now14:16
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igordcardalright reedip_ , I might sneak in to your fwaas meeting and announce that the spec has been merged14:17
igordcardbye all14:17
reedip_yeah , good :)14:17
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"14:18
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 27 14:18:19 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:18
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2017/network_common_flow_classifier.2017-06-27-14.02.html14:18
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2017/network_common_flow_classifier.2017-06-27-14.02.txt14:18
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2017/network_common_flow_classifier.2017-06-27-14.02.log.html14:18
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lbragstad#startmeeting keystone18:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 27 18:00:05 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is lbragstad. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
lbragstadping ayoung, breton, cmurphy, dstanek, edmondsw, gagehugo, henrynash, hrybacki, knikolla, lamt, lbragstad, lwanderley, notmorgan, rderose, rodrigods, samueldmq, spilla, aselius18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:00
samueldmqhi all18:00
lbragstad#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:01
lbragstadagenda ^18:01
lbragstadwe have quite a bit to get through this week18:01
lbragstad#topic announcements18:01
*** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
lbragstad#info no meeting next week in observation of the 4th of July18:01
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lbragstadwe'll resume our normal meetings on the 11th18:02
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lbragstad#info office hours have been moved from Friday to Tuesday 19:00 - 22:00 UTC18:02
lbragstad#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-June/118921.html18:02
lbragstadthis announcement on the mailing list can be found ^18:03
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lbragstadthe meeting time will be right after this meeting, which works out nicely18:03
lbragstadso - after this meeting, anyone interested in office hours or bug work, we can meeting in #openstack-keystone18:03
lbragstadI was tinkering with the Meeting Bot this week and I think we will try to use that to log the whole session18:04
lbragstadwe can leverage the meeting bot tooling to track things and so on18:04
lbragstadI'll also try and send weekly updates after each office hour session18:04
lbragstadideally shooting for something similar to what cdent does18:04
lbragstadfor the tc related things18:05
lbragstad#info we're two months away from release18:05
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lbragstad#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/pike18:05
lbragstadthose are the specs that we're targetting for pike18:05
lbragstadwe have quite a bit of work ahead of us for pike yet18:06
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gagehugoo/ im down for office ours18:06
lbragstadgagehugo: good deal18:06
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gagehugoI need to make a calender event for this18:06
hrybackilbragstad: how accurate is the delivery column?18:06
hrybackigagehugo: I made one, I can add you if you'd like18:07
hrybackipreferred email?18:07
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lbragstadhrybacki: that's a good question, i don't think it's accurate for the deprecated-as-of-pike or removed-as-of-pike specs18:07
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gagehugosame one on the etherpad for office hours is fine18:08
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lbragstadi need to update those since i kinda started working on that this week18:08
raildoa little late o/18:08
hrybackilbragstad: ack, are any of those 'red'?18:08
lbragstadsupport for federated attributes could use a follow up/assessment18:08
lbragstadpolicy-docs is *almost* done, we merged a couple more patches for that recently18:09
* hrybacki nods18:09
knikollaFor federated-attr as far as i remember, most patches were in good shape, but needs a final push.18:09
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lbragstadi remember there being a lot of discussion about the approach towards the end there18:10
lbragstadi need to follow back up on that discussion18:10
rderoselbragstad: I can probably take that over (federated attributes)18:10
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lbragstadrderose: awesome - that'd be great18:10
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lbragstadrderose: i thought dstanek had several comments/concerns with it, but i need to go dig those up18:11
lbragstador follow up with him18:11
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rderoselbragstad: cool18:11
lbragstadjust so they don't get lost18:11
lbragstad#action rderose to assess and pick up the remaining federated attributes work18:12
lbragstad#action lbragstad to go through the deprecated-as-of-pike and removed-as-of-pike specs18:12
lbragstad#topic documentation migration18:12
*** openstack changes topic to "documentation migration (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:12
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lbragstadsjain: samueldmq have been making some great progress on this front18:12
lbragstadwe've migrated the installation guide and the admin guide18:12
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/469515/18:13
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/474545/18:13
lbragstadwe have a little work left to do for the configuration guide18:13
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/474543/18:13
lbragstadfor ^ we mainly want to make sure we're not maintaining a copy/pasted version of our configuration file18:13
samueldmqlbragstad and sjain have been doing all the awesome work, I am just reviewing :)18:14
