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| openstackgerrit | ChangBo Guo(gcb) proposed openstack/governance master: Add Rocky goal to toggle the debug option at runtime https://review.openstack.org/534605 | 08:11 |
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| johnthetubaguy | just thinking about the PTG, is the board meeting likely to follow the same morning/afternoon pattern? | 15:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | I don't see that called out on the wiki page yet | 15:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | maybe we said no to a joint meeting, I don't remember now | 15:33 |
| mugsie | johnthetubaguy: there is not joint meeting afaik, just the board itself | 15:34 |
| TheJulia | The last thing I remember being mentioned about it was what mugsie indicated | 15:35 |
| cmurphy | that's also what wendar's response on the -foundation ml indicates | 15:38 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ah, thanks folks, that clears it up | 15:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | I would go and loiter, but I think a few more hours with little Francis is probably what is going to happen! | 15:55 |
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| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : good choice | 16:00 |
| ttx | yes, just board | 16:04 |
| mugsie | johnthetubaguy: it is on during the PTG anyway - so most non board people will probably have to skip | 16:06 |
| mugsie | (not on the sunday before as usual) | 16:06 |
| mugsie | as is usual* | 16:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | mugsie: ah, I totally missed that | 16:11 |
| cdent | yeah, whole things seems a bit wrong | 16:12 |
| mugsie | cdent: yeah - it does. | 16:17 |
| mugsie | you were at the SYD meeting, right? I remember a short discussion, but not an agreement on the date of this meeting - or did I miss somethign? | 16:17 |
| cdent | mugsie: yes, I didn't think there was agreement | 16:19 |
| cdent | I think the agreememt came later | 16:19 |
| cdent | there was also some discussion here in which ttx said we didn't all need to be there and smcginnis and I disputed that (and ran for the board as a result) | 16:19 |
| mugsie | yeah, that is what I remembered | 16:20 |
| cdent | I was going to respond on the email thread, but I've been ill | 16:21 |
| cdent | It's bad form to overlap | 16:21 |
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| dhellmann | we've tried to make that point a few times. the first time they wanted to colocate with the ptg we convinced them not to do it at all. loosening that to support the meeting the sunday before denver seems to have produced mixed messages. | 16:23 |
| cmurphy | I would have thought some of the existing board members would have objected to the overlap | 16:24 |
| dhellmann | very few of them actually participate in the ptg | 16:24 |
| cmurphy | but some do | 16:24 |
| dhellmann | apparently not enough to sway the rest of the board members | 16:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | having missed some of the in person meeting with the Board (various annoying reasons), I certainly felt quick out of the loop | 16:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | (and was please to see cdent and smcginnis offer their services to help with that) | 16:27 |
| cdent | foiled! | 16:27 |
| smcginnis | I would hope that lack of vocal engagement at those cross meetings is not taken as lack of interest or involvement. | 16:27 |
| dhellmann | I think the only way the meeting scheduling is going to change is for board members to object to the rest of the board directly, because input from those of us not on the board doesn't seem to be doing it. | 16:28 |
| smcginnis | Need some "cdent 2019" t-shirts and buttons at the PTG. | 16:28 |
| mugsie | smcginnis: I know a few printers in Dublin :D | 16:28 |
| smcginnis | mugsie: ;) | 16:28 |
| cdent | /o\ | 16:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | cdent: smcginnis: combining ideas here, is there a specific formal request we can get a board member to propose on our behalf, to help improve the communication? | 16:33 |
| smcginnis | I would like it proposed that the meeting take place in a time that doesn't directly conflict with non-board members being able to at least be present. | 16:34 |
| cdent | johnthetubaguy: a) I think that's a good thing to think about, b) I'm too ill think about it | 16:34 |
| mugsie | johnthetubaguy: afaik, there is nothing stoping us from putting an item on the agenda, and talking to them directly | 16:34 |
| * johnthetubaguy sends warm blanket and jug of water to cdent | 16:34 | |
| cdent | thanks | 16:34 |
| mugsie | and then letting them vote | 16:34 |
| cdent | I think mugsie's suggestion is the only "real" one | 16:35 |
