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| ttx | Tracker updated | 08:46 |
|---|---|---|
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add config_template to OpenStack-Ansible https://review.openstack.org/546679 | 08:46 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Remove ironic-inspector-tempest-plugin https://review.openstack.org/550538 | 08:46 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Remove Zuul from OpenStack governance https://review.openstack.org/552637 | 08:46 |
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| cdent | tc-members it is time to engage in office hours, let's hope we have visitors from near and far | 09:00 |
| ttx | indeed | 09:00 |
| ttx | I'll be grabbing coffee | 09:00 |
| cmurphy | o/ | 09:00 |
| ttx | slow start this morning | 09:00 |
| cdent | me too | 09:01 |
| cdent | I have a comment/question as SIG leader, related to executive power in the sigs. there's a subthread on a recent api-sig weekly posting about working on api schema. Gilles eventually comes round to hoping that the SIG can more actively drive things: (he starts things here http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2018-March/128414.html then I respond, and then he responds this morning) | 09:04 |
| cdent | I'm asking about it because it is an example of the general case of needing/wanting to do multi-project change in the absence of any one "authoritative" asserting the change is right | 09:05 |
| cdent | We see that a lot. | 09:05 |
| cdent | I think it is probably just the nature of our beast, but... | 09:06 |
| ttx | They obviously have limited power beyond the respect that their members trigger in the general population | 09:07 |
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| ttx | They could derive authority from some delegation of power from the TC | 09:07 |
| ttx | but not by just being a SIG | 09:07 |
| ttx | and we've found softer suggestions (like release goals) to work better than top-down mandates | 09:08 |
| cdent | well in this specific case he's not really got support of the SIG either, but he's hoping that by convincing us we can then convince the world, and I'm trying to say "convince the world and we will be convinced" | 09:08 |
| ttx | yes, I agree with your position there | 09:09 |
| cdent | But (as usual), I'm intrigued by the underlying pattern here, as it related to getting stuff done. | 09:10 |
| cdent | relates | 09:10 |
| ttx | It is (as usual) quite subtle. | 09:10 |
| cdent | :) | 09:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | ++ | 09:11 |
| ttx | The way I framed it in teh past is that you amass influence tokens by helping others and making yourself useful to the project | 09:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | its a community dynamic that the PWG were finding hard to understand I think | 09:11 |
| ttx | Then you can spend some of those influence tokens by weighing on decisions in ML threads and/or reviews | 09:11 |
| ttx | and asking people to do things | 09:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | cdent: every time I reflect on this stuff I seem to decide its our biggest advantage and biggest disadvantage at the same time | 09:12 |
| cdent | johnthetubaguy: yeah, exactly | 09:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | not sure if that cancels each other out :p | 09:12 |
| cdent | heh | 09:12 |
| ttx | The title/position is really not the key. Like TC members can get others to do things more because they are respected individual members of the community than because they were elected | 09:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | I like that bind man seeing the elephant story, that makes me happier about it | 09:13 |
| ttx | which I think is what some people overlook | 09:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | I mean the PTL had trust that got them elected, its not really the other way around | 09:13 |
| ttx | right | 09:13 |
| ttx | Also you need to periodically make yourself useful again, or you will run out of influence tokens | 09:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | so that elephant thing, its really easy to make the tree trunk you want to build and ignore everyone, but you get unstuck when you realised you needed the full elephant after all | 09:14 |
| ttx | "Be the tree trunk you want to see the elephant of" | 09:15 |
| * johnthetubaguy thinks ttx has gone very yoda | 09:15 | |
| ttx | or is it the other way around | 09:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, works both ways | 09:16 |
