Wednesday, 2017-10-11

fungii certainly think competing with vsphere, aws, azure, et cetera is in scope for openstack, but i also am quite certain it's delusional to believe those aren't built on many pieces of software designed by lots of different teams with varying levels of cooperation/competition (they just get the benefit of hiding all those warts behind a somewhat singular public veneer)00:00
smcginnisfungi: I can say from experience that that is totally true.00:16
fungisome people are frightened by seeing how the sausage is made00:17
smcginnisWelcome to the slaughterhouse. :)00:18
fungitc-members: (and anyone else around) let's make some sausage!01:00
* fungi is partial to andouille01:00
fungiEmilienM: just the two of us so far, i guess01:02
EmilienMI'm quite surprised and also very happy to see so much diversity in the TC candidates, tbh01:03
fungiyes, i'm thrilled beyond words01:03
fungidiversity aside, i'm just thrilled we actually got >2x as many candidates as seats01:04
EmilienMyeah :D01:06
fungii think this may be a first for candidate turn-out. now if we can just get a similar increase in voter turn-out01:08
fungialso, even if most/all incumbents get reelected, we're turning over quite a few empty seats this time i think?01:10
* fungi counts them01:10
fungi3 incumbents for 6 seats01:11
fungiso at least half of the seats we fill this time will be with first-time tc members01:12
EmilienMI'm about to cook something here, not much activity. I'll be back in a few01:16
fungithere are a few post jobs still queued for the elections site publication, but counting the candidacies which were approved in gerrit i think we have 16 candidates01:20
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persiaIndeed, there were 16 candidates nominated01:25
fungithanks for confirming! (and for officiating in general)01:27
fungihowdy amrith!01:31
amrithhowdy fungi01:31
amrithslept through my alarm clock01:31
amrithnice to see so many candidates for the election01:31
* fungi just set an alarm for 6am01:32
funginot looking forward to getting up before sunrise, but zuul commands me01:32
amrith6am eh ... hmm, no01:32
fungiwe want to beat the east-coast americas activity rush with the cutover01:33
amrithwe have 16 candidates, and then we have dims :)01:34
* fungi remembers a time when he would get up at 6am every day for his job, back when he had a commute longer that 20 feet01:34
fungier, longer than01:34
persiaWhen I am in a sufficiently western timezone, I generally enjoy getting up before 6am, as the gentle light is nice for working, and the heat of the day is a good incentive to go outside afterwards.01:35
fungiit's tempting. i keep thinking i should take up fishing before work some mornings, in which case maybe i'd have more of an incentive to be up that early01:39
fungiclarkb says i should just take a netbook out on the dock and fish _while_ i work... my wireless does reach that far but i'm skeptical that would work out like it sounds01:40
fungimore likely i'd upend the computer into the bay01:40
persiaA paper notebook for ideas that come from fishing is probably wiser, indeed :)01:44
fungifer sure01:47
fungiand this concludes our second office hour of the week; catch us again in here at 15:00 utc on thursday for more lovable tc antics02:00
fungiand with that, bed calls. tomorrow morning belongs to zuul02:04
amrithg'night dear tc members ... till tomorrow then02:04
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andreaftonyb, persia it looks like the publish job for my candidacy went lost, so my name is not showing up in
persiaandreaf: Yes.  Apologies.  Your name *will* be on the ballot.  I'll look into how to get it on the docs page now.17:08
andreafpersia: thanks :)17:09
andreafpersia: if a propose a foobar update on the candidacy file will re-trigger publish, but there may be a nicer way17:10
persiaDon't worry about that.  If we end up needing a meaningless update, I can do that.  My greater worry is either A) that something is wrong with the job, or B) that more things were missed during the timeframe that didn't publish.17:11
persia suggests the right thing *should* have happened, which resolves (A) :)17:12
persiaandreaf: Update: Unfortunately (B) applies.  The underlying issue that caused is currently being resolved, and we can likely run a publish update before the official start of the campaign period.17:29
persiaAgain, apologies that you ended up getting caught.17:29
pabelangerYah, should have that fixed today. We can always requeue the post jobs if needed manually too17:30
persiapabelanger: I'm happy to push through a dummy change if that makes your life easier.  Either way.17:30
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harlowjacdent oh hi, i found the right channel18:25
harlowjais this where the cool people are18:25
harlowjadid i finds the cools?18:25
SamYapleand im here too harlowja18:25
harlowjahi cool people18:25
cdentharlowja: oh, I’m sorry, I’m not sure you’re welcome here. Everyone else is, but maybe not you.18:40
