Wednesday, 2017-11-22

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songit is a little cold today.01:15
songis it  meeting canceled  today?01:16
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Dinesh_Bhorgongysh: Hi04:29
MinWookKim  Hi04:30
Dinesh_Bhorphuoc_: Hi04:30
gongysh#startmeeting tacker04:30
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 22 04:30:18 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is gongysh. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.04:30
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tacker)"04:30
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tacker'04:30
gongysh#topic roll call04:30
*** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: tacker)"04:30
gongyshdiga, hi04:30
digagongysh: hello04:30
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gongyshYanXingAn, hi04:31
gongyshhow is the bug smash day?04:31
YanXingAn40 people04:31
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gongysha large team.04:32
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phuoc_hi janki, Dinesh_Bhor04:33
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gongyshit seems dk, our bug triager is not here.04:33
jankiphuoc_, hey04:33
gongyshok, let get started04:34
gongysh#topic bp04:34
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gongyshphuoc_, anything from your bp?04:34
phuoc_first, I will start with mardim's bp04:34
phuoc_about vnffg update, what do you guys think about updating flow-classifier and the path04:35
phuoc_should we use parameters or put it all in vnffg file04:35
phuoc_update flow-classifier, we can add or delete flow-classifiers04:36
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phuoc_update path, we can change the order vnfs in path or remove/add new vnfs in vnffg04:37
gongyshphuoc_, I think we should have command parameter for it04:37
digayes, parameter way looks good to me for updating04:38
digaI haven't gone through the spec yet, will review it today04:38
phuoc_because there are too much parameters, if we use parameters it can be hard to to it04:38
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phuoc_I will discuss with mardim later04:39
phuoc_About applying containerized VNF, I will upload [WIP] code in this week04:39
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phuoc_Hope you guys can review it04:40
phuoc_that's all from me04:40
gongyshphuoc_, thanks04:40
digaphuoc_: you means for this spec -
digait is not merged yet I guess04:41
phuoc_diga, yes04:41
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digawait, we should merge this first then start working on it04:41
phuoc_We need to figure out more thing to merge it :)04:41
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digagongysh: can we merge this now ?04:41
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gongyshdiga, our new rules are to merge spec when we have code available.04:42
digaphuoc_: yes, will work on it, add those reviews comment04:42
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phuoc_I think we can code and change spec parallel, because I am also not sure the right way to do it :)04:42
gongyshauthor can code along side spec.04:42
digagongysh: :) when we decided that, didn't know04:43
gongyshthe CI failed due to ci zuul3's change. I will update it.04:43
phuoc_gongysh, thanks04:43
gongyshdiga, this is because we have some specs merged, but no implementation at all.04:43
digagongysh: I started the implementation on API framework -
digagongysh: This work should go to feature/falcon-api-framework branch04:44
gongyshphuoc_, do you have any problems with containized vnf?04:45
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gongyshwe will first use pure k8s vim and then maybe have a k8s-kuryer vim04:45
gongyshso assume the current kubernetes vim is a pure k8s vim.04:45
Dinesh_Bhordiga: Thanks! The blueprint link in the commit message is broken. Need to be fixed.04:45
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phuoc_gongysh, sure, now I will focus on features, which can be supported by pure kubernetes and k8s-kuryr04:46
digaDinesh_Bhor: okay, will take a look at it04:46
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digagongysh: phuoc_ : Are we talking about K8s as VIM or Containerized VNF on k8s ?04:47
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gongyshdiga, shouldn't we rebase the tacker-api-framework branch?04:47
gongyshthe API branch is too old04:47
digagongysh: I will do that first,yes04:47
digagongysh: didn't get chance to look at that part actually04:48
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gongyshdiga,  what about openstack command spec?04:48
gongyshyou said your guys will work on it04:48
digagongysh: by the way, I am planning to submit first base framework without test cases for 1st patch04:49
digagongysh: new comers are working on bug fixes now to get understanding of code base04:49
gongyshdiga, ok, thanks04:49
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digagongysh: will then move them to cli, in the queens-2 release04:50
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gongyshYanXingAn is on chinese bug smash day04:51
digahnmn3: kapil__ : will be working on bugs now04:51
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gongyshMinWookKim, hi04:52
phuoc_hnmn3, kapil__ thanks!04:52
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MinWookKimgongysh, ho04:52
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gongyshMinWookKim, could you please talk about your BP?04:52
hnmn3phuoc_: welcome04:52
kapil__phuoc: Thanks04:52
MinWookKimgongysh, Currently in progress, we are considering Respawn, Scale Action. There is nothing special about it.04:53
gongyshMinWookKim, do you have a demo for this feature?04:53
MinWookKimgongysh, I have a video demo. :)04:54
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digaMinWookKim: share the link then, will go through it04:55
gongyshMinWookKim, yes, great, share it if ok.04:55
MinWookKimOkay, Wait a moment04:56
phuoc_hnmn3, kapil__, I think you guys can upload the code in Tacker review with [WIP] prefix04:57
gongyshMinWookKim, you can put it here anytime.04:57
gongyshlets move to next topic04:57
phuoc_So, other guys can give comments about it :)04:57
gongysh#topic bug04:57
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digaphuoc_: they will do it by next week, now they are setting up tacker04:57
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gongyshseems we have no much progress on bug fixing04:58
digagongysh: what's the end date of queens-204:58
gongyshdiga, do you guys have any progress?04:58
digagongysh: yes, we will finish atleast 3-4 bugs by next weeks but it seems no our bugs tagged for q-204:59
openstackLaunchpad bug 1733491 in tacker "NS failed to deploy" [High,New] - Assigned to dharmendra (dharmendra-kushwaha)05:00
digagongysh: also I don't see API-framework BP in the release, can you add it there as I am working on it now05:00
phuoc_we have a bug related to ns05:00
digadkushwaha should have attended this meeting, he knows the status of bugs05:01
gongyshphuoc_, it is strange, we have CI which have passed the NS creation.05:02
gongyshit should be environment problem.05:02
gongyshdiga, ok05:02
gongysh#action pull API BP to queens-3 by gongysh05:02
digaalso pull CLI05:03
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gongysh#topic open discuss05:04
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MinWookKimgongysh, I uploaded it.