lbragstadinstead - dhellmann had a suggestion to use oslo.config to generate the configuration reference bits for us18:14
lbragstadwe essentially just need to hook that up, and we're good to go18:14
lbragstadthe remaining documentation work is mostly shuffling bits around to the proper places and removing duplicate information between the guides (which there is a lot of)18:15
samueldmqlbragstad: ++18:15
lbragstadif anyone is interested in helping out there, let me know or feel free to start consolidating information from the Operator guide into the admin guide18:15
dhellmannplease do also update the structure for all of the other repos, so that the new templated docs.o.o site will link to the right place18:15
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samueldmqthanks dhellmann, we need to make sure that too18:16
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lbragstaddhellmann: you mean the ones documented in the etherpad18:16
samueldmqaccording to the cp spec, correct?18:16
lbragstad#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/doc-migration-tracking18:16
dhellmannlbragstad : yes (assuming I built the full list :-)18:16
dhellmannsamueldmq : yes18:16
samueldmqdhellmann: nice, thanks18:16
lbragstadi see the keystone specific repos at line 205 and they look correct18:17
lbragstadalso at line 467 for the independent libraries18:17
lbragstadso - fwiw, we've been focused on the keystone specific docs but we'll need to make sure we do the same for all the repos listed in that etherpad18:17
samueldmqlbragstad: all the repos under the umbrella of keystone team, correct?18:18
lbragstadsamueldmq: yes18:18
samueldmqkeystoneauth, python-keystoneclient, and so on18:18
lbragstadeven openstack/ldappool18:18
lbragstadand openstack/python-keystoneclient-kerberos18:18
samueldmqkk I may get one of those and do that18:18
samueldmqwhile you and sjain fight keystone itself18:19
lbragstadi don't think migrating will be much of a task if any, most of those projects are pretty light when it comes to documentation18:19
samueldmqah, I didn't know keystoneclient-kerberos was a thing yet :(18:19
lbragstadit's more of less making sure we do it and it's consistent with the spec18:19
lbragstadthe majority of the documentation migration work is certainly going to be in keystone18:20
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lbragstadwhich leads nicely into our next topic18:20
lbragstad#topic PKI certificate cruft18:20
*** openstack changes topic to "PKI certificate cruft (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:20
lbragstadafter we merged the admin-guide into keystone, i noticied we have *tons* of duplicate documentation between the admin-guide and the operator guide18:21
lbragstad#link https://docs.openstack.org/developer/keystone/18:21
lbragstadone of the things that was documented heavily was the use of certificates for PKI18:22
lbragstad(which isn't supported by keystone anymore)18:22
lbragstadas a result, we have a bunch of configuration options in our config file for certificates18:22
lbragstadsince keystone doesn't support PKI anymore18:22
lbragstadand the /OS-PKI/ API effectively returns an empty list18:23
lbragstadI'm wondering if we can remove that documentation and complexity from our configuration18:23
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/476688/118:23
lbragstadI've proposed it here ^18:23
samueldmqlbragstad: yes from me18:23
samueldmqand we just document those APIs in the api-ref, saying they return empty lists (or whatever) since it's not supported anymore18:23
lbragstadi think if we can assess the usage of those options in keystone and come to the conclusion that they are not needed or used, then we should remove them18:24
hrybacki+1 for trimming the fat18:24
lbragstadis anyone interested in picking apart where those options are used?18:25
lbragstadwithin keystone that is?18:25
hrybackiNo spare cycles right now on my end =/18:25
lbragstadno worries - i have to ask :)18:25
sjainI can help but I would need to read a bit about this before18:26
lbragstadsjain: that'd be great18:26
lbragstadsjain: that makes sense18:26
lbragstadsjain: we can push it to the back burner too, with respect to the rest of the documentation work18:27
sjaincurrently I'm not very familiar with this but can surely spend some time on this18:27
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lbragstadsjain: cool - let me know if/when you need help18:27
lbragstadand we can work through it18:27
sjainsure :)18:27
samueldmqthat's awesome, thanks for volunteering sjain18:27
sjainno problem :)18:28
lbragstad#action lbragstad and sjain to go through the certification configuration options and assess them18:28
lbragstadsjain: do you have anything else docs-wise you'd like to share?18:28
sjainno not much, the openstack manuals you have already discussed18:29
sjainI was also working on improving the devdocs18:29
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lbragstadsjain: yeah - that's another piece that needs to get reworked18:29
sjainI am getting reviews on those so it would be fine18:30
lbragstadsjain: i'll make a note to review those soon18:30
sjainsure, thanks18:30
lbragstadok - moving on18:30
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lbragstad#topic Cleaning up deprecated functionality/removals of Pike18:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Cleaning up deprecated functionality/removals of Pike (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:30
lbragstadi was going through and double checking that we'd either deprecated or removed everything we needed to for Pike18:31
lbragstadand stumbled across a few remaining bits18:31
hrybackilbragstad: dumb question -- how do you do that?18:31
lbragstadhrybacki: we use a library18:31
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lbragstadhrybacki: https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/9070172084fe31c9564de38886662fb198de68cb/keystone/cmd/cli.py#L2618:32
