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| wasmum | moving from kilo to mitaka some quick questions: We are using network nodes on kilo with vrrp | 14:48 |
|---|---|---|
| wasmum | how does this look in mitaka going to linux bridging? Do you still need your network node, I assume yes. How does this effect the controller build, does it just get the neutron server service api installed and you build your network nodes as you would build a controller node (acccording to the docs) without the neutron server service? | 14:50 |
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| erhudy | moving from nova-network to neutron? | 15:53 |
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| wasmum | erhudy: moving from kilo to mitaka neutron networking in kilo with vrrp an gre overlay and going to mitaka linux bridging with a vxlan overlay and vrrp | 16:26 |
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| erhudy | ah, godspeed you, the godaddy people in here have mentioned repeatedly that they want to jettison their OVS stuff in favor of linuxbridge so maybe one of them would have some Top Tips if they've begun moving down that path | 16:39 |
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| mdorman | erhudy: wasmum yeah don’t really have any practical advice at this point. that’s still a “it would be nice to do” project on our end. The biggest challenge for us would be figuring out how to migrate from OVS to linux bridge with minimal impacts to VM connectivity | 16:45 |
| wasmum | mdorman: can you disclose how many workloads you average (instance count)? | 16:46 |
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| wasmum | at this point were under 200 instances so the impact exists but can be mitigated through politics | 16:47 |
| mdorman | like VMs per hypervisor? | 16:47 |
| mdorman | we have on the order of 10s of thousands of instances total | 16:47 |
| wasmum | so moving from ovs to linux bridging is something we need to either commit to now or never. | 16:47 |
| mdorman | yeah now would be the time to do it for sure :) | 16:47 |
| erhudy | <requisite shilling for calico goes here> | 16:47 |
| wasmum | yeah the impact you face would be a resume generating event | 16:48 |
| mdorman | haha | 16:48 |
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| mdorman | taht’s why we’d have to figure out how to do it in a non impactful way, or with a blip of just seconds | 16:48 |
| erhudy | moving baseline network technologies without user impact seems like a sisyphean task | 16:49 |
| mdorman | agreed. i am not sure it will ever happen to be honest | 16:49 |
| wasmum | sounds like an awesome challenge. not sure the grey mass in my head would be able to comprehend how to accomplish that | 16:49 |
| erhudy | i spent about a year researching whether we could jump from nova-network to anything neutron in place before concluding "not without making everyone really mad" | 16:50 |
| wasmum | man how I long for an LTS supported version of openstack | 16:50 |
| erhudy | you and every other operator | 16:50 |
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| wasmum | yeah, how come that falls silent in the foundation meetings? | 16:51 |
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| erhudy | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 16:52 |
| wasmum | upgrades and architectural changes are the main obstacles we face presenting a long term solution in an enterprise | 16:52 |
| erhudy | it's why we were on kilo for a long time after EOL, moved to liberty after it was EOL, and will be moving our existing clusters to mitaka even though it's EOL | 16:53 |
| erhudy | most operators in here probably have similar stories | 16:53 |
| erhudy | if you're willing to pay for canonical support, mitaka was part of the xenial LTS release so in a certain sense mitaka is LTS, but supported by canonical | 16:55 |
| Rockyg | I think the problem with LTS is that the vendors aren't willing to agree on it and make it a priority for their community developers. | 17:02 |
| Rockyg | Learning how to steer community developers is really hard, I think. | 17:04 |
| erhudy | the lack of an official upstream LTS combined with a 6-month dev cycle means the changes arrive at a bewildering pace | 17:04 |
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| Rockyg | Very few devs have ever experienced trying to run/mange a cloud | 17:05 |
| Rockyg | They don't feel that pain. | 17:05 |
| erhudy | well, there are a number of devs in here now and i don't want to craptalk them | 17:06 |
| Rockyg | A number of senior community devs still don't understand why ops don't do continuous deployment | 17:06 |
| erhudy | that particular thought has come to mind, but having been on both sides, as a dev you think about different concerns | 17:07 |
| Rockyg | It's not that they're bad. It's just how do you get them to understand where the code issues intersect the ops pain points. | 17:07 |
| Rockyg | They hear the pain, but they need to be aqble to drill down to specific lines of code. | 17:08 |
| Rockyg | And ops don't drill to the code level. | 17:08 |
| erhudy | devstack is now outlawed, every dev has to build their code on a 200-node cluster that will disintegrate under the volume of RPC messages and DB connections | 17:08 |
| Rockyg | It's the different fram of references and finding the intersectiing places isn't easy. | 17:09 |
