Thursday, 2017-10-05

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cdentttx: just checking: any progress on the dev satisfaction survey data?11:18
ttxcdent: yes, I hope that erin will send me the data today11:31
cdentgreat, thanks11:32
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smcginnisttx: Did the next PTG space get locked down?14:55
fungitc-members: now commence to be office hour'ing!15:00
smcginnisFor some reason that made me think of "Wonder twin powers - activate!"15:00
ttxhello hello15:00
fungiform of a governing body!15:00
* dtroyer has vanilla coke in hand, all set15:01
ttxSo topic for today -- let's encourage people to run15:01
fungiand not away15:01
smcginnisI've pinged one person I would like to see run.15:02
smcginnisIs it concerning to anyone else that there is only one name so far?15:02
ttxA lot of people wait until the last minute to play15:03
fungialmost everyone (me included) waits until the last possible moment i guess15:03
dtroyeryes, but IIRC there is usually a bit more toward the end of the period15:03
fungii'll use the excuse that this has been a busy week15:03
ttxclassic game theory -- wait until you have most parameters15:03
smcginnisfungi: That's a good excuse for you. :)15:03
ttxI've been reaching out to several people that I think would make great candidates15:04
ttxthey are all "considering it"15:04
ttxbut most also said that they haven't thought about it15:04
ttxso I think reaching out to people and telling them they would be great in the role really helps15:04
fungii'm hoping we get a new candidate out of the discussion we had during the 01:00z office hour on wednesday15:04
* cdent wants a vanilla coke now15:05
* fungi wonders if they have chocolate coke15:05
ttxA lot of people assume it's only for superhumans and have a bit of an imposter complex -- reaching out and encouraging them can go a long way15:05
cdentas discussed earlier in the week, I think there are plenty of people who either don’t care or don’t see the point15:05
ttxespecially if we want members representative of our diversity15:05
cdentso that narrows the playing field a fair bit15:05
ttx(geographic or gender)15:05
cdentI know of someone who is going to run who helps on the diversity side15:06
cdentso that, at least, is good15:06
ttxI don't really fear we'll lack candidates -- if we don't have enough I'm pretty sure a number of people will declare at the last minute if they are pretty sure to get in15:07
mugsieDid the deadline get pushed back? I thought I saw an email15:07
ttxbut still we should reach out15:07
dtroyer2 days IIRC15:07
* ttx checks new deadline15:07
ttxuntil Tuesday night15:08
ttxso 4 more business days15:08
cdentpeople declaring at the last minute because they sure they will get in has to be the antipattern to end all antipatterns!15:08
cdentwe don’t want that15:08
ttxindeed not15:08
fungiaccording to tonyb the updated nomination deadline is october 8, which would be sunday15:09
ttxthat's why we need to encourage peolpe to dclare early15:09
dtroyerI think part of it may be also seeing who else is running, and deciding if they still have a chance15:09
mugsiedtroyer: ++15:09
smcginnisI know there is some of that attitude.15:09
dtroyerwe are still largely a re-elect community, so if the remaining incumbents run, there is likely to only be 2 new members15:10
ttxfungi: hmm he probably got it wrong, Oct 8 was the initial deadline15:10
fungialso he went back to saying we're electing 6 members15:10
persia2017-10-10T23:45 is the new nomination deadline15:11
cmurphyhi o/ so I can provide some feedback here - the idea of being on the TC is not so scary by itself, but my perception is that it's not just about qualifications and encouragement but also a desire to incite change. if I'm moreorless satisfied with the state of the community then I don't have a convincing platform to run on :)15:11
smcginnis has the 10th.15:11
fungicmurphy: sounds like a platform to me!15:11
persiacmurphy: The TC also needs conservatives, or there will be lots of unexpected change15:11
ttxpersia: could you fix with an answer15:11
ttxI think Tony got it wrong (message is corrrect, dates are the old dates)15:12
cdentcmurphy for TC15:12
* persia increases the priority of installing an MUA, and tries to comply15:12
fungipersia: e-mail is so 1990s15:12
ttxpersia: i can do it but that would be weird, not being an official and all15:12
dtroyercmurphy: is that due to a perception that the TC _should_ be the body of radical change?15:12
persiattx: Yes, which is why I'm doing it :)15:13