| ttx | Remember your failure at the cave | 09:16 |
| * ttx creates an etherpad for brainstorming forum sessions | 09:17 | |
| ttx | (TC edition) | 09:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | cdent: I think in there is something about the key to developer happiness, tricky though. | 09:18 |
| cdent | johnthetubaguy: can you expand on that a bit? | 09:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, the collaboration can be painful and frustrating at times, because people are people | 09:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | but at the other side of it, you do generally get something better and more widely useful, which is rewarding | 09:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | when you don't, well that is depressing | 09:20 |
| ttx | It's a two-edged sword. When you want something done elsewhere you kind of like the idea of being able to get other to do things. But when you receive such directives you don't like it much | 09:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | add in that its a set up in the number of people involved that many folks are used to, with no hierarchy to "enforce" things, there is no real shortcut | 09:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: yeah | 09:21 |
| ttx | Which is why I prefer a more personal model: make yourself useful to me and I'll likely be happy to be useful to you | 09:21 |
| ttx | In the ProductWG case they were not very useful to most. | 09:22 |
| ttx | which created an imbalance, like why should I care | 09:22 |
| cdent | and here I thought it was because they were suits ;) | 09:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | I tried to say about how early on in the design summit we used to have product managers chip in and say, well that sounds fun but the users are asking for X not Y. ohh... good point, lets flip the conversation, etc. | 09:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | not saying that is easy, but it would have been useful | 09:25 |
| ttx | trying to find the etherpads we used for session brainstorming in the past, but failing in search foo | 09:26 |
| cdent | One of the standout sentences in Gilles message is where he says (paraphrase) "I represent a lot of people, most of them are too busy to come upstream" | 09:26 |
| ttx | hrm | 09:27 |
| cdent | (in that context he means dev-oriented people) | 09:27 |
| cdent | and I want to write back "they need to come upstream" | 09:27 |
| * johnthetubaguy nods | 09:28 | |
| johnthetubaguy | now there is a truth there, we need it to be easier for non-full time upstream people to engage upstream | 09:28 |
| * ttx just accidentally fell on https://openstack.nimeyo.com/122095/openstack-dev-forum-sydney-forum-etherpad-list | 09:28 | |
| ttx | looks like a stackoverflow thing built on top of email archives | 09:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | oh my, thats nuts | 09:29 |
| ttx | I'm intrigued | 09:30 |
| ttx | It's broken, it has dhellmann as #1. Ogh, wait | 09:31 |
| ttx | so it fails a bit in lists where you post statements rather than questions | 09:34 |
| ttx | Like the above link, where it assumes I'm posting a question. while I was posting a link | 09:34 |
| ttx | If you click on a tag it derives experts for that area | 09:36 |
| ttx | Anyway, enough yak shaving | 09:38 |
| ttx | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVH-forum-TC-sessions | 09:38 |
| ttx | Feel free to add your suggestions there ^ | 09:38 |
| ttx | so we coordinate duplicates and missing sessions before the session submission site opens | 09:39 |
| ttx | I added the two I said I would add. Will post link to ML now | 09:44 |
| cmurphy | yvh? not yvr? | 09:48 |
| ttx | oops | 09:49 |
| ttx | I blame cph | 09:50 |
| ttx | let me fix it | 09:50 |
| ttx | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-forum-TC-sessions | 09:51 |
| cdent | Are there dates set yet for the next round of TC elections? We talked in Dublin about making sure we contact people and encourage them. It's probably about time for that? | 09:54 |
| ttx | there is a change proposing dates up for review, let me find that | 09:55 |
| * cdent blinks and checks his gerrit settings | 09:55 | |
| ttx | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/551404/ | 09:55 |
| ttx | It's an election repo change | 09:55 |
| cdent | Yeah, I thought I was wathing that one, but apparently I stopped | 09:55 |
| ttx | it gets quite of noisy around ptl election time | 09:55 |
