Wednesday, 2017-09-27

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amrithpopcorn, check00:50
amrithcomfy chair, check00:50
amrithtv on00:50
amrithnow let that dims guy show up ...00:50
amrithno popcorn at tc office hours they said ...00:51
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amrithanybody home for tc office hours ?01:01
* fungi is feeling hourly01:01
amrithhello fungi I had my popcorn at the ready, I was just waiting for dims to come by and shoo me off01:01
amrithah, there's dims ...01:02
amrithbut I do have a real question for you ...01:02
amrithlet me go find my paste01:02
fungiwho said no popcorn? there's totally popcorn in my tc office01:02
amrithfungi, the issue I have for the TC is that dims told me that there would be no popcorn allowed at TC office hours01:03
* dims hands amrith some wine01:03
* fungi will need a wine which pairs well with popcorn01:04
* amrith is off booze; put on 10lb at PTG and opendev, have to lose all of it by mid October ... national qualifiers in NH (Oct 13-15)01:04
amrithso my question for the tc office hours had to do with
amriththis is my last act on Trove before handing over the baton01:04
* fungi looks01:05
dimsamrith : can we get the new folks to vote there? since they will be carrying the torch01:06
amrithsure, they did and said they were beginning to work on it; see manoj's comment.01:06
amrith"There are several areas where I believe we can continue to make progress: ..."01:07
amriththe issue is that they 'can' continue to make progress, the intent of the tag is to signal to potential users that the project is in a degraded state.01:07
amrithat least that was the intent of the tag.01:07
dimsright, do they agree to the label?01:07
dims(not sure we need that stamp from them)01:08
amrithwould've been good if dhellmann was here, I'll chat with him tomorrow, that may be more appropriate.01:08
fungieven just a code-review +1 from manoj would satisfy me01:08
amrithdims I can't (shouldn't) speak for them01:08
amrithmanoj posted a coment, he didn't post a score01:08
dimsright fungi01:08
amrithsee 9/24 12:0701:08
fungiyep, i read the comment01:09
dimsright amrith01:09
amrithbring more wine01:09
fungibasically, the way i read that, manoj was in favor of deferring the tag application for now01:10
fungiin which case we could wip/abandon/untopic/whatever that change in the meantime01:10
amrithand revisit at what time, milestone, threshold?01:11
amrithhappy to abandon the change, I'm going to be pushing up a new project anyway01:11
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fungimanoj says "over the next cycle or two"01:14
fungibut ultimately, i think it's up to him or any of his ptl successors to bring itup again01:14
fungis/itup/it up/01:14
amrithOK, so be it. I'll mark my patch -1 and leave it at that.01:16
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fungii'll leave similar comments to the above on it as well01:18
fungithanks for bringing it up, amrith!01:20
fungialso, looking forward to your new project01:20
amrithyes, hoard ...01:22
dimstell me more :)01:22
amrithdbaas, v201:23
amrithper my email to the ML June'ish.01:23
dimsy i remember. cool01:24
amrithdims, here's the ML link
amriththanks dims, fungi01:27
funginot to be confused with the horde ;)01:28
* fungi used to run horde in production... so, so long ago01:41
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openstackgerritRaissa Sarmento proposed openstack/governance master: Add manila-tempest-plugin to manila project
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openstackgerritGraham Hayes proposed openstack/governance master: Add Designate to the top 5 help wanted.
openstackgerritGraham Hayes proposed openstack/governance master: Add Designate to the top 5 help wanted.