ttxdtroyer: nom more a question of motivation ?15:13
dtroyerfor an individual, maybe, but as a group?15:13
cmurphydtroyer: it's mostly from the candidacy emails - lots of eloquent announcements of all the things that need to change15:13
smcginnisI did feel like there was some pressure when running, especially with the questions asked of candidates on the ML, that running meant you had some overall agenda for change.15:13
persiacmurphy: Hence the need for balance with eloquent announcements of all the things that need to stay the same :)15:14
dtroyerwe've heard in prior elections a lot of talk about how much needs to change, I don't have a sense of how large that group is, just a loud minority?15:14
ttxSo I think you should have an agenda detailing what you intend to help with15:14
ttxNot necessarily what you would change per se15:14
smcginniscmurphy: Just talk about how bad an idea you think the big tent was. ;)15:14
ttxWe have a vision -- you can help with it without necessarily changing it15:14
cmurphysmcginnis: :P15:14
ttxlots of things to do and we can't all do it all15:15
ttxLike Doug's plaform is not about a change in policy, more of a statement of what he intends to help with15:15
ttx(in the current goals we already have)15:15
fungismcginnis: it does at times feel a bit like i'm running on a platform to abolish gruel from school lunches and make this year's sock hop the best one ever15:15
dtroyerttx: I think that is a good example of what I think we want to portray15:15
smcginnisfungi: That nomination would at least get some attention. :)15:16
ttxI think we have a reasonably good diagnostic of the things we need to work on -- we just need time to work on it15:16
cdentI would guess, cmurphy, that there are a small number of people who pay attention to the emails and the rest of it is name recognition15:17
ttxLike "be more inclusive of developers in China" -- we know the problem and agree we should fix it -- we just need to brainstorm solutions15:17
cmurphycdent: I think that's true15:17
fungii feel much more accountable to the constituents who ask pointed questions at least, and i like being challenged to think about hard topics15:18
mugsiecdent: I think name recognition is an awful lot of it15:18
ttxIt's obviously easier to run on a vocal platform claiming you will fix all the things. Some recent votes in important countries reflect that15:19
ttxThe reality is -- just pushing one significant thing at the TC level (in addition to your usual work) would alerady be good for a 6 month period15:19
dtroyerI think cdent and mugsie are right more than I'd like to admit, but that also shows the path to reaching that position, what ttx said as I was typing this :)15:20
ttxLike if every one of the 13 members would push something significant we'd be in a good spot. So no need to claim you will solve all the issue in the world in 1 year15:20
ttxGovernance takes time, especially to pass non-trivial changes15:21
fungiyeah, that's actually most of the platform i've been noodling on over the past week+... "here's the main thing i plan to work on (whether or not i'm elected)"15:21
sdaguecmurphy: I think that's an interesting insight actually (feeling that only wanting to run if to change things). I think the role of maintaining is probably not highlighted enough.15:21
ttxIt's really all about adapting what we have to changing circumstances, more than changing things15:22
fungisdague: we'd need to come up with a more exciting way of describing those aspects ;)15:22
ttxLike, what do we need to change to be more palatable to part-time contributors15:22
smcginnisI think there's more of a general shift to more maintaining instead of major changes in general.15:22
ttx(plug: join my forum session in Sydney if interested in discussing that !)15:23
fungii'll be there with bells on15:23
fungi(if i can find any bells, otherwise i'll just be there)15:23
* smcginnis makes note to bring bells for fungi 15:24
cdentfungi you should always carry bells, but damped15:24
ttxhmm that calls for some gimpbombing15:24
ttxfungi will bells on15:25
ttxwith* sigh15:25
* ttx glances quickly to the tracker15:26
ttxMasakari still missing a couple of votes to pass, no objection so far15:26
ttxAdjustments to Infra contributors top-5 entry still missing one vote15:27
ttxThe other ones look slightly further away15:27
ttxLike the discussion on upgrade tags should wait for the ML thread to develop15:28
