Wednesday, 2017-10-04

fungitc-members: commence office hour01:00
thingeefungi: o/01:11
thingeeI would like to point out to the TC that the simplification ptg recap is available
thingeeMy thought is to abandon the old thread and instead focus on those three (still broad) areas.01:15
thingeeI can at least summarize the old thread.01:16
flwang1thingee: did you get an answer for question "what's the current progress of the constellations effort? Was just noticing it in the tc activity email." ?01:16
fungiflwang1: there was some discussion of it during yesterday's office hour in here01:19
flwang1fungi: cool, i will scroll up to read the log01:20
fungiyeah, i guess it was before the office hour01:22
flwang1thingee: thanks a lot01:24
flwang1I'm really interested in where the 'constellations‘ is going to as the PTL of Zaqar01:25
flwang1I'm really keen to know the roadmap from TC against services out of the core01:26
dtroyerI have proposed a forum session for Sydney on this, hopefully we will have a good summary of where things stand for that01:27
dtroyerflwang1: I do not think the TC members see this as an activity that we are pushing down to the projects or community, it is a community effort to provide some clarity to common use cases for OpenStack01:27
dimsdtroyer : fungi : thingee : i went to see the workshop by the Massachusetts open cloud folks - - some really enthusiastic people and projects. will forward links to slides when they make it available. lot of the stuff is using OpenStack projects01:28
dimsfungi : initiated an email to those folks for getting some cloud resources for our infra01:28
fungidims: also thanks for the infra intro to the moc folk!01:28
fungiyeah, that01:28
flwang1dtroyer: great, I'm happy to see we have a session about this01:29
dtroyerflwang1: for a project like zaqar, I think you have to get together that sort of thing highlighting use cases for your project.  I think there are a number of projects that lack common knowledge of where they fit in toreal world applications01:29
dimsfound someone doing horizon and another one doing os-profiler, so setting up intros etc to get more folks into the fold01:29
flwang1dtroyer: yep, that's why I'm trying to resolve/figure out, for those projects, how can we help them01:32
flwang1projects like nova, neutron, glance have got a lot adoption, but the others are not, so what i'm trying to figure out is, from the project side, what help we need? from the TC/community side, what help they can provide.01:33
flwang1and unfortunately, this may be related to the questions: what's openstack and whom we're building software/service for? only ops or we do also want to serve services for developers01:34
dimsgood points01:41
flwang1though I agree TC is most like a governance group, not a real technical committee like its name01:44
flwang1however, from the community side, there are expections related to those "technical" problems01:45
fungito compare to other communities i'm familiar with, our technical committee does provide a lot more proactive guidance rather than merely acting as an arbitrating body01:45
flwang1just like cdent said "I’ve had a few people, when approached about their thoughts about the pending elections, express that they don’t think the TC does anything useful"01:45
flwang1fungi: yes01:45
flwang1back to the ages we have incubating process and stackforge, Zaqar was reviewed 3 times to be an 'integrated' projects01:47
flwang1at that stage, we can see some active support for projects like Zaqar, but now, TBH, I can't get any sunshine from TC, so I have to expose myself here to get some light ;)01:48
dtroyerflwang1: What kind of support do you mean from the incubation stage? What kind of support are you expecting from the TC?01:49
fungiwell, the technical committee isn't a marketing team... what sort of sunshine are you looking for?01:49
flwang1something i said could be wrong because that's only from my narrow angle01:49
flwang1I can't give a detailed list, but basically, something like I mentioned above, if openstack is still caring about the projects/services outside the core01:51
flwang1because we have seen many discussion in community to ask openstack only focus on IaaS, but unfortunately, I didn't see conclusion01:52
fungiwe have added a bunch of those, so i would say we care enough not to turn away people who want to collaborate on relevant use cases01:53
flwang1 fungi: yep, i can see that01:54
fungithe project map that ttx has been working on attempts to classify lots of kinds of projects in openstack outside the central iaas sphere01:55
fungiand show how the relate to each other01:55
fungier, how they relate to each other01:56
flwang1yep, that's the area I'm really interested in01:56
dtroyerflwang1: I think part of the differences in understanding that you have may be that being an official project opens the door to services being provided from (somewhere) that in actuality do not exist.  like fungi said, we do not do marketing things.  Projects need to be in charge of their own 'marketing' and 'promotion' for educating the community and potential deployers and consumers about the project.01:56
fungithough it sounds like maybe one concern is that the community/ecosystem at large is suggesting openstack should just focus on iaas use cases, and that it doesn't seem the tc as a collective body has done much to "defend" non-iaas projects from that?01:57
flwang1I totally understand that, but another typical chicken-egg problem in OpenStack community is the soft/hard dependency issue01:57
dtroyerThere are things like that map, the constellations, etc. that are part of that, but if an app dev does not now how or why she might use Zaqar then they will not consider it.  There are tools that can help, such as the various sites, but in the end the projects need to ensure that they know what use cases they are solving, and to make sure everyone else knows that too01:57
flwang1generally, i agree what you said. TC is not a marketing team, but I do still think TC can play an active role to integrate the projects/services with in openstack world02:00
flwang1e.g. the Barbican case, which is a good services for sure, and it's dying because losing contributor and adoption.02:01
dtroyerflwang1: are you saying that the TC has the ability to make any project core if it were to decide to do so?  Since 'core' keeps coming up it seems like that distinction is part of the issue02:02
dtroyeryes, Barbican is one instance where that is possible, due to the technical nature of the project implementation02:02
flwang1dtroyer: no, i mean, TC could help integration02:02
dtroyercan you give me an example?  technical integration?  or social integration?02:03
flwang1technical integration02:03
fungithe only way the tc has really been able to "help integration" in the past is when tc members as individual developers submit patches to implement that sort of integration02:03