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digaMinWookKim: Thanks05:06
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MinWookKimdiga, :)05:06
phuoc_diga, about VMware spec, Is it good progressing ?05:06
digaphuoc_: YEs, I am submitting the BP today, first draft by friday05:07
digaphuoc_: looks like Vmware has lot of work to do for integration purpose05:07
phuoc_I also want to learn VMware05:07
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digaphuoc_: once I submit a spec, will involve you05:08
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digaphuoc_: let's talk about containerized VNF tasks after this call05:09
gongyshI just watched the video.05:09
gongyshit is nice.05:09
gongyshdo you guys have anything to talk?05:10
phuoc_gongysh, we should improve ns05:10
gongyshwe should merged the k8s vim related codes before q-2 deadline.05:10
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gongyshphuoc_,  yes.05:10
phuoc_currently, ns can't create vnffg05:11
gongyshphuoc_,  there is a bp on it.05:11
phuoc_Dinesh_Bhor, I think you can help YangXingAn to start with it05:12
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gongyshMost of time, YanXingan is persuading his boss to use tacker, so no much time to improve tacker.05:13
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gongyshHope Yanxingan will make it to make his boss pay more on tacker.05:14
gongyshany other stuff?05:14
gongyshif no, we can end today's meeting05:15
gongyshI will have a patch to fix the ci staff.05:15
gongyshthanks everyone05:15
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"05:15
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 22 05:15:44 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)05:15
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oneswig#startmeeting scientific-sig11:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 22 11:00:40 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is oneswig. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.11:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-sig)"11:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scientific_sig'11:00
oneswigLets see what happens with the name change...11:00
oneswig#link agenda for today
oneswigroll call - who's here?11:02
* ildikov is lurking :)11:03
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oneswighello again john, hi ildiko11:03
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oneswigawfully quiet this morning...11:03
ildikovoneswig: johnthetubaguy: hi :)11:03
* johnthetubaguy hides from ildikov 11:04
johnthetubaguyonly kidding :)11:04
ildikovjohnthetubaguy: well, I have a new version of the new attach flow patch that you should review :)11:04
ildikovjohnthetubaguy: I can ask oneswig to remind you after the meeting if that helps ;)11:05
oneswigHi b1airo11:05
johnthetubaguyildikov: totally should go have a look at that again, something for after lunch with a nice coffee :)11:05
oneswig#chair b1airo11:05
b1aironot sure i will manage to stay the course - quickly fading through combination of jetlag and heat11:05
openstackCurrent chairs: b1airo oneswig11:05
ildikovjohnthetubaguy: tests are supposed to pass now, so pretty please11:05
oneswigb1airo: shall we do a roundup of SC first up then?11:05
oneswig#topic SC roundup11:06
ildikovjohnthetubaguy: mriedem has Turkey week going so you're my only hope11:06
*** openstack changes topic to "SC roundup (Meeting topic: scientific-sig)"11:06
oneswigTurkey week - ha! :-)11:06
oneswig#link SKA keynote at SC
oneswigcheck out the A/V gear on stage there...11:07
b1airoi haven't actually seen the keynote yet, was it good?11:07
oneswigmakes the OpenStack summit look like a school play!11:07
oneswigb1airo: I think it was well received.  John T was there and saw some enthusiastic response11:08
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b1airosounds like they got Alexa to read the intro...11:08
oneswigyes, it's a peculiar voice over.  A bit like a very calm customer support kind of voice11:09
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oneswigb1airo: you mentioned the BoF was pretty well attended, but perhaps too many speakers up front for one session?11:11
b1airoi'd say slightly lower attendance than last year but still a pretty full room11:11
oneswigLast year was a very big room11:12
b1airothere was also a HPC Cloud BoF by DK Panda and co. on at the same time11:12
b1airoso not great scheduling11:12
oneswigJohn T tells me that went off on a docker vs singularity tangent11:12
b1airoi didn't speak to anyone that went to that BoF yet though so can't say if it pulled much attention11:12
oneswigand was not rich in data analytics content11:13
b1airooh ok11:13
b1airothe actual Shifter / Singularity / CharlieCloud session was very demilitarised11:13
oneswigas in, no religious war?11:14
b1airoyeah, uncontroversial11:14
oneswigthat sounds better.11:14
oneswigHow were the OpenStack talks at the IU booth?11:15
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b1airothere were some guys (i forget names and orgs) apparently representing europe (big call) on that panel who made some interesting points about MPI integration11:15
oneswig"speaking on behalf of Europe"... that's saying something,11:16
b1airogood, i think Tim probably had the most new material to share. also had that Intel fellow talking about OpenHPC integration11:17
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oneswigWas that Jeff?  I think he's moved internally within Intel, unfortunately11:17
oneswigDid the books all go?11:17
b1airoJeff sounds good - I had John stuck in my head by knew it wasn't right :-)11:18
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b1airoit's 10:20pm and still almost 30C11:19
oneswigAre you in Australia?  It wasn't like that a couple of weeks ago...11:19
b1airobooks were well received in the BoF. i think the IU booth still had a few on Wednesday evening but probably distributed the rest on Thurs11:19
b1airoyep - Melbourne weather!11:20
ildikovit's not 30C everywhere, but it's definitely a pretty nice evening :)11:20
oneswigOK, good to know about the books.11:20
b1airo4 seasons in 1 day and all that11:20
b1airoildikov, where are you this evening?11:20
oneswigb1airo: it's only dark season here today...11:21
ildikovb1airo: Forster (great Lakes or something like 4 hours North from Sydney)11:21
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oneswigildikov: nice!  Is it safe to swim in the lakes or are they full of toxic Australian fauna?11:22
ildikovoneswig: haven't asked/tried yet11:22
b1airore. SC17, if I had to sum things up I'd say my impression is that OpenStack seems quite entrenched across quite a few large scale lab and university hpc centres now11:22
ildikovoneswig: but it certainly sounds discouraging to do so :)11:23
b1airoi think next year we would do well to spend more time on going around the room and trying to pull out bugbears and common problems11:23
oneswigb1airo: good to know.  Part of the wider movement out of the lab and into production in research computing11:23
ildikovb1airo: that sounds pretty good!11:24