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/9070172084fe31c9564de38886662fb198de68cb/keystone/cmd/cli.py#L2618:32
lbragstadwhich allows us to do stuff like this18:32
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/9070172084fe31c9564de38886662fb198de68cb/keystone/cmd/cli.py#L1097-L110118:32
lbragstadso - wherever that library is used, a message will be logged saying that specific thing is going away in a certain timeframe18:32
lbragstadand possible what you should use instead18:33
samueldmqlbragstad: I have something to add to that list18:33
samueldmq#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/af4e98c770d771144463e6dd49cb4b559d48c403/keystone/auth/core.py#L38-L5918:33
lbragstadsamueldmq: ah - i saw that too18:33
lbragstadi have that on line 41 in our agenda :)18:33
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lbragstadhrybacki: i make a point every release to grep through the code base for the library and see what we're planning on removing18:35
* hrybacki nods18:35
lbragstadthe ones listed in the agenda are the remaining bits we said we are going to remove in pike but haven't yet18:35
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knikollaI must have missed a few on my flight back from atlanta18:35
lbragstadi think once all of those are addressed, we'll be done with the removed-as-of-pike blueprint18:35
lbragstadthe first one on the list is the usage of domain_config_upload18:36
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/9070172084fe31c9564de38886662fb198de68cb/keystone/cmd/cli.py#L1097-L110118:36
lbragstadi can propose a patch to remove that one18:36
lbragstad#action lbragstad to remove domain_config_upload option18:36
lbragstadfwiw - we'll need to include release notes for each of these i think18:36
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/9070172084fe31c9564de38886662fb198de68cb/keystone/auth/core.py#L52-L5718:37
knikollaThere's a removed as of pike release note18:37
bknudsonwas support for domain config files dropped?18:37
knikollaAdd them there18:37
lbragstadbknudson: no, just the ability to upload a domain config using keystone-manage18:37
lbragstadknikolla: ++18:37
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lbragstadbknudson: the functionality is still supported via the API18:37
bknudsonseems strange to remove the upload function if somebody might want to do it18:38
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/commit/a5c5f5bce812fad3c6c88a23203bd6c00451e7b318:38
lbragstadlooks like topol did it when the domain configuration api became stable18:38
lbragstadi can send a note to the operator list18:40
bknudsonmight at least want to put a warning if using domain config files that says we don't provide a way to switch from files to database18:40
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lbragstad#action lbragstad to send a note to the operator list about removing domain config upload functionality18:40
lbragstadworst case we bump it and keep it deprecated18:41
bknudsonbut I'd prefer getting rid of files before removing the utility18:41
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lbragstadbknudson: oh - like removing support for domain config files instead?18:41
lbragstadah - yeah... i agree18:41
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bknudsonI assume that was the plan was to stop supporting files at some point?18:42
lbragstadbknudson: i think so - by the sounds of the commit message topol wrote18:42
lbragstadit sounds like the idea was to at least provide some way to migrate domain configs into the database18:42
lbragstadso maybe we mark domain config file support as deprecated then18:43
lbragstadpending operator feedback18:43
lbragstadand then plan to remove domain config upload and domain config file support at the same time?18:44
lbragstadi can send something to the mailing list18:45
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/9070172084fe31c9564de38886662fb198de68cb/keystone/auth/core.py#L52-L5718:45
lbragstadsamueldmq: ^18:45
samueldmqso, the text there is pretty self-explanatory18:46
lbragstadyeah - we were also going to remove it almost a year ago18:46
samueldmqI am working on a patch for it right now18:46
samueldmqwill submit in a bit, so this will be one thing less to keep our eyes on18:47
lbragstadsamueldmq: awesome18:47
lbragstad#action samueldmq to propose patch for removing direct imports of auth plugins18:47
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/9070172084fe31c9564de38886662fb198de68cb/keystone/conf/eventlet_server.py18:47
lbragstadeventlet support has been deprecated *forever*18:47
lbragstadwell - since Kilo, but still18:47
samueldmqyeah, I dont think people use it still18:48
samueldmqor at least shoudnt18:48
lbragstadbut we never put a remove_in date on eventlet support18:48
* lbragstad feels like morgan has context on this topic18:48
samueldmqlbragstad: we might want to check with morgan?18:48
bknudsonI think the problem was that some of these options may still possibly be used18:48
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samueldmqlbragstad: ++18:48
bknudsonfor example, one could put %(public_bind_host)s in their config file18:49
bknudsonor in the service catalog18:49
lbragstadbknudson: ah18:49
bknudsonmaybe that's deprecated and can be removed, too?18:50
lbragstadbknudson: that's a good question18:50
lbragstadi'd be nice to remove it, but the fact there isn't a removal date on the deprecation tells me its there for backwards compat of some kind18:50
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lbragstadi can follow up here18:51
lbragstadwe updated the hash algorithm to be more secure18:52
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/9070172084fe31c9564de38886662fb198de68cb/keystone/conf/identity.py#L17018:52
lbragstadthis one is minor, i was just going to propose a formal removal of that instead of having it in a comment18:53
* lbragstad isn't really sure why he put this one on the agenda18:53
lbragstadSecure SSL proxy18:53