ttxcdent: I think that beyond the perception that the TC doesn't achieve that much, there are less people overall invoved with OpenStack who care about open source project governance15:29
ttxIt's a bit of a special interest15:29
ttxLike collecting stamps15:29
cdentyes, sure15:29
mugsiettx: do you think that is a side effect of so many people being paid to work on OpenStack full time?15:29
ttxI like it, but I understand it's not everyone's thing15:30
ttxmugsie: no.15:30
mugsieOr paidnl to do any work on OpenStack, Vs people who do it in free time15:30
ttxmugsie: it's just that more people get involved in open source as part of their job rather than because that's their choice. Being paid to do it as little relevance15:31
ttxLike, as open source conquers the world, theer will be more people working on it that are not interested in the social aspects of it15:32
ttxJust see that GitHub is where most development happens those days15:32
ttxThere is a contradiction there, but most people don't see it anymore15:32
ttxQuestions of license or governance are seen as extra weight to carry, not as the basis for the work15:33
persiaThere are lots of "open source jobs" that involve just writing code, and lots that involve only governance (and some that do both).  People tend to strive to be paid to do the thing they like to do.15:33
mugsieyeah, I meant "being paid" more as "work told me to come contribute code"15:33
ttxmugsie: then yes. More people end up working on open source because it's everywhere now15:33
fungieven in the early days, there were more people who were interested in building/fixing things than in the licensing/governance/community/collaboration aspects15:34
ttxfungi: sure, but the proprotion was healthier15:34
fungi(early days of free software at large, i mean)15:34
fungibut yes, it is skewing further15:34
funginot just for openstack, though we might be a bit ahead of the curve15:34
ttxSo it's only natural that people interested in governance is declining, especially once they understand you don't derive that much power from the position15:35
persiaNote that those of us who believe everyone runs open source may be living in a bubble: there are others who claim use of open source is decreasing (e.g. )15:35
fungithough one modern shift has been that people with specific interests in community governance are finding working in free software a rewarding experience, rather than the way it used to happen where governance was thrust upon people who maybe had little interest in it but saw it needed to get handled by somebody15:36
sdaguepersia: that was oracle trying to win a bit though, right?15:36
* ttx opens Oracle propaganda15:37
persiasdague: Rather, not to be excluded from future bids, but kinda, yeah15:37
* dtroyer is glad to not have landed there a few years ago15:37
fungicertainly, proprietary software vendors are going to want to paint a rosy picture of their landscape, as are people writing free software15:38
sdaguein my experience, open governance is a hotter issue when it comes to companies making large investments in a community that their competitors are also in. Because there needs to be a safety net for that investment.15:38
fungiso not at all surprising15:38
sdagueAnd, it's directly in reaction to things that happened before, like Xen's project struction15:38
ttxI can see how our successes in keeping politics out of the governance of the project (and making it pretty consensual and neutral) is discouraging some from applying15:39
persiasdague: Some of my clients make the counterargument: they are not willing to rely on open source software if they believe it is investment funded vs. neutrally governed.15:39
persiattx: Hrm?  How is governance not almost entirely politics?15:39
ttxpersia: bad terminology. I mean corporate interest tactical games15:40
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fungiyeah, so "investment funded" to use persia's terminology15:40
ttxWe managed to keep company hats at the door pretty successfully15:40
ttxeven if some others like to paint us as corporate-driven (confusing the TC with the BoD)15:41
persiattx: There's lots of corporate interest tactical games in openstack, but yes, a good job has been done in providing a space for that which does not impact the ability for others to develop code whilst ignoring the games.  This is a compliment to the goernance structure.15:41
ttxIt's also not happening at the TC level, so getting a member elected to the TC is not seen as a part of the tactical game15:42
persiaSadly, that isn't universally true, although most of the individuals who could be elected would not run when prodded for those reasons.15:43