b1airothe challenge is to pull the conversation away from specific version and upgrade issues towards unmet requirements11:24
oneswigb1airo: I think you are right.  It's too easy to talk without encouraging the quiet ones at the back to add their thoughts11:24
ildikovb1airo: is there any chance to have them involved in the SIG for instance or it's trickier than that?11:25
oneswigI was encouraged at how many people in Sydney had not taken part in the SIG previously11:25
johnthetubaguyIn the past an etherpad to type your thoughts on certainly helps get thoughts from those that don't want to speak up over the loud people11:26
ildikovjohnthetubaguy: +111:26
b1airoagreed, i did use an etherpad :-D11:26
oneswigjohnthetubaguy: sure, we had one11:26
oneswigbut I'm not sure how much it was used.11:27
b1airothere were maybe 8 people on it at most though11:27
oneswigThere's a culture of debate-via-etherpad that doesn't come naturally outside of upstream contributors11:27
johnthetubaguyyeah, making people use the thing can be harder11:27
b1airo(however i was only able to put the URL up during the first 5 minutes as presenters had their own slides and there was no other screen or board11:27
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johnthetubaguyprobably not all their with their laptop charged ready to type in an etherpad11:27
johnthetubaguyah... slides, that kills etherpad use11:28
oneswigI think the lightning talks went quite well though - we had some good diversity of content there.11:28
b1airooneswig, yes i find the debate via etherpad thing very hard to follow - basically killed my following of updates to the recent LTS discussion11:29
johnthetubaguy(clearly there is no perfect solution here, very curious how it goes outside of the OpenStack world!)11:29
b1airooneswig, agreed, was good to have some new (to me at least) stories there11:29
oneswigjohnthetubaguy: me too.  Is K8s developed in this manner I wonder?11:30
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johnthetubaguyoneswig: yeah, don't know11:30
johnthetubaguygood to see more folks stepping up to speak, sounds healthy :)11:30
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oneswigildikov: do you know how well subscribed the openstack-sigs mailing list is now?  Just wondering if we should keep discussions on operators and sigs lists11:31
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ildikovoneswig: I don't have the number, but will ask11:32
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oneswigat some point discussions should cut over from cross-posting but don't want to lose the relevant audience by doing that prematurely...11:32
ildikovoneswig: we keep referring to it in some Dev ML discussions etc and encouraging people to join, so I would think it's going up11:33
oneswigOK, that's good.11:33
ildikovI will get back to you on this11:33
oneswigI think we are too thin on the ground today to do much with the other items on the agenda. I suggest I follow up on the mailing list about them.11:35
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oneswigI had one item - for next week, a Slurm-on-OpenStack theme.  b1airo do you think Chris Hines would be interested?11:35
b1airooneswig, yes i'm sure he would11:36
b1airoi suspect many HPC operators would be11:36
oneswigPiyanai I know was interested in presenting their work again11:37
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b1airooneswig, did you attend the ORC meeting on Thurs after the Summit?11:39
oneswigOK, let's aim for that.  I'll see if we can get the Intel OpenHPC team involved too.11:39
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oneswigb1airo: yes I did - with ildikov11:39
b1airoi heard you might have been a bit worse for wear...11:39
b1airodidn't see you at Karaoke though??11:40
oneswigI went on for high-level discussions with Tim afterwards...11:40
ildikovyep, I can confirm oneswig was there too :)11:40
oneswigildikov: sorry to leave abruptly11:40
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b1airoTim said he thought it was an improved meeting11:41
ildikovoneswig: all good, everyone was leaving quickly after the group photo11:41
oneswigI must admit, I'm glad I didn't make it to karaoke, could have been far worse...11:41
ildikovb1airo: good news I guess, I wanted to ask for feedback :)11:41
b1airoby the way on this topic - I was chatting to Resa Reynolds from Cornell, they are one of the partners in this project:
b1airoi know Resa through the DellXL HPC community. they were previously using Eucalyptus but are currently making the switch to OpenStack11:43
ildikovoh, with the NSF stamp on it, nice11:43
b1airoyeah, i wondered whether the ORC chairs have been in touch with them - should be looking to collaborate11:43
oneswigildikov: The impression I got was the initiative wants to arrive at a (distant) goal but should focus more on first steps.  Perhaps I'm not active enough in the discussions but I was expecting to see something more like a roadmap.  Early days still?11:44
ildikovb1airo: not sure, but I can bring this up on one of the upcoming meetings11:44
b1airo(in fact the NSF people showed up at their booth when I was there!)11:44
ildikovb1airo: oh, nice!11:45
b1airoplease do ildikov - like oneswig I feel a bit too removed from the conversation to put my oar in and don't have the bandwidth either11:45
ildikovoneswig: something like, I think we would like to set up a goal to agree on and encourage more organizations/institutions to get involved and set up that roadmap11:45
b1airo...i wonder whether we could convince them to piggy-back on our meetings every so often11:46
ildikovoneswig: or as they operate now that's what seems "doable" to me at this point11:46
oneswigildikov: institutions will want to see evidence of an advantage to the effort of taking part, I guess11:46
ildikovhowever trying to encourage people to set up some achievable items as I think that would be more appealing11:46
ildikovb1airo: will do, I will also encourage them to take some notes from the meetings11:47
ildikovb1airo: I think I'll fly during the next one and it's almost impossible to figure out what happened during these calls if you don't attend :(11:47
oneswigIsn't Martial a co-chair now?11:47
ildikovyep, he is11:48
ildikovso there should be a close connection besides me11:48
b1airothe teleconference thing is not great11:48
ildikovI think he usually attends this meeting when it's in his TZ11:48
ildikovb1airo: there are communities that handle it, but they take at least some notes on IRC or some other format11:49
oneswiglast time he was up at 2am, as I recall.  There are very few things I'll get up at 2am for.11:49
ildikovORC has Slack now11:49
ildikovbut no real activity there at this point11:49
b1airoi also heard some gossip that set off alarm bells for me - was Khalil suggesting the concept of a broker appliance ?11:49
ildikovI'll try and see whether I can get some life on it :)11:49
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ildikovhe has a few figures now with stuff like that11:50
ildikovI need to look up the slides though, I don't remember the structure that well, maybe oneswig does11:50
oneswigThere was a hardware appliance in the concept diagram which was not well received.11:51