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/9070172084fe31c9564de38886662fb198de68cb/keystone/conf/default.py#L162-L17118:53
lbragstadthis one has been deprecate for about a year18:53
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lbragstadany objections to removing this and if so when should we do it?18:54
lbragstadwe should have a date on that if possible to let operators know when it's going away18:54
* hrybacki doesn't have enough historical context to answer 18:55
lbragstadi'll come up with a removal proposal and we'll do it in another release18:56
lbragstad#action lbragstad to propose removal date for secure ssl proxy configuration18:56
lbragstadand i'm done18:56
lbragstad#topic open discussion18:56
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:56
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knikolla\o/ remove everything!18:57
hrybackiOffice hours are a go! woot18:57
lbragstadsweet - break for a few minutes and then start office hours in #openstack-keystone18:57
knikollaI still have a total negative line count on my keystone contribs, haha18:57
hrybackiknikolla: you are living the dream18:57
lbragstadknikolla: that's a good thing18:57
lbragstadreminds me of the oslo.incubator days18:58
* hrybacki fetches mas cafe18:58
lbragstadagreed - going to make some coffee quick and we'll get start with office hours18:58
lbragstadthanks for the great meeting!18:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 27 18:58:47 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2017/keystone.2017-06-27-18.00.html18:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2017/keystone.2017-06-27-18.00.txt18:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2017/keystone.2017-06-27-18.00.log.html18:58
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fungiinfra team, um... meet?19:00
fungithis week we have action items assigned to and topics proposed by ianw and fungi19:00
* jeblair meets19:00
* jeblair eats19:00
* jeblair meats?19:00
fungieats meats?19:00
fungiclarkb: are you also going to want to talk about the gerrit upgrade today?19:02
fungi#startmeeting infra19:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 27 19:03:46 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:03
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:03
fungi#topic Announcements19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:04
fungi#info Don't forget to register for the PTG if you're planning to attend!19:04
fungi#link https://www.openstack.org/ptg/ PTG September 11-15 in Denver, CO, USA19:04
fungias always, feel free to hit me up with announcements you want included in future meetings19:04
fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:04
fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2017/infra.2017-06-20-19.03.html Minutes from last meeting19:04
fungi#action ianw abandon pholio spec and shut down pholio.openstack.org server19:04
ianwoh, forgot to abandon the spec19:04
ianw#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/477386/19:04
ianwreview to remove it from system-config19:04
fungiand no worries. i just noticed one we agreed to move out of the priority efforts list to implemented that i forgot to clean up, so will have a patch up for that forthwith as well19:05
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fungi#topic Specs approval19:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
fungi#info APPROVED "PTG Bot" spec19:05
fungi#link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/ptgbot.html "PTG Bot" spec19:06
fungi#info APPROVED "Provide a translation check site for translators" spec19:06
fungi#link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/translation_check_site.html "Provide a translation check site for translators" spec19:06
fungi#topic Priority Efforts - Gerrit 2.13 Upgrade: status update (clarkb)19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts - Gerrit 2.13 Upgrade: status update (clarkb) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:06
fungii know we discussed last week that we'd follow up this week19:07
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clarkbso it turns out that 2.13 is a really weird release19:07
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fungiweird even as gerrit releases go19:08
clarkband if you upgrade to 2.13 < 2.13.8 you have to do db migrations by hand when you go to 2.13.8 (and presumably 2.14)19:08
clarkbso we reverted teh 2.13.7 upgrade and are working on a plan to go staright to 2.13.819:08
fungimigrations... between different db backends too19:09
clarkbI have changes up under the gerrit-upgrade topic to get artifacts built19:09
clarkbso reviews on thiose would be great19:09
clarkbonce we have artifacts I just need to update our process doc on etherpad and we can give it another go19:09
clarkbmaybe tomorrow even19:10
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/is:open+topic:gerrit-upgrade19:10
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clarkbalso the new db can't have the same name as the old db or you lose your old db19:11
clarkbthats a nice feature that only just got documented in tip of the 2.13 branch19:11
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clarkbso thats teh basic update. THings to review to make wars and plugin jars so that we can tr 2.13.819:13
fungi"new" being the "accountPatchReview" database?19:13
fungithat's what i thought, just clarifying for those coming up to speed ;)19:14
fungiokay, so you'll give it a shot on review-dev possibly as early as tomorrow?19:15
clarkbyes if we can get those changes merged today then plugins will be built overnight allowing us to attempt upgrade tomorrow19:15
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clarkbI'd like another infra-root around just to bounce ideas off of especially considering the way the last one went19:15
clarkbfungi: are you willing/able to do that again?19:15
fungiyou can count me in for that19:15
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mordredyah - same here19:16
