| fungi | i certainly think competing with vsphere, aws, azure, et cetera is in scope for openstack, but i also am quite certain it's delusional to believe those aren't built on many pieces of software designed by lots of different teams with varying levels of cooperation/competition (they just get the benefit of hiding all those warts behind a somewhat singular public veneer) | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| smcginnis | fungi: I can say from experience that that is totally true. | 00:16 |
| fungi | some people are frightened by seeing how the sausage is made | 00:17 |
| smcginnis | Welcome to the slaughterhouse. :) | 00:18 |
| fungi | tc-members: (and anyone else around) let's make some sausage! | 01:00 |
| * fungi is partial to andouille | 01:00 | |
| EmilienM | hey | 01:01 |
| fungi | EmilienM: just the two of us so far, i guess | 01:02 |
| EmilienM | I'm quite surprised and also very happy to see so much diversity in the TC candidates, tbh | 01:03 |
| fungi | yes, i'm thrilled beyond words | 01:03 |
| fungi | diversity aside, i'm just thrilled we actually got >2x as many candidates as seats | 01:04 |
| EmilienM | yeah :D | 01:06 |
| fungi | i think this may be a first for candidate turn-out. now if we can just get a similar increase in voter turn-out | 01:08 |
| fungi | also, even if most/all incumbents get reelected, we're turning over quite a few empty seats this time i think? | 01:10 |
| * fungi counts them | 01:10 | |
| fungi | half | 01:11 |
| fungi | 3 incumbents for 6 seats | 01:11 |
| EmilienM | woot | 01:11 |
| fungi | so at least half of the seats we fill this time will be with first-time tc members | 01:12 |
| EmilienM | I'm about to cook something here, not much activity. I'll be back in a few | 01:16 |
| fungi | there are a few post jobs still queued for the elections site publication, but counting the candidacies which were approved in gerrit i think we have 16 candidates | 01:20 |
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| persia | Indeed, there were 16 candidates nominated | 01:25 |
| fungi | thanks for confirming! (and for officiating in general) | 01:27 |
| amrith | ./ | 01:31 |
| fungi | howdy amrith! | 01:31 |
| amrith | howdy fungi | 01:31 |
| amrith | slept through my alarm clock | 01:31 |
| amrith | nice to see so many candidates for the election | 01:31 |
| * fungi just set an alarm for 6am | 01:32 | |
| fungi | not looking forward to getting up before sunrise, but zuul commands me | 01:32 |
| amrith | 6am eh ... hmm, no | 01:32 |
| fungi | we want to beat the east-coast americas activity rush with the cutover | 01:33 |
| amrith | we have 16 candidates, and then we have dims :) | 01:34 |
| * fungi remembers a time when he would get up at 6am every day for his job, back when he had a commute longer that 20 feet | 01:34 | |
| fungi | er, longer than | 01:34 |
| persia | When I am in a sufficiently western timezone, I generally enjoy getting up before 6am, as the gentle light is nice for working, and the heat of the day is a good incentive to go outside afterwards. | 01:35 |
| fungi | it's tempting. i keep thinking i should take up fishing before work some mornings, in which case maybe i'd have more of an incentive to be up that early | 01:39 |
| fungi | clarkb says i should just take a netbook out on the dock and fish _while_ i work... my wireless does reach that far but i'm skeptical that would work out like it sounds | 01:40 |
| fungi | more likely i'd upend the computer into the bay | 01:40 |
| persia | A paper notebook for ideas that come from fishing is probably wiser, indeed :) | 01:44 |
| fungi | fer sure | 01:47 |
| fungi | and this concludes our second office hour of the week; catch us again in here at 15:00 utc on thursday for more lovable tc antics | 02:00 |
| amrith | :) | 02:00 |
| fungi | and with that, bed calls. tomorrow morning belongs to zuul | 02:04 |
| amrith | g'night dear tc members ... till tomorrow then | 02:04 |
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| andreaf | tonyb, persia it looks like the publish job for my candidacy went lost, so my name is not showing up in https://governance.openstack.org/election/#election-system | 17:05 |
| persia | andreaf: Yes. Apologies. Your name *will* be on the ballot. I'll look into how to get it on the docs page now. | 17:08 |
| andreaf | persia: thanks :) | 17:09 |