oneswigI think it was more of a gateway - don't remember any reference to a broker.11:52
ildikovI remember the gateway impression11:52
ildikovI got confused on some of the parts11:52
ildikovand I also mentioned that if any SW gets developed we should have an open source reference implementation11:53
ildikovwe almost got into a don't close out commercial players debate on that one...11:53
ildikovI don't think we're on a wrong track, they just need heads up on aspects every now and then11:55
verdurinOkay, I confess I hadn't updated my calendar entry for the time change. Bah.11:56
b1airohi verdurin :-)11:56
oneswigverdurin: never mind, we can run for a second hour :-)11:56
ildikovverdurin: been there, done that, I missed almost all my meetings for days for the last one...11:57
verdurinDefinite interest from the RCUK Cloud WG for input to our workshop from the SIG11:57
b1airoone of the interesting things about the project that Resa mentioned was that they were figuring out some sort of capacity exchange mechanism - from the website: "This project will serve as an important model for campus cyberinfrastructure that other institutions can follow providing flexibility in support of multi-discipline scientific workflows, elasticity by sharing resources, and an allocation model that provides a fair11:57
b1airoexchange mechanism for resource access between and across multiple institutions."11:57
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oneswigOK, alas we are out of time11:59
ildikovb1airo: that indeed sounds interesting11:59
oneswigb1airo: there's a good deal in common there.  Can we get them along to a meeting?11:59
ildikovb1airo: would be good to connect with them11:59
oneswigb1airo: Whenever I see bartering of resources I think of
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martial_: I seem to be 1h late when I thought to be on time12:00
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oneswigOK, time's up, thanks ildikov johnthetubaguy b1airo verdurin12:00
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b1airoha, yes a classic oneswig12:01
ildikovoneswig: hmmm, didn't know the Hungarian version before :)12:01
oneswigah hello martial_ - alas it seems so12:01
oneswigI'm sure you'll be out in force next week :-)12:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"12:01
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 22 12:01:46 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)12:01
openstackMinutes (text):
martial_weird my calendar thinks I am on time ... DST and all12:01
ildikovmartial_: the switch from daylight savings gets as all at some point it seems :)12:01
oneswigBTW I did this meeting as scientific_sig not scientific_wg12:02
b1airogood thing there is no daylight savings in UTC, otherwise we'd never meet at the right time!12:02
ildikovb1airo: +112:02
martial_okay cool, sorry12:02
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dougszhey all15:01
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dougszany monasca folks here for the meeting?15:01
oansonIsn't the massively distributed meeting here now?15:01
ad_rien_this is the time for the femdc SIG?15:01
ad_rien_#startmeeting massively_distributed_clouds15:02
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 22 15:02:10 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ad_rien_. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: massively_distributed_clouds)"15:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'massively_distributed_clouds'15:02
ad_rien_#chair ad_rien_15:02
openstackCurrent chairs: ad_rien_15:02
ad_rien_#topic roll call15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: massively_distributed_clouds)"15:02
ad_rien_so sorry for the delay, I'm attending a conference and I need to find a more peaceful location.15:03
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ad_rien_So don't know how many people will be there today (thanksgivings week)15:03
ad_rien_so let's see15:03
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msimonin1hey o/15:03
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ad_rien_so Three ;)15:04
ad_rien_anyone else15:04
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ad_rien_#info agenda15:05
ad_rien_#link line 148415:06
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ad_rien_so before starting may I ask to the new folks who they are? and what are your expectactions with respect to the FEMDC SiG15:07
msimonin#link line 148415:07
msimonin(one typo in the above link)15:07
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* irenab working both on Dragonflow ad Kurryr projects, here to understand better the use cases and requirements15:08
ad_rien_welcome irenab15:08
msimoninwelcome irenab15:08
oansonI'm new. I was in the Sydney Summit workgroup meeting and would like to hear more info. I'm also on the Dragonflow project.15:08
msimoninwelcome oanson :)15:09
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ad_rien_great to see more folks15:09
ad_rien_and If I'm correct lihi ?15:09
lihiYes :)15:09
lihiAlso working on Dragonflow. I've been in your session at the summit, and would love to hear more15:09
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ad_rien_So we are used to work with the etherpad (as usual in the OpenStack community). Please feel free to comment or add questions directly in the pad15:11
ad_rien_msimonin copied the link and the line15:11
ad_rien_any question before starting ?15:11
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ad_rien_#topic announcement15:12
oansonNone here.15:12
*** openstack changes topic to "announcement (Meeting topic: massively_distributed_clouds)"15:12
ad_rien_so I don't not have too many information to share today15:12
ad_rien_as I said this is the thanksgivings week and more of our US folks are on vacations.15:12
ad_rien_Maybe two points (already noticed in the pad)15:12
ad_rien_First there is a new mailing list that has been created by the OpenSTack foundation15:13
ad_rien_I do not have additional information but the one I shared on the pad15:13
ad_rien_I sent an email to the foundation to try to clarify what are the objectives of this new ML and the envisioned working sessions that have been highlighted in the invitation15:13
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ad_rien_the second point is related to the latest document AT&T did on the edge computing15:14
ad_rien_I put the link in the pad too15:14
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ad_rien_Last but not the least, dpertin is still on vacations so we do not debrief yet regarding the summit15:15
ad_rien_The only information I have is that there were several sessions dealing with edge computing challenges.15:16
ad_rien_I hope dpertin or parus will be able to share important feedbacks during the next meeting.15:16
ad_rien_So that's all from my side.15:16
ad_rien_Any news to share ?15:16
irenabI also saw the Use Cases doc. Is there any recording of the presentation?15:16
ad_rien_the session chaired by Beth (verizon)?15:17
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irenabnot sure, Telco Edge use cases15:17
