Monday, 2018-04-23

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ttxdhellmann: I agree we need some solution. Need to strike a balance between "combined status report from 60+ groups" and "nobody contributes"07:50
ttxIdeally every team should be given the opportunity to highlight stuff07:52
ttxalso the choice of tools will go a long way if we want people to read it. If we optimize it for seasoned email dwellers, that's the wrong group to optimize for (they read ML  posts quite efficiently)07:53
ttxso maybe something like Feedly team boards that let you build a shared collection of articles and then communicate the result in various ways. (I'm not saying we should adopt Feedly, but we should find somethign that lets us approximate that flexibility)07:56
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cdentmugsie: you often make me feel like I'm a negagtive ninny, and I like that about you11:46
mugsiewe need both sides :) someone needs to reign me in at times11:47
cdent(many sides)++11:48
mugsiemy viewpoint is coloured by our (designate's) incubation experience I suppose11:48
cdenthola dims12:06
dimshey ... just catching up on the thread about the campaign question from Doug12:09
mugsieIt is unfortunate that we have 11ish left of campaign time, with only one question12:15
cdentI was going to talk about that in my response but then decided that would be distracting.12:16
mugsieYeah, maybe a separate thread would be good12:17
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dhellmannttx: the more I've thought about it, the more I think the next thing to try is some RSS feed that pulls messages from the email archives. Contributing is then just linking to an existing thread.13:09
dhellmannotoh, that feels a bit hacky13:09
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dhellmanntc-members: question 2:
mugsiedhellmann is on fire :)13:28
cdentdhellmann: these are good questions but I really wish they were coming from someone other than the nebulous "us"13:28
mugsiethis one is a thinker13:28
dhellmanncdent : well, they're coming from *me*13:28
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dhellmannmugsie : yeah, it took me a while to get the phrasing right or I would have posted this first13:29
dhellmannI'm still not sure I have it right, but "tick, tock"13:29
cdentyes, and that's why they remain good, but I would feel more confident about the health of polis is it was someone not on the tc13:29
dhellmannwell, I would, too. but I'm not willing to let their inactivity mean we don't have any discussions at all.13:30
cdentyes, agreed13:30
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ttxdhellmann: language precision... in your question, is "reactive" supposed to be the opposite of "active" ?13:30
dhellmannmy sense is that we used to have much more ambitious-sounding campaign statements made in self-nominations. I'll have to re-read them this time, but while I did get a lot of sentiment about representation this time I don't remember much about "I want to do X"13:31
dhellmannttx: yes, I was trying to avoid "passive"13:31
ttxi.e. do you mean defensive/offensive, or "[re]active" in the sense of doing things13:31
dhellmannalso "proactive"13:31
dhellmannso, "going out there and doing thing and anticipating issues" vs. "dealing with things as they come up and aren't resolved in another way"13:32
dhellmannI can post clarifying that for everyone's benefit13:32
cdentdhellmann: I agree there was less ambition. I would argue that it the result of increased visibility that not only does the TC not really do all that much, neither are they empowered to do that much.13:32
cdentthus this question being a _really_ good one13:32
cdent(and why I'm going to have to think at some length before responding)13:32
* smcginnis finally finishes catching up on playback buffers13:37
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dhellmanntc-members: question 3:
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* cdent hopes dhellmann will answer his own questions at some point (because I'm curious)13:52
dhellmannI'm trying very hard to keep my own opinions out of the questions, but if you read carefully you'll probably still be able to tell13:53
dhellmannbut yeah, that's fair13:53
dhellmannafter the campaign season is over I'll do that13:53
dhellmannheh, "season"13:53
* cdent plants flowers13:54
dhellmanncdent : I used the quote about planting acorns from this page as the basis for my keynote at pytennesse this year:
cdentthat's a good quote13:55
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dhellmanntc-members: question 4:
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dhellmannand I think that's probably enough questions out of me for this morning14:08
cdentalso a good un14:08
smcginnisGood, I have enough of a backlog at this point. :)14:09
fungimugsie: what do you think if the related but adjutantless alternative topic i put in my last comment on ?14:10
fungier, thnik of14:10
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mugsiefungi: Yeah - I like that.14:19
mugsieI think if it got accepted, we could sift through recent applications, and see what got raised as issues, and why some projects got rejected / encouraged to withdraw the application14:20
fungiagreed. i tried to do it from (my fairly terrible) memory14:21
fungiat least enough to give some examples14:21
fungithough i also did my best to read back through the adjutant application and ensuing review comments to at least make sure all the ones raised there were hopefully represented14:22
jrolldoug's questions are great, I look forward to the responses14:23
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mugsiefungi: yeah - they cover most of the issues I remember recently.14:27
mugsieand it is definitely a good conversation to have14:27
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fungiand of course avoided mentioning anything we already cover explicitly in our new project application guidelines14:29
fungithough revisiting those might also be in the cards if we get time14:29
mugsieI think we might need a tardis :)14:30
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ttxDoug is keeping us busy I see14:42
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mugsieyeah :)14:49
zhipengthat was crazy :p14:51
dhellmanndon't feel pressured to be the first to answer14:52
* mugsie is taking his time :)14:52
zhipengnuh I just like to put a straightforward answer out :)14:52
dhellmannor even to answer before voting starts, although if you think you're going to need more time it might be good to say that so that folks don't count you as not participating in the conversation14:52
zhipengmore time I take, less I could write XD14:52
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jrollI hope most people wait until late to vote, so these conversations can be happy14:54
