| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/governance master: Remove editor mode setting from goals template https://review.openstack.org/541490 | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/governance master: Rename goals/template.txt to .rst https://review.openstack.org/541496 | 00:02 |
| dhellmann | fungi : I think you're going to want to add the file to the exclusion list to make sphinx not scan it and then report an error because it's not in toctree list ^^ | 00:04 |
| fungi | dhellmann: yeah, likely. i figure if i push it up i'll find out quickly | 00:04 |
| * dhellmann nods | 00:04 | |
| fungi | well, for backlogged ci versions of quickly at any rate. it's not an urgent change, just annoyed at seeing editor configuration copied around likely by people who don't even use the editors in question | 00:05 |
| fungi | possibly faster than i'll figure out what libpcre package the docs build needs me to install on my workstation at any rate | 00:09 |
| fungi | no idea why python-pcre can't provide a manylinux1 wheel | 00:11 |
| fungi | maybe because its last release basically predates manylinux1 | 00:11 |
| * fungi sighs | 00:11 | |
| fungi | of course, i was missing libpcre3-dev. i wonder if we should add a bindep.txt to openstack/governance | 00:14 |
| fungi | ValueError: No project 'Packaging-deb' in projects.yaml | 00:15 |
| fungi | joy | 00:15 |
| fungi | so why is it even finding Packaging-deb? | 00:17 |
| fungi | the change to move it into legacy merged back in late december | 00:18 |
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| fungi | mmm, looks like i may have been in need of a thorough git clean there for a while | 00:25 |
| fungi | finally able to confirm | 00:25 |
| fungi | sphinx.errors.SphinxWarning: /home/fungi/work/openstack/openstack/governance/doc/source/goals/template.rst:: WARNING: document isn't included in any toctree | 00:25 |
| fungi | i'll add it to the hidden one | 00:25 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/governance master: Rename goals/template.txt to .rst https://review.openstack.org/541496 | 00:31 |
| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/governance master: Remove editor mode setting from goals template https://review.openstack.org/541490 | 00:31 |
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| fungi | i find it mildly interesting that https://review.openstack.org/537233 and https://review.openstack.org/541197 are so similar, proposed by different people from the same employer a couple weeks apart | 00:49 |
| fungi | all the proposed changes in gerrit from those two contributors fall into the same category | 00:51 |
| fungi | only a few dozen in total though, and ostensibly valid corrections/cleanup | 00:52 |
| fungi | but all within the last few weeks | 00:52 |
| fungi | skimming the commits stackalytics references for the top contributors from the same member company, they all seem to be that way | 00:57 |
| fungi | diablo_rojo: ^ probably one for the first contact sig, if they've not already been engaged? | 00:58 |
| smcginnis | fungi: I've seen a few of those patches go through. | 01:00 |
| smcginnis | Now that the Great HTTP Purge of 2017 is done. | 01:00 |
| fungi | and now i guess it's office hour time | 01:01 |
| smcginnis | Wow, I made it to one of these! | 01:01 |
| fungi | purely by accident i'm sure. or at least you can try to tell yourself that | 01:02 |
| smcginnis | Not a lot to discuss with the two of us. | 01:07 |
| fungi | mmm | 01:10 |
| fungi | nope | 01:10 |
| fungi | maybe some interested apac contributors will show up | 01:10 |
| fungi | this is supposed to be the apac-friendly timeslot, after all | 01:11 |
| mtreinish | fungi: it's not just apac friendly. I'm normally online this time of day too :p | 01:24 |
| fungi | sure, americas night owl friendly too then | 01:24 |
| * fungi notes he too is usually around | 01:24 | |
| fungi | still trying to catch up on all the things i shrugged off earlier today to deal with infrasplosions instead | 01:25 |
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| smcginnis | fungi: Have the embers died down? | 01:50 |
| fungi | for the most part | 01:50 |
| smcginnis | Check queue is still high, but at least it looks like it's not growing anymore. | 01:51 |
| fungi | http://grafana.openstack.org/dashboard/db/zuul-status says our node requests are finally down to ~1k (which is approximately our aggregate quota) so the backlog should hopefully clear in the next few hours | 01:52 |
| fungi | basically we need to turn over all our nodes once to fulfill the current backlog and this time of day we don't tend to add much | 01:52 |
| fungi | so estimating average job runtime at an hour, that's about how long it'll be before all runnable jobs are running | 01:53 |