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fungiworth noting, if we switch to building off the upstream stable branch tips rather than point release tags, we will be making non-fast-forward changes to our local branches (possibly orphaning earlier changes that add our local .gitreview et cetera) when we update that branch19:16
jeblairconsider me on standby for this19:17
clarkbsounds good, I can likely get going as early as 9am pdt tomorrow19:17
jeblairfungi: we modify so littl now, i'm not too worried about changes on the branches19:18
fungijeblair: that was my feeling on it as well, just wanted to make sure that (slight) change in workflow was known19:18
clarkbya its mostly just the submodule change to make builds work19:19
fungianything else we should know about at this stage?19:19
clarkbthat is all I have19:19
clarkbunless we want to talk about how much more fun 2.14 will be :)19:19
fungii know you had to abort before viability last week, so not much was learned about anything besides the upgrade process itself19:19
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fungidiscussing 2.14 upgrades at this stage is probably premature19:20
fungiunless we get far enough with 2.13 to decide that we really should be running 2.14 because of some currently unknown problem19:20
clarkbya I don't think we are anywhere near that point19:21
fungithanks clarkb! and thanks mordred and jeblair for volunteering to help put out fires if we cause any19:21
fungi#topic Infra-cloud's future and call for volunteers (fungi)19:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Infra-cloud's future and call for volunteers (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:22
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fungii've been trying to take point on the private three-way discussions with hpe and osu on the possibility of relocating the infra-cloud hardware19:23
fungibut things have gotten more complicated19:23
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fungiparticularly because, over the course of one or more of the previous data center moves, the server mounting rails and top of rack switches we originally had were "lost"19:24
fungiand it's starting to look like if we want to continue running infra-cloud, we'll need to buy some19:24
fungii don't personally have the bandwidth to research, spec and price out the necessary additional gear19:25
fungiso i'm looking for volunteers to pick up this project19:25
clarkbfungi: and that is because osuosl isn't going to have switches we can plug into (I'm guessing thats a capacity problem?) and rails are always hard tocome by seems like?19:25
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fungiyeah, pretty much19:26
clarkbfungi: is hpe wanting to turn them off in the current shelf/sit on floor/daisy chained to router setup?19:26
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jeblairthey're... what, stacked on top of each other now?19:26
clarkbjeblair: I'm assuming based on lack of rails19:26
fungiwe'll need fairly high-speed interconnections between the servers so basic connectivity is going to be insufficient19:26
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fungijeblair: correct, they are stacked directly on one-another19:27
fungiaccording to what we've been told19:27
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fungii can still continue acting as go-between on the foundation budget/funding/contracts part19:28
ianwi can try reaching out to some people internally at RH who might have recent experience with this19:28
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fungibut i'm wondering whether it makes sense to try to move forward with the current hardware if we're going to need a significant capital investment in rails and switch gear19:29
ianwpersonally i know not very much about rack/rail solutions, but if we can find someone from RDO cloud ....19:29
jeblairfungi: do we have a hardware manifest somewhere?19:30
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fungii haven't seen one that i can recall. i believe most of the hardware model info we have was worked out by rcarrillocruz, yolanda or cmurphy remotely19:31
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jeblairhttps://docs.openstack.org/infra/system-config/infra-cloud.html  does not look up to date....19:32
jeblairthere may be some stuff in bifrost files, but i don't know if we would have (accurate?) chassis information if all of that was collected remotely19:32
fungii can ask the data center manager who's been e-mailing our contact at osu if they can do an audit of the hardware that's in place19:32
clarkbwe can gather that via ilo at least19:33
clarkbit may be slow but should work19:33
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fungiand possibly incomplete for any where the ilo fails to respond19:33
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fungibut better than nothing19:33
jeblairi reckon that's step one if we want to find rails19:34
jeblairpersonally, i'd ask the dc manager.  i'd prefer that to trusting ilo.19:35
fungiit'll also only take me a few minutes to ask them to confirm one last time that there really are no mounting rails attached to the servers (maybe we've misinterpreted what they were saying about that) and get us a count of switchports/speeds19:35
jeblair(or, you know, both.  trust but verify.  :)19:35
fungiafter that, i can start a thread on the infra ml about this i guess and see if we get any good suggestions/offers19:36
fungi#action fungi start a ml thread about the infra-cloud rails and switching situation19:37
fungiwe can continue there, hopefully reaching a wider audience19:37
jeblairfungi: can you go ahead and ask the dc op too?19:37
fungijeblair: yeah, i figured i was going to do that first19:38
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fungi#action fungi get details on current server models, presence of rails and switchport counts for infra-cloud19:38