fungiit's not generally something we can legislate into existence02:03
dtroyerand in fungi's example there, that is not because of them happening to hold a TC seat at the time02:04
flwang1fungi: yep, agree, because we're open source, so we can't force a project to integrate with another project, is it?02:04
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dtroyernot because of open source, but because of the degree of autonomy that projects do have.  it is a balance02:04
fungiflwang1: pretty much, the only significant power we wield as a governing body is to be able to declare a project "not openstack" if they don't do something we think they should02:05
dtroyerbetween the needs of the project and the needs of the community as a whole02:05
flwang1sorry, I mean "open source", you got my point02:05
fungireal power to bring about change like that comes from individuals, not from "the tc" per se02:06
dtroyerit does happen that the TC is usually made up of individuals who already have some amount of that power02:07
fungiit's one of the things i struggle with writing my platform for technical elections like the upcoming tc election... the things i've accomplished have been as an individual and i would have done them whether i had been a tc member or not02:08
flwang1fungi: dtroyer: thanks for all the comments, sorry to make so much noise here because I'm trying to get a better understanding about TC02:08
flwang1though I have been working for openstack for more than 5 years :D02:09
fungiflwang1: please don't apologize! you bring up very good points and it's all helpful feedback02:09
dtroyerflwang1: my pleasure, this helps me (us) also understand the concerns and thoughts of those in the community that we do not talk to regularly otherwise02:10
fungiand i value every opportunity i have to engage with others in the community on governance topics. there aren't enough people who have strong enough feelings about such things02:10
flwang1I may run for TC for Queens so I need some ideas ;)02:10
fungiflwang1: please do run! and if you don't get elected run again02:10
dtroyerflwang1: please seriously consider it02:11
flwang1I'm Chinese and now live in NZ, maybe you folks need some geek from a different timzone02:11
fungiwe absolutely do02:11
fungipeople in timezones like yours are why we added an office hour at this time02:12
flwang1yep, I love the office hour :)02:12
dtroyerwe do, we have had members from the southern hemisphere before, hopefully now wihtout the meeting schedule it will be easier on those of you who work while we sleep :)02:12
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fungiwe need more participation from more parts of the world and a greater variety of cultures and technical backgrounds02:12
flwang1besides, I work for a public cloud, which miss some love recently in openstack world02:12
flwang1though you can argue that point02:12
fungiyes, more representatives from public clouds would be great too02:13
dtroyerto me that is also an important perspective to bring02:13
fungiopenstack is actually well-represented in the public cloud space, just not in the usa so a lot of the people living there don't realize that02:14
flwang1another well known thing is there are more investment for openstack from China companies, I think this is the area I can help02:14
flwang1to bridge China/APAC user community and the openstack community02:15
fungiagreed, we've been asking all our more recent chinese member companies to encourage their employees to consider leadership roles within the community02:15
dtroyeragreed.  and if you run or not, or are elected or not, please continue to work in that area02:15
flwang1dtroyer: sure thing02:16
dtroyeras we have said before, the TC is really just those who get an official vote, much of the work and discussion happens with folk who make the effort to be a part of it directly02:16
dtroyerand with that, I must sign off for the night, some things to do upstairs before bed02:17
fungihave a good night dtroyer, thanks!02:17
flwang1dtroyer: good night, thanks for all the comments/suggestions02:17
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cdentttx: do you know if the survey data from the ptg has been assembled yet?10:57
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ttxit's been assembled yes, pretty good support for the event overall11:40
ttxAttendees rated the event essential to the success of the OpenStack open source project at an average of 4.28 stars11:41
ttxwe are working on getting the contract signed for the PTG3 venue this week, ideally will be able to announce early next week11:42
ttxToying with the idea of placing the TC+Board+UC thing on the Friday rather than on the Sunday11:43
ttxcdent: ^11:43
cdentttx: the particular data I’m after are the questions we decided to add about developer satisfaction while at the board meeting11:44
cdentI think having the board thing on friday is not a great idea, at least not for me: nova stuff takes up all three days11:44
ttxah, good point, I'll try to get raw data for you on that11:44
smcginnisI think I prefer the TC+Board+UC before the PTG to have those discussions in mind for the rest of the week.12:05
smcginnisBut that could also go the other way of having the weeks topics in mind for the board.12:05
smcginnisTwo meetings. :)12:05
cdentwith meetings at the start and end of each day to discuss those meetings12:05
cdentand required overnight reading12:05
persiaI believe having the board meeting before the PTG gives the board more influence over the developer community, whice is probably a good thing in terms of continued funding.  Having it afterwards feels like a report, and it is more difficult to influence direction remotely (especially when everyone is exhausted).12:09
cdentin theory that ought to be true, but the connections this last time felt quite tenuous12:11
smcginnispersia: I think you're right that it has the risk of ending up being just an end-of-week report of activities vs actually thinking how we would want to influence things.12:14
persiacdent: Yes.  Those of us attending the board meeting should perhaps have put together a plan early on the Monday to make the connections less tenuous.12:15
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cdentthingee: did you get a chance to send the planned email on the neutron driver sitaution, and if so did I miss it? If not, would you like me to get it (later today)?14:28
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thingeecdent: I was hoping to send something out yesterday but the simplification wrap up and some contributor portal work got in the way. Please send something today please.15:12
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openstackgerritHongbin Lu proposed openstack/governance master: Change email address of Zun PTL
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cdentthingee: done17:44
thingeecdent: thank you17:56
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