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openstackgerritEmilien Macchi proposed openstack/governance master: Remove stable:follows-policy tag from TripleO
openstackgerritGraham Hayes proposed openstack/governance master: Add Designate to the top 5 help wanted.
cdentEmilienM++ on that tripleo change. very pragmatic16:47
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EmilienMcdent: thanks for the feedback! I don't thing tags should hurt projects but rather help. In our case, I haven't seen any value to have it now, except we're more careful in what we backport16:48
EmilienMhe left :)16:48
* EmilienM invokes cdent again16:48
kumarmnmissed the comments earlier. thanks amrith for the workflow-117:01
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EmilienMcdent: you missed my comment but :17:14
EmilienMthanks for the feedback! I don't thing tags should hurt projects but rather help. In our case, I haven't seen any value to have it now, except we're more careful in what we backport17:14
* cdent nods17:14
cdentyeah, I dashed off home from where I was to listening on a webcast meeting and but it has failed to work17:15
EmilienMI think the tag might be re-discussed or at least we need to bring (again) the LTS topic17:15
EmilienMI didn't invented what I wrote in my governance patch, it reflects what is actually happening17:15
EmilienMthere is a strong disconnect between the current requirements to have the tag and the way we want to release TripleO17:16
EmilienMa larger issue is most of users are deploying master -2 release (or even -3 and sometimes older!)17:17
dhellmannI've never been all that sure the tag was a good fit for anything other than service projects anyway17:17
cdentyeah, I think dhellmann is right17:18
EmilienMI would like to understand what resources we need to engage to have LTS support (I know it's a hot topic btw :)17:18
dhellmannmaybe libraries? I don't even know there17:18
dhellmannyeah, I'd stay away from naming anything "LTS"17:18
dhellmannthe first step down that path is always to add more people to the existing stable team17:19
dhellmannand since that never happens, the conversation always dies out17:19
sdaguedhellmann: ++17:19
dhellmannthough I suppose if someone is interested in 2+ releases back they may not care about 1 release back, yet, so I can see why there would be a disconnect17:19
sdaguedhellmann: it's still important from the backport process, because any 2+ back release can't get fixes that don't go through all the intermediate layers, otherwise it's not a long supported branch, it's a fork17:20
dhellmannI'm just saying I can see why it might be harder for someone wanting to work on newton to prioritize working on ocata17:21
dhellmannit's also easy to see why having that continuous chain is more important for service projects that need to have rolling upgrades than it is for deployment tools that don't necessarily work that way17:22
sdaguedhellmann: that's true17:22
EmilienMdhellmann: if I understand correctly, stable-maint team needs more humans17:28
EmilienMdhellmann: I think Red Hat has 3 people unless I'm missing something, right?17:29
dhellmannI would have to ask tonyb for more details about how help is needed. I know that he's the only one reviewing stable releases right now.17:29
dhellmannat least I think he is17:29
dhellmannwe should really write up all of the pre-conditions for extending the stable releases17:30
dhellmannthere's the ongoing infra work to maintain images and tools17:30
dhellmannreviews & releases17:30
dhellmannI don't know where to put a document with that info. We need a community FAQ or something.17:31
EmilienMdhellmann: I'm aware about re: infra needs more humans - and I think some progress is being made on that front (I know dmsimard is joining the efforts) - but on stable-maint, it's unclear to me what is needed17:33
EmilienMdhellmann: I would be happy to push internal discussion to have more hands working on upstream stable-maint - but I think all of this is a lack of visibility in what needs to be done17:34
dhellmannwe should get tonyb involved in that discussion17:34
EmilienMdhellmann: we have an entire downstream team making the delivery working for us, I'm pretty sure they would love to contribute upstream17:35
EmilienMdhellmann: and i'm pretty sure they just don't know how17:35
EmilienMand yes, +1 for having tonyb :D17:35
cdentEmilienM: do you feel that they have time? as I’ve travelled from the hat to mirantis to vmware the common theme is lack of time17:37
EmilienMcdent: nobody has time - it's a matter of prioritization and structure / organization17:37
cdentexactly my point17:37
EmilienMcdent: if these guys can do the same task ONCE, UPSTREAM, we win17:37
EmilienMright now, we're doing it TWICE, upstream AND downstream17:38