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fungi#topic Should we skip our next meeting? (fungi)19:39
*** openstack changes topic to "Should we skip our next meeting? (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:39
clarkbI will not be here.19:39
fungiin reading yesterday's zuul meeting minutes to make sure i hadn't missed anything important while i was out, i was reminded that it will be a holiday in the usa19:39
fungiso if people want an infra meeting next week, we'll need a volunteer chair19:40
fungibecause my wife will probably hound me to stay off the computer19:40
jeblair(i'm really proud that i actually remembered to bring that up in meeting for once)19:40
fungi(and just look at the example it set!)19:41
ianwi could ... but i think it's not worth it19:41
fungithanks ianw. not hearing any objections, let's go ahead and cancel next week19:41
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fungi#agreed The Infra team meeting for July 4 will be skipped due to a major holiday for many attendees; next official meeting will take place on Tuesday, July 11.19:42
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fungi#topic Open discussion19:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:43
clarkbI'm fairly confident dns over ipv4 was the vast majority of our dns problems19:43
clarkbthe leftovers appear related to how various jobs deploy software19:44
clarkbeg docker using in osic anyways19:44
fungii spotted this on the general ml but haven't had time to look into it:19:45
ianw++ my testing has stabilised greatly19:45
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack/2017-June/045095.html git-review removing /gerrit19:45
fungiwould be really awesome if someone has time to jump in on that since it's another case of our tools being used outside the openstack community19:45
ianw#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/477736/19:45
cmurphynew batch of beaker fixes here, mordred already +d' all of them https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:%22%255Eopenstack-infra.*%2524%22+topic:fix-beaker19:45
ianwthere's been some stretch talk ... patches for nodes etc.  does anyone mind if i do 477736 and i imagine we need a manual run to get the first sync down19:46
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fungiianw: seems fine to me19:46
clarkbianw: ++ also check volume quota/size/space first19:46
ianwwill do19:47
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fungithanks for adding all those cmurphy19:48
fungii also approved the change to make the beaker jobs voting a few hours ago19:48
clarkbianw: I think someone said we might need to add the stretch release gpg key too19:48
cmurphyfungi: awesome19:48
fungiclarkb: yes, the key should be added but it's not actually in use yet afaik19:49
fungithe "stretch release key" is so named because it may start being used following the stretch release19:49
fungi(sort of backward from how we name our signing keys)19:49
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fungijhesketh: not sure if you're awake yet, but are you still free to process the requested stable/mitaka eol? that would take one more thing off my plate19:52
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-June/118473.html Tagging mitaka as EOL19:53
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fungii'll follow up to your reply on the ml19:54
fungiclarkb: do you (or anybody else) know the status on gerrit review tags? ttx was asking in this thread:19:54
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-June/118960.html Turning TC/UC workgroups into OpenStack SIGs19:55
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fungii vaguely recall earlier discussions suggesting that was waiting for their notedb implementation19:55
fungiso not sure if 2.13 gets us far enough for that19:55
clarkbfungi: I tried to find mention of them in changelog and docs and found nothing19:56
clarkbI wonder if they just stalled out19:56
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fungiwhat was the word they actually used for those (as "tags" would be ambiguous with git tags)19:56
jeblairhashtag was used at one point19:57
clarkbI dont recall19:57
fungi#link https://bugs.chromium.org/p/gerrit/issues/detail?id=287 arbitrary labels/tags on changes19:58
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fungii'll follow up to the ml after reading whatever i can find, if nobody beats me to it19:59
jeblairmy google bubble pointed me at that20:00
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fungistrange indeed!20:00
clarkblooks like you have to enable notedb20:00
fungiand we're out of time20:00
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fungithanks everyone!20:00
clarkbwhich last I read is not stable20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 27 20:00:45 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2017/infra.2017-06-27-19.03.html20:00
clarkbmay be possible in 2.14?20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2017/infra.2017-06-27-19.03.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2017/infra.2017-06-27-19.03.log.html20:00
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fungireminder: no tc meeting this week, though we have office hours in #openstack-tc coming up in a few hours at 01:0020:01
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martial#startmeeting scientific-wg21:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 27 21:03:06 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is martial. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg'21:03
martialBlair, are you around?21:03
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martial#chair b1airo21:04
openstackCurrent chairs: b1airo martial21:04
martialHi Blair21:04
martialjust in time, I just started the meeting21:04
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martialwelcome everybody to the weekly Scientific Working group meeting21:05