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| fungi | anyway, i think that's it for me tonight. i'm going to slowly poke at some election tasks but basically down for the count | 02:13 |
| smcginnis | Me too, see you fungi. | 02:14 |
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| openstackgerrit | Masayuki Igawa proposed openstack/governance master: Add Cold upgrades capabilities https://review.openstack.org/533544 | 05:00 |
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| masayukig | ^^^^^^^^ EmilienM and TC guys, I updated the goal. Could you take a look when you are available? | 06:11 |
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| cdent | ttx: I'm +1 on time for the topic "where does the open source upstream project stop" | 11:55 |
| cdent | and tuesday afternoon is good | 11:55 |
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| ttx | cool. | 12:49 |
| EmilienM | masayukig: sure | 12:52 |
| ttx | Looks like the mox goal is facing some resistance on the review... We could substitute the cold upgrade capabilities one to it. | 12:56 |
| cdent | ttx there was some interesting conversation in the nova channel about that yesterday evening. Most of it is reflected in the comments that were left on the review, but a thing that stood out a bit more strongly in the conversation was "why don't we just keep mox3 alive?" | 12:59 |
| ttx | That's a fair question and it made me pause... I think it's a question of code surface and if you consider that tech debt, the need to reduce it. | 13:03 |
| ttx | But clearly if the cost of "maintaining" mox is limited, that drops the priority of gettign rid of it | 13:04 |
| ttx | So I think that's the missing bit of information. How costly is it to keep it going. | 13:05 |
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| cdent | Perhaps, but I also think that "we're doing a non-standard thing" is reasonable reason to change. | 13:10 |
| persia | Unless that non-standard thing is intentional, and a result of considered opinion. For example, I think gerrit+zuul is incredibly good, but it's something we do for opinionated reasons, and is far from standard. | 13:18 |
| cdent | persia: "non-standard" was probably the wrong phrase. Perhaps "non-idiomatic". In the sense that 'mock' is the way people mock in Python, generally. | 13:19 |
| persia | I have a much easier time agreeing with that phrasing :) | 13:19 |
| cdent | I'm certainly not of the opinion that everybody should use the same thing if there are lots of different good things. zuul's great. I also happen to like gabbi. Neither are in a domain that is sufficiently rife with idioms for that to be an issue. | 13:20 |
| cdent | gerrit on the other hand... I really think gerrit is an actively damaging tool, but like so many tools is the least bad. | 13:21 |
| persia | Because of the terrible UI, or because of the workflows it imposes? | 13:21 |
| cmurphy | cdent: wow that's an interesting take | 13:21 |
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| cdent | oh noes, have I made a "hot take"? quick, to twitter! ;) | 13:22 |
| cmurphy | >.< | 13:22 |
| cdent | persia: it's hard to explain but short answer "workflows". Slightly less short answer: the impact it has on the human interactions that surround the review process. Very easy to tunnel vision or lose track of the larger points of code review in favor of details. | 13:24 |
| cdent | of course the ui _is_ terrible, and helps to drive the workflow issues | 13:25 |
| persia | Ah, makes sense. If there is a pause, I'd be delighted to discuss more in Dublin, as I find many of the other available workflows even more damaging, and would like to have a clear vision of the "right" tooling. | 13:25 |
| dims | cdent : do we have outstanding requests on stuff to be fixed in mox3? | 13:25 |
| cdent | dims: as far as I'm aware (which is not very) I don't think there is much broken. It's stable. Does what it says on the tin. which is why some people are saying "let's just carry on then" | 13:27 |
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| dims | just not add any more was the line we used to take before | 13:27 |
| cdent | persia: yeah, other workflows often even more damaging, thus the "least bad". Also, as you're aware, there's a whole complex of factors involved in the experience of creating code and it's unclear how much of gerrit is a cause and how much is it simply helping things there anyway | 13:29 |
| cdent | dims: as I said in the nova conversation last night, I'm not wed to anything with regard to mox. My engagement in the topic is because I want the goals process to be real and useful and have a style of authority | 13:30 |