| andreaf | persia: if a propose a foobar update on the candidacy file will re-trigger publish, but there may be a nicer way | 17:10 |
| persia | Don't worry about that. If we end up needing a meaningless update, I can do that. My greater worry is either A) that something is wrong with the job, or B) that more things were missed during the timeframe that didn't publish. | 17:11 |
| persia | http://docs-draft.openstack.org/61/510961/2/gate/gate-election-docs-ubuntu-xenial/da1920c//doc/build/html/ suggests the right thing *should* have happened, which resolves (A) :) | 17:12 |
| persia | andreaf: Update: Unfortunately (B) applies. The underlying issue that caused http://logs.openstack.org/c7/c722a78bea5d1a75cb204cc783b2480131bd5bc4/post/static-election-publish/d11a220/console.html is currently being resolved, and we can likely run a publish update before the official start of the campaign period. | 17:29 |
| persia | Again, apologies that you ended up getting caught. | 17:29 |
| pabelanger | Yah, should have that fixed today. We can always requeue the post jobs if needed manually too | 17:30 |
| persia | pabelanger: I'm happy to push through a dummy change if that makes your life easier. Either way. | 17:30 |
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| harlowja | cdent oh hi, i found the right channel | 18:25 |
| harlowja | is this where the cool people are | 18:25 |
| harlowja | did i finds the cools? | 18:25 |
| SamYaple | and im here too harlowja | 18:25 |
| harlowja | hi cool people | 18:25 |
| cdent | harlowja: oh, I’m sorry, I’m not sure you’re welcome here. Everyone else is, but maybe not you. | 18:40 |
| harlowja | lol | 18:40 |
| harlowja | :( | 18:40 |
| * cdent checks the secret rule book | 18:42 | |
| cdent | oh, actually you _are_ allowed | 18:42 |
| cdent | welcome | 18:42 |
| harlowja | maybe someday i'll be cool, lol | 18:43 |
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| openstackgerrit | Matt McEuen proposed openstack/governance master: OpenStack-Helm - Helm charts for OpenStack https://review.openstack.org/511320 | 18:51 |
| harlowja | A question I've wondered, is the TC doing any outreach to various companies (or just random folks) that have engineers committed to openstack? I think the foundation does this, but seems like the TC could also (and things learned might be useful) | 18:57 |
| harlowja | ^ maybe thats something that could like be done? | 18:57 |
| cdent | harlowja: there’s been a lot of talk lately that more of that is needed | 18:59 |
| harlowja | call it like TC<->engineers outreach | 18:59 |
| harlowja | (^ or something nicer sounding) | 18:59 |
| cdent | but I’m not sure if there’s yet a plan | 18:59 |
| harlowja | kk | 18:59 |
| harlowja | seems like it would be easy to just do it | 19:00 |
| harlowja | though people should be trained in the ways of yoda to not get pissed at whatever responses come in, lol | 19:00 |
| harlowja | (just incase) | 19:00 |
| cdent | what would be done with the input? | 19:01 |
| harlowja | could influence the TC mission, agendas, goals...? | 19:01 |
| persia | I know of some members of the TC that have done that, as individual developers (of some stature), but perhaps not with explicit reporting output | 19:01 |
| smcginnis | We can all get out our dark slacks and crisp white button up shirts and go door to door. | 19:02 |
| harlowja | and please take picts | 19:02 |
| dhellmann | harlowja : what sort of "outreach" did you have in mind? | 19:02 |
| harlowja | not quite sure, something to get down closer to the engineers and engineering managers and ... that are down in the depths | 19:03 |
| dhellmann | closer in what sense, though? | 19:04 |
| harlowja | bff closer, lol | 19:04 |
| dhellmann | what sorts of questions do you think need to be asked? | 19:04 |
| harlowja | how could the TC do better? how can we all do better? how can i help you (as a manager) be more effective | 19:05 |
| dhellmann | ok | 19:05 |
| harlowja | i have a feeling the whole engineering management that exists (somewhere in the back) never quite seems to be talked with | 19:05 |
| harlowja | for unknown reasons (maybe they just need a real meeting, ha) | 19:05 |
| dhellmann | I think that's probably true. I think we assume the people actually contributing are proxying back and forth. | 19:05 |
| cdent | yeah, that assumption doesn’t seem to bear out | 19:06 |