cdentso I don’t think it really is a matter of people needing to know what to do17:38
EmilienMcdent: well, you need to get these guys onboarded17:38
cdentit’s about management admitting and accepting it needs to be done17:38
EmilienMwhat do they need to review? where they can learn about policies?17:38
EmilienMcdent: our management already bought the fact we need more upstream involvment but we believe in double hat, where we're engaged in upstream projects as we're engage to make our customers happy (downstream) - and we think it comes with sharing / leveraring workloads17:40
EmilienMLTS would require more server because of more CI jobs? ok so give hardware17:40
EmilienMLTS would require more reviewers on release-maint reviews? mentor people so they become maintainers17:41
* cdent is merely venting some frustration at organizational slowness17:41
EmilienMI think our organization is ready for that, we already share the same vision, we just lack in the "how" right now17:41
* EmilienM will talk with tonyb17:42
cdentgood luck17:43
sdagueEmilienM: you are also probably running into the frustration of the fact that there is little incentive to develop a detailed project plan for people to go down the LTS route, as versions of that were done in the past and it was all wasted effort17:43
EmilienMsdague: most probably17:44
sdagueI think the only way this gets resolved is someone says "I want to make an LTS happen" and starts figuring out what is needed. It's not something where a price tag is going to be handed out to someone.17:44
dimssdague : i have internal folks asking for it, but don't yet want to help with actually doing it18:23
cdentdims do they also believe in spontaneous combustion and santa claus?18:24
EmilienMwell santa cloud exists :P18:24
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dimscdent : my 11 year old still thinks there's santa!!18:24
cdentSanta Cloud!18:25
dimsviva santa cloud :)18:25
* EmilienM realizes it's a thing (google it)18:25
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mtreinishcdent: that sounds like it could be a real town in silicon valley18:55
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smcginnisMissed the LTS discussion, but the thing I keep saying is it needs to be the vendors selling support working together.19:59
smcginnisEach of them is doing their own backporting to older releases and fixing things separately on their own.19:59
cdentI suspect many of the vendors need to hang on to to something to disgtinguish themselves19:59
smcginnisIf they all can work together openly, then they all win.19:59
smcginniscdent: That's the mentality that needs to be overcome.20:00
cdentand in that sense, having a same lts isn’t a win20:00
smcginnisIt's the usual vendor marketing "how do we differentiate ourselves with OpenStack".20:00
cdentIs it true that the number of outright vendors is shrinking? I’m never sure20:01
mtreinishsmcginnis: that was the original motivation for the stable team, but it hasn't worked out that way20:01
cdentI still sometimes wonder if we should even do stable branches at all, upstream20:01
smcginnismtreinish: I think it's been positioned wrong as an upstream problem.20:02
cdentor at least anything more than master +120:02
smcginnisIMO, it's not something to be solved upstream.20:02
cdentnot because I think that is a good idea, but because it’s realistic20:02
mtreinishcdent: right really as long as we have something upgrade test from that's all we really need20:02
cdentthere’s already too much complexity upstream20:02
* mtreinish thinks his last sentence needs at least 2 more reallys in it....20:03
cdentI really like the idea of the corporate collaboration thing, but …20:03
cdentdo you really think so?20:03
cdentreally really?20:03
smcginnisI agree. Upstream should just be N and validating N-1 upgradability.20:03
mtreinishcdent: really really really20:03
smcginnisShoot, brb.20:03
mtreinishsmcginnis: what I meant was the stable team was meant for vendors to come together and do the backporting effort together20:04
mtreinishliterally what you're talking about having, it just all of the vendors stopped working on it really and now it's just a handful of people20:05
cdentearlier EmilienM was suggesting that red hat might be convinced to reinvest20:06
mtreinishcdent: well tonyb is the one mostly keeping stable afloat and he's there now :)20:07
* cdent nods20:07
EmilienMsmcginnis: what do you mean exactly by "just be N and validating N-1 upgradability" ? do you think we should keep only one stable branch?20:09
smcginnisEmilienM: Just that that should be the focus for upstream. Beyond that I would like to see a collaborative effort by the vendors using OpenStack to keep stable/LTS/whatever you want to call it.20:16
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