| persia | Yep. That's why I'm interested. In other contexts, I end up recommending Gitlab or Gerrit or Gitano or whatever, and I'm wondering if it is possible to make a tool that avoids the traps. | 13:30 |
| fungi | cdent: i tend to agree with you somewhat on gerrit. i still slightly prefer th lkml workflow and mailing lists for code review, but have to admit gerrit brings quite a few efficiencies (granted, at the cost of a slight decrease in holistic approach to review) | 13:30 |
| fungi | but... at least it's not github! | 13:30 |
| cdent | github is nice for small things, but falls apart otherwise | 13:31 |
| cdent | I sometimes react to that thinking: everything should be small | 13:31 |
| dims | ++ | 13:31 |
| fungi | i accept gerrit as a necessary evil because i doubt we'd achieve similar throughput via e-mail | 13:31 |
| cdent | fungi: yes | 13:32 |
| cdent | It's certainly the case that a lot of not-great stuff which could be attributed to gerrit could just as easily be attributed to the social pressures of scale | 13:32 |
| fungi | but gerrit does definitely focus the reviewer more on line-by-line feedback than discourse | 13:33 |
| fungi | it has facilities to support both, yet seems to attract/encourage more of the former than the latter (particularly due to lack of discussion threading) | 13:34 |
| cdent | yes and yes | 13:34 |
| cdent | "discourse" is probably a key word in this topic | 13:35 |
| cmurphy | comments have a little reply button now that does quoting | 13:35 |
| persia | yes | 13:35 |
| fungi | on lkml you frequently get good discussions of an entire patch series rather than just patch-by-patch (and a lot less quibbling over a single line) | 13:35 |
| fungi | cmurphy: sure. the quoting dos at least help provide context in busy discussions. it's no substitute for threading but better than nothing | 13:36 |
| fungi | and we do still get those broader discussions as well, but end up falling back to our mailing list to have them | 13:37 |
| persia | During some of the pynotedb discussions, the gerrit folk were open to the idea of dealing with series, rather than individual patches, but it would require a UI overhaul. | 13:41 |
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| cdent | cmurphy: would you describe yourself as a "fan of gerrit" or "accepting of gerrit" or something else? | 13:50 |
| cmurphy | cdent: fan of gerrit | 13:53 |
| cmurphy | having come from github | 13:53 |
| cdent | big projects on github? | 13:53 |
| cmurphy | it encourages small self-contained changes | 13:53 |
| cmurphy | i'd say medium-size and small | 13:54 |
| cmurphy | puppet modules and puppet | 13:54 |
| cdent | I agree that the way you can separately evaluate a series of related changes in gerrit can be very nice, but it can also be very hard to see (or talk about the big picture) | 13:55 |
| cdent | (btw: I'm not suggesting we change things or anything like that, just making conversation) | 13:55 |
| cmurphy | i guess i'm a fan of the fact that we have multiple communication channels and we don't rely on only our code review tool to talk about things | 13:56 |
| fungi | true, i think we do a good job of balancing discussion between multiple venues | 13:57 |
| cmurphy | code review tools are for code review, mailing lists are for async communication, irc is for sync communication | 13:57 |
| cmurphy | trying to do every part of open source through github is trying to assign too much responsibility to one tool | 13:57 |
| fungi | the line between "code review" and "discussion" can be blurry though | 13:58 |
| cmurphy | sure | 13:58 |
| cmurphy | and discussions overlap | 13:58 |
| cdent | I can sense a moment of violent agreement approaching | 13:58 |
| * cdent braces self | 13:58 | |
| fungi | cmurphy has that effect on people | 13:58 |
| cmurphy | lol | 13:58 |
| fungi | "stop making me agree with your salient points!" | 13:59 |
| dims | lol | 13:59 |
| fungi | (...is what i would be saying, but now i need to do some code review) | 14:00 |
| * TheJulia sips coffee and reads | 14:14 | |
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| kfox1111 | question... does all projects support osprofiler yet? If not, would that be a good cross project goal? | 17:11 |
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| kfox1111 | our openstack dashboard has been getting slower and slower and we're starting to have to instrement things to figure out how to fix it. | 17:12 |
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| dhellmann | mox3 is currently listed as maintained by the oslo team, but we wanted to stop having to maintain it. If we're going to keep it, we probably want to find other owners for it, or at least ask the oslo team if they will continue to manage it. I've put that on the agenda for the Oslo team at the PTG. | 17:15 |