| persia | The main issue is that the layer is somewhat invisible. There have been attempts to reach that layer in the past, but they sometimes get caught by different interpretations of what is needed by the orgs, etc. | 19:06 |
| dhellmann | I mean, I do talk to managers frequently at the in-person events, but I know that not all managers come to those. | 19:06 |
| harlowja | its only invisible if we believe it is right :-P | 19:06 |
| * persia is very confident that most participants do not proxy well | 19:06 | |
| * harlowja is shitty proxy | 19:06 | |
| harlowja | lol | 19:06 |
| harlowja | (though yes i am somewhat of that) | 19:06 |
| dhellmann | I think I'd want to know what we were trying to accomplish before taking on something that big. Not that it's a bad idea, just that it needs more specificity. | 19:06 |
| cdent | I suspect there is a bit of protcolo impedance that makes the proxying lossy | 19:07 |
| harlowja | ya, idk, seems easy to just do a <call out to people to talk, even on phone or zoom or ...> | 19:07 |
| cdent | dhellmann: what aspect of it are you seeing as “big”? | 19:07 |
| dhellmann | cdent : the number of people we would be talking to | 19:07 |
| harlowja | slice it up, 10 people per week? | 19:07 |
| dhellmann | I wouldn't want to start having a zillion vague phone calls without a much more specific purpose | 19:07 |
| * cdent nods | 19:08 | |
| dhellmann | "how can we do better" is still pretty vague, especially as a first outreach question | 19:08 |
| harlowja | ya, idk, it was just an idea, i'm sure the TC can figure out a good purpose | 19:08 |
| harlowja | especially to talk to people/management/engineers that may not feel they are getting talked to :-/ | 19:08 |
| persia | cdent: Also protectiveness. I've been asked by several folk to (unofficially) have a chat with their boss, carefully not mentioning their name (but perhaps having introduced me on another pretext), about things happening in the wider project. That this is what I do is why I do it, but more folk carrying those messages might make developers feel less like their employment may be endangered for some opinions. | 19:09 |
| dhellmann | right, having some sort of communication channel with those people would be a good thing, but they're also not the sort of people who take meetings without agendas | 19:09 |
| harlowja | just avoid imho accepting `layer is somewhat invisible`, because it doesn't have to be :) | 19:09 |
| dhellmann | so I'd want to know what we were trying to accomplish before trying to get onto calendars | 19:09 |
| dhellmann | harlowja : that goes both ways :-) | 19:09 |
| harlowja | sure | 19:10 |
| harlowja | but takes 1 to love 1 | 19:10 |
| harlowja | or is the saying different, idk | 19:10 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:10 |
| dhellmann | I mean, we've had "meet the tc" events at summits with very low turnout or interest | 19:10 |
| harlowja | ya, time to engage second level of dialing people on phones | 19:10 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:10 |
| harlowja | hello this is the TC, press 1 to talk to doug, or press 2 to talk to cdent | 19:10 |
| dhellmann | oh, god, no, please :-) | 19:11 |
| smcginnis | Haha | 19:11 |
| harlowja | ok, we can put u after a robot | 19:11 |
| persia | dhellmann: Some of those ended up being hard to get into. Some others didn't have agenda, so it's more interesting to organise a client meeting. I think your point about agenda is more important signal than the lack of turnout at empty events. | 19:11 |
| harlowja | hello this is the TC robot, lol | 19:11 |
| dims | harlowja : seriously, will that help? | 19:11 |
| dhellmann | persia : I don't really see engineering managers as my "clients" | 19:11 |
| dhellmann | but I think I get what you mean | 19:12 |
| cdent | specifically announcing a “management <-> TC” feedback thing has a different ring than meet the tc | 19:12 |
| persia | I meant more interesting for the engineering managers to organise meetings with their clients. | 19:12 |
| dhellmann | cdent: that's true. I wonder if it's too late to do that for sydney | 19:12 |
| cdent | but sorry, I need to go, will catch up in the log later, this is interesting | 19:12 |
| dhellmann | persia : ah | 19:12 |
| * cdent waves | 19:12 | |