cdentIt might also be a comment on the lack of teeth that the TC has. We can’t, as a group, engage in much gerrymandering and otherwise, because there is little that we actually control15:43
* persia has had an unfortunately large number of conversations involving dicussions of how it isn't appropriate to buy the TC, either by offering all current members large salaries or by stuffing ballots to put in a new panel15:43
cdentthe main power is saying yes or no to inclusion15:43
cdentwhich has little power over incumbent projects15:43
ttxI'' draft something with dhellmann on adding "champions" or cross-project leaders or workgroup leads as a top-5 thing15:44
ttxwe need more of those and they can be a hard sell within sponsor organizations15:44
persiacdent: The TC controls the means by which projects self-govern.  The requirements for PTLs and delegates, etc.  This, if wielded crudely, could translate to much apparent power.  The current subtle influence seems to be generating lots of code that everyone can use.15:45
fungicdent: i would argue our main power is the one we use the least (and for good reason): the ability to remove projects15:45
dtroyerI think we have a bit more power (beyond removal) than most realize, but historically that has not been needed.15:45
cdentfungi: if the most powerful tool in the chest is too dangerous to use, is it even a tool?15:46
fungicdent: something along the lines of deterrent defense15:46
dtroyercdent: maybe it hasn't been needed because deterrence is effective?15:46
ttxcdent: ok, I have your data, let me upload it somewhere15:46
* ttx quickly checks for the absence of personal identifiers15:47
* dims reads scroll back15:47
ttxIt's a XLSX from surveymonkey with the two questions you asked15:48
smcginnisStop choosing stupid sessions. :D15:49
ttxSome people answered the question in context of the PTG and responded "less train"15:49
* dims spots something that looks like a line from mriedem :)15:50
fungiwe did have an unanticipated railroad theme to the denver ptg, akin to our floatplane theme for the first vancouver summit15:50
fungithough perhaps a bit more irritating15:50
ttxdims: "Fire the Nova core team" ?15:50
dimsLOL. "I can only talk about Nova here..."15:51
ttxThe same person who said "Fire the Nova core team" said "Bring back the Design Summit" so you all know it can't be me15:51
fungitechnically the tc can't fire a core reviewer team, but we _can_ install a replacement ptl who agrees to do that15:51
fungis/fire/dissolve and replace/15:52
smcginnisfungi: mriedeman might be OK with that, depending when you ask. :)15:52
persiafungi: Alternately, drop the project and add a new one to provide that function, with a new team.15:52
dimssmcginnis : indeed15:52
fungipersia: yep15:52
fungii think we've all been sucked into reading survey responses15:57
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* johnthetubaguy nods15:57
EmilienMttx: I'm late (I was in meetings)15:59
EmilienMttx: but I'm still considering it15:59
EmilienMI'm also waiting a little bit to see who is stepping up16:00
EmilienMI like to think there would be new voices but if that's not the case I would send my candidacy right away (already prepared)16:00
sdagueEmilienM: I think that for folks paying attention, they all assume that incumbents are running if they don't say they aren't16:01
ttxI mean yes16:01
ttxOther random data from the survey:16:02
EmilienMsdague: good point16:02
ttxPlease rate how essential the PTG event is to the following:16:02
ttxYour personal productivity for the rest of the cycle: 3.94/516:02
ttxThe success of the OpenStack open source project: 4.28/516:02
ttxThe success of your organization: 3.68/516:02
pabelangercmurphy: I completely agree, running on change vs nothing to change16:03
ttxIf the March 2018 PTG is located in Europe, will you be able to attend?16:03
ttxYes 52%16:03
ttxMaybe 37%16:03
ttxNo 6%16:03
ttxAll that is pretty good16:04
ttxconsidering we polled attendees at the US event16:04
smcginnisAnd if it's where it's been mentioned, it's fairly low cost. Or could be worse.16:05
smcginnispersia: That would be fitting.16:05
* fungi gets his snowshoes ready16:05
ttxOslo is pretty expensive16:06
ttxTo give you an idea the car model that is sold the most there is the Tesla S16:06
persiaOslo is inappropriate for PTG.  Very expensive.  Tricky travel.  Extremely high cost of alcohol.16:06
smcginnisBut the name!16:06
persiaI apologise if my humour failed to come over: it was in response to "could be worse."16:07