| ttx | s/of// | 09:56 |
| cdent | Hmm. So if the election is over on the 30th, that's only 20 days after the result before summit. There may be candidates (I was one) who will not otherwise be going to summit (because of weird company behavior[1]) who, if elected, will be incurring a cost for late tickets at that point. | 09:58 |
| cdent | [1] no presentation, can't go; not a ptl or tc, can't go. etc. | 09:59 |
| cdent | I was in this boat last year, but I ended up getting myself funded on the travel support plan (for api-sig stuff). | 09:59 |
| ttx | Election needs to happen around summit-3 week per the charter | 09:59 |
| cdent | Maybe we should consider changing that prior to Berlin? | 10:00 |
| ttx | cdent: you should have gotten a pass for free ticket due to PTG attendance, no? | 10:00 |
| cdent | that's the tiniest weeniest aspect of the cost | 10:01 |
| ttx | oh, I see what you mean | 10:01 |
| cdent | late plane tickets | 10:01 |
| ttx | yes i guess we could place it a bit earlier (still between PTG and Summit, but closer to PTG?) | 10:02 |
| cdent | even -5 or -6 would probably be an improvement | 10:02 |
| ttx | Arguably a bit late to change for this one, but we can have something ready before next round | 10:03 |
| cdent | Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I can propose something, if that's a reasonable way to go? | 10:04 |
| cdent | But back to the original thrust of my question: "We talked in Dublin about making sure we contact people and encourage them. It's probably about time for that?" Is that in people's heads? | 10:05 |
| cdent | brb | 10:06 |
| ttx | I thought we'd do that closer to the nomination period. We also said we would encourage everyone to reach out to people they would consider making good candidates | 10:08 |
| * ttx checks dates | 10:09 | |
| ttx | so nomination is likely to start April 10, I would wait one more week before reaching out | 10:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | too soon and folks forget I guess | 10:16 |
| cdent | I think that underestimates the amount of negotiation one has to do with oneself and one's employer | 10:17 |
| cmurphy | agreed ^ takes a while to talk yourself into it | 10:21 |
| ttx | Alright, let's do it then :) | 10:32 |
| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Add systemd roles to OpenStack-Ansible https://review.openstack.org/552866 | 11:03 |
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| ttx | TC stories added to https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/project/923 | 13:53 |
| smcginnis | Hmm. So in lp you can click on a "Bug affects me" link and get notifications of updates. Do we have any kind of equivalent in storyboard? | 13:55 |
| cdent | smcginnis: thanks for asking that question, I keep having it, and then forgetting that I have it | 13:56 |
| ttx | in Profile there is a "enable notification emails" checkbox | 13:56 |
| smcginnis | cdent: That same pattern happens to me almost daily. | 13:56 |
| cdent | We. Are. Professionals. | 13:56 |
| smcginnis | Oh right, once you log in it calls forget_all_history_so_you_can't_hit_back() | 13:57 |
| cdent | heh | 13:58 |
| smcginnis | OK, so once that's enabled, you can "star" a story to subscribe to it. I like it. | 13:58 |
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| * fungi catches up on office hours scrollback, remembers to count out the influence token loose change in his pocket and see if he still has enough for coffee | 14:17 | |
| fungi | i've previously had to ask nimeyo.com to disable their "feature" which allows their users to "post" messages to those forums (a.k.a. our mailing lists) | 14:21 |
| fungi | and to remove our logo from it | 14:21 |
| fungi | attractive nuisance | 14:21 |
| fungi | i think i also had to temporarily force unsubscribe them from some of our lists and block messages from their domain in the mta before they'd notice and respond to the messages i sent them politely requesting they cease | 14:25 |
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| cdent | well said fungi | 18:12 |
| * fungi suspects cdent is crossing the streams | 18:13 | |
| cdent | fungi: your email response on making ptg for all contributors | 18:14 |
| fungi | thanks! i figured that's what you meant | 18:14 |
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| cmurphy | ++ | 18:50 |
| cmurphy | "separate branding" would be :( | 18:51 |
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| cdent | totally :( | 18:54 |