ad_rien_AFAIK, we are still working on the white paper (we expect to release it by the end of the year).15:17
ad_rien_there are still some points that need to be clarified in particular on the requirements15:18
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irenabso is this going to be discussed during the next meetings?15:18
ad_rien_regarding to these slides. I think it is preferable to wait for parus (paul-andre) for the next meeting15:18
ad_rien_irenab:  yes ;) ?15:19
ad_rien_Paul-André is chairing this action.15:19
ad_rien_#action Paul-Andre should give us feedbacks on his presentation15:19
irenabI thought maybe it was presented in Sydney15:19
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ad_rien_yes it has been presented as a lighting talk15:20
msimoninthis maybe :
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ad_rien_If I'm right15:20
ad_rien_msimonin:  yes thanks15:21
irenabmsimonin: thanks15:21
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ad_rien_#topic on-going actions - Use-cases15:21
*** openstack changes topic to "on-going actions - Use-cases (Meeting topic: massively_distributed_clouds)"15:21
ad_rien_can be better as we already started to discuss about use-cases15:22
ad_rien_is there anyone from FBK ?15:22
ad_rien_I don't think so...15:22
ad_rien_so the meeting would probably be shorter today .15:22
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ad_rien_ok so I guess that we neither have folks from ericsson unfortunately ?15:24
msimoninIt seems it's Inria/Dragonflow meeting :)15:24
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ad_rien_ok so we can probably change the agenda ?15:25
ad_rien_I mean this can be more fruitful for everyone?15:25
msimoninyes probably15:25
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ad_rien_The agenda has been updated with enough information from my viewpoint regarding current status of on-going actions15:25
ad_rien_if this is ok for everyone, we can maybe try to answer the questions you may have15:25
msimoninWe can have a pass on the two actions AMQP and cockroach ?15:26
ad_rien_so irenab lihi oanson ?15:26
ad_rien_as you want15:26
ad_rien_so let's do a brief pass on cockroach and AMQP15:26
ad_rien_and then let the floor to DragonFlow folks ?15:26
msimoninI can try to sum up these with rcherrueau15:26
msimoninyes let's do this15:26
ad_rien_#topic on-going action - cockroach -15:27
*** openstack changes topic to "on-going action - cockroach - (Meeting topic: massively_distributed_clouds)"15:27
ad_rien_so rcherrueau ?15:27
rcherrueauMay I put the general idea for dragon flow folks?15:27
ad_rien_or the other way ?15:28
ad_rien_no, please go on rcherrueau15:28
rcherrueauWhen you look at OpenStack services there are two components that don't scale15:28
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rcherrueauthe message bus and the database15:28
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rcherrueauyou know that, for sure, because dragon decided to change the database backend15:29
oansonYes. Also the message bus was changed15:29
msimoninoanson: ah !15:29
rcherrueauat dragon flow, you decided to go with a NoSQL database (if I remember correctly)15:29
irenabrcherrueau: right, no need for AMQP15:30
oansonYes. We use a distributed key-value store. We use a pub/sub mechanism on top of that, so messages are passed with less overhead.15:30
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rcherrueauGoing with a NoSQL database, is a good option, but you have to re-implement all queries15:30
irenabbut this resolves the networking part, there arestill other openstack services that require them15:31
rcherrueauyes, some openstack services really need a sql database15:31
rcherrueauor, at least, a database that implements the sql semantic15:31
oansonrcherrueau, we re-wrote the entire db model (for better or for worse)15:31
rcherrueauAnd here come NewSQL databases15:32
rcherrueauNewSQL databases are SQL databases that are distributed and scale out15:32
rcherrueauand also implements the sql semantics15:32
irenabI am still learning about this group objectives, so correct me if I am wrong. You are looking to resolve more than networking part. Resolve general Edge<->DC/Cloud use case. right?15:33
rcherrueau(ACID properties and transactions work like in a centralized sql database)15:33
rcherrueauFor my side, I am looking at making some OpenStack services (keystone, nova) work on top of CockroachDB (a NewSQL database)15:34
ad_rien_irenab:  yes ?15:34
ad_rien_s/yes ? /yes !15:34
msimoninirenab: yes, the ultimate goal15:34
rcherrueauto get a collaboration with many instances for free15:34
ad_rien_the goal is to revise OpenStack core-services to be able to operte fog/edge infrastructures15:34
ad_rien_so the first challenge is to deal with scalability/distribution issue15:35
rcherrueausince the will all share the same state15:35
ad_rien_as rcherrueau said the DB and the communication bus are the first challenge to address15:35
ad_rien_(then you have to deal with efficient management of VM images, network issues related to cross domain, i.e. tricircle like proposals…)15:35
ad_rien_sorry rcherrueau please go on (I hope I clarified your question irenab )15:36
irenabad_rien_: agree, it is challenging enough in large single data center, so can imagine once distributed across many PoPs15:36
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ad_rien_actually the first experiments we made are encouraging15:36
ad_rien_but rcherrueau and msimonin can say more15:36
rcherrueauSo, regarding the support of CockroachDB we now passes all migrations during the deployment of keystone and nova15:37
rcherrueauWhich means you can go with devstack, then define CockroachDB as db backend, and the deployment phase will be successful15:38
rcherrueauQueries works for Keystone15:38
rcherrueaubut some don't work for nova15:38
rcherrueauQueries that don't work for nova are "correlated subqueries"15:39
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rcherrueauWe have some option here: (i) changing nova code for our PoC, (ii) trying to rewrite the query in the SQLAlchemy-dialect, ...15:40
rcherrueauDon't know if you wanna speak about that right now?15:40
irenabI do not think I can contribute much here, so up to you15:41
rcherrueauAnyway, if you have any questions regarding the db part, don't hesitate.15:41
rcherrueauirenab: actually my question was for ad_rien_15:42
ad_rien_sure ?15:42
ad_rien_maybe msimonin can give an overview of AMQP work15:42
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ad_rien_and then we can let the floor for the discussion ?15:43
rcherrueauad_rien_: Do you want me to tell the pro and cons of the different options to implement correlated subqueries, or shall we continue?15:43
msimoninIMHO we should keep the details for later15:44
ad_rien_I propose to go on with the AMQP solution15:44
ad_rien_I think it is better15:44
ad_rien_because this is a first introduction to what we are doing in the SiG15:44
ad_rien_#topic on-going action - AMQP -15:44
*** openstack changes topic to "on-going action - AMQP - (Meeting topic: massively_distributed_clouds)"15:44
rcherrueausounds good to me15:44