| mugsie | the last couple of boards I have been on have allowed non members to present to it | 16:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | certainly that happens with member applications | 16:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | Do we want to send thoughts based on the published agenda, like these are top 3 things the TC things need a board level response? | 16:38 |
| smcginnis | johnthetubaguy: I like that idea. | 16:39 |
| mugsie | johnthetubaguy: if the agenda is published far enough in advance, that would be a good idea imho | 16:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess deep down I struggle with the whole formality of the conversations, and that's not really constructive, so that is just an attempt to adopt the formality | 16:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | mugsie: part of me wonders about doing that before, so it could shape the agenda if needed, but that is getting very chicken and egg, might be worth doing both I guess | 16:40 |
| mugsie | johnthetubaguy: I think that shaping the agenda is great, but it would really need people from the TC there, and actively participating to make an impact | 16:41 |
| mugsie | s/TC/community/ | 16:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think if we stimulate the conversation that makes it clear we are needed, it kinda shakes a whole set of things out for itself, so I guess I am not as worried about that | 16:42 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : the agenda is in the wiki https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/30Jan2018BoardMeeting | 16:43 |
| smcginnis | I would saying barring the change of TC actually attending the meeting, being able to give input/feedback on the planned agenda might be our best option. | 16:43 |
| smcginnis | *chance | 16:43 |
| dhellmann | iiuc, they decided that since we just had a joint meeting we didn't need to have another so soon because there wasn't much to report | 16:43 |
| dhellmann | I don't necessarily agree with the argument, but that's how it was presented when I asked | 16:43 |
| mugsie | I could just see a session of "Topic A" being rasied, no one really talking, and the topic being dropped and the board just moving on | 16:43 |
| dhellmann | it looks like most of the agenda is about welcoming the new members and making sure they understand how things work | 16:44 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: that was the basis of the discussion in here as well | 16:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess it went from every six to every three, which is quite a lot of their meetings | 16:44 |
| dhellmann | with an hour of strategic discussion at the end | 16:44 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : right | 16:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | it feels like the conversation we had about TC meetings and how it restricted what we could do | 16:45 |
| mugsie | so - there seems to be a chance for them to change the date for the f2f in tomorrows meeting | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | as much as I would like to dig in deeper on one of the "help wanted" items, I'm not sure that format is the best way to do it | 16:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: ++ | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | my guess is that most people have already booked travel so it's unlikely to change | 16:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | that too | 16:46 |
| dhellmann | which isn't to say that you should stop asking, just to set expectations realistically | 16:46 |
| mugsie | oh, true | 16:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | I would rather we were clear on what we need to talk to them about, I just did nothing in here, in case that starts some ideas: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tc-message-to-board-dublin-2018 | 16:47 |
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| smcginnis | This may be interesting to this crowd: https://github.com/cncf/toc/issues/85 | 17:25 |
| dhellmann | their model is a bit different | 17:27 |
| dhellmann | they encourage projects to have their own governance structure | 17:27 |
| dhellmann | we try to have projects follow a common structure | 17:27 |
| dhellmann | that means it may be easier for us to bring projects in earlier, so we can help them establish those patterns | 17:27 |
| dhellmann | that's less important for cncf projects, if they're all expected to be a little different anyway | 17:28 |
| ttx | interesting nevertheless | 17:29 |
| dhellmann | yes | 17:30 |
| ttx | In the case of CNCF they are using it more as an early landgrab, but the technical/community rationale for getting rid of the concept is eeringly similar to ours | 17:31 |
| cdent | I have an amusing reaction to jessfraz which is something like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2fXs3bf-p0 | 17:33 |
| dhellmann | we still support bringing new projects in, we just don't call it incubation any more | 17:33 |
| dhellmann | we said diversity and consumption weren't requirements, right? | 17:34 |