* cdent checks the secret rule book18:42
cdentoh, actually you _are_ allowed18:42
harlowjamaybe someday i'll be cool, lol18:43
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openstackgerritMatt McEuen proposed openstack/governance master: OpenStack-Helm - Helm charts for OpenStack
harlowjaA question I've wondered, is the TC doing any outreach to various companies (or just random folks) that have engineers committed to openstack? I think the foundation does this, but seems like the TC could also (and things learned might be useful)18:57
harlowja^ maybe thats something that could like be done?18:57
cdentharlowja: there’s been a lot of talk lately that more of that is needed18:59
harlowjacall it like TC<->engineers outreach18:59
harlowja(^ or something nicer sounding)18:59
cdentbut I’m not sure if there’s yet a plan18:59
harlowjaseems like it would be easy to just do it19:00
harlowjathough people should be trained in the ways of yoda to not get pissed at whatever responses come in, lol19:00
harlowja(just incase)19:00
cdentwhat would be done with the input?19:01
harlowjacould influence the TC mission, agendas, goals...?19:01
persiaI know of some members of the TC that have done that, as individual developers (of some stature), but perhaps not with explicit reporting output19:01
smcginnisWe can all get out our dark slacks and crisp white button up shirts and go door to door.19:02
harlowjaand please take picts19:02
dhellmannharlowja : what sort of "outreach" did you have in mind?19:02
harlowjanot quite sure, something to get down closer to the engineers and engineering managers and ... that are down in the depths19:03
dhellmanncloser in what sense, though?19:04
harlowjabff closer, lol19:04
dhellmannwhat sorts of questions do you think need to be asked?19:04
harlowjahow could the TC do better? how can we all do better? how can i help you (as a manager) be more effective19:05
harlowjai have a feeling the whole engineering management that exists (somewhere in the back) never quite seems to be talked with19:05
harlowjafor unknown reasons (maybe they just need a real meeting, ha)19:05
dhellmannI think that's probably true. I think we assume the people actually contributing are proxying back and forth.19:05
cdentyeah, that assumption doesn’t seem to bear out19:06
persiaThe main issue is that the layer is somewhat invisible.  There have been attempts to reach that layer in the past, but they sometimes get caught by different interpretations of what is needed by the orgs, etc.19:06
dhellmannI mean, I do talk to managers frequently at the in-person events, but I know that not all managers come to those.19:06
harlowjaits only invisible if we believe it is right :-P19:06
* persia is very confident that most participants do not proxy well19:06
* harlowja is shitty proxy19:06
harlowja(though yes i am somewhat of that)19:06
dhellmannI think I'd want to know what we were trying to accomplish before taking on something that big. Not that it's a bad idea, just that it needs more specificity.19:06
cdentI suspect there is a bit of protcolo impedance that makes the proxying lossy19:07
harlowjaya, idk, seems easy to just do a <call out to people to talk, even on phone or zoom or ...>19:07
cdentdhellmann: what aspect of it are you seeing as “big”?19:07
dhellmanncdent : the number of people we would be talking to19:07
harlowja slice it up, 10 people per week?19:07
dhellmannI wouldn't want to start having a zillion vague phone calls without a much more specific purpose19:07
* cdent nods19:08
dhellmann"how can we do better" is still pretty vague, especially as a first outreach question19:08
harlowjaya, idk, it was just an idea, i'm sure the TC can figure out a good purpose19:08
harlowjaespecially to talk to people/management/engineers that may not feel they are getting talked to :-/19:08
persiacdent: Also protectiveness.  I've been asked by several folk to (unofficially) have a chat with their boss, carefully not mentioning their name (but perhaps having introduced me on another pretext), about things happening in the wider project.  That this is what I do is why I do it, but more folk carrying those messages might make developers feel less like their employment may be endangered for some opinions.19:09
dhellmannright, having some sort of communication channel with those people would be a good thing, but they're also not the sort of people who take meetings without agendas19:09
harlowjajust avoid imho accepting `layer is somewhat invisible`, because it doesn't have to be :)19:09
dhellmannso I'd want to know what we were trying to accomplish before trying to get onto calendars19:09
dhellmannharlowja : that goes both ways :-)19:09
harlowjabut takes 1 to love 119:10
harlowjaor is the saying different, idk19:10
dhellmannI mean, we've had "meet the tc" events at summits with very low turnout or interest19:10
harlowjaya, time to engage second level of dialing people on phones19:10