ttxpersia: oooooh16:07
EmilienMsdague, ttx: to be fully transparent, the only reasons why I still wonder if I should run (and I've been thinking about it for weeks) is 1) when I see other TC members, I haven't been able to commit as much as they do, probably because I can't spend the same time as they probably do and 2) because I believe in rotations16:08
EmilienMsdague, ttx: I really enjoyed it and if I'm candidate again, I can only commit on what I'm already doing, governance reviews and community building (how I can)16:09
ttxEmilienM: that's fair. I wouldn't obsess too much on how much is achieved. However I would encourage you to set at least one thing you'd work on during your mandate16:10
ttxeven if that's just participating in brainstorming solution around trust16:10
ttxOn trusting and assuming good faith, been reading a thought-provoking piece I wanted to point Emilien and flaper87 to16:11
persiaEmilienM: Even if you just run on a platform of trying to figure out how to cause more rotation in TC membership, that would be valuable16:11
ttxI'm still reading it, but i think it has fair counterpoints. they echo what anteaya was saying at some point16:12
ttxflaper87, EmilienM:
ttx(now with proper highlighting)16:13
EmilienMit's good feedback, thanks16:13
fungiEmilienM: if it helps at all, i feel like i've completely failed to keep up with governance reviewing responsibilities in a timely manner and providing insightful comments on more than a scant handful. but i assume it's probably just my personal perception and a sign i'm being hard on myself unnecessarily16:13
EmilienMI've heard a fungi can be busy as well :D16:14
ttxflaper87, EmilienM: I'm not saying I agree, and am still wrapping my head around it, but it's a useful read16:14
fungiEmilienM: well, i have hopes that no longer being a ptl means i can devote more time to tc level governance (whether or not i'm reelected to a tc seat)16:15
sdaguemaybe open, and hot buttoned question, did that feel more true after the meeting went away?16:17
cdentsdague: which "that"?16:17
sdaguebecause, as much as the meeting going away simplified my Tuesdays, which are the most family time conflicting days that I have, I also do feel the loss of cadence there to anchor my brain into governance reviews16:18
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sdaguecdent: feeling like not doing the appropriate amount of reviewing things in the gov repo16:18
cdentah, okay, yeah16:19
cdentI have a similar feeling, but not about reviewing. I think I still manage to get to that fairly regularly, but there’s some kind of loss of formality in discussions?16:20
cdentaction items harder to find or something like that16:20
fungisdague: i felt like i wasn't doing the appropriate amount of reviewing before we stopped the meeting too16:24
fungiso no appreciable change for mwe16:24
sdaguefungi: cool, good to know16:25
fungiat least i don't feel like dropping the meeting made it any worse16:25
fungimay have made it slightly better, but again it's a matter of personal perception16:25
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* cdent considers ways to group these survey respones16:37
cdentmore people than I would have predicted expressing desire to see the design summit come back16:50
dtroyerit would be interesting to know a bit more of the demographics of those folk… ie, how many are primary or core contributors to projects?16:51
dtroyerie, I would expect more part-time contributors to have that sentiment16:52
cdentdunno, I’ve been basically a full time contributor since day one and I’ve struggled to get to events more often than not16:54
sdagueit is the problem of survey's vs. interviews16:56
fungiand also a bit of selection bias on who feels strongly enough about what to provide freeform feedback... usually it's going to be people with negative sentiments or unpopular ideas who feel most compelled to fill in that section17:03
fungimainly because they have trouble finding a voice in the crowd, and this gives them an outlet17:04
fungii'm actually surprised by the number of positive responses to those questions17:04
persiaIn addition to the amount of time the folk contribute, it is interesting to ask if they have duties that involve things other than code.  Some of the most vocal complainants were folk who could not attend design sessions because they needed to present other sessions or meet with key customers.17:20