| Rockyg | Uh, erhudy is that so they solve your problem first ;-) | 17:09 |
| erhudy | idk, i think that handwaves over the capabilities of ops people, the old stereotype of being a "sysop" who has a pile of tribal knowledge shell scripts doesn't really apply these days | 17:09 |
| Rockyg | No, the ops guys know, the dev guys know, but they work on totally different types of systems | 17:10 |
| erhudy | as somebody with an ops background, i do think that devs need to walk that walk at least once | 17:11 |
| erhudy | in order to understand why your ops guys are telling you what they are, instead of assuming they're stonewalling because lazy/antagonistic | 17:12 |
| Rockyg | And maybe devops has so much code themselves that devs aren't aware of, it would take some time for a dev to review the ops code base to understand the interoperations between the two code bases. | 17:12 |
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| Rockyg | Nah. The devs don't think ops are lazy. It's just two different languages with the same words | 17:12 |
| erhudy | we'll have the chance to have our own west side story week after next | 17:13 |
| erhudy | devs are jets, operators are sharks | 17:13 |
| erhudy | brawl in the convention center, total madness | 17:14 |
| Rockyg | lol | 17:14 |
| Rockyg | I've been promoting a take a dev to work day to the ops folks I know, but it hasn't gained much steam. | 17:15 |
| Rockyg | The OSIC guys actually have a setup where the devs get a week of ops tasks to learn and do before they start contributing to openstack code | 17:16 |
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| Rockyg | also, with the novanet to neutron move, there were plans and work on smooth migration, but it took so long to actually get the code there that lots of that energy and direction got left on the roadside | 17:18 |
| erhudy | re: that, our specific problem was that we use nova-network in multi-host mode, so our clusters never had network nodes | 17:19 |
| erhudy | and DVR wasn't in the right place at the time, and you still need network nodes to do routing for instances without provider network IPs anyway | 17:19 |
| Rockyg | Oh. that. | 17:19 |
| erhudy | calico is what we ended up settling on since it's a private cloud | 17:20 |
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| Rockyg | Uh, yeah. Devs can't code to architectures they don't know about/expect. | 17:20 |
| erhudy | it's not like we hacked multi-host mode into nova-network, it was a flag in nova.conf | 17:21 |
| Rockyg | I bet you could get Neil Gerram of calico to work through some upgrade scenarios with you at the summit. | 17:21 |
| Rockyg | Jerram | 17:21 |
| erhudy | we already decided our existing nova-network clusters will get upgraded to mitaka and then they can live out the rest of their lives in peace | 17:22 |
| Rockyg | Grab him if he's there and and do some brainstorming. He'd be good at that and would even enjoy it. | 17:22 |
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| yankcrime | lol @ erhudy | 18:25 |
| yankcrime | that's basically us right now | 18:26 |
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| yankcrime | moving from one super EOL release to only a vaguely EOL release | 18:26 |
| yankcrime | with a short-term goal to get to mitaka, which is just about to go EOL | 18:26 |
| yankcrime | fml basically | 18:26 |
| erhudy | liberty's been fine for us, we'll jump them up to mitaka and they'll stick around for a few more years | 18:27 |
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| yankcrime | yeah, it's a desire to layer on some of the newer features such as magnum that's prompted us to get a bit more aggressive with upgrades | 18:30 |
| yankcrime | sticking stuff in containers has really helped | 18:30 |
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| klindgren_ | thats what we are going through right now | 18:52 |
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| klindgren_ | moving our liberty install into containers | 18:52 |
| klindgren_ | we also have a number of patches around cellsv1 that makes upgrading "interesting" | 18:52 |
| klindgren_ | especially since nova started moving everything to objects and breaking cells v1 code all over the place | 18:53 |
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| shewless_ | Hello. Does anyone have any good reference material for integrating ceph with openstack. Specifically for using ceph for ephemeral storage (what kind of iops is required) | 19:56 |
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| shewless_ | I'm not looking for "how" to integrate ceph with openstack. I'm moreso looking for the performance requirements of the ceph cluster | 20:28 |
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| zerick | shewless_: I guess Red Hat docs would point on that direction | 20:38 |
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| shewless_ | zerick: thanks.. I'm not seeing anything on that subject | 20:39 |
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| zerick | shewless_: maybe this? http://www3.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/reference-architectures/redhat-cloud-blocks-solution-brief.pdf | 21:43 |
| zerick | and this https://access.redhat.com/sites/default/files/attachments/osp10-rhcs2-v1.pdf | 21:43 |
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