ad_rien_please @msimonin can you give a short overview15:44
msimoninSo, porting the state management to cockroach is one action of the group here15:45
msimoninanother action is to look at the message bus15:45
msimoninin the context of openstack services spread accros several sites15:45
ad_rien_WANwide (i.e. not only in terms of scalability but in terms of Wide Area Network)15:45
msimoninthe action is sumed up in the review  :15:46
msimoninI would sum up this by saying we are evaluating both the transport protocol but also the patterns used by the different services15:46
msimoninDon't hesitate to have a look :)15:47
ad_rien_:-) this is a rather effective summary ;)15:47
msimoninJust to make things clearer these are not the only actions of the group :)15:47
ad_rien_so I would like to ask some questions regarding one particular scenario to the DragonFlow folks?15:47
ad_rien_May I ?15:47
ad_rien_irenab:  oanson lihi ?15:48
ad_rien_#topic openDiscussions15:48
*** openstack changes topic to "openDiscussions (Meeting topic: massively_distributed_clouds)"15:48
ad_rien_One one the easiest scenario to operate a fog/edge infrastructure (ie. several sites that are geographically spread)15:48
ad_rien_is to let the control plane in one DC15:48
ad_rien_and then only operate remote compute nodes (so far so good) ?15:49
ad_rien_The question is quite simple, will such a deployment benefit from DragonFlow (i.e. in terms of messages between compute nodes and dragonflow controllers)?15:49
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ad_rien_(in comparison to the vanilla Neutron)15:49
ad_rien_Please do not hesitate to ask me additional questions if I'm not clear enough15:50
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oansonWe think so. Firstly, the controller is very close to switch. This way, it can detect faults more accurately (less false positives/negatives)15:51
ad_rien_(Hi ansmith,  the meeting is going to end if ten minutes ;) I though you were on vacations)15:51
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ad_rien_(we have a few folks from DragonFlow so we changed a bit the agenda)15:51
oansonSecondly, Dragonflow works by pushing policies rather than flows to the nodes. We think this allows for better calculation according to local data.15:51
ansmithno worries, sorry to be late15:52
ad_rien_it would be great to see where will be the dragonflow components in such a deployment15:52
oansonThere are many options.15:52
ad_rien_do you think one of you can prepare a slide to highlight where the components will be deployed (or if there is a pointer to give a look15:52
ad_rien_the goal is to try to mitigate the traffic between DCs15:53
oansonWe definitely can.15:53
oansonWe're working on a PoC for something similar, so it could be beneficial for us as well15:53
ad_rien_(i.e. the global one, i.e. the one where you will find nova, glance,  DBs, …. and the ones where you only have compute nodes)15:53
ad_rien_yes I guess that this is also relevant in the case of a cell deployment15:53
ad_rien_the idea is to mitigate the traffic between the different cells15:53
ad_rien_(so far so good ?)15:54
oansonBut this is a different direction that cockroachdb and ampq15:54
ad_rien_not sure…15:54
oansonNot mitigate the traffic so much as be more fault-tolerant15:54
ad_rien_you can see cockroach as a noSQL system with the capability to write data locally15:54
ad_rien_oanson:  agreed15:55
oansonIt's all right if the message doesn't make it. The database will eventually be updated, and eventually Dragonflow will see the change15:55
ad_rien_we are working on a document to try to identify the pros/cons of different architectural choices15:55
ad_rien_such as the ones you've just highlighted15:55
oansonad_rien_, yes. We're completely pluggable. Writing a cockroachdb driver would be no problem.15:55
msimoninI think we aren't much familiar with dragonflow internals15:56
msimoninoanson: what would be the first documents to read ?15:56
ad_rien_oanson:  do you think you can give us an short overview (a few slides) that we can give a look to15:56
oansonThis is our blog:
oansonI note there's no introduction post. So I'll upload one tomorrow15:57
ad_rien_of the advantages of DragonFlow in a fog/edge deployment such as the one I described (i.E. a master DC with most control plane services and remote compute nodes)?15:57
oansonYes, a few slides is possible.15:57
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ad_rien_it would be definitely awesome15:57
ad_rien_if you can do that for the next meeting (i.e. in two weeks)15:57
oansonThis is a presentation I gave in openstack days Turkey last month:
ad_rien_You can just add the link toward these slides on the pad just one day before so everyone can give it a look15:58
ad_rien_(guys two minutes before the end of the meeting)15:58
msimoninjust recording some links :)15:58
oansonSure. I'll make a more clear presentation as well.15:58
ad_rien_May I propose to continue the discussion during the next meeting15:58
ad_rien_I will add an item in the agenda for sure15:59
ad_rien_so thanks everyone for joining the meeting15:59
ad_rien_if there is something special to discuss15:59
ad_rien_please add it into the pad15:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:59
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 22 15:59:33 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:59
openstackMinutes (text):
jungleboyj#startmeeting cinder16:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 22 16:00:06 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jungleboyj. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'cinder'16:00
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jungleboyjcourtesy ping:  jungleboyj DuncanT diablo_rojo, diablo_rojo_phon, rajinir tbarron xyang xyang1 e0ne gouthamr thingee erlon patrickeast tommylikehu eharney geguileo smcginnis lhx_ lhx__ aspiers jgriffith moshele16:00
jgriffithdamn DST16:00
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geguileohi! o/16:00
jungleboyjjgriffith:  I know what you mean.  The clock in my car was off an hour the other day and it didn't even feel that wrong given all the time changes I have been through.16:01
jungleboyjGive people just another minute and then we can start.16:01
jungleboyjGlad to see this many people here today.  :-)16:02
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jungleboyjOk ...16:03
bswartzit's bug squash day in chinda16:03
bswartzchina even16:03
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jungleboyjbswartz:  That is how Trump pronounces it.  I am sure the spelling has been changed.16:03
jungleboyj#topic Announcements16:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:03
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jungleboyjI have made some updates to the review tracking etherpad given specs that made it through.16:04
jungleboyjAlso have looked a t driver proposals and made some updates to that part of the etherpad16:04
jungleboyjThanks to all who have helped on the spec and driver reviews.16:05
jungleboyjAppreciate continued reviews.16:05
jungleboyjWe are getting very close to Milestone 2 for queens.  Spec and Driver freeze is on 12/416:06