| smcginnis | cdent: LOL | 17:34 |
| cdent | thanks for being there smcginnis | 17:34 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: She seems to be pressing for comsumption first, then incubation. | 17:35 |
| cdent | yes, and I think she's right | 17:35 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : yes | 17:35 |
| dhellmann | cdent : I see you voted in favor of qinling. how many users does that have? | 17:35 |
| cdent | dhellmann: you make a good point. Sadly I've tended to vote for projects with an eye to how we've done voting before, not with my conscience | 17:37 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I realized my phrasing came out sort of snarky, and I didn't mean it that way | 17:37 |
| cdent | becasue it seems unfair to say "no" after we've helped foster so many things that may never should have existed in the first place | 17:38 |
| dhellmann | it would be interesting to review our project list with the consumption criteria in mind to see if we would want to drop any | 17:38 |
| cdent | half of me would _love_ to do that | 17:38 |
| cdent | and half of me thinks that would be cruel | 17:38 |
| smcginnis | Careful, I was told I couldn't do that as TC. :) | 17:38 |
| * cdent sends smcginnis a hat box | 17:39 | |
| cdent | "what's in the box?" | 17:39 |
| smcginnis | :) | 17:39 |
| smcginnis | Hah! | 17:39 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : removing them from the official project list is within our purview | 17:39 |
| dhellmann | removing them from infra is fuzzier | 17:39 |
| smcginnis | What's in the box cdent? What's in the box!?! | 17:39 |
| smcginnis | Sorry, had to do it. | 17:39 |
| cdent | would be wrong not to | 17:40 |
| cdent | I think an issue with the way we do projects is that openstack is old enough and enclosed enough that we have our own ecosystem. | 17:43 |
| cdent | that ecosystem is insufficiently open for "new things" to grow organically simply because they are good | 17:43 |
| cdent | Long ago I argued that the closedness of the ecosystem was the bug | 17:43 |
| dhellmann | we've always had the tension between becoming a set of unique projects and being a set of tools that act the same for deployers and users | 17:45 |
| cdent | If we agree that closedness is a fact of life, then some kind of inception is pretty much a requirement | 17:46 |
| dhellmann | I'm not sure what you mean by "closedness" | 17:49 |
| cdent | dhellmann: a mixture of things, but things like: we operate in a cloister (an albeit glorious and impressive one) run by infra that requires a special visit to get to; our projects and tools were for a long time for use with each other and not with the whole world; or to put it another way: | 17:53 |
| cdent | openstack is a bit of a cult. you join it. once you join it, you're in it. it is very consuming. | 17:54 |
| cdent | case in point | 17:54 |
| cdent | I just went to look at that toc that jessfraz wrote and I was all "oh, okay, github, I know this" | 17:55 |
| cdent | I was able to decode the context easily | 17:55 |
| dhellmann | because you were familiar with the tool | 17:58 |
| dhellmann | ? | 17:58 |
| cdent | because being familiar with _that_ tool is damn near equivalent to being familiar with open source these days | 17:59 |
| dhellmann | sure | 17:59 |
| cdent | which I don't agree is a good thing, but is a thing | 17:59 |
| dhellmann | otoh, every project of any real scale is having issues with that tool. all the ones I know about are far smaller than us, too. | 17:59 |
| cdent | yeah, no argument there, I'm not saying "let's move to github" | 18:00 |
| cdent | I'm saying that people have perceptions | 18:00 |
| dhellmann | sure | 18:00 |
| dhellmann | I agree | 18:00 |
| cdent | another factor is that open source projects only grow organically when they are actively and immediately useful to individuals | 18:03 |
| cdent | openstack doesn't quite fit with that, thus, again, the need for inception | 18:03 |
| dhellmann | that's back to my question about which projects aren't seeing adoption | 18:04 |
| cdent | (by actively and immediately, I mean "something I can try for myself, now") | 18:04 |
| dhellmann | yeah, it's hard to set up a demo environment, even as an all-in-one | 18:05 |
| cdent | which is not a slight on openstack, it just means that different rules apply for how to "govern" | 18:07 |
| dhellmann | time for lunch, bbiab | 18:07 |
| cdent | jessfraz wants to apply the opensource mechanics to cncf stuff, and it might work there, but I don't know what it would here | 18:07 |
| cdent | which may provide us with a useful evaluative lens | 18:08 |
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| dhellmann | perhaps. since we expect projects to host themselves on git.o.o there may be a bit more of a migration effort for a project that gains traction elsewhere first | 18:38 |
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