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| rosmaita | sorry to interrupt ... is it still office hours? | 17:18 |
| dhellmann | rosmaita : not really but that's no reason not to bring something up. what's on your mind? | 17:19 |
| dhellmann | kfox1111 : I don't think all projects do support it yet, but I'm not sure. That might make a good goal. Are you interested in doing the work to figure out what would need to be done? | 17:20 |
| rosmaita | what's our current position with respect to postgres? i.e., suppose there was a hypothetical openstack project that didn't want to support it any more, could that project just stop? | 17:20 |
| dhellmann | that came up at the summit in boston I think | 17:21 |
| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Retire horizon-cisco-ui project https://review.openstack.org/541809 | 17:21 |
| dhellmann | we have a couple of big distributors and/or users who are relying on it, so I think we said we wouldn't drop it based on that meeting | 17:21 |
| dhellmann | let me see if we wrote that down somewhere | 17:21 |
| rosmaita | thanks | 17:21 |
| dhellmann | rosmaita : https://governance.openstack.org/tc/resolutions/20170613-postgresql-status.html | 17:21 |
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| cmurphy | for the record suse is working toward becoming not one of those distros | 17:22 |
| kfox1111 | dhellmann: not sure. depends on if I need to do the work to fix the problem. | 17:22 |
| dhellmann | cmurphy : ++ | 17:22 |
| rosmaita | dhellmann ty | 17:22 |
| kfox1111 | just starting to look into osprofiler. | 17:22 |
| dhellmann | I think the other big company using it was Huawei? but they had their own fork of PG or something? | 17:22 |
| kfox1111 | would really like to hook it into something like jaeger so it has less overhead. | 17:22 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis, dims : do you know about postgresql support at Huawei? ^^ | 17:23 |
| mriedem | huawei uses guassdb | 17:23 |
| mriedem | which is a pg fork i think | 17:23 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: I believe our product still uses a postgres.. yeah, that | 17:23 |
| dhellmann | kfox1111 : that sounds like an interesting project. what would Jaeger replace? (I don't know what osprofiler is using as a backend these days) | 17:23 |
| kfox1111 | dhellmann: currently osprofiler sends everything through ceilometer. | 17:24 |
| mriedem | SAP also uses pg i think | 17:24 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis , mriedem : it sounds like the glance team is interested in being able to drop support. there may be an opportunity to contribute there | 17:24 |
| kfox1111 | which is kind of a pain/slow. and profiling everything is costly. | 17:24 |
| kfox1111 | last I looked at jaeger, it had the option to at runtime capture only some traces while ignoring the rest. | 17:24 |
| kfox1111 | so much better to leave in place in production. | 17:25 |
| mriedem | what is glance trying to do that won't work with pg over sqla? | 17:25 |
| dhellmann | rosmaita : ^^ | 17:25 |
| kfox1111 | I saw a ps adding jaeger support to osprofiler. | 17:25 |
| rosmaita | smcginnis mriedem dhellmann : our rolling upgrade stuff | 17:25 |
| kfox1111 | hasn't merged yet. not sure if its usable or not. | 17:25 |
| mriedem | can you make it optional? | 17:25 |
| mriedem | i.e. if you want rolling upgrades, use mysql, else you don't get rolling upgrade | 17:25 |
| mriedem | are you talking about db triggers or something? | 17:25 |
| rosmaita | yes | 17:26 |
| smcginnis | What is the issue with rolling upgrade and postgres? | 17:26 |
| mriedem | so if engine == 'mysql': do that thing | 17:26 |
| smcginnis | rosmaita: Just looking at some mysql optimization? | 17:26 |
| mriedem | i assume it's going to use native sql rather than sqla ORM? | 17:26 |
| rosmaita | yeah, but right now it's if engine != mysql barf | 17:26 |
| mriedem | so make barf == offline data migration | 17:27 |
| dhellmann | are we already using that pattern elsewhere? | 17:27 |
| rosmaita | not sure | 17:28 |
| mriedem | nova does online data migration in code | 17:28 |
| mriedem | on read | 17:28 |
| mriedem | data migration is never done during nova-manage db sync | 17:28 |
| mriedem | and we have CLIs to let you run those in batches as you like | 17:29 |
| mriedem | been doing that since kilo | 17:30 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I think that's the preferred way to do it, but I was asking if we already have another project doing the online/offline mode switch based on the database | 17:31 |
| dhellmann | maybe keystone? | 17:31 |
| mriedem | no lbragstad here... | 17:31 |