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jungleboyjLooks like specs are awaiting responses for the most part.16:06
jungleboyjSo, if you have a spec or driver you want in, please respond to reviews soon.16:06
jungleboyjAlso wanted to note that I have released os-brick 2.1.016:07
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jungleboyjThe release was needed to get NVMEoF support in place.16:07
jungleboyjThis was needed by Cinder and Nova.16:07
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jungleboyjSo, enjoy the new brick.  :-)16:07
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jungleboyjAnd as bswartz  reminded me.  The bugsmash is going on in China.  Please watch for reviews coming through related to that and try to help get things merged.   tommylikehu  was going to be helping guide us from that perspective.16:08
bswartzjungleboyj: do we have backends with nvmeof support yet?16:09
smcginnis#link Bugsmash etherpad16:09
smcginnisbswartz: There's one being proposed.16:09
jungleboyjbswartz:  Not yet, that is what this is for.16:09
bswartzwhich backend? (I'm just curious)16:09
jungleboyjsmcginnis:  Thanks!16:10
jungleboyjsmcginnis:  Do you know which driver needed it?16:10
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e0nebswartz: AFAK, Mellanox and Intel teams are interested in drivers implementations for NVMe backends16:10
smcginnisThat one. ^^16:11
* smcginnis is looking for link16:11
bswartzI'm pretty sure nothing netapp has supports nvmeof out the front end (yet) although we use it on the backend16:11
bswartzk thx16:11
jungleboyje0ne:  Thanks.16:11
smcginnis#link NVMeF LVM update16:11
bswartzmust go faster!16:11
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jungleboyjOk ... next topic16:12
jungleboyj#topic Cinder Logging/Test Failure Problem Update16:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Cinder Logging/Test Failure Problem Update (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:13
e0nethere are several drivers which can use RDMA and NVMe things16:13
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jungleboyjWanted to give smcginnis an opportunity to let us know where all the check/gate failures are at.16:13
smcginnisSure. So the root cause appears to be in some hand off between stestr and subunit parser.16:14
smcginnisThis wasn't seen until the switch to stestr. But it hasn't been possible to track that down there yet.16:14
smcginnisBut really, our failures were due to some tests outputting a ton of log messages during runs.16:15
smcginnisThat seemed to be the trigger that would hit this condition.16:15
smcginnisSo I started looking at that output and most of it was just junk.16:15
smcginnisI've had a series of patches now cleaning things up. Getting rid of deprecation messages and changing some log levels for things that were not really relevant.16:15
smcginnisSo if you still see anything that fails with the message about "unexpected output blah blah octet-stream", then check the "captured logging" above that.16:16
smcginnisThere would most likely be a test that emitted a bunch of junk.16:17
smcginnisBut hopefully we have things cleaned up enough now that it is not likely anymore.16:17
smcginnisI think I've seen the py35 tests passing pretty normally the last day or so.16:17
smcginnis(forgot to mention, this is only with py35)16:17
smcginnisjungleboyj: I think that's pretty much it for an update.16:17
jungleboyjsmcginnis:  Cool.  Thank you and thank you so much for all your efforts there to clean things up.  Good work!16:18
jungleboyjAnyone have questions around that?16:19
smcginnisThanks, feels good just to have the logs cleaned up.16:19
jgriffithsmcginnis adds to his legacy16:19
jungleboyjjgriffith:  ++  It is quite the legacy.16:19
jungleboyjThanks to mtreinish for his help as well.16:20
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jungleboyjNext topic ...16:20
smcginnis(Hah was not directed at the mtreinish comment - he and jgriffith have been very helpful)16:20
jungleboyj#topic Cinder Content for Contributor Portal16:20
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*** openstack changes topic to "Cinder Content for Contributor Portal (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:20
jungleboyjsmcginnis:  Yeah, that was pretty obvious.  :-)16:21
mtreinishyay, I helped! :)16:21
jungleboyjA bit of background ...16:21
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lhx_jungleboyj, that's really help!16:22
jungleboyjSo, thingee has been working on putting together a new part of the website that will be like a 'Choose your own adventure' for getting started contributing to OpenStack.16:23
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jungleboyjHas resources on who to contact from the foundation, etc.16:23
jungleboyjThe OpenStack Upstream Institute team is planning to use this as a basis for our education as well.16:24
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jungleboyjWe (smcginnis  and I help with that) have a todo between now and Vancouver to work on porting over some of our content from the education into that portal.16:24
jungleboyjSo, there will be additional content going into it, not sure exactly what that will look like yet.16:25
jungleboyjFrom a Cinder standpoint, right now, you just drop into our developer documentation which I feel is not helpful.16:25
jungleboyjSure, everything is there, but if I were a new contributor wanting to get started I would be totally overwhelmed and frustrated by that.16:27
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jungleboyjI am thinking we should create a new landing page for people coming in from the contributor portal.16:27
smcginnisThat would probably be good.16:27
smcginnisWe could have a nice getting started page with just links to more material at a minimum.16:28
jungleboyjTake some of the content from the on-boarding presentation and put it out there in a friendlier format.16:28
smcginnisOr should it point to one of our wiki pages?16:28
jungleboyjWho is the team?  Links to the important information like the Wiki page.16:28
jungleboyjsmcginnis:  Yeah, we could look at that and see what is already in the Wiki.16:29
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jungleboyjBut I would like to have a bit more of a guided setup.16:29
smcginnisjungleboyj: You're probably right though. A nice landing page that references the wiki, etc. would probably be good to have.16:29
jungleboyjI.E. a link to the on-boarding presentation I recorded.16:29
jungleboyjThe picture that shows how Cinder's components work together.16:30
jungleboyjWho the team is.16:30
jungleboyjHow to communicate with us.16:30
jungleboyjAll that good stuff.16:30
smcginnisHow to communicate with us - in pig latin.16:30
jungleboyjigpey atinlay16:31
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jungleboyjAnyone else have thoughts or questions around that?16:31
jungleboyjThinking it will be a new page/set of pages under cinder/doc/source/contributor16:33
smcginnisjungleboyj: Makes sense to me.16:33
jungleboyjsmcginnis:  Cool.  I will start working on that and keep the team updated.16:33