| smcginnis | My only concern I've raised is I want to make sure there are distinct tracks or areas so the good things from the gathering and the good things from the ops meetup don't just get mashed together and lose some value. | 18:54 |
| cdent | smcginnis: also a valid concern | 18:54 |
| smcginnis | While still encouraging breaking down the artificial wall between the two. | 18:54 |
| smcginnis | I think even if there's just the chance at the end of the day to have casual conversations over drinks, that will be a big win. | 18:55 |
| cdent | does anyone recall where the patches propoesed per time period per project numbers that ttx tends to report every now and again live? | 18:56 |
| mugsie | cdent: I think ttx has local tooling that he runs to get them | 18:58 |
| cdent | thanks mugsie, for the time being I'm use old unreliable stackalytics | 18:58 |
| mugsie | gerrit *might* give some of the same detail, but I am not sure | 18:59 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, I had the impression it was some local form of https://github.com/openstack/third-party-ci-tools/tree/master/monitoring/lastcomment-scoreboard | 19:00 |
| dhellmann | cdent , mugsie : there are some tools in the reviewstats repo, but I don't know how up to date they are | 19:00 |
| cdent | dhellmann: thanks | 19:00 |
| cdent | stackalytics is working well enough for now, but I ... don't trust it | 19:00 |
| dhellmann | that's openstack-infra/reviewstats | 19:00 |
| cdent | or perhaps more accurately: don't want to trust it | 19:01 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, you could probably adapt https://github.com/openstack-infra/reviewstats/blob/master/reviewstats/cmd/reviewers.py | 19:01 |
| dhellmann | yeah, it doesn't seem to think anyone has sent email for the rocky cycle and I'm pretty sure that's wrong ;-) | 19:01 |
| cmurphy | we're well known for our quiet mailing list | 19:02 |
| smcginnis | hah | 19:02 |
| mugsie | I don't know, I have always found -dev to be a source of calm and inner peace :) | 19:12 |
| * dhellmann wants to join whatever ML mugsie is subscribed to | 19:13 | |
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| cdent | some weeks are easier than others for writing the tc report | 21:22 |
| smcginnis | cdent: Too much material? Not enough? Too hard to decide how opinionated you want it to be? | 21:24 |
| cdent | smcginnis: I'm not really sure. I think it has more to do with fatigue and thus the effort involved with re-experiencing things (so as to report them) is extra meh. | 21:32 |
| smcginnis | Ah, I can totally understand that. Sometimes discussions are best had and moved on from. | 21:33 |
| cdent | smcginnis: I suspect that force is especially strong this week because a lof the last week was comunicating about how communication often doesn't work and that when we communicate about that not working it often doesn't work and now I need to write about that, yet again | 21:38 |
| cdent | and repeat | 21:38 |
| cdent | s/lof/lot of/ | 21:39 |
| smcginnis | That's a lot of communicating. | 21:39 |
| cdent | which ought to be good, but if its not bringing about any change... | 21:39 |
| smcginnis | cdent: Maybe not a bad thing to include some of that feeling in your update. | 21:39 |
| cdent | indeed, I'll shall communicate about this communication about communication just now in my comunication :) | 21:40 |
| smcginnis | :) | 21:41 |
| fungi | the official stats gathering tools for affiliation diversity live in the governance repo. as for general contribution stats gathering there's a slippery slope where if you publish the algorithms you're using (or even focus on the sme metrics from one time to the next) there are people who will pollute your statistics by reverse-engineering and gaming them | 22:13 |
| fungi | so they become increasingly meaningless over time | 22:13 |
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| smcginnis | Very good point. | 22:15 |
| persia | Also, having algorithms in a known place gives insider advantage to folk who investigate such things | 22:16 |
| persia | In that someone who has once been active in OpenStack governance (or at least looked at the repo) is much more likely to be able to cause another to be perceived as a contributor than someone who just encountered www.openstack.org for the first time. | 22:17 |
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| cdent | well smcginnis, I may have gone off the rails a bit. doing light proofing and then will publish | 23:06 |
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