martialthis week will mostly be a repeat of last week with the small addition that some of my team members will do a quick introduction of their work21:05
lizhongHi, I am Lizhong from NIST, working with martial21:06
martialhello Pierre21:06
Maxime_Hi, I'm Maxime from NIST too, also working with Martial21:06
Pooneet_ThaperHello, I am Pooneet from NIST and I am also working with Martial21:06
trandleso/ Hi folks21:06
b1airosorry i am juggling kid breakfast for a moment :-/21:07
martial#topic Optimal meeting time21:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Optimal meeting time (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:07
martialblair: no worries21:07
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martialso the discussion last week was to be 1100UTC21:07
martial(seems to be 7pm EST)21:08
martialb1airo: is that for the Tuesday meeting?21:08
trandlesI think your timezone conversion is a bit off there martial21:08
b1airo7am here now :-)21:09
priteaumartial: I think that's AM, for the Wednesday21:09
b1airoyep, 1100UTC will make it 9pm here21:09
martialoops sorry, let me try again 1100UTC for the Wednesday meeting (so 7 AM EST )21:10
martial(thanks Pierre)21:10
martialI see the action items have b1airo instigate the changes21:11
priteauInstead of 0900 UTC currently21:11
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martialso the schedule would be tuesday 2100 utc and wednesday 1100 utc21:12
martialokay, good thanks for clarifying21:12
martialnext topic, then21:13
martial#topic Scientific app catalogues on OpenStack21:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Scientific app catalogues on OpenStack (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:13
priteauwe still needed to check for meeting slot availability though21:13
martialPierre: b1airo can update us on this item when he is available21:14
priteauyes, let's move on21:15
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martialrelated to the new topic, stig noted that "there appear to be several groups around the world who want to get started on making app catalogues for their users"21:15
martialpriteau added "Orchestration templates (Heat or CloudFormation or something else) should be handled as well as disk images21:15
martialas well as "orchestrated templates"21:16
martial#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2017/scientific_wg.2017-06-21-09.00.log.html21:16
martial(the full log from last time)21:16
martialanything to add to this?21:17
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martialI did not seem to see a consensus on the subject from the logs21:18
b1airook, better half has taken over!21:19
martialsome talk about Murano, Heat templates and such21:20
martialb1airo: welcome back21:20
martialb1airo: question for you, have you confirmed the 1100 UTC slot availability?21:20
b1airohmm rather than having everyone read the logs in the meeting let's see what people are doing about app distribution and sharing on their clouds today?21:20
b1airono haven't looked at that yet, but it was the consensus from the ML and last week's meeting21:21
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b1airomartial, trandles - you guys weren't in last week's meeting, how do you approach "App/VM catalogs" ?21:22
trandlesWe don't have any app catalog functionality.  Our "cloudy" solution, charliecloud, uses docker tools to build container images, so we use docker hub21:24
martialAs for us, I would invite my team to introduce the tool we were discussing at the beginning21:24
trandlesHowever I would like to implement some kind of catalog functionality for center-provided images already containing applications.  We just haven't started down that path yet.21:25
bastafidli_We are using Juju and enabling it both on Ubuntu and CentOS21:25
lizhongHi, I'd like to introduce Conducere we've been developing21:26
lizhongHere is a short introduction21:26
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lizhongConducere, latin for conductor, is a simplified orchestration layer on top of OpenStack to instantiate a ready-to-use cluster for data science projects. It is designed to alleviate the complexity of deploying a reproducible infrastructure. It spawns a cluster and ensures creation time specialization of its nodes.21:26
b1airotrandles, the "Contributed Images" we have on Nectar might be along the lines you are thinking - really just a bit of policy and procedure around a new tab in the Images page of Horizon21:27
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priteaulizhong: is it simplified as in simpler than Heat?21:27
lizhongFeatures of Conducere:21:28
lizhong- Spawn a cluster using OpenStack Heat21:28
lizhong- Install tools and configure nodes and services using Ansible21:28
b1airobastafidli_, where is it that you use Juju ?21:28
lizhong- Currently, supports Hadoop, Spark, Ganglia, NFS and NTP21:28
lizhong- Customize roles of nodes: master, worker, client and storage21:28
lizhongpriteau: Actually, it uses Heat to spawn a cluster, but we have pre-defined templates21:29
b1airolizhong, so you essentially just use Heat to bootstrap and then hand-off to Ansible for the rest ?21:29
bastafidli_b1airo, I am with Lenovo, we are utilizing Juju and Charms as there are many examples for existing applications, big data clusters, etc.21:30
priteaulizhong: Are your templates public? I would be curious to see what they look like21:30
lizhongThat's correct. We also try to define roles for cluster nodes21:30
b1airobastafidli_, yes i looked at Juju again recently (after unsteady early experience) and was impressed with how it has grown21:30
martialpriteau: we are starting the review process to put everything on github21:30
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lizhongpriteau, We need to do some paperwork at NIST befeor publishing it, but it'll be very soon.21:31
martialb1airo: yes, but we have also availability of the extra tool developed by lizhong (that Dmoni we had been speaking for a bit) to collect overall cluster/host/program metrics21:31