jungleboyjWould like to get as much feedback as possible because what may be useful to me may not be useful to everyone.16:34
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jungleboyjAnyway, I will keep working forward on that.16:35
jungleboyj#topic Open Discussion16:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:35
jungleboyjThat was all I had on the agenda.  Anything for Open Discussion?16:35
jungleboyjAnyone still awake?16:36
smcginnisotnay emlay16:36
* jungleboyj shakes my head16:37
jungleboyjI am going to take silence as a no and wrap things up for today then.16:37
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jungleboyjFor those of you in the US, I hope that you all have a safe and happy Thanksgiving.16:38
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jungleboyjI will be on and off the next couple of days so ping me if you need anything.16:39
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smcginnisjungleboyj: Have a good holiday.16:39
jungleboyjsmcginnis:  Same to you!16:39
e0nesee you next week!16:39
jungleboyjOtherwise I will talk to you all next week!16:39
geguileoHappy Thanksgiving!16:39
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jungleboyjThanks geguileo !16:39
_pewp_jungleboyj (✧∇✧)╯16:39
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"16:40
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 22 16:39:59 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)16:40
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Zarano storyboard meeting this week, though as always, feel free to come by with questions, comments etc in #storyboard!18:58
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notmynameswift team meeting time21:00
notmyname#startmeeting swift21:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Nov 22 21:00:19 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)"21:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'swift'21:00
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notmynamewho's here for the swift team meeting?21:00
* notmyname expects a smaller group today21:00
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mattoliverauGood thing I've been dieting :p21:01
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notmyname#topic catch up, open discussion, office hour, what do we need to discuss?21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "catch up, open discussion, office hour, what do we need to discuss? (Meeting topic: swift)"21:01
notmynameML post this morning about release notes that will likely affect us (don't know how much yet)21:01
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notmynamelooks like some code organization changes that makes some thing easier in the future (one, docs for not-python, should apply to us in the future)21:02
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notmynameI know that many (all) of us at swiftstack have been doing some internal product stuff for a few weeks. we're still at it, but I expect that to be mostly done in the near future21:04
notmyname(prediction, not promise)21:04
notmynamewhat else is going on?21:04
notmynamewhat do you have to bring up this week?21:05
notmynamem_kazuhiro: how's the symlink work going?21:05
mattoliverauWell you've all been missed21:05
notmynamemattoliverau: aww... thanks :-)21:05
m_kazuhironotmyname: Succeeding review cycle. Thank you mattoliverau!21:05
mattoliverauI wrote up notes from what we discussed re task lists in Swift at summit21:05
notmynamelinked from the ideas page?21:06
mattoliverauYeah, I was going to find it, but haven't had coffee and on phone so running slow :p21:06
notmyname or
notmynamemattoliverau: thanks for doing that21:07
notmynamem_kazuhiro: for symlinks, what do you need? are you blocked by anything right now?21:07
m_kazuhironotmyname: I want more reviewers for symlink.21:08
notmynamegot it21:08
acolesmattoliverau: thanks for those notes on tasks21:08
notmynametimburke: acoles: mattoliverau: anything to bring up this week?21:09
notmynamekota_: I see you've been playing with proxyfs21:10
mattoliverauWe still need to figure out what to do with the legacy task lists21:10
kota_notmyname: yup21:10
mattoliverauBut the idea looks cool21:10
notmynamekota_: feel free to sign up for and ask questions on
acolesnotmyname: not really21:10
kota_mattoliverau: good work for the summary for task queue discussion21:10
acolesthanks everyone for keeping things moving while some of us are busy elsewhere21:11
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m_kazuhiromattoliverau: Thank you for your work about summit docs21:11
mattoliverauI've been reviewing and doing what I can. I played with Swift stats during hack week at SUSE. Not 100% sure how useful but was fun21:11
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kota_notmyname: yeah, I'm willing to use it. At first, summarizing my thought, i have to study about file system more :P21:11
kota_i'm preparing some memos for deploying w/o runway, perhaps it may be worth for docs for ProxyFS21:12
notmynamekota_: yep. definitely21:13
notmynameI've been reading some of the summit summaries that people have posted. anyone else found any good ones? any that you've published?21:13
mattoliverauI published a simple email to the team, maybe I should blog it instead21:13
notmyname was pretty interesting, I thought21:14
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kota_the title looks interesting, I'll read it thx, notmyname21:15
notmynamedoes anyone else have anything to discuss? I know it's late or early for some of you21:15
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notmynameI'll be at aws reinvent next week, so I won't be able to run this 2100 meeting21:15
notmyname(and holiday for the rest of this week)21:15
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notmynameI propose we skip next week's meeting21:16
kota_(to be honest, it's a holiday in Japan too)21:16
notmynamethis week or next?21:16
notmynamebah! /kick kota_ m_kazuhiro don't work during a holiday21:17
mattoliverauI assume it'll be extra quite today then in channel21:17
notmynameok ok ok. let's be done then :-)21:17
notmynameand no meeting next week21:17
acolescue for mattoliverau everyday is a holiday in oz :)21:17
mattoliverauI do live on a beach ;)21:17
notmynamehappy holiday to everyone who has one. and happy day-that-ends-in-y to acoles21:17
mattoliverauAnd it's always sunny21:18
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"21:18
openstackMeeting ended Wed Nov 22 21:18:17 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:18
openstackMinutes (text):
clarkbmattoliverau: I dunno I now have first hand experience with it not always being sunny (thats ok the weather was nice)21:18
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mattoliverauclarkb: unless you came to summit and then you got a bunch of rain.. I blame notmyname. The rains came when he arrived :p21:19
notmynameI have proof that "notmyname in australia" doesn't cause rain ;-)21:20
mattoliverauNow forget about the summit rain.. I live so far away and want people to be jealous21:21
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