| dhellmann | I remember lots of discussion about not using database triggers or stored procedures and keystone going ahead anyway. rosmaita, you might consider the python-code approach mriedem is describing as an alternative. | 17:31 |
| rosmaita | i think ours was roughly based on keystone and maybe neutron | 17:32 |
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| cmurphy | keystone is using triggers | 17:33 |
| cmurphy | i don't know the history there though | 17:33 |
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| openstackgerrit | Monty Taylor proposed openstack/governance master: Dedicate Queens release to Shawn Pearce https://review.openstack.org/541313 | 19:35 |
| mordred | ttx: ^^ fixed | 19:35 |
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| mordred | cmurphy, rosmaita: I was one of the voices of "please dear god do not use triggers" | 19:36 |
| mordred | cmurphy, rosmaita: I got ignored because "we already wrote the code" IIRC | 19:36 |
| cmurphy | :/ | 19:37 |
| mordred | triggers are a TERRIBLE idea if you want things to be scalable - as they locate CPU logic and activity in the portion of the infrastructure that is the hardest to scale | 19:37 |
| mordred | they're also a TERRIBLE idea from a maint perspective as long as we support more than one database engine | 19:37 |
| mordred | given that all of the SQL written in openstack is doing through the SQLA abstraction, having some actions all of a sudden be in direct low-level SQL is conginitively dissonant | 19:38 |
| cdent | quite | 19:38 |
| mordred | now - ignoring the scaling and debugging concerns, if we wanted to shift our SQL layer to being SQL statements and not ORM generated it MIGHT make more sense, because then we'd develop tooling around validing SQL | 19:39 |
| mordred | but - triggers are terrible from a scaling perspective and are also a completely different beast for an admin to debug | 19:39 |
| mordred | since errors in a trigger are going to go into database logs and will not show up in openstack operational logs | 19:39 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 19:40 |
| mordred | anywa - that's my soapbox about triggers and stored-procedures in modern web apps | 19:40 |
| mordred | they were a fantastic idea when the world tended to be one very large and expensive machine with the Oracle database on it and a wealth of applications that used the storede procedures as an API access layer to the db | 19:40 |
| persia | SPoT scaling is CAP-limited, so yeah, even if 4GLs are "better", they don't scale. | 19:40 |
| persia | It also works with other-brand DBs :) | 19:40 |
| mordred | but that hasn't described the state of the world for the web in MANY years | 19:41 |
| mordred | persia: ++ | 19:41 |
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| mordred | this is, incidentally, the same issue I have with actually applying foreign keys at the DB layer - it's a solution to a problem written for a time we no longer live in | 19:41 |
| mordred | and although it's 'correct' from a relational algebra perspective, it's *wrong* from a "I want this bad boy to actually work at scale" - when all the access to the db is going to be flowing through an app layer anyway | 19:42 |
| mordred | BUT - I've given up on selling people about that | 19:42 |
| persia | I think of constraints as useful for developers, in terms of causing early errors in CI. The only reason to have them in production is the convenience of identical code for production and testing. | 19:43 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/governance master: Rename goals/template.txt to .rst https://review.openstack.org/541496 | 20:17 |
| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/governance master: Remove editor mode setting from goals template https://review.openstack.org/541490 | 20:17 |
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| dims | fungi : just sold yaml2ical to sig-contribex folks ( https://github.com/kubernetes/community/issues/1759 ) hurray | 21:54 |
| fungi | woo! | 21:54 |
| fungi | tonyb: ^ your baby's all grown up now | 21:55 |
| fungi | oh, i guess lbragstad and ttx did the bulk of stuff in there after the initial intern efforts trailed off | 21:58 |
| fungi | and mrodden | 21:59 |
| tonyb | dims: \o/ | 22:02 |
| tonyb | fungi: Yeah I did only small amounts | 22:02 |
| dims | don't know if they will pick it up. at least made sure it was on their radar :) | 22:02 |
| tonyb | fungi, dims: I knwo it was used in centos and probaly still is | 22:02 |
| tonyb | dims: well if they do or they don't for silly things like missing features I'm happy to work with $people to address that. | 22:03 |
| dims | ack tonyb ! will report back if there's any progress | 22:03 |
| dims | and good morning :) | 22:04 |
| tonyb | dims: afternoon/evening ;P | 22:06 |
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