jrolls/happy/had, not sure what happened there14:54
mugsiewell, it would not be good to have them unhappy :P14:54
dhellmannjroll : I would like them to be both had and happy :-)14:55
jrollheh, true :)14:55
fungireminder... cfp for the ato conference in raleigh (october 21-23) ends tomorrow, in case anyone was thinking of submitting a proposal
fungii know some of us had discussed maybe trying to find each other at that conference if we end up there15:04
dhellmannunfortunately I'm going to have a conflict, so I don't expect to be there.15:06
dhellmannI was looking forward to it, esp. because it's relatively close.15:06
fungiyeah, i can actually drive to this one, which i can't say about many free software conferences15:07
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fungii can already tell i'm going to be spending the better part of my day reading tc candidate answers to dhellmann's questions (it's a good thing!)15:40
dhellmannI'm pretty pleased with the response rate so far15:41
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ttxDoug won't let me finish my day16:10
ttxI make less and less sense as time passes, but feel like I should answer before campaigning is over :)16:10
dhellmannttx: sorry, not sorry? :-)16:11
* ttx knows what Dr. Frankenstein felt like now16:18
ttxI think I outpaced the reply beast16:20
mugsieI am still in email debt I think16:24
mugsieyep, one more dhellmann question left :)16:24
ttxwe are clearly not used to thinking so much over so little time16:25
dhellmannyeah, sorry for dumping all of these at one time16:25
smcginnisThe Monday morning skeptic in me does also wonder what percentage of voters will read this versus the normal "oh, I recognize that name".16:26
dhellmannyeah, I'm trying to be optimistic16:26
ttxtrying to win the Doug vote16:26
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mugsiethis is a lot of email for a single vote alright :)16:47
dhellmannit's condorcet; I'm going to vote for everyone17:12
cdentI think we should be doing questions and discussions like this pretty much all the time.17:13
dhellmannthere's nothing like putting something at stake to encourage participation17:15
fungiyep, i would have liked these threads better if they happened outside the scope of the election, but it is what it is17:16
fungii suppose it encourages some people to weigh in when they wouldn't otherwise, because they're running for a seat on the tc... but by the same token i'd rather we were doing what it takes (next up, what is that?) to encourage those same people to participate in such discussions all the time17:17
dhellmannall of these questions are based on topics that have come up in TC discussions in one form or another (project reviews, office hours, in-person, etc.)17:20
dhellmannthey've definitely been circling around in my head for a while; maybe I need to be better about letting them out17:21
cdentwe all should do better about letting things circling in our heads out17:22
* dhellmann pictures daffy duck with stars circling his head17:24
mugsieI am actually picturing the sticker cdent has on the back of his laptop17:28
cdentI need to re-remember the title of that, as it applies here. One moment please.17:29
mugsiealso, sorry for the grenade I may have just lobbed into the ML17:29
cdent"Some Trends Want To Make Me Puke"
cdentIs that a grenade? I'm never clear on what makes for a grenade17:31
mugsieI have found when I ask a question like that it more often than not does turn into a grenade17:31
mugsiemaybe it is buried enough :)17:32
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cdentIt might also be that I'm grenade-blind17:33
dhellmannmugsie : the ceph question?17:47
dhellmannyeah, that's an interesting one17:47
dhellmannI guess I'm not sure where we intend to stop with "constellations" before they come "deployment architecture diagrams"17:48
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dhellmannI originally thought we only meant to use them for folks to understand how our official components interact17:48
mugsieYeah - I think that will come naturally as they get proposed17:49
dhellmannbut they weren't my idea and I wasn't driving them so I'm not sure if I had a more limited vision for what they were17:49
mugsieI think I am basing off a discussion we had in Sydney? When we were looking at ttx's map17:49
dhellmannas I think I said when the whole tag system was originally proposed, there's absolutely nothing preventing anyone from creating a set of documentation like we would expect a "product manager" to create, except that we don't have a single product manager17:50
mugsiewell, that is the elephant in the room, isn't it?17:50
dhellmannok, I'm remembering back to when wendar proposed them at a meeting in boston17:50
dhellmannwe have *many* product managers, creating what their companies view of a product is17:50
* cdent remembers to tell the next project manager he sees that they are an elephant17:50
mugsiea white elephant? :P17:51
dhellmannI suspect openstack is the elephant and the PMs are the blind men17:51
* mugsie just keeps digging the hole 17:51
mugsieyeah - the PWG started out interestingly, but seemed to peter out17:52
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fungii think the naive initial "constellations" implementation was just going to be masking out unrelated components on the project map or something along those lines18:13
fungi"if you're doing X you need this set of projects installed/running..."18:14
fungiwhich could later be followed up with example configuration sets18:14
dhellmannyeah, I know sdague had proposed having separate installation guides and all sorts of other variations on things but I never saw us having the people to do that18:17
cdentI think the idealized form in the vision is a useful way to identify resourcing or priority gaps that it would be nice to fill. In this case spending more time on what some might call marketing is probably important.18:19
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dhellmannmaybe next time around we should consider the "campaigning" period to be open when we start accepting self-nominations22:35
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funginot a bad idea23:17
fungidiablo_rojo_: persia: tonyb: ^23:17
fungino reason these sorts of discussions can't happen earlier (even before nominations open for that matter)23:18
fungithat said, it still helps the election officials to have some breathing room between close of nominations and opening of the polls23:19
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diablo_rojo_dhellmann, that works for me. But yes, like fungi said- breathing room between end of nominations and start of polling is ideal as well. Could consider campaigning to start maybe halfway through nominations and to continue for a few days after before beginning polling.23:49
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