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b1airolizhong, you mentioned "reproducible infrastructure" - what do you mean by this with Conducere ?21:32
lizhongblairo, the cluster is defined by config file, so with the same configration, we should be able to get the same cluster.21:33
b1airoright, makes sense, just wasn't sure if there was anything more to it than "infra as code"21:35
lizhongblairo, you are right, it's the same idea21:35
lizhongWe try to add components for Data science projects, e.g. Hadoop, Spark, etc.21:36
b1airolizhong, what sort of OpenStack features do your Heat templates assume the underlying cloud provides?21:36
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martialb1airo: I think a lot of that is described in the deployment manual but we are relying on the user to have at least a basic understanding of openstack (need the IDs and the routers setup before deploying the rest)21:39
Maxime_This template assumes that the cluster provides router resources, and creates the networks and the nodes according to some provided parameters21:39
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Maxime_blairo: Does that answer your question?21:40
martialone of the core needs I explained a while back is the desire to allow our partners to bring their algorithms in house and access data sets21:40
b1airook, so Tenant Networks are a requirement then?21:40
b1airodo the templates create new networks or can they use provider nets ?21:41
martialyes a project networking need to be predefined21:41
Maxime_blairo: The template creates the router, and a virtual network21:42
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b1airook, thanks21:42
b1airoshall we move on then?21:43
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martialb1airo: I am hoping to get the project on github shortly (have to clear a few things internally first)21:43
martialwe welcome comments as always :)21:43
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martial#topic Security of research computing instances21:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Security of research computing instances (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:44
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b1airowhen i suggested that topic i really intended to limit the discussion to network security, but that was a bit lost in the 8 mins or so we managed to spend on it last week21:44
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martialb1airo: hey you got 16 minutes :)21:45
b1airoand this is honestly a self serving topic as i would like to introduce some firewall capabilities into our cloud, so interested in experiences with different options21:45
b1airoright now our research cloud environment is essentially a big DMZ, we have Internet border taps to a firewall that give us some visibility, but honestly it is not that great today21:47
martialb1airo: not much here from us at least21:48
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b1airobasically i'd like to provide opt-in firewalling to tenants21:49
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b1airoan OpenStack FWaaS doesn't seem like a real option today21:49
trandlesopt-in firewalling to tenants...does that mean tenants can opt-in to having a firewall they manage?21:49
b1airotrandles, ideally they would get some management of it, but if that turns out to be too hard then i'll settle for having a firewall acting as the gateway on specific provider net/s21:50
b1airowith some integration scripting to tell the firewall which IPs in the subnet belong to which tenants at any time21:51
trandlesI think "too hard" is likely.  If you do something like that, I'd like to hear how it impacted your support requirements.21:52
b1airoi'd prefer to not force users into having tenant networks for it, as they mostly don't today21:52
trandleswe have experience with "automating" some iptables stuff to isolate an early VM-based user-defined software stack thing we did but it was fraught with peril21:52
b1airoyes i agree, i think our itsec folks will be happy to assist if folks need customisation21:53
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trandlesI put "automating" in quotes because it was largely managed by slurm prolog/epilog scripts and the users couldn't touch it21:53
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trandlestoo many failure modes left the firewall in a bad state21:53
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priteaub1airo: What are the limitations of FWaaS?21:53
trandlesso we ditched it entirely21:53
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b1airopriteau, honestly i need to read up on FWaaS v2 as last time i looked into this it wasn't ready21:55
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b1airothe other part is that when i talked to a few NGFW vendors, the only OpenStack integrations i came across were either not really integrations or completely ignored FWaaS and wanted to install stuff across the hypervisors etc21:56
priteauno Horizon support in v2 apparently21:57
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b1airoyeah it still looks rather green21:58
b1airooh well, guess i'll let you know how we go!21:58
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b1airotime to wrap up21:59
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 27 21:59:40 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2017/scientific_wg.2017-06-27-21.03.html21:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2017/scientific_wg.2017-06-27-21.03.txt21:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2017/scientific_wg.2017-06-27-21.03.log.html21:59
martialThank you everybody :)22:00
b1airoby the way, there is a relevant discussion happening across MLs at the moment about renaming WGs to SIGs - don't think that will have any major implications of scientific at this stage though22:00
b1airocheers all22:00
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