persiaAlso, lack of access to Expo is something some folk have mentioned: less swag, less free dinners and drinks (not that the last PTG was particularly short on the latter).17:21
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fungiyeah, i think i picked up dinner for a few people on friday, but aside from that i don't recall paying for a meal all week17:32
fungigranted, i also don't eat much/often, so the lunches would have been enough for me to get by on if necessary. i'm aware i'm an atypical case17:35
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cdentttx: “Telling people to “assume good intent” sends a message about whose feelings you plan to center when an issue arises in your community.” and the points leading up to it nail it18:06
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openstackgerritMonty Taylor proposed openstack/governance master: Update PTI around documentation jobs
openstackgerritMonty Taylor proposed openstack/governance master: Add mention of releasenotes to the PTI
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smcginnisEmilienM: ++19:15
EmilienMsmcginnis: thanks :)19:18
cdentyeah, solid EmilienM19:26
EmilienMcdent: thanks for your support ;-)19:26
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fungiyay more candidates!20:05
fungii need to hurry up and finish writing mine20:05
cdentI’m not sure about that EmilienM person.20:05
cdentsomething fishy about them20:06
fungiit's because he moved to an island20:06
fungiisland folk are all fishy20:06
fungi<- island folk20:06
smcginnisThat was bad.20:13
smcginnisI love it.20:14
cdentI live in spitting distance of the sea, but on a very large island, does that make me fishy?20:15
fungidoes it _smell_ fishy where you live? certainly does here when the wind is blowing in the right direction20:29
fungiclose enough then20:29
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thingeemtreinish: hey I was looking, apologies if I missed it, for an update on the templest plugin split for queens community-wide goal.21:49
thingeeI've just gone through lbragstad's update. Half way through! Half way through!21:50
mtreinishthingee: chadankumar has been driving that effort. I said I'd shadow him, but I haven't been doing such a good job of that :/21:50
mtreinishthingee: I know he was pushing out a ton of patches to projects to get that done, not sure how far along it is though21:50
* lbragstad hands thingee a water bottle and a sweat towel21:51
mtreinishthingee: I'll ask him to send out an email update on it21:51
thingeemtreinish: yes perfect sounds good! I do see some effort happening :)
thingeemtreinish: oh sorry missed that Chandan is now marked as championing it in the doc. Thanks!21:57
mtreinishthingee: fwiw, I have a feeling things on that are gonna get kinda stuck by zuul v3. It involes changing a lot of job definitions22:00
thingeemtreinish: can you explain more, and can we move this to #openstack-infra?22:01
thingeemtreinish: if you have time to discuss22:02
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mtreinishthingee: there's not really that much to discuss, it's just all the job definitions have to be changed to use the new split out repo22:04
mtreinishand with the project-config soft freeze that's a lot of churn I don't think will get through22:04
mtreinishand there are a lot of existing changes up that will need to add the zuul v3 config on to them22:04
mtreinishand I think people are still confused by that22:05
mtreinishthingee: we can move it to -infra if you'd like22:05
thingeemtreinish: I would at least like the infra team to be aware that the community-wide goal is not going to happen because of the freeze.22:07
thingeeor reply to the thread about the soft freeze. I'm guessing that was from one of the update emails from mordred or clarkb22:07
mtreinishthingee: it was:
thingeemtreinish: it seems like mordred communicated that it can be done, just has to be applied to v2 and v3. They're not running the migration script22:09
mtreinishyeah, which is where I think people get lost22:10
mtreinishit's just my feeling though22:10
mtreinishand to be fair I don't think it's a blocker yet (except for the open reviews on the topic which have -1s for missing zuul v3)22:11
mtreinishit's just another wrinkle in making forward progress22:11
mordredwrinkles wrinkles everywhere22:12
thingeemtreinish: ack22:12
thingeemtreinish: ok so chandankumar should follow up on that thread from mordred about this being a potential blocker. I just want communication and people to be aware :)22:14
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