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| dhellmann | maybe if we schedule it in one of the "private" meeting rooms that will give it the cache to attract people to actually attend | 19:13 |
| persia | I know that I've tried to bring my clients to meet-the-tc events or other openstack social events, but if I have someone too senior in the group, we're more likely to end up spending a couple hours with one of the headline vendors. | 19:13 |
| * dims remembers talking to harlowja's boss :) | 19:13 | |
| dhellmann | The TC's Smoke Filled Room | 19:13 |
| persia | I presume other handlers experience the same, and unhandled engineering managers don't even consider the social events. | 19:13 |
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| harlowja | dims help, idk | 19:47 |
| harlowja | i am not so good at future prediction | 19:47 |
| harlowja | but i don't see how more connections (and touchy-feely) and info (and feedback) hurts | 19:47 |
| harlowja | direct that info/connections into technical stuff as the TC desires ... | 19:48 |
| harlowja | if it will help, maybe, yes, no, idk, possibly.... | 19:48 |
| harlowja | does it hurt trying, likely not | 19:50 |
| harlowja | (ask the foundation how there outreach thing goes, does it hurt them, make things better...) | 19:51 |
| harlowja | ^ assuming someone is still doing that | 19:51 |
| persia | harlowja: One of the more interesting aspects of how OpenStack works is that informing the TC only goes so far, as the TC can't actually tell anyone to do anything (or at least not beyond general guidelines). So a related question is: what should be done with the information: should it just be collated to reports? Alternately, do you imagine a two-way situation, where the TC considers input, and then provides input back to the engineering | 19:51 |
| persia | managers? | 19:51 |
| harlowja | we decide our own fate right (as a TC, as a community)? | 19:52 |
| harlowja | fate is what u make :-P | 19:52 |
| harlowja | ha | 19:52 |
| * harlowja insert other random terminator quote ^ | 19:53 | |
| harlowja | i was pretty sure the TC decides its own fate, so it can decide as a body to change its fate if it decides to (and or wants to...) | 19:53 |
| harlowja | so what should be done with that information, thats for the chosen fate to determine | 19:53 |
| harlowja | i don't have an answer as to what path to take (not so good at future prediction) | 19:54 |
| harlowja | my zen power isn't high enough | 19:54 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:54 |
| harlowja | i mean, i can suggest things, but its sorta theorizing at this point, may be better to theorize after data-gather/research/touchy-feel talks with <whoever> and ... then decide fate | 19:56 |
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| andreaf | persia, pabelanger: thanks for looking into it | 20:40 |
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| cdent | harlowja: I caught up in the log. Looks like things fizzled out a bit? | 21:36 |
| harlowja | ya, i had lunch, ha | 21:36 |
| cdent | I’m asking my manager what they think of the idea | 21:39 |
| harlowja | cools, i mean these folks exist, pretty sure it'd be good to know them, lol | 21:40 |
| cdent | you mean, like, people should, like, talk to one another? | 21:42 |
| cdent | you, sir, are a revolutionary | 21:42 |
| harlowja | lol | 21:42 |
| andreaf | persia, pabelanger: my name was there in the list of TC candidates for a bit - now that TC Campaigning is started is gone again from the list | 22:14 |
| * persia checks things | 22:14 | |
| andreaf | I guess the page change broke it again | 22:14 |
| persia | andreaf: There's been no repo change, so that was just javascript. Are you certain? | 22:15 |
| persia | Also, the countdown is (sadly) broken. Technically, campaigning starts in 105 minutes, although the counter will give a different answer depending on the browser timezone. | 22:16 |
| andreaf | ah right I did +1 instead of -1 :P it's not time yet | 22:17 |
| andreaf | I'm pretty sure I saw my name there, but it definitely isn't there now :) | 22:18 |
| andreaf | persia: time to go to bed for me now, ttyl | 22:20 |
| persia | andreaf: Sleep well. We'll get it sorted as soon as we can. Feel free to start campaigning with everyone else even if we don't manage to fix it in time. | 22:21 |
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