harlowjahello this is the TC, press 1 to talk to doug, or press 2 to talk to cdent19:10
dhellmannoh, god, no, please :-)19:11
harlowjaok, we can put u after a robot19:11
persiadhellmann: Some of those ended up being hard to get into.  Some others didn't have agenda, so it's more interesting to organise a client meeting.  I think your point about agenda is more important signal than the lack of turnout at empty events.19:11
harlowjahello this is the TC robot, lol19:11
dimsharlowja : seriously, will that help?19:11
dhellmannpersia : I don't really see engineering managers as my "clients"19:11
dhellmannbut I think I get what you mean19:12
cdentspecifically announcing a “management <-> TC” feedback thing has a different ring than meet the tc19:12
persiaI meant more interesting for the engineering managers to organise meetings with their clients.19:12
dhellmanncdent: that's true. I wonder if it's too late to do that for sydney19:12
cdentbut sorry, I need to go, will catch up in the log later, this is interesting19:12
dhellmannpersia : ah19:12
* cdent waves19:12
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dhellmannmaybe if we schedule it in one of the "private" meeting rooms that will give it the cache to attract people to actually attend19:13
persiaI know that I've tried to bring my clients to meet-the-tc events or other openstack social events, but if I have someone too senior in the group, we're more likely to end up spending a couple hours with one of the headline vendors.19:13
* dims remembers talking to harlowja's boss :)19:13
dhellmannThe TC's Smoke Filled Room19:13
persiaI presume other handlers experience the same, and unhandled engineering managers don't even consider the social events.19:13
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harlowjadims help, idk19:47
harlowjai am not so good at future prediction19:47
harlowjabut i don't see how more connections (and touchy-feely) and info (and feedback) hurts19:47
harlowjadirect that info/connections into technical stuff as the TC desires ...19:48
harlowjaif it will help, maybe, yes, no, idk, possibly....19:48
harlowjadoes it hurt trying, likely not19:50
harlowja(ask the foundation how there outreach thing goes, does it hurt them, make things better...)19:51
harlowja^ assuming someone is still doing that19:51
persiaharlowja: One of the more interesting aspects of how OpenStack works is that informing the TC only goes so far, as the TC can't actually tell anyone to do anything (or at least not beyond general guidelines).  So a related question is: what should be done with the information: should it just be collated to reports?  Alternately, do you imagine a two-way situation, where the TC considers input, and then provides input back to the engineering19:51
harlowjawe decide our own fate right (as a TC, as a community)?19:52
harlowjafate is what u make :-P19:52
* harlowja insert other random terminator quote ^19:53
harlowjai was pretty sure the TC decides its own fate, so it can decide as a body to change its fate if it decides to (and or wants to...)19:53
harlowjaso what should be done with that information, thats for the chosen fate to determine19:53
harlowjai don't have an answer as to what path to take (not so good at future prediction)19:54
harlowjamy zen power isn't high enough19:54
harlowjai mean, i can suggest things, but its sorta theorizing at this point, may be better to theorize after data-gather/research/touchy-feel talks with <whoever> and ... then decide fate19:56
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andreafpersia, pabelanger: thanks for looking into it20:40
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cdentharlowja: I caught up in the log. Looks like things fizzled out a bit?21:36
harlowjaya, i had lunch, ha21:36
cdentI’m asking my manager what they think of the idea21:39
harlowjacools, i mean these folks exist, pretty sure it'd be good to know them, lol21:40
cdentyou mean, like, people should, like, talk to one another?21:42
cdentyou, sir, are a revolutionary21:42
andreafpersia, pabelanger: my name was there in the list of TC candidates for a bit - now that TC Campaigning is started is gone again from the list22:14
* persia checks things22:14
andreafI guess the page change broke it again22:14
persiaandreaf: There's been no repo change, so that was just javascript.  Are you certain?22:15
persiaAlso, the countdown is (sadly) broken.  Technically, campaigning starts in 105 minutes, although the counter will give a different answer depending on the browser timezone.22:16
andreafah right I did +1 instead of -1 :P it's not time yet22:17
andreafI'm pretty sure I saw my name there, but it definitely isn't there now :)22:18
andreafpersia: time to go to bed for me now, ttyl22:20
persiaandreaf: Sleep well.  We'll get it sorted as soon as we can.  Feel free to start campaigning with everyone else even if we don't manage to fix it in time.22:21
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